Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Malcolm, Keep coming back...it works if you work it! Scott With God, all things are possible. - Mark 10:27 --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Malcolm s...@asis.com wrote: From: Malcolm s...@asis.com Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating To: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 8:48 PM Hi Faith, for that you can take a form - niacinamide, often labeled as non-flush niacin. Works for me and regular niacin gives me intense skin prickles. Take care, Malcolm On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 21:00 -0400, Faith Gagne wrote: One has to be careful of the 'flush'. Not everyone can take niacin. Faith g. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Hi Malcolm. I am leery of niacin for reasons other than just flushing. I would check with my doctor before taking it. One needs a knowledgable well-rounded doctor. FYI: Adverse Niacin Side Effects Some of the niacin side affects reported most especially for non-flush products and high doses (higher than the threshold amount) of the vitamin include gastrointestinal symptoms such as vomiting, nausea, flatulence, bloating and diarrhea as well as sudden decrease in blood pressure. Other (Rare) Side Effects of Niacin There are isolated cases where other niacin side effects occur. These rare side effects range from simple dryness and scaliness of the skin, excessive pigmentation, to liver disorder, blurred vision, activation of the peptic ulcer, and jaundice. Hi Faith, for that you can take a form - niacinamide, often labeled as non-flush niacin. Works for me and regular niacin gives me intense skin prickles. Take care, Malcolm -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Thanks, Malcolm. Years ago I tried niacin and experienced a good deal of physical discomfort, so I will probably try a small amount of niacinamide and see what happens. Cheers, indi On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:48:34 -0700 Malcolm s...@asis.com wrote: Hi Faith, for that you can take a form - niacinamide, often labeled as non-flush niacin. Works for me and regular niacin gives me intense skin prickles. Take care, Malcolm On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 21:00 -0400, Faith Gagne wrote: One has to be careful of the 'flush'. Not everyone can take niacin. Faith g. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Hi Faith, thanks for that, but Durn! is nothing truly safe? grin, as Mike says I do think people vary a great deal in their reactions to this -n- that, which is why medicine and big pharma love the sledgehammer approach VE haff vays to Make you happy ummm, . . . take care, M. On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:15 -0400, Faith Gagne wrote: Hi Malcolm. I am leery of niacin for reasons other than just flushing. I would check with my doctor before taking it. One needs a knowledgable well-rounded doctor. FYI: Adverse Niacin Side Effects Some of the niacin side affects reported most especially for non-flush products and high doses (higher than the threshold amount) of the vitamin include gastrointestinal symptoms such as vomiting, nausea, flatulence, bloating and diarrhea as well as sudden decrease in blood pressure. Other (Rare) Side Effects of Niacin There are isolated cases where other niacin side effects occur. These rare side effects range from simple dryness and scaliness of the skin, excessive pigmentation, to liver disorder, blurred vision, activation of the peptic ulcer, and jaundice. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Niacin needs to be started with a low dose and acclimated to as you increase dosage. An example woud be 50mg to start and build up to a couple of grams. It was a college prank to give someone a relatively stiff dose for the reaction. You will actually think you're going to die. For cryin' out loud, start your experiments with a little research and caution. Chuck Warranty and guarantee clauses are voided by payment of the invoice On 10/24/2008 11:42:53 AM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: Thanks, Malcolm. Years ago I tried niacin and experienced a good deal of physical discomfort, so I will probably try a small amount of niacinamide and see what happens. Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:11:21 -0400 cking...@nycap.rr.com wrote: For cryin' out loud, start your experiments with a little research and caution. I have no plan to do otherwise. As I said originally, *years* ago, I had an uncomfortable experience. It wouldn't go that way today. But I appreciate the concern. :) Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating Niacn
Hi Everyone, I found a book at the Half-Price book store, called, ALL ABOUT RADATION, which had a gread deal of data about niacin. According to the book, the flush you get from the niacin is from the amount of radation your body has absorbed. The best way to take niacin is to start off with low doses and stay with that dose until you stop flushing. Then once you have stopped flushing at that dosage, you take a higher dose start i.e. 50mgs then up it to 100mg an stay with that until you stop flushing then up the dose, and so on and so on untill you have gotten to 1000mgs of niacin. Then you come down in doses just as you went up. Then take 100mg as a daily dose thereafter. I have tried this myself and it worked for me. Hugs, Gerrie Brooks Bradley recently posted a CS/DMSO/Glycerin recipe effective against MRSA which should work on the cellulitis. Circulation can be much improved using large doses of Niacin, which is relatively inexpensive. Recently, Dave posted about this and his success using Niacin for improving circulation. Thank you Dan, I will have to look into that. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:25:18 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: On Oct 22, 2008, at 7:20 PM, indi wrote: I time mine manually (and stir it manually) as well. 14 gauge . silver wire electrodes, and a ventec neon sign power transformer, which is plugged into a 3 amp variac (I prefer to crank up the voltage slowly just in case anything goes wrong). I do check it often of course, and shut it down if it gets too hot or if I see too much condensation forming. I have to periodically adjust the position of the upper electrode, to avoid arcing. The lower electrode is 4 feet of the same silver wire coiled in the bottom of the jar. It's all laughably crude, but I do get a brew that is working for me in spite of that. So far I do not have to clean my electrodes at all, which I think may be a good sign that I am avoiding any arcing or corona discharge. Cheers, indi How long does it take to do the whole 2 gallons? I am assuming you do a big batch, with 4 ft of wire coiled. Still experimenting with that. I initially followed the two sessions of three hours on, three off directions I'd read, but was unsatisfied and so began experimenting. It seems seven to eight hours straight on works with the two gallon batch. My most recent batch seems weak, which surprised me because I left it on for seven to eight hours at a time over three days. But I'm pretty sure there is a point of diminishing returns, and more will not equal stronger. My highly unscientific periodic taste test seemed to indicate that the brew passed its peak and actually got weaker sometime during the second day. So I'm back to a seven to eight hours brew time for two gallons. I will start a new one tomorrow, but plan to do just one gallon at a time for a change. My back is giving me trouble, so I'm not going to try hoisting two gallons at this time -- have to be able to chop and carry firewood (among other chores), so I need to be careful. In case you were wondering why I make so much, I use it topically quite a bit (CS compresses stop the painful cellulitis I get in my ankle and lower leg) and also share it with three other people -- one of whom has a problem with a recurring urinary tract infection that seems to be vanquished by using the brew (more anecdotal evidence). It stopped my dog's eye infection, too (I didn't put it in his eye though, just had him drink some). Next year I want to brew enough to use in my gardens. And about what do think the final PPM ends up being? I have absolutely no idea. I am using 10 gauge wire, I start fresh each time, and it takes about 5 hours to get a quart of around 10 ppm. I keep the amps low with the pot. to keep the process slow and constant. It is slow anyway, so with the current controlled I don't have to worry about walking away and returning to mud(or silver sludge). I have never seen it go to sludge. I have read that LVDC yields a lot more sediment, though. I get no visible sediment in mine so far. That is the beauty of all this, even with crude simple stuff, it still works. It's pretty fascinating, that's for sure. Without the unique set of circumstances which compelled me to try this, I'd have never believed it. In fact, when I first read of it, I though everyone doing this was stark raving mad. Now either I know better, or I've tapped into the power of insanity myself. :D Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
I will start a new one tomorrow, but plan to do just one gallon at a time for a change. My back is giving me trouble, so I'm not going to try hoisting two gallons at this time -- have to be able to chop and carry firewood (among other chores), so I need to be careful. In case you were wondering why I make so much, I use it topically quite a bit (CS compresses stop the painful cellulitis I get in my ankle and lower leg) and also share it with three other people -- one of whom has a problem with a recurring urinary tract infection that seems to be vanquished by using the brew (more anecdotal evidence). It stopped my dog's eye infection, too (I didn't put it in his eye though, just had him drink some). Next year I want to brew enough to use in my gardens. Dear Indi: I am fascinated that you use CS to stop the pain of cellulitis because I actually did not know that cellulitis hurts. Do you have any idea why the urinary tract infection recurs? Faith G. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:59:36 -0400 Faith Gagne jitte...@gis.net wrote: Dear Indi: I am fascinated that you use CS to stop the pain of cellulitis because I actually did not know that cellulitis hurts. Cellulitis is *very* painful (often people confuse it with cellulite, but it's a totally different thing). I nearly lost my leg to it before I started CS. In my case, it is caused by the MRSA and poor circulation. Do you have any idea why the urinary tract infection recurs? Faith G. She has had this problem for years, the doctors say she has a defect in her urethra which causes bacteria to accumulate and want to operate on it (the roto rooter procedure, as she calls it). Before the CS, she had to use antibiotics nearly every other month. She would rather not have any surgery. Unfortunately, she is not very good at regulating her diet or at using CS in small amounts regularly. She's the kind of person who takes it only when she has symptoms she cannot ignore. Also, she has a terrible habit of procrastinating using the bathroom. I have given up trying to advise her about these things, as she will just see it as nagging. But at least now she doesn't need the antibiotics anymore. People will do what people will do... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Cellulitis is *very* painful (often people confuse it with cellulite, but it's a totally different thing). I nearly lost my leg to it before I started CS. In my case, it is caused by the MRSA and poor circulation. Do you have any idea why the urinary tract infection recurs? Faith G. She has had this problem for years, the doctors say she has a defect in her urethra which causes bacteria to accumulate and want to operate on it (the roto rooter procedure, as she calls it). Before the CS, she had to use antibiotics nearly every other month. She would rather not have any surgery. Unfortunately, she is not very good at regulating her diet or at using CS in small amounts regularly. She's the kind of person who takes it only when she has symptoms she cannot ignore. Also, she has a terrible habit of procrastinating using the bathroom. I have given up trying to advise her about these things, as she will just see it as nagging. But at least now she doesn't need the antibiotics anymore. People will do what people will do... Cheers, indi I am sorry to hear about the cellulitis. Yes, I was questioning cellulite because I had no idea. Re: urethra problem: I would probably agree to the surgery. Sounds like an end to the misery, plus I trust my doctor (s). I'm lucky. Faith G. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:00:03 -0400 Faith Gagne jitte...@gis.net wrote: I am sorry to hear about the cellulitis. Yes, I was questioning cellulite because I had no idea. Thanks. It's a lot better than it was before CS, but it does still slow me down a bit. Time on my feet is still limited, but before CS I was pretty much bed-ridden for months at a time. I guess the circulatory issues are hereditary. I thought I'd avoid that by staying slim (my whole family has circulatory issues, and they're all quite large), but in spite of successfully avoiding obesity I still seem to share their other problems. In fact, I even have a leaky heart valve and a murmur now, just like my parents and grandparents had at my age. Seems we all get strong heads and weak cardio-vascular systems. Makes me kind of glad I didn't reproduce. Re: urethra problem: I would probably agree to the surgery. Sounds like an end to the misery, plus I trust my doctor (s). I'm lucky. Faith G. Well, I strongly suspect that if she would just drink enough water, go promptly to the bathroom when she should, maybe cut down on the white sugar and white flour, and use a small amount of CS semi-daily, she'd be fine. But since I never could get her to try, it's impossible to know for sure... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
For years I had a click murmur which became very loud, and which was eventually corrected by surgery at Brigham and Women's in Boston. The surgery was a single by-pass plus an aortic valve replacement. For over a year after the surgery I thought my heart was jumping out of my chest because the new valve was so much stronger than my old one. It took some getting used to. Sorry about your cellulitis. Best wishes, Faith G. - Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:17 PM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:00:03 -0400 Faith Gagne jitte...@gis.net wrote: I am sorry to hear about the cellulitis. Yes, I was questioning cellulite because I had no idea. Thanks. It's a lot better than it was before CS, but it does still slow me down a bit. Time on my feet is still limited, but before CS I was pretty much bed-ridden for months at a time. I guess the circulatory issues are hereditary. I thought I'd avoid that by staying slim (my whole family has circulatory issues, and they're all quite large), but in spite of successfully avoiding obesity I still seem to share their other problems. In fact, I even have a leaky heart valve and a murmur now, just like my parents and grandparents had at my age. Seems we all get strong heads and weak cardio-vascular systems. Makes me kind of glad I didn't reproduce. Re: urethra problem: I would probably agree to the surgery. Sounds like an end to the misery, plus I trust my doctor (s). I'm lucky. Faith G. Well, I strongly suspect that if she would just drink enough water, go promptly to the bathroom when she should, maybe cut down on the white sugar and white flour, and use a small amount of CS semi-daily, she'd be fine. But since I never could get her to try, it's impossible to know for sure... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Brooks Bradley recently posted a CS/DMSO/Glycerin recipe effective against MRSA which should work on the cellulitis. Circulation can be much improved using large doses of Niacin, which is relatively inexpensive. Recently, Dave posted about this and his success using Niacin for improving circulation. Dan -Original Message- From: indi [mailto:indi.sha...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:18 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:00:03 -0400 Faith Gagne jitte...@gis.net wrote: I am sorry to hear about the cellulitis. Yes, I was questioning cellulite because I had no idea. Thanks. It's a lot better than it was before CS, but it does still slow me down a bit. Time on my feet is still limited, but before CS I was pretty much bed-ridden for months at a time. I guess the circulatory issues are hereditary. I thought I'd avoid that by staying slim (my whole family has circulatory issues, and they're all quite large), but in spite of successfully avoiding obesity I still seem to share their other problems. In fact, I even have a leaky heart valve and a murmur now, just like my parents and grandparents had at my age. Seems we all get strong heads and weak cardio-vascular systems. Makes me kind of glad I didn't reproduce. Re: urethra problem: I would probably agree to the surgery. Sounds like an end to the misery, plus I trust my doctor (s). I'm lucky. Faith G. Well, I strongly suspect that if she would just drink enough water, go promptly to the bathroom when she should, maybe cut down on the white sugar and white flour, and use a small amount of CS semi-daily, she'd be fine. But since I never could get her to try, it's impossible to know for sure... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:07:13 -0500 Dan Nave dan.n...@nilfisk-advance.com wrote: Brooks Bradley recently posted a CS/DMSO/Glycerin recipe effective against MRSA which should work on the cellulitis. Circulation can be much improved using large doses of Niacin, which is relatively inexpensive. Recently, Dave posted about this and his success using Niacin for improving circulation. Thank you Dan, I will have to look into that. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
One has to be careful of the 'flush'. Not everyone can take niacin. Faith g. - Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:42 PM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:07:13 -0500 Dan Nave dan.n...@nilfisk-advance.com wrote: Brooks Bradley recently posted a CS/DMSO/Glycerin recipe effective against MRSA which should work on the cellulitis. Circulation can be much improved using large doses of Niacin, which is relatively inexpensive. Recently, Dave posted about this and his success using Niacin for improving circulation. Thank you Dan, I will have to look into that. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Hi Faith, for that you can take a form - niacinamide, often labeled as non-flush niacin. Works for me and regular niacin gives me intense skin prickles. Take care, Malcolm On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 21:00 -0400, Faith Gagne wrote: One has to be careful of the 'flush'. Not everyone can take niacin. Faith g. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
I have definitely proved the one about leaching from the plastic Kathryn. If I buy new plastic (PET) bottles, I have to soak for three days at least in distilled water, otherwise, the CS goes yellow. After soaking I test the DW and it reads at least 025 whereas before I put it in the new bottle, it read 000. After such a 'seasoning,' the CS stays clear. Just my two pence worth. dee Clayton Family wrote: Perhaps I was. Are you also thinking of the possible volatiles coming from the plastic of the bottles, then; and you definitely said something about air- which is basically soup anyway, not easy to figure out what is there either. These sort of interactions (silver ions, volatiles and air) might be in the ppb or ppt, so not easy to pick out of the soup. There is probably equipment somewhere (I am thinking of the EPA) that can measure something like that. Our ability to measure tiny amounts has way outstripped our knowledge of how it interacts in the body in such small amounts. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
I am not ignoring your point. Degrees of accuracy in my experience, range from good enough to several decimal places in a calculation. It all depends on what one is interested in looking at. In school I had to write up error calculations that ranged several pages of math starting from my experiment, then doing the statistical analysis of the data, using the error ranges of the equipment used, etc. It can be a very precise and definite number, usually a range. The water we get here for laboratory use (in the USA) is pretty darn good, otherwise the labs would not be able to use it, their experiments would not work. This is not so true in other countries. Dee has found, for example, that the distilled water available to her is not the same quality. Ours is packaged in different bottles, for one. However, others more knowledgable than I am about HV have said that the high voltage process can introduce many other compounds into the solution, and requires more controls to circumvent that, like Marshall mentioned about the oxides of nitrogen (which convert to silver salts in the solution, which can turn one grey). So your concerns might be valid for that situation. I do only the low voltage ( I have gotten into enough trouble fooling around with low voltage electricity, though I do own a transformer, only 5000 volts). With the low voltage process, it does take a while to cook up a batch, but it is much easier for me to deal with. There is very little concern with the atmospheric gasses since the voltage potential is so low for the silver. And I am very aware of the problem of indoor pollution; I am extremely sensitive to many VOC's esp in the indoor environment. My environment happen to be better than most (at least I hope so, since my health depends on it), and it has taken alot of work to get it this good; takes some to keep it there. If you are introducing high voltage, and the possibility of silver salts or compounds, it sounds like a good thing to be worrying about. With low voltage, not so much. I was assuming you were making low voltage, since it is most common around here. Best Wishes, Kathryn On Oct 21, 2008, at 7:59 PM, indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:35:55 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: I am having a hard time believing that you are such a skeptic that you do not even believe the pure distilled water sold for laboratory use is not really pure water. But maybe that is what you are saying. No, what I said was exactly this, but you appear to be completely ignoring it: There are degrees of accuracy, of course, with absolute being unavailable (and Ode has pointed this out before). However, my close enough standard requires at least accounting for all elements present as a base. Otherwise, we wind up with more questions than answers, don't you agree? One rather obvious example is that many people have been shocked to learn the types of indoor pollutants their homes contain -- how can we be sure there is nothing but pure air in the environment in which we operate? From carpets, upholstery, and wall coverings that release various gasses, to radon pollution, it's a huge question mark whenever we do work like this in the home. When you unseal a container at home, what are you exposing it to? And what is the effect? And then we supply electrical current, which is an excellent catalyst, LOL... Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit neurotic, but I'm also quite right about this. I just want to know what *is* in that solution. Otherwise, what good is an EC meter reading? Until I can determine that, I just don't see much value in either guessing or calculating PPM, because the question PPM of what? has not been answered. This is not to say that I think anyone is making an inferior solution, merely that I want to know more. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Thanks, Kathryn. I'm glad to hear you are employing careful controls. You are definitely correct that the HVAC model I'm using would put me at greater risk of introducing undesirable foreign elements into the mix. Another good reason for my concerns about accuracy. Also, my current generator is quite a crude homemade one. Where do you buy your lab quality DW? Cheers, indi On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:02:18 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: I am not ignoring your point. Degrees of accuracy in my experience, range from good enough to several decimal places in a calculation. It all depends on what one is interested in looking at. In school I had to write up error calculations that ranged several pages of math starting from my experiment, then doing the statistical analysis of the data, using the error ranges of the equipment used, etc. It can be a very precise and definite number, usually a range. The water we get here for laboratory use (in the USA) is pretty darn good, otherwise the labs would not be able to use it, their experiments would not work. This is not so true in other countries. Dee has found, for example, that the distilled water available to her is not the same quality. Ours is packaged in different bottles, for one. However, others more knowledgable than I am about HV have said that the high voltage process can introduce many other compounds into the solution, and requires more controls to circumvent that, like Marshall mentioned about the oxides of nitrogen (which convert to silver salts in the solution, which can turn one grey). So your concerns might be valid for that situation. I do only the low voltage ( I have gotten into enough trouble fooling around with low voltage electricity, though I do own a transformer, only 5000 volts). With the low voltage process, it does take a while to cook up a batch, but it is much easier for me to deal with. There is very little concern with the atmospheric gasses since the voltage potential is so low for the silver. And I am very aware of the problem of indoor pollution; I am extremely sensitive to many VOC's esp in the indoor environment. My environment happen to be better than most (at least I hope so, since my health depends on it), and it has taken alot of work to get it this good; takes some to keep it there. If you are introducing high voltage, and the possibility of silver salts or compounds, it sounds like a good thing to be worrying about. With low voltage, not so much. I was assuming you were making low voltage, since it is most common around here. Best Wishes, Kathryn On Oct 21, 2008, at 7:59 PM, indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:35:55 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: I am having a hard time believing that you are such a skeptic that you do not even believe the pure distilled water sold for laboratory use is not really pure water. But maybe that is what you are saying. No, what I said was exactly this, but you appear to be completely ignoring it: There are degrees of accuracy, of course, with absolute being unavailable (and Ode has pointed this out before). However, my close enough standard requires at least accounting for all elements present as a base. Otherwise, we wind up with more questions than answers, don't you agree? One rather obvious example is that many people have been shocked to learn the types of indoor pollutants their homes contain -- how can we be sure there is nothing but pure air in the environment in which we operate? From carpets, upholstery, and wall coverings that release various gasses, to radon pollution, it's a huge question mark whenever we do work like this in the home. When you unseal a container at home, what are you exposing it to? And what is the effect? And then we supply electrical current, which is an excellent catalyst, LOL... Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit neurotic, but I'm also quite right about this. I just want to know what *is* in that solution. Otherwise, what good is an EC meter reading? Until I can determine that, I just don't see much value in either guessing or calculating PPM, because the question PPM of what? has not been answered. This is not to say that I think anyone is making an inferior solution, merely that I want to know more. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
It is funny, I can get it at the grocery store. It is one specific brand, and says on the label suitable for laboratory use. Before I would believe that, however, I felt I needed to round up every single different brand of distilled water I could find, and test all of them using the Com 100 EC meter. Surprisingly, some of the brands registered at 50 uS (micro siemans, or use to be micro Mohs), which is way too high for me to even consider using it, except in an emergency, maybe I would think about it, still 50 uS is better than my tap water, which has lots of minerals in it. None of the others was as good, and I still test each gallon before I use it, just out of habit. It is always under 1.5 uS, and occassionally zero. After I pour some out and use to make cs, the rest in the gallon increases in conductivity, which is the air going into solution in it. Still, I use it anyway. I can get very particular, but there is also the limit of practicality. In practice, it does not make so much of a diff for me, but that is with low volts. If I felt it was a bigger deal, I might just make a gallon at a time, instead of a quart. I have heard that in different parts of the country, the best distilled water varies by brand (depends on the equipment used, source water, and probably other factors too). Some areas say Walgreens brand is good, but it is not in this area. I have found that Glenwood Springs distilled water is the best brand around here. How are you keeping the air out of your system? My system is pretty rudimentary too, it is silver wire (.9992) batteries, wires, and a potentiometer ( or one could use a resistor). No timer or anything, though that would be easier. Kathryn On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:25 AM, indi wrote: Thanks, Kathryn. I'm glad to hear you are employing careful controls. You are definitely correct that the HVAC model I'm using would put me at greater risk of introducing undesirable foreign elements into the mix. Another good reason for my concerns about accuracy. Also, my current generator is quite a crude homemade one. Where do you buy your lab quality DW? Cheers, indi On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:02:18 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: I am not ignoring your point. Degrees of accuracy in my experience, range from good enough to several decimal places in a calculation. It all depends on what one is interested in looking at. In school I had to write up error calculations that ranged several pages of math sta -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
Evening Kathryn, At 01:34 PM 10/22/2008, you wrote: It is funny, I can get it at the grocery store. It is one specific brand, and says on the label suitable for laboratory use. I think some labs, if not most, use double distilled water. Likely they have selected brands or sources, or make it. My scientist friend gave me some but I did not use it for CS, I used it for experiments. We wanted our solutions to be as pure as possible. me to even consider using it, except in an emergency, maybe I would think about it, still 50 uS is better than my tap water, which has lots of minerals in it. Sounds like much trouble. it might be less to make it. My system is pretty rudimentary too, it is silver wire (.9992) batteries, wires, and a potentiometer ( or one could use a resistor). No timer or anything, though that would be easier. No LED ? They are great and one resistor in the circuit. I just use a stop watch. One has to decide if they want to be manual or automatic. With a current meter, a timer, hands, and a brain, I guess that may be semi automatic. Wayne == -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:34:37 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: It is funny, I can get it at the grocery store. It is one specific brand, and says on the label suitable for laboratory use. Before I would believe that, however, I felt I needed to round up every single different brand of distilled water I could find, and test all of them using the Com 100 EC meter. Surprisingly, some of the brands registered at 50 uS (micro siemans, or use to be micro Mohs), which is way too high for me to even consider using it, except in an emergency, maybe I would think about it, still 50 uS is better than my tap water, which has lots of minerals in it. None of the others was as good, and I still test each gallon before I use it, just out of habit. It is always under 1.5 uS, and occassionally zero. After I pour some out and use to make cs, the rest in the gallon increases in conductivity, which is the air going into solution in it. Still, I use it anyway. I can get very particular, but there is also the limit of practicality. In practice, it does not make so much of a diff for me, but that is with low volts. If I felt it was a bigger deal, I might just make a gallon at a time, instead of a quart. I have heard that in different parts of the country, the best distilled water varies by brand (depends on the equipment used, source water, and probably other factors too). Some areas say Walgreens brand is good, but it is not in this area. I have found that Glenwood Springs distilled water is the best brand around here. I will have to look for that one. I need to decide what to do about DW, as I really dislike going in to town to shop any more than I have to, and the supermarket I go to has an inconsistent selection (and I really prefer to shop just twice per month). Probably I will either end up getting it delivered or just build a little distillery myself. But currently, I just use whichever brand they have (often it's that Crystal Springs brand distilled, which is distilled, filtered, and deionized). How are you keeping the air out of your system? I'm not. My brew chamber is an Anchor-Hocking 2 gallon glass jar with a glass lid. It's inside a wooden box (the front side opens on a piano hinge) which is inside my bedroom closet, so that helps at least minimize air circulation around it, but of course that's not much of a precaution. My system is pretty rudimentary too, it is silver wire (.9992) batteries, wires, and a potentiometer ( or one could use a resistor). No timer or anything, though that would be easier. I time mine manually (and stir it manually) as well. 14 gauge . silver wire electrodes, and a ventec neon sign power transformer, which is plugged into a 3 amp variac (I prefer to crank up the voltage slowly just in case anything goes wrong). I do check it often of course, and shut it down if it gets too hot or if I see too much condensation forming. I have to periodically adjust the position of the upper electrode, to avoid arcing. The lower electrode is 4 feet of the same silver wire coiled in the bottom of the jar. It's all laughably crude, but I do get a brew that is working for me in spite of that. So far I do not have to clean my electrodes at all, which I think may be a good sign that I am avoiding any arcing or corona discharge. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Oct 22, 2008, at 7:20 PM, indi wrote: I time mine manually (and stir it manually) as well. 14 gauge . silver wire electrodes, and a ventec neon sign power transformer, which is plugged into a 3 amp variac (I prefer to crank up the voltage slowly just in case anything goes wrong). I do check it often of course, and shut it down if it gets too hot or if I see too much condensation forming. I have to periodically adjust the position of the upper electrode, to avoid arcing. The lower electrode is 4 feet of the same silver wire coiled in the bottom of the jar. It's all laughably crude, but I do get a brew that is working for me in spite of that. So far I do not have to clean my electrodes at all, which I think may be a good sign that I am avoiding any arcing or corona discharge. Cheers, indi How long does it take to do the whole 2 gallons? I am assuming you do a big batch, with 4 ft of wire coiled. And about what do think the final PPM ends up being? I am using 10 gauge wire, I start fresh each time, and it takes about 5 hours to get a quart of around 10 ppm. I keep the amps low with the pot. to keep the process slow and constant. It is slow anyway, so with the current controlled I don't have to worry about walking away and returning to mud(or silver sludge). That is the beauty of all this, even with crude simple stuff, it still works. Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
I once asked an expert in measurements a question about a related topic. His reply included the phrase spurious accuracy as a term used in his field. I think it boils down to question below. At some point, it's just not important. On Saturday, Oct 18, 2008, at 23:50 Asia/Tokyo, Wayne Fugitt wrote: The real important question, is, ... What difference does it make ? -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Spurious defined: Of false or erroneously attributed origin. Also, forged: of a deceitful nature or quality. So spurious accuracy means erroneous or deceitful. Faith G. - Original Message - From: Jonathan B. Britten jbrit...@cc.nakamura-u.ac.jp To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:37 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing I once asked an expert in measurements a question about a related topic. His reply included the phrase spurious accuracy as a term used in his field. I think it boils down to question below. At some point, it's just not important. On Saturday, Oct 18, 2008, at 23:50 Asia/Tokyo, Wayne Fugitt wrote: The real important question, is, ... What difference does it make ? -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Well I hope it never happens because 'they' will find a way of charging us for it and regulating etc., so 'they' can somehow make money out of it. Either that, or 'they' will stop us using it altogether like the poor bloke with the Rife machine! You must be a tough nut to crack is all I can say. Surely if you are sick one minute, then - take CS - then you are well, the logical conclusion would be that the CS made you well. No brainer as far as I can see. dee indi wrote: I presume CS is helping get well, but if the only proof I have is that I am getting well, then there is much more to be discovered before I can have it witnessed, written up, and submitted it to the medical journals. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
with you all the way Jonathan! dee Jonathan B. Britten wrote: I once asked an expert in measurements a question about a related topic. His reply included the phrase spurious accuracy as a term used in his field. I think it boils down to question below. At some point, it's just not important. On Saturday, Oct 18, 2008, at 23:50 Asia/Tokyo, Wayne Fugitt wrote: The real important question, is, ... What difference does it make ? -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSMeasuring or Guessing
No way! Just as pig headed and arrogant for sure, but Mike Monet knew something about science, scientific method, and logic... Dan -Original Message- From: cking...@nycap.rr.com [mailto:cking...@nycap.rr.com] Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 5:56 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Hmmm... Is indi in reality Mike Monet? Sounds like him. Remember? Chuck de ja fu - The feeling that somewhere, somehow you've been hit in the head like this before. On 10/20/2008 12:39:02 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Oct 20, 2008, at 2:55 PM, indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:13:43 -0500 Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com wrote: How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? I am stuck with guessing, at present -- like everyone else here. However, that is completely beside the point I was trying to make. The absence of hard data does not magically convert anecdotal evidence into data. Some people certainly have been a bit touchy about that, but this is not supposed to be an emotional issue -- it's a simple discussion of what is known versus what is presumed, a distinction I originally *presumed* we all were qualified to make (I do know better now, LOL). The question is, do you calculate the ppm? You don't have to guess much, and if you prefer, you can do the calculations for error resolution too, then you know exactly how much guessing you are doing, or as they say, parameters of error fall within plus or minus X percent . If X percent is low, it is not much of a guess, if it is high, then whoa, look out. Might as well throw mud at the wall. Faradays Law describes the electrolysis very well. Distilled water for laboratory use is the good enough for labs, so it is by definition good enough for us. I do not take that for granted, I check the conductivity of the water first anyway. Distilled water for lab use should have nothing else in it except water, and it should not conduct any electricity, so the EC reading should be zero. Mine usually is not zero, but very close, within a few parts per billion. After it sits for a while, the EC reading climbs a little, as the distilled water absorbs some gases from the air. It is a very sensitive measurement for my type of purpose. My own experiments show that for me, consistently, the amount of silver deposited in the water during electrolysis as calculated by Faraday's Law is the same as the EC reading taken immediately in the water as it is working. All the hard science I learned is based on first observation, then explored via calculations and experimentation. We are all of us here doing our own science that is as good or better than most of what passes in the medical field, what with all the abuses that occur there. I am glad to hear that you are feeling benefit from your experiments. Best Wishes, Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSMeasuring or Guessing ( A New Formula )
Morning Kathryn, At 09:01 AM 10/21/2008, you wrote: You got my attentions this morning. grin I am stuck with guessing, at present -- like everyone else here. Some people certainly have been a bit touchy about that, but this is not supposed to be an emotional issue -- it's a simple you are doing, or as they say, parameters of error fall within plus or minus X percent . If X percent is low, it is not much of a guess, if it is high, then whoa, look out. Might as well throw mud at the wall. OK. The new Formula will tell us.. The percent Guessing The percent Facts The percent Theory The percent Accuracy in everything we do Finally, It would tell us What percent Idiot we are What percent Genius we are What would you pay for that ? We would become so engrossed in this we would all forget how to make CS ! I have always said, It you can do it with a pencil and pad, I can write a program to do it. Of course Marshall can too, as well as many others. Once I became so tired of doing ppm calculations, I wrote a program to do it. Then I wrote one, Backwards ppm Calculations. Can't remember why I did that and what all it did. As I have said, People Worry too much. Me included. Never even been concerned about the ppm of my CS. When it kills wasps, bees, snakes, alligators, and little critters, what else could I want ? Wayne Modern Thinking Primitive Logic -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:39 AM, indi wrote: Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. There has been quite a bit of research by various universities. A compelling case that could be taken seriously by whom? is the question. There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing ( A New Formula )
Morning Wayne, (Beatific smile) On Oct 21, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Wayne Fugitt wrote: Morning Kathryn, At 09:01 AM 10/21/2008, you wrote: You got my attentions this morning. grin I am stuck with guessing, at present -- like everyone else here. Some people certainly have been a bit touchy about that, but this is not supposed to be an emotional issue -- it's a simple you are doing, or as they say, parameters of error fall within plus or minus X percent . If X percent is low, it is not much of a guess, if it is high, then whoa, look out. Might as well throw mud at the wall. OK. The new Formula will tell us.. The percent Guessing The percent Facts The percent Theory The percent Accuracy in everything we do Finally, It would tell us What percent Idiot we are What percent Genius we are What would you pay for that ? Now that is priceless! thanks for the laugh there. We would become so engrossed in this we would all forget how to make CS ! I have always said, It you can do it with a pencil and pad, I can write a program to do it. Of course Marshall can too, as well as many others. Once I became so tired of doing ppm calculations, I wrote a program to do it. Then I wrote one, Backwards ppm Calculations. Can't remember why I did that and what all it did. As I have said, People Worry too much. Me included. That is a fact. Not worrying is a good habit to get into, imho. Still working on it. Never even been concerned about the ppm of my CS. When it kills wasps, bees, snakes, alligators, and little critters, what else could I want ? Yeah, it is all an academic exercise, since it works well and does what we need it to. Take care,Kathryn Wayne Modern Thinking Primitive Logic -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:01:13 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: The question is, do you calculate the ppm? You don't have to guess much, and if you prefer, you can do the calculations for error resolution too, then you know exactly how much guessing you are doing, or as they say, parameters of error fall within plus or minus X percent . If X percent is low, it is not much of a guess, if it is high, then whoa, look out. Might as well throw mud at the wall. Faradays Law describes the electrolysis very well. Distilled water for laboratory use is the good enough for labs, so it is by definition good enough for us. I do not take that for granted, I check the conductivity of the water first anyway. Distilled water for lab use should have nothing else in it except water, and it should not conduct any electricity, so the EC reading should be zero. Mine usually is not zero, but very close, within a few parts per billion. After it sits for a while, the EC reading climbs a little, as the distilled water absorbs some gases from the air. It is a very sensitive measurement for my type of purpose. My own experiments show that for me, consistently, the amount of silver deposited in the water during electrolysis as calculated by Faraday's Law is the same as the EC reading taken immediately in the water as it is working. All the hard science I learned is based on first observation, then explored via calculations and experimentation. We are all of us here doing our own science that is as good or better than most of what passes in the medical field, what with all the abuses that occur there. I am glad to hear that you are feeling benefit from your experiments. Best Wishes, Kathryn Hi Kathryn and Hi list, I do not have faith that one can either guess or calculate PPM with any degree of accuracy. There are just too many unknowns. I notice a lot of people (not you, AFAIK) have made a lot of assumptions about me due to my skepticism regarding acceptance of certain ideas. I believe there has been an oh yeah, well what's *your* answer, smarty pants! type of reaction. :) But I really do not claim to have those answers yet, nor do I feel that having them is a prerequisite for pointing out others do not have them when they (no doubt inadvertently) falsely claim they do. My indicator at this time is not scientific at all, frankly -- I go by whether or not I feel better, what it tastes like, and how much CS does it take to keep my symptoms at bay. For instance, I believe that my most recent batch is weak, because I have to drink at least four ounces twice per day to keep my symptoms from reappearing (a normal batch will do that with four ounces once per day). This is not a bit scientific, of course (all sorts of things could affect the dose required), but then my primary goal *is* to get better, with being able to explain precisely what the medicine is running a distant, but still important, second. The fall and winter is my economic lean time, but in the spring I hope to begin accumulating equipment and chemicals so that I can do more proper testing. I am not remotely qualified, mind you, but my plan is to at least have a shot at reaching some meaningful numbers. Obviously, an atomic absorption spectrometer is beyond my means, but there are some simpler methods for getting decent numbers (not as simple as an EC meter and laser pointer though). Also, if certain business arrangements go well (which is not at all in the bag yet) I may gain access to some funding for equipment by spring. And if all else fails, I should at least have money for sending samples out to an established lab. Meantime, I do not want to get caught up in data which is unlikely to be accurate (and if that makes me arrogant, as at least one person here has claimed, oh well...mark me with a big A then). There are degrees of accuracy, of course, with absolute being unavailable (and Ode has pointed this out before). However, my close enough standard requires at least accounting for all elements present as a base. Otherwise, we wind up with more questions than answers, don't you agree? One rather obvious example is that many people have been shocked to learn the types of indoor pollutants their homes contain -- how can we be sure there is nothing but pure air in the environment in which we operate? From carpets, upholstery, and wall coverings that release various gasses, to radon pollution, it's a huge question mark whenever we do work like this in the home. When you unseal a container at home, what are you exposing it to? And what is the effect? And then we supply electrical current, which is an excellent catalyst, LOL... Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit neurotic, but I'm also quite right about this. I just want to know what *is* in that solution. Otherwise, what good is an EC meter reading? Until I can determine that, I just don't see much value in either guessing or calculating PPM, because the
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:16:22 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:39 AM, indi wrote: Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. There has been quite a bit of research by various universities. A compelling case that could be taken seriously by whom? is the question. Well, the FDA would be a really nice start. Or the equivalent agencies in other countries. I think I've read some things that indicate that Sweden and Australia may already be heading toward acceptance of CS (short on time right now, I could be naming the wrong countries). The World Health Organization would be really great. :) There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn True, but as we approach total melt-down, and more and more people have to do without medical care, it seems likely to me that eventually we will see some reforms. The U.S. appears to be approaching the end of a very long and sophisticated game of Monopoly. When there's no-one left to fleece, what will they do? Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
too true Kathryn! dee Clayton Family wrote: On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:39 AM, indi wrote: It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:13 PM, indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:16:22 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:39 AM, indi wrote: Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. There has been quite a bit of research by various universities. A compelling case that could be taken seriously by whom? is the question. Well, the FDA would be a really nice start. Or the equivalent agencies in other countries. I think I've read some things that indicate that Sweden and Australia may already be heading toward acceptance of CS (short on time right now, I could be naming the wrong countries). The World Health Organization would be really great. :) The FDA is one of the agencies I was referring to in my paragraph below. They seem to have one company that they are not blocking in developing certain silver applications, but are definitely hostile to many others. I heard about one CS supplier that was raided by them with guns drawn, etc, and they confiscated the silver solutions that were packaged for shipment. One would think they were after terrorists, the way they behaved. The IRS is another agency that has gone off half cocked in a similar fashion, breaking many laws in the process as well. The World Health Org has it's own prejudices. You could check in to the abuses by baby formula makers, and also abuses by Big Pharma in testing vaccines on the poor of the world. Not saying it is their fault, but the decisions they make affect lots of people, even if they are well meaning, there is some harm done. There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn True, but as we approach total melt-down, and more and more people have to do without medical care, it seems likely to me that eventually we will see some reforms. The U.S. appears to be approaching the end of a very long and sophisticated game of Monopoly. When there's no-one left to fleece, what will they do? I guess they will tell us to click our heels together three times and chant There's no place like home . They already tell people their illnesses are all psychological with no basis in physical problem, so it is not too far to go. And they say WE are the crazy ones- right! -Kathryn Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
I agree with Kathryn, It might become illegal to be well without any supervision of the government regulated Pharma Companies, or their physicians. Seriously I appreciate the freedom we still have to share our experiences via the internet. I hope this freedom will not become a regulated system. M - Original Mess age - From: Clayton Familymailto:clay...@skypoint.com To: silver-list@eskimo.commailto:silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:39 AM, indi wrote: Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. There has been quite a bit of research by various universities. A compelling case that could be taken seriously by whom? is the question. There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.orghttp://silverlist.org/ To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.commailto:silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.commailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.commailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:14:48 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: The FDA is one of the agencies I was referring to in my paragraph below. They seem to have one company that they are not blocking in developing certain silver applications, but are definitely hostile to many others. I heard about one CS supplier that was raided by them with guns drawn, etc, and they confiscated the silver solutions that were packaged for shipment. One would think they were after terrorists, the way they behaved. I think I have seen vague references to a similar story online, but the punchline was order our book now, credit cards accepted!, so I don't really buy it (pun intended). Can you supply any more information on that supposed incident? I know they can get very draconian over practicing medicine without a license, but for just making and selling CS (and not making any illegal claims)? I could always be mistaken, but I don't think so. The IRS is another agency that has gone off half cocked in a similar fashion, breaking many laws in the process as well. I don't doubt that the IRS employs illegal practices of various kinds -- after all, U.S. income tax is voluntary, according to the Constitution, but I cannot recommend you try opting out. Even so, can you tell me where I can find information that they are actively targeting people over CS? The World Health Org has it's own prejudices. You could check in to the abuses by baby formula makers, and also abuses by Big Pharma in testing vaccines on the poor of the world. Not saying it is their fault, but the decisions they make affect lots of people, even if they are well meaning, there is some harm done. Very true, but some corruption is always going to be inevitable. If we require every agency to be perfect then we might as well just dispense with the whole notion of government. Not something I would consider realistic... I guess they will tell us to click our heels together three times and chant There's no place like home . They already tell people their illnesses are all psychological with no basis in physical problem, I have never heard *that* from the FDA or the WHO. In fact, wouldn't that idea be anathema to Big Pharma? I think I see the opposite: medications for depression, jimmy legs, dry eyes, E.D., etc, etc, etc... Their idea appears to be that no-one can get control of their quality of life without pharmaceuticals, and that there's a pharmaceutical answer for everything. If it was all just psychological, then why push the meds? indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Faith writes: I do not agree with this at all. Smacks of paranoia to me. I understand your feeling, Faith, but please do understand that plenty of people have less faith in the system than you do. Twenty years ago you wouldn't have predicted that millions of school children would be on powerful prescription drugs, or that you would not be allowed to take a nail file on an airplane. Go back 40 years and our food was much more nutritious than it is today -- and 40 year before that it was even better. The levels of toxins, hormones and pharmaceuticals in it has skyrocketed. All along the way, regulators have supported and protected the preactices that have brought this about. Marlene's scenario might be pushing it a bit by today's standards, but fast-forward 15 years and who knows? Be well, Mike D. Marlene wrote: I agree with Kathryn, It might become illegal to be well without any supervision of the government regulated Pharma Companies, or their physicians. Seriously I appreciate the freedom we still have to share our experiences via the internet. I hope this freedom will not become a regulated system. Kathryn wrote: There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:55:15 -0700 Marlene Hanson mlehan...@msn.com wrote: I agree with Kathryn, It might become illegal to be well without any supervision of the government regulated Pharma Companies, or their physicians. Oh, I doubt that very much. For one thing, it costs really big money to enforce things like that, and for another, there's no profit in it. :) Seriously I appreciate the freedom we still have to share our experiences via the internet. I hope this freedom will not become a regulated system. It is extremely unlikely that regulation would affect those of us who make it at home. It would affect small manufacturers, who would not be able to compete with Big Pharma, but the power of big corporations is a whole separate issue (and a whole separate discussion group, no doubt). Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Hey, ya gotta keep up with this stuff! Progress, doncha know!? There are now many more FDA approved meds for psychological problems, particularly for the young, whose complaints are ignorable and whose independence is compromised at best. History; Prozac Nation. Ritalin; speed for subteens. On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 15:44 -0400, indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:14:48 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: I guess they will tell us to click our heels together three times and chant There's no place like home . They already tell people their illnesses are all psychological with no basis in physical problem, I have never heard *that* from the FDA or the WHO. In fact, wouldn't that idea be anathema to Big Pharma? I think I see the opposite: medications for depression, jimmy legs, dry eyes, E.D., etc, etc, etc... Their idea appears to be that no-one can get control of their quality of life without pharmaceuticals, and that there's a pharmaceutical answer for everything. If it was all just psychological, then why push the meds? indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
I do not agree with this at all. Smacks of paranoia to me. Faith G. - Original Message - From: Marlene Hanson mlehan...@msn.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing I agree with Kathryn, It might become illegal to be well without any supervision of the government regulated Pharma Companies, or their physicians. Seriously I appreciate the freedom we still have to share our experiences via the internet. I hope this freedom will not become a regulated system. M - Original Mess age - From: Clayton Familymailto:clay...@skypoint.com To: silver-list@eskimo.commailto:silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:39 AM, indi wrote: Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. There has been quite a bit of research by various universities. A compelling case that could be taken seriously by whom? is the question. There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.orghttp://silverlist.org/ To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.commailto:silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.commailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.commailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
In this context, the nuance is different. See: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/fakeprec.html On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008, at 21:33 Asia/Tokyo, Faith Gagne wrote: Spurious defined: Of false or erroneously attributed origin. Also, forged: of a deceitful nature or quality. So spurious accuracy means erroneous or deceitful. Faith G. - Original Message - From: Jonathan B. Britten jbrit...@cc.nakamura-u.ac.jp To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:37 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing I once asked an expert in measurements a question about a related topic. His reply included the phrase spurious accuracy as a term used in his field. I think it boils down to question below. At some point, it's just not important. On Saturday, Oct 18, 2008, at 23:50 Asia/Tokyo, Wayne Fugitt wrote: The real important question, is, ... What difference does it make ? -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
It sounds like you are unaware of Faraday? How can that be? You sound like an educated woman, and are likely to be able to do the calculations without trouble- or not? If one has pure water and pure silver, then? No unknowns. Just facts. Calculatable, repeatable, ergo, Provable. Or were my chemistry professors wrong? And the more than a hundred years of repeatable experiments to boot. It sounds to me like you like to explore obtuse points, which is what piqued my interest in the discussion. Kathryn On Oct 21, 2008, at 11:42 AM, indi wrote: Hi Kathryn and Hi list, I do not have faith that one can either guess or calculate PPM with any degree of accuracy. There are just too many unknowns. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Remember Yossarian!g On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 17:39 -0400, Faith Gagne wrote: I do not agree with this at all. Smacks of paranoia to me. Faith G. - Original Message - From: Marlene Hanson mlehan...@msn.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing I agree with Kathryn, It might become illegal to be well without any supervision of the government regulated Pharma Companies, or their physicians. Seriously I appreciate the freedom we still have to share our experiences via the internet. I hope this freedom will not become a regulated system. M - Original Mess age - From: Clayton Familymailto:clay...@skypoint.com Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. There has been quite a bit of research by various universities. A compelling case that could be taken seriously by whom? is the question. There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. Best Wishes, Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.orghttp://silverlist.org/ To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.commailto:silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.commailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.commailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:39:06 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: It sounds like you are unaware of Faraday? No, actually I am not unaware of Faraday, I just fail to see how his work can be used to provide me with detailed chemical analysis of a given substance. As I said, conductivity of what? remains an unanswered question. How can that be? You sound like an educated woman, and are likely to be able to do the calculations without trouble- or not? If one has pure water and pure silver, then? It sounds like you are disregarding my concerns. No unknowns. Just facts. Calculatable, repeatable, ergo, Provable. Yes, you are definitely disregarding what I said. Or were my chemistry professors wrong? And the more than a hundred years of repeatable experiments to boot. It sounds to me like you like to explore obtuse points, which is what piqued my interest in the discussion. Okay. Well, the desire for detailed analysis without guessing games isn't obtuse to me, it's just natural. I'm sorry if my desire for more knowledge offends you, or if you find me obtuse. BTW, where I come from, an obtuse person usually means someone who doesn't understand or completely ignores what others say to them. Interesting you choose that word for me, isn't it? indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Oct 21, 2008, at 7:06 PM, indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:39:06 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: It sounds like you are unaware of Faraday? No, actually I am not unaware of Faraday, I just fail to see how his work can be used to provide me with detailed chemical analysis of a given substance. As I said, conductivity of what? remains an unanswered question. conductivity of any ion concentration in water, of course. And with Faradays calculations we can get a precise figure for just exactly how much silver (or whatever you put in it) is there. All ions are just itching to hook up with something, and the potentials are all pretty well established, really easy to look up in an online world. I am having a hard time believing that you are such a skeptic that you do not even believe the pure distilled water sold for laboratory use is not really pure water. But maybe that is what you are saying. How can that be? You sound like an educated woman, and are likely to be able to do the calculations without trouble- or not? If one has pure water and pure silver, then? It sounds like you are disregarding my concerns. Perhaps I was. Are you also thinking of the possible volatiles coming from the plastic of the bottles, then; and you definitely said something about air- which is basically soup anyway, not easy to figure out what is there either. These sort of interactions (silver ions, volatiles and air) might be in the ppb or ppt, so not easy to pick out of the soup. There is probably equipment somewhere (I am thinking of the EPA) that can measure something like that. Our ability to measure tiny amounts has way outstripped our knowledge of how it interacts in the body in such small amounts. No unknowns. Just facts. Calculatable, repeatable, ergo, Provable. Yes, you are definitely disregarding what I said. Or were my chemistry professors wrong? And the more than a hundred years of repeatable experiments to boot. It sounds to me like you like to explore obtuse points, which is what piqued my interest in the discussion. Okay. Well, the desire for detailed analysis without guessing games isn't obtuse to me, it's just natural. I'm sorry if my desire for more knowledge offends you, or if you find me obtuse. BTW, where I come from, an obtuse person usually means someone who doesn't understand or completely ignores what others say to them. Interesting you choose that word for me, isn't it? indi I said you seem to like to explore obtuse points. I did not intend to make it personal. Please forgive me, I am sorry, I did not intend to insult you. Where I come from an obtuse point is one that is not the average one under consideration, but a more difficult one to discern. Kathryn -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
A German medical doctor named Mathais Rath makes really extraordinary claims about the supposed evils of pharmaceutical companies. He has an extensive website that is well worth reading. I would characterize his perspective as extreme, but given the facts of history, not paranoid. http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/ His group seems to have something to say about all kinds of issues; the site is worth a bookmark. On Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008, at 05:52 Asia/Tokyo, M. G. Devour wrote: Faith writes: I do not agree with this at all. Smacks of paranoia to me. I understand your feeling, Faith, but please do understand that plenty of people have less faith in the system than you do. Twenty years ago you wouldn't have predicted that millions of school children would be on powerful prescription drugs, or that you would not be allowed to take a nail file on an airplane. Go back 40 years and our food was much more nutritious than it is today -- and 40 year before that it was even better. The levels of toxins, hormones and pharmaceuticals in it has skyrocketed. All along the way, regulators have supported and protected the preactices that have brought this about. Marlene's scenario might be pushing it a bit by today's standards, but fast-forward 15 years and who knows? Be well, Mike D. Marlene wrote: I agree with Kathryn, It might become illegal to be well without any supervision of the government regulated Pharma Companies, or their physicians. Seriously I appreciate the freedom we still have to share our experiences via the internet. I hope this freedom will not become a regulated system. Kathryn wrote: There are those who have a vested interest in promoting their own products to the exclusion of all others, and they are well funded and have quite a bit of political power. There has been a case made for ongoing corruption in various federal agencies, several of which would not withstand much scientific scrutiny. It all seems to do with money, and who is going to be making a bundle off of what product, and through supression of competitor's products. This world is not much fun for us pollyanna types. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:35:55 -0500 Clayton Family clay...@skypoint.com wrote: I am having a hard time believing that you are such a skeptic that you do not even believe the pure distilled water sold for laboratory use is not really pure water. But maybe that is what you are saying. No, what I said was exactly this, but you appear to be completely ignoring it: There are degrees of accuracy, of course, with absolute being unavailable (and Ode has pointed this out before). However, my close enough standard requires at least accounting for all elements present as a base. Otherwise, we wind up with more questions than answers, don't you agree? One rather obvious example is that many people have been shocked to learn the types of indoor pollutants their homes contain -- how can we be sure there is nothing but pure air in the environment in which we operate? From carpets, upholstery, and wall coverings that release various gasses, to radon pollution, it's a huge question mark whenever we do work like this in the home. When you unseal a container at home, what are you exposing it to? And what is the effect? And then we supply electrical current, which is an excellent catalyst, LOL... Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit neurotic, but I'm also quite right about this. I just want to know what *is* in that solution. Otherwise, what good is an EC meter reading? Until I can determine that, I just don't see much value in either guessing or calculating PPM, because the question PPM of what? has not been answered. This is not to say that I think anyone is making an inferior solution, merely that I want to know more. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Thanks Mike. Faith G. - Original Message - From: M. G. Devour mdev...@eskimo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:47 PM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Faith writes: I do not agree with this at all. Smacks of paranoia to me. I understand your feeling, Faith, but please do understand that plenty of people have less faith in the system than you do. Twenty years ago you wouldn't have predicted that millions of school children would be on powerful prescription drugs, or that you would not be allowed to take a nail file on an airplane. Go back 40 years and our food was much more nutritious than it is today -- and 40 year before that it was even better. The levels of toxins, hormones and pharmaceuticals in it has skyrocketed. All along the way, regulators have supported and protected the preactices that have brought this about. Marlene's scenario might be pushing it a bit by today's standards, but fast-forward 15 years and who knows? Be well, Mike D. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing- or calculating
- Original Message - [I just want to know what *is* in that solution. Otherwise, what good is an EC meter reading? Until I can determine that, I just don't see much value in either guessing or calculating PPM, because the question PPM of what? has not been answered. This is not to say that I think anyone is making an inferior solution, merely that I want to know more. indi] Wanted to know that, questioned meters, tried to determine that, couldn't find the answers to satisfy me either, and the answers I did find seemed to conflict so I don't bother any more, I have enough information and knowledge to produce it, produce a product which passes my quality control manager.Oh yeah, that would be me!, 'guess' test it, by and large do it repeatedly, drink and/or use it and just accept it for what it is and what it does now. Neville. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring IS Guessing
At 12:54 PM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote: One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. By definition, a qualified chemist or lab tech can indeed do just that. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations If all you have is silver, water and it's various combinations, there is little doubt what is being measured. Since there are other environmental elements involved, those other elements must be controlled and they CAN BE controlled with some care and elimination of samples. An EC meter will not tell you what they are, but it can be used to monitor *change* in EC and make *comparisons* in the same sealed sample over time. Under the same conditions, samples that do change their EC reading are eliminated as contaminated...it's the ones that don't that are of interest. You eliminate variables to get a commonality. If they ALL change, then the *conditions* must be reconsidered. That's setting up the parameters of reasonable accuracy while considering the limitations of the tools being used. You CAN work around limitations with eliminations. Better tools may reveal why the changed samples changed, but that's not the commonality when not all of them do. You CAN get good results with bad tools. If you've ever dealt with laboratories, you'll know that data is not absolute either..it's just a better guess than average...and they DO average it. I don't sell meters because people insist on believing that a PPM meter measures PPM.it doesn't. I wind up spending hours un twisting contexts, explaining what they actually DO do, and what they won't do. If someone *buys* a meter despite not being sold one, there's a better chance that they know what to do with it. But I still cringe a little when I pack one up. Science is a matter of educated guess over blind faith, there are no absolutes. I never said there were...YOU said that, then claimed that I did, then tried to prove it with no evidence. I say: ..it's ALL magic. Science is repeatable magic made by eliminating the more un repeatable. Commonalities within parameters But even that is a hierarchy of probability. In the subatomic realms, the very bottom of the reality pot the measuring itself, creates what is being measured... and the space/time in which to measure it. It all comes down to probably repeatable fantasy vs random fantasy. There is no **proof** that ANYTHING even EXISTS, only evidence gathered by elimination. [The function of every sense depends entirely upon what it eliminates from perception] Evidence doesn't prove anything, it only points out common sets of probability by shucking the uncommon. Anecdotal evidence works the same way. You listen to a thousand stories and look for what they have in common while eliminating what they don't have in common, thus establishing a set of probabilities to look into deeper with more detailed eliminations. Anecdotal evidence contains data. Sensory perception is a HORRIBLY inaccurate measuring tool, but it works well enough to create cohesive realities held in common, BECAUSE. it is based upon the process of elimination. Measure it with a string, mark it with a crayon and cut it with a chain saw, then compare pieces to find the center. [Cut and try] That's a long way around differences, but it's every bit as accurate as a computer guided laser. LOL, then the Doors of Perception turn into windows and you find there is no distance for there to be a difference between. All perceivable motion is spin finding the center of a fantasy to argue into a semblance of a common existence. Ode An EC meter reveals *conductivity*; only proper chemical analysis can reveal *what* we are measuring the conductivity of. Come on now, this is really elementary stuff. Either we have data, or we have anecdotal evidence, but we do not *call* anecdotal evidence data if we wish to be honest. Sincerely, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date: 10/18/2008 6:01 PM
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? I mean, geez... you're getting results from CS so I'd assume that you have gotten proof as to what's in the CS you are taking? If so, could you kindly share this proof? As for my crazy, loony self, I'll just continue to trust in the CS I've been making for years now. Seems to work as well even when it's several years old. AND I'll continue to recommend it to family and friends as the opportunity presents itself. I've always heard that the Proof is in the puddingMy CS pudding really works, even though I have no proof as to why Ruth - Original Message - From: Indi To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. By definition, a qualified chemist or lab tech can indeed do just that. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations An EC meter reveals *conductivity*; only proper chemical analysis can reveal *what* we are measuring the conductivity of. Come on now, this is really elementary stuff. Either we have data, or we have anecdotal evidence, but we do not *call* anecdotal evidence data if we wish to be honest. Look, too many people are taking what I said the wrong way. It may be proof enough for you, but it isn't actual *proof*. Just as I am satisfied that CS is curing me from MRSA, but if I write a medical paper about that and submit it to the medical journals I'll be laughed at because I have no actual *proof*. Let's face facts here: if we are not objective enough to recognize the difference between data and anecdotal evidence, then we are just crackpots, and the crackpots issuing absolute statements are the whole reason I waited over a year from the time I first heard of CS until I started using it. I feel personally harmed by that kind of thing, and it is certainly more than conceivable that many people are harmed in this way. Therefore I implore you all, let's be reasonable and honest and let's learn to recognize the difference between hard data and anecdotal evidence. Otherwise, we risk doing suffering humanity a disservice. Wouldn't it be so much nicer (and useful) if, when I'd first read about CS, I'd come away thinking Well, those people have no real data, but they certainly seem sincere -- maybe they're on to something? But no, I was left thinking, what a bunch of loonies!, because of all the absolute statements and unsubstantiable claims presented as data. I had to get really, desperately, on-my-last-legs ill before I tried it, and even then I probably wouldn't have except a friend whom I'd discussed it with bought it for me. Now I'm a believer, but I *still* do not know what I do not know, and I recognize that. That is important! Please -- do not be one of the crrazies responsible for driving reasonable people who are suffering away from CS. Many suffer, and they need the benefit of our experience. But they will not get that if our experience comes wrapped in hyperbolic, fantastical, stories purporting to be facts. If we could all be a little more Joe Friday (just the facts, Ma'm) we could do much more good in the world. If I've offended you, I apologize, but as you may have figured out by now the principles at stake here are rather dear to my heart. I want to contribute, not just muddy the (already quite unclear) waters. Okay, now: I'm stepping away from the soap box, and will not speak on this further unless replied to directly. Only you can decide what's important to you. Sincerely, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription... Of course, some people don't care about all that. The planet's over-populated anyway, right? I'm healthy; screw them, right? But for those of us who do care, anti-intellectualism is not the answer. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Sorry for the caps if it was offensive to anyone. This IS a community of caring individuals otherwise we wouldn't be privy to the vast knowledge and testing from several individuals on this list. The intellects (and us not-so-intellects) of this list DO care very much about the well-being of people and animals. And if we lived in a perfect world, we could have doctors recommending CS (but then would Big Pharma be there too, to try and ban CS because they can't profit from it like they can synthetic antibiotics?). As to the Who cares... What difference does it make... Well, I DO care, but I trust what I've learned and what I have experienced over the last several years. Guess it's like owning a car - I don't know all the workings, etc. of the thing, but if I go to those in the know and learn from various experiences I've had using it, I don't actually have to BE a mechanic. Anti-intellectualism was not an issue in my post. Ruth - Original Message - From: indi To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:39 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription... Of course, some people don't care about all that. The planet's over-populated anyway, right? I'm healthy; screw them, right? But for those of us who do care, anti-intellectualism is not the answer. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:59:14 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Sorry for the caps if it was offensive to anyone. No, not offensive. It did make me laugh, though. :) This IS a community of caring individuals otherwise we wouldn't be privy to the vast knowledge and testing from several individuals on this list. That I do know, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. The intellects (and us not-so-intellects) of this list DO care very much about the well-being of people and animals. And if we lived in a perfect world, we could have doctors recommending CS (but then would Big Pharma be there too, to try and ban CS because they can't profit from it like they can synthetic antibiotics?). Yes, I agree. If CS becomes popular enough, we will see Big Pharma improving on it with proprietary manufacturing processes and lots of statistics claiming to be data to show their superiority. Kind of like what we see now, but with bigger budgets and government sanction. Still, that would probably be an enormous improvement over a lot of what is currently offered by Big Pharma. As to the Who cares... What difference does it make... Well, I DO care, I knew you did, actually. :) but I trust what I've learned and what I have experienced over the last several years. Guess it's like owning a car - I don't know all the workings, etc. of the thing, but if I go to those in the know and learn from various experiences I've had using it, I don't actually have to BE a mechanic. That's certainly true enough (though my Dad wouldn't buy that back when it was time for me to learn to drive, LOL). Anti-intellectualism was not an issue in my post. Also true. Sorry, I kind of used your message as a springboard to make my point. It was somewhat bad form, and I apologize if I offended you. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Evening Neville, I have been out of town for 3 days, and you are getting ahead. grin At 11:54 AM 10/18/2008, you wrote: One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. As my teacher said, when your mothers says, All the kids like spinish, tell her to name 3. So, you can name 3 methods ! You are living in the dark ages my friend. Precise or absolute, does not even matter in this case. Nothing I say is silly, unless I intend for it to be. Not one Scientist or chemist or CS maker can measure the ppm, with a TWO BIT EC Meter. ( Even the instrument manufactures tell you that, .. no ppm meter exists ) Unless, they have many dollars worth of lab equipment, and likely then, they will not know how to use it. It takes many thousands of dollars worth of equipment and special trained technician to operate it, as Ode made very clear That is as plain and clear as I can make it. How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? Wayne -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:13:43 -0500 Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com wrote: Howdy Wayne, Not one Scientist or chemist or CS maker can measure the ppm, with a TWO BIT EC Meter. ( Even the instrument manufactures tell you that, .. no ppm meter exists ) Unless, they have many dollars worth of lab equipment, and likely then, they will not know how to use it. It takes many thousands of dollars worth of equipment and special trained technician to operate it, as Ode made very clear That is as plain and clear as I can make it. Yes, and actually that is exactly what I said. So we have no argument there. :) How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? I am stuck with guessing, at present -- like everyone else here. However, that is completely beside the point I was trying to make. The absence of hard data does not magically convert anecdotal evidence into data. Some people certainly have been a bit touchy about that, but this is not supposed to be an emotional issue -- it's a simple discussion of what is known versus what is presumed, a distinction I originally *presumed* we all were qualified to make (I do know better now, LOL). I presume CS is helping get well, but if the only proof I have is that I am getting well, then there is much more to be discovered before I can have it witnessed, written up, and submitted it to the medical journals. There could be innumerable other explanations for the improvement in my condition. I personally *believe* it's the CS. That will not win me any arguments in scientific circles though... My former doctor was happy to see me getting better, but he isn't telling his other patients to look into CS. And *that* is the bottom line here, as far as I'm concerned. It isn't like some people seem to think, that all doctors are evil, that college makes people stupid, that science is a form of superstition, etc. No, it's a simple lack of hard data perpetuated largely by a combination of Big Pharma, unscrupulous vendors, and crackpots making extravagant claims that keeps the virtues of CS a secret most will never learn. Or at least, that's how I see it... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring IS Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:42:59 -0400 Ode Coyote odecoy...@alltel.net wrote: If all you have is silver, water and it's various combinations, That's rather large if, and you keep choosing to ignore it. If one proceeds to build a mountain of logic upon a fragile premise one can create quite a labyrinth in which to wander (don't you just hate that?). I really cannot agree with you Ode, no matter how hard you try to force me to accept your premise as the basis for your conclusions. It isn't personal. You are free to disagree, it isn't necessary for you to prove anything to me. I feel you have just taken this whole discussion the wrong way, frankly. The bottom line here is, we probably both fall into the know enough to be dangerous category anyway. IMHO. :) Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring IS Guessing
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:15:00 -0400 indi indi.sha...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:42:59 -0400 Ode Coyote odecoy...@alltel.net wrote: If all you have is silver, water and it's various combinations, That's rather large if, and you keep choosing to ignore it. If one proceeds to build a mountain of logic upon a fragile premise one can create quite a labyrinth in which to wander (don't you just hate that?). I really cannot agree with you Ode, no matter how hard you try to force me to accept your premise as the basis for your conclusions. It isn't personal. You are free to disagree, it isn't necessary for you to prove anything to me. I feel you have just taken this whole discussion the wrong way, frankly. The bottom line here is, we probably both fall into the know enough to be dangerous category anyway. IMHO. :) Cheers, indi PS: I know enough to be dangerous is a humorous colloquialism where I come from, I don't mean to imply that either of us is literally dangerous. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Quote: [If CS becomes popular enough, we will see Big Pharma improving on it with proprietary manufacturing processes and lots of statistics claiming to be data to show their superiority. Kind of like what we see now, but with bigger budgets and government sanction. Still, that would probably be an enormous improvement over a lot of what is currently offered by Big Pharma.] While anything would probably be an improvement on what pharma has to offer currently, with some valid exceptions I spose, if they ever did get into it I have to wonder what truck load of side effects or issues 'their' CS product would bring as it would not be as 'pure' as I produce in my own kitchen. My guess is that there would be 'additives' that would be included for the purpose of marketing. If so then you would not be buying 'pure' EICS as I know it and produce it so I for one wouldn't be buying any of it anyway, even if they sold it for $1 a 44 gallon drum. I'll never go past what I produce myself as I know exactly what's in it, (from a lay-mans point of view of course). But then again there would probably still be a queue outside the chemist shop simply because it's a chemist shop, and whatever they have on offer 'must be good' because they, or governing bodies say so, and I know how caring all of that lot are for my well being! g Perhaps this could be a good thing though as most people line up for pharma drugs knowing of their side effects so it may give EICS real legitimacy, in some whacked out screwed up sense. People are funny like that. N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Hi there Wayne, hope you enjoyed your 3 day fishing trip g Hey, I hope there are two Nevilles here, either that or you're under the mistaken belief I am posting these quotes you keep assigning to me. g I can get into enough trouble on my own thanks very much, without the assistance of others! bg N. - Original Message - From: Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:43 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Evening Neville, I have been out of town for 3 days, and you are getting ahead. grin At 11:54 AM 10/18/2008, you wrote: One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. As my teacher said, when your mothers says, All the kids like spinish, tell her to name 3. So, you can name 3 methods ! You are living in the dark ages my friend. Precise or absolute, does not even matter in this case. Nothing I say is silly, unless I intend for it to be. Not one Scientist or chemist or CS maker can measure the ppm, with a TWO BIT EC Meter. ( Even the instrument manufactures tell you that, .. no ppm meter exists ) Unless, they have many dollars worth of lab equipment, and likely then, they will not know how to use it. It takes many thousands of dollars worth of equipment and special trained technician to operate it, as Ode made very clear That is as plain and clear as I can make it. How many times have you calculated ppm ? ( Instead of guessing ) What do you have then ? A combination of all the junk or one item only ? Wayne -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:33:08 +1030 Neville nevillem...@bigpond.com wrote: - Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Quote: [If CS becomes popular enough, we will see Big Pharma improving on it with proprietary manufacturing processes and lots of statistics claiming to be data to show their superiority. Kind of like what we see now, but with bigger budgets and government sanction. Still, that would probably be an enormous improvement over a lot of what is currently offered by Big Pharma.] While anything would probably be an improvement on what pharma has to offer currently, with some valid exceptions I spose, if they ever did get into it I have to wonder what truck load of side effects or issues 'their' CS product would bring as it would not be as 'pure' as I produce in my own kitchen. My guess is that there would be 'additives' that would be included for the purpose of marketing. If so then you would not be buying 'pure' EICS as I know it and produce it so I for one wouldn't be buying any of it anyway, even if they sold it for $1 a 44 gallon drum. I'll never go past what I produce myself as I know exactly what's in it, (from a lay-mans point of view of course). But then again there would probably still be a queue outside the chemist shop simply because it's a chemist shop, and whatever they have on offer 'must be good' because they, or governing bodies say so, and I know how caring all of that lot are for my well being! g Perhaps this could be a good thing though as most people line up for pharma drugs knowing of their side effects so it may give EICS real legitimacy, in some whacked out screwed up sense. People are funny like that. N. :) I can see it now: Our newest drug, Silvcheminol Ag, is the best -- just check out our list of side effects. You won't get that making it at home! A friend of mine, who's a nurse in a burn ward, says silver-lined bandages are in common use now for severe burn patients. I was surprised to hear it, thinking for sure they'd rather push synthetic chemicals than silver. Maybe there's hope for western medicine yet (some distant day). indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Evening Neville, At 04:18 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote: Hey, I hope there are two Nevilles here, either that or you're under the mistaken belief I am posting these quotes you keep assigning to me. g I can get into enough trouble on my own thanks very much, without the assistance of others! bg The list is getting funny and serious at the same time. Must be some software or person mis quoting. Maybe the quote character used is lost, or ? Not sure. I will be more carful. grin Wayne == -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 7:55 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:33:08 +1030 Neville nevillem...@bigpond.com wrote: - Original Message - From: indi indi.sha...@gmail.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Quote: [I can see it now: Our newest drug, Silvcheminol Ag, is thebest -- just check out our list of side effects. You won't get that making it at home! indi] LOL! That was good and I'm smiling indi, the worrying thing is it's accurate to boot..and now I'm solemn faced again! Cheers...Neville. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: Wayne Fugitt cwf...@fugitt.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing Evening Neville, At 04:18 PM 10/20/2008, you wrote: Hey, I hope there are two Nevilles here, either that or you're under the mistaken belief I am posting these quotes you keep assigning to me. g I can get into enough trouble on my own thanks very much, without the assistance of others! bg [The list is getting funny and serious at the same time.] -Well I thought all of us CS users were considered loons anyway so I guess we're all in good company! g [Must be some software or person mis quoting.] - Just put it down to software Wayne, people don't make mistakes. g N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Hmmm... Is indi in reality Mike Monet? Sounds like him. Remember? Chuck de ja fu - The feeling that somewhere, somehow you've been hit in the head like this before. On 10/20/2008 12:39:02 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:24 -0500 Ruth Bertella berte...@lfdcbham.com wrote: Wow... now we are crazy, irresponsible, loonies because we believe in CS?!?! Proof or no proof, WHO CARES... WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHY ALL THE CAPS, LOL? Seriously, it may make a vast difference if one cares about the well-being of people in general. Like my Mother, for whom the doctor said so is right up there with it's in the bible. Or my best friend, dead now because the doctors were the authority, and I with my silver was crazy and probably experiencing a placebo effect. Yes, I'd like to see a community of caring people who are not anti-intellectuals attempt to nail down enough credible, scientifically-oriented evidence to make a compelling case that could then be taken seriously enough to prompt some federal grant for further investigation which might yield some compelling scientific facts. I'd like to see people come away from the doctor's office with knowledge of CS rather than a prescription for some corrosive chemical concoction which will do harm for which they will require another visit, another prescription No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
CSMeasuring or Guessing
Morning Neville, At 08:40 AM 10/18/2008, you wrote: You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :) One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations I have said it many times, but ODE said it better. The is a calculation that some say is close, but I would wager, with the real test is done, the calculation is off a small amount. The real important question, is, ... What difference does it make ? Wayne 1000 messages about Blue Moons Likely many have blue fingers from changing the subject line -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
Thanks Wayne. Faith G. - Original Message - From: Wayne Fugitt cwa...@netdoor.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: CSMeasuring or Guessing Morning Neville, At 08:40 AM 10/18/2008, you wrote: You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :) One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations I have said it many times, but ODE said it better. The is a calculation that some say is close, but I would wager, with the real test is done, the calculation is off a small amount. The real important question, is, ... What difference does it make ? Wayne 1000 messages about Blue Moons Likely many have blue fingers from changing the subject line -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
One Degree or 10, is not worth a nickle for arriving at the ppm of CS. That's very silly. CS is a physical substance, and there are known methods which are quite precise. And a Chemist cannot usually operate the huge combination of instruments used for some measurements, ... without highly special training. By definition, a qualified chemist or lab tech can indeed do just that. No true ppm meter exists. All are EC meters and do internal calculations or you do them externally, to get a close approximations An EC meter reveals *conductivity*; only proper chemical analysis can reveal *what* we are measuring the conductivity of. Come on now, this is really elementary stuff. Either we have data, or we have anecdotal evidence, but we do not *call* anecdotal evidence data if we wish to be honest. Look, too many people are taking what I said the wrong way. It may be proof enough for you, but it isn't actual *proof*. Just as I am satisfied that CS is curing me from MRSA, but if I write a medical paper about that and submit it to the medical journals I'll be laughed at because I have no actual *proof*. Let's face facts here: if we are not objective enough to recognize the difference between data and anecdotal evidence, then we are just crackpots, and the crackpots issuing absolute statements are the whole reason I waited over a year from the time I first heard of CS until I started using it. I feel personally harmed by that kind of thing, and it is certainly more than conceivable that many people are harmed in this way. Therefore I implore you all, let's be reasonable and honest and let's learn to recognize the difference between hard data and anecdotal evidence. Otherwise, we risk doing suffering humanity a disservice. Wouldn't it be so much nicer (and useful) if, when I'd first read about CS, I'd come away thinking Well, those people have no real data, but they certainly seem sincere -- maybe they're on to something? But no, I was left thinking, what a bunch of loonies!, because of all the absolute statements and unsubstantiable claims presented as data. I had to get really, desperately, on-my-last-legs ill before I tried it, and even then I probably wouldn't have except a friend whom I'd discussed it with bought it for me. Now I'm a believer, but I *still* do not know what I do not know, and I recognize that. That is important! Please -- do not be one of the crrazies responsible for driving reasonable people who are suffering away from CS. Many suffer, and they need the benefit of our experience. But they will not get that if our experience comes wrapped in hyperbolic, fantastical, stories purporting to be facts. If we could all be a little more Joe Friday (just the facts, Ma'm) we could do much more good in the world. If I've offended you, I apologize, but as you may have figured out by now the principles at stake here are rather dear to my heart. I want to contribute, not just muddy the (already quite unclear) waters. Okay, now: I'm stepping away from the soap box, and will not speak on this further unless replied to directly. Only you can decide what's important to you. Sincerely, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
But the thing is Indi, that if all of us had reacted the way you did, and would not try it because there was not any provable data, then we would *all* have been very badly off indeed, and would *never* have ever used EIS! I for one, would have been much the poorer in health. Therefore I would strongly disagree with you about the need to be able to prove anything before recommending it. dee Indi wrote: Wouldn't it be so much nicer (and useful) if, when I'd first read about CS, I'd come away thinking Well, those people have no real data, but they certainly seem sincere -- maybe they're on to something? But no, I was left thinking, what a bunch of loonies!, because of all the absolute statements and unsubstantiable claims presented as data. I had to get really, desperately, on-my-last-legs ill before I tried it, and even then I probably wouldn't have except a friend whom I'd discussed it with bought it for me. Now I'm a believer, but I *still* do not know what I do not know, and I recognize that. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSMeasuring or Guessing
- Original Message - From: Wayne Fugitt cwa...@netdoor.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 1:20 AM Subject: CSMeasuring or Guessing [Morning Neville, You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us). A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home. People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)] Morning Wayne, sorry but thought I needed to establish that I believe you put my name to someone elses quote. g N. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
