Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. I've never been closer to Africa than Engineers Without Borders videos, but the unique mystery of that old land is, well, legendary. Actually, of all the countries I have visited, I felt most at home in Israel. I'm 4th generation Canadian, neither Jewish nor Muslim, so go figure, but it just felt like home. (Costa Rica is a fantastic place too. What spirit!) But I ended up back here anyway, something about family, maybe. An interesting sidebar! Demographic dispersion: the search for comfort. Jesse From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:19:45 +0900 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hello Jesse, Derk, Robert and all IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. What's home? LOL! (What's TV?) Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. Partly, and also with a different take on different stories too. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical. Humans are gregarious, but they don't really adapt well. Humans don't adapt? That's exactly what they DO do, more so than any other species except perhaps Nordic rats and cockroaches, our noble partners in life! It's our ability to adapt that has put us at the pinnacle of the species pile, as much as anything else. It's the story of our evolution. Culturally? Different perhaps, or perhaps not. Roots, yes, sure, but we are not trees! (More's the pity! LOL!) Einstein said that you can't be happy too far from where you were born, but methinks he was confusing the relative with the relatives. I was born in Cape Town. I was never very happy in Cape Town, I wanted to leave from an early age. And leave I did. I was never very happy when I went back either, and the further I'd been the less happy I'd be. Now, much later, the last couple of times I've been there have been interesting, from the point of view of retracing some old steps to gain a better perspective, that kind of thing, but there's no feeling of home, of this is where I belong or anything like that. Same applies to South Africa, with the exception of a larger sense, in that South Africa is part of Africa, and I discovered about 15 years ago that if anything I'm an African, and it doesn't much matter exactly where in that rather large continent. There are things about Africa that move me, which others who've been with me but were not Africans were oblivious to. Maybe I'll end up there, who knows. In the meantime, though I've lived in many places, I've never thought of any of them as home, nor thought of staying there permanently. Now I have no immediate family left. I mourned them when they died, but family is not something I miss or feel any lack of, any more than home is. Home's where you hang your hat, and blood is not thicker than water. I had two brothers, both dead now, neither of them was related to me in any way, but both meant much more to me than my real brother ever did. Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. I didn't plan for it to be this way, it's just that that's how it panned out. But I'm not the only one, there are many of us who live like this. Some people transplant, and live in their new homes quite happily. Others keep moving on. Rolling stones gathering no moss? Well maybe - I don't have a mortgage anyway! As for moss, it hasn't been aimless or just whimsical, there's reason and substance to it, it makes an integrated picture, it makes sense, not chaos. I'm not lacking for moss. But there's more than one kind of moss. Just my 2, um, yen. Regards Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. I'm a Southron. Back during The War thousands of verses were written to our national anthem, Dixie; one of them went, I thank God every sparklin' morn That he saw fit to have me born in Dixie. I've always felt that way, and feel sad for anyone who doesn't feel that way about their natal land. And if one is truly fortunate, as their youth ends and they are reborn as an adult, they'll find their heart's homeland, as John Denver described when he wrote, He was born in the summer of his twenty-second year, coming home to a place he'd never been before. He left yesterday behind him, you might say he was born again, you might say he found the key to every door. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Jesse, When I visited Israel in the past, I always made me thin of US. I could not point on any single features, but maybe it was the shops or maybe the electric installations, transformers etc., but it was an US feeling and maybe some parts of Canada also. I am however sure that it was something structural. Costa Rica is quite special and we will always remember the couple that had a very large ranch, with private air field at pacific south coast. They had a private luxury bungalow hotel that the wife was running with love and care. Every year she went to Paris to study and improve the cooking in their fantastic restaurant. It is quite funny, because my wife started with renting a separate part of our house http://playa.nu and later helping friends to rent their properties. She managed to engaged me in starting to build a rental portal and now we are busy with http://villaslujo.com. It also give us a significant extra income to add to my retirement income and when she retire in a few years. We love this activity and made the site so it can be expanded to include other areas in Spain and other countries. I have great fun with both the energy issues and the rental portal, even if the latter has diverted quite some time from http://energysavingnow.com/ Hakan At 02:51 AM 2/11/2005, you wrote: Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. I've never been closer to Africa than Engineers Without Borders videos, but the unique mystery of that old land is, well, legendary. Actually, of all the countries I have visited, I felt most at home in Israel. I'm 4th generation Canadian, neither Jewish nor Muslim, so go figure, but it just felt like home. (Costa Rica is a fantastic place too. What spirit!) But I ended up back here anyway, something about family, maybe. An interesting sidebar! Demographic dispersion: the search for comfort. Jesse From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:19:45 +0900 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hello Jesse, Derk, Robert and all IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. What's home? LOL! (What's TV?) Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. Partly, and also with a different take on different stories too. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical. Humans are gregarious, but they don't really adapt well. Humans don't adapt? That's exactly what they DO do, more so than any other species except perhaps Nordic rats and cockroaches, our noble partners in life! It's our ability to adapt that has put us at the pinnacle of the species pile, as much as anything else. It's the story of our evolution. Culturally? Different perhaps, or perhaps not. Roots, yes, sure, but we are not trees! (More's the pity! LOL!) Einstein said that you can't be happy too far from where you were born, but methinks he was confusing the relative with the relatives. I was born in Cape Town. I was never very happy in Cape Town, I wanted to leave from an early age. And leave I did. I was never very happy when I went back either, and the further I'd been the less happy I'd be. Now, much later, the last couple of times I've been there have been interesting, from the point of view of retracing some old steps to gain a better perspective, that kind of thing, but there's no feeling of home, of this is where I belong or anything like that. Same applies to South Africa, with the exception of a larger sense, in that South Africa is part of Africa, and I discovered about 15 years ago that if anything I'm an African, and it doesn't much matter exactly where in that rather large continent. There are things about Africa that move me, which others who've been with me but were not Africans were oblivious to. Maybe I'll end up there, who knows. In the meantime, though I've lived in many places, I've never thought of any of them as home, nor thought of staying there permanently. Now I have no immediate family left. I mourned them when they died, but family is not something I miss or feel any lack of, any more than home is. Home's where you hang your hat, and blood
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. I don't think they imply that. It hasn't been an issue for me, if issue means a problem or difficulty. As I said, it's just the way things panned out. I probably wouldn't have thought about it that much, or not in those terms, had other people not started asking me questions about home and family and so on, mainly because they couldn't find the right label to paste on my forehead and it made them uncomfortable. I guess it was an issue for them. I'd say something like it didn't matter much to me but they couldn't accept that, didn't believe me, kept pestering me about it. That it wasn't an issue for me also seems to have been an issue for them. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. That sounds more like relief than satisfaction. There a great satisfaction in finding that it's the whole planet you're a citizen of, rather than just some little corner of it. IF that's the kind of person you are. Funny... It's one of those divides where each side thinks they can see the other side's position clearly but the other side can't see their position. It seems to me that one side might be right about that and the other isn't, and I think that's because the idea of someone not needing or valuing these ties of home and family is somehow threatening or upsetting to those who do need and value them. I may not need them or value them, but I did not say that they have no value, nor that those who do need them and value them are wrong or misguided. I've watched so many friends live with and through these things, very close friends many of them, it's into it's third generation now, so I have a pretty good idea of what they mean (maybe better in some ways than they do themselves, not being attached, and able to make comparisons). The same can seldom be said of the other side though, sad to say. It reminds me a little of something said about children, or rather about having them: that people who have children and people who don't always feel sorry for each other. Not quite the same, and I don't quite agree with that, but there's something there, something similar. I've never been closer to Africa than Engineers Without Borders videos, but the unique mystery of that old land is, well, legendary. Actually, of all the countries I have visited, I felt most at home in Israel. I'm 4th generation Canadian, neither Jewish nor Muslim, so go figure, but it just felt like home. (Costa Rica is a fantastic place too. What spirit!) But I ended up back here anyway, something about family, maybe. An interesting sidebar! Demographic dispersion: the search for comfort. You mean an emotional comfort rather than a physical one? A bit post-modern as a mover of men I think. I don't think you need go that far. Species disperse over the land according to the available resources, the limitations being those of the environmental conditions the species can adapt to. In other words, they'll disperse as widely as possible. People even do that in a lift (elevator), there have been studies of it. As usual, there's another, opposing instinct: to huddle together, the herd instinct, for defence and protection. The two should find a balance, ideally. Individually (also as usual), there'll be those on either side of the norm that for the community as a whole might be ideal. From the community's point of view, this helps us survive change and to evolve. If it's really that difficult for the individuals on the opposite fringes of this issue (ie an area of concern) to understand each other better than we seem to be doing, especially in this era of the global Internet and (hopefully) the Global Village, maybe we need to evolve just a little more. Best wishes Keith Jesse From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:19:45 +0900 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hello Jesse, Derk, Robert and all IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. What's home? LOL! (What's TV?) Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. Partly, and also with a different take on different stories too. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
At 05:51 PM 2/10/2005, you wrote: Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. I'm a Southron. Back during The War thousands of verses were written to our national anthem, Dixie; one of them went, I thank God every sparklin' morn That he saw fit to have me born in Dixie. Not very different to this: Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. - George Bernard Shaw I've always felt that way, and feel sad for anyone who doesn't feel that way about their natal land. You happen to feel that way so you think everyone should feel that way too, or they're the losers? There's something wrong with them, something missing or dysfunctional? Having said that I did not feel that way about the land of my birth, I added this: Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. To each his own indeed - or should I have pitied all the house-mice (who must stay near to the wall, for the wide expanses of the floor are fraught with unknown perils) with their hidebound horizons, narrow outlook and lack of enterprise? Well, maybe some see it that way, but I don't, and I think I'll manage to struggle along somehow without your pity, thankyou very much, me and the many others like me. And if one is truly fortunate, as their youth ends and they are reborn as an adult, they'll find their heart's homeland, as John Denver described when he wrote, He was born in the summer of his twenty-second year, coming home to a place he'd never been before. He left yesterday behind him, you might say he was born again, you might say he found the key to every door. Walt Keep trying Walt, maybe you'll get there in the end - not to Mr Denver's heart's homeland, discovered at the tender age of 22, there's further to go than that. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
I kinda jumped in the middle of this thread, so I don't know a lot about what came before it. But, I think that this is relevant: http://www.knowledgeboard.com/download/3262/Citizen-of-this-World.htm Mike Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jesse Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. I don't think they imply that. It hasn't been an issue for me, if issue means a problem or difficulty. As I said, it's just the way things panned out. I probably wouldn't have thought about it that much, or not in those terms, had other people not started asking me questions about home and family and so on, mainly because they couldn't find the right label to paste on my forehead and it made them uncomfortable. I guess it was an issue for them. I'd say something like it didn't matter much to me but they couldn't accept that, didn't believe me, kept pestering me about it. That it wasn't an issue for me also seems to have been an issue for them. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. That sounds more like relief than satisfaction. There a great satisfaction in finding that it's the whole planet you're a citizen of, rather than just some little corner of it. IF that's the kind of person you are. Funny... It's one of those divides where each side thinks they can see the other side's position clearly but the other side can't see their position. It seems to me that one side might be right about that and the other isn't, and I think that's because the idea of someone not needing or valuing these ties of home and family is somehow threatening or upsetting to those who do need and value them. I may not need them or value them, but I did not say that they have no value, nor that those who do need them and value them are wrong or misguided. I've watched so many friends live with and through these things, very close friends many of them, it's into it's third generation now, so I have a pretty good idea of what they mean (maybe better in some ways than they do themselves, not being attached, and able to make comparisons). The same can seldom be said of the other side though, sad to say. It reminds me a little of something said about children, or rather about having them: that people who have children and people who don't always feel sorry for each other. Not quite the same, and I don't quite agree with that, but there's something there, something similar. I've never been closer to Africa than Engineers Without Borders videos, but the unique mystery of that old land is, well, legendary. Actually, of all the countries I have visited, I felt most at home in Israel. I'm 4th generation Canadian, neither Jewish nor Muslim, so go figure, but it just felt like home. (Costa Rica is a fantastic place too. What spirit!) But I ended up back here anyway, something about family, maybe. An interesting sidebar! Demographic dispersion: the search for comfort. You mean an emotional comfort rather than a physical one? A bit post-modern as a mover of men I think. I don't think you need go that far. Species disperse over the land according to the available resources, the limitations being those of the environmental conditions the species can adapt to. In other words, they'll disperse as widely as possible. People even do that in a lift (elevator), there have been studies of it. As usual, there's another, opposing instinct: to huddle together, the herd instinct, for defence and protection. The two should find a balance, ideally. Individually (also as usual), there'll be those on either side of the norm that for the community as a whole might be ideal. From the community's point of view, this helps us survive change and to evolve. If it's really that difficult for the individuals on the opposite fringes of this issue (ie an area of concern) to understand each other better than we seem to be doing, especially in this era of the global Internet and (hopefully) the Global Village, maybe we need to evolve just a little more. Best wishes Keith Jesse From: Keith Addison Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:19:45 +0900 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hello Jesse, Derk, Robert and all IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. What's home? LOL! (What's TV?) Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. Partly, and also with a different take on different stories too. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, Mike, Hakan. Hakan said that his experience in Israel had been to remind him of North America. (right? Structural recognition?) Which yeah, I guess, Tel Aviv is quite cosmopolitan. I meant the desert, and the blowing poppy fields above Gallilee, the grazing camels and storks... this was a long time ago, the late '60's. Everyone I met just seemed so confident. There was a good feeling there, like home. Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. I don't think they imply that. It hasn't been an issue for me, if issue means a problem or difficulty. As I said, it's just the way things panned out. I probably wouldn't have thought about it that much, or not in those terms, had other people not started asking me questions about home and family and so on, mainly because they couldn't find the right label to paste on my forehead and it made them uncomfortable. I guess it was an issue for them. I'd say something like it didn't matter much to me but they couldn't accept that, didn't believe me, kept pestering me about it. That it wasn't an issue for me also seems to have been an issue for them. Keith, as forum supervisor, probably presenting opposing views improves the quality of the discussion. Phliosophically, however, it is at odds with our topic. I have not meant to have you feel put on the spot about your choice of home! I don't think I even went there. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. That sounds more like relief than satisfaction. There a great satisfaction in finding that it's the whole planet you're a citizen of, rather than just some little corner of it. IF that's the kind of person you are. As Mike's link illustrates, this is wonderfully evolved thinking. Which doesn't mean Walt is wrong to love his home! Or that anyone is. I thank God every sparklin' morn That he saw fit to have me born in Dixie. I've always felt that way, and feel sad for anyone who doesn't feel that way about their natal land. Funny... It's one of those divides where each side thinks they can see the other side's position clearly but the other side can't see their position. Might also be one of those situations where the participants actually agree, but are not yet satisfied with the articulation of the conflict. Some of the longest arguments of all are based on that one! It seems to me that one side might be right about that and the other isn't, and I think that's because the idea of someone not needing or valuing these ties of home and family is somehow threatening or upsetting to those who do need and value them. I may not need them or value them, but I did not say that they have no value, nor that those who do need them and value them are wrong or misguided. I've watched so many friends live with and through these things, very close friends many of them, it's into it's third generation now, so I have a pretty good idea of what they mean (maybe better in some ways than they do themselves, not being attached, and able to make comparisons). The same can seldom be said of the other side though, sad to say. It reminds me a little of something said about children, or rather about having them: that people who have children and people who don't always feel sorry for each other. Not quite the same, and I don't quite agree with that, but there's something there, something similar. Lots of choices have regret either way. I've never been closer to Africa than Engineers Without Borders videos, but the unique mystery of that old land is, well, legendary. Actually, of all the countries I have visited, I felt most at home in Israel. I'm 4th generation Canadian, neither Jewish nor Muslim, so go figure, but it just felt like home. (Costa Rica is a fantastic place too. What spirit!) But I ended up back here anyway, something about family, maybe. An interesting sidebar! Demographic dispersion: the search for comfort. You mean an emotional comfort rather than a physical one? A bit post-modern as a mover of men Yes! I definitely mean emotional. And this IS a post-modern concept, we are in fact post-modern. I think. I don't think you need go that far. Species disperse over the land according to the available resources, the limitations being those of the environmental conditions the species can adapt to. In other words, they'll disperse as widely as possible. People even do that in a lift (elevator), there have been studies of it. As usual, there's another, opposing instinct: to huddle together, the herd instinct, for defence and protection. The two should find a balance, ideally. Individually (also as usual), there'll be those on either side of the norm that for the community as a whole might be ideal. From the community's point of
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Having said that I did not feel that way about the land of my birth, I added this: Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. No, I don't - I think you're a sad person who seems to need to attack others in order to exorcise some internal demon. Life is a rough and uncertain affair, and we are all the children of heroes - every community is worth cherishing even by those who leave them behind. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Oh oh, Walt's gonna get slammed now. Keith, don't be a hothead. Walt's talking about community. Jesse From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:03:43 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion At 04:22 AM 2/11/2005, Keith wrote: Having said that I did not feel that way about the land of my birth, I added this: Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. No, I don't - I think you're a sad person who seems to need to attack others in order to exorcise some internal demon. Life is a rough and uncertain affair, and we are all the children of heroes - every community is worth cherishing even by those who leave them behind. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
At 04:22 AM 2/11/2005, Keith wrote: Having said that I did not feel that way about the land of my birth, I added this: Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. No, I don't - I think you're a sad person who seems to need to attack others in order to exorcise some internal demon. LOL! But who's doing the attacking, Walt? That wasn't an attack? No, I don't - I think you're a sad person who seems to need to attack others in order to exorcise some internal demon. What was it then? I didn't attack you. I didn't exactly agree with you either, but I didn't attack you. So, like I've told some of your friends, go and look in a mirror. Have a good, long look. Actually, you're wrong (again), on all counts. I'm not at all a sad person, and I think most people here would be surprised at such an assessment. The thousands of visitors to our website who write to us in appreciation would be baffled. The latest one just told me I make othres to smile. As for exorcising inner demons, maybe you should try that yourself. The reason you think (?) this stuff is that you have to - it's that or face the unpleasant need to exorcise an inner demon, which most people, regardless of their love for their place of birth, will travel to the ends of the earth to avoid doing. I don't attack others for any inner reasons, I seldom attack them at all, or not initially - it's not THEM I attack, or more aptly question, or counter, so much as what they've said. They'll have trouble with me here, and elsewhere, if they're less than honest and forthright. And what all this stems from, your scapegoating me this way (it's no news to me, by the way), is an exchange here just on a year ago between you and a whole bunch of list members, including me, mainly but not entirely over your denialist right-wing stance over such things as Saddam's WMD, in which you were rather less than honest and forthright. The main thread was called Weapons of mass deception, you can find it in the archives. There wasn't any question that Saddam had WMD, the only question was what he'd done with them. - Walt And so on and on. Asked, as usual, for substantiation, all we got, as usual, was bluster. Such as this: I can assure you that I've thought about unsubscribing more than once in the last few weeks due to the level of partisan hatred that's dominated the list of late. I come here to learn about biofuel, not to hear rants from folks who hate Bush. - Walt One list member told you onlist not to swagger around like some testosterone saturated teenager looking for trouble. Another wrote to me offlist: What patience you've got. I would have lopped Walt off at the knees. And since he doesn't use his ears, they would have been catfish bait were it left to me. I think I gave up long ago trying to sway those suffering from lack of social conscience and in a perpetual state of mental ineptitude. So much for inner demons driving me to attack people. And you're still sore about it. Poor old Walt, too bad. As for your attachment to your birthplace, this snippet from that thread might amplify it a little: Southron was and remains the term for a person who supported the Confederate States of America, as opposed to someone who just happened to live in the southeast. - Walt Life is a rough and uncertain affair, and we are all the children of heroes - every community is worth cherishing even by those who leave them behind. ALL communities are worth cherishing, Mr Patrick, from the tiniest and most obscure hamlet all the way up to the global community itself, including ALL citizens of Planet Earth, not just the humans. And THAT doesn't leave a lot of room for destroying other people's faraway communities over a bunch of LIES about WMDs, DOES IT? And no, I couldn't give an ounce of catfish excrement whether you agree or not. No need to reply. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Yep. Keith, don't be a hothead. Coolheaded. Walt's talking about community. Nope. Best Keith Jesse From: Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:03:43 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion At 04:22 AM 2/11/2005, Keith wrote: Having said that I did not feel that way about the land of my birth, I added this: Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. No, I don't - I think you're a sad person who seems to need to attack others in order to exorcise some internal demon. Life is a rough and uncertain affair, and we are all the children of heroes - every community is worth cherishing even by those who leave them behind. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, Mike, Hakan. Hakan said that his experience in Israel had been to remind him of North America. (right? Structural recognition?) Which yeah, I guess, Tel Aviv is quite cosmopolitan. I meant the desert, and the blowing poppy fields above Gallilee, the grazing camels and storks... this was a long time ago, the late '60's. Everyone I met just seemed so confident. There was a good feeling there, like home. Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. I don't think they imply that. It hasn't been an issue for me, if issue means a problem or difficulty. As I said, it's just the way things panned out. I probably wouldn't have thought about it that much, or not in those terms, had other people not started asking me questions about home and family and so on, mainly because they couldn't find the right label to paste on my forehead and it made them uncomfortable. I guess it was an issue for them. I'd say something like it didn't matter much to me but they couldn't accept that, didn't believe me, kept pestering me about it. That it wasn't an issue for me also seems to have been an issue for them. Keith, as forum supervisor, probably presenting opposing views improves the quality of the discussion. Jesse, I do distinguish between my two roles here, I'm careful about it. When I'm wearing the List owner's hat I say so and I make it clear. Otherwise I'm just another list member, with the same obligations and privileges as all other list members. Phliosophically, however, it is at odds with our topic. I don't think I agree with that, or not as I understand you. But none of this was in my mind when I responded to you, that's how I feel, not for any reasons of policy or whatever. I have not meant to have you feel put on the spot about your choice of home! I don't think I even went there. I'm not feeling put on the spot, I hope you're not either. Anyway, I don't have a home. I think it's worth discussing, and worth my saying what I feel about it, because not a lot of people are going to propose this point of view and I think it matters, others have said so too. I don't claim any credit for it and don't even feel that way about it (I said it just panned out the way), but since this is where I am I might as well say so, eh? And, probably, expect to be misunderstood. That won't upset me, we can just go on discussing it until we do understand each other. Normal sort of social behaviour, no? Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. That sounds more like relief than satisfaction. There a great satisfaction in finding that it's the whole planet you're a citizen of, rather than just some little corner of it. IF that's the kind of person you are. As Mike's link illustrates, this is wonderfully evolved thinking. Which doesn't mean Walt is wrong to love his home! Or that anyone is. Of course not - I've said at least twice that indeed it doesn't mean that (though there's them as doesn't want to see it that way, for their own reasons). I thank God every sparklin' morn That he saw fit to have me born in Dixie. I've always felt that way, and feel sad for anyone who doesn't feel that way about their natal land. Funny... It's one of those divides where each side thinks they can see the other side's position clearly but the other side can't see their position. Might also be one of those situations where the participants actually agree, but are not yet satisfied with the articulation of the conflict. Yes, partly at least. Some of the longest arguments of all are based on that one! It seems to me that one side might be right about that and the other isn't, and I think that's because the idea of someone not needing or valuing these ties of home and family is somehow threatening or upsetting to those who do need and value them. I may not need them or value them, but I did not say that they have no value, nor that those who do need them and value them are wrong or misguided. I've watched so many friends live with and through these things, very close friends many of them, it's into it's third generation now, so I have a pretty good idea of what they mean (maybe better in some ways than they do themselves, not being attached, and able to make comparisons). The same can seldom be said of the other side though, sad to say. It reminds me a little of something said about children, or rather about having them: that people who have children and people who don't always feel sorry for each other. Not quite the same, and I don't quite agree with that, but there's something there, something similar. Lots of choices have regret either way. I don't think that was about regret. I've never been closer to Africa than Engineers Without Borders
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion snip And no, I couldn't give an ounce of catfish excrement whether you agree or not. /snip Whahahahahaha ! You breakin' me up. Luc Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
both hubby and I felt like visitors. We don't live there anymore. Maybe because there are two of us, both from similar culture and transplanted together, that our new home really feels like home. I would say home is where your dreams come true. Bright Blessings, Kim At 02:49 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote: IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical. Humans are gregarious, but they don't really adapt well. Jesse From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:14:58 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Robert, Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. Derek -- Original message from robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister! I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to live as a guest in someone else's country. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experiences this disharmony. Sometimes, I'm astonished at the contrast in perspectives, given that we live relatively close to one another, speak the same language and share many cultural values. Some Americans think that Canada is either one step away from communist, or so very much the same that there are no significant differences between the countries. There certainly ARE differences, but they are subtle. It has been an education and a valued one. Indeed! I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. She's been to Europe a few times already and really appreciates the diversity of views and experience there. Europe is not without its problems, however, and she's not naive. I would be sad to see her go, only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like the only thinking person in my entire family. robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
I am finding this rather interesting. I went back to Canada last year and both hubby and I felt like visitors. We don't live there anymore. Maybe because there are two of us, both from similar culture and transplanted together, that our new home really feels like home. I would say home is where your dreams come true. Bright Blessings, Wasn't it Joel Garreau who noted that home is where you understand the sons-of-b**ches. Always made sense to me. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. What's home? LOL! (What's TV?) Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. Partly, and also with a different take on different stories too. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical. Humans are gregarious, but they don't really adapt well. Humans don't adapt? That's exactly what they DO do, more so than any other species except perhaps Nordic rats and cockroaches, our noble partners in life! It's our ability to adapt that has put us at the pinnacle of the species pile, as much as anything else. It's the story of our evolution. Culturally? Different perhaps, or perhaps not. Roots, yes, sure, but we are not trees! (More's the pity! LOL!) Einstein said that you can't be happy too far from where you were born, but methinks he was confusing the relative with the relatives. I was born in Cape Town. I was never very happy in Cape Town, I wanted to leave from an early age. And leave I did. I was never very happy when I went back either, and the further I'd been the less happy I'd be. Now, much later, the last couple of times I've been there have been interesting, from the point of view of retracing some old steps to gain a better perspective, that kind of thing, but there's no feeling of home, of this is where I belong or anything like that. Same applies to South Africa, with the exception of a larger sense, in that South Africa is part of Africa, and I discovered about 15 years ago that if anything I'm an African, and it doesn't much matter exactly where in that rather large continent. There are things about Africa that move me, which others who've been with me but were not Africans were oblivious to. Maybe I'll end up there, who knows. In the meantime, though I've lived in many places, I've never thought of any of them as home, nor thought of staying there permanently. Now I have no immediate family left. I mourned them when they died, but family is not something I miss or feel any lack of, any more than home is. Home's where you hang your hat, and blood is not thicker than water. I had two brothers, both dead now, neither of them was related to me in any way, but both meant much more to me than my real brother ever did. Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. I didn't plan for it to be this way, it's just that that's how it panned out. But I'm not the only one, there are many of us who live like this. Some people transplant, and live in their new homes quite happily. Others keep moving on. Rolling stones gathering no moss? Well maybe - I don't have a mortgage anyway! As for moss, it hasn't been aimless or just whimsical, there's reason and substance to it, it makes an integrated picture, it makes sense, not chaos. I'm not lacking for moss. But there's more than one kind of moss. Just my 2, um, yen. Regards Keith Jesse From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:14:58 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Robert, Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. Derek -- Original message from robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister! I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to live
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Brian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:19 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hello Jesse, Derk, Robert and all IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. What's home? LOL! (What's TV?) Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. Partly, and also with a different take on different stories too. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical. Humans are gregarious, but they don't really adapt well. Humans don't adapt? That's exactly what they DO do, more so than any other species except perhaps Nordic rats and cockroaches, our noble partners in life! It's our ability to adapt that has put us at the pinnacle of the species pile, as much as anything else. It's the story of our evolution. Culturally? Different perhaps, or perhaps not. Roots, yes, sure, but we are not trees! (More's the pity! LOL!) Einstein said that you can't be happy too far from where you were born, but methinks he was confusing the relative with the relatives. I was born in Cape Town. I was never very happy in Cape Town, I wanted to leave from an early age. And leave I did. I was never very happy when I went back either, and the further I'd been the less happy I'd be. Now, much later, the last couple of times I've been there have been interesting, from the point of view of retracing some old steps to gain a better perspective, that kind of thing, but there's no feeling of home, of this is where I belong or anything like that. Same applies to South Africa, with the exception of a larger sense, in that South Africa is part of Africa, and I discovered about 15 years ago that if anything I'm an African, and it doesn't much matter exactly where in that rather large continent. There are things about Africa that move me, which others who've been with me but were not Africans were oblivious to. Maybe I'll end up there, who knows. In the meantime, though I've lived in many places, I've never thought of any of them as home, nor thought of staying there permanently. Now I have no immediate family left. I mourned them when they died, but family is not something I miss or feel any lack of, any more than home is. Home's where you hang your hat, and blood is not thicker than water. I had two brothers, both dead now, neither of them was related to me in any way, but both meant much more to me than my real brother ever did. Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. I didn't plan for it to be this way, it's just that that's how it panned out. But I'm not the only one, there are many of us who live like this. Some people transplant, and live in their new homes quite happily. Others keep moving on. Rolling stones gathering no moss? Well maybe - I don't have a mortgage anyway! As for moss, it hasn't been aimless or just whimsical, there's reason and substance to it, it makes an integrated picture, it makes sense, not chaos. I'm not lacking for moss. But there's more than one kind of moss. Just my 2, um, yen. Regards Keith Jesse From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:14:58 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Robert, Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. Derek -- Original message from robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
I was married to an American for 10 years, and although we lived in several countries she still could not relate to others except in an American fashion. And led me to believe that you can remove the American from America but you are going to have a great deal of difficulty removing America from the American. And *that* is a problem. As I have said before, Americans are not stupid, quite the contrary, it is rarely necessary to explain something, even complex things, more than once, and they get it, so then what is it ? It is cutural isolation, and a reinforced sensation of the we are the world mind set. America, the country, is a very vast and beautiful place, and I have travelled it extensively, and were it not for the starta of politically motivated hubris most encounters with the population there would be a pleasant experience. However, that said, there still leaves the mountain of intentional blindness about the rest of the world and it's customs, peoples and languages, religions ect. In order for that to be overcome the American has to consciously join the international community in mind set.We here are a positive step in that direction. Luc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Robert, Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. Derek ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
While this statement isn't original, but remember America is a country of immigrants. A good many of those immigrants where steeped in American mythology long before the immigrated and that mythology could have been their impetus to immigrate. Some of the traits we Americans may have are rooted in the traits brought here by Europeans and others starting over 500 years ago. None of this isn't to say America hasn't lost her moral compass, she has and not for the reasons the moral majority and the radical right would have us believe. Doug - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion : G'day Derek; : : I was married to an American for 10 years, and although we lived in several : countries she still could not relate to others except in an American : fashion. And led me to believe that you can remove the American from America : but you are going to have a great deal of difficulty removing America from : the American. And *that* is a problem. : As I have said before, Americans are not stupid, quite the contrary, it is : rarely necessary to explain something, even complex things, more than once, : and they get it, so then what is it ? It is cutural isolation, and a : reinforced sensation of the we are the world mind set. : America, the country, is a very vast and beautiful place, and I have : travelled it extensively, and were it not for the starta of politically : motivated hubris most encounters with the population there would be a : pleasant experience. However, that said, there still leaves the mountain of : intentional blindness about the rest of the world and it's customs, peoples : and languages, religions ect. : In order for that to be overcome the American has to consciously join the : international community in mind set.We here are a positive step in that : direction. : Luc : - Original Message - : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:14 AM : Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion : : : Hi Robert, : : Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! : : Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for : about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good : understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my : wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before : and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking : that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is : just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when : they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't : experienced it myself. : Derek : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place that really makes sense. Every place is delicately different from every other place. But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal. No new mysteries. Interesting new people, with the same take on the same stories. How can this exist, I donno. This insight about your wife, Derek, really rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other countries. There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place where nobody else can go. This must be a species thing, or a primordial DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical. Humans are gregarious, but they don't really adapt well. Jesse From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:14:58 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Robert, Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. Derek -- Original message from robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister! I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to live as a guest in someone else's country. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experiences this disharmony. Sometimes, I'm astonished at the contrast in perspectives, given that we live relatively close to one another, speak the same language and share many cultural values. Some Americans think that Canada is either one step away from communist, or so very much the same that there are no significant differences between the countries. There certainly ARE differences, but they are subtle. It has been an education and a valued one. Indeed! I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. She's been to Europe a few times already and really appreciates the diversity of views and experience there. Europe is not without its problems, however, and she's not naive. I would be sad to see her go, only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like the only thinking person in my entire family. robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Robert, Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose! Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for about 20 years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more about him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does about me after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same background. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself. Derek -- Original message from robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister! I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to live as a guest in someone else's country. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experiences this disharmony. Sometimes, I'm astonished at the contrast in perspectives, given that we live relatively close to one another, speak the same language and share many cultural values. Some Americans think that Canada is either one step away from communist, or so very much the same that there are no significant differences between the countries. There certainly ARE differences, but they are subtle. It has been an education and a valued one. Indeed! I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. She's been to Europe a few times already and really appreciates the diversity of views and experience there. Europe is not without its problems, however, and she's not naive. I would be sad to see her go, only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like the only thinking person in my entire family. robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi, I have to echo what Hakan has said, and what Keith has said on other occasions. With the exception of a few hotspots I find that people are pretty tolerant of others. As long as someone traveling realizes that the are a guest, and act as a guest, they are generally well accepted regardless of whichever country they hail from. Many people have issues with the US government. LOL - I have issues with the US government. But, they don't necessarily carry that over to their relationships with US citizens. So, if one travels with a low profile, dresses modestly, listens rather than talks, tries to learn rather than to teach, has a bit of humility rather than arrogance, etc., I don't think they should hesitate to travel. Derek -- Original message from Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Luc, I do not think that the climate have changed that much, when it comes to individuals that travel. This of course assuming that you are not going directly to the trouble spots. It was interesting to see that you have been in Western Samoa, which I found to be one of the true paradises left on earth. Small country with a population like a medium size city and one of the poorest in the world. Despite that poverty and bad health normally goes together, they are an exception and one of the healthiest. I was there around 20 years ago and stayed at Aggie Gray's bungalow hotel, this when she was still alive and around 90 years old. Quite a tough lady with a very large family. I am 63 now and my wife 57, we still enjoy travelling very much and have been in around 60 countries each, my travelling has been mostly in business and my wife mostly as tourist. Our trip to Vietnam last year, was interesting and we enjoyed it very much. Hakan At 01:59 PM 2/7/2005, you wrote: G'day Derek; Not my sister, someone else's, however you make interesting points. I have lived in Canada, the US, New Zealand and Australia and have travelled to New Caledonia, Fiji, Tahiti, as well as The Samoas (Western and American) and can say with all assuredness that it certainly IS an education. The return to North America was rather brutal after having been away for about 8 years, and this back in the 80's before the increased insanity. Being the little white ball between a European spouse and a US family has got to be highly interesting. Old Europe has a much longer history and much more culture than the US ever will, so there is inevitably a clash, ha! Back a few years ago I was a advocate of people getting out and traveling the world, especially young people. Good for the mental processes, however of late I am no longer certain travel is a good idea given the climate that has been created, not that it still wouldn't benefit, there is just so much more animocity out there now, and well deserved I might add. Luc - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air, I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. The reasons were varied, partly economic, partly to reduce work stress, and partly to improve my family life. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. The so called reverse culture shock is also interesting. Many things that before would have been so normal as to not even have reached the surface of my awareness now cause discomfort. It has been an education and a valued one. I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. Derek ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air, I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. The reasons were varied, partly economic, partly to reduce work stress, and partly to improve my family life. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. The so called reverse culture shock is also interesting. Many things that before would have been so normal as to not even have reached the surface of my awareness now cause discomfort. It has been an education and a valued one. I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. Derek -- Original message from Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- G'day Derek; We all have influence. There isn't a single person alive that doesn't have it, at least in their own parameters, some more, some less, but all have it. The trick/solution when combining cultures and traditions is not so much to create a melting pot where all become one with different shades of colour, but rather where all can co-habitate while continuing with their traditions and cultural heritage where they are but without infriging upon the right of others to do the same. Where modifications to this comes nto play is where those certain cultural heritages clash violently or where the host country's traditions and culture is cast aside and a new one attempted to be implanted. Where the later is the case it somewhat negates the reason for one leaving his/her native homeland in the first place eh? Why not just stay there if all is well and no meaningful changes are in order ? It boils down to what a person deems acceptable or not acceptable, livable or intolerable. Luc - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion That has me wondering how many people about the world the almost 3000 members of this List influence. Derek Hargis Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, et. al., Yes, that is what I had in mind. Kim had mentioned how much she valued the interaction on this list, something that I also value, and feel that many value. It is/has been an education and even an inspiration. At the same time, for the world in general, I feel that to move forward on many fronts we need something of a paradigm shift. I have also just about given up on the leadership of my home country (USA) and many others to actually lead us toward a better future. I see us stuck in a rut and going the wrong way extremely fast! I think the needed change will have to come from the bottom rather than from the top. I see the Internet as one way to promote communication between people, without intermediaries and their spin. Hakan mentioned the below quoted bit about the influence each person can have on so many others. This led me to think of the potential for global change that our conversations here on this list, across so many frontiers, cultures, religions, languages, etc., may possibly have. Derek -- Original message from Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Hello Derek Hi, Yes, VERY many! And I don't believe you're passive about it, and not without any effect. Your sister's not alone in wanting to leave, and certainly not to be blamed for it either (not that I could blame anyone for such a thing, with all my comings and goings for most of my life!). But think of what Hakan's just been telling Luc about how many other Iraqis one dead Iraqi will influence - one living American who feels strongly about these things, even if she moves to Europe, will influence just as many others: that's not to say convince, necessarily, but influence, sway, yes. And there are many millions of you. That has me wondering how many people about the world the almost 3000 members of this List influence. Well, this is what Hakan said: If you look at behavioral statistics for the humans, the mathematics goes like this, - On average a person will have and can manage around 10 very close relationship on the level of family and relatives. The 300,000 killed, represent 3 million who lost a family member, killed by US. If anyone killed members of your family, how good is the chance that you are more inclined to join the resistance, instead of giving the killers your hearts and mind? - On average a person have around 30 close friends, with frequent contacts. The 300,00 killed, represent that around 9 million people lost a friend, killed by US. If anyone killed your friend, how good is the chance that you are more inclined to join the resistance, instead of giving the killers your hearts and mind? - On average a person have around 60 people, that he/she know and have infrequent contacts with. The 300,000 killed, represent that around 18 million people knew someone killed by US. If anyone killed someone you knew, how good is the chance that you are more inclined to join the resistance, instead of giving the killers your hearts and mind? If you only think about the above, almost all Iraqis have been touched by a killing performed by US ... I'm sure Hakan's got it right, as usual. I read once that if four people sat down together at a table, between them, and the people they knew, and the people *they* knew, and so on and on, they were connected with everyone in the world... and I could never figure out whether that was far-fetched or not. Maybe not. Change only takes a few, and they're always there and ready for it when the time comes, when the time is right society responds and is renewed. Or as Margaret Mead said (and Toynbee, and Jung): Never underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has. We can but hope. Regards Keith Derek Hargis Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Not my sister, someone else's, however you make interesting points. I have lived in Canada, the US, New Zealand and Australia and have travelled to New Caledonia, Fiji, Tahiti, as well as The Samoas (Western and American) and can say with all assuredness that it certainly IS an education. The return to North America was rather brutal after having been away for about 8 years, and this back in the 80's before the increased insanity. Being the little white ball between a European spouse and a US family has got to be highly interesting. Old Europe has a much longer history and much more culture than the US ever will, so there is inevitably a clash, ha! Back a few years ago I was a advocate of people getting out and traveling the world, especially young people. Good for the mental processes, however of late I am no longer certain travel is a good idea given the climate that has been created, not that it still wouldn't benefit, there is just so much more animocity out there now, and well deserved I might add. Luc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air, I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. The reasons were varied, partly economic, partly to reduce work stress, and partly to improve my family life. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. The so called reverse culture shock is also interesting. Many things that before would have been so normal as to not even have reached the surface of my awareness now cause discomfort. It has been an education and a valued one. I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. Derek Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Luc, I do not think that the climate have changed that much, when it comes to individuals that travel. This of course assuming that you are not going directly to the trouble spots. It was interesting to see that you have been in Western Samoa, which I found to be one of the true paradises left on earth. Small country with a population like a medium size city and one of the poorest in the world. Despite that poverty and bad health normally goes together, they are an exception and one of the healthiest. I was there around 20 years ago and stayed at Aggie Gray's bungalow hotel, this when she was still alive and around 90 years old. Quite a tough lady with a very large family. I am 63 now and my wife 57, we still enjoy travelling very much and have been in around 60 countries each, my travelling has been mostly in business and my wife mostly as tourist. Our trip to Vietnam last year, was interesting and we enjoyed it very much. Hakan At 01:59 PM 2/7/2005, you wrote: G'day Derek; Not my sister, someone else's, however you make interesting points. I have lived in Canada, the US, New Zealand and Australia and have travelled to New Caledonia, Fiji, Tahiti, as well as The Samoas (Western and American) and can say with all assuredness that it certainly IS an education. The return to North America was rather brutal after having been away for about 8 years, and this back in the 80's before the increased insanity. Being the little white ball between a European spouse and a US family has got to be highly interesting. Old Europe has a much longer history and much more culture than the US ever will, so there is inevitably a clash, ha! Back a few years ago I was a advocate of people getting out and traveling the world, especially young people. Good for the mental processes, however of late I am no longer certain travel is a good idea given the climate that has been created, not that it still wouldn't benefit, there is just so much more animocity out there now, and well deserved I might add. Luc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air, I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. The reasons were varied, partly economic, partly to reduce work stress, and partly to improve my family life. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. The so called reverse culture shock is also interesting. Many things that before would have been so normal as to not even have reached the surface of my awareness now cause discomfort. It has been an education and a valued one. I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. Derek ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister! I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to live as a guest in someone else's country. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experiences this disharmony. Sometimes, I'm astonished at the contrast in perspectives, given that we live relatively close to one another, speak the same language and share many cultural values. Some Americans think that Canada is either one step away from communist, or so very much the same that there are no significant differences between the countries. There certainly ARE differences, but they are subtle. It has been an education and a valued one. Indeed! I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. She's been to Europe a few times already and really appreciates the diversity of views and experience there. Europe is not without its problems, however, and she's not naive. I would be sad to see her go, only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like the only thinking person in my entire family. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
- Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion snip I would be sad to see her go, only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like the only thinking person in my entire family. /snip That would be two of you :-) and you both left (or are planning on it), LOL! Luc robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
For those that do not have this opportunity to broaden their perceptions of the world -- Buy a good shortwave radio and use it. Kirk --- robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luc, As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to Europe from her homeland for a bit of fresh air Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister! I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a total of fifteen years. I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to live as a guest in someone else's country. I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear and a US viewpoint in the other from my US family. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experiences this disharmony. Sometimes, I'm astonished at the contrast in perspectives, given that we live relatively close to one another, speak the same language and share many cultural values. Some Americans think that Canada is either one step away from communist, or so very much the same that there are no significant differences between the countries. There certainly ARE differences, but they are subtle. It has been an education and a valued one. Indeed! I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an education and I don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't. She's been to Europe a few times already and really appreciates the diversity of views and experience there. Europe is not without its problems, however, and she's not naive. I would be sad to see her go, only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like the only thinking person in my entire family. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hello Robert (This is robert's attempt at clarification) Our foreign policy feeds from the well of our culture. I have a couple of Arabic friends (a Palestinian and a Lebanese) who complain that decadence in our society, especially consumerism and the weird depravity of fundamentalist Christianity, drives the exporting of violence overseas and perpetuates misery among oppressed people. (To which Keith responded) Hm, that's a little different. And your reply: Indeed! The difference between the moderate western perspective on this and that of any fundamentalist (I really hate that word!) is one of what to DO about the perceived immorality. I don't believe that convincing someone to be moral at the barrel of a gun is an effective method of changing behavior. Islamists who advocate violence are on no higher moral ground than the culture they so fervently despise. What you've said now is that rather than their wanting to change/destroy the West, they see these things as part of the drive that visits evils upon their own countries, which sounds more like it's the effects of it that they suffer themselves that they hate, rather than just hating the West because of Westerners' domestic behaviour: I don't believe they're motivated by what Westerners do in the West. I'm trying to contrast the approach of fundamentalists (whoever THEY are) with those of moderates. The decadence of our society certainly drives us to accumulate wealth, often at the expense of oppressed people overseas, and our culture frequently projects the consequences of this resource acquisition upon others. This fuels hatred of the West in general, and the United States in particular. Am I wrong to make this linkage? Maybe we're saying the same basic thing, but I'm misunderstanding what you've written. Using violence to combat this problem only perpetuates violence; therefore, those who advocate violence as a solution to violence cannot claim moral superiority. I assert this is true of BOTH SIDES in the conflict. (again, this is robert's previous post) Is this true in Libya? Can the same be said in Algeria? I've never been to these places and perhaps my cultural bias is showing. If you have evidence to the contrary, even if it's anecdotal, I would appreciate hearing of it. (and Keith's reply) I think you can't paint them with such a broad brush, or you're making the same mistake as those who accuse us here of hating America(ns) and so on if we criticise Washington. Fair enough. (this is robert's eschatological view) I'm not writing clearly, else you would understand. We Americans will be the cause of our eventual demise. Our fiery end will not be instigated by radical Islamists; the responsibility will be lain squarely at our own feet. (and Keith's reasoned response) And the effects, rippling worldwide as they do now? Absolutely. The much maligned TTAPS report predicted dire global consequences of a nuclear strike of as little as 100 megatons. That's a small percentage of the U.S. submarine arsenal alone. The ugly head of a winnable nuclear war has arisen again, albeit quietly, among military planners in my country. Yeah. But, butbutbut... there are also so many signs there of regeneration and resistance, so many fine people who are not decadent and have the courage and conviction to resist what they see as wrong in any way they can. We're so fortunate to have many of them with us here (including you!), and I'm so grateful for that, and to be able to discuss these things - and anything - with you here. Thank you! I am not without hope, Keith. There will come a time when those of us who are reasonable and cooperative will lead the way for confused neighbors who can't comprehend the scope of what is happening in the world. To a degree, this is already happening. However, most of the people around me are too comfortable and content with their conspicuous consumption to listen. In a crisis, things may be different. Yes, VERY many! And I don't believe you're passive about it, and not without any effect. Your sister's not alone in wanting to leave, and certainly not to be blamed for it either (not that I could blame anyone for such a thing, with all my comings and goings for most of my life!). But think of what Hakan's just been telling Luc about how many other Iraqis one dead Iraqi will influence - one living American who feels strongly about these things, even if she moves to Europe, will influence just as many others: that's not to say convince, necessarily, but influence, sway, yes. And there are many millions of you. To quote a famous Canadian: Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world, than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled. (Neal Peart) robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi, Huge Snip Yes, VERY many! And I don't believe you're passive about it, and not without any effect. Your sister's not alone in wanting to leave, and certainly not to be blamed for it either (not that I could blame anyone for such a thing, with all my comings and goings for most of my life!). But think of what Hakan's just been telling Luc about how many other Iraqis one dead Iraqi will influence - one living American who feels strongly about these things, even if she moves to Europe, will influence just as many others: that's not to say convince, necessarily, but influence, sway, yes. And there are many millions of you. That has me wondering how many people about the world the almost 3000 members of this List influence. Derek Hargis Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
We all have influence. There isn't a single person alive that doesn't have it, at least in their own parameters, some more, some less, but all have it. The trick/solution when combining cultures and traditions is not so much to create a melting pot where all become one with different shades of colour, but rather where all can co-habitate while continuing with their traditions and cultural heritage where they are but without infriging upon the right of others to do the same. Where modifications to this comes nto play is where those certain cultural heritages clash violently or where the host country's traditions and culture is cast aside and a new one attempted to be implanted. Where the later is the case it somewhat negates the reason for one leaving his/her native homeland in the first place eh? Why not just stay there if all is well and no meaningful changes are in order ? It boils down to what a person deems acceptable or not acceptable, livable or intolerable. Luc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion That has me wondering how many people about the world the almost 3000 members of this List influence. Derek Hargis Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi, Huge Snip Yes, VERY many! And I don't believe you're passive about it, and not without any effect. Your sister's not alone in wanting to leave, and certainly not to be blamed for it either (not that I could blame anyone for such a thing, with all my comings and goings for most of my life!). But think of what Hakan's just been telling Luc about how many other Iraqis one dead Iraqi will influence - one living American who feels strongly about these things, even if she moves to Europe, will influence just as many others: that's not to say convince, necessarily, but influence, sway, yes. And there are many millions of you. That has me wondering how many people about the world the almost 3000 members of this List influence. Well, this is what Hakan said: If you look at behavioral statistics for the humans, the mathematics goes like this, - On average a person will have and can manage around 10 very close relationship on the level of family and relatives. The 300,000 killed, represent 3 million who lost a family member, killed by US. If anyone killed members of your family, how good is the chance that you are more inclined to join the resistance, instead of giving the killers your hearts and mind? - On average a person have around 30 close friends, with frequent contacts. The 300,00 killed, represent that around 9 million people lost a friend, killed by US. If anyone killed your friend, how good is the chance that you are more inclined to join the resistance, instead of giving the killers your hearts and mind? - On average a person have around 60 people, that he/she know and have infrequent contacts with. The 300,000 killed, represent that around 18 million people knew someone killed by US. If anyone killed someone you knew, how good is the chance that you are more inclined to join the resistance, instead of giving the killers your hearts and mind? If you only think about the above, almost all Iraqis have been touched by a killing performed by US ... I'm sure Hakan's got it right, as usual. I read once that if four people sat down together at a table, between them, and the people they knew, and the people *they* knew, and so on and on, they were connected with everyone in the world... and I could never figure out whether that was far-fetched or not. Maybe not. Change only takes a few, and they're always there and ready for it when the time comes, when the time is right society responds and is renewed. Or as Margaret Mead said (and Toynbee, and Jung): Never underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has. We can but hope. Regards Keith Derek Hargis Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
The heritage splits at Ishmael an Isaac. This is where it gets tricky. And please understand that BOTH the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac are BLESSED. But they are two distinct blessings and some would say that the blessing placed on ishmael was more like a curse. The promise was given to Abraham :your descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky: That promise was fullfilled in Isaac not Ishmael. Ishmael Was the son of Hagar, the slave of sarai Abram's wife and therefore was Illegitimate and not a true son. This is what the Angel of the Lord spoke over Ishmael Genesis 16:11 The angel of the LORD also said to her: You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers. In Genesis 22:2 The Lord Called Isaac Abraham's only son further confirming Ishmaels Illegitimacy Abraham loved Ishmael and pleaded with God to bless Ishmael also. The Lord said to him In Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Are you sure this is what they advocate violence over? Some of them (VERY close friends of the US) do so as a penalty in their own countries, but that's not what you're talking of. Bin Laden has been very clear about this, so have many others. I don't believe they're motivated by what Westerners do in the West. Primarily they wanted US troops out of Saudi Arabia, and they objected to US support for Israel. Our foreign policy feeds from the well of our culture. I have a couple of Arabic friends (a Palestinian and a Lebanese) who complain that decadence in our society, especially consumerism and the weird depravity of fundamentalist Christianity, drives the exporting of violence overseas and perpetuates misery among oppressed people. Admittedly, this idea derives from a small sampling, and perhaps I should be careful not to broadly characterize a region on the basis of such limited contact. However, these are intelligent men whom I have come to trust and I've formed the basis of my view in light of their counsel. If I am in error in thinking this way, please enlighten me. Again, it's foreign policy, not domestic cultural issues. This smacks rather too strongly of the They hate us for our freedoms nonsense. I concede the point, Keith. I should have thought of that more carefully. The finest hour I have ever witnessed in my life as an American occurred shortly after the 11 September atrocities. I know that I've written this before, but the sight of a Virginia State Trooper parked outside a mosque to protect its worshippers underscores the value of plurality in American society. The same courtesy would not likely be extended to a Christian church in Algeria, Libya, Syria and many other countries. Are you quite sure about that Robert? No. What are you saying, that they're all fundamentalists, that their governments and authorities are fundamentalist? No, that isn't what I was trying to communicate. Tolerance for the diversity of religious practice in my country, at least at an official level, is quite high. Is this true in Libya? Can the same be said in Algeria? I've never been to these places and perhaps my cultural bias is showing. If you have evidence to the contrary, even if it's anecdotal, I would appreciate hearing of it. And that finest hour in the US hasn't had a very wonderful follow-up, has it? Ask Cat Stevens, for one of far too many instances. Again, no. We've really burned up our credibility with the rest of the world, haven't we? What disturbs me about that is the grim fact that so many of my fellow citizens don't really care. That is God's problem, not yours, not mine, and certainly not theirs! We will go as it has been written about us, without the assistance of radical Islamists. That might ring a little more true if you'd added: ... or Christian fundamentalists. I'm not writing clearly, else you would understand. We Americans will be the cause of our eventual demise. Our fiery end will not be instigated by radical Islamists; the responsibility will be lain squarely at our own feet. Decadence is part of our problem, and the iron fisted backlash of the NeoCons and their ilk are merely the another face of the same die. One of my sisters phoned me tonight in tears over this issue. She's so disgusted by what's going on that she wants to move to Europe. No one could successfully accuse her of being a Christian, she's certainly NOT a fundamentalist of any kind, but she's as American as anyone else born in my country. Many of us are absolutely sickened by what we're experiencing over here. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Robert ; You know this is such a fascinating thread for me, and please believe me there is no offence intended for anyone, because I ponder this subject and consider the possiblity that I could be wrong or mis-informed. We exchange ideas; it's part of learning and growing. It's ok to be wrong, or mis-informed. That kind of thing happens to me all the time! First, I would say that it is not really fair to compare western moderates to Islamic fundamentalists. Was I doing that? Grief! When Jesus was on the earth HE never said C'mon let's FIGHT those sinners, and He never said C'mon we need to pass laws and lock them up. Why not? The answer is people must do the right thing of their own accord, and anything less is an illusion. Jesus would be locked up by the fundamentalists for being soft on sin! The finest hour I have ever witnessed in my life as an American occurred shortly after the 11 September atrocities. I know that I've written this before, but the sight of a Virginia State Trooper parked outside a mosque to protect its worshippers underscores the value of plurality in American society. But isn't this a good example of changing behavior at the barrel of a gun? No. I'm writing about the rule of law. Islam and other religions remain equal under American law, and that is something noble; an egalitarian principle I wholeheartedly support. I felt very angry that day, but even in my ugliest mood I would never have thought to harm a mosque or the worshippers therein; that would be unAmerican. Not everyone sees this my way, and therefore, that Virginia State Trooper served as a deterrent. There were scattered incidents of abuses toward people of differing religions in the days and weeks that followed, illustrating the need for that Virginia police officer's posting. Most of us, however, were appalled at any backlash Muslims (and mistakenly, Sikhs) endured. And aren't we doing the same thing in Iraq and the average voter approves? Is depleted uranium a good way to spread democracy? Is this the moderate western perspective? Sorry to say, we are the Great Satan they call us. We are the nation described in Revelation 13. (How appropriate!) We have two horns like a lamb, but we speak like a dragon. We look Christian, but we are not. Most people outside the United States can understand this. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hello Robert, Ken This is robert's remark: I have a problem when the term Christian Fundamentalist is used to describe the racist, book - burning and intolerant zealots who behave in a manner utterly contrary to the clear teachings of social justice found in the scriptures; To which Keith replied: I believe all true Christians probably have a problem with that, and not only Christians - it seems that when it comes to religion, when people claim it's fundamentalist, the one thing it doesn't have much to do with is the fundamentals! Yes, like love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, and do not repay evil with evil, but overcome evil with good. True fundamental religion is deeply concerned about social justice and elevating humanity. On this, we agree. - perhaps arrogance? Pride has it's place, it's not necessarily negative: pride in a good job well done, for instance. It can be little different to self-respect. But wouldn't the pride that comes before a fall be more arrogance than pride? After all, you can say, Have you no pride? or you can say, Have you no shame? and it means exactly the same thing. Not so with arrogance, though: arrogance carries the silent prefix empty - it always protests too loudly, it's nothing more than insecurity, and in so much it's probably well-founded. The Greeks used the word hubris in describing the condition to which I refer. English is not my first language, and sometimes the nuance of expression eludes me. ... doesn't that perhaps suggest that what's stirred in you is worth something more deserving and, indeed, more noble than just a country, than any country can be? Wouldn't this noble feeling always find a mere nation wanting? Maybe you should keep the feeling and find more worthy symbols to summon it with, rather than these nationalistic trappings. Ah, but I am very much a product of the culture in which I was raised. I know in an intellectual manner that a colorful rag means nothing (though it can serve quite nicely as a god), but the ideas behind the symbol stir my heart. Who wouldn't find liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion concepts worthy of utmost respect? These are supposed to be the undergirding principles upon which our nation was founded, and it may be difficult for foreigners to grasp how profoundly these ideas are impressed upon us from a very young age. We are taught to believe that America stands for these principles, and to define ourselves as Americans with these ideals. I learned the extent of my conditioning when I moved to Canada, discovering that people up here often define themselves in terms of what is NOT American, rather than what IS Canadian. (Luc and Ed, does this ring true?) You often contrast America, the government, from America, its people. I simply cannot see the distinction, though I remain firmly opposed to our policies and the misery they spread across the globe. Hakan is disconcertingly right about this. But it's not just the dispensationalist eschatology, it's their weird alliances with the neo-cons, recycled Reaganists and Straussians. It's remarkable that such mismatched alliances can hold together for so long (if they are). They are all merely different shades of the same color, Keith. The root of their perspective lies in the view that our world is a hostile place, and that only a firm and moral hand can navigate the nation through it. (This is why Mr. Bush won the election, according to the news media.) Dispensationalism is pabulum fed to the masses in church on Sunday; too confusing to be understood, too bizarre to be believed by anyone with a critical mind. Its companion thought control corporate spin spews like sewage from Fox, CNN and right wing talk radio. This, coupled with relentless advertising, builds a culture overwhelmed with information; much of it outright deception. It's all orchestrated and manipulated by people who see the world as a hostile environment. They tell us, without respite, that we need force and punishment to make the world safe. In this view, security = freedom. Let us take care of the bad guys. You can live the American dream, amass consumer goods and go to church so that everyone knows you're a good person. It's like a flash flood rising up to the neck. It sweeps the average citizen along in its irresistable tide. We can spend one million dollars per day incarcerating foreigners in Cuba. We can spend 85 billion dollars to destroy Iraq. We can nurse corporations at the Federal Government's breast with impunity, but woe to anyone who even suggests that such money might be better invested in education, national infrastructure, or (God forbid!) helping those dirty foreigners who hate us. That kind of talk is labeled Tax and Spend Liberalism. It's like a black hole, Keith. I think they despise what your government does in your name.
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Acurate, except it leaves open the falsehood that the present occupiers of the political State of Israel are the decendants of the Hebrews, which they are not. They are Khazar, a racial mix of Fino-Turk origin more commonly asociated with an east aisian mongol tribe than anything closely resembling a semitic heritage. I dealt with this whole thing at length (some will say way too much length,ha!) and can be found in the archives Oil and Israel. References and links to support the claim. Luc - Original Message - From: Jeremy Tracy Longworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion The heritage splits at Ishmael an Isaac. This is where it gets tricky. And please understand that BOTH the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac are BLESSED. But they are two distinct blessings and some would say that the blessing placed on ishmael was more like a curse. The promise was given to Abraham :your descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky: That promise was fullfilled in Isaac not Ishmael. Ishmael Was the son of Hagar, the slave of sarai Abram's wife and therefore was Illegitimate and not a true son. This is what the Angel of the Lord spoke over Ishmael Genesis 16:11 The angel of the LORD also said to her: You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers. In Genesis 22:2 The Lord Called Isaac Abraham's only son further confirming Ishmaels Illegitimacy Abraham loved Ishmael and pleaded with God to bless Ishmael also. The Lord said to him In Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
snip Who wouldn't find liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion concepts worthy of utmost respect? These are supposed to be the undergirding principles upon which our nation was founded, and it may be difficult for foreigners to grasp how profoundly these ideas are impressed upon us from a very young age. We are taught to believe that America stands for these principles, and to define ourselves as Americans with these ideals. I learned the extent of my conditioning when I moved to Canada, discovering that people up here often define themselves in terms of what is NOT American, rather than what IS Canadian. (Luc and Ed, does this ring true?) snip Greetings, Yes the concepts of liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion are worthy of respect. It is sad so few have any for them. Freedom of religion??? I have met extremely few Americans that actually believe that, and most of them I have met are on this list. To most Americans, freedom of religion means that it is okay to be a Quaker or Mormon. Jehovah's Witness is dicey, forget being Pagan. There are court battles going on right now, over the custody of children, the issue: Mom is a Witch, therefore it is the duty of the court to remove the children to a family member that is Christian. And yes, if you really want me to I can give specifics. While I am not Luc or Ed, I did spend my first 35 years in Canada. Canada has its own conditioning, as I suspect each county does. And yes, much of Canada's conditioning is anti American. This point is brought home to us very strongly every time we visit Canada, especially when the subject of citizenship comes up. The fact that we are willing to give up being Canadian to have the right to vote where we live is not understood. If the world had the tolerance and ability to communicate that I find on this list, I think we would have a much more peaceful world. To those who do not think that peace is possible, I hold up this list as an example of what is possible. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Kim, Luc, and all [snip] While I am not Luc or Ed, I did spend my first 35 years in Canada. Canada has its own conditioning, as I suspect each county does. And yes, much of Canada's conditioning is anti American. This point is brought home to us very strongly every time we visit Canada, especially when the subject of citizenship comes up. The fact that we are willing to give up being Canadian to have the right to vote where we live is not understood. If the world had the tolerance and ability to communicate that I find on this list, I think we would have a much more peaceful world. To those who do not think that peace is possible, I hold up this list as an example of what is possible. Bright Blessings, Kim We all have a lot in common on this list: we all have computers, we have a few minutes a day to read all the mail, we are fascinated by the outrageous, logic-defying developments in our world. A lot of people think that fuel is the issue of the century: its abuse, the quest for it, the political railroading to justify the destruction of the planet to get it... It's huge. What is a national border in the face of this? American, Canadian... it's going to be meaningless. Oops, not to everyone, I guess. First somebody will thrash out who gets sovereignty over the Northwest Passage, wreck the culture of the indigenous Innuit, and perfect wind turbine shipping. THEN we can all be happy together. HA! It's a crappy scenario. but there are some up sides. I like thinking about locally grown food, less trucking, decentralization, and community. I hope my four kids will have secure and productive lives. That's what everyone thinks, isn't it? Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
At 01:32 AM 2/4/2005, you wrote: snip Who wouldn't find liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion concepts worthy of utmost respect? These are supposed to be the undergirding principles upon which our nation was founded, and it may be difficult for foreigners to grasp how profoundly these ideas are impressed upon us from a very young age. We are taught to believe that America stands for these principles, and to define ourselves as Americans with these ideals. I learned the extent of my conditioning when I moved to Canada, discovering that people up here often define themselves in terms of what is NOT American, rather than what IS Canadian. (Luc and Ed, does this ring true?) snip Greetings, Yes the concepts of liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion are worthy of respect. It is sad so few have any for them. Freedom of religion??? I have met extremely few Americans that actually believe that, and most of them I have met are on this list. To most Americans, freedom of religion means that it is okay to be a Quaker or Mormon. Jehovah's Witness is dicey, forget being Pagan. There are court battles going on right now, over the custody of children, the issue: Mom is a Witch, therefore it is the duty of the court to remove the children to a family member that is Christian. And yes, if you really want me to I can give specifics. While I am not Luc or Ed, I did spend my first 35 years in Canada. Canada has its own conditioning, as I suspect each county does. And yes, much of Canada's conditioning is anti American. This point is brought home to us very strongly every time we visit Canada, especially when the subject of citizenship comes up. The fact that we are willing to give up being Canadian to have the right to vote where we live is not understood. If the world had the tolerance and ability to communicate that I find on this list, I think we would have a much more peaceful world. To those who do not think that peace is possible, I hold up this list as an example of what is possible. That's great Kim! Don't forget to take the credit, eh? You're very much a part of that, as is Robert, and indeed the whole list community. Thankyou, and Bright Blessings, to you too. Keith Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Keith Addison wrote: Are you sure this is what they advocate violence over? Some of them (VERY close friends of the US) do so as a penalty in their own countries, but that's not what you're talking of. Bin Laden has been very clear about this, so have many others. I don't believe they're motivated by what Westerners do in the West. Primarily they wanted US troops out of Saudi Arabia, and they objected to US support for Israel. Our foreign policy feeds from the well of our culture. I have a couple of Arabic friends (a Palestinian and a Lebanese) who complain that decadence in our society, especially consumerism and the weird depravity of fundamentalist Christianity, drives the exporting of violence overseas and perpetuates misery among oppressed people. Hm, that's a little different. This is what Peter said: ... but I think they hate the entirety of the western culture. Sex before marriage, divorce, adultery, navel rings (and more extreme forms of body piercing), tatoos, Madonna, Brittany, gay marriages, Baywatch, the Fashion Channel, pornography, discos, atheism (or any God other than Alah). And your reply: Indeed! The difference between the moderate western perspective on this and that of any fundamentalist (I really hate that word!) is one of what to DO about the perceived immorality. I don't believe that convincing someone to be moral at the barrel of a gun is an effective method of changing behavior. Islamists who advocate violence are on no higher moral ground than the culture they so fervently despise. What you've said now is that rather than their wanting to change/destroy the West, they see these things as part of the drive that visits evils upon their own countries, which sounds more like it's the effects of it that they suffer themselves that they hate, rather than just hating the West because of Westerners' domestic behaviour: I don't believe they're motivated by what Westerners do in the West. Admittedly, this idea derives from a small sampling, and perhaps I should be careful not to broadly characterize a region on the basis of such limited contact. However, these are intelligent men whom I have come to trust and I've formed the basis of my view in light of their counsel. If I am in error in thinking this way, please enlighten me. No, I wouldn't disagree with that. Again, it's foreign policy, not domestic cultural issues. This smacks rather too strongly of the They hate us for our freedoms nonsense. I concede the point, Keith. I should have thought of that more carefully. The finest hour I have ever witnessed in my life as an American occurred shortly after the 11 September atrocities. I know that I've written this before, but the sight of a Virginia State Trooper parked outside a mosque to protect its worshippers underscores the value of plurality in American society. The same courtesy would not likely be extended to a Christian church in Algeria, Libya, Syria and many other countries. Are you quite sure about that Robert? No. What are you saying, that they're all fundamentalists, that their governments and authorities are fundamentalist? No, that isn't what I was trying to communicate. Tolerance for the diversity of religious practice in my country, at least at an official level, is quite high. It's supposed to be, but I think there's another side to it. Is this true in Libya? Can the same be said in Algeria? I've never been to these places and perhaps my cultural bias is showing. If you have evidence to the contrary, even if it's anecdotal, I would appreciate hearing of it. I think you can't paint them with such a broad brush, or you're making the same mistake as those who accuse us here of hating America(ns) and so on if we criticise Washington. And that finest hour in the US hasn't had a very wonderful follow-up, has it? Ask Cat Stevens, for one of far too many instances. Again, no. We've really burned up our credibility with the rest of the world, haven't we? What disturbs me about that is the grim fact that so many of my fellow citizens don't really care. Yes. I think you and I have reached this point before, haven't we? But on the other hand, so many of them DO care. (Did I say that before at this stage too?) That is God's problem, not yours, not mine, and certainly not theirs! We will go as it has been written about us, without the assistance of radical Islamists. That might ring a little more true if you'd added: ... or Christian fundamentalists. I'm not writing clearly, else you would understand. We Americans will be the cause of our eventual demise. Our fiery end will not be instigated by radical Islamists; the responsibility will be lain squarely at our own feet. And the effects, rippling worldwide as they do now? Decadence is part of our problem, and the iron fisted backlash of the NeoCons and their ilk are merely the another face
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
snip - perhaps arrogance? Pride has it's place, it's not necessarily negative: pride in a good job well done, for instance. It can be little different to self-respect. But wouldn't the pride that comes before a fall be more arrogance than pride? After all, you can say, Have you no pride? or you can say, Have you no shame? and it means exactly the same thing. Not so with arrogance, though: arrogance carries the silent prefix empty - it always protests too loudly, it's nothing more than insecurity, and in so much it's probably well-founded. The Greeks used the word hubris in describing the condition to which I refer. English is not my first language, and sometimes the nuance of expression eludes me. You do very well indeed! Hubris will do nicely - hubris and nemisis closely echoes pride going before a fall. As for nuances, that's probably just me being pedantic about it, perhaps a dictionary might not agree. But I think it's a useful distinction, a clarification. snip We saw something of that here before the last election or-whatever-you-want-to-call-it when several foreigners (!?) complained, sort of, about not having a vote in the world's greatest democratic election when the outcome would probably affect them as much as it would an American voter, or something like that (with some hilariously out of synch American responses). That was a difficult thread for me to read. But you persevered instead of lashing out, as many would do. I felt like I was standing with one foot on each side of a widening chasm. Maybe we all felt like that, in one way or another, and that's why they were complaining, though it wasn't quite complaining. I've often felt it, not just mild, semi-teasing complaints like these were but outright fury ... some benighted fool from the world's greatest democracy who might know where Texas is but would ask me where I'm from (obviously not Texas) and I'd say Cape Town - Where's that? - South Africa - Oh, Africa - would get to vote in a government that would do the most terrible things in Africa, of which he'd remain cosily oblivious, and no African ever got a say in it. Is that why you said this? You often contrast America, the government, from America, its people. I simply cannot see the distinction, though I remain firmly opposed to our policies and the misery they spread across the globe. Hakan is disconcertingly right about this. Well, that guy does exist, no doubt about that (sorry, I'm not picking on Texas, any state would do), and he and his would seem to have it going all their own way right now (but I don't believe it, though they sure are making the most noise). It's not just me who makes that distinction, I think most of the world does, and I think it's real. I simply cannot see the distinction, though I remain firmly opposed to our policies and the misery they spread across the globe. That IS the distinction, isn't it? Washington's creed too often is that of the schoolyard bully - might is right, and the bully can make it stick because he's able to hurt anyone who disagrees. Do most Americans really think like that? Perhaps disregard international relations for the moment - do they tend to treat each other that way by and large, in their neighbourhoods and communities? Isn't this more like what the colorful rag invokes in you? Right is might, and the most effective use of power is to refrain from its use. Isn't that more truly American than the schoolyard bully? Regards Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
I'm gonna ask a stupid question, cuz I really don't know the answer -- why do the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US LOVE the US, while the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the Arab world (mostly Sunni's, correct me if I'm wrong) tend more toward DESPISING the US? It can't really be about religion It isn't, at least, not entirely. We Americans are steeped in a culture that glorifies the nation, very much like the Romans glorified their own nation. I have a problem when the term Christian Fundamentalist is used to describe the racist, book - burning and intolerant zealots who behave in a manner utterly contrary to the clear teachings of social justice found in the scriptures; however, the label applies to a large group of people who suffer from nationalistic, linguistic (Why can't the rest of the world learn to speak English!) ethnic and religious pride. I love my country, too. Keith might raise his eyebrows at this, but the sight of an American flag, or the singing of our national anthem stirs something deep and noble within my soul. What it rouses in me is a sense of what America SHOULD be, and a solemn regret of what it actually is. We're on a path that will lead to our destruction. I've been warning about this for a long time now. The Arab fundamentalists would have very little fuel to spread their fires of intolerance were it not for decades of American duplicity and meddling in the affairs of other nations; often for access to resources that enrichen our corporations and corrupted political entities overseas, leaving their local populations destitute and oppressed at the hands of leadership our government supports. Our foreign policy with respect to Israel and its neighbors, is informed by a convoluted, bizarre, dispensationalist eschatology that twists scripture and deceives people into believing we're doing God's will by spreading misery around the world. I can tell by the tenor of posts on this list alone that much of the world doesn't really understand this. They don't despise us as human beings. They despise what we do. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Ken and Robert ; They don't despise us as human beings. They despise what we do. Not an expert by any means, and valid points about the actions of the US government, but I think they hate the entirety of the western culture. Sex before marriage, divorce, adultery, navel rings (and more extreme forms of body piercing), tatoos, Madonna, Brittany, gay marriages, Baywatch, the Fashion Channel, pornography, discos, atheism (or any God other than Alah). I received a spam email titled Extreme female ejaculations. Like I should open it. It is an outrage, but no one cares. They view western culture as a modern equivalent of Sodom and Gomorrah. And from where I'm standing, any objective observer must admit they have a valid point. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Ken and Robert ; Not an expert by any means, and valid points about the actions of the US government, but I think they hate the entirety of the western culture. Sex before marriage, divorce, adultery, navel rings (and more extreme forms of body piercing), tatoos, Madonna, Brittany, gay marriages, Baywatch, the Fashion Channel, pornography, discos, atheism (or any God other than Alah). I received a spam email titled Extreme female ejaculations. Like I should open it. It is an outrage, but no one cares. Indeed! The difference between the moderate western perspective on this and that of any fundamentalist (I really hate that word!) is one of what to DO about the perceived immorality. I don't believe that convincing someone to be moral at the barrel of a gun is an effective method of changing behavior. Islamists who advocate violence are on no higher moral ground than the culture they so fervently despise. The finest hour I have ever witnessed in my life as an American occurred shortly after the 11 September atrocities. I know that I've written this before, but the sight of a Virginia State Trooper parked outside a mosque to protect its worshippers underscores the value of plurality in American society. The same courtesy would not likely be extended to a Christian church in Algeria, Libya, Syria and many other countries. They view western culture as a modern equivalent of Sodom and Gomorrah. And from where I'm standing, any objective observer must admit they have a valid point. That is God's problem, not yours, not mine, and certainly not theirs! We will go as it has been written about us, without the assistance of radical Islamists. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Robert ; You know this is such a fascinating thread for me, and please believe me there is no offence intended for anyone, because I ponder this subject and consider the possiblity that I could be wrong or mis-informed. Indeed! The difference between the moderate western perspective on this and that of any fundamentalist (I really hate that word!) is one of what to DO about the perceived immorality. First, I would say that it is not really fair to compare western moderates to Islamic fundamentalists. I don't believe that convincing someone to be moral at the barrel of a gun is an effective method of changing behavior. This is absolutely, 1000 % true. When Jesus was on the earth HE never said C'mon let's FIGHT those sinners, and He never said C'mon we need to pass laws and lock them up. Why not? The answer is people must do the right thing of their own accord, and anything less is an illusion. Islamists who advocate violence are on no higher moral ground than the culture they so fervently despise. Right! The finest hour I have ever witnessed in my life as an American occurred shortly after the 11 September atrocities. I know that I've written this before, but the sight of a Virginia State Trooper parked outside a mosque to protect its worshippers underscores the value of plurality in American society. But isn't this a good example of changing behavior at the barrel of a gun? And aren't we doing the same thing in Iraq and the average voter approves? Is depleted uranium a good way to spread democracy? Is this the moderate western perspective? Sorry to say, we are the Great Satan they call us. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Ken Provost wrote: I'm gonna ask a stupid question, cuz I really don't know the answer -- why do the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US LOVE the US, while the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the Arab world (mostly Sunni's, correct me if I'm wrong) tend more toward DESPISING the US? It can't really be about religion It isn't, at least, not entirely. We Americans are steeped in a culture that glorifies the nation, very much like the Romans glorified their own nation. I have a problem when the term Christian Fundamentalist is used to describe the racist, book - burning and intolerant zealots who behave in a manner utterly contrary to the clear teachings of social justice found in the scriptures; I believe all true Christians probably have a problem with that, and not only Christians - it seems that when it comes to religion, when people claim it's fundamentalist, the one thing it doesn't have much to do with is the fundamentals! however, the label applies to a large group of people who suffer from nationalistic, linguistic (Why can't the rest of the world learn to speak English!) ethnic and religious pride. - perhaps arrogance? Pride has it's place, it's not necessarily negative: pride in a good job well done, for instance. It can be little different to self-respect. But wouldn't the pride that comes before a fall be more arrogance than pride? After all, you can say, Have you no pride? or you can say, Have you no shame? and it means exactly the same thing. Not so with arrogance, though: arrogance carries the silent prefix empty - it always protests too loudly, it's nothing more than insecurity, and in so much it's probably well-founded. I love my country, too. Keith might raise his eyebrows at this, but the sight of an American flag, or the singing of our national anthem stirs something deep and noble within my soul. What it rouses in me is a sense of what America SHOULD be, and a solemn regret of what it actually is. Not so Robert, I'll accept that without raising an eyebrow. At least I'll accept what the symbols stir in you, if not the symbols themselves. What's stirred, if worthy, outweighs what does the stirring. But this... noble within my soul. What it rouses in me is a sense of what America SHOULD be, and a solemn regret of what it actually is. ... doesn't that perhaps suggest that what's stirred in you is worth something more deserving and, indeed, more noble than just a country, than any country can be? Wouldn't this noble feeling always find a mere nation wanting? Maybe you should keep the feeling and find more worthy symbols to summon it with, rather than these nationalistic trappings. We're on a path that will lead to our destruction. I've been warning about this for a long time now. The Arab fundamentalists would have very little fuel to spread their fires of intolerance were it not for decades of American duplicity and meddling in the affairs of other nations; often for access to resources that enrichen our corporations and corrupted political entities overseas, leaving their local populations destitute and oppressed at the hands of leadership our government supports. Not just the Arabs have been at the sticky end of this, as you know. Our foreign policy with respect to Israel and its neighbors, is informed by a convoluted, bizarre, dispensationalist eschatology that twists scripture and deceives people into believing we're doing God's will by spreading misery around the world. I can tell by the tenor of posts on this list alone that much of the world doesn't really understand this. Many of them do though. There's some good references in the archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35006/ There are rules in Netiquette about criticising religions, especially on a multi-cultural list like this, and I hope you're aware of that, but I have no compunctions about it in this case because this is not a religion, it's an evil cult that's hell-bent on sowing war and destruction at any cost. I'm glad George Monbiot has penned this piece for the Guardian in the UK, because it's so bizarre that non-Americans have a really hard time believing it, and fail to realise its importance. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html Comment US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power George Monbiot Tuesday April 20, 2004 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13750 Fundamentally Unsound By Michelle Goldberg, Salon August 2, 2002 Quite a lot more like that. But it's not just the dispensationalist eschatology, it's their weird alliances with the neo-cons, recycled Reaganists and Straussians. It's remarkable that such mismatched alliances can hold together for so long (if they are). They don't despise us as human beings. They despise what we do. I think
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
on 2/2/05 7:33 AM, Keith Addison at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the attitide of the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US to the Arab world? Judging from the Crusades (a word you still hear occasionally) Yes! And in rather telling circumstances, sometimes. I'd say it's hostile but I'm still unclear about the difference -- it seems as monotheists become more fundamentalist, they should become more like one another, What if it makes them more nationalistic, more ethno-centric, more jingoistic? Then they'll be more like each other, yes, but they'll hate each other too. and in general, less tolerant of the corruption and materialism of governments. But it's not truly fundamental. God is love - you don't hear them saying that a lot, do you? Love thine enemy. If there's a god there at all, it seems to be more of a frontier god, a jealous and insecure god much given to anger and vengeance, the god of the burning bush. Not a Christian god. Yet American fundamentalists just can't get ENOUGH of corruption and materialism -- they seem to love it!-K Is that how they see it? I'm not sure. Regards Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Ken and Robert ; Not an expert by any means, and valid points about the actions of the US government, but I think they hate the entirety of the western culture. Sex before marriage, divorce, adultery, navel rings (and more extreme forms of body piercing), tatoos, Madonna, Brittany, gay marriages, Baywatch, the Fashion Channel, pornography, discos, atheism (or any God other than Alah). I received a spam email titled Extreme female ejaculations. Like I should open it. It is an outrage, but no one cares. Indeed! The difference between the moderate western perspective on this and that of any fundamentalist (I really hate that word!) is one of what to DO about the perceived immorality. I don't believe that convincing someone to be moral at the barrel of a gun is an effective method of changing behavior. Islamists who advocate violence are on no higher moral ground than the culture they so fervently despise. Are you sure this is what they advocate violence over? Some of them (VERY close friends of the US) do so as a penalty in their own countries, but that's not what you're talking of. Bin Laden has been very clear about this, so have many others. I don't believe they're motivated by what Westerners do in the West. Primarily they wanted US troops out of Saudi Arabia, and they objected to US support for Israel. Again, it's foreign policy, not domestic cultural issues. This smacks rather too strongly of the They hate us for our freedoms nonsense. The finest hour I have ever witnessed in my life as an American occurred shortly after the 11 September atrocities. I know that I've written this before, but the sight of a Virginia State Trooper parked outside a mosque to protect its worshippers underscores the value of plurality in American society. The same courtesy would not likely be extended to a Christian church in Algeria, Libya, Syria and many other countries. Are you quite sure about that Robert? What are you saying, that they're all fundamentalists, that their governments and authorities are fundamentalist? I don't think you're on very safe ground - that might apply more to the US right now. And that finest hour in the US hasn't had a very wonderful follow-up, has it? Ask Cat Stevens, for one of far too many instances. They view western culture as a modern equivalent of Sodom and Gomorrah. And from where I'm standing, any objective observer must admit they have a valid point. That is God's problem, not yours, not mine, and certainly not theirs! We will go as it has been written about us, without the assistance of radical Islamists. That might ring a little more true if you'd added: ... or Christian fundamentalists. Best wishes Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
It's a can of worms. The despise part is easiest to answer without opening the can too big. The short of it ? Israel. Luc - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:24 PM Subject: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion I'm gonna ask a stupid question, cuz I really don't know the answer -- why do the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US LOVE the US, while the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the Arab world (mostly Sunni's, correct me if I'm wrong) tend more toward DESPISING the US? It can't really be about religion -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
--- Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day Ken; It's a can of worms. The despise part is easiest to answer without opening the can too big. The short of it ? Israel. Luc - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:24 PM Subject: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion I'm gonna ask a stupid question, cuz I really don't know the answer -- why do the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US LOVE the US, while the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the Arab world (mostly Sunni's, correct me if I'm wrong) tend more toward DESPISING the US? It can't really be about religion -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ dear friend religion is hard wired to homo sapiens brain. this connection is strongly switched on when people are subjected to injustices and oppression. I think this has something to do with survival. If the people of Iraq did not have faith, the whole population will become suicidal. In some cases the chemical reactions in the brain go offbeat and bring about fundamentalism. This fundamentalism exists in ALL religions. Because of 9/11, an average man singles out Muslims. If you ask a man in an Arab street, why they hate USA, their reply would be we do not hate the American people, we hate the US government's policy towards the Arab world. Especially, when it comes to Isreal and her treatment of the palestinian civilians and the killing of palestinian children on an almost daily bases. This blatent double standard is to balme for the hatered of the USA in the Arab world. To spray fuel on this hatered is not in the interest of the USA, as the quarter of the world population is Muslim. I hope this has opened your mind. fox ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Had I known you were out to bait me I would've answered more completely.Opened my mind indeed. Faith has been and will continue to be a leading force in humans, and I will be the first to promote it that way, and have been, give the archives a read. When you assert that all religious entities have had and do have their fanatics, this is a hard fact, and I will act that all these have also been infiltrated by those whose agenda it is to foster strife and discord less all should form any sort of united front against tyranny so where is it that my mind needs to be opened and at what point do you, in your clarity above all others, assess that it was closed before your intervention? You make a flat out declaration that that was so, and I insist on a lucid reply. Luc - Original Message - From: fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion dear friend religion is hard wired to homo sapiens brain. this connection is strongly switched on when people are subjected to injustices and oppression. I think this has something to do with survival. If the people of Iraq did not have faith, the whole population will become suicidal. In some cases the chemical reactions in the brain go offbeat and bring about fundamentalism. This fundamentalism exists in ALL religions. Because of 9/11, an average man singles out Muslims. If you ask a man in an Arab street, why they hate USA, their reply would be we do not hate the American people, we hate the US government's policy towards the Arab world. Especially, when it comes to Isreal and her treatment of the palestinian civilians and the killing of palestinian children on an almost daily bases. This blatent double standard is to balme for the hatered of the USA in the Arab world. To spray fuel on this hatered is not in the interest of the USA, as the quarter of the world population is Muslim. I hope this has opened your mind. fox ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
I'm gonna ask a stupid question, cuz I really don't know the answer -- why do the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US LOVE the US, while the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the Arab world (mostly Sunni's, correct me if I'm wrong) tend more toward DESPISING the US? What is the attitide of the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US to the Arab world? It can't really be about religion ... a horse of many colours... Regards Keith -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
on 2/2/05 7:33 AM, Keith Addison at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the attitide of the traditional conservative fundamentalists in the US to the Arab world? Judging from the Crusades (a word you still hear occasionally) I'd say it's hostile but I'm still unclear about the difference -- it seems as monotheists become more fundamentalist, they should become more like one another, and in general, less tolerant of the corruption and materialism of governments. Yet American fundamentalists just can't get ENOUGH of corruption and materialism -- they seem to love it!-K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
