Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
A bit of overkill indeed, but it did get me thinking if the principle may be used more simply, e.g. with ducting instead of a complete annular space? Also, it would be better if solar penetration were not required at the bottom of the house, especially in winter when the angle of attack is low and the lower floors are likely to be shaded by other buildings. This makes it unsuitable for urban environments, which ought to encourage walking and discourage driving and therefore need to minimize travel distances and maintain pedestrian stimulation. I wonder if one can make it work using roof exposure only. It also got me to thinking about another approach which dispenses with convection but uses the greenhouse principle, and was not uncommon during the Middle Ages. In another sense it has come to be known as micro-architecture, the term being used for anything from choirs and screens and reliquaries in cathedrals in the form of miniature buildings, to the medieval cupboard-bed. The idea in the present sense is that of a room within a room: a piece of furniture that is well sunned through the windows during a winter day, which is snug and enclosable, well insulated with rugs, and small enough to capitalize on body heat, so that it remains warm while the annular space cools down towards morning. In summer the rugs may be removed and the sides opened and the cupboard-bedroom becomes part of the now-well-ventilated outer room. It does rather appropriately add another meaning to the word solar in the sense of a medieval upper chamber where one might expect to find a cupboard-bed, even though the term is derived from the Old French for floor, beam, floor joist, and hence upstairs. -Dawie - Original Message From: Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 5:31:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House Hi Mike all, i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill! We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and not ment for everybodys means! A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website the ability of wood to even out differences of humidity and therefore act as a catalizer. Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers! The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive. I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the whole wall is considered as a full Logwall. This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means! My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer! Fritz - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
I have a book published in 1983 called Sun/earth buffering and superinsulation by Don Booth. It talks all about envelope houses, which seem to be much the same as the Enertia concept -- have a double envelope with thermal mass in the inner space and solar heated air circulating around between them. Z On 5/28/07, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
I've used the cooling component's operating principle in roofs, with mixed success because builders don't take it seriously and leave out the exhaust vents *sigh...* But even an unexhausted but accidentally-leaky convection space helps a lot with cooling.-D - Original Message From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 4:25:18 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
Hi Mike all, i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill! We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and not ment for everybodys means! A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website the ability of wood to even out differences of humidity and therefore act as a catalizer. Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers! The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive. I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the whole wall is considered as a full Logwall. This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means! My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer! Fritz - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
sheetrock does absorb water as does furniture etc. I know because when I lived in the Coachella valley (Indio - Palm Springs) I used evaporative cooling until humid air moved north from the gulf. For the next couple of days the ac condensate line ran water as the house dried out and the ac didnt pull down fast. Then once dried ran normally. Kirk Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike all, i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill! We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and not ment for everybodys means! A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website the ability of wood to even out differences of humidity and therefore act as a catalizer. Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers! The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive. I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the whole wall is considered as a full Logwall. This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means! My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer! Fritz - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
Hi Kirk, sheetrock is known to make Livingaereas very dry as its absorbs lots of humidity from the air with the disadventage of creating mildue! Furniture absorb very little humidity in compare. Evaporativ cooling does not harm furnitures but is not suitible for drywallconstruction Fritz - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House sheetrock does absorb water as does furniture etc. I know because when I lived in the Coachella valley (Indio - Palm Springs) I used evaporative cooling until humid air moved north from the gulf. For the next couple of days the ac condensate line ran water as the house dried out and the ac didnt pull down fast. Then once dried ran normally. Kirk Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike all, i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill! We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and not ment for everybodys means! A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website the ability of wood to even out differences of humidity and therefore act as a catalizer. Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers! The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive. I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the whole wall is considered as a full Logwall. This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means! My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer! Fritz - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House
Sheetrock is as American as Chevrolet. Easily 95% of the houses around here are sheetrocked. I only lived in one house with mildew and that was a rental in California. It actually had standing water underneath it when it rained. Had a moron for a landlord. Kirk Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Kirk, sheetrock is known to make Livingaereas very dry as its absorbs lots of humidity from the air with the disadventage of creating mildue! Furniture absorb very little humidity in compare. Evaporativ cooling does not harm furnitures but is not suitible for drywallconstruction Fritz - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House sheetrock does absorb water as does furniture etc. I know because when I lived in the Coachella valley (Indio - Palm Springs) I used evaporative cooling until humid air moved north from the gulf. For the next couple of days the ac condensate line ran water as the house dried out and the ac didnt pull down fast. Then once dried ran normally. Kirk Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike all, i had a quick look at the Website of enertia,there are some very good aspects in their aproach,but i think this is a kind of overkill! We talking here of basically two Housshells wich are probably very costly and not ment for everybodys means! A significant aspect of full Woodhouses is not even mentionned in this website the ability of wood to even out differences of humidity and therefore act as a catalizer. Everone owns a Loghome would be able to tell that the Klimate in a Loghome is much more natural and better than in conventional built studdwallstructure with all kind of windbarriers and vaporbarriers! The only disadventage,Loghomes are very labourintensive and therefore expensive. I am working since a while on a constructionmethod with double Woodwalls insulated with natural fiber insulation,not using vaporbarriers at all,so the whole wall is considered as a full Logwall. This method is costefficient, easy to assemble for homebuyers and ecological,since the protection of the wood is mainly to constructiv means! My Modelhome should be up by the end of this summer! Fritz - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Solar House http://enertia.com/Science/HowItWorks/tabid/68/Default.aspx Swiped from Digg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. - ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Good points E.Allen; I haven't seen that one. I'll have to look for it. Since you say Faye looked so gorgeous but I take it that was from a better time when actresses didn't have to get naked in order to elicit such a reaction. But then maybe there will be a remake with Halley Berry..? Ya neva know! Joe E. C. wrote: Hey Joe When's the last time you saw the movie "Chinatown" (Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)? point: been there, done that -- as with most corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out! If We The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON (and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity as a time-frame! E. Allen Cartwright --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hey Joe When's the last time you saw the movie Chinatown (Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)? point: been there, done that -- as with most corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out! If We The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON (and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity as a time-frame! E. Allen Cartwright --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America? My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up and running in Europe? Kenji Fuse On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote: I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
To my knowledge there are no hybrid diesels available in North America. Nor any announced for the 2007 model year (among 23 entries). This despite the fact that all the PNGV demonstration vehicles being diesel-electric hybrids. Car makers are generally convinced diesels are taboo in North America. Definitely a hard sell in California, the largest single market and leader on environmental automotive technology. I'm not following Europe as closely, but they don't seem as keen on hybrids in general, preferring efficient diesels (e.g., Smart, several VW models, etc.) I gather the Japanese are also passing on diesel hybrids, but are pursuing more aggressively-EV gasoline-electric hybrids. Alas, my electric-diesel hybrid is still awaiting a controller fix/upgrade before we can do some real-world energy-consumption testing to size the diesel gen-set. Darryl Kenji James Fuse wrote: Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America? My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up and running in Europe? Kenji Fuse On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote: I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/31/psa-peugeot-citroen-unveils-diesel-hybrid-technology/ Citroen is going to introduce a diesel hybrid that gets 70mpg or more. By 2010 perhaps, according to the article. On 3/11/06, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my knowledge there are no hybrid diesels available in North America. Nor any announced for the 2007 model year (among 23 entries). This despite the fact that all the PNGV demonstration vehicles being diesel-electric hybrids. Car makers are generally convinced diesels are taboo in North America. Definitely a hard sell in California, the largest single market and leader on environmental automotive technology. I'm not following Europe as closely, but they don't seem as keen on hybrids in general, preferring efficient diesels (e.g., Smart, several VW models, etc.) I gather the Japanese are also passing on diesel hybrids, but are pursuing more aggressively-EV gasoline-electric hybrids. Alas, my electric-diesel hybrid is still awaiting a controller fix/upgrade before we can do some real-world energy-consumption testing to size the diesel gen-set. Darryl Kenji James Fuse wrote: Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America? My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up and running in Europe? Kenji Fuse On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote: I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hakan, The price depends on volume purchased and it doesn't make much sense. Distilled water costs 60 cents to 1.50 for a gallon depending on brand. 1/2 liter bottled water costs 1 dollar, but at the same store I can buy 1 gallon of the same brand for .80 cents. I just have to walk down the isle instead of grabing it at the checkout counter. Then you can buy filtered water for as cheap as 30 cents a gallon. At least that's the local grocery store here in Louisiana, USA So if you buy water by the 1/2 liter it is more expensive then gas, but gallon by gallon it's 1/3rd the price or cheaper. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency David, I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about the following, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water. Hakan At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being cheaper than water which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its real costs? Thanks, --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hi All, The comparison is kind of ridiculous unless it rains gasolene or diesel in your neck of the woods. Tom From: Marty Phee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:21:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiencyIf you exclude state and fed taxes water is much more valuable than gas.I think gas is 2.39 around me today.Find a spring, put it into a fancy bottle and your rich.Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. Hakan At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote: Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid efficiency
First, it should be noted that, while relative costs can be informative, it is difficult to compare the cost of bottled water to gasoline, diesel, etc. What would the water cost if you brought a 20 gallon tank to the water plant and filled it? What would gasoline cost if sold in 1 liter or 4 liter containers off the shelf? Second: Hybrid automobiles do not necessarily tout to save money. It is a system that uses less fuel/mile. That's less pollution, CO2 etc. The overall cost to operate may be less, or more than conventional, but shouldn't matter. Those who can afford the up front costs should use the technology. (Give up their SUV for a hybrid?). In the long run, it is a valuable investment in our future. Oh yeah, by the way, You'll also run lower than average fuel costs in operation. I'm sure there is a pattern of use (long over road miles vs. short in-town commuting) that will obtain maximum efficiency, and can yield the user monetary benefit over conventional. Those outside the curve may not get the max benefit, but will benefit the world. Cost of battery maintenance/life is an unknown. A similar comparison is solar voltaic electric. Costs now run $25,000-$30,000 US to solar power a house. Depending on where you live the cost and % augmentation required will vary, obviously. Payback is probably 15-20 years. Again, at first more wealthy can afford the technology. But as more and more is purchased and manufactured the cost will come down, technology will improve, and by and by more will be able to afford - until we see micro generation occurring at most houses. Power plants will still be required to supplement, and for industry, but a large percent can be produced this way. Point is, that at first the cost is almost unreachable for most, but further use will bring it in for all, and for the betterment of the world. If as much money were subsidized into solar as they use for nuclear, coal (and the war) etc it wouldn't be too long before we all had collectors on our houses. Hakan, The price depends on volume purchased and it doesn't make much sense. Distilled water costs 60 cents to 1.50 for a gallon depending on brand. 1/2 liter bottled water costs 1 dollar, but at the same store I can buy 1 gallon of the same brand for .80 cents. I just have to walk down the isle instead of grabing it at the checkout counter. Then you can buy filtered water for as cheap as 30 cents a gallon. At least that's the local grocery store here in Louisiana, USA So if you buy water by the 1/2 liter it is more expensive then gas, but gallon by gallon it's 1/3rd the price or cheaper. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency David, I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about the following, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water. Hakan At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpet ro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Or for that matter, an off-peak plug-in hybrid.On 3/9/06, Andrew Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investmentif they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.Andrew NethertonOn 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysisin a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual AprilAuto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involvingthe depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally poweredcounterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners duringthe first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy newsAlternate Energy Resource Network1000+ news sources-resourcesupdated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch You can't have everything. Where would you put it? - Steven Wright ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Take a trip to England or anywhere in Europe and don't forget to rent a car while you are there. When you get back tell us how it went! LOL Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Would depend on your bottled water. retail bottled water usually runs in excess of $1 per litre. retail gasoline is far shy of that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Here's a link I just found on Google for example http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm J Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hi: I pay 1.18 US per liter of a 90 RON gas for my car in Peru!! Oscar Orbegoso Montalva Jefe del Centro de Servicios Económicos de Tarapoto Proyecto PRA Teléfono fijo 042 522633 / 528244 Teléfono celular 042 9695265 http://www.proyectopra.com -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Chip Mefford Enviado el: Jueves, 09 de Marzo de 2006 01:54 p.m. Para: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Asunto: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Would depend on your bottled water. retail bottled water usually runs in excess of $1 per litre. retail gasoline is far shy of that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
particulate emissions? Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel= 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
bob allen wrote: particulate emissions? That's a good question. How do the modern, common rail direct injection diesel engines fare in terms of their particulate emissions? Does anyone know? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
The hybrid could power the house. We could live very differently. And while the hybrid is powering the house if more is needed than is reasonable from the batteries heat is available as well. In fact it would make sense to leave the garage fully charged and have generated where the heat could be used.Kirk"Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City) $2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)My neighbors Prius gets55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City) $2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.htmlDiesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City) $4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)My neighbors Prius gets55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City) $5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330$8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of ahybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you aredoing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to sayVW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make forinteresting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote:I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.Andrew Netherton___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. Hakan At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote: Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
If you exclude state and fed taxes water is much more valuable than gas. I think gas is 2.39 around me today. Find a spring, put it into a fancy bottle and your rich. Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. Hakan At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote: Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being cheaper than water which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its real costs? Thanks, --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
David, I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about the following, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water. Hakan At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being cheaper than water which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its real costs? Thanks, --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Greetings, The cost of water is a funny thing, the smaller the bottle, the more it costs. One gallon of distilled or spring water at Walmart is $0.58 however, a 16.9 oz or 500ml at the check out is $0.99. Other stores are more expensive, but have the same kind of pricing. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:39 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.g ov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Cars Burning Gas in the Drive for Power
This certainly agrees with my personal experience and analysis. In fact, I would go even further. My step-son bought a new 2004 Civic Hybrid in January 2004. The car is very nice. It comfortably seats four adults and the back seat is comfortable for my six-foot, 165-pound frame. However, he has found that it gets between 30 and 40 miles per gallon in his driving. That does not compare particularly favorably with the 35 to 45 my 1996 Civic gets (with over 200,000 miles on it) which also comfortably seats 4 adults. We supported him spending the extra money to get it at the time, but I'm feeling differently now. I don't see the Honda Insight as particularly green either. It's a two seater that gets 70 miles per gallon (according to the hype, which gave the Civic Hybrid close to 50 mpg). That works out to 140 person-miles per gallon at full capacity. As I mentioned, my five-seater 96 Civic really does get 40 mpg (with some tankfuls going as high as 50 mpg). That works out to about 200 person-miles per gallon at full capacity (with minor losses as a result of carrying that much weight). Even with only four people in the car, it gets better mileage than the fully loaded Insight. My wife and I almost never travel alone, so we just about always get better mileage (80 mpg) than the Insight would get with a single driver. I think the hybrid concept has tremendous potential. In fact, I think it could go much further in performance and safety, _while_ getting better mileage, than current IC-only designs. Four independent electric motors would give full-time, fully independent four-wheel drive with no differentials to mess up the delivery of all (or most) of the power to the one wheel that has traction. Distributing the battery pack out to all four wheels would reduce electrical losses and improve the weight distribution and thus safety of the car. Unfortunately, these first attempts are not going this route; they just tack an electric motor onto current designs. Given the wasteful nature of capitalism, I guess we will have to go through this phase to get to that place. John This article reports on the fact that most hybrids actually do not get much better mileage than standard cars. Manufacturers are using the electrical engines to improve performance rather than increase mileage; whereas improved mileage is the reason that these cars qualify for large tax credits. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/automobiles/17hybrid.html?ex=1279252800amp;en=ae427a90941e848damp;ei=5090amp;partner=rssuserlandamp;em c=rss ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
NLRB? OSHA? At least before the present administration. Also, most employment in the US is termed at will either side can fire the other. I agree it's far from perfect, and leads to abuses, but the opposite, making it impossible to fire workers, is worse. I worked some in Bamako, Mali, and no one will hire anyone because they can never be fired. The result? A worker's paradise? Nope. No jobs and no economy. Look at the current donnybrook in France w/ Evian. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for anti-discrimination laws. if you're referring to more than that, please enlighten me. as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA. many states have very poor worker protections. for example, employers in many states can fire an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have one. so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification. leaving it up to the worker to taking legal action, if they can make a solid case. this kind of employer power leads to many workers allowing their employer get away with a whole lot of things from which the law supposedly protects them. best, -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for anti-discrimination laws. if you're referring to more than that, please enlighten me. Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for workers off the top of my head. a) minimum wage b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees) c) OSHA d) EPA e) NLRB f) maternity/paternity leave g) child labor laws You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr shifts 6 days a week. Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined over the past several decades. as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA. many states have very poor worker protections. for example, employers in many states can fire an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have one. so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification. Tthis is called At-will employment and is the norm under US law unless your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in some other countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment (wikipedia has two different pages on this topic) I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should provide some job security provisions? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Federal law DOES provide for job security in very specific circumstances. However, they are not general or all inclusive. I think Germany went down that path with disastrous results. Jobs seem to be for life, regardless of skill or effort not spent in employers behalf. I am pretty sure Japan was on that path and realized it had bad end results in their last economic downturn. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Hayes Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:19 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for anti-discrimination laws. if you're referring to more than that, please enlighten me. Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for workers off the top of my head. a) minimum wage b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees) c) OSHA d) EPA e) NLRB f) maternity/paternity leave g) child labor laws You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr shifts 6 days a week. Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined over the past several decades. as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA. many states have very poor worker protections. for example, employers in many states can fire an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have one. so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification. Tthis is called At-will employment and is the norm under US law unless your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in some other countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment (wikipedia has two different pages on this topic) I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should provide some job security provisions? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
In a message dated 7/11/05 9:19:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for workers off the top of my head. a) minimum wage b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees) c) OSHA d) EPA e) NLRB f) maternity/paternity leave g) child labor laws lol, okay, i deserved that for being too vague. the only two listed, however, which are concrete and very clear to almost anyone, are (a) and (b). most people don't understand their rights under the rest of the items listed and they don't amount to much when, as i stated before, the employer has the kind of hire/fire power that at will (yes, i knew it was called that) allows. and minimum wage is laughably inadequate. those workers that can afford to risk termination because the boss sees them as a trouble-maker, are extremely few. i say again, it is up to the worker to make the case that he/she was fired unjustly (e.g. for whiste-blowing; for refusing to engage in a unsafe work practice; for refusing to drive faster than the speed limit in order to expedite a delivery; etc.). this process doesn't happen overnight, and isn't a sure bet either, if the employer is clever about how he/she goes about that which is being alleged. besides, it's usually more pressing to find another job and restore the revenue stream. i disagree about unions being less attractive because there are so many worker protections today. much more significant is that most people are very cynical about unions for a whole range of reasons, including among other things the fact that they have been incrementally stripped of their effectiveness over the decades by employers who have learned to use loopholes in the law to their advantage. and the fact that they have been so releltnlessly demonized it's almost taken for granted that the uniion leadership will be corrupt. an image which is not entirely without foundation, but which has been exaggerated beyond all reason. of course i don't suggest that employers not be able to fire their employees. but there are still a lot of ways of extending protection to workers. requiring employers to give two weeks notice or two weeks severance (except in cases of theft; vandalism; assault), would be one. -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting rid of these extreemists... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: = Paddy, Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on? Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes. I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks). I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget. Thanks, Earl Kinsley - Original Message - From: "Paddy O'Reilly" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here. Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence budgets of other "superpowers" put together. And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care). So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons of mass destruction isn't. Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term "Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's retirement fund (aka defence budget). As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense. By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American mutated version. The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please di
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Hello Richard Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it? Not heard of them, but there are some previous discussions following a direct democracy initiative in Gibralter planned by list member James, you might find it interesting: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18457.html [biofuel] Direct Democracy The whole thread is linked at the end of the page. Best wishes Keith mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting rid of these extreemists... mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: = Paddy, snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Paddy, Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in National Defense in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the unexpected costs of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on? Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes. I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, we don't count civilian casualties politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks). I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget. Thanks, Earl Kinsley - Original Message - From: Paddy O'Reilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here. Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence budgets of other superpowers put together. And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care). So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons of mass destruction isn't. Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term Heck of an expensive program(me) should be reserved for George Dubya's retirement fund (aka defence budget). As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense. By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American mutated version. The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting rid of these extreemists... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: = Paddy, Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in National Defense in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the unexpected costs of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on? Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes. I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, we don't count civilian casualties politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks). I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget. Thanks, Earl Kinsley - Original Message - From: Paddy O'Reilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here. Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence budgets of other superpowers put together. And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care). So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons of mass destruction isn't. Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term Heck of an expensive program(me) should be reserved for George Dubya's retirement fund (aka defence budget). As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense. By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American mutated version. The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
If you haven't seen the summary pie chart on federal incomes and outlays, I suggest checking out page 74 of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf Bob In a message dated 7/9/2005 1:43:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paddy,Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on?Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.Thanks,Earl Kinsley ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
To me the VW diesels sold in America are the best bang for the buck. They get 50mpg and they can be ran on biodiesel. My total cost per gallon for biodiesel is way less than $1 US. As long as I can make my own fuel I will be making it and I buy nothing but diesels. To me a diesel hybrid is not worth the extra expense because of the hybrid part. Economical diesels are the way to go. Bill From: Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:11:24 -0700 Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost. The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles. Prorated - Who knows. There cost is in the $7000 bracket. So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds. I will admit it is near death. It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway. I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both cars. Assume the same time period and fuel prices. So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry) Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $17,833 Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs. Battery cost $0 total = $891/year So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta) Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $10,244 Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs. Battery cost $0 total = $512/year As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $13,757 Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4 4 x 7000 = $28,000 Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs. total = $2100/year @ 80K battery Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000 Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs. total = $1387/year @ 80K battery As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $7,642 Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3 3 x 7000 = $21,000 Cost per/year = $7,642/20years = $328 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs. total = $1378/year @ 100K battery Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000 Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs. total = $1028/year @ 150K battery Conclusion: Toyota Camry 27mph $891/year Honda Accord$2100/year @ 80K battery 135% higher Honda Accord$1387/year @ 150K battery 56% higher Honda Insight $1387/year @ 100K battery 56% higher Honda Insight $1024/year @ 150K battery 14% higher VW Jetta$512/Year Honda Accord$2100/year @ 80K battery 310% higher Honda Accord$1387/year @ 150K battery 170% higher Honda Insight $1387/year @ 100K battery 170% higher Honda Insight $1024/year @ 150K battery 100% higher So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less expensive. And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds. When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years. But still will not compeate with the diesels. Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits. Just random thoughts. M ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel / turf
Sorry - idle banter and off-topic rant about the state of diesel engines in Ireland. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/1/05 9:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: hello paddy and frantz. i didn't understand this exchange. what's this about turf? wold appreciate the education. -chris In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. just a guess, peat moss? greg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Chris a écrit : Wood gasification, using peat instead of wood? (Burning the 'smoke' in a regular car engine.) exactly But Paddy was right when he objected me that it is not ecological. Peat-bogs are very special habitats for fauna and flora (i.e. carnivorous plants) and they need thousands years to regerenate. We should consider them as fossil carbon preserves (the future oil fields of Ireland ;-) ) and biodiversity preserves. I was kidding because I worked in one turf extraction plant and the boss was running a furnace with it. The smell and the smoke were ... exotic to me. Guinness bier matched well with the smoky taste of the Irish stew cooked in the furnace. Good remembers. But also, I was sorry to see how Ireland was spending it's natural ressources (not only peat, but also chemical pollution or sea overexploitation). I hope that the Irish laws on environment protection have been improved, it's a so nice country. frantz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
In a message dated 6/30/05 8:58:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Unfortunately Ireland is becoming more and more a car-oriented country and cyclists have to take to the pavement/footpath to feel safe. This is in turn desensitising car drivers to the presence of other road users, teaching cyclists to ignore correct rules of the road and cause even more use of cars as parents consider it safer to drive their kids the whole half mile to school rather than have them walk. Great, just wait till the mcdonald franches take hold, those kids will get as heavy as those in the states. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Reminds me of this quote by Ronald Reagan almost 20 years ago: Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. I suppose the idea behind this tax is to make people pay the true cost of burning dino fuels. I have to wonder though for what this tax really pays? Tim Schlueter Missouri -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lloyd Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:36 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel It also interesting to note that tax accounts for 69.9% of the total cost! Can that be right! YES it bloody well is and some places charge up to 7 dollars for a sized US gallon. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.7/34 - Release Date: 29/06/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
hi, frantz. here in the usa we call that car-pooling! -chris In a message dated 6/30/05 5:23:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: co-voiturage (don't know the right translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?). ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
hello paddy and frantz. i didn't understand this exchange. what's this about turf? wold appreciate the education. -chris In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel / turf
In a message dated 7/1/05 9:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: hello paddy and frantz. i didn't understand this exchange. what's this about turf? wold appreciate the education. -chris In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. just a guess, peat moss? greg ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Wood gasification, using peat instead of wood? (Burning the 'smoke' in a regular car engine.) Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel hello paddy and frantz. i didn't understand this exchange. what's this about turf? wold appreciate the education. -chris In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Paddy O'Reilly a écrit : I'm not sure what the average price of gas (aka petrol) is in the US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon. Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price). Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about changing to biofuels. Hi, In France, the average price is around 1,11 Euro per liter of gazoline (unleaded 95, it's more for 98) and 1 Euro for gazole(diesel), due to the huge (about 80% of price) taxes. Compared to sunflower edible oil first price at 1,10 Euro / liter or PLG at 0,66. No legal way for commercial biofuels out of the industrial solution chosen by french gov. People begins to get out of invidualism and use more public transportations or co-voiturage (don't know the right translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?). And I do agree with last words of Paddy, and the political crisis in EU won't help it, especially with the british presidence for the next 6 month according to recent news explaining that the whole agricultural areas of UK could not be enough to reach EU biofuels goals, and how T. Blair is opposed to EU continental countries on agricultural subsidies. What's about running cars with turf in Irland ? ;-) frantz (3 trips in Eire since 1986) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. Unfortunately Ireland is becoming more and more a car-oriented country and cyclists have to take to the pavement/footpath to feel safe. This is in turn desensitising car drivers to the presence of other road users, teaching cyclists to ignore correct rules of the road and cause even more use of cars as parents consider it safer to drive their kids the whole half mile to school rather than have them walk. Frantz DESPREZ wrote: Paddy O'Reilly a écrit : I'm not sure what the average price of gas (aka petrol) is in the US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon. Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price). Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about changing to biofuels. Hi, In France, the average price is around 1,11 Euro per liter of gazoline (unleaded 95, it's more for 98) and 1 Euro for gazole(diesel), due to the huge (about 80% of price) taxes. Compared to sunflower edible oil first price at 1,10 Euro / liter or PLG at 0,66. No legal way for commercial biofuels out of the industrial solution chosen by french gov. People begins to get out of invidualism and use more public transportations or co-voiturage (don't know the right translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?). And I do agree with last words of Paddy, and the political crisis in EU won't help it, especially with the british presidence for the next 6 month according to recent news explaining that the whole agricultural areas of UK could not be enough to reach EU biofuels goals, and how T. Blair is opposed to EU continental countries on agricultural subsidies. What's about running cars with turf in Irland ? ;-) frantz (3 trips in Eire since 1986) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You.begin:vcard fn:Paddy O'Reilly n:O'Reilly;Paddy org:Silicon Software Systems;Digital Consumer Business Unit adr:Model Farm Road;;Cork Business Technology Park;Cork;;;Ireland email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Senior IC Design Engineer tel;work:+353 21 230 2400 url:http://www.s3group.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
The price of gas in UK is striking! Attached is a fuel price report published by The Automobile Association of UK. I calculate the US dollar cost of a US gallon of 95 octane(don't know ethanol content) purchased in the UK to be $5.77. This is closer to the Ireland cost quoted below vs. the England quote. Actually, this report shows Irish gas costing more than English. It also interesting to note that tax accounts for 69.9% of the total cost! Can that be right! In Missouri we pay $.3543/gallon or about 16%. Tim Schlueter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paddy O'Reilly Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:24 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel I'm not sure what the average price of gas (aka petrol) is in the US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon. Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price). Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about changing to biofuels. Bill Vaughn wrote: Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't have a clue. Bill The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
It also interesting to note that tax accounts for 69.9% of the total cost! Can that be right! YES it bloody well is and some places charge up to 7 dollars for a sized US gallon. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.7/34 - Release Date: 29/06/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Greetings, All - The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise. The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that makes them out for what they are is going, going... Gone. Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play with the 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images are very unlikely, but text should be there. What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painful few 'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway). It is up to us... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 6/27/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Hello Tony Greetings, All - The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise. Not really, no. The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that makes them out for what they are is going, going... Gone. Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play with the 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images are very unlikely, but text should be there. That's a good idea - I'll dig up some backups and see what I can find. Thanks! What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painful few 'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway). It is up to us... Yes... and many others like us. Painfully few as a proportion of the whole, it's true, but many in number, and it's growing fast. Look at the growth of the blogosphere, for one instance - sure, there's a lot of woolly nonsense there, but there's a lot of good solid stuff too, that you don't find anywhere else, more and more of it, and it has its effect. Maybe the number's more important than the proportion. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here. Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence budgets of other superpowers put together. And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care). So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons of mass destruction isn't. Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term Heck of an expensive program(me) should be reserved for George Dubya's retirement fund (aka defence budget). As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense. By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American mutated version. The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You.begin:vcard fn:Paddy O'Reilly n:O'Reilly;Paddy org:Silicon Software Systems;Digital Consumer Business Unit adr:Model Farm Road;;Cork Business Technology Park;Cork;;;Ireland email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Senior IC Design Engineer tel;work:+353 21 230 2400 url:http://www.s3group.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Title: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel you can always try the wayback internet time machine. I'm always AMAZED at what it remembers. if it was publicly available, and in a search engine, chances are it is in the time machine http://www.archive.org/web/web.php -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 6/29/2005 3:51 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Hello TonyGreetings, All -The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise.Not really, no.The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that makesthem out for what they are is going, going... Gone.Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play withthe 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images arevery unlikely, but text should be there.That's a good idea - I'll dig up some backups and see what I can find. Thanks!What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painfulfew 'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway).It is up to us...Yes... and many others like us. Painfully few as a proportion of thewhole, it's true, but many in number, and it's growing fast. Look atthe growth of the blogosphere, for one instance - sure, there's a lotof woolly nonsense there, but there's a lot of good solid stuff too,that you don't find anywhere else, more and more of it, and it hasits effect. Maybe the number's more important than the proportion.Best wishesKeith___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't have a clue. Bill From: RobT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400 I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer. It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles. The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high for a marketable car. To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum, magnesium, and titanium components everywhere. Titanium lugnuts? $200 each. Magnesium wheels? I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given economies of scale. Fun stuff to play with, though. So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us. I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. -- RobT ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
I'm not sure what the average price of gas (aka petrol) is in the US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon. Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price). Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about changing to biofuels. Bill Vaughn wrote: Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't have a clue. Bill The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You.begin:vcard fn:Paddy O'Reilly n:O'Reilly;Paddy org:Silicon Software Systems;Digital Consumer Business Unit adr:Model Farm Road;;Cork Business Technology Park;Cork;;;Ireland email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Senior IC Design Engineer tel;work:+353 21 230 2400 url:http://www.s3group.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost. The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles. Prorated - Who knows. There cost is in the $7000 bracket. So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds. I will admit it is near death. It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway. I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both cars. Assume the same time period and fuel prices. So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry) Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $17,833 Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs. Battery cost $0 total = $891/year So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta) Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $10,244 Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs. Battery cost $0 total = $512/year As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $13,757 Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4 4 x 7000 = $28,000 Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs. total = $2100/year @ 80K battery Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000 Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs. total = $1387/year @ 80K battery As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons. Fuel cost avg $1.50 Total fuel cost = $7,642 Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3 3 x 7000 = $21,000 Cost per/year = $7,642/20years = $328 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs. total = $1378/year @ 100K battery Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000 Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328 fuel costs. Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs. total = $1028/year @ 150K battery Conclusion: Toyota Camry 27mph $891/year Honda Accord$2100/year @ 80K battery 135% higher Honda Accord$1387/year @ 150K battery 56% higher Honda Insight $1387/year @ 100K battery 56% higher Honda Insight $1024/year @ 150K battery 14% higher VW Jetta$512/Year Honda Accord$2100/year @ 80K battery 310% higher Honda Accord$1387/year @ 150K battery 170% higher Honda Insight $1387/year @ 100K battery 170% higher Honda Insight $1024/year @ 150K battery 100% higher So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less expensive. And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds. When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years. But still will not compeate with the diesels. Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits. Just random thoughts. M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Vaughn Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:25 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't have a clue. Bill From: RobT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400 I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer. It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles. The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Hello Ted I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid electric/biodiesel vehicles. Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics? http://www.econogics.com/ I read that such products were manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped. Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush administration in favour of the Freedom Car. The technology, paid for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out: Driving In Circles http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution: http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html See PNGV about halfway down: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html Do diesels have a future? There's this, from a post in one of those threads: During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S. auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid concept vehicles, in line with the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicle. Some were more realistic than others, but all had high mileages, and all were unveiled 1998-2001. Interesting that as soon as our current President took office, this initiative left the headlines. But there's also this, from Doyle: Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House partnerships dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion and political cover, not actual clean cars. During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody skateboard called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of one federal supercar program and the creation of another. Being terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with Detroit known as the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, Freedom Car. However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's supercar program shows. At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the new venture would amount to nothing less than a major, even radical, breakthrough. A whole new class of car would follow, he assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect political tool to keep Congress from moving to improve fuel economy, to tout as the industry's global warming fighter, and to help undermine California's electric vehicle program. Meanwhile, as Detroit and Washington became comfortable in their new, 10-year research venture, the Japanese were making real improvements... -- From: Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers There's also this: PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by 2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if the losses would be temporary. Daimler/Chrysler, for example, announced in 2000 that it would not commercialize its diesel hybrid (ESX3) because it cost $7,500 more to make than their comparable gasoline powered car, a Dodge Intrepid. As late as April 2002 General Motors' CEO and President G. Richard Wagoner Jr. told Business Week, How will the economics of hybrids ever match that of the internal combustion engine? We can't afford to subsidize them. -- From: A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333 And this,
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer. It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles. The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high for a marketable car. To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum, magnesium, and titanium components everywhere. Titanium lugnuts? $200 each. Magnesium wheels? I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given economies of scale. Fun stuff to play with, though. So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us. I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. -- RobT -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:19 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Hello Ted I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid electric/biodiesel vehicles. Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics? http://www.econogics.com/ I read that such products were manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped. Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush administration in favour of the Freedom Car. The technology, paid for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out: Driving In Circles http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution: http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html See PNGV about halfway down: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html Do diesels have a future? There's this, from a post in one of those threads: During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S. auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid concept vehicles, in line with the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicle. Some were more realistic than others, but all had high mileages, and all were unveiled 1998-2001. Interesting that as soon as our current President took office, this initiative left the headlines. But there's also this, from Doyle: Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House partnerships dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion and political cover, not actual clean cars. During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody skateboard called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of one federal supercar program and the creation of another. Being terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with Detroit known as the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, Freedom Car. However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's supercar program shows. At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the new venture would amount to nothing less than a major, even radical, breakthrough. A whole new class of car would follow, he assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect political
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Hello Rob I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer. It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles. The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high for a marketable car. To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum, magnesium, and titanium components everywhere. Titanium lugnuts? $200 each. Magnesium wheels? I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given economies of scale. They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000. http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm DaimlerChrysler cut the cost penalty from $60,000 down to $7,500. GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004, with cars for sale to follow. Fun stuff to play with, though. Play? It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80 miles per gallon. It won't be cheap, said a Washington Post article on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all, even in the US. So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us. Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been. Did you read these? Driving In Circles http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution: http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly that, and instead it vanished. All told, of the 129 technology achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those achievements and innovations are in the propulsion system alone. Shelved. And you guys buy Insights and Prius's instead like a bunch of mugs. A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333 From one PNGV program report in 2000: Daimler Chrysler's Jim Holden said he drove to the press conference in a new Dodge Durango SUV with a hybrid gas electric power train that is 20 percent more fuel efficient than the conventional Durango. GM sells about 20,000 Durangos a year, Holden said, and with a little bit of help on the tax side, the hybrid Durango could be on the road in the very near term. The Big Three want Congress to pass legislation supported by the White House that would give a tax credit of up to $4,000 to consumers who buy these new, fuel efficient vehicles. But the tax credits go to SUVs. Unfortunately, Congress has refused to act on our package of consumer tax credits -- including credits of up to $4,000 for consumers to purchase the next generation of fuel efficient vehicles. - GM, 10/20/2000 I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. More than that I think. Funny how there's less and less to be seen about these vehicles and the PNGV program. I keep having to change/kill the links on our section on them at Journey to Forever. For instance, a new one, enter pngv at NREL's search page and you get this message (note the url): http://search.nrel.gov/go_away.html This page is intentionally blank. LOL! I did the search after finding that NREL's pages on PNGV had vanished. Best wishes Keith -- RobT -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:19 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Hello Ted I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid electric/biodiesel vehicles. Have you visited
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Title: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel solomon technologies has a hybrid Sailboat /diesel/electic system. the largest shipping motor they have in production is a 12 hp but they have a 20 hp 1000rpm engine in testing right now. We have been in discussions with them about a hybrid system for a sailboat my brother and I are starting construction on next summer. however the 20 hp MIGHT be really good for a car as well as it does regenerative chrging when the sailboat is under sail. http://www.solomontechnologies.com interesting reading regardless. mel ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
I think a lot of 'facts' thrown around about those PNGV hybrids were actually computer projected performance statistics, not actual measurements. That was certainly true for Ford and Chrysler at least. Chrysler was reporting fuel economy results well before they had any driveable vehicle, and Ford stuck with their computer-generated 80mpg predictions for maybe a year after learning that the actual vehicle was ending up around 65-70mpg. At Ford, some of the hybrid vehicle development systems did percolate from the PNGV research program to the Ford Escape hybrid production program. Different priorities and much lower fuel economy there, although it does a decent job of improving the fuel economy of the base vehicle. About the marketplace and the technology, though: Even manufacturers who do have high fuel economy technology, and have put it into large-scale production, aren't bringing these vehicles to the US. The VW Lupo and Smart cars come to mind first, just because I've seen or read about them recently. It seems to me that barriers to this technology making it from the research lab to the showroom (in the US) include: - lazy manufacturers (already tooled up for high-profit-margin trucks and SUVs, why change?) - lazy consumers (everyone else drives a big truck, I think I'll get me one too) - legal hurdles (difficult to emissions-certify diesel cars in the US, and crash-test certify small cars) I don't mean to support the US manufacturers or market system too much, though. I quit working for Ford out of frustration years ago, moved out of the city, and currently drive a Mexican-made VW TDI diesel that was cheap, and gets 49-50 mpg(US). -- Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:31 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Hello Rob I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer. It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles. The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high for a marketable car. To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum, magnesium, and titanium components everywhere. Titanium lugnuts? $200 each. Magnesium wheels? I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given economies of scale. They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000. http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm DaimlerChrysler cut the cost penalty from $60,000 down to $7,500. GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004, with cars for sale to follow. Fun stuff to play with, though. Play? It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80 miles per gallon. It won't be cheap, said a Washington Post article on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all, even in the US. So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us. Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been. Did you read these? Driving In Circles http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution: http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly that, and instead it vanished. All told, of the 129 technology achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those achievements and innovations are in the propulsion system alone. Shelved. And you guys buy Insights and Prius's instead like a bunch of mugs. A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333 From one PNGV program report in 2000: Daimler Chrysler's Jim Holden said he drove
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid Ethanol/Diesel - How high Ethanol/Diesel ratio can be used with an unmodifyed engine ?
I'm by no stretch of the imagination, am expert. But, I'd imagine that you might run into trouble as the alcohol brings the cetane value down, effecting combustion. Can sombody offer some feedback on this? Maybe (I hope) it's not a serious concern. MikeR --- Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All I was looking at the feasibility of adding a hybrid Ethanol injection system to An old Diesel VW rabbit. Does anyone know how much Ethanol added to an unmodified Diesel engine and run properly ? I was considering a CSI injection system into the manifold just before the intake valves. These are readily available at the auto Wreakers and easily controllable. I can lower the compression ratio a bit if it would allow higher Ethanol/Diesel ratios but run on pure Diesel. The thought was to have the engine run on Diesel at start and idle then increase the Ethanol/Diesel mixture when the RPMs and power is high. Thanks M ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid Ethanol/Diesel - How high Ethanol/Diesel ratio can be used with an unmodifyed engine ?
Dear Micheal Several research have been carried out to mix Ethanol/Diesel , but not yet come well come to comercial scale. See the previous post here in this group to make microemulsion of ethanol and additives which need to be pure , not hydrated. With suitable additives which are very effective had been known , but are very costlier and biodeisel can be an additive to make possible the use ethanol to increase cetane number as reported in some patents , but only upto maximium 10 porcent. Several useful links can be seen in the old list of our group here as follows. Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ sd Pannirselvam P.V Brasil On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:18:25 -0800 (PST), Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm by no stretch of the imagination, am expert. But, I'd imagine that you might run into trouble as the alcohol brings the cetane value down, effecting combustion. Can sombody offer some feedback on this? Maybe (I hope) it's not a serious concern. MikeR --- Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All I was looking at the feasibility of adding a hybrid Ethanol injection system to An old Diesel VW rabbit. Does anyone know how much Ethanol added to an unmodified Diesel engine and run properly ? I was considering a CSI injection system into the manifold just before the intake valves. These are readily available at the auto Wreakers and easily controllable. I can lower the compression ratio a bit if it would allow higher Ethanol/Diesel ratios but run on pure Diesel. The thought was to have the engine run on Diesel at start and idle then increase the Ethanol/Diesel mixture when the RPMs and power is high. Thanks M ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid Ethanol/Diesel - How high Ethanol/Diesel ratio can be used with an unmodifyed engine ?
Thanks for the input. I wanted to show concern, but not discouragement. I think Mark is asking a really good question. A mixture of biofuels would effect dependance on one or the other and I think it would be a great achievement to develop a cost effective way to pull this off. Mike --- Pannir P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Micheal Several research have been carried out to mix Ethanol/Diesel , but not yet come well come to comercial scale. See the previous post here in this group to make microemulsion of ethanol and additives which need to be pure , not hydrated. With suitable additives which are very effective had been known , but are very costlier and biodeisel can be an additive to make possible the use ethanol to increase cetane number as reported in some patents , but only upto maximium 10 porcent. Several useful links can be seen in the old list of our group here as follows. Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ sd Pannirselvam P.V Brasil On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:18:25 -0800 (PST), Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm by no stretch of the imagination, am expert. But, I'd imagine that you might run into trouble as the alcohol brings the cetane value down, effecting combustion. Can sombody offer some feedback on this? Maybe (I hope) it's not a serious concern. MikeR --- Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All I was looking at the feasibility of adding a hybrid Ethanol injection system to An old Diesel VW rabbit. Does anyone know how much Ethanol added to an unmodified Diesel engine and run properly ? I was considering a CSI injection system into the manifold just before the intake valves. These are readily available at the auto Wreakers and easily controllable. I can lower the compression ratio a bit if it would allow higher Ethanol/Diesel ratios but run on pure Diesel. The thought was to have the engine run on Diesel at start and idle then increase the Ethanol/Diesel mixture when the RPMs and power is high. Thanks M ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid Gas/Biodiesel was hybrid Ethanol/Diesel
What about the gas starting kerosene running yifa engines. could they be run on biodiesel? and Can this technology be stepped up on a larger scale? Jeremy - Original Message - From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid Ethanol/Diesel - How high Ethanol/Diesel ratiocan be used with an unmodifyed engine ? Thanks for the input. I wanted to show concern, but not discouragement. I think Mark is asking a really good question. A mixture of biofuels would effect dependance on one or the other and I think it would be a great achievement to develop a cost effective way to pull this off. Mike --- Pannir P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Micheal Several research have been carried out to mix Ethanol/Diesel , but not yet come well come to comercial scale. See the previous post here in this group to make microemulsion of ethanol and additives which need to be pure , not hydrated. With suitable additives which are very effective had been known , but are very costlier and biodeisel can be an additive to make possible the use ethanol to increase cetane number as reported in some patents , but only upto maximium 10 porcent. Several useful links can be seen in the old list of our group here as follows. Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ sd Pannirselvam P.V Brasil On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:18:25 -0800 (PST), Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm by no stretch of the imagination, am expert. But, I'd imagine that you might run into trouble as the alcohol brings the cetane value down, effecting combustion. Can sombody offer some feedback on this? Maybe (I hope) it's not a serious concern. MikeR --- Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All I was looking at the feasibility of adding a hybrid Ethanol injection system to An old Diesel VW rabbit. Does anyone know how much Ethanol added to an unmodified Diesel engine and run properly ? I was considering a CSI injection system into the manifold just before the intake valves. These are readily available at the auto Wreakers and easily controllable. I can lower the compression ratio a bit if it would allow higher Ethanol/Diesel ratios but run on pure Diesel. The thought was to have the engine run on Diesel at start and idle then increase the Ethanol/Diesel mixture when the RPMs and power is high. Thanks M ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles
The hybrid Hummer. All diesel subs starting well before WW2. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles
North American International Auto Show. Most importantly for your post, see the second paragraph above the section entitled Hydrid in Action and beginning Meantime... where there's a discussion of a Mercedes-Benz hybrid diesel wagon. http://autos.msn.com/as/autoshow2004/article.aspx?xml=Hybridsshw=autoshow2004 Don C. - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles Train engines (diesel locomotives). Some hybrid buses. Some prototype truck tractors. The Spincraft workboat (hybrid version). There was a super-efficient high mileage one-off car done in Europe (either VW or Mercedes, I think). PNGV prototypes (as noted by Keith already). Couple of U.S. university project vehicles. Nothing mainstream yet. My vehicle remains a work in progress. Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read about is of hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars are much more fuel efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel savings of a diesel vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Office (905)473-5646 Cellular (705)794-1264 -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles
Not that I know of, but there is a hybrid boat drive system for Sailboats. Solomon Technologies uses an electric motor that is driven by a diesel generator. It also charges the batteries when you are sailing by turning the motor and generating electricity. You should see the fuel consumption stats. It uses HALF the fuel a conventional sailboat with the same power does. mel -Original Message- From: Todd Wootton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read about is of hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars are much more fuel efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel savings of a diesel vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Office (905)473-5646 Cellular (705)794-1264 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid vehicles
Is there such a thing as a hybrid diesel vehicle. Everything that I read about is of hybrid with internal cumbustion but we all know that diesel cars are much more fuel efficient. if we were to combine that with the extra fuel savings of a diesel vehicle and we use the biodiesel.-wow See PNGV: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/?keywords=PNGVtime=allusertime =2002-12-31 Information Archive at NNYTech From previous: The three vehicles developed in the US by the Big Three under the abandoned PNGV program all achieved 80mpg and they were all diesel-electric hybrids. There are some details here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html Do diesels have a future? Do an archive search for PNGV if you want an interesting read: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ This is a good place to start: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30857/ Best wishes Keith Todd Wootton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Office (905)473-5646 Cellular (705)794-1264 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Vehicles in real life
If anyone is interested in some personal experiences with Hybrids, I have been driving my Honda Insight for over a year now. You can get pretty much the mileage you want to get with this car...the way I drive, I usually get between 45 and 50 miles per gallon. The car has digital readout on your instantaneous use of gas, so if you want to get 60 miles per gallon, up to about 70 mph, this is very possible. However, in the heavy Interstate traffic of South Florida, and the constant rush we are in, impatience will usually cause lots of sudden braking and then sudden acceleration, so 45 mpg is often the result. If you are really in a rush, this car has easily cruised from West Palm to Orlando at speeds averaging between 105 and 115 mph, during which time mileage dropped to about 27 mpg. The Insight handles turns and high speeds like a real sports car, and would destroy a Prius in any type of competive handling. It will actually out handle most cars in high speed interstate driving, this not including Corvettes or other cars with speed capabilities unrelated to real life needs. On scenic coastal roads like A1A, where the speed limit ranges from 35 to 40 mph, the Insight can easily get 75 and even 80 mpg, and you don't feel like you are trying that hard to accomplish this ! Dan V -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fred Enga Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 2:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Hybrid Vehicles in real life Hybrid cars shine in city stop and go, report shows Vancouver, November 18, 2004 - A new report on the performance of 100 hybrid electric vehicles has documented substantially lower fuel costs and reductions in air pollution, with some owners reporting up to 60 percent savings when using hybrids compared to the vehicles they replaced. The report released today by Fleet Challenge BC, a program of the Fraser Basin Council, concluded 3hybrids appear to be well suited to stop and go applications like urban commuting, taxis, and couriers.2 The report's researchers says its findings will be of particular interest to consumers and vehicle fleet managers looking to save on fuel costs while reducing greenhouse gases and other harmful emissions. North America's two highest mileage hybrid taxis logged 675,000 kilometres during the past three years without problems, the report said. The B.C. government, which operates a fleet of 61 2001 Toyota Prius vehicles, the largest hybrid fleet in Canada, reported an average fuel efficiency of 5.8 litres per 100 kilometres during 2.5 million kilometres of driving throughout the province. 3As Minister responsible for government1s fleet, I look for opportunities that encourage the use of greener, more fuel-efficient vehicles,2 said Management Services Minister Joyce Murray. 3The results of the Hybrid Experience Report will be useful as B.C. continues to demonstrate leadership in reducing emissions and fuel costs across ministries.2 Transportation accounts for about 25 percent of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions, the main contributor to climate change, said the Honourable R. John Efford, Minister of Natural Resources Canada. Initiatives like Fleet Challenge BC and this report are important in two ways. First, they educate Canadian fleet managers about hybrid vehicles. Second, they show that hybrid technology can have both environmental and economic benefits, and help Canada effectively respond to climate change. The City of Vancouver is very excited to be part of this study, says David Cadman Councillor for the City of Vancouver and GVRD Director. Increasing the use of hybrid vehicles is one measure that will help the City of Vancouver meet our Cool Vancouver goals for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. BC Hydro recently added nine hybrid vehicles to its fleet and already they are making a significant contribution to the bottom line, said Bruce Sampson, Vice-President of Sustainability, BC Hydro, who added: 3We'll be sharing our operating experience with these vehicles through the Hybrid Experience Report.2 The Report provides information on hybrid vehicles currently in production by major manufacturers, including the Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, Ford Escape, Honda Civic Hybrid, and Chevrolet Silverado truck, plus commercial vehicles such as delivery trucks and transit buses. The Report noted that an additional 15 hybrid vehicle models will be introduced by manufacturers between 2005 and 2007. The Report is available on the website www.hybridexperience.ca http://www.hybridexperience.ca/ . The Report's website has many features that will help users become better informed about current models, the technology behind them and how well each model has performed in terms of both fuel use and emissions. The website also makes available easy to use calculators
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid vehicle technologies - a question
--- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Donald I have a question about the currently available hybrid vehicles which I have been wondering about for a while. It seems that all the hybrid vehicles currently available have an electric motor connected in varying configurations with a petrol (gasoline) engine. My question is, why not a Diesel engine? Given that the aim of a hybrid vehicle is to increase fuel economy, it would seem sensible to choose the most economical internal combustion engine available, however it seems that _none_ of them do - there must be a reason for this, but this reason escapes me. Peugeot-Citroen is actually developing a diesel hybrid, and there is information to be found saying that diesel hybrid is the best currently useable technology. Here are some links that I found on google: http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_volkswagen_tests_hybrid/ http://www.all4engineers.com/preview.php?cms=lng=enalloc=1id=2112 this is a motorcycle, but very interesting: http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=228382fSectionId=896fSetId=381 http://www.hybridcars.com/news/citroen_hybrid.html here's a report recommending diesel-hybrids over fuel cells, but it's put out by the lead-acid battery consortium, so they have a vested interest in the one over the other (tho at least they cite their sources): http://www.alabc.org/2003_newsletters/KPv1_03.PDF http://www.bucknell.edu/communications/releases/Archives%202003/2003-04%20fall%20semester/hybrid%20vehicles%208-26-03.htm sorry about the length of some of those links. you'll just have to cut and paste them back together to take a look at the longer ones. erik __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid vehicle technologies - a question
Hi Keith, Yes, the list archives does. :-) First though, there are quite a lot of diesel hybrids, in things like buses, not cars. And of course trains. snip Thanks for your reply - it's now put me much more in the picture. Now I thought I was so cynical about this world that I wouldn't fail to spot the obvious political motives for decisions that don't seem to make much sense - and I totally failed to spot this one, I had presumed there was some technological reason for it not being much more common. Perhaps that's why I am a technologist rather than a politician :-) Having said that, most of the articles you point to do seem to be largely based on US political decisions, and I don't think I had ever really assumed that Diesel hybrids would ever come out of the US - purely because Diesel fuel is not commonly used there in private cars. Diesel engines are very common here in Europe, and a quick glance at the technical data for new Diesel engines shows them to be a lot more efficient even than my 1996 engine - there's a lot of exciting stuff going on in Diesel engine technology at the moment (and biodiesel/SVO use is just a part of this). I suspect these improvements haven't run out of steam yet either, and over the next 10 years we will see further refinements. Given this, and the fact that petrol-based hybrid technology is reaching a good level of maturity, it seems to me that to produce a Diesel hybrid should be almost trivially easy to do - there is no technology involved that hasn't reached a high level of maturity when used in a different configuration. And I don't see there being a marketing barrier either, at least in the UK. Running cost is a very important consideration when choosing a car, and I would have thought people who choose a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight (as far as I know the only commercially available hybrids marketed in the UK at the moment) would prefer to decrease their running costs even further, given the option. I had not considered hybrid use in buses or trains, but I am reminded of one electric bus project in Camden, London (if I remember correctly). These are purely driven by electricity, and the batteries are topped up every time the bus reaches the depot. This isn't long enough to fully recharge them, but as buses run a fixed route it is easy to predict energy use reasonably accurately and fit batteries sufficient to last the day with top up charging on a cycle that is dictated by the timetable. So far so good. However there was one crucial detail that was overlooked - namely that not all the heat 'wasted' by an internal combustion engine is actually wasted, as it is used to heat the interior of the bus in winter. Highly efficient electric motors of course do not generate enough 'waste' heat. The solution? Diesel-powered heaters were fitted for the winter months! Regards, Donald = -- 43 - slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid vehicle technologies - a question
Hi Erik, --- Erik Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peugeot-Citroen is actually developing a diesel hybrid, and there is information to be found saying that diesel hybrid is the best currently useable technology. Here are some links that I found on google: http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_volkswagen_tests_hybrid/ http://www.all4engineers.com/preview.php?cms=lng=enalloc=1id=2112 this is a motorcycle, but very interesting: http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=228382fSectionId=896fSetId=381 http://www.hybridcars.com/news/citroen_hybrid.html here's a report recommending diesel-hybrids over fuel cells, but it's put out by the lead-acid battery consortium, so they have a vested interest in the one over the other (tho at least they cite their sources): http://www.alabc.org/2003_newsletters/KPv1_03.PDF http://www.bucknell.edu/communications/releases/Archives%202003/2003-04%20fall%20semester/hybrid%20vehicles%208-26-03.htm sorry about the length of some of those links. you'll just have to cut and paste them back together to take a look at the longer ones. erik Thanks for the links - I must admit I hadn't done a very thorough search of what's currently in development (as opposed to already in the market), but if these sites are to believed then Diesel hybrids are just around the corner. I hope these projects make it into the market and don't get their funding cut at the last minute. Interestingly, there seems to be a definite split between the hydrogen power and fuel cells will save the world community and the the world can be saved by more intelligent use of current technology, such as hybrid technology community. In the latter I would also put increased use of public transport as being a core aim. I'm not sure how much of this is down to vested interests putting across their point of view. All the talk of hydrogen power to me seems a long way off making any useful contribution, as with current technology most of it will be produced using non-renewable electricity. However it's seen as being sexier - maybe the hydrogen proponents have done a better job of marketing to alter public perception? Regards, Donald = -- 43 - slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid vehicle technologies - a question
Hi Donald, Welcome to the rest of the world, all except North America, have worked on a higher use of diesel for many years now. Brazil went the Alcohol way, but seams to pick up biodiesel now again. The interesting thing is that all diesel fuel in Brazil will be minimum B2 from coming November, by regulation, as I understand it. It is also interesting that Brazil only imports 1/3 of their diesel fuel and with the new discoveries, could be self supplied for some times to come. Europe work on a 50% use of personal diesel cars by 2020 and are already using around 30 times more than US, around 30%, compared with US 1% for personal cars. Since 1996 all the European diesels are biodiesel compatible. In Germany, Austria and France, biodiesel mix B20, start to be readily available. Diesel engine, as a ready for use energy saving technology. http://energysavingnow.com/biofuels/dieseltech.shtml Volkswagen symposium unveils diesel strategies. http://energysavingnow.com/biofuels/vwdiesels.shtml VW expect that the Americans will discover the use of diesel and biodiesel around 2006. A couple of years and maybe a regime change is needed. We cannot do it the American way, but maybe it will come about peacefully anyway. Hakan At 02:54 03/08/2004, you wrote: Hi Erik, --- Erik Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peugeot-Citroen is actually developing a diesel hybrid, and there is information to be found saying that diesel hybrid is the best currently useable technology. Here are some links that I found on google: http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_volkswagen_tests_hybrid/http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_volkswagen_tests_hybrid/ http://www.all4engineers.com/preview.php?cms=lng=enalloc=1id=2112 this is a motorcycle, but very interesting: http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=228382fSectionId=896fSetId=381http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=228382fSectionId=896fSetId=381 http://www.hybridcars.com/news/citroen_hybrid.html here's a report recommending diesel-hybrids over fuel cells, but it's put out by the lead-acid battery consortium, so they have a vested interest in the one over the other (tho at least they cite their sources): http://www.alabc.org/2003_newsletters/KPv1_03.PDFhttp://www.alabc.org/2003_newsletters/KPv1_03.PDF http://www.bucknell.edu/communications/releases/Archives%202003/2003-04%20fall%20semester/hybrid%20vehicles%208-26-03.htm sorry about the length of some of those links. you'll just have to cut and paste them back together to take a look at the longer ones. erik Thanks for the links - I must admit I hadn't done a very thorough search of what's currently in development (as opposed to already in the market), but if these sites are to believed then Diesel hybrids are just around the corner. I hope these projects make it into the market and don't get their funding cut at the last minute. Interestingly, there seems to be a definite split between the hydrogen power and fuel cells will save the world community and the the world can be saved by more intelligent use of current technology, such as hybrid technology community. In the latter I would also put increased use of public transport as being a core aim. I'm not sure how much of this is down to vested interests putting across their point of view. All the talk of hydrogen power to me seems a long way off making any useful contribution, as with current technology most of it will be produced using non-renewable electricity. However it's seen as being sexier - maybe the hydrogen proponents have done a better job of marketing to alter public perception? Regards, Donald = -- 43 - slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid vehicle technologies - a question
http://www.thesmart.co.uk/index.html ,sells a diesel/electric hybrid Donald Allwright wrote: I have a question about the currently available hybrid vehicles which I have been wondering about for a while. It seems that all the hybrid vehicles currently available have an electric motor connected in varying configurations with a petrol (gasoline) engine. My question is, why not a Diesel engine? Given that the aim of a hybrid vehicle is to increase fuel economy, it would seem sensible to choose the most economical internal combustion engine available, however it seems that _none_ of them do - there must be a reason for this, but this reason escapes me. Is it that hybrid vehicles are primarily marketed in the USA, where use of Diesel fuel is not widely accepted for private cars? (European-marketed hybrids are all petrol not diesel too though). Or is it because of the lower power-to-weight ratio, which is already a limitation with heavy batteries? Or maybe because Diesel engines are more expensive, and having a Diesel hybrid would be too expensive on capital outlay to be acceptable to the consumer (despite what should be excellent running costs)? Does anyone know the answer, or have any insight (!) into this? Regards, Donald = -- 43 - slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid vehicle technologies - a question
Hello Donald I have a question about the currently available hybrid vehicles which I have been wondering about for a while. It seems that all the hybrid vehicles currently available have an electric motor connected in varying configurations with a petrol (gasoline) engine. My question is, why not a Diesel engine? Given that the aim of a hybrid vehicle is to increase fuel economy, it would seem sensible to choose the most economical internal combustion engine available, however it seems that _none_ of them do - there must be a reason for this, but this reason escapes me. Is it that hybrid vehicles are primarily marketed in the USA, where use of Diesel fuel is not widely accepted for private cars? (European-marketed hybrids are all petrol not diesel too though). Or is it because of the lower power-to-weight ratio, which is already a limitation with heavy batteries? Or maybe because Diesel engines are more expensive, and having a Diesel hybrid would be too expensive on capital outlay to be acceptable to the consumer (despite what should be excellent running costs)? Does anyone know the answer, or have any insight (!) into this? Yes, the list archives does. :-) First though, there are quite a lot of diesel hybrids, in things like buses, not cars. And of course trains. Second, a couple of folks on the list are building their own. I'll do some of the archives work for you, it could use some fresh air. Mostly it's about PNGV, the US Parnership for a New Generation of Vehicles program launched by Gore and Clinton. More about it here, about halfway down (there are some other diesel hybrids on this page too): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html Do diesels have a future? The US government/industry collaboration Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV), launched in 1993, was intended to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by developing ultra-clean, 80 miles-per-gallon (34 km/litre) hypercars without sacrificing comfort, safety or performance, focusing on cleaner and more efficient diesel engines. The program produced three cars, one from each of Detroit's Big Three, all diesel hybrids, all of which reached or nearly reached 80mpg, and were getting close to affordable prices, when the program was axed. This is an interesting document, a post-mortem: Advanced diesel engines were the clear choice of the PNGV process for quickly bringing to market a much more fuel-efficient vehicle. When placed within a hybrid vehicle architecture, they would be more efficient than the gasoline-powered Prius. Yet, advanced diesel engine hybrids are not destined to be on the road anytime soon. -- From: Today's Promises, Tomorrow's Cars? Lessons for FreedomCAR from the Ghosts of Supercars Past, a report analyzing the successes and failures of the PNGV program, and pointing out potential roadblocks to its successor, the FreedomCAR program. http://www.environmentaldefense.org/documents/3781_FreedomCAR_Final.pdf This is a fair pull-together: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30857/ Quite an eye-opener. A couple of the stories reffed there went and changed their links. You can find them here, worth a read: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/10937/ Driving In Circles New Fuel-Efficiency Initiative Is More PR Than Progress by Steven Rosenfeld The Bush administration is giving Detroit a subsidy to develop hydrogen-fueled cars. But if history is a guide, automakers will use the program to cover their lack of any real progress on fuel efficiency. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/20706/ Fool Cells How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers Jack Doyle Check out the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Doyle's book, Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution: http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html What I've often asked about it is this: Whatever, I still want to know what happened to the PNGV technology - why has it just been shut away in some dark back room somewhere? It was publicly funded, it's public property, no? Dumb question, I guess. regards Keith Regards, Donald Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short
Ha! I was stopped at a traffic light nearby yesterday and a guy in a Ford Exploder came alongside and beeped his horn. I rolled down my window and he asked me what kind of mileage I got. I said 53 highway on long trips, @ 70MPH. He said wanna trade? I said NO WAY! I told him the VW TDi is the best kept secret. Its too bad people have to feel obligated to buy overstuffed g-ass guzzling land yachts because they need to keep up with their neighbors, heck the neighbors should keep up with me, I could go next door and borrow a cup of biodiesel! - Original Message - From: Ken Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:02 PM Subject: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short My 2002 VW Golf TDI (stock) is getting 50 MPG on the back roads on mostly old country roads in Hills and Valleys in S.E. Ohio. I love it Ken [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short
Heck, I put a Got 50MPG? sticker on my TDi Golf and I'm embarrassed, too. Because its been getting 53 MPG on road trips to my house in upstate NY. I'm so ashamed. BSEG :) busyditch - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 3:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short In my view, it is long overdue that the EPA should improve its tests to reflect real-world mileage and not their out-of-touch lab work. http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates. Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that overstates hybrid performance. Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with MO MILES on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle. But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg. I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES, says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do. [etc.] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short
My 96 Passat TDI, with a performance Upsolute chip installed for fun and power, has never gotten below 33 mpg, no matter how hard and fast I drive it in the city. Hiway is never under 45 mpg. This is an old TDI, the newer pump duece tdi's are even better, many tdi drivers get over 60 mpg on the highway. All in a car that is heavy, strong, durable and safe. Imagine if they made it like Honda and cut out 600 lbs. of weight. Chuck - Original Message - From: murdoch To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 2:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short In my view, it is long overdue that the EPA should improve its tests to reflect real-world mileage and not their out-of-touch lab work. http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates. Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that overstates hybrid performance. Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with MO MILES on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle. But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg. I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES, says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do. [etc.] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Electric Vehicles
Hi Derek, how goes? Thanks for the links. I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I felt they make an interesting read. http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution, maintenance, etc. http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/technology%7Eoverview.cfm Here is a heavy truck application of an HEV system. What interested me about this was the use of 'ultracapacitors' instead of batteries for energy storage. There has been discussion in the past on this list of the problems associated with batteries and their ultimate disposal. This would appear to obviate much or all of this problem. Kirk sent me this a couple of days ago: I check in on them from time to time to see if they are marketing yet. Could revolutionize electric vehicles. Kirk http://www.skeleton-technologies.com/supcap6.htm It's been discussed before, here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19729list=biofuelrelated=1 Best wishes Keith Regards, Derek Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
Yes. I'm building one (as finances permit). Darryl McMahon dewey_nc [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Has any research been done on the feasibility of a biodiesel/electric hybrid vehicle? This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel consumption. And the fuel is from renewable sources. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
What are you going to use for the electric motor? - Original Message - From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars. -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Yes. I'm building one (as finances permit). Darryl McMahon dewey_nc [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Has any research been done on the feasibility of a biodiesel/electric hybrid vehicle? This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel consumption. And the fuel is from renewable sources. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
saw one in Vermont last year. s10 pickup, electric drive, biodiesel generator. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars. -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Yes. I'm building one (as finances permit). Darryl McMahon dewey_nc [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Has any research been done on the feasibility of a biodiesel/electric hybrid vehicle? This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel consumption. And the fuel is from renewable sources. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
I'd suggest an 8 or 9 dc motor, from 96 to 144 volts. This will give you 68 - 100 hp Advanced D.C. Motors is a good brand. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Andy Lynn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid What are you going to use for the electric motor? - Original Message - From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars. -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Yes. I'm building one (as finances permit). Darryl McMahon dewey_nc [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Has any research been done on the feasibility of a biodiesel/electric hybrid vehicle? This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel consumption. And the fuel is from renewable sources. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid
it has worked for trains for a long time why not cars. -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Yes. I'm building one (as finances permit). Darryl McMahon dewey_nc [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Has any research been done on the feasibility of a biodiesel/electric hybrid vehicle? This would offer high MPG with reduced total fuel consumption. And the fuel is from renewable sources. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle
I did finally get to see a British Enfield diesel motorbike. Also the Polaris diesel 4x4 and a Kawasaki diesel mule. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle biofueledenergy wrote: I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon. Good news! Please do keep us informed. Best wishes Keith In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki was developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be offered to the public? Ed Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle
Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki was developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be offered to the public? Ed - Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one, IMO. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle
I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon. In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki was developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be offered to the public? Ed [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle
biofueledenergy wrote: I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon. Good news! Please do keep us informed. Best wishes Keith In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki was developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be offered to the public? Ed Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle
I just purchased a gasoline powered 2 cycle engine weedeater. I can remember some discussions concerning the use of Bio diesel instead of Dino oil to provide lubrication for the 2 cycle engine. How much Bio diesel do you add? I know that the ratio for Dino Oil is 32 parts gasoline and 1 part Dino oil (4 oz oil per gallon of gas). Also did someone use Ethanol and Bio diesel to run a 2 cylce engine on a bike? T -Original Message- From: Sean Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:19 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle Gee I just want to buy one.,.,.,., so much for U.S. production. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:46 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year, and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old pictures, still not in production. eCycle plans to introduce the hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002. Tell you a secret - it's been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so? Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one, IMO. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
