Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
DAVEH: My latest post is in GREEN... michael douglas wrote: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: michael douglas wrote: DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer. > Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John > Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant > baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John > Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith. DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet. Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Michael. Michael D: As I expected that you would (respectfully and all), but as I recall, JS was shown to be the one who prophesied that his wife would die, but he instead died after declaring such, while she lived on. Now, that speaks volumes for anyone to see, DAVEH: I don't know about that, Michael. Let's see what he said and then compare it to what happenedPlease quote the prophesy. not so ??? Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend to offer many spurious arguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways. > Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name > of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would > you agree? DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your opinion, Michael. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to WIN Robbie Williams "Live At Knebworth DVD" -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dave, you write: DAVEH: The point I'm trying to make (and find out why Protestants believe as they do), is that God could have created us and the world that way (devoid of the problems) from Day 1. Yet for some reason, he allowed sin to enter into the equation. Let me ask you, Judy.do you believe God could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve (and us) and then we all could have lived in 'paradise'? I assume you do. Then let me ask another related question...why did God prevent Adam/Eve from partaking of the fruit on the tree of life? jt: You don't seem to get it Dave because you are trying to rationalize and make God into some image you have and I don't know that you will ever coming to an understanding this way, DAVEH: I realize that I will probably never understand it as you do, Judy. I believe (due to my LDS perspective) I am thinking a few steps beyond what your theology has allowed your mind to perceive. In my opinion, God does not do things without reason. In Biblical times, the reasons God did incomprehensible things were known as mysteries. IMHO, mysteries are what the gospel is supposed to explain. The reasons for what he has done with regard to our existence and our testing far exceed the ability of mainstream religions to explain it. It's the old baby/milk/meat thing. There is little point in dumping more information into ones paradigm than what it can withstand. (I'm not sure I worded that quite right.hope you understand what I'm trying to say.) I believe that is why Christianity evolved as it did throughout the Bible times. The Hebrews had trouble staying focused on their "one God", so trying to dump the whole gospel plan in their lap would have only led to a lot of confusion. Their religion had to develop a little at a time, at a pace they could handle. And.at times, they couldn't even handle that. I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who have the gospel truth. Jesus said that we would have to believe first and then we would know regarding the doctrine, that is whether or not it is so I wrote: I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates. DAVEH: I'm not sure that makes senseWhy would that be necessary for a God who knows the outcome prior to the test? jt: It may not make sense to the 'carnal mind' but that's the way it is. He allowed false prophets to test Israel and He allows all kinds of things today. It is up to us to make the right choices, to choose the narrow road that leads to life. Yes, He's aware from the start, it's us who need to see that we miss the mark. DAVEH: Wouldn't it just be simpler if he tossed his faulty creations into the flaming pit without putting them through the testing phase? Or better yet, why not just NOT make 'defective' people? jt: It may be simpler but it wouldn't be love which is God's nature. He is not willing that any should perish and desires that all come to the knowledge of Truth. DAVEH: But not to the point where he eliminates any temptation to do otherwise. That alone should make one wonder what reason there be for opposition. Paul writes to the church at Thessalonica that God Himself will send strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth so that they may believe the lie. DAVEH: That almost sounds pervese. Would a parent be considered 'good' if they were to continually put temptations in front of their children? jt: God can not be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt any man. DAVEH: That seems to contradict what you said above, "God Himself will send strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth" Judy, unless I don't understand what you are trying to convey. We are tempted when we are drawn aside after our own lust. DAVEH: Do you think that is why Eve disobeyed..for lust? Anyone who wants to can seek after and know the truth. Problem is many do not want to and we will be responsible for our choices in life. DAVEH: Normally, parents try to shield their children from the bad things in the world. Yet you are making it sound like God is going to extremes to 'encourage' his children to fail. jt: At some point parents must allow their children to sink or swim. DAVEH: Aagain, for what purpose? Do you think there may be a relation between why parents let their kids fail and why God does similar? What I have trouble understanding is why a lot of Protestants think God is going to punitively torture his children who fail to make the grade, so to speak. Would you purposefully torture your children if one of them failed to obey you? I can't imagine any 'normal' parent doing to their children what they perceive God will do to us if we fail to accept/believe his Son. And.that applies even to those who never have the chance to hear his
RE: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
[Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/5/2003 1:49:45 AM Subject: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day DAVEH: When you use the term we Carroll, are you just referring to those protesters who use those tactics? Surely you don't think all Protestants agree with using such methods, do you? #Dean writes: Not all Christians agree that one should open air preach-but Jesus said to do so. jt: Where did Jesus say to do so? DAVEH: I think there is a big difference between open air preaching, and making fools of oneself while preaching in public. #Dean: I met a man in a monkey suit in front of the Temple jumping around and mocking our beliefs-while shouting as a preacher preached- He claimed to be a Mormon. Do you believe he was? DAVEH: Probably. jt: What a circus, the street preachers waving Mormon underwear and a Mormon jumping around in a monkey suit. How is God glorified in any of this? Judy Sister Judy-It goes farther than that-Imagine Helicopters flying around-dozens of Reporters-Dozens of police officers and even the SLC lawyer on the scene with Mormon officials protecting their interest-local Indians-ex Mormon protesters- Homosexual Mormons demanding rights-Mormon protesters demanding the return of the older ways (whatever that means)-ACLU attorneys in groups of six...etc. This is all with the first couple of hours after that first chaos-Most protestors leave and it is only the street preachers and the Mormons-We also have a group of people that seem to come just for salvation who are not Mormons-They seem to come to find the street preachers for this purpose.Many tears have been shed for Christ on the streets of SLC in front of the temple Judy remember we are to preach the Gospel in all the world and I do care for the souls of the Mormons-that is why I go-I have found that the Devil fights the hardest in his strongholds-so where I encounter the most resistance that is where I preach the Most.The local businesses thank us for coming to stand up against the Mormon church. I see good ground and good fruit in SLC. Hope this helps. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
[Original Message] From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/4/2003 7:46:57 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day Dean wrote: Last trip I didn't feel right about holding up the Mormon underclothing in mockery but in honor of you this year I will do so and send TT a picture for you to view Dean, before you do this, would you consider talking about it? I have not gone to Salt Lake City yet, but there are two things that have bothered me from the reports. One is about somebody who wore a skull cap to mock James White, and the other is about waving the Mormon underwear. Dean writes:* Yes I would like too but I think it would be better if Ruben answered these questions as the skull cap was his idea. I have notified him of the need and await his reply- until then I will do my best to answer these questions.On the first concern I believe the skull cap was an attempt to shake up James White who was working against us at SLC-in other words it was an attempt to cause his to reconsider his stance on street preaching and against the message we were preaching. On my first meeting with Dr.James White I felt that he considered SLC to be his domain and made it plain that we weren't welcome there. But he did nothing but attempt to hand out tracks which none of the Mormons would accept-in short he bore no fruit-that I could see-and then would report a huge harvest of souls on his site and to the press. We came in and started preaching loudly and saw immediate results unto salvation and he attacked us and our message with his five star Calvinist beliefs-publicly undermining our message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.At the last two conferences he hasn't been there but on his site he still is accepting donations from people as if he is still fighting on this ground. On the second concern-the street preachers are simply telling the Mormons that these are nothing but underclothing-this will not help one get to heaven and the only covering God will accept is the blood of Jesus Christ for sins as one must repent. Sarcasm is a technique of communication that I think is a very dangerous slope for the believer. Sarcasm means trying to be hurtful towards someone by mocking. It is not exactly the same as ridicule or sardonicism or satire. It incorporates this idea of being hurtful and cruel. I think Elijah pushed it to the edge when he mocked the prophets of Baal. He did not say the things to hurt anyone, but to laugh at their false religion and expose its foolishness. * Brother respectfully -While I don't totally agree with your belief that Elijah went to the edge-I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. In that regard I think that the edge of preaching is hinged upon sin which to me is the actual breaking of God's commandments both inward and outward-other than that the sky is the limit. This underwear matter seems a bit over the edge to me. I wasn't there so I don't know how it was done, but you yourself indicate that when you were there, you did not feel right about doing it. Was this your conscience? * Brother-again with respect-My reason for not wearing or holding up the underclothing was due to the fact that they belonged to a women . To me this is an area of great caution due to the nature of the clothing being in close contact with a females body and the Bible clearly tells one to dress as their own gender-as for the actual dishonoring of this object as being holy I have no problem with doing so. It seems like maybe you saw something wrong with it. On the other hand, now you indicate that you will do it in honor of Dave Hansen. Can you explain what you mean? What is the message you hope to convey by waiving the underwear? Do you just want to hurt Mormons, or is there something else motivating you? When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? * Bro.David-I see DaveH as being led by the Mormon spirit and realize that I am battling a spirit not a man. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order and I also believe that he is on this site to do the devils bidding to the hope of leading Christians astray into sin-I believe he works at this full time which is in accordance of Psalms 5:5. That is what keeps him here. This spirit has been attempting to anger me for day now and I am simply letting this spirit know that the battle has escalated to a higher level to even exposing the unholy things in front of Mormon temple at the very door of this spirit's stronghold. My question then to you is respectfully-If one is agreement with the spirit that leads one to rebel against God is that same one to be considered any different than the spirit that leads them? Hope this helps. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with
RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
[Original Message] From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/4/2003 7:53:16 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day I think we should hold out until DaveH decides to send us an authentic photo of himself in his cute skivvies. (Dean's photo might be a bit too scary, anyway.) Izzy * Sis- Do you think he has a pare in my size? I could take them with me to SLC-only if he washed them of course. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day Dean wrote: Last trip I didn't feel right about holding up the Mormon underclothing in mockery but in honor of you this year I will do so and send TT a picture for you to view Dean, before you do this, would you consider talking about it? I have not gone to Salt Lake City yet, but there are two things that have bothered me from the reports. One is about somebody who wore a skull cap to mock James White, and the other is about waving the Mormon underwear. Sarcasm is a technique of communication that I think is a very dangerous slope for the believer. Sarcasm means trying to be hurtful towards someone by mocking. It is not exactly the same as ridicule or sardonicism or satire. It incorporates this idea of being hurtful and cruel. I think Elijah pushed it to the edge when he mocked the prophets of Baal. He did not say the things to hurt anyone, but to laugh at their false religion and expose its foolishness. This underwear matter seems a bit over the edge to me. I wasn't there so I don't know how it was done, but you yourself indicate that when you were there, you did not feel right about doing it. Was this your conscience? It seems like maybe you saw something wrong with it. On the other hand, now you indicate that you will do it in honor of Dave Hansen. Can you explain what you mean? What is the message you hope to convey by waiving the underwear? Do you just want to hurt Mormons, or is there something else motivating you? When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DAVEH: The point I'm trying to make (and find out why Protestants believe as they do), is that God could have created us and the world that way (devoid of the problems) from Day 1. Yet for some reason, he allowed sin to enter into the equation. Let me ask you, Judy.do you believe God could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve (and us) and then we all could have lived in 'paradise'? I assume you do. Then let me ask another related question...why did God prevent Adam/Eve from partaking of the fruit on the tree of life? jt: You don't seem to get it Dave because you are trying to rationalize and make God into some image you have and I don't know that you will ever coming to an understanding this way, DAVEH: I realize that I will probably never understand it as you do, Judy. I believe (due to my LDS perspective) I am thinking a few steps beyond what your theology has allowed your mind to perceive. jt: I don't think so Dave.Basically it is not a 'mind' thing. I am speaking of spiritual realities. God isSpirit and so Truth is "spiritual" To be a worshipper we must worship Him in spirit and Truth and the Bible is a spiritual book. So it does not depend on theology or mind. God looks at the heart. DAVEH: In my opinion, God does not do things without reason. In Biblical times, the reasons God did incomprehensible things were known as mysteries. IMHO, mysteries are what the gospel is supposed to explain. jt: There is the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity; I don't know what other mystery you could be referring to. Actually the secret things still belong to the Lord but what is revealed is for us and for our children ... also God still hides things from folk who think themselves wise and prudent and reveals them to babes... In Matt 13:13,14,15 Jesus tells his disciples that he speaks in parables to hide thingsrather than to reveal them although I have heard so many ppl say that Jesus used that kind of imagery to make it simple. Things are not always what they appear. DAVEH: The reasons for what he has done with regard to our existence and our testing far exceed the ability of mainstream religions to explain it. It's the old baby/milk/meat thing. There is little point in dumping more information into ones paradigm than what it can withstand. jt: If too much information is being bandied about it isn't coming from God and without the work of the Holy Spirit noone is able to come to Him. DAVEH:I believe that is why Christianity evolved as it did throughout the Bible times. The Hebrews had trouble staying focused on their "one God", so trying to dump the whole gospel plan in their lap would have only led to a lot of confusion. jt: They had hearts that led them astray and they presumed upon God, same as the majoritydo today. What did that Barna Poll say about Bible illiteracy and yet just about everyone will tell you they pray and believe in God. DAVEH: Their religion had to develop a little at a time, at a pace they could handle. And.at times, they couldn't even handle that. I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who have the gospel truth. jt: There are no 'mysteries' confusing those who have the Truth today - some are just blind and who knows if they will ever repent and come to the knowledge of truth.. In Noah's day the world was so wicked that only eight ppl were saved - and Israel were deceived into thinking they could have their sin (act like the nations around them) and have God too. Judgment might be a long time coming but it will surely come. Jesus said that we would have to believe first and then we would know regarding the doctrine, that is whether or not it is so I wrote: I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates. DAVEH: I'm not sure that makes senseWhy would that be necessary for a God who knows the outcome prior to the test? jt: It may not make sense to the 'carnal mind' but that's the way it is. He allowed false prophets to test Israel and He allows all kinds of things today. It is up to us to make the right choices, to choose the narrow road that leads to life. Yes, He's aware from the start, it's us who need to see that we miss the mark. DAVEH: Wouldn't it just be simpler if he tossed his faulty creations into the flaming pit without putting them through the testing phase? Or better yet, why not just NOT make 'defective' people? jt: It may be simpler but it wouldn't be love which is God's nature. He is not willing that any should perish and desires that all come to the knowledge of Truth. DAVEH: But not to the point where he eliminates any temptation to do otherwise. That
[TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...
jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of scripture and the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel'DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18) jt: Not soDaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. No prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit in with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking ofIsrael's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. I've read that JS was upset with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus' DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right..I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize His voice and another voice they do not follow" The Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice' DAVEH: FTR..My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.to overcome physical death. He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end...THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!) jt: This sounds a lot like the real but when you addthe ascending toward godhood and whole temple ritual thing that is from what I've heard taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old mystery religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself differently outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in Israel when they were in apostasy and also what TPW is into. Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
DAVEH: My latest post is in BLUE Terry Clifton wrote: DAVEH: While baptism in itself will not save anybody, I firmly believe without baptism, one cannot be saved. (Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5)C'mon Dave:Read Luke. Start at 19:2 and read down to 19:9. DAVEH: I read it, and I think the meaning is much different than I suspect you believe, Terry. I'm headed to work shortly, and then am leaving town tonight for a few days, so I won't be able to answer you in detail. But in short, Christ's birth signaled the beginning of a 'salvation process' for which the Israelites had been awaiting for thousands of years. Until the advent of Jesus, at death man had no chance of living again. What this passage refers to is that the promises made to Abraham and his seed were fulfilled in Christ. Hmmaybe that is the wrong way of putting it..perhaps I should say that once Jesus began the mortal phase of his life, physical death for mankind (and in particular, the descendents of Abraham) would soon be realized. You will find a little fellow that was saved with no mention of baptism. Same with the thief on the cross. DAVEH: I've been through this several times on TT. Assuming the thief had not yet been baptized (and from an LDS perspective, we believe he will be afforded that opportunity by virtue of vicarious baptisms performed by others as was referred to in 1Cor 15:29), simply put..most Protestants equate "paradise" with heaven. I have previously explained that is not necessarily correct thinking. When I return next week, I'll try to explain it to you and Judy, as she made the same point. Baptism is an act of obedience that any true Christian will want to perform as soon as he or she is saved, but to make it a requirement for salvation prior to salvation would be saying you are saved by your own works rather than showing that you are the recipient of God's mercy. DAVEH: IMHO, that is an incorrect way of looking at it. Had Jesus not atoned for our sins, there is NO WAY we could have saved ourselves by any works whatever. Therefore, it is by Christ's grace that we are savedAFTER all we can do for ourselves. Even non LDS Christians believe they must do certain things to be saved (believe, repent and endure to the end are some examples that most accept). The question comes down to where is the line drawyn. I put baptism in that same realm as necessary as is belief and repentance. Keep searching, my friend. The truth is in the Book. DAVEH: And I'll be happy to explain why I believe "the Book" supports/confirms my belief. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean Moore wrote: -I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. jt: God is the one who will do this leaving us free to love people with the hope that they will be drawn to His son. DavidM: When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? Dean: * Bro.David-I see DaveH as being led by the Mormon spirit and realize that I am battling a spirit not a man. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order jt: But Dean you are dealing in the flesh with men when you wave Mormon underwear around outside their temple and when DaveH is personally mocked and demeaned on this list by you and/or others. Spiritual warfare happens in prayer as we take authority over religious principalities and powers and wicked spirits along with the assignments they have been given. Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] FW: Care to help answer these questions Brothers?
Dean Moore - Original Message - From: irebukeu To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];Kevin;Ron McRae;irebukeu;avtruth;avtruth;avtruth Sent: 12/5/2003 7:15:55 AM Subject: Care to help answer these questions Brothers? Dean, before you do this, would you consider talking about it? I have not gone to Salt Lake City yet, but there are two things that have bothered me from the reports. I would encourage you to come the first weekend of April 2004. Are the reports you are getting second hand, Mormon or from the Salt Lake City newspapers? When you have thousands of Mormons around you and you want to pass out tracts most if not all would walk right by you without taking much. Even with preaching out loud, most would keeping walking (I know by first hand experience there), so we have been known to go a little beyond, just to get them gathering around to listen. One is about somebody who wore a skull cap to mock James White, This is a guy is named Jeff and let me give you some back ground on him. He is not with us nor does he fellowship with Lonnie out there in S.L.C. he (Jeff) was married to a Mormon and both went to temple but his wwife-committedsuicide and he blames this on the church. He is now involved with Christian Identity and seems to have much bitterness against the Mormon church, but understand that Lonnie has been trying to counsel him also in all matters. He was upset with James White after hearing what white said about us. Knowing that we made a big impact during conference, he believed (as an outsider) like us that White was upset just out of pure envy. We did what he only tried to do, which is noise out a message to the convent ion, the city (local news and papers) the whole church (web-sites, etc). The same debate that White does in the evening with 150 people we do on the sidewalk with thousands. With no books or tapes to buy. Jeff had that skull hat with him and was not even going to be with Lonnie and Ruben, but decided to get it out it and on after Lonnie and Ruben preached to White with tailored banners. Jeff only stood between the banners for about ten minutes (if that) before James White walked off never to be seen again. Lonnie has rebuked Jeff and to date they do very little together because he might do something stupid that we do not wish to be apart of. and the other is about waving the Mormon underwear. People are motivated for a variety of reasons, but if you were to ask me why I used those garments it would be used to snap the Mormons out of their stupor. It is their convention, by their temple, in their city with us trying to obey their metropolis laws, as underdogs 98% of the Mormons would walk right by us. So we stun them to grab their attention, where we can break down into small conversations, which we would not have had. I do not mind tarnishing my good name with idiocy to expose their idiocy. Or why would a New Testament Church wear these garments if we have no record of the Apostles doing such? Is not the BLOOD OF JESUS enough??? It is a something they believe in and like the banners we use to get our message across. With the Catholics I have used rosary beads and with the Hare Krishnas I wear a cow costume, you grab their attention and give them a message tailored just for them.
Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
[Original Message] From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/5/2003 9:54:05 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day Dean Moore wrote: -I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. DAVEH: Well Dean...You've certainly done that! * No just started-it just takes longer with some then it does others but the end results will be the same-because the battle isn't mine but the Lords. When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? * Bro.David-I see DaveH as being led by the Mormon spirit and realize that I am battling a spirit not a man. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order DAVEH: I'm sorry you feel that way, Dean. :-( *Still worried about my health I see and now my soul-which is in the hands of Jesus Christ-should you really be so concerned as I am putting my trust in Him and not the teachings of Joseph Smith? You should study the final state of Esau-another worker of Iniquity-same spirit -differant body. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
[Original Message] From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/4/2003 10:40:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day * Still worried about my health Dave-I have been having shoulder problems lately-since you are so worried about my health DAVEH: I am far more worried about your spiritual health, Dean. If you start taking care of your inner self, perhaps your outer self will be less of a problem.. on sense? Look at it from a non Christians perspective Suppose a Buddhist, Jew or even an atheist saw a purportedly loving Christian So Dean...if you feel happy about weeding out the weaker Saints, I feel sorry for you. Not only for the destructive nature of your desires, but also for what you (or perhaps I should say the protesters who lower themselves to deplorable levels) are doing to your own soul. As I've said several times before in this Forum, one cannot wallow in the mud without becoming dirty. In my humble and sorrowful opinion..the despicable protesters in SLC have dirtied their souls and in doing so have shown their true lack of love for their fellow men. Dean writes: I find it interesting that to go out and preach the Gospel is considered wallowing in the mud by you- but I believe that a reprobated mind would see it this way for to them that perish -the preaching of the Gospel is foolishness. Enjoy what little life you have here Esau-for it will be you only pleasure-then you can join you god -Joseph Smith -in his final resting place where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] This is from Ruben Isreal
- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk Sent: 12/5/2003 10:35:17 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] FW: Care to help answer these questions Brothers? Dean Moore - Original Message - From: irebukeu To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];Kevin;Ron McRae;irebukeu;avtruth;avtruth;avtruth Sent: 12/5/2003 7:15:55 AM Subject: Care to help answer these questions Brothers? Dean, before you do this, would you consider talking about it? I have not gone to Salt Lake City yet, but there are two things that have bothered me from the reports. I would encourage you to come the first weekend of April 2004. Are the reports you are getting second hand, Mormon or from the Salt Lake City newspapers? When you have thousands of Mormons around you and you want to pass out tracts most if not all would walk right by you without taking much. Even with preaching out loud, most would keeping walking (I know by first hand experience there), so we have been known to go a little beyond, just to get them gathering around to listen. One is about somebody who wore a skull cap to mock James White, This is a guy is named Jeff and let me give you some back ground on him. He is not with us nor does he fellowship with Lonnie out there in S.L.C. he (Jeff) was married to a Mormon and both went to temple but his wwife-committedsuicide and he blames this on the church. He is now involved with Christian Identity and seems to have much bitterness against the Mormon church, but understand that Lonnie has been trying to counsel him also in all matters. He was upset with James White after hearing what white said about us. Knowing that we made a big impact during conference, he believed (as an outsider) like us that White was upset just out of pure envy. We did what he only tried to do, which is noise out a message to the convent ion, the city (local news and papers) the whole church (web-sites, etc). The same debate that White does in the evening with 150 people we do on the sidewalk with thousands. With no books or tapes to buy. Jeff had that skull hat with him and was not even going to be with Lonnie and Ruben, but decided to get it out it and on after Lonnie and Ruben preached to White with tailored banners. Jeff only stood between the banners for about ten minutes (if that) before James White walked off never to be seen again. Lonnie has rebuked Jeff and to date they do very little together because he might do something stupid that we do not wish to be apart of. and the other is about waving the Mormon underwear. People are motivated for a variety of reasons, but if you were to ask me why I used those garments it would be used to snap the Mormons out of their stupor. It is their convention, by their temple, in their city with us trying to obey their metropolis laws, as underdogs 98% of the Mormons would walk right by us. So we stun them to grab their attention, where we can break down into small conversations, which we would not have had. I do not mind tarnishing my good name with idiocy to expose their idiocy. Or why would a New Testament Church wear these garments if we have no record of the Apostles doing such? Is not the BLOOD OF JESUS enough??? It is a something they believe in and like the banners we use to get our message across. With the Catholics I have used rosary beads and with the Hare Krishnas I wear a cow costume, you grab their attention and give them a message tailored just for them.
RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean Moore wrote: -I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. jt: God is the one who will do this leaving us free to love people with the hope that they will be drawn to His son. *Sister are you suggesting that one cannot rebuke the sinner for sin as the Bible tells us to do. Isn't rebuking a form of Love? Luke 17:3 .. If thy brother trespass against thee,rebuke him, and if he repent forgive him. I Tim. 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all,that others also may fear. 2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word,be instant in season,out of season; reprove,rebuke,exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. If we rebuke for sin then others will fear to do that sin and not have to pay the price for that sin. This type of rebuke helps those that fear God-which most Mormon do not do. In their pride they ignore rebuke and laugh it off. DavidM: When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? Dean: * Bro.David-I see DaveH as being led by the Mormon spirit and realize that I am battling a spirit not a man. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order jt: But Dean you are dealing in the flesh with men when you wave Mormon underwear around outside their temple and when DaveH is personally mocked and demeaned on this list by you and/or others. * And how do you see his mockery of me on this list? In case you haven't noticed he has been mocking me for days now with his anger remarks-and he even spoke against the Holy Spirit of God and that seems to be ignored-but we are seen as wrong to expose those thing that a cult-that claims the name of Jesus Christ-uses to dishonor the very teaching of Christ himself. Sister I suggest you beware of seducing spirits from this reprobate. Esau and I have been here before-and each time he get young Christians to fight his battles for him-as he is doing now. At no time in our debate did I attempt to help Esau come to Christ-My debate with him was of one purpose and that was resist his teachings and expose them for what they are. He has heard enough preaching to save the entire world and has flatly reject the words of Christ-but still promotes Mormonism. Now consider the words of Jesus Himself Matt.12:30 He that is not with me is against me,and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Simple the Esau spirit that DaveH enjoys is seeking to scatter abroad-who is he seeking to scatter-you- and anybody else foolish enough to listen to him on this site. He has rejected truth for a lie not once but hundreds of times even those here have proved their point on the words of Jesus Christ Himself-he has tried to pervert those truths into Mormon lies. Spiritual warfare happens in prayer as we take authority over religious principalities and powers and wicked spirits along with the assignments they have been given. Why not just pray for the Satan then and end the entire struggle? How about Esau -he had Godly parents-surely Isaac would have prayed for him-yet he still went to hell. The point is when someone has proven to deny truth hundreds of times and resist truth to promote untruth- God often turns them over as I believe He has done to Esau/DaveH-and he has rooted himself deeply into this site.Seducing Spirits are named and warned against for a reason. Before when we had this debate I was rejected by the group on this list and DaveH/Esau was loved-DaveH has tried to anger me again soas I will say something hard towards him to get symphony from this list-just like any other reprobate-use people to get gain. Interesting huh? Love the sinner and hate the Brother in Christ-those seducing spirits will get you every time if one opens the door for them. Hopes this helps sister. May God bless you. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Ron Mcrae's reply -To shullcap/underware
Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Ron McRae To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];[EMAIL PROTECTED];Kevin;irebukeu;avtruth;avtruth;avtruth Sent: 12/5/2003 11:17:54 AM Subject: Re: Care to help answer these questions Brothers? From: Ron McRae I cannot comment on the skull cap beyond having been told the same. i met with Jeff in April last, and know Lonnie had a difficult time keeping this "running issue" in check. He has since stayed far from Lonnie, and it has helped alot. Concerning the use of Mormon garments as illustrations. I have asked everyone involved, and the Mormons have consistently blown the thing out of proportion, becasue they have no answer for their people, as to why these garments are so sacred. When there, I repeatedly held them up in the air and inquired of the same, with added emphasis as to how such could be "holy" considering what goes in them. Additionally, I made note of the summary judgement that "if this underwear is the fine linene and righteouseness of the Mormon church, then to see the righteousness of the Mormon church, you have to look into their underwear." Obviously, this is not an overstatement, though some within the Bible's classification, would say of it, like they did the apolstle Paul, that it was "rude speech" (see 2 Corinthians 11:6). I guess, I would partially be to blame for teaching some others my rude illustrations. No one wiped their posterior. This as far as I have been told from asking, is just the Mormon o verstatement. Concening the righteousness of such illustrations, Biblically I would send you to the following passages, where God's men utilized some of the same, · Architectural Graphics (Ezekiel 4:1-7). · Displays of human and animal waste as mans provision to illustrate the horrible conditions of upcoming judgment on mans condition (Ezekiel 4:9-17). · The graphic display of personal injury and blood (1 Kings 20:37-42). · The graphic and gorrish display of human dismemberments to arouse peoples concern and public opinion about governmental blindness to abominalbe immorality and sexual murder and sadism (Judges 19:25-30). Obviously, somethings can be taken overboard by zeal in absence of wisdom or discernment or just experience. Personally, the line should be drawn close to the above. Wiping the nose is borderline, but very effective attention getter, that shocks, but does not inflame or enrage. The young man who was attacked simply had the garment slung around his neck and shoulders. Hardly an attention getter. Happy is the man whose heart condemneth not himself in the thing that he alloweth. But we should not use that as an excuse to go beyond Biblical righteousness, and holiness in any illustration. Beyond this, God lead! Ron McRae - Original Message - From: irebukeu To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Kevin ; Ron McRae ; irebukeu ; avtruth ; avtruth ; avtruth Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 7:14 AM Subject: Care to help answer these questions Brothers? Dean, before you do this, would you consider talking about it? I have not gone to Salt Lake City yet, but there are two things that have bothered me from the reports. I would encourage you to come the first weekend of April 2004. Are the reports you are getting second hand, Mormon or from the Salt Lake City newspapers? When you have thousands of Mormons around you and you want to pass out tracts most if not all would walk right by you without taking much. Even with preaching out loud, most would keeping walking (I know by first hand experience there), so we have been known to go a little beyond, just to get them gathering around to listen. One is about somebody who wore a skull cap to mock James White, This is a guy is named Jeff and let me give you some back ground on him. He is not with us nor does he fellowship with Lonnie out there in S.L.C. he (Jeff) was married to a Mormon and both went to temple but his wwife-committedsuicide and he blames this on the church. He is now involved with Christian Identity and seems to have much bitterness against the Mormon church, but understand that Lonnie has been trying to counsel him also in all matters. He was upset with James White after hearing what white said about us. Knowing that we made a big impact during conference, he believed (as an outsider) like us that White was upset just out of pure envy. We did what he only tried to do, which is noise out a message to the convent ion, the city (local news and papers) the whole church (web-sites, etc). The same debate that White does in the evening with 150 people we do on the sidewalk with thousands. With no books or tapes to buy. Jeff had that skull hat with him and was not even going to be with Lonnie and Ruben, but decided to get it out it and on after Lonnie and Ruben preached to White with tailored banners. Jeff only stood between the banners for about ten minutes (if that) before James White walked off never to be seen again. Lonnie has rebuked Jeff and to date they do very
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean Moore wrote: -I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. jt: God is the one who will do this leaving us free to love people with the hope that they will be drawn to His son. *Sister are you suggesting that one cannot rebuke the sinner for sin as the Bible tells us to do. Isn't rebuking a form of Love? jt: The Bible isn't teaching us to go and beat the ignorant over the head with God's Word but to love them and share the Good News of God's redemption through Christ with them. Dean: Luke 17:3 .. If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and if he repent forgive him. I Tim. 5:20..Them that sin rebuke before all,that others also may fear. 2 Tim. 4:2 ..Preach the word,be instant in season, out of season; reprove,rebuke,exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. jt: The above are all written to the Church/community of believers. Dean: If we rebuke for sin then others will fear to do that sin and not have to pay the price for that sin. jt: This should be happening in the Church because sad to say there is as much if not more sin there and this is why we don't see the power of God as we should amongst the community of believers. Dean: This type of rebuke helps those that fear God-which most Mormon do not do. In their pride they ignore rebuke and laugh it off. jt: Because they are ignorant and don't know God Dean. They worship idols and are in a kind of religious bondage that will take more than histrionics in the streets to break. DavidM: When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? Dean: * Bro.David-I see DaveH as being led by the Mormon spirit and realize that I am battling a spirit not a man. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order jt: But Dean you are dealing in the flesh with men when you wave Mormon underwear around outside their temple and when DaveH is personally mocked and demeaned on this list by you and/or others. * And how do you see his mockery of me on this list? In case you haven't noticed he has been mocking me for days now with his anger remarks-and he even spoke against the Holy Spirit of God and that seems to be ignored-but we are seen as wrong to expose those thing that a cult-that claims the name of Jesus Christ-uses to dishonor the very teaching of Christ himself. jt: When did he speak against the Holy Spirit of God? So far as the mockery I see it going both ways and don't expect to see any good fruit result from it. You are the believer Dean and to whom much is given, much is required. Dean: Sister I suggest you beware of seducing spirits from this reprobate. Esau and I have been here before-and each time he get young Christians to fight his battles for him-as he is doing now. jt: I'm aware of the Spirit behind Mormonism and it holds no attraction for me. Are you kidding? Jesus set me free, why would I want to go into that kind of religious slavery? I'm not fighting you and am certainly not fighting any battles for DaveH. Dean: At no time in our debate did I attempt to help Esau come to Christ-My debate with him was of one purpose and that was resist his teachings and expose them for what they are. He has heard enough preaching to save the entire world and has flatly reject the words of Christ-but still promotes Mormonism. jt: Who is Esau? Is he a Mormon or a believer? No offense if he is still on TT but I can't imagine a mother giving her child such a name. Dean: Now consider the words of Jesus Himself Matt.12:30 He that is not with me is against me,and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. jt: Oh, there is no doubt that DaveH is not gathering with the real Jesus or that he is deceived. Our responsibility is to hold up the light of Truth - not choke him with it. Dean: Simple the Esau spirit that DaveH enjoys is seeking to scatter abroad-who is he seeking to scatter-you- and anybody else foolish enough to listen to him on this site. He has rejected truth for a lie not once but hundreds of times even those here have proved their point on the words of Jesus Christ Himself-he has tried to pervert those truths into Mormon lies. jt: Yes, because he has been a Mormon for almost 50yrs and apparently he has not been penetrated by what he has heard so far but I don't know that God has given him over to a reprobate mind yet - do you know this for sure? Spiritual warfare happens in prayer as we take authority over religious principalities and powers and wicked spirits along with the assignments they have been given. Dean: Why not just pray for the Satan then and end the entire struggle? jt: Am I understanding you correctly Dean? Dean: How about Esau -he had Godly parents-surely Isaac would have prayed for him-yet he still went to hell. The point is when someone has proven to deny truth hundreds of times and resist truth to promote untruth- God often turns them over as I believe He
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:45:31 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:jt: What a circus, the street preachers waving Mormon underwear and a Mormon jumping around in a monkey suit. How is God glorified in anyof this? whewy!!rof * 666!! [ftr, Terry C. wrote recently about the biblicity of street preachers preaching effectively, publically (e.g.,in SLC), not of makin' asses outa themselves...rather than a DavidM posting a pose of DaveH in Mormon underware, maybea pose of DaveH in one of these Mormon monkey suits; that could help the street preachersto chillout, like puttin' a human faceon a baboon--what do you think, jt?] gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Hi GaryO: Actually I think the zeal is good andthe street preacherswell meaning. However some appear to use this as a means to vent anger and on the wholesome wisdom/knowledge to add to the zeal would be a good thing; the underwear/monkey suit antics are definitely over the top - entertainment value ONLY. Judy On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:45:31 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:jt: What a circus, the street preachers waving Mormon underwear and a Mormon jumping around in a monkey suit. How is God glorified in anyof this? whewy!!rof * 666!! [ftr, Terry C. wrote recently about the biblicity of street preachers preaching effectively, publically (e.g.,in SLC), not of makin' asses outa themselves...rather than a DavidM posting a pose of DaveH in Mormon underware, maybea pose of DaveH in one of these Mormon monkey suits; that could help the street preachersto chillout, like puttin' a human faceon a baboon--what do you think, jt?] gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
- Original Message - From: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12/5/2003 5:50:00 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day Hi GaryO: Actually I think the zeal is good andthe street preacherswell meaning. However some appear to use this as a means to vent anger and on the wholesome wisdom/knowledge to add to the zeal would be a good thing; the underwear/monkey suit antics are definitely over the top - entertainment value ONLY. Judy Dean Moore writes: And where does it place your statement with God-if in fact- God led the street preachers to dishonor those items that the Heathen hold sacred. How then would God view your prayers? How about the others on this list-The Holy Spirit was spoken ill of and you are more concerned about the heathen being offended- I wash my hands of the lot of you-may God have mercy on your souls you will need it asI am definitely offended-. I saw your brothers and sisters across the street in Columbus Ohio with a sign saying "Gays we Christians welcome you" I was appalled then andI am appalled now. For you don't know what you speak-those brothers you hold judgement over are twice the Christians most here will ever be and you join the Mormons in condemning their actions- You have no respect to those who have the courage to actually fight the war you should be helping to fight. Yes- mock the street preachers but don't offend the Mormon dog who eats at your table. I have no partwith you as you havenopartwith me. Pet and feed your dog well as it will be the only good life he has. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:45:31 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:jt: What a circus, the street preachers waving Mormon underwear and a Mormon jumping around in a monkey suit. How is God glorified in anyof this? whewy!!rof * 666!! [ftr, Terry C. wrote recently about the biblicity of street preachers preaching effectively, publically (e.g.,in SLC), not of makin' asses outa themselves...rather than a DavidM posting a pose of DaveH in Mormon underware, maybea pose of DaveH in one of these Mormon monkey suits; that could help the street preachersto chillout, like puttin' a human faceon a baboon--what do you think, jt?] gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean, Calm down a minute, please;first, let's see you post a reasonablecase for the comment below.In my view, the kingdom of Godisn't forgedon anyone's angry words--not even on JCs. FTR, You're soundin' like you've never read one of my posts against DaveHs views--note the wording of this comment. Please--the man isas ripe forredemption as anyone else,but on God's terms, not on mine or yours. Holdin' up his 'dirty laundry' in public has an effect, perhaps humiliating, too;but how about if we all had towatch youstring 'it' fromthe line? Are you sayin' you yourself ain't got none now(?);that you're one of these chronically unrepentin'holiness prigs who's more Christian than Christ? gentleman On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:19:16 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [If..]God led the street preachers to dishonor those items that the Heathen hold sacred.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gregga/hebrew/xmastree.html The Pagan Origin of The Christmas Tree The concept of the Christmas Tree originated around 3000 B.C. in ancient Egypt with King Osiris and Queen Isis.After the untimely death of King Osiris, his wife, Isis, propogated the demonic doctrine of the survival of Osiris as a spirit. She claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead stump, symbolising the new life of the Osiris spirit from his death. On each anniversary of Osiris birth, which was the date we now know as December 25th, Isis would leave gifts around this tree. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees I remember last year we had a big thread about Christmas trees. I came across this while planning my calendar for Parents Day Out and thought it was interesting. Laura The tradition of decorating the Paradeisbaum, or Paradise trees, originated in Europe. Christians would celebrate the holiday on Christmas Eve by acting out important events in Scripture. One of the skits that was performed was the 'The Garden of Eden' scene. Since it was the wintertime in Europe it was not possible to find an apple tree with apples, so an evergreen tree would be substituted. The actors first hung apples on their "Paradise Trees", later adding other adornments such as dried fruits and nuts. The increase in popularity of the Paradeisbaum is attributed to Martin Luther. It is believed that he first added lighted candles to his Paradise Tree after walking home through the woods one winter evening. He was in the midst of composing a sermon and was awestruck by the brilliance of the millions of twinkling stars above the evergreens. So inspired by the beauty of God's creation, he cut down an evergreen and brought it home to his family, then wired lighted candles to the tree to recreate the starlit scene. Paradise trees eventually became known as 'Christ Trees', then Christmas Trees. It is believed that Christmas trees were brought to America by Germans that immigrated to Pennsylvania. The diary of Matthew Zahm of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, records the introduction of the Christmas tree being brought to the New World December 20, 1821.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Yikes Marlin, I was just trying to give another perspective. We went the pagan route last year. Why not try another approach this year! LOL Laura
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean Moore writes: And where does it place your statement with God-if in fact- God led the street preachers to dishonor those items that the Heathen hold sacred. jt: Dean I believe God led Elijah to challenge the prophets of Baal at Mt. Carmel and I know that many street preachers like to identify with him. However, I don't believe that humiliating, demeaning, and mocking these people will bringthese peopleto Christ if this is your intent. Dean: How then would God view your prayers? How about the others on this list-The Holy Spirit was spoken ill of and you are more concerned about the heathen being offended- I wash my hands of the lot of you-may God have mercy on your souls you will need it asI am definitely offended-. I saw your brothers and sisters across the street in Columbus Ohio with a sign saying "Gays we Christians welcome you" I was appalled then andI am appalled now. jt: I know nothing about anything going on in Columbus Ohio Dean so don't lump me in with any of that. I don't condone sin but I do believe we are to care about the sinner. They are already condemned so why heap more of that on them? Speaking the truth to them is in order but it needs to be done in love. Dean: For you don't know what you speak-those brothers you hold judgement over are twice the Christians most here will ever be and you join the Mormons in condemning their actions- You have no respect to those who have the courage to actually fight the war you should be helping to fight. Yes- mock the street preachers but don't offend the Mormon dog who eats at your table. I have no partwith you as you havenopartwith me. Pet and feed your dog well as it will be the only good life he has. jt: Excuse me? I have not judged the first person so far -and have notmocked anyone either. I don't like many of the tactics used by the street preachers.The 'in your face' approach and someattitudes expressed are not of God. Why are you not concerned about putting a stumbling block in the way of people Dean? Should I refuse to have my daughter's friend to our house because he does not know the truth? What kind of Christianity is that? Judy
[TruthTalk] Esau spirit?
Dean, You'd better be careful. I got reprimanded several years on TT ago for telling a certain mormon that he needs to stop his pretences and just get on his knees and repent and get saved. So I just dont interact with them anymore, as I dont have the freedom to cut to the bottom line and speak the facts. I dont like being jerked around by ever twisting, supposedly cunning questions that, on the spiritual level are just intended to confuse and drag the gullible lost into the pit. You cant convince anyone of truth if they have no desire to know truth; and conversely you cant learn any truth from them. I just like to discuss issues with truly truth-hungry people because I learn more from them than anyone else on TT. What do you see as the similarity between DaveH and Esau? While my flesh finds DaveH to be a sweet, harmless guy, my spirit says there is serious darkness in Mormonism. (Dave, please tune outIm not talking about YOU in particular; just ALL mormon folk in general!) I see the underlying mormon spirit as being very deceptive and manipulative. On the surface they appear to be sincere and kindly. And I think they really intend to be that. Well meaning people take them seriously and discuss issues to the point of ridiculousness, but to me its as plain as the nose on their faceits a deceptive ploy (perhaps they arent really even aware of themselves; just the spirit within them) when they say they really want to know what Christians believe. If they really wanted to know, theyd sure have learned it by now. Am I off base, or what? Izzy PS Dean, are you also Carroll? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day [Original Message] From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/5/2003 9:54:05 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day Dean Moore wrote: -I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. DAVEH: Well Dean...You've certainly done that! * No just started-it just takes longer with some then it does others but the end results will be the same-because the battle isn't mine but the Lords. When you say you will do it in honor of DaveH, are you saying this in irony, as if you really mean to hurt Dave? * Bro.David-I see DaveH as being led by the Mormon spirit and realize that I am battling a spirit not a man. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order DAVEH: I'm sorry you feel that way, Dean. :-( *Still worried about my health I see and now my soul-which is in the hands of Jesus Christ-should you really be so concerned as I am putting my trust in Him and not the teachings of Joseph Smith? You should study the final state of Esau-another worker of Iniquity-same spirit -differant body. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Laura, I would like to hear you disprove what Marlin says rather than just laugh it off. If it is possible that this is true, then shouldnt we all look into the ramifications? Do you know it not to be true? Even if it is true, does that automatically mean that the Lord disproves of us having Christmas trees today? Is it possible that we could be doing something that seems like an innocuous tradition that is really offensive to the Lord? Is that not possible? This seems like a relevant issue worthy of discussion. If we have a brother who is disturbed enough about this to warn us, shouldnt we be kind enough to discuss this issue rather than just ridicule him? I know you have a kind heart, Laura. So what do you think? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Yikes Marlin, I was just trying to give another perspective. We went the pagan route last year. Why not try another approach this year! LOL Laura
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean, as I said before I read all of this, Be careful. Another deceptive ploy of the mormon spirit is to be so sweet that it turns your brethren against you. If you are discerning enough to be aware of this, you are considered to be mean-spirited. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Moore Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 5:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day - Original Message - From: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12/5/2003 5:50:00 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day Hi GaryO: Actually I think the zeal is good andthe street preacherswell meaning. However some appear to use this as a means to vent anger and on the wholesome wisdom/knowledge to add to the zeal would be a good thing; the underwear/monkey suit antics are definitely over the top - entertainment value ONLY. Judy Dean Moore writes: And where does it place your statement with God-if in fact- God led the street preachers to dishonor those items that the Heathen hold sacred. How then would God view your prayers? How about the others on this list-The Holy Spirit was spoken ill of and you are more concerned about the heathen being offended- I wash my hands of the lot of you-may God have mercy on your souls you will need it asI am definitely offended-. I saw your brothers and sisters across the street in Columbus Ohio with a sign saying Gays we Christians welcome you I was appalled then andI am appalled now. For you don't know what you speak-those brothers you hold judgement over are twice the Christians most here will ever be and you join the Mormons in condemning their actions- You have no respect to those who have the courage to actually fight the war you should be helping to fight. Yes- mock the street preachers but don't offend the Mormon dog who eats at your table.. I you as you havenopartwith me. Pet and feed your dog well as it will be the only good life he has. On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:45:31 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: What a circus, the street preachers waving Mormon underwear and a Mormon jumping around in a monkey suit. How is God glorified in any of this? whewy!!rof * 666!! [ftr, Terry C. wrote recently about the biblicity of street preachers preaching effectively, publically (e.g.,in SLC), not of makin' asses outa themselves...rather than a DavidM posting a pose of DaveH in Mormon underware, maybea pose of DaveH in one of these Mormon monkey suits; that could help the street preachersto chillout, like puttin' a human faceon a baboon--what do you think, jt?] gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Two things
Terry, Ive had non-stop houseguests for the past month, so am now trying to go back and catch up a bit. I really liked your post herequite excellent. However, Im wondering; does the below statement refer to me? Maybe not. But, if so, what do you know about what I do other than stay at home? And if even if a woman did only stay at home, this would be scriptural* (and I consider it my main calling in life.) Have you ever considered all of the ministries a woman can do entirely from her home? Its such an awesome calling to be a homemaker!!! I also do not consider it fitting or likely that the Lord would call a woman to do the kind of street preaching which some of our brothers here are called to do. There may be exceptions, but none Im aware of. (Although He does allow some of us to preach via the internet. J) Izzy, *Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. -Original Message- God did not give all of us the same personality, and God never expected us to conform ourselves to one mould. God can use anyone who wants to be used with one possible exception. I do not see anywhere where He used someone who simply stayed home and said,Look at me. I am a good example. Terry
[TruthTalk] Why we use temple garments
Open rebuke is better than Secret Love Prov 27:5 As Bible Believers, we take the Bible as without error. The Bible commands us to preach to every man. It also calls us to Reprove Rebuke (2 Timothy 4:2). 2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" As instructed in 2 Tim 3:16 we preach the word, sometimes the crowd needs some GOOD DOCTRINE, needs some CORRECTION, needs some REPROOF and INSTRUCTION. HATING EVEN THE GARMENTThe bible talks of a garment spotted by the fire, that we are to hate.Jude 1:22-23 "And of some have compassion making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the fire." The temple garments are held to be sacred, by the LDS people. It is actually the ocultic symbols on these garments, that matter. A garment removed of these symbols, may safely be used as a rag. These false coverings are a "filthy garment", a work of the flesh, that can never cover sin. This is an offense and an affront to the sacrifice of Christ. In the book of Zechariah Chapter3 Joshua the high priest was clothed in filthy garments. The Lord called him and made him, a brand, plucked out of the fire. Zech 3:4 "Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." God clothed him with a change of raiment caused his iniquity to pass. God did the work. In the garden Adam Eve tried unsuccessfully, to cover their sin with "fig leaf Aprons". For some time in the Temple grounds vistor center you could view Adam Eve at a altar with the fruit of the ground on the altar. A lamb lays peacefully near the altar. This is the sacrifice of Cain, that was rejected by God, in Gen 4:5 In fact God had "no respect" to Cain's offering. Neither will I respect garments that give a false hope to millions. Mant "faithful" LDS are buried in these garments. Just like Cain (Gen 4:5), some self righteous LDS become "very wroth" over the exposing of the things done in secret rituals. In many cases this is anger over the exposing of their sin. The popular logic of today would say the Apostles were not acting like christians since they got the following response! "being grieved" that they "preached" "Jesus" "they laid hands on them" Acts 4:2 Threatenings Acts 4:29, Laid hands on them again in Acts 5:18 and put them in JAIL! If that was not bad enough the angel of the Lord tells them to of all things speak "IN" the temple. Then being "cut to the heart" over the things they heard they took counsel to slay the Apostles Acts 5:23 Acts 5:40 They beat them commanded them to not speak in the name of Jesus. You say we are doing it wrong? Should we stop speaking? How are you going about speaking in His name? Acts 4:19-20 Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.SACRIFICE OF CAINGen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. The lds wear a "fig leaf apron" in the Secret Temple ceremonies.God's provided covering was a bloody covering. The LDS refuse the bloody sacrifice and instead cover themselves with a man made garment.Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Hebrews 9:22 without shedding of blood is no remission. We are to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ.Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins Only the covering that was provided by God worked. Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness Psalms 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness It is our Duty to tell those that have a "strange" covering that God will punish them. Zephaniah 1:8 The Lord will punish all those that are clothed in strange apparel Fig Leaf Aprons and other strange garments that are a work of the Flesh are Repugnant to God. "Hating even the garment spotted by the fire", we preach that those wearing, this covering will not be protected on judgement day but will be punished by God. Their Iniquity will not pass unless God does the work. Only the Blood of Christ can cover all sin. Like the dead waters of the Great Salt Lake these people have refused the water of Life freely given and have chosen rather a way of Evil.Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
[TruthTalk] E-mail from a Captain in Iraq
-Original Message- Subject: FW: E-mail from a Captain in Iraq (Thanks to Sam Wainscott, Dayton VetRep) An Email from a Captain in Iraq We knew there was a dinner planned with ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. There were 600 seats available and all the units in the division weretasked with filling a few tables. Naturally, the 501st MI battalion got ourtable. Soldiers were grumbling about having to sit through another dog-and-pony show, so we had to pick soldiers to attend. I chose not to go. But, about 1500 the G2, LTC Devan, came up to me and with a smile, asked me to come to dinner with him, to meet him in his office at 1600 and bring a camera. I didn't really care about getting a picture with Sanchez or Bremer, but when the division's senior intelligence officer asks you to go, you go. We were seated in the chow hall, fully decorated for thanksgiving when all kinds of secret service guys showed up. That was my first clue, because Bremer's been here before and his personal security detachment is not that big. Then BG Dempsey got up to speak, and he welcomed ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. Bremer thanked us all and pulled out a piece of paper as if to give a speech. He mentioned that the President had given him this thanksgiving speech to give to the troops. He then paused and said that the senior man present should be the one to give it. He then looked at Sanchez, who just smiled. Bremer then said that we should probably get someone more senior to read the speech. Then, from behind the camouflage netting, the President of the United States came around. The mess hall actually erupted with hollering. Troops bounded to their feet with shocked smiles and just began cheering with all their hearts. The building actually shook. It was just unreal. I was absolutely stunned. Not only for the obvious, but also because I was only two tables away from the podium. There he stood, less than thirty feet away from me! The cheering went on and on and on. Soldiers were hollering, cheering, and a lot of them were crying. There was not a dry eye at my table. When he stepped up to the cheering, I could clearly see tears running down his cheeks. It was the most surreal moment I've had in years. Not since my wedding and Aaron being born. Here was this man, our President, came all the way around the world, spending 17 hours on an airplane and landing in the most dangerous airport in the world, where a plane was shot out of the sky not six days before. Just to spend two hours with his troops. Only to get on a plane and spend another 17 hours flying back. It was a great moment, and I will never forget it. He delivered his speech, which we all loved, when he looked right at me and held his eyes on me. Then he stepped down and was just mobbed by the soldiers. He slowly worked his way all the way around the chow hall and shook every last hand extended. Every soldier who wanted a photo with the President got one. I made my way through the line, got dinner, then wolfed it down as he was still working the room. You could tell he was really enjoying himself. It wasn't just a photo opportunity. This man was actually enjoying himself! He worked his way over the course of about 90 minutes towards my side of the room. Meanwhile, I took the opportunity to shake a few hands. I got a picture with Ambassador Bremer, Talabani (acting Iraqi president) and Achmed Chalabi (another member of the ruling council) and Condaleeza Rice, who was there with him. I felt like I was drunk. He was getting closer to my table so I went back over to my seat. As he passed and posed for photos, he looked my in the eye and How you doin', captain. I smiled and said God bless you, sir. To which he responded I'm proud of what you do, captain. Then moved on. * -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
Dean Moore wrote: -I do believe that all false beliefs should be shown as foolishness. DAVEH: Well Dean...You've certainly done that! * No just started-it just takes longer with some then it does others but the end results will be the same-because the battle isn't mine but the Lords. DAVEH: H.Just a word of caution, Dean. I'm not sure the Lord will appreciate you dragging him down into the muck with the lunatic protesters. I believe that DaveH is a worker of iniquity of the first order DAVEH: I'm sorry you feel that way, Dean. :-( *Still worried about my health DAVEH: Just your spiritual health, Dean. I see and now my soul-which is in the hands of Jesus Christ-should you really be so concerned as I am putting my trust in Him and not the teachings of Joseph Smith? You should study the final state of Esau DAVEH: And Dean, may I in return suggest you study the gospel message of charity.the pure love of Christ. -another worker of Iniquity-same spirit -differant body. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Fwd: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Below is more from the site Marlin recommended. Note that it also mentions the fruitlike tree from the garden of Eden. Interesting that it is also mentioned in the article I posted. Personally I think that if someone feels a Christmas Tree is pagan and if it doesn't represent the "symbols" associated with Christmas then it is wrong for them to have a tree. I like the tree as a symbol and the lights and ornaments and other decorations. In no way am I intending to put down Marlin. My intent is only to point out that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others. Question: Would any of you consider Nativity sets idols? Just curious. Laura During the Middle Ages, the Germans believed the evergreen trees were especially imbued with life since they remained green throughout all of winter. Greenery was prominent in pagan winter celebrations in honour of the tree spirit or spirit of fertility.The Romans trimmed the trees with trinkets and toys at that time of year. The Druids tied gilded apples to tree branches. For many, a tree decorated with orbs and fruit-like object symbolised the tree of life in the garden of Eden. ---BeginMessage--- http://members.iinet.net.au/~gregga/hebrew/xmastree.html The Pagan Origin of The Christmas Tree The concept of the Christmas Tree originated around 3000 B.C. in ancient Egypt with King Osiris and Queen Isis.After the untimely death of King Osiris, his wife, Isis, propogated the demonic doctrine of the survival of Osiris as a spirit. She claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead stump, symbolising the new life of the Osiris spirit from his death. On each anniversary of Osiris birth, which was the date we now know as December 25th, Isis would leave gifts around this tree. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees I remember last year we had a big thread about Christmas trees. I came across this while planning my calendar for Parents Day Out and thought it was interesting. Laura The tradition of decorating the Paradeisbaum, or Paradise trees, originated in Europe. Christians would celebrate the holiday on Christmas Eve by acting out important events in Scripture. One of the skits that was performed was the 'The Garden of Eden' scene. Since it was the wintertime in Europe it was not possible to find an apple tree with apples, so an evergreen tree would be substituted. The actors first hung apples on their "Paradise Trees", later adding other adornments such as dried fruits and nuts. The increase in popularity of the Paradeisbaum is attributed to Martin Luther. It is believed that he first added lighted candles to his Paradise Tree after walking home through the woods one winter evening. He was in the midst of composing a sermon and was awestruck by the brilliance of the millions of twinkling stars above the evergreens. So inspired by the beauty of God's creation, he cut down an evergreen and brought it home to his family, then wired lighted candles to the tree to recreate the starlit scene. Paradise trees eventually became known as 'Christ Trees', then Christmas Trees. It is believed that Christmas trees were brought to America by Germans that immigrated to Pennsylvania. The diary of Matthew Zahm of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, records the introduction of the Christmas tree being brought to the New World December 20, 1821. ---End Message---
