subject:"Re\: \[TruthTalk\] 613 Commands"






On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:30:51 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  The 
  below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We don't need God's 
  law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We certainly aren't 
  fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our own man-made ways of 
  worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do it. We've figured out 
  and our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't you agree? Sounds like it to 
  me, otherwise, why not do as He says to do in His commands?? 
  Kay
  
  Why would 
  God,restore the old carnal regulations and practices when something far 
  better, with transcendent promises, has arrived? God has made everything 
  new! The new order eclipses the old regulations and practices, which 
  were only shadows of the good things to come (Heb. 10:1).
   To put it another way, why would God return to 
  the Old after having created the New? This would be regression, not 
  progression. Or, why would God retreat by reinstating the 
  carnal when He has resurrected the spiritual? Why would any believer 
  want to surrender his spiritual status in this new age and return to the 
  carnal, external, and legalistic arrangement under Moses? Well, 
  why?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




John, start with Acts 15. Realizing that Gentiles coming 
into the faith presented a problem for fellowship with Jewish believers, the 
council established the BARE MINIMUM of requirements in order that Gentiles 
could fellowship with Jews. Then verse 21 tells us that in time these 
gentiles would learn Torah. This evening I'll try to expandon this. I 
don't have time this morning.
Jeff

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 
  21:59
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:09:53 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  And there is no differencebetween God's commandments and 
Jesus' commandments.1) Does not your view of 
  the commandments include holy days, and imperatives that involve all of the 
  Mosaical Law with the exception of the sacrifical laws? 2) Since 
  I am a Gentile -- where in scripture is Mosaical Law bound upon me in 
  Jesus?3) Am I nonetheless a brother in Christ ?John

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




those under the Mosaic Covenant which has been 
fulfilled in Christ are to be one with us "in Him" and walk after the 
Spirit.

And here's a place where 
you're wrong twice. I will explain the fist part now, and the second later in a 
different email after work. "They" (Jews)are not to join "us" (Christian) 
in Him." The "Us" (Christian) are to join the "They" (Jews) "in Him." Read 
Romans 11 again. Which was does the sap travel???

Secondly, your concept 
of "after the Spirit" is very different from mine, and I will et to that 
later.

-- 
slade

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Sorry.
What is clear to one is not clear to another. I see ONE HOUSE and ONE servant
(Moses) and ONE Son (Yeshua). God is the builder of the ONE
house.

-
slade

PLUS I really wish you would LISTEN to what people say, Judy. NEVER
has ANYONE said "613 Commands
plus Jesus" STOP accusing people of this.Your trump card does not
work in Tic-Tac-Toe!

-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes
JonathanSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 10.55To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands
Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement with
you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point to Christ
as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus Jesus.
From past posts of yourswhich seemed to place primacy on the law and
types I would have thought you would be more supportive of Suzy's
position. It appears that I was wrong in thinking this of you.
What I am now trying to understand is why you still think we are under the
blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws of
Deuteronomy. Please understand that I am honestly attempting to
understand you here, not to mock you. I have no follow-up post to slam
you regardless of what your answer is. I am attempting to put together
why from my perspective there seems to be a disconnect. Basically, why
are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in Christ when the law was?
Can we separate them out so that one still applies? Your answer may be
that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ but that the blessings/curses
have a different purpose and therefore are still in
effect.

By the way I think that your'two covenants/houses'
analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes

"Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly
calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High
Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses
also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of more glory
than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house
has more honor than the house. For every house is built by
someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a
testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was
faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are
IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our
hope firm until the end" Judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy,
I think a lot of problems of understanding happen when we do not define our 
terms in mutually agreeable ways. For example, I understand Levitical law 
to be more than just ceremonial law. You seem to see it differently. 
You wrote:

Judy wrote:The Levitical or Ceremonial law is 
what Christ fulfilled butGod's moral standard or moral law still stands 
and this is what we are judged by in the Last Day.

I consider the following part of the Levitical law: Leviticus 
19:17-18(17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in 
any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. (18) Thou 
shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but 
thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. These 
commandments are moral, aren't they? The biggest problem I have about this idea 
of differentiating "moral" law from "ceremonial" law is the fourth commandment, 
keep the seventh day sabbath. Is this law "ceremonial" or "moral"? 
Maybe you can answer this first. I'm out of time right now anyway. 
Peace be with you. David Miller. 

jt: When I say "Ceremonial Law" I believe you know what 
I mean David -The Levitical priesthood, the Temple with it's ritual and 
sacrifices and all of the feasts which were a shadow of what was to come. 
As for Commandments, if you want to be 
technical about it -there is no new Commandment, they have all been there 
since the beginning and this includes love (see 1 John 3:11, 2 John 5, Lev 
19:18) because God does not change and neither does His standard for 
righteousness and holiness. judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




DAVID MILLER: This is what I'm meaning. SOMETIMES 
you are a sophisticated version of Judy. One (this one) occasionally 'wishes' , 
not hopes, to say: Enough Already!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Slade 
  Henson 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: November 16, 2004 05:30
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  those under the Mosaic Covenant which has been 
  fulfilled in Christ are to be one with us "in Him" and walk after the 
  Spirit.
  
  And here's a place 
  where you're wrong twice. I will explain the fist part now, and the second 
  later in a different email after work. "They" (Jews)are not to join "us" 
  (Christian) in Him." The "Us" (Christian) are to join the "They" (Jews) "in 
  Him." Read Romans 11 again. Which was does the sap 
  travel???
  
  Secondly, your concept 
  of "after the Spirit" is very different from mine, and I will et to that 
  later.
  
  -- 
  slade

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:30:23 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  those under the Mosaic Covenant which has been 
  fulfilled in Christ are to be one with us "in Him" and walk after the 
  Spirit.
  
  And here's a place 
  where you're wrong twice. I will explain the fist part now, and the second 
  later in a different email after work. "They" (Jews)are not to join "us" 
  (Christian) in Him." The "Us" (Christian) are to join the "They" (Jews) "in 
  Him." Read Romans 11 again. Which was does the sap 
  travel???
  
  jt: The point I was 
  making was not who was first Slade, it was that Christ has broken down the 
  wall of partition and made every nation of "one blood" - If you are so proud 
  of your Jewishness that you want to keep making that a distinction, then this 
  is your sin. In Romans 11 Israel is the natural branch which has been 
  cut off because of unbelief so if we were depending on Israel for sap we would 
  be in sad shape. ButIsrael is not the root -Jesus is the 
  rootand He is no longer exclusive. We don't bear the root, He 
  bears us - that is, ALL of us and He is no respecter of any man's 
  person. judyt
  
  Secondly, your concept 
  of "after the Spirit" is very different from mine, and I will et to that 
  later.
  
  -- 
  slade

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:51:36 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  DAVID MILLER: This is what I'm meaning. SOMETIMES 
  you are a sophisticated version of Judy. One (this one) occasionally 'wishes' 
  , not hopes, to say: Enough Already!
  
  jt: You certainly are full of 
  yourself Lance Muir. Had you ever in your wildest dreams considered the 
  possibility as wild as it may seem thatJudy and her sophisticated 
  version may not be quite so blind and deaf as you suppose? God will be God you 
  know
  

From: 
Slade 
Henson 
those under the Mosaic 
Covenant which has been fulfilled in Christ are to be one with us "in Him" 
and walk after the Spirit.

And here's a place 
where you're wrong twice. I will explain the fist part now, and the second 
later in a different email after work. "They" (Jews)are not to join 
"us" (Christian) in Him." The "Us" (Christian) are to join the "They" (Jews) 
"in Him." Read Romans 11 again. Which was does the sap 
travel???

Secondly, your 
concept of "after the Spirit" is very different from mine, and I will et to 
that later.

-- 
slade

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




'may not be quite so blind and deaf as you (I) 
suppose?' Yes it has.The point stands or falls based on it's intrinsic 
truthfulness.



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: November 16, 2004 06:06
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  
  On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:51:36 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
DAVID MILLER: This is what I'm meaning. 
SOMETIMES you are a sophisticated version of Judy. One (this one) 
occasionally 'wishes' , not hopes, to say: Enough Already!

jt: You certainly are full of 
yourself Lance Muir. Had you ever in your wildest dreams considered the 
possibility as wild as it may seem thatJudy and her sophisticated 
version may not be quite so blind and deaf as you suppose? God will be God 
you know

  
  From: 
  Slade Henson 
  those under the Mosaic 
  Covenant which has been fulfilled in Christ are to be one with us "in Him" 
  and walk after the Spirit.
  
  And here's a place 
  where you're wrong twice. I will explain the fist part now, and the second 
  later in a different email after work. "They" (Jews)are not to join 
  "us" (Christian) in Him." The "Us" (Christian) are to join the "They" 
  (Jews) "in Him." Read Romans 11 again. Which was does the sap 
  travel???
  
  Secondly, your 
  concept of "after the Spirit" is very different from mine, and I will et 
  to that later.
  
  -- 
  slade

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:52:21 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  jt: since the cross we are capable 
  of fulfilling the moral law through Him." "Unbelief will certainly 
  keep us from fulfilling God's moral law 
  "
  
  Slade: What 
  does this mean, Judy,in the sense of action on the part of redeemed 
  humanity? Are we simply to "believe" and we do all that's necessary under the 
  Moral Code?
  
  jt: Slade 
  The goal of the instruction is "love from a pure heart" and at the 
  beginningwe have neither. Our problem is is one 
  ofthe"heart"rather than with "activity" because we are by 
  nature children of wrath and we do not want to come to the light so that our 
  deeds can be made manifest. We find it easy to pray token prayers and to 
  make a good religious show after the flesh making standards by whichwe 
  judge other peoplebut God weighs the heart and/or motives.So 
  walking after, or being led by God's Spirit means that we walk in the light as 
  He (Jesus) is in the light. We keep short accounts with God and deal 
  with sin as it is revealed to usby the indwelling Spirit. It is 
  taking our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ and renewingour 
  minds by the washing of the water of the Word. All of this is paramount 
  because faith works by love and without faith it is impossible to please 
  Him. The opposite is an evil heart of unbelief.
  
  jt: 
  "Faith was necessary under the law 
  also and grace must have been there; they were either blessed or cursed 
  according to their choices in life" 
  
  Are you able to prove Grace existed then? Please use 
  addresses.-- slade
  
  jt: 
  My definition of grace is the power to do as we ought rather than something 
  that covers sin so that we don't have to deal with it. Israel didn't 
  have the indwelling Spirit (Promise)the way we do on this side of the 
  cross but God made provision through the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial 
  system which was His grace for that generation and when they were obedient 
  from the heart they walked in Hisblessings - disobedience brought the 
  curse as it does today. judyt
  
  
  


From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
Taylor
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:31:09 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes: Hi Judy, 

  Thank you for your quick reply. I just want to 
  make sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic 
  alone. So often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to conclusions 
  about what others think. OftenI am only creating a parody of 
  what they actually believe. While it may lead to a few funny/angry 
  posts it does tend to hinder dialogue rather than contribute to 
  it.
  
  jt: Whether or not we are in complete agreement when all is 
  said and done Jonathan, I do appreciate your willingness to try 
  andunderstand what I'm about and I thank you for 
  that.
  
  In your response you only referred to 
  blessing/cursing in the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would it 
  be safe for me to think that you include the blessing/cursing of 
  Deuteronomy within the concept/category of moral law, and not in the 
  category of Levitical law? 
  
  jt: Yes.In Deuteronomy God refers to the diseases 
  ofEgypt which were well before the Law of Moses was given at 
  Sinai.
  
  If this is true, would you be saying that while the 
  Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ,moral law, which 
  includes the concepts of blessing and cursing, still affects us 
  today? 
  
  jt: Yes. In Christ we have everythingnecessary to 
  overcome and walk in God's blessing including a cleansed conscience which 
  was not available underLevitical law. Though divine healing was 
  there for them and it is for us as well as we walk in repentance and learn 
  to love.
  
  A few other questions that would help me clarify your 
  position:
  
  1) Would itbe true that while only Christ 
  could fulfill the Levitical Law, all of us are capable of fulfilling the 
  moral law? 
  
  jt: Yes. Only He 
  was without spot or blemish, not having any inheritance in the first Adam 
  - and since the cross we are capable of fulfilling the moral law through 
  Him.
  
  2) Does the same 'thing' that kept Israel from 
  fulfilling the Levitical law also keep us from fulfilling God's moral 
  law?
  
  jt: Unbelief will certainly keep us from fulfilling God's 
  moral law and this is a constant battle because we have an enemy who has 
  been around for a long time and who knows lots of tricks and God allows us 
  to be tested but not beyond what we are able to bear.
  
  3)Does the same grace of God that enables 
  us to fulfill the Levitical law also enable us to

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:19:42 -0500 "Jeff Powers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John, start with Acts 15. Realizing that Gentiles coming into the 
faith presented a problem for fellowship with Jewish believers, the council 
established the BARE MINIMUM of requirements in order that Gentiles could 
fellowship with Jews. Then verse 21 tells us that in time these gentiles 
would learn Torah. This evening I'll try to expandon this. I don't have 
time this morning. Jeff

jt: Don't think so Jeff, the problem was 
the Judaisers who followed Paul and Barnabus constantly spying out their liberty 
in Christ and who wanted to put theGentile believers under the law of 
Moses by circumcizing them. I know you don't see this as a problem but the 
Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 did and so did Paul when he wrote the book of 
Galatians. Moses being read in Synagogues every week means just 
that. It does not mean that Gentiles were required to memorize all of 
theTorah.Anywaythe minds of the Jewish people outside of 
Christ are hardened with a veil that is only removed in Him so that they have no 
understanding. (2 Cor 3:14)

  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
In a message dated 
11/15/2004 5:09:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:And there is no difference between God's commandments and Jesus' 
commandments.1) Does not your view of the commandments include 
holy days, and imperatives that involve all of the 
Mosaical Law with the exception of the sacrifical laws? 
2) Since I am a Gentile -- where in scripture is Mosaical Law 
bound upon me in Jesus?3) Am I nonetheless a brother in Christ 
?John

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Uh-oh. 
What did Lance say?? I must have lost it...sometimes it gets hard to follow 
these threads.

K.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 
  21.53To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] 613 CommandsIn a message dated 
  11/15/2004 5:30:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 
'cuz I'mcovered by graceK.You 
  offer a biblical arugment, the same argument, Paul had to deal with in Romans 
  6:1 which tells me that Lance is on the right track. John the 
  Logical

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Hmm...why then, Terry, does God repeatedly say it was for the "foreigner" 
among them as well?

You 
mention feasts, sacrifices, tithing, and Sabbath. Does this mean we no longer 
need to tithe or keep the Sabbath? What about the feasts? God says this is a 
forever commandment regarding Passover, throughout all your generations and that 
it is for the stranger as well. How come for Sukkot, it was done then, but it 
isn't done now, but it will be done again in the Kingdom? Do we get a break from 
these wonderful Feasts and times of joy and fellowship? If we're to do what 
Jesus did, how come He celebrated these Feasts and we don't have to? How come 
Paul continued celebrating the Feasts and the Sabbath?

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry 
  CliftonSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 15.57To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  CommandsSlade Henson wrote: 
  

Go 
back and read that, Judy. Jesus says TWO commandsLove GOD with all your 
heart, soul, and mind and Love your neighbor as 
yourself.
Now, go check out the 613. Every single one of them have to do with 
either loving God or loving your neighbor. 
So...can we choose how to love God on our own, or do we choose how to 
love Him by the way He says to?

Kay===Sorry 
  Kay, but I am afraid that you are missing something very important. The 
  original laws were for the children of Israel (lev.27:34).The two 
  commands are for followers of Christ, no matter what their linage (Whosoever 
  will ) Surely that should convince you that there have to be 
  differences. God did not doctor up the old covenant. He made a new 
  one.The original commands contained stuff about feasts and sacrifices 
  and tithing and keeping the Sabbath. The new commands do not.The 
  original commands made it a sin to murder or commit adultery.The new 
  commands make it a sin to even entertain such thoughts in your 
  mind.The new has replaced the old, but nothing has been lost except 
  that that is no longer necessary, and nothing has been added, except that 
  which is necessary to show the mind of Christ. For example, Christ was 
  our sacrifice, so those who trust Him no longer need bring sheep to a 
  Priest. That is over. Deleted. Added was the intent 
  of the heart . God always looks at the heart, so it naturally follows 
  that desiring to murder some one of His creations is just as evil as doing the 
  deed. That is clarified in the new law.According to the 
  Bible, no one could ever keep the old law, so I would think you would rejoice 
  at it's demise instead of clinging to it as if it still had some value. 
  Everything you need to please the Lord is still there in the two that Jesus 
  gave us .I tried to get Suzy to think about that, but she responded so 
  fast that it is obvious she did not dwell on it much. I hope you will 
  mull it over a little longer.Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

To add to David's post...
Lev. 19 begins with Be Holy, because I AM Holy. Then it tells you how to BE
holy. It goes through chapter 20 and ends withBe Holy, because I AM
holy.
Interesting.

Kay

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 18.09
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


Judy,

I think a lot of problems of understanding happen when we do not define our
terms in mutually agreeable ways.  For example, I understand Levitical law
to be more than just ceremonial law.  You seem to see it differently.  You
wrote:

Judy wrote:
 The Levitical or Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but
 God's moral standard or moral law still stands and this is
 what we are judged by in the Last Day.

I consider the following part of the Levitical law:

Leviticus 19:17-18
(17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise
rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
(18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy
people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

These commandments are moral, aren't they?

The biggest problem I have about this idea of differentiating moral law
from ceremonial law is the fourth commandment, keep the seventh day
sabbath.  Is this law ceremonial or moral?  Maybe you can answer this
first.  I'm out of time right now anyway.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Keep 
reading, Judy...Hebrews 10:28
Someone who disregards the Torah of Moses is put to death without mercy 
on the word of two or three witnesses.

The 
new was made fuller. For instanceDon't commit adultery. (old) If you even 
lust (think about it) you have committed it in your heart. (new). Don't murder. 
(old) If you hate, you've done it. (new)
The 
Old wasn't carnal...it taught man what was carnal about him so he could change 
it. Man remains carnal today. You are confusing the meaning of legalism with 
obedience and what God says is how a holy people are to live and be a light to 
others.

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2004 04.26To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:30:51 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
The below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We don't 
need God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We 
certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our 
own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do 
it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't you 
agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not do as He says to do in His 
commands?? Kay

Why would 
God,restore the old carnal regulations and practices when something 
far better, with transcendent promises, has arrived? God has made 
everything new! The new order eclipses the old regulations and 
practices, which were only shadows of the good things to come 
(Heb. 10:1). 
 To put it another way, why would God return 
to the Old after having created the New? This would be regression, 
not progression. Or, why would God retreat by reinstating the 
carnal when He has resurrected the spiritual? Why would any believer 
want to surrender his spiritual status in this new age and return to the 
carnal, external, and legalistic arrangement under Moses? Well, 
why?

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Judy...
That 
was NOT the problem. I think it's been said repeatedly. The four "rules" given 
were what they HAD to do in order to be granted entry into synagogues. Moses 
being read in the synagogues was very important, Judy. Moses was being and 
taught in the synagogues (same as today) and slowly, the people would HEAR 
(shema) and LISTEN, and OBEY. They were babes and couldn't handle a ton of rules 
on conduct and holiness before God. They needed to be spoon-fed slowly. Same as 
people today. Not much has changed.

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2004 07.02To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:19:42 -0500 "Jeff Powers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  John, start with Acts 15. Realizing that Gentiles coming 
  into the faith presented a problem for fellowship with Jewish believers, the 
  council established the BARE MINIMUM of requirements in order that Gentiles 
  could fellowship with Jews. Then verse 21 tells us that in time these 
  gentiles would learn Torah. This evening I'll try to expandon this. I 
  don't have time this morning. Jeff
  
  jt: Don't think so Jeff, the problem was 
  the Judaisers who followed Paul and Barnabus constantly spying out their 
  liberty in Christ and who wanted to put theGentile believers under the 
  law of Moses by circumcizing them. I know you don't see this as a 
  problem but the Council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 did and so did Paul when he 
  wrote the book of Galatians. Moses being read in Synagogues every week 
  means just that. It does not mean that Gentiles were required to 
  memorize all of theTorah.Anywaythe minds of the Jewish 
  people outside of Christ are hardened with a veil that is only removed in Him 
  so that they have no understanding. (2 Cor 3:14)
  

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  In a message dated 
  11/15/2004 5:09:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:And there is no difference between God's commandments and 
  Jesus' commandments.1) Does not your view of the 
  commandments include holy days, and imperatives that 
  involve all of the Mosaical Law with the exception of the 
  sacrifical laws? 2) Since I am a Gentile -- where in 
  scripture is Mosaical Law bound upon me in Jesus?3) Am I 
  nonetheless a brother in Christ ?John

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-16 Thread Terry Clifton





Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
  
  Hmm...why then, Terry, does God repeatedly say
it was for the "foreigner" among them as well?
  
  You mention feasts, sacrifices, tithing, and
Sabbath. Does this mean we no longer need to tithe or keep the Sabbath?
What about the feasts? God says this is a forever commandment regarding
Passover, throughout all your generations and that it is for the
stranger as well. How come for Sukkot, it was done then, but it isn't
done now, but it will be done again in the Kingdom? Do we get a break
from these wonderful Feasts and times of joy and fellowship? If we're
to do what Jesus did, how come He celebrated these Feasts and we don't
have to? How come Paul continued celebrating the Feasts and the Sabbath?
  
  Kay

Mornin' Kay. Strange as it seems, forever does not always mean
forever. If you buy a house and sign a contract with a thirty year
mortgage, and make payments every month for thirty years, the house is
yours, If you only make payments for six months, you will be evicted.
The thirty year contract now means nothing, since you have broken the
contract. 
Same with a covenant. Good forever, or until broken.

Since I am not a Jew, and since Leviticus says the law was only for the
Jews, please tell me why I should be bound by your laws. Once you
figure that one out, please tell me why you should be stuck with
regulations that do not apply to me if God loves us both equally. 

Y'all need to do some serious questioning of your position. How to
tithe to a priesthood that no longer exists would be a good place to
start, because if you fail to tithe to the priests you break the whole
law. With the laws that Jesus gave us, that presents no problem.
Tithing is not required under the new covenant. We give with a
cheerful heart, not because it is compulsory.
It's all in the book. You can read it for yourself.

Just remember that no matter how confused you may get, we love you
anyway. :-)

Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-16 Thread Terry Clifton





Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
  
  Hmm...why then, Terry, does God repeatedly say
it was for the "foreigner" among them as well?
  
  You mention feasts, sacrifices, tithing, and
Sabbath. Does this mean we no longer need to tithe or keep the Sabbath?
What about the feasts? God says this is a forever commandment regarding
Passover, throughout all your generations and that it is for the
stranger as well. How come for Sukkot, it was done then, but it isn't
done now, but it will be done again in the Kingdom? Do we get a break
from these wonderful Feasts and times of joy and fellowship? If we're
to do what Jesus did, how come He celebrated these Feasts and we don't
have to? How come Paul continued celebrating the Feasts and the Sabbath?
  
  Kay

P.S. to Kay. Missed answering a
couple of your questions.

Near as I can figure, when a foriegner was among the Jews, he was
expected to do as they did.

Jesus kept the law because it was in effect until the moment He
said,"It is finished"!

Paul kept the law (at times), because , as he readily admitted, he was
trying to be all things to all people, that he might win some to Christ.

I cannot find sukkot in my Bible.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/15/2004 9:39:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Creation -- The Fall -- Law -- Failure to uphold the law -- Grace
enters in Jesus Christ


So  Creation and grace occur almost simaltaneously (from man's point of view0 - man is created with a view to maturity (thus the illusion of "fallen" nature) in Christ in preparation for the Next Life; the Law manifests man's inability to act apart from the communal presense of his God and Christ's incarnation joins our humanity (complete with its failures) with His divinty; His Indwelling through contrition and brokenness joins us to Him and gives us the completelness (success in living, power of will) in faith we seek while His sacrifice, the flow of the blood made continual because of His resurrection, cleanses us and protects us and completes us when we act without faith. Close?

John

PS -- We probably disagree on the "fall" but allowing my view on that circumstance, does the above approximate what you and Lance are trying to say?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




To slade and to those of like mind:What is a 
covenant? What is a contract? What is the difference? Iff a covenant is 
unilateral, can it be broken?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: November 16, 2004 07:52
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  Slade Henson wrote: 
  

Hmm...why then, Terry, does God repeatedly say it was for the 
"foreigner" among them as well?

You mention feasts, sacrifices, tithing, and Sabbath. Does this mean 
we no longer need to tithe or keep the Sabbath? What about the feasts? God 
says this is a forever commandment regarding Passover, throughout all your 
generations and that it is for the stranger as well. How come for Sukkot, it 
was done then, but it isn't done now, but it will be done again in the 
Kingdom? Do we get a break from these wonderful Feasts and times of joy and 
fellowship? If we're to do what Jesus did, how come He celebrated these 
Feasts and we don't have to? How come Paul continued celebrating the Feasts 
and the Sabbath?

KayMornin' Kay. Strange as it 
  seems, forever does not always mean forever. If you buy a house and sign 
  a contract with a thirty year mortgage, and make payments every month for 
  thirty years, the house is yours, If you only make payments for six 
  months, you will be evicted. The thirty year contract now means nothing, 
  since you have broken the contract. Same with a covenant. Good 
  forever, or until broken.Since I am not a Jew, and since Leviticus 
  says the law was only for the Jews, please tell me why I should be bound by 
  your laws. Once you figure that one out, please tell me why you should 
  be stuck with regulations that do not apply to me if God loves us both 
  equally. Y'all need to do some serious questioning of your 
  position. How to tithe to a priesthood that no longer exists would be a 
  good place to start, because if you fail to tithe to the priests you break the 
  whole law. With the laws that Jesus gave us, that presents no 
  problem. Tithing is not required under the new covenant. We give 
  with a cheerful heart, not because it is compulsory.It's all in the 
  book. You can read it for yourself.Just remember that no matter 
  how confused you may get, we love you anyway. 
:-)Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Judy wrote:
When I say Ceremonial Law I believe you know what I mean
David - The Levitical priesthood, the Temple with it's ritual and
sacrifices and all of the feasts which were a shadow of what was
to come.
The problem with defining ceremonial with that which is a shadow is that
such sometimes causes a person to ignore the law. If a certain aspect of
the law is a shadow, then we need to look hard and long at it. For example,
the law concerning Passover should help us understand Christ, since Christ
is the Passover lamb.

The seventh day Sabbath also is a shadow, just like Passover. Does that
mean that you consider the fourth commandment (of the Ten Commandments) to
be ceremonial? I really do not know how you would answer this. Your
response is reminiscent of the way that John and some others react to my
questions. I think my question is honest and sincere and deserves to be
answered.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.
p.s. Have you ever considered that marriage itself is a shadow of our
relationship to Christ? Nobody would argue that we should do away with
marriage just because it is a shadow of something to come.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-16 Thread ShieldsFamily









I did not write the post below. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004
8:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands





In a message dated 11/15/2004 9:39:40 PM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:




Creation -- The Fall -- Law --
Failure to uphold the law -- Grace
enters in Jesus Christ



So  Creation and grace occur almost simaltaneously
(from man's point of view0 - man is created with a view
to maturity (thus the illusion of fallen nature) in Christ in
preparation for the Next Life; the Law manifests man's inability to act
apart from the communal presense of his God and Christ's incarnation joins our
humanity (complete with its failures) with His divinty; His Indwelling
through contrition and brokenness joins us to Him and gives us the
completelness (success in living, power of will) in faith we seek while His
sacrifice, the flow of the blood made continual because of His resurrection,
cleanses us and protects us and completes us when we act without
faith. Close?

John

PS -- We probably disagree on the fall but allowing my
view on that circumstance, does the above approximate what you and Lance are
trying to say?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Lance wrote:
DAVID MILLER: This is what I'm meaning. SOMETIMES you
are a sophisticated version of Judy. One (this one) occasionally
'wishes' , not hopes, to say: Enough Already!
Aw, Lance.  I liked the exchange.  I think Slade made a good observation, 
that Judy's response had an elitist implication, the idea that Jews need to 
become Christians to be in Christ.  The truth is that Christians become 
Christians by being engrafted into a Jew.  This is an important difference 
in their premises.  It is part of the reason they read the Scriptures a 
little differently from each other.

Is it possible that you just don't like the hard work of discussing 
differences and studying out the truth?

(Please do not interpret this question as an insult or accusation.  I am 
just asking about the possibility.  You may be a much harder worker than me 
and certainly much more studious.  I'm just examining the possibilities and 
giving you the opportunity to dismiss one of them.  You don't like the 
exchange, but why?)

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

DM says of Sir Lancelot: 'you don't like the exchange' and why kind Sir L is
that? I OCCASIONALLY find you to be excessively pedantic.
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 16, 2004 11:55
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

 Lance wrote:
  DAVID MILLER: This is what I'm meaning. SOMETIMES you
  are a sophisticated version of Judy. One (this one) occasionally
  'wishes' , not hopes, to say: Enough Already!

 Aw, Lance.  I liked the exchange.  I think Slade made a good observation,
 that Judy's response had an elitist implication, the idea that Jews need
to
 become Christians to be in Christ.  The truth is that Christians become
 Christians by being engrafted into a Jew.  This is an important difference
 in their premises.  It is part of the reason they read the Scriptures a
 little differently from each other.

 Is it possible that you just don't like the hard work of discussing
 differences and studying out the truth?

 (Please do not interpret this question as an insult or accusation.  I am
 just asking about the possibility.  You may be a much harder worker than
me
 and certainly much more studious.  I'm just examining the possibilities
and
 giving you the opportunity to dismiss one of them.  You don't like the
 exchange, but why?)

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Judy, what do you think of the following passages which speak of the Jew 
FIRST?

Romans 1:16
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of 
God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also 
to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10
(9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the 
Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
(10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the 
Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Kay wrote:
I think it's been said repeatedly. The four rules given were what
they HAD to do in order to be granted entry into synagogues.
This is not true, Kay. Somebody has misled you on this point. Gentiles
already had access to the synagogues before they ever heard of Jesus Christ.
If you would like me to establish this point for you, I will. Just ask. I
am assuming that this was an oversight on your part, where you were perhaps
just repeating something that someone else told you.

Kay wrote:
Moses being read in the synagogues was very important, Judy.
Moses was being and taught in the synagogues (same as today)
and slowly, the people would HEAR (shema) and LISTEN,
and OBEY. They were babes and couldn't handle a ton of rules
on conduct and holiness before God. They needed to be
spoon-fed slowly. Same as people today. Not much has changed.
Wait a minute, Kay. I think you are missing the whole point of the Acts 15
council. Read carefully what Peter said at that council:

Acts 15:10
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Do you see it? ... which neither our fathers NOR WE were able to bear. I
simply cannot see how you can read into this the idea of spoon-feeding
being their concern. From my perspective, these are liberal Jews who came
to realize that the letter of the law is not where it is at. They embraced
Gentiles, unlike their conservative counterparts, realizing from prophecy
that God had chosen a different way of making a people unto him.
Furthermore, they realized that their own salvation was not through the law,
but through grace.

Acts 15:11
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall
be saved, even as they.

In regards to Acts 15:21 (For Moses of old time hath in every city them
that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.), this is
a way of saying that the churches need not duplicate the efforts of Judaism
in teaching Moses and the law. There were already plenty of synagogues (an
estimated 300 to 400 synagogues in Jerusalem alone at this time) where those
interested in the law can learn and study the law. Furthermore, if anyone
wanted to convert to Judaism and be observant, the structure already existed
for doing this. Please note that this comment was made in the council
meeting by James, but not included in the letters sent out. There was no
mention of how they needed to wait for maturity before they could handle the
law. There was no mention that they needed to be spoon-fed for awhile
because they were babes. The question was whether or not Gentile believers
needed to take up the law and be observant of the commandments of Moses in
order to be saved. The answer was no, the Gentiles did not need to observe
the commandments of Torah. This was a monumentally liberal perspective for
its time and we should not cheapen its import by surmising ideas of
spoon-feeding the Gentiles until they were mature enough to handle the tough
Torah laws! :-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


Not much time right now...will answer the rest later when I get a chance

How, then, David, do you rectify Matt. 11:30...My yoke is easy and my burden
is light?

K.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2004 12.24
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands



Wait a minute, Kay.  I think you are missing the whole point of the Acts 15
council.  Read carefully what Peter said at that council:

Acts 15:10
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Do you see it?  ... which neither our fathers NOR WE were able to bear.  I
simply cannot see how you can read into this the idea of spoon-feeding
being their concern.  From my perspective, these are liberal Jews who came
to realize that the letter of the law is not where it is at.  They embraced
Gentiles, unlike their conservative counterparts, realizing from prophecy
that God had chosen a different way of making a people unto him.
Furthermore, they realized that their own salvation was not through the law,
but through grace.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

That is correct. All of the laws either talk about
loving God or loving your neighbor. They teach us how
to both love God and love our neighbor.

Suzy

--- Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Susan Petersen wrote:
 
 Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to rank the
 greatest
 commandments. The top two are love the Lord your
 God
 and the other is like it Love your neighbor. Just
 because he gave those two a higher ranking than the
 other laws does not mean that the lesser ranking
 laws
 are no longer in effect. 
 
 ==
 Matthew 22: 40  On* these two* commandments hang
 *ALL* the law and the 
 prophets.
 Jesus
 




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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Kay wrote:
How, then, David, do you rectify Matt. 11:30...
My yoke is easy and my burden is light?
That's the point.  The yoke of Christ's covenant is not the same as the yoke 
of the covenant of the law.  Acts 15:10 speaks about an unbearable yoke. 
Define that unbearable yoke that they are talking about.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

God did not return to the old. He had a plan right
from the start. He knew man would fall. From the very
start he planned to give His Son. He still set up the
Law so that we would know how to love Him and love our
neighbor. Jesus came to make God's covenant with us
fuller (Matthew 5:17). He brought better understanding
of the Law. He fulfilled the Feast days (some we are
still waiting for Him to fulfill.) 

Matthew 5:18 states that the jot nor the tittle will
pass away until heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and
earth have not passed away. A new heaven and a new
earth are being created. We are preparing for the
wedding feast of the Lamb. Until that day comes we are
to follow the Law. Jesus clarified that we are to
follow the Law in love.

Suzy

--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:30:51 -0500 Slade Henson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The below would be the essence of what you're
 saying, Judy. We don't need
 God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the
 cross. We certainly
 aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead
 making up our own
 man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the
 way He told us to do
 it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better
 than His, wouldn't
 you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not
 do as He says to do
 in His commands?? Kay
 
 Why would God, restore the old carnal regulations
 and practices when
 something far better, with transcendent promises,
 has arrived?  God has
 made everything new!  The new order eclipses the old
 regulations and
 practices, which were only shadows of the good
 things to come  (Heb.
 10:1).
  To put it another way, why would God return to
 the Old after having
 created the New? This would be regression, not
 progression.  Or, why
 would God retreat by reinstating the carnal when He
 has resurrected the
 spiritual?  Why would any believer want to surrender
 his spiritual status
 in this new age and return to the carnal, external,
 and legalistic
 arrangement under Moses?  Well, why?   




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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

I am sorry, Judy, but I find your defenses very
confusing. First you say there is a new covenant that
we follow which gets rid of the old (this is my way of
saying it). Now you are saying that technically there
isn't a new commandment. Which one is it? 

There is ONE theme throughout the Bible. ONE. God is
One. His plan has been the same fromthe very
beginning.

Suzy

--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy,
 I think a lot of problems of understanding happen
 when we do not define
 our terms in mutually agreeable ways.  For example,
 I understand
 Levitical law to be more than just ceremonial law. 
 You seem to see it
 differently.  You 
 wrote:
 
 Judy wrote: The Levitical or Ceremonial law is what
 Christ fulfilled but
 God's moral standard or moral law still stands and
 this is what we are
 judged by in the Last Day.
 
 I consider the following part of the Levitical law:
 Leviticus 19:17-18
 (17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart:
 thou shalt in any
 wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon
 him.  (18) Thou shalt
 not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children
 of thy people, but
 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the
 LORD.  These
 commandments are moral, aren't they? The biggest
 problem I have about
 this idea of differentiating moral law from
 ceremonial law is the
 fourth commandment, keep the seventh day sabbath. 
 Is this law
 ceremonial or moral?  Maybe you can answer this
 first.  I'm out of
 time right now anyway.  Peace be with you. David
 Miller. 
 
 jt: When I say Ceremonial Law I believe you know
 what I mean David -
 The Levitical priesthood, the Temple with it's
 ritual and sacrifices and
 all of the feasts which were a shadow of what was to
 come. As for
 Commandments, if you want to be  technical about it
 - there is no new
 Commandment, they have all been there since the
 beginning and this
 includes love (see 1 John 3:11, 2 John 5, Lev 19:18)
 because God does not
 change and neither does His standard for
 righteousness and holiness. 
 judyt




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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Oops. Feat was a typo. It should read Feast.

Suzy
--- Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Slade Henson wrote:
 
  Hmm...why then, Terry, does God repeatedly say it
 was for the 
  foreigner among them as well?
   
  You mention feasts, sacrifices, tithing, and
 Sabbath. Does this mean 
  we no longer need to tithe or keep the Sabbath?
 What about the feasts? 
  God says this is a forever commandment regarding
 Passover, throughout 
  all your generations and that it is for the
 stranger as well. How come 
  for Sukkot, it was done then, but it isn't done
 now, but it will be 
  done again in the Kingdom? Do we get a break from
 these wonderful 
  Feasts and times of joy and fellowship? If we're
 to do what Jesus did, 
  how come He celebrated these Feasts and we don't
 have to? How come 
  Paul continued celebrating the Feasts and the
 Sabbath?
   
  Kay
 
 P.S. to Kay.  Missed answering a couple of your
 questions.
 
 Near as I can figure, when a foriegner was among the
 Jews, he was 
 expected to do as they did.
 
 Jesus kept the law because it was in effect until
 the moment He said,It 
 is finished!
 
 Paul kept the law (at times), because , as he
 readily admitted, he was 
 trying to be all things to all people, that he might
 win some to Christ.
 
 I cannot find sukkot in my Bible.
 Terry
 




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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Sukkot is also known as Feat of Tabernacles or Feast
of Booths.

Suzy

--- Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Slade Henson wrote:
 
  Hmm...why then, Terry, does God repeatedly say it
 was for the 
  foreigner among them as well?
   
  You mention feasts, sacrifices, tithing, and
 Sabbath. Does this mean 
  we no longer need to tithe or keep the Sabbath?
 What about the feasts? 
  God says this is a forever commandment regarding
 Passover, throughout 
  all your generations and that it is for the
 stranger as well. How come 
  for Sukkot, it was done then, but it isn't done
 now, but it will be 
  done again in the Kingdom? Do we get a break from
 these wonderful 
  Feasts and times of joy and fellowship? If we're
 to do what Jesus did, 
  how come He celebrated these Feasts and we don't
 have to? How come 
  Paul continued celebrating the Feasts and the
 Sabbath?
   
  Kay
 
 P.S. to Kay.  Missed answering a couple of your
 questions.
 
 Near as I can figure, when a foriegner was among the
 Jews, he was 
 expected to do as they did.
 
 Jesus kept the law because it was in effect until
 the moment He said,It 
 is finished!
 
 Paul kept the law (at times), because , as he
 readily admitted, he was 
 trying to be all things to all people, that he might
 win some to Christ.
 
 I cannot find sukkot in my Bible.
 Terry
 




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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


Some would say it is a feat to observe the Feast. Others would say it is a
joy and a blessing

Kay


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Susan Petersen
Sent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2004 14.24
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


Oops. Feat was a typo. It should read Feast.

Suzy
wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
he will be subscribed.

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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

My husband has a theory on the shadow of things to
come. He says that in order for there to be a shadow
there has to be a real object or person casting that
shadow. Jesus is the real person casting the shadow.
If we take away the shadow then we take away Jesus who
is casting that shadow.

Suzy

--- David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Judy wrote:
  When I say Ceremonial Law I believe you know
 what I mean
  David - The Levitical priesthood, the Temple with
 it's ritual and
  sacrifices and all of the feasts which were a
 shadow of what was
  to come.
 
 The problem with defining ceremonial with that
 which is a shadow is that 
 such sometimes causes a person to ignore the law. 
 If a certain aspect of 
 the law is a shadow, then we need to look hard and
 long at it.  For example, 
 the law concerning Passover should help us
 understand Christ, since Christ 
 is the Passover lamb.
 
 The seventh day Sabbath also is a shadow, just like
 Passover.  Does that 
 mean that you consider the fourth commandment (of
 the Ten Commandments) to 
 be ceremonial?  I really do not know how you would
 answer this.  Your 
 response is reminiscent of the way that John and
 some others react to my 
 questions.  I think my question is honest and
 sincere and deserves to be 
 answered.
 
 Peace be with you.
 David Miller.
 
 p.s.  Have you ever considered that marriage itself
 is a shadow of our 
 relationship to Christ?  Nobody would argue that we
 should do away with 
 marriage just because it is a shadow of something to
 come.
 
 
 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with
 salt, that you may know how you ought to answer
 every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
 http://www.InnGlory.org
 
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 send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you
 will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who
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 subscribed.
 




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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:46:28 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Sorry. What is clear to one is not clear to another. I see ONE HOUSE 
  and ONE servant (Moses) and ONE Son (Yeshua). God is the builder of the ONE 
  house.
  
  jt: Have 
  you read Hebrews 3:4, Hebrews 3:5 andHebrews 3:6Slade? Sure the 
  builder of ALL things is God but Vs.5 clearly speaks of Moses being faith in 
  "all his house" and Vs.6. speaks of Christ being faithful as a Son over His 
  house, whose house we are IF we keep all 613 Commands - right? 
  Wrong.
  
  
  PLUS I really wish you would LISTEN to what people say, Judy. NEVER 
  has ANYONE said "613 
  Commands plus Jesus" STOP accusing people of this.Your trump card 
  does not work in Tic-Tac-Toe!
  
  jt: You 
  don't put it exactly this way Slade but what else can you besaying if we 
  Gentiles must receive Christ -(to be accepted) - then go back and be 
  circumcisedpicking up all 613 Commands that were given to Moses on the 
  Mount?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:48:19 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:28:41 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:The indicatives of 
  Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a lookat the paragraph 
  just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

  jt: John maybe you could 
  enlighten me about this if you would because what I see just prior 
  
  to the decalogue in Exodus 
  is God warning Moses to set 
  bounds and keep the people away 
  from the mountain because if they 
  touched it they surely would not 
  live, they would be put to 
  death, stoned, or shot through; 
  (man or beast). And this 
  even after they had washed their 
  garments and consecrated 
  themselves. Where arethese indicatives of Grace 
  Lance
  refers 
  to?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Suzy, You have to keep in mind the confusion created when one choses to 
believe the replacement theory of theology. There I go again with mistakes, 
I meant replacement theology!  We have to deal with some of them here!! 
Almost as cornfusing as the Two house theory!  But ya just gotta love the 
circular logic that we are blessed with here also.
Jeff
Jeff
- Original Message - 
From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 14:07
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


I am sorry, Judy, but I find your defenses very
confusing. First you say there is a new covenant that
we follow which gets rid of the old (this is my way of
saying it). Now you are saying that technically there
isn't a new commandment. Which one is it?
There is ONE theme throughout the Bible. ONE. God is
One. His plan has been the same fromthe very
beginning.
Suzy
--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy,
I think a lot of problems of understanding happen
when we do not define
our terms in mutually agreeable ways.  For example,
I understand
Levitical law to be more than just ceremonial law.
You seem to see it
differently.  You
wrote:
Judy wrote: The Levitical or Ceremonial law is what
Christ fulfilled but
God's moral standard or moral law still stands and
this is what we are
judged by in the Last Day.
I consider the following part of the Levitical law:
Leviticus 19:17-18
(17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart:
thou shalt in any
wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon
him.  (18) Thou shalt
not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children
of thy people, but
thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the
LORD.  These
commandments are moral, aren't they? The biggest
problem I have about
this idea of differentiating moral law from
ceremonial law is the
fourth commandment, keep the seventh day sabbath.
Is this law
ceremonial or moral?  Maybe you can answer this
first.  I'm out of
time right now anyway.  Peace be with you. David
Miller.
jt: When I say Ceremonial Law I believe you know
what I mean David -
The Levitical priesthood, the Temple with it's
ritual and sacrifices and
all of the feasts which were a shadow of what was to
come. As for
Commandments, if you want to be  technical about it
- there is no new
Commandment, they have all been there since the
beginning and this
includes love (see 1 John 3:11, 2 John 5, Lev 19:18)
because God does not
change and neither does His standard for
righteousness and holiness.
judyt


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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Gee Suzy,
I have been down this road before on here! Try asking for an explanation of 
Acts 15:21!  You'll either laugh, cry, or want to throw your 'puter out the 
window!!  But then I love being abused (it helps to have skin like a rhino 
here!)
Jeff
- Original Message - 
From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 13:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

God did not return to the old. He had a plan right
from the start. He knew man would fall. From the very
start he planned to give His Son. He still set up the
Law so that we would know how to love Him and love our
neighbor. Jesus came to make God's covenant with us
fuller (Matthew 5:17). He brought better understanding
of the Law. He fulfilled the Feast days (some we are
still waiting for Him to fulfill.)
Matthew 5:18 states that the jot nor the tittle will
pass away until heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and
earth have not passed away. A new heaven and a new
earth are being created. We are preparing for the
wedding feast of the Lamb. Until that day comes we are
to follow the Law. Jesus clarified that we are to
follow the Law in love.
Suzy
--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:30:51 -0500 Slade Henson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The below would be the essence of what you're
saying, Judy. We don't need
God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the
cross. We certainly
aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead
making up our own
man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the
way He told us to do
it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better
than His, wouldn't
you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not
do as He says to do
in His commands?? Kay
Why would God, restore the old carnal regulations
and practices when
something far better, with transcendent promises,
has arrived?  God has
made everything new!  The new order eclipses the old
regulations and
practices, which were only shadows of the good
things to come  (Heb.
10:1).
 To put it another way, why would God return to
the Old after having
created the New? This would be regression, not
progression.  Or, why
would God retreat by reinstating the carnal when He
has resurrected the
spiritual?  Why would any believer want to surrender
his spiritual status
in this new age and return to the carnal, external,
and legalistic
arrangement under Moses?  Well, why?

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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Jeff in Red:

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jeff 
  Powers 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 
  5:19
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands

  John, start with Acts 15. Realizing that Gentiles 
  coming into the faith presented a problem for fellowship with Jewish 
  believers, the council established the BARE MINIMUM of requirements in order 
  that Gentiles could fellowship with Jews. Then verse 21 tells us that in 
  time these gentiles would learn Torah. This evening I'll try to expandon 
  this. I don't have time this morning.
  Jeff

- Original Message - 
From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 
21:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
Commands
In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:09:53 AM 
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
And there is no differencebetween God's commandments and 
  Jesus' commandments.
1) Does not your view of the commandments include holy 
days, and imperatives that involve all of the Mosaical Law with the 
exception of the sacrifical laws? Yes John. But 
when we learn the commandments we see that many do not apply to each one of 
us. Of those that do apply we are to follow the example of Yeshua and obey 
them. I find it interresting that the reason mankind cannot keep Torah 
is the fact that we CHOOSE not to be obedient. Yes, I include myself in this 
statement. Is it possible to obey all of Torah, yes. 2) 
Since I am a Gentile -- where in scripture is Mosaical Law bound upon 
me in Jesus? I guess that depends on how you view 
Yeshua. Is He not the Lamb of God, the Passover Lamb? Thats what 1Cor. 5:7 
tells us. Or John 1:29 1:36. I realize this is a bitworn 
out (sort of), but WWJD?Look at the gospel accounts and tell me how 
many timethe Passover is mentioned and inwhat context? You will 
see that Yeshua and his Talmidim are observing Passover.Hmm, If 
Yeshua celebrates Passover shouldn't we? So let me throw these at you 
and ask that you explain to me what they mean to you: Exodus 12:19,12:48 
(remembering that the Jerusalem Council did away with this one.Though 
we may have to discuss this one in detal later, lets skip the bloodshed for 
now!), Exodus 12:49, 20:10, 23:12, 16:29, Leviticus 16:29, 17:8-15, 19:34, 
there are a lot more in Lev. but I think you can understand the point here. 
Numbers 9:14, 15:14, A real biggie in this context, Numbers 
15:15,"The community is to have the same rules for you and the 
alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to 
come. You and the alien shall be the same before YHVH. THE SAME LAWS AND 
REGULATIONS WILL APPLY BOTH TO YOU AND TO THE ALIEN LIVING AMONG 
YOU." If you really want I can go on and on, but as James said 
in the decision in Acts 15:21, "Moses is taught in the assemblies each 
Sabbath..." (My translation), the meaning of this verse is that Gentiles 
coming into the Kingdom of YHVH would learn the Torah in bite sized portions 
and begin to apply Torah as YHVH moved them. I believe we have made 
the point clear that you and I agree that the Father and the Son are one and 
the same so this shouldn't be too difficult. One point I almost 
forgot, depending on your translation, Gentile may be translated, stranger, 
alien, foreigner, gentile, etc. from the Hebrew.3) Am I 
nonetheless a brother in Christ ? Definitely Yes, I look 
forward to personally meeting you, if not in this time then in the world to 
come!!
JeffJohn

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




You 
have successfully failed to answer any of my questions.

#1 -- 
I asked HOW or WHAT ARE WE TO DO? Is this a moot question? Do you believe in 
nonaction? short accounts -- asking forgiveness? In your faith, how do we 
REPENT? We're to walk in the light? How? By carrying torches or flashlights? I'm 
asking you REAL QUESTIONS. Please answer with REAL ANSWERS.

#2 -- 
WHAT are the addresses (and I mean book, chapter, verse). Your definition of 
grace creates a nonaction... something we don't have to deal 
with.

-- 
slade

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Tuesday, 16 November, 2004 06.41To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:52:21 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
jt: since the cross we are capable 
of fulfilling the moral law through Him." "Unbelief will certainly 
keep us from fulfilling God's moral law 
"

Slade: What 
does this mean, Judy,in the sense of action on the part of redeemed 
humanity? Are we simply to "believe" and we do all that's necessary under 
the Moral Code?

jt: Slade 
The goal of the instruction is "love from a pure heart" and at the 
beginningwe have neither. Our problem is is one 
ofthe"heart"rather than with "activity" because we are by 
nature children of wrath and we do not want to come to the light so that our 
deeds can be made manifest. We find it easy to pray token prayers and 
to make a good religious show after the flesh making standards by 
whichwe judge other peoplebut God weighs the heart and/or 
motives.So walking after, or being led by God's Spirit means that we 
walk in the light as He (Jesus) is in the light. We keep short 
accounts with God and deal with sin as it is revealed to usby the 
indwelling Spirit. It is taking our thoughts captive to the obedience 
of Christ and renewingour minds by the washing of the water of the 
Word. All of this is paramount because faith works by love and without 
faith it is impossible to please Him. The opposite is an evil heart of 
unbelief.

jt: 
"Faith was necessary under the law 
also and grace must have been there; they were either blessed or cursed 
according to their choices in life" 

Are you able to prove Grace existed then? Please 
use addresses.-- slade

jt: My definition of grace is the power to do as we 
ought rather than something that covers sin so that we don't have to deal 
with it. Israel didn't have the indwelling Spirit (Promise)the 
way we do on this side of the cross but God made provision through the 
Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system which was His grace for that 
generation and when they were obedient from the heart they walked in 
Hisblessings - disobedience brought the curse as it does today. 
judyt



  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  Taylor
  On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:31:09 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes: Hi Judy, 
  
Thank you for your quick reply. I just want 
to make sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic 
alone. So often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to 
conclusions about what others think. OftenI am only creating 
a parody of what they actually believe. While it may lead to a few 
funny/angry posts it does tend to hinder dialogue rather than contribute 
to it.

jt: Whether or not we are in complete agreement when all 
is said and done Jonathan, I do appreciate your willingness to try 
andunderstand what I'm about and I thank you for 
that.

In your response you only referred to 
blessing/cursing in the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would 
it be safe for me to think that you include the blessing/cursing of 
Deuteronomy within the concept/category of moral law, and not in the 
category of Levitical law? 

jt: Yes.In Deuteronomy God refers to the diseases 
ofEgypt which were well before the Law of Moses was given at 
Sinai.

If this is true, would you be saying that while the 
Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ,moral law, which 
includes the concepts of blessing and cursing, still affects us 
today? 

jt: Yes. In Christ we have everythingnecessary to 
overcome and walk in God's blessing including a cleansed conscience 
which was not available underLevitical law. Though divine healing 
was there for them and it is for us as well as we

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

I

Jonathan wrote:



Creation -- The Fall -- Law -- Failure to uphold the law -- Grace
enters in Jesus Christ



So  Creation and grace occur almost simaltaneously (from man's point of view0 - man is created with a view to maturity (thus the illusion of "fallen" nature) in Christ in preparation for the Next Life; the Law manifests man's inability to act apart from the communal presense of his God and Christ's incarnation joins our humanity (complete with its failures) with His divinty; His Indwelling through contrition and brokenness joins us to Him and gives us the completelness (success in living, power of will) in faith we seek while His sacrifice, the flow of the blood made continual because of His resurrection, cleanses us and protects us and completes us when we act without faith. Close?

John

PS -- We probably disagree on the "fall" but allowing my view on that circumstance, does the above approximate what you and Lance are trying to say?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/16/2004 12:47:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:48:19 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:28:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a look
at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

 
jt: John maybe you could enlighten me about this if you would because what I see just prior 
to the decalogue in Exodus is God warning Moses to set bounds and keep the people away 
from the mountain because if they touched it they surely would not live, they would be put to 
death, stoned, or shot through; (man or beast). And this even after they had washed their 
garments and consecrated themselves. Where are these indicatives of Grace Lance
 refers to?




Hi Judy -- Lnace is the author of the above. 


John Boy

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/16/2004 4:00:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Jeff in Red:

- Original Message - 
From: Jeff Powers 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:19
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

John, start with Acts 15. Realizing that Gentiles coming into the faith presented a problem for fellowship with Jewish believers, the council established the BARE MINIMUM of requirements in order that Gentiles could fellowship with Jews. Then verse 21 tells us that in time these gentiles would learn Torah. This evening I'll try to expand on this. I don't have time this morning.
 Jeff

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 21:59
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:09:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

And there is no difference
between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

1) Does not your view of the commandments include holy days, and imperatives that involve all of the Mosaical Law with the exception of the sacrifical laws? Yes John. But when we learn the commandments we see that many do not apply to each one of us. Of those that do apply we are to follow the example of Yeshua and obey them. I find it interresting that the reason mankind cannot keep Torah is the fact that we CHOOSE not to be obedient. Yes, I include myself in this statement. Is it possible to obey all of Torah, yes. 

2) Since I am a Gentile -- where in scripture is Mosaical Law bound upon me in Jesus? I guess that depends on how you view Yeshua. Is He not the Lamb of God, the Passover Lamb? Thats what 1Cor. 5:7 tells us. Or John 1:29 1:36. I realize this is a bit worn out (sort of), but WWJD? Look at the gospel accounts and tell me how many time the Passover is mentioned and in what context? You will see that Yeshua and his Talmidim are observing Passover. Hmm, If Yeshua celebrates Passover shouldn't we? So let me throw these at you and ask that you explain to me what they mean to you: Exodus 12:19,12:48 (remembering that the Jerusalem Council did away with this one. Though we may have to discuss this one in detal later, lets skip the bloodshed for now!), Exodus 12:49, 20:10, 23:12, 16:29, Leviticus 16:29, 17:8-15, 19:34, there are a lot more in Lev. but I think you can understand the point here. Numbers 9:14, 15:14, A real biggie in this context, Numbers 15:15,"The community is to have the same rules for you and the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before YHVH. THE SAME LAWS AND REGULATIONS WILL APPLY BOTH TO YOU AND TO THE ALIEN LIVING AMONG YOU." If you really want I can go on and on, but as James said in the decision in Acts 15:21, "Moses is taught in the assemblies each Sabbath..." (My translation), the meaning of this verse is that Gentiles coming into the Kingdom of YHVH would learn the Torah in bite sized portions and begin to apply Torah as YHVH moved them. I believe we have made the point clear that you and I agree that the Father and the Son are one and the same so this shouldn't be too difficult. One point I almost forgot, depending on your translation, Gentile may be translated, stranger, alien, foreigner, gentile, etc. from the Hebrew.

3) Am I nonetheless a brother in Christ ? Definitely Yes, I look forward to personally meeting you, if not in this time then in the world to come!!
 Jeff

John 

Thanks, Jeff. And thanks fro taking the time. What part of the country is home?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-16 Thread Dave Hansen

David Miller wrote:
Aw, Lance.  I liked the exchange. 

DAVEH::-D   It does seem that way, DavidM.  Today I received well 
over a hundred TT posts.  Interestingly, a TTer who once suggested we 
limit our daily posts to 8, made nearly a quarter (28) of them 
today!  ;-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

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~~~
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands





jt: Both. All of God's Word isgood in balance and 
in context that is, when we allow scripture to say what the author intended. 
There are clearly two Covenants involved here and to 
insist that those who have been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law 
of Moses is putting them back into legalism and bondage.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  Judy, You have just 
  contradicted yourself. If you dont have any objection to any 
  commandment of the Bible because every word of God is good, then why do you 
  call it that kind of bondage? Either it is good OR it is 
  bondage. Which? Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  

jt: I 
don't have any objection to ANY commandment of the Bible because every Word 
of God is good. However, why put people back under that kind of bondage when 
we have been given liberty in Christ?

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Susan Petersen

Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will
follow my commandments. And there is no difference
between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

Suzy

--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 jt: Both. All of God's Word is good in balance and
 in context that is,
 when we allow scripture to say what the author
 intended. There are
 clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
 that those who have
 been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
 of Moses is putting
 them back into legalism and bondage.
 
 On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Judy, You have just contradicted yourself.  If you
 dont have any
 objection to any commandment of the Bible because
 every word of God is
 good, then why do you call it that kind of
 bondage?  Either it is good
 OR it is bondage.  Which? Izzy
  
 
 
 
  
 jt: I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of
 the Bible because
 every Word of God is good. However, why put people
 back under that kind
 of bondage when we have been given liberty in
 Christ? 
  


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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
covered by grace

K.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 08.25
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a look
at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.


From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 15, 2004 08:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


 Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
 legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
 earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
 the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will
 follow my commandments. And there is no difference
 between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

 Suzy

 --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
  jt: Both. All of God's Word is good in balance and
  in context that is,
  when we allow scripture to say what the author
  intended. There are
  clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
  that those who have
  been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
  of Moses is putting
  them back into legalism and bondage.
 
  On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself.  If you
  don't have any
  objection to any commandment of the Bible because
  every word of God is
  good, then why do you call it that kind of
  bondage?  Either it is good
  OR it is bondage.  Which? Izzy
 
 
 
 
 
  jt: I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of
  the Bible because
  every Word of God is good. However, why put people
  back under that kind
  of bondage when we have been given liberty in
  Christ?
 


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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Lance Muir

The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a look
at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 15, 2004 08:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

 Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
 legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
 earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
 the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will
 follow my commandments. And there is no difference
 between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

 Suzy

 --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  jt: Both. All of God's Word is good in balance and
  in context that is,
  when we allow scripture to say what the author
  intended. There are
  clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
  that those who have
  been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
  of Moses is putting
  them back into legalism and bondage.

  On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself.  If you
  don't have any
  objection to any commandment of the Bible because
  every word of God is
  good, then why do you call it that kind of
  bondage?  Either it is good
  OR it is bondage.  Which? Izzy

  jt: I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of
  the Bible because
  every Word of God is good. However, why put people
  back under that kind
  of bondage when we have been given liberty in
  Christ?

 __
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
 http://mail.yahoo.com
 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlo
ry.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands









Judy, I beg to disagree that it is both;
as good and bondage are mutually exclusive terms.
Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004
6:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands













jt: Both. All of God's Word isgood
in balance and in context that is, when we allow scripture to say what the
author intended. There are clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
that those who have been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law of
Moses is putting them back into legalism and bondage.











On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:





Judy, You have just contradicted
yourself. If you dont have any objection to any commandment
of the Bible because every word of God is good, then why do you call it
that kind of bondage? Either it is good OR it is
bondage. Which? Izzy

















jt: I don't
have any objection to ANY commandment of the Bible because every Word of God is
good. However, why put people back under that kind of bondage when we have been
given liberty in Christ?

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

That's right Kay.  Won't there be a lot of surprises on Judgment Day?  But,
Lord, Lord!!!...  Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:29 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
covered by grace

K.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 08.25
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a look
at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 15, 2004 08:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

 Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
 legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
 earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
 the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will
 follow my commandments. And there is no difference
 between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

 Suzy

 --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  jt: Both. All of God's Word is good in balance and
  in context that is,
  when we allow scripture to say what the author
  intended. There are
  clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
  that those who have
  been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
  of Moses is putting
  them back into legalism and bondage.

  On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself.  If you
  don't have any
  objection to any commandment of the Bible because
  every word of God is
  good, then why do you call it that kind of
  bondage?  Either it is good
  OR it is bondage.  Which? Izzy

  jt: I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of
  the Bible because
  every Word of God is good. However, why put people
  back under that kind
  of bondage when we have been given liberty in
  Christ?

 __
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
 http://mail.yahoo.com
 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlo
ry.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Lance Muir

ADDENDUM

We ourselves shall never be true to ourselves. Our human path is, as such, a
path from one disloyalty to another; and it is the same with the ways of the
gods of this world. They do not keep what they promise. So with them there
is never any real peace and clarity. In God alone is there faithfulness, and
faith is the trust that we may hold to Him, to His promise and to His
guidance. To hold to God is to rely on the fact that God is there for me,
and to live in this certainty. This is the promise God gives us; I am there
for you. But this promise at once means guidance too. I am not left to my
waywardness and my own ideas; but I have His commandment, to which I may
hold in everything, in my entire earthly existence. The Creed is always at
the same time the gospel, God's glad tidings to man, the message of
Immanuel, God with us, to us; and as such it is necessarily also the law.
Gospel and law are not to be separated; they are one, in such a way that the
gospel is the primary thing; that the glad tidings are first in the field
and, as such, include the law. Because God is for us, we may also be for
Him. Because He has given Himself to us we may also in gratitude give Him
the trifle which we have to give. To hold to God thus always means that we
receive everything wholly from God and so are wholly active for Him.

.
- Original Message - 
From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 15, 2004 09:06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


 Ahhh they difficulty of discerning the presence of humor on email?

 Please say this one more time in different words so that I may understand
 YOUR meaning.
 - Original Message - 
 From: Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: November 15, 2004 08:28
 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


  Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
  covered by grace
 
  K.
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir
  Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 08.25
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
 
 
  The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a
 look
  at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.
 
 
  From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: November 15, 2004 08:09
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
 
 
   Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
   legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
   earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
   the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will
   follow my commandments. And there is no difference
   between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.
  
   Suzy
  
   --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   
jt: Both. All of God's Word is good in balance and
in context that is,
when we allow scripture to say what the author
intended. There are
clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
that those who have
been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
of Moses is putting
them back into legalism and bondage.
   
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy, You have just contradicted yourself.  If you
don't have any
objection to any commandment of the Bible because
every word of God is
good, then why do you call it that kind of
bondage?  Either it is good
OR it is bondage.  Which? Izzy
   
   
   
   
   
jt: I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of
the Bible because
every Word of God is good. However, why put people
back under that kind
of bondage when we have been given liberty in
Christ?
   
  
  
   __
   Do You Yahoo!?
   Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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   --
   Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
may
  know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
 http://www.InnGlo
  ry.org
  
   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
  friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
  
 
 
  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
 know
  how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
  http://www.InnGlory.org
 
  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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 know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
 http://www.InnGlory.org
 
  If you do not want to receive posts

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Lance Muir

Iz:Your SAQ is showing.

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 15, 2004 09:40
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

 That's right Kay.  Won't there be a lot of surprises on Judgment Day?
But,
 Lord, Lord!!!...  Izzy

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:29 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

 Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
 covered by grace

 K.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir
 Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 08.25
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

 The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a
look
 at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

 From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: November 15, 2004 08:09
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

  Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
  legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
  earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
  the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will
  follow my commandments. And there is no difference
  between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

  Suzy

  --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   jt: Both. All of God's Word is good in balance and
   in context that is,
   when we allow scripture to say what the author
   intended. There are
   clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist
   that those who have
   been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
   of Moses is putting
   them back into legalism and bondage.

   On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 ShieldsFamily
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   Judy, You have just contradicted yourself.  If you
   don't have any
   objection to any commandment of the Bible because
   every word of God is
   good, then why do you call it that kind of
   bondage?  Either it is good
   OR it is bondage.  Which? Izzy

   jt: I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of
   the Bible because
   every Word of God is good. However, why put people
   back under that kind
   of bondage when we have been given liberty in
   Christ?

  __
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
  http://mail.yahoo.com
  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
 know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlo
 ry.org

  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
 friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
 how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
 http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
 friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
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 --
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 how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
 http://www.InnGlory.org

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 [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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 --
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http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Hughes Jonathan




Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement with you 
here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point to Christ as the 
fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus Jesus. >From past 
posts of yourswhich seemed to place primacy on the law and types I would 
have thought you would be more supportive of Suzy's position. It appears 
that I was wrong in thinking this of you. What I am now trying to 
understand is why you still think we are under the blessings and curses of 
Deuteronomy but not under the laws of Deuteronomy. Please understand that 
I am honestly attempting to understand you here, not to mock you. I have 
no follow-up post to slam you regardless of what your answer is. I am 
attempting to put together why from my perspective there seems to be a 
disconnect. Basically, why are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in 
Christ when the law was? Can we separate them out so that one still 
applies? Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ 
but that the blessings/curses have a different purpose and therefore are still 
in effect.

By the way I think that your'two covenants/houses' 
analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:54 AMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
From: Susan Petersen 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Adhering 
to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There is nothing 
we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow the Law out of 
love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my commandments. And there is no 
difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

jt: God's condition for salvation is the obedience that 
comes through faith andJesus did not give 613 Commands Suzy. The law was 
given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the sinfulness of sin and to lead us 
to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus Jesus. There are two housesor 
Covenantsdescribed in Hebrews 3:

"Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly 
calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest 
of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was 
in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, 
by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor 
than the house. For every house is built by someone, but the 
builder of all things is God. Now Moses was 
faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which 
were to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are IF we hold fast our 
confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end" 
Judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:54:41 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement with
you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point to Christ
as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus
Jesus.

jt: I don't know if we are saying the same thing
Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law which Israel did not or
could notkeep according to Stephen (Acts 7:43)

Jonathan: From past posts of yourswhich seemed to
place primacy on the law and types I would have thought you would be more
supportive of Suzy's position. It appears that I was wrong in thinking
this of you. What I am now trying to understand is why you still think
we are under the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws of
Deuteronomy.

jt: Jesus who overcame death and hell
by the 'eternal Spirit'introduced the Kingdom of God whichis the
Spirit of the Law rather than the letter of the law which kills (not
gnostic). God's nature, character and standards,
have not ever changed. What is different in this equation is the believer in
Christ who isborn anew by the Spirit of God, indwelled and instructed by
the sameSpirit, and is given a heart of flesh along with the desire
tolove and obey our Lord and Master. So ultimately it is God in Christ
who causes us to overcome.

Please understand that I am honestly attempting to
understand you here, not to mock you. I have no follow-up post to slam
you regardless of what your answer is. I am attempting to put together
why from my perspective there seems to be a disconnect. Basically, why
are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in Christ when the law was?

jt: The Levitical or
Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but God's moral standard or moral law
still stands and this is what we are judged by in the Last Day.
Jesusbecame a curse for us as per (Galatians 3:13). I don't have
a problem with loving and obeying God according to His Word. What I have a
problem with is putting oneself underthese 613 Commands because it
iswritten that "They which be of faith are blessed with faithful
Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for
it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are
written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the
law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the just shall live by faith and
the law is not of faith; but the man that doeth them shall live in them."
(Galatians 3:9-12)

Can we separate them out so that one still applies?
Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ but that the
blessings/curses have a different purpose and therefore are still in
effect.

jt: I personally love God's moral
law, commandments and statutes; actually Psalm 19:7-14 is probably my favorite
scripture or at least one of them; this andMatthew 6:33 are dear to
me. judyt

By the way I think that your'two covenants/houses'
analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Judy TaylorFrom: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]Adhering
to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There is
nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow the
Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my commandments. And
there is no difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.

jt: God's condition for salvation is the obedience
that comes through faith andJesus did not give 613 Commands Suzy. The
law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the sinfulness of sin and
to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus Jesus. There are two
housesor Covenantsdescribed in Hebrews 3:

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands









Really interesting question Jonathan!
Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hughes Jonathan
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004
9:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands





Hi Judy, for once I am actually in
agreement with you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you
point to Christ as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus
Jesus. From past posts of yourswhich seemed to place primacy on
the law and types I would have thought you would be more supportive of Suzy's
position. It appears that I was wrong in thinking this of you. What
I am now trying to understand is why you still think we are under the blessings
and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws of Deuteronomy. Please
understand that I am honestly attempting to understand you here, not to mock
you. I have no follow-up post to slam you regardless of what your answer
is. I am attempting to put together why from my perspective there seems
to be a disconnect. Basically, why are the blessings and curses not fulfilled
in Christ when the law was? Can we separate them out so that one still
applies? Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to Christ
but that the blessings/curses have a different purpose and therefore are still
in effect.



By the way I think that your'two
covenants/houses' analogy is quite good.

Jonathan
Hughes 







From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004
8:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands


From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There
is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow the
Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my commandments. And
there is no difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.









jt: God's condition for salvation is the
obedience that comes through faith andJesus did not give 613 Commands
Suzy. The law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the sinfulness of
sin and to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus Jesus. There are
two housesor Covenantsdescribed in Hebrews 3:











Therefore holy brethren, partakers
of a heavenly calling, consider
Jesus, the
Apostle and High Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed
Him, as Moses also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy
of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by
someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful in
all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be
spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm
until the end
Judyt

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

The
below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We don't need God's law
anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We certainly aren't fearing
God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our own man-made ways of
worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do it. We've figured out and
our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't you agree? Sounds like it to me,
otherwise, why not do as He says to do in His commands??

Kay

-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy
TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and live
however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.

jt: The above would be the musings of a deceived
soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
It is the power proceeding from the resurrection
which enables us to do as we ought.
Nevertheless I do understand that there is too
muchof the above going on and not
enough fear of God out there because we are living in
the end times when folk will not
endure 'sound doctrine'. judyt

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Lance MuirThe indicatives of Grace always preceed the
imperatives of Law. Take a lookat the paragraph just prior to the
decalogue in Exodus.

From: "Susan Petersen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and
bondage. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again
I say that we follow the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you
will follow my commandments. And there is no difference
between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.
Suzy --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: jt: Both. All of God's Word is good
in balance and in context that is, when we allow
scripture to say what the author intended. There are
clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist that those who
have been made free in Christ must also adhere to the Law
of Moses is putting them back into legalism and
bondage. On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600
"ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes: Judy, You have just contradicted yourself. If
you "don't have any objection to any commandment of
the Bible because every word of God is good," then
why do you call it "that kind of bondage"? Either it is
good OR it is bondage. Which? Izzy
jt: I don't have any
objection to ANY commandment of the Bible because
every Word of God is good. However, why put people back under
that kind of bondage when we have been given liberty in
Christ?
__ Do You
Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around http://mail.yahoo.com
-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians
4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and
you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join,
tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he
will be subscribed.

--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." (Colossians
4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and
you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join,
tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he
will be subscribed.

--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." (Colossians
4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org

--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell
him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he
will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:32:19 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
Interestingly enough, there was NO sacrifice for intentional sin during 
the Levitical priesthood. Kay

jt: How does 
this point about presumptuous sin apply to what we are discussing here 
Kay?

  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorOn Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:54:41 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement 
  with you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point 
  to Christ as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus 
  Jesus.
  
  jt: I don't know if we are saying the same thing 
  Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law which Israel did 
  not or could notkeep according to Stephen (Acts 
  7:43)
  
  Jonathan: From past posts of yourswhich seemed 
  to place primacy on the law and types I would have thought you would be 
  more supportive of Suzy's position. It appears that I was wrong in 
  thinking this of you. What I am now trying to understand is why you 
  still think we are under the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not 
  under the laws of Deuteronomy.
  
  jt: Jesus who overcame death and 
  hell by the 'eternal Spirit'introduced the Kingdom of God 
  whichis the Spirit of the Law rather than the letter of the law 
  which kills (not gnostic). God's nature, 
  character and standards, have not ever changed. What is different in this 
  equation is the believer in Christ who isborn anew by the Spirit of 
  God, indwelled and instructed by the sameSpirit, and is given a 
  heart of flesh along with the desire tolove and obey our Lord and 
  Master. So ultimately it is God in Christ who causes us to 
  overcome.
  
  Please understand that I am honestly attempting to 
  understand you here, not to mock you. I have no follow-up post to 
  slam you regardless of what your answer is. I am attempting to put 
  together why from my perspective there seems to be a disconnect. 
  Basically, why are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in Christ when 
  the law was? 
  
  jt: The Levitical or 
  Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but God's moral standard or moral 
  law still stands and this is what we are judged by in the Last Day. 
  Jesusbecame a curse for us as per (Galatians 3:13). I don't 
  have a problem with loving and obeying God according to His Word. What I 
  have a problem with is putting oneself underthese 613 Commands 
  because it iswritten that "They which be of faith are blessed with 
  faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the 
  curse; for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all 
  things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no 
  man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the 
  just shall live by faith and the law is not of faith; but the man that 
  doeth them shall live in them." (Galatians 
  3:9-12)
  
  Can we separate them out so that one still 
  applies? Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to 
  Christ but that the blessings/curses have a different purpose and 
  therefore are still in effect.
  
  jt: I personally love God's moral 
  law, commandments and statutes; actually Psalm 19:7-14 is probably my 
  favorite scripture or at least one of them; this andMatthew 6:33 are 
  dear to me. 
  judyt
  
  By the way I think that your'two 
  covenants/houses' analogy is quite good.
  Jonathan Hughes 
  
  

  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorFrom: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]Adhering 
  to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There is 
  nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow 
  the Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my 
  commandments. And there is no difference between God's commandments and 
  Jesus' commandments.
  
  jt: God's condition for salvation is the 
  obedience that comes through faith andJesus did not give 613 
  Commands Suzy. The law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the 
  sinfulness of sin and to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus 
  Jesus. There are two housesor Covenantsdescribed in 
  Hebrews 3:
  
  "Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly 
  calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High 
  Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as 
  Moses also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of 
  more glory than Moses, by just so much as

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Maybe 
Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as He walked in 
Israel.

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes 
  JonathanSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 14.37To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  Hi Kay,
  
  I would suggest that Judy is not saying/thinking what you 
  wrote below. I perceive Judy as a person who is very much concerned with 
  matters of obedience and fearing God. The disconnect may be in what/who 
  one obeys. I think that you may place primacy on obedience to levitical 
  law while Judy would place primacy on obedience to the moral law illustrated 
  in Jesus Christ. Also, I think that Judy and you would disagree as to 
  what commandments Jesus was speaking of when He says to do His 
  commands.
  Jonathan Hughes
  
  

  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  The 
  below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We don't need God's 
  law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We certainly aren't 
  fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our own man-made ways of 
  worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do it. We've figured out 
  and our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't you agree? Sounds like it to 
  me, otherwise, why not do as He says to do in His 
  commands??
  
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 
Commands

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and live 
however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.

jt: The above would be the musings of a deceived 
soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
It is the power proceeding from the resurrection 
which enables us to do as we ought. 
Nevertheless I do understand that there is too 
muchof the above going on and not
enough fear of God out there because we are living 
in the end times when folk will not
endure 'sound doctrine'. judyt


[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On 
Behalf Of Lance MuirThe indicatives of Grace always preceed the 
imperatives of Law. Take a lookat the paragraph just prior to the 
decalogue in Exodus.


From: "Susan Petersen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and 
bondage. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once 
again I say that we follow the Law out of love for Jesus. If you 
love Me you will follow my commandments. And there is no 
difference between God's commandments and Jesus' 
commandments. Suzy --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:   jt: Both. All of God's Word is good 
in balance and  in context that is,  when we allow 
scripture to say what the author  intended. There are 
 clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist  that 
those who have  been made free in Christ must also adhere to the 
Law  of Moses is putting  them back into legalism 
and bondage.   On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 
"ShieldsFamily"  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself. If 
you  "don't have any  objection to any commandment 
of the Bible because  every word of God is  good," 
then why do you call it "that kind of  bondage"? Either it 
is good  OR it is bondage. Which? Izzy 
  jt: I 
don't have any objection to ANY commandment of  the Bible 
because  every Word of God is good. However, why put 
people  back under that kind  of bondage when we 
have been given liberty in  Christ? 
 
__ Do You 
Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam 
protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 
-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with 
salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If 
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
he will be subscribed.


--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with 
salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email 
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to 
join

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread LaurHamm





In a message dated 11/15/2004 1:50:42 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as He 
  walked in Israel.
  
  Kay

Yeah wonder if it was NIV, KJV or maybe the 
Message? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
Maybe 
Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as He walked in 
Israel.Kay

jt: What's 
that supposed to mean Kayand why would Jesus need a copy of anything in 
his 'back pocket' if he had one?
After all he 
was walking in the fullness of the Spirit wasn't he? Why have you taken 
the seat of the scornful?

  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes 
JonathanHi Kay,
I would suggest that Judy is not saying/thinking what 
you wrote below. I perceive Judy as a person who is very much 
concerned with matters of obedience and fearing God. The disconnect 
may be in what/who one obeys. I think that you may place primacy on 
obedience to levitical law while Judy would place primacy on obedience to 
the moral law illustrated in Jesus Christ. Also, I think that Judy and 
you would disagree as to what commandments Jesus was speaking of when He 
says to do His commands.
Jonathan Hughes




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade 
HensonSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
    Commands

The below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We don't 
need God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We 
certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our 
own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do 
it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't you 
agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not do as He says to do in His 
commands??

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and live 
  however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.
  
  jt: The above would be the musings of a deceived 
  soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
  It is the power proceeding from the resurrection 
  which enables us to do as we ought. 
  Nevertheless I do understand that there is too 
  muchof the above going on and not
  enough fear of God out there because we are 
  living in the end times when folk will not
  endure 'sound doctrine'. judyt
  
  
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On 
  Behalf Of Lance MuirThe indicatives of Grace always preceed the 
  imperatives of Law. Take a lookat the paragraph just prior to the 
  decalogue in Exodus.
  
  
  From: "Susan Petersen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and 
  bondage. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once 
  again I say that we follow the Law out of love for Jesus. If you 
  love Me you will follow my commandments. And there is no 
  difference between God's commandments and Jesus' 
  commandments. Suzy --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:   jt: Both. All of God's Word is 
  good in balance and  in context that is,  when we 
  allow scripture to say what the author  intended. There 
  are  clearly two Covenants involved here and to insist 
   that those who have  been made free in Christ must also 
  adhere to the Law  of Moses is putting  them back 
  into legalism and bondage.   On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 
  09:59:53 -0600 "ShieldsFamily"  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself. If 
  you  "don't have any  objection to any commandment 
  of the Bible because  every word of God is  good," 
  then why do you call it "that kind of  bondage"? Either 
  it is good  OR it is bondage. Which? Izzy 
jt: 
  I don't have any objection to ANY commandment of  the Bible 
  because  every Word of God is good. However, why put 
  people  back under that kind  of bondage when we 
  have been given liberty in  Christ? 
   
  __ Do You 
  Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam 
  protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 
  -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with 
  salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." 
  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org 
  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




What 
do you think Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Peter,and all of the disciples taught 
from, Judy? What commandments IS Jesus speaking of when He says...If you love 
Me, you will obey My commands?

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 15.04To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as He 
  walked in Israel.Kay
  
  jt: What's 
  that supposed to mean Kayand why would Jesus need a copy of anything in 
  his 'back pocket' if he had one?
  After all 
  he was walking in the fullness of the Spirit wasn't he? Why have you 
  taken the seat of the scornful?
  

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes 
  JonathanHi Kay,
  I would suggest that Judy is not saying/thinking what 
  you wrote below. I perceive Judy as a person who is very much 
  concerned with matters of obedience and fearing God. The disconnect 
  may be in what/who one obeys. I think that you may place primacy on 
  obedience to levitical law while Judy would place primacy on obedience to 
  the moral law illustrated in Jesus Christ. Also, I think that Judy 
  and you would disagree as to what commandments Jesus was speaking of when 
  He says to do His commands.
  Jonathan Hughes
  
  

  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  The below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We 
  don't need God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We 
  certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our 
  own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do 
  it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't 
  you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not do as He says to do in 
  His commands??
  
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 
Commands

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and live 
however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.

jt: The above would be the musings of a 
deceived soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
It is the power proceeding from the 
resurrection which enables us to do as we ought. 
Nevertheless I do understand that there is too 
muchof the above going on and not
enough fear of God out there because we are 
living in the end times when folk will not
endure 'sound doctrine'. 
judyt


[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On 
Behalf Of Lance MuirThe indicatives of Grace always preceed the 
imperatives of Law. Take a lookat the paragraph just prior to the 
decalogue in Exodus.


From: "Susan Petersen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and 
bondage. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once 
again I say that we follow the Law out of love for Jesus. If you 
love Me you will follow my commandments. And there is no 
difference between God's commandments and Jesus' 
commandments. Suzy --- Judy Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:   jt: Both. All of God's Word is 
good in balance and  in context that is,  when 
we allow scripture to say what the author  intended. There 
are  clearly two Covenants involved here and to 
insist  that those who have  been made free in 
Christ must also adhere to the Law  of Moses is 
putting  them back into legalism and bondage. 
  On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 
"ShieldsFamily"  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself. If 
you  "don't have any  objection to any 
commandment of the Bible because  every word of God 
is  good," then why do you call it "that kind of 
 bondage"? Either it is good  OR it is 
bondage. Which? Izzy   
jt: I don't have any 
objection to ANY commandment of  the Bible because 
 every Word of God is good. However, why put people  
back under that kind  of bondage w

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Maybe Stern's Jewish New 
Testament

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 
  14.54To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
  
  In a message dated 11/15/2004 1:50:42 PM Central Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Maybe 
Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as He walked in 
Israel.

Kay
  
  Yeah wonder if it was NIV, KJV or maybe the 
  Message? Laura

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




By the 
way...I didn't take a seat of the scornful. Laura got it, but I guessed you 
missed it. It was a funny, Judy

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 15.04To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as He 
  walked in Israel.Kay
  
  jt: What's 
  that supposed to mean Kayand why would Jesus need a copy of anything in 
  his 'back pocket' if he had one?
  After all 
  he was walking in the fullness of the Spirit wasn't he? Why have you 
  taken the seat of the scornful?
  

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes 
  JonathanHi Kay,
  I would suggest that Judy is not saying/thinking what 
  you wrote below. I perceive Judy as a person who is very much 
  concerned with matters of obedience and fearing God. The disconnect 
  may be in what/who one obeys. I think that you may place primacy on 
  obedience to levitical law while Judy would place primacy on obedience to 
  the moral law illustrated in Jesus Christ. Also, I think that Judy 
  and you would disagree as to what commandments Jesus was speaking of when 
  He says to do His commands.
  Jonathan Hughes
  
  

  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  The below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We 
  don't need God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. We 
  certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making up our 
  own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way He told us to do 
  it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better than His, wouldn't 
  you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not do as He says to do in 
  His commands??
  
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 
Commands

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and live 
however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.

jt: The above would be the musings of a 
deceived soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
It is the power proceeding from the 
resurrection which enables us to do as we ought. 
Nevertheless I do understand that there is too 
muchof the above going on and not
enough fear of God out there because we are 
living in the end times when folk will not
endure 'sound doctrine'. 
judyt


[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On 
Behalf Of Lance MuirThe indicatives of Grace always preceed the 
imperatives of Law. Take a lookat the paragraph just prior to the 
decalogue in Exodus.


From: "Susan Petersen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and 
bondage. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once 
again I say that we follow the Law out of love for Jesus. If you 
love Me you will follow my commandments. And there is no 
difference between God's commandments and Jesus' 
commandments. Suzy --- Judy Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:   jt: Both. All of God's Word is 
good in balance and  in context that is,  when 
we allow scripture to say what the author  intended. There 
are  clearly two Covenants involved here and to 
insist  that those who have  been made free in 
Christ must also adhere to the Law  of Moses is 
putting  them back into legalism and bondage. 
  On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:59:53 -0600 
"ShieldsFamily"  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:  Judy, You have just contradicted yourself. If 
you  "don't have any  objection to any 
commandment of the Bible because  every word of God 
is  good," then why do you call it "that kind of 
 bondage"? Either it is good  OR it is 
bondage. Which? Izzy   
jt: I don't have any 
objection to ANY commandment of  the Bible because 
 every Word of God is good. However, why put people  
back under that kind  of bondage when we have been given 
liberty in  Christ?  
__

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Go 
back and read that, Judy. Jesus says TWO commandsLove GOD with all your 
heart, soul, and mind and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Now, 
go check out the 613. Every single one of them have to do with either loving God 
or loving your neighbor. 
So...can we choose how to love God on our own, or do we choose how to 
love Him by the way He says to?

Kay



  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 15.41To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:12:37 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  What 
  do you think Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Peter,and all of the disciples taught 
  from, Judy? What commandments 
  IS 
  Jesus speaking of when He says...If you love Me, you will obey My 
  commands? Kay
  
  jt: I don't 
  believe they spent time preparing a three point sermons Kay, nor do I believe 
  they sat at the feet of the local Rabbi. In fact the fishermen were noted to 
  be 'unlearned' men. Since Paul was a pharisee he 
  studied under Gamiliel (I think it was) at somepoint but all of that was 
  useless to him without the revelation of the mystery he received from Christ 
  during his time in the desert (Galatians 3:3) 
  Paul said that flesh and blood didn't teach him his gospel, he received it by 
  revelation and later on the leaders at Jerusalem validated it. As for 
  Peter, he was the first to receive this revelation from heaven about the 
  Christ - Jesus said "Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood did not 
  reveal this to you but my Father which is in heaven"
  
  As for your 
  last question. I've listed His commands on TT already - there are NOT 
  613 of them either See John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17, We are told 
  more than once that the whole law and the prophets are fulfilled in one word 
  in the statement "You shall love your neighbor as 
  yourself" (Galatians 5:14). What can you add to make it better or more 
  perfect? Judyt
  
  

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorOn Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as 
  He walked in Israel.Kay
  
  jt: 
  What's that supposed to mean Kayand why would Jesus need a copy of 
  anything in his 'back pocket' if he had one? After all he was 
  walking in the fullness of the Spirit wasn't he? Why have you taken 
  the seat of the scornful?
  

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes 
  JonathanHi Kay,
  I would suggest that Judy is not 
  saying/thinking what you wrote below. I perceive Judy as a 
  person who is very much concerned with matters of obedience and 
  fearing God. The disconnect may be in what/who one obeys. 
  I think that you may place primacy on obedience to levitical law while 
  Judy would place primacy on obedience to the moral law illustrated in 
  Jesus Christ. Also, I think that Judy and you would disagree as 
  to what commandments Jesus was speaking of when He says to do His 
  commands.
  Jonathan Hughes
  
  

  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  The below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We 
  don't need God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. 
  We certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making 
  up our own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way He 
  told us to do it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better 
  than His, wouldn't you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not 
  do as He says to do in His commands??
  
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 
Commands

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and 
live however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.

jt: The above would be the musings of a 
deceived soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
It is the power proceeding from the 
resurrection which enables us to do as we ought.

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Hughes Jonathan

Allow me to try to draw this out a bit further here. A picture would say
it better but my drawing skills are quite suspect.

Creation -- The Fall -- Law -- Failure to uphold the law -- Grace
enters in Jesus Christ

The usual method of thinking about this is to follow the word picture
above.  Creation occurs, and the Fall takes place.  The law is given in
order to help humankind climb back to God.  Humankind fails at upholding
the law so God sends plan B: Jesus Christ.  Grace enters the world in
the Person of Jesus Christ.  Now we identify with Christ instead of the
law.  Retroactively grace is now extended back to those who followed the
law, and even back to Adam himself.  A mutually exclusive split is
created between the law and grace.

Lance is attempting to communicate something radically different.  He is
stating that grace is always present before law.  
Lance's/My version would be more like the following:  Grace is not an
aspect of who God is, not something to be squeezed out upon us but
rather God Himself.  Grace is present in who God is.  The Fall does not
change God into having to deliver a new way for us to relate to Him.  It
was always through grace.  Grace is given to enable Israel prior to the
giving of the law.  This is why Lance mentions the paragraph prior to
the decalogue in Exodus.  It is God telling Israel who He is.  It can
all be wrapped up in a single word: grace.  Recognizing humankind's
failure God continues to be gracious by sending us His Son.  It is a
circular way of viewing things instead of the linear concept above.  It
is also a wholesome concept in the sense that it is not attempting to
drive a wedge between law and grace.  Rather, they are intertwined with
grace coming first.

Note Lance's other post today which was a quote from Karl Barth's
'Dogmatics in Outline', a small gem of a book.  Take another read of
this portion:

Gospel and law are not to be separated; they are one, in such a way
that the gospel is the primary thing; that the glad tidings are first in
the field and, as such, include the law. Because God is for us, we may
also be for Him. Because He has given Himself to us we may also in
gratitude give Him the trifle which we have to give. To hold to God thus
always means that we receive everything wholly from God and so are
wholly active for Him.

Does this help explain what Lance is talking about?  I hope one can see
that there was no mention of being covered by grace or a criticism of
the law itself.  There was also no license given to live as we want.


Jonathan Hughes



Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
covered by grace

K.




The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a
look at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

Lance

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:31:09 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes: Hi 
Judy, 

  Thank you for your quick reply. I just want to make 
  sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic alone. 
  So often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to conclusions about what others 
  think. OftenI am only creating a parody of what they actually 
  believe. While it may lead to a few funny/angry posts it does tend to 
  hinder dialogue rather than contribute to it.
  
  jt: Whether or not we are in complete agreement when all is said 
  and done Jonathan, I do appreciate your willingness to try andunderstand 
  what I'm about and I thank you for that.
  
  In your response you only referred to blessing/cursing in 
  the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would it be safe for me to think 
  that you include the blessing/cursing of Deuteronomy within the 
  concept/category of moral law, and not in the category of Levitical law? 
  
  
  jt: Yes.In Deuteronomy God refers to the diseases 
  ofEgypt which were well before the Law of Moses was given at 
  Sinai.
  
  If this is true, would you be saying that while the 
  Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ,moral law, which 
  includes the concepts of blessing and cursing, still affects us today? 
  
  
  jt: Yes. In Christ we have everythingnecessary to overcome 
  and walk in God's blessing including a cleansed conscience which was not 
  available underLevitical law. Though divine healing was there for them 
  and it is for us as well as we walk in repentance and learn to 
  love.
  
  A few other questions that would help me clarify your 
  position:
  
  1) Would itbe true that while only Christ 
  could fulfill the Levitical Law, all of us are capable of fulfilling the moral 
  law? 
  
  jt: Yes. Only He was 
  without spot or blemish, not having any inheritance in the first Adam - and 
  since the cross we are capable of fulfilling the moral law through 
  Him.
  
  2) Does the same 'thing' that kept Israel from 
  fulfilling the Levitical law also keep us from fulfilling God's moral 
  law?
  
  jt: Unbelief will certainly keep us from fulfilling God's moral 
  law and this is a constant battle because we have an enemy who has been around 
  for a long time and who knows lots of tricks and God allows us to be tested 
  but not beyond what we are able to bear.
  
  3)Does the same grace of God that enables us 
  to fulfill the Levitical law also enable us to fulfill God's moral 
  law?
  
  jt: The Levitical law has been fulfilled already in Christ and 
  headquarters is now at the right hand of the Father in heaven. We are to 
  follow the Chief Shepherd and keep His Commandments which are to love God, 
  ourselves, and our neighbors.
  
  4) In another post today there was a comment made 
  about the 'covering of grace'. While I do not believe that we are 
  covered by grace (rather we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ), do you 
  view grace and law as two separate categories that are mutually 
  exclusive? Or do you believe that grace is present in the 
  law?
  
  jt: My definition of 'grace' is probably different from what is 
  generally accepted by much ofevangelical Christendom. I don't 
  believe that grace is ever a cover for sin. Rather grace is the ability 
  by the power of the cross to overcome sin. We overcome by grace through 
  faith. Faith was necessary under the law also and grace must have been 
  there; they were either blessed or cursed according to their choices in 
  life.
  
  If in any way I am mischaracterizing your thought here 
  please point it out. Jonathan
  
  jt: Not that I 
  can see so far Jonathan that is, if when we use a word we are meaning the same 
  thing.
  
  

  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorOn Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:54:41 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement with 
you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point to 
Christ as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus 
Jesus.

jt: I don't know if we are saying the same thing 
Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law which Israel did not 
or could notkeep according to Stephen (Acts 
7:43)

Jonathan: From past posts of yourswhich seemed to 
place primacy on the law and types I would have thought you would be more 
supportive of Suzy's position. It appears that I was wrong in thinking 
this of you. What I am now trying to understand is why you still think 
we are under the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws 
of Deuteronomy.

jt: Jesus who overcame death and 
hell by the 'eternal Spirit'introduced the Kingdom of God 
whichis the Spirit of the Law rather than the letter of the law which 
kills (not gnostic). God's nature, character and 
standards, have not ever

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Terry Clifton





Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
  Go back and read that, Judy. Jesus says TWO
commandsLove GOD with all your heart, soul, and mind and Love your
neighbor as yourself.
  Now, go check out the 613. Every single one of
them have to do with either loving God or loving your neighbor. 
  So...can we choose how to love God on our own,
or do we choose how to love Him by the way He says to?
  
  Kay

===
Sorry Kay, but I am afraid that you are missing something very
important. 
The original laws were for the children of Israel (lev.27:34).

The two commands are for followers of Christ, no matter what their
linage (Whosoever will ) Surely that should convince you that there
have to be differences. God did not doctor up the old covenant. He
made a new one.

The original commands contained stuff about feasts and sacrifices and
tithing and keeping the Sabbath. The new commands do not.

The original commands made it a sin to murder or commit adultery.
The new commands make it a sin to even entertain such thoughts in your
mind.

The new has replaced the old, but nothing has been lost except that
that is no longer necessary, and nothing has been added, except that
which is necessary to show the mind of Christ. For example, Christ was
our sacrifice, so those who trust Him no longer need bring sheep to a
Priest. That is over. Deleted. 

Added was the intent of the heart . God always looks at the heart, so
it naturally follows that desiring to murder some one of His creations
is just as evil as doing the deed. That is clarified in the new law.


According to the Bible, no one could ever keep the old law, so I would
think you would rejoice at it's demise instead of clinging to it as if
it still had some value. Everything you need to please the Lord is
still there in the two that Jesus gave us .

I tried to get Suzy to think about that, but she responded so fast that
it is obvious she did not dwell on it much. I hope you will mull it
over a little longer.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Susan Petersen

Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to rank the greatest
commandments. The top two are love the Lord your God
and the other is like it Love your neighbor. Just
because he gave those two a higher ranking than the
other laws does not mean that the lesser ranking laws
are no longer in effect. What Jesus wanted the
Pharisees to see that even though they were following
the law as far as the words were concerned they did
not do them out of love.  So I go back to what I said
earlier. We follow the law because we love the Lord
and want to obey Him.

I want to clarify something as well. You would
consider God's moral law as loving God and loving your
neighbor, correct?

Suzy 
--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:12:37 -0500 Slade Henson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 What do you think Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Peter, and
 all of the disciples
 taught from, Judy? What commandments 
 IS Jesus speaking of when He says...If you love Me,
 you will obey My
 commands?  Kay
 
 jt: I don't believe they spent time preparing a
 three point sermons Kay,
 nor do I believe they sat at the feet of the local
 Rabbi. In fact the
 fishermen were noted to be 'unlearned' men.  Since
 Paul was a pharisee he
 studied under Gamiliel (I think it was) at some
 point but all of that was
 useless to him without the revelation of the mystery
 he received from
 Christ during his time in the desert (Galatians 3:3)
  Paul said that
 flesh and blood didn't teach him his gospel, he
 received it by revelation
 and later on the leaders at Jerusalem validated it. 
 As for Peter, he was
 the first to receive this revelation from heaven
 about the Christ - Jesus
 said Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and
 blood did not reveal
 this to you but my Father which is in heaven
 
 As for your last question.  I've listed His commands
 on TT already -
 there are NOT 613 of them either See John 13:34,
 John 15:12, John
 15:17, We are told more than once that the whole law
 and the prophets are
 fulfilled in one word in the statement You shall
 love your neighbor as
 yourself (Galatians 5:14).  What can you add to
 make it better or more
 perfect?  Judyt
 
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
 Of Judy Taylor
 On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 Slade Henson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his
 back pocket as He
 walked in Israel.Kay
 
 jt: What's that supposed to mean Kay and why would
 Jesus need a copy of
 anything in his 'back pocket' if he had one?  After
 all he was walking in
 the fullness of the Spirit wasn't he?  Why have you
 taken the seat of the
 scornful?
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
 Of Hughes Jonathan
 Hi Kay,
 I would suggest that Judy is not saying/thinking
 what you wrote below.  I
 perceive Judy as a person who is very much concerned
 with matters of
 obedience and fearing God.  The disconnect may be in
 what/who one obeys. 
 I think that you may place primacy on obedience to
 levitical law while
 Judy would place primacy on obedience to the moral
 law illustrated in
 Jesus Christ.  Also, I think that Judy and you would
 disagree as to what
 commandments Jesus was speaking of when He says to
 do His commands.
 Jonathan Hughes 
  
 
 
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
 Of Slade Henson
 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
 
 
 The below would be the essence of what you're
 saying, Judy. We don't need
 God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the
 cross. We certainly
 aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead
 making up our own
 man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the
 way He told us to do
 it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better
 than His, wouldn't
 you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not
 do as He says to do
 in His commands??
 
 Kay
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
 Of Judy Taylor
 Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
 
 
 
 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
 Of Slade Henson
 Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however
 I choose 'cuz I'm
 covered by grace  K.
 
 jt: The above would be the musings of a deceived
 soul.  True grace is not
 a cover for sin.
 It is the power proceeding from the resurrection
 which enables us to do
 as we ought. 
 Nevertheless I do understand that there is too much
 of the above going on
 and not
 enough fear of God out there because we are living
 in the end times when
 folk will not
 endure 'sound doctrine'.  judyt
 
 
 
 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
 Of Lance Muir
 The indicatives of Grace always preceed the
 imperatives of Law. Take a
 look
 at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in
 Exodus.
 
 
 From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread David Miller

Judy,
I think a lot of problems of understanding happen when we do not define our 
terms in mutually agreeable ways.  For example, I understand Levitical law 
to be more than just ceremonial law.  You seem to see it differently.  You 
wrote:

Judy wrote:
The Levitical or Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but
God's moral standard or moral law still stands and this is
what we are judged by in the Last Day.
I consider the following part of the Levitical law:
Leviticus 19:17-18
(17) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise 
rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
(18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy 
people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

These commandments are moral, aren't they?
The biggest problem I have about this idea of differentiating moral law 
from ceremonial law is the fourth commandment, keep the seventh day 
sabbath.  Is this law ceremonial or moral?  Maybe you can answer this 
first.  I'm out of time right now anyway.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Terry Clifton





Susan Petersen wrote:

  Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to rank the greatest
commandments. The top two are love the Lord your God
and the other is like it Love your neighbor. Just
because he gave those two a higher ranking than the
other laws does not mean that the lesser ranking laws
are no longer in effect. 

==
Matthew 22: 40 On these two commandments hang ALL the
law and the prophets.
Jesus

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




Yep...you can categorize ALL of the Law and the prophets under one of 
those two headings...

Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry 
  CliftonSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 17.47To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  CommandsSusan Petersen wrote: 
  Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to rank the greatest
commandments. The top two are love the Lord your God
and the other is like it Love your neighbor. Just
because he gave those two a higher ranking than the
other laws does not mean that the lesser ranking laws
are no longer in effect. ==Matthew 
  22: 40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the 
  prophets.Jesus

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Jeff Powers




No It was the CEV, The Confused English 
Version
Jeff

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 
  14:54
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands
  
  
  In a message dated 11/15/2004 1:50:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as 
He walked in Israel.

Kay
  
  Yeah wonder if it was NIV, KJV or maybe the 
  Message? Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Jeff Powers

As I said, IGNORANCE IS BLISS!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 
  15:41
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands

  On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:12:37 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  What 
  do you think Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Peter,and all of the disciples taught 
  from, Judy? What commandments 
  IS 
  Jesus speaking of when He says...If you love Me, you will obey My 
  commands? Kay

  jt: I don't 
  believe they spent time preparing a three point sermons Kay, nor do I believe 
  they sat at the feet of the local Rabbi. In fact the fishermen were noted to 
  be 'unlearned' men. Since Paul was a pharisee he 
  studied under Gamiliel (I think it was) at somepoint but all of that was 
  useless to him without the revelation of the mystery he received from Christ 
  during his time in the desert (Galatians 3:3) 
  Paul said that flesh and blood didn't teach him his gospel, he received it by 
  revelation and later on the leaders at Jerusalem validated it. As for 
  Peter, he was the first to receive this revelation from heaven about the 
  Christ - Jesus said "Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood did not 
  reveal this to you but my Father which is in heaven"

  As for your 
  last question. I've listed His commands on TT already - there are NOT 
  613 of them either See John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17, We are told 
  more than once that the whole law and the prophets are fulfilled in one word 
  in the statement "You shall love your neighbor as 
  yourself" (Galatians 5:14). What can you add to make it better or more 
  perfect? Judyt

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorOn Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer Testament in his back pocket as 
  He walked in Israel.Kay

  jt: 
  What's that supposed to mean Kayand why would Jesus need a copy of 
  anything in his 'back pocket' if he had one? After all he was 
  walking in the fullness of the Spirit wasn't he? Why have you taken 
  the seat of the scornful?

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes 
  JonathanHi Kay,
  I would suggest that Judy is not 
  saying/thinking what you wrote below. I perceive Judy as a 
  person who is very much concerned with matters of obedience and 
  fearing God. The disconnect may be in what/who one obeys. 
  I think that you may place primacy on obedience to levitical law while 
  Judy would place primacy on obedience to the moral law illustrated in 
  Jesus Christ. Also, I think that Judy and you would disagree as 
  to what commandments Jesus was speaking of when He says to do His 
  commands.
  Jonathan Hughes

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:31 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands

  The below would be the essence of what you're saying, Judy. We 
  don't need God's law anymore, it was abolished by Christ on the cross. 
  We certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying, instead making 
  up our own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way He 
  told us to do it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better 
  than His, wouldn't you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not 
  do as He says to do in His commands??

  Kay

-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Monday, 15 November, 2004 11.13To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 
Commands

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Slade HensonToo cool! I can do whatever I want and 
live however I choose 'cuz I'm covered by grace K.

jt: The above would be the musings of a 
deceived soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.
It is the power proceeding from the 
resurrection which enables us to do as we ought. 
Nevertheless I do understand that there is 
too muchof the above going on and not
enough fear of God out there because we are 
living in the end times when folk will not
endure 'sound doctrine'. 
judyt

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On 
Beha

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Jeff Powers




Jeff in red:
- Original Message - 
From: "Hughes Jonathan" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 16:13
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands
Allow me to try to 
draw this out a bit further here. A picture would sayit better but my 
drawing skills are quite suspect.Creation --Grace-- The Fall --Grace-- Law --Grace-- Failure to uphold the law -- 
Graceenters in Jesus ChristThe usual method of thinking about this 
is to follow the word pictureabove. Creation occurs, and the Fall 
takes place. The law is given inorder to help humankind climb back to 
God. Humankind fails at upholdingthe law so God sends plan B: Jesus 
Christ. Grace enters the world inthe Person of Jesus Christ. Now 
we identify with Christ instead of thelaw. Retroactively grace is now 
extended back to those who followed thelaw, and even back to Adam 
himself. A mutually exclusive split iscreated between the law and 
grace.Lance is attempting to communicate something radically 
different. He isstating that grace is always present before law. 
Lance's/My version would be more like the following: Grace is not 
anaspect of who God is, not something to be squeezed out upon us 
butrather God Himself. Grace is present in who God is. The Fall 
does notchange God into having to deliver a new way for us to relate to 
Him. Itwas always through grace. Grace is given to enable Israel 
prior to thegiving of the law. This is why Lance mentions the 
paragraph prior tothe decalogue in Exodus. It is God telling Israel 
who He is. It canall be wrapped up in a single word: grace. 
Recognizing humankind'sfailure God continues to be gracious by sending us 
His Son. It is acircular way of viewing things instead of the linear 
concept above. Itis also a wholesome concept in the sense that it is 
not attempting todrive a wedge between law and grace. Rather, they are 
intertwined withgrace coming first.Note Lance's other post today 
which was a quote from Karl Barth's'Dogmatics in Outline', a small gem of a 
book. Take another read ofthis portion:"Gospel and law are not 
to be separated; they are one, in such a waythat the gospel is the primary 
thing; that the glad tidings are first inthe field and, as such, include the 
law. Because God is for us, we mayalso be for Him. Because He has given 
Himself to us we may also ingratitude give Him the trifle which we have to 
give. To hold to God thusalways means that we receive everything wholly from 
God and so arewholly active for Him."Does this help explain what 
Lance is talking about? I hope one can seethat there was no mention of 
being covered by grace or a criticism ofthe law itself. There was also 
no license given to live as we want.Jonathan 
HughesToo cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I 
choose 'cuz I'mcovered by graceK.The 
indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take alook at 
the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in 
Exodus.Lance--"Let your speech be always with grace, 
seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you 
do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you 
will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he 
will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Jonathan sounds marvelous when he is clothed and in his right mind. :-) Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hughes Jonathan
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 3:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Allow me to try to draw this out a bit further here. A picture would say
it better but my drawing skills are quite suspect.

Creation -- The Fall -- Law -- Failure to uphold the law -- Grace
enters in Jesus Christ

The usual method of thinking about this is to follow the word picture
above.  Creation occurs, and the Fall takes place.  The law is given in
order to help humankind climb back to God.  Humankind fails at upholding
the law so God sends plan B: Jesus Christ.  Grace enters the world in
the Person of Jesus Christ.  Now we identify with Christ instead of the
law.  Retroactively grace is now extended back to those who followed the
law, and even back to Adam himself.  A mutually exclusive split is
created between the law and grace.

Lance is attempting to communicate something radically different.  He is
stating that grace is always present before law.  
Lance's/My version would be more like the following:  Grace is not an
aspect of who God is, not something to be squeezed out upon us but
rather God Himself.  Grace is present in who God is.  The Fall does not
change God into having to deliver a new way for us to relate to Him.  It
was always through grace.  Grace is given to enable Israel prior to the
giving of the law.  This is why Lance mentions the paragraph prior to
the decalogue in Exodus.  It is God telling Israel who He is.  It can
all be wrapped up in a single word: grace.  Recognizing humankind's
failure God continues to be gracious by sending us His Son.  It is a
circular way of viewing things instead of the linear concept above.  It
is also a wholesome concept in the sense that it is not attempting to
drive a wedge between law and grace.  Rather, they are intertwined with
grace coming first.

Note Lance's other post today which was a quote from Karl Barth's
'Dogmatics in Outline', a small gem of a book.  Take another read of
this portion:

Gospel and law are not to be separated; they are one, in such a way
that the gospel is the primary thing; that the glad tidings are first in
the field and, as such, include the law. Because God is for us, we may
also be for Him. Because He has given Himself to us we may also in
gratitude give Him the trifle which we have to give. To hold to God thus
always means that we receive everything wholly from God and so are
wholly active for Him.

Does this help explain what Lance is talking about?  I hope one can see
that there was no mention of being covered by grace or a criticism of
the law itself.  There was also no license given to live as we want.

Jonathan Hughes

Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
covered by grace

K.

The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a
look at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

Lance

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands









Jeff, I wonder if you think that was in
any way an edifying comment. Or was it, as it seems, just an ugly insult? It
made you look worse than it made Judy look. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Powers
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004
7:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands







As I said, IGNORANCE IS BLISS!







- Original Message - 





From: Judy Taylor






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: Monday, November
15, 2004 15:41





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
613 Commands























On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:12:37 -0500 Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:





What do you think Jesus, Paul, Timothy,
Peter,and all of the disciples taught from, Judy? What commandments 





IS Jesus speaking of when He says...If you
love Me, you will obey My commands? Kay











jt: I don't believe
they spent time preparing a three point sermons Kay, nor do I believe they sat
at the feet of the local Rabbi. In fact the fishermen were noted to be
'unlearned' men. Since Paul was a pharisee he studied under Gamiliel (I
think it was) at somepoint but all of that was useless to him without the
revelation of the mystery he received from Christ during his time in the desert
(Galatians 3:3) Paul said that flesh and blood didn't teach him his
gospel, he received it by revelation and later on the leaders at Jerusalem
validated it. As for Peter, he was the first to receive this revelation
from heaven about the Christ - Jesus said Blessed are you Simon Barjona
for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father which is in
heaven











As for your last
question. I've listed His commands on TT already - there are NOT 613 of
them either See John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17, We are told more than
once that the whole law and the prophets are fulfilled in one word in the
statement You shall love your neighbor as
yourself (Galatians 5:14). What can you add to make it better or
more perfect? Judyt














From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:48:49 -0500 Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Maybe Jesus had a copy of the Newer
Testament in his back pocket as He walked in Israel.Kay











jt: What's that
supposed to mean Kayand why would Jesus need a copy of anything in his
'back pocket' if he had one? After all he was walking in the fullness of
the Spirit wasn't he? Why have you taken the seat of the scornful?








From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Hughes Jonathan
Hi Kay,

I would suggest that Judy is not
saying/thinking what you wrote below. I perceive Judy as a person who is
very much concerned with matters of obedience and fearing God. The
disconnect may be in what/who one obeys. I think that you may place
primacy on obedience to levitical law while Judy would place primacy on
obedience to the moral law illustrated in Jesus Christ. Also, I think
that Judy and you would disagree as to what commandments Jesus was speaking of
when He says to do His commands.

Jonathan
Hughes








From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004
1:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands



The below would be the essence of what
you're saying, Judy. We don't need God's law anymore, it was abolished by
Christ on the cross. We certainly aren't fearing God when we aren't obeying,
instead making up our own man-made ways of worshipping Him, rather than the way
He told us to do it. We've figured out and our plan is so much better than His,
wouldn't you agree? Sounds like it to me, otherwise, why not do as He says to
do in His commands??











Kay





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Monday, 15 November, 2004
11.13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands










[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm covered
by grace K.











jt: The above would be the musings of a
deceived soul. True grace is not a cover for sin.





It is the power proceeding from the resurrection
which enables us to do as we ought. 





Nevertheless I do understand that there
is too muchof the above going on and not





enough fear of God out there because we
are living in the end times when folk will not





endure 'sound doctrine'. judyt



















[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a look
at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

















From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Adhering to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is
 legalism and bondage. There is nothing we can do to
 earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow
 the Law

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-15 Thread Terry Clifton

ShieldsFamily wrote:
Jonathan sounds marvelous when he is clothed and in his right mind. :-) Izzy
 

=
Don't knock it.  This is a definite improvement.
Terry
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

Who's knocking it??? Keep it up! 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 6:48 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

ShieldsFamily wrote:

Jonathan sounds marvelous when he is clothed and in his right mind. :-)
Izzy

=
Don't knock it.  This is a definite improvement.
Terry
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:28:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The indicatives of Grace always preceed the imperatives of Law. Take a look
at the paragraph just prior to the decalogue in Exodus.

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:30:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Too cool! I can do whatever I want and live however I choose 'cuz I'm
covered by grace

K.



You offer a biblical arugment, the same argument, Paul had to deal with in Romans 6:1 which tells me that Lance is on the right track. 

John the Logical

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/15/2004 5:09:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

And there is no difference
between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments.


1) Does not your view of the commandments include holy days, and imperatives that involve all of the Mosaical Law with the exception of the sacrifical laws? 

2) Since I am a Gentile -- where in scripture is Mosaical Law bound upon me in Jesus?

3) Am I nonetheless a brother in Christ ?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

In a message dated 11/15/2004 6:53:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

ADDENDUM

We ourselves shall never be true to ourselves. Our human path is, as such, a
path from one disloyalty to another; and it is the same with the ways of the
gods of this world. They do not keep what they promise. So with them there
is never any real peace and clarity. In God alone is there faithfulness, and
faith is the trust that we may hold to Him, to His promise and to His
guidance. To hold to God is to rely on the fact that God is there for me,
and to live in this certainty. This is the promise God gives us; I am there
for you. But this promise at once means guidance too. I am not left to my
waywardness and my own ideas; but I have His commandment, to which I may
hold in everything, in my entire earthly existence. The Creed is always at
the same time the gospel, God's glad tidings to man, the message of
Immanuel, God with us, to us; and as such it is necessarily also the law.
Gospel and law are not to be separated; they are one, in such a way that the
gospel is the primary thing; that the glad tidings are first in the field
and, as such, include the law. Because God is for us, we may also be for
Him. Because He has given Himself to us we may also in gratitude give Him
the trifle which we have to give. To hold to God thus always means that we
receive everything wholly from God and so are wholly active for Him.

The man of few words speaks volumes. As an aside, I almost never openly disagree with either Lance or Terry. Two very different individuals for whom I hold in high regard. If they speak in terms that are not of my choice, I actually take time to see if there is anyway I can agree with them. Lance, in the above, says "Gospel and law are not to be separated .." In my writings there is a lot of separation between the two. Study time. Terry recently asked for some clarification on "repentance." He does not know this until now, but I committed myself to a word study that took perhaps 10 hours. I changed my view somewhat, as a result of his questioning.

Slade, remember my saying that you never know if your words are having an effect or not? Here is a case in point. Bill Taylor's thinking provided an opportunity for great change in my thinking --- while that change was in the defining stage, Bill left the forum. He would have never known how much good he had done except for the recent opportunity found in our meeting while in Colorado.

If we read Lance in the above -- carefully and thoughfully, with a view of understanding his point -- I think we will see some excellent thinking worded in the best of manners.

John

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread Susan Petersen

If the Levitical Priesthood is no longer relevant than
why do we need Jesus as our High Priest? And if we are
no longer supposed to do the feasts why are we going
to be doing them in the Millenial Kingdom? Also, if we
consider ourselves adopted sons and daughters of
Christ why don't we have to follow the House rules? 

Following the Law is not a thing that we do to earn
our salvation! We follow God's Law because we love him
and want to obey him. John 14:15- If you love Me, you
will obey my commandments. Jesus quotes the Law all
the time. Also, John 15: 9-11- Just as the Father has
loved Me, I have also loved you ; abide in my love. If
you keep my commandments, you will abide in My love;
just as I have kept My Father's commands and abide in
His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My
joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.

Knowing and believing Moses and the Prophets is a
must. Luke 16: 27-31: When the rich man asked to have
someone  warn his brothers to believe, Jesus told him
that they had Moses and the Prophets and that his
brother should hear them. v. 31- But he said to him,
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they
will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the
dead.

John 5:46-47- For if you believed Moses, you would
believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not
believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

Matthew 5:17-20 tells exactly what Jesus came to do in
reference to the Law. Do not think that I came to
abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to
abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until
heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or
stroke shall pass from the Law until all is
accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of
these commandments, and teaches others to do the same,
shall be least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever
keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless
your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and
Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I John 2:3-6 explains how we know that we have come to
know Christ. By this we know that we have come to
know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who
says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His
commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
but whoever keeps His Word, in Him the love of God has
truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in
Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself
to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Suzy

--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:45:54 -0600 ShieldsFamily
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Judy, The point It is finished on the cross was
 that Jesus died to do
 away with Sin; which is the opposite of doing away
 with the Law, because
 sin is defined as lawlessness.  I John 3:4,
 Everyone who practices sin
 also practices lawlessness; and [Rom 4:15; 1 John
 5:17] sin is
 lawlessness.
 
 What do you consider the Levitical Law? If you are
 talking about
 Talmud, I agreeit is not scripture.  Gods laws are
 scripture and as
 such, as you have eloquently stated, will never be
 done away with.  Izzy
 
 Judy responds:: I agree with the above Izzy - The
 Levitical Law has to do
 with the Levitical Priesthood and the animal
 sacrifices, feasts, and
 everything having to do with the earthly temple and
 it is explained in
 Hebrews 9 and 10. This and the Talmud are no longer
 relevant according to
 my understanding.  Judyt.
 
 
 
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
 Of Judy Taylor
 
 I don't believe God's moral law has gone anywhere -
 It is the Levitical
 law that was nailed to the cross because it has been
 completed in Christ.
 We no longer need Levitical priests, we have a Great
 High Priest who sits
 on the right hand of God the Father in the
 heavenlies.  What point do you
 believe I have missed that has to do with the cross?
  Judyt
  
 On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:14:45 -0600 ShieldsFamily
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Judy, If you think It is finished! referred to
 Gods law you have
 missed the whole point of the Cross. Izzy
  
 
 
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
 Of Judy Taylor
  
 Hi Izzy  all,
 Thank you for asking.  I'm not very often stuck for
 words but these 613
 Commands along with reaction on TT to the
 death of Arafat have left me (momentarily)
 speechless.  To begin with I
 can't see any wisdom in resurrecting Levitical Law
 which was nailed to
 the cross when Jesus cried It is finished!  In
 Galatians Paul tells us
 that adding Jewish law to the finished work of
 Christ will cause one who
 began in the Spirit to fall from grace - so how
 did we get here??
  
 As for the demise of Arafat .. the wisdom of God
 says Because I have
 called, and ye refused. I have stretched out my
 hand, and no man
 regarded; but ye have set at nought all my counsel,
 and would have none
 of my reproof; I also will laugh at

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread Jeff Powers

Jeff in red:

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 
0:53
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 
  Commands

  On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:45:54 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:

Judy, The point It 
is finished on the cross was that Jesus died to do away with Sin; which is 
the opposite of doing away with the Law, because sin is defined as 
lawlessness. I John 3:4, Everyone who practices 
sin also practices lawlessness; and [Rom 4:15; 1 John 
5:17] sin is lawlessness.

What do you 
consider the Levitical Law? If you are talking about Talmud, I agreeit is 
not scripture. Gods laws are scripture and as such, as you have 
eloquently stated, will never be done away with. 
Izzy

Judy responds:: I 
agree with the above Izzy - The Levitical Law has to do with the Levitical 
Priesthood and the animal sacrifices, feasts, and everything having to do 
with the earthly temple and it is explained in Hebrews 9 and 10. This and 
the Talmud are no longer relevant according to my understanding. 
Judyt.

So then, it is true that 
you DO NOT understand. Nor do you want to understand. One point here, God's 
Feasts, Gods holy days are not Levitical Laws they are for everyone who 
claims to be a child of God. Jews and Gentiles. Did God ordain 
christmas or easter? NO! They are not Biblical holy days (holidays), they 
are manmade. Those are the holy days-doctrines of menGod wants us to 
move away from. I suggest that you get and study a book, 
Celebrate the Feasts, of the old testament in your own home or 
church, by Martha Zimmerman. This book is by a Christian 
author and I think the back cover note will explain much,
 "The great religious 
feasts as described in the Old Testament and Jewish tradition are full of 
spiritual truth presented in the New Testament... The author carefully 
researched these festivals... She then prepaired the complete information 
necessary to recreate the symbolic representations of Christ as found in the 
holy celebrations of the Old Testament..." 
Nothing has been 
done away with, but you fail to see that the writer of Hebrews is explaining 
that everything known to the reciepients of that letter is but aSHADOW 
of what is to come.So just who were the reciepients of the letter to 
the Hebrews? Messianic Jews, who not only understood the author but 
didn't cornfuse it into something it is not. If that is a shadow, then 
where is the real McCoy? I think in our lifetime we will see the 
temple rebuilt. There can be no shadow without the real item existing to 
cast a shadow. 
 Judy you miss the 
point on a lot of truth here because you confuse Torah and Talmud, the 
doctrine of Messiah and the doctrines of men, your own misunderstandings and 
Biblical truth.

From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Judy 
Taylor

I don't believe God's moral law has 
gone anywhere - It isthe Levitical law that was nailed to the cross 
because it has been completed in Christ. We no longer need Levitical 
priests, we have a Great High Priest who sits on the right hand of God the 
Father in the heavenlies. What point do you believe I havemissed 
that has to do with the cross? 
Judyt

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:14:45 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Judy, If you 
  think It is finished! referred to Gods law you have missed the whole 
  point of the Cross. Izzy

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
  Taylor

  Hi Izzy  
  all,

  Thank you for asking. I'm 
  not very often stuck for words but these 613 Commands along with reaction 
  on TT to the

  death of Arafat have left me 
  (momentarily) speechless. To begin with I can'tsee any 
  wisdomin resurrectingLevitical Law which was nailed to the 
  cross when Jesus cried "It is finished!" In Galatians Paul tells us 
  that adding Jewish law to the finished work of Christwill cause one 
  who began in the Spirit to "fall from grace" - so how did we get 
  here??

  As for the demise of Arafat .. the 
  wisdom of God says "Because I have called, and ye refused. I have 
  stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all 
  my counsel, and would have none of my reproof; I also will laugh at your 
  calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as 
  desolation and your destruction

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread Jeff Powers

Beautiful!
- Original Message - 
From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:42
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

If the Levitical Priesthood is no longer relevant than
why do we need Jesus as our High Priest? And if we are
no longer supposed to do the feasts why are we going
to be doing them in the Millenial Kingdom? Also, if we
consider ourselves adopted sons and daughters of
Christ why don't we have to follow the House rules?
Following the Law is not a thing that we do to earn
our salvation! We follow God's Law because we love him
and want to obey him. John 14:15- If you love Me, you
will obey my commandments. Jesus quotes the Law all
the time. Also, John 15: 9-11- Just as the Father has
loved Me, I have also loved you ; abide in my love. If
you keep my commandments, you will abide in My love;
just as I have kept My Father's commands and abide in
His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My
joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.
Knowing and believing Moses and the Prophets is a
must. Luke 16: 27-31: When the rich man asked to have
someone  warn his brothers to believe, Jesus told him
that they had Moses and the Prophets and that his
brother should hear them. v. 31- But he said to him,
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they
will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the
dead.
John 5:46-47- For if you believed Moses, you would
believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not
believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
Matthew 5:17-20 tells exactly what Jesus came to do in
reference to the Law. Do not think that I came to
abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to
abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until
heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or
stroke shall pass from the Law until all is
accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of
these commandments, and teaches others to do the same,
shall be least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever
keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless
your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and
Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
I John 2:3-6 explains how we know that we have come to
know Christ. By this we know that we have come to
know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who
says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His
commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
but whoever keeps His Word, in Him the love of God has
truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in
Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself
to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Suzy
--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:45:54 -0600 ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy, The point It is finished on the cross was
that Jesus died to do
away with Sin; which is the opposite of doing away
with the Law, because
sin is defined as lawlessness.  I John 3:4,
Everyone who practices sin
also practices lawlessness; and [Rom 4:15; 1 John
5:17] sin is
lawlessness.
What do you consider the Levitical Law? If you are
talking about
Talmud, I agree-it is not scripture.  God's laws are
scripture and as
such, as you have eloquently stated, will never be
done away with.  Izzy
Judy responds:: I agree with the above Izzy - The
Levitical Law has to do
with the Levitical Priesthood and the animal
sacrifices, feasts, and
everything having to do with the earthly temple and
it is explained in
Hebrews 9 and 10. This and the Talmud are no longer
relevant according to
my understanding.  Judyt.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Judy Taylor
I don't believe God's moral law has gone anywhere -
It is the Levitical
law that was nailed to the cross because it has been
completed in Christ.
We no longer need Levitical priests, we have a Great
High Priest who sits
on the right hand of God the Father in the
heavenlies.  What point do you
believe I have missed that has to do with the cross?
 Judyt
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:14:45 -0600 ShieldsFamily
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy, If you think It is finished! referred to
God's law you have
missed the whole point of the Cross. Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Judy Taylor
Hi Izzy  all,
Thank you for asking.  I'm not very often stuck for
words but these 613
Commands along with reaction on TT to the
death of Arafat have left me (momentarily)
speechless.  To begin with I
can't see any wisdom in resurrecting Levitical Law
which was nailed to
the cross when Jesus cried It is finished!  In
Galatians Paul tells us
that adding Jewish law to the finished work of
Christ will cause one who
began in the Spirit to fall from grace - so how
did we get here??
As for the demise of Arafat .. the wisdom of God
says Because I have
called, and ye refused. I have stretched out my
hand, and no man
regarded; but ye have set at nought all my

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]If the 
Levitical Priesthood is no longer relevant than why do we need Jesus as our High 
Priest? And if we areno longer supposed to do the feasts why are we going to 
be doing them in the Millenial Kingdom? Also, if weconsider ourselves 
adopted sons and daughters of Christ why don't we have to follow the House 
rules? 

Hi Susan and welcome to TT. Jesus our High Priest is 
after another order. He is after the order of Melchizidec which was before the 
Aaronic Levitical priesthood and is eternal. Where in scripture do you get 
the term "House rules?" Are you culturaly Jewish also?

Following the Law is not a thing that we do to earn our salvation! We 
follow God's Law because we love him and want to obey him. John 14:15- If you 
love Me, you will obey my commandments. 

jt: Yes but now on the other side 
of the cross we are as Paul who says in 1 Cor 9:21 "Being not without the law to 
God but under the law of Christ" - which we can go into later if you 
wish.
Jesus quotes the Law all the time. Also, John 15: 9-11- Just as the Father 
has loved Me, I have also loved you ; abide in my love. If you keep my 
commandments, you will abide in My love;just as I have kept My Father's commands 
and abide inHis love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may 
be in you, and that your joy may be complete.

jt: And what are Jesus' Commandments?

Knowing and believing Moses and the Prophets is a must. Luke 16: 27-31: 
When the rich man asked to have someone warn his brothers to believe, 
Jesus told him that they had Moses and the Prophets and that his brother should 
hear them. v. 31- But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the 
Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.

jt: Yes I'm familiar with that parable but now we have 
someone greater than Moses; we have the prophet promised in Deuteronomy 18:18,19 
and it is His words we must hear..

John 5:46-47- For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote 
about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My 
words?

jt: We need to understand this in balance and in 
context. Jesus was speaking to people born under the law (Mosaic Covenant); we 
have not been. We have been born under a covenant of grace.

Matthew 5:17-20 tells exactly what Jesus came to do in reference to the 
Law. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not 
come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth 
pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is 
accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and 
teaches others to do the same, shall be least in the kingdom of heaven; but 
whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of 
heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the 
scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

jt: And all of this to the lost sheep of the house of 
Israel before the cross and before Pentecost when the power was sent from on 
high to enable to the Church to do the works of Jesus in this sad and fallen 
world.

I John 2:3-6 explains how we know that we have come to know Christ. "By 
this we know that we have come toknow Him, if we keep 
His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does 
not keep Hiscommandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever 
keeps His Word, in Him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know 
that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought 
himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Suzy

jt: Again .. what exactly 
are His commandments?
You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 
19:18)
The whole law is fulfilled in one word in the statement 
you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Gal 5:14)
However you want people to treat you, so treat them, 
this is the law and the prophets (Matt 7:12)
A new commandment I give to you that you love one 
another as I have loved you (John 13:34)
This is my commandment that you love one another (John 
15:12)
This I command you that you love one another (John 
15:17)
And love one another just as he commanded us (1 John 
3:23b)
You yourselves are taught by God to love one another (1 
Thess 4:9)





Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:45:54 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes: Judy, The point It is finished on the cross was that 
Jesus died to do away with Sin; which is the opposite of doing 
away with the Law, because sin is defined as 
lawlessness. I John 3:4, Everyone who practices sin also 
practices lawlessness; and [Rom 4:15; 1 John 5:17] sin is 
lawlessness.  What do you consider the Levitical Law? If you 
are talking about Talmud, I agreeit is not scripture. 
Gods laws are scripture and as such, as you have eloquently 
stated, will never be done away with. Izzy  Judy

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:40:23 -0500 "Jeff Powers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Jeff in red:
  

So then, it is 
true that you DO NOT understand. Nor do you want to understand. 


jt: No, the above 
is false. God has given me the understanding I need and when I need more I 
ask Him to show me. I have beenborn again andspirit filled; 
Ihear the voice of the Chief Shepherd and I follow Him.

One point here, 
God's Feasts, Gods holy days are not Levitical Laws they are for everyone 
who claims to be a child of God. Jews and Gentiles. 

jt: The feasts and 
days were given to Israel as a Nation under the law of Moses.

Did God ordain 
christmas or easter? NO! They are not Biblical holy days (holidays), they 
are manmade. Those are the holy days-doctrines of menGod wants us to 
move away from. I suggest that you get and study a book, 
Celebrate the Feasts, of the old testament in your own home or 
church, by Martha Zimmerman. This book is by a Christian 
author and I think the back cover note will explain much,

jt: I understand 
that Christmas, Easter, Halloween etc. are not ordained of God. They are 
secular feast days and today we alllive in a secular 
society.

  
   "The great 
  religious feasts as described in the Old Testament and Jewish tradition 
  are full of spiritual truth presented in the New Testament... The 
  author carefully researched these festivals... She then prepaired the 
  complete information necessary to recreate the symbolic representations of 
  Christ as found in the holy celebrations of the Old Testament..." 
  
  
  jt: I understand that 
  the law was given as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ and it is my 
  personal belief that the law is holy, it is spiritual, and it is good if 
  taught correctly.
  
  Nothing has been 
  done away with, 
  
  jt: What are the 
  ordinances against you that were nailed to the cross?
  
  but you fail to see that 
  the writer of Hebrews is explaining that everything known to the 
  reciepients of that letter is but aSHADOW of what is to 
  come.
  
  jt: The writer of 
  Hebrews is explaining that the earthly (ie Levitical) was but a shadow of 
  that which was to come and is now here which is the heavenly. Have 
  you read Hebrews Chapters 9 and 10?
  
  So just who were the 
  reciepients of the letter to the Hebrews?
  
  jt: All of Paul's 
  epistles are written to and for the Church in every generation.
  
  Messianic Jews, who not 
  only understood the author but didn't cornfuse it into something it is 
  not. If that is a shadow, then where is the real McCoy? 
  
  
  jt: The real McCoy is 
  Jesus whohas broken down the wall of partition. God's people are now 
  "one new man" and headquarters is in heaven Jeff.
  
  I think in our lifetime 
  we will see the temple rebuilt. There can be no shadow without the real 
  item existing to cast a shadow. 
  
  jt: The real has never 
  gone anywhere Jeff. There hasalways been a real in heaven, the 
  shadow was given as a temporary measure until in the fulness of time the 
  real was made manifest.
  
  Judy you miss the point 
  on a lot of truth here because you confuse Torah and Talmud, the doctrine 
  of Messiah and the doctrines of men, your own misunderstandings and 
  Biblical truth.
  
  jt: I don't confuse any 
  of the above Jeff. I just don't give it all the exactsame 
  significance as you do. The temple may be rebuilt in Jerusalem 
  temporarilybut for what purpose? So that the antichrist can be 
  revealed?
  
  

  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
  Taylor
  
  I don't believe God's moral law 
  has gone anywhere - It isthe Levitical law that was nailed to the 
  cross because it has been completed in Christ. We no longer need Levitical 
  priests, we have a Great High Priest who sits on the right hand of God the 
  Father in the heavenlies. What point do you believe I 
  havemissed that has to do with the cross? 
  Judyt
  
  
  
  On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:14:45 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Judy, If you 
think It is finished! referred to Gods law you have missed the whole 
point of the Cross. Izzy





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
Taylor

Hi Izzy  
all,



Thank you for 
asking. I'm not very often stuck for words but these 613 Commands

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread Jonathan Hughes









Often on this forum I feel like I am
pointing out the obvious. Judy, Izzy posted a WorldNetDaily article
dealing with reported stories of Arafat being a homosexual.
You then brought this into a conversation with Slade. You admit that it
is something that is just reported, not necessarily truth.
A few weeks ago your gums began flapping when I posted information stating that
Matt Drudge was reportedly a homosexual. You thought that
such reports should not be made public since they were not verified. The
Straight Up Question: Are you ever aware of your own hypocrisy?



JBH







We are supposed tohave our senses
exercised so that we are able to discern between good and evil.Yassir
Arafat is reportedly a homosexual terrorist who steals from his own people
keeping them impoverished and bound; he respresents the epitomy of evil.











REPORTEDLY Since you don't know, why
did you bring it up?











jt: I didn't bring it up Slade, Arafat
has been the topic of discussion on this list all week, where have you been?


















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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands






On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:41:57 -0500 
"Jeff Powers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:Beautiful!

jt:One more point Jeff,
Since AD70 when the temple was destroyed by Titus Jews 
have had no sacrifice to go to
on the day of atonement. So how do you deal with 
your own sin if you have not so far
been able to recognize and go to theheavenly sacrifice? Do you just let them all back 

up until the temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem? judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands




jt: Jonathan once more pointing the finger
with four of them pointing back at himself. You made 
the statement that Matt Drudge WAS homosexual based on some very flimsy 
suggestions by a website so scuzzy that I felt in need of a bath after I went 
there once. OTOH I qualified my statement even though Arafat's pederasty 
is an open secret and has been documented in books and articles for 
years.
Jonathan how is it that you never want to discuss 
issues and ideas? Your focus seems to be always on the person? 


On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:52:07 -0500 "Jonathan Hughes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  Often on this forum I 
  feel like I am pointing out the obvious. Judy, Izzy posted a 
  WorldNetDaily article dealing with reported stories of Arafat being a 
  homosexual. You then brought this into a conversation with Slade. 
  You admit that it is something that is just reported, not necessarily 
  truth. A few weeks ago your gums began flapping when I posted 
  information stating that Matt Drudge was reportedly a homosexual. You 
  thought that such reports should not be made public since they were not 
  verified. The Straight Up Question: Are you ever aware of your own 
  hypocrisy?
  
  JBH
  
  

We are supposed tohave our 
senses exercised so that we are able to discern between good and 
evil.Yassir Arafat is reportedly a homosexual terrorist who steals 
from his own people keeping them impoverished and bound; he respresents the 
epitomy of evil.



REPORTEDLY Since you don't know, 
why did you bring it up?



jt: I didn't bring it up Slade, 
Arafat has been the topic of discussion on this list all week, where have 
you been?


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RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread ShieldsFamily









Judy, how many times must you be told this
to remember it: NO one on TT has EVER said that we still observe the rites of
the temple, because there no longer IS a temple. Can you remember that?



NOW, to move on.what objection do
you have to the OTHER commandments of the Bible? Kay has been listing every one
of them, and so far I dont believe you have objected to keeping a single
one of them. This is your one chance to do so. Otherwise, do not
throw out a blanket objection to the OT Law, okay? Please
review them and let us know. Thank you, Izzy







Judy responds:: I agree with the above
Izzy - The Levitical Law has to do with the Levitical Priesthood and the animal
sacrifices, feasts, and everything having to do with the earthly temple and it
is explained in Hebrews 9 and 10. This and the Talmud are no longer relevant
according to my understanding. Judyt.

RE: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread ShieldsFamily









Read it again, Jon. I stated that I intentionally
did not post any articles about his sexual perversity. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004
8:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 613
Commands





Often on this forum I feel like I am
pointing out the obvious. Judy, Izzy posted a WorldNetDaily article
dealing with reported stories of Arafat being a homosexual. You then
brought this into a conversation with Slade. You admit that it is
something that is just reported, not necessarily truth. A few weeks ago
your gums began flapping when I posted information stating that Matt Drudge was
reportedly a homosexual. You thought that such reports should not be
made public since they were not verified. The Straight Up Question:
Are you ever aware of your own hypocrisy?



JBH







We are supposed tohave our senses
exercised so that we are able to discern between good and evil.Yassir
Arafat is reportedly a homosexual terrorist who steals from his own people
keeping them impoverished and bound; he respresents the epitomy of evil.











REPORTEDLY Since you don't know, why
did you bring it up?











jt: I didn't bring it up Slade, Arafat
has been the topic of discussion on this list all week, where have you been?


















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Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread Terry Clifton

Susan Petersen wrote:
If the Levitical Priesthood is no longer relevant than
why do we need Jesus as our High Priest? And if we are
no longer supposed to do the feasts why are we going
to be doing them in the Millenial Kingdom? Also, if we
consider ourselves adopted sons and daughters of
Christ why don't we have to follow the House rules? 

Following the Law is not a thing that we do to earn
our salvation! We follow God's Law because we love him
and want to obey him. John 14:15- If you love Me, you
will obey my commandments. Jesus quotes the Law all
the time. Also, John 15: 9-11- Just as the Father has
loved Me, I have also loved you ; abide in my love. If
you keep my commandments, you will abide in My love;
just as I have kept My Father's commands and abide in
His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My
joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.
Knowing and believing Moses and the Prophets is a
must. Luke 16: 27-31: When the rich man asked to have
someone  warn his brothers to believe, Jesus told him
that they had Moses and the Prophets and that his
brother should hear them. v. 31- But he said to him,
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they
will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the
dead.
John 5:46-47- For if you believed Moses, you would
believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not
believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
Matthew 5:17-20 tells exactly what Jesus came to do in
reference to the Law. Do not think that I came to
abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to
abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until
heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or
stroke shall pass from the Law until all is
accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of
these commandments, and teaches others to do the same,
shall be least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever
keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless
your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and
Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
I John 2:3-6 explains how we know that we have come to
know Christ. By this we know that we have come to
know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who
says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His
commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
but whoever keeps His Word, in Him the love of God has
truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in
Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself
to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Suzy
 

===
Mornin' Suzy.  We need a high priest because all believers are now 
priests, and the high priest sets the standard for us.  The veil in the 
temple is no longer there.  We priests can go directly to God without a 
human intermediary because Jesus is there interceding for us.

If you have a mortgage that charges ten percent interest over thirty 
years and you refinance at five percent over fifteen years, you no 
longer pay ten percent.  You go by the terms of the new contract.  That 
is pretty much how it is with covenants, with one exception.  With a 
contract, both parties agree to the terms.  With a covenant,  the 
stronger party sets the terms and the weaker party has to abide by them.

God decreed a new covenant, making the old covenant null and void.  
That was His plan from the beginning.  He told Abraham, Through you, 
all nations will be blessed. ( Not by becoming Jews or keeping the 
Mosaic covenant, but by becoming believers, followers of Christ. ) 
Leviticus 27:34 makes it plain that the Mosaic covenant was only for the 
Jews, where the new covenant is for whosoever will, Jew or Gentile.  
The offer is to everyone, and everyone is equal in God's sight.  It is 
not that God loves Slade less, it is that now He loves me just as much.  
At one time, Gentiles were outside the covenant.  Now they are included. 

We are not under the old laws, and it is just as well, because Peter and 
Paul both made it clear that no Jew was able to keep them all, and when 
you broke one, you failed as surely as if you had broken them all.  We 
are under a new covenant, just two laws.  Love God with everything you 
have in you, and love others as yourself.  At one time, it was 
acceptable for King David to hate his enemy.  We do not have that 
option.  At one time, the brook Kidron ran red with the blood of 
thousands of lambs on every passover.  That is no longer necessary.  The 
blood of Jesus changed everything.

You probably won't be able to see this any better than my brother Slade 
can, but it is the truth, and it is there if you look, not my word, but 
God's.  Not my plan, but God's.  Please feel free to maintain any 
tradition that you think may be pleasing to the Lord, but please do not 
try to place that yoke on the neck of other believers.  It won't fit.
Blessings,
Terry

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands

2004-11-14 Thread Susan Petersen

Jesus and the Father are ONE. Why do you separate
their commandments as if they are two. Jesus' commands
and God's commands are one in the same. Jesus quotes
the Law all of the time and says obey MY commandments.
He followed God's commandements perfectly. 

And while we are at it so did Paul. And, Paul was
after the cross. Philipians 3:5-6- circumcised the
eight day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a
Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as
to RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS IN THE LAW, found
blameless. If Paul is really speaking against the Law
why does he waste his time following it blamelessly.

Yes, we are to love. But if you look at the Law you
would see that each Law has to do with either loving
God or loving your neighbor. If you are unwilling to
follow the Law then you are missing the instructions
of how to love the Lord your God with all of your
heart and how to love your neighbor as yourself.

I also agree that we have someone greater than Moses.
We have Jesus. Moses was used by God to write His
commandments. Jesus is the Law. John 1:1- In the
beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word WAS God. If you say any part of the Word is
invalid than you are saying that some part of God is
invalid.

Hebrews speaks of the order of Melchizedek. Jesus is
that High Priest. Of course God had to set up a
perfect priesthood so that we could be with Him for
eternity. Man is sinful. Man could not have possibly
been the bridge to God because man is sinful. But,
just because he set up a new priest does not mean that
this new priest does not have to follow the Laws God
made for sacrifices. As a matter of fact, they would
have to follow the Law perfectly in order for their
sacrifice for the people to be acceptable for
eternity. There are other sacrifices and offerings
that were made on the altar besides the sin
sacrifices.

You avoided my question if we are adopted sons and
daughters of God why don't we have to follow God's
Law? I said it that way so that you would understand
my little House rules. What family are you adopted
into? Is there a separation between God's family and
Jesus' family? 

Romans 11 is talking about the Gentiles knowing
salvation and being grafted in the rich root of the
olive tree. The rich root of the olive tree is the
family of God. It also warns the Gentiles about being
arrogant toward the natural branches because it is the
root that supports you not you supporting the root. By
ignoring that rich root you are a branch that is
independent of the olive tree. If God did not spare
the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 

Suzy

--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 From: Susan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 If the Levitical Priesthood is no longer relevant
 than why do we need
 Jesus as our High Priest? And if we are
 no longer supposed to do the feasts why are we going
 to be doing them in
 the Millenial Kingdom? Also, if we
 consider ourselves adopted sons and daughters of
 Christ why don't we have
 to follow the House rules? 
 
 Hi Susan and welcome to TT. Jesus our High Priest is
 after another order.
 He is after the order of Melchizidec which was
 before the Aaronic
 Levitical priesthood and is eternal.  Where in
 scripture do you get the
 term House rules? Are you culturaly Jewish also?
 
 Following the Law is not a thing that we do to earn
 our salvation! We
 follow God's Law because we love him and want to
 obey him. John 14:15- If
 you love Me, you will obey my commandments. 
 
 jt: Yes but now on the other side of the cross we
 are as Paul who says in
 1 Cor 9:21 Being not without the law to God but
 under the law of Christ
 - which we can go into later if you wish.
 
 Jesus quotes the Law all the time. Also, John 15:
 9-11- Just as the
 Father has loved Me, I have also loved you ; abide
 in my love. If you
 keep my commandments, you will abide in My love;just
 as I have kept My
 Father's commands and abide in
 His love. These things I have spoken to you so that
 My joy may be in you,
 and that your joy may be complete.
 
 jt: And what are Jesus' Commandments?
 
 Knowing and believing Moses and the Prophets is a
 must. Luke 16: 27-31:
 When the rich man asked to have someone  warn his
 brothers to believe,
 Jesus told him that they had Moses and the Prophets
 and that his brother
 should hear them. v. 31- But he said to him, If
 they do not listen to
 Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded
 even if someone rises
 from the dead.
 
 jt: Yes I'm familiar with that parable but now we
 have someone greater
 than Moses; we have the prophet promised in
 Deuteronomy 18:18,19 and it
 is His words we must hear..
 
 John 5:46-47- For if you believed Moses, you would
 believe Me, for he
 wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his
 writings, how will you
 believe My words?
 
 jt: We need to understand this in balance and in
 context. Jesus was
 speaking to people born under the law

Re: [TruthTalk] 613 Commands