I'm fortunate in that I haven't had to do this yet. However, if I did, I would
probably do it all in SQL via a stored procedure.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of McClure, Don
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:23 AM
To:
Make sure IIS isn't using that port either. It shouldn't by default, but if
you didn't set up IIS I would check it.
Also, if you think something else may be using port 8080 (which I can't tell
from your email), the easiest way to check is by running netstat -b from a
command prompt, and
I have in the past, but I found a good full-time job that pays well, so
I took it. It's easier to deal with in my situation with a family now.
When it was just me, or just my wife and I, we could travel, I could
work until 2:00am and go in at 6:00am the next day, and we were ok
taking more
Here are a few more:
* Talk to vendors that have other software and services that may
be useful for your implementation.
* See demos of new products.
* Get answers to technical questions from other Remedy
developers/administrators and the engineers from BMC.
*
I'm a big fan of Joomla (http://www.joomla.org/), although it's got lots
of functionality in addition to just blogs. It requires PHP and MySQL
and I've gotten it working on both Linux (Apache) and Windows (IIS),
although Linux and Apache are the easiest.
On another email, you mentioned that
I don't mean to rain on everyone's parade, but I can't recommend
Oklahoma City at all. I know everyone has different standards and
opinions, but I think it would only appeal to a certain subset of
people. Here are a few things that I didn't like about it:
There are more churches than bars by a
As long as they don't plan on making Duke Nukem Forever* based on the
ARS platform, we'll be ok.
* Duke Nukem Forever is a sequel to a popular video game that has been
promised to be released for over ten years, and each year the company
issues a press release stating that it is going to be
It's not a good strategy, but here's what we do. We only work on a
certain number of things before moving them into production. Once the
project is complete, we restore the backup of production to our other
servers, then start on whatever is next.
From: Action Request System discussion
The shift you mention from ARS development to ITSM administration is definitely
real, and I’ve seen many conversations over the past year or so about this on
the ARSList and in other places. This is a deliberate shift on the part of
BMC, because 1) it makes more money for them both in software
I think this is perhaps closer to what you want, but I can't run it
because it references fields that are not there. A lot of what you did
may be valid (such as using double quotes) but I've not seen it used
that way so I just converted it to look in a way that I am more
comfortable with. Try
Personally, I think it would be painful to have a menu like that to
begin with. Add more items to it and try clicking around it. You'll
see that it's difficult to navigate, especially when you get submenus
with larger amounts of items. People will try to click something then
it might disappear
There's a guy on my Remedy team here named Jesus, but I don't know that
he'd want to go work at BMC.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Cook
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 10:31 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: OT--Need Remedy
Since nobody else has responded, I'll just go ahead and tell you. I
have good news and bad news.
The good news is that you don't have to create two new staging forms.
The bad news is that you probably still have to create at least one
regular form where both have escalations writing data
We've run into this as well, and customized the menus to fix it. They may
have corrected it in a patch, but if so I haven't seen it.
On a side note, you'll notice that the three groups of fields you mentioned
appear to have been developed by different people with different standards.
That
It makes a lot of sense to require OOB knowledge for a consultant
position. My first exposure to ITSM 7 came with exposure to prior
versions of ITSM as well as about ten years of ARS development
experience. It was still a beast to work with, and there are lots of
gotchas that you wouldn't
I agree with both of you as well. With ARS7, I spent perhaps a day
playing with some of the new features until I figured them out well
enough to use them. Things haven't changed that radically with ARS.
As far as the job requirement posted here that was over 1050 words long,
I do believe that
I love a good rant against BMC Support as much as the next person, but
I'd like to see your problem resolved too.
Can you give us more information that might help determine what the
problem is? To start, are you using the Drill Down on the Table Field,
or are you trying to open that record with
and restored and is still exhibiting the same
behavior.
-Paul
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:15 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Midtier Issues Turn Into Gross BMC
I have used it as well, and it worked fine with version 6.3 of ARS. However,
prior versions did have problems (although it could have been an older Source
Safe) where you would exit the Admin Tool where things are checked out to you,
then when you go back in they are still checked out but not
We've been in production about a year now, and I've decided to start
cleaning up the Product Categorizations (we made the mistake of
importing them from the DSL in addition to our own.) So this morning I
decided to write a quick and dirty SQL statement doing a union between
all the modules we use
That is the way I did it, including defaulting some NULL fields that
Remedy requires. I have an escalation that pulls the AD data (via a
vendor form) into a staging table, which then uses filters to do
validations and auto-population of some data, then if it passes all the
validations, passes it
Tadeu,
I don't think it's a matter of what the system allows, but what is best
practices. There is no single right answer. You have to consider how
many records are in the table, what the most common searches will be,
etc. It's something that you need to work with a DBA on. They can run
SQL
Part of the problem is that there are no good answers to your questions.
By default, we put things in the BMC_ComputerSystem class, unless it
fits in somewhere else. So a Blackberry technically is a computer, just
a tiny one. So is a calculator.
Stuff that doesn't have a class and isn't
Actually, it’s not that difficult to map your Product Categories to where they
are useful for Asset Management, CMDB, and the rest of ITSM. From what I’ve
seen with the CMDB and categorizations, it’s best to follow the K.I.S.S.
method. I made a new class in CMDB 1 that ended up being a huge
When I said is that there are no good answers, I should have qualified
that. There are no good answers if you want a simple, broad,
overreaching solution. Even with ITIL as a framework, you have to come
up with your own answers to the questions. I see ITIL as almost a
philosophy based around
You know, you could always go to your management and tell them that the
I.T. in ITSM and ITIL stands for Information Technology, and
that there may be bigger risks involved in trying to make the ITSM suite
have all the functionality they need for non-I.T. related things.
Remedy is great for
Thad,
That may be the case, but I wonder if some of those menus being
referenced are changed by Active Links before you use them, or if they
are back end forms that may not necessarily need the menus. It's still
really bad, but I haven't seen any problems with things like building
SLMs for
Actually Lisa, I think Jase will find what you're suggesting under
Select Status Values on the Overview Console instead. That is where
the Overview Console's status preferences are stored. Why it isn't in
the same place as all the other modules doesn't make much sense to me.
Shawn Pierson
I apologize in advance for not having all the details, but we did this
at a company I used to work for. What you want to do is look through
the Work Log field and find a special character that occurs somewhere
around the date field. I wish I could remember what it was, because I
think it was
I would add that not only do most organizations not hire someone as only
a do as you are told resource, if you adopt that mindset you can get
into a lot of trouble. I've been on site at places where people did
exactly what management told them to do, which was flawed, then the
managers became
Scott,
You are correct, but BMC sales folks often tell you that you either
shouldn't customize or that there is no need to. They also like to push
for any customizations, even small cosmetic ones, being something you
should hire BMC Professional Services to do.
On the other hand, BMC
Good morning all,
I've been presented with a question that should seem straight forward,
but I don't have a good answer for it.
We are currently shifting our office and cubicle locations to make room
for a bunch of new people, so our I.T. department are in the middle of
large scale moves. As a
We automatically assign it to the Helpdesk Group (actually Service Desk
if you want to be completely ITIL.) The reason being that ITSM is very
locked down, and people who the ticket are not assigned to can't edit
it. As a result, you might want the group people go to for help with
the
According to what I’ve been told, the best practice is to not assign anything
to a person as an individual until there is a need for a specific person to be
involved. So in the case of an Incident being created by the someone on the
Service Desk, we assign it to that individual. When it’s
You need to get your sales people involved. I would think that many
other companies/government agencies are in the same boat you are, and
would have an alternative. If your organization alone is big enough,
they can complain enough to the sales people to force BMC to do
something. I'm sure BMC
Kelly,
It's great that BMC is offering this. However, when I tried running it,
it didn't give me an option of what software I have that I want to mail
in or not. I saw that there was an AppScan.exe file and this one may
be useful for that, but it might be good for BMC to update the
instructions
for Single-Sign On
Dear Shawn,
Have you added the midtier ip address to the areasso.cfg file in the
AR Server/conf folder?
Regards,
Roney Varghese
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 28, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Thanks Jarl,
That got me much further, and I can see
I think the key you hit upon is the word dialog. It is possible that
the Open Window action on the active link is set to something other than
Dialog and has a Target Location of New, in which case it just opens
a new window with both remaining editable.
From: Action Request System discussion
for Single-Sign On
Turn on ur plugin logs(fine) and let me know what auth error u see in
there?
Regards,
Roney Varghese
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I added the mid tier ip address as well as 127.0.0.1 just in case.
-Original
Varghese
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: IIS remoteuser for Single-Sign On
Turn on ur plugin logs(fine) and let me know what auth error u see in
there?
Regards,
Roney Varghese
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED
Davin,
You gave me some ideas, although I still haven't resolved the issue.
Currently, we are authenticating against AD for the username and
passwords. We have multiple ways people can log into the system, and we
want the User Tool to allow people to authenticate with their domain
password,
It depends how much you need to change. For what I've done, notepad,
vi, emacs, or wordpad are sufficient. My concern with editing jsp pages
in some of the tools like FrontPage is that it could potentially modify
things that shouldn't be changed.
From: Action Request System discussion
Try deleting the cache on your browser too.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Opela (Corporate)
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:50 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Menu in Mid-Tier acting differently than in WUT
**
I got a response from BMC on my similar issue to upgrade to 7.1.0 patch
2 for the Mid Tier. I don't know if it would resolve everyone's issues,
but it may be worth a try.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cordova, Fred
Sent: Friday,
Good afternoon,
I'm trying to set up single sign on for the mid tier and have almost
everything working. The one thing that still seems to be a problem is
getting IIS to pass the authenticated user to Jakarta. When I try to
log into Remedy, I get the following in my tomcat logs:
, Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
**
Good afternoon,
I'm trying to set up single sign on for the mid tier and have almost
everything working. The one thing that still seems to be a problem is
getting IIS to pass the authenticated user to Jakarta. When I try to log
into Remedy, I get
Scott,
I just opened a ticket with BMC Support today on this exact same error.
However, we are getting it a different way by going through Change
Management, so it probably has a different cause.
We are on Patch 6 of the Mid Tier, which are you on when encountering
this?
Shawn Pierson
I doubt it's Groupwise itself that is the problem, but rather some
anti-spam rules or something else blocking it. This sounds like an
issue the email administrators on both sides should be involved with and
testing because it's most likely outside the realm of Remedy.
From: Action Request
)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:32 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: One company not able to recieve emails
I doubt it's Groupwise itself that is the problem, but rather some
anti-spam rules or something else blocking it. This sounds like
Thank you for posting this response. I was very close to responding
with Try a ladder or something equally...unhelpful.
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sanford, Claire
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:14 AM
I use a default header and footer on my ARS-based emails. In the
header, you need to identify it as HTML, then you can use HTML
formatting in your email, including html IMG tags.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kemes, Lisa
Sent:
I think all the suggestions people are offering are correct. However,
one key point you need to find out before proceeding is exactly what
they want to integrate to with Remedy. While most of the answers here
have been focused on ITSM, there are a lot of home-grown Remedy helpdesk
applications
I don't really want to start a flame war about BMC Support, but I have a
question about RFEs.
I recently submitted an Issue to BMC to request an enhancement to Change
Management. It's a pretty straight forward request (I asked for the
Work Info to be able to be updated on Closed Change Requests)
What is it you hate about the messages? If it's the text of the
message, you can create them in the AR System Message Catalog form,
and turn on localization on your AR server so they show up. It's
designed to be able to localize the messages for international systems,
but I've used it in the
I've been coming up with a list, but I still don't like it. I'm
thinking it might be easier to do noun verb noun for these items so the
menus are smaller. This is my latest working copy in CSV format.
Shawn Pierson
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion
That isn't complete enough for ITSM 7.0 though. There are some tables
(I don't have a complete list off the top of my head) that contain
server references too. For example, one is the CAI Application Registry
form which has the server name for each app installed. What I've done
is develop a
Something that will be an issue for you is both complexity and the fact that
you can configure the system quite a bit. If you have enough time to
demonstrate all of the applications, you should start with two Incidents on the
same issue, which then you relate to a Problem ticket, which
Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 2:58 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: RKM 7.2 - Anyone integrated it with ITSM?
I disagree with the easy to install part. I'm working on it now, and
BMC Support
Good afternoon all,
I'm working with RKM 7.2, and found a problem that I'm not sure how to
get around. I integrated it with Remedy, and am trying to relate things
to Incidents. Everything works fine, except when I try to select a Tier
3 Product Category. For Tier 1 I select Software and Tier 2
In my case, I was able to do all of this with Filters, but the
difference is that I have to deal only with U.S.-based numbers. The
first filter to execute strips out all characters, and the second filter
to execute sets the length of the remaining numerical data, then based
on how many numbers I
I disagree with the easy to install part. I'm working on it now, and
BMC Support is stumped. The files are there and the /rkm directory
shows up in Tomcat, but it won't start, and doesn't give any errors
explaining what is wrong.
It is probably easy to install in certain conditions, but in my
What I've had to do in the past in a similar situation is to have the
view form referencing a view on my DB that was using a linked server.
If you get that part, you can at least see the data.
However, if you have issues modifying or submitting the data,
unfortunately the next best solution is
This is what we did last summer and ran into no problems with the
ARSystem database.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tricky maybe
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:18 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: SQL 2000 database to SQL 2005
David,
They should put an active link on the Product Name field to do a
wildcard search. If you try to hit the dropdown, it takes something
like three minutes for anything to show up, then you have to scroll
through a big list. That way if you type in Incident in the field you
can get a
Michael,
Just to get it out of the way, I think the Approval Engine is one of the worst
products ever made on Remedy. There are many technical and design flaws in it.
I believe that is probably why BMC doesn't really support it.
To answer question #1, depending on your goals, you have to set
If you do a search on the ARSList archives, there was a good description
of how to do this. I don't have the person's name that posted it to be
able to give them credit (sorry), but here is the text I saved off with
instructions on how to add a field to incident:
1.) Add the field Incident
If you just need to know the name and what views it is in, I would just
run something like this in SQL:
select
f.fieldid,
f.fieldname,
s.[name] as formname,
v.vuiname as viewname
from field f
inner join arschema s
on s.schemaid = f.schemaid
inner join vui v
on
Good morning all,
I'm curious if anyone is using Asset Management to track devices like
Blackberries. If so, what Class are you storing them in, and how do you
track the phone number?
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
Private and confidential as detailed here:
..
Joe
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:17 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Asset Management and Blackberries
Good morning all,
I'm running into a strange problem and wonder if any of you have run
into it and have a solution. I'm trying to create an approval phase
that occurs between two Status Reason fields. What happens is that when
testing that Approval Phase, I push the Change ticket into the
A lot of these questions are good, but I'm wondering if they are the
right ones given the current climate of BMC and the direction Remedy is
going in. For example, asking someone development questions, such as
filter phasing, assumes that they are going to be a Remedy Developer.
If I were hiring
The easiest thing to do is to completely hide the OOtB table field and
replace it with one that has more useful data. The majority of the
fields on the approval console are not that useful, so I replaced it
entirely.
Of course, if you use SRM or any other applications that have approvals,
you
Carey,
I think that ideally, smaller businesses that want to use ARS (which BMC
doesn't market aggressively enough) should pursue other options. There
are vendors, some that post on here, that provide other ITSM suites that
are cheaper, simpler, and are probably just as good if not better than
In New Zealand it is.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Palmer
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:39 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Friday Humor: Google and Chuck Norris.. (Corrected)
** Is it Friday
On Thu,
Good morning all,
I'm trying out some things with web services and ARS, and I'm curious if
there is a way to take binary output from a web service and save it as
an attachment on a form. If you have a solution, let me know.
Thanks,
Shawn Pierson
Private and confidential as detailed here:
on that form.
Alfredo
- Original Message
From: Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:12:45 AM
Subject: ITSM Overview Console Error
**
Good morning everyone,
This morning, my users suddenly started getting an error when they try to use
the arplugin.exe it was restarted and the issues went
away.
Thanks
Peter Lammey
ESPN MIT Technical Services Applications Management
860-766-4761
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Tuesday
If you're using ITSM, you should just use the People form to accomplish
this.
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mayfield, Andy L.
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 8:36 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: User Form
We've tried it for development, and it is too slow, even on a very
powerful machine with no other active VMs on it.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Pataray
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:23 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject:
There are two things I do that seem to help quite a bit.
1) Keep your dev server in Development Cache Mode and when you
make changes to production, set it to that mode temporarily until you
are finished with your changes.
2) This is probably controversial and I don't like it either,
David,
This is a little off topic, but I'd like to make a suggestion for you to
pass along to BMC's documentation people. Naming a file 65712.pdf is
not a good indication of what that file is about or what it is used for.
They need to adopt a more meaningful naming convention to make it easier
Good morning folks,
It looks like a former colleague made some changes I was not aware of
that are causing problems, and as a result, I'd like to get a clean set
of data from the Approval Process Configuration form in ITSM 7. I'm
on 7.0.3 patch 6, but I don't think that part makes a difference.
Good morning all,
I'm looking at developing some Advanced Interface forms for SRM, and was
wondering if anyone has a set of best practices or any tips that might
be good to keep in mind. I have a basic understanding of how SRM works,
and built one Advanced Interface form that works to create
We've looked into it, but since it uses a plugin rather than actual
Remedy workflow, we decided against trying anything with it. I'd also
be interested in seeing if anyone has come up with a good way to do it.
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
Good morning all,
After installing Patch 6 of ITSM 7, we started getting some strange
emails coming out of the system. For example, if we have a Change
Request that has two Approvers, they get notified, as do a handful of
other people that are not related to the Change Request in any way.
There
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ITSM 7.0 Phantom Approval Emails
** Could be alternate new sig notifications. Turn on and look at the
approval logs, it will tell you how it is finding them.
Axton Grams
On Jan 4, 2008 8:24 AM, Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
Has anyone seen a problem where Site/Company relationships disappear in
ITSM 7.0.1? We are on patch 5, but had this problem in patch 4 too.
Since the relationships are just totally disappearing, I can't really
tell what is going on. I may build some workflow to trigger on delete
to email me
anything. Thanks!
Greg
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Pierson, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ITSM 7 Site/Company Relationships Disappear
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:36:41 -0600
**
Has anyone seen a problem where Site/Company relationships disappear in ITSM
Theoretically you can do this, but I haven't tried yet. You need to
look into the SLM documentation and see how to set up a new form to be
tied in with SLM and configure that. You'll also probably need to
customize the Task form to do it right.
Shawn Pierson
From: Action Request System
I agree that this is needed, but think that rather than being a pure
oversight on BMC's part, they included it as part of a future release
that includes the functionality you mentioned.
Shawn Pierson
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL
Claire,
What functionality are you looking for? While I can't give you access
to a server, I can tell you that the portion I worked with isn't very
good. There is no email functionality for paging, for example, so you
have no option other than something like Telalert if you want to use it.
What
Good morning folks,
I've been successfully using the AREA and ARDBC plugins on Remedy for a
while now, but we also own the BMC Identity Management suite. We've
been looking into getting rid of the front end of that so we can put it
in Remedy, and BMC has provided a plugin to the ESS module.
Every time this has happened to me, it has been because they don't have
the MSDTC service running on the SQL Server, specifically. I would have
the DBAs check that and if it's not running, turn it on.
Shawn Pierson
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
I don't know precisely what the problem is based off of what you have
said, but I would suggest seeing what type of column it is. I seem to
remember there being limitations on what types of fields Remedy can read
via view forms. While this shouldn't affect varchar, int, etc. it could
prevent you
I just went in to test this using a text-transform CSS tag and it
doesn't seem to work right. While I can make the text appear lowercase
in the form, if I type uppercase when I enter the login name it displays
it in lowercase but passes the uppercase value to the Remedy system.
-Original
I think you're making it more difficult than it needs to be. Just build
an interface using Filters and Active Links like you would between any
other Remedy forms.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kern, Robert SBA
Sent: Friday, October
Good morning folks,
This isn't a question to get help per se, but rather just to start a
discussion. I recently started using Office 2007 at work and started
looking at one of the new applications - Infopath. It is a form
development tool that you can use to connect to databases, web services,
Betina is referring to an integration for call centers where as someone
calls into the help desk, the caller id information is passed into
Remedy so the technician doesn't have to ask the user who they are and
key in any Requestor information.
-Original Message-
From:
Mark,
It sounds like you need to modify your Active Link Run Process
Directory. If you go into the Admin tool and look at the Server
Information on the File menu, and go to the Advanced tab, it will be
listed there. Just keep in mind that changing it affects all the items
that you run via Run
Actually, I would suggest not using the DSL at all. There is a lot of
software in there that doesn't make sense to be on a business system,
and a lot left out that should be in there.
For example, I'm unable to find TOAD, the third-party Oracle database
query tool, but I'm able to find three
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