Would it be a silly idea to create the mailing list
of the united Jakarta/XML/WS and related projects?
What makes that a grouping a community other than a common interest by most
in the Java platform? If people don't have common interests, there is
little about which to talk. Where there are
Can anyone recommend a good 802.11g broadband sharing device that doesn't
timeout NAT sessions after 15 min or so? I tested D-LINK, SMC, Belkin, and
a whole bunch of other 802.11b systems over the winter, and only the Linksys
didn't have a problem (e.g., if you leave an SSH session idle while
Ahhh. Now, there are no *ASF members* in Japan (Maybe, this goes for
other Asian countries), so the things can be easily inconsistent.
There are other ASF Committers in Japan. Lief Mortenson, for example, the
author of the Java Wrapper and frequent Avalon contributor.
I assume that you are
Dion - I think we are going to have to get a suite and shift you
up to marketing!
Is Dion staying that long? Cool. I just knew that he'd be rooming with us
at the Software Summit conference at the end of October.
--- Noel
Is Dion staying [for ApacheCon]? Cool. I just knew that he'd
be rooming with us at the Software Summit conference at the
end of October.
So I think you should double your budget ...
My budget? Dion and I are just friends going back for many years. It all
started when his company
David,
... what if some other big player were to
acquire or merge with us? What if only one best-of-breed
browser could run embedded plug-ins, applets, ActiveX
controls, or anything like them, and it wasn't IE? How
competitive would the other
See: http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/09/03/HNmicrosoftsloss_1.html
With respect to the mess of software patents, here is an example where
initially most people laughed, Ha ha, they fed Microsoft!, until it
slowly began to dawn on people that this is a huge problem.
For example, consider
-Original Message-
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Whatever text we adopted will need to be approved, anyhow, but do you
want
to add anything to the effect that the Apache Software Foundation
develops
software based upon Open Standards and promotes inter
If I remember correctly, Brian modified the settings of each
announce(ments)@tlp.apache.org mailing lists to forward to
announce@apache.org automatically... Right!?
It was discussed, but I don't believe that it was effected. Brian had some
concerns. See the community@ archives.
---
I am in favor of opposing software patents (they aren not working out great
in the USA), but we should not disadvantage our users. If we post anything,
as we did regarding the JCP, it should not prevent our users from easily
using the site. People count on the ASF, and while we may want them to
Whatever text we adopted will need to be approved, anyhow, but do you want
to add anything to the effect that the Apache Software Foundation develops
software based upon Open Standards and promotes inter-operability, both of
which would be threatened by software patents, and therefore the ASF is
http://cvs.apache.org/~gianugo/apache-protest.html
Page Closed - Important Notice
this site - this site's
--- Noel
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Is having the real home page one click or 60-seconds away for one day
really something that bugs the Apache userbase a lot?
No. I think what you did was fine in that regard, and have already
commented on it. We are apparently still dealing with mail-lag. :-)
I know that patents will be a
I predict that it will be really ugly. Fortunately, there are Open
Source friendly companies like IBM, so with their patronage, Open
Source can succeed. Should they turn face, ugly will be an
understatement.
Agreed, but did you know: [that IBM is the worlds most prolific patenter]
Yes.
(b) subscribe each [EMAIL PROTECTED] to announce@apache.org
Whoa whoa whoa. b) is backwards - from the other discussions on this, you
wanted to subscribe announce@apache.org to each [EMAIL PROTECTED],
not the other way around.
I think you're saying what I meant. announce@apache.org is
Of course, I never really clarified this, which might have been part
of the problem. I just hoped people would figure out by example.
Uh huh ... LOL
--- Noel
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional
Considering how many members of the Apache Community just take the smooth
operation of the infrastructure for granted, I think that people like Ask,
Brian, Cliff, Greg, Justin, Manoj, Pier, Sander, Thom, et al, deserve credit
for all of the things that they do which allow the rest of us to take
Personally, I think that announce@apache.org is the correct place for a
monthly ASF newsletter. However, I do agree with your comments related to
the terra-intl.com references. The following ought to have been removed:
My main job is marketing, business development and IT consulting [4].
If the purpose is to come up with a common XML schema (for the sake of
discussion) and common tools, I don't see it as being a TLP. Each project
will need to have its own resources using the common format and tools.
Does a DTD/schema and a set of common language bindings/utility libraries
I was thinking on the l10n making doc commits and properties
commits, ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the
source document (in the original project cvs) and the translated
documents (???).
That would be possible if they were invited to have Commit access to a
project's CVS,
Joerg Pietschmann:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I think that bringing together a group of volunteers who are not
coders,
and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its
documentation, but who are able to provide translations would be great,
but
that's not a project.
I
How's about Apache Commons?
FWIW, we have some code in James that might be useful for in this area.
Yes, the James code is written in Java, but the real offering is the XML
resource format, and the operations.
--- Noel
Stefano Mazzocchi applauded:
on 7/10/03 4:21 PM Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
clip/
So an apache-wide newsletter would be great. And posting it to apache
wide
announce, or even xposting it to all announce mailing list - sure. I'd
love that. Having it on the web is nice for archival too -
you can't know who are the new committers without taking
snapshots of /etc/passwd or /home/cvs/CVSROOT/avail
AFAICS, committer uids in /etc/passwd started at a particular value, and
monotonically increment for each new user, so couldn't he use that as an
indicator?
--- Noel
I don't think community@ is a valid place for news of a newsletter
anyway.
Perhaps announce@ for those who are interested.
the jakarta newsletter are verging on OT for community@ as well.
Perhaps, but it seems to me that this discussion has been about taking the
Jakarta Newsletter and
Danny,
As I said to you in the broader context, I wasn't saying that community@ is
the right place; just that I think it is hard to call it off-topic if it
covers the whole community.
Actually, announce@ was one of the places I'd suggested in an earlier
message. announce@ has almost no traffic,
But with the obvious caveat that an ASF wide newsletter might become quite
big if people write major dissertations, I'd rather see nice concise
precis
of recent activity, and links to more detail text where relevant, I'm more
likely to read it all that way.
Let's see what happens. :-) And
Why not simply make it the Apache Newsletter, add the projects that
are
not there yet, and publish it here on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1
If we list up all the projects in ASF and make Apache-newsletter,
I am (very) afraid it will be too big for ezmlm :-)
I don't believe that the newsletter
What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group
that would bring to the attention of [that] they should infact
use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.
If you want to raise awareness of such an Apache wide fact, don't
do it in a java only place like Jakarta.
An
Is this list archived?
There are archives at MARC and gmane.org
And the ASF archives site: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/
After all the 'eyebrowse down' mails, coming up on infrastructure
every now and then, I didn't even think about it ;-)
Those are usually related to a list moving.
and the stats he is presumaby referring to at:
- http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/archives/001008.html
- http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/archives/001009.html
I'd be curious to see commit stats. Total commits per-project, avg commits
per-release, avg commits per committer, that sort of
I admit that doing that is not my highest priority right now. We've
got a lot of nice new contributions that need to be merged.
Noel, I'm not suggesting that you do do it, certainly not that
you do it soon either, chill out man!
LOL Don't worry. It hadn't even occured to me to take it
Well, all decent OSes... You won't find fork in stupid WindoSH...
According to market researcher OneStat.com, Windows now controls 97.46
percent of the global desktop operating system market, compared to just 1.43
percent for Apple Macintosh and 0.26 percent for Linux.
Do you have statistics on
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223
I am a priori discouraged because I don't see IBM represented. To have
this
JSR without participation from the BSF folks seems wrong. I don't know if
this is payback for Eclipse and the WS-I, an oversight, or what.
Lack of warm bodies with the right
Steve and Kenny,
There is a balance. Not all of Pier's issues may apply, but many of the
important ones do.
Frankly, I don't want to run anything at root that can avoid it. That is
just good practice.
Consider Vincenzo's anti-spam matcher. Would you want that to run as root?
I am not
I don't see Java as glue because it portrays integration with
non-Java as anathema.
It favors portability, which means that the abstractions have to be
portable. No reason why you can't have glue classes using JNI to call
things, but I would expect whatever is part of a standard distribution
[WORA] is the reason why we basically we have mod_* where * is any
programming language, but not mod_java
for apache 2.0, a JNI-based mod_java is perfectly valid
architecturarely, but nobody works on it
Well, there seems to be a JNI (in-process) worker on some platforms, but
personally I
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223
At the end, I will not be surprised if this turns out to be yet another
JSP-like political compromise between vendors, with no technological
value associated to it.
I am a priori discouraged because I don't see IBM represented. To have this
JSR
I am a priori discouraged because I don't see IBM represented. To have
this
JSR without participation from the BSF folks seems wrong. I don't know
if
this is payback for Eclipse and the WS-I, an oversight, or what.
BSF is Apache now, not so ?
Politics and memories. Hopefully this isn't
[Reply in multiple pieces based on sub-topic]
A problem with multiple JVM instances is the lack of sharing between
multiple instances.
on some operating systems, different JVMs share as much as 80% of
their memory.
I would like to see the JVM/JIT generate and share common class
code
[Reply in multiple, shorter, pieces based on sub-topic]
However, having something like httpd front-end lots of backend JVMs on
multiple machines is nice.
Hey, I know that. I was one of the designers of mod_jserv, you know? ;-)
Let me think ... mod_jserv ... would that be the thing I
[Reply in multiple pieces based on sub-topic]
A few months ago, I had a very interesting conversation with Pier on
JAMES.
Thanks for the background. I'd heard some of it from Serge over time. And
the servlet topic gets brought up from time to time by people who see the
obvious similarities,
[Moving from infrastructure@ and Jakarta [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Danny,
I agree with what you said. And I didn't suggest taking content away from
any Community. That was someone else's reaction to my observation. My
interest is to have shared content. If Jakarta is THE place for us all to
put
There's the committers module. Every committer has access to this one.
I know. It isn't part of the site deployment, but I suppose that it could
be used that way, perhaps under the docs/ directory (for example), with a
small change to the update commands. Also, the Committers module is, AIUI,
Sander,
You said, Hang on a minute. Why does everyone need commit access to this
one? All ASF members have commit access to it. I had asked, What would
happen if we had an Incubator module open to all ASF Committers? Would that
lower the barrier and increase reuse?
Are you referring to ASF
Glen,
The reason why it hasn't been done is simple... because no one
has actually stepped up to find all the redundant information
and send patches to the various projects to fix it up. CVS
access isn't the problem. Finding someone with the itch, time
and motivation is.
That is the answer
I don't see the issue as people not wanting to write documentation,
just individuals taking the path of least resistance.
I agree.
Honestly, I'm curious as to how much authority the individual PMCs
should be exercising to define these processes. Even a process as
simple as creating an
I'm tired of having someone propose a new committer because he
or she thinks that the patch submission process is too difficult.
In my case, I'm talking about existing Committers. *If* CVS commit rights
for Committers are widely perceived to be a barrier, then perhaps there
ought to be a place
What would be helpful is if we can identify which tools
are currently used
The CVS command line over SSH, obviously. TortoiseCVS. WinCVS. We could
all survey our projects, or put up a Wiki page to collect what people are
actively using.
--- Noel
So we get James _and_ Subversion brought into production for the ASF on
the same day? ;-)
Subversion is closer to deployment within the ASF than James. The primary
(e-mail) need with the ASF is for a mailing list manager. That is a weak
area right now for James, but one that is actively being
Moving and re-naming files in an ssh terminal session is not
crazily graphical nor easy enough for a 4 year old, but I bet
there are enough people in Apache who can do it without
sweating that it is, IMO, a poor excuse for throwing away
useful information.
Bah.
ObPlug
Use Subversion.
Not to pick on Noel, but he is driven to get James to be the mail server
the ASF uses, working tirelessly to improve features and scalability.
If he was solely motivated by altruism, he might get tired and realize
the current mail system already handles Apache's needs.
LOL No, being capable
I don't know whether this was a symptom, a remedy, or a cause. Isn't the
fact these tags needed to be removed some telltale? I'm just wondering,
since you seem to advocate this as a good community pattern.
I fully admit that I suggested it after seeing what was going on in Avalon,
and no one
Changes made to the Cocoon wiki are mailed to the cocoon-docs mailing
list, so inappropriate changes are spotted much more quickly. Perhaps
a similar setup could be adopted for the Apache wiki?
The ASF wiki has that ability, with two issues:
- The Wiki is ASF-wide, and almost no one wants to
Fixed. Someone beat me to it by a few minutes, and then I fixed up the
formatting. If you should see something like this again, the easy thing is
to view the most recent good version, click to edit, and then just save.
this opens the question of leaving the door open with no lock really
works
this opens the question of leaving the door open with no lock really
works in the long run or if we must live with wiki terrorists.
The wiki theory is that it is so easy to repair vandalism that the
immature
cretins basically lose interest in their juvenile activities. For more
The Cocoon Wiki has been the victim of exactly the same disgusting
defacement, approximately at the same moment I guess. *sigh*
The discussion of what to do about it is over on infrastructure. I'm fairly
sure from prior discussions that you are subscribed there, but just in case
...
http://www.freewebs.com/sepero/index.html
Of course LSD hurts OpenSource! People on LSD have impaired judgment and
are prone to flights of fancy, including shared utopian faux philosophies.
How could anyone argue that LSD doesn't hurt OpenSource?
Oh? *B*SD? Sorry! Nevermind.
---
I don't suppose anyone caught Stallman's response in the 3/24 issue of
Business Week, to the Linux article published on 3/3?
He said the same thing to Leo Laporte last Fall. In the same interview, he
added that songs could not be owned because they are creative acts like
programs, althought
FWIW, I presented a developer's overview of the Jakarta technologies that
was given at the Colorado Software Summit (www.softwaresummit.com) last
year. My Spanish is pretty poor these days, and my Portuguese is
non-existent, but I would be willing to share my presentation material with
someone,
I *hate* bugzilla a lot.
What is the latest news on Scarab?
--- Noel
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Rich,
What is the rationale for the full text in each and every file?
ASF Board directive, as it was told to me. I wasn't privy to the decision
making process, but I assume that a determination was made that:
/* Copyright (C) The Apache Software Foundation. All rights reserved.
*
* This
i said that, and i was at least partly wrong. see the attached
message from roy.
Translation: I did the right thing for ASL v1.1, but only for policy
reasons?
--- Noel
-
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For
Dion,
Is there a reason why a project's repository URI cannot be orthogonal to
whatever file system naming convention is adopted for downloadable parts? I
think that it has to be orthogonal if we are to federate with other
repositories without having to incorporate them by value. And it
Nick,
Two problems here
* The uri to find a needed jar.
* How to store the jar on the local filesystem
Does the URI (request) and descriptor (response) solution I proposed not
address those goals? That approach decoupled the naming systems.
--- Noel
i think that maybe organization / project would be better that
/project/[subproject/..].
More stable, less fragile. Still provides for qualified the naming space,
and is more in keeping with how we've been doing package naming.
I don't know if it needs to be a directory hierarchy, though.
I just ran into this and found that might be worth injecting into the
jar repositories discussions.
http://nbbuild.netbeans.org/scrambler.html
Yes. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned click-through
licenses on netbeans.org, and Costin seems to be aware of it as well.
Dion,
The reason for this challenge is simple: to
demonstrate the the antipathy towards other
ASF efforts is damaging not only to the ASF,
but to Maven itself.
'antipathy' == 'A strong feeling of aversion or repugnance'.
However you want to label it, Jason's harshly phrased statements
Representing Jason as all Maven developers is a leap
beyond that I can't fathom.
As I said, I would expect that his comments weren't reflecting Maven's as a
group, and I know that they don't reflect yours.
It seems you are confusing your view of Jason, which you admit is limited
to a short
Jason,
Did anyone question that you've contributed an immeasurable amount of good?
I didn't.
What happened was that you responded negatively to an aside about why not to
put Ant and Maven under a single PMC. You talked about about not being
forced to collaborate, and pulled Gump, centipede, the
Nick,
As long as you want to start with first principles ...
If we have a layout and metadata we agree on - any tool could work.
If it is an ant task or a perl program or we just rsync - it doesn't
matter.
A somewhat standard layout is the important part.
a catalog.xml or whatever uptodate.
--
Nick Chalko
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 14:46
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [proposal] daedalus jar repository (was: primary
distribution location)
Nick,
As long
Why not just protocol://repository-path/artifact-name, where artifact
name is as qualified as necessary, and is permanent? The project name,
sub-project relationships, versioning, etc., could all be handled by the
descriptor contents.
For the smart repository approach, if you want to add
Just in case it would be of help to any other project(s), here is a link to
a message I posted earlier tonight to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The message mentions
the
automated process by which I updated every Java file in James to have the
full ASF License instead of a short form of the license that had
Not sure what you mean by lead ( do you propose a new PMC with Dion as
chair ? ). I'm +1 on Dion - however the layout and recommendations must be
decided by the normal apache community process
I meant as in chair, except that it wouldn't be a PMC, so I don't know if
the word chair would apply.
Conor,
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that Dion was refering to the
repository; rather he was commenting in response to my aside regarding Ant
and Maven:
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 09:48:42PM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Noel Bergman writes:
I like the idea of a central repository. It
Jason,
I am the one who raised the issue about Ant and Maven. I have made the
observation before. Dion said that it was the Ant PMC that was in the way.
Greg Stein replied that the Ant charter could be changed if that was the
only issue. You jumped down Greg's throat about the Board taking
I think synergy is worth aiming for; reinventing the wheel (and mainting
it) in several places is propably not worth it in the long run.
That's my core philosophy of software development.
--- Noel
-
To unsubscribe,
My proposal is that Dion Gillard be asked to chair a repository committee.
He is the most familar with the issues, he works with a lot of the Java
technologies (Tomcat, Ant, Maven, James, Jetspeed, Struts, Turbine), and
although he is a Maven fan, he is agnostic in terms of ensuring that all
build
Leo,
As you have seen from some of our exchange and Costin's comments, there are
differing views on how to make use of the repository. Costin and I seem to
be of the option that a significant portion of the value of the repository
comes from sharing and centralizing the managment of
To expand, I think ultimately all that matters is that a project be
given the space it wants in an attempt to let it flourish. If the
Maven developers want to be left entirely alone why is that a concern?
Well, I'm not entirely sure how wanting to be left alone fits into an
atmosphere of
I thought the whole reason that Ant, Avalon, Cocoon, James et al moved top
level (out of Jakarta) was to get rid of top level umbrella PMCs so that
each project has its own PMC.
James,
As I understand it, the ASF is flattening the hierarchy, but I see top-level
projects established around
All I'm getting out of these discussions is that we're
capable of having long winded foodfights about turf.
This is an important problem that needs to get solved.
I wish that I were not starting to see this in a similar vein.
With respect to the repository, and classpaths, I have proposed
James,
Do we really need to have one big community? We've fostered a tight knit
community of maven developers, even if they are not so tight with other
parts of Apache.
No, I don't believe that we need to be all one community. There is
relatively little in common between, for example, Tomcat
Costin,
I agree with pretty much all of your particulars. To summarize, if I might:
- the ASF repository shall contain ASF jars, which don't
require oversight beyond the issuing PMC.
- the ASF repository should contain shared third party
jars for which the ASF has approved their use
you get an ok on [sharing and centralizing the managment
of ASF-acceptable third party jars] from the board and/or
the infrastructure team, and consensus across the community,
and I'll be absolutely 100% behind any such plan.
I can't see how it would be acceptable to anyone without all of
all PMCs whose committers 'commit' to the repository should maintain
some oversight.
Infrastructure hasn't considered that a good model for the Wiki, and I don't
know that it would work any better for the repository. Someone needs to
take responsibility for the oversight.
I'm not suggesting
David,
Actually, when I get a lengthy e-mail, the last thing I want to do is read
it. I get enough of those, and they are likely to be shelved for when I
have time to deal with it. Sometime between now and when hell freezes over.
You want a response to your e-mail? Keep the scroll bars
David,
I agree that there should be an e-mail. But it should be short, and consist
of little more than a reference to the web site. All of this information
should be available on the web site for review and update. As that content
is enhanced, e-mail can go out to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
There are clear instructions in the jakarta web site on how to handle
cvs through ssh ...
This sort of information is scattered across the *.apache.org sites. There
are also instructions for doing it at
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#general. Oddly there is a
separate section on
the issue be reconsidered and that it be re-opened to the public.
Obvious question: what has changed since you proposed that
community@apache.org be open back in October
(http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]ms
gNo=60)? I don't believe that you want your proposal to be viewed as
One of the Three Dangers of the Fire Swamp suggested:
if you want to change this to a proposal that we create a
*new* opt-in list with no restrictions on subscription, i
think that is a different matter.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Noel
yes please! It'd be cool if something like this could run every week or
so, with summaries sent to the appropriate mailing list.
I'll run it weekly, but I am *not* subscribing to every mailing list. :-)
I'll post the files to my account, and a notice here.
Not sure why it failed to generate
Ken, can we get this on the Wiki page to protect
feeble-minded folks like me?
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Licensing
I had just finished doing that. I hope that I got them right.
--- Noel
-
To
One of the Three Dangers of the Fire Swamp suggested:
if you want to change this to a proposal that we create a
*new* opt-in list with no restrictions on subscription, i
think that is a different matter.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
No, please no
shrug I couldn't really care too much
as necessary.
-- Noel
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Nic Ferrier
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:44
To: Noel J. Bergman
Cc: Chris Burdess
Subject: Re: Classpath Licensing
Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Serge:
The Classpath
It may not be as much fun as a member map, but:
http://cvs.apache.org/~noel/sites/
The Jakarta, XML, DB and Avalon sites didn't properly generate the HTML
results, but there is some information in the text files. If there is
interest in this sort of site check, I'll try to get those working,
It will typically have import statements - something like:
import lgpl.sshlibrary.Thingy;
The import statement alone is sufficient to make the source code a
work based on the Library, which means we could distribute under the
terms of section 6. Those terms are viral and disallow
Certainly we need an official reading on
[http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/],
but Classpath is specifically licensed as GPL, the least compatible
open-source
license out there (not even a murkier LGPL).
The issues with GPL are well-known.
The Classpath author adds an addendum to allow
I can see cars in my driveway from some of the sat images. Spooky.
http://mapper.acme.com/?lat=35.708298long=-78.695515003scale=13theme=
Imagedot=Yes
ICBM, eh? Gulp.
http://mapper.acme.com/?lat=34.036864long=-80.963427scale=10theme=Imagew
idth=3height=2dot=Yes
Thank G-d for trees. :-)
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