This is not normal. I know of no normal situation where you would lose your AM
reception. Sounds like the installer
is tuned out. Complain to Best Buy management ASAP.
Fred Townsend
Charles Grasso wrote:
Hello all,
Well Xmas has come and gone and I got a nice new car stereo
for
Some cars do this? Nonsense! As you of course know.
1. It may be that your windshield antenna will not work with the particular
model radio you got, which would only mean drilling a small hole and
installing a whip. You should be able to find this out by calling the
manufacturer and asking.
I have it from a message on the r...@contesting.com list that Phillips bulbs
produce less RF noise than others.
I can't vouch for that, however.
Cortland
(What I write here is mine alone.
My employer does not
Concur, agree or else endorse
These words, their tone, or thought.)
Rich Nute wrote:
The answer is in the original posting, the new lamp saves energy. Which
translates into saving the planet. That trumps all, these days.
--
From: geor...@lexmark.com
To: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com
Cc: j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety
Emissions from a laptop are naturally (without suppression) on the order of
10 uV/m to 100s of uV/m. 1000 uV/m would represent at least a 20 dB outage
at frequencies that could possibly interfere with sensor electronics. The
coupling is lossy: 1 mV/m will generate far less than 1 mV signal in
Ken Javor wrote:
Curiosity. How long must airbags work?
As long as you have the car, supposedly. Same with seat belts.
They're all safety features. Interestingly, if you have a cracked
or broken windshield, a cop *can* write you up for the car
being unsafe. I've never heard of it,
Rich,
I think you're right. Both lawyer and plaintiff are responsible. The
jury that goes along with the whole thing just because an insurance company is
going to pay the whole thing is no help either.
The lady years ago (Oakland Calif if memory serves) that sued the
Rich Nute wrote:
EMC? Ha!
You raise a good point since the FCC legally can but
hasn't implemented an American version of immunity
standards. The words must accept on the FCC labels
of your effected devices are evident of it. Maybe some
day we will have do immunity testing.
- Doug
Re: EMC-related safety issues
I do not disagree but what about the use of mobile phones in emergencies -
should the FCC require all advertisements to carry a warning that mobile
phones cannot be relied upon for emergencies?
I think that would be a great idea as it might even focus the minds of
LOL. Not entirely beside the point. That rubbish attracts listeners. The
more listeners, the more advertising time is worth. The less interference,
the more potential listeners. Advertising revenue then depends on clear
reception and no rfi. Now you have the fundamental reason for FCC/CISPR
Re: EMC-related safety issuesIn Ken's second scenario, Chrysler Corp. had to
fix the Dodge/Plymoth min-van's rear door latch. I'm
sure of the other two. However, note that it is not the US government that
would be after the knife
(actually a box cutter) manufacturer, but what we call on this side
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:55 AM
To: Cortland Richmond; Andrew Carson
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues
Curiosity. How long must airbags work? A car can be driven
My copy of BS EN 50140-4:1996 was 'published under the authority of the
Standards Board and comes into effect on 15 August 1996.' BS DOW was
2001-01-01 for the 1998 version. Amendment 10102 dated September 1998
affects page 3, adding 'alarm transmission systems' to the scope.
Comments:
1)
I think the issue is that the lamp is not an EMC regulated
device. In fact, in Europe, ITE conducted emissions must
be regulated so as not to cause desk/room lights to flicker,
as in when a fuser lamp in a printer kicks on.
Apparantly the proper functioning of lighting takes precedence
over
Perhaps, it merely interfered with the sensor electronics, not the true
magnetic field that was being sensed.
- Robert -
Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121
AJM International Electronics Consultants
Hi John:
I've replaced the incandescent lamp on my bedside
table with a new energy-saving compact flourescent
lamp. With the lamp on, I cannot listen to even
the strongest AM radio station on my clock radio
(on the same bedside table) due to the lamp
interference.
Hello all,
Well Xmas has come and gone and I got a nice new car stereo
for Christmas. I dutifully went up to Best Buy - had it installed
only to be informed that I can no longer receive AM. I happen
to enjoy AM radio so this was a bit of a blow. I inquired as
to what the possible cause might
Rich
Do you use Google.com for searches. I did a search on water conductivity
yesterday and got a lot of hits with typical values. Many related to biological
studies.
See, for example http://www.dartmouth.edu/~bio59/conductivity.htm
-Jason
Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote:
Hi John:
Hi all
I was just seeking through EMC LVD RTTE and MD directives for evidence
of my interpretation but I couldn't find it, so can some of you help me.
As I recall there are the following rules:
For EMC directive you will always have to produce according to the
latest harmonized standards (after
-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:34 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Touch-Pad ESD immunity
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff
Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in
Hello John,
If the BSI site says that, then it is yet another proof of you can't always
believe what you read. :) My Aug 2001 version of the BSI electronic catalog
shows a publication date of 1996 for the BS EN ( but the document was
actually released in late 1995) with an addendum A1 published
Hi Ken:
Trial lawyers and their clients have an obvious interest in portraying
consumers as helpless and child-like, and rich corporations as robber-barons
preying on the poor and weak. But why does the rest of society jump on that
bandwagon? Because profit and wealth, once
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in
200201031919.laa11...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'EMC-related safety
issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
I've replaced the incandescent lamp on my bedside
table with a new energy-saving compact flourescent
lamp. With the lamp on, I cannot
I read in !emc-pstc that John Shinn john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com wrote
(in 00c001c1948d$a53fb580$0b3d1...@hadco.comsanmina.com) about 'EMC-
related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
NO NO NO. Don't think about the plane. There will be more red tape
than you want to think about, especially if
I don't understand the part I snipped. Isn't that what
immunity/susceptibility testing is all about? We already do that. The part
I had a problem with was the statement that industry standards are not
enough, we must try to anticipate all problems that might ever arise, in
effect forcing the
Hi Ken:
The Forrestal incident occurred during the Vietnam conflict, July 1967. It
was pretty much as you describe except I would not say EMI was not
controlled. All DOD services had EMI requirements at his time. In fact,
1967 was the year that MIL-STD-461 was adopted as a
Curiosity. How long must airbags work? A car can be driven for two decades
or more, by an uncontrolled number of owners, and with no mandatory
inspection or service. How long is a manufacturer liable for the proper
operation of those airbags? Same question for anti-lock brakes. If the
NO NO NO. Don't think about the plane. There will be more red tape
than you want to think about, especially if it is bolted down (permanently
installed).
If not approved by the appropriate government agency (the FAA's FSDO -
Flight Safety District Office), it could cause loss of airworthyness
Trial lawyers and their clients have an obvious interest in portraying
consumers as helpless and child-like, and rich corporations as robber-barons
preying on the poor and weak. But why does the rest of society jump on that
bandwagon? Because profit and wealth, once badges of achievement, are
Rich,
Your scenarios are excellent at proving my point that it is largely the
unregulated devices amongst us that are the true source of EMIC,
i.e. electromagnetic incompatibility.
Thanks, George
Rich Nute richn%sdd.hp@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/03/2002 02:19:38 PM
To:
My understanding is the manufacturer must consider all reasonable uses and
misuses of the product and then take the appropriate actions to ensure the
safe use of the product. Warnings may form part of that action and may
include a list of intended uses and warnings against other uses. However,
Hi George:
The key word in EMC is compatibility. This implies that electrical and
electronic
equipment are (ideally) designed so that each can operate normally in the
presence
of another. This requires limiting both the emissions and sensitivity of
such
devices.
EMC?
John:
Perhaps you should rephrase that!
EMC IS a controversial issue.
SAFETY IS a controversial issue.
thus
EMC and SAFETY ARE a controversial issue.
Just my $0.02 worth.
John
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf
I still have a hard time believing it was a compass that was affected by a
laptop computer. ADF indication, could be. VOR, maybe. Magnetic compass?
I wouldn't want a magnetic source that strong in my lap! My belt buckle
would be stuck to it. There is quite a distance between a magnetic
The Forrestal incident occurred during the Vietnam conflict, July 1967. It
was pretty much as you describe except I would not say EMI was not
controlled. All DOD services had EMI requirements at his time. In fact,
1967 was the year that MIL-STD-461 was adopted as a Tri-Service requirement
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
While I take your point - I'll challenge with the equally valid
argument
that says
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8
4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6ABC4FD5@flbocexu05) about 'EMC-related safety issues',
on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
more severe immunity requirements apply. Those requirements are either
specified in EN 50130-4
According to the BSI web
As I said in earlier posting, ADF might be used to get a bearing to a known
transmitter, and thus line up an approach, but it is not IFR and cannot be
used as the sole source of information in order to make a safe landing. My
experience is with transport, not general aviation class aircraft. On
According to this press release, CEN standards should now be on line for
free.
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p_action.gettxt=gtdoc=IP/0
1/1837|0|RAPIDlg=EN
Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International
---
This message is
*
A routine flight over Dallas-Fort Worth was disrupted when one of the
compasses suddenly shifted 10 degrees to the right. The pilot asked
if any passenger was operating an electronic device, and finding that
a laptop computer had just been turned on requested that it be turned
Hi John:
Is there a value (or range of values) for the
resistance of water?
The data exists; it depends, of course, on solute nature and
concentration. Try a web search.
I did a web search before my post. There is lots of
data on the use of water resistance and
As engineers, we should consider the safety
implications of what we design, test or otherwise
work on. EMI is part of that. What is considered a
safety risk depends a great deal on corporate
policy, the legal, political and popular climate in
one's state of residence, and the kind of equipment
ADF approaches are still in use using non-directional beacons (NDB). I
expect to get a lot of experience with them while pursuing my instrument
rating this year. Of course, the other use for the ADF receiver is tuning
in ball games while flying cross country as they cover the AM broadcast
band,
While I take your point - I'll challenge with the equally valid
argument that says show me the data that they do cause SIDS! What is worse
never producing anything while checking an infinite set of possibilities or
eventually discovering an unforeseen event? In the US it can take 7 to
I'm old enough, Ken, to remember ADF approaches! But
laptop switchers often operate inband to frequencies
used by aviation non-directional beacons. This makes
them more of a threat than the harmonics from
lower-frequency ones. It is also, of course,
possible for the laptop's other emissions to
Let's be real careful here and give credit where credit is due.
The Pinto incident was in many ways not a safety issue with
regard to safety testing and the safety engineers at Ford.
The Ford Pinto fiasco was clearly a management issue.
Tests were done to the 20 mph rear impact standard early
I agree that this area is complex, and the ambiguity of the standards don't
help.
Special immunity requirements exist for the following types of alarm systems
per the scope of EN 50130-4: intruder, hold-up, fire detection and fire
alarm, social, CCTV for security applications, access control for
I agree with what you say, but at least in this country the anti-business
pendulum has swung farther than you imagine. A couple examples.
Thurman Munson, a Yankee catcher in the '70s, was killed in his twin engine
Cessna jet. He crashed short of a runway. His estate sued Cessna, not on
the
Try http://astimage.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/
Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E.
65 Crandon Way
Rochester, NY 14618
Phone: 585 442 3909
Fax: 585 442 2182
j.schan...@ieee.org
- Original Message -
From: Brodie Pedersen brod...@nonin.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Sent: Thursday, January 03,
Richard,
A monitoring system is a convenience it is not a guarantee of life saving
functionality. It is a surveillance camera not a life support system. If and
infant, in this case, needs special monitoring because of some know illness or
just because you are really concerned parents, then
Hi Lou:
Try checking the AC input wiring to the power supply, and verify that it doesn't
have loops across the power supply. Magnetic fields from the transformer may be
high, and excessive wire length acts as a magnetic pickup.
1) Are the parameters you posted for the conducted emission limits
Brodie,
For Mil Stds go to http://astimage.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ Some standards
are not available in PDF format to download but are available in hard copy
and are still free. You just have to set up a customer number and order the
desired standard via fax or e-mail. This is a great resource!
I read in !emc-pstc that Crabb, John jo...@exchange.scotland.ncr.com
wrote (in B6CD5947CF30D411A1350050DA4B75FF03C23387@sgbdun200.scotland.n
cr.com) about 'EN60529', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
John, I have forwarded this information to the chairman of
BSI committee EPL/74 (which deals with EN60950),
I understand in this particular case the RF camera may have been marketed
for baby surveillance. The majority of camera systems, wired and wireless,
that I have seen are not marketed in this manner. Most are advertised as
security/surveillance cameras. Are you implying that all manufacturers of
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in e5.11a0fabe.296
5d...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
Over the course of this correspondence (and in earlier postings to
emc-pstc)
you have cast doubt on the IEE's guide to EMC and Functional Safety
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8
4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6ABC4FD5@flbocexu05) about 'EMC-related safety issues',
on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
Ken, let me address the specific case you mentioned - the RF camera used
for
baby surveillance. In that particular
The key word in EMC is compatibility. This implies that electrical and
electronic
equipment are (ideally) designed so that each can operate normally in the
presence
of another. This requires limiting both the emissions and sensitivity of such
devices.
Historically, only a limited number of
That is exactly the point. These things started out as intended for
inventory shrinkage control in retail outlets but because someone might
use them for something else, the manufacturer is liable for their
malfunction, even though the device makes the consumer's life easier. The
new device is
---BeginMessage---
Dear John
Maybe I should have been more explicit.
Over the course of this correspondence (and in earlier postings to emc-pstc)
you have cast doubt on the IEE's guide to EMC and Functional Safety without
being in any way specific.
Now you are saying that you haven't read it
---BeginMessage---
All I know about the issue of the laptop interfering with the compass is from
the IEE's Guide to EMC and Functional Safety, copied below:
*
A routine flight over Dallas-Fort Worth was disrupted when one of the
compasses suddenly shifted 10 degrees to the right. The
Paolo,
The Medical Devices Directive enforces you to use the standards listed in
the Official Journal as follows:
Safety: EN60601-2-25 + A1
EMC : EN 60 601-1-2
Any questions, please e-mail or call.
This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If
you are not
Brodie,
It is http://astimage.daps.dla.mil/online/new/
You do not need an account even though at the top of the page is a place to
enter your account number and password. If you just click on Quick Search
you can find everything you need.
Kurt Andrews
Compliance Engineer
Tracewell Systems,
John, I have forwarded this information to the chairman of
BSI committee EPL/74 (which deals with EN60950), with the
suggestion that CENELEC be asked to get EN60529 removed
from the list of LVD notified standards. We'll see what
happens.
On the same subject, TC74 is working on requirements
Brodie,
Here is my collection of URLs--I'm not sure which ones are
still valid, however.
Regards,
Dan
http://www.dodssp.daps.mil/
http://agena.spawar.navy.mil/
http://www-chas.nosc.mil/spawar/pdf/MIL461D.PDF
Dear Ken
I understand your concern and your comments, but all the IEE's guide was
trying to do was make people aware of the legal situation as it actually
exists - and recommend what engineers need to do to reduce their employers'
liability risks under present-day legislation. (Bearing in mind
Could some one post the URL for the mil stds web site please, I seem to
have lost it.
Thank you in advance.
Brodie Pedersen
Nonin Medical Inc.
Plymouth MN USA
---
This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
Technical Committee emc-pstc
The general impression in Europe is that the 'culture of blame' began in the
USA, leading to such warning messages as Do not use this appliance to dry
pet animals on microwave ovens. It often seems that legal trends begin in
the States and take about 10 years to get over to Europe.
It seems a
Ken,
I don't think anyone could disagree with your sentiments. The problem is
attributing the level of liability between user and manufacturer.
Car manufacturers sleep at night yet their products kill thousands each
year, they design them to high standards yet by their use they still kill
and
Hi All,
Thanks for all your input. I believe I have a better handle on it now.
Kind Regards,
Sam Wismer
Engineering Manager
ACS, Inc.
Phone: (770) 831-8048
Fax: (770) 831-8598
Web: www.acstestlab.com
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Carson acar...@uk.xyratex.com wrote
(in 3c345485.b0f29...@uk.xyratex.com) about 'EMC-related safety
issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002:
I get the idea that we a missing the whole point of this
discussion.
I think that you are missing the point. The major
The incident about the wheelchair going over a cliff is a documented report
to the FDA. You can find it mentioned on the FDA's web site along with other
reports of wheelchairs gone berserk due to EMC issues, typically with
radios.
Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International
Ken, let me address the specific case you mentioned - the RF camera used for
baby surveillance. In that particular application, surveillance for the
protection of persons, more severe immunity requirements apply. Those
requirements are either specified in EN 50130-4 or the particular ETSI
product
hello,
I have to test an electrocardiograph for EMC , but I'm in trouble with the
standard to apply.
There is IEC 60601-2-25 -A1, Particular requirements for the safety of
elecrocardiographs, that deals with EMC, and refers to IEC 60601-1-2 1st
ed.(1993, now superseded) and is still valid, as
No risk of electric shock at these voltages. But in salt water environments, a
greatly increased risk of corrosion.
Which could in turn lead to a shock or fire hazard.
Slightly off topic, but a valid point to be considered.
Peter Merguerian wrote:
Jason,
Please explain to your colleague
I get the idea that we a missing the whole point of this discussion.
Should we as Professional Safety Engineers and Product designers
consider the safety implications of EMC emissions ?
The answer is a definite Yes. We have a clear duty of care and
responsibility to consider all implications of
If you work at a site with a large air conditioning plant or a chilled water
system, then chances are your facilities
manager will have a conductivity cell. They are used as a very quick means to
monitor water purity and to check for
signs of corrosion.
Units are expressed in uS/cm and
Jason,
Please explain to your colleague that for North American requirements (as
depicted in the NEC and CEC) there is no risk of electric shock or fire from
circuits in wet locations for up to 21.2 V. For higher voltages you should
start taking steps to minimize the risk of water ingress and
In my experience it is EXTREMELY unlikely that personal electronics could
have disturbed ADF heading indication. The ADF sensor is an
electrostatically shielded loop which is mounted typically on the belly of a
transport class aircraft, well away from any passenger-conveyed intense
sources of
Hi All,
I have seen some postings recently on the technical lists on cable
discharge so I decided to do a few measurements using a simple test
setup.
Cable discharge happens when a cable becomes statically charged and then
is connected to equipment. This can happen by dragging a cable on the
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40c0...@windlord.wwp.com
) about 'Touch-Pad ESD immunity', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
Do you have denounce circuitry on the input of the touch pad
The spell-checker demon strikes
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in
200201030028.qaa08...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Electric Shock and
Water', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
Is there a value (or range of values) for the
resistance of water?
The data exists; it depends, of course, on solute nature and
I read in !emc-pstc that jasonxmall...@netscape.net wrote (in
738426ed.4080ead3.73ea6...@netscape.net) about 'Electric Shock and
Water', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
INCREASED LEAKAGE CURRENTS
Water is generally conductive. If you are working on a chassis and
accidentally
touch an energized contact,
I read in !emc-pstc that J.Feldhaar j.feldh...@telejet.de wrote (in
3c333461.7f5b...@telejet.de) about 'Quasi-Peak Measurements with
Spectrum Analyzer WAS: Books about Spectrum Analyzer', on Wed, 2 Jan
2002:
I am currently writing a book about the subject of RF spectrum analysis,
which will be
I read in !emc-pstc that Mike Hopkins mhopk...@thermokeytek.com wrote
(in 49CD487E8BA9D31181190060081C6B8F3BEC1D@COMSERVER) about 'EMC-
related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
As already stated, the incident of the DC-10 has for years been used as an
example of personal electronics
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets
.com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com
) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
Cameras don't cause disease likes SIDS.
Please post your proof! That is the attitude of
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in 125.99b6ace.296
48...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Wed, 2 Jan 2002:
I understand that under European Product Liability law (and I suspect in
US
product liability law too) evidence of a historical lack of safety
Well, one of the less obvious things is what does your system do to
detect a true mouse pad contact? Do you have denounce circuitry on the input
of the touch pad (or keyboard lines), do you sample a couple of times to see if
the input stays there (thumbs are still much slower than ESD
Great, Now we have to start adding information on the sales brochure, like As
the purchaser of this product places this product into service said purchase is
forming a licensed arrangement with the vendor to not hold said vendor culpable
for all uses and potential misuses of this product
Water, as is generally conductive, forms a better surface contact ( to you),
reducing the surface
resistivity (yours), thus allowing a greater flow of lethal current through
the body (yours) from
an energised electrical device.
And when coupled with any, or all of the previous faults, you may
Hi Jason:
Water comprises a 3-dimensional resistor.
The value of the resistor depends on:
* the purity of the water itself (the
resistance is inversely proportional to the
purity);
* the dimensions of the electrodes (i.e., the
conductors in contact with the
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