Peter Donald wrote:
>
> (BTW Sam - have we ever had a clean build yet ?)
I've gotten real close. All Apache projects compiling clean, just one non-Apache
project failing...
> One really kool and very good technically project you may want to look at is
> OpenEJB. Thats a project I would love to
Hi,
had a browse through all the documentation and it seems like an interesting
and useful product. There is parts where it clearly overlaps existing
products at Apache but there is other parts that look good.
They have a BuisnessObjects layer which is similar in role to torque (from
turbine)
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:52, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Endre Stlsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new
> > thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things.
>
> Do I detect a bit of sarcasm in there?
>
> Speaking as a relative newcomer (the entire JBoss
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:09, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> | Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before
> | JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon
> | was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists...
>
> I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:56, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
>
> Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long
> flamewar forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta...
Oh good - s
* Endre Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment
| would have been really _really_ cool.
|
| But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad.
The jakarta process is not right for everybody and it is not the end of
Endre Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new
> thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things.
Do I detect a bit of sarcasm in there?
Speaking as a relative newcomer (the entire JBoss discussion predated my
involement, for example). wh
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
| > Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in
| > every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were
| > talking about?
|
| Actually, Jon was pro...
I've understood this by now, I kind of just threw tha
robert burrell donkin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> anybody can donate code to the Apache Software Foundation simply by
> creating code under The Apache Software License.
Err... Actually not. You can't... The ASL implies a copyright, and only with
the assignment of the copyright to the foundatio
Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long flamewar
forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta...
Pier
-
Endre Stølsvik at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> | Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
> | now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
> | number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
>
> So you (Jakarta)
On 10/18/01 3:18 AM, "Ranjit Mathew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> It's somewhat sad that this discussion has degenerated
> into a flamefest, rife with personal attacks and orificial
> metaphors.
Made me actually make a separate folder and rule for general@
[SNIP]
>
> No, tha
Thanks to all the people who came up with helpful suggestions, we'll be
looking into our options.
Paul.
> -Original Message-
> From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:48 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE
I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I think the move
to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action.
If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source
licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious.
If your OS pro
appropriate "scratches" -
> here or elsewhere. Why not use this as a starting point
> rather than starting from scratch? (Unintended pun!)
you've persuaded me (at least) that you have enough commercial reasons for
THBS to want to open source ASPizer.
so - do it!
create a new
On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 07:48 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
> of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
> Incredible.
rejecting jboss was probably good (in the long term) for everybody.
jbo
"Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> IMHO, the commitment from your company is not enough. The company might go
> under, or shift strategy, or find the product no longer useful. That would
> leave the product effectively orphaned, in Jakarta land but with nobody willing
>
Title: RE: ASPizer
Hi Paul!
> -Mensaje original-
> De: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: jueves 18 de octubre de 2001 0:43
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto: RE: ASPizer
> > How can you commit to backing a project over the long te
on 10/18/01 12:18 AM, "Ranjit Mathew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost
> verbatim in your document "New Project Proposals"
> (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and
#1. It is a quote made in a public forum.
#2. I also used a quote from
At 08:48 18.10.2001 +0200, you wrote:
>| Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
>| now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
>| number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
>
>So you (Jakarta) rejected J
on 10/17/01 11:48 PM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
> | now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
> | number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
for different
kinds of customers - some might be willing to pay
more for a better QoS, modify your user profile
schemata, add more WebApps to your site, be able easily
manage the whole setup through a single point, etc.
This is exactly the class of problems that ASPizer
set out to solve - at th
From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How
> incredibly smart
> of you.
Ah yes, the incredible science of predicting alternative
realities.
How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Maybe the JBoss developers
| The thing is that most people who do open source work do it for the
| fun/satisfaction of the thing, and engaging in debates with someone who
| truly speaks their mind and only compliments your work when its worth
| complimenting helps out with that fun/satisfaction thing.
I agree. That's not
| Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
| now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
| number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly sm
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
| At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
| >On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
| >
| >| > As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| >| > observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
| >| > Wh
on 10/17/01 9:36 PM, "Tim Vernum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When I first read the original mail my reaction was "Someone with
> a homeless project looking for an owner".
I must be tainted from having been around here so long. I see right through
his proposal.
> In fact Paul's most recent mai
From: Avi Cherry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Instead, he
> questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying
> that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take
> the project in. This was obviously not his intent,
It might have been obvious to you, but
> on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I
> was pretty
> > clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
> > continuing to work o
In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Endre
Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
>definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
>years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
>pe
At 8:00 PM -0400 10/17/01, Scott Tacares wrote:
>I don't care if he was here before time and space there is no excuse! He
>does damage to the entire open source community with his crude and
>unjustified remarks. It makes people shy away from participating in fear
>that he may belittle them, this i
Daniel Rall wrote:
>
> ASPizer guys: you have the option to re-submit your proposal in a
> manner which directly addresses the questions raised here. People do
> sometimes change their minds when presented with a comprehensive set
> of information in a format desirable to
Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to
> change my mind.
>
> -1
ASPizer guys: you have the option to re-submit your proposal in a
manner which directly addresses the questions raised here.
- Original Message -
From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: ASPizer
> Agree, he might be a pain from time to time (or most of the times, OK)...
> But he has been around since
>>Jon justifiably told Ranjit Mathew that Jakarta
>>was not a dumping ground. He also outlined that unlikely promises were >>not
good enough. While one may criticize his direct style, Jakarta is not a
popularity contest.
As an unbiased observer, I fully support Jon's behavior here and apprec
I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to
change my mind.
-1
My suggestion:
Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
number of years on my own dime, the J
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 1:14 AM
>
> ...
>
> ...Given your defensive nature I now question even more the
> ability of you and your project to thrive in this open arena.
Jumping to conclusions about the persona
on 10/17/01 4:29 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Calling someone's hard-worked project ".bomb", without even
> trying to get informed about it.
>
> Does this qualify?
It is a .bomb project though. I have an entire corporation of them (yes, I
am the proud owner of a rather large w
> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:33 AM
>
> ...
>
> ... Why are you so threatened by this ?
Jumping to conclusions about the motivations of someone else is
a way of getting personal. That is always counterproductiv
> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:54 PM
>
> I am sorry but what insult are you referring to?
Calling someone's hard-worked project ".bomb", without even
trying to get informed about it.
Does this qualify?
Have fun
on 10/17/01 3:33 PM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've already responded to that. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and
> attacked without even atttempting to get clarification.
There is no conclusion. There is no attack. You still haven't responded to
my question and your do
> Let me quote you:
>
> "However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP
> market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have
> decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that
> direction."
>
> And:
>
> "We intend to continue t
on 10/17/01 12:24 PM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, this is not what we said. We said we cannot fund taking the product to
> market, which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are
> primarily a consulting company, and we have
At 12:42 17.10.2001 -0700, Paul Ilechko wrote:
>On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
>
>
>> Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
>>
>> > There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
>> > to the ASF other than because you think you h
At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>
>| > As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
>| > observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
>| > Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? O
on 10/17/01 12:42 PM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to
> insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at
> all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem.
on 10/17/01 1:21 PM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
> like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
> diplomatic way.
I did start nice. How come you choose to ignore that?
> I'm not. It
On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
>
> > There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
> > to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
> > there anything that sug
to market,
which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are primarily a
consulting company, and we have used ASPizer for a client project. We do not have a
software sales channel, and we are not currently in a position to develop one.
Paul.
Find the best deals o
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
| > As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| > observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
| > Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
| > Be a bit more polite? Be, you kno
writing - it is still direct to the
point but much less ofensive.
Thanks and have fun,
Paulo
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:20 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ASPizer
>
>
> on 10/17/0
on 10/17/01 9:35 AM, "Ceki Gulcu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful?
> Yes. Accurate statement? Yes.
Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
> There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ceki Gulcu writes:
>Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly
>committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter
>Jon's remarks and justify the reasons why their product should be part
>of Jakarta.
...
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty
> clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
> continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and h
on 10/17/01 9:24 AM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate
> projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development
> community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they
> dumpe
ld make
Jon a lot more popular if he were always smooth and accomodating.
Jakarta needs people who can cut through the bullshit. Jon is one of
them.
Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly
committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter
Jon's remarks an
Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that
we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on
ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. Now, if
anyone wants to look more closely a
Alex McLintock at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Project X is written because it is useful to Company Y.
> Company Y attempts to market Project X because they think it is useful to
> others.
> Company Y decides they wont get enough money for Project X
> Company Y offers Project X to the Opensource c
Ceki Gulcu at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Endre,
>
> Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
> he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
> dumping ground for .bomb projects.
>
> I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
|
| Endre,
|
| Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
| he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
| dumping ground for .bomb projects.
Of course it's not a dumping ground.
This is about whether the
of disrespect.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:42 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ASPizer
>
>
>
> Endre,
>
> Although Jon might not be the most pol
--- Ceki Gulcu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >
> Endre,
>
> Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
> he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
> dumping ground for .bomb projects.
Project X is written because it is useful to Company Y.
ce to respond
| > sooner.
| >
| > A few comments:
| >
| > ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used
| > on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the
| > intention that we would sell it. However, due to various ec
On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
| on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| > Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond
| > sooner.
| >
| > A few comments:
| >
| > ASPizer is current
CTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: ASPizer
>
>
> Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon.
>
> Paul.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent:
Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon.
Paul.
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:30 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh
> Subject: Re: ASPizer
>
>
> on 10/15
on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond
> sooner.
>
> A few comments:
>
> ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being
Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner.
A few comments:
ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live
website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we
would se
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