2013/9/11 Bob Weinand
> Hi!
>
> I tried to widen the naming possibilities by allowing to use keywords as
> identifiers (for function names, class names, label (goto) names, ...)
> where possible. It doesn't break any BC.
>
> Furthermore when BC needs to be broken in future for new keywords, it wi
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Seva Lapsha wrote:
> PHP is a collective mind. Any dictatorship would mean a degradation for it.
> If you don't like how it's managed, there is an easy path:
>
> 1. Earn authority.
> 2. Propose a change.
> 3. Implement it.
> 4. Maintain it.
>
> Start with 1.
http://www.unicom.com/pw/faq/sco-xenix.faq
"blast from the past"...
Rajneesh N. Shetty
Tel : (+61)468371858
From: Philip Sturgeon [pjsturg...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2013 2:43 PM
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
>
> PHP is a collective mind. Any dictatorship would mean a degradation for it.
> If you don't like how it's managed, there is an easy path:
>
> 1. Earn authority.
> 2. Propose a change.
> 3. Implement it.
> 4. Maintain it.
>
> Start with 1.
Why is earning authority a step in this process? This just
PHP is a collective mind. Any dictatorship would mean a degradation for it.
If you don't like how it's managed, there is an easy path:
1. Earn authority.
2. Propose a change.
3. Implement it.
4. Maintain it.
Start with 1.
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Florin Patan wrote:
> Good day intern
On 09/11/2013 05:44 AM, Florin Patan wrote:
Where's Rasmus, the so called benevolent dictator, to actually dictate
and handle the internals? Yes Rasmus, you're making money out of PHP
yet I haven't seen a comment from you in the past months. Wikipedia
doesn't list you as hibernating.
Rasmus abd
On 09/11/2013 05:34 PM, Florin Patan wrote:
> - lack of a clear roadmap: as I said earlier, can someone really tell
> what's in the next two versions of php from now
That's never going to happen. We don't have paid developers that we can
assign tasks to. We have volunteers who work on things they
Hi Johannes,
I do understand motivations behind keeping core simple and stable that
majority of internals always promote. I also understand the majority of
user base is on shared host.
But as a counterpart, what about large agencies that do want to extract
every single feature PHP has to provide?
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 16:15 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
> There's also little to no documentation on how to setup your work
> environment for developing something for PHP, I've started to do
> something about that but it's not like I'm a experienced user in
> this
Issue 1: There is no single wo
> So if you want to do something useful: draft an RFC with a clear code of
> conduct, put it to a vote, promote it. And if you don't agree see above,
> take a deep breath and do not waste time answering this email to tell me
> an idiot.
Typically RFC's have been about the PHP language and not abo
> Yes, I know those sites, but don't you think that internals is a different
> kind of a discussion? First of all, the volume is different. We get two
> obvious trolls a day? Meh. On the other hand, I could downvote a person
> that has a different opinion than I do.
>
I think that it could be usef
Agreed. But no one wants opinions that add nothing to the topic at hand or
attempt to derail the conversation. A system like this would give power to
the people who are actually trying to keep the conversation on track so
that constructive discourse can occur.
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Le
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> Paul Taulborg wrote:
>
>> Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be, observe:
>> http://news.php.net/php.internals
>>
>> 1) We already have a basic/simple web interface.
>> 2) This could be extended to have the features of forum s
On Sep 11, 2013, at 11:06 AM, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> On 11/09/2013 16:02, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
>>
>>
>> If the forum would be a way to access the same data in a different way, it's
>> ok. But the 'votes' remind me of "protests" on Facebook that have thousands
>> of 'likes' but completely
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 23:34 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
> First, I didn't said anything about attitude to new comers. For me it
> was quite well and people offered to help out in solving issues.
Thanks.
> Second, if you read the posting rules of this mailing list, top
> posting is one of those thi
I'm in full support of this idea. In order to have more meaningful and on
topic discussions, we have to provide ourselves with the means and tools to
do so. I think having a forum would be excellent.
Matthieu Napoli also suggested Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/) from
the people at StackOverf
On 09/11/2013 02:35 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 12:44 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
>> - having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
>> which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.
>
> Well, so what should happen? An RFC without patc
On 11/09/2013 15:42, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
-1 - that would split discussions and force people interested in the
subject to look at two sources. --Leszek
I actually had a solution to that:
>Perhaps the software could be implemented such that all posts and
replies on it would also be sent to
On Sep 11, 2013, at 10:44 AM, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> On 11/09/2013 15:42, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
>> -1 - that would split discussions and force people interested in the subject
>> to look at two sources. --Leszek
> I actually had a solution to that:
>
> >Perhaps the software could be impleme
On Sep 11, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> As something of a response to "Wake up", perhaps some sort of "forum" system
> for discussion would beat the mailing list. We wouldn't eradicate the mailing
> list, but discussions could also take place there if people wished to.
-1 - that
Philip Sturgeon wrote:
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
Terence Copestake wrote:
There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whis
"I feel we have a lof of 'silent' people reading the list."
Maybe someone who is in charge of running this mailing list can provide the
ratio:
(distinct email addresses which sent email to internals in the last X
months) / (number of email addresses subscribed to internals)
to actually see an estim
Am 11.09.2013 14:46, schrieb Johannes Schlüter:
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
I hope this is a joke.
+1. A forum is a no go for me.
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>On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Madara Uchiha wrote:
> A forum is merely a medium, and even if the community would be able to
> moderate message, I still foresee a problem.
>
> As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
> would be hostile as well. Take for example the situ
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 21:27 +0200, Madara Uchiha wrote:
> As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
> would be hostile as well.
Sorry, I don't believe in this "hostile" argument. Yes people have
strong opinions and aren't not necessarily diplomatic while stating them
(for a
Hi!
I tried to widen the naming possibilities by allowing to use keywords as
identifiers (for function names, class names, label (goto) names, ...) where
possible. It doesn't break any BC.
Furthermore when BC needs to be broken in future for new keywords, it will have
a smaller impact as most
Paul Taulborg wrote:
Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be, observe:
http://news.php.net/php.internals
1) We already have a basic/simple web interface.
2) This could be extended to have the features of forum software
(threading, sorting, searching, voting, filtering)
Is that rea
It works.
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Andrey Andreev wrote:
> If you're reading this - it works.
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Andrea Faulds wrote:
On 11/09/2013 18:04, Lester Caine wrote:
Does anybody have access to the source code for news.php.net? None of
the links seem to be functional now.
I am assuming that this is not actually running ON PHP? colobus is in
perl, but the rewrites in the notes are for .php , howev
If you're reading this - it works.
If we're getting this on the road, I propose the following:
- Structured view is a must.
- Community moderation based on some sort of karma/reputation system.
- Full sync between the mailing list and the forum interface:
- Messages here should be posted there by a bot in the name of the
aut
On 11/09/2013 19:20, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
On 09/11/2013 10:39 AM, Andrea Faulds wrote:
You are free to set up a forum somewhere and discuss anything you want,
but internals as a mailing list is not going anywhere, sorry.
-Rasmus
Perhaps you didn't read my replies, or I didn't make myself cl
Good evening everybody,
Levi Morrison wrote:
> I feel that we have a lot of 'silent' people reading the list. If they had
some way they can quietly voice their opinion that would greatly benefit
everyone. My thinking is that voting can allow that to happen without
creating noise. I am open to othe
On 11/09/2013 19:52, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
As the one who started this in the first place, I support the idea.
There are benifits and downsides to this, nothing is perfect of course.
Downsides are that this will fragment the discussions.
Upside is that this will move all those heated discussion
As the one who started this in the first place, I support the idea.
There are benifits and downsides to this, nothing is perfect of course.
Downsides are that this will fragment the discussions.
Upside is that this will move all those heated discussions from the list to
forum. This can be a two l
A forum is merely a medium, and even if the community would be able to
moderate message, I still foresee a problem.
As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
would be hostile as well. Take for example the situation on Stack
Overflow's PHP tag. Hardened by a tidal wave of cr
On 09/11/2013 10:39 AM, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> As something of a response to "Wake up", perhaps some sort of "forum"
> system for discussion would beat the mailing list. We wouldn't eradicate
> the mailing list, but discussions could also take place there if people
> wished to.
You are free to set
Paul Taulborg wrote:
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Lester Caine mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk>> wrote:
Paul Taulborg wrote:
Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be, observe:
http://news.php.net/php.internals
1) We already have a basic/simple web interfa
On 11/09/2013 18:04, Lester Caine wrote:
Does anybody have access to the source code for news.php.net? None of
the links seem to be functional now.
I am assuming that this is not actually running ON PHP? colobus is in
perl, but the rewrites n the notes are for .php , however at that age I
would
On Sep 11, 2013, at 11:23 AM, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
>> I think that it could be useful for the RFC process mainly. Sometimes
>> someone will dominate a discussion but if they are doing so against the
>> popular opinion on an issue it would significantly lower the impact of the
>> dominator
Dan Brown and myself have been trying to debug an issue with posting
to internals, where we think it just doesn't like custom domained
gmail addresses. Here's trying a plain-old gmail account.
Phil
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On 11 September 2013 17:00, Paul Taulborg wrote:
> Clearly it is broken, which is why this topic and Wake Up are the most
> active this group has seen in the last year, in only a few hours of time.
>
I'm going to generalise a lot, and there are obviously exceptions, however
most of the users who
On Sep 11, 2013, at 15:52 , Terence Copestake
wrote:
> (.. ) a concern
> brought up repeatedly both here and in various blogs is the lack of
> direction or vision. There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
> simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
>
On 11/09/2013 16:09, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
Yes, I know those sites, but don't you think that internals is a different kind
of a discussion? First of all, the volume is different. We get two obvious
trolls a day? Meh. On the other hand, I could downvote a person that has a
different opinion
On 11/09/2013 16:24, Leigh wrote:
So why don't you just use reddit or hacker news instead of trying to
create yet another community? When you get an overwhelming influx of
upvotes from the random assortment of people there, you can bring your
idea to the mailing list.
I'm not trying to create
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 09:16 -0600, Levi Morrison wrote:
> > Yes, I know those sites, but don't you think that internals is a different
> > kind of a discussion? First of all, the volume is different. We get two
> > obvious trolls a day? Meh. On the other hand, I could downvote a person
> > that has
On 11 September 2013 15:39, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> I'm thinking, in particular, of something à la Reddit.com or Hacker News,
> by which I mean has hierarchical replies with an upvote/downvote system.
>
So why don't you just use reddit or hacker news instead of trying to create
yet another commun
Andrea Faulds wrote:
As I've already said, I don't think this would entirely replace the mailing
list. But I'd like to see such a system in place as an alternative to the
mailing list for discussions. Perhaps the software could be implemented such
that all posts and replies on it would also be se
On 9/5/13 3:32 AM, Pierre Joye wrote:
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Nikita Popov wrote:
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Pierre Joye wrote:
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Sebastian Krebs
wrote:
That being said, there is always a point in a RFC discussion where
there is nothing left
> Thoughts?
There are others besides me who also would go down this route. In any case,
voting comments up and down is a means of allowing people to participate
without necessarily posting their opinion. If I agree with something
someone else said and have nothing else to add then a simple +1 is
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> As something of a response to "Wake up", perhaps some sort of "forum"
> system for discussion would beat the mailing list. We wouldn't
> eradicate the mailing list, but discussions could also take place
> there if people wished to.
That is a terrible
On 11/09/2013 16:02, Lester Caine wrote:
That used to be what Yahoo egroups provided until someone decided that
it was 'old fashioned' and re-write the web user interface. :( They seem
to have forgotten that 'plain text' is still a valid format, and now
html messages get displayed in longhand on
On 11/09/2013 16:02, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
If the forum would be a way to access the same data in a different way, it's ok. But the
'votes' remind me of "protests" on Facebook that have thousands of 'likes' but
completely no impact. RFCs are a place for voting, and mailing lists are a place
On 11 September 2013 16:09, Leszek Krupiński wrote:
> On the other hand, I could downvote a person that has a different opinion
> than I do.
>
And the negative reaction on a forum to someone doing that would be much
more visible, and much more effective at getting them to not do something
so des
On 09/11/2013 04:46 PM, John Betley wrote:
I'm in full support of this idea. In order to have more meaningful and on
topic discussions, we have to provide ourselves with the means and tools to
do so. I think having a forum would be excellent.
my personal experience with "we have both a forum a
>
> Yes, I know those sites, but don't you think that internals is a different
>> kind of a discussion? First of all, the volume is different. We get two
>> obvious trolls a day? Meh. On the other hand, I could downvote a person
>> that has a different opinion than I do.
>>
>
> I think that it coul
Le 11/09/2013 17:15, Hartmut Holzgraefe a écrit :
My greatest concern personally would be the lack of an offline option.
Not that I do matter in current affairs anymore at all, but back in the
days a lot of the work I've done on PHP code, documentation and mailing
lists and newsgroups (yes, we h
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Johannes Schlüter
wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 09:16 -0600, Levi Morrison wrote:
> > > Yes, I know those sites, but don't you think that internals is a
> different
> > > kind of a discussion? First of all, the volume is different. We get two
> > > obvious trolls
On 11/09/2013 16:25, Paul Taulborg wrote:
Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be, observe:
http://news.php.net/php.internals
1) We already have a basic/simple web interface.
2) This could be extended to have the features of forum software
(threading, sorting, searching, voting, fil
As I answered on Anthony's post, there is not much need for waking up,
or moving the talks to a forum, or discussing the problem to death here.
The problem is clear, and everyone involved on this mailing list is
aware of it to some degree. The only way this can be solved is if the
offenders self-c
Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be, observe:
http://news.php.net/php.internals
1) We already have a basic/simple web interface.
2) This could be extended to have the features of forum software
(threading, sorting, searching, voting, filtering)
3) All email posts would go to the e
On Sep 11, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Levi Morrison wrote:
>
> Yes, I know those sites, but don't you think that internals is a different
> kind of a discussion? First of all, the volume is different. We get two
> obvious trolls a day? Meh. On the other hand, I could downvote a person that
> has a d
Terence Copestake wrote:
There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whistles.
You see that is part of the problem here. What proportion of the internet
As something of a response to "Wake up", perhaps some sort of "forum"
system for discussion would beat the mailing list. We wouldn't eradicate
the mailing list, but discussions could also take place there if people
wished to.
I'm thinking, in particular, of something à la Reddit.com or Hacker
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Johannes Schlüter
wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 12:44 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
>> - having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
>> which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.
>
> Well, so what should happen? An RFC wit
2013/9/11 Terence Copestake
> In less than 10 posts, this thread descended into people bashing each
> other. Perhaps that's telling of something.
>
> I won't comment on the point about forums or anything else, but a concern
> brought up repeatedly both here and in various blogs is the lack of
> d
On 11/09/2013 13:16, jbo...@openmv.com wrote:
I'm still undecided about 'mixing' positional & named arguments: An
example use case for **kwargs here:
http://www.python-requests.org/en/latest/api/ If you declare:
request($method, $url, ...$args) Would $args collect 'method' and
'url' ? request(
Le 11/09/2013 16:06, Arvids Godjuks a écrit :
2013/9/11 Lester Caine
Arvids Godjuks wrote:
P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
marked as off topic and hidden by default.
But who
> That's not the first time I mention it, but Discourse
> (http://www.discourse.org/) seems like the kind of forum software
> appropriate for some of these problems.
>
> It allows:
>
> - branching off conversations (you all know how this is one of the biggest
> problem here)
>
> - community moderat
2013/9/11 Lester Caine
> Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>
>> P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
>> usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
>> marked as off topic and hidden by default.
>>
>
> But who decides what is off topic.
> There
2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 16:26 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> >
> >
> > P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf
> > posted usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts
> > should be marked as off topic and hidden by default.
In less than 10 posts, this thread descended into people bashing each
other. Perhaps that's telling of something.
I won't comment on the point about forums or anything else, but a concern
brought up repeatedly both here and in various blogs is the lack of
direction or vision. There's a conflict be
Arvids Godjuks wrote:
P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
marked as off topic and hidden by default.
But who decides what is off topic.
There are genuine disagreements as to how PHP sh
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 16:26 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>
>
> P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf
> posted usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts
> should be marked as off topic and hidden by default.
I read this as "I want a censor"
Does
2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> > It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to
> internals
> > and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
> > following all the stuff around a year ago, when I
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013, Daniel Basten wrote:
> cite: "I hope this is a joke."
>
> i guess that is the stuff they where talking about.
Not following etiquette is one of the things that annoys people. And you
just violated list etiquette it by top-replying.
Derick
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On Wednesday 11 September 2013 15:00:33 Daniel Basten wrote:
> cite: "I hope this is a joke."
>
> i guess that is the stuff they where talking about.
Yeah. A forum would be much better, this whole thread could just be
moderated shut and invisible after the first message.
Also a forum would avoi
cite: "I hope this is a joke."
i guess that is the stuff they where talking about.
greetings,
daniel
2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> > It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to
> internals
> > and mailing lists
On 09/11/2013 02:46 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote:
So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
I hope this is a joke.
so do I ...
--
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On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to internals
> and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
> following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 15 to
> 30 maillist
On Mon Sep 9 03:18 PM, Nikita Popov wrote:
>
> I created an RFC and preliminary implementation for named parameters:
>
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/named_params
I really like the idea!
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 2:16 PM, jbo...@openmv.com wrote:
>
> My preference would be to only support named pa
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 12:44 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
> - having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
> which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.
Well, so what should happen? An RFC without patch is accepted and then?
Somebody has to write a patch at
On Mon Sep 9 03:18 PM, Nikita Popov wrote:
> > I created an RFC and preliminary implementation for named parameters:
> >
> > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/named_params
> >
>
Awesome work!
>
> Let only special functions accept named params
> -
>
Proposal makes sense though there's still the
Well said, Florin. :)
I'm not a core contributor, I never have been and probably never will be as
I don't know C... but I do follow internals quite keenly. It strikes me
that the biggest problem here is that there's no one entity to decide the
rules of the road, so everything (including the rules
Hello everyone.
I just want to point out one thing about all that internals stuff and
remind about a good idea that has been surfacing a few times through the
years, but now I think it can actually get traction because of recent
problems.
It is based on the fact that there are too many people writ
Good day internals,
This morning I read something that's not fun:
https://twitter.com/ircmaxell/status/376027280562073600
Yet another good contributor leaves this community (not the whole PHP
community) because of the way things are done here.
It's true that this is an open source project and
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