The IOLI convention is so much larger than other lace events that it poses
a problem. On the one hand people are saying that an educational facility
would afford more classroom space, which would certainly be a positive.
But, the thing that is always the biggest challenge, it seems, is that
Hello,
I am going to convention this year because it is being held 45 min from my
home and I'll likely take the local train. I saved up my mad money for a
year to just cover the registration costs and it still ended up being more
than I thought. If I had travel expenses on top of hotel than I
What would be an example of a Con that costs $150 or less and where you
could take a dozen classes? What kind of classes would they be? How long
would each class be?
Devon
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A half-serious thought: Perhaps a campground for lacemakers?
One very big lace-in in a field in summer with the classes in the airy
tents used for summer craft fairs and heritage events.
Hmm, Lacestock...
(with nice facilities).
It seems there is a compromise whatever the venue for a major lace
Yes, I
In a message dated 4/22/2013 12:18:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
welshw...@gmail.com writes:
Many SciFi/Fantasy Conventions are much less than $150, and have the
programming (classes) as part of the entrance fee.
Now, there are a few differences though:
* Most of the
One more quick note:
And schools are planned with youngsters without walkers or canes
Yes, and also, when they built the college or school people were generally
smaller. I have attended conferences (Not IOLI) where quite a few people had
trouble getting into the shower stall, let alone
Hi Bronwen,
I think that you're comparing apples to oranges here. At a lacemaking
convention, people are paying experts to travel (many from Europe), stay at the
hotel and have their convention costs covered, as well as a teaching stipend.
The best and most sought-after teachers devote their
Oops, sorry about the previous accidental post.
I had been wondering if we were comparing the IOLI Convention with an
event like Comic Con in San Diego that draws 130,000 people to it and has a
regional economic impact of $162.8 million.
I have never been to one of these, but it seems as
Clay:
I completely understand, and put that in my email. The questions were,
What would be an example of a Con that costs $150 or less and where you
could take a dozen classes? What kind of classes would they be? How long
would each class be?
Yes, I know this is a lace list, but there are
Beg to differ, Clay.
Most of the panelists at SF/F cons are not being paid to be there by
anyone. They are self-employed authors, for the most part. Possibly, for
the larger conventions, editors might be reimbursed by their publishers for
attending, given the contacts they make with authors and
Hello,
While I was thinking of those kinds (like NewYork ComCon or SanDeago
ComCon) I was also thinking of writers retreats and literary conferences
I've been too/worked on.
GenCon and Life the Universe and Everything are the ones that come to
mind. I really didn't mean to start such a negative
Thanks to Bronwen for explaining the other cons. They may be as apples
to oranges, but people actually are comparing the cost of a Comic Con to
our convention. The previous poster is not the first that I have heard
express this thought. As John points out, the attendance at such an event is
So, as luck would have it, while thinking about this, I found a reference
to a QuiltCon that will be happening soon, while I was reading my feed on
Facebook.
http://www.quiltcon.com/conference/pricing-policies-and-rules/
Here is how they seem to have worked out paying the instructors as well as
Another thought: At the one and only convention I've attended, a highlight
for me was the IOLI AGM. I really found the proceedings interesting. It
might not be the most popular part of the entire convention, but isn't it a
priority of the event?
The options, especially classes, would make it more
This is quite interesting, since it is a comparable group. I do note that
they have sponsors including some sewing machine, thread and fabric
companies. They are encouraged to extend their reach to this emerging market
of
quilters. Their Four Day lecture pass $199 (no goodie bag) is
campground: mosquitoes, thunderstorms, tornados, 105 degree F
heatwave...
Lorelei
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Lace Days at the campground.
lrb
-Original Message-
From: Lorelei Halley
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 4:44 PM
To: lace@arachne.com
Subject: [lace] IOLI convention
campground: mosquitoes, thunderstorms, tornados, 105 degree F
heatwave...
Lorelei
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Lyn
I'm all for camping. My family did it when I was a teenager, and I enjoyed
it. But camping and lacemaking out of doors sounds like a really bad idea.
You may hit a 5 day stretch of good weather. But I spent about 8 years
doing outdoor craft shows every summer. When bad weather hits you
Dear Lorelei,
We got our wires crossed. I was referring to camping for accommodation, not
for the full convention. Under no circumstances do I think the IOLI
convention should be held out doors. Too much could go wrong. Fine for
some for accomodation, not fine for any other aspect of IOLI.
- Original Message -
From: John Mead johnbobm...@gmail.com
I guess what I'm wondering is if IOLI has any type of regional rotation on
where the convention occurs? ... Are there areas that just will
never have a chance to see IOLI unless they travel mega miles? I'd guess
the upper mountain
Karen Thompson karenhthomp...@gmail.com wrote:
Should the tour day be kept in the middle of the week where it requires
extra nights and meals whether you want to participate in a tour or not?
Many of us use Wednesday to catch up on 'homework' so we're ready to go
farther at the next day's
I am curious what other lace makers think about the IOLI Convention format
since the enrollment seems to be down this year. What could the reason
be? Is it too long to have a full week? and therefore too expensive both in
terms of days off and hotel and meal expenses? Or why do you think?
Karen
Hi Karen,
I like having a full week devoted to lacemaking, and I don't mind traveling a
ways. But what I definitely do not like is convention hotels with expensive
rooms, expensive and crowded restaurants, crowded elevators, and makeshift
classrooms in guest rooms.
Maybe the next
21, 2013 2:04 PM
To: Karen Thompson
Cc: Arachne
Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: IOLI Convention
Maybe the next convention host could book us all on a cruise ship! It
wouldn't cost any more, and might be a huge draw... Not to mention the
publicity it would give to lacemaking!
Clay
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I do not have any complaint about the convention being a week long. The only
reason I am not able to attend is the expense of flying, hotel and meals. If
the convention were within driving distance I would probably be able to manage
the other expenses.
Liz R
Raleigh, NC
Karen Thompson
Thank you to all who responded about my questions regarding the display area
at the IOLI Convention. As I tell my students (I am a middle school math
teacher), when all else fails, read the directions. :-) As was pointed out,
on the first page of Convention info in The Bulletin was the person to
Hello, all -
I've been reading messages on this list for quite some time, but
I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've posted.
I've been making bobbin
lace for a number of years, but this is my first time attending the IOLI
convention, coming up in just a week in Bethesda, MD. I have a
On the first page of the convention material in the Bulletin, Winter 2011,
there is a place where it says, to display lace, contact Sheila-Llyn Van
Nederveen at _display2011@juno.com_ (mailto:display2...@juno.com) .
I have displayed lace in the past, and as I recall, you have to tell them
, 50 miles northwest of Chicago, Illinois, USA
www.jblace.com
http://www.lacemakersofillinois.org
From: dmt11h...@aol.com dmt11h...@aol.com
To: jbl...@sbcglobal.net; lace@arachne.com
Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:18:13 PM
Subject: Re: [lace] IOLI Convention Lunch
I
Hi,
I understand from the Bethesda hosts that they do not have any Arachne members
attending the luncheon this year. I think a group of about 27 Arachne will be
getting together, so if we are doing anything such as an impromptu free raffle
we will have to organise it ourselves. I have a
I don't understand this because I signed up for the Arachne lunch and paid
for it, and my confirmation says that I am signed up for it.
Devon
In a message dated 7/21/2011 4:28:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jbl...@sbcglobal.net writes:
Hi,
I understand from the Bethesda hosts that they
Oops. I misread Janice's message. I guess it means that there are no
members of the hosting group attending the Arachne lunch, not that there are no
members of Arachne attending. Sorry.
Devon
In a message dated 7/21/2011 5:19:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dmt11h...@aol.com writes:
I
My daughter and I went to the convention this year in Portland. We want to
thank the people who did the convention. Everything was very well done
including the classes and tours. The hotel staff were super nice and the river
view was beautiful and peaceful. You thought of every thing
We are back home at last, after nearly 3 weeks in USA.
The first week was at Convention in Portland, and I thoroughly enjoyed every
moment.
Congratulations to the Portland Lace Group who hosted the event.
Also a big Thank You to everyone I met there for their friendship. My
husband was made
As Liz mentioned in her email:
Helen now owns the pillow I purchased which the Hosts so
kindly though of - the foam blocks were just the thing for travellers who
could not bring pillows with them.
I ordered a $5 piece of builders foam from the hosts at Portland, OR. Great
idea
for future
For future reference - some of the hard foams are self-smoothing if
you use a scrap of it to burnish the rough surface. Sandpaper will
work too or an emery board - the last being in every lacemaker's kit
yes? They come in so handy.
On 8/13/10, Janice Blair jbl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
commented
Thanks for the hint. I made enough mess on the bedroom carpet just cutting the
foam, can you image if I had used sandpaper. Luckily the maid had not done the
room yet. Will try to remember to add an emery board to my kit.
Janice
Janice Blair
Crystal Lake, 50 miles northwest of Chicago,
Try it some time anyway - as well it is usually self-magnetic, so you would
run a scrap around to collect the shreddies. Yes put newspaper down first
LOL.
On , Janice Blair jbl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Thanks for the hint. I made enough mess on the bedroom carpet just
cutting the foam,
Greetings,
I survived helping host the IOLI Convention in Oregon. From my
perspective, there was a great group of lacemakers attending. They were
from all over the USA, Canada, England, Malaysia, Australia and who knows
where else. On Wednesday, we had a visiting lacemaker from New Zealand.
I will be there, Janice, - and have booked in for the Arachne lunch, - and
the other dinners!
I have my bobbins wound, and my other class needs ready, too. I am doing
Milanese with Louise in the mornings, and Knotted lace with Elena in the
afternoons.
I am also sorting out my US dollars for
I got my letter from the Portland IOLI convention
Lucky people, I will have to wait another week or more to hear how my luck
runs!! Mail takes 7 - 10 days to get here.
Anyway, my UK Lace magazine arrived yesterday (Friday), so I still have some
of that to read!
I have just finished a 2 day
I got my letter from the Portland IOLI convention. I'm so excited! I've got
a full week of fun and interesting classes. Anybody else heard from Portland
yet?
Robin
Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
robinl...@socal.rr.com
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I got mine too! Boy did I schedule a really full week! See you there.
Lorri
I got my letter from the Portland IOLI convention. I'm so excited! I've
got a full week of fun and interesting classes. Anybody else heard from
Portland yet?
Robin
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Liz...and anyone else who has registered for IOLI this year,
The normal time schedule is for the teachers to have notification of whether or
not their classes are a 'go' by April 15. Once the classes are determined,
then the students should receive their confirmation letters with class info,
When do we hear what classes we have managed to get into for the Portland
IOLI convention? Do we get class requirements at the same time?
I have only been to one convention - as a Teacher, so it was all a bit
different!
I am so looking forward to the trip, and meeting as many of you as
I think I saw something about the Canadian Lace Guild having at table at
convention. Is that this year in LA or next year in Portland at the IOLI
convention?
Janice
Janice Blair
Crystal Lake, 50 miles northwest of Chicago, Illinois, USA
www.jblace.com
http://www.lacemakersofillinois.org
-
Hello Janice
The Canadian Lacemaker Gazette has booked a table in the vendor room for LA
this year ;)
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Janice Blair jbl...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
I think I saw something about the Canadian Lace Guild having at table at
convention. Is that this year in LA or next
On the registration form in the Bulletin it gives Feb 14 as the beginning
day of registration, with all entries before that given equal status to those
postmarked Feb. 14, if I am reading this correctly, although another reading
might be that Feb. 13 is the date by which the registration
I got my notification today! I'm in Anny's Binche class - my first choice!
I'm really excited about that!!
Clay
--
Clay Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA USA
-- Original message --
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I got my notification for this summer's IOLI convention. I'll be
Hi all,
I got my notification as well and I'm so happy!! I'm in the floral beds
class and the art nouveau class. August just can't come fast enough!!!
Cindy - in gray, cold Wisconsin
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I got my notification for this summer's IOLI convention. I'll be taking
Fiandra lace in the morning (with Bridget Cook) and Art Nouveau lace in the
afternoon (Debbie Beever). Anyone else get their notification?
Now I need to reserve a room.
Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
-
To
As you can see from my signature below, many of the class offerings at the IOLI
convention for August are full. We did have to cut some, so if you have not
sent your registration yet you might like to check what is available before
making your choice.
We hope to be able to send out our
Dear Spiders,
With all the talk about the OIDFA congress I hope you have all remembered that
we brought the date forward to send in your registrations to Land of Lincoln
Lacemakers for the IOLI convention in August. The date for mailing is now
FEBRUARY14, 2008. Yes, I was shouting. Just
It was several days before I returned to Arachne, so I thought people
had already said everything there was to say about the convention but
that's apparently not true. So this is my view of the event. Bottom
line, it was a great convention!
The Tatting Olympics were hilarious. I'm not much
I haven't seen a lot about he convention this year, so I thought I'd give
you one account.
Susan and I arrived about 5 minutes too late for early registration on
Saturday. The airlines had lost my luggage and her plane was late. She was
stuck in Chicago with Susie Johnson and several other
Gentle Spiders,
I'll be thinking of the week you all will be learning, visiting, laughing,
admiring, gossiping about who isn't there (me?), and I'll be missing you all so
much.
In late January, FH Clive was diagnosed with prostate cancer and surgery
couldn't get it all. So he has to begin
Hello Anita,
no, I am not happy enough to come again to the IOLI-meeting so I
couldn't visit any class there.
Beside several problems in our flat and the house with water I am
trying to work on my preparations for a class I'll held the next time
outside of Hamburg. And I try to finish my
I wish everyone well at this year's convention. Unfortunately, after
spending 7 years in Oklahoma, I have no desire to go to Tulsa in
August!! I'm saving up my money to go next year :D
--
Ruth R. in OH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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The list is a little quiet these days. Everyone must be busy making lace!
Is anyone else excited about the upcoming IOLI convention? Less than 2
weeks away!
This wil be my second convention, the first was in 2005 at Denver. It was
great!
Who else is going? What classes are you taking?
I'm taking the Withof class with Yvonne Scheele. Hope to meet lots of
Arachne's at the convention.
Carole
Dublin, OH USA
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I am sad to see that Holly Van Sciver, Susan Wenzel, and Susie Johnson are
missing from the list of teachers, and no Tønder class offered at all. :-(
Come to think of it, no Bucks either--and no Beds, right?
Yes, I know there are other great teachers, and some up-and-coming ones,
too. I'm
Being that I have signed up for the morning Russian
lace class at the 2006 IOLI convention, I'd like to
network with others regarding thread. If you have
received this class, please contact me privately.
Thank you in advance,
Sylvie
__
Do You
I have my class here at the moment and we were talking about IOLI Convention
for next year.
Some of them are considering joining IOLI with a view to participating, but a
question has just come up - if you want to go for one day, and not take a
course, but look around and go to the sales tables
In a message dated 9/4/2005 1:35:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No, the quality of the photography would be far too variable. One of
the (many) features of our classy Bulletin is the fine photography
in it. We wpuldn't want to sacrifice that. -- Aurelia
That's a
I'm finally getting around to posting my praise and thanks to the Rocky
Mountain Lace Guild for the great convention they put on for us all! Thanks
especially to Vasna Zago and Cynthia Tiger! So much has already been said, I
don't want to repeat, but a few comments:
I studied Tonder with Gunvor
Hi All, I'll add my two cents on the Convention in Denver too! A few days
after I got home I got a cold (a Vermont cold not an exotic airport illness)
so I'm just now feeling energetic! I also had a wonderful time! My
students were very enthusiastic and they learned a lot and all tried
Thanks, Patsy, for your report. I enjoyed being in class with you.
Things I learned at conference:
-Waiting for an elevator takes longer than walking down the stairs, but
with those pillows and bags, it's not worth it to walk. Start early. Be
patient.
-Watch the front desk at the hotel.
What a wonderful letter for those of us who couldn't go to
convention! Thank you for taking all that trouble to write it. --
Aurelia
Well, here's my adventures at the IOLI convention.
Left San Diego on Sat. Aug.27th. Sure helped to have someone push
me in a wheel chair through the
Hi Everyone,
I wanted to de-lurk long enough to say it was worth every penny to get to go!
It was my first convention, the RMLG did such a fantastic job, and i had two
phenomenal teachers (Sheila Wells- beginning Honiton, and Nancy Evans-
Beginning Needlelace) i am already planning on attending
I finally have the house tidy after being away for over a week but I still doze
off if I sit for any length of time. Convention really takes it out of you!!
I got my desired workshop Polychrome de Courselles with Pompi Parry and was not
disappointed. What a lovely woman and my kind of
Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Original Message]
From: Alice Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lace@arachne.com
Date: 8/9/2005 2:12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [lace] IOLI convention - more comments
Thanks, Patsy, for your report. I enjoyed being in class with you.
Things I learned
: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:35 PM
To: Clay Blackwell
Cc: Alice Howell; lace@arachne.com
Subject: Re: [lace] IOLI convention - more comments
The freight elevator sure was useful... Still, if we all
started using it, we'd just have 5 elevators
instead of 4, which wouldn't be that much
Thank you to ALL you lucky folks who got to attend the IOLI convention and
have been giving us the news about what went on. Keep the information going!!!
I'd like to hear from anyone who was in Lenka's wire lace class.
THANK YOU EVERYONE!
Hopefully those of us who had to sit out this
Hi All!
I got back from the IOLI convention and I had the most WONDERFUL time! I
kept looking around at all the stuff the RMLG (Rocky Mountain Lace Guild) were
doing to keep everything running smoothly and I was really impressed! On
Sunday night, they had the Pajama party. There were
Well, here's my adventures at the IOLI convention.
Left San Diego on Sat. Aug.27th. Sure helped to have someone push me in a
wheel chair through the airports. No problems on the flight. There were 7
of us from the Silvergate Lacers on the plane. We were all separated so we
couldn't cause
A great lace-endowed week has ended. The experiences are now memories, and
my bank account is a bit diminished. I really didn't need that new
pillow, but it kept tempting me all week. The 10% discount sign towards
the end of the week was too much to resist. Yes, I got it. It's small,
and
Having returned from the IOLI Convention, I would like
to say that it really was terrific. The Denver group
did a great job in preparing a wonderful week. From
my classes, to panning for gold, to meeting people, it
was a memorable week. It was a pleasure to talk with
Vasna Zago, Cindi Tiger,
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed my first day of my
first ever Convention (and yes, I'm working hard on the Committee :-) ).
It's been so exciting to meet friends I only know by email. The first
person I met today was Pene Piip - a fellow Aussie, and we've had so
Merlene wrote:
Is anyone from Spain coming here for the convention? I would love to meet up
with you if you are.
I do not know if anyone from Spain is going to IOLI convention, but I
have no possibility in this moment to go away on this trip to USA. Maybe
some day!
OTOH, I am glad you enjoy
Is anyone from Spain coming here for the convention? I would love to meet up
with you if you are.
Merlene
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Well, Pene - We will have dinner with you! Love to. It will be SO nice to
meet you in person!
Regards from Liz in Melbourne
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Hi All,
This strand made me smile a little!
My doctor - or one of the doctors in my practice - makes
educational/teaching videos, of all sorts of things - flower arranging,
pottery, painting, weaving - you name it he's done it.
But - several years ago, he caught me demonstrating lace at some
Actually to raise a valid question - or at least to me it is valid.
Is there any chance that *some* select classes could be video taped for the
OS lace makers who are not going to be attending - even if someone got Air
World to provide a free ticket and Accommodations Unlimited to give free
PROTECTED]
[Original Message]
From: Jenny Brandis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jean Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lace lace@arachne.com
Date: 3/27/2005 1:42:10 AM
Subject: Re: [lace] IOLI Convention
Actually to raise a valid question - or at least to me it is valid.
Is there any chance that *some* select
At 06:42 AM 3/26/2005, you wrote:
Actually to raise a valid question - or at least to me it is valid.
Is there any chance that *some* select classes could be video taped for
the OS lace makers who are not going to be attending -
I'm going to stick my neck out and answer on this. The answer is
Dear JoAnne (and other arachnids)-
We don't know yet which classes are full. We are still receiving registrations,
putting in people's first, second and third choices, and later on we will see
what has to be mooshed around. I can tell you that some classes will definitely
fill, though, so we will
That's a new - and very welcome - wrinkle; I can't remember receiving
one of those before (not that I've been to all that many Conventions
g), but I appreciate it.
Brilliant idea, Vasna, thanks! And thank the rest of the group; am
looking forward to be welcomed to Colorado in August :)
T,
The Keystone Lace Guild did this last year also. I
thought it was a very nice touch. It makes waiting a
little easier to handle; something to look forward to!
Diane Williams
Galena, Illinois USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Tamara P Duvall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gentle Spiders,
Someone
Gentle Spiders,
Someone asked recently (can't remember who), when we'll be notified
about our class asignments. Well, today, I got a card from the RMLG
(the organising group) which says:
The Rocky Mountain Lace Guild has received your registration for the
2005 IOLI Convention. We will be
Moved to chat so I could maunder:
At 04:57 PM 3/16/05 -0800, Weronika Patena wrote:
Don't schools/universities do that sort of thing in the US? That's how most
of
my workshops (non-lace) worked in Poland.
I've been to six conventions in my life: three GEARs, two NSS Conventions, and
an
This will probably sound really stupid to most of you (if so it'll give you
a laugh), but the last time I went out of the UK was in 1959, when I walked
out of a wooden shed, across the tarmac and up a short flight of steps onto
a 36-seater plane to go to Austria. That was the one and only time I
. Remember,
don't embarrass your Mother. ; )
Lordy, I'm excited about Denver!!
Clay
Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Original Message]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lace@arachne.com
Date: 3/17/2005 2:09:29 PM
Subject: Re: [lace] IOLI Convention -location, location - and price
I am responding to Bev's questions and some of Veronics's observations.
I was 40 when I went to my first convention in Bethesda. My kids were old
enough to take care of themselves and that was my only week of vacation for the
year (Scrooge for a boss). My family was very supportive. Since
In a message dated 3/17/05 8:39:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The needs of younger people and the needs of
older people are somewhat in conflict. Pity the poor organizers of
conventions.
Devon
So true, Devon. To be honest, OIDFA Prague was not perfect or
In a message dated 3/17/2005 1:30:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
May I propose a new subject? Favorite Lace Convention Memory!
OK. My favorite lace convention memory is when I turned to the person on my
left at the banquet and said, I can't imagine why they
Margot wrote:
Looking back, I think the
reasons for the difference were: 1. Because the IOLI conventions are
held in 5 star hotels, they're expensive.
I have been to all conventions, except Puerto Rico, since the one held in Ann
Arbor. I have no recollection of staying at a 5 star hotel
On Wed, Mar 16, 2005 at 04:50:17PM -0800, Janice Blair wrote:
Finding a hotel to have the convention in Chicago at all, let alone at a
reaonsable nightly rate was impossible. None of them wanted to give up so
many rooms for the use of workshops.
Don't schools/universities do that sort of
On Tuesday, March 15, 2005, at 06:59 PM, Alice Howell wrote:
I, myself, could not attend until I retired.
Contrary to Alice, I found it easier to attend before I retired. I
attended my IOLI conventions in my 40s, then took a very early
retirement at 52 and haven't attended since. Looking
Well, Weronika...
Are I.O.L.I. Conventions worth it? I don't know if I can add anything to
Alice's lovely and thorough dissertation, but here is another perspective.
The first time I attended a convention it was in New Jersey in 1991. I had
very recently moved from Texas to Massachusetts and
Weronika,
I heartily echo everything that everyone has said
about attending the IOLI Convention. I've only been
to two, Denver will be my third, and I have been
looking forward to this for the entire year. I'm
lucky to have an understanding husband who encourages
and makes sacrifices so that I
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