I haven't read the refutation of Taubes (I likely will) but here I write a
little bit of introduction (re-introduction) to Grant Petersen's world and
my experiences, kind-of in order. If can be made-sense-of it could add to
this discussion.
=
I'm an old racer from the 80s
Yes, Patrick my wife is Filipina and she eats heroic amounts of rice! More in
one sitting than I do in about a month!
Speaking of pod casts, I know he's awful trendy these days, but I've been
watching the Joe Rogan Experience for over a year now. His topics can be all
over the place, but he's
In case anyone enjoys podcasts, the following three from the BBC have
incredible insights into microbiome and related matters.
1) Hunting with the Hazda
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p057w3nm
2) Heath lessons with the Hazda https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p058jh5q
3) Gut Feeling
Patrick: "I agree that what works for one person or one race may not be
the same for another."
My mother is 99 and still healthy and mentally sharp; she still lives in
the house she was born in. Her diet is poor, heavy on starchy sweets -
sometimes when I visit we both have nothing but pie
I've had C-Diff twice in my life, and almost died the second time. I would
gladly welcome "eating shit" if it cured that horrific infection.
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That gives a new meaning to the vulgar phrase, "Eat shit."
Back to rice. Me age'd mum lived to almost 92, and controlled Type 2
diabetes for almost 20 years by diet and (very modest) exercise --
principally diet. She had had a very minor heart attack close to age 70,
and obeying the medical
The BBC carried a story about this a while back, going as far to report on
fecal transplants to help with c difficile infection.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-43815369
Gut fauna/micro biome health is becoming better understood.
IanA
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Sorry, last post
I just wanted to mention, the latest, greatest and still in it's infancy is the
study of the stomach biome. In the very near future they will be able to sample
the bacteria in your stomach and either selectively remove bad bacteria OR
introduce bacteria to counteract different
I apologize for all the typos in the above post; comes from typing on a phone.
I was interested in Grant's comment about overweight women and overweight
children; hard to think there wouldn't be some correlation, but again it could
vary with genetics. My mother was overweight as is my eldest
Whew, wish I had time to dig through all the responses here; it's all very
interesting, but I just wanted to throw a couple things out there.
My wife is Asian and while she is snall, I see her weight fluctuates wildly be
10% or more over a matter of days! I although overweight; don't have much
I don't doubt what you say about your colleagues. But it is also true that
historically the vast majority of Chinese people couldn't afford meat as a
daily diet. They didn't get their calories from meat (too expensive) or
vegetables (not many calories). Rather, they got the calories either from
It must be genetics. I don't doubt the efficacy of the Taube method,
but I've seen too many people who eat mostly carbs, sometimes polished
rice. My mother, after being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes over 10
years ago, and who also had one heart attack, switched to a very low
fat, low salt, high
A day or two ago I got a PM from a woman ... and I can't find it. Want
to reply. If you are she---well...you were pre-D with 110, now down
around 85, lost ten, energy issue. If it's you, that'll be enough to
trigger the mem...and then, send me again, pleasesorry. Thanks. G
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Hi Patrick.yea I work with about thirty Vietnamese/Chinese and I
see what they eat everyday. Mostly meat or seafood/shellfish and or
eggs plus some kind of weird vegetabley soup like stuff they dribble
over a tiny ice cream scoop size ball of rice. Most rarely (if ever)
eat sugar in the form
This has been a very interesting thread to follow and I’ve been reluctant to
join in as I feel I’ve nothing terribly relevant to add to the many voices
which have already spoken here.
However, I think it is too easy to overstate the detrimental qualities of
certain foods:
. . . obesity isn't the
I too disagree.since the Taubes idea as I read it is to (not) eat
unhealthy fats (trans fats etc.), processed foods, low fiber starches
etc.what I get from reading Taubes/Marks Daily Apple/ Paleo etc.
is to eat high protein, good fats, fresh vegetables (the leafy green
kind)
Taubes says...according to the studies he's read (as a science writer
and a health researcher)...that the studies that suggest high fat
diets increasing cholesterol, triglycerides, and so on...are flawed.
Not because they don't point the way he wants 'em to, but because they
haven't isolated the
Curious regarding Taubeser's take on the following:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/health/19brody.html?_r=1scp=1sq=still%20counting%20calories%20your%20weight%20loss%20planst=cse
(or the direct article link at
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1014296?query=TOC#t=articleTop)
Yes, for some it is easier than others. Been trying to decide whether
to participate in either of these threads for a while. Will admit
that, first off, this whole concept is making me question as an
(severely) overweight person I should even be riding and/or owning a
Rivendell bike. Maybe at
On Aug 27, 11:24 am, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote:
If you can do it by exercising hard and long, and will power, and calorie
restriction---
and you can maintain that without feeling like the fat-wolf is at the
door---that's great.
insulin: if it's really the key, and Taubes is right, i
I hear you Eric.
Like you, Scott, and I'm sure others who care a great deal about this
subject have largely done, I've been hesitant to post about it with
people who don't face the same challenges and are only mildly
interested. I choose not to debate my issues here, but I want you to
know that
On Aug 30, 8:04 am, Patrick in VT swing4...@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 27, 11:24 am, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote:
If you can do it by exercising hard and long, and will power, and calorie
restriction---
and you can maintain that without feeling like the fat-wolf is at the
I went from around 230 and completely out of shape to my current 175 (@
6'4, maintained for 3 years) by switching from a typical American diet, to
a vegetarian diet that included a lot of whole grains, and riding a lot
more. Somehow the widely accepted methods worked for me.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011
Rex, re-read Grants post above.. ; )
On Aug 29, 2:06 pm, Rex Kerr rexk...@gmail.com wrote:
I went from around 230 and completely out of shape to my current 175 (@
6'4, maintained for 3 years) by switching from a typical American diet, to
a vegetarian diet that included a lot of whole
I can dig it Scott.and I have to tell you I have been inspired by
your determination. Your willingness to keep at it day after day,
especially while enduring the negative and sometimes even smug
comments from others. I know what gets me fat and I know when I'm
weak. I've been enduring the
A man at our church was hugely obese, probably 400 lb at about 6', for
years until he told himself, eat less and be more active. I think he
just took daily walks on a strict high veg diet. He dropped an amazing
amount of weight, in under 2 years, to about 200.
OTOH, there is the rather well known
With the variety of people and eating habits exercise habits success
and failures with fat-gain/loss, it is easy and normal for the
discussion to lapse into we're all different, because in so many
obvious ways we ARE that. The hope that Taubes offers is based on how
we're all similar...and
Hey Patrick much of it was downhill and I had a tailwind but yea I was
feeling energetic but I have averaged 20 mph for ten miles on rolling
hills (taken from a calibrated bike speedo thing)...these days I just
use my watch and do the math with a pencil and paper since I know the
distances. Keeps
Ding ding ding...we have a winner! It's funny we are writing and
reading endless books to end up back at this basic idea.
ride more, eat less It's that simple.
On Aug 12, 2:00 pm, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote:
One huge difference between our mid-20th-century-on and the lives of
Have started Taube's book and find it interesting: clearly more is
involved that what goes in and what goes out -- tho' of course, you
can fatten yourself by overeating.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Kris kkjellqu...@gmail.com wrote:
Ding ding ding...we have a winner! It's funny we are
On Aug 13, 3:50 am, Brian Hanson stone...@gmail.com wrote:
Exercise may be good for your muscles and a way to release
stress, but it ain't a diet. Exercise is a fad, a crutch for those with
time/money to kill - like most of us.
Of course exercise isn't a diet - rather, it's part of healthy
Taubes stuffs---
There's lots of good stuff in the Red book, as readers are finding
out, but the subtext is even more world-changing than the surface
stuff. It's not super sub...he implies as much...but once you digest
it all and buy into it, your view of the world (at least, of fat
people)
On Aug 26, 11:43 am, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote:
Every television commercial for Honey Nut Cheerios reinforces
the wrong message.
just about every television commercial reinforces the wrong message,
regardless of subject matter. Honey Nut Cheerios seem relatively
innocuous when it comes to
If you don't eat meat, can you eat as Taubes prescribes?
And... if you want to get the word out in a non-confrontational way,
you could print tee-shirts with a written explanation on the back.
People will read it in the supermarket checkout line. That's where
I've gotten 90% of the comments on
That's the point of the book: this isn't universally accepted. We've been
pushed this viewpoint for 30 years, but where's the great downsizing of
America? One of Taubes main points is that the science behind low fat/high
fiber/calories in/calories out is very, very poor.
Eric Daume
Dublin, OH
On
On Fri, 2011-08-26 at 17:11 -0400, Eric Daume wrote:
That's the point of the book: this isn't universally accepted. We've
been pushed this viewpoint for 30 years, but where's the great
downsizing of America? One of Taubes main points is that the science
behind low fat/high fiber/calories
I think not.and this is coming from an exercise junkie with a
whole foods, half hippie wife and years of trying
everythingweighing my food, portion control, whole grains, calorie
counting, tofu, low fat, largely vegetarian at times, extreme exercise
(do you want me to explain the volume
I would like to know some of the meals/foods people who are following the
Taubes book and his philosophy are eating. Anything really special that you
have made that made your taste buds go wow, that was good?
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I've been trying to post on this subject since it started with no
luck..maybe thus time. The Taubes/Paleo/Marks daily apple approach has
been working for us we've lost fat weight, feel better and we've tried other
approaches over the years. These ideas make sense and are very similar to
It is possible that at a paleo diet symposium in Los Angeles last
week, Guyenet suggested that we got fat because food tastes too good,
so we eat too much. And that Taubes publicly asked him how his theory
could explain fat Pima indians or any other impoverished population
without a food industry
Reading all this with interest...here's the exchange Grant mentioned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hzoFgwFeMQfeature=player_embedded
At the end of his 'lecture' Taubes states I recommend in the future
you should pay attention to populations that might refute your
hypothesis rather than
I think it is necessary to read the book before commenting on whether or not
Taubes addresses these things. He does. At length. With example after
example. At least half of the book is spent refuting the paradigm/mindset
that is being espoused in this thread by the people that have not read
The discussion has been interesting enough that I, for one, will
indeed do just that. For the record, I was responding to others'
paraphrases of Taube's ideas which did not mention native differences
in metabolism; that idea does make sense at first hearing.
I remain skeptical of one fits all
Thanks Zack! This is _precisely_ what I've been wanting to say, but was
on the verge of a tirade. Arguing on the internet, in any form, is
often dangerous and always stupid unless all parties are equally
informed and open to having their beliefs toppled. I've been quietly
humbled many times
On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:03 AM, David Faller wrote:
Arguing on the internet, in any form, is often dangerous and always stupid
unless all parties are equally informed and open to having their beliefs
toppled.
Arguing period, as any ten minutes spent watching a political debate will
On Saturday, August 13, 2011 11:15:13 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
Perhaps I should and I will. But some of his positions (carb = bad) as
presented in this thread simply don't correspond to history. The
Chinese are getting fat from Big Macs and other animal fare, not from
their
I bought the book and started reading it, following the diet for the most
part. He really doesn't preach anti-carb, but rather anti-processed foods,
anti-calorie heavy, nutrient poor foods like white flour and sugar. The
diet has made me feel not only more energetic, but all around healthier.
I've been having trouble posting for several days now and hope this makes it
through..We've been using the Taubes/Paleo/ Marks Daily Apple
approach to eating and I have lost 24 pounds since last March. I still cheat
with wine and chocolate but have for the most part eliminated grains
Patrick -
I am glad you are going to read the book! I bet you will enjoy. I look
forward to hearing your thoughts after you check it out.
Good stuff.
-Zack
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It may be time to let this thread peter out. But, briefly, for those of you
interested in the thermodynamics question, Taubes addresses it too.
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I read Taubes most recent book in its entirety. There is no question
that you can lose weight on a low carb diet but the problem is most
people can't stick with it. The yearning for a bagel, pizza, etc..
will return. This is why the low carb industry of 10 years ago
failed. MD's didn't destroy
This is the idea that I was protesting against: it reads to me as a
blanket assertion that carbs are unhealthy. But billions have for
millennia lived principally on carbs and haven't been more unhealthy
than anyone else (not that there were many people left over after you
counted the mostly carbs
Wow..lots of reading...I don't any more now than I did a week ago.
What I do know...if I ride more, eat better, and have fewer beers my
pants fit better and I beat a few more friends to the top of hills.
I'm pretty sure I'm done cutting things out of my life...pizza is
yummy, french fries can't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXa39ICIrk
This is a quick watch and gets to a lot of the points in the book. Worth a
few minutes if you don't have the time or inclination to buy and read the
book. BTW - I know people who exercise way more than me, but they are
double my weight. Exercise may be
Actually, the bulk of the Taubes book is a review of hundreds of obeisity
studies from around the world over the last 250 years or so. Taubes is not
making any new or novel scientific claims, but rather summarizing the
conclusions of those studies and pointing out that today's dominant
Since the subject of Taubes' book finally came up on a thread I might
as well check to say that I've been on it for several months now and
have lost roughly 14 pounds. I'm 5' 9 and weighed around 191; I've
dropped to the mid-170's and am aiming for the low 170's. I'm wearing
clothing now that I
I'm with Zack on this... I don't claim to know or understand the underlying
processes but I made the switch from a carb-heavy diet to a carb-lite diet
in May (after seeing the Riv Taubes vid) and lost 25 pounds making no other
changes. I've eased up a bit to a carb-medium diet (150grams/day
Your experience is very similar to mine. I bought and read both of
Taubes' books. I do not follow his recommendations to the letter, by
any means, but I did quit most sugar and most carbs. I still have a
sandwich now and then, and I eat some chips here and there. I still
love beer, but I
I think you should actually read Why We Get Fat. What you are
asserting is largely refuted in the book.
On 8/12/2011 11:00 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
One huge difference between our mid-20th-century-on and the lives of
even relatively recent forbears is simply the absence of physical
activity.
I don't want to prolong this somewhat OT debate beyond the limits of
reason or good taste, but I have to say that the idea that carbs as
such are bad for you and unnatural to human beings simply doesn't
correspond with millennia of human history. Again, it wasn't the
Chinese, Filipinos, Africans,
Perhaps I should and I will. But some of his positions (carb = bad) as
presented in this thread simply don't correspond to history. The
Chinese are getting fat from Big Macs and other animal fare, not from
their traditional rice. And I don't think you can refute the idea that
minimal exercise is
As I understand it, it isn't that carbs are bad. The problem is the quantity
and type being consumed. Easily available fructose seems to be particularly
problematic, whether it comes in the form of sugar, high fructose corn
syrup, or juice drinks. Interesting research on this is being done by
Yeah, I was going to chime in on this, too. It's mainly the highly
processed food that we eat that creates most of the problems. And the
sugars, according to Taubes anyway. BTW, one more item in addition to
my previous post about the diet: I used to have constant heartburn
issues, so much so
On Aug 13, 2011, at 2:20 PM, George Schick wrote:
It's mainly the highly processed food that we eat that creates most of the
problems. And the sugars, according to Taubes anyway.
It's probably high glycemic foods in general, from his perspective, because
these are quickly absorbed into the
I've been a calorie counter for 40 years. At 62, I'm six feet tall
and weigh 140lbs. I drink beer every day and eat pasta and pizza at
least a couple times a week. The problem with Taubes is that his diet
is too restrictive. Taubes states that low carb diets failed because
doctors discounted
I agree with Patrick on this . No one knows. nor will they ever know
the entire truth about food and our relationships to it . . . . because it
is ... and always will be ever changing. There is no absolute truth
just what we each choose to believe.
We can thrive on just about
On Aug 13, 3:12 pm, IPATOM tomdu...@hotmail.com wrote:
Calories in/calories out - it really is that simple.
Please read Taubes before making that statement which modern nutrition
research is proving wrong.
Glen, who loosely follows Taubes mostly follows Sisson (thanks Grant!)
and easily
I am happy to let the scientists battle this one out! I will say that I
have lost 20 pounds now in about 8 weeks, and my wife has lost about 10. I
had way more to lose before starting a diet that is higher in fat, filled
with vegetables, and some fruits than she did. It is working for me.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41335973@N00/6029700830/
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On Aug 12, 2011, at 9:27 AM, Zack wrote:
I am happy to let the scientists battle this one out! I will say that I have
lost 20 pounds now in about 8 weeks, and my wife has lost about 10. I had
way more to lose before starting a diet that is higher in fat, filled with
vegetables, and some
One huge difference between our mid-20th-century-on and the lives of
even relatively recent forbears is simply the absence of physical
activity. I remember, as a boy in the late '50s and early '60s how
road crews would use picks, shovels and hand-controlled jackhammers,
while road crews today for
I would suggest reading the book. There is lots of information about
activity levels having no direct correlation to obesity (other than as we
get fatter we are less active, and get more tired when we do an activity,
which then leads to us eating more). Worth a read, it will take an
I don't doubt Taube's ideas work for some, even for many; what I doubt
(from other things I have read and from what I simply have seen in NA,
Europe, Asia and Africa) is that it contains the entire truth about
nutrition and related health. Again, there is simply too much variety
across the world
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