Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 6/11/2013 2:58 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100 place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature class P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow has 7,000. The TIGER import broug

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N wrote: > Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing or a > survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of questionable > license. or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible? cheers, Martin _

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Note that, if not all of the subdivision has been developed as yet, the residents may not be entirely sure where the undeveloped subdivision land ends and other, adjoining, undeveloped land begins, so you might need to check with the company that is developing the subdivision. Martin Koppenhoe

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

That's basically what I am proposing. On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > > On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N wrote: > > > Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing or a > survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of ques

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I think this is a problem more people have. In the GNIS import for populated places, a lot of apartment buildings and trailer parks are grouped together with 'real' populated places while they are really separate things for all intents and purposes. But that may also have a lot to do with lack of r

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I think this is a good idea but have some suggested considerations. If I remember correctly, MapRoulette 2 has the ability to localize the challenge, correct? If/when is that available I think that would be a great challenge, just a simple “verify this is the proper neighborhood name and appro

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

> > > On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N wrote: > > > Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing or a > survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of questionable > license. > > or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible? Sometimes subdivision

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

My house is technically in a subdivision named Murray Heights, but I have only seen that name on the deed, and on maps. In the 21 years I have lived here, I have never heard anyone use that name. The subdivision was built in the late 1950s, and, unlike some other local subdivisions, there aren

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Russ -- Yes, MR2 will have the ability to work on a specific location (likely to be specified as a point + radius, or bbox). What do you mean by correlating place values, correlating with what? Rural areas are not as important for neighborhood coverage I would say. On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:37 PM

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Yea, I think this is where sources like Geonames and Zillow, which are built (to an extent) based on actual perceived names rather than official ones, could be so valuable - and why GNIS populated places are detrimental to OSM map quality, at least in many urban areas. On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:5

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

: OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow Russ -- Yes, MR2 will have the ability to work on a specific location (likely to be specified as a point + radius, or bbox). What do you mean by correlating place values, correlating with what? Rural areas are not as important for

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

As for Bryce's observation - Zillow does not have overlapping polygons as far as I know, so it is by its nature sort of rigid - but then again this is probably what they require for their use case, as there would be no way to disambiguate. Interesting in this context is the much-quoted example of

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > As for Bryce's observation - Zillow does not have overlapping polygons as > far as I know, so it is by its nature sort of rigid - but then again this > is probably what they require for their use case, as there would be no way > to disamb

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I think point features are definitely the way to go here - areas are nice but have the drawback of being to rigid a delineation, as well as being more difficult to map and maintain. On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

e is no naming 'creep' as someone raised in this thread.  Mark From: Martijn van Exel To: Russell Deffner Cc: OSM US Talk Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow Russ -- Yes, MR2 will have the abi

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I'm also in favor of using points for neighborhoods. Exact boundaries are extremely subjective in some places. In places where they actually are well-defined perhaps they are also different conceptually? For example, in NYC we have fuzzy neighborhoods, of course, but we also have "community board"

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100 place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature class P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow has 7,000. Both these data sets are provided under (different) CC licenses. Coul

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

But how would such a thing be tagged? For instance, here in Portland, we have defined neighborhoods, which have neighborhood associations, and a city bureau (the Office of Neighborhood Involvement) dedicated to working with those organizations. They are, in a very real, if not technically lega

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Nathaniel Kelso & David Blackman's presentation at #sotmus on Quattroshapes might offer some guidance, at least with respect to a method. They used Foursquare checkins and geotagged Flickr photos to calculate some boundaries. Now, I am more likely to check in at Arlington (my city) than I am in Eas

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100 > place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature class > P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow has 7,000. > Both th

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

> > One last thought. nextdoor.com is attempting to build on the concept of > neighborhoods. I wonder if we could partner with them to get more help > identifying their neighborhoods. Similar to Steve Coast's app that asked > people to pick the front door of a house. Imagine if we had a bunch

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > You'd end up with this: > > http://bostonography.com/images/misc/neighborhoods_labeled.jpg > > Discussed here: > > http://bostonography.com/2012/wanted-your-map-of-boston-neighborhoods/ > True. I suppose part of it is wanting to be associ

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Martin, In many Los Angeles neighborhoods, asking residents is not feasible. Most are in cars, not walking. Some people wouldn't talk to you, and many wouldn't know, given the transient nature of some neighborhoods. On the other hand, the City of Los Angeles has been identify

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > Hiya, > I am not proposing an import, but a local MapRoulette > challenge might work where people with local knowledge accept / reject > proposed neighborhood points, or something along those lines. I think neighborhoods are not somethi

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: > But how would such a thing be tagged? > By boundary, what's the next level below city? > For instance, here in Portland, we have defined neighborhoods, which have > neighborhood associations, and a city bureau (the Office of Neighborhoo

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I'm really intrigued by this conversation. Neighborhood identity is subjective - collectively defined by residents and stakeholders (businesses, and other organizations) within and outside of the neighborhood as well as governments, politicians, and the media. Nonetheless, I believe they belong in

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:47 PM, william skora wrote: > Given the subjective, fluid nature of neighborhoods - especially > boundaries - where one neighborhood ends and one begins - may change from > person to person, they are best represented as a single node in the area > where there is greatest

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:38:29 -0500 > From: Paul Johnson > To: Darrell Fuhriman > Cc: Martijn van Exel , OpenStreetMap Talk-US Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

It might be best to allow neighborhoods to be either polygons or points. Some neighborhoods have a customary boundary line, such as a particular street or waterway. Some are legally defined. Some just represent an approximate location, meaning that a point will work better than a polygon. In

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Clifford Snow wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:47 PM, william skora > wrote: >> >> Given the subjective, fluid nature of neighborhoods - especially >> boundaries - where one neighborhood ends and one begins - may change from >> person to person, they are best

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I think neighborhood polygons are a bad idea for OSM, mostly for the reasons Serge outlines. (I think most administrative area polygons should not be in OSM, but that's quite another matter.) The fluid spatiality (erm.. yea) of neighborhoods makes a point feature much more appropriate. On Tue,

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

stevea, Great work that you've done in your area with the neighborhood classification. I would just caution that deriving Neighborhood boundaries solely from the governments could be problematic because they don't represent the other stakeholders (mentioned earlier) and in the case of Clevela

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Am 12.06.2013 um 03:06 schrieb Clifford Snow : > One reason for including boundaries is querying to determine what exists in a > neighborhood. Another is to see the result from a search using nominatim. A > single node doesn't really tell much of a story, while a boundary give a > better scop

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Am 12.06.2013 um 06:21 schrieb Serge Wroclawski : > Your reply really doesn't address what William is saying, which is > that neighbourhood boundaries are subjective. I think we all agree > that neighbourhoods are useful, but they're worse than political > boundaries in terms of being unsurveyab

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > Your reply really doesn't address what William is saying, which is > that neighbourhood boundaries are subjective. I think we all agree > that neighbourhoods are useful, but they're worse than political > boundaries in terms of being unsu

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I agree with the advantage of polygons when performing queries of the type 'show me all bakeries in this neighborhood'. This will however only work if that neighborhood is clearly defined in terms of boundaries. If we agree that this is not the case, we are just going to be creating confusion and p

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Interesting discussion, I've been working at thinking how to approach doing this in my hometown of Tempe, AZ http://www.tempe.gov/index.aspx?page=792 They classify neighborhoods two ways, homeowners associations (the classic HOA) and neighborhood associations. The former is usually set up by the

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > Could we use either Geonames or Zillow to drive improvement to > neighborhood name coverage in OSM? > Using Zillow wouldn't be an improvement. Where I live, Zillow has the same incorrect information as the TIGER CDP (which I removed fro

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Martijn writes: I agree with the advantage of polygons when performing queries of the type 'show me all bakeries in this neighborhood'. This will however only work if that neighborhood is clearly defined in terms of boundaries. If we agree that this is not the case, we are just going to be cre

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

2013/6/12 stevea > Is Jane Street (NYC) "in" Chelsea or Greenwich Village? Well, kind of > both. This is where nodes work better. > well, they could also overlap (so you could see from the polygons that there is a certain area which somehow "belongs" to both neighbourhoods (and probably to n

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Clifford Snow wrote: > I agree that most neighborhood boundaries are subjective. Of the cities I've > lived in, some neighborhoods are clearly define, usually by natural or man > made artifacts, others are definitely fluid. When importing addresses into > Seattle

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > The answer to #1 is "Yes", neighborhood data is useful. > > The answer to #2 is "No", for the reasons outlined. > These are *your* answer these questions. I disagree with your conclusion on #2, for reasons outlined. -- Martijn van Exe

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I support this. Go to Google Maps and search for SoMa, South Beach, and Rincon Hill. The office I am sitting in right now is in all of those polygons. Some cities formally define their neighborhoods, and OSM could use that data. Some neighborhoods are more informal, and those may make sense as nod

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > These are *your* answer these questions. I disagree with your conclusion on > #2, for reasons outlined. Let's not get personal here... I don't see how any of the discussions here have addressed some basic questions, so please explain it

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > > 1. How can someone survey a neighborhood? It seems that in many cases, > neighborhoods are subjective, and people may disagree on where it is, > and both be right. How does your proposal address this issue? > It's the same as named pla

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > > > These are *your* answer these questions. I disagree with your conclusion > on > > #2, for reasons outlined. > > Let's not get personal here... > (Please don't force me to re

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

David Blackman and Nathaniel Kelso et al. have worked tirelessly on building tools to make border polygons and tools around them. Let's use those tools for this sort of stuff and use the resulting shapes when rendering OSM data. I'm not familiar with these people or the tools you mention. May

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

* quattroshapes , and a talkKelso and Blackman gave about it last weekend at SOTMUS. * you are here , which is a bit different but has a similar intent. eric On T

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I missed the quattroshapes talk, and did not get to talk to Aaron about you are here. I am now convinced (and also excited) that there's better ways to do this than duplicating this effort in OSM. On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Eric Brelsford wrote: > * quattroshapes

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

The reasons *not* to use the Zillow dataset are clear: nobody but zillow can edit it, and it is based on low quality TIGER data. The flickr dataset is similarly suspect, if this is any indication: http://boundaries.tomtaylor.co.uk/#23512042 It shows San Francisco's "*SoMA*" (South of Market) exten

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

2013/6/14 Bryce Nesbitt > The OSM node could even link to a wiki page where the neighborhood can be > described in all its richness and complexity. you could do this with wikipedia links. My usecase would be to enter an address in a search field and get information about the neighbourhoods the

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > 2013/6/14 Bryce Nesbitt > >> The OSM node could even link to a wiki page where the neighborhood can be >> described in all its richness and complexity. > > > you could do this with wikipedia links. My usecase would be to enter an >

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 15/giu/2013, at 08:06, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > But if you insist :-) here's a way to ensure they don't overlap. actually my point is they should overlap in some of the cases that were discussed here cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

I wonder if it time to accept that we are unable to reach a consensus. Can we agree to let the local community decide which way to proceed? They are in the best position to know the issues surrounding neighborhood borders. There didn't seem to be any show-stoppers in the arguments for nodes/polygo

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Clifford Snow wrote: > > I wonder if it time to accept that we are unable to reach a consensus. On what issue are we unable to reach a consensus? The original proposer, Martijn, after reading the arguments put forth, has decided he agrees with both Ian and myself

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Clifford Snow wrote: > > I wonder if it time to accept that we are unable to reach a consensus. Can > we agree to let the local community decide which way to proceed? They are > in the best position to know the issues surrounding neighborhood borders. > There didn

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Your entire argument is based on the premise that neighborhood boundaries are subjective and unverifiable, and while that may be true for your neighborhood it is not true for mine. So why shouldn't I map what I can easily verify on the ground? Bryce On Jun 15, 2013, at 7:54 AM, Serge Wroclawsk

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Bryce Cogswell wrote: > Your entire argument is based on the premise that neighborhood boundaries > are subjective and unverifiable, and while that may be true for your > neighborhood it is not true for mine. So why shouldn't I map what I can > easily verify on th

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

My neighborhood is West of Market. Market Street is the eastern boundary. Lake Washington (shoreline) is to the south and west. Juanita Bay Park, which is named after the Juanita neighborhood to the north, is the northern boundary. All these are observable boundaries and I don't believe they are

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

My city kindly places identification signs along the borders of many of the defined neighborhoods. Other neighborhoods are coterminous with a particular subdivision. Still others like "midtown" are mean whatever the person saying it wants it to mean. The former are reasonable to map. The latte

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

Bryce Cogswell writes: Your entire argument is based on the premise that neighborhood boundaries are subjective and unverifiable, and while that may be true for your neighborhood it is not true for mine. So why shouldn't I map what I can easily verify on the ground? +1: this is true for me a

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 3:35 PM, stevea wrote: > +1: this is true for me as well, so I agree. Well, it is verifiable by > what our local government says (through the consensus of public process, > like City Council meetings) via polygons, AND by the more vaguely-defined > but still useful nodes

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:35 PM, stevea wrote: > For the former, I don't need a painted line on the ground, just what the > City GIS department publishes on the open Internet, after these > lines/polygons/neighborhood boundaries were reached by public process. There is a growing number of OSM fo

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 6/15/2013 9:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:35 PM, stevea wrote: For the former, I don't need a painted line on the ground, just what the City GIS department publishes on the open Internet, after these lines/polygons/neighborhood boundaries were reached by public pr

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 15/giu/2013, at 21:16, Ian Dees wrote: > What are you using to verify your neighborhood boundaries? Is there literally > a line on the pavement showing the boundaries? the boundaries of settlements and parts of them often follow natural and or man made limits (topography), but it might

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 2013-06-15 6:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:35 PM, stevea wrote: For the former, I don't need a painted line on the ground, just what the City GIS department publishes on the open Internet, after these lines/polygons/neighborhood boundaries were reached by public p

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Nathan Mills wrote: > The sort of signs in the link below are precisely the sort of thing we put > in OSM, or at least have historically. > https://www.cityoftulsa.org/**community-programs/** > neighborhoods/neighborhood-**sign-guide.aspx

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

In Nashville, TN, where I live, most of the city's growth has been since World War II, and hence suburban in nature. Some subdivisions have permanent signs, some don't. Some have a discernable tree structure, some have a loose grid, a few areas have a rectilinear grid. Plus, some areas combi

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 2013-06-15 6:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:35 PM, stevea wrote: For the former, I don't need a painted line on the ground, just what the City GIS department publishes on the open Internet, after these lines/polygons/neighborhood boundaries were reached by public p

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

On 2013-06-15 6:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > There is a growing number of OSM folks in the United States (myself >>> included) who believe that government provided boundry data should be >>> used for data products such as rendered maps and geocoders, but do not >>> belong in OSM's core dataset

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

It's not about mapping the sign, it's about mapping the neighborhood based on the sign. We don't map speed limit signs, we map the speed limits on the roads based on the signs. We don't map interstate signs, we map the name of the interstate. We don't map individual trees, we map forests. We do

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

What a fantastic post! I am a neighborhood guru, as mapping subdivisions is part of my job description at Baltimore County Government. i have several years experience mapping neighborhoods in the legal sense in an ESRI GIS environment, and have translated some of that to OSM in my spare time. When

Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

2013/6/17 Anthony > It's not about mapping the sign, it's about mapping the neighborhood based > on the sign. > > We don't map speed limit signs, we map the speed limits on the roads based > on the signs. > where do you get this from? We are indeed mapping speed limits signs (additionally to th