Re: [freenet-dev] next step? was: Planning process step #1: Broad resource areas
On Wed, May 18, 2016 2:35 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de wrote: Since the discussion seems to have ended, how about going to the next step? Good point - sorry, I've been distracted by my day-job. @Ian: Would you describe the next step? I've created a document here on which anyone should be able to make edits, please read the guidelines carefully first. There is a danger here for vandalism, I'm hoping that won't happen. If it does we'll need to switch to a more restrictive approach which will just waste everyone's time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z4s0D1M9HL0xCrf1tdaKGm5U3-WJBwRdMSvyj975WaA/edit?usp=sharing This document should be accessible via Tor for anonymous users. Please spread the word to the various Freenet channels/forums. Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Proposal to make unit-tests in Freenet easier to implement
Hey Martin, This sounds like a great idea. Classes should only require the dependencies they actually need, partially because it makes unit testing much easier, as you point out. So if a large node object is being passed to classes that only use a small part of that object, then it's definitely an architectural problem (it's been a very long time since I delved into the codebase). The node option is basically functioning as a static dependency. If the solution is a publish-subscribe architecture, then one option you might look at is Guava's EventBus, it is designed for exactly this purpose: https://github.com/google/guava/wiki/EventBusExplained Another way to avoid this kind of architectural problem is to use a dependency injection framework like Guice (older but more widely used) or Daggar (newer and with faster startup time and better on mobile). For anyone interested in avoiding this kind of software architecture mistake, and many other mistakes, I highly recommend the book “Clean Code” by Robert C. Martin. It's full of great ideas and best practices for architecting code (not Java-specific, but most of the examples are Java). Ian. On Sat, May 7, 2016 5:10 AM, Martin Byrenheid martin.byrenh...@tu-dresden.de wrote: Hello everyone, I've spend some time thinking about how to make it easier to test Freenet's different subsystems, especially without having to instantiate the whole Freenet Node class for almost every test. One possibly helpful idea that came to my mind is to decouple classes by using a publish-subscribe mechanism, where each instance can subscribe to events (e.g. received a new announcement request) and publish other events together with corresponding data (e.g. the message and the neighbor node where the request came from). This way, many subsystems could then trigger methods in other subsystems without having to know them directly and also might not need a reference to the Node class anymore, making them much easier to test. I've integrated some examples within the NodeDispatcher-class and pushed it into my Github repository [1]. Due to its rather high level of abstraction, the publish-subscribe mechanism handles all attached data just as objects, which is not nice regarding type safety. However, I haven't yet found a better solution since I don't have much experience with Java and I first want to hear your opinion about this approach. Martin [1] https://github.com/yadevel/fred/commit/f4ce1b066ad673b995ea2a729ba21b2a7e932e5b ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Planning process step #1: Broad resource areas
On Fri, May 6, 2016 5:16 AM, Florent Daigniere nextg...@freenetproject.org wrote:* new core features - Stuff that would enable new type of applications (new keytypes, ...) That's a good one, can you give a few more examples of tasks that would fall under this category? eg. With “new keytypes”, do you have specific ideas there? Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Planning process step #1: Broad resource areas
On Fri, May 6, 2016 4:03 AM, hyazin...@emailn.de wrote: + Design - Make Freenet more beautiful, and make Freenet feel and work better Thank you for the suggestion, but isn't that very similar to “user friendliness”? -- Ian Clarke Stacks - The AI CFO for your personal finances http://trystacks.com/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Planning process step #1: Broad resource areas
You're jumping the gun, first I'm just trying to agree on the high level categories. These items will be useful in stage #2 -- sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and typos On May 5, 2016 21:04, wrote: > Thanks! > I'll start with my proposals. I'll put ideas about your proposals in a > separate reply, it's easier to discuss different people's proposals in a > thread of their own. > > > SPEED: > > Improving Web of Trust (WoT) performance. > > This would complete the first iteration of the most critical algorithmic > performance fixes, which was the subject of my previous 2 years of work. It > would thus ensure that this work is not left in an unfinished state. > > 3 of 4 of the fixes of the first iteration have been completed: > - Finished: Event-notifications (see build0014 Changelog) > - Finished: Trust list queueing (see build0016 Changelog) > - Finished: Core algorithm fixes (see my bachelor's thesis / build0018) > - Remaining: Reduce O(N²) USK subscriptions to O(N): > https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3816 > > The future second iteration would deal with less severe changes. > I'd call this iteration "first" because finishing it would allow us to > finally start encouraging users to actually use the applications built on > WoT. > > Many of the most interesting already existing client applications depend on > WoT: > - Social networking (Sone) > - Blogging (FlogHelper) > - Forums (Freetalk) > - Mail (Freemail) > - Distributed version control (various tools for Git / Mercurial over > Freenet) > > We currently don't deploy any of those as part of the default > configuration. > While this is partly due to certain lack of polishing in those apps > themselves, the primary reason is that WoT would be too much of a resource > hog > to deploy by default. > > (Beyond 6 months of work, fixing WoT would also be a preparation for > developing the client app which has received the highest amount of 700 > votes > on uservoice: Filesharing. > This could be implemented based on the forums.) > > > USE FRIENDLINESS > > Darknet enhancements. > > These are smaller pieces of work, so I will suggest a few: > > - Single use node references with authentication token: Currently, to > create a > darknet connection, *both* users have to add the node reference of each > other. > Tokenized node references would allow one person to use your reference to > add > himself as your peer *without* you having to add his node reference > manually. > I think this is a major usability improvement, as the general workflow of > other stuff such as phones / WhatsApp is that you do NOT have to both add a > "reference" of each other. People just aren't used to this. > > - Darknet invitation bundles: Feature for adding a single use node > reference > to an installer executable. People could hand out the installer executable > to > their friends to allow them to connect by darknet instantly. > Thanks to ArneBab for this idea! > > - Short node references: Currently, node references fill almost half a > page of > paper. This doesn't fit into a Facebook chat window for example. > As most users are likely to not only use darknet but also opennet, we could > upload node references to Freenet itself as a random KSK, with for example > 128 > bit entropy to be ~ 25 letters. > This would also make sense to combine with the aforementioned single use > node > references. > > - Friend-of-a-friend connection suggestions ("FOAF"). Like the Facebook > friend > finder, Freenet could be improved to tell you about darknet peers of your > peers. You could then chose to add them as your peers. Part of this > codebase > already exists. > > - Friend requests, like in Facebook: With primitive FOAF, both peers would > still have to add each other. With friend requests, peers of your peers > could > just request to connect to you. > Together with the aforementioned FOAF connections, this could have a very > similar UI to how adding friends on Facebook works. This should thus be a > huge > usability improvement. > > - Darknet chat improvements: Freenet allows you to send messages to your > darknet peers. The UI of that is very primitive. It should be improved to > be > similar to e.g. the Facebook chat. There is also a very high probability of > losing messages: Messages are not queued to disk, so restarting before a > message is sent results in its loss. This should be fixed. > > We've discussed how to implement these ideas, so I'm aware of how it would > work and feel capable of doing this. > > (As the above were all Freenet ideas, here's why there is no WoT idea: > It recently received a full revamp of it's web interface, and also a full > l10n > revamp. So I don't think any usability work is necessary there at the > moment.) > > > SECURITY > > Multiple ideas again: > > - All fred plugins: AFAIK *none* of our official plugins deletes its > database > when the user removes it. They also do not obey the "PANIC" button of > Freenet > which should delete all
[freenet-dev] Planning process step #1: Broad resource areas
First stage is to come up with a handful of broad categories of stuff that we might want to do over, say, the next 6 months. I'll start: * Speed - Make Freenet requests and responses faster * User friendliness - Work on FProxy and installer to make them easier to use * Security - Make Freenet more secure against attack * Technical debt - Stuff that will make future development faster * Outreach - Stuff that will help attract users, developers, and donors to Freenet (eg. the website) Am I missing anything? Let's try to keep things at a similar high-level. Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Proposal for a democratic process to efficiently allocate resources (including the $25k)
So can I assume that, since the conversation went off on some weird tangent, that everyone is comfortable with my proposal? On Thu, May 5, 2016 6:35 PM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote: On Friday, May 06, 2016 01:27:29 AM Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Freitag, 6. Mai 2016, 00:33:12 schrieb x...@freenetproject.org: > > You wouldn't have needed to blindguess them manually > > It wasn’t blindguessing. It was giving the numbers how Freenet can hire > peoplel without forcing them to exploit themselves. And I think that was > needed beyond the curent argument to be done in the open. Sorry, I did not mean to talk down your expertise in finances! I was just trying to say that I don't want to waste your time with having to do estimates about me due to poor information from my side. I have the precise numbers at hand, so you don't have to spend any time in calculating my cost. Anyway, what matters for this discussion is: With the current funds, Freenet can definitely get 23.6 hours/week from me, for 52 weeks.___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Proposal for a democratic process to efficiently allocate resources (including the $25k)
On Wed, May 4, 2016 1:45 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de wrote: Ian Clarke writes:> Well, one important component of the allocation process is to start with an even > allocation of points between all tasks, Did I overlook that in the description? Yes you did, from my proposal: For the next stage, every participant gets 1000 units of “value” to allocate between the different tasks, starting from an equal distribution of units between the tasks . Even if we buy things, we still need time to integrate them. And as an example why I think that money isn’t useful here: $600 sound like much, but when we’re thinking about paying people, that’s less than half a person-week. This is very much not an obvious correlation, though. I don't agree, I think thinking about people's time in terms of money is the right way to think about it, and more people should think about it that way. Otherwise it is too easy to undervalue time. This is why so many companies waste so much time on pointless meetings involving way too many people. I even have a friend that created a Chrome extension for Google Calendar that showed the cost of every meeting scheduled in terms of the hourly costs of those involved. It's a very useful way to discourage pointless meetings. People's time is valuable, thinking about it as currency rather than just time helps to remind people of that, while also providing a common frame of reference for a variety of tasks. > However, I > don't agree that if a task is less than a week's work that we should > automatically do it, we might have $25k worth of tasks like that! This is not what I said: I said that if the task is less than a week of work, it’s too small to merit discussing it. Volunteer time is too valuable for that. It is what you said, from your previous email: If it can be done in less than a week, we should just do it right away instead of discussing how much time it requires. > This wasn't just a description of the method, it was an argument in favor of > using the method, and some background on how I came up with the method. > A simple description of the method would be much shorter. Good :)We’ll need > such a description before we can actually use the method. I believe I address this in the last sentence of my proposal: I have further ideas on which online tools we can use to implement this, I’m thinking Google Docs, but let’s agree on the principles before we get too much into the mechanism. Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Proposal for a democratic process to efficiently allocate resources (including the $25k)
On Tue, May 3, 2016 3:03 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de wrote:The intro shows values from 1 to 100, the later description uses 1 to 1000. Oops, fixed. I do not think 1000 points are useful in terms of limited volunteer time resources. How about making it 20? This then requires explicitly *not* putting any value on certain tasks, which is the most important decision to take here: What do we *not* need to do right now? Well, one important component of the allocation process is to start with an even allocation of points between all tasks, which discourages people from just picking one or two favorite tasks and putting all of their points in those tasks. Depending on how many tasks we have, 20 points might not be sufficient for this. But perhaps 100 is a better number, we can decide once we see how many tasks we get. As cost-metric I would suggest using full-time person-weeks. The problem is that some things we could allocate resources to might be, say, paying $600 for 99designs to come up with a new web design (just an example). Unless we have a common measure of cost for everything we won't be able to compare them. Currency is a good lowest-common-denominator, everything else should be expressible in terms of currency with some reasonable assumptions. - We have money for ~20 of these. That’s a number we can easily handle. - Cost is very different from salary (by roughly factor 2). Time isn’t. - Any feature which looks like it could be implemented in one day is likely implementable within one week. - $5000 sounds like a lot. But it’s just 4 full-time person-weeks for the people who already know about Freenet — others would have to get into the code first, so the price per feature would be similar. - There is no task which is worth the time to describe it here which can be finished in less than a week. If it can be done in less than a week, we should just do it right away instead of discussing how much time it requires. I agree that we can't be too granular with these tasks, if there are too many then people will have trouble allocating intelligently between them. However, I don't agree that if a task is less than a week's work that we should automatically do it, we might have $25k worth of tasks like that! Part of the solution is to have a “catch-all” for small “technical debt” tasks, where they might not individually have a user-visible benefit, but where the benefit is that they accelerate our development process over time, in part by reducing the likelihood of bugs. We could then have a fixed resource allocation for these, I've seen people use 25% in the past. Finally: The text is far too long. A description for the method needs to fit on a 14pt A5 page. This wasn't just a description of the method, it was an argument in favor of using the method, and some background on how I came up with the method. A simple description of the method would be much shorter. Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Proposal for a democratic process to efficiently allocate resources (including the $25k)
On Tue, May 3, 2016 2:14 PM, Michael Grube michael.gr...@gmail.com wrote: I think it can be implemented easily enough with intelligent use of Google Docs and a little bit of elbow grease, which I'm ok with providing if others can help. https://gist.github.com/sanity/4cf3b1c3484bdb9926d71bc9c4fc0341 Thoughts? I think it's a good start. I wonder if it would be helpful to define our categories only by measurable metrics. Subjective categories may be too easy to spend unnecessary amounts of time and energy on with no final result. Maybe, although the top-level categories really don't play much of a role in the planning process so probably not much point in overthinking them. Each task is assessed individually, both in terms of value provided, and effort required. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Stacks - The AI CFO for your personal finances http://trystacks.com/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] Proposal for a democratic process to efficiently allocate resources (including the $25k)
I've written a proposal for how we can do this, based on my learnings over a decade and a half of managing software projects (mostly commercial). Feedback from the core team has been positive so-far, with the main objection being that it may be too elaborate for our needs. I think it can be implemented easily enough with intelligent use of Google Docs and a little bit of elbow grease, which I'm ok with providing if others can help. https://gist.github.com/sanity/4cf3b1c3484bdb9926d71bc9c4fc0341 Thoughts? Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] DuckDuckGo has donated $25k to Freenet
It should now be safe to announce that DuckDuckGo has donated $25k to Freenet. Will follow-up with discussion with my thoughts on some processes we can use to decide how to allocate it. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] Law-enforcement lying to courts about how Freenet works
Some chatter on Reddit in the past few days about law enforcement apparently providing incorrect information to courts about how Freenet works in order to create probable cause to search people's computers: https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/4ebw9w/more_information_on_law_enforcements_freenet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/4es8lv/law_enforcement_freenet_project_links/ If law enforcement are indeed lying to courts in order to establish probable cause to search computers, then we need to set the record straight. Would anyone be interested in writing an article on this subject? If it is well-written we might even be able to get a site like http://arstechnica.com/ to publish it. Otherwise Medium.com might be another good vehicle. Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Berlin or close resident needed, Fundraising opportunity on May 2-5
Great advocacy work Xor :) On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 11:52 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote: Hey folks, I recently attended a local Internet politics meetup to speak about Freenet, at the hope of getting ideas for fundraising. We turned out to chat about it for 4 hours, and one of the politicians there likes Freenet and is indeed interested in helping us with acquiring donations! His plan is to speak to higher level members of the green party about this. He will be at the re:publica "Web 2.0" conference in Berlin, May 2-4. On Thursday May 5, he'll also attend the screening of a movie from a politician who he suspects to be able to help. I cannot be there myself unfortunately. So if one of you folks can be in Berlin on May 2-4, and/or ideally on May 5, it would be nice if you could accompany the guy so he has a Freenet expert at hand. If you are interested, please quickly send me a mail about how you're easy to be contacted, for example your phone number, as this is next week already. Thanks & Greetings___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl Ian Clarke Stacks - The AI CFO for your personal finances http://trystacks.com/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Decentralized Web Summit in San Francisco, by the Internet Archive, June 8th
Agreed. Just some advice from my experience giving talks, if you guys are speaking together you should practice going through the entire thing at least 4 times before you'll both be comfortable and it will seem natural. In fact the same applies even if it's just one of you, but two people is more important because you don't want to step on each other, contradict each-other, or really say anything that's going to surprise the other person. And definitely try not to get into an argument on stage :) Ian. On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:51 AM, wrote: > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 03:00:29 PM Michael Grube wrote: > > If nobody would object, I can also check my availability. If both of us > are > > available, we could simply both go - right? > > A RAID of two people is indeed a good idea to be able to address all > potential > questions which one of them might not have an answer for, so yea, why not? > :) > > Also I feel like projects which present themselves at a conference usually > have multiple people on the stage. > > Thanks! > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Similarity between original SSK proposal and Bitcoin contracts
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 09:06:57PM +, Matthew Toseland wrote: > > In practice what you can do with Bitcoin script is severely restricted > > by the miners... but there is no obvious reason for this that would also > > apply to Freenet key verification. > > Actually that's no longer true! If you're using P2SH, scripts are > allowed to be pretty much anything, provided that you keep the total > number of signature operations less than a reasonable limit. > Interesting. It seems that the intent is that with Bitcoin contracts anything remotely complicated be outsourced to an "oracle", a trusted third-party - which is a disappointingly centralized approach. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ <http://go.toutapp.com/6de3c3e3a5720a7e63> ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] Similarity between original SSK proposal and Bitcoin contracts
I've been reading about Bitcoin Contracts <http://go.toutapp.com/90b05fd2ceb9921d1d>, and I'm surprised by the similarity between these and, not just SSKs, but particularly the original proposal for SSKs <http://go.toutapp.com/47378f027c07c02552> from way back in June 2000, which involved a stack based language with cryptographic primitives, just like the language used for Bitcoin contracts. I don't know if the Bitcoin approach was inspired by SSKs at all, I suspect more likely independent reinvention to solve a similar problem. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Applying for pro UX help for free
That would be great Charles, would you be able to submit an application? If you need any help just let me know. On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:25 PM, charles wrote: > So I just found this program for free software projects that support > free expression online to apply to to get help with UX.[1] I think it > would be really useful for us to apply for this. There are so many > places we could try and improve UX. I don't think they would necessarily > help with the development side of things, but it would still be really > valuable to get input and data from pro UX people. They could also help > run usability studies and such. > > -Charles > > [1] https://simplysecure.org/blog/apply-for-help/ > > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] What blocks Freenet adoption?
On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:28 AM, wrote: > I second Steve's statement. We've done enough 'looking what all is bad' > stuff in recent past, people already know what's wrong, that's enough. > Keep doing it - even when done in a very friendly and nice tone - just > demotivates and that highens unproductivity. > I've never heard of a project that didn't try to maintain a clear idea of what the project's priorities should be. Are you saying that we already have a comprehensive list of the issues in priority order? If not, and it really doesn't sound like we do, then any discussion that leads to one is entirely appropriate in any project, and there is no reason anyone should be demotivated by it. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] What blocks Freenet adoption?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Ian Clarke wrote: > > I said that the redesign was a bit improvement > Unfortunate typo - "bit" -> "big" -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] What blocks Freenet adoption?
Arne and I had an extensive discussion about this off-list which I'll try to summarize here. I believe that one of our biggest problems is that the current website, even though a significant improvement on what we had before, is still not up to the standards of contemporary open source projects <http://beautifulopen.com/>. For example, I was chatting with the developers of Lantern <https://getlantern.org/> last week, and the first thing they said when they saw freenetproject.org is that the white-on-black design communicates that there is something dark, surrupticious, perhaps even evil about Freenet, which is precisely the opposite of the message we want our website to send. Contrast it with the Lantern website I've linked above, which I think sends a message of openness and friendliness. Since Arne and I have already debated it, let me preemptively respond to some of what people might say :) *We just redesigned the website, and you're telling us we need to redesign it again?!* I believe this to be an example of the sunk-cost fallacy <http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/174-sunk-cost-fallacy>. Decisions about where to spend resources should depend on the current and future needs of the project, but should not be influenced by where we've spent resources in the past. This might be difficult and painful because it goes somewhat against human nature, but I think we need to be logical about it. *You're insulting the work of everyone that worked on the last redesign!* I am not. As I mentioned in my last email on this thread, we need to be able to have an honest conversation about problems without people taking it personally. I said that the redesign was a bit improvement, and it was, and my understanding is also that the underlying infrastructure of the site was improved quite a bit too which should hopefully make any changes to the overall template much easier. *Redesigning the website will take months!* I don't see why it should. The website is fairly simple, mostly just text - modifying the template shouldn't require more than a few days of work for someone with the appropriate skills. *What gives you the right to demand that volunteers spend time on fixing the website?* I don't claim that right, but I do have the right to state my opinion about what is blocking Freenet adoption in the hope that I will persuade someone with the appropriate skills to spend time on it. *Why didn't you say all this 6 months ago when we were working on the redesign?* The honest answer is because I was distracted, at the time I was in the process of departing the company I had co-founded. Regardless, similar to my point about sunk-cost, debating the past doesn't get us anywhere - we need to focus on what is blocking adoption today and what we can do about it. *Why don't you redesign the site if you think it's such a good idea?* Because I'm currently in the process of starting a new company which leaves me with no spare time. If I could set aside a few days then I probably would do it, although I worry that people would then be angry that I've replaced some of the recent work on the site. Thoughts? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] What blocks Freenet adoption?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:32 AM, wrote: > Overall comment about your mail: I think such threads are *asking* to > cause a > flamewar. Pick lots of random, unrelated stuff, and complain about its > state - > the "lots of" guarantees that you'll make as many developers feel affected > negatively as possible. So you'll have lots of stressed people arguing, > which > is the recipe for a flamewar. I'll respond to Arne's initial email in a minute, but just on this - I feel that as a project we have to be able to point out problems honestly without causing people to get defensive. Now perhaps part of this responsibility is on the part of the person pointing out the problem, they need to be diplomatic, and part of the problem is on the other side, where people need to try to interpret criticism as help, rather than taking it personally. Most other projects manage this, I mean, almost every bug report could potentially be interpreted as criticism of someone's work, and yet for whatever reason that doesn't seem to happen in other projects. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New UPnP2 plugin
On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Matthew Toseland wrote: > On 26/12/15 16:03, Ian wrote: > > Best practice is to use the logging system, using System.out.println() > for > > logging is almost universally regarded as bad practice, many static > > analysis tools will automatically flag it as a problem. > > > > The example you gave in NodeCrypto is not best practice, that should > > probably just be something like: > > > > Logger.error(this, "Could not use port: "+bindto+ ':'+portNo+": "+e, e) > > In this case it is appropriate, because the above is only shown if the > node is about to fail to start up (at least in the darknet case). See my > message explaining the current policy. Changing the policy may be > appropriate, I'm just documenting the current status quo. Ok, but in that case this "policy" deviates from standard practice in Java programming, which is to use a logging framework for all log messages, even "fatal" messages. The exception might be in Freenet was a command-line app, but that's not how most people use Freenet. A fatal error should ideally be reported via FProxy, since most users aren't going to see stuff written to the console. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New UPnP2 plugin
Best practice is to use the logging system, using System.out.println() for logging is almost universally regarded as bad practice, many static analysis tools will automatically flag it as a problem. The example you gave in NodeCrypto is not best practice, that should probably just be something like: Logger.error(this, "Could not use port: "+bindto+ ':'+portNo+": "+e, e) Freenet has it's own logging system (see here <https://github.com/freenet/fred/blob/088f5f479a2b8b83d813e8a77d8f2937ce9c27d1/src/freenet/support/Logger.java>), possibly because Freenet predates a lot of the logging frameworks, however we should probably be using one of the numerous logging libraries like Logback, as they are more flexible. Ian. On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 7:05 AM, Xiaoyu Huang <007...@gmail.com> wrote: > System.out.println() is for easier debugging as I can see the results > directly in wrapper.log. > > I see many examples in Fred code that uses both Logger and println(). An > example in NodeCrypto.java line around 136: > > Logger.normal(this, "Could not use port: "+bindto+ ':' > +portNo+": "+e, e); > System.err.println("Could not use port: "+bindto+ ':' > +portNo+": "+e); > > I'm not quite sure what's the best practice. > > -- Xiaoyu > > On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Ian wrote: > > > This looks great! > > > > I notice a lot of System.out.println()s in the code, do we not have a > > logging mechanism in Fred available for use by plugins? > > > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Xiaoyu Huang <007...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > As nextgens suggests, I write this plugin which is based on the newer > and > > > more stable UPnP lib named Cling (http://4thline.org/projects/cling/). > > > > > > Currently It only supports FredPluginIPDetector and > > FredPluginPortForward. > > > I will add FredPluginBandwidthIndicator and Web UI support when I have > > > time. > > > > > > Code review, suggestions and tests are required. The source code can be > > > accessed here: > > > > > > https://github.com/007pig/plugin-UPnP2 > > > > > > I uses Gradle as the build system. So to build the plugin and package > it > > as > > > plugin jar, you need: > > > > > >1. Copy freenet.jar, freenet-ext.jar and bcprov-jdk15on-152.jar to > > >"[project root]/libs" dir. > > >2. Run "./gradlew build shadowjar". > > >3. After build, you can find the plugin in "[project > root]/build/libs" > > >with file name "plugin-UPnP2-1.0-SNAPSHOT-all.jar". > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Xiaoyu > > > ___ > > > Devl mailing list > > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > > ___ > > Devl mailing list > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New UPnP2 plugin
This looks great! I notice a lot of System.out.println()s in the code, do we not have a logging mechanism in Fred available for use by plugins? On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Xiaoyu Huang <007...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All, > > As nextgens suggests, I write this plugin which is based on the newer and > more stable UPnP lib named Cling (http://4thline.org/projects/cling/). > > Currently It only supports FredPluginIPDetector and FredPluginPortForward. > I will add FredPluginBandwidthIndicator and Web UI support when I have > time. > > Code review, suggestions and tests are required. The source code can be > accessed here: > > https://github.com/007pig/plugin-UPnP2 > > I uses Gradle as the build system. So to build the plugin and package it as > plugin jar, you need: > >1. Copy freenet.jar, freenet-ext.jar and bcprov-jdk15on-152.jar to >"[project root]/libs" dir. >2. Run "./gradlew build shadowjar". >3. After build, you can find the plugin in "[project root]/build/libs" >with file name "plugin-UPnP2-1.0-SNAPSHOT-all.jar". > > Thanks, > Xiaoyu > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New Freenet installer for Mac / FreenetTray v2.0.0
Hi Steve, just wanted to check in with you about this On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Ian wrote: > Another minor thing: It appears to be starting Freenet automatically on > startup even when "Start Freenet Automatically" is unchecked in Settings. > > Is there somewhere else you'd like bugs reported, or is this thread ok? > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Ian wrote: > >> Ah, you know - I'm an idiot, it had started after all, I just expected it >> to pop up FProxy, and didn't notice that it had added a rabbit to my menu >> bar. Still, I think this might reveal a usability issue. >> >> I would suggest maybe if there is a way to distinguish when it is being >> started automatically (ie. when the user logs in) and being started >> manually, then it should open FProxy when it is started manually, but not >> when it is started automatically. >> >> Additionally, if it is started when it is already running, then it should >> open FProxy in the existing running instance. >> >> This is really great work, very slick indeed! >> >> Ian. >> >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:10 AM, Stephen Oliver >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Ian, >>> >>> Which version of OS X are you running? >>> >>> That message is definitely unrelated (it’s from the Degrees weather >>> app), but putting “FreenetTray” in the search box of Console.app should >>> show more, and there is likely a crash report linked from one of the >>> messages (alternatively, they should be in >>> ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/). >>> >>> Thanks for testing! >>> >>> >>> > On Dec 8, 2015, at 12:18 AM, Ian wrote: >>> > >>> > Screenshots look great, but trying to launch it, looks like it may be >>> > crashing immediately. >>> > >>> > This error message may or may not be releated: >>> > >>> > 12/7/15 11:17:25.223 PM com.apple.xpc.launchd[1]: >>> > (at.appscape.degrees.helper[37139]) LaunchServices returned a bundle >>> URL >>> > that does not match with the LoginItem's known association. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:12 PM, Stephen Oliver >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Hello everyone, >>> >> >>> >> I’m pleased to announce that after several months of development and >>> >> testing, the new Freenet installer for Mac is ready for use :) >>> >> >>> >> The installer is now built in to my existing FreenetTray app for Mac >>> that >>> >> has been distributed with Freenet for the past 5+ years, and is >>> intended to >>> >> replace the izPack based java_installer for Mac users. >>> >> >>> >> It fixes a variety of severe issues that Freenet users routinely >>> encounter >>> >> on Mac OS X, particularly new users installing for the first time, >>> when >>> >> they are most likely to be frustrated by problems and give up. >>> >> >>> >> Some of the immediate improvements include: >>> >> >>> >> - Everything needed to bootstrap a Freenet node on Mac is bundled, >>> >> including a current Oracle Java 8 package >>> >> - Suitable for offline distribution via USB or CD >>> >> - Installing a Freenet node no longer requires Java to already be >>> >> installed and working properly on the system, the installer will take >>> care >>> >> of it >>> >> - Apple’s Java 6 package is no longer needed for any reason (yay!) >>> >> >>> >> Signed build including fred1470: >>> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0 < >>> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0> >>> >> >>> >> Source, more info and screenshots: >>> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray < >>> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ___ >>> >> Devl mailing list >>> >> Devl@freenetproject.org >>> >> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl >>> >> >>> > ___ >>> > Devl mailing list >>> > Devl@freenetproject.org >>> > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Devl mailing list >>> Devl@freenetproject.org >>> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl >>> >> >> > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Open Encryption projects receive half a million euros of Dutch government
Can't hurt to try, thanks Michael! On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Michael Grube wrote: > Cliche quote about missing 100% of shots not taken goes here. > > > If nobody else is even going to try, I suppose I will. I am not free until > this weekend but I will give it a shot. > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 1:56 AM, Bert Massop wrote: > > > The key parts of the amendment are the following: > > > De indieners van dit amendement [willen] de ontwikkeling en versterking > > van encryptie ondersteunen door €0,5 miljoen te doneren aan open source > > encryptie projecten, zoals OpenSSL, LibreSSL, PolarSSL, etc. > > > […] > > > Het ministerie van Economische Zaken moet, in samenspraak met > deskundigen > > uit het veld, projecten selecteren die cruciaal zijn voor de > internationale > > internet infrastructuur. > > > > Or loosely translated: > > > The authors of this amendment aim to support the development and > > reinforcement of encryption by means of a donation of €0.5 million to > open > > source encryption projects, such as OpenSSL, LibreSSL, PolarSSL, etc. > > > […] > > > The Ministry of Economic Affairs must, together with field experts, > > select projects that are crucial for the international internet > > infrastructure. > > > > I deem it unlikely that Freenet would find any funding as a consequence > of > > this amendment. > > > > First, the amount is donated towards "open source encryption projects", > > from the rest of the amendment it follows that encryption libraries are > > meant—which we are not in my humble opinion. We use encryption, but we > > don't provide it to other applications as such. > > > > Then, I would be lying if I claimed that Freenet is, at this point, > crucial > > for the internet infrastructure. Wouldn't I? ;) > > > > If anyone would like to give it a shot regardless of the above, it would > > probably most useful to contact the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs. > > Their contact information is provided in [0]. > > > > All the best, > > Bert > > > > [0] > > > > > https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/ministeries/ministerie-van-economische-zaken/inhoud/contact-met-ez > > Op 9 dec. 2015 01:05 schreef "Ian Clarke" : > > > > > Any Dutch Freeneters want to look into this? > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tweakers.net/nieuws/106723/open-encryptieprojecten-krijgen-half-miljoen-euro-van-nederlandse-overheid.html > > > > > > -- > > > Ian Clarke > > > Founder, The Freenet Project > > > Email: i...@freenetproject.org > > > ___ > > > Devl mailing list > > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > > ___ > > Devl mailing list > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] Open Encryption projects receive half a million euros of Dutch government
Any Dutch Freeneters want to look into this? http://tweakers.net/nieuws/106723/open-encryptieprojecten-krijgen-half-miljoen-euro-van-nederlandse-overheid.html -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New Freenet installer for Mac / FreenetTray v2.0.0
Another minor thing: It appears to be starting Freenet automatically on startup even when "Start Freenet Automatically" is unchecked in Settings. Is there somewhere else you'd like bugs reported, or is this thread ok? On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Ian wrote: > Ah, you know - I'm an idiot, it had started after all, I just expected it > to pop up FProxy, and didn't notice that it had added a rabbit to my menu > bar. Still, I think this might reveal a usability issue. > > I would suggest maybe if there is a way to distinguish when it is being > started automatically (ie. when the user logs in) and being started > manually, then it should open FProxy when it is started manually, but not > when it is started automatically. > > Additionally, if it is started when it is already running, then it should > open FProxy in the existing running instance. > > This is really great work, very slick indeed! > > Ian. > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:10 AM, Stephen Oliver > wrote: > >> Hey Ian, >> >> Which version of OS X are you running? >> >> That message is definitely unrelated (it’s from the Degrees weather app), >> but putting “FreenetTray” in the search box of Console.app should show >> more, and there is likely a crash report linked from one of the messages >> (alternatively, they should be in ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/). >> >> Thanks for testing! >> >> >> > On Dec 8, 2015, at 12:18 AM, Ian wrote: >> > >> > Screenshots look great, but trying to launch it, looks like it may be >> > crashing immediately. >> > >> > This error message may or may not be releated: >> > >> > 12/7/15 11:17:25.223 PM com.apple.xpc.launchd[1]: >> > (at.appscape.degrees.helper[37139]) LaunchServices returned a bundle URL >> > that does not match with the LoginItem's known association. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:12 PM, Stephen Oliver >> wrote: >> > >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> >> >> I’m pleased to announce that after several months of development and >> >> testing, the new Freenet installer for Mac is ready for use :) >> >> >> >> The installer is now built in to my existing FreenetTray app for Mac >> that >> >> has been distributed with Freenet for the past 5+ years, and is >> intended to >> >> replace the izPack based java_installer for Mac users. >> >> >> >> It fixes a variety of severe issues that Freenet users routinely >> encounter >> >> on Mac OS X, particularly new users installing for the first time, when >> >> they are most likely to be frustrated by problems and give up. >> >> >> >> Some of the immediate improvements include: >> >> >> >> - Everything needed to bootstrap a Freenet node on Mac is bundled, >> >> including a current Oracle Java 8 package >> >> - Suitable for offline distribution via USB or CD >> >> - Installing a Freenet node no longer requires Java to already be >> >> installed and working properly on the system, the installer will take >> care >> >> of it >> >> - Apple’s Java 6 package is no longer needed for any reason (yay!) >> >> >> >> Signed build including fred1470: >> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0 < >> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0> >> >> >> >> Source, more info and screenshots: >> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray < >> >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> Devl mailing list >> >> Devl@freenetproject.org >> >> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl >> >> >> > ___ >> > Devl mailing list >> > Devl@freenetproject.org >> > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl >> >> >> ___ >> Devl mailing list >> Devl@freenetproject.org >> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl >> > > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New Freenet installer for Mac / FreenetTray v2.0.0
Ah, you know - I'm an idiot, it had started after all, I just expected it to pop up FProxy, and didn't notice that it had added a rabbit to my menu bar. Still, I think this might reveal a usability issue. I would suggest maybe if there is a way to distinguish when it is being started automatically (ie. when the user logs in) and being started manually, then it should open FProxy when it is started manually, but not when it is started automatically. Additionally, if it is started when it is already running, then it should open FProxy in the existing running instance. This is really great work, very slick indeed! Ian. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:10 AM, Stephen Oliver wrote: > Hey Ian, > > Which version of OS X are you running? > > That message is definitely unrelated (it’s from the Degrees weather app), > but putting “FreenetTray” in the search box of Console.app should show > more, and there is likely a crash report linked from one of the messages > (alternatively, they should be in ~/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/). > > Thanks for testing! > > > > On Dec 8, 2015, at 12:18 AM, Ian wrote: > > > > Screenshots look great, but trying to launch it, looks like it may be > > crashing immediately. > > > > This error message may or may not be releated: > > > > 12/7/15 11:17:25.223 PM com.apple.xpc.launchd[1]: > > (at.appscape.degrees.helper[37139]) LaunchServices returned a bundle URL > > that does not match with the LoginItem's known association. > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:12 PM, Stephen Oliver > wrote: > > > >> Hello everyone, > >> > >> I’m pleased to announce that after several months of development and > >> testing, the new Freenet installer for Mac is ready for use :) > >> > >> The installer is now built in to my existing FreenetTray app for Mac > that > >> has been distributed with Freenet for the past 5+ years, and is > intended to > >> replace the izPack based java_installer for Mac users. > >> > >> It fixes a variety of severe issues that Freenet users routinely > encounter > >> on Mac OS X, particularly new users installing for the first time, when > >> they are most likely to be frustrated by problems and give up. > >> > >> Some of the immediate improvements include: > >> > >> - Everything needed to bootstrap a Freenet node on Mac is bundled, > >> including a current Oracle Java 8 package > >> - Suitable for offline distribution via USB or CD > >> - Installing a Freenet node no longer requires Java to already be > >> installed and working properly on the system, the installer will take > care > >> of it > >> - Apple’s Java 6 package is no longer needed for any reason (yay!) > >> > >> Signed build including fred1470: > >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0 < > >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0> > >> > >> Source, more info and screenshots: > >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray < > >> https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Devl mailing list > >> Devl@freenetproject.org > >> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > >> > > ___ > > Devl mailing list > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] New Freenet installer for Mac / FreenetTray v2.0.0
Screenshots look great, but trying to launch it, looks like it may be crashing immediately. This error message may or may not be releated: 12/7/15 11:17:25.223 PM com.apple.xpc.launchd[1]: (at.appscape.degrees.helper[37139]) LaunchServices returned a bundle URL that does not match with the LoginItem's known association. On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:12 PM, Stephen Oliver wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I’m pleased to announce that after several months of development and > testing, the new Freenet installer for Mac is ready for use :) > > The installer is now built in to my existing FreenetTray app for Mac that > has been distributed with Freenet for the past 5+ years, and is intended to > replace the izPack based java_installer for Mac users. > > It fixes a variety of severe issues that Freenet users routinely encounter > on Mac OS X, particularly new users installing for the first time, when > they are most likely to be frustrated by problems and give up. > > Some of the immediate improvements include: > > - Everything needed to bootstrap a Freenet node on Mac is bundled, > including a current Oracle Java 8 package > - Suitable for offline distribution via USB or CD > - Installing a Freenet node no longer requires Java to already be > installed and working properly on the system, the installer will take care > of it > - Apple’s Java 6 package is no longer needed for any reason (yay!) > > Signed build including fred1470: > https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0 < > https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray/releases/tag/v2.0.0> > > Source, more info and screenshots: > https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray < > https://github.com/steveatinfincia/mactray#freenettray> > > > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Freenet Canary
On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Victor Denisov wrote: > > This is very interesting, it is - but I'm afraid the true reason Freenet > is struggling as a software development project is much, much simpler. > If I can put my two kopecks' worth out there, my *personal* feeling is > that the project has been lacking some sort of a "steel hand", > Stalin-style, ever since Ian had stepped down. > > Basically, what Freenet had shown in that regard is that management "by > committee" doesn't work for open-source projects just like it doesn't > work in the world of commercial applications. You (developers) and we > (users) desperately need a real *leader*, a person who will listen to > different points of view and then make quick, binding and final > decisions - which everyone will respect and adhere to, and which will > end any and all discussions of the topic in question. You/we should > choose *one* person and willfully grant him/her authority to make final > unilateral decisions on all aspects of the project. > > I'm afraid that before that is done, Freenet is destined to be stuck in > the development mire it currently is. I'm not sure, I've definitely been very hands-off in recent years, but even at the peak of development around 2000-2003ish I don't think anyone would describe me as "Stalin-like", I always tried to act more as a "facilitator", trying to encourage people to play nice and be an independent arbiter. For a while that worked pretty well, perhaps partially because the constant flow of favorable publicity provided a constant flow of new, enthusiastic, and (often) competent developers willing to devote their time. I don't think a "Stalin-like" approach will work for most open source projects because unlike Stalinist Russia, people voluntarily need to want to be part of your project or they'll just walk away. That being said, I do think the project would significantly benefit from a new and much more engaged leader, ideally with project management experience, but unfortunately such people do not grow on trees when you need them to work voluntarily. Should we find such a person I would support them in a heartbeat. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] First hop over Tor
On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Matthew Toseland wrote: > > > Downsides: > - Cheap denial of service attacks. Asymmetrical. Maybe we could make it > bandwidth-symmetrical, e.g. by requiring bogus data transfers to balance > both directions, but is that enough? > - Tor is much more likely to be blocked than Freenet. :( > The most obvious downside to me is that we'd basically be combining all of the disadvantages of Freenet with all of the disadvantages of Tor. It doesn't make sense to me. Imagine if you could only run Linux if you were using it in an emulator on top of Windows. I doubt it would be very popular. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Freenet Rebooted (without rewriting everything, pay for opennet)
On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Matthew Toseland wrote: > > 3. Opennet is not secure unless users pay for introduction. > Who would they pay, and how would this be implemented in a decentralized way? Given that we already have a shrinking userbase despite Freenet being free, why do you think people will be willing to pay to use it? Won't this dramatically shrink our userbase to a tiny core of enthusiasts, which will provide far less cover traffic and thus reduce security? Opennet tunnels via ShadowWalker. Isn't Freenet already extremely slow? Wouldn't this just slow it down a lot further? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Dan Roberts wrote: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EohzxhrgM1Ky4CaKpk72WiUNepFeT5krdReEKxDyL8o/edit?usp=sharing > > I've annotated lots of things I don't like with comments, I'm sure people > will find many more things they hate. That's fine, be brutal. It's probably > also too long... > A great start, but definitely way too long, and quite repetitive (we tell them we need funds about 6 times!). We should remove any sentence that is repetitive or otherwise redundant. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Bank account status
That sounds good, recommend that you paste it into a Google Doc and allow people to edit or make suggestions (you'll need to adjust the sharing settings) On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Dan Roberts wrote: > I offered on IRC to write a preliminary donation request message to base > our solicitations on. I've revised it twice as of last night, and I think > after one more revision this evening and I'll open it up to everyone else > for comment (~10PM PST). I'm not particularly happy with it at the moment, > but actually it may generate more interest if everyone hates it ;-). From > there we can revise it and begin adapting the message to different donors > (I believe potential donors deserve a personal request, the purpose of my > draft is only to get the ball rolling and serve as a starting point) > > This is not meant as a replacement for exploring indiegogo/kickstarter > though. Something like that would still be good, it just strikes me as a > mid-term project, not a short term effort to get back on track. > > Cheers, > Dan > On Nov 16, 2015 10:54 AM, "xor" wrote: > >> On Monday, November 16, 2015 10:52:16 AM Ian Clarke wrote: >> > I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to >> continue >> > working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. >> > >> > Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to >> donors >> > becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our >> > debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ >> > >> > And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult >> financial >> > situation. >> >> Argh, I had just messaged you that I'd like to postpone the final >> discussion >> of my offer "continue working with payment delayed as interest-free debt" >> until Thursday :| >> I need to figure out some real life stuff related to that. >> >> But well, my offer still is available though. >> Freenet is more important to me than some temporary financial hassle. >> >> Thursday will just make me figure out how bad a "no" to my offer would be >> for >> me, which is why I'd prefer to not hear the decision until then. >> >> But, as said elsewhere, even if my offer is not accepted, I will: >> 1) *not* seek a different job for now (= a year at least probably) and >> use my >> free time to resolve the major real life house cleanup/selling for my mom. >> 2) stay available to resume my job once we have funding - my mom for sure >> would accept me to reduce my efforts for her at any time. >> 3) voluntarily continue replying on IRC / the mailing lists. >> 4) voluntarily at least provide very basic maintenance for Web of Trust / >> Freetalk to prevent user frustration. So please keep bug reports directed >> at >> me :) >> >> Nevertheless, please do notice that I cannot "officially" provide >> volunteering >> anymore due to my life situation. I am only offering this to keep the >> project >> alive by dealing with urgent stuff. >> There is years work of worth at my mom's to be done, and if I do invest my >> spare motivation for volunteering, it should be for her first (yes, she'll >> pay me food, but that's about it :). So please just keep on mind that it >> would >> be a benefit if I could return to paid work ASAP, as earning money is >> something I could justify to have a similarly significant priority. >> I'll try to do my part in ensuring resuming of my job by helping at the >> fundraising efforts. >> >> > If we want >> > Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I think >> > this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay out. >> >> I'd say we already have a strategy: >> >> 0a) Finish the fundraising bar on the website. Done already by the >> volunteers! >> Thanks again. >> >> 0b) Maybe deploy the next Freenet release so my work of the past 6 months >> is >> available to the users actually. Would be polite to provide the result of >> the >> previous money to the users before asking for more money. The code is >> finished >> from my side, it is just waiting for a fred release to be bundled with. >> Steve >> needs to decide whether this can happen soon, or will take too long. If it >> takes to long, we can ignore this step. >> >> 1) Put a news article on website titled "We've run out of money". Notice: >> I >> suggested the prere
[freenet-dev] Bank account status
All, I've paid Xor's latest invoice, there is just $53.42 remaining in the project bank account. If someone could make the appropriate update to the website, I'd appreciate it. There is $1515.77 in Paypal, which I will now xfer to the bank account. I am pretty convinced that it would be a bad idea to allow Xor to continue working if the project doesn't have sufficient funds. Aside from any potential legal problems, imagine what our pitch to donors becomes at that point - "Hey, donate money so that we can pay off our debts". Not exactly a compelling pitch :/ And meanwhile Xor is potentially getting himself into a difficult financial situation. I believe that it would be irresponsible to go down that path. If we want Xor to keep working, we need a strategy for raising more money. I think this strategy will need to be to achieve specific goals that we lay out. Perhaps we could explore a KickStarter - but that would only work if it is to achieve something big and externally very visible (such as rebuilding FProxy using a modern JavaScript framework like Bootstrap/React and modernizing the installers). Thoughts? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Project Status
I'm going to talk to Xor tomorrow, but under no circumstances can Freenet go into debt to anyone. As of right now, FPI has $1168.32 in our bank account, and $1515.77 in Paypal. Xor should not do any work that would exceed this combined amount. Ian. On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 15. Oktober 2015, 16:39:29 schrieb xor: > > I offer to write my bills as fully interest-free debt, with no time > limit for > > payment whatsoever. "Pay as soon as there are enough donations". > > I did not answer before, because I did not consider it my place to > answer. Today I learned that this was interpreted as agreement. > It was not agreement. > > I do not think that Freenet Project Inc. can afford to go into debt. > > And from what I saw in 15 minutes of googling, Ian might be liable for > negligency for agreeing to this. That would mean that he would be > personally liable for the debt of FPI. Given that we cannot predict > donations this is something I would not do. Knowing that the first X > months of donations would go towards paying debt could also be a > pretty strong deterrent for potential donors. > > Weeks ago I sent you a link to a funding agency which I deem most > likely to be able to fund your work. They offer 30k for a year, which > is roughly what you’re billing right now (as far as I know). > I don’t have that link anymore, and no time right now to dig through > the IRC history. If you don’t have it anymore, ask me for it on > tuesday evening. > > I’d like to be friendly here, but in matters of “we are broke” and > “will we promise stuff we don’t have?”, making friendly promises would > be dishonest. And getting Ian in legal trouble is a no-go. > > Best wishes, > Arne -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Montag, 9. November 2015, 12:33:21 schrieb Ian: > > I find it hard to believe that you're debating whether it is important > that > > a website is easy to read. This is self-evident. > > You misunderstood what I said, and I won’t explain it. > Whatever. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Sonntag, 8. November 2015, 13:47:49 schrieb Ian: > > A website is there to be read > > This is already wrong. Our website is there to get people to install > Freenet and help them use it. We couldn’t care less if no one read > further than the first 5 lines if every visitor installed Freenet and > enjoyed using it. > They won't install Freenet unless the website can explain to them why they would want to install it. I find it hard to believe that you're debating whether it is important that a website is easy to read. This is self-evident. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Dan Roberts wrote: > > Since > someone on reddit compared us to Tor, and seeing as Tor is also a very > technical project that needs to explain itself to laypeople, perhaps > we could take some lessons from how they organize their messaging. > That's a great idea. I2P's website is also pretty slick, I think we can get some good ideas from it too: https://geti2p.net/en/ Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Juiceman wrote: > On Nov 8, 2015 2:48 PM, "Ian" wrote: > > That's ridiculous. Multiple independent people have told us that the > color > > scheme is a problem. You can stick your fingers in your ears and sing > > "la-la-la" if you want, but don't expect me to. > > As you said yourself you should have weighed in earlier. Now it feels like > nitpicking. I've already explained that my opinion only solidified when I saw feedback from multiple independent people saying the same thing, and this only happen in the last day or two when I solicited feedback from designers on Reddit. If the suggestions would have been valid a month ago then they are still valid today, even though they might have been more convenient a month ago. I'm pretty sure none of us are professional website designers, which is why I solicited advice from people that are. Taking that advice seriously isn't nitpicking, it is essential. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Juiceman wrote: > > Bikeshed discussions is where most people don't feel qualified to weigh in > on designing a nuclear reactor but everyone feels like they are entitled to > design the bikeshed for the employee's of said nuclear power plant. The > reactor will be done way before everyone and their brother agree on the > color of the shed. > Except the color of a bikeshed isn't central to the function of the bikeshed. A website is there to be read, so if the color of the site impedes readability then it is very much central to the function of the site. > I like the new site and I think you should stop pissing on volunteer's > efforts. > Of course, nobody should ever provide constructive criticism of anything because that would be "pissing on volunteer's efforts". Buggy code? Poor documentation? Doesn't matter, you're not allowed to criticize. That's ridiculous. Multiple independent people have told us that the color scheme is a problem. You can stick your fingers in your ears and sing "la-la-la" if you want, but don't expect me to. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Sonntag, 8. November 2015, 08:55:50 schrieb Ian: > Light on dark or dark on light is a minor point. I disagree, it is the single most obvious aspect of the design, the very first thing people notice when they visit the site. We can't just ignore the feedback we're getting because it is inconvenient. On that subject though, from what Steve is saying the new site should be much easier to modify than the old site, so I'm not sure that this is such a catastrophic change after all. The site already uses bootstrap, all I'm suggesting is that we go back to the default Bootstrap color scheme, or something closer to it. > So please let us stop the bikeshedding discussion. We’re working on > realizing the important points of the feedback — for example “your > download page does not ask me to download the software” and “I don’t > understand how your tool helps me in the first 10 seconds”. > I don't know what you mean by "bikeshedding discussion", but having a well designed website is critical to the project's success. I don't understand why you want to ignore feedback from multiple sources, combined with scientific data, telling us that there are serious issues with the color scheme. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > I don't understand why you chose not to bring this up earlier I didn't choose not to bring this up earlier, my opinion is based in-part on the feedback that we only received after the site went live. That prompted me to do some research on color schemes which solidified my view that light on dark hurts readability. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 5:38 PM, xor wrote: > > Together with the idea "a darknet-thing should have a dark website to make > users feel like they did find the darknet", I'd hope we can move on to > working > on other stuff for a while? > I can't agree. The research tells us that light on dark is bad. We've had direct feedback on the current design supporting this. We also have the fact that not a single popular website uses a light on dark color scheme. I really don't think there can be any doubt that a light-on-dark color scheme is hurting, not helping us. My personal opinion is that there are critical problems with the website as it stands right now, and I don't think we can afford to bury our heads in the sand about it. Yes, I admit that most of these problems I could and should have pointed out earlier, but that doesn't change the fact that they are valid concerns. Make no mistake, a bad website will kill our project. There's lots of things to do, we don't need to get stuck on trying to get > one > thing perfect, better improve all a bit. For example the next logical step > would be to revamp the Freenet web interface theme to look less ancient as > well. > I hate to say it, but I'm really starting to think that, while the previous website wasn't good, the current website might be worse, and we would have a much much better website if we had just stuck to the default Bootstrap CSS (which is what most people do). Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > On 11/07/2015 09:36 AM, Ian wrote: > ... > > That sentence doesn't make any more sense than anything else you've > > said. > > On 11/06/2015 06:59 PM, Ian wrote: > ... > > Yeah, that's about as convincing as your previous arguments, one of > > which is almost certainly factually incorrect, and the other is > > definitely factually incorrect. > > I'd like to call out these lines in particular for being jerkish. [0] As > we demonstrated in the discussion on moving the donation bar, (which > granted was much less controversial) it is entirely possible to come to > an agreement on things while avoiding personal attacks. I'd appreciate > it if everyone took care to maintain that behavior. > You're right, I apologize for my tone, although I stand by my observation that he is basing his argument on claims that are demonstrably incorrect with just a few seconds of Googling, which is pretty aggravating. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Freitag, 6. November 2015, 17:37:56 schrieb Ian: > > Originality might be important for art, but a website is a user-interface > > first, art (a distant) second. With a user interface, it is very rare > that > > doing something nobody else does is a good thing, normally there is a > good > > reason why nobody else is doing it. > > It used to be such that most programmer websites were light on > black. I trace the change of style more to the trend of more > programmers switching to Apple than to user interface research. > Actually user interface research tells us that black on white is the most readable combination (source <http://www.laurenscharff.com/research/survreslts.html>): As you can see, the most readable color combination is black text on white > background and... Also, in every color combination surveyed, the darker text on a lighter > background was rated more readable than its inverse (e.g. blue text on > white background ranked higher then white text on blue background). Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 5:50 AM, wrote: > >I'm pretty sure that isn't true. Not only does it not make any > sense whatsoever, but I can't find anything to back that up. Can you > support that claim? > > >That's not true. > > Both proven: > > http://youtube-global.blogspot.de/2011/03/were-turning-off-our-lights-in-honor-of.html Your statement: Youtube does dark background for saving energy once a year. Reality: Youtube did this once in 2011 for an hour, not to save energy (because this isn't how LCD screens work), but as a gesture. simply claiming an argument to be not convincing and pushing it close to > factual incorrectness is a knockout argument, > and rather reveals insistence on being right disquised as factual > argumentation, than being valuable for getting a discourse forward. > That sentence doesn't make any more sense than anything else you've said. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 5:54 PM, wrote: > Youtube does dark background for saving energy once a year. > I'm pretty sure that isn't true. Not only does it not make any sense whatsoever, but I can't find anything to back that up. Can you support that claim? So, not only at least one big website uses dark background, it's also good > for the environment. > That's not true <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-black-is/>. > Additionally, functionality really isn't a problem with current dark > background. Reasons: > - mostly there is less text / no huge text deserts > - the text builds a high contrast to the background, especially thanks to > bold typo and because the text is big enough > - it's not that colors on the website are so onesided and intense, that > uncomfortable compensation effects are happening (looking on red > background, switching to white background, seeing green although no green > is there) > If despite of all that it just has to be made more functional, I'd rather > make the space between the letters a tiny bit bigger, and if that's not > enough than would redo and instead of that choose a slightly bigger text > size. > Finally, asthetic design does matter. You eat with your eyes first, and > the current dark background as it is is the perfect reflection in design of > a key component of the freenet: The darknet. Yeah, that's about as convincing as your previous arguments, one of which is almost certainly factually incorrect, and the other is definitely factually incorrect. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 5:23 PM, wrote: > The dark background is fine. Functionally the current setting ain't that > bad, and aside of that the dark background > is a nice change. Consider that one aspect of beauty is rarity and > relations: > If everything looks alike (white background) across the internet, then > that look is not interesting or beautiful, but boring average. > Originality might be important for art, but a website is a user-interface first, art (a distant) second. With a user interface, it is very rare that doing something nobody else does is a good thing, normally there is a good reason why nobody else is doing it. In this case, almost nobody does dark backgrounds because it makes the site hard to read. The tool fails to do it's job. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:33 PM, xor wrote: > On Thursday, November 05, 2015 03:35:30 PM Ian wrote: > > Really? It looks nothing like a typical Bootstrap site. I think it > might > > have been better to stick much more closely to the standard Bootstrap CSS > > (eg. light background). > > With regards to "light background": We won't ever win this situation. > We had a light background, so people complained we should get a dark one. > I don't know who these "people" are that advocated for a dark background, but almost no other popular website on the Internet has a dark background and light text, likely because it makes the site difficult to read (which is the feedback we've been getting). Now we have a dark one, and people complain we should get a light one. > This IMHO is just a matter of taste, both are equally valid. > If both were equally valid, then how come almost no popular website on the Internet has a dark background? Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:15 PM, xor wrote: > On Thursday, November 05, 2015 03:40:31 PM Ian wrote: > > Also, I think the current site is worse than the version during testing > due > > to the placement of the donation bar, which it is clear is causing > > significant confusion. > > The main goal with the new large bar is having people see it since it is an > emergency fundraiser since we're unable to pay me... So due to the > emergency > it ought to be an eye-catcher and thus IMHO is fine to be the first thing > on > the page as it is now. > We're not Wikipedia, almost every visitor to Wikipedia already knows what Wikipedia is and why it might be deserving of their donations, most visitors to our website do not. Shouting "GIVE US MONEY!" before we've even explained what we are is not going to work, and will be counter-productive because it is obviously confusing people and turning them away from the site. With regards to the "it is impolite to first ask for money and only > afterwards > have the download button" criticism which was mentioned somewhere: > We should grow a spine and realize that it is not impolite. > It's not a question of politeness, it's simply a fact that shouting "GIVE US MONEY!" at people before we've explained anything about what we do won't work, and will drive them away from the site. This isn't speculation, people are already telling us this clearly (both on reddit and on IRC) We've really got to think about how we lay out the website from the perspective of visitors to the website, not from the perspective of what we want. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
By the way, I really don't mean to be harsh, you guys have done great work on the site, but in my experience listening to and acting on feedback is absolutely critical. It can be very difficult for the person that builds something to view it in the same way that other people do. In a different context I'm working on a slideshow for something right now, and I've asked for feedback from a bunch of people, and they were able to point out many issues I was oblivious to. Ian. On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Ian wrote: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Steve Dougherty > wrote: > >> Noted. That sort of feedback would have been much more helpful back when >> the redesign was in testing. >> > > Better late than never. That feedback is partially based on external > feedback - eg. the Reddit comments - which we didn't have back then. > > Also, I think the current site is worse than the version during testing > due to the placement of the donation bar, which it is clear is causing > significant confusion. > > Ian. > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > Noted. That sort of feedback would have been much more helpful back when > the redesign was in testing. > Better late than never. That feedback is partially based on external feedback - eg. the Reddit comments - which we didn't have back then. Also, I think the current site is worse than the version during testing due to the placement of the donation bar, which it is clear is causing significant confusion. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > This site is already using Bootstrap. > Really? It looks nothing like a typical Bootstrap site. I think it might have been better to stick much more closely to the standard Bootstrap CSS (eg. light background). Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
Thanks Arne. What do other people think of this feedback? Is there someone who is really willing to take ownership of getting the website into shape, perhaps using these pieces of feedback as a starting point? It will be a significant amount of work to address all of the points, but a well-designed website is critical to the project's success. It might be too late given the new design, but my recommendation might have been to start from something like Bootstrap <http://getbootstrap.com/>, which makes it brain-dead simple to create very attractive websites. I know a lot of developers without much design skill that have used it to very good effect. Ian. On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015, 22:56:40 schrieb Ian Clarke: > > This person put quite a bit of time into providing feedback on the new > > site. Probably not stuff we want to hear, but very valuable: > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/design_critiques/comments/3ri38h/we_recently_redesigned_our_website_would_love/cwoq0n4 > > I consider them good points and constructive. > > (regarding “time better spent”: the designer did not see the old site :)) > > A small step into the direction of telling why people want to use > Freenet: https://github.com/freenet/website/pull/21 > Not perfect, but a start. > > Second part: Moving the donation bar away from the top. We’re not > Wikipedia, people don’t come to our website to see our website, so > when we make it harder for them to see it, they will just not install > Freenet. > > Best wishes, > Arne > -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
This person put quite a bit of time into providing feedback on the new site. Probably not stuff we want to hear, but very valuable: https://www.reddit.com/r/design_critiques/comments/3ri38h/we_recently_redesigned_our_website_would_love/cwoq0n4 On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Ian Clarke wrote: > I like the donation bar, and the website is a huge improvement. > > However, I'm still very concerned about how much blank space there is on > our front page, while you have to scroll down to see any kind of real > explanation of what Freenet is. The bulk of the information is below the > fold. I really think the layout is all wrong here, and given that it's the > landing page, it is absolutely critical that we get it right. > > I'm also not a fan of the scrollbox as the primary means to explain what > Freenet is (it get's price of place in the middle of the page). I find it > pretty cumbersome. It might be good off to the side, but not right in the > middle of the first page people see (surrounded by mostly blank space). > > Can anyone think of any other well-designed website that has so much empty > space above the fold when the page is first loaded? I guess you could say > that Google does, but they have far less explaining to do. > > I've submitted it for feedback here: > https://www.reddit.com/r/design_critiques/comments/3ri38h/we_recently_redesigned_our_website_would_love/ > > Ian. > > -- > Ian Clarke > Founder, The Freenet Project > Email: i...@freenetproject.org > -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
Cool. Some feedback here: https://www.reddit.com/r/design_critiques/comments/3ri38h/we_recently_redesigned_our_website_would_love/ On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > We're aware of the excessive vertical space and are working on fixing it. > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, 10:39 AM Michael Grube > wrote: > > > Should the website maybe also mention Freenet's 501c3 status near the > > donation bar? > > On Nov 4, 2015 10:34 AM, "Ian Clarke" wrote: > > > > > I like the donation bar, and the website is a huge improvement. > > > > > > However, I'm still very concerned about how much blank space there is > on > > > our front page, while you have to scroll down to see any kind of real > > > explanation of what Freenet is. The bulk of the information is below > the > > > fold. I really think the layout is all wrong here, and given that it's > > the > > > landing page, it is absolutely critical that we get it right. > > > > > > I'm also not a fan of the scrollbox as the primary means to explain > what > > > Freenet is (it get's price of place in the middle of the page). I find > > it > > > pretty cumbersome. It might be good off to the side, but not right in > > the > > > middle of the first page people see (surrounded by mostly blank space). > > > > > > Can anyone think of any other well-designed website that has so much > > empty > > > space above the fold when the page is first loaded? I guess you could > > say > > > that Google does, but they have far less explaining to do. > > > > > > I've submitted it for feedback here: > > > > > > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/design_critiques/comments/3ri38h/we_recently_redesigned_our_website_would_love/ > > > > > > Ian. > > > > > > -- > > > Ian Clarke > > > Founder, The Freenet Project > > > Email: i...@freenetproject.org > > > ___ > > > Devl mailing list > > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > > ___ > > Devl mailing list > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] Thoughts on website
I like the donation bar, and the website is a huge improvement. However, I'm still very concerned about how much blank space there is on our front page, while you have to scroll down to see any kind of real explanation of what Freenet is. The bulk of the information is below the fold. I really think the layout is all wrong here, and given that it's the landing page, it is absolutely critical that we get it right. I'm also not a fan of the scrollbox as the primary means to explain what Freenet is (it get's price of place in the middle of the page). I find it pretty cumbersome. It might be good off to the side, but not right in the middle of the first page people see (surrounded by mostly blank space). Can anyone think of any other well-designed website that has so much empty space above the fold when the page is first loaded? I guess you could say that Google does, but they have far less explaining to do. I've submitted it for feedback here: https://www.reddit.com/r/design_critiques/comments/3ri38h/we_recently_redesigned_our_website_would_love/ Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Request for comments: Change list+IRC policy to avoid full rewrite flamewars
I don't think censorship is the answer :) Look, anyone can join the mailing list and can suggest whatever they want. You can ignore them (probably the best option). If someone feels like responding they can, but just because something is generating a discussion thread does *not* mean that it's going to result in some dramatic change in direction. Freenet has been around a *long* time, and we have a 16-year track record of *not* making hasty and dramatic changes to project direction. That's not going to change any time soon. That's not to say that we shouldn't be willing to consider out-of-the-box ideas, but there is a big difference between considering something and actually doing it. Ian. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 7:14 PM, xor wrote: > Imagine the following situation: > You're a volunteer who donated months of his spare time, and thus months of > his life, to write a plugin for a piece of software. > > Then someone comes along, and demands the parent piece of software to be > rewritten from scratch. Maybe because he doesn't like it, maybe because > $programming_language != $cool_language_of_the_year. > This would render your plugin useless, as your Java module can't be fixed > to > load into the C rewrite. > > We can assume that any human will be interested in his work of months or > even > years not being thrown away. So as a volunteer, you will be interested in > finding a way to keep your module loading. > The rewrite could go down one of the following paths, with different things > you'll have to do to keep your module usable: > > A) The fork replaces the original software. It takes over its name, its > website, its mailing lists, its IRC channel, etc. You, as someone > interested > in the original software, have to fork the original pre-write software so > you > can continue to provide your module loadable into it. You have to set up a > new website, new mailing lists, IRC channels, etc., just to keep the > original > software alive. > > B) The one who wants to do a rewrite "forks" the project, i.e. develops the > rewrite on his own. New name, new software. The original project continues > its > development as is. The rewrite happens elsewhere. You don't need to do > *anything* to keep your plugin working, as the original project still > exists. > The rewriter has the burden of setting up infrastructure for his fork. He > sets > up a website, mailing lists, etc. You're not concerned. > > Which approach is more polite towards our example volunteer who spend > months > writing code for the original software? > B obviously, as it doesn't cause any work for him. > > I would go as far as saying that "fork does not replace original project" > is > actually always the real situation anyway: You cannot force people to stop > working on a GPL software. Any full rewrite is de-facto a different > software. > > Thus, how about this new etiquette rule for the mailing lists, IRC, etc.: > If discussions about rewriting Freenet happen again, we ask people > politely to > conduct them on the communication channels of their fork; not on ours. > We're not responsible for providing infrastructure for their projects, and > this includes discussion space. > > I know this is sort of passive aggressive, but I don't think we're doing > ourselves a favor with letting the rewrite discussions happen: > They might be an intentional attack by the NSA [1]: > Disturb developers so much with outrageous demands that they spent 100% of > their time in discussing with the attacker; and 0% on writing code. > All it takes to conduct this attack is an email address (= $ 0) and a few > hours of a bored student (= $a_few_beers). > In fact the discussions are already growing so large that they could > consume > 100% of my worktime if I tried to reply to all mails. > > To avoid another huge discussion, I would recommend you reply with a simple > vote: "Yes, let's change the rules to disallow rewrite discussions." or "No > please don't." > > Greetings & thanks for reading > > [1] http://draketo.de/english/freenet/de-orchestrating-phk > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] A bold idea for discussion: "Freenet 2"
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:43 PM, xor wrote: > > Please please don't try to split the developer community like you just did, > we're lucky that the situation has improved to the point where I can barely > keep up with the IRC backlog. > Keep your shirt on - I described this as a bold strategy - and made it clear that it was only for the purposes of discussion. I agree with many of the disadvantages of doing this. It doesn't hurt to consider "out of the box" ideas once in a while. However, it's clear that some people are very dissatisfied with the current state of Freenet. Whatever we call it, it's possible that Tahrir might be of interest to them (it wouldn't be depriving Freenet of anything because such people are unlikely to contribute to Freenet). Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] working together as a community with a covert adversary
Nice article Arne. While I hope there haven't been deliberate efforts to disrupt the project through the psyops mechanisms you describe, I do think we do a pretty good job of disrupting it ourselves sometimes. The tone on this list frequently leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not blameless in this, although generally I try to only respond with negativity in response to negativity. We're not the only project <http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/> with this problem. Ian. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Hi, > > Given the recent threads, I’d like to share some thoughts on working > together as community with a strong but covert adversary. > > There are lots of ways to disrupt work without leaving obvious traces, > but most of them can be disarmed with a simple tactic: > > Stay friendly, stick together, keep honest and greet every > newcomer as a potential ally. > > And call out disrupting behaviour early on: If someone insults new > folks or takes up huge amounts of discussion time by rehashing old > discussions instead of talking about the way forward - in a way which > actually leads to going forward - then say that this is your > impression. Still stay friendly: Most of the time that’s not > intentional. And people can be affected by outside influences like > someone attacking them in other channels, so it would be important to > help them recover and not to push them away because their behaviour > became toxic for some time (as long as the time investment for that is > not overarching). > > Overall it’s about keeping the community together despite the > knowledge that some of us might actually be aggressors or influenced > from the outside to disrupt our work. > > I wrote a bit more on that, including what got me to write it, in > > De-Orchestrating Freenet with the QUEEN program > What if Poul-Henning Kamp was right? > http://draketo.de/english/freenet/de-orchestrating-phk > > I hope you enjoyed reading the text, and I’m looking forward to keep > working with you. > > Best wishes, > Arne > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] A bold idea for discussion: "Freenet 2"
For those that appear to be craving a "bold new strategy", one thing I've proposed in the past would be to put the main Freenet codebase in "maintenance mode", and throw our resources behind http://tahrirproject.org/ (possibly renaming it "Freenet 2" since Tahrir is a terrible name). Tahrir addresses several key concerns: - The people we actually want to help, those in China, Iran, etc, often have very constrained bandwidth. Tahrir is designed for this, Freenet is a bandwidth hog - Tahrir is designed for a Twitter/Facebook type use-case ("microblogging"), which has proven very powerful in terms of promoting political change - It's a fresh-ish codebase, much smaller, although needs some cobwebs blown off - Can incorporate a mixnet, but actually better suited to a mixnet than Tor because latency is less of an issue Clearly, this would not be a direct successor to Freenet, it would not be backwards compatible, and would be designed for a different (but perhaps more current) use-case. Thoughts? Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Florent Daigniere < nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:43 -0600, Ian wrote: > Most of their funding comes from the government and they have ensured > that their technology can be used by them (those sponsors). > A long time ago I also sought funding from the US government. They were interested but in the end they didn't bite. Remember that Tor was designed by the US Navy, that gave them a pretty big advantage when it came to seeking government funding. > We have created a technology that is meant to "fight" governments... > while carefully avoiding any specific usecase that would have attracted > their wrath (the copyright infringement brigade, ...) but would have > significantly increased the user-base. > Building "Napster 2" was never my goal, nor the goal of anyone involved in the project during its first few years. Going down that route would simply have ensnared us in legal turmoil (meaning that most or all of our donations would have gone to pay for lawyers). > In your initial "project status" email, your focus seems to be "paying > the bills". Is that the problem at hand? If so we do need a strategy. > I believe I was referring to myself, not the project. I have bills to pay. > > We don't because we chose not to. We could have settled on a simpler > > > problem; > > > > > > Sure, there are an infinity of other problems we could have settled > > on, but > > then that wouldn't be Freenet. > > > > I've always thought that Freenet can't be anything more than a research > project. You've conveniently dropped that alternative from my reply. > > If we agree that Freenet is a reseach project then we can look at how > we can fund such a thing. Freenet is a research project, or it has been, it's also software that people can download and use. These aren't mutually exclusive, in fact it's pretty-much impossible to experiment with P2P software in a lab, you have to deploy it. > The classical answer is publishing and grants > (what GNUnet does) and/or no paid staff. > Those guys are academics, publishing and finding grants is their skillset. We have published papers in the past (by people like Theodore Hong, who is an academic and therefore it's his skillset). Nothing to prevent people from publishing papers and/or applying for grants. The problem is that that isn't the skillset of the current volunteers. People seem to be under the impression that I can simply decree that "we will now publish papers and apply for grants" and it will happen. It doesn't work like that. If a volunteer decides to do it and then does it, then it will happen, if they don't, it won't. I can't tell people to do anything that they don't want to do. > We've never used the funding we had for publishing nor applying for > more grants; maybe we should have. > Because it wasn't anyone's skillset, but if someone wanted to do it and had the skillset to do it, they were free to do it. > If we don't agree on the fact that Freenet is a research project then > I'd like to be told what it is (or meant to be). The current security > model doesn't fit anyone's use-case. > I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "research project", or what impact you think it would have for us to declare that Freenet is a "research project". It wouldn't suddenly cause people to start throwing grants at us, someone still has to do the work of applying, and there is nothing to prevent them from doing that today. > Years ago (back when I had free time) I meant to fork the project, I've > regretted not doing so ever since. I've never liked the trade-offs > financial concerns made us do. To give you an example: > opennet/darknet/hybrid. If it had been up to me, Opennet wouldn't have > existed and Darknet might be usable by now... but the concern at the > time was how to find funds for Matthew. > It wasn't about funding. The concern at the time was that a darknet-only Freenet has a very serious cold-start problem, because it dramatically raises the barrier to entry for joining the network, since it requires that you already know someone that runs Freenet. Opennet was a way to get around that problem. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 11:02 -0600, Ian wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:55 -0600, Ian wrote: > > > > Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship - Robert C. > > > Martin > > > > - ISBN 978-0132350884 > > > > > > Why, what do they say in the book that isn't said elsewhere? > > > I don't really have time to type the entire book into an email for you. > > I'm asking why you think it's worth reading. Someone on a mailing list > saying "read this" and expecting me to trust them is generally not a > good enough reason for me to spend the time reading a book. Especially > when the guy has said the kind of things you've said. > Look, I really don't have a vested interest in your education. If my recommendation isn't enough for you then by all means, don't read the book. I don't care. I've told you how you can learn more about the author without spending a dime. I'll also say that some of the best software engineers I've worked with are big fans of Bob Martin's coding philosophy. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:55 -0600, Ian wrote: > > Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship - Robert C. > Martin > > - ISBN 978-0132350884 > > Why, what do they say in the book that isn't said elsewhere? I don't really have time to type the entire book into an email for you. If you're not morally opposed to YouTube, search for Robert C Martin, he has a lot of lectures on there. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:43 -0600, Ian wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:35 -0600, Ian wrote: > > > > > > > Anyone educated on modern software development practices knows that > > > > well-written code is self-documenting > > > > > > I disagree. > > > > > > Read the book I referenced > > You haven't given me a reference, you've given me a URL to a web page at > Amazon, which I haven't followed. Because it's Amazon. I'm sorry that I failed to correctly anticipate your particular brand of tinfoil hat prior to sending that email. Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship - Robert C. Martin - ISBN 978-0132350884 Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:32 -0600, Ian wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not claiming that Linux won just because they spent more time > writing > > > > code than documentation > > > > > > What are you claiming then? > > > > > > > That devoting resources to documenting Freenet's protocol is a solution > to > > a non-problem given the current status of the project. > > What is the current status of the project? > Read the email I wrote that started this whole thread. > > If you don't find the goals of the project attractive, why are you here? > > What are the goals of the project? To ensure that two or more people that wish to exchange information have the freedom to do so without government censorship or punishment. You're not aware of this? Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:35 -0600, Ian wrote: > > > Anyone educated on modern software development practices knows that > > well-written code is self-documenting > > I disagree. Read the book I referenced, it will change your mind. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Florent Daigniere < nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:11 -0600, Ian wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Florent Daigniere < > > nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote: > > > Tor and its ecosystem is a better example... > > > Tor is a much more mature project than Freenet, > > Well, it's not older > You know that's not what "mature" means. > > with vastly more resources, > > Sure, but that's also by choice and thanks to a consistent strategy > (funding wise if nothing else). > In what way is that "by choice"? > > and a much simpler underlying design, because ultimately it's solving > > a > > simpler problem. > > A simpler problem for which they've found a variety of users (and the > associated sponsors). > Yes, so? We don't because we chose not to. We could have settled on a simpler > problem; Sure, there are an infinity of other problems we could have settled on, but then that wouldn't be Freenet. > Any of the above is superior to what we're doing at the moment (chose > not to have a strategy and an absent leader). > Find someone better to coordinate the project and I'll happily step-aside in a heartbeat. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 10:14 -0600, Ian wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > > > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 08:57 -0600, Ian wrote: > > > > > You may also be unaware that in the ideal case, well-written code is > > > > self-documenting > > > > > > I find that assertion to be absurd. > > > > > > > Then you should educate yourself <http://amzn.com/0132350882> about > modern > > software development practices. > > You presume I am not educated on modern software development practices. > On the contrary, I find your assertion to be absurd precisely because of > my awareness. Anyone educated on modern software development practices knows that well-written code is self-documenting, so I'm not presuming anything, your statements speak for themselves. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > > > I'm not claiming that Linux won just because they spent more time writing > > code than documentation > > What are you claiming then? > That devoting resources to documenting Freenet's protocol is a solution to a non-problem given the current status of the project. > > there are many software engineers that > > died in the decades they waited for microkernels to become useful. > > How many have died in the 1.5 decades since Freenet began? > Freenet has been usable, and in-use by non-software developers virtually since the beginning of the project. Hurd remains an experiment 25 years later. > Do you see a long line of software developers just waiting to reimplement > > Freenet, if only they had comprehensive documentation? You're dreaming. > > We barely have the resources to maintain and advance one implementation > of > > Freenet. > > Have you considered that the reason you have trouble attracting > developers is because what you're doing is not attractive to them? > Compare the HURD wiki and the recent expensive revamp of the Freenet > website. The HURD wiki is useful. The Freenet website is shiny. When > there are only shiny things and no useful things, hackers stay away. If you don't find the goals of the project attractive, why are you here? Actually, I think many more people are interested in anonymity systems like Freenet today than back when the project began, so no, I don't think that's why we're having trouble attracting developers. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > On Tue, 2015-11-03 at 08:57 -0600, Ian wrote: > > The GNU Hurd is a cautionary tale, not a model for software > > development. > > If GNU Hurd is a cautionary tale, what is Freenet? > Did I say Freenet was perfect? I said the opposite. > > You may also be unaware that in the ideal case, well-written code is > > self-documenting > > I find that assertion to be absurd. > Then you should educate yourself <http://amzn.com/0132350882> about modern software development practices. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Florent Daigniere < nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote: > > Tor and its ecosystem is a better example... > Tor is a much more mature project than Freenet, with vastly more resources, and a much simpler underlying design, because ultimately it's solving a simpler problem. Sure, it would be great to have those advantages, but we don't. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 9:14 AM, Ximin Luo wrote: > > You're applying a generalisation inappropriately here. Linux did not win > because they spent time writing code instead of documentation. They did > both. And even now they're taking ideas from Hurd and microkernel theory. > I'm not claiming that Linux won just because they spent more time writing code than documentation, however Linux definitely had a "code first, ask questions later" philosophy, whereas Hurd was a much more "theoretical" exercise. You might want to read or re-read this <http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/opensources/book/appa.html> debate between Torvalds and Tanenbaum > The Agile manifesto is a load of crap. I've seen more teams and more > projects destroy themselves by deferring to the Agile manifesto to excuse > bad engineering, than destroy themselves by overengineering and > overdocumentation. > Apparently you've seen a lot of poorly run projects. I agree that agile has become a dogma of sorts, and like any dogma it can be abused, however the underlying principles are solid, which is why nobody seriously defends a waterfall software development methodology any more. You may not like agile, and you might have seen mediocre engineers use it to defend their mediocrity, but the general idea of "shut-up and code" won the battle of ideas a long time ago. Also Bob was talking about the current Hurd project. It's a stretch to say > that Hurd lost "because" of overdocumentation. There were technical > problems with microkernel architecture that were not solved for a long > time, less people in FOSS understood it, blah blah blah. Some microkernels > like L4 are becoming more succesful today, and in the long run they have > inherent advantages over monolithic kernels, such as being easier to > formally verify. > Yes, even 23 years ago they were making the same arguments, "microkernels are better in the long run", the problem is that in the long run we're all dead. That's not an exaggeration, there are many software engineers that died in the decades they waited for microkernels to become useful. > > You may also be unaware that in the ideal case, well-written code is > > self-documenting, making external documentation unnecessary. This is one > > of the tenants of the "clean code" methodology. > > This is for *other developers*, not for external reviewers Of course well written self-documenting code is for external reviewers. If someone is going to review something, much better that they review working code than some document that purports (but might not) describe the working code. > or other projects that might to interoperate with different components of > your product. It's irrelevant to what's being discussed. Do you see a long line of software developers just waiting to reimplement Freenet, if only they had comprehensive documentation? You're dreaming. We barely have the resources to maintain and advance one implementation of Freenet. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Multiple implementations considered harmful was Re: Project Status
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:04 AM, Bob Ham wrote: > > I will now make a concrete suggestion: start writing things down. It's interesting that you would point to the Hurd as an example of how a software project should be run, perhaps if they had spent more time on code and less on documentation, as Linux did, Linux wouldn't have utterly won that battle. The GNU Hurd is a cautionary tale, not a model for software development. As for your belief that documentation will solve everything (as it clearly didn't for GNU Hurd), you may not be aware of the "Agile manifesto", which has become the dominant project management methodology over the past 15 years or so. On of the tenants of this is "Working software over comprehensive documentation". You may also be unaware that in the ideal case, well-written code is self-documenting, making external documentation unnecessary. This is one of the tenants of the "clean code" methodology. Unfortunately our codebase certainly does not live up to this ideal, however time would be better spent improving our code such that it is self-documenting, rather than producing vast amounts of documentation nobody will read. I don't claim that we are perfect, far from it, but if you think that dropping everything and producing vast amounts of documentation will solve anything, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Freenet debian package
On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 4:51 AM, Florent Daigniere < nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote: > What's the part you don't understand? > Can we please try to maintain a level of civility? Nobody wants to work for free only to be insulted. And yes, I recognize that my own record probably isn't perfect here. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Git push access
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > > > Ian, Toad and NextGens are the only current admins of the GitHub org, > > but none of them are very active on the project. Should we add > > another more active person as admin? > > That would be good. > Definitely, any volunteers? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] A/B testing of website
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 2:01 PM, wrote: > Self hosted A/B network. > > https://github.com/maccman/abba Looks interesting, have you used it? -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Metrics
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:56 PM, wrote: > Freenet users have the reasonable expectation they won't be tracked by a > corporate third party when visiting a privacy promoting website. Firstly, nobody visiting any website on the web should have such an expectation, that's one of the reasons for creating Freenet in the first place. Freenet is on a server that is hosted by a corporate third party, accessed via network links that are all owned by corporate third parties - there is no way around it. Secondly, the purpose of Freenet is to promote freedom of communication. There is overlap between that goal and the goal of promoting privacy, but they're not the same thing, and occasionally they conflict, so we should avoid conflating the two things. But I agree that if we can get all the functionality we need without using Google Analytics then we shouldn't use it, but pretending that you have any privacy from corporate third parties when visiting any website on the web, including freenetproject.org, is just promoting ignorance. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] A/B testing of website
It would be great if we could try to use A/B testing to inform future design changes with the website. One key metric to monitor would be "downloads per visit". To do this we'll need to use some kind of A/B testing framework. I've used Optimizely in the past, but it is expensive. It appears that Google's "Website Optimizer", which was free, has been discontinued. Does anyone have any experience with A/B testing frameworks that might be suitable for our needs? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Metrics
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:38 PM, wrote: > For Pete's sake don't run Google analytics on your site. I saw a ticket > for it on bug tracker. Out of interest - why not? Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > On 10/22/2015 10:58 PM, Ian Clarke wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Steve Dougherty > > wrote: > ... > >> I don't understand what you mean by this exactly. Reduce padding between > >> sections and put the download button where? Up in the menu? > >> > > > > Probably below the menu, but in the top-right of the page. That way it's > > very prominent, but not the immediate thing that attracts attention. > > Why? > Because before they download we need to give them at least a tiny bit of information about why they might want to download. That's the intent of the slides, which are above the button: it starts > on "Avoid Censorship" "Freenet is a platform for censorship-resistant > communication and publishing. ..." > > Is that more verbose than you were thinking? > I think many of text of these slides are good, but I'm concerned about the means of presentation - websites do sometimes use slides for things like user-testimonials, but not the core explanation for why they should be interested in the software. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Project Status
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > > While it's true that we can't exactly "leave the anonymity to Tor," I do > think we could be able to make use of Tor. If we can get a TCP transport > plugin working people can set up a node as a hidden service and reduce > the visibility of running a node. If we were getting a lot of complaints about Freenet being too fast, too easy to install, too easy to use, or not bloated enough, then bundling Tor would be a great way to solve all of these complaints. Otherwise, it still seems like a really awful idea. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > > > Another thing is that there is a lot of empty space "above the fold", > > mostly to accommodate the central placement of the "Download Freenet" > > button I think. > > Yep. Ademan and I are looking into reducing the amount of vertical space > between the menu and the first section on the main page. > > > Could we move the "What is Freenet?" section up, and perhaps move the > > download link to the top right of the page? > > I don't understand what you mean by this exactly. Reduce padding between > sections and put the download button where? Up in the menu? > Probably below the menu, but in the top-right of the page. That way it's very prominent, but not the immediate thing that attracts attention. I think right now the first thing people are encouraged to look at is the Download button, but to figure out why they might want to consider downloading, they have to scroll down to the "What is Freenet?" section. I think we need a very concise explanation of why they would want to download Freenet as the focal point for the front page. Thoughts? Ian. -- Ian Clarke Blog: http://blog.locut.us/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
Yay! I think it's a huge improvement. One issue is there are a couple of places that could use a bit more contrast, particularly the "SUMA Award" logo should probably be brighter. Another thing is that there is a lot of empty space "above the fold", mostly to accommodate the central placement of the "Download Freenet" button I think. Could we move the "What is Freenet?" section up, and perhaps move the download link to the top right of the page? Ian. On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 5:41 AM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > The site is now live. > > On 10/05/2015 05:22 AM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > > It's given in the prompt: both are "guest". > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2015, 11:41 PM Ian wrote: > > > > > > What's the username/pwd for https://testing.freenetproject.org/ ? > > > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 10:40 PM, Steve Dougherty > > wrote: > > > >> On 09/29/2015 07:26 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > >> > Am Dienstag, 29. September 2015, 14:50:27 schrieb Ian Clarke: > >> >> - Website badly needs an update, it looks very dated and frankly a > >> bit > >> >> spammy. Bootstrap <http://getbootstrap.com/> > >> >> anyone, or even the Github page generator > >> >> <https://github.com/blog/1081-instantly-beautiful-project-pages> > >> >> would be a big improvement > >> > > >> > Gerard created a new site a few months ago and we've been working on > >> > finalizing it since then. Yesterday he uploaded a new test-version: > > > >> I spent the weekend on this and I think it's almost ready. When I get > >> more time to devote to it I'll upload it to Transifex and put out a call > >> for translators. I'd like to avoid deploying it with fewer words > >> translated than the current site, but I'll put a 2-week maximum on how > >> long to wait. > > > >> The current development state of the site remains here: > > > >> https://testing.freenetproject.org/ > > > >> and my fork is > > > >> https://github.com/Thynix/freenet-website > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Project Status
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 6:38 PM, wrote: > Step back and take a deep breath. I'm not telling you to shutdown your > website and foundation and host your project on Tor' s site. > I didn't say that, so perhaps you should re-read my last email. > I'm questioning if the overhead of designing and maintaining yet another > anonymity protocol makes sense given Freenet's current situation. You can > concentrate on polishing Freenet UX and storage algorithms instead and > leave the anonymity to Tor. As I already said in my previous email, that is nonsense. Freenet's "anonymity" is at the core of what Freenet is. You can't just "unplug" the anonymity and plug Tor in in it's place. It doesn't work like that. > Its an intensive process coming up with something that stands up against > serious enemies. Tor gets most of the academic community's attention > improving against attacks all the time. You get this for free by switching > to their protocol for transport. > Tor's anonymity is easier to prove because Tor is way less ambitious than Freenet (one of the reasons Tor was easily blocked by the Chinese government). You're advocating that we replace the very thing that makes Freenet different. If we did that, what would be the point of continuing with the project? Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Project Status
Software isn't like playdough, you can't take two different software projects and just stick them together, and expect the result to make sense (even if the projects have related goals). In terms of the benefits of an alliance with Tor I'm afraid you're being naive. From Tor's perspective, an "alliance" with Freenet would make absolutely no sense. They'd essentially just be diverting developers, users, and funding away from their own project. Don't get me wrong, they're nice guys, but it would simply be irrational. Tor and Freenet might be related at a high-level, but this whole idea that separate software projects should all be glued together into one huge mass of bloatware is very misguided. It's the polar opposite of the Unix philosophy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy>. I wish people would stop suggesting it. It wouldn't solve any problem and would be a massive waste of time and resources. Ian. On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:35 PM, wrote: > I am a Freenet user and want you to succeed so look at my words from that > angle. > > You are missing out on an obvious natural alliance with Tor that can bring > in many benefits from funding, users, publicity and manpower. The Tor > project also invested a lot in private client side applications like the > Tor browser and Tor birdy that you can combine. Not to denigrate your work > but its fact, their anonymity transport layer is more advanced and has > undergone more scrutiny and is trusted. I've talked with people who love > the Freenet concept but are reluctant to use it because they don't feel its > powerful enough to withstand NSA. I find it hard to convince them otherwise > when there is a trickle of papers about Freenet's anonymity protection and > no mention of it being a challenge to NSA like the Tor slides and they > trust what Snowden used. > > With that said, Freenet's real power is resilient and distributed data > hosting, unmatched by Tor hidden services that were designed as an > afterthought. Together both technologies are a perfect fit. They should not > compete. > > My point here is to keep the parts of the protocol where Freenet users can > automatically find each other and request data but to offload the traffic > hiding part to Tor. Don't put users in a situation where they have to > choose between both. Each project does one thing well and together they > give users the cypherpunk vision of freedom. > > More users means more technical people who will become interested and help > out. It becomes self sustaining. You've built it but you need to integrate > it right and they will come. > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Project Status
In a way, Tahrir <http://tahrirproject.org/> was sort of my attempt to "reboot" the Freenet concept. It was motivated by a few realizations: - In many of the countries where the Internet is censored, bandwidth is a rare concept, yet P2P systems (including Freenet) treat it as being practically free (as it often is in wealthy western countries). - When we started Freenet, I don't think anyone recognized the power of "micro-blogging" systems like Twitter and Facebook. Conveniently, given the previous point, micro-blogging can have much lower bandwidth requirements. So I set about designing it, even getting some students to work on it through Google Summer of Code. Progress was made, but unfortunately the students were far less experienced than they probably needed to be (not their fault, they were students after all), and we never got it to an initial working release. Regarding Java, I don't agree that we should adopt some other programming language because it's "cool" and Java isn't. In fact "coolness" is perhaps the worst possible basis on which to select a programming language! Java is still the world's most popular programming language, and while it somewhat stagnated under Sun, Oracle is making progress again, Java8 is the most significant release since Java5. I think Java is still the right bet for these reasons. As for Scala, I was a fan in the early days, but I think it is has jumped the shark. Its type system is too complicated, and its development has been too undisciplined (with important functionality getting deprecated without any clear replacements). My personal favorite post-Java JVM language is Kotlin <http://kotlinlang.org/>. However, one of the most important characteristics of any programming language is how many people are proficient in it, and Java remains the clear winner here. If I were building a new desktop app starting today, I'd probably still use Java, but use a JavaScript framework like Bootstrap/React for the front-end, communicating with a Java back-end via HTTP-REST. Ian. On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Zlatin Balevsky wrote: > I first got involved in Freenet when it was 0.2. At the time it was using > cutting edge technologies and an contributing was an opportunity to learn > valuable skills. Contributing was fun and that was the driving factor. > > If Freenet was to start fresh, it should do whatever it takes to regain the > coolness factor. That means embracing new tools and technologies even if > there is no strict technological advantage in doing so. For better or > worse Java will never be hip with the open-source crowd, and personally, > after 10 hours of looking at Java code for my day job the last thing I want > is to look at more Java code in my free time. Some exotic new language > like Scala or Go or whatever the $COOL_LANGUAGE_DU_JOUR is would be a > different story. > > Yes this can lead to fragmentation as various contributors veer off each > into their own direction; it's the job of the leader to keep things > coherent and aligned with the project vision. It's very easy to > underestimate how difficult the job of the leader is. > > Lastly, I'd like to point out that mobile is the future - not that I like > that a single bit. > > zab/topiltzin > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Dan Roberts wrote: > > > Hi Everyone, > > Regarding fundraising, perhaps it's time to reconsider Patreon, > > Gratipay, and/or Bountysource? Personally, I think Patreon may be > > promising. Afaict it has the largest volume of funding. Somehow the > public > > has found money to support lots of silly entertainment projects on a > > recurring basis (not to denigrate those projects). With the right pitch, > by > > appealing to privacy concerns and freedom of expression, I think Freenet > > has a chance of capturing funding through that platform. Funding software > > seems to be a difficult proposition to users in general, but it can be > > done. > > > > I doubt these would be sufficient to pay for development but they could > > keep the lights on. Obviously these suggestions are just suggestions, but > > from my quick perusal of the archives, it didn't look like Patreon or > > Gratipay have received serious consideration, and bountysource appeared > to > > be more or less ruled out (but bountysource has changed enough to warrant > > reconsideration too?). > > > > If there's interest in any of these options, but lack of time, perhaps I > > could contribute in that capacity by writing first passes of the > requisite > > campaigns, since I doubt I'll be up-to-speed on the code base any time > > soon. >
[freenet-dev] Project Status
I think it's time for us all to take a step back and have a serious conversation about where we are, and where we are going. Our current bank account balance is US$1,184.32, our current PayPal balance is $1,201.60. Even at Xor's very low hourly rate (he could get a lot more commercially given his skillset - which we should all appreciate him for) this is less than 100 hours of remaining availability. He needs to prepare for finding an alternate income source. We have a new website in the works, which is great, and many people have been working valiantly to support the project, but it's hard to escape the feeling that we're almost in a "maintenance mode". The problem with that is that you just can't generate enough excitement to attract funding in that situation. I will be the first to admit that I have had very limited time to devote to the project in recent years. I have been much more of an administrator than a leader. I don't claim otherwise. The weird thing is that, even as a 15 year old project, Freenet is more relevant now than ever. Back in the early days we received a lot of publicity, but it was mostly because the media thought of Freenet as an "indestructible Napster". This completely missed the point, of course. But now the world has caught up with us. The Internet has been recognized as the political tool that it is, people see the effects of Internet censorship in controlling the debate, it seems that there is a vaporware project almost every week that claims to do what Freenet was designed to do over 15 years ago. But unfortunately we are a 15-year-old project, and irrespective of its new-found relevance, it's very difficult to get people excited about a project that has been around for so long. Anyway, I don't want to say too much because I'd prefer for this to be more of a conversation than a lecture, but I would appreciate people's thoughts on this. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Dependency management was Re: Behind the times
If your bootstrap gcc isn't compiled from source then it's irrelevant what else is. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack -- sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and typos On Oct 13, 2015 5:14 PM, "Arne Babenhauserheide" wrote: > Am Dienstag, 13. Oktober 2015, 10:13:07 schrieb Ian: > > Can you explain to me how anyone can use a modern computer for anything > > without trusting someone else's binaries? Let's live in reality here. > > Gentoo GNU/Linux builds everything from source, and once gcc is > bootstrapped and the stage3-files are rebuilt, only source packages > get downloaded. For several years my jdk (icedtea 6 back then) was > built using gcj. > > So this is possible right now (I use Gentoo at home and at work), and > not even inconvenient if you have a desktop system which runs anyway > (then the compile times don’t matter). > > Best wishes, > Arne > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Dependency management was Re: Behind the times
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 3:26 AM, wrote: > > That's far from the only danger... > > If we make "building freenet" depend on "running freenet" to "download > freenet over freenet", I'd like someone to explain to me how it can work > without trusting someone else's binaries. > Can you explain to me how anyone can use a modern computer for anything without trusting someone else's binaries? Let's live in reality here. Regardless, the top priority (as far as this part of the discussion is concerned) is to migrate the project over to a modern build system, most likely Gradle. Support for downloading dependencies from Freenet (or through Tor) would be nice but should be way down the list of priorities. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Dependency management was Re: Behind the times
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > Am Sonntag, 11. Oktober 2015, 20:37:32 schrieb Zlatin Balevsky: > > Developers who care about their anonymity can force gradle or maven to > use > > a tor proxy > > Can we make Tor or repo-over-freenet the default for people who build > freenet? > Since Freenet can (in theory) do it, I think it would be much better to use Freenet from an "eat your own dogfood" perspective. I think the only danger here is that we further complicate things for a developer trying to get into the project. Ian. > > Best wishes, > Arne > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Dependency management was Re: Behind the times
Good point. Or we could mirror the repos in Freenet, more dogfoody. On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Zlatin Balevsky wrote: > Developers who care about their anonymity can force gradle or maven to use > a tor proxy > > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Steve Dougherty > wrote: > > > On 10/10/2015 04:14 PM, Matthew Toseland wrote: > > > On 06/10/15 15:10, Ian Clarke wrote: > > >> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 4:39 AM, xor wrote: > > ... > > > Deploying build-time dependencies via Gradle is not appropriate IMHO: > It > > > means updating them is *our* responsibility, and it increases our > > > maintenance overheads as a result, and reduces the end-user's security. > > > Updating JUnit etc is the distribution's responsibility, not ours. And > > > anything that doesn't get updated is a security risk. > > > > In what way does it make updating them our responsibility? Checksum > > pinning does that inherently already. Charles linked to gradle-witness > > and it looks like exactly what we're looking for: transitive dependency > > checksum verification. https://github.com/WhisperSystems/gradle-witness > > > > > > ___ > > Devl mailing list > > Devl@freenetproject.org > > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Simplified contribution guideline, was: "Re: Behind the times"
I agree with the motives of this, but isn't requiring that new developers personally interact via IRC just to get started an admission of defeat? That shouldn't be necessary, and there is no reason for it to be necessary. It's not necessary in other open source projects. Ian. On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 5:06 AM, xor wrote: > As an alternate solution to the Ant/Maven discussion, here's a different > approach to attracting new developers... > > The complex "Get involved" guide https://freenetproject.org/developer.html > which currently says how to Git clone / obtain libraries / compile, shall > be > replaced by those 3 steps: > > > How to contribute to Freenet: > > > > 1. Install Freenet: By running Freenet, you can donate part of your > > diskspace and bandwidth to the community. > > > > 2. Chose a subproject you like and want to contribute to: > > https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Projects > > > > 3. Join the developers' chat on IRC at [link to webchat]. Tell us that > > you'd like to contribute to your project of choice: We will help you > > with obtaining the source code of your favorite project; and tell you > where > > you can find its TODO list. > > This avoids the problem of build systems entirely by offering newbies to > help > them personally with compiling. Thats a good idea anyway since we'll never > be > able to make *ALL* sub-projects use the same build system. > > Further, it is more focused on what a new developer is probably interested > in: > *What* to work on, not *how* the work will look specifically in terms of > command line tools. > > The sub-project list https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Projects should > provide > an up-to-date overview since I spent quite a few hours on completing it > just > the last week. I'll also make sure to keep maintaining it, as I think > having a > full list of all software built on top of Freenet is absolutely mandatory > for > being able to finally get everything bundled-by-default. > > Credit for discovering that the current "Get involved" guide is too complex > goes to Steve! Thanks! :) -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 4:39 AM, xor wrote: > [Sorted/trimmed/amended the quotes for readability] > > On Monday, October 05, 2015 12:52:08 PM Ian Clarke wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:57 AM, xor wrote: > > Right, but it appears that solutions exist for this with Gradle. > > "Apache Ant" = 1 320 000 Google hits > "Gradle" = 957 000 Google hits > That's a terribly unscientific way to assess the popularity of a tool. As a professional Java developer please take my word for it when I say that Apache Ant is an outdated tool, it has been replaced by Maven, and Maven is in the process of being replaced by Gradle (although we're early in that process). If you don't believe me just ask Google, they selected Gradle as the standard build tool for Android. Or failing that just ask almost any other professional Java developer, they'll tell you the same thing. > > > 2) What can Maven do which Ant cannot do? Do we need those features? > > > > Dependency management > > By that, do you merely mean downloading some JARs from a fixed URI and > putting > them into the current directory; or is it actually even able to install > current versions of stuff on the system's package manager? > > IIRC, our fred Ant builder used to download a fixed freenet-ext.jar to the > current directory on its own, so that's not a Maven seller yet. > No, Gradle does dependency resolution, it would automatically download and assemble all of the components of freenet-ext.jar, while making it trivially easy to update to more recent versions of dependencies. Think of Gradle and Maven as being similar to apt-get on Debian. But if Maven is indeed capable of using the package manager, I would > actually > get VERY hungry for it :) > I prefer installing binaries from the package manager instead of having > Maven > shove truckloads of them into some backyard directory, as only by using the > package manager I get automated security updates. > Maven can assemble everything into a single .jar file. > > By not using a modern dependency management > > system we're creating a significant barrier to entry for new contributors > > to the code. > > I speculate you conclude that from at least one of those assumptions: > The assumption that someone who first wants to compile a project is > incapable > or unwilling to install software (such as Ant) to do so. > No, I conclude that a modern Java developer will want to use build tools that have been more-or-less standard for the last decade, instead of an outdated tool like ant that almost no actively developed Java project uses any more. > @Unwilling: I don't know how it works for other people, but whenever I > compile > a new piece of software, I already am 100% expecting to have to install a > TRUCKLOAD of stuff. Almost every software needs some kind of library. > Ant is just one of them. And there are Ubuntu etc. packages, so people can > get > it easily. > That is because you are apparently unfamiliar with modern Java build tools which have proper dependency management. > > If someone wants to use both Freenet and Tor then they can download them > > individually, but I see no good reason to bundle two independent pieces > of > > software just because they both solve related (but different) problems. > > Well, the question is if the user's care about the difference: > That seems like a very peculiar criteria with which to decide to bundle any two projects. If a user didn't care about the difference between Freenet and Angry Birds, should we bundle it with Angry Birds? The only good criteria for bundling two pieces of software is that the combination is dramatically more useful than either individually (eg. if one depends on the other). That wouldn't be the case here, it would just be two somewhat related pieces of software glued together for no good reason. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Florent Daigniere < nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote: > > > Dependency management, and more importantly, Maven (and more recently > > Gradle) have become pretty-much industry standards, almost no new > > Java > > project uses Ant. If we want to attract new contributors, the fact > > that we > > have an outdated build system will be a turn-off for them. > > You can push further and ask, are there new projects written in java? > And the answer is very likely no; that's not what the cool kids are > doing nowadays. Java is one of the world's most popular programming languages. There are plenty of new projects being written in Java. Every single Android app for starters. And I don't advocate using Gradle because it's what the "cool kids" use, but because it simplifies things for developers, particularly getting things set up initially. > Don't get me wrong, I'm all for modernizing the build system... I just > doubt that it should be the priority of the few people who still > contribute. Perhaps if it weren't for the outdated build system we would have more than a few people still contributing. > We all know Ant well enough to build freenet as is. I'm not concerned about people who are already comfortable with the existing build system, I'm concerned about future contributors. > We've reached the stage where we hardly have the resources to merge > what's contributed (out of the three examples you've picked, we had two > of them on non-merged branches - the website and travis configs)... > That goes to show how resource bound we currently are. Changing the > build system is even more involved... as it entails updating the > release scripts (that should also be gradle-ified). > All the more reason to do what we can to make it easier for new contributors to contribute. Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:57 AM, xor wrote: > > >- Maven/Gradle are now de-facto standard build systems for Java apps, > >and yet we're still using Ant (I was never convinced by the security > >argument against these tools, since we don't audit 3rd-party libraries > >anyway) > > There are 2 aspects here: > > 1) The security issue. > Right, but it appears that solutions exist for this with Gradle. > 2) What can Maven do which Ant cannot do? Do we need those features? > Dependency management, and more importantly, Maven (and more recently Gradle) have become pretty-much industry standards, almost no new Java project uses Ant. If we want to attract new contributors, the fact that we have an outdated build system will be a turn-off for them. This yielded some nice ideas as prerequisites: > I don't see why either of these would be prerequisites. > > "Browser extension to indicate whether user is on Freenet or regular > Internet" > https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=6687 > > "Bundle Tor with Freenet" > https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=6689 > > I'm very happy that after all the years I finally got to think as far out > of > the box as it was necessary to suggest bundling Tor+Freenet: > The previous "How to tell users to decide whether to use Tor OR Freenet?" > thinking was too conservative. It should rather be "How can we make users > benefit from both Tor AND Freenet?". > They're quite complementary to each other after all: > Freenet provides anonymous access to decentralized sites, Tor does not. > Tor provides anonymous access to non-decentralized sites, Freenet does not. > Ship both, and users can access the "whole" Internet. > I really don't like this idea. I mean, couldn't the same reasoning be used to justify bundling almost anything with Freenet? Bitcoin? I2P? Where would you stop? And now we'd basically have to maintain a custom Tor installer, in addition to our existing installer. Pain all around, and for what? It's all downside. If someone wants to use both Freenet and Tor then they can download them individually, but I see no good reason to bundle two independent pieces of software just because they both solve related (but different) problems. Anyway, I hope we can agree on this: > - We can keep Ant unless we discover a feature in Maven which we must have; > and if we switch, we first must find a way to fix the security issues. > Here is the feature. A developer wants to work on Freenet, so they type: $ git clone g...@github.com:freenet/fred.git $ cd fred $ mvn assembly:assembly And now they've built a copy of Freenet. Is that the current experience for a new developer? I doubt it is, yet it is the experience for most contemporary Java projects. By not using a modern dependency management system we're creating a significant barrier to entry for new contributors to the code. Ian. -- Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Behind the times
What's the username/pwd for https://testing.freenetproject.org/ ? On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 10:40 PM, Steve Dougherty wrote: > On 09/29/2015 07:26 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > > Am Dienstag, 29. September 2015, 14:50:27 schrieb Ian Clarke: > >>- Website badly needs an update, it looks very dated and frankly a > bit > >>spammy. Bootstrap <http://getbootstrap.com/> > >> anyone, or even the Github page generator > >><https://github.com/blog/1081-instantly-beautiful-project-pages> > >> would be a big improvement > > > > Gerard created a new site a few months ago and we’ve been working on > > finalizing it since then. Yesterday he uploaded a new test-version: > > I spent the weekend on this and I think it's almost ready. When I get > more time to devote to it I'll upload it to Transifex and put out a call > for translators. I'd like to avoid deploying it with fewer words > translated than the current site, but I'll put a 2-week maximum on how > long to wait. > > The current development state of the site remains here: > > https://testing.freenetproject.org/ > > and my fork is > > https://github.com/Thynix/freenet-website > > > ___ > Devl mailing list > Devl@freenetproject.org > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl > ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl