Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Patrick Sheehan

Agree with you, John!  "Every part is independent"!

- Original Message - 
From: "John Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music



At 2:40 PM -0400 8/25/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:

On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:29 PM, John Howell wrote:

It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the 
Eb soprano.  Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower 
clarinets.


When I was in bands (admittedly a long time ago now) it was 
definitely *not* prestigious to play the alto clarinet,


Sorry, out of context.  The second sentence was intended to refer to 
an earlier sentence.  But you're quite right about the alto. 
Directors assign less competent players to the instrument, and then 
complain that nobody plays alto well.  Self-fulfilling prophesy!


In my own case, for reasons known only to the gods of statistics, we 
always have one, often two, and occasionally three alto clarinets in 
our Community Band, and the ladies who play them are quite competent, 
so I do write real parts for them and don't just double 3rd clarinet 
or alto sax.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Patrick Sheehan
I agree with you, David.  When I orchestrate or arrange, and want a specific 
sound from an instrument family, I'll have no qualms about using an alto 
clarinet (non-doubled) or a couple flugelhorns, or whatever.  I mandate that 
the ensemble find the instrument or don't play the piece; I'm that adamant 
about it.  Glad some people out there feel the same way.


- Original Message - 
From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music



David W. Fenton wrote:
[snip]>
Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically what 
all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and professional 
bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the music they are 
playing?




I think you would find that the upper level university bands and 
professional bands will perform as close to the original instrumentation 
as possible, even to the use of Db piccolos.


But the lower level university bands (at those colleges and universities 
which have more than one band) and all community bands are a lot like high 
school bands -- if you're a member you expect to play some in every piece.



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Aaron Rabushka
Sounds logical to me, but I wanted to double-check. Thanks!

Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
- Original Message - 
From: "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music


> Hey Aaron,
> 
> It will definitely be easier on the player to write for Bb trumpet  
> doubling fluegelhorn, so that the entire part is in Bb.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
> 
> 
> 
> On 26 Aug 2007, at 1:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three  
> > players
> > to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any  
> > of the
> > trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters  
> > would have
> > preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in  
> > these
> > circumstances?
> >
> >
> >
> > Aaron J. Rabushka
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread John Howell

At 3:17 PM -0400 8/26/07, John Howell wrote:

Guy Hayden wrote:

I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there
is no difference between the two instruments.


I suspect that you would also find that those players use 
mouthpieces with the same cup, throat, and rim as their trumpet 
mouthpieces, the only difference being the smaller shank.  And the 
single most important difference in tone quality and flexibility is 
the difference between a true cornet mouthpiece and a true trumpet 
mouthpiece.


Trumpet mouthpieces have also tended to adopt smaller inside 
dimensions over the years.  I understand that Vincent Bach's own 
mouthpieces was the equivalent of the Bach 1C.  I played a 3C for 
many years, which was quite large enough for me, while my companions 
usually went for the 10 1/2 C.


Oops!  I just realized that I misread your sentence, but I think my 
comment is still valid


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread John Howell

Guy Hayden wrote:

I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there
is no difference between the two instruments.


I suspect that you would also find that those players use mouthpieces 
with the same cup, throat, and rim as their trumpet mouthpieces, the 
only difference being the smaller shank.  And the single most 
important difference in tone quality and flexibility is the 
difference between a true cornet mouthpiece and a true trumpet 
mouthpiece.


Trumpet mouthpieces have also tended to adopt smaller inside 
dimensions over the years.  I understand that Vincent Bach's own 
mouthpieces was the equivalent of the Bach 1C.  I played a 3C for 
many years, which was quite large enough for me, while my companions 
usually went for the 10 1/2 C.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Christopher Smith


On 26-Aug-07, at 1:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three  
players
to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any  
of the
trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters  
would have
preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in  
these

circumstances?


The players I write for prefer modern parts notated in Bb (though of  
course they can read anything!) Most of the repertoire is written for  
Bb, and the ones that prefer to play C as their main instrument (most  
of them) are so used to reading Bb parts that anything else risks  
confusion, especially switching back and forth to Bb flugel.


There IS kind of a Bb splat that I miss sometimes when I hear certain  
music played on C trumpet, but that is so nit-picky that I shouldn't  
really say anything, and leave it up to the players.


Christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Darcy James Argue

Hey Aaron,

It will definitely be easier on the player to write for Bb trumpet  
doubling fluegelhorn, so that the entire part is in Bb.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 26 Aug 2007, at 1:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three  
players
to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any  
of the
trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters  
would have
preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in  
these

circumstances?



Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread arabushk
And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three players
to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any of the
trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters would have
preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in these
circumstances?



Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Carl Dershem

Guy Hayden wrote:

I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there
is no difference between the two instruments.  OTH, cornetists will insist
that a marked difference exists.  As both a band and orchestra conductor I
do recognize a difference in the sound.  Mind you, I grew up (mid-50s)
playing in bands with large contingents of both instruments.

The comment about Tschaikovsky's use reminds me that "Capriccio Italien"
calls for both cornets and trumpets.  For a guest conducting gig a while
back I asked for both instruments in Berlioz' orchestration of von Weber's
"Invitation to the Dance".  None of the regular trumpeters owned cornets so
auxiliary players were engaged for the parts, causing bit of grumping by the
trumpeters!

I have heard that Clarke commented that he could not understand why anyone
would want to play cornet parts on the trumpet.  Maybe he knew something
about the different sound from the two? 

Guy Hayden 


As a trumpet player, I find the difference between the trumpet and 
cornet to be very pronounced, though some players do what they can to 
minimize the differences.  A lot can be done with mouthpiece selection 
to make the difference more or less pronounced, but ideally a cornet 
should have a warm, round sound, while a trumpet should have a bright, 
clear sound.  Also, as has been said before, trumpets project much 
better than cornets.


When I get a call for a gig that calls for cornet, I bring one, and when 
I play jazz in small intimate settings I prefer to play cornet, but the 
vast majority of calls are for trumpet.


And flugelhorn is a whole other can of worms.

cd
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/#
http://members.cox.net/dershem

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


RE: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Guy Hayden
I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there
is no difference between the two instruments.  OTH, cornetists will insist
that a marked difference exists.  As both a band and orchestra conductor I
do recognize a difference in the sound.  Mind you, I grew up (mid-50s)
playing in bands with large contingents of both instruments.

The comment about Tschaikovsky's use reminds me that "Capriccio Italien"
calls for both cornets and trumpets.  For a guest conducting gig a while
back I asked for both instruments in Berlioz' orchestration of von Weber's
"Invitation to the Dance".  None of the regular trumpeters owned cornets so
auxiliary players were engaged for the parts, causing bit of grumping by the
trumpeters!

I have heard that Clarke commented that he could not understand why anyone
would want to play cornet parts on the trumpet.  Maybe he knew something
about the different sound from the two? 

Guy Hayden 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Raymond Horton
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 10:28 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

dhbailey wrote:
> Ken Moore wrote:
>> John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
>>> instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
>>> band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
>>> mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and
>>> not because instruments are not available.
>>
>> It's not just the wind band that needs it.  Lots of French music of 
>> the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in 
>> "Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and 
>> differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky 
>> ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also.  I would expect 
>> historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms 
>> symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments 
>> about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument.
>>
>
>
> I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more 
> than just specialty conductors would request the accurate 
> instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments.
>
> Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I 
> would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets.
>

With pro orchestras cornet use varies a lot according to preferences of 
players and conductors.  It is common to see all the parts played on 
trumpets. 


Raymond Horton
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Raymond Horton

dhbailey wrote:

Ken Moore wrote:

John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:

The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and

not because instruments are not available.


It's not just the wind band that needs it.  Lots of French music of 
the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in 
"Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and 
differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky 
ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also.  I would expect 
historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms 
symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments 
about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument.





I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more 
than just specialty conductors would request the accurate 
instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments.


Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I 
would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets.


One more thing - in Berlioz, and a few lessers of the time, the 
difference was more than sound.  The trumpets were natural, the cornets 
valved.That distinction was gone by Tchaikovsky. 



RBH
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Raymond Horton

dhbailey wrote:

Ken Moore wrote:

John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:

The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and

not because instruments are not available.


It's not just the wind band that needs it.  Lots of French music of 
the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in 
"Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and 
differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky 
ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also.  I would expect 
historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms 
symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments 
about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument.





I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more 
than just specialty conductors would request the accurate 
instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments.


Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I 
would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets.




With pro orchestras cornet use varies a lot according to preferences of 
players and conductors.  It is common to see all the parts played on 
trumpets. 



Raymond Horton
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread dhbailey

Ken Moore wrote:

John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:

The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and

not because instruments are not available.


It's not just the wind band that needs it.  Lots of French music of the 
19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in "Sorcerer's 
Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and differentiates them 
markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky ballets and Prokofiev's 
"Lieutenat Kijé" also.  I would expect historically informed conductors 
like Norrington (who did the Brahms symphonies with a near approximation 
to the original instruments about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on 
having the right instrument.





I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more than 
just specialty conductors would request the accurate instrumentation, 
just as they do for all the other instruments.


Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I 
would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread dhbailey
Sure -- I'm always open to new possibilities and even if it won't be 
right for my community band, I speak with others for whom it might be a 
perfect fit.


Thanks!
David


Aaron Rabushka wrote:

I don't know yet--it's only been out a few weeks. The "wind ensemble"
marking was MMB's idea rather than mine. Would you like me ot send you a
promo-blurb, David?

Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
- Original Message - 
From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays
what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on
any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's
interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently

published

Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially

transposed

oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available).



Interesting -- how many copies have been sold?

As the director of a community band I don't even bother looking at
scores marked "Wind Ensemble" because of the more finicky
instrumentation requirements.  Which really doesn't matter much except
to me and my band, but I am curious about the sales figures (not
specifics, of course, but have you sold "a few" "some" "a lot" "enough
to retire on") since all the other community band directors I know feel
the same way.

-
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-26 Thread Ken Moore

John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:

The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and

not because instruments are not available.


It's not just the wind band that needs it.  Lots of French music of the 
19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in "Sorcerer's 
Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and differentiates them 
markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky ballets and Prokofiev's 
"Lieutenat Kijé" also.  I would expect historically informed conductors 
like Norrington (who did the Brahms symphonies with a near approximation 
to the original instruments about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on 
having the right instrument.


--
Ken Moore

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread John Howell

At 2:40 PM -0400 8/25/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:

On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:29 PM, John Howell wrote:

It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the 
Eb soprano.  Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower 
clarinets.


When I was in bands (admittedly a long time ago now) it was 
definitely *not* prestigious to play the alto clarinet,


Sorry, out of context.  The second sentence was intended to refer to 
an earlier sentence.  But you're quite right about the alto. 
Directors assign less competent players to the instrument, and then 
complain that nobody plays alto well.  Self-fulfilling prophesy!


In my own case, for reasons known only to the gods of statistics, we 
always have one, often two, and occasionally three alto clarinets in 
our Community Band, and the ladies who play them are quite competent, 
so I do write real parts for them and don't just double 3rd clarinet 
or alto sax.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread John Howell

At 8:25 AM -0400 8/25/07, dhbailey wrote:


It's a very tricky situation, and one that composers have always had 
to navigate carefully.  John Cacavas sold an awful lot of band 
music.  His arrangements have something for everyone and 
doublings/cues for those situations when the originally desired 
instrument for a passage isn't available.


I think David makes a very important point here.  When I write for 
band, it's usually for our Community Band (although the music is 
playable by any band or wind ensemble, of course).  And I do make a 
very conscious effort, within my musical conception, to keep in mind 
every section and even individual players, and try to give them 
something satisfying and perhaps challenging to play.  Maybe it's 
because I'm both a performer and a teacher, rather than a hard-core 
composer, but I LIKE the players to enjoy my music.  I have a feeling 
that too many wannabe orchestral composer don't think like that at 
all, and then don't understand why there music doesn't get played. 
You have to compose for yourself, of course, but also for your 
players and for your audiences.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread John Howell

At 7:51 AM -0400 8/25/07, dhbailey wrote:


Sousa's band didn't march more than a couple of times.  At least his 
civilian band.  The Marine Band marched, and the band he led in WWI 
at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center marched, but his civilian 
band mostly just played concerts.


Hey, they marched through town playing "Dixie" to attract an 
audience!  I saw the movie!!!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Andrew Stiller


On Aug 25, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:


Hmm, sort of a compromise between Flug and Tpt.



That's the problem  right there: there isn't enough space between those 
two  insts. to put in a third.


Actually, those proclaiming the death of the  cornet are off by a 
couple of decades. At the time I wrote my book (pub. 1983), the cornet 
had become virtually indistinguishable  from the trp., but that has 
since reversed, because of the original-instruments movement. Nowadays 
cornets are often built in the old pattern and played with proper 
mouthpieces--which means they have moved well away from the trp., but 
are now in danger of sounding indistinguishable from the flghn.


My _Procrustean Concerto for the Bb Clarinet_ calls for 2 flghn--an 
instrument I greatly love. When the piece was recorded in Poland, the 
Warsaw Orchestra couldn't get flugels, so I told them to use cornets, 
and  the result  was just right. Except that I had written (as I always 
do) for 4-valve flghns,  and the cornets couldn't play the extra low 
notes. The trombones took 'em and made a reasonable  stab at imitating 
the proper  tone quality.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread David W. Fenton
On 25 Aug 2007 at 14:34, Christopher Smith wrote:

> On Aug 25, 2007, at 2:14 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> 
> > There are also national variations, as I found to my surprise when 
> > presented with a piece scored for the standard Maltese band of 
> > today, which is so different from the American one that I felt 
> > compelled to add this note to the instrumentation page:
> >
> > This piece is scored for a standard Maltese band. With the  
> > composerÕs approval, additional parts for the full complement of an 
> > American concert band are included among the performance materials.
> >
> > Conductors wishing to play this piece with the forces for which it 
> > was conceived should use approximately the following numbers of 
> > players: 1+1 flutes, 2 E² clarinets, 12+10 B² clarinets, 2 alto 
> > sax, 2 tenor sax, 6+5 trumpets, 1+1+1 horns, 1+1+1 trombones, 6 
> > baritones, 6 euphoniums, 6 tubas, 1+1+1 percussion.
> 
> Whee! Six and five trumpets, 6 baritones, 6 euphs, 6 tubas, and only 
> two flutes one on a part and three horns one on a part! You know, 
> sometimes I say to myself, I sure would like to hear more bottom end, 
> well I might just like it in Malta!

Yes, but that's somewhat balanced out by 22 Bb clarinets.

The band is, pretty much, by definition, a low and middle range 
ensemble in comparison to the orchestra, with few instruments that 
can go as high as violins do regularly in orchestral music.

The surprise for me in that instrumentation is the trombones, 
actually.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Aaron Rabushka
And some of the Czech folk bands I saw in Moravia were also interesting--I
don't know all of the ins and outs, but tenor tubas of some sort were always
there (no problems finding one for my recordings) along wih clarinets,
trumpets, tuba, slide trombones, and an occasional valve 'bone. When singers
were there they were miked.

Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Andrew Stiller


On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:29 PM, John Howell wrote:

It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the Eb 
soprano.  Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower clarinets.


When I was in bands (admittedly a long time ago now) it was definitely 
*not* prestigious to play the alto clarinet,  Playing it was considered 
evidence that you were not  good  enough to play even 2d clarinet. 
Maybe 3d. Most band music, at least of that day, accordingly buries the 
alto clarinet line where  it can't be heard, and never assigns it 
anything exposed.


 I suspect that the orchestral players who play Eb soprano on such 
things as "Symphonie Fantastique" might take offense.


Chavez, Symphony #2 "Sinfonia India" has an absolutely gorgeous, and 
quite lengthy, solo for the instrument. Check it out.


Your average professional orchestra includes a "utility clarinet" 
player who is expected to play (and own!) Bb/ACl, Bscl, Ebcl, Asax, 
Tsax, or Btsax whenever called upon to do so.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Christopher Smith


On Aug 25, 2007, at 2:14 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:



There are also national variations, as I found to my surprise when  
presented with a piece scored for the standard Maltese band of  
today, which is so different from the American one that I felt  
compelled to add this note to the instrumentation page:


This piece is scored for a standard Maltese band. With the  
composer’s approval, additional parts for the full complement of an  
American concert band are included among the performance materials.


Conductors wishing to play this piece with the forces for which it  
was conceived should use approximately the following numbers of  
players: 1+1 flutes, 2 E≤ clarinets, 12+10 B≤ clarinets, 2 alto  
sax, 2 tenor sax, 6+5 trumpets, 1+1+1 horns, 1+1+1 trombones, 6  
baritones, 6 euphoniums, 6 tubas, 1+1+1 percussion.


Whee! Six and five trumpets, 6 baritones, 6 euphs, 6 tubas, and only  
two flutes one on a part and three horns one on a part! You know,  
sometimes I say to myself, I sure would like to hear more bottom end,  
well I might just like it in Malta!


Christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Andrew Stiller


On Aug 24, 2007, at 9:29 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


Now, in college-level bands, surely the tenor sax majors and many of
the altos also double on soprano, so I don't see how that would be
incredibly difficult to come by one player for it


Any saxophonist worthy of the name can  play every size of the 
instrument at a moment's notice. There is no such thing as an "alto 
saxophonist." To an only slightly lesser extent, the same is true of 
clarinetists, flutists, oboists; and  all college/pro bassoonists are 
taught to master  the cbn at some point.


It's true that the first chair WW in most major orchestras refuse to 
play anything but their main ax, but that's just a tolerated 
unprofessionalism. Which IMO should not be tolerated any longer.


When the Haydn Symphony 22 is played, the first oboe actually sits it 
out because both parts are for English horns! Totally daft.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Andrew Stiller


On Aug 24, 2007, at 7:26 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:

  When playing works of the early and mid-nineteenth century, 
historical modern performances can and should try to reproduce the 
instrumentation of the time, and some colleges and whatever pro 
performances occur, will do that, time to time.


But the tradition of band music, (the changing personnel on these 
recordings even gives us a hint), is pretty much 'whoever shows up 
gets to play',


There are also national variations, as I found to my surprise when 
presented with a piece scored for the standard Maltese band of today, 
which is so different from the American one that I felt compelled to 
add this note to the instrumentation page:


This piece is scored for a standard Maltese band. With the composer’s 
approval, additional parts for the full complement of an American 
concert band are included among the performance materials.


Conductors wishing to play this piece with the forces for which it was 
conceived should use approximately the following numbers of players: 
1+1 flutes, 2 E≤ clarinets, 12+10 B≤ clarinets, 2 alto sax, 2 tenor 
sax, 6+5 trumpets, 1+1+1 horns, 1+1+1 trombones, 6 baritones, 6 
euphoniums, 6 tubas, 1+1+1 percussion.


In Malta, the baritone horn is known as “alto horn in B≤.” To avoid 
confusion, we have adopted the more familiar terminology for this 
publication.


The extra parts I added were for piccolo, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, alto and 
bass clarinets, baritone saxophone, and 4 horns  in F. The low WW and 
4th horn would hopefully make up for the lack of massed baritones and 
euphoniums in an American band. The picc. reinforces the EbCl; I forget 
what I did w. the oboes. The extra instruments appear as parts only; 
they are not cued in  the score.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread John Howell

At 10:56 PM -0400 8/24/07, David W. Fenton wrote:

On 24 Aug 2007 at 22:29, John Howell wrote:


 Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying, and of course it's
 possible to delete instruments from a given ensemble, but you'd have
 to have a conductor who believes in doing so, and players who accept
 that it is a good idea to have a few minutes off.


Yes, but it's mostly not done, right?


Correct.  It's mostly not done.  One way I can describe the 
difference between the orchestra and band worlds is this:  the 
orchestra exists to serve the music; the music exists to serve the 
band.





 Aaron's suggestion that it might be time for a HIP approach to
 earlier band music might be just the ticket, for those interested in
 that kind of thing, but that will always be a small minority.


Seems like a given to me. It could make programming easier, too,
though scheduling of rehearsals would be harder. That is, make up a
performance from different groups of players in different ensembles --
 with less music for some of the players, perhaps the groups overall
could play harder music prepared in a shorter time. That's the
approach we take in the NYU Collegium, where hardly anyone performs
in everything (well, I almost always do, but that's because I'm a
continuo and viol player both).


And that's exactly the approach I take with our Early Music Ensemble, 
as well, and you're right, it makes scheduling rehearsals a zoo!  The 
difference might be that I encourage people to do more than one 
thing, if they're interested and capable.  So that in the course of a 
single concert I might have one student singing soprano on one piece, 
playing violin on another, recorder in one set, and treble viol in 
another.  On the other hand I also welcome students who do just one 
thing, and pick music to fit their capabilities.


Probably never happen, but I think it would be great fun to play with 
you, David.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Dean M. Estabrook

Hmm, sort of a compromise between Flug and Tpt.

Dean

On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

Cornets are actually enjoying a bit of a renaissance on the NYC  
jazz scene. Dave Douglas, one of the most influential and  
critically acclaimed trumpet players of the past ten years, has  
switched from trumpet to cornet as his primary instrument. He was  
following in the footsteps of a lot of lesser-known but well- 
regarded local players -- guys like Taylor Ho Bynum, who made the  
switch several years ago. Of course, jazz has always had a few  
cornet holdouts (like Thad Jones), but I've seen a big increase in  
the number of dedicated jazz cornet players in NYC just over the  
past 4 years.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Aug 2007, at 9:03 PM, John Howell wrote:


The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all- 
purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work,  
and marching band work.  The cornet, especially one played with  
the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of  
choice, and not because instruments are not available.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home


Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Dean M. Estabrook
A tricky situation indeed. While on the topic, what Band publishers  
are presently accepting submissions?


Dean

On Aug 25, 2007, at 5:25 AM, dhbailey wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Very often in school bands there's an unspoken requirement that  
everyone
be playing most of the time to keep them occupied. When I wrote my  
first

wind ensemble piece my intent was NOT to write yet another John
Cacavas-type excursion into razzle-dazzle, I was roundly  
criticized for

not having everyone playing all the time. Can't please everyone.


Indeed -- that's always been the composer's nightmare.  How to find  
some path between the extremes on the one hand of writing exactly  
what you want to hear and expecting to hear exactly what you wrote  
and on the other hand of writing music which larger numbers of  
people will purchase and perform.


It's a very tricky situation, and one that composers have always  
had to navigate carefully.  John Cacavas sold an awful lot of band  
music.  His arrangements have something for everyone and doublings/ 
cues for those situations when the originally desired instrument  
for a passage isn't available.  I would be that every high school  
and most community and university band libraries have several John  
Cacavas works.  He knew how to write what people wanted to play.   
Same for James Swearingen in more modern days.



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home


Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread Aaron Rabushka
I don't know yet--it's only been out a few weeks. The "wind ensemble"
marking was MMB's idea rather than mine. Would you like me ot send you a
promo-blurb, David?

Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
- Original Message - 
From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays
> > what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on
> > any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's
> > interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently
published
> > Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially
transposed
> > oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available).
> >
>
>
> Interesting -- how many copies have been sold?
>
> As the director of a community band I don't even bother looking at
> scores marked "Wind Ensemble" because of the more finicky
> instrumentation requirements.  Which really doesn't matter much except
> to me and my band, but I am curious about the sales figures (not
> specifics, of course, but have you sold "a few" "some" "a lot" "enough
> to retire on") since all the other community band directors I know feel
> the same way.
>
> -
> David H. Bailey
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread dhbailey

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Very often in school bands there's an unspoken requirement that everyone
be playing most of the time to keep them occupied. When I wrote my first
wind ensemble piece my intent was NOT to write yet another John
Cacavas-type excursion into razzle-dazzle, I was roundly criticized for
not having everyone playing all the time. Can't please everyone.



Indeed -- that's always been the composer's nightmare.  How to find some 
path between the extremes on the one hand of writing exactly what you 
want to hear and expecting to hear exactly what you wrote and on the 
other hand of writing music which larger numbers of people will purchase 
and perform.


It's a very tricky situation, and one that composers have always had to 
navigate carefully.  John Cacavas sold an awful lot of band music.  His 
arrangements have something for everyone and doublings/cues for those 
situations when the originally desired instrument for a passage isn't 
available.  I would be that every high school and most community and 
university band libraries have several John Cacavas works.  He knew how 
to write what people wanted to play.  Same for James Swearingen in more 
modern days.



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread dhbailey

David W. Fenton wrote:
[snip]>
Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically 
what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and 
professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the 
music they are playing?




I think you would find that the upper level university bands and 
professional bands will perform as close to the original instrumentation 
as possible, even to the use of Db piccolos.


But the lower level university bands (at those colleges and universities 
which have more than one band) and all community bands are a lot like 
high school bands -- if you're a member you expect to play some in every 
piece.



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread dhbailey

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote:

There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation 
and that of contemporary bands,


[snip]

The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and 
a harpist as soloists,


Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my 
tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse! I 
was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate marching 
with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at least twice 
as heavy.




Sousa's band didn't march more than a couple of times.  At least his 
civilian band.  The Marine Band marched, and the band he led in WWI at 
the Great Lakes Naval Training Center marched, but his civilian band 
mostly just played concerts.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread dhbailey

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays
what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on
any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's
interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published
Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed
oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available).




Interesting -- how many copies have been sold?

As the director of a community band I don't even bother looking at 
scores marked "Wind Ensemble" because of the more finicky 
instrumentation requirements.  Which really doesn't matter much except 
to me and my band, but I am curious about the sales figures (not 
specifics, of course, but have you sold "a few" "some" "a lot" "enough 
to retire on") since all the other community band directors I know feel 
the same way.


-
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-25 Thread dhbailey

Daniel Wolf wrote:
I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands.  Is 
there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet 
some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation?  Might 
there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain 
instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional 
doublings or playing cue note?  If someone has articulated a case for a 
particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be 
interested in reading it.


At least in the U.S. the vast majority of bands are educational in 
purpose -- band directors don't want (and for behavior and discipline 
they CAN'T have) students sitting idle for large amounts of rehearsal time.


The next largest number of bands are college/university bands -- many 
(most?) colleges have more than one band, some with as many as 3 or 4 
(or more) where the "lowest" level band is really an extension of high 
school band and is open without audition to any student (or faculty 
member in many cases) to come participate in.  As such, they don't want 
people who are there as a hobby to feel their time is being wasted by 
being told that they can't play for several works on the next concert. 
The upper level bands would be far more likely to program works which 
add extra instruments and/or omit some instruments, since the members 
are there by invitation (after passing an audition) to begin with.


Then there are the community bands, where people come once a week (in 
most cases) to relax by making music in a band environment.  Tell them 
they can't play for part of a concert and they'll go find another band 
where they're more needed.


Doublings (or cues) are desirable so that band works are performable by 
more ensembles which might not have the original instruments those 
passages are scored for -- this allows many bands to perform works which 
otherwise they would have to pass on, selling more copies for the 
composer and making the performances more diverse.


It's an entirely different world from orchestras, where everybody except 
the strings knows there will be works they aren't needed for, and they 
accept that gladly in exchange for the privilege of performing 
orchestral music.


Two very different worlds, bands and orchestras, with two very different 
views of who should play and when.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Darcy James Argue
Cornets are actually enjoying a bit of a renaissance on the NYC jazz  
scene. Dave Douglas, one of the most influential and critically  
acclaimed trumpet players of the past ten years, has switched from  
trumpet to cornet as his primary instrument. He was following in the  
footsteps of a lot of lesser-known but well-regarded local players --  
guys like Taylor Ho Bynum, who made the switch several years ago. Of  
course, jazz has always had a few cornet holdouts (like Thad Jones),  
but I've seen a big increase in the number of dedicated jazz cornet  
players in NYC just over the past 4 years.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 24 Aug 2007, at 9:03 PM, John Howell wrote:


The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose  
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and  
marching band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the  
proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of  
choice, and not because instruments are not available.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Raymond Horton
Oh, the instrument (Eb Cornet) is available, for certain, and still 
standard for brass bands, as are a whole set of Bb Cornets.  It is not a 
standard instrument in concert bands anymore.  College wind ensembles 
could use it for historical performances if they wish, or sub an Eb 
trumpet, (which several of the college students will probably own) if 
the members of rest of the section are playing trumpets.  



I think we are making too much of the difference between cornets and 
trumpets, frankly.  Do some blind tests, and I think you will often hear 
more difference between players than between instruments.   Cornets are 
mellower, sweeter, and project less, but I've heard guys who can make 
the difference vanish, in both good and bad ways. 



For a look at the world in which cornets are alive and well, see the 
NABBA (North American Brass Band Association) website:

http://www.nabba.org/


NABBA's championship is held, for the next several years, a few miles 
from my house at Indiana University Southeast in New Albany.  Thousands 
of brass band members from all over the US, and from other continents as 
well, flock to the campus for two days every spring.  The quality in the 
upper levels is extremely high. 



I sub on solo euphonium with one of the two local brass bands in the 
area now and then.  The traditional music is nearly all British, and is 
great fun.   Not the problems of varying instrumentation of mixed bands, 
as was mentioned earlier - the instrumentation is standard.  (There is 
also a smaller nine-piece standard group, also but I have no experience 
with it.)



Raymond Horton


  


John Howell wrote:

At 11:15 PM -0400 8/23/07, Raymond Horton wrote:


Missing the Eb soprano cornet is a problem for modern band with these 
older works, but with more woodwinds in the modern band this can 
often suffice.   I've been working a lot with British-style brass 
bands, lately, and the Eb soprano cornets are certainly the woodwinds 
of those groups.


Actually I just got the Fall-Winter catalog for The WoodWind & 
Brasswind, and took a moment to look through the 
trumpet-cornet-flugelhorn pages.  Yes, they list many more pages of 
trumpets, both Bb and specialty keys, but there are several pages of 
cornets and several choices of Eb soprano cornets, including Schilke, 
which ain't chopped liver!


The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not 
because instruments are not available.


John




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread David W. Fenton
On 24 Aug 2007 at 22:29, John Howell wrote:

> Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying, and of course it's
> possible to delete instruments from a given ensemble, but you'd have
> to have a conductor who believes in doing so, and players who accept
> that it is a good idea to have a few minutes off.

Yes, but it's mostly not done, right?

> Aaron's suggestion that it might be time for a HIP approach to 
> earlier band music might be just the ticket, for those interested in
> that kind of thing, but that will always be a small minority.

Seems like a given to me. It could make programming easier, too, 
though scheduling of rehearsals would be harder. That is, make up a 
performance from different groups of players in different ensembles --
 with less music for some of the players, perhaps the groups overall 
could play harder music prepared in a shorter time. That's the 
approach we take in the NYU Collegium, where hardly anyone performs 
in everything (well, I almost always do, but that's because I'm a 
continuo and viol player both).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread John Howell

At 9:29 PM -0400 8/24/07, David W. Fenton wrote:


Now, in college-level bands, surely the tenor sax majors and many of
the altos also double on soprano, so I don't see how that would be
incredibly difficult to come by one player for it (just as it's not
hard to put a Bb Clarinet player on Eb -- nobody can make Eb Clarinet
sound good :).


What, we've run out of viola jokes?!!  But that's not necessarily 
true.  The facts that all clarinets are fingered the same and that 
their music is transposed to be read the same does not mean that the 
instruments of the extended clarinet family are all the same.  It 
stands to reason that they are not, and therefore that a potential 
player has to spend time learning this "new" instrument.  Which is 
exactly what happens in our wind ensemble, because our clarinet 
professor insists on it.  It's considered prestigious to be the 
person selected to play the Eb soprano.  Same thing is true for the 
alto, bass, and lower clarinets.  Takes practice.  And I suspect that 
the orchestral players who play Eb soprano on such things as 
"Symphonie Fantastique" might take offense.  Of course ANY clarinet 
in any key has to be well made and well tuned, and schools do not 
tend to buy the most expensive professional instruments.



So it's not a matter of adding instruments to the basic ensemble but
of omitting instruments that are not used in the particular piece,
and substituting the closest reasonable instruments when the
originals are obsolete.


Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying, and of course it's 
possible to delete instruments from a given ensemble, but you'd have 
to have a conductor who believes in doing so, and players who accept 
that it is a good idea to have a few minutes off.


Aaron's suggestion that it might be time for a HIP approach to 
earlier band music might be just the ticket, for those interested in 
that kind of thing, but that will always be a small minority.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread David W. Fenton
On 24 Aug 2007 at 20:43, John Howell wrote:

> As to adapting instrumentation to the music, I tried to point out that
> most bands do not and cannot, with the possible exceptions of the wind
> ensembles at large music schools or bands that consider themselves
> truly professional.  And of course among that handful of professional
> bands we have to include the premier bands in each of the military
> services, and they cannot blithely add instruments to order because
> the players must be in the military and must be assigned to specific
> bands and have their own line in the Table of Organization.

But that isn't the issue -- it's not adding odd instruments at all. 
There's nothing odd about the instrumentation of the Fulton pieces, 
except that we now use different transpositions and very closely 
related instruments (with the exception of cornets, which I would 
consider a hugely different instrument because of the completely 
different bore, which has huge consequences for both tone, 
articulation and agility). It's not a matter of needing to add a BBb 
contrabass clarinet or a bass sax, but a matter of using a C picc 
instead of Db, F horns instead of Db and so forth.

Now, in college-level bands, surely the tenor sax majors and many of 
the altos also double on soprano, so I don't see how that would be 
incredibly difficult to come by one player for it (just as it's not 
hard to put a Bb Clarinet player on Eb -- nobody can make Eb Clarinet 
sound good :).

So it's not a matter of adding instruments to the basic ensemble but 
of omitting instruments that are not used in the particular piece, 
and substituting the closest reasonable instruments when the 
originals are obsolete.

That's what I don't see as happening, whereas these groups surely 
have the resources to do so.

> And by the way, I agree with you that the best college wind ensembles
> should be included at the professional level, but only because there
> are so few truly professional wind ensemble, especially touring
> ensembles in existence today.  Again, there's a world of difference
> between the band world and the orchestra world.

I see wind ensemble as a different world, chamber music-oriented (one 
on a part, like an orchestral wind section), instead of massed 
instruments, so that's completely different -- they are always ad hoc 
in instrumentation, more or less. 

But I'm asking about something else entirely. Maybe I'm not 
explaining it well?

Of course, I certainly believe that all new editions of these old 
works should include both the original parts and all the alternates 
that make it playable by standard modern bands. In the case of the 
Fulton, I just don't see any severe adaptation necessary (other than 
the cornet/trumpet thing, which is endemic in almost all historical 
band music, even that which remains in the repertory, like Sousa), 
and surely there's a host of pieces for which that is the case.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread David W. Fenton
On 24 Aug 2007 at 19:26, Raymond Horton wrote:

> I'll go out on a limb and say that _generally_ Fulton, Sousa, and
> modern university and pro bands play/played pieces like marches with
> whomever they have/had present at the time.  The instrumentation
> varied for Sousa, certainly, over the years, and I imagine he did
> much re-scoring of even his more serious works and transcriptions to
> suit his changing band, rather than send players off-stage or see
> them sit idle.
> 
> This is the blessing and curse of the bands, as we have been
> discussing.

I'm very, very well aware of it, having spent 15 years as assistant 
music director of the Illinois Premier Boys State Band. As you can 
well imagine, when you have all boys, you lack certain instruments. 
We were lucky to have 3 clarinets, or even one flute, but we had 
thousands of trumpets and trombones and drummers. Sometimes we had 1 
clarinet, 6 alto saxes, 3 tenor saxes, 2 horns, 25 trumpets, 8 
trombones, 2 baritones, 1 euphonium, 1 tube, 12 drummers. Try to make 
*that* sound good.  

I learned a lot about orchestrating for such ensembles (I was the de 
facto staff arranger -- learned to turn them out from scratch in 
about 4 hours of work, including copying parts, then rewriting and 
recopying parts after the first rehearsal to fix what I got wrong; it 
was a *great* learning experience).  

But that was a different kind of situation than pro-level groups 
(which for me includes the top-level university bands). I wish more 
of those organizations would take a historical approach to older 
music -- 

it would certainly provide much more variety of texture and sound on 
concerts. And I think it would be good for talented school bands to 
do the same thing.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread John Howell

At 11:15 PM -0400 8/23/07, Raymond Horton wrote:


Missing the Eb soprano cornet is a problem for modern band with 
these older works, but with more woodwinds in the modern band this 
can often suffice.   I've been working a lot with British-style 
brass bands, lately, and the Eb soprano cornets are certainly the 
woodwinds of those groups.


Actually I just got the Fall-Winter catalog for The WoodWind & 
Brasswind, and took a moment to look through the 
trumpet-cornet-flugelhorn pages.  Yes, they list many more pages of 
trumpets, both Bb and specialty keys, but there are several pages of 
cornets and several choices of Eb soprano cornets, including Schilke, 
which ain't chopped liver!


The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose 
instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching 
band work.  The cornet, especially one played with the proper 
mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not 
because instruments are not available.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread John Howell

At 6:03 PM -0400 8/24/07, David W. Fenton wrote:


Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically
what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and
professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the
music they are playing?


No, I don't think you're misinterpreting at all.  I've commented that 
there is really no standard instrumentation for concert band or wind 
ensemble, but another way of saying almost the same thing is that 
there are too many standard instrumentations!  In the instrument 
lists you quoted and suggested, the one glaring omission is a 
saxophone section.  And in the old pieces I've examined so far, some 
have saxes, some don't, and for those that do you find the soprano 
more often than 1st and 2nd altos.


As to adapting instrumentation to the music, I tried to point out 
that most bands do not and cannot, with the possible exceptions of 
the wind ensembles at large music schools or bands that consider 
themselves truly professional.  And of course among that handful of 
professional bands we have to include the premier bands in each of 
the military services, and they cannot blithely add instruments to 
order because the players must be in the military and must be 
assigned to specific bands and have their own line in the Table of 
Organization.


And by the way, I agree with you that the best college wind ensembles 
should be included at the professional level, but only because there 
are so few truly professional wind ensemble, especially touring 
ensembles in existence today.  Again, there's a world of difference 
between the band world and the orchestra world.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Raymond Horton

A couple of observations.


One - on those recordings, if you check the later set of recordings, 
(the last two sets were done in the last two weeks) you'll see the 
instrumentation shift a bit, as different players become available, I 
suppose (a few more clarinets, mainly).This type of instrumentation, 
on these Fulton recordings, is nearly the minimum required.  It is a lot 
of fun to play in a group like that.  I'm surprised by large number (4) 
of trombones, actually. 



You are exactly right, to a point.  When playing works of the early and 
mid-nineteenth century, historical modern performances can and should 
try to reproduce the instrumentation of the time, and some colleges and 
whatever pro performances occur, will do that, time to time. 



But the tradition of band music, (the changing personnel on these 
recordings even gives us a hint), is pretty much 'whoever shows up gets 
to play', so it is also quite 'authentic' to play these marches and 
later works with small groups, large groups, or whatever is around, and 
try to make the balance work with whatever you have. 



I'll go out on a limb and say that _generally_ Fulton, Sousa, and modern 
university and pro bands play/played pieces like marches with whomever 
they have/had present at the time.  The instrumentation varied for 
Sousa, certainly, over the years, and I imagine he did much re-scoring 
of even his more serious works and transcriptions to suit his changing 
band, rather than send players off-stage or see them sit idle.



This is the blessing and curse of the bands, as we have been discussing.


Raymond Horton



David W. Fenton wrote:

On 24 Aug 2007 at 16:33, Daniel Wolf wrote:

  

I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands.  Is
there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to
meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? 
Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting

certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or
disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note?  If someone has
articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation,
I'd certainly be interested in reading it.



I'll let the band folks answer the question you asked, but something 
similar did occur to me, stemming from the discussion of 
instrumentation on the list last night that followed my post.


I was impressed with the *sound* of the music, based on the sightread 
recordings, which are really quite delightful. Their instrumentation 
is listed on the recording page:


1 Db Piccolo
1 Eb Clarinet
6 Bb Clarinet
1 Eb Cornet
4 Bb Cornet
4 Eb Horn
4 Trombone
1 Euphonium
1 Tuba
3 Percussion

...and that is definitely an odd one, from *my* experience with band 
music (I was librarian for my high school band and had to prepare 
lots of old music for performance by our modern band instrumentation, 
which meant adapting parts with clefs and key signatures, mostly, 
though, the horn players had to learn to transpose at sight when 
there were on Eb horn parts). I am mostly unfamiliar with the 
European and British band traditions, and the recordings I heard of 
this group sounded notably *Italian* to me.


I was most surprised at the small number cornets, and noted that in 
some of the recordings, clarinets on descant parts completely covered 
up melody lines in the lower range of the cornet parts. Obviously, 
balances are going to be hard to get right in a sightreading session, 
but this was a very common texture for trios, for instance, with 
descant clarinets and cornet in a relatively low range (the first 
octave above middle C). It seemed that perhaps there were too many 
clarinets relative to the cornets. 

On the other hand, it could very well have been a artifact of 
microphone placement -- you can't really tell what live balances 
sound like from an MP3!


In any event, what exact tradition is that instrumentation in? It's 
not at all the same as what I saw in all the marches that my high 
school band played (usually in original editions), though I guess 
they were mostly later (Sousa, Fillmore, etc.) and reflected a 
different tradition.


I think efforts should be made by modern performers to play this 
repertory as close as possible to the original instrumentation. That 
would mean:


1 Db Piccolo - C Piccolo
1 Eb Clarinet
6 Bb Clarinet
1 Eb Cornet - ?
4 Bb Cornet - Trumpets if you don't have cornets
4 Eb Horn - F Horn
4 Trombone
1 Euphonium
1 Tuba
3 Percussion

Naturally, replacing cornets with trumpets is a *major* change in 
sound, and F Horns are very different from Eb horns. And, yes, Db 
picc is very different from C, but in a band texture, not so much 
that it would matter a lot compared to simply not performing it. 
Performing the original instrumentation with the nearest 
corresponding instruments seems to me to be better than wholesale 
adding a bunch of parts and lines that don't exist in the original.


Of course, if you'r

Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread arabushk
Very often in school bands there's an unspoken requirement that everyone
be playing most of the time to keep them occupied. When I wrote my first
wind ensemble piece my intent was NOT to write yet another John
Cacavas-type excursion into razzle-dazzle, I was roundly criticized for
not having everyone playing all the time. Can't please everyone.



Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread David W. Fenton
On 24 Aug 2007 at 16:33, Daniel Wolf wrote:

> I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands.  Is
> there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to
> meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? 
> Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting
> certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or
> disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note?  If someone has
> articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation,
> I'd certainly be interested in reading it.

I'll let the band folks answer the question you asked, but something 
similar did occur to me, stemming from the discussion of 
instrumentation on the list last night that followed my post.

I was impressed with the *sound* of the music, based on the sightread 
recordings, which are really quite delightful. Their instrumentation 
is listed on the recording page:

1 Db Piccolo
1 Eb Clarinet
6 Bb Clarinet
1 Eb Cornet
4 Bb Cornet
4 Eb Horn
4 Trombone
1 Euphonium
1 Tuba
3 Percussion

...and that is definitely an odd one, from *my* experience with band 
music (I was librarian for my high school band and had to prepare 
lots of old music for performance by our modern band instrumentation, 
which meant adapting parts with clefs and key signatures, mostly, 
though, the horn players had to learn to transpose at sight when 
there were on Eb horn parts). I am mostly unfamiliar with the 
European and British band traditions, and the recordings I heard of 
this group sounded notably *Italian* to me.

I was most surprised at the small number cornets, and noted that in 
some of the recordings, clarinets on descant parts completely covered 
up melody lines in the lower range of the cornet parts. Obviously, 
balances are going to be hard to get right in a sightreading session, 
but this was a very common texture for trios, for instance, with 
descant clarinets and cornet in a relatively low range (the first 
octave above middle C). It seemed that perhaps there were too many 
clarinets relative to the cornets. 

On the other hand, it could very well have been a artifact of 
microphone placement -- you can't really tell what live balances 
sound like from an MP3!

In any event, what exact tradition is that instrumentation in? It's 
not at all the same as what I saw in all the marches that my high 
school band played (usually in original editions), though I guess 
they were mostly later (Sousa, Fillmore, etc.) and reflected a 
different tradition.

I think efforts should be made by modern performers to play this 
repertory as close as possible to the original instrumentation. That 
would mean:

1 Db Piccolo - C Piccolo
1 Eb Clarinet
6 Bb Clarinet
1 Eb Cornet - ?
4 Bb Cornet - Trumpets if you don't have cornets
4 Eb Horn - F Horn
4 Trombone
1 Euphonium
1 Tuba
3 Percussion

Naturally, replacing cornets with trumpets is a *major* change in 
sound, and F Horns are very different from Eb horns. And, yes, Db 
picc is very different from C, but in a band texture, not so much 
that it would matter a lot compared to simply not performing it. 
Performing the original instrumentation with the nearest 
corresponding instruments seems to me to be better than wholesale 
adding a bunch of parts and lines that don't exist in the original.

Of course, if you're using this music in school band (and it's 
perfectly suitable for it, indeed, I would say quite excellent 
educationally in terms of musical style and balance of 
technical/rhythmic challenges), you'd need to adapt so that everyone 
has something to play.

But to me, for more professional-level bands (which to me includes 
university bands), I think I'd go with an approach similar to modern 
orchestras, which, for instance, cut their string sections for Mozart 
in comparison to Brahms.

But that doesn't seem to be often done.

The difference here is one of what your editions provides and what 
each individual ensemble with choose to perform with. I would think 
the edition should include all the parts for a modern band, which 
would allow any organization to play it, but that the more advanced 
groups should choose to replicate the original instrumentation as 
closely as possible. This would mean identifying the added parts in 
some way (probably in the score would suffice).

Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically 
what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and 
professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the 
music they are playing?

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Christopher Smith


On Aug 24, 2007, at 4:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument  
plays
what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never  
appear on

any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's
interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently  
published
Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially  
transposed
oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is  
available).


Good for you!

I know that I shouldn't be so cavalier about changing arrangements,  
but if THEY are going to be so lackadaisical, then I will just follow  
suit. Obviously, I am not going to be substituting parts in  
Stravinsky's Octet (I'll just have to wait to have the players) but  
there is SO much overdone stuff out there...


christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread arabushk
And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays
what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on
any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's
interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published
Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed
oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available).


Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Raymond Horton
Marching was only an occasional, necessary evil for these guys.  
Generally it was two to three concerts a day, in different locations.



We are talking about the biggest name in popular music of his day.  In 
those decades - the peak year being 1910, there were hundreds of 
professional bands touring the country.  Sousa was only the most 
well-known, followed closely by Arthur Pryor, his former Assistant 
Conductor and trombone soloist.   When one of these bands came in, it 
was like the Elvis coming to town. 



RBH


Christopher Smith wrote:


On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote:

There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation 
and that of contemporary bands,


[snip]

The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and 
a harpist as soloists,


Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my 
tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse! 
I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate 
marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at 
least twice as heavy.


Great discussion, guys!

Christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


RE: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Williams, Jim

Ray-
Who's doing your double bell??
Jim



From: Raymond Horton
Sent: Fri 24-Aug-07 14:18
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music


Daniel Wolf wrote:
There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation 
and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth 
noting.  All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. 
The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto 
and one bass clarinet.  Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he 
discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes.  The use of 
contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited 
to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. 
The sax section varied from four to eight players.  Trumpets and 
cornets were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two 
trumpet to four cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower 
cornet parts were taken by flugelhorns.  Always four horns, and four 
trombones to two (or later) one euphonium.  Sousa only had 
upright-bell sousaphones, and the earlier bands used a mixture of 
tubas and sousaphone, while the later bands used sousaphones 
exclusively. Always three percussionists.  The band membership also 
included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, 
with the harpist also a standard member of the full ensemble, seated 
front center between woodwinds and brasses.


Daniel Wolf
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

This segregation of cornets and trumpet _parts_, (although the 
instruments were totally mixed up half and half) was still the norm in 
bands when I was a lad, but is uncommon now, I suppose.   In my first 
formative year playing in a good high school band (1965-66), I played 
next to the first "trumpet," who was the second best player in the 
section and sat on the opposite end of the section from the first 
"cornet."   Both were playing the wrong instruments, though.  A year 
later, the first "trumpet" had advanced to first "cornet", but he had 
traded his cornet in for a new trumpet. 



Whenever bands play works with both cornet and trumpet parts, all parts 
are played, of course, but there are not distinct sections, and the only 
kids with cornets are the ones who got them out of their granddad's 
attics. 



I don't really know what the standard instrumentation for a new band 
piece is, I suppose 3 or 4 parts for "cornets/trumpets."  In the one 
large work I wrote for concert band (my master's thesis) back in '75 I 
used three cornet and two trumpet parts - with the trumpet parts being 
intended for a smaller section or one on a part.  I found it very useful.



On another subject you bring up - the low WWs, that large band I played 
in for a year in the 8th grade in 65-66 had the most amazing low reed 
section: BBb and Eb contrabass clarinets (that's the name I'm sticking 
to for the latter no matter what's done to me), four bass clarinets, 
bass sax, one or two bari sax, all complimenting a section of six 
tubas.  We played a nice arrangement of J.S. Bach's _Fantasia_ in G that 
started with a bass low G - a sound I'll never forget. 



Do you have any idea if the tuba-sousaphone mixture was intentional, and 
was the change to all sousaphones intentional?  I wonder if they 
actually sounded better than the other tubas available at the time?



I am in the process of having a _removable_ double bell added to one of 
my euphoniums, but I haven't heard from the guy doing it for months (he 
was so confident at the start!).  I really should email him...




Raymond Horton
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Raymond Horton

Daniel Wolf wrote:
There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation 
and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth 
noting.  All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. 
The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto 
and one bass clarinet.  Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he 
discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes.  The use of 
contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited 
to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. 
The sax section varied from four to eight players.  Trumpets and 
cornets were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two 
trumpet to four cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower 
cornet parts were taken by flugelhorns.  Always four horns, and four 
trombones to two (or later) one euphonium.  Sousa only had 
upright-bell sousaphones, and the earlier bands used a mixture of 
tubas and sousaphone, while the later bands used sousaphones 
exclusively. Always three percussionists.  The band membership also 
included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, 
with the harpist also a standard member of the full ensemble, seated 
front center between woodwinds and brasses.


Daniel Wolf
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

This segregation of cornets and trumpet _parts_, (although the 
instruments were totally mixed up half and half) was still the norm in 
bands when I was a lad, but is uncommon now, I suppose.   In my first 
formative year playing in a good high school band (1965-66), I played 
next to the first "trumpet," who was the second best player in the 
section and sat on the opposite end of the section from the first 
"cornet."   Both were playing the wrong instruments, though.  A year 
later, the first "trumpet" had advanced to first "cornet", but he had 
traded his cornet in for a new trumpet. 



Whenever bands play works with both cornet and trumpet parts, all parts 
are played, of course, but there are not distinct sections, and the only 
kids with cornets are the ones who got them out of their granddad's 
attics. 



I don't really know what the standard instrumentation for a new band 
piece is, I suppose 3 or 4 parts for "cornets/trumpets."  In the one 
large work I wrote for concert band (my master's thesis) back in '75 I 
used three cornet and two trumpet parts - with the trumpet parts being 
intended for a smaller section or one on a part.  I found it very useful.



On another subject you bring up - the low WWs, that large band I played 
in for a year in the 8th grade in 65-66 had the most amazing low reed 
section: BBb and Eb contrabass clarinets (that's the name I'm sticking 
to for the latter no matter what's done to me), four bass clarinets, 
bass sax, one or two bari sax, all complimenting a section of six 
tubas.  We played a nice arrangement of J.S. Bach's _Fantasia_ in G that 
started with a bass low G - a sound I'll never forget. 



Do you have any idea if the tuba-sousaphone mixture was intentional, and 
was the change to all sousaphones intentional?  I wonder if they 
actually sounded better than the other tubas available at the time?



I am in the process of having a _removable_ double bell added to one of 
my euphoniums, but I haven't heard from the guy doing it for months (he 
was so confident at the start!).  I really should email him...




Raymond Horton
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Dean M. Estabrook

Ah, many thanks.

Dean

On Aug 23, 2007, at 7:37 PM, John Howell wrote:


At 6:47 PM -0700 8/23/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Hey, John ... could you clue me in as to what site you visited to  
get the PDF's?  Are they in score format, condensed, or what? I'm  
attempting to upgrade my bandstrating skills, and find that score  
study is an excellent way to do it, especially if a performance is  
available.


North Royalton Community Band
Digital Music Library
Dana M. Bailey, Jr. Collection
Music Committee Members
Tom Pechnik, Senior Archivist; Mary Phillips; Wayne Dydo; Bill  
Park, Director

14713 Ridge Rd.
North Royalton, OH 44133
www.nr-cb.

They are scans of the original quickstep sized parts, no scores  
(never any published), and no audio clips at that particular  
website. Pretty good selection of pieces, many if not most from the  
Filmore Bros. Co. in Cincinnati.


You can really see where Hal Leonard got the idea for the  
simplified marching band arrangements they were publishing 'way  
back in the early '50s:  melody for C and Bb instruments; first  
harmony part for Bb instruments; second harmony part for Bb and Eb  
instruments; countermelody part for Bb instruments in different  
clefs; bass line with alternate key signatures for bari sax; and  
drums.  Very solid, none of those chirping woodwind parts!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home


Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread John Howell

At 4:33 PM +0200 8/24/07, Daniel Wolf wrote:
I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. 
Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores 
to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized 
instrumentation?  Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons 
for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or for 
allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note?  If 
someone has articulated a case for a particular standard for band 
instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it.


You've touched on a sore point, Daniel, and it is an important one. 
Fundamentally, there is no prescribed instrumentation for the concert 
band, in the sense that there is for the orchestra.  And this forces 
band composers and arrangers into a situation where they may want 
certain specific tone colors, but cannot be assured of having those 
instruments and players available.  Which means, in turn, that they 
must cross-cue important passages, or double them more thickly than 
they might want to, to make sure that the musical elements will be 
there even though the preferred tone color will not.


This relates, in general, to the lower instruments in each section. 
Alto, tenor, and bari saxes are almost always available, but bass is 
not, nor is soprano.  Bb clarinets abound, but one might not find an 
Eb soprano, Eb alto, Eb bass or BBb contrabass.  One may want true 
bass trombone, but instead have only 3rd trombone.  And one may want 
true cornets and flugelhorns, but will have only trumpets.  And one 
may or may not have any oboes at all, more than one bassoon, and 
probably not English horn or contrabassoon.


In the case of orchestras, the idea is to "play as scored," which 
means that if additional instruments are needed for a particular 
composition, the orchestra manager hires the additional players. 
Very few concert bands are in any position to do the same.  The only 
exceptions are (a) those which consider themselves to be truly 
professional and WILL hire additional players; (b) University wind 
ensembles for which the school owns the more exotic instruments and 
can assign students to learn to play them; or (c) ensembles of fixed 
instrumentation, such as traditional brass bands.


There are also traditions involved.  Some bands use double bass, 
others do not.  The USAF Band has long used cellos; most bands do 
not.  Baritones and euphoniums are used interchangeably in the U.S., 
and the special sound of the cornet has all but disappeared.


Of course one can always CHOOSE to omit certain instruments, as 
indeed orchestra composers can also do, but fundamentally band 
players want to be playing all the time on everything (as long as 
there are enough rests to rest the lips!).  I'm sure that individual 
publishers have their own "standard" band instrumentations, but the 
problem is that none of them is truly a "standard."


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread arabushk
Hmm...very luxuriant! Such a wide selection of double reeds is quite a
luxury in many bands nowadays (I remember only being able to write one
each oboe and bassoon part when I wrote my HS band stuff).


Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk

> There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and
> that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth
> noting.  All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The
> Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and
> one bass clarinet.  Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he
> discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes.  The use of
> contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited
> to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. The
> sax section varied from four to eight players.  Trumpets and cornets
> were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two trumpet to four
> cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower cornet parts were
> taken by flugelhorns.  Always four horns, and four trombones to two (or
> later) one euphonium.  Sousa only had upright-bell sousaphones, and the
> earlier bands used a mixture of tubas and sousaphone, while the later
> bands used sousaphones exclusively. Always three percussionists.  The
> band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a
> harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full
> ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses.
>
> Daniel Wolf
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


RE: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Williams, Jim

Don't forget Woody Allen marching with the cello in TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN...



From: Christopher Smith
Sent: Fri 24-Aug-07 11:37
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music


On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote:

There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation  
and that of contemporary bands,


[snip]

The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist,  
and a harpist as soloists,


Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my  
tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse!  
I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate  
marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at  
least twice as heavy.


Great discussion, guys!

Christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Christopher Smith


On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote:

There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation  
and that of contemporary bands,


[snip]

The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist,  
and a harpist as soloists,


Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my  
tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse!  
I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate  
marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at  
least twice as heavy.


Great discussion, guys!

Christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread John Howell

At 5:00 PM +0200 8/24/07, Daniel Wolf wrote:
There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation 
and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features 
worth noting.  All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd 
doubling EH. The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with 
only one alto and one bass clarinet.


What?!!!  You mean that Meredith Willson's story about the 2nd bass 
clarinetist (in his book, "And There I Stood With My Piccolo") isn't 
true?  And I must say that I have trouble picturing a band with 
27 clarinets fitting in one of the typical gazebos of the day.


The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, 
and a harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member 
of the full ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and 
brasses.


One of the funniest musical sight-gags I've ever seen was with the 
Spike Jones band, with a harpist on a raised platform.  As the 
curtain opened she was sitting there behind her harp, knitting a 
scarf.  As the show went on she continued knitting but never played a 
single note, and by the end of the show the scarf was about 20 feet 
long!!!


Oh well; I'm easily entertained.

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Christopher Smith


On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote:

I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands.   
Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores  
to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized  
instrumentation?  Might there not be some legitimate musical  
reasons for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or  
for allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue  
note?  If someone has articulated a case for a particular standard  
for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it.


The rationale would be maximising sales; to make the arrangement  
playable for as many different bands as possible through doubling  
everything up the wazoo. If there is a lot of repertoire for a  
certain instrumentation, there is more likely to be a group formed to  
play that repertoire.


After a twenty-year break, I am this semester starting to conduct the  
school's wind ensemble. I always did, and will probably continue to  
do, massage the arrangements somewhat, asking some instruments to  
tacet a doubled part, changing to one-to-a-part in some sections, and  
adding parts in where they are missing, need doubling, or would go  
better on a different instrument.


Some arrangements require little or no adjustment, some  
(particularly, as you mention, the ones aimed an educational market)  
need it a lot, as they are overwritten and overdoubled all over the  
place to allow for missing and understaffed instruments, and for weak  
players on some parts. My own bands had and will have their own  
problems, and I will have to allow for those problems myself, which  
would have been impossible for every arranger to do, since they don't  
know my band.


At least it is easier to tacet someone than to add in a part that is  
missing and uncued.


Some schools make a distinction between massed bands (concert band)  
and wind ensemble (one to a part, not necessarily standardised  
instrumentation.) In my school we don't have enough players to make  
that distinction, but I will probably draw on repertoire from both  
camps, letting the unused players take a break, or go off and  
rehearse their smaller piece on their own.


That's just my take on it, of course.

Christopher


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Carolyn Bremer
As someone who writes a lot for band, I can say that a great deal of
flexibility already exists. There is no prescribed standard.

This works both for and against the composer: I can ask for just about
anything (8 horns, bass sax, harp, electric bass), but I have also
seen pieces with a more common instrumentation performed without
critical instruments (no oboe, no Eb clar, whatever).

-Carolyn Bremer


On 8/24/07, Daniel Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands.  Is
> there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet
> some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation?  Might
> there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain
> instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional
> doublings or playing cue note?  If someone has articulated a case for a
> particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be
> interested in reading it.
>
> Daniel Wolf
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread John Howell

At 9:17 AM -0500 8/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Think it's time for a HIP band movement? I'm impressed that anyone here
has actually SEEN a d-flat piccolo. (And then there are Wagner's d-flat
trumpets and horns (assuming that they were intended to be for real))


The use of Db piccolos AND Db flutes (I don't 
know about the brass instruments) arose from the 
firmly held (and spurious) belief that flutes 
were more comfortable in sharp keys (or, 
alternatively, that they were uncomfortable in 
flat keys).  That wasn't even true for the 18th 
century 1-keyed flute, for which F, Bb, and Ab 
used cross fingerings, and CERTAINLY was never 
true of the Böhm flute, with natural scale 
fingering for F and Bb.  And of course the 3rd 
sharp is the same fingering as the 3rd flat 
(assuming equal temperament).


Because of the cross fingerings, I will stipulate 
that it may have been true FOR BEGINNERS, but not 
for professionals.  In fact one of the goals of 
the 19th century conservatories was to force 
students past what was "easy" on their 
instruments and make sure that they could play 
equally well what was "difficult."


But everyone and his orchestration teacher 
believed thoroughly in this urban legend, and I 
wouldn't be surprised to find it repeated in 20th 
century orchestration books.  It ain't 
necessarily so!


Oh, and there's already a sort of HIP orchestra 
movement, which takes into consideration the fact 
that, for example, the wind instruments for which 
Stravinsky wrote in Paris were not the same and 
did not sound the same as the instruments that 
are favored today.  And of course there are 
reenactment bands using 19th century saxhorns, 
just as there are reenactments of Civil War 
battles.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Daniel Wolf
I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands.  Is 
there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet 
some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation?  Might 
there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain 
instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional 
doublings or playing cue note?  If someone has articulated a case for a 
particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be 
interested in reading it.


Daniel Wolf
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread Daniel Wolf
There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and 
that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth 
noting.  All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The 
Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and 
one bass clarinet.  Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he 
discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes.  The use of 
contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited 
to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. The 
sax section varied from four to eight players.  Trumpets and cornets 
were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two trumpet to four 
cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower cornet parts were 
taken by flugelhorns.  Always four horns, and four trombones to two (or 
later) one euphonium.  Sousa only had upright-bell sousaphones, and the 
earlier bands used a mixture of tubas and sousaphone, while the later 
bands used sousaphones exclusively. Always three percussionists.  The 
band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a 
harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full 
ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses.


Daniel Wolf
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread arabushk
Think it's time for a HIP band movement? I'm impressed that anyone here
has actually SEEN a d-flat piccolo. (And then there are Wagner's d-flat
trumpets and horns (assuming that they were intended to be for real))



Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-24 Thread arabushk
Hmm...would've been interesting to hear Omar Khayyam set to music by Sousa
(assuming, of course, that he could've gotten permission!).



Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk

> This band talk started me doing some surfing, which turned up this quote:
>
>
>
>
> "A horse, a dog, a girl, a gun, and music on the side  that is my
> idea of heaven."
>
> - John Phillip Sousa
>
>
>
>
>
> It's undoubtedly a good thing that I go back to work next week.
>
>
> RBH
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread Chuck Israels
Just a comment on the subject of music from this period: there used  
to be (now lost) in our school music library, an LP of Sousa marches  
directed by some of his family descendants.  It was remarkably light  
and clear, more transparently orchestrated and played than anything  
we hear now.  It was a revelation to me and made me appreciate the  
grace of this music, as well as the effect of power we normally get  
from it.


I'd love to hear that recording again, but it's been lost from here  
for years.


Chuck


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread Raymond Horton

This band talk started me doing some surfing, which turned up this quote:




"A horse, a dog, a girl, a gun, and music on the side  that is my 
idea of heaven."
   
- John Phillip Sousa






It's undoubtedly a good thing that I go back to work next week.


RBH
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread Raymond Horton

John Howell wrote:




The marches and "smears" I downloaded have a few more problems. ALWAYS 
Db piccolo, and sometimes no C flute parts.  Sometimes oboe, sometimes 
not, and bassoons likewise.  Sometimes no saxes, but other times saxes 
including soprano (and never 1st and 2nd alto).  And the brass parts 
often seem to reflect a saxhorn band plus trombones, or perhaps the 
English/European brass band background:  cornets rather than trumpets, 
including Eb cornet in many cases; Eb altos; Bb tenors, PLUS Bb 
baritones, PLUS 2 trombones sometimes in treble clef and sometimes in 
bass.  And never, EVER anything like a full score. Not even a 
condensed score.  Just a Solo Cornet part with a few cues in it.


Don't get me wrong; transcribing is possible and I plan to work on 
some, but I'm working from PDFs of scans of the original quickstep 
sized parts, and sometimes the scans are ambiguous about things like 
ledger lines.  The first thing I'll have to do is to reconstruct a 
full score of the original version, just to make sure I can see 
everything that's happening and how the doublings are balanced.


Of course I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I hate the concept of 
just borrowing lines from existing parts and pasting them into the 
parts I'm adding, but sometimes that's the only thing you can do and 
remain true to the original.  When I add String Paks to holliday band 
arrangements, on the other hand, I always try to add some new 
sweetening that is NOT in the original.


Fun, though!

John


I see, yes, you do have more problems, as you are working with earlier 
instrumentations which are more like brass band plus treble reeds.  No 
flute parts - interesting!And I always thought the convention of Db 
picc with C flute was odd.   [When I played rodeos, in my late teens 
(ca. 1972), which included the fastest "gallops" (marches played one 
beat to a bar) I've ever had to play, the picc player would keep both a 
C and Db picc on his lap.] 



One thing - it seems to me that in _all_ the old American band music I 
have ever seen the parts for "Bb tenors 1&2" are identical to "trombones 
1&2" except for clef.  Is the music you are working with any 
exception?   This is certainly not true in the British brass band 
tradition, of course (where the equivalent Bb instruments are called 
baritones, anyway).



Missing the Eb soprano cornet is a problem for modern band with these 
older works, but with more woodwinds in the modern band this can often 
suffice.   I've been working a lot with British-style brass bands, 
lately, and the Eb soprano cornets are certainly the woodwinds of those 
groups.



Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread John Howell

At 6:47 PM -0700 8/23/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Hey, John ... could you clue me in as to what site you visited to 
get the PDF's?  Are they in score format, condensed, or what? I'm 
attempting to upgrade my bandstrating skills, and find that score 
study is an excellent way to do it, especially if a performance is 
available.


North Royalton Community Band
Digital Music Library
Dana M. Bailey, Jr. Collection
Music Committee Members
Tom Pechnik, Senior Archivist; Mary Phillips; Wayne Dydo; Bill Park, Director
14713 Ridge Rd.
North Royalton, OH 44133
www.nr-cb.

They are scans of the original quickstep sized parts, no scores 
(never any published), and no audio clips at that particular website. 
Pretty good selection of pieces, many if not most from the Filmore 
Bros. Co. in Cincinnati.


You can really see where Hal Leonard got the idea for the simplified 
marching band arrangements they were publishing 'way back in the 
early '50s:  melody for C and Bb instruments; first harmony part for 
Bb instruments; second harmony part for Bb and Eb instruments; 
countermelody part for Bb instruments in different clefs; bass line 
with alternate key signatures for bari sax; and drums.  Very solid, 
none of those chirping woodwind parts!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread John Howell

At 10:00 PM -0400 8/23/07, Raymond Horton wrote:

The instrumentation difference is not quite as major as you make it 
seem, really.  Just look at this list from David's link:

---

   * Full Score
   * (4) C Flute + opt Pic * (1) Eb Clarinet  
   * (3) 1'st Bb Clarinets

   * (3) 2'nd Bb Clarinets
   * (3) 3'rd Bb Clarinets  
   * (1) Bb Bass Clarinet*
   * (2) Bassoon*  
   * (2) 1'st Eb Alto Sax  
   * (2) 2'nd Eb Alto Sax
   * (1) Tenor Sax* (1) Baritone Sax*  
   * (2) Solo Cornet**  
   * (2) 1'st Trumpet  
   * (2) 2'nd Trumpet * (2) 1'st-2'nd Horn in F

   * (2) 3'rd-4'th Horn in F
   * (2) 1'st Trombone   
   * (2) 2'nd Trombone  
   * (1) BC Baritone Horn * (1) TC Baritone Horn* (2) Tuba  
   * (1) Snare Drum* (2) Bass Drum & Cymbals.


* = optional parts not included in original edition.
** = solo here just indicates the melody. It can and should be doubled.

---


The re-editing in this case consisted of adding parts for Bass 
Clarinet, Bassoons, and Bar. Sax.  Simple enough - most of that 
would come from the tuba part or an upper octave bass line part 
(probably both in the bassoons).  Earlier works for wind groups 
generally did not have sax parts, so more work (and more editorial 
presumption) would be needed in those cases.


The marches and "smears" I downloaded have a few more problems. 
ALWAYS Db piccolo, and sometimes no C flute parts.  Sometimes oboe, 
sometimes not, and bassoons likewise.  Sometimes no saxes, but other 
times saxes including soprano (and never 1st and 2nd alto).  And the 
brass parts often seem to reflect a saxhorn band plus trombones, or 
perhaps the English/European brass band background:  cornets rather 
than trumpets, including Eb cornet in many cases; Eb altos; Bb 
tenors, PLUS Bb baritones, PLUS 2 trombones sometimes in treble clef 
and sometimes in bass.  And never, EVER anything like a full score. 
Not even a condensed score.  Just a Solo Cornet part with a few cues 
in it.


Don't get me wrong; transcribing is possible and I plan to work on 
some, but I'm working from PDFs of scans of the original quickstep 
sized parts, and sometimes the scans are ambiguous about things like 
ledger lines.  The first thing I'll have to do is to reconstruct a 
full score of the original version, just to make sure I can see 
everything that's happening and how the doublings are balanced.


Of course I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I hate the concept 
of just borrowing lines from existing parts and pasting them into the 
parts I'm adding, but sometimes that's the only thing you can do and 
remain true to the original.  When I add String Paks to holliday band 
arrangements, on the other hand, I always try to add some new 
sweetening that is NOT in the original.


Fun, though!

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread Raymond Horton

David W. Fenton wrote:

I just became aware of this:

http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm

And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain 
infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they 
were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece.


Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, 
that's *fabulous*!


  

Thanks for the link!  Quite interesting!


There is stuff like this happening around.  Take a look at this, on 
"Custer's last Band":



http://www.usd.edu/smm/Vinatierimusic.html



Steve Charpié, who was in charge of this, was around Louisville for a 
time after he did this (played some extra with the LO), and I bought a 
copy of the CD from him.  We spoke about trying to make some of the 
music available for modern ensembles.  He seemed pretty exhausted with 
the project, but I wasn't - I had an idea of taking the Finale files he 
had prepared for the small group from the CD, go back to his photocopies 
of the Vinatieri MS's, and publish something both scholarly and 
playable, (probably for modern brass band as the closest thing to 
Vinatieri's ensemble).   But we never got past the talking on the tour 
bus stage before he left town for good.




Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread Dean M. Estabrook
Hey, John ... could you clue me in as to what site you visited to get  
the PDF's?  Are they in score format, condensed, or what? I'm  
attempting to upgrade my bandstrating skills, and find that score  
study is an excellent way to do it, especially if a performance is  
available.


Thanks,

Dean

On Aug 23, 2007, at 6:36 PM, John Howell wrote:


At 9:17 PM -0400 8/23/07, David W. Fenton wrote:

I just became aware of this:

http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm

And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain
infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they
were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece.

Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so,
that's *fabulous*!


I wouldn't say "lots," but yes, it's a growing trend, and in almost  
every case a labor of love for the folks who organize the sites.  
This one was new to me.  There is a Sousa Project somewhere (I may  
have it bookmarked) that I don't think is completely limited to  
Sousa's music (which went far beyond just the 10 best-known  
marches). And I recently downloaded several pieces as PDFs from yet  
another site.  Having the recorded demos is fabulous, but those of  
us involved in bands are more concerned with being able to get the  
music so we can play them!


The problem is that this turn-of-the-century repertoire was written  
for bands with one kind of instrumentation, and the pieces really  
have to be totally re-edited for the instrumentation of a modern  
band.  That takes time.  It looks as if these Fulton pieces are  
being reedited slowly and being made available on the website, and  
you can tell how much a labor of love it is when they are selling  
for only $20 plus P&H!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home


Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread Raymond Horton

John Howell wrote:

At 9:17 PM -0400 8/23/07, David W. Fenton wrote:

I just became aware of this:

http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm

And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain
infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they
were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece.

Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so,
that's *fabulous*!


I wouldn't say "lots," but yes, it's a growing trend, and in almost 
every case a labor of love for the folks who organize the sites. This 
one was new to me.  There is a Sousa Project somewhere (I may have it 
bookmarked) that I don't think is completely limited to Sousa's music 
(which went far beyond just the 10 best-known marches). And I recently 
downloaded several pieces as PDFs from yet another site.  Having the 
recorded demos is fabulous, but those of us involved in bands are more 
concerned with being able to get the music so we can play them!


The problem is that this turn-of-the-century repertoire was written 
for bands with one kind of instrumentation, and the pieces really have 
to be totally re-edited for the instrumentation of a modern band.  
That takes time.  It looks as if these Fulton pieces are being 
reedited slowly and being made available on the website, and you can 
tell how much a labor of love it is when they are selling for only $20 
plus P&H!


John


The instrumentation difference is not quite as major as you make it 
seem, really.  Just look at this list from David's link:

---

   * Full Score
   * (4) C Flute + opt Pic  
   * (1) Eb Clarinet   
   * (3) 1'st Bb Clarinets

   * (3) 2'nd Bb Clarinets
   * (3) 3'rd Bb Clarinets   
   * (1) Bb Bass Clarinet*
   * (2) Bassoon*   
   * (2) 1'st Eb Alto Sax   
   * (2) 2'nd Eb Alto Sax
   * (1) Tenor Sax 
   * (1) Baritone Sax*   
   * (2) Solo Cornet**   
   * (2) 1'st Trumpet   
   * (2) 2'nd Trumpet  
   * (2) 1'st-2'nd Horn in F

   * (2) 3'rd-4'th Horn in F
   * (2) 1'st Trombone
   * (2) 2'nd Trombone   
   * (1) BC Baritone Horn  
   * (1) TC Baritone Horn 
   * (2) Tuba   
   * (1) Snare Drum 
   * (2) Bass Drum & Cymbals.


* = optional parts not included in original edition.
** = solo here just indicates the melody. It can and should be doubled.

---


The re-editing in this case consisted of adding parts for Bass 
Clarinet, Bassoons, and Bar. Sax.  Simple enough - most of that would 
come from the tuba part or an upper octave bass line part (probably both 
in the bassoons).  Earlier works for wind groups generally did not have 
sax parts, so more work (and more editorial presumption) would be needed 
in those cases.



The editor could have gone farther to match modern band standards, if he 
had wanted - there is no oboe part listed, for example, and that would 
have done no harm.




Raymond Horton
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread John Howell

At 9:17 PM -0400 8/23/07, David W. Fenton wrote:

I just became aware of this:

http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm

And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain
infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they
were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece.

Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so,
that's *fabulous*!


I wouldn't say "lots," but yes, it's a growing trend, and in almost 
every case a labor of love for the folks who organize the sites. 
This one was new to me.  There is a Sousa Project somewhere (I may 
have it bookmarked) that I don't think is completely limited to 
Sousa's music (which went far beyond just the 10 best-known marches). 
And I recently downloaded several pieces as PDFs from yet another 
site.  Having the recorded demos is fabulous, but those of us 
involved in bands are more concerned with being able to get the music 
so we can play them!


The problem is that this turn-of-the-century repertoire was written 
for bands with one kind of instrumentation, and the pieces really 
have to be totally re-edited for the instrumentation of a modern 
band.  That takes time.  It looks as if these Fulton pieces are being 
reedited slowly and being made available on the website, and you can 
tell how much a labor of love it is when they are selling for only 
$20 plus P&H!


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


[Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music

2007-08-23 Thread David W. Fenton
I just became aware of this:

http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm

And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain 
infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they 
were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece.

Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, 
that's *fabulous*!

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale