Temperament and evaluations
This message is from: Steve McIlree st...@carriagehorse.com I am posting this message for Phillip Odden while I try to figure out what is preventing him from posting directly to the List. -- Steve Owner/Administrator FjordHorse List From: Phillip Odden n...@norskwoodworks.com Subject: Temperament and evaluations Date: October 9, 2013 9:06:23 AM CDT To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com This message is from Phillip Odden in Northwestern Wisconsin where the fall leaves are nearing full color. I have not followed the full discussion on temperament and Fjords but I was able to see Lorie's and now Brian's post. So since I feel Brian jerking my chain in a rather soft and supportive way, I feel compelled to throw my two cents into the bottomless pit of opinions. Yes it is widely felt, and I agree, that temperament, willingness, and trainability may be measured best by standard performance tests. I can not imagine how anyone can judge performance in a conformation test when the horse only needs to stand still walk and trot. Though when a horse seems unable to do even these three things one can begin to wonder about the horse's temperament and trainability. But then there is a lot more to it than that since the horse needs to learn to behave as well off the farm as it does on the farm and to do that it needs to get used to being off the farm. All horses are good horses until you ask them to do something. Some Fjords have good temperament and are easily trained but might lack the athletic ability to do the performance tests well. Some have the athletic ability to do the tests but are unable to focus because of outside stimulation or they may be unwilling to work. Some are trainable but down right lazy. Still another group may have athletic ability and are trainable but from time to time decide to do things their way for reasons unknown. Its very difficult to depend on a horse like this. I like Fjords that are calm and easily trained, have lots of athletic ability, and dependable so that I can relax and enjoy getting the job done. Horses like this are fun to work with and much safer. Often the question comes down to nature or nurture. Is the horse naturally gifted or flawed to some degree or has the horse been trained and handled poorly? Is the trainer training the horse or is the horse training the trainer/handler? The horse is always trying to train us you know. In a 5 week station test for stallions in Norway each horse receives the same handling and training and is scored on the same set of diverse tests. The horses are generally of the same year class. The horses receive scores from the trainers and from evaluators at the conclusion of the test. The veterinarian gives a score based on the horse's conformation problems to predict durability and soundness as a breeding stallion. Some European evaluations require that horses do certain tests at a certain age. In this way it might be easier to judge how trainable the horse is if for example all three year old must do a basic performance test to be certified. In our system we judge horses three years old and older in performance and we don't take into account how many years of training and experience they have. You can train the horse for several years to do the test if you wish. And if it doesn't do well you can bring them back and try it again. The Family Fjord tests are meant to evaluate a horse first on basic ground work and later on basic riding and driving. Elements of the FF tests reflect what a well behaved Fjord should be able to do away from home while on a trail ride or pleasure drive. The expectations and skills learned in the ground tests transfer directly to the riding and driving tests. If your horse can accomplish this set of tests with a measure of grace, you probably have a trainable Fjord with a reasonably sound mind and enough athletic ability to make most people happy. The NFHR evaluation system is only a tool to help people understand their horses better. The evaluation system might be useful in identifying lines of horses or individuals with better than average or poorer than average characteristics. The program can be useful for breeders to gauge how their breeding program is going by having their offspring evaluated. All evaluation programs have strengths and weaknesses so each individual needs to bring their own knowledge and experience to the table as well in order to make informed decisions. There is more but that is enough for now. Hoping you are all enjoying your Fjords on which ever level you choose. Phil Odden Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
A Short History Evaluations in America
This message is from: Ursula Jensen ursu...@gmail.com Lori Albrough wrote a good article on the above subject, so I was hoping for some Digest discussions around these important issues. That seems to not have happened, so I thought to give a little Evaluation history lesson for new members. I will try and give a little history lesson as they unfolded in America, especially the NFHR. I was on the original Evaluation committee that was tasked to produce an Evaluation Program for America. That was back in the early 90's so there was mainly telephone and fax communication. We were assisted by Wayne Hipsley and Jim Havelhurst/Evaluators via teleconference. After much discussion about which European Evaluation Program the NFHR should adopt, someone came up with the idea of creating our own American program using parts of the European systems we felt appropriate. Stallion Testing Stations were discussed and not utilized here due to geography, economics, and cultural differences. I do personally feel it is a good idea, however there are now European Fjord countries who have dropped Stallion Testing Stations or are considering dropping it. The cost of Stallion Testing is quite high, which in America would eliminate a lot of Fjord owners who simply could not afford the Test and simply go their own way. The committee wanted the Program to be inclusive rather that exclusive. So the Program slowly developed, with the next discussion about temperament being put on the Conformation score sheet, which originally came from Wayne Hipsley. Again after lots of discussions, it was decided to have two main portions to the Evaluation Program---Conformation and Performance. Being Wayne's Conformation sheet was adopted without temperament, the committee then started work on the Performance side which included tests in Riding, Driving, and Draft. Committee members with experience in one of these disciplines were tasked to create tests at an Introductory and Advanced Level. The Performance side was utilized to test the temperament of the Fjord presented along with its ability to do Riding, Driving, and or Draft. Since ribbons were already being used for individual tests, medallions were introduced at different levels which represented the combination of Conformation and Performance, or the combination of Conformation and Temperament. The committee knew and realized the NFHR, American Program was new and at a start, so it was and still is a work in progress. Now that the NFHR had their own Evaluation in place it was time to create a Program to train new American Evaluators. In Europe most countries select Evaluator trainees and provide the funds plus the training of them to become certified. The European Evaluators have their travel and accommodation paid but receive no per diem. In America the trainees paid all their own expenses to become certified so receive travel, accommodation and a per diem. Fourteen hopefuls started the three years of Evaluator training which included working in Norway and practicing with the Senior Evaluators who were Wayne Hipsley, Jim Havelhurst, and Karen Cabic. Of the 14 starters, five trainees successfully received their Evaluator status. There were to be two Evaluators at each Evaluation. One Senior Evaluator, and one of the new Evaluators. After working six Evaluations the Junior Evaluators could be promoted to Senior Evaluator status. It is my understanding that four Junior Evaluators have been given Senior status. As the Evaluation Program has always been a work in progress, Phillip Odden wanted to introduce the Family Fjord Program into the Performance side. This was a good decision as it gives the opportunity for family Fjords to enter the program and be recognized, which supports the inclusive rather than exclusive standard. Presently it is being worked on by the Evaluation Committee, with imput from Evaluators. Germany had been using a Family Fjord Test in their program successfully for years , so I asked Susie Schon-Peterson to forward their Program to Phillip. The Family Fjord Program has filled an existing need in offering Tests for the family level of utilizing their Fjord horses. Along the way myself and Pat Wolfe were interested in the CFHA adopting the NFHR Evaluation for use in Canada. The original idea was to have two totally independent countries and independent Associations share the same program. Thanks to the NFHR and its executive this has become a reality giving the CFHA an Evaluation Program and a source of American trained Evaluators. If anyone has questions or wants clarification you can write me at our g-mail address.Brian Jensen Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Fjord temperament, breeding, and evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough l...@bluebirdlane.com There has been an interesting discussion on the list regarding the temperament of the Fjord horse, ranging from whether they are good for kids, should be called bombproof, if the breed is changing to a more reactive horse, and breeding horses with super quiet dispositions but not great conformation, etc. One comment really got my attention, when one poster said that they would gladly trade two blue evaluated Fjord horses for a pokey Fjord of yesteryear. This comment made me want to point out the difference in evaluations systems between countries. The North American system doesn't have a way to evaluate temperament or disposition. The conformation/movement portion is essentially 10-15 minutes in-hand on the triangle, and the performance tests are presenting a 15 minute test mounted or driven by the horse's own owner/trainer/handler. This gives in my opinion limited opportunity for the judges to truly know the inside of the horse. Contrast this to the 30-day stallion test in Europe, where young stallions are brought to the station and left there for the 30-day duration, where they are handled daily by trainers they don't know, who are scoring these horses on EVERYTHING. This includes the horses' behaviour in the stall, manners, willingness to work, respect, cooperation with people, ability to learn. The young stallions in the station test are taught their basics in riding, driving, and draft work, they do free jumping, riding outside in wide open spaces as well as traffic, they do basic dressage. Every facet of this work and how they deal with it is scored by their trainers. Even the vet gives a score for what the horse is like to handle! Stallions coming into the station test need to have their temporary breeding license based on a satisfactory conformation/movement score, but they will lose that license for any temperament problems that show themselves. Crib-biting for example = lost license (Fjords need to be able to tolerate long periods of time stabled in countries where land is in short supply). Biting at people = lost license. In order for a horse to receive a score of 8, which means good, the horse has to really be GOOD, which means willing, calm, sensible, respectful, thinking things through before he reacts ... in short, everything we desire in a using horse. When we purchased Mogly from Belgium (without going over to try him first) we had this tool of being able to look at his 30 day test and see his scores and the testers' comments in all categories. In his case he had an overall 83% and across the board 9's for temperament in every performance test! This was invaluable information which allowed us to make an informed decision, and we ended up with a horse who is the easiest and nicest horse I have ever handled and worked with, bar none (mare, gelding, or stallion). What I want for myself as a horse owner and breeder, is a horse that is sensible and wants to work with me, and the European station testing system actually tests for that. My belief is that disposition is highly heritable, and while there is a lot more than just genetics that goes into a finished product (correct early handling and experiences being just one example), genetics is important. I am sold on the strength of the 30-day station testing to accurately measure this important facet of an animal's overall qualities. Lori -- Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords R.R.#3 Moorefield Ont Canada N0G 2K0 phone: 519-638-5598 email: l...@bluebirdlane.com http://www.bluebirdlane.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Fjord temperament, breeding, and evaluations
This message is from: Robin Churchill rbc...@yahoo.com Similarly most of the warmblood registries require that the stallions go through a 100 day stallion performance test which is similar to what Lori described but more in-depth. In that testing temperament and rideability accounts for 45% of the stallion's score. Here is a link with a description of what the testing consists of if anyone is interested. http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/breeding/test41203/ When my friends got their Dutch Warmblood stallion approved, the cost of sending him for the testing was about $10,000 and I think that was about 10 years ago, so a significant investment. Robin in SW Florida where the weather is getting a bit better but still hot Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
2013 Evaluations and CO Update
This message is from: Jeanne jeann...@frii.com Hello Everyone, I just wanted send a note to everyone to talk about the 2013 Evaluations. In August we held an evaluation in Herndon, VA. There were 27 horses there. Margaret Bogie and Curtis Pierce coordinated this event. Last week we held another evaluation in Libby, MT. There were 19 horses there. Mary Johnson coordinated this one. I attended both these evaluations and acted as Technical Delegate. I couldnt be more pleased with the outcome. I was very happy with the evaluators at both events. We need to all be more appreciative of our evaluators not an easy job! We are so lucky to have such educated people helping us better the breed in North America. I saw some NICE horses at both evaluations. The Family Fjord tests were a big hit at both evaluations. At both, we had people adding the Family Fjord tests to their entries at the last minute. We handed out many bronze medallions. It was fun to watch, and everyone who participated said it was fun to do. Well done, Evaluation Committee, for getting these tests on board and offered to our 2013 evaluations! Many thanks to everyone who came and participated at both evaluations. A special thanks to Margaret Bogie, Curtis Pierce and Mary Johnson for coordinating these events. Looking forward to 2014 and the possibility of more evaluations! We here in Colorado are drying out. The devastation caused by the floods is unbelievable. In some places it looks like a war zone. I was at the Libby evaluation when the rain started (btw, it was 90+ in Libby!) On Thursday I received a text from my husband telling me he was evacuating my horses. ?!?! (hes not a horse person) with help from some very good friends he got them moved safely to a good fjord friends place, dryer ground. The creek we live about ½ mile from became a raging river and came within a few hundred feet of my house. On Friday we lost water. I couldnt bring my horses home without water. They restored the water yesterday and ponies are back home. We dodged a bullet, for sure. The creek Im talking about is so small normally, you can walk across it. This summer I believe it might have even dried up. Its now a raging river. Our neighbors across the road from us have severe flood damage. Other fjord friends on our road had flood damage, but I believe their horses and they are safe. Nancy Newports farm is wet, but good, as is Beth Beymer and Sandy Norths place, Starfire Farm. The temps are rising and drying everything out. Many thanks for all the calls/texts/emails from everyone asking about us. Jeanne Poirier NFHR Registrar Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: 2013 Evaluations and CO Update
This message is from: Anne Crandall ncfjo...@aol.com So glad to hear everyone made it thru OK! Take care. Anne Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Jeanne jeann...@frii.com wrote: This message is from: Jeanne jeann...@frii.com Hello Everyone, I just wanted send a note to everyone to talk about the 2013 Evaluations. In August we held an evaluation in Herndon, VA. There were 27 horses there. Margaret Bogie and Curtis Pierce coordinated this event. Last week we held another evaluation in Libby, MT. There were 19 horses there. Mary Johnson coordinated this one. I attended both these evaluations and acted as Technical Delegate. I couldn�t be more pleased with the outcome. I was very happy with the evaluator�s at both events. We need to all be more appreciative of our evaluators� not an easy job! We are so lucky to have such educated people helping us better the breed in North America. I saw some NICE horses at both evaluations. The Family Fjord tests were a big hit at both evaluations. At both, we had people adding the Family Fjord tests to their entries at the last minute. We handed out many bronze medallions. It was fun to watch, and everyone who participated said it was fun to do. Well done, Evaluation Committee, for getting these tests on board and offered to our 2013 evaluations! Many thanks to everyone who came and participated at both evaluations. A special thanks to Margaret Bogie, Curtis Pierce and Mary Johnson for coordinating these events. Looking forward to 2014 and the possibility of more evaluations! We here in Colorado are drying out. The devastation caused by the floods is unbelievable. In some places it looks like a war zone. I was at the Libby evaluation when the rain started (btw, it was 90+ in Libby!) On Thursday I received a text from my husband telling me he was evacuating my horses. ?!?! (he�s not a horse person) with help from some very good friends he got them moved safely to a good fjord friend�s place, dryer ground. The creek we live about � mile from became a raging river and came within a few hundred feet of my house. On Friday we lost water. I couldn�t bring my horses home without water. They restored the water yesterday and ponies are back home. We dodged a bullet, for sure. The creek I�m talking about is so small normally, you can walk across it. This summer I believe it might have even dried up. It�s now a raging river. Our neighbors across the road from us have severe flood damage. Other fjord friends on our road had flood damage, but I believe their horses and they are safe. Nancy Newport�s farm is wet, but good, as is Beth Beymer and Sandy North�s place, Starfire Farm. The temps are rising and drying everything out. Many thanks for all the calls/texts/emails from everyone asking about us. Jeanne Poirier NFHR Registrar Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: breeding/evaluations
This message is from: Amy Evers fjord...@aol.com This message is from: Cheryl che...@finefjords.com y opinion, short n sweet. Freedom to do what I want with MY animal, the hoice to breed to a specific animal, education to make the right breeding hoices.. heryl in Co Yes, Cheryl that's true. And always, along with freedom (in any situation) comes RESPONSIBILITY! Any person is free to breed any animal they want to breed... But, isn't it also that person's responsibility to breed the very best possible animal that they can? When a person chooses to breed any animal - and especially a REGISTERED breed - it implies that they are assuming the responsibilty for the future of that breed (species, subspecies, etc.). Part of that responsibility, in my opinion, is to educate yourself as much as possible about the animal or breed you choose, and do your best to sellect the very best breeding stock you can find, if you intend to breed. That is what programs like OUR Evaluation system are for... to assist people in making educated choices; to give them the education necessary to make good choices; to help them determin if their choices are indeed correct (according to breed standard). Just my humble opinion... Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords Cottage Grove OR 97424 Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: breeding/evaluations
This message is from: ruth bushnell fjo...@frontiernet.net I understand in Norway, and perhaps other countries as well, that only Fjords that have been evaluated and approved can be used as breeding animal. Looking at the increasing numbers of fjords in the USA that are breeding and have not been evaluated, I am wondering if it is time to introduce something like that here. Can there be another level of registration for the evaluated/breeding approved horses? How about those that are produced outside of this having a limited registration? Has this already been discussed and thrown out? Let's hear opinions. (sign your name) The current scientific mandate for best breeding strategies is for varied genetic assortment; called genetic diversity. Overall breed health is best maintained through incorporating as many original bloodlines as possible throughout the history of a breed-- this is especially true of a RARE breed because there were too few foundation animals and considerable linebreeding was commonplace in the beginning. (geographical and economical constraints) Any breeding selection process that promotes narrowed choices is diametrically opposed to genetic diversity, therefore longterm destructive to the breed's well being. An extreme example is what the show world has done to some dog breeds, not to forget that some smaller horse breeds are also in homozygous distress. We have a solemn responsibility to the welfare of the Fjord horse breed to be earnestly and actively searching for latest scientific information available on how we might best preserve their genome complement. Not by historical tradition, not by superficial preferences, but by asking for professional genetic policies which promote breed vigor--such as equal gender balance, limited stud use/or bloodline, and availing ourselves of latest university recommendations. Further restricting our breeding choices would be the very worst thing we could do for the breed's genetic integrity. Ruthie, nw mt US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Evaluations
This message is from: Sue Clark-Sorger clarksor...@comcast.net Hi All, My trainer asked me a question yesterday I couldn't find the answer to. If someone other than an owner rides a horse in an evaluation does that rider have to be a member of the NFHR?? We are hoping there will be an evaluation in Colorado next year and so are working my 2 fjords towards that goal. I own Anniken a 6 year old mare that is coming along very well in riding and driving. Anni is not a forward mare and at times she has been a challenge because she has a definite opinion on not working too hard. Paul on the other hand is much more forward. My trainer Patti has started riding this 3 year old and he just wants to canter and I have told her I want to wait until next year when he is a bit older. What do the experienced trainers on this list have to say to this is 3 too early to be cantering a 3 year old??? Paul is ridden right now 5 or 6 days a week, he is a pretty calm youngster and has been ridden out in the area with very little problem with vehicles, construction, and dogs. When I purchased this youngster in March this year I couldn't even touch his legs and certainly couldn't clean his feet. I puchased him very inexpensively from a couple in the military, stationed in Wichita Falls TX. The husband was headed for Iraq. I have 2 sons and their families who live in Wichita Falls one of my sons is named Paul same as my Fjordie. Not good reasons to buy a fjord or any horse unseen but it has ended up being a very good purchase. I like this gelding he moves well and is enjoying his training and is fun to watch him learning and trying to figure things out. I will start training him to drive this winter and who knows maybe I will have a pair to drive in a year or so, something I have long dreamed of. Happy Fjording Sue Crown Oak Fjords Sandia Park NM Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Evaluations, Promotion, and More
This message is from: kelly MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Everyone, I have been crazy busy the last month or so. I spent three weeks in Ontario, preparing for and completing my Coach 1 Evaluation. The program, run though Equine Canada, is quite intense. I worked hard at it, and thank god Jaimie and my mother were here running things. They did a great job, and I wouldn't have been able to go without their support. It was very interesting spending so much time at someone else's barn, seeing how others do things. I learned SO much, and had a great time. The best part of the trip however, was picking up Sonny and driving back to Nova Scotia with my father. We had a full trailer, two mares and Sonny. All three horses trailered like dreams, and were real troopers though our 22 hour drive. Prydarson (Sonny) has settled in beautifully. He's SUCH a nice horse, everything still feels a little surreal. I've been riding him everyday, and he's going really well under saddle. We'll start breeding in a few weeks, after he's had time to completely settle in. Sonny is now available both live cover and through AI. Contact me personally for more information on breeding to Prydarson. Yesterday I had an interesting phone call from the Can-Am All Breeds Equine Emporium. They invited me to participate in numerous breed demos with my Fjords, and even though it's short notice (it's only a month away), I agreed to participate. It should be a really great weekend. We're hoping to take four Fjords from my place, and we'll be joined by another Fjord owned my a friend of mine. We have a booth to set up to promote the breed.I'm looking for any printed material I can get, along with video's, posters, anything! Here is a link to the website promoting the show - http://www.canamequine.ca/. The evaluation we'll be hosting in July is also going to come quick. Anyone on the east coast should contact me as soon as possible regarding entry. We are SO excited this is taking place, and I'm working really hard to make it a success. I'll write more about it later, but please, anyone even thinking about attending - contact me! It's going to be a really fun, educational weekend. Pat Wolfe will be conducting an evaluation clinic prior to the evaluation - this alone is a great reason to make the trip! Finally - I'm looking for a well trained Fjord gelding for...my mother! She's ALWAYS been a hard-core quarter horse woman but finally, she has been converted. She rides western, and reay likes grey Fjords. If anyone knows of a well-trained, bombproof gelding for sale, let me know. She mostly wants to trail ride, have fun with her own horse, and possibly travel to some small schooling shows. Thanks for reading, and watch for more updates coming soon regarding the evaluation. Kelly MacDonald _ Find hidden words, unscramble celebrity names, or try the ultimate crossword puzzle with Live Search Games. Play now! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/212 The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations
This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] NFHR Evaluations 2007 There are still a few openings in the 2007 Evaluations. Please contact the coordinator if you need more information. Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Sophie Fiedler [EMAIL PROTECTED] 815-777-6008 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 509-258-7348 The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#documents The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Evaluations
This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark, The minimum number of horses needed for an evaluation is about 25. It depends on how many performance tests will be done as well as the cost of the facility and other details. We try to break even but we need to cover costs. This will be the 10th Midwest NFHR Evaluation and it will be held at La Crosse, WI - we don't use the fairgrounds at Blue Earth because it is very important to have an indoor arena and several other areas where some of the driving, draft and utility tests can be set up ahead of time. Moses Lake, Washington is a new show and they are combining it with their 1st evaluation. Libby and Moses Lake will probably alternate year. This will be the 3rd or 4th for Virginia. The Rocky Mountain Fjord Horse Club is sponsoring their 1st Evaluation in Greeley, Colorado. There has been lots of interest in these Evaluations so I think they will they will succeed. Even if you can't bring horses, we encourage you to come and observe the NFHR evaluation system in progress. Of course, volunteers are always welcome and this can be a great way to get a more thorough understanding of the evaluation process. The dates and contacts were on Digest #91 and will be on the NFHR website. If you need more information or have any questions, feel free to call or e-mail me. Sophie Fiedler 815-777-6008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:42:05 -0400 From: Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: NFHR Evaluations 2007 This message is from: Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\) [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is the minimum number of applications that you mention? Also, will there be any other evaluations, such as Blue Earth or Libby? Mark Skeels The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am reposting this, in case you missed it. The information will be on the NFHR website soon. The coordinators are in the process of mailing out Preliminary Applications. NFHR Evaluations 2007 The NFHR Evaluation Committee recommended and is pleased to announce that the BOD has approved the following evaluations pending the minimum number of participants sign up: Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Linda Syverson-Kerr -coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-526-6878 Phil Odden [EMAIL PROTECTED] 715-468-2780 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 509-258-7348 Karl Froelich You should receive a Letter and Preliminary Application from these coordinators if you live within their region. You can attend any evaluation. Feel free to contact the coordinator and they will be happy to make sure you are on the mailing list and answer any questions. The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just posted about the evaluations and somehow deleted the link to access the Evaluation Handbook. If you don't have a copy, you are missing a great educational tool. You can down load the Handbook from www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#documents or you can purchase it from the NFHR for a fee. Sophie Fiedler Evaluation Committee The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\) [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is the minimum number of applications that you mention? Also, will there be any other evaluations, such as Blue Earth or Libby? Mark Skeels -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Green Valley Farm Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:39 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: NFHR Evaluations 2007 This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am reposting this, in case you missed it. The information will be on the NFHR website soon. The coordinators are in the process of mailing out Preliminary Applications. NFHR Evaluations 2007 The NFHR Evaluation Committee recommended and is pleased to announce that the BOD has approved the following evaluations pending the minimum number of participants sign up: Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Linda Syverson-Kerr -coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-526-6878 Phil Odden [EMAIL PROTECTED] 715-468-2780 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 509-258-7348 Karl Froelich You should receive a Letter and Preliminary Application from these coordinators if you live within their region. You can attend any evaluation. Feel free to contact the coordinator and they will be happy to make sure you are on the mailing list and answer any questions. The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Evaluations in Moses Lake?
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 PM 4/17/2007, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey PNW Fjorders, Did I miss something here? Is there going to be an Evaluation associated with the August show, or at any other time? The NFHR has scheduled an Evaluation in Moses Lake on Aug 22 23, 2007. NFHR members will be receiving info about it in the US mail very soon. They entry package will be on the NFHR web site soon also. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Evaluations in Moses Lake?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey PNW Fjorders, Did I miss something here? Is there going to be an Evaluation associated with the August show, or at any other time? Eileen in wonderfully springlike eastern WA The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] NFHR Evaluations 2007 The NFHR Evaluation Committee recommended and is pleased to announce that the BOD has approved the following evaluations pending the minimum number of participants sign up: Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Linda Syverson-Kerr -coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-526-6878 Phil Odden [EMAIL PROTECTED] 715-468-2780 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] You should receive a Letter and Preliminary Application from these coordinators if you live within their region. You can attend any evaluation. Feel free to contact the coordinator and they will be happy to make sure you are on the mailing list and answer any questions. The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#documents The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Evaluations for Education , Feedback and Growth
This message is from: Ursula Brian Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List from Brian Jensen; I can thank Pat Holland for her comments on composite scoring regarding Conformation and Performance. The challenges of our original Evaluation committee was to find and design a system of scoring which assisted owners and breeders in selecting future breeding stock for their mares or stallions. Aside from the formal portion of the Evaluation of scoring for Conformation, is the Educational aspect for the owners, breeders, and other interested individuals. There is a comments portion at the bottom used by the Evaluators to make observations which would not be covered in other areas. These comments are usually of an educational nature. Education, knowledge, and information helps informed individuals make better decisions. It was decided at that time to separate Conformation and Temperament into their own categories. Ruthie mentioned that any form of an Evaluation is better than nothing. I agree. The NFHR Evaluation Program has always been a work in progress, and is open to new ideas or changes. In addressing the Temperament issue on where to place it in the Evaluation Program; I can tell you it was thoroughly discussed when the Evaluation Program was designed. The word Conformation has a specific definition about how the Fjord is put together which is called phenotype. This is what you see when looking at the Fjord. The Word Temperament is paramount to me as an Evaluator of Norwegian Fjords. The Performance Section of the Evaluation is all about, and for Temperament. The Fjord horse is known world wide for its mind or temperament. This is what sets this horse apart from others. Each section of the Performance Test is looking at temperament and tractability. The various tests of Riding, Driving, and Draft, evaluate the Fjords abilities and temperament. As well these tests recognize and support the versatility of the breed. When we designed the Performance Tests we recognized that it was not necessary to reinvent the wheel. The Evaluation Committee of that time looked to established tests in ADS, AHSA, FEI, and other known European designs. The thinking here was, that we could provide training and feedback for the Fjord and handler to improve themselves, grow and enjoy the fjord in its respective disciplines. As well, the mind or temperament of the fjord is Evaluated through the Performances of the various disciplines. In summary, the NFHR Evaluation Program provides an educational and informative Conformation set of scores and comments on Phenotype. In the Performance portion through the discipline tests it observes the Fjords mind in Riding, Driving, and Draft. The Performance Tests have two levels called Introductory and Advanced. These two levels represent a ladder of learning and training for the handler and the Fjord. Composite scoring assists the owner/breeder in making informed decisions for the future. The NFHR and its membership of Fjords and people have benefited in a positive way from the Evaluation Program. Brian Jensen Box 1032 Lumby, B.C. Canada V0E 2G0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.trinityfjords.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Blue Earth - QH's past evaluations
This message is from: Pat Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi All, First I'd like to thank everyone who is supporting this years Blue Earth show, as of this date we have 83 horses coming and I am still getting a few stragglers in with entries. Despite thoughts that it'll be a small show, it appears we will be within the number we usually have on normal years. Last year we were closer to the 140 horse range, but that was out 20th Anniversary. It's going to be another great year and again I want to mention what beautiful trophies we have this yearthe cherry wood boxes and steins are really unique. I ordered extra steins, so later after the show if anyone would like to purchase one, as a keepsake - you can do so.See me at Blue Earth or contact me privately. I can email a picture of the trophies to you for you too look at.I am also offering the original picture I drew for the trophies for sale to the highest bidder - at the Midwest Fjord Horse Club meeting/dinner Sunday evening at Blue Earth. The money received from the picture will go to the MWFHC. On another note - when I first learned what an evaluation did and was used for, I too wished the old QH industry had gone in that direction. It is a wonderful tool and might have prevented some of the current issues in the QH industry. So much of the success popularity of certain Quarter Horses and bloodlines were determined thru show placement and politics. But within the QH world there were many very dedicated breeders, some founders of AQHA that tried to hold and preserve what the QH originally was - sometimes I think if an evaluation system were in place 20 -30 years ago in AQHA, those breeders would have embraced the concept and the current QH might be a different horse today. See you all in Blue Earth.soon! Pat Holland.
Re: Blue Earth - QH's past evaluations
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] if an evaluation system were in place 20 -30 years ago in AQHA, those breeders would have embraced the concept and the current QH might be a different horse today. Pat Holland. YES, IT COULD BE WORSE! ..as any kind of directional selection can paint a breed into an inbred corner. The QH is where it's at today because of eye pleasing phenotypical decisions made in the past, with little or no regard to genotypical thought... sound familiar? Evaluations will in no way prevent inbreeding, on the contrary, they promote it by the use of blue ribbons. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Blue Earth - QH's past evaluations
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Pat, Is anyone from Washington state coming to BE? -- Genie Dethloff Ann Arbor, Michigan
NFHR Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just an FYI - The pre entry forms for the Libby Evaluation are in the mail. The ones for the Spencer, MA evaluation will be in the mail in a day or so also. If you are interested in bringing a horse(s) to either of these please get your pre entries in as soon as you can so the planning can get going. If you want to bring a horse(s) don't get a form please let me know I will see that you get one. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bits Evaluations
This message is from: Green Valley Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bits Evaluations Re: Pat Holland's question The oldest NFHR Evaluation Handbook that I have is from 2002. Riding English: Any bit approved by USA Equestrian Dressage rules ( which would mean snaffles only) I would guess that in the early years of the Evaluation bits were not checked. They are to be checked by a Technical Delegate and until recent years a person was not assigned this responsibility. I'm sure Mike May will have old copies and we can see what the original rules said. By the way Pat, in 2001 you rode Sabrine in a full cheek snaffle for the Evaluation. I thought Wayne Hipsley's reply (#109) on bits was most informative and from the responses on Digest #110 so did many others. Hopefully this discussion will lead to more educational information in the Herald, on the digest and in mini clinics at regional shows such as Blue Earth. I will keep you posted after our discussions at the Evaluation Committee meeting on May 23rd The NFHR Evaluation Handbook and the NFHR show rules are available on the NFHR website or www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#Documents These two articles are very informative. You don't have to read them page for page but use as a reference when you have a question. Sincerely, Sophie Fiedler Subject: Re: fjordhorse-digest V2006 #109 This message is from: Pat Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sophie Fiedler wrote: in late 2004 and in 2005 the rules were NOT changed but pictures and better descriptions ** At the 1998 2000 Evaluation in Blue Earth I rode horses with a kimberwick in intro and advanced english riding,.which went to earning their Medallions of Quality - why were they accepted then and not now - - if the rules were NOT changed. Could it be that the original designers did allow for such bits to be used?
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 5/16/2006 10:22:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Guess what? I have a 6 yo mare who has nothing noticeable or technically wrong w/ her mouth + palate, (even did a bit seat for her) but she is VERY sensitive and really dislikes the snaffle. OK, I'll come out of the closet and admit it... I use a Kimberwick!! Several in fact, in both my riding and driving bridles. I too found that my mares resisted and showed a real dislike for a regular snaffle bit with it's jointed mouth. Definition of snaffle... Most people think anything with a jointed or broken mouth piece is a snaffle. not so. A snaffle, as defined in a few VERY old books I had the privilege of perusing as Small Farmer's Journal when I worked there, is a bit which has a direct pull from the mouth piece to the hand (meaning no leverage). So, a snaffle can have just about any type of mouth piece. My horses happen to prefer a low port mouth. Try finding an Eggbutt with a low port mouth! Ah, but the a Kimberwick DOES come in a low port. And if used on the full ring or the upper slot, there is no leverage. So... Why does it not qualify as a snaffle? Just wondering... Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords 260 May Creek Rd Days Creek, OR 97429 541-825-3303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah, but the a Kimberwick DOES come in a low port. And if used on the full ring or the upper slot, there is no leverage. So... Why does it not qualify as a snaffle? According to what I understand from reading the USEF/USDF rules, the problem with the kimberwicke is that the reins can be attached to provide curb action. The fact that a person could choose to use the bit without curb action is irrelevant as far as the USEF/USDF rules are concerned. DeeAnna
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: Pat Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] We polled other trainers/owners and Wayne Hipsley, the chief evaluator, and all were in agreement that other bits should be allowed--that the bit component of the rules needed to be re-evaluated--especially for the advanced tests. After all, other bits are allowed in driving and the western tests. Very well put Ardeth, This has been a concern of mine and a few other trainers for several years. You are not alone on your observations. I do not know how to get the rule changed. I also brought it to the attention of a evaluation committee member last year at Lacrosse and nothing has changed. At the very least, we whom have the experiance and knowledge of the discrimination understand it. Those making the rules apparently do not. I'm with you Ardeth - but have no clue how to change it. Pat Holland
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pat Holland wrote: At the very least, we whom have the experiance and knowledge of the discrimination understand it. Those making the rules apparently do not. I was a member of the evaluation committee when the issue of bits for English tests was reviewed. I believe this took place just over one year ago, and was a result of requests for clarification by members. Anne Appleby was also a member of the committee when this rather extensive discussion was held. I do not know what you mean by we whom have the experience and knowledge of the discrimation understand it. I have been riding since I was 11 years old (whoa, that makes 30 years). I have ridden in all types of English riding except saddleseat. I understand the use of bits in english riding, and it is much easier to make a horse look trained in a bit with leverage. You cannot fake it in a snaffle. I missed part of this list discussion, but my feeling is if you are attempting to demonstrate that your horse is either trained, or not, a snaffle bit provides a level playing field. In any warmblood registry performance test (horses bred for the Olympic disciplines) a snaffle bit is the allowed bit. Lori Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords Moorefield Ontario http://www.bluebirdlane.com
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori and everyone else who reads this list and is concerend about this, I think we need to remember that we are not trying to do a 'pure' dressage test, nor a 'pure' western test...I thought the intent of the evals was to make the testing accessible to most fjord owners, not you and i and the others who train + show on a regular basis.. If i was going to show at a recognised dressage show of course i would comply w/ the equipment rules, but if someone regulary rides his/her fjordhorse in a pelham, and does do correctly, who gives a hoot? I would rather see a happy horse in a pelham than one hanging and gapping open mouthed in a snaffle. Guess what? I have a 6 yo mare who has nothing noticable or technically wrong w/ her mouth + palate, (even did a bit seat for her) but she is VERY sensitive and really dislikes the snaffle.Any broken mouthed snaffle. She is a champ in the bosal, and that is how i have been training her, espeically on her lateral work. Now would i be able to show her western in a bosal,? No, as she is 5+ years old. Do I think it sucks? Yes. But that's ok, I will proceed w/ her training and get her in the bridle. There is alot of refinement and subtlety w/ a bosal, and also the opposite if one needs it. Same goes in a curb bit. So why have some arbitrary rule that sticks blindly to pure dressage for our NFHR tests? Its NOT a dressage competion...Its a place to take a trained horse between the ages of 3-? and show the judges that said horse is capable of the tasks presented to him by the level of the NFHR test, not the USDF! I believe the test also is described as an 'English' test, so that being what it is, under english tack, a curb bit IS accepatble. So why is there this resistance? Some of you may not know or remember, but I was once a part of the original Eval comm. years ago, and this was one of the main concerns brought up during the design of the tests, that they NOt be over-technical, and be easy to interpret and execute by an average person who rides frequently, but be able to demonstrate the horses movement and trainability. If someone feels their horse is best shown in a Kimberwick over a snaffle in the Intro test, do it. Or a Pelham for the adv. tests. I have been out of the loop for a long time, but I feel the point that Pat and others have brought up is a very valid one and needs examining. Guess I have buried myself into a hole in the eyes of some of the purists out there, but oh well ;~) To each his own 'bit' - as long as the horse is happy, and the rider + horse are working as a team. Kmac Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevada
Re: Carol's DVD Evaluations, Excellent Idea!
This message is from: Starfire Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That being said, I would be curious as to why exactly we are seeing repeat scores for specific Fjords. Is this occurring because the owner/breeder is evaluating the animal as a yearling, 2 year old, then as a mature horse? Sometimes, yes. In Norway they look at the youngstock at the regional shows, then look at the stallions as 3 year olds, take them into the stallion testing at 4 years old and re-evaluate them (including the criteria of the quality of their offspring) at 8 years old. In our experience, we had Obelisk evaluated as a three year old. At that time, the evaluators said that he was from a line that was known to mature at a later age and that they would appreciate seeing him again in the future. He received an overall score of 79 at that evaluation. The following year I wanted to begin his performance testing, so took him again. He had matured greatly during that year (he had grown a full inch in height!) and had filled out in his body, so, (with the idea of being in keeping with the Norwegian system) I entered him again in the conformation as well as the performance. At that evaluation, he received an overall score of 83.5 (and earned his Silver Medallion level 1.) A few years later, I felt he was ready to tackle the Advanced performance tests, so went ahead and entered him in the conformation again. Mostly out of curiousity, since the two evaluators for this evaluation were the same who had seen him as a three year old, plus, I believe in supporting the evaluation by entering horses. His overall score at this evaluation was lower than the second one, 1/2 point here and 1/2 point there. His walk was not as good that morning; he had sustained an injury to his, shall we say, private parts, from a mare one month prior to the evaluation (which ended up taking 6 months to completely heal - just so you don't feel sorry for him, my vet recommended exercise as the best way to help him heal) so he did not present in hand as well as before. Things can be different on a different day. In addition, two of his offspring (three year old mares) were presented at that evaluation. One earned a blue ribbon, the other a high red. He did go on to earn his Gold Medallion level one in performance. The only test left I would like to complete with him is the Advanced Western. Not for any other reason than my own self satisfaction. Was I disappointed? No. Was the outcome as I had expected, yes. Or is this because the mature horse did not recieve the coveted BLUE and therefore, keeps on evaluating until this happens? I hope that the implication here is not that, if you keep bringing your horse back you will receive a blue ribbon in the conformation category. It's not true. If you look at the Record Books, you will see that there are repeat horses that started out in a particular ribbon color (if you will) and have stayed there. There are some that have increased their scores and there are some who's scores have decreased. ...the evaluation system as it stands now does not evaluate for one of the trademarks of the breed-DISPOSITION. If you are striclty speaking about the Conformation evaluation, this is true. If you are including the performance tests along with the conformation tests, I beg to differ. The score categories of the performance tests include Submission, which factors in Attentiveness, Confidence, Obedience, Stability and Willingness to Work (these criteria are listed as guidelines withing the scoring category.) These factors DO show as observable criteria during a performance test. As an evaluator, one has to ask oneself if some of the behavior might be due to rider/pilot experience and skill, or environmental stimuli, or otherwise. One question to try to answer is whether the SYSTEM allows for evaluation of the Genetic Potential for the horses to be the kind horses that we desire as Fjord horses. As far as a single horse is concerned, I believe that the introductory tests show this potential the best, in the case of young horses (say, a 4 to 6 year old.) If one is looking at the prospect of a single individual affecting the performance aspects of the entire breed, one test, or set of tests (completed by one horse) is not going to entirely give you this information. It will take a number of tests, performed by a number of related offspring, to tell one more about the disposition and performance potential for a particular line of horses. As Ruthie, said, our system is very young, so we, at this point, don't have as much information to fall back upon as, say, the Norwegians might have at this time, within the NFHR evaluation system. However, we DO have anecdotal information, or information documented with the NFHR in the form of the other awards offered, regarding Fjord horses that have been used as performance horses, or demonstration
Re: (was I'm impressed) Evaluations funtion is....
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that the most important function of an evaluation is education. Therefore, I think it important that people who won't be able to have their horses evaluated, who are breeding horses, at least make an attempt to educate themselves about good conformation and movement in order to include this information in their selection criteria for breeding matches. Beth / Starfire Farm YES, YES, YES 100%!!! KMac Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees
Carol's DVD Evaluations, Excellent Idea!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello to everyone, I think Carol has an excellent idea that should be explored thoroughly. There are numerous reasons why, all of which have already been discussed. That being said, I would be curious as to why exactly we are seeing repeat scores for specific Fjords. Is this occurring because the owner/breeder is evaluating the animal as a yearling, 2 year old, then as a mature horse? Or is this because the mature horse did not recieve the coveted BLUE and therefore, keeps on evaluating until this happens? Regardless of the reason, it is a fallacy to indicate that only evaluated high scoring Fjords are good choices for breeding prospects because the evaluation system as it stands now does not evaluate for one of the trademarks of the breed-DISPOSITION. Without a good disposition, the BLUE means absolutely nothing when preserving the breed. Carol's idea of a DVD type of evaluation could open the doors to allowing this important facet of the Fjord breed type to be observed. More time could be spent on the DVD, therefore giving the evaluators more time to ascertain temperament. I also firmly believe that most reputable Fjord breeds DO educate themselves thoroughly before breeding. To assume otherwise is ludicrous for we have some outstanding Fjords in this country, all due to the careful and meticulous breeding practices of Fjord breeders, regardless if they attend NFHR evaluations or not. Lynda In a message dated 2/8/2006 5:35:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that the most important function of an evaluation is education. Therefore, I think it important that people who won't be able to have their horses evaluated, who are breeding horses, at least make an attempt to educate themselves about good conformation and movement in order to include this information in their selection criteria for breeding matches. Beth / Starfire Farm YES, YES, YES 100%!!! KMac Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Thanks much, references are available. Lynda and Daniel Bailey's White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/index.html
Re:DVD Evaluations
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia --- Karen, This discussion has been interesting with lots of informed, polite input. -- That is, up until now with your inflammatory comments. Regarding my comment about not likeing to trailer horses. -- I think it was obvious to most people that I was tallking about Arthur and I personally trailering horses, something we haven't done much of, and something I personally fret about. -- When we ship horses for customers, we use a PROFESSIONAL HAULER. Men who have big equipment, and who do this for a living. Regarding your comments about Beaver Dam Farm participating in Evaluations. -- No we haven't! Which is precisely why I'm interested in DVD Evaluations. -- We've never been able to go to an Evaluation because of DISTANCE, and the fact we run a seasonal business. Regarding your comment that our interest in DVD Evaluations might seem a bit self serving . . . Well, of course, it would be very self serving. DVD Evaluations would allow us to get all our horses evaluated, which if you understood the purpose of Evaluations, you'd know that's what it's all about. Regarding your comment that . . . doesn't it figure that this individual (me) could spare some time and expense . . . -- No, it doesn't figure! We work for a living. Now, hopefully, we can get back to the excellent discussion we've been having. -- And whether or not my idea of DVD Evaluations ever comes about, it seems to me that valid, workable ideas have surfaced that will likely prove beneficial to the Registry and to the breed as well. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with Lori about the huge problems of video in virtual evaluations. I think there is way too much ability for the camera to lie. The other aspect of evaluations is that it is NOT just conformation. There are performance tests for the medallions of quality. It would be nice to keep taping and taping and taping until I got a performance test I really liked! I also raise warmbloods as well as Fjords. In my warmblood registries, the foals must be inspected prior to their yearling year and again at age 3 or older if being used for breeding stock. (I'm glossing over some fine points, but essentially, you HAVE to get inspected or not get papers.) Every year there are warmblood inspections all over the US. Most registries will have several of them in a state. Schedules are posted in advance so you can plan on which evaluation to attend. There are no video evaluations allowed -- you have to show up with the horse. For some breeders, that means some serious traveling. I do understand the problems we have with our current evaluation system. We need to have more of them throughout the country every year. However, as someone who has been on the host committee for the Virginia 2001 and 2004 evaluations, I can tell you that there is huge pressure from the NFHR not to lose money on an evaluation because of low attendance. The 2001 Virginia evaluation was held ONLY because several of us breeders pledged to pay any shortfalls. I believe that the 2005 CA evaluation had to do the same thing, but that's secondhand knowledge. I know that one evaluation was canceled in the last few years because the sign-up was low. Personally, I think the NFHR should hold more evaluations annually. The past delivery system seemed to resemble a Brigadoon model, with evaluations appearing and disappearing into the mists of time. I do think it is getting better. This year, I think I am taking our stallion to the Massachusetts evaluation for his conformation and intro tests. I'll probably send another Fjord with him simply because there is room on the trailer. It's not going to be convenient or cheap, but that's the closest evaluation that works with my schedule. Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 http://ironwood-farm.com ***Fjords for sale: 2002 Brown Dun Mare, 2004 Grey Dun and Brown Dun Geldings, 2005 Red Dun Colt***
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie, I rarely enter into these comments about stallions, breeding etc. But I agree with you re foals and cite my Charley as an example. He was huge and the mare was a maiden. We had a struggle to get him out as she pushed. Because of his size his right legs were windswept and he was down on his hind pasterns. I can visualize a picture of him as a foal!! Yet he grew straight and went on to succeed in dressage until an injury sidelined him. Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I personally like the idea of virtual evals, however if a foal is evaluated as a weanling, it should absolutely be evaluated again when it is older. Speaking from experience, weanlings can be perfect, and then change as they grow... I assume the opposite could also be true, but I don't have personal experience with that. In any case, I'm all for the betterment of the breed. Because of that I would have all three of mine evaluated - even [especially] the two that would score poorly. It's hard to not allow emotions into the equation, and I certainly don't want to hurt the breeder, but the fact of the matter is, knowing as much as possible - the good and the bad - about what stallions and mares produce is what's best for the breed. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Video Evaluations
This message is from: CHERYL GARNICA [EMAIL PROTECTED] RE: Video eval: Certain aspects sound attractive. Lori made some good points. In person, could be the best or worst 15 minutes of your life showing your horse. If video, might turn into a bigtime screen production with airbrushing, retakes, big time editing. Probably either way may not be true picture of horse on daily basis, yet harder to hide faults in person I would think. Saw part of the Fallbrook evals. It was great to meet owners, see all the different fjords in person and watch the process. Also a nice way to introduce fjords to newbies...wouldn't that be missed if judging process went Hollywood??Might consider eval down the road for my (backyard!) gelding just for fun, but would want it in person with everyone's encouragement for our presentation jitters. Cheryl in S. Cal --- Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] The video evaluation idea has a certain allure for helping to deal with the realities of our geography. However, I think it is hard to get a true picture of a horse from a video. I will use videos to help me decide whether I want to go see a horse, but rarely to make a final decision on it, unless a trusted advisor of mine has also seen the horse in person. Steven Wolgemuth, US long-listed dressage rider, who now helps people find dressage horses domestically and overseas, had this to say about evaluating a horse from a video in a recent article in Dressge Today magazine: Be careful not to judge a horse too harshly when trying to evaluate his overall quality. Videos can be the enemy of great horses and a friend to poor-quality horses. They can make great horses look just a bit better than average and bad horses look just a bit worse than average. Before I read this article, I had already noticed this averagizing effect of the technology, both in making a great one appear more average and a not-so-good one appear OK, so it was interesting to have this observation confirmed. The other thing that video can do is make a moment appear to sum up a horse. The video viewer is missing a lot of context, but can only judge what he is seeing, whether or not it is an accurate reflection of the true animal. As Wolgemuth says, A videotape can make a good or bad moment more real than it truly is. ... A horses unfortunate mistake, wrong step or brilliant moment is not a trusted normality, even if a video captured it. Wolgemuth uses this anecdote to illustrate how much presentation can influence perception of the horse, I recently reviewed a video of a beautiful, refined, light bay gelding with long legs and light, lovely, sweeping gaits. He was being ridden in white polo wraps on a sunny day in perfect footing in a beautiful outdoor arena. Moments later, the tape switched to a dark brown, chubby, short-legged, average-moving horse. To my surprise, it turned out to be the same horse. The second part of the tape was filmed under poor lighting in deeper, wet footing and the horse had no leg wraps. The difference was incredible. I was again reminded how the camera can radically distort reality. My experience is that being there allows the person who is evaluating the horse to form a much more balanced and realistic picture of the true animal. I already believe that there is no way that 15 minutes on the triangle can sum up the value of a horse, but can only give us one more data-point about him. I would certainly not give even that much credence to an evaluation that was purely virtual. The free-lunging vs in-hand gait analysis definitely presents another important viewpoint, though live-in-person would be my preference. (The free-lunging was one of my favorite /most-useful-to-me parts of the Norwegian stallion evaluation) Is a virtual evaluation better than nothing? Probably as an educational tool, yes, but let's not make it into something more than it can ever be. Lori Albrough Moorefield Ontario
Video Evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] The video evaluation idea has a certain allure for helping to deal with the realities of our geography. However, I think it is hard to get a true picture of a horse from a video. I will use videos to help me decide whether I want to go see a horse, but rarely to make a final decision on it, unless a trusted advisor of mine has also seen the horse in person. Steven Wolgemuth, US long-listed dressage rider, who now helps people find dressage horses domestically and overseas, had this to say about evaluating a horse from a video in a recent article in Dressge Today magazine: Be careful not to judge a horse too harshly when trying to evaluate his overall quality. Videos can be the enemy of great horses and a friend to poor-quality horses. They can make great horses look just a bit better than average and bad horses look just a bit worse than average. Before I read this article, I had already noticed this averagizing effect of the technology, both in making a great one appear more average and a not-so-good one appear OK, so it was interesting to have this observation confirmed. The other thing that video can do is make a moment appear to sum up a horse. The video viewer is missing a lot of context, but can only judge what he is seeing, whether or not it is an accurate reflection of the true animal. As Wolgemuth says, A videotape can make a good or bad moment more real than it truly is. ... A horse’s unfortunate mistake, wrong step or brilliant moment is not a trusted normality, even if a video captured it. Wolgemuth uses this anecdote to illustrate how much presentation can influence perception of the horse, I recently reviewed a video of a beautiful, refined, light bay gelding with long legs and light, lovely, sweeping gaits. He was being ridden in white polo wraps on a sunny day in perfect footing in a beautiful outdoor arena. Moments later, the tape switched to a dark brown, chubby, short-legged, average-moving horse. To my surprise, it turned out to be the same horse. The second part of the tape was filmed under poor lighting in deeper, wet footing and the horse had no leg wraps. The difference was incredible. I was again reminded how the camera can radically distort reality. My experience is that being there allows the person who is evaluating the horse to form a much more balanced and realistic picture of the true animal. I already believe that there is no way that 15 minutes on the triangle can sum up the value of a horse, but can only give us one more data-point about him. I would certainly not give even that much credence to an evaluation that was purely virtual. The free-lunging vs in-hand gait analysis definitely presents another important viewpoint, though live-in-person would be my preference. (The free-lunging was one of my favorite /most-useful-to-me parts of the Norwegian stallion evaluation) Is a virtual evaluation better than nothing? Probably as an educational tool, yes, but let's not make it into something more than it can ever be. Lori Albrough Moorefield Ontario
RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\) [EMAIL PROTECTED] What would be interresting, is to have some that are video evaluated, also evaluated live to see how similar the results were. I also think that it is a good idea. I think it would be of the best interest of the breed for the NFHR to invest in making a professional quality dvd of some actual evaluations and all the steps necessary for the video evaluation, etc. We could purchase a dvd if we would like to do these types of evaluations. Then of course, there would be a fee to actually get them evaluated, going to the evaluators and a small fee to the NFHR. Once you have the dvd, you wouldn't need to send it out with every evaluation package. All comments about movement, physical characteristics, breed standard, etc would be given by a professional evaluator and not the possible biased comments of any breeder, etc of the horses in the dvd. It would also be nice to see some examples of good conformation and movement, as well as not so desirable conformation and movement characteristics and told why they are good or not. It would even be nice to have a dvd like this even if we didn't evaluate, just so we could better judge our own horses. I don't know how many people actually have dvd video camera recorders, there are ways to take them from your 8mm or vhs recorder and tape them to a dvd recorder though. More high tech gadgets and toys!! Just my 2cents. Mark Skeels in Helena Montana
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: Warren Stockwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I Know that Parelli has some training done this way with their up and coming trainers. May be the wrong wordage but you get the idea. I bet somke good ideas could come from looking into that? Roberta
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Everybody from Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- Arthur and I were sitting in front of the wood stove having our afternoon chai - which is something that's become a habit this winter. -- I started to tell him about my idea of Virtual Evaluations, and much to my surprise (because he really is an old cumudgeon), he thought it was a great idea. == Even Brilliant == He remembers about 26 years ago, when Bob van Bon told everybody at the Woodstock, VT show (and first U.S. Evaluation) that the most important thing we can do in North America is to identify and inspect our foals. -- Well, for some years now, the NFHR has required identification in order to register. First it was bloodtyping, and now DNA. -- That's a big step! -- But, there's never been a real attempt at Inspections. -- Yes, there are Evaluations at some places across the country, but think about it . . . . How many people bring foals? -- And isn't it the foals that need inspection the most? -- Van Bon thought so! Anyway, I really was surprised that Arthur didn't pick my idea to pieces, which is his wont. -- But, he didn't. He thought it a very workable project. We were talkling a little bit about the possible logistics. (Please remember that I said possible). -- Arthur thought the whole thing very workable. * The horse owner would apply to the Registry to do Virtual Evaluations on his own property. * He would be sent applications for each horse * He would also be sent instructions on exactly how he must present each horse for the camera. These could either be written or on a DVD. * A veterinarian would be required to be on site during the filming. The vet would certify that the horse's teeth were correct and also the genitals for males and females. -- He wouldn't have to stay after that part was done. * The inspection (evaluation) would go exactly as it's done in a live Evaluation - with the exception that the gaits would be judged in free lunging. * Three copies of the inspection on DVD would be mailed to ??? Probably the head of the Evaluation Committee -- or, to the NFHR. * Three judges would judge and record their scores and comments. * The scores would be averaged. * The scores would be communicated to the owner, and recorded in The Record Book -- just as in a live Evlaution. But, with a notation that it was a Virtual Evaluation. += I see this mostly for conformation and gait evaluation, which to me, is the most important -- + The advantages of Virtual Evaluations is that owners could get all their youngstock evaluated. This would enable them to make important decisions in a timely manner. -- Decisions like - to geld or not to geld. -- To keep a filly for breeding, or to sell to a performance home. -- Decisions like - Was this a good cross (mare stallion) or not? -- Sometimes a judge will tell you not to ever breed that mare to the same stallion. Or, the opposite. I hope other breeders and owners see the simplicity and value in this idea, and will back it by notifying the Board of Directors. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html .
Re: DVD/Video Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I really likethe idea of video/DVD evaluations. It levels the playing field. It is expensive to get to the evaluations. I have a friend who brought a young Rocky Mountain Horse. She had to make video of her horse after she got her trained, that showed the horse being saddled, mounted and ridden at all gaits. Alison Bakken in sunny Alberta where winter hasn't arrived
Re: DVD/Video Evaluations
This message is from: Olivia Farm, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone from Olivia Farm, Personally, we like the idea of DVD/Video evaluations. And we like even more the idea of adding free longeing to the evaluations. We have been talking for quite a while about the fact that our evaluators are pretty efficient at judging conformation and the movement they are shown, but that so often they are not shown the full potential of the horses movement. Free longeing would definitely help that out. But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. I'm not saying that we shouldn't consider it as an option. The more horses evaluated, the better feel we have for individual horses, bloodlines, and the breed as a whole. We are all for having more horses evaluated. However, we have to take into consideration that the problems with handling horses (one of the biggest issues in getting the fairest evaluation possible) wouldn't go away by allowing for video evaluations. On another point - I have been a sheep and livestock judge for some years now, and I'm here to tell you that just because the identity is kept secret or the handler changes doesn't mean the judge or evaluator doesn't know where the animal came from. You are never going to get around that issue. You just have to hope that the evaluators are being as impartial as they can be. Just some more food for thought, Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm (509) 258-7348 www.oliviafarm.com
re: bloodlines, evaluations, etc
This message is from: bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I thought I'd better clarify what I meant in the paragraph below What I DID NOT mean is that Evaluators might be influenced by knowing who the owner or trainer of a particular stallion is. -- ... Carol That would not have been an unreasonable inference at all, apparently those who crafted the Judge's Rule Book for the NFHR did think that special interests, and/or conflict of interest, might very well be a valid consideration in a judge's qualification. Maybe we should periodically check them out? These taken from the NFHR Judge's Rule Book. CODE OF CONDUCT GOVERNING JUDGES -O- no judge may be a house guest of any exhibitor at shows they are about to judge. -O- a judge may not be an owner of ANY INTEREST in a horse at a show he/she is officiating. He/she may not be an exhibitor, rider, driver, halter handler at a show he/she is officiating. -O- a judge may not have ANY financial horse RELATED transactions such as: sale, boarding, TRAINING, or acting as an AGENT on any transaction, unless concluded 90 days prior to the show. -O- no member of the judges family, TRAINER, or TRAINER'S CLIENTS may show before said judge. -O- if a horse is presented to a judge by a person the judge knows is ineligible to compete under these rules, the judge must advise show committee and ask that the entry be excused. +++ Because we are a comparatively small breed society and often there is considerable multi-tasking by a minority, it follows that these ethical conduct guidelines are an essential mandate for fair and equal representation. Ruthie, NW MT US
Re: bloodlines, Evaluations, etc.
This message is from: Beaver Dam Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia --- I thought I'd better clarify what I meant in the paragraph below What I DID NOT mean is that Evaluators might be influenced by knowing who the owner or trainer of a particular stallion is. -- What I did mean is that,( in my opinion) a stallion is perceived by the general Fjord public as being as -- illustrious/worthy/great (or not)--- as is the owner or the trainer of that particular stallion. Hope I've made myself clearer this time. I was talking about the general perception --- I was NOT talking about evaluators being influenced in any shape or form. Regards, Carol Rivoire The other problem I have with who determines which stallions are the good ones, is this --- I think that WAY TOO OFTEN, it's the owner who's being judged and not the stallion. More specifically, the owner's persona (personality). -- It has always seemed to me that if a stallion is owned by a very personable person then he's considered a terrific stallion. -- This is definitely not the way it should be done. -- Also, a stallion's quality should not be based on his performance record. --- A GELDING'S VALUE IS BASED ON HIS PERFORMANCE RECORD --- THIS I FIRMLY BELIEVE . . . . . That the ONLY way to determine the worth of a breeding stallion is by studying his offspring. It does not matter A WHIT whether or not he's a gorgeous, sweet animal that's touted by the best known breeder or trainer in the business. It doesn't matter at all how nice that stallion is or who owns or trains him . . . Nothing matters if that stallion doesn't produce offspring that are . . . . SOUND --- HEALTHY -- CONFORMATIONALLY CORRECT IN ALL RESPECTS --- THLETIC -- NORMAL SIZE (height substance) --- WILLING -- CONFIDENT --- GOOD MOVERS -- REPRODUCTIVELY SOUND -- CONFORM TO BREED TYPE --- issue number.
White markings in Norway evaluations
This message is from: Dagrun Aarsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] As far as white markings, do the horses get marked down if the white mark is due to a wound. I have one that had a bad wound around the ankle and the hair that grew back has a few white areas or tufts. Mark Skeels Hi Mark, White marks due to an old wound are accepted. However, you need to get a vet record at the time of injury and keep this with your horse's papers as proof. Dagrun
Re: Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: Warren Stockwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] YEAH!!! From the Markus fan club in Minnesota Go Linda!! Roberta - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Geldings and evaluations This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi; Just to let you know they did an evaluation in West Salem Wisconsin 08/06-08/07 and Linda Syverson-Kerr had her gelding evaluated Spruce Hill Markus and he received seven blues along with a silver medallion and a gold medallion and this was done in this lone evaluation. I can't explain how proud I was that day being she is my wife and Markus is like one of the family. Proud Husband
Fjord Evaluations and Horse shows
This message is from: Norsk Wood Works [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from Phillip Odden The summer is racing by. I am sure the stark realization has hit many folks. For those with children, school will soon be starting again. For those of us in the Northern regions, where we now have a break in the hot weather, the cool temps and shorter days remind us that the season of white will be arriving in no time. The fjord Horse show at Blue Earth is fading in the distance and the memories of the Evaluation at La Crosse will soon reach the same perspective that passing time seems give. We have snap shot photos, some ribbons if we were lucky, and conversations with our fjord neighbors and friends to recall what happened and didn't happen. Before I forget all together I wanted to share a few of my thoughts regarding the Blue Earth show and the evaluation. I participated in each of the events. My horses did quite well and I was pleased. There were situations where I wished they had done better. In those instances perhaps the judge didn't notice what I thought was apparent to me in my horse's performance. Or, more likely, perhaps what I thought was happening in the positive just wasn't there. I suspect the later is closer to the truth and I am willing to accept the results vowing to REALLY SHOW THEM the next time. It is not my intention to shine the light on my stock in this post. Mr. Wayne Hipsley judged the Blue Earth show and he and Mr. Pat Wolfe were the evaluators at the La Crosse evaluation. This year the competition was tougher than ever before at Blue Earth. The classes were large and horses were better trained. The quality of the horses coming to the show is getting much better. The same is true for the evaluation at La Crosse. Where as at the horse show the horses present are judged one against the others be it in halter or in performance. If the class is judged on the handler the classes are placed with regards to how each handler stacks up against the others in the class. At the evaluation the horses are judged against a breed standard both in conformation and performance. You know what the evaluator will be looking for because you can study the judge's evaluation form in advance. They use the same one at each evaluation. The handler is not judged but the handler must show the evaluator the quality of the horse and what the horse can do. At times the evaluator can excuse a miscue for pilot error. However they can not judge what they can't see. They don't give marks for potential, just what they see that day at that time. Our fjord people are getting better at showing their animals at the evaluation. The quality of the horses is getting better. This may be because the quality of the horses is increasing in this country. It also might be that folks are learning about quality in fjord horses and only bringing those that will do well. Certainly people are learning to show them better. On a personal note. Both the horses I brought to the evaluation received a score 80 or over. I chose those horses because I was quite confident they were horses of quality having spent a good deal of time learning to understand what the breed standard is. I also did my best to show the horses to the judge. I kept them awake looking bright, they were groomed nicely, and I did my best to get them to walk out and trot big. I could have done better had I warmed them up prior to going into the ring. Next time I will warm them up better. At the evaluation we want every one to receive the best scores they deserve on their animals. We are not competing against one another. We are competing against a breed standard. There are no secrets here. If you are unsure of what is expected ask someone who knows. Ask your clubs to arrange for evaluation clinics. There were several very good tests at La Crosse but the tests done by John Gurtner with Linda Syverson Kerr's horse Markus were a tour de' force in the fjord world. I know Markus, John and Linda very well. John is my horse mentor and coach, Linda and I are friends and show together. Markus has won the versatility award at Blue Earth the past two years. The interesting thing is that Markus did get a score of 80 or above in the conformation test and 80 or above in three introductory and three advanced tests at La Crosse but there were several horses there that had more potential for movement, impulsion, and better gates than Markus. Markus was very well trained and John knew how to get the most out of him. I always wonder what could be possible in the fjord world given a fjord with a fuller bag of tools to start with. Which brings me to form and function. It was apparent to me that Mr. Hipsley was using three main criteria in his choices at Blue Earth. He stated it several times. In the performance classes he was looking for a well trained horse that could move well in proper frame. In the halter classes he was looking for good fjord type, (that is, what makes a fjord a fjord
Re: Geldings and evaluations - Congrats!!!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WOW!!! Linda and Markus did amazing work at the evaluation! I'll bet your whole clan is proud and Markus has probably earned carrots for life! Although, since you guys already loved him, I'm sure he had the carrot guarantee sewn up anyway! YEA Geldings!! Kay Van Natta and Braveheart, another carrot recipient and Clementine, who thinks he's overpaid
Re: Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi; Just to let you know they did an evaluation in West Salem Wisconsin 08/06-08/07 and Linda Syverson-Kerr had her gelding evaluated Spruce Hill Markus and he received seven blues along with a silver medallion and a gold medallion and this was done in this lone evaluation. I can't explain how proud I was that day being she is my wife and Markus is like one of the family. Proud Husband
Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: M Korose [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes You can take geldings and be in an evaluation. I would think that an owner would want to do this because: 1) they have fun showing the horse in various disciplines and he is good at it 2) they wish to stay involved and active in Fjord events 3) a good score for a gelding assists the record for a good sire/dam I would suggest that the owner attend an evaluation or two and see just what is involved (costs, equipment, level of experience involved, atmosphere of the event, etc. I am not sure, but I believe a horse must have a conformation evaluation in order to be eligble for a medallion with the performance tests, I think that one could enter the performance tests only and get scores, but a medallion also includes a conformation test. Anyway, go find an evaluation (in your half of the country!) and test drive the situation before. Marsha Owner of Caribu the wonder Fjord, blue ribbon gelding with a silver medallion in Intro performance. NE Versatility champ also. Now earning his oats at Morven Park Equestrian center with a 68 year old driver/rider career number 3? or4? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: snafflesnshelties [EMAIL PROTECTED] That tells me that the Fjord owner/breeders are educating themselves about what is a good quality Fjord horse. I have only visited one fjord breeder. I did not see any horse there that was not a stunning animal. I saw beautiful profiles, great bone, and the one I took home... had wonderful eyes!! adorable face! Usually when I have visited other breeds homes... I can always pick out a horse with either a terrible rear... awful front legs... or ugly head I found it so interesting at the fjord stable... they were all so similar ... and so well handled and cared for Joyce
Evaluations
This message is from: Ron Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, All the talk about the Evaluation program has started me thinking. Whether you believe in the Evaluation system or not it seems to be working. I believe this because I've heard people like Wayne Hipsley say at Libby that the overall quality of the Fjord Horses that he sees is better then it was 10 years ago. I'm sure that the same is true for the other shows and evaluations. That tells me that the Fjord owner/breeders are educating themselves about what is a good quality Fjord horse. Part of that learning process has been due to them attending Evaluations. Even if you don't bring horses to be evaluated you learn from the experience. The comments at the end of the day by the Senior Evaluator are very educational. To keep the gene pool large but continue to breed inferior quality stallions and mares is not doing this breed any favors. Yes you'll have more genetic diversity but it will be of lower quality over all. That is what has happened in other breeds, the overall quality of the breeds has deteriorated. I have friends that breed other horses and when I tell them about our Evaluation program any number of them have said I wish our Registry had something like that. This country is so large that you end up with pockets of the same bloodlines in one area. We have a lot of good stallions in this country but they're spread out so far. I wish there were a program where East coast and West coast stallion owners could swap stallions for a couple of years or so. That would introduce different bloodlines and create more genetic diversity and would also alleviate the shrinking of the gene pool but maintain the quality. Our system is not perfect but it's the best thing going. I have found over the years that the owner/breeders for the most part really want to protect this breed. Our Registry and those that have worked so hard to put this program in place are to be applauded. It will continue to be a work in process and get better and better and as a result our horses will get better and better. Just my two cents worth. Sherrie Sunwood Fjords [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Evaluations and other things
This message is from: Ron Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, I guess I missed something, I don't remember ever hearing or reading that having stallions or mares evaluated would lead to a shrinking of the gene pool. If the information from the evaluated horses is used as an Educational tool it will only strengthen the breed as a whole. Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Finally, thanks to all of you that have sent in your stuff for our book, we still need many more pages from those of you that had responded so we're going to extend the deadline to Dec 31, 2005. We have a publisher lined up and are trying to keep the cost down to under 20.00. Farms that send in their pages will bet a discount. Thanks to Beth and Sandy for taking on the job of Newsletter Editors. I know that they'll do a good job. Sherrie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations and other things
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 05:36 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: This message is from: Ron Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Sure - See if you can find some Bee sized life rings for them to get on when they get tired so they don't drown. ;-) === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: Ruth Bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Mariposa Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] It was I who brought up the subject of Stallion Evaluations in America. It was more of an educational goal for our stallion owners. What I wanted to accomplish by this is that all stallion owners would know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective stallions. ...and I felt that more knowledge was better. Thank you for responding to it and starting some dialogue - good thing someone reads the minutes! Mark Oh. ..because the 'm' on member was small I assumed it was a Fjord individual membership person, not an NFHR BOD Member. I appreciate you clarifying your identity and intention, Mark, also your fair-minded and pleasant exchange, thank you. I commend your efforts for what you must feel is a noble endeavor. Educational goals are worthy motive, and I too can see the merit in conformational assessments, but when you add graded ribbons to the mix, emphasis on preferred stallions by promotion of evaluation high score-ranking.. you definitely have the potential for over-selection. People are schooled from youth up to aim for ribbons. As the present evaluating system stands, it is mainly those who have time and money who participate--not necessarily the best breeding candidate who may have stayed home. Of the two choices, the majority of folks will select that blue-ribboned stud even though the unevaluated stud could have better intrinsic allele value.. so whether or not evaluations are forced it is aside from the issue of diversity, as over-selection comes about through promotional marketing and a misguided emphasis as well. I am concerned that the conveyance, conformational evaluating, is evolving into an unwavering pride-laden momentum of its own, extraneous of the FJ breed's welfare. Ribbons fade, trophies tarnish, glory passes --but the breed must continue forever and it is diversity, not concentration, that allows for the survival of a species. I don't agree that this is a simple matter, in truth it is very complex, that's where professional genetic counsel comes in. The key component on this issue is flexibility... an openness for innovative ways and means of upgrading the long-range welfare of the Fjordhorse as a whole breed, and not just favoring an elite few for profit and glamour. Inclusionary instead of exclusionary. In reference to traditional Norwegian breeding practices, there are presently those Norwegians searching out this very issue of breed diversity in the Fjordhorse as well. Here is one site from the Norwegian Ministry of Agriculture, (Nordic Gene Bank Farm Animals) in which Fjords are mentioned. A conclusion statement, pg 4 under horses, states, Considerable changes must be made in modern breeding programs in order to optimize the programs by placing more emphasis on inbreeding and kinship. The long-term negative effect of the extensive use of a limited number of sires is shown to be significantly greater than found in previous studies and models. The conclusion is that significant aspects of breeding strategies need to be changed in order to obtain optimized breeding programs. http://www.nordgen.org/english/projects/ngh-projects.htm Ruthie, nw mt US
Re: Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think one of the aggravating things about all stallions evaluated is the control issue. We are under so many rules and regulations from our Govt. to get us all in narrow line that not only is the evaluation of all stallions not possible but would no more control the get unless you evaluated all the brood mares and even then don't we always wait for the birth to see what we got? Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: Mariposa Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Ruth, It was I who brought up the subject of Stallion Evaluations in America. (Which I'm sure you know is being done in a similar fashion in European countries, and has been for quite some time). It was not my intent to have our gene pool shrunk and creating a situation where only the best are bred to the best. It was more of an educational goal for our stallion owners. My very informal proposal did not include a score that they had to make or any licensing involved. What I wanted to accomplish by this is that all stallion owners would know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective stallions. Most Stallions in this country breed very few mares each year and they are usually the owner's herd. That stallion has a huge impact on their breeding program and I felt that more knowledge was better. I don't think we have a problem with only a few stallions breeding the mares of North America. I also knew that my proposal would never fly this time around but I wanted to get the idea in peoples head that this is a direction we should be heading. Thank you for responding to it and starting some dialogue - good thing someone reads the minutes! Mark McGinley NFHR Director Mariposa Farm Washburn, WI
misunderstanding ? Evaluations
This message is from: Catherine lassesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie, I am afraid that you misunderstood what I meant by selecting a stallion from The Record Book. The Record Book now gives a mare owner the material in their hands to evaluate the right stallion for their particular mare. Breeding is finding the right MATCH... I breed to other stallion with our mares because I am looking for the right MATCH for my mares. I want IMPROVEMENT from my breeding. I want to take two Reds and make a Blue and I have done just that with our breed program here at our farm. I did not say that EVERYONE should breed to Blue stallions... I am saying that now that scores on some of the stallions registered in the registry are public, the pubic can be more educated in selecting a stallion for their mare. There may be better stallions out there but until the owners get them evaluated, the public can only go by their own knowledge. The Record Book is just one more TOOL to help the mare owner decide on a date for their mare. As I have spoken before and have written about in articles. If a stallion has a weak hind end you do not want to breed your mare to him if she has a weak hind end also. It is all about making the right match and The Record Book is a great way to begin your research. Going out to play with Fjordees, Catherine Lassesen Hestehaven = The Horse Garden Where we are enjoying our great Fjords... pairs, 4 up and foal training... never a dull day never the same day twice. Gotta love it.
RE: Trot race in Evaluations
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail, it was my experience that in the first ever sanctioned NFHR Eval I participated in, in Libby, Mt. they did have a section for this trot test. However, it was in 1990(?) sort of before the NFHR Eval system was implemented, (Pam McWethy was the organizer, Karen Cabic was there, as well as from the NFHR ??, and David Klove and Jon Hegdal were there to comment + assist as well). Much of it was improvised and wiged' on the spot, as it had never been done before, except in (Vermont?) There was a trotting test, however, it wasn't on a perfectly groomed track, and we were not putting to racing sulkies, but much heavier meadowbrooks and the like. I don't think anyone made the time - not surprising considering the conditions. I believe Brian Jensen, Chip Lamb and one other fellow participated along w/ myself, and Sven. Later on, when I was on the NFHR Eval commitee, I assisted in the design of an advanced driving test that consisted of a driven dressage portion, as well as more of a 'utility' test, with different obstacles and a portion that asks for a 'road trot' for about 3/4 around the arena - defintely not a timed element, but just to show the evaluators the ability of the horse to go up and down through the gears. I have always wondered why turning the horses out to be shown in the arena 'at liberty' has not been implemented into our NFHR eval system. With so many horses not able to show good movement due to the limitations of the handlers (either by under or over handling), I would think this would be a positive addition to our program. I could swear that i have seen this done on some tapes that the Jensen's shared from a trip to Norway + the stallion shows a few years back. I know other breed registries use this technique as well. Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Original Message Follows From: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Trot race in Evaluations Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:52:52 -0700 This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the end it is not about how fast they can trot anyway. The quality of the trot, Rhythm, regularity, elasticity, correctness, length, freedom, impulsion, and reach with the fronts, that counts. It just occurred to me that the NFHR evaluations may not have the ideal setup to judge the trot. Horses are trotted in handwhich...given the mature status of most owners and exhibitors...does not really give the horse a great opportunity to demonstrate their trotting ability. In Norway, they have the timed trot-test on a track. Though speed may not be all that important, a driven trot-test does allow evaluators to actually see the trot over an extended period of time, and without the handicap imposed by a less than athletic exhibitor. I would be interested to know whether there has ever been discussion in North American proposing introduction of a driven trot-test, or some other way of evaluating movement beyond the in-hand work, other than the performance testing? Gail
Re: Trot race in Evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail Russell wrote: In Norway, they have the timed trot-test on a track. Though speed may not be all that important, a driven trot-test does allow evaluators to actually see the trot over an extended period of time, and without the handicap imposed by a less than athletic exhibitor. I would be interested to know whether there has ever been discussion in North American proposing introduction of a driven trot-test, or some other way of evaluating movement beyond the in-hand work, other than the performance testing? Gail, in Norway in addition to the 1 km trot test on the track they also do a free-movement analysis where they free lunge the stallions in the indoor arena before the judges and spectators, and a free-jumping test down a jump chute. They definitely get a lot better look at the movement from a lot of different perspectives. Lori
Trot race in Evaluations
This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the end it is not about how fast they can trot anyway. The quality of the trot, Rhythm, regularity, elasticity, correctness, length, freedom, impulsion, and reach with the fronts, that counts. It just occurred to me that the NFHR evaluations may not have the ideal setup to judge the trot. Horses are trotted in handwhich...given the mature status of most owners and exhibitors...does not really give the horse a great opportunity to demonstrate their trotting ability. In Norway, they have the timed trot-test on a track. Though speed may not be all that important, a driven trot-test does allow evaluators to actually see the trot over an extended period of time, and without the handicap imposed by a less than athletic exhibitor. I would be interested to know whether there has ever been discussion in North American proposing introduction of a driven trot-test, or some other way of evaluating movement beyond the in-hand work, other than the performance testing? Gail
Re: Evaluations and stallion selection
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] starfirefarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arne Presthus even said, at the Libby 2001 evaluation, that Norway may need to look to America sometime in the future, to regain some of the draft qualities that may have been lost in the Norwegian bloodlines. Beth Interesting. I heard similar comments from David Klove, when he came to Libby for the Nordicfest show (and an informal evaluation) in 1988. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Evaluations
This message is from: Lauren Sellars [EMAIL PROTECTED] The list has been getting hot lately some need to lighten up don't take it all so seriously. The evaluations are a great idea. BUT How many blue ribbon fjords were once reds or yellows and some of them were told they should be gelded or not bred Proper feeding, and great trainers, perserverance, money some hob nobbing goes along way. Poof now they are blue ribbon stallions. Take it all with a grain of salt. Not every great fjord has rich enough owners to promote him / her to the best advantage. Some owners have all the time and money to do just that. Way to go ! We all benifit from the fjords that are trained and presented to the hilt. I love telling people about Ann Wez or Gayle Dusty. We are all winners whether it is the show ring, the mountain or our backyard. Our breed is gentle kind forgiving. lets learn from them. Go play Lauren
Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm reminded that all the recent hype about who has the best stallion is the reason the NFHR has an effective Evaluation Program. This Program is to determine a horse's comparison to the breed standard. The NFHR Record Book lists in detail the reasons WHY a Fjord is given a mathematical reading of X and then that Fjord can be compared to the breed standard in all details. If an owner is looking for specific qualities of a Fjord then the NFHR Evaluation shows what they need to know. To say a stallion, or gelding, or mare is the best or the fastest or has the best legs or hocks is generally a subjective statement. Show me these result in a NFHR Evaluation where the horse is pitted against the breed standard and I can then believe or disbelieve the claim. A Horse Show pits one horse against the others showing only in that class and the class may have only 2 horses. An Evaluation pits the horse against the breed standard. These objective results are what I want to see. In North America we have done a masterful job of developing a gene pool of quality Fjords in a few recent years. This has been accomplished by importing and breeding quality horses from several countries and the current quality of North American Fjords compares very favorably to many European countries. Without naming several top quality stallions in North America (or their owners). I can assure you that F H I (Fjord Horse International) is very respectful of the current quality of the Fjord Horse in North America and it will continue to improve as we expand our NFHR Evaluation Program. Respectfully, Alan Merrill
Evaluations And Fjord scores
This message is from: Ursula Brian Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Greetings from Brian Jensen; Firstly I must thank Phillip Odden for his fine articulate article on American Evaluations and European information. I believe this article is a keeper for time to come and should be put in the Fjord Herald for all to read.!!! Along with several other NFHR members the first Evaluation Committee was formed to develop an Evaluation Program for the Fjord in North America. My motivation for working on the first committee was as follows. Some well known breeders at that time were producing Fjords and providing their own set of standards to the interested public What began showing up for sale or breeding were ugly poorly put together Fjords with the owners blessing of how good they were. The second reason was that the Fjord seems to attract neophyte owners to the equine breed who were dying for information and education. became one of the main cornerstones of the Evaluation Program. There has always been a strong lobby amongst some members for even having an Evaluation Program in North America, and that will probably remain the case . Today we have a good Evaluation Program which is considered to be a work in progress. Changes are made on an ongoing basis to improve its educational qualities and provide a user friendly tool to owners and breeders who wish to learn and grow. In America there is freedom of choice. It is not mandatory for all owners to have their breeding stock tested or Evaluated. In Europe it is mandatory. One observation I can make is that members who participate in the Evaluation Program on the whole are respectful of the members who choose not to Evaluate. Some members who do not wish to Evaluate seem very unhappy with most anything the NFHR does. It is almost like they are after attention through negative advertising. The NFHR Evaluation Program provides education and averaged set of scores from two Evaluators in Conformation and Performance. When writing the Program we did look at putting temperament in with the Conformation score but decided that the Performance side was the correct place for temperament. After watching the Program work for several years I think the choice was the right one. All NFHR Evaluation scores are available in Record Book 1, and shortly will be available in Record Book 2. I must most sincerely thank Sandy North for her effort and hard work towards the publication of Record Book 2. Its volunteers like this who help bring the Fjord into its rightful place in North America. Brian Jensen Ursula Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC, V0E 2G0 Canada 250-547-6303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/
RE: NFHR Evaluations etc.
This message is from: Linda Lottie [EMAIL PROTECTED] The breed tends to attract many new owners who have no, or very little equine experience. Of course, people must begin somewhere, and I hope breeders and sellers take the time to educate a new owner with information, books, lessons, etc.. I see the no experience issue being a possible problem when a new owner, new to horses, gets into breeding without knowledge of the breed history, experience in diciplines, etc. .. not to mention the often talked about ground manners and general handling of fjords. When I bought my first fjord I was so fortunate..the owners wanted to help me as much as I needed. Then, a wonderful fjord owner offered to teach me to drive. Today I feel confident and safe driving my good ole' boy... JMHO Linda in MN From: Ursula Brian Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordlist fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: NFHR Evaluations etc. Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:29:48 -0700 This message is from: Ursula Brian Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear list from Brian Jensen; Thankyou Beth for your overview of what we as trainees went through on behalf of the Fjord Horse to become Evaluators. As part of the original committee that wrote the program some 12 years ago I can remember wanting 3 Evaluators at each Evaluation much like the Europeans in European FHI countries. It was, and still is not financially feasible here in North America because of distance and time constraints. The Program itself is not like the European Programs. Firstly it is voluntary as not all American members want or believe in Evaluations. Secondly, the owner/breeders of Fjords in North America have a shorter time window with the Fjord experience. The breed tends to attract many new owners who have no, or very little equine experience. The Performance part of the Evaluation addresses that by providing steps in Riding/Driving/Draft whereby owners can come at a basic level---have a try---go home and practice more for the next level. For those of you who were around with Fjords 12-15 years ago there has been a tremendous improvement in all the disciplines of Performance over that period of time. The other portion of the Evaluation Program is the Education component called Pre-Evaluation Clinics held around the country each year usually before the summer season. At these clinics the presenters use handouts, overheads, videos, and real Fjords to watch and Evaluate. The Education provided by the Evaluators at the venue in talking about the individual Fjords and providing feedback on the scoresheets is an invaluable tool in improving your breeding program or your Performance. I think someone on the list mentioned the possibility of Evaluators having barn blindness. If that were the case the person should not be an Evaluator. However, at times there are some owner/breeders who have not looked at their stock from an objective critical eye point of view. They have been very upset with the scores received. I think the Evaluators to date have handled these situations in an ethical-fair and respectful manner. The Evaluation Committee has been working on a Draft of Ethics for NFHR Evaluators to update and improve the original Evaluator Ethics guidelines. Its my opinion on seeing this draft that it is possibly the tightest and most stringent set of ethics ever compiled. Having these Digest discussions in an open/honest and respectful way is one more way of addressing the concerns/false assumptions/fears that members may have. I do believe the NFHR BOD, and the Evaluation Committee are open to questions or new ideas about this program. The Program will always be a Work In Progress so I see it only getting better over the coming years. Brian Jensen Ursula Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC, V0E 2G0 Canada 250-547-6303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide!
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:12 PM 8/30/2004, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, Do you think that if the NFHR held only one evaluation a year, say smack in the middle of the country that the amount of Fjords brought would be increased and therefore, more evaluators could attend? Sort of like one of the European evaluations? Lynda No I don't think so Lynda. That system seems to work on in countries where you can drive from one side to the other in a day. Some people drove over 18 hours to get to the one in La Crosse as it is. If we only had one - say in the middle of the country how many people could really travel that far? Sure the midwest would get there ok but what about the people from Maine, Florida, California, Montana, Vermont, the Carolinas etc? Talk about raising the price? Adding 3 or 4 extra days of travel to the formula makes it even worse than adding $30 per test as far as I am concerned. Transporting horses isn't cheap with todays fuel prices. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Evaluations - Beth Beymer's Comments
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I appreciated Beth taking the time discussing the evaluator training and selection with the List. I had the pleasure of meeting Beth briefly at the 2004 Virginia Evaluation and watching her work. Most of my experience with horse evaluations is with warmbloods. I can tell list members that with most of the warmblood breeds, you get two evaluators. They tend to be US or German breeders who have met the criteria for becoming an evaluator. These evaluations cost considerably more than a Fjord evaluation. I tend to look at Evaluations as just another form of a horse show. We all have had good days at horse shows and bad days at horse shows. You can always go back again if your initial result isn't to your liking. I think it is easy to criticize the judge at a horse show, particularly on judgments that are somewhat subjective. I have my own criticisms of the evaluation program on the administrative side, but I think we do have to accept that the evaluators are of a certain standards and the evaluation system is valid. If you think otherwise, why not give some feedback to the Evaluation Committee or the Board of Directors? And please don't attribute my comments to the fact my horses did well in Virginia. In fact, they acted like idiots in their performance tests and I watched months of training, showing and effort get blown away in a few moments. But that's a horse show for you. You have to move on. Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA http://ironwood-farm.com
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mike, Do you think that if the NFHR held only one evaluation a year, say smack in the middle of the country that the amount of Fjords brought would be increased and therefore, more evaluators could attend? Sort of like one of the European evaluations? Lynda In a message dated 8/30/2004 5:25:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just was entering the expenses for the Lacrosse Evaluation so I decided to see what it would cost per test to add a third Evaluator. Lacrosse had 30 horses at the Evaluation there were a total of 51 tests entered by them. I averaged the 2 Evaluators expenses since one drove the other flew in it works out to about an additional $30 per test. That would make the tests $90 each instead of $60 each. That doesn't take into account the other fees for Insurance, stall photo etc that are also added on. I am not sure that people would be willing to pay that much.
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: Ruth Bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] .I will speak from my own experience in the process of being approved as an Evaluator, along with a bit about some of the others here and there. Beth THAT was a very thorough account of your experience as an Evaluator applicant, informative and well thought... (almost camera ready for the Herald =)) thanks for taking the time to share your observations. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:58 AM 8/30/2004, you wrote: This message is from: starfirefarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Lynda and members of the list, I just was entering the expenses for the Lacrosse Evaluation so I decided to see what it would cost per test to add a third Evaluator. Lacrosse had 30 horses at the Evaluation there were a total of 51 tests entered by them. I averaged the 2 Evaluators expenses since one drove the other flew in it works out to about an additional $30 per test. That would make the tests $90 each instead of $60 each. That doesn't take into account the other fees for Insurance, stall photo etc that are also added on. I am not sure that people would be willing to pay that much. Mike Concerning having a panel of evaluators rather than the current two, this is mostly a financial issue. I believe it currently requires the participation of 28-30 horses in any evaluation to break even on the cost of holding the evaluation. Some venues cost more than others. Some evaluations lose money. Some make money and help defray the cost of the ones that lose money. In an ideal world, it would be great to have more than two judges. This might be a possibility in the future (and has been discussed as a future possibility) but is not ecnomically feasible at this time. Would you rather that the program die on the vine because we currently only have two evaluators, or would you rather see the program continue to grow and improve (with the possibility of more in the future?)
Re: Engar - evaluations - long
This message is from: starfirefarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Lynda and members of the list, Lynda wrote: There is not much hearsay involved in my thoughts on our evaluation process. I have brought this up on the Fjords Issues board. My main concerns are the qualifications of the evaluators and to wonder how come we do not use a panel of evaluators versus only two. I am not inclined to think (hope this does not step too hard on anyone's toes) that Fjord breeders are good candidates to become evaluators. You did not differentiate between Sr. Evaluators (Wayne Hipsley, Karen Cabic, Jim Havelhurst) and Evaluators (Brian Jensen, Sharon Makurat, Karen Maas and myself.) I will speak from my own experience in the process of being approved as an Evaluator, along with a bit about some of the others here and there. In 1991 there were 5 Evaluators as I understand it. Wayne Hipsley, Karen Cabic, Jim Havelhurst, Mary Woolverton and Karen Maas. With only 4 evaluators available, the NFHR recognized the need to offer a program by which additional evaluators could be trained to become future evaluators. It was decided that there would be an initial session on Conformation and Movement (basically biomechanics) focusing on in hand work with classroom lecture (slides and video) as well as hands on judging of horses, with written tests. This first session was held here, in Colorado (remember the altitude headaches?) and was open to participants who were interested in becoming evaluators. It was conducted by Wayne Hipsley. The second session was held in Ohio (conducted by Wayne Hipsley) and focused on performance with an eye towards form to function. This session was opened to the general public and a number of NFHR members attended, as well as people who were still interested in pursuing the goal of becoming an evaluator. This was a classroom session conducted with video footage of the performance tests taken from previous evaluations. Evaluator trainees were required to take a written test regarding the presented material. The third session was held in Norway, in conjunction with the Stallion Show in Nordfjordeid. This session was also open to the general fjord population and a number of people attended who were there simply to learn more about fjord horses. The evaluator trainees judged the youngstock and the three year old stallions in the ring, then their results were discussed at the end of the day. 'These meetings were moderated by Jim Havelhurst and a Norwegian evaluator. Trainees were encouraged (challenged) to speak of their observations and to defend why they had placed the horses in their judging. The trainees, in order to be able to move forward in the training program, were required to pass tests along the way with a percentage of 80 or 90% (I don't remember exactly which right now.) In addition to participating in these three training sessions, the trainees are required to attend at least three evaluations, scoring the horses alongside the Sr. Evaluators. The Sr. Evaluators review the marks and behavior of the trainees and score the trainee at the end of the evaluation, providing a numerical score as well as written commentary (much like the score sheet you receive for your horse.) A trainee must receive at least three (more are preferable) satisfactory scores (again, 80% or above) from the Sr. Evaluators before they can be considered by the Evaluation Committe and the NFHR Board of Directors to become Evaluators. There is no time limit to reach this goal. It is the decision of the Board of Directors as to whether or not a person has proven their capability to become an Evaluator. Once a person has been approved to be an Evaluator, the work doesn't end there. Evaluators are encouraged to continue to hone their evaluation skills. That is the main reason why, even though I had already been notified that I was an approved evaluator, I decided to attend the Stallion Show and the International Judges Conference this year in Nordfjordeid. In answer to your concerns regarding breeders being evaluators, I'm not sure there are many people out there who would go to such great lengths who don't have the love of this breed in their hearts. The initial program started with several people who were judges of other breeds, but who balked at the expense and time required to continue in the process to see it to fruition. Regarding my own experience, I could work at 10 evaluations and still not recoup the expenses that I have incurred during this process, simply in travel and lodging alone. That doesn't include the time and revenue lost in being away from our business. I do it because I love the breed and have an interest in helping people recognize the good qualities in their stock, as well as where they might be able to improve. There are a number of evaluators in other countries who are breeders as well. I am assuming that your concern is that a breeder will only look favorably upon stock
Re: evaluations
This message is from: John Eunice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peg, in regard to your statement: Gelding Ari, our Sadie x Flotren colt, practically brought tears to my eyes If it did that to you ...imagine how he felt!!:) Eunice in cold Ontario with knee-deep snow
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: shawna smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Knutsen Fjord Farm One can view videos of the evaluations in Norway. One can read books and the material the NFHR has put out. So where does a person find video's of Norwegian evaluation's?? thanks, Shawna Smith
Evaluations
This message is from: Knutsen Fjord Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ursula, Lori, and Phil - I agree with your well-stated posts about Evaluation, geldings, and importing. In following this thread of why not send videos?, I have wondered why no one had referred to the importance of supporting the NFHR Evaluation system. Getting opinions from evaluators on young stallions by video would almost certainly dilute the existing program. Frankly, I don't think the evaluators would do it on any kind of formal basis. There are many ways, including videos to knowledgeable friends or people you respect in the Fjord community, to get informal opinions on your colt. For example, my friend Betsy Billeter here in Ellensberg has been active for years in the 4-H program that teaches young people how to judge horses. Betsy grew up having horses, and is a long-time Fjord owner. Presently, she owns 2 Gromar daughters, one Konggard daughter, and a fine young gelding, Tor [Rachel x Erlend]. Betsy knows how to judge a horse. She is rather shy and would never present herself as an expert, but she is. She is also very up front about what she sees. She has been an invaluable friend to me in helping me develop an eye and in many other ways. Other friends have helped - Julie Will, Lori Albrough, my trainer Kelley Mills, Curt Pierce, to name just a few. I guess the point here is that any breeder should, and can, educate herself or himself. Catherine has named ways to do this. One can audit evaluator trainings. One can view videos of the evaluations in Norway. One can read books and the material the NFHR has put out. Of course, this is a long-term [never-ending, really] process. Getting help in deciding whether to geld your colt will be a part of the process. Gelding Ari, our Sadie x Flotren colt, practically brought tears to my eyes, because I knew him to be an excellent stallion prospect. But I also knew that Sue Ennis would be a superb human for him, and he would have a wonderful life dressaging away with her. Had we had the facilities and skill to bring up a stud colt in the presence of an Alpha stallion, I would certainly have kept Ari. Part of learning is knowing what you don't know yet, and what skills you don't have yet. Part of the gelding decision should be the recognition that in anything you do, you have to be aware of where the stallion is and where each mare is ALL THE TIME. And you have to have adequate facilities/fencing to keep them apart. The thought of adding another little bundle of testerone who needs to learn manners to this mix boggles my mind. So, Phil, I agree with your statements about importing. Thanks. And thanks, Ruthie, for the offer of Montana rocks. Do you transport free? Mr. Clark is getting plenty of real kisses from his new mom, who adores him. PS - Tor, Betsy's gelding, is for sale. Let me know if you are interested in him. Peg Peg Knutsen - Ellensburg, WA http://www.elltel.net/kffjord/
2002 NFHR Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have all of the Evaluations and all of the shows (that I know about) to be held in 2002 on the NFHR web site calendar ( http://www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html ). Please check here for any dates contact people for more information on them. Mike
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:50 PM 6/4/2002 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: Lisa Schieler [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am interested in the evaluations at Galena. Where in Galena are they going to be? It is going to be held at the Shenandoah Riding Center in Galena, IL. I have a 15 yr old mare that is in training and I have never been to one before. I would like to go to one and get some information on what to prepare for in an evaluation and what to look for in a fjord. Great way to learn a lot about them. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 04:17 PM 6/4/2002 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] THANKS very much Mike. Guess I should have tried it out first I'm very glad to have that correct link and appreciate you passing it on. Always on your toes there, aren't you? Atta Boy ! Well I try to be anyway. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Lisa Schieler [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am interested in the evaluations at Galena. Where in Galena are they going to be? I have a 15 yr old mare that is in training and I have never been to one before. I would like to go to one and get some information on what to prepare for in an evaluation and what to look for in a fjord. Thanks, Lisa Schieler Tremont, IL The only one west of the Mississippi will be in Carson City, NV on Oct 18th 19th. There will also be Evaluations in Galena, IL on Aug12 13th in Morrisville, NY on Sept 28 29th.
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...also, did you check the Canadian Registry? Which I believe is ??? Actually it has been changed to: http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=90 Mike THANKS very much Mike. Guess I should have tried it out first I'm very glad to have that correct link and appreciate you passing it on. Always on your toes there, aren't you? Atta Boy ! Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 6/4/2002 11:58:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually it has been changed to: http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=90 Thanks. I thought I had their site bookmarked, but couldn't find it. Just did a search and didn't come up with anything there either. If nobody on the list can figure out who he is, I'll try the Bishops or Nancy. Thanks again. Pamela
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:19 AM 6/4/2002 -0600, you wrote: This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] She said his name was Lintle Vin. I'm not sure I got the spelling right. He's a 5 year old. The owner said he came from a large operation in Montana. Anybody know who this horse is? === Nancy in Bigfork, MT, had quite a few Fjords at one time last I knew her e-mail was [EMAIL PROTECTED] or you might ask Bev and Storrs Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] (who go back a ways in MT Fjord history)also, did you check the Canadian Registry? Which I believe is http://www.clrc.on.ca/horses Actually it has been changed to: http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=90 Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] She said his name was Lintle Vin. I'm not sure I got the spelling right. He's a 5 year old. The owner said he came from a large operation in Montana. Anybody know who this horse is? === Nancy in Bigfork, MT, had quite a few Fjords at one time last I knew her e-mail was [EMAIL PROTECTED] or you might ask Bev and Storrs Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] (who go back a ways in MT Fjord history)also, did you check the Canadian Registry? Which I believe is http://www.clrc.on.ca/horses Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:35 PM 6/3/2002 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: Frederick J. Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of the Mississippi) will be held? The only one west of the Mississippi will be in Carson City, NV on Oct 18th 19th. There will also be Evaluations in Galena, IL on Aug12 13th in Morrisville, NY on Sept 28 29th. What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? There isn't an Evaluation at Libby this year there isn't a show at Carson City. All of the shows for the year are listed on the NFHR web site under News Events I will soon have all of the Evaluations up there too. Here is a link for you: http://www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Montana Horse Re: Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 6/4/2002 4:23:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We live only 35 miles from the event and it would be so handy for anyone attending to select a choice Fjord from our Bushwhacker herd. =))) (shameless commercial) http://www.libby.org/~bushnell Ruthie and Gene, NW MT Speaking of Libby, and Montana, my riding instructor (who Skylark went to) just leased out a handsome gelding for her therapy program. She said his name was Lintle Vin. I'm not sure I got the spelling right. He's a 5 year old. The owner said he came from a large operation in Montana. But doing a pedigree search on the NFHR website, I didn't find his name anywhere. Anybody know who this horse is? I told Jackie I'd find out what I could about his parents. Pamela
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: ruth bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fred, Nordicfest in Libby, and the International Fjord Horse Show, will be held September 13th--15th and I hope that you and many others will be able to attend. Here is a site listing accommodations. http://www.libby.org/libbyacc/lodging.html We live only 35 miles from the event and it would be so handy for anyone attending to select a choice Fjord from our Bushwhacker herd. =))) (shameless commercial) http://www.libby.org/~bushnell Ruthie and Gene, NW MT This message is from: Frederick J. Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of the Mississippi) will be held? What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? Thanks, Fred All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3158
Re: Evaluations: Carson City
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes Fred,(and anyone else who is wondring...) the Evaluation is scheduled for October 19 20th, near Carson City, in the gorgeous Carson Valley. Conformation, as well as the performance testing will be offered. The site we will be using is a private facility, just 3 miles south of where the Eval was originally scheduled, at the Fairgrounds, but due to construction, they cancelled our reservations there. The Carson Valley Equestrian Center is currently empty, and should remain so for the next few months as it is for sale (anyone have 1.5 mil??)But the owners are very nice in letting us use it, at a avery good rate.There are multiple arenas there, even an indoor, however, due to not many folks haviing access to indoor arenas to prepare their horses in, and also that there are so many arenas available, we will be using it as a warmup area. The weather this time of the year is sunny and cool; we usually don't get our first storm until well after Halloween. Food and lodging, etc. is ample and w/in 4 miles. BONUS: if your bored non-horsey relatives start making comments like how and the heck can ya tell these horses apart, they all look the same.. you can pack 'em off to a casino or Lake Tahoe, or even a few hours in a glider (the carson Valley is glider heaven) might do the trick! I am going to be mailing out the info commitment letters on June 12th to all who expressed an interest earlier this year. If anyone wants to be added into the list, please contact me privately and I will make sure the info gets out to you. I cannot tell you exactly who is judging yet, but I do know that Anne Mike and the rest of the Eval Comm are working these out. One question I had: has anyone officially taped any of the Evals to date? I think it not only would be a fantastic record for a serious breeder, but it would be a great way to educate a potential participant. Photos are great, but hey, ya can't see the movement! If anyone is interested in videotaping, perhaps we could sell the tapes to cover some of the time expense involved. Would anyone be interested in this? And lastly...if you are not planning to bring horses, but want to come watch absorb, please also consider volunteering. It can be as involved as taking a turn at the gate, or running up into town for the judges lunches... Hope this info helps! Karen PS: just a personal note. pls excuse any typos above...I am getting kinda frantic excited prepping for my first CDE in a long while, (4 years!!) I am taking a really nice homebred mare, Alycia, Sven x Thyri (Gromar), that is soon going to another home in California(sigh!)At least we get to do one real event together. When her new owners found out I was entered in the Hayfork CDE, that clinched the deal. They didn't want anyone to snap her up this weekend! I will get a breeding out of her: she has a date with Peppertree's Christian, Ronaldo x BDF Jennifer Ann (Gjest) 2 weeks after the CDE. Busy girl! Original Message Follows From: Frederick J. Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of the Mississippi) will be held? What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? Thanks, Fred _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Evaluations
This message is from: Frederick J. Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can you folks tell me exactly when and where any evaluations (West of the Mississippi) will be held? What are the exact dates for Libby and Carson City shows? Thanks, Fred All Mail is scanned in AND out by Norton Anti-virus. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, Washington 98396 http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3158
Re[2]: Competitor Conduct at Fjord Shows Evaluations
This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vivian-- Saturday, May 25, 2002, you wrote: The difficulty I see in regional Fjord shows is there is no Technical Delegate to help diffuse the competitors anger and if the TD perceives a real problem can then facilitate setting things straight... My comment on qualified judges is in no way meant to demean the NFHR list of judges it is just that in my opinion it takes a mighty amazing judge to be familiar with the NGB rules governing all the disciplines that take place at a breed show. I certainly agree with what you say, however I believe it would be just a hard to find TDs with the requisite breadth of knowledge as judges. And without an agreed set of rules to take as a starting point how can either judges/TDs or competitors really know what's expected in the ring? Just as an example, in a Fjord show several years ago the locally written rules for an obstacle driving class called for elimination for a break to canter, but didn't bother to define a break. As a result, the majority of competitors were eliminated. When I talked to the judge later he said he was aware of the ADS 3 stride definition of a break, and that only a time penalty was called for on the first three breaks, but he was stuck with the rules he had been given by the show committee. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd Skipper -- Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA If I be once on horse-back, I alight very unwillingly; for it is the seat I like best. --Michel Eyquem de Montaigne(1533-1592)
Re: Competitor Conduct at Fjord Shows Evaluations
This message is from: Vivian Creigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve McIlree5/25/02 2:31 [EMAIL PROTECTED] If anyone is going to throw back the rhetoric about outside rules destroying the friendly family atmosphere of the shows, please explain exactly how standard, proven rules would do that. You are not going to get any argument from me, Steve. Rules prevail in every recognized competition and they are there to level the playing field for all so discrepencies do not or should not happen. The difficulty I see in regional Fjord shows is there is no Technical Delegate to help diffuse the competitors anger and if the TD perceives a real problem can then facilitate setting things straight. Because everyone at a regional Fjord show are friends or at least acquainted with one another it is difficult for the show committee members to remain neutral. Also often the members of the show committee are themselves showing which compromises any conflict of interest issues. Management should not compete especially if they have hired the judges. HUGE CONFLICT If a show publishes that the driving classes will be run according to ADS rules but there are show committee members that always drive without nosebands or cavessons on their driving bridles it is quite likely that this ADS rule will be ignored. If the judge judging the driving classes is not an ADS judge it is unlikely he/she will know that there is such a rule or if they do know that it is a rule and approach a show committee member about it is possible they will be told to ignore it because Fjord people routinely drive without nosebands. This scenario is pure conjecture. I am just trying to point out how these issues often play out. Rules for all but the Fun classes have already been worked out by the USA Eq, ADS, USDF etc. But saying you will run a show according to those rules and then having a judge and management that is unfamiliar with those rules defeats the purpose. Publishing that your show will be run by certain rules is a great start but unless you have an impartial, knowledgeable person (TD) to make sure that those rules are followed and a judging panel that is also familiar with the rules and general protocol you will not be able to effectively put those rules into effect. Failure to play by the rules will in some instances be grounds for elimination, but just try and tell someone at a local Fjord show that they have been elminated because their harness doesn't conform to ADS rules and believe me you'll have a fight on your hands. By the way only the judge can eliminate a competitor. There is absolutely no reason that the NFHR needs to reinvent the wheel by writing their own rules or even sanctioning regional Fjord shows. Some of the issues Brian referred to in his post would be covered under USAEq or ADS rules, but unless the show committee spends the money to hire qualified judges and a licensed TD the show committees should save money on ink and not bother to publish any affiliations. My above comment on qualified judges is in no way meant to demean the NFHR list of judges it is just that in my opinion it takes a mighty amazing judge to be familiar with the NGB rules governing all the disciplines that take place at a breed show. As for Brian's comment on profanity, throwing hayforks and the like that can be chalked up to poor social skills, nothing more. Unless the profanity was directed personally towards the judge there isn't much one can do about that type of behaviour. However, if there were a TD officiating he/she could take that person aside and try and calm things down a bit . I have always admired licensed TDs in Driving because they must wear so many hats and remain gracious and efficient at all times. How do they do that? This turned out to be too long and a bit redundant, sorry. Have a Happy Memorial Day weekend everyone. Vivian Creigh
Re: Competitor Conduct at Fjord Shows Evaluations
This message is from: Steve McIlree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brian-- Thursday, May 23, 2002, you wrote: For some time now I have encouraged the NFHR to adopt a standard set of show rules for all shows they have sanctioned... Well, Mike points out that the NFHR doesn't sanction shows, but maybe it's time that some thought was given in that direction. It would be real nice to have one set of rules so people could go to any Fjord show and not run into any surprises. Of course, as Mike also pointed out the NFHR has ALREADY published a set of standard show rules. So what is the problem with the regional shows adopting them? For the most part, the Registry's rules follow those that have been proved workable by the AHSA and ADS. If the purpose of the regional clubs is to promote the Fjord Horse, one of the best things they can to is get members showing up at open horse shows with their Fjords. And learning the rules that the general horse community competes by at friendly local shows makes a lot of sense. So let me ask once more, why don't the regional groups just start using the NFHR rules? If anyone is going to throw back the rhetoric about outside rules destroying the friendly family atmosphere of the shows, please explain exactly how standard, proven rules would do that. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd Skipper -- Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA Horses carry the history of mankind on their backs. If you should find one is carrying you as well, acknowledge your good fortune and indeed your honor. --Lucinda Prior Palmer(b. 1953)
Competitor Conduct at Fjord Shows Evaluations
This message is from: Ursula Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Ursula Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List from Brian Jensen; After another E-Mail about show conduct by competitors I thought it imperative to write the list about these issues. As we conduct ourselves in life-there are standards and guidelines for conduct at shows and Evaluations. If my information is an indicator there is an increasing amount of improper, impolite, and disrespectful conduct by some competitors at our shows and Evaluations. This conduct- be it profanity in public; unfair gossip and criticism of fellow members or Show Committees or Judges is not acceptable under any circumstances. Conduct--as outlined in CEF Rules. All participants are obliged to conduct themselves in an orderly manner and in the best interest of the horse and show. Management, or the Show Committee shall bar violators from further participation for the remainder of the show. A report of continued violation or incident be forwarded to the designated authority for any disciplinary action deemed necessary. If a competitor acts in a manner contrary to the Show Rules, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike, or prejudicial to themselves, others, committee members, or well being of their animals; is not acceptable. Making remarks considered offensive, or with the intent to influence or cast aspersions on the character of the Judge or any other person at the show is not acceptable. Examples of infractions I am aware of are profanity in public. Throwing hay forks at other competitors , Deformation of the character of officials.Knowingly breaking show rules to suit oneself. For some time now I have encouraged the NFHR to adopt a standard set of show rules for all shows they have sanctioned and insured. In Canada our show insurance is void if the standard set of show rules have not been followed. It is unfortunate that I have to address these issues. Competitors naturally become very emotional and sometimes say or do things they would later regret. The present incidents now seem to have occurred sometime-somewhere in all Fjord shows, and does not seem to be diminishing . If you are unhappy with a situation at a show there is a protocol that is universal to all sanctioned events. The procedure for lodging protests and requesting appeals is directed to the show committee with a deposit of about 50.00.If the protest or appeal is upheld ones deposit is returned. An example of this protocol being used happened at Libby last fall. After a driving runaway in a class it was noticed some entrants were driving without nosebands which are ADS Rules regulation. Some entrants were removed from the class but others were allowed to continue without the proper driving equipment.This confusion could be totally eliminated with standard rules and guidelines. Sincerely--Brian Jensen Ursula Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC Canada V0E-2G0 http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (250) 547-6303
Re: Competitor Conduct at Fjord Shows Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:38 PM 5/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: This message is from: Ursula Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List from Brian Jensen; For some time now I have encouraged the NFHR to adopt a standard set of show rules for all shows they have sanctioned and insured. In Canada our show insurance is void if the standard set of show rules have not been followed. Just to clarify this part a bit Brian. First of all the NFHR does NOT sanction or insure any horse shows. The NFHR only holds the Evaluations. Sometimes they are in conjunction with a horse show but they are separate events. The NFHR has published rules for horse shows but they are not binding are up to each group to use them or not. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Competitor Conduct at Fjord Shows Evaluations
This message is from: Ursula Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List from Brian Jensen; After another E-Mail about show conduct by competitors I thought it imperative to write the list about these issues. As we conduct ourselves in life-there are standards and guidelines for conduct at shows and Evaluations. If my information is an indicator there is an increasing amount of improper, impolite, and disrespectful conduct by some competitors at our shows and Evaluations. This conduct- be it profanity in public; unfair gossip and criticism of fellow members or Show Committees or Judges is not acceptable under any circumstances. Conduct--as outlined in CEF Rules. All participants are obliged to conduct themselves in an orderly manner and in the best interest of the horse and show. Management, or the Show Committee shall bar violators from further participation for the remainder of the show. A report of continued violation or incident be forwarded to the designated authority for any disciplinary action deemed necessary. If a competitor acts in a manner contrary to the Show Rules, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike, or prejudicial to themselves, others, committee members, or well being of their animals; is not acceptable. Making remarks considered offensive, or with the intent to influence or cast aspersions on the character of the Judge or any other person at the show is not acceptable. Examples of infractions I am aware of are profanity in public. Throwing hay forks at other competitors , Deformation of the character of officials.Knowingly breaking show rules to suit oneself. For some time now I have encouraged the NFHR to adopt a standard set of show rules for all shows they have sanctioned and insured. In Canada our show insurance is void if the standard set of show rules have not been followed. It is unfortunate that I have to address these issues. Competitors naturally become very emotional and sometimes say or do things they would later regret. The present incidents now seem to have occurred sometime-somewhere in all Fjord shows, and does not seem to be diminishing . If you are unhappy with a situation at a show there is a protocol that is universal to all sanctioned events. The procedure for lodging protests and requesting appeals is directed to the show committee with a deposit of about 50.00.If the protest or appeal is upheld ones deposit is returned. An example of this protocol being used happened at Libby last fall. After a driving runaway in a class it was noticed some entrants were driving without nosebands which are ADS Rules regulation. Some entrants were removed from the class but others were allowed to continue without the proper driving equipment.This confusion could be totally eliminated with standard rules and guidelines. Sincerely--Brian Jensen Ursula Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC Canada V0E-2G0 http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (250) 547-6303
2002 Summer NFHR Evaluations
This message is from: Ursula Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Group from Brian Jensen; I understand there could possibly be three Evaluations this summer across the country. Could the folks working on these please supply dates and locations so we can adjust our schedule to be able to attend.Hankyu in advance.-Brian Jensen Ursula Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC Canada V0E-2G0 http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (250) 547-6303
Evaluations
This message is from: Lassesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen McCarthy - As a BOD member, I am in support of all NFHR Evaluations. The more we have the better educated our NFHR members will become in the quality of Fjords we are trying to keep in the USA and in the world. The Turlock one last year barely made it and I would suggest to ask the members that own the Fjords, if there is a better location to draw more owners. You may find out it is in Southern California verses Central California, or you may find out that the location would be better in Washington or Oregon. As a member of the BOD, I by all mean do not want to discourage you from hosting another NFHR Evaluation. And as a BOD Member, I will support your group's efforts. Catherine Lassesen
Re: West Coast Evaluations
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for the advice Mike. I will contact Tom or Anne. I would like to have as much support from the NFHR as I can get. As you know, it is imperative that an Evaluation have member support behind it (i.e. at least 30 -40 horses lined up), hence my post. Consider it pre-polling! I have had about 3 private emails one from Fred (thanks!!) telling me that they are interested..anyone else?? And by all means, if you don't have a horse that is ready to be evaluated, don't forget that volunteers are MOST welcome!! Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, Nv Original Message Follows From: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: West Coast Evaluations Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:32:25 -0500 If your serious Karen you should contact the committee at least give them an idea that you are interested in doing one again. Please contact either of the co-chairs of the committee - Tom Hans or Anne Appleby. If you need their email addresses let me know. Mike _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: West Coast Evaluations
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 10:56 PM 12/17/2001 +, you wrote: This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, I would be supportive of having another full-on Eval (Conformation Performance Testing) in 2002, separate from the Turlock Show. The venue could be Turlock or another site. If anyone would be interested in such a thing happening next year out on the left coast, please write me let me know your thoughts. If enough interest is shown, then I will proceed with this to the NFHR BOD Eval Comm. If your serious Karen you should contact the committee at least give them an idea that you are interested in doing one again. Please contact either of the co-chairs of the committee - Tom Hans or Anne Appleby. If you need their email addresses let me know. Mike Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: West Coast Evaluations
This message is from: Frederick J. Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] I absolutely second the motion of another West coast evaluation. In fact, if another eval is held at Turlock, I have already promised Karen that I would be the official photographer. There are also excellent facilities in Auburn, Washington for an eval should the board so choose. Fred and Lois Pack Pack's Peak Stables Wilkeson, WA USA http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3158 Subject: Re: West Coast Evaluations This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mike, I would like to remind folks that the Eval held at Turlock this past September was a Conformation-Only Eval - it only took place one day, on Friday prior to Horse Show. Fjordings West decided to do this as a) it was our first ever Eval, and 2) it was going to be held in conjunction with the Turlock Show, and we didn't want to wipe everyone out by doing too much in a weekend. However, I would be supportive of having another full-on Eval (Conformation Performance Testing) in 2002, separate from the Turlock Show. The venue could be Turlock or another site. If anyone would be interested in such a thing happening next year out on the left coast, please write me let me know your thoughts. If enough interest is shown, then I will proceed with this to the NFHR BOD Eval Comm. Thanks for your time Karen McCarthy, Pres. Fjordings West Great Basin Fjords Carson City, Nv
