Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Paul Norman wrote: Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right tool! The revert tools just do a delete. I hope not! They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert rolled all the nodes back to their correct position. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 9:36 PM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.ukwrote: In an attempt to put some numbers to to the errors made by new mappers debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east) Hi, Just wondering what tools you use to keep an eye on that area? I'd love to have a better idea of what other editors are doing in my area. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Am 25.08.2013 10:17, schrieb Lester Caine: Paul Norman wrote: Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right tool! The revert tools just do a delete. I hope not! They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert rolled all the nodes back to their correct position. I fear, your hope is worthless. Sure: After the revert the state of the map (without history) is the same as before the reverted change, but if you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error code 412). regards Peter [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Update:_PUT_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2F.5Bnode.7Cway.7Crelation.5D.2F.23id ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org Paul Norman wrote: Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right tool! The revert tools just do a delete. I hope not! They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert rolled all the nodes back to their correct position. Vandalism is generally creating objects that don't exist, so in most cases they end up deleting. If you're talking about different types of vandalism, odds are it wouldn't be deleted. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:57 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org If you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error code 412). This is incorrect - revert tools can turn a deleted object into a visible one. So can any user for that matter - it's not like they have any special access. Error 412 is not relevant when reverting in the correct order and there are no conflicts with other edits in the area. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
2013/8/25 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de The revert tools just do a delete. I hope not! They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert rolled all the nodes back to their correct position. I fear, your hope is worthless. Sure: After the revert the state of the map (without history) is the same as before the reverted change, but if you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects. no, this is not true, the deleted objects ids are indeed reused and the same object is recreated (but a new version is created, the deletion remains of course in history), example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1098346508/history cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Am 25.08.2013 11:11, schrieb Paul Norman: From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:57 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org If you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error code 412). This is incorrect - revert tools can turn a deleted object into a visible one. So can any user for that matter - it's not like they have any special access. Error 412 is not relevant when reverting in the correct order and there are no conflicts with other edits in the area. If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it? The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so IMHO it's missing there, isn't it? regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
2013/8/25 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com Hi, Just wondering what tools you use to keep an eye on that area? I'd love to have a better idea of what other editors are doing in my area. I'm using IFTTT to get an email from the rss-feeds created by Pascal Neis' new mappers service. The feed is here (adjust the coordinates to your needs): http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmfeed.php?lon=12.5lat=41.86deg=1 and an example recipe is here: https://ifttt.com/recipes/76850 cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org Am 25.08.2013 11:11, schrieb Paul Norman: From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de] Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:57 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org If you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error code 412). This is incorrect - revert tools can turn a deleted object into a visible one. So can any user for that matter - it's not like they have any special access. Error 412 is not relevant when reverting in the correct order and there are no conflicts with other edits in the area. If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it? The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so IMHO it's missing there, isn't it? They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties. The more relevant call for uploading data is http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset .2F.23id.2Fupload. I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Am 25.08.2013 11:42, schrieb Paul Norman: From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de] If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it? The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so IMHO it's missing there, isn't it? They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties. The more relevant call for uploading data is http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset .2F.23id.2Fupload. I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation. Sounds inconsistent nevertheless: updating a single object using PUT /api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id is not possible when referring to a deleted object, but updating the same object using diff is. If nobody complains, I'll add a hint to the section referring to the diff upload section, and a hint that diff uploads may be used for real reverts, too. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Am 24.08.13 schrieb Lester Caine: See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater. In your last 5 changesets you deleted 7 nodes. You improved the quality of the map by deleting (and adding) nodes. When you try a new editor or add a node by mistake, you might not want to save everything you added. So you need a way to delete them without throwing away all your changes. Fabian. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
(remember to check address!) Peter Wendorff wrote: If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it? The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so IMHO it's missing there, isn't it? They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties. The more relevant call for uploading data is http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset .2F.23id.2Fupload. I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation. Sounds inconsistent nevertheless: updating a single object using PUT /api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id is not possible when referring to a deleted object, but updating the same object using diff is. If nobody complains, I'll add a hint to the section referring to the diff upload section, and a hint that diff uploads may be used for real reverts, too. At the end of the day, nothing is ACTUALLY deleted. Currently a copy is retained in the changelog and that is simply used to 're-edit' changes so that as has been said a new version is created matching the last but one version. The API does not prevent using a 'deleted' node or way number so all of the change log history can be retained. But this is where maintaining historic records creates a problem. Only one copy of an object is maintained in the main live data, so accessing a previous 'view' say prior to a realignment of a road fails because it has the same way number. Using start and end dates to select a particular view is not supported ... This is where 'delete' is the wrong concept. Currently it just means it's made invisible and there is no reason it can't simply be restored. What should be happening is that there should be a mechanism to tag the reason for the 'change of state' and changes that are due to historic development need to be made available via a different route. Since the start and end date tags already exist, managing these properly is long overdue, but it's moving records that now have an end date to a view of the database where that information can be used that is currently missing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Fabian Schmidt wrote: See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater. In your last 5 changesets you deleted 7 nodes. You improved the quality of the map by deleting (and adding) nodes. When you try a new editor or add a node by mistake, you might not want to save everything you added. So you need a way to delete them without throwing away all your changes. As none of the editors understand the concept of historic information, none of them do the job right. id certainly does NOT allow moving nodes as well as P2 does - although part of that is probably now learning yet another interface!!! Undo and redo are the correct way of handling things WITHIN a changeset, and yes delete is appropriate in the change set, but nodes that already exist IN the database need different handling. New mappers may not even appreciate that a node may be part of many other objects, and so while they are deleting it in the concept of what they are modifying, it may not be appropriate for the other ways using it! It irritates me that people merge ways because of a 'macro' view, but pulling them back apart to restore the the micro view is difficult with the current tools :( And has trouble with the reusing the changeset history. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi Lester, Thanks - my fault. misread the section about 412, which refers to MEMBERS of the updated object, not to the object itself. Sorry for the confusion! regards Peter Am 25.08.2013 12:37, schrieb Lester Caine: (remember to check address!) Peter Wendorff wrote: If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it? The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so IMHO it's missing there, isn't it? They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties. The more relevant call for uploading data is http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset .2F.23id.2Fupload. I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation. Sounds inconsistent nevertheless: updating a single object using PUT /api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id is not possible when referring to a deleted object, but updating the same object using diff is. If nobody complains, I'll add a hint to the section referring to the diff upload section, and a hint that diff uploads may be used for real reverts, too. At the end of the day, nothing is ACTUALLY deleted. Currently a copy is retained in the changelog and that is simply used to 're-edit' changes so that as has been said a new version is created matching the last but one version. The API does not prevent using a 'deleted' node or way number so all of the change log history can be retained. But this is where maintaining historic records creates a problem. Only one copy of an object is maintained in the main live data, so accessing a previous 'view' say prior to a realignment of a road fails because it has the same way number. Using start and end dates to select a particular view is not supported ... This is where 'delete' is the wrong concept. Currently it just means it's made invisible and there is no reason it can't simply be restored. What should be happening is that there should be a mechanism to tag the reason for the 'change of state' and changes that are due to historic development need to be made available via a different route. Since the start and end date tags already exist, managing these properly is long overdue, but it's moving records that now have an end date to a view of the database where that information can be used that is currently missing? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Aug 23, 2013 5:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO an editor should either display these memberships and relations or not allow the modification of involved members. Doing neither is crying for trouble. I'm willing to go so far as to say any editor that doesn't is fundamentally lacking at a basic level and should be withdrawn until fixed. It's 2013 and things like highway, bus, bicycle and hiking routes, turn restrictions and site mapping intrinsically depend on relations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 4:45 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. +1 We also have to see deletions as positive contributions a priori when it is really fixing something (e.g. removing an obsolete POI). Only intentional deletions are positive contributions. There are mouse mistake deletions. And haste deletions. All I ask is that before deleting a POI, that you (beginner, intermediate or guru) examine it. Can it be fixed? Should it be disused: instead? There are few POIs that can be reasonably deleted from the geometry alone... which is why I feel putting the trash can in the editing area is poor workflow. Instead set the UI up to encourage good workflow: see a POI that might be bad, examine it's current content and/or history, apply local knowledge and/or research, and then execute a course of action. Respect the prior mapper's work by actually looking at it, prior to deleting it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. +1 We also have to see deletions as positive contributions a priori when it is really fixing something (e.g. removing an obsolete POI). Only intentional deletions are positive contributions. There are mouse mistake deletions. And haste deletions. All I ask is that before deleting a POI, that you (beginner, intermediate or guru) examine it. Can it be fixed? Should it be disused: instead? There are few POIs that can be reasonably deleted from the geometry alone... which is why I feel putting the trash can in the editing area is poor workflow. Instead set the UI up to encourage good workflow: see a POI that might be bad, examine it's current content and/or history, apply local knowledge and/or research, and then execute a course of action. Respect the prior mapper's work by actually looking at it, prior to deleting it. Until such time as we have a properly documented workflow which archives 'obsolete POI' to an historic map database, they should remain on the map, with an end date. OK the history retains when an action as taken, but the important missing information here is 'closed down xxx' otherwise one does not know if an item was removed because it was wrong or for some legitimate reason. So to my mind there should NEVER be a trash can - 'archive' with properly added tags is the only correct work flow! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
What about when an object (perhaps a road or a boundary) is replaced by a better approximation? The history of the database objects is already dealt with (you can access old versions and see when it was deleted). Typically in these cases the new version gets drawn/uploaded, the tags are copied over and the old version is deleted. So there will be an ongoing need for a delete button. Maybe your suggestion would be well supported by a clone POI operation, which creates a duplicate of the selected POI and deletes the old version with one click of the mouse? Colin On 2013-08-24 10:13, Lester Caine wrote: Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. +1 We also have to see deletions as positive contributions a priori when it is really fixing something (e.g. removing an obsolete POI). Only intentional deletions are positive contributions. There are mouse mistake deletions. And haste deletions. All I ask is that before deleting a POI, that you (beginner, intermediate or guru) examine it. Can it be fixed? Should it be disused: instead? There are few POIs that can be reasonably deleted from the geometry alone... which is why I feel putting the trash can in the editing area is poor workflow. Instead set the UI up to encourage good workflow: see a POI that might be bad, examine it's current content and/or history, apply local knowledge and/or research, and then execute a course of action. Respect the prior mapper's work by actually looking at it, prior to deleting it. Until such time as we have a properly documented workflow which archives 'obsolete POI' to an historic map database, they should remain on the map, with an end date. OK the history retains when an action as taken, but the important missing information here is 'closed down xxx' otherwise one does not know if an item was removed because it was wrong or for some legitimate reason. So to my mind there should NEVER be a trash can - 'archive' with properly added tags is the only correct work flow! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Colin Smale wrote: What about when an object (perhaps a road or a boundary) is replaced by a better approximation? The history of the database objects is already dealt with (you can access old versions and see when it was deleted). Typically in these cases the new version gets drawn/uploaded, the tags are copied over and the old version is deleted. So there will be an ongoing need for a delete button. Maybe your suggestion would be well supported by a clone POI operation, which creates a duplicate of the selected POI and deletes the old version with one click of the mouse? And in this case a substantial amount of history gets lost! Case 1 ... better imagery shows that the location of a way is wrong ... so move the way to the new location! Do not delete the way and and start again from scratch. This is were 'imports' are very badly broken, and when a new import is applied it should update the one it replaces especially when other material may well now be using the original nodes? We have many years of 'history' building up, but if that is wiped every time some new raw data is loaded information is lost. Case 2 ... an area is redeveloped and the road structure and buildings replaced with a new layout. In this case the old layout very much needs retaining and is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be transferred to an historic map. Again - delete - is totally the wrong action! Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right tool! Case 4 ... you add something wrong to the map while editing ... use undo! Bottom line - remove the delete button :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
John Firebaugh wrote: During the last month in this area: P2 iD JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+) Made no newbie errors34 17 3 3 Made at least one newbie error 40 16 1 3 Made more serious errors 5 0 1 0 So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. If you have time, I would love to see more numbers in the future or changeset examples that show what types of errors are most common. No problem - at current rate of registration there'll be 50 or so new mappers in that same area in a couple of weeks or so (the rate will hopefully go up with press such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6265150 ), so I'll have a look then. I'm a bit wary of posting individual user errors in a searchable public forum (I wouldn't have wanted my new user errors preserved for posterity in that way!) but will try recreate and summarise the common ones below. Of course the iD versions used in the data above and the summaries below won't be current so these issues may already have been addressed. 1) A POI added without a main tag http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/4295739963 I suspect that people are adding a point to a map (in this case for a shop), and are not seeing shop in the default list to the left or understanding that they can search. In my experience the search works really well, and once a point has been added by mistake the change feature tooltip is pretty obvious too - so I've no idea how to improve here! 2) Thing X changed to thing Y http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4295035814 There have been a couple of examples of people clicking in an area (in this example landuse=residential) and then changing it to match the POI or area that they're trying to add, resulting in something like this unfeasibly large place of worship. 3) Deletions http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/30174 I've no idea whether things are being deleted by clicking on the rubbish bin icon or pressing the keyboard shortcut. According to comments on #osm-gb there have been a couple of attempts to find out what buttons people are clicking, but the answer is I didn't mean to do X - I've no idea how it happened. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
SomeoneElse wrote: 1) A POI added without a main tag http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/4295739963 I suspect that people are adding a point to a map (in this case for a shop), and are not seeing shop in the default list to the left or understanding that they can search. In my experience the search works really well, and once a point has been added by mistake the change feature tooltip is pretty obvious too - so I've no idea how to improve here! Potlatch2 works nicely by drag and drop a selected POI onto the map. It's grid does need a little updating, but on the whole is a better starting point. I will be making a case for including that into id ... the current 'blank page' when adding a point is not user friendly at all! It took me a while and a few moves to get a POI node created in id ... 3) Deletions http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/30174 I've no idea whether things are being deleted by clicking on the rubbish bin icon or pressing the keyboard shortcut. According to comments on #osm-gb there have been a couple of attempts to find out what buttons people are clicking, but the answer is I didn't mean to do X - I've no idea how it happened. See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Am 24.08.2013 11:00, schrieb Lester Caine: Case 1 ... better imagery shows that the location of a way is wrong ... so move the way to the new location! Do not delete the way and and start again from scratch. This is were 'imports' are very badly broken, and when a new import is applied it should update the one it replaces especially when other material may well now be using the original nodes? We have many years of 'history' building up, but if that is wiped every time some new raw data is loaded information is lost. Case 2 ... an area is redeveloped and the road structure and buildings replaced with a new layout. In this case the old layout very much needs retaining and is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be transferred to an historic map. Again - delete - is totally the wrong action! Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right tool! Case 4 ... you add something wrong to the map while editing ... use undo! Bottom line - remove the delete button :) +1 The revert button is also not needed quite often and as direction is only indicated with oneway you would only need it to change the direction of a oneway street which works by changing the tag. E.g. why is the button that prominent ? Cheers colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:00 AM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right tool! The revert tools just do a delete. Case 4 ... you add something wrong to the map while editing ... use undo! There is an open issue about how to make it more obvious to someone that they've made a mistake to increase the use of undo. Experienced mappers make mistakes too, but they catch them and undo. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, On 08/23/13 01:11, Paul Johnson wrote: Given the maintenance situation on P2, promoting iD seems like the only way forward. Web launch a JOSM session? As an avid JOSM user and former member of the JOSM programming team I am happy to see that JOSM is thriving. Making the default edit action web-launch JOSM however would probably be the end of that (and not just because of the technological issues of web launch). Tons of newbies, overwhelmed by JOSM's broad array of capabilities and the not-necessarily-simple user interface that comes with it, would violate our data in ways that would make experienced mappers hark back to the good old days when it was only Potlatch 1 that people could do damage with. The limited available JOSM developer time would quickly be used up by making every bit of JOSM newbie proof, and experienced users would complain about limitations introduced to reduce potential damage. Frankly I am quite happy that we have, in JOSM, an editor that, while free for everyone to try out, does target the more demanding users, and can therefor afford to be a little more demanding itself. An editor where as a programmer you don't have to think about whether your users know what a way or a node is and so on. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
+1 And don't forget JOSM basic and expert modes... which are already providing an intermediate step between P2/iD dans the full featured JOSM. +1 also to make iD the default editor on osm.org 2013/8/23 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org Hi, On 08/23/13 01:11, Paul Johnson wrote: Given the maintenance situation on P2, promoting iD seems like the only way forward. Web launch a JOSM session? As an avid JOSM user and former member of the JOSM programming team I am happy to see that JOSM is thriving. Making the default edit action web-launch JOSM however would probably be the end of that (and not just because of the technological issues of web launch). Tons of newbies, overwhelmed by JOSM's broad array of capabilities and the not-necessarily-simple user interface that comes with it, would violate our data in ways that would make experienced mappers hark back to the good old days when it was only Potlatch 1 that people could do damage with. The limited available JOSM developer time would quickly be used up by making every bit of JOSM newbie proof, and experienced users would complain about limitations introduced to reduce potential damage. Frankly I am quite happy that we have, in JOSM, an editor that, while free for everyone to try out, does target the more demanding users, and can therefor afford to be a little more demanding itself. An editor where as a programmer you don't have to think about whether your users know what a way or a node is and so on. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Il giorno 23/ago/2013, alle ore 10:17, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org ha scritto: Frankly I am quite happy that we have, in JOSM, an editor that, while free for everyone to try out, does target the more demanding users, and can therefor afford to be a little more demanding itself. An editor where as a programmer you don't have to think about whether your users know what a way or a node is and so on. +1 and which at the same time doesn't hide relations and relation membership and which warns nonetheless when you try to do potentially harmful stuff like deleting or merging relation members. IMHO an editor should either display these memberships and relations or not allow the modification of involved members. Doing neither is crying for trouble. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Thanks so much for running those numbers! Actual data is helpful in a conversation that has contained quite a few assumptions. (Continuing the assumption trend...) Anecdotally, as someone who only became an active editor last year, I found P2 more accessible than JOSM as a new contributor. I had an experienced contributor show me how to use both, but would usually default to P2. I could tell that JOSM was more feature-rich, but I found it overwhelming. I felt safer in P2 as i was getting started. I'm not a new contributor anymore, but I think that iD is following this trend. Even now, I almost always default to iD when I'm editing-- the cleaner interface is less overwhelming to me, and it's very rare that I'm doing something that isn't supported by iD. On Aug 21, 2013 4:08 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno 21/ago/2013, alle ore 20:10, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. one might conclude that Josm is the best suggestion for newbies (but there are probably too few numbers in this survey to be sure). Nobody has suggested so far in this thread to make Josm the default, but it could be an option? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Aug 17, 2013 12:33 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Given the maintenance situation on P2, promoting iD seems like the only way forward. Web launch a JOSM session? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Bryce, On 08/21/2013 01:05 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: iD raises the bar, as should any project that wholesale replaces another. Instead the question should be what achievable workflows have a shot at helping starting mappers turn into quality repeat mappers? You seem to be arguing that iD would have to be demonstrably better than P2 in order to legitimise making it the default. I have to disagree on this point; I think that even if iD were a 1:1 reimplementation of P2 in Javascript with zero improvements (which it isn't!), even then it would already be superior to P2 because of not relying on proprietary and dying technology. The only reason for delaying the making-default of iD can be, IMHO, if it fared worse than P2 in one or more aspects of non-trivial importance. Missing an opportunity to be better would not be sufficient reason for me. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. I don't see this as a problem. Deleting is equally important as inserting or moving objects in any editor. When you edit a page in wikipedia, nobody complains that deleting words is so easy, even for a first contribution. What I deeply regret is that OSM website still does not offer to everyone, including newcomers, a fast and easy way to revert an edit once it is saved. Reverting is done in two clicks on wikipedia. This is something important for newcomers. They are less worry to participate if they know that they (or someone else) can revert at any time their mistakes, even after clicking the 'save' button. I have personnally more problems when I see that moving a node is simpler than moving a way, but that's a detail. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Pieren wrote: In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. I don't see this as a problem. Deleting is equally important as inserting or moving objects in any editor. When you edit a page in wikipedia, nobody complains that deleting words is so easy, even for a first contribution. What I deeply regret is that OSM website still does not offer to everyone, including newcomers, a fast and easy way to revert an edit once it is saved. Reverting is done in two clicks on wikipedia. This is something important for newcomers. They are less worry to participate if they know that they (or someone else) can revert at any time their mistakes, even after clicking the 'save' button. I'd second that. Although I think the comparison with wikipedia is perhaps not so straight forward. We can easily grab a page of text and edit it locally for our own use. In the past people have tried to do the same thing with the map not understanding perhaps the implications. A better handling of the SAVE cycle might suffice in a lot of cases, rather than a pop-up for each delete? So many nodes will be deleted from the live map ... did you really mean to do that? Then from the other end, a means of editing and printing an area of map 'off-line' so people can do their own quick customise? I have personnally more problems when I see that moving a node is simpler than moving a way, but that's a detail. I'm interested in that comment. I've had a few occasions I think on P2 but it may have been JOSM, when I've gone to realign a node ready to bring some additional way in contact, but the whole target way has moved. Undo fixes the problem, but I could not see why you would want to move the whole way especially when you can't see the ends? To me the default should just be moving the node? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Il giorno 21/ago/2013, alle ore 11:44, Pieren pier...@gmail.com ha scritto: In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. I don't see this as a problem. Deleting is equally important as inserting or moving objects in any editor. When you edit a page in wikipedia, nobody complains that deleting words is so easy, apples and pears, deleting an article in WP is much harder and no one can do it alone, we're not discussing the deletion of a tag but the deletion of a complete object including its history (they remain in the db but finding them gets quite complicated), and especially cases where these deletions lead to further inconsistencies (objects referenced in relations) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: A better handling of the SAVE cycle might suffice in a lot of cases, rather than a pop-up for each delete? So many nodes will be deleted from the live map ... did you really mean to do that? I think we speak here about newcomers deletings elements 'by accident'. This happened with the older editors as well. Pure vandalism is not prevented by a pop-up or 2 clicks instead of one. And when people have been contacted for their damages, these contributors explained often that they simply did not realize that their changes went to the real database. That's why imho, a pop-up showed only one time on the first save action warning that this is modifying the real map data would be sufficient. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
What I deeply regret is that OSM website still does not offer to everyone, including newcomers, a fast and easy way to revert an edit once it is saved. Work is under way. Please stay tuned an have an eye on the workshop The geometry and data of change at the SOTM. In more detail: As opposed to wikipedia, a typical edit usually gets non-trivally interdependend both with other edits as well as the different parts of an edit to each other. So a revert function that just reverts entire changesets unless they have other dependencies is of limited use, because most changesets that do significant harm get quickly interdepend on those changes intended to repair the harm. You can argue that more people would do wholesale reverts instead of repairing if they were easier, but a lot of the interesting cases have changesets that mix damage and merit. Cheers, Roland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer apples and pears, deleting an article in WP is much harder and no one can do it alone, we're not discussing the deletion of a tag but the deletion of a complete object including its history (they remain in the db but finding them gets quite complicated), and especially cases where these deletions lead to further inconsistencies (objects referenced in relations) I'm not going to compare a node with one or two tags with a wikipedia article... Again, about deletion, it would not be so 'dramatic' in OSM if it would be easier to restore the element and its history. We have since the beginning an unbalanced power of anyone who can be destructive but restoration is only possible from advanced, skilled users which is a limited resource. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. I think it is correct to assume that they will make mistakes in the beginning but also that they join the project to add new data. If they grow to be seasoned mappers the benefits of having new users will outweigh the inconvenience of occasionally having to correct some mistakes. If iD can help with this then I say: let's make it easier for new people to join and edit the map instead of being afraid they will mess up some data. A better way of preventing mistakes is to prevent first edits being a lonely experience and to increase interaction with local communities instead of making editors more complicated. Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen http://twitter.com/XIVK On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: A better handling of the SAVE cycle might suffice in a lot of cases, rather than a pop-up for each delete? So many nodes will be deleted from the live map ... did you really mean to do that? I think we speak here about newcomers deletings elements 'by accident'. This happened with the older editors as well. Pure vandalism is not prevented by a pop-up or 2 clicks instead of one. And when people have been contacted for their damages, these contributors explained often that they simply did not realize that their changes went to the real database. That's why imho, a pop-up showed only one time on the first save action warning that this is modifying the real map data would be sufficient. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Ben Abelshausen wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. I still think that the general process for new users is not the easiest ... I think it is correct to assume that they will make mistakes in the beginning but also that they join the project to add new data. If they grow to be seasoned mappers the benefits of having new users will outweigh the inconvenience of occasionally having to correct some mistakes. If iD can help with this then I say: let's make it easier for new people to join and edit the map instead of being afraid they will mess up some data. Some of my own comments have been directed to all of the editors and while I can see that Id is trying to address some of them, it's also bringing along unnecessary changes. I've given it another try, but the style sheet is definitely not to my liking when working on data around here. I prefer the cleaner style of P2. Fix processes that are broken, but for the operations I'm carrying out, Id is actually getting in the way and making life more difficult. So I'd question the statement that Id is better ... it has different ways of doing things, but also has assumptions that don't seem to work for me. I've used JOSM as well, but P2 provides me with a good workflow and has more information on the screen such as the grid of possible POI's. I find the limited listing on Id something difficult, and I already know what information I can add ... it may improve as it seems to learn what I am doing, but when I switch tack then I have to find everything again where P2 it's just there. Flash may be a problem going forward, but it's the whole process that seems wrong on Id. A better way of preventing mistakes is to prevent first edits being a lonely experience and to increase interaction with local communities instead of making editors more complicated. Comes back to point one and something which I've said in the past ... the front page for new editors needs to direct them to an appropriate local 'venue' for working in their own language on their own area of the world. An alternative to Facebook might be nice, but we probably have to live with the forums that work in other areas of the world. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. +1 We also have to see deletions as positive contributions a priori when it is really fixing something (e.g. removing an obsolete POI). A better way of preventing mistakes is to prevent first edits being a lonely experience and to increase interaction with local communities instead of making editors more complicated. Mapcraft could inspire iD in this way : a 'chat' window is immediatly available. Having the possibility to talk immediatly with the community present on irc for instance or an iD chat room would also help a lot. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
I love iD, thank you for all the hard work. I say put it live now. I have 2mb internet. It's super fast by Indonesian standards. That's where I live. I worry about the speed. I wish offline tiles were easier. I wish a lot of things, but I am glad for iD. One note about the test site: http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/106.79182/-6.59605 In Chrome it took the site 10 minutes to clear my credentials with OSM before it brought back the request for access. That is not an internet issue as far as I can tell. I have a lot of internet issues, and I'm kind of an expert, and that was not one of them, so, might want to look into that. -- Alex On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. +1 We also have to see deletions as positive contributions a priori when it is really fixing something (e.g. removing an obsolete POI). A better way of preventing mistakes is to prevent first edits being a lonely experience and to increase interaction with local communities instead of making editors more complicated. Mapcraft could inspire iD in this way : a 'chat' window is immediatly available. Having the possibility to talk immediatly with the community present on irc for instance or an iD chat room would also help a lot. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Imagine something we could se as co-mapping... - some chat space (with other mappers nearby or using same language) - a way to share the area you're mapping with someone else who could help you 2013/8/21 Pieren pier...@gmail.com On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com wrote: Sometimes it almost looks like some people here are afraid of new users. +1 We also have to see deletions as positive contributions a priori when it is really fixing something (e.g. removing an obsolete POI). A better way of preventing mistakes is to prevent first edits being a lonely experience and to increase interaction with local communities instead of making editors more complicated. Mapcraft could inspire iD in this way : a 'chat' window is immediatly available. Having the possibility to talk immediatly with the community present on irc for instance or an iD chat room would also help a lot. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Lester Caine wrote: I've given it another try, but the style sheet is definitely not to my liking when working on data around here. I prefer the cleaner style of P2. http://lsces.co.uk/fisheye/view.php?gallery_id=78 to try and explain what I'm talking about ... This was the best contrast I could get on the imagery for id, openstreetview is OK, but the horizontal hatching at the top detracts from viewing the background imagery on both. Hovering over an object it displays clearly in P2, but it's difficult to see the change in highlight on iD until you actually click on a target, and even then the highlighted object is not as crisp as appears in P2. I actually cleaned my glasses to see if it helped! Contrast is important for some users, so grey on grey does not work. I had problems with 'Point' originally because the cross is virtually invisible against the imagery. I did not even realise it was there at first, but personally I'd prefer the blank area to the right displaying the P2 POI menu than having random item details appearing as you hover around. Having to search for something you do not even know about is not helpful? If you can see a set of details to select from it makes life easy - even for experienced mappers. I don't want to have to type in and try and find the right icon. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Agreed. I suspect a lot of mistakes in the OSM database by new mappers would have been backed out by them, could they figure out how to do so. Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. I don't see this as a problem. Deleting is equally important as inserting or moving objects in any editor. When you edit a page in wikipedia, nobody complains that deleting words is so easy, even for a first contribution. What I deeply regret is that OSM website still does not offer to everyone, including newcomers, a fast and easy way to revert an edit once it is saved. Reverting is done in two clicks on wikipedia. This is something important for newcomers. They are less worry to participate if they know that they (or someone else) can revert at any time their mistakes, even after clicking the 'save' button. I have personnally more problems when I see that moving a node is simpler than moving a way, but that's a detail. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Lets get back on track again, ID as default. If we stop nitpicking, I think ID has pretty much all that Potlatch has. In addition to that, it doesn't use non-free software, and is really much easier for beginners to use. For me personaly, it's much more streamlined and faster to use. Try drawing a few roads, and see how the options for tags just present themselves to you, one or two clicks is often enough, whereas in P2 I always find myself in advanced mode, writing every single key and value. I'm for the change. It will be a big initiative for doing more work on the editor, and could bring more developers to the team. It really is a brilliant peace of software. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: t really is a brilliant peace of software. +1 -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
+ 1 as well. OSM is fortunate to have the Id developers on board. Let's move on with the project and go for this change with the current features and performance. I'm sure the Id developers are happy to implement new features in a next release. Cheers, Johan Op woensdag 21 augustus 2013 schreef Clifford Snow (cliff...@snowandsnow.us ): On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: t really is a brilliant peace of software. +1 -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On 8/21/2013 11:59 AM, Johan C wrote: + 1 as well. OSM is fortunate to have the Id developers on board. Here also - I was happy to see a new mapper pop up in this lonely corner of the map and make some quality contributions. The editor on the changesets? iD , so in that case the goal of helping a new mapper was achieved. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Hi Andy, Thanks, this is great. I love having real numbers to discuss. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 4:36 AM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.ukwrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. In an attempt to put some numbers to to the errors made by new mappers debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east) During the last month in this area: P2 iD JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+) Made no newbie errors34 17 3 3 Made at least one newbie error 40 16 1 3 Made more serious errors 5 0 1 0 So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. If you have time, I would love to see more numbers in the future or changeset examples that show what types of errors are most common. John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
John Firebaugh wrote Hi Andy, Thanks, this is great. I love having real numbers to discuss. Indeed, that is great. So thanks for the effort to produce these numbers and allow the discussion to come back to an objective debate. Those numbers speaks towards that iD is no worse than P2, probably better, which is the most important criterion for making iD the default editor. It might still be nice to think about a possibility for a staged introduction (random sub-sample of newly created accounts are set to iD as the default, the rest initially remains at P2) to collect more statistics and eliminate the bias Andy mentioned in the more serious errors. One possible further thing to look at is, if there is a bias in editor retention in either iD or P2 depending on the browser used, given that iDs performance depends on the browser used. Is this information available anywhere though? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774425.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Il giorno 21/ago/2013, alle ore 20:10, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. one might conclude that Josm is the best suggestion for newbies (but there are probably too few numbers in this survey to be sure). Nobody has suggested so far in this thread to make Josm the default, but it could be an option? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, 4. There are concerns that iD (and thus osm.org http://osm.org) will promote Facebook and Twitter, over other social networks. The problem I have with those big share buttons is not that they promote Facebook or Twitter over G+ or other sites but that the (hopefully soon default) editor promotes commercial social sites at all! Those sites to not have you or me or the mapper sharing edits as customers but large advertising networks. We are the product they sell. Featuring their logo in such a prominent way suggests that a new mapper should tweet his edit or post it to facebook to be a good member of our community. I see that as very harmful to our undertaking of liberating data and knowledge from the giants of the web to create a free and open map of the world. Pushing integration with social sites directly undermines our message of you don't have to give all your data to google to see them on a nice map. I guess I should really start a company that openly sells user data to the most evil customers that I can find and demand equal placement in iD just to prove a point. If you really want that feature in iD because you are a stupid I have nothing to hide post-privacy hipster who feels cool if he is a mayor of $somewhere in foursquare, at least hide it behind a neutral share with friends button. It don't have to be plugable or fancy, but don't give it equal footing with view on map. And no I wont stop bitching and complaining no matter if you call me caustic or harmful in private discussions. When I made remarks about the NSA doesn't have to track you, you give all your data to facebook anyway I was considered slightly nuts. Now we learned about prism. When I said I don't want to use google docs for HOT stuff I was considered nuts, but now we've seen that a 5 minute google outage reduces the internet traffic by about 40% percent. We really have to stop using the giant of the internet. And I will continue raising that point even if it makes me feel like Casandra. Despite all that I find iD a very usable editor. I wont abandon JOSM for it, but I wont hessitate to recommend iD either and I really hope that it will be the default editor soon. Just my 2 cents, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Kai Krueger wrote: Toby Murray-2 wrote We aren't trying to make The Perfect Editor here. We are trying to replace an aging editor with something more current. Let us not make perfection the enemy of progress. Although a perfect editor would of course be nice, it isn't really achievable so yes, we don't want to let the perfect be enemy of progress. But we do want to make sure it actually is progress. I think the fundamental problem is 'aging' ... people seem to think that all these nice new wizbangs are progress such as that informationless curved pallet. Now if there were some nice COLOURED icons on it to remind me what each button as then I'd not have to hover over every one. My main problem however is the map display itself! I currently have Id up on one screen and P2 on the other showing the same area of map with openstreetview as a background, and to be honest, the P2 display may seem 'dated' but at least it's crisp and readable. The horizontal hashing and other 'eyecandy' on the Id display make it very difficult to see the details that I could now be tracing. Move to satellite and the 'effect' on my monitor is even more pronounced. I need to switch off the hashing as optically it's distorting the view of the field boundaries below. Click on an area that you want to realign, and that pigging pallet overlays the very lines you want to SEE to move. And I'm with others here, having the 'delete' as the first 'hidden button' is not the safest of places to have it! At the very least a 'do you want to' is essential. But I WILL add here I have the SAME complaint with P2 anyway! There should be a 'do you want to' but with P2 at least it is a positive action to go down to the corner, something right under your mouse is all to easy to hit. How do I drop a simple POI in on Id? The menu on P2 may take up a large area, but simply dragging something suitable onto the map works well for me and is normally the sort of fast update I'm trying to achieve. I've not worked out how to do that yet on Id? It keeps highlighting the landuse area I'm dropping into rather than giving me a new node? OK not sure what was going on then, but now I've found it, but the list of options for nodes is going to be a lot slower to navigate ... pigging monochorme icons again ... and half of the ones I use don't even have their icon (gate for instance). NO ... I'm not finding this an improvement ... P2 has it's faults, but at least it IS usable for the quick editing. Id needs you to know a lot more already to be able to add the sort of simple stuff a novice user will be looking at first :( Add the P2 menus in place of the limited list and that would be an improvement ... with the nice coloured icons ... it makes picking up a group of similar node flags a lot easier! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: (It would be cool if the make square tool would reject the making square of very un-square things like roundabouts, but all our other editors will happily square a circle for you so it would be a bit unfair to demand different from iD I think.) At least for me the make square tool in P2 adjusts only lines which already make an almost right angle and that is indeed cool. But that is just a detail and not a strong reason for keeping P2 as a default editor. Myself I continue to use P2 because I can configure several custom base layers and select them with function keys and because for me P2 draws vectors faster when panning and zooming (Windows 7, Firefox v. 23.0.1) but iD is also good enough. Both editors have their own strong points and I do not hate either of them. I like Merkaartor and JOSM too but perhaps I am on a wrong list with my positive feelings. Well, I admit that the Java applet was not an especially reliable editor. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Lester Caine wrote: NO ... I'm not finding this an improvement ... P2 has it's faults, but at least it IS usable for the quick editing. Id needs you to know a lot more already to be able to add the sort of simple stuff a novice user will be looking at first :( Add the P2 menus in place of the limited list and that would be an improvement ... with the nice coloured icons ... it makes picking up a group of similar node flags a lot easier! Just to expand on that ... I've added a few boundaries and buildings using both editors. On P2 I can draw a line around an area then add lines to create the building detail. In Id I can't get it to recognise the new closed line as an area? And I can't see how to make the building a house or a garage ... so I dropped back to P2 to complete that detail! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Lester Caine wrote: people seem to think that all these nice new wizbangs are progress such as that informationless curved pallet Me again ... *NOW* I'm getting icons on the curved pallet! That was blank while I was playing earlier ... did I just happen to hit something to enable them? Only having the delete button showing for nodes is even more accident prone? ... but while that pallet does get out of the way at times, both it and the other pop-up helps always seem to be just where you want to be moving to and their flashing on and off is more irritating then helpful once you have seen them a couple of times :( And I do need to work out how to get Id to properly handle areas built up by adding detail to existing areas and lines. Taking an existing block and sub dividing into separate buildings is the usual detail I'm adding and while P2 is not ideal, Id does not seem to understand a closed loop at all unless it created it as an area? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
P1 was removed from the list because an absurdly high percentage of new mappers were still choosing it as their first editor, clearly in error. I believe you can still set it as your default editor if you really want to, From: Dave F. [mailto:dave...@madasafish.com] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 3:13 PM To: Toby Murray Cc: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org Thanks for that tip. Although it would be so much easier if it hadn't been remove from the list. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Il giorno 19/ago/2013, alle ore 23:44, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: Well, we could try sending them polite emails, welcoming them to the community, expressing appreciations for their contributions, and constructively suggesting how to improve their future edits. personally I do this, and usually I also recommend they use Josm for their edits ;-) I'd love to recommend iD in the future, but currently despite some visual and practical points on the pro iD side we are not yet there (IMHO) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. In an attempt to put some numbers to to the errors made by new mappers debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east) During the last month in this area: P2 iD JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+) Made no newbie errors34 17 3 3 Made at least one newbie error 40 16 1 3 Made more serious errors 5 0 1 0 Where I've noticed that a mapper used both iD and P2 I've counted them in both columns. Newbie errors on Potlatch include things like nodes duplicating ways, and unjoined ways. Newbie errors on iD include things like unexpected deletions and changing thing X to be thing ywhen thing x still exists. More serious errors are things like doodles (including people trying to draw bike routes using MQ's Potlatch), misinterpreting imagery to draw roads that don't exist / add roads that aren't there and one of the perennial delete things to make printed map nicer. People who have chosen iD or JOSM have chosen a different editor to the default - I suspect that the doodlers aren't making errors because they're using Potlatch; they're doing it because they don't know what OSM _is_. They're the easiest errors to fix, though. FWIW I've not noticed a greater proportion of messed up relations with either P2 or iD. The area that I'm looking at has less of those than e.g. central London, though. This period largely predates relations in the iD UI. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
iD has a wonderful 'tutorial mode', as well as documentation that explains, in detail, how to add POIs and do other actions. Given that iD is not Potlatch, the ways you do these things is not the same as Potlatch, but new users will not have used Potlatch and will use the tutorial to learn the editor, rather than assuming that it does the same thing as Potlatch. And, please, no more all-capitals and !s. I know it's the way you prefer to communicate, but here on talk@ it's already terribly difficult to figure out who's angry (everyone?) and what's yelling and what's normal discussion, so it would be wonderful if you could try to adapt to a less flashy style. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno 19/ago/2013, alle ore 23:44, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: Well, we could try sending them polite emails, welcoming them to the community, expressing appreciations for their contributions, and constructively suggesting how to improve their future edits. personally I do this, and usually I also recommend they use Josm for their edits ;-) I'd love to recommend iD in the future, but currently despite some visual and practical points on the pro iD side we are not yet there (IMHO) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:59:28AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. I say go for it, from all the conversations I've had with new and old (non mailing list) mappers locally the consensus is that iD is a much more accessible tool for newbies and is a pleasure to use. Yes there is still a lot of work to do; we need to move forward and stop looking over our shoulders Ban Potlatch! Cheers Chris -- e: m...@chrisfleming.org m: 07980 214061 w: http://chrisfleming.org/ t: @chrisfl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: It has been claimed often that iD damages relations. Can we somehow substantiate that claim? Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case that involves * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely to be encountered by a new contributor; * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor and that results in a broken relation in iD? In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any) does iD display about the problem? This is a honest question because I haven't researched the claims in depth ... Here's a way I once damaged a relation, and could do it again with iD: There was a section of messed up road. In order to keep the context on screen, I drew the correct road, tagged it as a road, then deleted the squiggle. iD could improve on this by noting I've drawn a line between two ways within the same relation, and asking me what I meant. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is no) On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.orgwrote: It has been claimed often that iD damages relations. Can we somehow substantiate that claim? Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case that involves * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely to be encountered by a new contributor; * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor and that results in a broken relation in iD? In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any) does iD display about the problem? This is a honest question because I haven't researched the claims in depth ... Here's a way I once damaged a relation, and could do it again with iD: There was a section of messed up road. In order to keep the context on screen, I drew the correct road, tagged it as a road, then deleted the squiggle. iD could improve on this by noting I've drawn a line between two ways within the same relation, and asking me what I meant. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
2013/8/20 Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is no) JOSM and Potlatch show directly on the 'via' node that there is something on a junction. That way an editor can see there is something that should maybe be left alone. With ID it's less visible. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is no) It is clear that the project team's sights are set far higher than replicating P2. iD raises the bar, as should any project that wholesale replaces another. Instead the question should be what achievable workflows have a shot at helping starting mappers turn into quality repeat mappers? In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. Particularly on POIs the single lone trash can could be confused with another feature, and it is on top of features one might want to inspect. P2's delete key binding was broader than needed for efficient editing, and iD carried it over equally. Relations are opaque in JOSM and P2: iD has the opportunity to raise the bar and take the mystery out of relations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Given that we're in the process of launching iD, we need to set some basic guidelines so that this conversation actually results in launching iD rather than continues to blue-sky and OT. Thus, for something like 'is iD dangerous to use', it cannot be a question of 'what's the most wonderful way that iD could be safe' since that is infinite, but it should be 'is iD as safe as existing options', because that is finite, and we have finite time. I, like you, love to dream big. That's what the next version is for. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is no) It is clear that the project team's sights are set far higher than replicating P2. iD raises the bar, as should any project that wholesale replaces another. Instead the question should be what achievable workflows have a shot at helping starting mappers turn into quality repeat mappers? In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better delete workflows. Particularly on POIs the single lone trash can could be confused with another feature, and it is on top of features one might want to inspect. P2's delete key binding was broader than needed for efficient editing, and iD carried it over equally. Relations are opaque in JOSM and P2: iD has the opportunity to raise the bar and take the mystery out of relations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:04 AM, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.comwrote: iD 1.1 displays relationship memberships in the sidebar much like P2 does. We plan to add additional functionality (e.g. highlighting routes on the map, visual rendering of turn restrictions) in future versions, but feel that 1.1 makes relations visible enough to sufficiently address the concern of unintentional damage. As has been discussed before, we are not planning to add intrusive Are you sure? warnings to iD. Such second-guessing disrupts legitimate workflows and turns away new users, who typically already feel anxiety about doing something wrong. Having fixed (or helped to fix) damaged relations created by well meaning P2 editors, I think the problem predates iD. An intrusive Are you sure, really sure: newbie! would be intrusive. But that's not the only option. Consider the educational opportunity. A message more on the order of: *Hey, we just noticed that you've edited part of a `relation` for the first time. Relations can be a bit tricky, want to learn more? [YES] [NO] [Don't Bug Me I'm An Expert]* iD is already brim full of helpful little messages, why not for a subjects that are really opaque, like relations (and multipologons)? --- Is there research behind the assertion that messages 'turn away new users'? If that's an assumption, not research, then consider the possibility that new users with 'anxiety about doing something wrong' might in fact feel comforted by a system with safety brakes, training wheels, and parachutes. Something more of a message that *hey, if we notice anything tricky we'll let you know*. Just to test this out I went and damaged a relation using P2, iD and JOSM. It was JOSM that did the best job of warning me what I was about to commit. With iD the relation info was below the fold on the info pane, and without knowing what I was looking for, I would have missed it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Il giorno 18/ago/2013, alle ore 19:04, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: As has been discussed before, we are not planning to add intrusive Are you sure? warnings to iD. Such second-guessing disrupts legitimate workflows and turns away new users, who typically already feel anxiety about doing something wrong. with that approach (letting the users incidentally damage turn restrictions or other relations without warning by deleting members or combining them in a harmful way ) new users will get even more anxious as they will get mailed by others afterwards. Relations are fragile and if they are almost hidden for the mapper a warning should be the minimal precaution (or alternatively don't let iD users do these kind of edits where relations are involved and would be damaged). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: As has been discussed before, we are not planning to add intrusive Are you sure? warnings to iD. Such second-guessing disrupts legitimate workflows and turns away new users, who typically already feel anxiety about doing something wrong. with that approach (letting the users incidentally damage turn restrictions or other relations without warning by deleting members or combining them in a harmful way ) new users will get even more anxious as they will get mailed by others afterwards. Relations are fragile and if they are almost hidden for the mapper a warning should be the minimal precaution (or alternatively don't let iD users do these kind of edits where relations are involved and would be damaged). I used to get irritated by what seemed to be unnecessary warnings, but now I'd prefer to see even more of them. I could make a case for an 'expert' switch to disable them selectively, but that would be something I'd probably leave off. Often the warning is a prompt to cross check what one is doing. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
2013/8/19 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com Relations are fragile and if they are almost hidden for the mapper a warning should be the minimal precaution (or alternatively don't let iD users do these kind of edits where relations are involved and would be damaged). A turn restriction issue was opened on ID Github page 9 months ago, and I commented about preserving existing turn restrictions 5 months ago: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/224#issuecomment-14895836 I still think preserving existing relations should be a priority. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Back to the original question about iD being the default editor: Originally at least part of the thinking behind iD was to have a newbie-friendly editor [0]. As seen before and in this thread, more advanced users want to keep adding functionality, which will tend to make it less simple and friendly. This is understandable for any number of reasons (don't like Flash, know Potlatch 2 isn't being actively developed any longer, don't want to use JOSM, want uniform options across editors, etc). Would it be make sense (and be possible) to have a super-basic version of iD be the default, and have people be able to opt-in to a more advanced version through their user preferences and/or the existing Edit tab dropdown? Maybe when you saved with the basic version, there could be a prompt to try the more advanced version of iD? This may be a pain technically or culturally (main issue being where do you draw the line? but really, would a total newbie need to edit multipolygons, or create turn restrictions, or load custom imagery?). Just thought I'd bring it up. Cheers, Brad [0] from the iD wiki page: *iD* is an OpenStreetMap editorhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editorprogrammed in JavaScript http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:JavaScript (usable directly in the browser) with the aims to be *simple* and *friendly*. On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/8/19 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com Relations are fragile and if they are almost hidden for the mapper a warning should be the minimal precaution (or alternatively don't let iD users do these kind of edits where relations are involved and would be damaged). A turn restriction issue was opened on ID Github page 9 months ago, and I commented about preserving existing turn restrictions 5 months ago: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/224#issuecomment-14895836 I still think preserving existing relations should be a priority. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, On 19.08.2013 15:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: with that approach (letting the users incidentally damage turn restrictions or other relations without warning by deleting members or combining them in a harmful way ) It has been claimed often that iD damages relations. Can we somehow substantiate that claim? Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case that involves * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely to be encountered by a new contributor; * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor and that results in a broken relation in iD? In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any) does iD display about the problem? This is a honest question because I haven't researched the claims in depth and I know that for some users it is already sufficient if they find a totally complex situation which exists about three times in all of OSM and then on top of that construct an unusal maneuvre and then cry foul if the editor exhibits a weakness in that situation. It is clear that allowing a user to inadvertently break something and get nasty emails afterwards is the worst possible user experience we can provide. But I would like to get a feeling about just how likely this is to happen. There's a certain threshold below which it is probably not worth discussing improvements to the editor. If iD has a problem with relations that will, for one in 500 new contributors, lead to them receiving nasty email, being embarrassed by what they did, and leaving the project, then that is a number that would easily be offset by the clear advances in usability that iD brings. If on the other hand this were likely to happen to one in 50 new users then maybe a more diligent approach is required. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi! I have just worked through all the previous posts here and experimented with the test instance in my home turf. The short anwer is: No, I do not believe that ID is in a state to make it the default editor, especially not to welcome newbies. The long answer: I still see very bad performance in Firefox. I noticed that editing has been limited to zoom 16 and higher which is a very crude way to limit the data displayed. But it also makes orientation very difficult when you have to move around. Even when there are not many lines to display, ID remains jumpy, dragging of the map rather results in two jumps for moving a full screen with up to one second delay in denser areas. I agree with the previous posts that ID is not a suitable editor for beginners/as default as long as it presents destructive operations in such a prominent manner. I'm referring to the delete button but also to the make-square, make-round and rotate options. You do not need these to draw streets on top of tracks or aerial imagery, which is the basic start of mapping. I have never used them at all. But they can be very destructive for existing geometry. An expert mode where you can add those operations later might be a good solution. I tried deleting a few things and there was no warning that I was acting destructively. The warning before saving is too general and the list of change objects also does not indicate whether I did something dangerous. I believe that immediate warnings when you do something dangerous (and an expert switch to disable them later) would be very helpful to prevent damage and teach the user how to proceed. What's more, the existing icons would confuse me as a newcomer. For ways, there is a move-around icon (which is useful), if I click on a node, only delete is shown, nothing else. In particular, there is no move-around icon. As a powermapper I know that I can directly drag the node and don't need it, but to a newcomer the absence might suggest that you should rather delete the node with the prominent trashcan and re-create it somewhere else. The wording on the delete button is also misleading. It says: remove this from the map. But that is not what it does. It deletes it from the database, not from any particular map. This encourages the common misunderstanding that OSM is a map and of course unnecessary deletions. On the other hand, some very useful functions seem to be missing. Or at least they are not offered as icons and I couldn't figure out how to do it. One is click on end node of line and continue drawing it (click on node in P2). Another is copy tags from similar way (r in P2). There is some relation handling, but the visibility of relations is still insufficient. They are shown in the sidebar, but with all instances I tried, the normal tags took up all the visible space in the bar and you had do scroll down to read anything about relations. As they are not marked on the map in any way, they are still invisible to the unsuspecting user. If you don't know that there must be a relation there and directly look for it, they remain totally invisible. I found the handling of multipolygons very confusing. I clicked a MP area and the sidebar showed Multipolygon. Pretending that I didn't know what that is I clicked i, only to be rewarded with there is no documentation for this key. I deleted some of the members with the message not downloaded and ID accepted that without warning. I see no way a newcomer had any chance to use this. I agree with the previous posts that OSM should not create a connection to Facebook, Twitter or any other social service without conscious choice by the user or in a way that suggests that it is an integral part of OSM or that membership there is required in any way. A good solution might be a plain share link on the save page that leads you to a setting where you can opt-in to your favorite services if you like to. Or maybe you could detect the Facebook session and tracking cookies and show it the button only if you have an active session. But currently it looks like OSM is simply advertising for Facebook. bye, Nop -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774123.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:27 PM, NopMap ekkeh...@gmx.de wrote: I still see very bad performance in Firefox. I noticed that editing has been limited to zoom 16 and higher which is a very crude way to limit the data displayed. But it also makes orientation very difficult when you have to move around. Even when there are not many lines to display, ID remains jumpy, dragging of the map rather results in two jumps for moving a full screen with up to one second delay in denser areas. Hey there - - FF version - area you tested - OS Would be great to know. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 6:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: with that approach (letting the users incidentally damage turn restrictions or other relations without warning by deleting members or combining them in a harmful way ) new users will get even more anxious as they will get mailed by others afterwards. Well, we could try sending them polite emails, welcoming them to the community, expressing appreciations for their contributions, and constructively suggesting how to improve their future edits. John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. To try and summarize key points, on topic of is iD ready to take over from P2... 1. Potlatch is not maintained, and seems unlikely to be maintained. iD is the only presently viable way forward. 2. iD is quite slow on older systems, and a suitable fallback to P2 has not yet been shown. 3. There are concerns about how cushioned the editing experience is: if iD makes new users feel sufficiently comfortable they won't do damage, and if iD protects (or at least warns) enough about potentially damaging activity. iD is presumed to be more suitable for new mappers: that assertion has not been definitely proven yet the chance that assertion is correct makes some experienced editors nervous. 4. There are concerns that iD (and thus osm.org) will promote Facebook and Twitter, over other social networks. 5. There are concerns that iD makes deletion of features more prominent in the UI, compared to prior editors. 6. At least one user is concerned that anonymous bug reports are not possible at https://github.com/systemed/iD 7. There are concerns that in simplifying the editing experience (see #2) some complex topics are not explained (e.g. relations, multipologons). 8. Social features, to help integrate a new mapper into community or correct editing mistakes, are not present yet. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Nop, I'm referring to the delete button but also to the make-square, make-round and rotate options. You do not need these to draw streets on top of tracks or aerial imagery, which is the basic start of mapping. Quite a few people start with tracing buildings nowadays, a task for which this functionality is very important. By no means should tracing of buildings be an expert task! (It would be cool if the make square tool would reject the making square of very un-square things like roundabouts, but all our other editors will happily square a circle for you so it would be a bit unfair to demand different from iD I think.) I tried deleting a few things and there was no warning that I was acting destructively. The warning before saving is too general and the list of change objects also does not indicate whether I did something dangerous. Our current entry-level editor, Potlatch 2, doesn't warn that you're acting destructively when deleting objects either. A couple good ideas have been floated about reducing the trash-can prominence in iD; don't you think that might already solve the problem? I believe that immediate warnings when you do something dangerous (and an expert switch to disable them later) would be very helpful to prevent damage and teach the user how to proceed. I think one shouldn't be religious about warnings/questions/popup messages - sure it's a UI challenge to do them well but simply not doing them at all, ever, doesn't automatically mean you have a good UI. However, a pop-up message every time you have deleted something would surely be stretching it! -- Going off on a tangent here and leaving the scope of immediate iD improvements - someone else has posted that a while ago in a different discussion. Maybe we are far too obsessed with trying to make sure nothing is ever broken in an edit session. Maybe we should focus more on post-processing of edits. Give users the option of saying I'd like someone else to review my edit. If user does that, a special tag (review=yes) is set on the changeset. A list/map of such changesets for review could then be generated and processed by users who are interested in helping. Before too long we'll have feature where changesets can be commented/discussed which would go nicely with this. What's more, the existing icons would confuse me as a newcomer. Then again, only real newcomers count in that department - of course *my* first time with iD was confusing because I was used to other editors, and it will have been no different with you. I agree with the previous posts that OSM should not create a connection to Facebook, Twitter or any other social service without conscious choice by the user There seems to be a potential solution to this - making these things into post-edit plugins that the user would activate. The open question is whether the current options (FB, Twitter) should be shelved until plugins are available, or kept live until plugins are available. There's a github issue here https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1706 - tmcw has already said that the issue is low priority on his side but of course anybody else with Javascript proficiency for whom this is a high priority could chip in with a pull request any time! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: -- Going off on a tangent here and leaving the scope of immediate iD improvements - someone else has posted that a while ago in a different discussion. Maybe we are far too obsessed with trying to make sure nothing is ever broken in an edit session. Maybe we should focus more on post-processing of edits. Give users the option of saying I'd like someone else to review my edit. If user does that, a special tag (review=yes) is set on the changeset. A list/map of such changesets for review could then be generated and processed by users who are interested in helping. Before too long we'll have feature where changesets can be commented/discussed which would go nicely with this. +100 on this. OSM editing for a first timer is lonely. There's no evidence anyone in the project cares until you make a mistake (then you get pillored). Mistakes themselves are not a problem in a system with undo. But in a database with millions of nodes, something has to focus checking, else bad edits just drop as needles into the haystack. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
We aren't trying to make The Perfect Editor here. We are trying to replace an aging editor with something more current. Let us not make perfection the enemy of progress. Of course there are still improvements to be made but iD is definitely a fantastic bit of code. We can keep bikeshedding it until the cows come home but at some point a switch needs to be thrown. Some specific responses: On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 4:27 PM, NopMap ekkeh...@gmx.de wrote: I agree with the previous posts that ID is not a suitable editor for beginners/as default as long as it presents destructive operations in such a prominent manner. I'm referring to the delete button but also to the make-square, make-round and rotate options. You do not need these to draw streets on top of tracks or aerial imagery, which is the basic start of mapping. I have never used them at all. But they can be very destructive for existing geometry. An expert mode where you can add those operations later might be a good solution. So basically, you don't like the radial context menu. That is mostly a UI design decision. These operations are not all that much less prominent in P2. They were just in a box down in the corner of the map instead of at-the-ready under your mouse cursor. Initially I wasn't sold on the radial menus but I think they work reasonably well here. Every once in a while they get in the way of something I want to select but most of the time they are pretty handy. I tried deleting a few things and there was no warning that I was acting destructively. The warning before saving is too general and the list of change objects also does not indicate whether I did something dangerous. I believe that immediate warnings when you do something dangerous (and an expert switch to disable them later) would be very helpful to prevent damage and teach the user how to proceed. This is identical behavior to P2. I just tried deleting ways that were members of turn restriction and bus route relations in P2. No warning, just silent deletion. This is not a reason that would prevent iD from replacing P2. The wording on the delete button is also misleading. It says: remove this from the map. But that is not what it does. It deletes it from the database, not from any particular map. This encourages the common misunderstanding that OSM is a map and of course unnecessary deletions. So what is your suggestion for new text on this button? You can't explain the difference between a map rendering and a geodatabase in a tooltip. On the other hand, some very useful functions seem to be missing. Or at least they are not offered as icons and I couldn't figure out how to do it. One is click on end node of line and continue drawing it (click on node in P2). Another is copy tags from similar way (r in P2). You just select the line tool and click on the end of a way. It automatically continues the existing way. I will concede that this isn't exactly obvious. Do you have a suggestion to make it better? I think the P2 behavior would be inconsistent with the rest of the UI in iD. Maybe just make the tooltip say Add or extend... instead of just Add? There is some relation handling, but the visibility of relations is still insufficient. They are shown in the sidebar, but with all instances I tried, the normal tags took up all the visible space in the bar and you had do scroll down to read anything about relations. As they are not marked on the map in any way, they are still invisible to the unsuspecting user. If you don't know that there must be a relation there and directly look for it, they remain totally invisible. Again, this is pretty similar to current P2 behavior and not something that should block iD from replacing P2 as the default. I think P2 does display some relation types slightly more prominently. But for example turning restrictions are rendered on the map as a somewhat meaningless icon on the via node. Other than that you have to switch to Advanced mode to see most relation information. This is even further removed from visibility than at the bottom of the side panel in iD. I agree with the previous posts that OSM should not create a connection to Facebook, Twitter or any other social service without conscious choice by the user or in a way that suggests that it is an integral part of OSM or that membership there is required in any way. A good solution might be a plain share link on the save page that leads you to a setting where you can opt-in to your favorite services if you like to. Or maybe you could detect the Facebook session and tracking cookies and show it the button only if you have an active session. But currently it looks like OSM is simply advertising for Facebook. I view having to click on the buttons as sufficient opt-in. I mean seriously... who in their right mind would think that a share on Facebook button is some kind of official endorsement of Facebook by OSMF? There are share,
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On 20 August 2013 07:57, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I think one shouldn't be religious about warnings/questions/popup messages - sure it's a UI challenge to do them well but simply not doing them at all, ever, doesn't automatically mean you have a good UI. However, a pop-up message every time you have deleted something would surely be stretching it! No, I don't think it is, as long as there is a Don't show me this message again mechanism in the message itself, or alternatively you could just show it once. Think of it like tutorial mode in a game, turned on by default for beginners. The computer game industry has spent a lot of time working out how to get casual users up to speed on new software, some of their techniques are worth looking at. -- Going off on a tangent here and leaving the scope of immediate iD improvements - someone else has posted that a while ago in a different discussion. Maybe we are far too obsessed with trying to make sure nothing is ever broken in an edit session. Maybe we should focus more on post-processing of edits. Give users the option of saying I'd like someone else to review my edit. If user does that, a special tag (review=yes) is set on the changeset. A list/map of such changesets for review could then be generated and processed by users who are interested in helping. Before too long we'll have feature where changesets can be commented/discussed which would go nicely with this. Yes - and if some-one asks for a review, we should ask the reviewer to send a response - even if it just says every thing looks OK to me In fact, I'd go further - in whatever mechanism we are using to get the changesets that need reviewing, I'd also add the option to review any new users first (few?) changeset that did not ask for review. We don't necessarily need to respond to these, but a mechanism to easily identify ones that haven't been reviewed would be good. I've seen this idea work in other crowd sourced efforts. As long as we are upfront about the fact that your first few efforts might be sanity checked, people don't seem to mind. Stephen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: It has been claimed often that iD damages relations. Can we somehow substantiate that claim? Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case that involves * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely to be encountered by a new contributor; * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor and that results in a broken relation in iD? In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any) does iD display about the problem? The two examples that are most commonly given are deleting then re-drawing (rather than adjusting in place) a section of road that is a member of a route relation, and merging or splitting ways in that are members of a turn restriction. Of these two, the first is more likely to meet your criteria, route relations being much more common than turn restrictions, and merging ways being somewhat uncommon of an action for a new contributor. I haven't actually seen changesets that exhibit either of these cases, however. I don't have any empirical data to back it up, but my hunch is that they occur significantly less frequently than one would expect given the level of concern over them. Comparing iD to P2: * P2 displays colored strokes for ways that are members of route relations; iD does not. We plan to implement this eventually for iD, but until then one could argue that this makes route relations slightly more visible in P2. * But on the other hand, relation memberships are only displayed in the advanced tab of the P2 sidebar, whereas they are always visible in iD. * Neither editor has a warning when you delete a way that is a member of a route relation. * Neither editor has a warning when you merge a way that is a member of a turn restriction. * iD displays modified relations in the save UI. P2 does not. * iD just does the right thinghttps://github.com/systemed/iD/blob/e631faa185358b8b85732d46f1734881342dc4e1/test/spec/actions/split.js#L401-L496when you split ways that are members of a turn restriction. P2 does not. I think that overall, users will be less likely to accidentally damage relations with iD than with P2. John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
brycenesbitt wrote 5. There are concerns that iD makes deletion of features more prominent in the UI, compared to prior editors. In all this discussion if the delete feature, or rectanglify is too prominent, I always wonder why people don't just undo the accidental mistake? Even as an experienced mapper I have made enough accidental mistakes by e.g. deleting the wrong thing, or moving whole land areas instead of just a node, or the editor did something I did not expect it to do or I did something else destructively by mistake. And I have done this in all the editors I have used including JOSM. However, I hope that I have always noticed that what I just did was unintentional and hit the undo button. (In that respect I am rather glad OSM got rid of the live edit mode of Potlatch where the option of undo, or in the worst case just close the editor without saving, was not possible) So one line of questioning should be: Do people not notice what they have done? Do people intend to do those actions, because they did not understand that this was wrong? Do people not find the undo button? Does the editor too often do things they didn't expect and got so frustrated that they saved the broken result anyway? Apart from in the last case, reducing the prominence of the delete and rectanglify buttons likely won't really help. Both delete and rectanglify really are pretty basic functions that any new user is likely to seek out, so hiding it isn't going to help. Amongst the people who do new user training and therefore have a great opportunity to observe newbies and understand where they go wrong, has anyone observed this specific issue of unintended deletions getting into the DB? Do they have any insights as to what went wrong in the human-editor interaction? Are there other user interface changes possible to make people more aware of what they are doing? I.e. make sure that e.g. deleting something is visually obvious? Perhaps the currently selected object needs to be bright yellow, in which case any changes to that object becomes much more prominent and you can't just accidentally do something to the object without noticing? This may well even be helpful to experienced mappers to make sure they know what is going on. Particularly if you have an inteligent editor which tries to guess what you wanted to do and automatically do it for you. On the other hand, is this really an issue with iD? Or does it happen just as much in other editors and a small error rate is simply inevitable in a collaborative project like OSM? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774154.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Toby Murray-2 wrote We aren't trying to make The Perfect Editor here. We are trying to replace an aging editor with something more current. Let us not make perfection the enemy of progress. Although a perfect editor would of course be nice, it isn't really achievable so yes, we don't want to let the perfect be enemy of progress. But we do want to make sure it actually is progress. Pretty much all of the people discussing here how newbies interact with editors are actually experienced mappers. Once you have gained a certain level of experience for a while, it is really quite difficult to put your self in the shoes of a newcommer and understand how they see the world. Somethings you might think are complicated and try and thoroughly explain (or hide the complexity) might not be that difficult and newbies might find it condescendingly dumbed down, other things you might not even have considered as a point of confusion totally baffles a newcommer. E.g. is the sentence on the new welcome page An editor is a program or website you can use to edit the map blindingly obvious, misleadingly simplified, or an important relevant piece of information to newbies? It would be great if we could have some actual data comparing how P2 (the current default editor) performs against iD. Is iD already an overall improvement? Or do the remaining issues like performance in Firefox or relations support totally overshadow the benefits of iD? Perhaps we could have another go at thinking about A/B testing. I.e. have at random some people get iD as default during signup and some new signups still have P2 as default. Then after a while we can track certain statistics and see if there are significant, measurable differences and make an informed objective decision (rather than a biased subjective one). Of cause it isn't easy to come up with good summery statistics. But things like % of people who signup saving at least one edit. % of people who do more than one editing session, % of people who get (angry) mails from other mappers might give a good initial indication of overall how one editor performs compared to the other. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774160.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, Since everybody is pilling onto this, here is my 2 cents. I find the P2 editor completely unusable, it is too slow, its is very hard to use, and requires me to enable a completely insecure plugin to run. I would not be involved in the project if I did not discover JOSM shortly after starting. It is not like P2 is a joy to use. I look around my area and there are 100's of people that made an account and either made no changes or just one change and left. The map is not even close to being completed or perfect. I would be *delighted* to fix a couple broken relations or remap something that was deleted by mistake, if we could get more mappers in my area. We need more people mapping more than anything else. ID's first impressions are so much better than P2, it is a no-brainier, make it the default. Do it now. Also, for what its worth, I have fixed more new mapper mistakes done in P2 than ID since ID went live. Jason On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 2:59 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. Refer to the previous thread In the works: iD 1.1 for details on that release. The relevant GitHub pull request is here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/453 It is likely that this pull request will be merged (i.e. accepted and incorporated into the OSM web site) in the near future unless there are important reasons not to. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: But perhaps most critically of all, before iD becomes the default, are the issues of damaging relations and oneway=yes tagged ways: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1461 https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/299 iD 1.1 displays relationship memberships in the sidebar much like P2 does. We plan to add additional functionality (e.g. highlighting routes on the map, visual rendering of turn restrictions) in future versions, but feel that 1.1 makes relations visible enough to sufficiently address the concern of unintentional damage. As has been discussed before, we are not planning to add intrusive Are you sure? warnings to iD. Such second-guessing disrupts legitimate workflows and turns away new users, who typically already feel anxiety about doing something wrong. With regards to way reversal, as outlined in the issue you linked, we believe iD's behavior is correct and optimal. If you have a specific concern that hasn't been discussed, please raise it on the issue tracker. Otherwise, again, let's avoid rehashing the previous discussion. Thanks, John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On 16.08.2013 15:39, Tom MacWright wrote: Hi all, Now as ever is a good time to post bug reports and suggestions to the issue tracker, where developers can see, act, and respond to them: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues Another website with another login and no option for anonymous reports. Why is it not using trac.osm.org or at least some OSM domain ? Sorry, I usually do not use ID but I do reporting JOSM bugs. The two issues where mentioned the last time we were talking about ID on this list and if people are either developing or testing they should have noticed already. If you have any question as far as 'what is in the latest version of iD' or 'is X fixed or not', you can as always, use the testing instance that has the absolute latest code to find out yourself: http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/-77.02271/38.90085 This instance is really slow with iceweasel ! The two issues are not fixed ! Why didn't you mention this ? Forward/backward/left/right are established prefixes, values and roles and I expect developers to know about it, especially if the software is quite new. Also, as always, it's a great time to be objective and constructive in your criticism. Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! Please, fully support forward/backward/left/right as part of the key and value, and appropriate adjust them when changing direction of a way and combining ways. Forward/backward as roles need to be adjusted, as well, with these two actions. As long as this is not fixed, deny to combine or change directions on any way. Thanks a lot ! Cheers colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! This has come up before. Where should this action button move? Or should there be an alert message? How to resolve this with pro users who get angry with how hidden or alert-messaged the functionality is? Would welcome feedback here beyond the simple negative. For what it's worth, the Delete key which is mapped in JOSM and P2 as well, is also pretty easy to hit, and the trash icon in JOSM is even larger than the trash in iD, just positioned differently. Forward/backward/left/right are established prefixes, values and roles and I expect developers to know about it, especially if the software is quite new. Please search for, link to, or comment on an issue. Here it is: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/299 We cannot rehash and respond to all issues in iD, without context, on every thread that relates to it. Please search and use the issue tracker for bugs, as you would do with any other open source project. Tom On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 9:07 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: On 16.08.2013 15:39, Tom MacWright wrote: Hi all, Now as ever is a good time to post bug reports and suggestions to the issue tracker, where developers can see, act, and respond to them: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues Another website with another login and no option for anonymous reports. Why is it not using trac.osm.org or at least some OSM domain ? Sorry, I usually do not use ID but I do reporting JOSM bugs. The two issues where mentioned the last time we were talking about ID on this list and if people are either developing or testing they should have noticed already. If you have any question as far as 'what is in the latest version of iD' or 'is X fixed or not', you can as always, use the testing instance that has the absolute latest code to find out yourself: http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/-77.02271/38.90085 This instance is really slow with iceweasel ! The two issues are not fixed ! Why didn't you mention this ? Forward/backward/left/right are established prefixes, values and roles and I expect developers to know about it, especially if the software is quite new. Also, as always, it's a great time to be objective and constructive in your criticism. Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! Please, fully support forward/backward/left/right as part of the key and value, and appropriate adjust them when changing direction of a way and combining ways. Forward/backward as roles need to be adjusted, as well, with these two actions. As long as this is not fixed, deny to combine or change directions on any way. Thanks a lot ! Cheers colliar ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Il giorno 17/ago/2013, alle ore 15:07, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com ha scritto: As long as this is not fixed, deny to combine or change directions on any way. for combining ways there seems to be another quite important issue regarding turn restrictions: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1512 and there is the delete way that is in a relation without notifying the user problem: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1461 All of these tend to put risk of data loss to regions with relations, but completely hidden for the mapper. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On 17.08.2013 15:26, Tom MacWright wrote: Hey Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! This has come up before. Where should this action button move? Or should there be an alert message? How to resolve this with pro users who get angry with how hidden or alert-messaged the functionality is? Would welcome feedback here beyond the simple negative. * Have it placed in some menu/panel but not in the centre. * Power user can always use keyboard shortcuts. Al * The alert message needs a checkbox with the option to disable it for the session. For what it's worth, the Delete key which is mapped in JOSM and P2 as well, is also pretty easy to hit, and the trash icon in JOSM is even larger than the trash in iD, just positioned differently. Sorry, I do not find any delete button in JOSM except in the main menu edit. Delete mode is only available in expert modus. Seems to me you misunderstood us. We are talking about delete object. Forward/backward/left/right are established prefixes, values and roles and I expect developers to know about it, especially if the software is quite new. Please search for, link to, or comment on an issue. Here it is: https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/299 Was closed but never fully implemented ! The link to the JOSM is mentioned but the source what not read carefully. Thanks a lot for respecting mappers' work ! colliar P.S.: A possibility to turn of the background is useful. Do not think people understand that they need to use an empty sting as custom server to disable it. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Please, do not offer a delete function that prominent ! This has come up before. Where should this action button move? Or should there be an alert message? How to resolve this with pro users who get angry with how hidden or alert-messaged the functionality is? Would welcome feedback here beyond the simple negative. What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon to make sure a user didn't accidentally click the icon. And at the same time only showing a tooltip on single clicks: Are you sure you want to delete this item? Double click to delete. That way power-users can go on with their deletions without a substantial barrier, but newbies are much less likely to accidentially delete things. Variations: Require shift-click or crtl-/option-click on the delete button. I know, this isn't an already well established UI pattern, though. :/ Cheers. Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hey, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? I think it depends on the individual which editor fits to whom. I met several people who know how to work with GUIs but are not familiar with OSM. All had no problem getting along with JOSM right away and some where looking for features like filter, purge, export to file/gpx and printing. The international student projects on several highschool across Europe did only use JOSM and it work, too. A short description of iD, Potlatch2, JOSM and Merkaartor with links would be nice. Cheers Colliar On 16.08.2013 08:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. Refer to the previous thread In the works: iD 1.1 for details on that release. The relevant GitHub pull request is here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/453 It is likely that this pull request will be merged (i.e. accepted and incorporated into the OSM web site) in the near future unless there are important reasons not to. Bye Frederik signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 04:34:37PM +0200, colliar wrote: Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? Because we don't want to make it easier, not harder for new users. And the new users don't have any information to base their decision on. Nobody is reading any kind of info programs give you anyway. Giving them enough information to make an actual informed decision is just going to put them off. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? That's a question for another thread, but the answer is likely to be 'reasonable defaults'. Tom On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:34 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: Hey, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? I think it depends on the individual which editor fits to whom. I met several people who know how to work with GUIs but are not familiar with OSM. All had no problem getting along with JOSM right away and some where looking for features like filter, purge, export to file/gpx and printing. The international student projects on several highschool across Europe did only use JOSM and it work, too. A short description of iD, Potlatch2, JOSM and Merkaartor with links would be nice. Cheers Colliar On 16.08.2013 08:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. Refer to the previous thread In the works: iD 1.1 for details on that release. The relevant GitHub pull request is here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/453 It is likely that this pull request will be merged (i.e. accepted and incorporated into the OSM web site) in the near future unless there are important reasons not to. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Users can already decide in their profile, so we're talking more about a default by default... 2013/8/17 Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org: Hi, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? That's a question for another thread, but the answer is likely to be 'reasonable defaults'. Tom On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:34 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: Hey, Why do we set a default editor right from the beginning and do not let the user decide ? I think it depends on the individual which editor fits to whom. I met several people who know how to work with GUIs but are not familiar with OSM. All had no problem getting along with JOSM right away and some where looking for features like filter, purge, export to file/gpx and printing. The international student projects on several highschool across Europe did only use JOSM and it work, too. A short description of iD, Potlatch2, JOSM and Merkaartor with links would be nice. Cheers Colliar On 16.08.2013 08:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. Refer to the previous thread In the works: iD 1.1 for details on that release. The relevant GitHub pull request is here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/453 It is likely that this pull request will be merged (i.e. accepted and incorporated into the OSM web site) in the near future unless there are important reasons not to. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote: Users can already decide in their profile, so we're talking more about a default by default... better say the default for newcomers Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Martin Raifer tyr@gmail.com wrote: What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon I would prefere a popup window coming only the first time someone use it, saying be carefull, you will really delete something in the real database if you save your work or something like that. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
iD has always had a clear message to this direction every time any user saves: The changes you upload as tmcw http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tmcw will be visible on all maps that use OpenStreetMap data. https://cloudup.com/ckQTglHaKYJ On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Martin Raifer tyr@gmail.com wrote: What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon I would prefere a popup window coming only the first time someone use it, saying be carefull, you will really delete something in the real database if you save your work or something like that. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Maybe a short summary like: you have added xxx objects, modified yyy object and deleted zzz objects would help in this dialog ? 2013/8/17 Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org iD has always had a clear message to this direction every time any user saves: The changes you upload as tmcw http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tmcw will be visible on all maps that use OpenStreetMap data. https://cloudup.com/ckQTglHaKYJ On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Martin Raifer tyr@gmail.com wrote: What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon I would prefere a popup window coming only the first time someone use it, saying be carefull, you will really delete something in the real database if you save your work or something like that. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Please, as I mentioned before: you can just use iD and see for yourself. There's no point in guessing what's in the box when you can just scoot over to http://openstreetmap.us/iD/master/#background=Bingmap=20.00/-77.02271/38.90085 And see for yourself. That is to say, we already have a listing of created/deleted/modified objects, as well as warnings when, for instance, users delete a lot of things. One could find this out by going to the URL above and seeing for oneself. https://cloudup.com/cCy2e6ruPBY On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.frwrote: Maybe a short summary like: you have added xxx objects, modified yyy object and deleted zzz objects would help in this dialog ? 2013/8/17 Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org iD has always had a clear message to this direction every time any user saves: The changes you upload as tmcwhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tmcw will be visible on all maps that use OpenStreetMap data. https://cloudup.com/ckQTglHaKYJ On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Martin Raifer tyr@gmail.com wrote: What about requiring double clicks on the delete icon I would prefere a popup window coming only the first time someone use it, saying be carefull, you will really delete something in the real database if you save your work or something like that. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: And see for yourself. Ok. No special warning if you delete one element. And most of newcomers do small changes for a try. But I was extremetely surprise to see twitter and facebook after the save action. Is OSM still an open data project mainly driven by open source applications ? Are we really moving to the commercial side of the internet ? I have no words to express my shock (I have but it would censored). Please, move that away from the main site. Keep it on your local deployment in osm.us if you like. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
I actually love the social features in iD. I like being able to share on Facebook that I've just edited my hometown. I think it's a great way to start conversations around OSM and share an interest of mine with my friends, as well as raise general awareness of the project. Obviously not everyone uses those social platforms, which is perfectly fine, but I think having the sharing option built in is a great feature. On Aug 17, 2013 5:29 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: And see for yourself. Ok. No special warning if you delete one element. And most of newcomers do small changes for a try. But I was extremetely surprise to see twitter and facebook after the save action. Is OSM still an open data project mainly driven by open source applications ? Are we really moving to the commercial side of the internet ? I have no words to express my shock (I have but it would censored). Please, move that away from the main site. Keep it on your local deployment in osm.us if you like. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
And most of newcomers do small changes for a try. If we're going to continue to assume that newcomers are dumb and destructive, disabling new user signups would do the trick better than subtly judging them and handicapping applications that empower them. But I was extremetely surprise to see twitter and facebook after the save action. Moving on to more issues, I guess? Anyway, like everything else you've brought up, you could have and should have searched the issue tracker, and you would have found: * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1687 * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1452 * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1571 * https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1038 On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: And see for yourself. Ok. No special warning if you delete one element. And most of newcomers do small changes for a try. But I was extremetely surprise to see twitter and facebook after the save action. Is OSM still an open data project mainly driven by open source applications ? Are we really moving to the commercial side of the internet ? I have no words to express my shock (I have but it would censored). Please, move that away from the main site. Keep it on your local deployment in osm.us if you like. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
