Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Axil Axil]

>From wikipedia::

"Filing by other than inventor: An entity can file an
application on behalf of an inventor who assigned or is under an
obligation to assign the invention rights to the entity (or if the
entity otherwise has financial interest in the invention), without
seeking the inventor's execution of the application. However,

*any patentthat issues belongs to the inventor, absent a written assignment
from the inventor or inventor's estate to the entity*."


It was permitted to file a patent application without an inventor signature
even before the recent AIA changes to the law. It was a little bit harder,
but still possible.

The significance of IH's pursuing patent filings on e-Cat technology goes
to the credibility of their statement saying they have never substantiated
Mr. Rossi's claims. Because if that statement is true, then their filing of
e-Cat technology-based patent applications with the USPTO and the
International Bureau , with knowledge that the tech did not work, would be
something in my book as "wrong." And with possible consequences.


Applicants and their patent attorneys must be candid with the patent
office. If they aren't, there are consequences. If I.H.  has never been
able to substantiate the claims, and publicly state as much in a lawsuit,
and yet you submitted patent applications on those claims, that is a
problem with candor before the USPTO.

Any person who contributed to the conception of the invention must be named
as an inventor. If Mr. Rossi contributed nothing to Brillouin's invention,
then he must not be listed as an inventor, and would have no ownership
interest in it. But if Brillouin derived information through IH from Mr.
Rossi, then there would be a problem (for IH and Brillouin).

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> I.H. has done nothing wrong. I.H. has simply set up a business and an R&D
> plan that the new changes in the patent laws have made possible.
>
> It goes like this. Acquire as many patents and ideas as possible, mix,
> match, and blend them together, put them in an innovation blender, and
> produce a hybrid technology that is better than the sum of all your patent
> acquisitions from your stable of inventors.
>
> Rossi being from the old country may not like this new way of doing
> business in America, but the companies in the U.S. have paid the
> politicians handsomely for these changes in the IP handling laws and now
> they want to use the laws to their full potential.
>
> When you make your living as a snake charmer, you must recognize that
> there is a possibility of being struck.
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Craig Haynie 
> wrote:
>
>> >>>He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. The
>> people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare Rossi's
>> evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are better at
>> calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.
>>
>> Does the license agreement look like IH can interpret it? It reads as
>> though the ERV certifies that the device complied with a set of
>> specifications. If it did, then the ERV certifies it.
>>
>> Section 5. Guaranteed Performance.
>>
>> "The ERV (or another party acceptable to the Company and Leonardo) will
>> be engaged to confirm in writing the Guaranteed Performance."
>>
>> I don't see where IH has the authority under the agreement to make any
>> kind of judgment on the report.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2016 10:37 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>> a.ashfield < a.ashfi...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You write.  "I know how the people at I.H. do it,"
>>> How do you know that?
>>
>>
>> As I said, I have met with them and discussed this with them.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I doubt anyone who writes about this story knows the players better than
>>> Mats Lewan.   I judge him technically competent.
>>
>>
>> He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. The
>> people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare Rossi's
>> evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are better at
>> calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.
>>
>> I am not talking about personality, motivation, or anything else. I have
>> narrowed this down to one question. Who is better at evaluating
>> calorimetry? In my opinion, I.H. is, but I could be wrong.
>>
>> I take the two press releases at face value. I am assuming that Rossi
>> means what he says, and I.H. means what they say. If I.H. actually thought
>> the machine works, they would be crazy not to pay him the $89 million.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I get the feeling Rossi simply doesn't care about making a foolproof
>>> demo.
>>
>>
>> He must do this if he wants the $89 million. That is what is stipulated
>> in the contract.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Axil Axil]

I.H. has done nothing wrong. I.H. has simply set up a business and an R&D
plan that the new changes in the patent laws have made possible.

It goes like this. Acquire as many patents and ideas as possible, mix,
match, and blend them together, put them in an innovation blender, and
produce a hybrid technology that is better than the sum of all your patent
acquisitions from your stable of inventors.

Rossi being from the old country may not like this new way of doing
business in America, but the companies in the U.S. have paid the
politicians handsomely for these changes in the IP handling laws and now
they want to use the laws to their full potential.

When you make your living as a snake charmer, you must recognize that there
is a possibility of being struck.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Craig Haynie 
wrote:

> >>>He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. The
> people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare Rossi's
> evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are better at
> calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.
>
> Does the license agreement look like IH can interpret it? It reads as
> though the ERV certifies that the device complied with a set of
> specifications. If it did, then the ERV certifies it.
>
> Section 5. Guaranteed Performance.
>
> "The ERV (or another party acceptable to the Company and Leonardo) will be
> engaged to confirm in writing the Guaranteed Performance."
>
> I don't see where IH has the authority under the agreement to make any
> kind of judgment on the report.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On 04/10/2016 10:37 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> a.ashfield < a.ashfi...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>> You write.  "I know how the people at I.H. do it,"
>> How do you know that?
>
>
> As I said, I have met with them and discussed this with them.
>
>
>
>> I doubt anyone who writes about this story knows the players better than
>> Mats Lewan.   I judge him technically competent.
>
>
> He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. The
> people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare Rossi's
> evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are better at
> calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.
>
> I am not talking about personality, motivation, or anything else. I have
> narrowed this down to one question. Who is better at evaluating
> calorimetry? In my opinion, I.H. is, but I could be wrong.
>
> I take the two press releases at face value. I am assuming that Rossi
> means what he says, and I.H. means what they say. If I.H. actually thought
> the machine works, they would be crazy not to pay him the $89 million.
>
>
>
>> I get the feeling Rossi simply doesn't care about making a foolproof demo.
>
>
> He must do this if he wants the $89 million. That is what is stipulated in
> the contract.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Craig Haynie]

>>>He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. 
The people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare 
Rossi's evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are better 
at calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.


Does the license agreement look like IH can interpret it? It reads as 
though the ERV certifies that the device complied with a set of 
specifications. If it did, then the ERV certifies it.


Section 5. Guaranteed Performance.

"The ERV (or another party acceptable to the Company and Leonardo) will 
be engaged to confirm in writing the Guaranteed Performance."


I don't see where IH has the authority under the agreement to make any 
kind of judgment on the report.


Craig


On 04/10/2016 10:37 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
a.ashfield mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net>> 
wrote:


You write.  "I know how the people at I.H. do it,"
How do you know that?


As I said, I have met with them and discussed this with them.

I doubt anyone who writes about this story knows the players
better than Mats Lewan.   I judge him technically competent.


He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. The 
people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare 
Rossi's evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are 
better at calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.


I am not talking about personality, motivation, or anything else. I 
have narrowed this down to one question. Who is better at evaluating 
calorimetry? In my opinion, I.H. is, but I could be wrong.


I take the two press releases at face value. I am assuming that Rossi 
means what he says, and I.H. means what they say. If I.H. actually 
thought the machine works, they would be crazy not to pay him the $89 
million.


I get the feeling Rossi simply doesn't care about making a
foolproof demo.


He must do this if he wants the $89 million. That is what is 
stipulated in the contract.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jed Rothwell]

a.ashfield  wrote:


> You write.  "I know how the people at I.H. do it,"
> How do you know that?


As I said, I have met with them and discussed this with them.



> I doubt anyone who writes about this story knows the players better than
> Mats Lewan.   I judge him technically competent.


He says he has not read the Penon report yet, so he cannot judge. The
people at I.H. have read it. At this point, we can only compare Rossi's
evaluation with I.H.'s. In my informed opinion, they are better at
calorimetry, so it is likely they are right.

I am not talking about personality, motivation, or anything else. I have
narrowed this down to one question. Who is better at evaluating
calorimetry? In my opinion, I.H. is, but I could be wrong.

I take the two press releases at face value. I am assuming that Rossi means
what he says, and I.H. means what they say. If I.H. actually thought the
machine works, they would be crazy not to pay him the $89 million.



> I get the feeling Rossi simply doesn't care about making a foolproof demo.


He must do this if he wants the $89 million. That is what is stipulated in
the contract.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[a.ashfield]

Jed,
You write.  "I know how the people at I.H. do it,"
How do you know that?  Have you visited them and seen them do it?

I doubt anyone who writes about this story knows the players better than 
Mats Lewan.   I judge him technically competent.   He is cautious but 
has been persuaded that the the E-Cat works.  I recall that having 
doubts about the experimental set up he said the fact the the E-Cat went 
on boiling, something he felt by putting hand on it, for more than an 
hour after the power was turned off, was what persuaded him more than 
the instrument readings.


I get the feeling Rossi simply doesn't care about making a foolproof 
demo.  It would be fairly easy to do if the wanted to.  It seems he just 
shows something good enough to persuade the investors, otherwise there 
is no advantage to him and it would just encourage competition.  He 
seems to be betting all in now and either will be making and selling 
operating units in the next few months or the E-Cat doesn't work.  For 
him to carry on if it doesn't work makes no sense at all.  He could have 
walked away with enough money for life several years ago if he had 
wanted to.

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Dave]

It is unfair to characterize Jack in this way.  He devoted a great deal 
of effort attempting to prove LENR was viable and it appeared to me that 
he was seeing some interesting results in early experiments.  Perhaps he 
has changed his beliefs as of this time due to taking a second look at 
his procedures.


I can understand how demoralized he must feel after all of that effort 
but I feel confident that his opinions will change to a more positive 
stance if the ERV report has substance.  Give him some slack.


My work regarding positive thermal feedback modeling tends to support 
many of the statements originating from Rossi.  Until I see evidence 
that energy is not generated by subjecting the magic formula fuel to 
high temperatures I will hold my positive views. The earlier experiments 
that has suggested that LENR was present also fit into my model parameters.


So lets all hold off on the personal attacks since they are not 
productive.  Besides, it is against the rules of vortex to engage in 
such behavior!


Dave

On 04/10/2016 06:25 PM, a.ashfield wrote:

Jack,
Thank you for proving my  point  (Skeptics will not believe any test)
You have no idea what tests were run on the 1 MW plant by the EVR but 
you have already dismissed it sight unseen.


"Brad,

I concur.  Nobody talking here is a pseudo-skeptic.  Every one of us 
who is skeptical here has devoted a large amount of time (and money 
for some of us) to reading, analyzing, thinking, and even directly 
conducting many experiments.  I have wanted the E-cat to work as much 
as anyone, and understand how it is hard to give up that hope when you 
have invested so much in seeing it through to a positive outcome. But 
we can't let that cognitive dissonance cause us to continue down a 
path of waste when there may be other more fruitful avenues.  
Eventually, a person must say, "enough is enough" and realize a dream 
is just a dream and open our eyes to look around for something real 
and worth investing effort in.  It is painful to do, but better than 
continuing down that path.


Jack


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:36 PM Brad Lowe  wrote:
Wait for another inconclusive report written by a dunce or a paid
stooge? Rossi has wasted many man-years of our collective time. I am
done waiting.

And don't call me a pseudo-skeptic. We all would have been happy with
any report where a gas generator ran the E-cat which heated a body of
water. With a 1MW output, he could run that in a day to prove his
claim and win back his millions. Rossi doesn't have anything of
commercial value. Time to admit Rossi's grandfatherly demeanor and
confident lies fooled me and many others.

- Brad


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 1:05 PM, a.ashfield  
wrote:
> Brad Lowe wrote.  "Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future 
where he
> makes a very good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the 
tests."

>
> Wait and see what the ERV report shows.
>
> I doesn't mater what the test it will not be enough to persuade pseudo
> skeptics.  As Rossi said long ago, the only proof will be sales of 
working

> reactors."
>.

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Axil Axil]

Rossi would not has gone to court if the ERV was not supportive of his case.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:55 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Craig Haynie  wrote:
>
> Rossi also wants his intellectual property back. Last year, IH filed a
>> patent on Rossi's technology.
>>
>
> I.H. said his device does not work, therefore the intellectual property is
> worthless. Plus they have not paid him the $89 million. So I.H. no reason
> to keep it, and no standing to keep it (since they have not paid). Even if
> they said they want it, I expect any judge would rule they have to give it
> back.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Axil Axil]

Rossi forced IH into what they are doing. He can take the negative reaction
and doubt that the breakup with IH will produce because he is ready to move
on to the next financial step, This all assumes that Rossi has a powerful
LENR product to sell.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>
>> IH is now being discarded,
>>
>
> If he is discarding I.H. why is he suing them for $89 million?
>
> They do not want to pay him. They say the machine does not work, and
> therefore they will not pay. They are discarding him. He wants them to pay
> up.
>
> What you say makes no sense. They are asking to be discarded. They want to
> end the relationship by not paying, because they do not accept Penon's test
> results. Rossi is the one who wants to continue.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jed Rothwell]

Craig Haynie  wrote:

Rossi also wants his intellectual property back. Last year, IH filed a
> patent on Rossi's technology.
>

I.H. said his device does not work, therefore the intellectual property is
worthless. Plus they have not paid him the $89 million. So I.H. no reason
to keep it, and no standing to keep it (since they have not paid). Even if
they said they want it, I expect any judge would rule they have to give it
back.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Craig Haynie]

Rossi also wants his intellectual property back. Last year, IH filed a 
patent on Rossi's technology.


Craig

On 04/10/2016 09:47 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Axil Axil mailto:janap...@gmail.com>> wrote:

IH is now being discarded,


If he is discarding I.H. why is he suing them for $89 million?

They do not want to pay him. They say the machine does not work, and 
therefore they will not pay. They are discarding him. He wants them to 
pay up.


What you say makes no sense. They are asking to be discarded. They 
want to end the relationship by not paying, because they do not accept 
Penon's test results. Rossi is the one who wants to continue.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jed Rothwell]

Axil Axil  wrote:


> IH is now being discarded,
>

If he is discarding I.H. why is he suing them for $89 million?

They do not want to pay him. They say the machine does not work, and
therefore they will not pay. They are discarding him. He wants them to pay
up.

What you say makes no sense. They are asking to be discarded. They want to
end the relationship by not paying, because they do not accept Penon's test
results. Rossi is the one who wants to continue.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jed Rothwell]

Lennart Thornros  wrote:

I beg to differ, when it comes to your ability to judge people.
> Your examples - Donald Trump and you?
>

Read this carefully:

Anyone can say with confidence that I, Jed, speak Japanese better than
Donald Trump does. That is a fact. You can easily confirm it. You can read
Donald Trump's biography on line. You can learn all about him. One thing
you can be sure of is that he does not speak Japanese at all. If he did
speak it, he would brag about that. On the other hand, anyone who knows me
will know that I do speak Japanese.

In other words, when we are talking about a narrowly defined technical
skill, and we know something about two people, we can say with confidence
one is more skilled than the other. I knew how Rossi does calorimetry, and
I know how the people at I.H. do it, and I can say with confidence the
latter are better at it. PLEASE NOTE I am not talking personalities,
motivation, honesty, or anything else. I am talking about skill in
calorimetry.


I do not know Rossi at all.
>

Whereas I do know him, and I know a lot about his work, and his skills. I
also know about Penon's skills.



> How you know that he will not publish is a mystery to me.
>

It is a mystery to you, but not to me. But you exaggerate. I did not say *I
know* he will not publish. I said *I doubt* he will.



> I think he will or then he will lose credibility in this case.
>

I expect he will lose credibility, but it will take time. I expect he will
continue stalling and making excuses for months.



> If it is hard to negotiate with or not depends on who negotiates. In other
> words you could have said that you are not able to negotiate anything with
> Rossi.
>

I know many people who have negotiated with him. They all say he is
difficult to negotiate with. He is difficult to deal with. I have dealt
with him, and I concur.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Axil Axil]

Rossi uses these Venture Capitalists as a resource to extract R&D funds
that he needs to advance his product development. Rossi will supply the
minimum amount of IP to the VC to get the money that he heeds to move
forward. Rossi knows how this game is played. Now Rossi has found a new
source of funds that will come from a less demanding financial partner in
terms of IP transfer. IH is now being discarded,

For their investment in Rossi, IH has gotten valuable insights into LENR
just as Deflakion had for their money.

Rossi will minimize the information that he revails to get the money that
he needs to move forward, If there is no money in revealing the ERV test,
that test will not be released. The court case may require a release of the
ERV,

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:57 PM, Lennart Thornros 
wrote:

> I beg to differ, when it comes to your ability to judge people.
> Your examples - Donald Trump and you?
>
> I do not know Rossi at all. I am sure he threads carefully about
> publishing material just now.
> How you know that he will not publish is a mystery to me. I think he will
> or then he will lose credibility in this case.
>
> If it is hard to negotiate with or not depends on who negotiates. In other
> words you could have said that you are not able to negotiate anything with
> Rossi.
>
> Sorry Jed - you are now talking in some kind of out of mind state. I have
> hired many people. I have really tried to find methods to reveal what I
> think would be essential for a certain position. Very seldom have found the
> true qualities before the person been hired for months to years. Based on
> that your statement that you know the players is not good enough for
> judgment if you have not worked with them closely and for longer time than
> a dayy or so.
>
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
>
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
>
> Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
> enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Lennart Thornros  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My opinion is that there is no way to qualify the right answer or sort
>>> out anything of this mess - based on judging people's character.
>>>
>>
>> I am not talking about character so much as technical ability. I can
>> judge that. When you know people as well as I know I.H. and Rossi, you can
>> say with confidence who has more technical ability, and who has
>> credibility. Just as anyone can say with confidence that Mike McKubre knows
>> much more about electrochemistry than I do, or that I speak Japanese better
>> than Donald Trump does.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Why not wait for the report, which Rossi says is coming?
>>>
>>
>> I doubt that it will come. If he wanted to release it, he would have
>> already.
>>
>>
>>
>>> IMHO it is remarkable that IH did not resolve the issue by negotiate
>>> with Rossi.
>>>
>>
>> In my experience, it is difficult to negotiate anything with Rossi.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Why make risky judgment of character based on rumors / gossip / evil
>>> tongues.?
>>>
>>
>> I would not do that. My judgments are based on my own knowledge of
>> research done by the two parties.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Lennart Thornros]

I beg to differ, when it comes to your ability to judge people.
Your examples - Donald Trump and you?

I do not know Rossi at all. I am sure he threads carefully about publishing
material just now.
How you know that he will not publish is a mystery to me. I think he will
or then he will lose credibility in this case.

If it is hard to negotiate with or not depends on who negotiates. In other
words you could have said that you are not able to negotiate anything with
Rossi.

Sorry Jed - you are now talking in some kind of out of mind state. I have
hired many people. I have really tried to find methods to reveal what I
think would be essential for a certain position. Very seldom have found the
true qualities before the person been hired for months to years. Based on
that your statement that you know the players is not good enough for
judgment if you have not worked with them closely and for longer time than
a dayy or so.


Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros


lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899

Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Lennart Thornros  wrote:
>
>
>> My opinion is that there is no way to qualify the right answer or sort
>> out anything of this mess - based on judging people's character.
>>
>
> I am not talking about character so much as technical ability. I can judge
> that. When you know people as well as I know I.H. and Rossi, you can say
> with confidence who has more technical ability, and who has credibility.
> Just as anyone can say with confidence that Mike McKubre knows much more
> about electrochemistry than I do, or that I speak Japanese better than
> Donald Trump does.
>
>
>
>> Why not wait for the report, which Rossi says is coming?
>>
>
> I doubt that it will come. If he wanted to release it, he would have
> already.
>
>
>
>> IMHO it is remarkable that IH did not resolve the issue by negotiate with
>> Rossi.
>>
>
> In my experience, it is difficult to negotiate anything with Rossi.
>
>
>
>> Why make risky judgment of character based on rumors / gossip / evil
>> tongues.?
>>
>
> I would not do that. My judgments are based on my own knowledge of
> research done by the two parties.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jed Rothwell]

Lennart Thornros  wrote:


> My opinion is that there is no way to qualify the right answer or sort out
> anything of this mess - based on judging people's character.
>

I am not talking about character so much as technical ability. I can judge
that. When you know people as well as I know I.H. and Rossi, you can say
with confidence who has more technical ability, and who has credibility.
Just as anyone can say with confidence that Mike McKubre knows much more
about electrochemistry than I do, or that I speak Japanese better than
Donald Trump does.



> Why not wait for the report, which Rossi says is coming?
>

I doubt that it will come. If he wanted to release it, he would have
already.



> IMHO it is remarkable that IH did not resolve the issue by negotiate with
> Rossi.
>

In my experience, it is difficult to negotiate anything with Rossi.



> Why make risky judgment of character based on rumors / gossip / evil
> tongues.?
>

I would not do that. My judgments are based on my own knowledge of research
done by the two parties.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Lennart Thornros]

Jed, everyone can have an opinion.
My opinion is that there is no way to qualify the right answer or sort out
anything of this mess - based on judging people's character.
Why not wait for the report, which Rossi says is coming?
IMHO it is remarkable that IH did not resolve the issue by negotiate with
Rossi.
IH are a professional investor and even if $11M is a lot of money measured
with what most of us are used to - it is not that much of a deal for IH.
They probably have similar size investment go bad now and then.
That situation indicate that something is very wrong between IH and Rossi.
It will be an answer to what is and what is not.
>From what Rossi has committed to the next phase is commercialization of the
Ecat. I do not think Rossi can sell this 250kW Ecat without having a test
facility where the customer can make sure it is a sane investment.
The good thing is that we will soon know.
Why make risky judgment of character based on rumors / gossip / evil
tongues.?

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros


lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899

Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> a.ashfield  wrote:
>
>
>> Thank you for proving my  point  (Skeptics will not believe any test)
>> You have no idea what tests were run on the 1 MW plant by the EVR but you
>> have already dismissed it sight unseen.
>>
>
> But not without reason. Those of us who are familiar with the people and
> the work of I.H. find them more credible than Rossi. When Rossi says the
> test was positive, but I.H. says it was not, then sight unseen I will
> assume I.H. is right.
>
> I would say the same if McKubre had examined the results and it was his
> word against Rossi's. Some people have more credibility than others.
>
> This is not a scientific method of judging a result, but it is valid.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jed Rothwell]

a.ashfield  wrote:


> Thank you for proving my  point  (Skeptics will not believe any test)
> You have no idea what tests were run on the 1 MW plant by the EVR but you
> have already dismissed it sight unseen.
>

But not without reason. Those of us who are familiar with the people and
the work of I.H. find them more credible than Rossi. When Rossi says the
test was positive, but I.H. says it was not, then sight unseen I will
assume I.H. is right.

I would say the same if McKubre had examined the results and it was his
word against Rossi's. Some people have more credibility than others.

This is not a scientific method of judging a result, but it is valid.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[a.ashfield]

Jack,
Thank you for proving my  point  (Skeptics will not believe any test)
You have no idea what tests were run on the 1 MW plant by the EVR but 
you have already dismissed it sight unseen.


"Brad,

I concur.  Nobody talking here is a pseudo-skeptic.  Every one of us who 
is skeptical here has devoted a large amount of time (and money for some 
of us) to reading, analyzing, thinking, and even directly conducting 
many experiments.  I have wanted the E-cat to work as much as anyone, 
and understand how it is hard to give up that hope when you have 
invested so much in seeing it through to a positive outcome.  But we 
can't let that cognitive dissonance cause us to continue down a path of 
waste when there may be other more fruitful avenues.  Eventually, a 
person must say, "enough is enough" and realize a dream is just a dream 
and open our eyes to look around for something real and worth investing 
effort in.  It is painful to do, but better than continuing down that path.


Jack


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:36 PM Brad Lowe > wrote:

Wait for another inconclusive report written by a dunce or a paid
stooge? Rossi has wasted many man-years of our collective time. I am
done waiting.

And don't call me a pseudo-skeptic. We all would have been happy with
any report where a gas generator ran the E-cat which heated a body of
water. With a 1MW output, he could run that in a day to prove his
claim and win back his millions. Rossi doesn't have anything of
commercial value. Time to admit Rossi's grandfatherly demeanor and
confident lies fooled me and many others.

- Brad


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 1:05 PM, a.ashfield > wrote:
> Brad Lowe wrote.  "Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future 
where he
> makes a very good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the 
tests."

>
> Wait and see what the ERV report shows.
>
> I doesn't mater what the test it will not be enough to persuade pseudo
> skeptics.  As Rossi said long ago, the only proof will be sales of 
working

> reactors."
>.

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Ian Walker]

Hi all

Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select, on which to base
their Due Diligence, for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access, they
were so happy with his work, and that of the team they selected and that they
agreed for him to run; that they spent $10 million dollars as a result.

There is no wiggle room with facts they are when all is said and done facts.

And it is fact that IH were happy enough with Fabio Penon's
qualifications, experience and abilities spend $10 million dollars on
using him as their source of adequate Due Diligence for buying the
E-Cat License and seeing the E-Cat IP.

IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to
replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto by IH's
own inaction he was IH's choice for the ERV and they were fully
satisfied with him.

Kind Regards walker

Re: [Vo]:more automation like Jed said was coming

[Frank Znidarsic]

Until things are not going our way!



-Original Message-
From: a.ashfield 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Sun, Apr 10, 2016 6:12 pm
Subject: [Vo]:more automation like Jed said was coming

Frank,

"Use of force will always be carried out by humans."

Like to hazard a guess how long that will remain true?

[Vo]:more automation like Jed said was coming

[a.ashfield]

Frank,

"Use of force will always be carried out by humans."

Like to hazard a guess how long that will remain true?

[Vo]:Greenglow by Ronald Evans

[Frank Znidarsic]

It an interesting book about the fundamentals of physics.
I understand most of it except for the section on Green's Theorem.
I never was able to grasp the theorem I and still don't.  The book is heavy on 
fundamental physics and light on experiment.


If I knew Evan's address I would send him a copy of my book.
Perhaps I could show him the way, with no Green's theorem, of course.


Frank

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Terry Blanton]

An interesting discourse on Engineering Comity:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8mt4mJOTGvBeHU1THRGaHFIZDQ/view?usp=sharing

RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Russ George]

The idea that a person is qualified because their parent paid for their Phd is 
preposterous. The title 'doctor' or 'doctore' used to only be conveyed upon a 
person by their peers after decades of work in the field. Then universities saw 
the opportunity to go whoring and sell titles to the children of parents with 
money. Later the student loan industry turned this into an even more 
disgraceful system in the money grubbing USA. To see some trying to suggest 
that a 'degree' given by a whoring institution is worth more than the trust of 
peers is the sort of idiocy one expects these days, not unusual in this time of 
the likes of the US republican party and its dedication to the stupid and 
avaricious. 

Turning a discussion on Rossi's work into a perverse discussion about Penon's 
degree is such text book troll behavior as to take Vortex into utter absurdity. 
Those casting aspersions on Penon should post their own credentials, if they do 
not and are critical of Penon then they define themselves as the worst of 
trolls. It's too bad Vortex doesn't have a feature like Facebook where one 
simply block those who prove themselves to be trolls or worse.

-Original Message-
From: a.ashfield [mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:43 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

Thanks to those that have replied with useful links.

"It was almost a thousand years ago, when the University of Bologna, or Alma 
Mater Studiorum (Nourishing Mother of Studies), the oldest university 
functioning constantly started teaching various disciplines at graduate level. "
"Cost effective study options and minimal tuition fees are Europe’s mere 
advantage and deserve commendation, therefore this advantage should not be 
lost. "

That said, the American UNiversities have a lot more money.  I my opinion they 
are now not good value for money.  College cost increased more than 500% while 
the consumer price index increased 121%  The actual cost of instruction only 
went up less than 10% Sending more money there didn’t work.  Student loans now 
total $1.2 trillion.  Only 60% graduate within six years, the remainder has to 
pay off the debt without a degree.  A CareerBuilder Survey finds 51% of 
employed 2014 college grads are in Jobs that don’t require a degree.  Just 27 
percent of college grads had a job that was closely related to their major.  It 
seems universities are more interested in acquiring student fees than preparing 
them for the world. Harvard professor Clayton Christensen predicted that in 15 
years half these institutions would be in bankruptcy.

It is still not clear to me what degree Penon has.  It doesn't look like it is  
PhD but as others have pointed out, the master's degree carries the title of 
Dr. there.  Certainly Beene belittles Penon by calling him a glorified 
mechanic.  As a licensed engineer he should be qualified to do the assessment.  
Probably better than a lot of scientists who have had no practical training or 
experience.


"The Bologna University system

University studies are divided into three cycles:

First cycle and Single cycle degree programmes: First Cycle Degrees, Single 
Cycle Degrees.

Second cycle degree programmes: Second Cycle degree programme.

Third cycle degree programmes: Doctoral studies (PhD) and Specialisation 
Schools.

The University also runs vocational programmes including First and Second level 
Professional Master's Programmes, Post-Graduate programmes, Lifelong Learning 
Courses and Intensive Courses.

The qualifications awarded are: first cycle degree (laurea - L) and second 
cycle degree (laurea magistrale - LM). To obtain a first cycle degree, students 
must acquire 180 educational credits (CFU) in a maximum of 20 exams; to obtain 
a second cycle degree they must acquire 120 CFU, in a maximum of 12 exams."

Re: [Vo]:more automation like Jed said was coming

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Frank Znidarsic  wrote:

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/04/10/us-military-christens-self-driving-sea-hunter-warship/21340920/


Unrelated to the point about automation, the strange looking boat reminded
me of a recent trip I took into Oklahoma, right next to me.  I was driving
there a week or so ago and drove past a US military convoy on their way to
somewhere, probably an army base.  The trucks (as we call them) looked a
bit like this:

http://allnewspipeline.com/images/277.png

It occurred to me that these vehicles are probably bespoke, and require
specialized knowledge to fix and maintain and require specialized parts.  I
wonder how much money military contractors spend on setting up a parallel
line of vehicles that are not mass produced at the same levels as those
available to consumers, and how much this duplication of effort costs.
This would apply not only to vehicles for transport such as this, but to
smaller things like drones.  It seems to me that contractors should be
instructed to make as much use of commercially available products as
possible to get the job done within strategic limits (i.e., not becoming
dependent upon goods produced in a potentially hostile country).

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jack Cole]

Brad,

I concur.  Nobody talking here is a pseudo-skeptic.  Every one of us who is
skeptical here has devoted a large amount of time (and money for some of
us) to reading, analyzing, thinking, and even directly conducting many
experiments.  I have wanted the E-cat to work as much as anyone, and
understand how it is hard to give up that hope when you have invested so
much in seeing it through to a positive outcome.  But we can't let that
cognitive dissonance cause us to continue down a path of waste when there
may be other more fruitful avenues.  Eventually, a person must say, "enough
is enough" and realize a dream is just a dream and open our eyes to look
around for something real and worth investing effort in.  It is painful to
do, but better than continuing down that path.

Jack


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:36 PM Brad Lowe  wrote:

> Wait for another inconclusive report written by a dunce or a paid
> stooge? Rossi has wasted many man-years of our collective time. I am
> done waiting.
>
> And don't call me a pseudo-skeptic. We all would have been happy with
> any report where a gas generator ran the E-cat which heated a body of
> water. With a 1MW output, he could run that in a day to prove his
> claim and win back his millions. Rossi doesn't have anything of
> commercial value. Time to admit Rossi's grandfatherly demeanor and
> confident lies fooled me and many others.
>
> - Brad
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 1:05 PM, a.ashfield 
> wrote:
> > Brad Lowe wrote.  "Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future
> where he
> > makes a very good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the
> tests."
> >
> > Wait and see what the ERV report shows.
> >
> > I doesn't mater what the test it will not be enough to persuade pseudo
> > skeptics.  As Rossi said long ago, the only proof will be sales of
> working
> > reactors.
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[a.ashfield]

Thanks to those that have replied with useful links.

"It was almost a thousand years ago, when the University of Bologna, or 
Alma Mater Studiorum (Nourishing Mother of Studies), the oldest 
university functioning constantly started teaching various disciplines 
at graduate level. "
"Cost effective study options and minimal tuition fees are Europe’s mere 
advantage and deserve commendation, therefore this advantage should not 
be lost. "


That said, the American UNiversities have a lot more money.  I my 
opinion they are now not good value for money.  College cost increased 
more than 500% while the consumer price index increased 121%  The actual 
cost of instruction only went up less than 10% Sending more money there 
didn’t work.  Student loans now total $1.2 trillion.  Only 60% graduate 
within six years, the remainder has to pay off the debt without a 
degree.  A CareerBuilder Survey finds 51% of employed 2014 college grads 
are in Jobs that don’t require a degree.  Just 27 percent of college 
grads had a job that was closely related to their major.  It seems 
universities are more interested in acquiring student fees than 
preparing them for the world. Harvard professor Clayton Christensen 
predicted that in 15 years half these institutions would be in bankruptcy.


It is still not clear to me what degree Penon has.  It doesn't look like 
it is  PhD but as others have pointed out, the master's degree carries 
the title of Dr. there.  Certainly Beene belittles Penon by calling him 
a glorified mechanic.  As a licensed engineer he should be qualified to 
do the assessment.  Probably better than a lot of scientists who have 
had no practical training or experience.



"The Bologna University system

University studies are divided into three cycles:

First cycle and Single cycle degree programmes: First Cycle Degrees, 
Single Cycle Degrees.


Second cycle degree programmes: Second Cycle degree programme.

Third cycle degree programmes: Doctoral studies (PhD) and Specialisation 
Schools.


The University also runs vocational programmes including First and 
Second level Professional Master's Programmes, Post-Graduate programmes, 
Lifelong Learning Courses and Intensive Courses.


The qualifications awarded are: first cycle degree (laurea - L) and 
second cycle degree (laurea magistrale - LM). To obtain a first cycle 
degree, students must acquire 180 educational credits (CFU) in a maximum 
of 20 exams; to obtain a second cycle degree they must acquire 120 CFU, 
in a maximum of 12 exams."

[Vo]:more automation like Jed said was coming

[Frank Znidarsic]

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/04/10/us-military-christens-self-driving-sea-hunter-warship/21340920/

RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Jones Beene]

From: Lennart Thornros 

 

So, if your credentials are not from the US then you can be called any 
demeaning name?

 

You can if you use your skills, or lack thereof, to facilitate a scam.

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Brad Lowe]

Wait for another inconclusive report written by a dunce or a paid
stooge? Rossi has wasted many man-years of our collective time. I am
done waiting.

And don't call me a pseudo-skeptic. We all would have been happy with
any report where a gas generator ran the E-cat which heated a body of
water. With a 1MW output, he could run that in a day to prove his
claim and win back his millions. Rossi doesn't have anything of
commercial value. Time to admit Rossi's grandfatherly demeanor and
confident lies fooled me and many others.

- Brad




On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 1:05 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:
> Brad Lowe wrote.  "Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future where he
> makes a very good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the tests."
>
> Wait and see what the ERV report shows.
>
> I doesn't mater what the test it will not be enough to persuade pseudo
> skeptics.  As Rossi said long ago, the only proof will be sales of working
> reactors.
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Jones Beene]

From: Russ George 

 

Nor is Jones Beene, he has no credentials even proving he passed kindergarten!

 

Hmm… you nailed me, Russ. 

 

I flunked kindergarten 101. And let me add, we are so fortunate to be in the 
presence of a true …err… LENR pioneer?

 

Here are the distinguished credentials of the vortex troll - Russ George, 
courtesy of:

 

 

 
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/companies/RussGeorge/Russ-George-Low-Energy-Nuclear-Reaction-Research-LENR-and-Plankton-Carbon-Credit.shtml

 

which include, according to the aforementioned Steve Krivit

1. Invents Business Transactions 
George invents business transactions, sometimes between his own corporations, 
to give the appearance that those corporations, which usually exist only on 
paper, have value. Usually, they have no assets. 

2. Uses Scientists' or Institutions’ Names Without Permission or Authorization 
George uses the names of recognized, qualified scientists and institutions 
without their permission, in association with himself, to give the appearance 
that his businesses have value, recognition and prestige. 

3. Creates Illusions That He Has Supportive Scientific Data 
George uses the allure of science to give the impression that his proposed 
technologies are supported by credible scientific research when, in fact, they 
often are not. 

4. Makes False Claims to Ownership of Credible Scientific Data 
Of the credible science that George claims as his own research, most of the 
data and research belong to someone else. 

And the list goes on…

 

 

 

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Lennart Thornros]

So, if your credentials are not from the US then you can be called any
demeaning name?
Well, maybe I need to talk to people with a wider approach to life.
I have met many and employed a few people with very good education and
other credentia , which turned out to be without any indication of their
ability to do the job - and I have seen the opposite. (People with no
formal education being very capable.)
There is debate going on about how difficult it is to implement caliometric
technology. I can guarantee that evaluate other people is by far more
difficult and more full of pitfalls than any caliometric technology. Most
people have unique qualities. Unfortunately some does not know or
understand their capacity and others have a blown up self centered believe
that they are capable in all trades. I think both situations are pitiful.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros


lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899

Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Russ George  wrote:

> Nor is Jones Beene, he has no credentials even proving he passed
> kindergarten!
>
>
>
> *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 10, 2016 12:58 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
>
>
> He is a professional engineer in Italy by their standards.
>
>
>
> Until he is licensed in the USA as a professional engineer, he is a
> “glorified mechanic”.
>
>
>
> He is no PhD or Doctor in either country.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sean True
>
>
>
> His curriculum vita: http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123620809_1.pdf
>
>
>
> His registration with the Italian National Council of Engineers: 
> https://www.tuttoingegnere.it/PortaleCNI/it/albo_unico.wp;jsessionid=2B2157893F630F8D03291BDA1DDD3B14.tomcatprogetti?internalServletFrameDest=8&internalServletActionPath=/ExtStr2/do/ricercaRegistro/dettaglio.action&log=false&idDettaglio=FABIO.PENON.PD2311
>
>
>
> Mr Beene may be posing an equivalence being a Professional Engineer and being 
> a mechanic.
>
> If I were to criticize Ing. Penon's credentials, it would be that he appears 
> to spend a lot of time doing management consulting and not reading gauges. 
> Not exactly "glorified mechanics".
>
>
>
> -- ST
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:39 PM, a.ashfield 
> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I
> see him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D.
> in Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of
> Bologna-Italy ).
>
> Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified
> mechanic.
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Russ George]

Nor is Jones Beene, he has no credentials even proving he passed kindergarten!

 

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 12:58 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

 

Sean,

 

He is a professional engineer in Italy by their standards. 

 

Until he is licensed in the USA as a professional engineer, he is a “glorified 
mechanic”. 

 

He is no PhD or Doctor in either country.

 

From: Sean True 

 

His curriculum vita:   
http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123620809_1.pdf
 
His registration with the Italian National Council of Engineers:  

 
https://www.tuttoingegnere.it/PortaleCNI/it/albo_unico.wp;jsessionid=2B2157893F630F8D03291BDA1DDD3B14.tomcatprogetti?internalServletFrameDest=8&internalServletActionPath=/ExtStr2/do/ricercaRegistro/dettaglio.action&log=false&idDettaglio=FABIO.PENON.PD2311
 
Mr Beene may be posing an equivalence being a Professional Engineer and being a 
mechanic. 
If I were to criticize Ing. Penon's credentials, it would be that he appears to 
spend a lot of time doing management consulting and not reading gauges. Not 
exactly "glorified mechanics".
 
-- ST

 

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:39 PM, a.ashfield mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net> > wrote:

Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I see 
him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D. in 
Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of 
Bologna-Italy ).

Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified mechanic.

 

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Sean True]

If by Professional Engineer, you mean "recognized by a licensing board in
the US", I'll accept the notion, while not considering it in any way
significant. Using "glorified mechanic" does seem like code for something
else, however.

It's well known that only the US has professional engineers, and that a
proper education is only available from US education institution. :-)

-- ST

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Sean,
>
>
>
> He is a professional engineer in Italy by their standards.
>
>
>
> Until he is licensed in the USA as a professional engineer, he is a
> “glorified mechanic”.
>
>
>
> He is no PhD or Doctor in either country.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sean True
>
>
>
> His curriculum vita: http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123620809_1.pdf
>
>
>
> His registration with the Italian National Council of Engineers: 
> https://www.tuttoingegnere.it/PortaleCNI/it/albo_unico.wp;jsessionid=2B2157893F630F8D03291BDA1DDD3B14.tomcatprogetti?internalServletFrameDest=8&internalServletActionPath=/ExtStr2/do/ricercaRegistro/dettaglio.action&log=false&idDettaglio=FABIO.PENON.PD2311
>
>
>
> Mr Beene may be posing an equivalence being a Professional Engineer and being 
> a mechanic.
>
> If I were to criticize Ing. Penon's credentials, it would be that he appears 
> to spend a lot of time doing management consulting and not reading gauges. 
> Not exactly "glorified mechanics".
>
>
>
> -- ST
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:39 PM, a.ashfield 
> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I
> see him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D.
> in Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of
> Bologna-Italy ).
>
> Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified
> mechanic.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Sean True]

Justin Robert Nifong has one patent issued as an inventor, for a device for
reducing the problem of smelly drains in commercial kitchens:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=8,409,433.PN.&OS=PN/8,409,433&RS=PN/8,409,433

His Linked In profile says: "Mr. Nifong is a registered patent attorney and
is admitted to practice law in North Carolina. Mr. Nifong’s practice is
focused on patent preparation and prosecution, patent litigation, patent
legal opinions, and various other Intellectual Property matters. Mr.
Nifong works
in technologies that include mechanical, medical, optical, textile,
chemical, computer, and the electrical arts.

Mr. Nifong is admitted in North Carolina, the Eastern and Western Districts
of the Federal Court of North Carolina, the United States Patent and
Trademark Office, and the Supreme Court of the United States of America."

He has a BS in Mechanical Engineering, an MS in Electrical Engineering, and
a JD from Wake Forest. Typical profile for a patent attorney.

He appears to be one of two founders of NK Patent Law, a small IP law firm
with multiple specialties, including Nuclear Patents:

http://www.nkpatentlaw.com/nuclear-patents/

-- ST

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Russ George  wrote:

> Published on E-catworld is a copy of a provisional patent (
> http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/R_123621412_3.pdf)
> that Rossi says is part of the trouble with IH, the patent was filed by a
> patent filer, Nifong, located very near IH... This clearly substantiates
> what Rossi is saying. How could IH claim that Rossi's E-Cat inventions
> don't work and thus they don't pay their contracted payment while they are
> filing patent claims covering the very same technology. Of course the Rossi
> haters, actually simply haters, are gonna hate regardless of any facts.
> They will just keep posting lies, distortions and hate here in the Vortex.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: a.ashfield [mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net]
> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 10:13 AM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?
>
> Russ George,
> Jones Beene wrote.  "since the evidence does not support that (crimes were
> committed) yet."
> But he is the most vociferous one in libeling Rossi and his supporters.
>
> Why they can't wait for evidence like the ERV's report and other actual
> facts suggests some emotional problem or possibly lack of experience.
>
> Russ wrote.  "Vortex is a bleak lesson in internet trolling"
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[a.ashfield]

Brad Lowe wrote.  "Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future 
where he makes a very good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results 
of the tests."


Wait and see what the ERV report shows.

I doesn't mater what the test it will not be enough to persuade pseudo 
skeptics.  As Rossi said long ago, the only proof will be sales of 
working reactors.

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Giovanni Santostasi]

It used to be that you needed just a 4 years degree (that involved a final
thesis) called a Laurea to become a dottore in Italy. It is not really the
equivalent of Master but something a bit more but not quite a PhD.
Eventually a Dottorato di Ricerca was introduced and that is the Italian
equivalent of an anglosaxon PhD.

Giovanni

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> I recall hearing that everyone with a master's degree in Italy is called
> "Doctor," and Wikipedia indicates that this is the case [1]. That implies
> that Penon need not have a PhD to be called "dottore."  That also makes
> sense of why people call Rossi "Dr. Rossi," although I think the rules of
> the language being used (English) should take precedence here.
>
> As Penon's CV shows, he has a "Laurea" (Master's degree) in nuclear
> engineering.
>
> Eric
>
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurea#Former_status_of_the_Laurea_degree
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 2:39 PM, a.ashfield 
> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I
>> see him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D.
>> in Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of
>> Bologna-Italy ).
>>
>> Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified
>> mechanic.
>>
>>
>

RE: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-
From: Brad Lowe 

Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future where he makes a very good 
guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the tests.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/rossi-1-megawatt-energy-catalyzer-is.html

He also states the obvious--why Rossi doesn't heat a pool of water to 
demonstrate heat output..
--

Aha. This scheme is similar to the trickery Rossi was first using in his early 
"wet steam" scam. Apparently AR thought that by super-sizing it, he could hide 
the trick better. Thanks to Goat-guy for nailing him on this. 

Steve Krivit covered that earlier episode pretty well, and since this was 
before Steve went into full attack mode, the article below is factual detailed 
and valuable in that we can see how, and possibly where, Goat-guy discovered 
how the trick was improved on.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3705report3.shtml

Damn... Rossi almost pulled this off.

RE: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Jones Beene]

Sean,

 

He is a professional engineer in Italy by their standards. 

 

Until he is licensed in the USA as a professional engineer, he is a “glorified 
mechanic”. 

 

He is no PhD or Doctor in either country.

 

From: Sean True 

 

His curriculum vita:   
http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123620809_1.pdf
 
His registration with the Italian National Council of Engineers:  

 
https://www.tuttoingegnere.it/PortaleCNI/it/albo_unico.wp;jsessionid=2B2157893F630F8D03291BDA1DDD3B14.tomcatprogetti?internalServletFrameDest=8&internalServletActionPath=/ExtStr2/do/ricercaRegistro/dettaglio.action&log=false&idDettaglio=FABIO.PENON.PD2311
 
Mr Beene may be posing an equivalence being a Professional Engineer and being a 
mechanic. 
If I were to criticize Ing. Penon's credentials, it would be that he appears to 
spend a lot of time doing management consulting and not reading gauges. Not 
exactly "glorified mechanics".
 
-- ST

 

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:39 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:

Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I see 
him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D. in 
Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of 
Bologna-Italy ).

Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified mechanic.

 

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Craig Haynie]

>>>And if I were 'there', I'd too be calling for different testing.

You'd be calling for a lot more than that if you discovered that someone 
was cheating you!


But asking for new testing is not part of the agreement which was signed.

There  are several reasons why IH would want to default on the contract. 
Maybe they didn't raise as much money as they had hoped. Maybe they did 
find some reason to believe that they were being cheated. Maybe they've 
come to distrust the ERV. But without the lawsuit, would they have 
returned Rossi's intellectual property? Would they have signed the 
patent back over to him?


If Rossi is a cheat, they should counter-sue and try to file criminal 
charges. Otherwise, they should try to undo the damage they've done, by 
taking Rossi's IP, and learning the skills to use this technique, which 
they took from Rossi; and pay something for going through this one-year 
test, which took time and effort.


Craig

On 04/10/2016 03:17 PM, Brad Lowe wrote:

And if I were 'there', I'd too be calling for different testing.

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Jack Cole]

If I'm not mistaken,  GoatGuy was the first to speculate about the
transparency of alumina accounting for the apparent excess heat in Lugano.
His analysis seems plausible,  but would take some thought and analysis to
fully evaluate.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 2:17 PM Brad Lowe  wrote:

> Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future where he makes a very
> good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the tests.
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/rossi-1-megawatt-energy-catalyzer-is.html
> He also states the obvious--why Rossi doesn't heat a pool of water to
> demonstrate heat output..
>
> Copying his response in full:
>
> Hah! I got it… finally! (I see how the 'trick' is very likely being
> performed, and why IH decided on a different testing procedure from
> the 'contract approved' one.)
>
> Its cute, subtle, and would result in an entirely misleading result.
> FIRST, you need to open the (
> http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/R_123621412_3.pdf
> ) pdf file.
>
> Look at Figure 1. In the center of the “reactor shelter”, is a box
> labeled “water reservoir”, which has 2 inlets and 2 outlets.
>
> Inlet 1, top = tap water from municipal line
> Inlet 2, bot = return from steam condensers
> Outlet 1, top = water to first half of E-cats and then to water tank 1
> Outlet 2, bot = water to second half of E-cats and then to water tank 2
>
> All that would be needed would be for the steam-condensor loop to have
> a BUNCH of air in the line for this to be a really misleading COP > 1
> system. Sensors that measure gas flow cannot discriminate 100% steam
> from 50:50 steam from 0% hot air. Likewise, with a bit of flim-flam,
> most of the heat emitted could be combined back into the circulating
> loop (of which there are 2: (water tank 1) → (input to ECat₁) →
> (combine with reservoir tank water) → (back into ECat₁) → (back to
> water tank 1) … repeated for the bottom half.
>
> In this system most of the input power can heat the effluent stream,
> if needed. The amount of 'real steam' in the big old
> misdirection-device (the "condensers", which are huge,
> non-quantitative, impressive and so on), which thru air-in-the-lines
> becomes 'the ruse' looks great. Metrology is done. It all seems great
> because no one is alert to the intent-to-deviate from the patent
> diagram.
>
> The receiving tanks get both new tap water and a bunch of recirculated
> water, reheated. The bogosity of the experiment isn't easily revealed.
> No attempt is made to mass-heat a bunch of water (like a small
> swimming pool's worth) a finite amount. The whole thing runs at
> whatever rate it runs (which is carefully excluded from the PDF). The
> only measure left is the misdirected one.
>
> It is ingenious.
> And if I were 'there', I'd too be calling for different testing.
> Namely… substituting a liquid-liquid heat exchanger for the great big
> air blower.
>
> To heat the small swimming pool.
> Which REALLY becomes quantitative, fast.
> To at least 2 sig-figs.
> More than enough to expose the rat.
> Or to confirm the golden goose.
>
> Which (by my surmise) confirms why Rossi's so up tight about the testing.
> Which he shouldn't be if it is aiming toward MASS calorimetry.
> Which of course he's never done.
> Nor will he.
>
> Because it exposes rats.
> GoatGuy
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Lennart Thornros 
> wrote:
> > Jones, both you and Ahern take on the issue with Ecat by accusing Rossi
> of
> > being a person with lower moral than for example you.
> > That is an judgmental attitude that takes you nowhere and in addition has
> > nothing to do with LENR.
> > I have not any qualifications to judge about ECAT. (BTW English is my
> second
> > or third languish so we do not have to debate that).
> > I do have experience of investment in high tech start ups ( VC industry
> ), I
> > have even more experience as an entrepreneur.
> > In my opinion Rossi is a true entrepreneur. I appreciate that quality. It
> > would amaze me if Rossi has been able to lie to IH and make them pay
> $11M.
> > That would indicate flaws in IH ways of invest.
> > I can imagine that there is problem with replication of performance of
> the
> > Ecat.
> > It can be a reluctance from Rossi to provide the info required by
> agreement
> > due to IH are involved with other LENR business without handling the
> > communication between those entities over the board.
> > Then there is the possibility of totally unknown reasons for the
> conflict.
> > Disturbing to me is that IH, which I consider being a professional
> investor,
> > let this be played out in court.
> > Yes, one can have different opinions until we have all the fact and they
> > will be here rather soon I understand.
> > Rossi might have his flaws but to call him unethical with no proof is
> worse
> > and tells more about the one "who throws the first rock . . ."
> >
> > Best Regards ,
> > Lennart Thornros
> >
> >
> > lenn...@thornros.com
> > +1 916 436 1899
> >
> > Whatever you vividly ima

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Eric Walker]

I recall hearing that everyone with a master's degree in Italy is called
"Doctor," and Wikipedia indicates that this is the case [1]. That implies
that Penon need not have a PhD to be called "dottore."  That also makes
sense of why people call Rossi "Dr. Rossi," although I think the rules of
the language being used (English) should take precedence here.

As Penon's CV shows, he has a "Laurea" (Master's degree) in nuclear
engineering.

Eric


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurea#Former_status_of_the_Laurea_degree



On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 2:39 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:

> Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I
> see him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D.
> in Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of
> Bologna-Italy ).
>
> Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified
> mechanic.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fabio Penon

[Sean True]

His curriculum vita: http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123620809_1.pdf


His registration with the Italian National Council of Engineers:
https://www.tuttoingegnere.it/PortaleCNI/it/albo_unico.wp;jsessionid=2B2157893F630F8D03291BDA1DDD3B14.tomcatprogetti?internalServletFrameDest=8&internalServletActionPath=/ExtStr2/do/ricercaRegistro/dettaglio.action&log=false&idDettaglio=FABIO.PENON.PD2311


Mr Beene may be posing an equivalence being a Professional Engineer
and being a mechanic.

If I were to criticize Ing. Penon's credentials, it would be that he
appears to spend a lot of time doing management consulting and not
reading gauges. Not exactly "glorified mechanics".


-- ST


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:39 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:

> Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   I
> see him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, Ph.D.
> in Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma Mater of
> Bologna-Italy ).
>
> Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified
> mechanic.
>
>

[Vo]:Fabio Penon

[a.ashfield]

Does anyone have a direct reference for Fabio Penon's qualifications?   
I see him listed in several European sources as: Dr. Ing. Fabio Penon, 
Ph.D. in Nuclear Engineering (with 110/110 summa cum laude at the Alma 
Mater of Bologna-Italy ).


Jones Beene has stated he doesn't have a PhD and is just a glorified 
mechanic.

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Brad Lowe]

Goat-guy made a great comment on next big future where he makes a very
good guess as to how Rossi is faking the results of the tests.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/rossi-1-megawatt-energy-catalyzer-is.html
He also states the obvious--why Rossi doesn't heat a pool of water to
demonstrate heat output..

Copying his response in full:

Hah! I got it… finally! (I see how the 'trick' is very likely being
performed, and why IH decided on a different testing procedure from
the 'contract approved' one.)

Its cute, subtle, and would result in an entirely misleading result.
FIRST, you need to open the (
http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/R_123621412_3.pdf
) pdf file.

Look at Figure 1. In the center of the “reactor shelter”, is a box
labeled “water reservoir”, which has 2 inlets and 2 outlets.

Inlet 1, top = tap water from municipal line
Inlet 2, bot = return from steam condensers
Outlet 1, top = water to first half of E-cats and then to water tank 1
Outlet 2, bot = water to second half of E-cats and then to water tank 2

All that would be needed would be for the steam-condensor loop to have
a BUNCH of air in the line for this to be a really misleading COP > 1
system. Sensors that measure gas flow cannot discriminate 100% steam
from 50:50 steam from 0% hot air. Likewise, with a bit of flim-flam,
most of the heat emitted could be combined back into the circulating
loop (of which there are 2: (water tank 1) → (input to ECat₁) →
(combine with reservoir tank water) → (back into ECat₁) → (back to
water tank 1) … repeated for the bottom half.

In this system most of the input power can heat the effluent stream,
if needed. The amount of 'real steam' in the big old
misdirection-device (the "condensers", which are huge,
non-quantitative, impressive and so on), which thru air-in-the-lines
becomes 'the ruse' looks great. Metrology is done. It all seems great
because no one is alert to the intent-to-deviate from the patent
diagram.

The receiving tanks get both new tap water and a bunch of recirculated
water, reheated. The bogosity of the experiment isn't easily revealed.
No attempt is made to mass-heat a bunch of water (like a small
swimming pool's worth) a finite amount. The whole thing runs at
whatever rate it runs (which is carefully excluded from the PDF). The
only measure left is the misdirected one.

It is ingenious.
And if I were 'there', I'd too be calling for different testing.
Namely… substituting a liquid-liquid heat exchanger for the great big
air blower.

To heat the small swimming pool.
Which REALLY becomes quantitative, fast.
To at least 2 sig-figs.
More than enough to expose the rat.
Or to confirm the golden goose.

Which (by my surmise) confirms why Rossi's so up tight about the testing.
Which he shouldn't be if it is aiming toward MASS calorimetry.
Which of course he's never done.
Nor will he.

Because it exposes rats.
GoatGuy

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Lennart Thornros  wrote:
> Jones, both you and Ahern take on the issue with Ecat by accusing Rossi of
> being a person with lower moral than for example you.
> That is an judgmental attitude that takes you nowhere and in addition has
> nothing to do with LENR.
> I have not any qualifications to judge about ECAT. (BTW English is my second
> or third languish so we do not have to debate that).
> I do have experience of investment in high tech start ups ( VC industry ), I
> have even more experience as an entrepreneur.
> In my opinion Rossi is a true entrepreneur. I appreciate that quality. It
> would amaze me if Rossi has been able to lie to IH and make them pay $11M.
> That would indicate flaws in IH ways of invest.
> I can imagine that there is problem with replication of performance of the
> Ecat.
> It can be a reluctance from Rossi to provide the info required by agreement
> due to IH are involved with other LENR business without handling the
> communication between those entities over the board.
> Then there is the possibility of totally unknown reasons for the conflict.
> Disturbing to me is that IH, which I consider being a professional investor,
> let this be played out in court.
> Yes, one can have different opinions until we have all the fact and they
> will be here rather soon I understand.
> Rossi might have his flaws but to call him unethical with no proof is worse
> and tells more about the one "who throws the first rock . . ."
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
>
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
>
> Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
> enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 7:05 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:
>>
>> Jones,
>>
>> You claimed I was childishly ignorant and naive.  This seems typical of
>> your jumping to conclusions without the facts.   What have you done to
>> justify making that judgement?
>> I don't give a damn what you think about me.
>> I do object to you libeling others who are not here to defend themselves.
>

Re: [Vo]:Next Big Future - goes out on a limb

[Lennart Thornros]

Jones, both you and Ahern take on the issue with Ecat by accusing Rossi of
being a person with lower moral than for example you.
That is an judgmental attitude that takes you nowhere and in addition has
nothing to do with LENR.
I have not any qualifications to judge about ECAT. (BTW English is my
second or third languish so we do not have to debate that).
I do have experience of investment in high tech start ups ( VC industry ),
I have even more experience as an entrepreneur.
In my opinion Rossi is a true entrepreneur. I appreciate that quality. It
would amaze me if Rossi has been able to lie to IH and make them pay $11M.
That would indicate flaws in IH ways of invest.
I can imagine that there is problem with replication of performance of the
Ecat.
It can be a reluctance from Rossi to provide the info required by agreement
due to IH are involved with other LENR business without handling the
communication between those entities over the board.
Then there is the possibility of totally unknown reasons for the conflict.
Disturbing to me is that IH, which I consider being a professional
investor, let this be played out in court.
Yes, one can have different opinions until we have all the fact and they
will be here rather soon I understand.
Rossi might have his flaws but to call him unethical with no proof is worse
and tells more about the one "who throws the first rock . . ."

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros


lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899

Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and
enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM)


On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 7:05 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:

> Jones,
>
> You claimed I was childishly ignorant and naive.  This seems typical of
> your jumping to conclusions without the facts.   What have you done to
> justify making that judgement?
> I don't give a damn what you think about me.
> I do object to you libeling others who are not here to defend themselves.
>
>
> Jones wrote.  ""... besides consulting for ... institutions like EPRI.
> What great things have
>
> you done that makes you think you are so superior?"
>
> Did I say "superior"? This isn't a pissing contest between the two of us -
> instead we should be talking specifically about Rossi, LENR, the threat
> posed
> to the narrow field of LENR when his scam is discovered and dealt with by a
> physics establishment which is looking for every opportunity to put the
> final
> nail in the coffin (for funding the work started by P&F).
>
> As to the field of LENR itself, you have demonstrated no insight,
> understanding
> or appreciation of the technology - and will no doubt write it off as
> pathological and be long gone, shortly after Rossi is exposed.
>
> If you really consulted with EPRI - then you are probably aware of Ahern's
> work. If you think I am skeptical of Rossi, multiply that by 1000% for
> Ahern.
> He has superior credentials, experimental work and ought to be one of
> Rossi's
> main supporters... except he knowns this story so well - including New
> Hampshire, together with the history of the master scammer decades ago.
>
> How can you blandly dismiss Rossi's past fraud as irrelevant? There is no
> evidence that he has changed. He has more practice now but it is the same
> old
> scam. Even without Petro-dragon and the tax fraud and the sixty odd
> appearances
> in criminal court and 12 years of incarceration - please tell me how you
> can
> justify his conduct in the USA starting with UNH and the TEG scam - the
> two Lab
> fires that got him off the hook (such luck) and the millions of US taxpayer
> dollars he squandered and scammed then? How many free passes does this guy
> get?
>
> Just bad luck? Maybe you are not a US taxpayer and don't give a damn. Or
> maybe
> you haven't really thought about it? You simply cannot overlook this
> dreadful
> past conduct in a situation which is so similar.
>
>
>
>
> "
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Russ George]

Published on E-catworld is a copy of a provisional patent 
(http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/R_123621412_3.pdf) that 
Rossi says is part of the trouble with IH, the patent was filed by a patent 
filer, Nifong, located very near IH... This clearly substantiates what Rossi is 
saying. How could IH claim that Rossi's E-Cat inventions don't work and thus 
they don't pay their contracted payment while they are filing patent claims 
covering the very same technology. Of course the Rossi haters, actually simply 
haters, are gonna hate regardless of any facts. They will just keep posting 
lies, distortions and hate here in the Vortex. 

-Original Message-
From: a.ashfield [mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 10:13 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

Russ George,
Jones Beene wrote.  "since the evidence does not support that (crimes were 
committed) yet."
But he is the most vociferous one in libeling Rossi and his supporters.

Why they can't wait for evidence like the ERV's report and other actual facts 
suggests some emotional problem or possibly lack of experience.

Russ wrote.  "Vortex is a bleak lesson in internet trolling"

RE: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[a.ashfield]

Russ George,
Jones Beene wrote.  "since the evidence does not support that (crimes 
were committed) yet."

But he is the most vociferous one in libeling Rossi and his supporters.

Why they can't wait for evidence like the ERV's report and other actual 
facts suggests some emotional problem or possibly lack of experience.


Russ wrote.  "Vortex is a bleak lesson in internet trolling"

[Vo]:a short pause HERE in the LENR Rossi vs. IH war

[Peter Gluck]

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/04/mar-10-2016-very-short-pause-in-rossi.html

Web dispute radicalized, a bit of calming down welcome, I hope

peter

-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

RE: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[a.ashfield]

Jones,
Why do you go after Rossi and his supporters with such fanaticism? It 
looks like you have some psychological problem.


Jones wrote.  "Why do you punish yourself like this, Adrian? Rossi lied 
and called Penon a PhD and you and the other sheep then started calling 
him Dr. Penon ... LOL. He is a glorified mechanic. You seem to be a 
smart enough individual to make inferences based on other fields than 
the one you are trained in, but there are realities here that you 
absolutely refuse to consider. You can't really be that hard-headed, can 
you? All of the crime statistic show that the recidivism rate for white 
collar property crimes is extraordinarily high - above 75%. For a 4 time 
loser like Rossi, it is almost a certainty that he has not reformed. 
This is the thing he does best - the financial scam. He is the master of 
the energy version of this scam. But the difference here is that he is 
also a decent inventor and this makes him believe he can pull off the 
perfect scam, sooner or later. Yet - here again we have similar 
circumstances and you are blind to the fact that he has resorted to the 
thing he does best. There is a slight twist since he has found a niche 
where there is a proved anomaly that no one understands yet. That is why 
he is being called a "value added scammer" but make no mistake, he is a 
professional energy swindler of the highest order."

RE: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Russ George]

Vortex is a bleak lesson in internet trolling. The primary tool of internet 
trolls is simply lying. Anyone who has been following this list will readily 
see who is lying and thus a troll. One question is whether the obvious lying 
trolls are on the payroll of some nefarious outfit is of course important but 
unlikely to be answered. Trolls of course know they are trolls and they revel 
in their entrapment of honest and earnest people, that is their sociopath 
reward... nothing new in human sociology, just pitiful bully boys once more. 
Perhaps Vortex needs an ERV who will verify that people participating here are 
who they claim to be and are held identifiable and accountable for their 
statements, truth and libelous slander. At least that might smoke out the more 
deplorable lurking liars... 

-Original Message-
From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 9:29 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

I agree with Craig.  My reading of the the Agreement is the same as his. 
Therefore, I have guessed at some new unforeseen situation that IH thinks would 
make the agreement moot, such as a Government Order of secrecy, or one 
withholding the ability of IH to give IP to the Chinese entities.

I do not presume to know if Florida law or US law automatically cause a change 
in such agreements that become binding on all parties of the agreement.  I can 
believe that a secrecy order would bind all involved, making the agreement, in 
effect, non operative or moot.

Bob Cook

-Original Message-
From: Craig Haynie
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 5:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

If Industrial Heat says that the reactor doesn't work, then why did they apply 
for a patent with Rossi's technology?

https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2015127263&recNum=1&maxRec=&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=&tab=PCT+Biblio

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015127263A3?cl=en

Rossi is now saying that they have just applied for another one:

"Today I have been informed that IH has again made another patent using my name 
as the inventor and my invention, to make a patent assigned to Industrial Heat, 
without my authorization."

If they are patenting Rossi's intellectual property, which he sold to them in 
this deal which IH did not finalize, then this would explain why Rossi is 
suing, instead of just letting it go.

Craig

Re: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Bob Cook]

I agree with Craig.  My reading of the the Agreement is the same as his. 
Therefore, I have guessed at some new unforeseen situation that IH thinks 
would make the agreement moot, such as a Government Order of secrecy, or one 
withholding the ability of IH to give IP to the Chinese entities.


I do not presume to know if Florida law or US law automatically cause a 
change in such agreements that become binding on all parties of the 
agreement.  I can believe that a secrecy order would bind all involved, 
making the agreement, in effect, non operative or moot.


Bob Cook

-Original Message- 
From: Craig Haynie

Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 5:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

If Industrial Heat says that the reactor doesn't work, then why did they
apply for a patent with Rossi's technology?

https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2015127263&recNum=1&maxRec=&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=&tab=PCT+Biblio

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015127263A3?cl=en

Rossi is now saying that they have just applied for another one:

"Today I have been informed that IH has again made another patent using
my name as the inventor and my invention, to make a patent assigned to
Industrial Heat, without my authorization."

If they are patenting Rossi's intellectual property, which he sold to
them in this deal which IH did not finalize, then this would explain why
Rossi is suing, instead of just letting it go.

Craig

Re: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Eric Walker]

> On Apr 10, 2016, at 10:33, Jones Beene  wrote:
> The drama is intense, and IH may be partly to blame for not being proactice.
> 
Yes, indeed. Some of the characters are larger than life. This turn of events 
is as interesting as a courtroom drama.

I'm still trying to understand Rossi's calculus. IH can hire the best law firms 
in the world to defend them, and can, if they wish, allow the case to take as 
long as is needed.  Rossi has hired someone who has only four years of 
practice.  I do not see how Rossi could calculate that he will come out ahead 
if all of this is simply extortion following upon fraud. I get that he appears 
to allow emotion to dictate some decisions, but this scenario is difficult to 
fathom.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:IH selected Fabio Penon to lead the team they chosed for the test of the E-Cat

[Ian Walker]

Hi all

In reply to Jones Beene

There is only your imagination here.

I deal in facts.

Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select, on which to base
their Due Diligence, for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access, they
were so happy with his work and that of the team they selected and that they
agreed for him to run that they spent $10 million dollars as a result.

There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.

IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to be
replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto he was IHs
choice for the ERV and they were fully satisfied with him.


There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.

Kind Regards walker


On 10 April 2016 at 17:10, Ian Walker  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> In reply to Jones Beene
>
> There is only your imagination here. I deal in facts.
>
> Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select on which to
> base their Due Diligence for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access,
> they were so happy with his work and that of the team they select and that
> they agreed for him to run that they spent $10 dollars as a result.
>
> There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.
>
> IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to be
> replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto he was IHs
> choice for the ERV asnd they were fully satisfied with him.
>
> Kind Regards walker
>
> On 10 April 2016 at 17:09, Ian Walker  wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> In reply to Jones Beene
>>
>> There is only imagination here. I deal in facts.
>>
>> Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select on which to
>> base their Due Diligence for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access,
>> they were so happy with his work and that of the team they select and that
>> they agreed for him to run that they spent $10 dollars as a result.
>>
>> There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.
>>
>> IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to be
>> replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto he was IHs
>> choice for the ERV asnd they were fully satisfied with him.
>>
>> Kind Regards walker
>>
>> On 10 April 2016 at 16:57, Jones Beene  wrote:
>>
>>> *From:* Ian Walker
>>>
>>> > The key fact remains - Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH
>>> helped select and approve for the E-Cat Test. IH felt so secure in the
>>> capabilities of the team they selected that agreed with their assessments to
>>> the tune of $10 million.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No. That is not a fact. Part of it comes from Rossi’s allegation in the
>>> complaint and the rest from your imagination
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

RE: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Jones Beene]

Why do you punish yourself like this, Adrian? Rossi lied and called Penon a PhD 
and you and the other sheep then started calling him Dr. Penon ... LOL. He is a 
glorified mechanic.

You seem to be a smart enough individual to make inferences based on other 
fields than the one you are trained in, but there are realities here that you 
absolutely refuse to consider. You can't really be that hard-headed, can you? 
All of the crime statistic show that the recidivism rate for white collar 
property crimes is extraordinarily high - above 75%. For a 4 time loser like 
Rossi, it is almost a certainty that he has not reformed. This is the thing he 
does best - the financial scam.

He is the master of the energy version of this scam. But the difference here is 
that he is also a decent inventor and this makes him believe he can pull off 
the perfect scam, sooner or later. Yet - here again we have similar 
circumstances and you are blind to the fact that he has resorted to the thing 
he does best. There is a slight twist since he has found a niche where there is 
a proved anomaly that no one understands yet. That is why he is being called a 
"value added scammer" but make no mistake, he is a professional energy swindler 
of the highest order.


-Original Message-
From: a.ashfield 

Jones.  "In fact, all of the pictures from JM show a pristine box that simply 
cannot have been an active boiler – it is too clean. Have you ever seen a 
working boiler?"

AA.  It looks like you lack good industrial experience if you have never seen a 
clean boiler.  Not to mention the LENR does not involve combustion.  It does 
make me wonder - what experience have you ever had?

Jones.  "Please note, I am not accusing anyone of a crime or even a civil tort, 
since the evidence does not support that yet"

AA.  But you have repeatedly done just that.  You say Rossi is a swindler and a 
fraud.  Also licensed engineer Fabio Penon was "no more 
than a glorified mechanic."   Later saying you didn't does not negate that.

Just why you would want to copyright your piece of fiction is a mystery.  
Potential customers like ShutRossiDown seem to closed their doors.

Re: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

[H LV]

How a request for proper calibration or a clean fork is transformed
into persecution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdzqTGmEcZE

Harry

Re: [Vo]:IH selected Fabio Penon to lead the team they chosed for the test of the E-Cat

[Ian Walker]

Hi all

In reply to Jones Beene

There is only your imagination here. I deal in facts.

Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select on which to base
their Due Diligence for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access, they
were so happy with his work and that of the team they select and that they
agreed for him to run that they spent $10 dollars as a result.

There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.

IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to be
replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto he was IHs
choice for the ERV asnd they were fully satisfied with him.

Kind Regards walker

On 10 April 2016 at 17:09, Ian Walker  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> In reply to Jones Beene
>
> There is only imagination here. I deal in facts.
>
> Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select on which to
> base their Due Diligence for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access,
> they were so happy with his work and that of the team they select and that
> they agreed for him to run that they spent $10 dollars as a result.
>
> There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.
>
> IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to be
> replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto he was IHs
> choice for the ERV asnd they were fully satisfied with him.
>
> Kind Regards walker
>
> On 10 April 2016 at 16:57, Jones Beene  wrote:
>
>> *From:* Ian Walker
>>
>> > The key fact remains - Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH
>> helped select and approve for the E-Cat Test. IH felt so secure in the
>> capabilities of the team they selected that agreed with their assessments to
>> the tune of $10 million.
>>
>>
>>
>> No. That is not a fact. Part of it comes from Rossi’s allegation in the
>> complaint and the rest from your imagination
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:IH selected Fabio Penon to lead the team they chosed for the test of the E-Cat

[Ian Walker]

Hi all

In reply to Jones Beene

There is only imagination here. I deal in facts.

Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select on which to base
their Due Diligence for purchase of the E-Cat license and IP access, they
were so happy with his work and that of the team they select and that they
agreed for him to run that they spent $10 dollars as a result.

There is no wiggle room here Jones Beene the facts are facts.

IH could at any time in the past few years have asked for him to be
replaced, but the fact remains they did not do so, ipso facto he was IHs
choice for the ERV asnd they were fully satisfied with him.

Kind Regards walker

On 10 April 2016 at 16:57, Jones Beene  wrote:

> *From:* Ian Walker
>
> > The key fact remains - Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH
> helped select and approve for the E-Cat Test. IH felt so secure in the
> capabilities of the team they selected that agreed with their assessments to
> the tune of $10 million.
>
>
>
> No. That is not a fact. Part of it comes from Rossi’s allegation in the
> complaint and the rest from your imagination
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[a.ashfield]

Jones.  "In fact, all of the pictures from JM show a pristine box that 
simply cannot have been an active boiler – it is too clean. Have you 
ever seen a working boiler?"


AA.  It looks like you lack good industrial experience if you have never 
seen a clean boiler.  Not to mention the LENR does not involve 
combustion.  It does make me wonder - what experience have you ever had?


Jones.  "Please note, I am not accusing anyone of a crime or even a 
civil tort, since the evidence does not support that yet"


AA.  But you have repeatedly done just that.  You say Rossi is a 
swindler and a fraud.  Also licensed engineer Fabio Penon was "no more 
than a glorified mechanic."   Later saying you didn't does not negate that.


Just why you would want to copyright your piece of fiction is a 
mystery.  Potential customers like ShutRossiDown seem to closed their 
doors.

RE: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Jones Beene]

From: Craig Haynie 

>>>First, there is no proof that IH agreed to any ERV… 

> I find this to be an odd thing to believe. The license agreement requires
that both Rossi and IH agree to an ERV, and that the ERV will evaluate the
device according to  criteria which are laid out. If IH never agreed to the
ERV, then why wait an entire year to mention it -- and where did they
mention this? 
Rossi alleges they agreed, but for all we know IH can fully document that
they hired their own ERV and Rossi would not let him into the test facility.
You cannot use an allegation in Rossi’s complaint as fact. Wait till you see
IH’s answer.

<>

RE: [Vo]:IH selected Fabio Penon to lead the team they chosed for the test of the E-Cat

[Jones Beene]

From: Ian Walker 

> The key fact remains - Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped 
> select and approve for the E-Cat Test. IH felt so secure in the capabilities 
> of the team they selected that agreed with their assessments to the tune of 
> $10 million.

 

No. That is not a fact. Part of it comes from Rossi’s allegation in the 
complaint and the rest from your imagination





 

[Vo]:IH selected Fabio Penon to lead the team they chosed for the test of the E-Cat

[Ian Walker]

Hi all

The key fact remains

Fabio Penon was the primary engineer that IH helped select and approve for
the E-Cat Test. IH felt so secure in the capabilities of the team they
selected that agreed with their assessments to the tune of $10 million.

Rossi has continued to use the Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification
Specialist that IH were satisfied with, at any time in the last few years
IH could have chosen another engineer, they did not; therefore they were
happy with him to do the job.

HIGH TEMPERATURE E-CAT MODULE Test of July 16th, 2012 for E-Cat
Certification
Was with a three man test team of:
:Fabio Penon , M.Eng. (Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification Specialist)
E-Cat Electronic Control System Specialist
:Fulvio Fabiani, M.Eng.
Radiation Protection Report:
David Bianchini, M.Sc (Physicist, Radiation Measurements Specialist).

Kind Regards walker

Re: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Craig Haynie]

>>>First, there isnoproofthatIHagreedtoanyERV…


I find this to be an odd thing to believe. The license agreement 
requires that both Rossi and IH agree to an ERV, and that the ERV will 
evaluate the device according to  criteria which are laid out. If IH 
never agreed to the ERV, then why wait an entire year to mention it -- 
and where did they mention this? Everything I've read indicates that 
they agreed to the test, agreed to the ERV, and decided afterwards, by 
some other means, that it couldn't be shown to work.


Craig

RE: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Jones Beene]

From: Blaze Spinnaker 

Wow a lot of sound and fury.  Let's all wait for the ERV report or court 
filings from Darden & Co.

Blaze, there will not likely be an ERV report, due to the Lawsuit. First, let 
me say to Walker that there are no selective memories here– only selective 
extracts of Rossi’s unsubstantiated claim, being presented as fact. 

Yes - IH accepted the 2012 Test on face value, before they had their own 
experts assembled - paid a large sum up front to become a player, and hired 
Rossi’s old friends and countrymen to continue the work in Miami. That much is 
not in dispute. It is admirable that they took such a risk since that 2012 
device probably never worked.

The following comments are copyrighted and not for any use outside this forum. 
They are offered as a counterpoint to the blindly supportive comments of 
Rossi’s fan club. There are two sides to most Lawsuits, and IH’s side needs to 
be presented more fairly. They are the good guys here, but that is by default 
as Rossi is a life-long con artist who will be exposed if this goes to trial.

First, there is no proof that IH agreed to any ERV… or that the testing would 
remain exclusively under Rossi’s control. In fact IH seems to have implied that 
they hired experts from Carolina and Rossi would not let them in the facility! 
It is my belief that IH cannot be sure that the blue box device ever ran at 
all, much less produced excess energy. We will have to wait for IH’s legal 
filings to see how deep Rossi’s con-game goes.

The bottom line is that the so-called “customer” was actually the President of 
Leonardo, a plaintiff. And, not only did IH never see any excess heat from any 
device of Rossi – they cannot be sure that it ever ran at all. To the cynic, 
these dynamics could end up looking more like some kind of civil extortion 
attempt than a breach of contract. In fact, all of the pictures from JM show a 
pristine box that simply cannot have been an active boiler – it is too clean. 
Have you ever seen a working boiler? 

Plus, there was no way to use steam in that facility, even if the boiler made 
steam. The steam, if there ever was any, had to be ported to an outside drain 
and was never used for anything of a commercial nature - which implies that the 
“customer” and his so-called business usage of steam is a complete sham.

The so-called ERV report cannot be released for this very reason. First of all, 
it would be an admission that Penon and Fabiani – who are not licensed in the 
USA to do this kind of work, ran an illegal steam boiler in Miami for a year. 
Steam boilers are highly regulated. The civil fine could be several thousand 
dollars per day. The two of them would be immediately deported and probably 
lose their engineering license in Italy, if complaints were filed there. 

IH now has leverage over Johnson, the President of IH, who could lose his legal 
license over permitting an illegal boiler to be run without a permit - if not 
being accused of being a party to a civil extortion attempt, that is: if there 
is proof of that, or if the DA should be able to get an indictment. That’s 
right, this is shaping up to look like more than a contract dispute. 

Look for attorney Johnson to bail very soon, since this is very serious 
business for him, as the President of Leonardo, also a plaintiff and the 
“customer,” and housing the testing space – and therefore a full party to any 
fraud, and there is always a hint of fraud in such conflicting roles. He should 
bail immediately. If the Miami DA thinks Johnson has abetted another of Rossi’s 
scams, then both he and AR are in deep - for more than they bargained for. (I 
am not alleging that either did anything criminal – the DA will decide that).

This explains another reason for the very existence of the Lawsuit. Rossi has 
all this faked data – supposedly 18 volumes and he cannot release it because it 
will screw his friends Penon , Fabiani and Johnson, the President of Leonardo – 
who now, if the DA smells civil extortion, can charge them under RICO. The 
stakes are much higher than you may have imagined because there is so much 
money involved - $100,000,000 plus damages. That is quite a swindle.

Please note, I am not accusing anyone of a crime or even a civil tort, since 
the evidence does not support that yet, and we have not even seen IH’s answer 
to the complaint. The drama is intense, and IH may be partly to blame for not 
being proactice. But a number of recent cases like Fuhrman v. California 
Satellite Systems (1986) have held that a civil action for extortion does in 
fact exist in similar commercial circumstances, but … like most torts this 
requires a showing of damages. 

Rossi definitely has damaged several reputations here – there is no doubt about 
that. Rossi continues to this day to bad mouth IH, Darden, Vaughn etc. They 
came into this with good reputations, Rossi did not. The plaintiffs and their 
Lawyer, made a huge mistake in starting this episode o

[Vo]:Re: I.H. press release responding to Rossi

[Bob Cook]

It could be that Rossi has received some US Government order associated with 
the new patents he has been working on or one or more of the patents listed in 
Exhibit B of the Agreement between IH, Rossi and others, making them secret.  
That is the reason the complaint was filed in the Federal Court in Miami 
instead of the local Miami Civil Circuit Court, which was the specified 
location in the original agreement for resolution of disagreements between IH 
and Rossi and others who are parties to the Agreement.  The local Civil Court 
could not handle such secrecy.  

Rossi was probably advised that the local Miami court would not handle the 
Civil suit or got the Courts advice to this effect.   

IH does not want to pay because the good IP is now secret under US law, and the 
provisions of section 13.4 providing for sharing IP stemming from the listed IP 
in Exhibit B of the Agreement are moot. 

I think the Agreement does provide for sharing new technology developed by the 
“IH  Team” which Rossi was part of—see Section 13.4 noted above.   Note that 
the Exhibit list includes a patent for conversion of photons into electricity.  
However, it is not clear whether or not this patent is valid for conversion of 
charged particles into a EMF or other source of electricity.  It may be this 
invention that is at the center of any secrecy order.  In my mind such a 
invention would have a lot of military significance and would probably become 
the target of a US secrecy order.  

Secrecy Orders can throw  monkey wrenches into the best laid plans of inventors 
and venture capitalists IMHO.  IH may be in hot water with their backers.  I do 
not know what they can do to back away from facts they have provided such 
backers when faced with a secrecy order.  That concern may have been the reason 
for the Dutch entity IH formed to transfer pertinent IP to it, which may be 
outside the scope of a potential future order.  It may have been that when the 
Dutch company was formed there was no secrecy established yet under the US 
invention secrecy act, which was written about 1951---and old liability for 
inventors associated with new  strategic inventions—especially those of 
military significance and energy production. 

All the above thoughts are merely my conjectures, and I have no knowledge of 
their reality or budding reality.  

Bob Cook
From: Teslaalset 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:31 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Subject: Re: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

It seems to me that the whole clash between IH and Rossi is not about patents 
or test results but about progress that Rossi has been making (and probably 
still is making) which is not clearly included in the agreements. The original 
agreement was made when Rossi was concentrating on the so-called 'hotcat' 
technology. In case the hotcat concept would work within the boundaries of the 
agreement IH would pay Rossi the remaining millions. This included the trade 
secrets to prepare the hotcat 'fuel' which is not described sufficiently in the 
patent applications. All this includes a working concept based on hotcat 
technology able to work with COP => 6.

Meanwhile Rossi has made significant progress in understanding how his hotcat 
process works and can be improved. He calls this the x-cat technology, the next 
generation e-cat technology. These insights and progression makes hotcat 
methods probably obsolete because of x-cat superiority. In my view the whole 
fight that emerged between IH and Rossi is not whether conditions have been 
met, but whether knowledge of the x-cat should be included or not. 

Rossi points out that the 'old' conditions in the agreement are still met 
(implemented with hotcat methods) and that IH therefore should fulfil the 
agreed payment. For IH this hotcat knowledge transfer is not profitable anymore 
now Rossi has his x-cat technology in his pocket. 

 


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

  That's your belief. If you are satisfied with it, then it's good. It doesn't 
matter now. If what Rossi says is true, the technology will soon spread. 
Otherwise, it's all a lie. 


  2016-04-09 22:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :


Defkalion never responded to Gamberale. They never disputed the report, or 
published a rebuttal. So I am confident Gamberale's version of events is 
accurate.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

[Craig Haynie]

Reading the license agreement, it looks to me like IH doesn't get the 
option to bail if they don't agree with the result of the 350 day test. 
As I read it, it looks like their only say in completing this deal, 
occurred when they agreed with Rossi who would do the independent 
evaluation. Once that party was chosen, then it looks like they have to 
pay up if the report is positive, and meets the required specifications. 
There doesn't appear to be an option to decline, at this point.


Craig


On 04/10/2016 10:30 AM, Eric Walker wrote:
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Teslaalset 
mailto:robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Rossi points out that the 'old' conditions in the agreement are
still met (implemented with hotcat methods) and that IH therefore
should fulfil the agreed payment. For IH this hotcat knowledge
transfer is not profitable anymore now Rossi has his x-cat
technology in his pocket. 



An idea that occurred to me, perhaps related to this, is that (a) 
Rossi has been approached by new investors but is currently bound by 
agreements with IH, and (b) IH are stalling on making good on their 
side of the deal, because they don't think the testing has been 
rigorous.  How this scenario plays out is that Rossi sees himself as 
in a position of strength, so as soon as IH failed to pay, he 
terminated the agreement and launched the suit in order to recover 
damages, so that he could proceed unhindered with the new venture.


Eric

RE: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

[Russ George]

Here’s a new post I have published on the world of cold fusion. If you think 
there was subterfuge revealed in the story "Who Killed The Electric Car" wait 
til you read about the wild drama emerging about cold fusion, the real 
techno-fix for fossil fuels. You'll not read about it in the major news media, 
which alone is a mystery. 
http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2016/04/09/conspiracy-exposed-against-transformational-energy-tech/
 

 

From: Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 7:31 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

 

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Teslaalset mailto:robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Rossi points out that the 'old' conditions in the agreement are still met 
(implemented with hotcat methods) and that IH therefore should fulfil the 
agreed payment. For IH this hotcat knowledge transfer is not profitable anymore 
now Rossi has his x-cat technology in his pocket. 

 

An idea that occurred to me, perhaps related to this, is that (a) Rossi has 
been approached by new investors but is currently bound by agreements with IH, 
and (b) IH are stalling on making good on their side of the deal, because they 
don't think the testing has been rigorous.  How this scenario plays out is that 
Rossi sees himself as in a position of strength, so as soon as IH failed to 
pay, he terminated the agreement and launched the suit in order to recover 
damages, so that he could proceed unhindered with the new venture.

 

Eric

 

Re: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:31 AM, Teslaalset 
wrote:

Rossi points out that the 'old' conditions in the agreement are still met
> (implemented with hotcat methods) and that IH therefore should fulfil the
> agreed payment. For IH this hotcat knowledge transfer is not profitable
> anymore now Rossi has his x-cat technology in his pocket.


An idea that occurred to me, perhaps related to this, is that (a) Rossi has
been approached by new investors but is currently bound by agreements with
IH, and (b) IH are stalling on making good on their side of the deal,
because they don't think the testing has been rigorous.  How this scenario
plays out is that Rossi sees himself as in a position of strength, so as
soon as IH failed to pay, he terminated the agreement and launched the suit
in order to recover damages, so that he could proceed unhindered with the
new venture.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Jack Cole]

This is another silly argument used by Rossi to cast himself as the
victim.  That patent was filed for on 2/20/15.  It took IH awhile to a)
figure out that the previous results were questionable, and b) attempt to
replicate with better methodology.  It also took time for the results of
other replicators to come in (with the results of expert scientists being
consistent with hobbyist replicators).  Of course we have a few tantalizing
results here and there that suggest either the results are in error or that
the effect is unpredictable and unreliable.

I would almost bet that Rossi pulled the "charges" from the plant when IH
said the test was over.  The end result is that no qualified scientists can
examine a "working" E-cat plant.  That way he can say something like, "It
was working and I was just getting ready to put in new charges, but here
comes the evil IH to shut down the test.  It was working well (just less
efficiently) before that!  Look, I worked 16 hours a day for the last month
compiling 12 volumes of how evil they are and I'm putting together a
blockbuster chronicle of how this company used me.  In the meantime, I'm
continuing with my heat, electricity, and propellant thrust making super
E-cat quarkX to be produced with a fully robotized plant in millions of
pieces per year, F8!"  Can people not see how ridiculous this has become?

Meanwhile, companies like Brillouin and Lenuco continue working in relative
silence to produce technology that may (we hope) actually work.  Hopefully,
IH will stay the course and continue investing in reputable companies as
they seem to be doing.

Jack


On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 7:41 AM Craig Haynie 
wrote:

> If Industrial Heat says that the reactor doesn't work, then why did they
> apply for a patent with Rossi's technology?
>
>
> https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2015127263&recNum=1&maxRec=&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=&tab=PCT+Biblio
>
> https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015127263A3?cl=en
>
> Rossi is now saying that they have just applied for another one:
>
> "Today I have been informed that IH has again made another patent using
> my name as the inventor and my invention, to make a patent assigned to
> Industrial Heat, without my authorization."
>
> If they are patenting Rossi's intellectual property, which he sold to
> them in this deal which IH did not finalize, then this would explain why
> Rossi is suing, instead of just letting it go.
>
> Craig
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Blaze Spinnaker]

Patents are far more complicated than just work/don't work.   Just because
some claim in some patent might actually work, doesn't necessarily mean the
whole things works.  That claim is still useful and IH was paying for the
R&D.



On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:41 AM, Craig Haynie 
wrote:

> If Industrial Heat says that the reactor doesn't work, then why did they
> apply for a patent with Rossi's technology?
>
>
> https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2015127263&recNum=1&maxRec=&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=&tab=PCT+Biblio
>
> https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015127263A3?cl=en
>
> Rossi is now saying that they have just applied for another one:
>
> "Today I have been informed that IH has again made another patent using my
> name as the inventor and my invention, to make a patent assigned to
> Industrial Heat, without my authorization."
>
> If they are patenting Rossi's intellectual property, which he sold to them
> in this deal which IH did not finalize, then this would explain why Rossi
> is suing, instead of just letting it go.
>
> Craig
>
>

[Vo]:Industrial Heat Patent?

[Craig Haynie]

If Industrial Heat says that the reactor doesn't work, then why did they 
apply for a patent with Rossi's technology?


https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2015127263&recNum=1&maxRec=&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=&tab=PCT+Biblio

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015127263A3?cl=en

Rossi is now saying that they have just applied for another one:

"Today I have been informed that IH has again made another patent using 
my name as the inventor and my invention, to make a patent assigned to 
Industrial Heat, without my authorization."


If they are patenting Rossi's intellectual property, which he sold to 
them in this deal which IH did not finalize, then this would explain why 
Rossi is suing, instead of just letting it go.


Craig

Re: [Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Blaze Spinnaker]

Wow a lot of sound and fury.  Let's all wait for the ERV report or court
filings from Darden & Co.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 2:46 AM, Ian Walker  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Some people seem to suffer from a selective memory glitch.
>
> HIGH TEMPERATURE E-CAT MODULE Test of July 16th, 2012 for E-Cat
> Certification
> Was with a three man test team of:
> :Fabio Penon , M.Eng. (Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification Specialist)
> E-Cat Electronic Control System Specialist
> :Fulvio Fabiani, M.Eng.
> Radiation Protection Report:
> David Bianchini, M.Sc (Physicist, Radiation Measurements Specialist).
>
> The test was at the behest of IH and paid for by them to their
> specification, using people they selected and agreed too to the tune of $10
> million.
>
> Rossi merely continued to use the Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification
> Specialist that IH were satisfied with, at any time in the last few years
> IH could have chosen another engineer, they did not; therefore they were
> happy with him to do the job.
>
> Kind Regards walker
>

[Vo]:Selective memories IH selected and agreed to the team to test the E-Cat

[Ian Walker]

Hi all

Some people seem to suffer from a selective memory glitch.

HIGH TEMPERATURE E-CAT MODULE Test of July 16th, 2012 for E-Cat
Certification
Was with a three man test team of:
:Fabio Penon , M.Eng. (Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification Specialist)
E-Cat Electronic Control System Specialist
:Fulvio Fabiani, M.Eng.
Radiation Protection Report:
David Bianchini, M.Sc (Physicist, Radiation Measurements Specialist).

The test was at the behest of IH and paid for by them to their
specification, using people they selected and agreed too to the tune of $10
million.

Rossi merely continued to use the Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification
Specialist that IH were satisfied with, at any time in the last few years
IH could have chosen another engineer, they did not; therefore they were
happy with him to do the job.

Kind Regards walker

Re: [Vo]:I.H. press release responding to Rossi

[Teslaalset]

It seems to me that the whole clash between IH and Rossi is not about
patents or test results but about progress that Rossi has been making (and
probably still is making) which is not clearly included in the agreements.
The original agreement was made when Rossi was concentrating on the
so-called 'hotcat' technology. In case the hotcat concept would work within
the boundaries of the agreement IH would pay Rossi the remaining millions.
This included the trade secrets to prepare the hotcat 'fuel' which is not
described sufficiently in the patent applications. All this includes a
working concept based on hotcat technology able to work with COP => 6.

Meanwhile Rossi has made significant progress in understanding how his
hotcat process works and can be improved. He calls this the x-cat
technology, the next generation e-cat technology. These insights and
progression makes hotcat methods probably obsolete because of x-cat
superiority. In my view the whole fight that emerged between IH and Rossi
is not whether conditions have been met, but whether knowledge of the x-cat
should be included or not.

Rossi points out that the 'old' conditions in the agreement are still met
(implemented with hotcat methods) and that IH therefore should fulfil the
agreed payment. For IH this hotcat knowledge transfer is not profitable
anymore now Rossi has his x-cat technology in his pocket.



On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> That's your belief. If you are satisfied with it, then it's good. It
> doesn't matter now. If what Rossi says is true, the technology will soon
> spread. Otherwise, it's all a lie.
>
> 2016-04-09 22:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
>
>>
>> Defkalion never responded to Gamberale. They never disputed the report,
>> or published a rebuttal. So I am confident Gamberale's version of events is
>> accurate.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>