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Jonny McIntosh wrote: I reckon your wrong, too. And the above, I think, is the problem. The is is just what you get given to you, e.g. Beethoven's 9th is, even in essence, Beethoven's entire 9th. What you try and do is distill it into something purer and more minimal. The terminology is misleading you here, though. You are just doing something different. No more and no less. That needn't invalidate anything like the politics or philosophy surrounding the work in question, though. So you're tone shifting isn't wrong, but it certainly isn't the essence either. It's just an approach. It's like someone doing an analysis of Hamlet, say. If the essence of Hamlet were, for example, the philosophy of self it represents to some, then it would be better expressed as an essay on the philosophy of self. Obviously, it wouldn't really, though: the essence of Hamlet is Hamlet. It is what it is. i'm with the non-reductionists on this one. you can't just compress an artistic piece into its constituent elements and legitimately claim that it represents the essentialist nature of the original, because trying to accurately define the fundamental components is ultimately a matter of interpretation. glyn
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Jim (and everyone else) That's the most important and poignent question I've seen asked during this entire thread... What does happen now? Business as usual? by the way...the more I see that commercial the more I dislike it. visually it's not the most stunning and the music doesn't really fit the image. Everything is too stiff for such funky music...if those robots heard the music they would move differently...I'm thinking more like the legs and torsos in Rockit by H. Hancock. Ford just doesn't have the Funk! ;) Fred From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Deliverator) To: 313 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] err... Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:56:16 -0500 Fred- Are you buying it? I got in a rather lengthy discussion over a few beers this past weekend on this topic. Admittedly, I have more than just a slight buzz going at the time but..After about an hour or so discussing the ford focus commerical I came to the following conclusion: 1.)Hooray for Juan, the man has skills and talent. He deserves recognition. 2.)This is a sad day for Detroit Techno. Whether we like it or not, it's been co-opted. I will always love this music, it's a part of my blood. I'm just left with a lingering question: What now? out jim http://www.mp3.com/zarathustra http://www.assasins.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big
i just wish these guys would stop blowing up my mailbox... hehe take care, Mike np: Heiko Laux-Live at Fuse Pt. 1 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:31:59 EST In a message dated 12/6/00 4:35:14 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i believe the common goal of techno is to create music that hasn't been heard before. i've heard plenty of artists say the same thing most notably juan atkins and jeff mills. is this not enough of a unifying definition and a common goal for ya? : ) kao jyan Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that. All this intellectualism is unnecessary. Music please...maestro? G l y p h - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
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-Original Message- From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... SNIP As for the music I think that darw_n is correct. Techno and House are very different from hip-hop for example, in that I really don't think it is possible for these artforms to be co-opted. I haven't come up with anything more than a vague theory as to WHY (if anyone has I'd be interested in seeing it)...but I just know that we won't see Sony perverting the artform. It is what it isand I don't think it can be changed except by us. I think the fact that there are usually no vocals has a lot do do with it. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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imitating Bobby DeNiro from Analyze Me: Youyouyou're good!!! =) g l y p h In a message dated 12/7/00 10:16:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: darw_n and mee-thod wrote: the techno movement arose from the youth of detroit seeking to locate themselves in a future that was different from the urban decay of the present. *cue mental image of Belleville* LOL! and indeed, this is the same sentiment that has permeated all of rave and techno... Which contradicts your theory of the techno movement having no unifying principles So which one is it? I'll even further that by saying that techno and rave exists in its strength that it does because this generation, and the last generation has felt nothing but apathy and boredom, techno was born... Quite the contrary. Techno was born because there were people that were *not* apathic, because there were people that heard a certain sound and ran with it. People that were actively pursuing a goal, because there were people that just went out and made music, set up labels and distribution companies, DJed, threw parties and whatnot, all just for the fun of it. People that stuck with it, despite odds being stacked heavily against them in the 80s and early 90s. Techno exists in its current form and strength mainly because the distinction between producer and consumer (both in the broad sense of the word) is blurred, as opposed to the regular pop scene. As long as we can keep that distinction blurry, then techno can generate dozens of Rolling Stone covers, MTV awards, car commericals and whatnot, and it will still be techno. It is what it is. Otto
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What about rock then? Do Fugazi, The Beatles and Manowar share an agenda? Bravo!!! That is a great rebuttal!!! The motive for rock-n-roll as we see it today was based on both economic and labor issues in America. As some of the creators of rock, they were almost children of the gospel scene... Fugazi is in the same angst line as black flag and others, with a clear message inside the lyrics (I forget the lyrics, its been a few), but still dealing with blue collar middle class issues... Look at all of Bruce Springsten's lyrics, and country's, there are clear similarity in social political stance... The Beatles are a little different, nor would I call them rock , but they were a product really of marketing at first, talented yes, but molded and marketed in a way that propelled them to the top, they played pop music at first. It should be noted that they *quickly* moved to support the growing sentiment against war and civil rights issues (lennon want a borderless world for instance), after just an album or two, they became very political, heavily defined by a political agenda... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
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On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:17:28PM -0600, Chris Ege wrote: What about rock then? Do Fugazi, The Beatles and Manowar share an agenda? !bigup citing manowar in a 313 argument Of course you know that was done specifically for you. :) -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Otto Koppius wrote: I think one big assumption that's being made throughout this discussion is that Ford decided who to nominate. That decision is made by the AMA organisation, not the sponsors. The AMA most likely decides the nominees based on sales and publicity etc. and then there's no surprise that those three names come up (it's not exactly the first time this sort of thing happens). When Ford first started airing the Ford ads late 1999 they showed the small hatchback model pulling into a parking garage. A group of raver types are sitting in the car, the car being squished between two cars parked too close. So they pop the hatch and clumb out the back, all the while a house track is playing in the background. So it could be the marketing people put two and 2.5 together a while ago. And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). Is the ad I'm referring to the one y'all are talking about? Steven White steve at barking cat dot org aytch tee tee pea colon slash slash barking cat dot org slash
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I think that was a Honda comercial that had the raver types but anyone breathing today would have to be either blind and deaf, a media hermit, or clueless to have not been exposed to images of ravers or electronic dance music of one genre or another being used in whatever media format. So it's not even a question of putting anything together to get the Ford Focus commercial. Any marketing department that doesn't include rave culture (as they call it) in their campaigns is going to lose out. They know it, we know it. The big question is: Are you buying it? Fred PS The next wave will most likely be throw-backs to the 80's. I ain't joking. When Ford first started airing the Ford ads late 1999 they showed the small hatchback model pulling into a parking garage. A group of raver types are sitting in the car, the car being squished between two cars parked too close. So they pop the hatch and clumb out the back, all the while a house track is playing in the background. So it could be the marketing people put two and 2.5 together a while ago. And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). Is the ad I'm referring to the one y'all are talking about? Steven White steve at barking cat dot org aytch tee tee pea colon slash slash barking cat dot org slash - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
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Re: FORD COULD CARE LESS ABOUT TECHNO! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL CARS! that's the bottom line. AMEN BROTHER! Please believe that everyone! Don't think that they are friendly to techno music anymore than they are friendly to countrywestern New Age music. What they are most friendly to is a guy named George Washington. Well, George and Shell Oil. Check these sites for info on how Ford has felt towards others: http://www.kwaku.org/bh/ford/boycott_ford_motor_company.htm http://www.millennium-debate.org/ind21july.htm http://detnews.com/menu/stories/45459.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm And let's not forget the ongoing battle about the tire recall... if they thought there was a big enough market for Midget Transsexual Racecar Drivers they would exploit that. Oh I wish they would...then I might buy one of their crappy cars. it's all about appealing to a mass of people and then moving in for the kill, it has about as much to do with techno as the AMA has to do with music :) Wha? You mean that the AMA isn't about quality but quantity? Oh man! My whole outlook on life is totally trashed now! What can I believe in anymore? The only award I think most techno artists would accept would be one voted on by their fans. Maybe an award ceremony at the next DEMF? Fred _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big
In a message dated 12/6/00 4:35:14 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i believe the common goal of techno is to create music that hasn't been heard before. i've heard plenty of artists say the same thing most notably juan atkins and jeff mills. is this not enough of a unifying definition and a common goal for ya? : ) kao jyan Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that. All this intellectualism is unnecessary. Music please...maestro? G l y p h
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While I'm sure there are good intentions in this... I think this points out the fundamental flaw in awards systems: it aims to declare something better than something else. One of the things I enjoyed most about the DEMF performances is the rich diversity and overall top-notch talent represented. I think the awards shows are (and I'm sure this comes as no surprise to anyone) money-driven pageants of PURE SHAME :). Really though... I think the recognition comes in merely performing at the festival... which I held and will hold in extremely high regard. That is, unless they start selling the Ford Focus DEMF Edition :). Ryan Heard -Original Message- From: FRED MCMURRY [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 1:57 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [313] err... snip The only award I think most techno artists would accept would be one voted on by their fans. Maybe an award ceremony at the next DEMF? Fred
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--- Steven White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What we know and what they miss is so simple: all that has to happen is for people to hear the music with an open mind. Word. -Dave- __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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darwin's ancestor in a primordial soup bid suggested: could go on and on. So invite someone to say, the techno movement has ___. fill in the blank. the techno movement arose from the youth of detroit seeking to locate themselves in a future that was different from the urban decay of the present. emma mee-thod -it's in the way that you groove it-
RE: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big
Go into politics instead of boring us with pointless discussions about techno, geeez it's just music!!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I am not saticfied with that, it would imply that we are pretty boring and lazy. No, there is causation for everything, things just don't happen for the hell of it. There is something to keep in mind, there is a global scene in which embodies techno, the rave scene. There is definate reason behind that scene, it is not existing for the hell of it, there is very real sociological catelysts behind it, and again, there is real reason for the rave scene clentching onto techno like it has... Another thing, artists often disregard more scientific explainations in that science isn't all that artsy, and inderstandably so. But I propose that this is why Jeff Mills and others have complete skirted more scientific explainations, its not art to do so... And so be it, and visa versa, it is my desire to interpret what is happening. BTW, we have gone nearly 15 years with barely any analysis... and analysis is *definately* needed when a movement overtakes the entire globe, almost all authority figures are scared, so on and so forth... you cant just brush it off as a social fluke... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: how is it possible to ruin *real* techno?? what would be ruined? When Basement Jaxx were high up in the charts and I was telling ppl I was spinning house... Ppl expected cheesiness of that variety. This is how techno could be ruined, wannabes that make millions out of the ideas of innovators will take it to the mainstream, it'll become formulaic, lose any hint of innovation between releases, it'll be watered down and a whole new generation of Paul Oakenfold's will claim that they were there at the start of the techno explosion, ppl will praise them as innovators instead. It'll just generally give techno a bad name... They'll be ppl on mailing lists like this talking about it like we talk about trance... answer these questions and you will see the end result... You can not ruin something so ambiguous and positionless... All the kids out there that only hear what's in the charts think that Moby is techno. It won't destroy the music we love but it will corrupt it's image. It won't stand for what it's stood for so long... Besides, Underground Resistance call themselves so for a reason. Nick (Dj Pacific:) __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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--- darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 03:25:45PM -0800, darw_n wrote: since I have yet to hear a real stance from techno UR? sure, but I can point to many many groups within the techno scene who have entirely polar opposite views, UR's is simply one position in a near infinite amount of stances, varying from one extreme to another. Because of this highly factioned system of opinions, the only just position that indeed covers the entire movement is none at all... This is what sets the movement apart from other genres, the rules to define techno are very loose. The fact that techno is such a broad genre is one of the advantages of it being underground. If it became mainstream, it'd become formulaic (or rather the mainstream clones would). Nick (Dj Pacific:) If techno stops being underground __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Re: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big
Go into politics instead of boring us with pointless discussions about techno, geeez it's just music!!! mmm h, riggght... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
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At least with politics, you get PAID to talk just to hear the sound of your own voice. --On Thursday, December 07, 2000 9:30 AM -0800 darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Go into politics instead of boring us with pointless discussions about techno, geeez it's just music!!! mmm h, riggght... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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darw_n and mee-thod wrote: the techno movement arose from the youth of detroit seeking to locate themselves in a future that was different from the urban decay of the present. *cue mental image of Belleville* LOL! and indeed, this is the same sentiment that has permeated all of rave and techno... Which contradicts your theory of the techno movement having no unifying principles So which one is it? I'll even further that by saying that techno and rave exists in its strength that it does because this generation, and the last generation has felt nothing but apathy and boredom, techno was born... Quite the contrary. Techno was born because there were people that were *not* apathic, because there were people that heard a certain sound and ran with it. People that were actively pursuing a goal, because there were people that just went out and made music, set up labels and distribution companies, DJed, threw parties and whatnot, all just for the fun of it. People that stuck with it, despite odds being stacked heavily against them in the 80s and early 90s. Techno exists in its current form and strength mainly because the distinction between producer and consumer (both in the broad sense of the word) is blurred, as opposed to the regular pop scene. As long as we can keep that distinction blurry, then techno can generate dozens of Rolling Stone covers, MTV awards, car commericals and whatnot, and it will still be techno. It is what it is. Otto
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Which contradicts your theory of the techno movement having no unifying principles So which one is it? Yes your right, I just confused my whole statement, lemme clarify that... Techno doesn't have a *defined* message, something that most (if not all) past movements had... Instead, techno is a device for imagination aimed towards escapism (both possitive and negative). Techno, because it says nothing recognizable, is a tool for individuals to use in whatever way they see fit. In listening to techno, one person can see a future in which the present society doesn't give, one person can see an emotion in which they can't express, one person can see a statement in which they can't normally express. Techno, because of its message ambiguity, can be everything and anything in meaning, *as long as it allows the listener to escape with it, in any direction they see fit*. This is why toneshifting is so appealing, wheather realized or not. Since toneshifting implies that every individual can project onto the music whatever melody and emotion they want, the music becomes totally unique to each listener, and because of that, the music lacks any real defining meaning, instead, it is interactive, the listener is not told what to feel, is not told a specific message being drawn out from the artist, it is the listener that does these things... I will use an arguement to demonstrate that I had with someone else on this list privately... ...Perhaps if we look at this way, in levels of interpretation... To look at a fascist propaganda poster would entail interpretation, but the message behind it is clear, the work projects *outward* to the looker... to look at perfectly round ball in which someone has proclaimed as art also requires interpretation, however, the message is almost none existent, the looker projects *onto* the work (emotionshifting)... To listen to Brittany spears requires interpretation, but the message is clear, the song projects *outward* to the listener... to listen to a lock groove on c side requires interpretation, but the message is almost none existent, the listener projects *onto* the song (toneshifting)... Quite the contrary. Techno was born because there were people that were *not* apathic, because there were people that heard a certain sound and ran with it. Yes, but you have to admit that both techno and rave are on a totally different platform than just parties with some experimental music, there is a reason why ravers are almost uniformly excapists, there is a reason why techno people are so passionate about it, I am trying to figure out these reasons... It is what it is. See, I just can't let something be like that, I want, no need, to know what that is is... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
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On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Otto Koppius wrote: darw_n and mee-thod wrote: the techno movement arose from the youth of detroit seeking to locate themselves in a future that was different from the urban decay of the present. *cue mental image of Belleville* LOL! Yeah, maybe better argued that it grew out of black men dropped into a bleak suburban environment like astronauts onto mars. Anyway great to see Otto back in the 313 mix! He just snuck back on with no fanfare! There should have been a marching band!
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Talking with darw_n makes my brain hurt a wee bit, but here goes... See, I just can't let something be like that, I want, no need, to know what that is is... I reckon your wrong, too. And the above, I think, is the problem. The is is just what you get given to you, e.g. Beethoven's 9th is, even in essence, Beethoven's entire 9th. What you try and do is distill it into something purer and more minimal. The terminology is misleading you here, though. You are just doing something different. No more and no less. That needn't invalidate anything like the politics or philosophy surrounding the work in question, though. So you're tone shifting isn't wrong, but it certainly isn't the essence either. It's just an approach. It's like someone doing an analysis of Hamlet, say. If the essence of Hamlet were, for example, the philosophy of self it represents to some, then it would be better expressed as an essay on the philosophy of self. Obviously, it wouldn't really, though: the essence of Hamlet is Hamlet. It is what it is. I humbly await your mind numbing rays of wisdom ;) Jonny
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darw_n wrote: Techno doesn't have a *defined* message, something that most (if not all) past movements had... You did make the case for punk, but even so I can't really agree with this, although that may be because the terms message and movements are too vague in this context. For instance, is a movement a new musical genre or does it have to have a separate social scene that goes with it? Similarly, messages can range from very narrowly defined to very broadly defined, they can be implicitly defined, etc. etc. What would the message be for reggae, house, grunge, disco or classical music? Instead, techno is a device for imagination Yes. aimed towards escapism (both possitive and negative). But why escapism? Or rather, how is this different from other music (any music is a device for imagination)? Or even broader, doesn't imagination *imply* escapism? Because if you have to imagine it, by definition you have to escape from your own reality into your 'imagined reality'. Techno, because it says nothing recognizable, is a tool for individuals to use in whatever way they see fit. Only partly. There are also elements in techno that virtually impose a certain feeling on listeners: a big 909 kick for energy, strings for a number of emotions, a breakdown for that ecstatic feeling, etc. (archetypes of musical elements anyone?) And in this respect, how would techno (or house) differ from classical music or from a rock song sung in Sanskrit (like Kula Shaker did)? Neither of those say anything recognizable, yet they differ quite substantially in their respective audiences and scenes. Quite the contrary. Techno was born because there were people that were *not* apathic, because there were people that heard a certain sound and ran with it. Yes, but you have to admit that both techno and rave are on a totally different platform than just parties with some experimental music, That *is* how it started though: great dance music, nothing more, nothing less. And only later did it evolve into something that gave people an opportunity to create and hence build and sustain the 'scene'. there is a reason why ravers are almost uniformly excapists, there is a reason why techno people are so passionate about it, I am trying to figure out these reasons... Because people so easily can create a (tiny) part of the techno scene (parties, records, DJ sets, magazines, reviews, etc etc), i.e. the blurring of producer/consumer, they feel more involved. It is what it is. See, I just can't let something be like that, I want, no need, to know what that is is... So do I. But there is a limit as to how far reductionism will take you. Some things can only be understood as a 'whole' thing, they cannot be explained through understanding of the parts that make up the whole. Music is more than a sequence of notes. Otto
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-Original Message- From: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Otto Koppius [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Otto Koppius wrote: darw_n and mee-thod wrote: the techno movement arose from the youth of detroit seeking to locate themselves in a future that was different from the urban decay of the present. *cue mental image of Belleville* LOL! Yeah, maybe better argued that it grew out of black men dropped into a bleak suburban environment like astronauts onto mars. Anyway great to see Otto back in the 313 mix! He just snuck back on with no fanfare! There should have been a marching band! Agreed! Otto, do you have The Epistemology of Techno post you sent out a while ago? I think it's time to bust it out again. It seems to me it would answer a lot of the err... discussion. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Darwin said: Techno has no single political, social, economic banner in which all stand united, none at all. Someone else replied: What artistic, social or political movement ever has? None. Darwin said: fine rebuttal, but there *was* a general underlying common drive. Every youth music movement has had a general drive, be it war or whatever... So I invite someone to say, the techno movement has ___. fill in the blank. Youth The common underlying factor in all of these situations is not really a goal, but youth. In youth we are all very emotional, therefore we make things to be passionate about - be it art, music or anything else. I am not saying that ALL people have to be young, but the emotions and feelings associated with such movements are related to youth (or the feeling of youth.) We all associate our emotions with these underlying goals and thus, movements are made. Sometimes movements bring out this emotion in us, because we can relate to the things that are transpiring. I think the things that today's youth are inspired and emotional about, can all fit into the blank. Racism would be an easy out, but I do see that as motivation for _some_ works. There will always be that Angst in teens, and that emotional cloud over the head of the youth.. Let me add another disclaimer: I don't by any means want to make someone feel that I have no respect for all of these other causes that have already taken place and had their respective musics and\or arts. I feel this youthful passion just adds to things like the rock of the 60's/70's movement. So, although we have no pinpoint cause to found a movement around, we still have the same feelings and could have the same result, given a sound cause. Cheers! Dennis BTW, I often sound heated in typing, I am not, I enjoy this debate, in fact I just submitted a paper to the sociology dept. today for review (albeit, dealing more with the rave scene) darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err...
Fred- Are you buying it? I got in a rather lengthy discussion over a few beers this past weekend on this topic. Admittedly, I have more than just a slight buzz going at the time but..After about an hour or so discussing the ford focus commerical I came to the following conclusion: 1.)Hooray for Juan, the man has skills and talent. He deserves recognition. 2.)This is a sad day for Detroit Techno. Whether we like it or not, it's been co-opted. I will always love this music, it's a part of my blood. I'm just left with a lingering question: What now? out jim http://www.mp3.com/zarathustra http://www.assasins.net
Re: [313] err...
I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err...
how is it possible to ruin *real* techno?? what would be ruined? answer these questions and you will see the end result... You can not ruin something so ambiguous and positionless... IMHO of course... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com - Original Message - From: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] err...
hi What i want to know is who nominates these techno artists, is it sale based? The beat of a new generation. The music of the new millennium. Let your voice be heard! Vote in the first-ever Techno category, brought to you by Ford Focus. As far as i can see all these bands r bassicly electronic rock. Maybe we should let our voices be heard!!! Sam __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Re: [313] err...
Perhaps a better question might bedoes this ruin the ability of PERFORMERS to accumulate the fruits of their labor. Does Moby's presence on the SciFi channel proclaiming I am SciFi in a commercial affect the ability of May, Atkins, Craig, and others to put their music out there...and to be compensated (however this is defined)? I actually don't know the answer to this question. As for the music I think that darw_n is correct. Techno and House are very different from hip-hop for example, in that I really don't think it is possible for these artforms to be co-opted. I haven't come up with anything more than a vague theory as to WHY (if anyone has I'd be interested in seeing it)...but I just know that we won't see Sony perverting the artform. It is what it isand I don't think it can be changed except by us. peace lks
Re: [313] err...
I would guess, not much. As Nader joked, ... however I _do_ think that Gore lost _me_ the election. The true techno artists might get a little more money if it were not for the likes of these electronica artists. But, if it were not for them, would there be a all new techno catagory brought to us by ford focus? And who _would_ be standing up there? Not that I'm really sure I would miss it (it being the best in techno award). Awards are BS anyways, IMO. -Derek Perhaps a better question might bedoes this ruin the ability of PERFORMERS to accumulate the fruits of their labor. Does Moby's presence on the SciFi channel proclaiming I am SciFi in a commercial affect the ability of May, Atkins, Craig, and others to put their music out there...and to be compensated (however this is defined)? I actually don't know the answer to this question.
Re: [313] err...
Techno and House are very different from hip-hop for example, in that I really don't think it is possible for these artforms to be co-opted. I haven't come up with anything more than a vague theory as to WHY (if anyone has I'd be interested in seeing it).. simple, techno is generally wordless and politically positionless, with none of the gaudy projective layers of pop, rap or whatever, like chorus and verse... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
In a message dated 12/5/00 6:12:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Ok, when I looked at that site, a couple things come to mind: 1. Vote in the first ever Techno-category brought to you by Ford Focus. In regards to this, I think the mainstream made a step in the right direction for they are now acknowledging this genre as a valid genre. 2. As for the names you have to choose from, well, you must understand that those names have at one time, made it to the charts and are only what the big record executives know of. I also think it comes back to the better techno artist's reluctance to work with major record companies for fear that their music will lose its quality marketing-wise and/or from the paranoia of the executives, all the way signing wannabes which will run techno's good name down to the ground. Bottomline is folks...you can't depend on a car company to do the job of the music industry. This site doesn't surprise me as much as it disappoints me to the point of who cares??. In any case, who the hell needs the American Music Awards when you have MusikUndMaschine which is FAR from making a mockery of this music. G l y p h.
Re: [313] err...
In a message dated 12/5/00 7:19:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but I just know that we won't see Sony perverting the artform. It is what it isand I don't think it can be changed except by us. Ok, sorry, I have to break it down to this...AMERICA SUCKS. Ahem..(for those all so patriotic folks on this list...don't get me wrong, I love the land but damn, the current general population's got awful tastes in music. Need I have to say that there are exceptions? =) Peace, G l y p h
Re: [313] err...
And in case you're tempted to click the Ford Focus ad, it doesn't play No UFOs. It does have a three-part soundtrack, and No UFOs is not one of them. Two electronic tracks, one kinda funky crap thing. It also has a music section, with a lot of info on the retirement of Garth Brooks courtesy of Rolling Stone. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo -Original Message- From: Carissa Tintinalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? From: atomly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [313] err... Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:31:00 -0600 http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [313] err...
That would have to be the king of all cyclical 313 threads. I'm gonna be brief for once. I think *most* of us would like to see this get a little more recognition, and *most* of us understand that there would be *some* harm to the scene if Detroit techno went, and remained top 40. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo -Original Message- From: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ ___ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [313] err...
This makes me so bleepin' mad!!! I say we should e-mail ABC our thoughts. I just did. You can too at: http://abc.go.com/abc/help/contact.html
Re: [313] err...
techno and house are also faceless. d From: darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] err... Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:24:53 -0800 Techno and House are very different from hip-hop for example, in that I really don't think it is possible for these artforms to be co-opted. I haven't come up with anything more than a vague theory as to WHY (if anyone has I'd be interested in seeing it).. simple, techno is generally wordless and politically positionless, with none of the gaudy projective layers of pop, rap or whatever, like chorus and verse... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, darw_n wrote: simple, techno is generally wordless and politically positionless, with none of the gaudy projective layers of pop, rap or whatever, like chorus and verse... I don't think I can agree with what you've said here. Yes, it certainly is true that techno doesn't have verses and choruses but a lot of techno certainly does follow the four-bar or eight-bar or sixteen-bar musical form that pop/rock/hip-hop follow. You can even point out bridges in some techno tracks. But I don't think this is bad per se. It's what a well done track does with these forms that is important, to me at least. Steven White steve at barking cat dot org aytch tee tee pea colon slash slash barking cat dot org slash
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id rather abc and the mainstream think fatboy slim was an important part of techno this yr. im happy with it being underground. and yes, it still is underground. arent lists like this whats its all about? eff abc, eff em all.
Re: [313] err...
Yes, it certainly is true that techno doesn't have verses and choruses but a lot of techno certainly does follow the four-bar or eight-bar or sixteen-bar musical form that pop/rock/hip-hop follow. You can even point out bridges in some techno tracks. But I don't think this is bad per se. It's what a well done track does with these forms that is important, to me at least. yes that's true. I would rebut however by saying that these are the basic necessity for techno, anything above it is simply decoration... I don't think its bad either, but I was simply using verse and chorus as example... BUT, Detroit techno is indeed a little different in that it is very much tied to jazz and blues, almost equaled to... But the essence of techno is simplicity and repetition, it is the base if you will to all other forms of music... consider this: If you take an elaborate Opera, you can theoretically distill it, all while keeping its general feel, down to techno. Ambient may or may not work, it depends on your approach. But you could distill the Opera down to one crucial segment (which probably was the musical seed for the composer interesting enough) consisting of a few notes, and repeat it... so it could be said that techno is the universal music in that all music can be distilled down to techno... Another example, Beethoven's 9th, the Ode to Joy movement. You can easily see that there are simply a few key notes in which the entire symphony is based off of. If you took those key notes, distilled them further into an unrecognizable sound, overlaid it with a simple rhythm, you would have a *powerful* techno track... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
techno and house are also faceless. d That can change though, and is changing. It in fact can become vastly face-full and yet retain its essence... add definition however, and you have something else, you now have a message... notice I am doing my damndest to not boost the toneshift theory? Which would explain why such a stripped, positionless music is so revered... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err... (take 2)
I think it's good for the artists and bad for the fans. Look at the bigger US marekts now, or the UK for comparison. Smaller markets make better crowds, make a better experience for those involved - with few exceptions like the DEMF, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. A lot of prominent DJs love to DJ in smaller cities and smaller venues for this reason. The crowds are better. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo -Original Message- From: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... (take 2) I guess I should be a little bit more specific in terms of what other cultural phenomenon I was trying to reference. I'm thinking of the U.K. Where Mega-Mega-Mega dance clubs are commonplace and DJs are more like pop stars. Would it be generally desirable or generally NOT desireable for the U.S. to have a similar situation with regard to accessability within the consumer marketplace? That would have to be the king of all cyclical 313 threads. I'm gonna be brief for once. I think *most* of us would like to see this get a little more recognition, and *most* of us understand that there would be *some* harm to the scene if Detroit techno went, and remained top 40. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo -Original Message- From: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ ___ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [313] err...
The best part is that there is a Ford Focus add on the page. For those who haven't checked it out or don't have web access, it's a pole for best techno artist in the American Music Awards, and there are three nominees: Moby - 75.98% Chemical Brothers - 8.73% Fatboy Slim - 15.27% I heard there was some question about the results in Florida though... I didn't hi-light any of the choices and I clicked submit to see if there was feedback, and it accepted my vote. Perhaps we should flood them with abstentions. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo -Original Message- From: Carissa Tintinalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? From: atomly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [313] err... Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:31:00 -0600 http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [313] err...
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:08:59PM -0500, Hugh G. Blaze wrote: When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. This is a really good question... I'm not sure how I feel about this- my gut reaction is to say that it's a good thing but I don't want to say that without really thinking about it first. I'd say the problem with the mainstream media picking up subgenres is that they burn fast and die quickly... If techno (true, underground, techno) were to get big tomorrow, a lot of people that we know would probably become superstars overnight and in a year or two it would be completely dead (a la grunge). It's basically a tradeoff- I'm sure a ton of amazing music would come out in those two years, but then none would come out after that. -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly
Re: [313] err... (take 2)
I guess I should be a little bit more specific in terms of what other cultural phenomenon I was trying to reference. I'm thinking of the U.K. Where Mega-Mega-Mega dance clubs are commonplace and DJs are more like pop stars. Would it be generally desirable or generally NOT desireable for the U.S. to have a similar situation with regard to accessability within the consumer marketplace? That would have to be the king of all cyclical 313 threads. I'm gonna be brief for once. I think *most* of us would like to see this get a little more recognition, and *most* of us understand that there would be *some* harm to the scene if Detroit techno went, and remained top 40. Tristan == PHONOPSIA[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/5102 FrogboyMCI on AOL Instant Messenger Feeling Like A Kid Again... My Eyes Are Glued to the Floor. I Hope I Mumble Goodbye As You Walk Out the Door. UhOhUhohh... UhOhUhohhh... UhOhUhohhh... The Damage is Done. - Yo La Tengo -Original Message- From: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org 313@hyperreal.org Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ ___ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ __ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
RE: [313] err...
And you expected what from Disney? -Original Message- From: atomly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:31 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [313] err... http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] err...
atomly wrote: http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html I think one big assumption that's being made throughout this discussion is that Ford decided who to nominate. That decision is made by the AMA organisation, not the sponsors. The AMA most likely decides the nominees based on sales and publicity etc. and then there's no surprise that those three names come up (it's not exactly the first time this sort of thing happens). And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). Otto
Re: [313] err...
Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: As for the music I think that darw_n is correct. Techno and House are very different from hip-hop for example, in that I really don't think it is possible for these artforms to be co-opted. Don't count on it. For the US, that may be (still) true. In Europe, especially house is completely co-opted. Absorbed, gentrified, dumbed down, regurgitated and spit back out by the mass media for easy consumption by the general public. In other words: 'bagged'. *BUT*, in the process of the bagging of house, occasionally the real thing makes it to the frontline. Wamdue Kids, Paul Johnson, Harry 'Choo Choo' Romero and several other Subliminal artists, Masters At Work, St. Germain, the list goes on. And the good thing about it is, this is happening increasingly more often as the real thing shines through the dirge of the rest. Silent voices *will* be heard. Otto
Re: [313] err...
The wise, well traveled Dutchman, Otto, speaks... =) G l y p h In a message dated 12/6/00 4:35:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think one big assumption that's being made throughout this discussion is that Ford decided who to nominate. That decision is made by the AMA organisation, not the sponsors. The AMA most likely decides the nominees based on sales and publicity etc. and then there's no surprise that those three names come up (it's not exactly the first time this sort of thing happens). And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). Otto
RE: [313] err...
*BUT*, in the process of the bagging of house, occasionally the real thing makes it to the frontline. Wamdue Kids, Paul Johnson, Harry 'Choo Choo' Romero and several other Subliminal artists, Masters At Work, St. Germain, the list goes on. And the good thing about it is, this is happening increasingly more often as the real thing shines through the dirge of the rest. 2001 will be the year of deep house and house music in holland. It seems that more and more people are getting into stuff like St. Germain (His Tourist album reached the top 20 of the album charts) and Rolando. A quote from one of holland's favorite upperground radio dj: i'm suprised about the amount of reactions on DJ Rolando's Jaguar. When MAW release a new 12 it gets loads of airplay on primetime radio. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] err...
Yep, same here in Belgium. Rolando getting tons of airplay on the national radio : Studio Brussel. Unfortunately way too late (as always), but still a kick up the *ss for a lot of people I guess. And guess what: one of the dj's that plays quite often at Studio Brussel also plays from time to time in the pub we are throwing the party with James Pennington. He asked the owner how he managed to get James and plans to contact us to get James on Stu Bru with some publicity for our small party. Sweet! Seems that quality will get a chance after all. John P.S. I don't know about Holland, but here in Belgium papers and magazines are also starting to pick up on 2 Step as being 'the next big thing'. Arrggh, I hope things don't evolve in a Londonesque way where a thing is 'cool' for two weeks (spot the exageration here) and is slashed the week after that. *BUT*, in the process of the bagging of house, occasionally the real thing makes it to the frontline. Wamdue Kids, Paul Johnson, Harry 'Choo Choo' Romero and several other Subliminal artists, Masters At Work, St. Germain, the list goes on. And the good thing about it is, this is happening increasingly more often as the real thing shines through the dirge of the rest. 2001 will be the year of deep house and house music in holland. It seems that more and more people are getting into stuff like St. Germain (His Tourist album reached the top 20 of the album charts) and Rolando. A quote from one of holland's favorite upperground radio dj: i'm suprised about the amount of reactions on DJ Rolando's Jaguar. When MAW release a new 12 it gets loads of airplay on primetime radio. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] err...
minimal techno is an approach/attempt at expression, as is mahler's 5th: clearly mahler's works are far more dense, but to suggest that they could be 'distilled' into something more universal seems to miss the point. and what is the point? I am not being retaliatory here, but I am curios. I have heard that so much, but never heard it explained. When ever I talk about art, another artists always seems to chime in, no way man, that's not the point of art!!!, well, what is this point, and who made it law? Anyways, to protect my statement, for the fun of it, I am willing to bet the mahler's very first glimpse of his 5th. was only a few notes, in his head, he heard these notes and felt the need to expand on them, I mean surely he didn't have the entire piece already there in his head!!! If we can agree on that, than we can see that 1.) all music starts from a super simple point, 3.) you can strip a song or piece down to reveal its core, this few notes in the artists head... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
RE: [313] err...
the 'point' is that mahler expresses himself one way, hawtin (for example) another. the fact that hawtin's music is generally more stripped/minimal than mahler's doesn't mean that it's emotional content/expression is more universal/pure. they are both equally universal/pure in my view (it's the self expression that is universal, not the method). i.e. suggesting that mahler can be reduced into more basic components (techno?!) is, in my view, meaningless : his work exists as it is. in reply to your second point, i think i would agree that generally a musician's/artist's work will spring from a fledgling idea and be built upon into a complete work, but this doesn't mean that this initial idea is the defining vision of the finished work, it's just a starting point. secondly i would be willing to bet that Mozart (don't know about Mahler) _did_ have entire pieces in his head before writing them down. but, there aren't a lot of mozart's around :) h -Original Message- From: darw_n [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 December 2000 16:36 To: Williams, Howard; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] err... minimal techno is an approach/attempt at expression, as is mahler's 5th: clearly mahler's works are far more dense, but to suggest that they could be 'distilled' into something more universal seems to miss the point. and what is the point? I am not being retaliatory here, but I am curios. I have heard that so much, but never heard it explained. When ever I talk about art, another artists always seems to chime in, no way man, that's not the point of art!!!, well, what is this point, and who made it law? Anyways, to protect my statement, for the fun of it, I am willing to bet the mahler's very first glimpse of his 5th. was only a few notes, in his head, he heard these notes and felt the need to expand on them, I mean surely he didn't have the entire piece already there in his head!!! If we can agree on that, than we can see that 1.) all music starts from a super simple point, 3.) you can strip a song or piece down to reveal its core, this few notes in the artists head... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
Oh god!!! I think the presenters of this award should be the four horseman of the apocalypse! Hugh G. Blaze wrote: I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] err...
consider this: If you take an elaborate Opera, you can theoretically distill it, all while keeping its general feel, down to techno. Ambient may or may not work, it depends on your approach. But you could distill the Opera down to one crucial segment (which probably was the musical seed for the composer interesting enough) consisting of a few notes, and repeat it... so it could be said that techno is the universal music in that all music can be distilled down to techno... i think what you are actually saying is that all music, techno included can be reduced to a few simple notes that hold its meaning reducing other music to a few notes, and repeating makes techno...which makes it a meta-creation from those notes, like distilling down to the essence(notes) then building back up from there. Another example, Beethoven's 9th, the Ode to Joy movement. You can easily see that there are simply a few key notes in which the entire symphony is based off of. If you took those key notes, distilled them further into an unrecognizable sound, overlaid it with a simple rhythm, you would have a *powerful* techno track... and here you are talking about adding to the distilled essence, which in turn further waters down the essence, so you could say that if you distill a techno track to its hook, or a few notes that represent that track then you are distilling it down to ITS essence... not the other way around
RE: [313] err...
And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). as long as people are attaching some kind of motive to ford, why not try and act, PURELY for the sake of argument that they are hoping to popularize techno(which would be good for their campaign), as in REAL techno. so by sponsoring this category(i wouldnt be surprised if the AMA approached ford) they are reaching the fringe audience, albeit the far fringe. the people that like these people THINK they like techno and are closer to liking that sound than say the n'sync crowd...so maybe ford is recruiting true heads from the closest market they can find that is that big so you find people that think they like techno, make em look at your car, they see the ad with real techno, like it, more people like it, techno gets more popular, then bam they can take all the credit because they were the company advertising with it and people by their car. but really its just back to the failure of labeling, what we call techno is not what others call techno maybe big-beat or electronica is too passe for them. OR maybe the whole ford focus ad campaign was made by someone who trolls these lists and wanted to see everyone get all huffy about it. thatd be awesome
RE: [313] err...
FORD COULD CARE LESS ABOUT TECHNO! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL CARS! that's the bottom line. if they thought there was a big enough market for Midget Transsexual Racecar Drivers they would exploit that. it's all about appealing to a mass of people and then moving in for the kill, it has about as much to do with techno as the AMA has to do with music :) -Original Message- From: Topping, Micah [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:57 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [313] err... And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). as long as people are attaching some kind of motive to ford, why not try and act, PURELY for the sake of argument that they are hoping to popularize techno(which would be good for their campaign), as in REAL techno. so by sponsoring this category(i wouldnt be surprised if the AMA approached ford) they are reaching the fringe audience, albeit the far fringe. the people that like these people THINK they like techno and are closer to liking that sound than say the n'sync crowd...so maybe ford is recruiting true heads from the closest market they can find that is that big so you find people that think they like techno, make em look at your car, they see the ad with real techno, like it, more people like it, techno gets more popular, then bam they can take all the credit because they were the company advertising with it and people by their car. but really its just back to the failure of labeling, what we call techno is not what others call techno maybe big-beat or electronica is too passe for them. OR maybe the whole ford focus ad campaign was made by someone who trolls these lists and wanted to see everyone get all huffy about it. thatd be awesome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] err...
Ford is just a multinational with billions dolars of proffits and if anybody on this list really think Ford is interested in techno at all or want to lift techno to a higher lever then they are extremly ignorant. Some smart guy down at Ford just noticed how populair the DEMF was, they not here to make a better world guys, they want to cash in Actually i do believe the last part of your e-mail is true... [EMAIL PROTECTED] as long as people are attaching some kind of motive to ford, why not try and act, PURELY for the sake of argument that they are hoping to popularize techno(which would be good for their campaign), as in REAL techno. so by sponsoring this category(i wouldnt be surprised if the AMA approached ford) they are reaching the fringe audience, albeit the far fringe. the people that like these people THINK they like techno and are closer to liking that sound than say the n'sync crowd...so maybe ford is recruiting true heads from the closest market they can find that is that big so you find people that think they like techno, make em look at your car, they see the ad with real techno, like it, more people like it, techno gets more popular, then bam they can take all the credit because they were the company advertising with it and people by their car. but really its just back to the failure of labeling, what we call techno is not what others call techno maybe big-beat or electronica is too passe for them. OR maybe the whole ford focus ad campaign was made by someone who trolls these lists and wanted to see everyone get all huffy about it. thatd be awesome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] err...
reducing other music to a few notes, and repeating makes techno...which makes it a meta-creation from those notes, like distilling down to the essence(notes) then building back up from there. no, you make techno by switching on your drumcomputer and sampler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] err...
I certainly have to agree with this last comment. I recently had some involvement with Ford for work, and could not for the life of me figure out HOW they got a single vehicle out the door. This, amidst the whole tire recall issue. In seeing the add on tv a few weeks ago, all I could think was that some kid at JWT (I'm assuming...) has a big old grin on his face because he was able to push his idea through the tube I'm the one who got detroit techno on tv. And trust me, this is NO easy thing. Particularly with all the typical music that gets represented with car adds. Nissan, Volvo, VW, etc I don't give Ford credit, but instead the person behind the idea at JWT (again, assuming). charles On Wed, 06 December 2000, John Shipman wrote: FORD COULD CARE LESS ABOUT TECHNO! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL CARS! that's the bottom line. if they thought there was a big enough market for Midget Transsexual Racecar Drivers they would exploit that. it's all about appealing to a mass of people and then moving in for the kill, it has about as much to do with techno as the AMA has to do with music :) -Original Message- From:Topping, Micah [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:57 AM To:313@hyperreal.org Subject:RE: [313] err... And with Ford's current ad campaign theme, it's no surprise either that they decide to sponsor such an award, even though they know it's not the real techno. In any case, it's the closest thing at the AMA they have for reaching the intended target audience. Assuming they show the ad during the awards, it will certainly make people wonder what Detroit Techno is. Then it's up to 'us' show them what it all is about (and not flame polite-but-ignorant newbies like what happened to that raver kid a few weeks ago!). as long as people are attaching some kind of motive to ford, why not try and act, PURELY for the sake of argument that they are hoping to popularize techno(which would be good for their campaign), as in REAL techno. so by sponsoring this category(i wouldnt be surprised if the AMA approached ford) they are reaching the fringe audience, albeit the far fringe. the people that like these people THINK they like techno and are closer to liking that sound than say the n'sync crowd...so maybe ford is recruiting true heads from the closest market they can find that is that big so you find people that think they like techno, make em look at your car, they see the ad with real techno, like it, more people like it, techno gets more popular, then bam they can take all the credit because they were the company advertising with it and people by their car. but really its just back to the failure of labeling, what we call techno is not what others call techno maybe big-beat or electronica is too passe for them. OR maybe the whole ford focus ad campaign was made by someone who trolls these lists and wanted to see everyone get all huffy about it. thatd be awesome - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] err...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, atomly wrote: [...] I'd say the problem with the mainstream media picking up subgenres is that they burn fast and die quickly... If techno (true, underground, techno) were to get big tomorrow, a lot of people that we know would probably become superstars overnight and in a year or two it would be completely dead (a la grunge). I don't think this would happen. The question to ask is this: what is mainstream music, what makes it mainstream? Answers typically cover a range but seem to revolve around the fact that there is massive appeal so they can sell the millions of CDs and videos. But do you think this would happen is someone who really enjoys Brittany Spears listened to a Juan Atkins track? Would NSync fans get down to the latest offerings of tech-house? They would if said music was marketed the same way as NSync and Miss. Brittany. The problem is there is little to hang a hat on with techno. No lyrics? Aww, come on. Get real! I think the same arguement can be made about any music living on the margins of society. If it doesn't have mass appeal there is little chance of it being glommed onto (yes, that's a highly used, technical marketing term) by the masses. Although, there is always the arguement of those who attended DEMF and saw people who had never heard techno go nuts. And I'll always remember a gig I played at one of the annual festivals in Milwaukee. It was an event called Maritime Days and the local college station had a tent and had bands playing during the day and at night. A friend of mine who has a Saturday night techno show on the station brought in a few friends to play records during his show at this festival. About half an hours after my friend's show started the Jerry Lee Lewis concert let out on the other side of the festival grounds. As people were filing out on their way home they were hypnotically pulled into our tent and were held rapt by the dance music playing out our sound system. I don't think I've ever seen a more diverse crowd of humans enjoying something together. My point? The mainstream media outlets who market music to the masses don't know the first thing about how they would market techno. What we know and what they miss is so simple: all that has to happen is for people to here the music with an open mind. Steven White steve at barking cat dot org aytch tee tee pea colon slash slash barking cat dot org slash
RE: [313] err...
What about letting the four DUTCHMEN of the Apocalypse present it? Now that would be fun! Oh god!!! I think the presenters of this award should be the four horseman of the apocalypse! Hugh G. Blaze wrote: I'm in rather dire need of the sage wisdom of this list and its members on this issue for a project that I'm working on. Is this good or bad for our music and culture? When I say this I mean the fact that the mainstream press, the marketing and advertising industries and America in general still remains clueless as to who the artists are that we are interested in, the music that we actually buy (as demonstrated by this poll). Is that a good thing or bad thing? Would it be better if every city in the US had a 5,000 person capacity multi-media and Derick May (or whoever) was in the top 40? Would that kill the spirit of the culture, in your opinion? Please answer - your opinions on this are invaluable to me. Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] err...
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 08:24:53PM -0800, darw_n wrote: techno is generally [...] politically positionless Since when? -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly
Re: [313] err...
From: Sam Karmel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Maybe we should let our voices be heard!!! I agree... Instead of whining and complaining about what should or shouldn't be techno and of what this _may_ do to our music, we should respectfully send a couple thousand e-mails to abc, and let them know what WE think. Does anyone disagree? Worst case, nothing happens, just llike if we sat here and argued about it the whole time Dennis _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err...
Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: As for the music I think that darw_n is correct. Techno and House are very different from hip-hop for example, in that I really don't think it is possible for these artforms to be co-opted. Otto said: Don't count on it. For the US, that may be (still) true. In Europe, especially house is completely co-opted. Absorbed, gentrified, dumbed down, regurgitated and spit back out by the mass media for easy consumption by the general public. In other words: 'bagged'. *BUT*, in the process of the bagging of house, occasionally the real thing makes it to the frontline. Wamdue Kids, Paul Johnson, Harry 'Choo Choo' Romero and several other Subliminal artists, Masters At Work, St. Germain, the list goes on. And the good thing about it is, this is happening increasingly more often as the real thing shines through the dirge of the rest. Silent voices *will* be heard. This is exactly what I was trying to get at, thank you Otto. I'm working on a project right now that draws some parallels between the UK and the US, or rather makes some comparisons between the two. What I'm trying to discern is wether this commercialization is mostly good or mostly bad. That's a gross simplification, but it basically sums it up what I'm working on. _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err...
techno is generally [...] politically positionless Since when? since I have yet to hear a real stance from techno what great movement do we represent? darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 03:25:45PM -0800, darw_n wrote: since I have yet to hear a real stance from techno UR? -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly
Re: [313] err...
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 03:25:45PM -0800, darw_n wrote: since I have yet to hear a real stance from techno UR? sure, but I can point to many many groups within the techno scene who have entirely polar opposite views, UR's is simply one position in a near infinite amount of stances, varying from one extreme to another. Because of this highly factioned system of opinions, the only just position that indeed covers the entire movement is none at all... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:00:13PM -0800, darw_n wrote: sure, but I can point to many many groups within the techno scene who have entirely polar opposite views, UR's is simply one position in a near infinite amount of stances, varying from one extreme to another. Because of this highly factioned system of opinions, the only just position that indeed covers the entire movement is none at all... Because Communists exist and Fascists exist and are diametrically opposed, politics don't exist? -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly
Re: [313] err...
Because Communists exist and Fascists exist and are diametrically opposed, politics don't exist? no, that's not what I said at all. Those two opposing political forces do NOT represent a single group. Let me try to re-explain... Techno has no single political, social, economic banner in which all stand united, none at all. The point I was making specifically was that techno is a ambiguous movement... This is very very critical BTW in the realm of social history, a social movement in which has no manifesto, or even formal regulation. This is a first... That was my point... a movement with no defined cause... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
Atomly quipped: Because Communists exist and Fascists exist and are diametrically opposed, politics don't exist? Dawrw_n replied: no, that's not what I said at all. Those two opposing political forces do NOT represent a single group. Let me try to re-explain... Techno has no single political, social, economic banner in which all stand united, none at all. What artistic, social or political movement ever has? None. _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err...
Techno has no single political, social, economic banner in which all stand united, none at all. What artistic, social or political movement ever has? None. fine rebuttal, but there *was* a general underlying common drive. Every youth music movement has had a general drive, be it war or whatever. Art, the surrealists had an actual drafted manifesto, Bauhaus, Realists, ect. They all had a unifying definition and a common goal. But with techno, has no general and definable base... I am seeing that I am choosing the wrong words, damn. OK, lets try this. The Punk movement in the UK had specific reasons and broad unified complaints, despite the internal punk factions. There main complaint was the Queen and the dole (I'm from America, so forgive me if I am general). The 60's movement, obviously, had both war and civil rights, the swing era had an oppressive morality system in which it was fighting, I could go on and on. So invite someone to say, the techno movement has ___. fill in the blank. BTW, I often sound heated in typing, I am not, I enjoy this debate, in fact I just submitted a paper to the sociology dept. today for review (albeit, dealing more with the rave scene) darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
[313] distilled techno (was Re: [313] err...)
I think you're missing the point, to pun badly. Listen to a remix ep or album some time and you'll see what I mean. The point of the music is not neccessarily to distill that key idea fundamental to it. The point is the artistic expression OF that point. I can think of numerous remix projects (Jaguar, for example) and two recent compilations, one where each artist had to express the idea of love and the other osmosis. Now Jaguar can be distilled down to a few key components, but that hardly makes the cheap knockoff the same as the original the same as the jeff mills remix. There might be something to be said for finding a good cornerstone, but to say that the cornerstone IS the building I think circumvents (is that the right word) a vital aspect of artistic expression. That interpretation of the idea by the artist through the medium is important. Monet painted a picture of a pond with paint. I think that distilling that to either just paint or just a pond misses what makes that artwork special. Just a thought. From: darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Williams, Howard [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] err... Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:35:36 -0800 minimal techno is an approach/attempt at expression, as is mahler's 5th: clearly mahler's works are far more dense, but to suggest that they could be 'distilled' into something more universal seems to miss the point. and what is the point? I am not being retaliatory here, but I am curios. I have heard that so much, but never heard it explained. When ever I talk about art, another artists always seems to chime in, no way man, that's not the point of art!!!, well, what is this point, and who made it law? Anyways, to protect my statement, for the fun of it, I am willing to bet the mahler's very first glimpse of his 5th. was only a few notes, in his head, he heard these notes and felt the need to expand on them, I mean surely he didn't have the entire piece already there in his head!!! If we can agree on that, than we can see that 1.) all music starts from a super simple point, 3.) you can strip a song or piece down to reveal its core, this few notes in the artists head... darw_n _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big
- Original Message - From: darw_n [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Hugh G. Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [313] err... Techno has no single political, social, economic banner in which all stand united, none at all. What artistic, social or political movement ever has? None. fine rebuttal, but there *was* a general underlying common drive. Every youth music movement has had a general drive, be it war or whatever. Art, the surrealists had an actual drafted manifesto, Bauhaus, Realists, ect. They all had a unifying definition and a common goal. But with techno, has no general and definable base... --- i believe the common goal of techno is to create music that hasn't been heard before. i've heard plenty of artists say the same thing most notably juan atkins and jeff mills. is this not enough of a unifying definition and a common goal for ya? : ) kao jyan
Re: [313] distilled techno (was Re: [313] err...)
Monet painted a picture of a pond with paint. I think that distilling that to either just paint or just a pond misses what makes that artwork special. Indeed, and I am not suggesting that you can distill something to the point before it was even created. If you could, than you could distill everything to the parts of an atom, and perhaps even further - a ridiculous proposition indeed!! No, the cornerstone is the key point, the absolute minimal representation of the creating artists ideas... I say that this is what makes techno great, it takes the key points to the bare necessity, and then lets the audience expand on it as they see fit, an interactive art... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err... darw_n's brain is too big
i believe the common goal of techno is to create music that hasn't been heard before. i've heard plenty of artists say the same thing most notably juan atkins and jeff mills. is this not enough of a unifying definition and a common goal for ya? : ) No, I am not saticfied with that, it would imply that we are pretty boring and lazy. No, there is causation for everything, things just don't happen for the hell of it. There is something to keep in mind, there is a global scene in which embodies techno, the rave scene. There is definate reason behind that scene, it is not existing for the hell of it, there is very real sociological catelysts behind it, and again, there is real reason for the rave scene clentching onto techno like it has... Another thing, artists often disregard more scientific explainations in that science isn't all that artsy, and inderstandably so. But I propose that this is why Jeff Mills and others have complete skirted more scientific explainations, its not art to do so... And so be it, and visa versa, it is my desire to interpret what is happening. BTW, we have gone nearly 15 years with barely any analysis... and analysis is *definately* needed when a movement overtakes the entire globe, almost all authority figures are scared, so on and so forth... you cant just brush it off as a social fluke... darw_n create, demonstrate, toneshift... http://www.mp3.com/stations/clevelandunderground http://www.mp3.com/darw_n http://www.sphereproductions.com/topic/Darwin.html http://www.mannequinodd.com
Re: [313] err...
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:51:21PM -0800, darw_n wrote: Techno has no single political, social, economic banner in which all stand united, none at all. The point I was making specifically was that techno is a ambiguous movement... This is very very critical BTW in the realm of social history, a social movement in which has no manifesto, or even formal regulation. This is a first... What about rock then? Do Fugazi, The Beatles and Manowar share an agenda? -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly
Re: [313] err...
Beat me to it Atomly :) Is it just me, or is this every shade of wrong? From: atomly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [313] err... Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:31:00 -0600 http://abc.go.com/primetime/ama/techno_home.html -- :: atomly :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.atomly.com | http://www.mp3.com/atomly - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
