Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[VJ Rada]

I rescind the above proposal.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>
>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>> Title: Two Words
>> AI: 1.7
>> Text: In rule 2478, Vigilante Justice, add the word "either" after the
>> words "shall conclude the investigation by" but before the colon.
>> Also, before the words "if e believes that no rules violation occurred
>> or that it would", add the word "or"
>> --
>>>
>>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>
> Proposal 7886 already contains a fix.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Kerim Aydin]

Which one was that?  The only unresolved ones are on different subjects 
I think.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
> >>
> >> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
> >>
> >> -o
> >
> > There's a 24 hour time limit.
> >
> > -Aris
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[VJ Rada]

Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>>
>>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>>
>> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
>>
>> -o
>
> There's a 24 hour time limit.
>
> -Aris



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Aris Merchant]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>
>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>
> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
>
> -o

There's a 24 hour time limit.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Cuddle Beam]

>I’m not, at least for the present. Agora cannot receive cards, and in any
case, carding Agora has no ludic effect, platonic OR pragmatic.

Agora would need to be a person too. (because "The person
 to whom the Card
 is being issued (the bad sport),
and" in R2426)

I don't think that with our current definition of Person and Agora, we'd
ever be able to have Agora be a Person, because Agora, as the gestalt of
our game actions, depends on our own "independent thoughts" to exist,
because it's those which create game actions and everything Agora "is"
(according to the Ruleset definition of itself).

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:52 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
> > Also, I am curious about the implications of Agora doing
> > something ILLEGAL.
>
> I’m not, at least for the present. Agora cannot receive cards, and in any
> case, carding Agora has no ludic effect, platonic OR pragmatic.
>
> On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>
> >To "call in" a pledge" is to destroy it. A player can call in
> >any pledge with Agoran Consent, if e announces a reason the
> >Terms of the pledge should be considered broken. Support for an
> >intent to call in a pledge is INEFFECTIVE unless the supporting
> >player explicitly confirms the reasons that the pledge should
> >be considered broken.
> >
> >It is ILLEGAL to own a pledge when it is called in.
>
> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
> > Should be uppercase CAN in "A player can call in" I think. Also should
> > there be MAYs? I'm still confused about that.
>
> It should, for consistency if for no other reason. It’s also possible that
> that “can” is meaningfully different from “CAN” in this context. Thanks.
>
> I believe that MAYs are not required here, as the actions defined here are
> not otherwise made illegal in any way. They’re Regulated, which means it is
> only possible to do them as described, but they’re not obviously in
> contravention of a SHALL NOT or similar anywhere. MAY appears to be useful
> for carving out exceptions to blanket illegality, not for ensuring that an
> action that’s otherwise not defined as being either illegal or as legal
> will be legal. CANs are sufficient for that, in most cases, by my read of
> Mother, May I? and related precedent.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Also, I am curious about the implications of Agora doing
> something ILLEGAL.

I’m not, at least for the present. Agora cannot receive cards, and in any case, 
carding Agora has no ludic effect, platonic OR pragmatic.

On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:

>To "call in" a pledge" is to destroy it. A player can call in
>any pledge with Agoran Consent, if e announces a reason the
>Terms of the pledge should be considered broken. Support for an
>intent to call in a pledge is INEFFECTIVE unless the supporting
>player explicitly confirms the reasons that the pledge should
>be considered broken.
> 
>It is ILLEGAL to own a pledge when it is called in.

On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Should be uppercase CAN in "A player can call in" I think. Also should
> there be MAYs? I'm still confused about that.

It should, for consistency if for no other reason. It’s also possible that that 
“can” is meaningfully different from “CAN” in this context. Thanks.

I believe that MAYs are not required here, as the actions defined here are not 
otherwise made illegal in any way. They’re Regulated, which means it is only 
possible to do them as described, but they’re not obviously in contravention of 
a SHALL NOT or similar anywhere. MAY appears to be useful for carving out 
exceptions to blanket illegality, not for ensuring that an action that’s 
otherwise not defined as being either illegal or as legal will be legal. CANs 
are sufficient for that, in most cases, by my read of Mother, May I? and 
related precedent.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Nic Evans]

On 09/22/17 20:46, Nic Evans wrote:
>
> On 09/22/17 19:46, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>
>> Create a pledge owned by nichdel, whose terms are
>>
>> {
>> I pledge to not acknowledge any messages Cuddle Beam sends to
>> a-d, or to respond in a-d to anything CB does.
>> }
> I already broke this pledge, which I believe makes it impossible for me
> to be punished for it again. Thus this is equivalent to remaking the
> pledge for me.

I forgot to cut out everything above this to make it more visible, so
here it is again.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 21:13 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> Rule 2166:
> 
> > A fixed asset is one defined as such by its backing document, and
> > CANNOT be transferred; any other asset is liquid.
> 
> Proposal:
> 
> > Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset.
> 
> I’m assuming that framework for fixed assets actually functions, of
> course.

Aha. Somehow I was fixated on the "indestructible" and missed the
"fixed".

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:46 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> I noticed a significant mechanical defect and a style defect after I
>> pended it, so I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and
>> submit the following proposal in its place. This time, for sure!
> 
> What prevents pledge owners from transferring them to other players?
> Rule 2166 generally allows players to transfer assets away, and I
> didn't notice anything here that stops that (stating that doing so is
> secured simply prevents low-powered rules permitting the transfer, and
> rule 2166 is easily powerful enough).

Rule 2166:

> A fixed asset is one defined as such by its backing document, and CANNOT be 
> transferred; any other asset is liquid.

Proposal:

> Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset.

I’m assuming that framework for fixed assets actually functions, of course.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Aris Merchant]

They're defined as a "fixed" asset, which means they can't be transferred.

-Aris

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-09-22 at 20:46 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> I noticed a significant mechanical defect and a style defect after I
>> pended it, so I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and
>> submit the following proposal in its place. This time, for sure!
>
> What prevents pledge owners from transferring them to other players?
> Rule 2166 generally allows players to transfer assets away, and I
> didn't notice anything here that stops that (stating that doing so is
> secured simply prevents low-powered rules permitting the transfer, and
> rule 2166 is easily powerful enough).
>
> --
> ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:


Do you want this distributed with this weeks distributions?


That's a still buggy version, so probably not.

Greetings,
Ørjan.


-Aris

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

Ugh, I missed a pledge, and I’m not sure that retroactive creation would work. 
I withdraw the proposal “Make Your Home Shine” and submit the following 
proposal in its place:

Title: Make Your Home Shine
Author: o
Co-authors: CuddleBeam, Ørjan
AI: 1.7

{{{
Amend rule 2450 ("Pledges") to read, in full:

{
Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset. Ownership of pledges
is restricted to persons. The Referee is the recordkeepor of
pledges. Creating, destroying, modifying, and transferring
pledges are secured.

To "pledge" something is to create a pledge with those terms. A
person CAN pledge by announcement.

To "retract" (syn "withdraw") a pledge is to destroy it. A
person CAN retract a pledge they own without objection.

To "call in" a pledge" is to destroy it. A player can call in
any pledge with Agoran Consent, if e announces a reason the
Terms of the pledge should be considered broken. Support for an
intent to call in a pledge is INEFFECTIVE unless the supporting
player explicitly confirms the reasons that the pledge should
be considered broken.

It is ILLEGAL to own a pledge when it is called in.
}

Destroy every pledge.

Create a pledge owned by Quazie, whose terms are

{
I pledge to give 1 Shiny to the first person who can,
correctly, with e-mail citations, explain what I did wrong on
Jan 20th 2009 that has since led to me being a fugitive. For
the explanation to be valid for this pledge, it should be fully
self contained, I should not have to go look up past rules in
order to understand the explanation (So please, include all
source info in the explanation).
}

Create a pledge owned by G., whose terms are

{
 This pledge is known as The Prosecutor's Office

 1.  I CAN revoke or alter this pledge by giving 4 Days Notice.

 2.  If a CFJ is submitted to The Prosecutor's Office (private or
 public to me, but not in Discussion), I shall follow the
 following formal process to resolve the matter of
 controversy:

 a.  I shall enter it into the bottom of the Judicial Queue.

 b.  At most once per day, and and most 5 times per week, I'll
 initiate an Agoran Call for Judgement on the CFJ on the
 top of the Judicial Queue (also barring judges as
 requested by the submitter).

 c.  By request, the submitter may remain anonymous.

 d.  Absolutely free of charge, as able, I'll research and
 add gratuitous arguments in favor of the submitter's
 position, and I'll not argue against the submitter's
 position except in private with the submitter.

-G.
}

Create a pledge owned by V.J Rada, whose terms are

{
However I now pledge to include more recapping of agoran events
in future newspapers.
}

Create a pledge owned by o, whose terms are

{
I pledge that, for the next month, if I have not yet paid a
total of 30 shinies under this pledge, and a player pledges to
pay me 6 Shinies within a month, I will pay em 5 Shinies in a
timely fashion.
}

Ratify the following statement:

{
The only pledge owned by o was created on Aug 23, 2017.
}

Create a pledge owned by Gaelan, whose terms are

{
I pledge to, for at least the next month, vote AGAINST any
proposal that amends rules by providing new text in full unless
the text of the rule is nearly entirely changed.
}

Ratify the following statement:

{
The only pledge owned by Gaelan was created on Sep 14, 2017.
}
}}}

There are other pledges in play, but in my view they are either already
discharged, or irrelevant, and it would not be in the game's interest
to carry them forwards.

-o

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 16, 2017, at 1:54 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> 
>> Amend rule 2450 ("Pledges") to read, in full:
>> 
>>   {
>>   Pledges are an indestructible fixed asset. Ownership of pledges
>>   is restricted to persons. The Referee is the recordkeepor of
>>   pledges. Creating, destroying, modifying, and transferring
>>   pledges are secured.
> 
>> Destroy every pledge.
> 
> I believe a proposal cannot destroy an indestructible asset.

Ah, crud, you’re right. Rule 2166:

> An indestructible asset is one defined as such by it backing document, and 
> CANNOT be destroyed except by a rule specifically addressing the destruction 
> of indestructible assets or that asset in particular.

Moving that clause to that position was meant to end-run the question of 
whether existing pledges convert. However, the way I judged CFJ 3559 probably 
implies that I can insert a clause to the effect of “No clause of this proposal 
CAN create pledges implicitly” and have that work the way I want, instead.

I could also create a transient rule at the start of the proposal, and repeal 
it at the end, but that feels like an extreme solution.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 15, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> Here's two more: 
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-May/034600.html
> (the one quoted directly in the link, and the one quoted by that message)
> 
> 天火狐

Thanks.

A brief aside about motivation. I put this proposal forwards to solve four core 
problems with the current iteration of the Pledge system:

1. It’s very easy for pledges to fall through the cracks. Since the Referee is 
charged with identifying rule-breaking and can be penalized for failure to do 
so, this becomes impractical quite quickly. Making them a reported-on thing 
means that there’s a regularly-published document that lists all pledges, and 
which can drive people to report forgotten pledges while they’re still relevant.

2. Pledges exist indefinitely. Making them Assets borrows the lifecycle from 
that framework, and gives a clear point where a pledge no longer needs to be 
tracked for gameplay purposes. Nothing stops players from informally tracking 
pledges after they’ve been called in once, or re-pledging to a thing after 
having a pledge called in on them, but the game would no longer require anyone 
to keep track of a pledge forever.

3. Looking at the history of rules governing pledges, it seems likely that no 
wording in the rules will be sufficient to cover every way a pledge can be 
broken. Rather than try to patch on patches, I’m attempting to make pledge 
adherence and penalization a bit more democratic and deliberative. The Terms of 
a pledge have no formal ludic meaning at all, under this proposal, but make a 
fairly natural guide for when it’s appropriate to call in a pledge, or to 
object to an attempt to do so.

4. Some promises are made in error. Holding players to mistaken pledges forever 
is unfair. The proposal creates a way for players to formally back out of 
pledges, and a way to stop players from doing so if they abuse that privilege.

I seriously considered repealing pledges entirely, or reverting to the “A 
player SHALL NOT break a publicly-made pledge” wording, but the “you can 
destroy someone else’s stamps” scam amused me enough to want to build something 
useful on the same principle.

-o


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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Josh T]

Here's two more:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-May/034600.html
(the one quoted directly in the link, and the one quoted by that message)

天火狐

On 14 September 2017 at 22:14, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 14, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Read line 1 of the pledge.  If part of the pledge is saying I CAN revoke
> it (including a method),
> > I can do so as part of keeping the pledge, I assume.
>
> It’s not at all clear how that works, or even if it works, but the intent
> is clear and I think it would be unfair not to allow you to stop upholding
> a promise in _precisely the way you initially promised to do so_. I’m
> content to leave this pledge out of the next version of the proposal, and
> to wait until you resolve this notice before revising the proposal.
>
> V.J Rada, thanks for catching two pledges I missed!
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 14, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Read line 1 of the pledge.  If part of the pledge is saying I CAN revoke it 
> (including a method),
> I can do so as part of keeping the pledge, I assume.

It’s not at all clear how that works, or even if it works, but the intent is 
clear and I think it would be unfair not to allow you to stop upholding a 
promise in _precisely the way you initially promised to do so_. I’m content to 
leave this pledge out of the next version of the proposal, and to wait until 
you resolve this notice before revising the proposal.

V.J Rada, thanks for catching two pledges I missed!

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Solvency

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 14, 2017, at 6:17 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> As promised.
>> 
>> -o
>> 
>>> On Sep 13, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't really like changing the supply level.
>> 
>> I don’t really like _ad-hoc_ changes to the supply level, particularly as a 
>> first-line tool. Our primary problem right now is that we haven’t got safety 
>> nets in place to make players comfortable spending Shinies, so players 
>> without a fixed source of income are holding their coins in case they need 
>> them later and relying entirely on AP, instead.
>> 
>> However, structured and principled changes to the supply level are probably 
>> fine. I think we should probably have some wiggle room to deal with
>> 
>> * long-term insolvency, which this proposal addresses,
>> * changes in the player population, both explicit (through registration) and 
>> implicit (through inactivity)
>> * scams
>> 
>>> I submit the following proposal.
>>> 
>>> title: Solvency
>>> ai: 2
>>> author: nichdel
>>> co-authors:
>>> 
>>> Amend R2487 "Shiny Supply Level" to read in full:
>>> 
>>>   The Supply Level is a singleton switch with possible values integers
>>>   and a default value of 1000.
>>> 
>>>   When a Shiny Releveling event occurs, Agora's Balance is increased or
>>>   decreased such that all Balances add up to the Supply Level.
>> 
>> As mentioned, balances aren’t adjustable like this any more. Here’s my 
>> proposed alternative. The wording could probably use work; the idea is that 
>> either we mint shinies, or we destroy Agora’s shinies, and if Agora doesn’t 
>> own enough shinies, we get as close as we can to the Supply Level. (We can 
>> always call another SRE once Agora owns more shinies.)
>> 
> 
> Pardon? Rule 2166: {
> 
> The "x balance of an entity", where x is a currency, is the number of x that
>  entity possesses. If a rule, proposal, or other competent
> authority attempts
>  to increase or decrease the balance of an entity without
> specifying a source
>  or destination, then the currency is created or destroyed.
> }

Oops! Nice catch, I had completely missed that. That applies to G.’s proposal 
in flight, as well. I’ll take a closer look.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Come What May

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


Sorry I was wondering whether to use it for elections or just for
reports. I pledge to do what Orjan said.


Thank you.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Come What May

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I concur.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 13, 2017, at 5:06 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> 
 I initiate an election for the office of Agronomist, as no election for 
 this office has happened in the last 90 days (r. 2145). I stand for 
 >>election for this office, but if a player who has no offices would like 
 the job, I would prefer that Agorans vote for them before me.
>> 
>> I initiate the Agoran decision for the determination of Agronomist.
>> The quorum is 2.0 and the vote collector is the ADoP. I vote by
>> endorsing o.
> 
> I'd like to ask you to _please_ use the customary [ADoP] etc. tag for (at 
> least bigger) officer actions.  It's how I search for them in my mailbox...
> 
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Guaranteed Stamp Income

[Cuddle Beam]

Proto: Rename Agora to Agor

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Kerim Aydin 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> > On 09/13/17 15:21, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> > >>>player CAN, by announcement, create a Stamp with Agora as the
> Creater
> > > "Creator" is actually a correct word in this case!
> >
> > I'm aware, and avoided it so it didn't look like an office title.
>
> We've used "Mintor" (or "Minter") as "creater of an asset/currency"
> before, if
> it stands out better.
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Guaranteed Stamp Income

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> On 09/13/17 15:21, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> >>>player CAN, by announcement, create a Stamp with Agora as the Creater
> > "Creator" is actually a correct word in this case!
> 
> I'm aware, and avoided it so it didn't look like an office title.

We've used "Mintor" (or "Minter") as "creater of an asset/currency" before, if
it stands out better.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Guaranteed Stamp Income

[Nic Evans]

On 09/13/17 15:21, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
>>>player CAN, by announcement, create a Stamp with Agora as the Creater
> "Creator" is actually a correct word in this case!

I'm aware, and avoided it so it didn't look like an office title.

>
> I'd put "2 stamps" rather than 1 as the welcome package.  = 4 proposals, 1
> per week when you first join.  Also gives you options (cash one, hold one).

Stamps are 4x the value of the cost to pend. 1/20th vs 1/5th.

>
> My overall question is whether this interfaces well with the Bond proposal -
> should those concepts be coordinated?  Otherwise looks like a good mechanism.
>
>
>

I was thinking of this as a somewhat lighter version of Bonds, including
the possibility of later adding other ways to get Agora Stamps. But I
haven't scrutinized that proposal too much yet.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Basic Guaranteed Income

[Nic Evans]

On 09/13/17 14:01, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> So some thoughts then:
>
> - Do away with AP, but just allow 1 free CFJ/week for everyone?
>
> - I think "new" players should get an extra bonus so they can jump in, with 
> the 
> understanding that "once that first stake is gone, you'll be operating on a 
> much
> lower level."  My thought is to give them each 2 stamps, that way they can
> immediately try to game the stamp (hold onto it if it's too low).

I was thinking that a simple solution to the want for bonds/speculation
might be to create Agora Stamps, which don't count for wins but can be
created more freely. If we did that, I'd support giving new players one
or two. I don't want to too easily flood the market with win tokens though.

>
> - I'd be tempted to just keep quiet and use this, but let's try to get it 
> right
> first time:  how do you defend against the following avoidance scheme:  "If 
> people
> transfer shinies and stamps to me before the beginning of the month for the 
> purpose
> of claiming basic income, I pledge/(Agency) to return them after the income is
> claimed".  Seems like a very natural thing that people would set up.

In either the case of agencies or pledges you could potentially go back
on your word, and in many cases that'd be more fruitful than the
punishments a pledge would give. I'd also assume most people would want
a cut of the claimed money, meaning there's competition, meaning the
money is getting moved around the market, which is generally good. If
two people offer equally good deals, people will gravitate towards the
most trustworthy or the least threatening as well.

>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
>> On 09/13/17 13:38, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>> Mechanism aside (which looks generally fine), how many (proposals+CFJs) do 
>>> you
>>> think a "casual" (non-office holding) player should be permitted to perform
>>> regularly?  This is 2 total per month if the Floating Value is constant, 
>>> plus
>>> a person is screwed if the beginning of the month falls on a low shiny 
>>> period
>>> like last week.
>>>
>>> I think this can work with small adjustments, I'm just trying to get a 
>>> handle
>>> for what baseline activity level people feel is appropriate, and work 
>>> backwards
>>> to ensure basic income, on average, would allow for that.  I think 2 per 
>>> month
>>> is low, personally (though wouldn't be low if it were proposals only).
>>>
>>> For CFJs in particular, I'd really hate to think of someone joining, 
>>> getting 2
>>> shinies (last week's level), then this week and thereafter being unable to 
>>> call any
>>> CFJs (e.g. about eir playerhood or other problems) for a full month 
>>> following.  
>>> That would be enough for me personally to judge that the player is 
>>> unreasonably
>>> blocked from initiating a CFJ (for R217 purposes).
>> When it comes to CFJs I expect players to cover each other pretty well.
>> But the mechanics shouldn't rely entirely on good will, you're right.
>>
>> I'm hesitant to set it higher right now for a few reasons. One is that I
>> think there's a couple scammy interactions with other subsystems here,
>> and I'm hesitant to make them payoff more. Another is that the economy
>> is currently very unstable, and probably not representative of what
>> it'll be when/if certain changes pass. I also want to add more easily
>> obtained rewards that new players could approach. Finally, Solvency
>> should fix the specific case of hitting rock-bottom with FV, which
>> should make things a bit smoother overall.
>>
>>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
 Here's my take on a basic income. Note that it's a form of guaranteed,
 rather than universal, income in the sense that it only brings you up
 to an appropriate level.

 I submit the following proposal:

 title: Basic Income
 ai: 2
 author: nichdel
 co-authors:

 Repeal R2500 "Action Points"

 Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read in full:

    Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
    proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
    "not pending" (default).

    Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
    announcement by spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.

 Amend R991 "Calls for Judgement" by removing point "a)" in the first
 list and changing points "b)" and "c)" to "a)" and "b)" respectively.

 Amend R2497 "Floating Value" by adding to the end of the list of
 Floating Derived Values:

    * Income Floor: 1/10th the Floating Value, rounded up.

 Amend R2499 "Welcome Packages" to read in full:

    Within an Agoran Week after a person registers, any player CAN and
    MAY cause Agora to pay the new player the Income Floor in shinies by
    announcement.

 Create a new Power 1 rule titled "Basic Income" with the following text:

    Within 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Basic Guaranteed Income

[Kerim Aydin]

So some thoughts then:

- Do away with AP, but just allow 1 free CFJ/week for everyone?

- I think "new" players should get an extra bonus so they can jump in, with the 
understanding that "once that first stake is gone, you'll be operating on a much
lower level."  My thought is to give them each 2 stamps, that way they can
immediately try to game the stamp (hold onto it if it's too low).

- I'd be tempted to just keep quiet and use this, but let's try to get it right
first time:  how do you defend against the following avoidance scheme:  "If 
people
transfer shinies and stamps to me before the beginning of the month for the 
purpose
of claiming basic income, I pledge/(Agency) to return them after the income is
claimed".  Seems like a very natural thing that people would set up.

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> On 09/13/17 13:38, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >
> > Mechanism aside (which looks generally fine), how many (proposals+CFJs) do 
> > you
> > think a "casual" (non-office holding) player should be permitted to perform
> > regularly?  This is 2 total per month if the Floating Value is constant, 
> > plus
> > a person is screwed if the beginning of the month falls on a low shiny 
> > period
> > like last week.
> >
> > I think this can work with small adjustments, I'm just trying to get a 
> > handle
> > for what baseline activity level people feel is appropriate, and work 
> > backwards
> > to ensure basic income, on average, would allow for that.  I think 2 per 
> > month
> > is low, personally (though wouldn't be low if it were proposals only).
> >
> > For CFJs in particular, I'd really hate to think of someone joining, 
> > getting 2
> > shinies (last week's level), then this week and thereafter being unable to 
> > call any
> > CFJs (e.g. about eir playerhood or other problems) for a full month 
> > following.  
> > That would be enough for me personally to judge that the player is 
> > unreasonably
> > blocked from initiating a CFJ (for R217 purposes).
> 
> When it comes to CFJs I expect players to cover each other pretty well.
> But the mechanics shouldn't rely entirely on good will, you're right.
> 
> I'm hesitant to set it higher right now for a few reasons. One is that I
> think there's a couple scammy interactions with other subsystems here,
> and I'm hesitant to make them payoff more. Another is that the economy
> is currently very unstable, and probably not representative of what
> it'll be when/if certain changes pass. I also want to add more easily
> obtained rewards that new players could approach. Finally, Solvency
> should fix the specific case of hitting rock-bottom with FV, which
> should make things a bit smoother overall.
> 
> >
> > On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> >> Here's my take on a basic income. Note that it's a form of guaranteed,
> >> rather than universal, income in the sense that it only brings you up
> >> to an appropriate level.
> >>
> >> I submit the following proposal:
> >>
> >> title: Basic Income
> >> ai: 2
> >> author: nichdel
> >> co-authors:
> >>
> >> Repeal R2500 "Action Points"
> >>
> >> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read in full:
> >>
> >>    Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
> >>    proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
> >>    "not pending" (default).
> >>
> >>    Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
> >>    announcement by spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.
> >>
> >> Amend R991 "Calls for Judgement" by removing point "a)" in the first
> >> list and changing points "b)" and "c)" to "a)" and "b)" respectively.
> >>
> >> Amend R2497 "Floating Value" by adding to the end of the list of
> >> Floating Derived Values:
> >>
> >>    * Income Floor: 1/10th the Floating Value, rounded up.
> >>
> >> Amend R2499 "Welcome Packages" to read in full:
> >>
> >>    Within an Agoran Week after a person registers, any player CAN and
> >>    MAY cause Agora to pay the new player the Income Floor in shinies by
> >>    announcement.
> >>
> >> Create a new Power 1 rule titled "Basic Income" with the following text:
> >>
> >>    Within an Agoran Week after the first Secretary Weekly Report is
> >>    published in an Agoran Month, any player CAN and MAY cause Agora,
> >>    by announcement to pay em the Income Floor minus eir Balance at time
> >>    of the Weekly Report's publication if e has less than the Income
> >>    Floor in shinies and has 0 stamps.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Basic Guaranteed Income

[Nic Evans]

On 09/13/17 13:38, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> Mechanism aside (which looks generally fine), how many (proposals+CFJs) do you
> think a "casual" (non-office holding) player should be permitted to perform
> regularly?  This is 2 total per month if the Floating Value is constant, plus
> a person is screwed if the beginning of the month falls on a low shiny period
> like last week.
>
> I think this can work with small adjustments, I'm just trying to get a handle
> for what baseline activity level people feel is appropriate, and work 
> backwards
> to ensure basic income, on average, would allow for that.  I think 2 per month
> is low, personally (though wouldn't be low if it were proposals only).
>
> For CFJs in particular, I'd really hate to think of someone joining, getting 2
> shinies (last week's level), then this week and thereafter being unable to 
> call any
> CFJs (e.g. about eir playerhood or other problems) for a full month 
> following.  
> That would be enough for me personally to judge that the player is 
> unreasonably
> blocked from initiating a CFJ (for R217 purposes).

When it comes to CFJs I expect players to cover each other pretty well.
But the mechanics shouldn't rely entirely on good will, you're right.

I'm hesitant to set it higher right now for a few reasons. One is that I
think there's a couple scammy interactions with other subsystems here,
and I'm hesitant to make them payoff more. Another is that the economy
is currently very unstable, and probably not representative of what
it'll be when/if certain changes pass. I also want to add more easily
obtained rewards that new players could approach. Finally, Solvency
should fix the specific case of hitting rock-bottom with FV, which
should make things a bit smoother overall.

>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
>> Here's my take on a basic income. Note that it's a form of guaranteed,
>> rather than universal, income in the sense that it only brings you up
>> to an appropriate level.
>>
>> I submit the following proposal:
>>
>> title: Basic Income
>> ai: 2
>> author: nichdel
>> co-authors:
>>
>> Repeal R2500 "Action Points"
>>
>> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read in full:
>>
>>    Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>>    proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
>>    "not pending" (default).
>>
>>    Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
>>    announcement by spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.
>>
>> Amend R991 "Calls for Judgement" by removing point "a)" in the first
>> list and changing points "b)" and "c)" to "a)" and "b)" respectively.
>>
>> Amend R2497 "Floating Value" by adding to the end of the list of
>> Floating Derived Values:
>>
>>    * Income Floor: 1/10th the Floating Value, rounded up.
>>
>> Amend R2499 "Welcome Packages" to read in full:
>>
>>    Within an Agoran Week after a person registers, any player CAN and
>>    MAY cause Agora to pay the new player the Income Floor in shinies by
>>    announcement.
>>
>> Create a new Power 1 rule titled "Basic Income" with the following text:
>>
>>    Within an Agoran Week after the first Secretary Weekly Report is
>>    published in an Agoran Month, any player CAN and MAY cause Agora,
>>    by announcement to pay em the Income Floor minus eir Balance at time
>>    of the Weekly Report's publication if e has less than the Income
>>    Floor in shinies and has 0 stamps.
>>
>>
>>




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Basic Guaranteed Income

[Gaelan Steele]

If only there was a currently pended proposal disincentivising stockpiling 
shinies. 

Gaelan
> On Sep 13, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> I enjoy the basic idea but Im very much against removing Action Points 
> because of how it guarantees gameplay - you've got two CFJs/Proposals per 
> week, and if you dont spend those during the week, you lose them forever, so 
> it's better to use them. That results in people being inclined to use them 
> each week, resulting in more activity which is good - although capped because 
> AP is limited, which is also good.
> 
> A basic shiny income is nice but I fear it will incentive just stockpiling 
> shinies for contingency instead of being used as liberally as we use AP 
> (which I believe is a healthy thing to keep things moving). 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>> Here's my take on a basic income. Note that it's a form of guaranteed,
>> rather than universal, income in the sense that it only brings you up
>> to an appropriate level.
>> 
>> I submit the following proposal:
>> 
>> title: Basic Income
>> ai: 2
>> author: nichdel
>> co-authors:
>> 
>> Repeal R2500 "Action Points"
>> 
>> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read in full:
>> 
>>Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>>proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
>>"not pending" (default).
>> 
>>Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
>>announcement by spending the current Pend Cost in shinies.
>> 
>> Amend R991 "Calls for Judgement" by removing point "a)" in the first
>> list and changing points "b)" and "c)" to "a)" and "b)" respectively.
>> 
>> Amend R2497 "Floating Value" by adding to the end of the list of
>> Floating Derived Values:
>> 
>>* Income Floor: 1/10th the Floating Value, rounded up.
>> 
>> Amend R2499 "Welcome Packages" to read in full:
>> 
>>Within an Agoran Week after a person registers, any player CAN and
>>MAY cause Agora to pay the new player the Income Floor in shinies by
>>announcement.
>> 
>> Create a new Power 1 rule titled "Basic Income" with the following text:
>> 
>>Within an Agoran Week after the first Secretary Weekly Report is
>>published in an Agoran Month, any player CAN and MAY cause Agora,
>>by announcement to pay em the Income Floor minus eir Balance at time
>>of the Weekly Report's publication if e has less than the Income
>>Floor in shinies and has 0 stamps.
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

No I mean just using it to raise cash.  More interesting than just collecting
a minimum wage, requires some effort at least.  That's why I suggested making
a higher-creation-rate version that couldn't be collected for a Win.  (I mean
a minimum wage is the ultimate "just sitting there").

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> Routinely buying Stamps low and selling high to eventually buy your win 
> doesn't 
> feel very interesting to me (but I'm doing it myself because it's just the 
> best 
> thing to do rn). It's just sitting and getting
> your loyalty card stamped and then getting rewarded for it.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
>   On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>   > This is the core of G.’s protest: there’s nothing to drive 
> transaction volume,
>   > so prices sink inexorably towards the lowest value they _can_ reach.
> 
>   Seeing the recent fluctuation, Stamp speculation seems like a nice ride 
> to jump
>   on, especially since if you buy a stamp low, you then want to spend 
> additional
>   shinies to drive the price up.  A monthly stamp is too low volume to 
> support
>   speculation, maybe make a different Series (a bond) with a faster 
> creation rate
>   (but no Win attached).

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

Routinely buying Stamps low and selling high to eventually buy your win
doesn't feel very interesting to me (but I'm doing it myself because it's
just the best thing to do rn). It's just sitting and getting your loyalty
card stamped and then getting rewarded for it.

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > This is the core of G.’s protest: there’s nothing to drive transaction
> volume,
> > so prices sink inexorably towards the lowest value they _can_ reach.
>
> Seeing the recent fluctuation, Stamp speculation seems like a nice ride to
> jump
> on, especially since if you buy a stamp low, you then want to spend
> additional
> shinies to drive the price up.  A monthly stamp is too low volume to
> support
> speculation, maybe make a different Series (a bond) with a faster creation
> rate
> (but no Win attached).
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> This is the core of G.’s protest: there’s nothing to drive transaction 
> volume, 
> so prices sink inexorably towards the lowest value they _can_ reach.

Seeing the recent fluctuation, Stamp speculation seems like a nice ride to jump
on, especially since if you buy a stamp low, you then want to spend additional 
shinies to drive the price up.  A monthly stamp is too low volume to support
speculation, maybe make a different Series (a bond) with a faster creation rate
(but no Win attached).

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> It's time for Agoran Economy: Venezuela edition : P
> 
> No but in seriousness, we have a single fixed price which is the Welcome 
> Package, which I believe is to blame for most of the shiny drought. It's just 
> too much in comparison to the total amount of shinies Agora has in total, 
> imo. If we had more banknotes, it would be less of a problem. We should 
> adjust the floating value stuff a bit too with it though imo.

I tend to agree that the Welcome Packages are too large. More generally, I 
think the fixed prices need reconciling a bit to bring the immediate gameplay 
utility and the relative payoff into closer alignment, and the ratios between 
the various floating-price rewards and costs adjusted a bit in the same vein.

-o




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 6:42 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> than that is a tad extreme, no?

Look at the current situation.

We have, nominally, 1k shinies. As of the start of the week, over 90% of them 
were in the hands of players. During the week, even with a situation casting 
some doubt on the validity of sh.-denominated transactions, we moved 130 sh. 
around.

The effective transaction volume is dominated by small transactions, while most 
of the “circulating” shinies are in fact in stockpiles. (Yes, including mine. I 
owned around 10% of all Shinies at the start of the week, and PSS another 10%.) 
I’m not sure that adding more shinies would meaningfully cause much inflation 
in the actual prices, in the medium term, unless we did something to address 
stockpiling, but it _would_ cause the Floating Value to spike for a while, 
locking some (all, if we kicked the FV up to 3,000 at a stroke) players out of 
FV-limited actions for a while until enough shinies enter circulation.

This is the core of G.’s protest: there’s nothing to drive transaction volume, 
so prices sink inexorably towards the lowest value they _can_ reach. We’re 
demonstrably holding onto shinies until we’re sure we’re maximizing the utility 
of spending them. Therefore, kicking the FV up will make stockpiling worse 
without really doing anything to address liquidity.

I strongly suspect we need a basic revenue for all players for Shinies to 
remain effective and fun. This is a purely pragmatic stance, as I like seeing 
the game more active, and hoarding is the opposite of that. I suspect we also 
need a use-it-or-lose-it mechanic, so that large stockpiles don’t act as an 
effective trump card. (Who wants to bid against PSS or I on an Estate auction, 
as things stand?)

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Improved Buoyancy

[Owen Jacobson]

I realize this is a bit late, since the proposal in question has been 
distributed, but:

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 4:10 PM Aris Merchant 
 wrote:

> I retract the proposal "Improved Buoyancy". I submit the following proposal.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> ---
> Title: Improved Buoyancy v2
> Adoption index: 2.0
> Author: Aris
> Co-authors: G.
> 
> [Note to the Assessor: please resolve after "Float On".]
> 
> [It is my belief that the current floating value problem was primarily caused
> by the Secretary only being able to set the floating value correctly. This
> erases certainty, as any flaw in the Secretary's report likely invalidates all
> rule-defined transactions until the flaw is discovered unless the switch
> self-ratifies. The probability of deliberate abuse by the secretary is small,
> the probability of error is large.]
> 
> If the proposal "Float On" been adopted: {
> Amend Rule 2497, "Floating Value", by changing its first paragraph to read:
> 
>   Floating Value is a natural singleton switch, tracked by the Secretary.
> 
> Amend Rule 2456, "The Secretary", by changing the paragraph "As part of the
> Secretary's weekly duties, e CAN and SHALL flip the Floating Value to the
> number of Shinies owned by Agora. E SHOULD do this while publishing eir
> weekly report." to read as follows:
> 
>   The Secretary CAN flip the floating value once a week by announcement. As 
> part
>   of eir weekly duties, e SHALL flip the Floating Value to the number of 
> Shinies
>   owned by Agora; e SHALL NOT ever set it to a different value.
>   E SHOULD do this while publishing eir weekly report. If the Secretary
>   discovers that e last flipped the floating value to an incorrect value and e
>   would not otherwise be able to set it again yet, e CAN and SHALL set the 
> value
>   to what it should have been set to in the first place by announcement.

Seems reasonable, as that’s what I had been doing anyways. I note your 
construction, here: if I publish a mistaken value, it works, but it’s cardable, 
even after it’s corrected. I think that’s fine; most minor errors should draw a 
Green Card, but this leaves the door open for anything up to a Pink Slip if 
it’s clearly in bad faith.

I have some concerns about codifying what an Officer “discovers” as a 
rules-relevant event, though. It might be worth revising this to fit within the 
CoE framework, or something like it. Do we have prior art, here?

> } Otherwise, if the proposal "Float On" has been resolved, but not adopted: {
> Amend Rule 2497, "Floating Value", by changing it to read in full:
> 
>   Floating Value is a natural singleton switch, tracked by the Secretary.
> 
>   The Secretary CAN flip the floating value once a week by announcement. As 
> part
>   of eir weekly duties, e SHALL flip the Floating Value to the number of 
> Shinies
>   owned by Agora; e SHALL NOT ever set it to a different value. E SHOULD do
>   this while publishing eir weekly report. If the Secretary discovers that e
>   last flipped the floating value to an incorrect value and e would not
>   otherwise be able to set it again yet, e CAN and SHALL set the value to what
>   it should have been set to in the first place by announcement.
> 
> } Otherwise: {
>   Glare pointedly at the Assessor.
>   std::abort();
> }

LINT: I believe the final case to be unreachable.

With a grin,

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

If they were my friend, they would say Publius. In writing, they would write P. 
Scribonius.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 9:07 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> (also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and copy/
>> paste whenever I need it :P )
> 
> Actually I've been meaning to ask:  how would a fellow Roman back in the
> day refer to Publius Scribonius Scholasticus (i.e. informally)?
> Would it be "Publius"?  Dunno much about how Roman family names work, but
> being classically correct is probably perferrable to using "PSS"...
> 
> -G.  (actually pronounced "Goethe", alt. "Gravity")
> 
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

Likely much like we do today lol.

Roman grafitti is very funny and strikingly similar to us nowadays:
http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%20Pompeii.htm

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > (also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and
> copy/
> > paste whenever I need it :P )
>
> Actually I've been meaning to ask:  how would a fellow Roman back in the
> day refer to Publius Scribonius Scholasticus (i.e. informally)?
> Would it be "Publius"?  Dunno much about how Roman family names work, but
> being classically correct is probably perferrable to using "PSS"...
>
> -G.  (actually pronounced "Goethe", alt. "Gravity")
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> (also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and copy/
> paste whenever I need it :P )

Actually I've been meaning to ask:  how would a fellow Roman back in the
day refer to Publius Scribonius Scholasticus (i.e. informally)?
Would it be "Publius"?  Dunno much about how Roman family names work, but
being classically correct is probably perferrable to using "PSS"...

-G.  (actually pronounced "Goethe", alt. "Gravity")

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

I suppose it's better than "Josh". Don't overdo it, I guess, but it's not
like I can stop you.

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 20:58, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> I'll do "Fox" then (much how I say PSS and not the full name every lol)
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> (also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and
>> copy/
>> paste whenever I need it :P )
>>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> > Thanks!  I was remembering that you'd given a favored transliteration
>> back
>> > then, but couldn't find it.
>> >
>> > I think I'll add this as gratuitous arguments to that case log, so I'll
>> > know where to find it :).
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
>> > > I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it
>> when the
>> > > CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and
>> provide
>> > > a preferred reading. The preferred reading/transliteration is
>> "amatsukagitsune"
>> > > and translates to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are
>> other
>> > > meanings possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that
>> way).
>> > > I suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence
>> flow
>> > > better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears
>> as I
>> > > sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no
>> more
>> > > mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?
>> > > 天火狐
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

I'll do "Fox" then (much how I say PSS and not the full name every lol)

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> (also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and copy/
> paste whenever I need it :P )
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > Thanks!  I was remembering that you'd given a favored transliteration
> back
> > then, but couldn't find it.
> >
> > I think I'll add this as gratuitous arguments to that case log, so I'll
> > know where to find it :).
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > > I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it
> when the
> > > CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and
> provide
> > > a preferred reading. The preferred reading/transliteration is
> "amatsukagitsune"
> > > and translates to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are
> other
> > > meanings possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that
> way).
> > > I suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence
> flow
> > > better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears
> as I
> > > sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no
> more
> > > mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?
> > > 天火狐
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

(also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and copy/
paste whenever I need it :P )

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote: 
> Thanks!  I was remembering that you'd given a favored transliteration back
> then, but couldn't find it.
> 
> I think I'll add this as gratuitous arguments to that case log, so I'll
> know where to find it :).
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it when 
> > the 
> > CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and provide
> > a preferred reading. The preferred reading/transliteration is 
> > "amatsukagitsune"
> > and translates to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are other
> > meanings possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that way). 
> > I suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence flow
> > better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears as I
> > sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no more
> > mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?
> > 天火狐

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

Thanks!  I was remembering that you'd given a favored transliteration back
then, but couldn't find it.

I think I'll add this as gratuitous arguments to that case log, so I'll
know where to find it :).

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it when the 
> CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and provide
> a preferred reading. The preferred reading/transliteration is 
> "amatsukagitsune"
> and translates to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are other
> meanings possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that way). 
> I suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence flow
> better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears as I
> sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no more
> mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?
> 天火狐
> 
> On 10 September 2017 at 20:26, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
>   天火狐, would you be willing to supply either a transliteration of
>   the Japanese sounds to your desired spelling, or go by "The sky fox"?
>   (I think that latter choice is slightly off your desired translation
>   IIRC).  I'll respect it if you don't, but I'm always pausing to go
>   copy and paste when referring to you.
> 
>   On Mon, 11 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>   > yeah e should be referred to as 天火狐 but it's not a memorable word.
>   >
>   > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   >  wrote:
>   > > Nicknames are common law issues. But ratified Registrar’s reports 
> contradict that and if they don’t they will in the future.
>   > > 
>   > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:13 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>   > >>
>   > >> Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.
>   > >>
>   > >> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   > >>  wrote:
>   > >>> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
>   > >>> 
>   > >>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   > >>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>   > >>>
>   > >>>
>   > >>>
>   >  On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam  
> wrote:
>   > 
>   >  Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
>   > 
>   >  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T 
>  wrote:
>   >  I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not 
> what the header says.
>   > 
>   >  天火狐
>   > 
>   >  On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam 
>  wrote:
>   >  @Josh we really need that corkboard.
>   > 
>   >  I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your 
> Agency and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
>   > 
>   >  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T 
>  wrote:
>   > > Vote purchases/sells when
>   > 
>   >  Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>   > 
>   >  天火狐
>   > 
>   >  On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam 
>  wrote:
>   >  I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain 
> with though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>   > 
>   >  Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship 
> a lot, I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>   > 
>   > > Loan Bank when
>   > > AP brokers when
>   > > Vote purchase/sells when
>   > 
>   >  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
>   >  This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>   >  
>   >  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   >  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>  wrote:
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and 
> privately
>   > > finance eir debt.
>   > >
>   > > Other ideas:
>   > > - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a 
> good one,
>   > >   as part of the float calculations possibly.
>   > >
>   > > - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious 
> if the
>   > >   downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it when
the CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and
provide a preferred reading.

The preferred reading/transliteration is "amatsukagitsune" and translates
to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are other meanings
possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that way). I
suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence flow
better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears as I
sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no more
mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 20:26, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> 天火狐, would you be willing to supply either a transliteration of
> the Japanese sounds to your desired spelling, or go by "The sky fox"?
> (I think that latter choice is slightly off your desired translation
> IIRC).  I'll respect it if you don't, but I'm always pausing to go
> copy and paste when referring to you.
>
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> > yeah e should be referred to as 天火狐 but it's not a memorable word.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  wrote:
> > > Nicknames are common law issues. But ratified Registrar’s reports
> contradict that and if they don’t they will in the future.
> > > 
> > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:13 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >  On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> > 
> >  Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
> > 
> >  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T 
> wrote:
> >  I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what
> the header says.
> > 
> >  天火狐
> > 
> >  On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> >  @Josh we really need that corkboard.
> > 
> >  I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your
> Agency and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
> > 
> >  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T 
> wrote:
> > > Vote purchases/sells when
> > 
> >  Have you not seen my latest Agency?
> > 
> >  天火狐
> > 
> >  On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> >  I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with
> though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
> > 
> >  Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a
> lot, I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
> > 
> > > Loan Bank when
> > > AP brokers when
> > > Vote purchase/sells when
> > 
> >  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >  This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
> >  
> >  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and
> privately
> > > finance eir debt.
> > >
> > > Other ideas:
> > > - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good
> one,
> > >   as part of the float calculations possibly.
> > >
> > > - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if
> the
> > >   downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some
> fraction
> > >   of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> > >
> > > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much
> more
> > >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> > >>
> > >> -Aris
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam <
> cuddleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
> economy will
> > >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
> available, for
> > >>> example.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >>>  wrote:
> > 
> >  I 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

天火狐, would you be willing to supply either a transliteration of
the Japanese sounds to your desired spelling, or go by "The sky fox"?
(I think that latter choice is slightly off your desired translation
IIRC).  I'll respect it if you don't, but I'm always pausing to go
copy and paste when referring to you.

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> yeah e should be referred to as 天火狐 but it's not a memorable word.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
> > Nicknames are common law issues. But ratified Registrar’s reports 
> > contradict that and if they don’t they will in the future.
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:13 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >>
> >> Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>  wrote:
> >>> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
> >>> 
> >>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>  On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
>  Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
> 
>  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T  
>  wrote:
>  I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the 
>  header says.
> 
>  天火狐
> 
>  On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>  @Josh we really need that corkboard.
> 
>  I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency 
>  and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
> 
>  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  
>  wrote:
> > Vote purchases/sells when
> 
>  Have you not seen my latest Agency?
> 
>  天火狐
> 
>  On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>  I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with 
>  though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
> 
>  Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, 
>  I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
> 
> > Loan Bank when
> > AP brokers when
> > Vote purchase/sells when
> 
>  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>   wrote:
>  This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> > finance eir debt.
> >
> > Other ideas:
> > - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
> >   as part of the float calculations possibly.
> >
> > - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
> >   downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
> >   of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >>
> >> -Aris
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  
> >> wrote:
> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the 
> >>> economy will
> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies 
> >>> available, for
> >>> example.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>>  wrote:
> 
>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. 
>  You
>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork 
>  of the
>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo 
>  for
>  comment.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum 
> > salary
> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[VJ Rada]

yeah e should be referred to as 天火狐 but it's not a memorable word.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> Nicknames are common law issues. But ratified Registrar’s reports contradict 
> that and if they don’t they will in the future.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:13 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>
>> Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  wrote:
>>> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

 Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol

 On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T  wrote:
 I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the 
 header says.

 天火狐

 On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
 @Josh we really need that corkboard.

 I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency 
 and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.

 On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> Vote purchases/sells when

 Have you not seen my latest Agency?

 天火狐

 On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
 I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though, 
 to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.

 Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, 
 I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.

> Loan Bank when
> AP brokers when
> Vote purchase/sells when

 On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
  wrote:
 This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
>
> Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> finance eir debt.
>
> Other ideas:
> - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>   as part of the float calculations possibly.
>
> - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>   downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>   of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  
>> wrote:
>>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy 
>>> will
>>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies 
>>> available, for
>>> example.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>  wrote:

 I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. 
 You
 can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork 
 of the
 ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
 comment.
 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  
> wrote:
>
>
>
> A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join 
>> and
>> Leave Agora
>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> consent.
>>
>> A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> +  for 30 days.
>>
>> If a player has not sent a message to 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Nicknames are common law issues. But ratified Registrar’s reports contradict 
that and if they don’t they will in the future.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:13 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
>> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T  wrote:
>>> I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the 
>>> header says.
>>> 
>>> 天火狐
>>> 
>>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
>>> 
>>> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency and 
>>> I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  wrote:
 Vote purchases/sells when
>>> 
>>> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>>> 
>>> 天火狐
>>> 
>>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though, 
>>> to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>>> 
>>> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, I'd 
>>> love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>>> 
 Loan Bank when
 AP brokers when
 Vote purchase/sells when
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>>  wrote:
>>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
 
 
 
 Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
 finance eir debt.
 
 Other ideas:
 - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
   as part of the float calculations possibly.
 
 - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
   downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
   of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
 
 On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy 
>> will
>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, 
>> for
>> example.
>> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>>> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of 
>>> the
>>> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>>> comment.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  
 wrote:
 
 
 
 A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
 or other basic shiny supply is passed.
 
 On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> Leave Agora
> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> consent.
> 
> A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> +  for 30 days.
> 
> If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> }
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[VJ Rada]

Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>
>> Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T  wrote:
>> I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the header 
>> says.
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
>>
>> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency and 
>> I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  wrote:
>> > Vote purchases/sells when
>>
>> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though, to 
>> start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>>
>> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, I'd 
>> love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>>
>> >Loan Bank when
>> >AP brokers when
>> >Vote purchase/sells when
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>  wrote:
>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
>> > finance eir debt.
>> >
>> > Other ideas:
>> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
>> >
>> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>> >>
>> >> -Aris
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy 
>> >>> will
>> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, 
>> >>> for
>> >>> example.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of 
>>  the
>>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>>  comment.
>>  
>>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
>> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
>> >> Leave Agora
>> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> >>  consent.
>> >>
>> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> >> +  for 30 days.
>> >>
>> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> >> }
>> >> 
>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the header 
> says.
> 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
> 
> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency and 
> I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> > Vote purchases/sells when
> 
> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
> 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though, to 
> start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
> 
> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, I'd 
> love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
> 
> >Loan Bank when
> >AP brokers when
> >Vote purchase/sells when
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> > finance eir debt.
> >
> > Other ideas:
> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
> >
> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >>
> >> -Aris
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy 
> >>> will
> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, 
> >>> for
> >>> example.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>>  wrote:
> 
>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of 
>  the
>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>  comment.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> >> Leave Agora
> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >>  consent.
> >>
> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> >> +  for 30 days.
> >>
> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> }
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>>
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T  wrote:

> I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the
> header says.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>
>> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
>>
>> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency
>> and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> > Vote purchases/sells when
>>>
>>> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>>>
>>> 天火狐
>>>
>>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>>
 I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with
 though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.

 Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot,
 I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.

 >Loan Bank when
 >AP brokers when
 >Vote purchase/sells when

 On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and
> privately
> > finance eir debt.
> >
> > Other ideas:
> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good
> one,
> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
> >
> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if
> the
> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some
> fraction
> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much
> more
> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >>
> >> -Aris
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
> economy will
> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
> available, for
> >>> example.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>>  wrote:
> 
>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous
> ideas. You
>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my
> fork of the
>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a
> photo for
>  comment.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
> salary
> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to
> Join and
> >> Leave Agora
> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >>  consent.
> >>
> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a
> player
> >> +  for 30 days.
> >>
> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the
> last
> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> }
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>>
> >>
>
>

>>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

For me those are the same.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the header 
> says.
> 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
> 
> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency and 
> I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  wrote:
> > Vote purchases/sells when
> 
> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
> 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though, to 
> start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
> 
> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, I'd 
> love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
> 
> >Loan Bank when
> >AP brokers when
> >Vote purchase/sells when
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> > finance eir debt.
> >
> > Other ideas:
> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
> >
> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >>
> >> -Aris
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy 
> >>> will
> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, 
> >>> for
> >>> example.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>>  wrote:
> 
>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of 
>  the
>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>  comment.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> >> Leave Agora
> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >>  consent.
> >>
> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> >> +  for 30 days.
> >>
> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> }
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>>
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



signature.asc
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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the
header says.

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
>
> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency
> and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T 
> wrote:
>
>> > Vote purchases/sells when
>>
>> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>
>>> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with
>>> though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>>>
>>> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot,
>>> I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>>>
>>> >Loan Bank when
>>> >AP brokers when
>>> >Vote purchase/sells when
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
 This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



 > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
 wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and
 privately
 > finance eir debt.
 >
 > Other ideas:
 >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good
 one,
 >as part of the float calculations possibly.
 >
 >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
 >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
 >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
 >
 > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
 >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much
 more
 >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
 >>
 >> -Aris
 >>
 >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
 wrote:
 >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
 economy will
 >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
 available, for
 >>> example.
 >>>
 >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 >>>  wrote:
 
  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous
 ideas. You
  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my
 fork of the
  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a
 photo for
  comment.
  
  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
 
 
 
 > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
 wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
 salary
 > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
 >
 > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
 >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
 >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to
 Join and
 >> Leave Agora
 >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
 >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
 >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
 >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
 >>  consent.
 >>
 >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
 >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
 >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a
 player
 >> +  for 30 days.
 >>
 >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
 >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
 >> }
 >> 
 >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 
 >>>
 >>


>>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

@Josh we really need that corkboard.

I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency and
I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T  wrote:

> > Vote purchases/sells when
>
> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>
>> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though,
>> to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>>
>> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot,
>> I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>>
>> >Loan Bank when
>> >AP brokers when
>> >Vote purchase/sells when
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
>>> > finance eir debt.
>>> >
>>> > Other ideas:
>>> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>>> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
>>> >
>>> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>>> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>>> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>>> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>>> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>>> >>
>>> >> -Aris
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
>>> economy will
>>> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
>>> available, for
>>> >>> example.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> >>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous
>>> ideas. You
>>>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my
>>> fork of the
>>>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
>>> for
>>>  comment.
>>>  
>>>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
>>> salary
>>> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>>> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to
>>> Join and
>>> >> Leave Agora
>>> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>>> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>> >>  consent.
>>> >>
>>> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>>> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>>> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>>> >> +  for 30 days.
>>> >>
>>> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>>> >> }
>>> >> 
>>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> 
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

> Vote purchases/sells when

Have you not seen my latest Agency?

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though,
> to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>
> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot,
> I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>
> >Loan Bank when
> >AP brokers when
> >Vote purchase/sells when
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
>> > finance eir debt.
>> >
>> > Other ideas:
>> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
>> >
>> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>> >>
>> >> -Aris
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
>> wrote:
>> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
>> economy will
>> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
>> available, for
>> >>> example.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas.
>> You
>>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork
>> of the
>>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
>> for
>>  comment.
>>  
>>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
>> salary
>> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
>> and
>> >> Leave Agora
>> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> >>  consent.
>> >>
>> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> >> +  for 30 days.
>> >>
>> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> >> }
>> >> 
>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though,
to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.

Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot, I'd
love to see people open businesses and make business myself.

>Loan Bank when
>AP brokers when
>Vote purchase/sells when

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> > finance eir debt.
> >
> > Other ideas:
> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
> >
> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >>
> >> -Aris
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
> economy will
> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
> available, for
> >>> example.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>>  wrote:
> 
>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas.
> You
>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork
> of the
>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
> for
>  comment.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
> salary
> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
> and
> >> Leave Agora
> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >>  consent.
> >>
> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> >> +  for 30 days.
> >>
> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> }
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>>
> >>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> finance eir debt.
> 
> Other ideas:
>  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>as part of the float calculations possibly.
> 
>  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>> 
>> -Aris
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy will
>>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, for
>>> example.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>  wrote:
 
 I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
 can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the
 ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
 comment.
 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
 
 
 
> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
>> Leave Agora
>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>  consent.
>> 
>>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> +  for 30 days.
>> 
>>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> }
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
 
>>> 
>> 



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

I like this a LOT.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:30 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:

> We could go full libertarian style. Gov't owns no money, instead give
> it all to players and private banks. No rewards, you get reports when
> you pay for them. CFJs are removed and private arbitration rules. New
> players get all their money from starting a goddamn business, or
> charity.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > I like the idea of Agora being able to be in debt with players.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> >> finance eir debt.
> >>
> >> Other ideas:
> >>   - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
> >> as part of the float calculations possibly.
> >>
> >>   - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
> >> downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
> >> of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
> >>
> >> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> > Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> >> > than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >> >
> >> > -Aris
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
> >> > > economy will
> >> > > destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
> >> > > available, for
> >> > > example.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> > >  wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous
> ideas.
> >> > >> You
> >> > >> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my
> fork
> >> > >> of the
> >> > >> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> comment.
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> > >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  >
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
> >> > >> > salary
> >> > >> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> > >> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> > >> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to
> Join
> >> > >> >> and
> >> > >> >> Leave Agora
> >> > >> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> > >> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> > >> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> > >> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >> > >> >>   consent.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by
> announcement.
> >> > >> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> > >> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a
> player
> >> > >> >> +  for 30 days.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the
> last
> >> > >> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> > >> >> }
> >> > >> >> 
> >> > >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> > >> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[VJ Rada]

We could go full libertarian style. Gov't owns no money, instead give
it all to players and private banks. No rewards, you get reports when
you pay for them. CFJs are removed and private arbitration rules. New
players get all their money from starting a goddamn business, or
charity.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> I like the idea of Agora being able to be in debt with players.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
>> finance eir debt.
>>
>> Other ideas:
>>   - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>> as part of the float calculations possibly.
>>
>>   - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>> downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>> of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> > Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> > than that is a tad extreme, no?
>> >
>> > -Aris
>> >
>> > On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
>> > wrote:
>> > > I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
>> > > economy will
>> > > destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
>> > > available, for
>> > > example.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> > >  wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas.
>> > >> You
>> > >> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork
>> > >> of the
>> > >> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
>> > >> for
>> > >> comment.
>> > >> 
>> > >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> > >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
>> > >> > salary
>> > >> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> > >> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> > >> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
>> > >> >> and
>> > >> >> Leave Agora
>> > >> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> > >> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> > >> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> > >> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> > >> >>   consent.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> > >> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> > >> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> > >> >> +  for 30 days.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>> > >> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> > >> >> }
>> > >> >> 
>> > >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> > >> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
>
>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

I like the idea of Agora being able to be in debt with players.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
> finance eir debt.
>
> Other ideas:
>   - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
> as part of the float calculations possibly.
>
>   - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
> downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
> of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> > than that is a tad extreme, no?
> >
> > -Aris
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> > > I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
> economy will
> > > destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
> available, for
> > > example.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas.
> You
> > >> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork
> of the
> > >> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
> for
> > >> comment.
> > >> 
> > >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
> salary
> > >> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > >> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> > >> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
> and
> > >> >> Leave Agora
> > >> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> > >> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> > >> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> > >> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> > >> >>   consent.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> > >> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> > >> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> > >> >> +  for 30 days.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> > >> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> > >> >> }
> > >> >> 
> > >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
finance eir debt.

Other ideas:  
  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
as part of the float calculations possibly.

  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy will
> > destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, for
> > example.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
> >> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the
> >> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
> >> comment.
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> >> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> >> >> Leave Agora
> >> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >> >>   consent.
> >> >>
> >> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> >> >> +  for 30 days.
> >> >>
> >> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> >> }
> >> >> 
> >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Aris Merchant]

The reason Agora has a shiny crisis is that the number of existing
players weren't accounted for when deciding how much the Supply Level
should be. It really needed to be 2000, to give us more of a margin.
Oh well.

-Aris

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> It's time for Agoran Economy: Venezuela edition : P
>
> No but in seriousness, we have a single fixed price which is the Welcome
> Package, which I believe is to blame for most of the shiny drought. It's
> just too much in comparison to the total amount of shinies Agora has in
> total, imo. If we had more banknotes, it would be less of a problem. We
> should adjust the floating value stuff a bit too with it though imo.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
>>
>> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> > I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy
>> > will
>> > destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available,
>> > for
>> > example.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas.
>> >> You
>> >> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of
>> >> the
>> >> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>> >> comment.
>> >> 
>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
>> >> > salary
>> >> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> >> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> >> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> Leave Agora
>> >> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> >> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> >> >>   consent.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> >> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> >> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> >> >> +  for 30 days.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>> >> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> >> >> }
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

There's also the problem that it's actually desirable to keep Agora as bone
dry as possible, to manipulate the Floating Value.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:49 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:

> Maybe tie inflation to new players? So firstly add like an "emergency
> fund" of 100 or so now, and then whenever a new player joins increase
> agora's balance by that %.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Note that any scheme that says you can get something for having
> > less than a certain level of liquid assets can be scammed by two
> > people passing their assets back and forth.
> >
> >   in past economies, any form of progressive wealth distribution
> > pretty much instantly led to tax avoidance contracts and schemes,
> > I think the only way to get around it is to tie it to expected income,
> > rather than holdings (e.g. Officers get less, having to resign offices
> > to get the reward is more of a deterrent).
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> >
> >> Simple proto: At the eginning of the m9nth, every player who has 0
> stamps and less than the current stamp value in shinies can
> >> and may claim enough shinies to have whatever the stamp value was at
> 00:00 on the first of the month.
> >>
> >> On Sep 10, 2017 4:46 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>   A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
> salary
> >>   or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >>
> >>   On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >>   > I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >>   > diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to
> Join and Leave Agora
> >>   > index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >>   > --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >>   > +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >>   > @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >>   >consent.
> >>   >
> >>   >A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by
> announcement.
> >>   > -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >>   > +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a
> player
> >>   > +  for 30 days.
> >>   >
> >>   >If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the
> last
> >>   >month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >>   > }
> >>   > 
> >>   > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >>   > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>   >
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

It's time for Agoran Economy: Venezuela edition : P

No but in seriousness, we have a single fixed price which is the Welcome
Package, which I believe is to blame for most of the shiny drought. It's
just too much in comparison to the total amount of shinies Agora has in
total, imo. If we had more banknotes, it would be less of a problem. We
should adjust the floating value stuff a bit too with it though imo.


On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>
> -Aris
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy
> will
> > destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available,
> for
> > example.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
> >> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of
> the
> >> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
> >> comment.
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> >> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
> and
> >> >> Leave Agora
> >> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >> >>   consent.
> >> >>
> >> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> >> >> +  for 30 days.
> >> >>
> >> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> >> }
> >> >> 
> >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[VJ Rada]

Maybe tie inflation to new players? So firstly add like an "emergency
fund" of 100 or so now, and then whenever a new player joins increase
agora's balance by that %.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> Note that any scheme that says you can get something for having
> less than a certain level of liquid assets can be scammed by two
> people passing their assets back and forth.
>
>   in past economies, any form of progressive wealth distribution
> pretty much instantly led to tax avoidance contracts and schemes,
> I think the only way to get around it is to tie it to expected income,
> rather than holdings (e.g. Officers get less, having to resign offices
> to get the reward is more of a deterrent).
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Nicholas Evans wrote:
>
>> Simple proto: At the eginning of the m9nth, every player who has 0 stamps 
>> and less than the current stamp value in shinies can
>> and may claim enough shinies to have whatever the stamp value was at 00:00 
>> on the first of the month.
>>
>> On Sep 10, 2017 4:46 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>   A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
>>   or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>>
>>   On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>   > I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>>   > diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join 
>> and Leave Agora
>>   > index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>>   > --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>   > +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>   > @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>   >consent.
>>   >
>>   >A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>>   > -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>>   > +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>>   > +  for 30 days.
>>   >
>>   >If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>   >month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>>   > }
>>   > 
>>   > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>   > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>
>>
>>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

How would you feel about it if nichdel’s changes were used?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> P.S.S., if you want this distributed this week you should pend it now.
> Also, see my comments on "Not So Cuddly Now" regarding my views about
> this style of proposal.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and Leave 
>> Agora
>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>   consent.
>> 
>>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> +  for 30 days.
>> 
>>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> }
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Kerim Aydin]

Note that any scheme that says you can get something for having
less than a certain level of liquid assets can be scammed by two 
people passing their assets back and forth.

  in past economies, any form of progressive wealth distribution 
pretty much instantly led to tax avoidance contracts and schemes,
I think the only way to get around it is to tie it to expected income,
rather than holdings (e.g. Officers get less, having to resign offices
to get the reward is more of a deterrent).

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Nicholas Evans wrote:

> Simple proto: At the eginning of the m9nth, every player who has 0 stamps and 
> less than the current stamp value in shinies can
> and may claim enough shinies to have whatever the stamp value was at 00:00 on 
> the first of the month.
> 
> On Sep 10, 2017 4:46 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:
> 
> 
>   A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
>   or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> 
>   On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>   > I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>   > diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join 
> and Leave Agora
>   > index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>   > --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>   > +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>   > @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>   >    consent.
>   >
>   >    A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>   > -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>   > +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>   > +  for 30 days.
>   >
>   >    If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>   >    month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>   > }
>   > 
>   > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>   > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[VJ Rada]

i mean agora is  broke and people cant get welcome packages. not like
inflation matters that much because price of things that people
actually buy is rulically fixed. ppl ain't exchanging w/ each other
much rn.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:
> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>
> -Aris
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy will
>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, for
>> example.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>>> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the
>>> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>>> comment.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
>>> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>>> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
>>> >> Leave Agora
>>> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>>> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>> >>   consent.
>>> >>
>>> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>>> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>>> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>>> >> +  for 30 days.
>>> >>
>>> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>>> >> }
>>> >> 
>>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

My way will be automated in a variety of ways. If you would like to contribute, 
I can add you as a collaborator.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 6:42 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
> than that is a tad extreme, no?
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy will
>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, for
>> example.
>> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>>> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the
>>> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>>> comment.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
 
 
 
 A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
 or other basic shiny supply is passed.
 
 On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> Leave Agora
> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>  consent.
> 
>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> +  for 30 days.
> 
>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> }
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> 
>> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Aris Merchant]

Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
than that is a tad extreme, no?

-Aris

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy will
> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies available, for
> example.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
>>
>> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
>> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the
>> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
>> comment.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
>> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
>> >> Leave Agora
>> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> >>   consent.
>> >>
>> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> >> +  for 30 days.
>> >>
>> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> >> }
>> >> 
>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Cuddle Beam]

I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the economy
will destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
available, for example.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You
> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the
> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for
> comment.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> Leave Agora
> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >>   consent.
> >>
> >>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> >> +  for 30 days.
> >>
> >>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> >> }
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas. You can 
view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork of the 
ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo for comment.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and Leave 
>> Agora
>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>   consent.
>> 
>>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> +  for 30 days.
>> 
>>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> }
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like this idea, but how are things handled when Agora has too few shinies.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Nicholas Evans  wrote:
> 
> Simple proto: At the eginning of the m9nth, every player who has 0 stamps and 
> less than the current stamp value in shinies can and may claim enough shinies 
> to have whatever the stamp value was at 00:00 on the first of the month.
> 
> On Sep 10, 2017 4:46 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:
> 
> 
> A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> or other basic shiny supply is passed.
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> > diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and 
> > Leave Agora
> > index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> > --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> > +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> > @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >consent.
> >
> >A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> > -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> > +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> > +  for 30 days.
> >
> >If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> > }
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Nicholas Evans]

Simple proto: At the eginning of the m9nth, every player who has 0 stamps
and less than the current stamp value in shinies can and may claim enough
shinies to have whatever the stamp value was at 00:00 on the first of the
month.

On Sep 10, 2017 4:46 PM, "Kerim Aydin"  wrote:

>
>
> A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum salary
> or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
> > diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and
> Leave Agora
> > index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
> > --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> > +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
> > @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
> >consent.
> >
> >A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
> > -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
> > +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
> > +  for 30 days.
> >
> >If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
> >month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
> > }
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Nic Evans]

On 09/10/17 16:40, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I will definitely do this in the future. Would you recommend retracting this 
> and replacing it?
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com

I don't think it's necessary, the intent seems unambiguous to me.
They're more style suggestions than anything else.

>
>
>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:42 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>>
>> WRT to this style of proposal:
>>
>>
>> On 09/10/17 16:30, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and 
>>> Leave Agora
>>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>>   consent.
>> I'd remove all this part and possibly replace it with a quick blurb
>> stating "Amend RXXX: by adding the lines starting with + and removing
>> the lines starting with -". A simple wrapper script could do most of
>> that work, and it'd be more readable to people not familiar with diffs.
>>
>>>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>>> +  for 30 days.
>> This looks nice.
>>
>>>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>>> }
>> I'd also trim the context that diffs leave in.
>>
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I will definitely do this in the future. Would you recommend retracting this 
and replacing it?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:42 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> WRT to this style of proposal:
> 
> 
> On 09/10/17 16:30, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join and Leave 
>> Agora
>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>   consent.
> 
> I'd remove all this part and possibly replace it with a quick blurb
> stating "Amend RXXX: by adding the lines starting with + and removing
> the lines starting with -". A simple wrapper script could do most of
> that work, and it'd be more readable to people not familiar with diffs.
> 
>> 
>>   A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> +  for 30 days.
> 
> This looks nice.
> 
>>   If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>   month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> }
> 
> I'd also trim the context that diffs leave in.
> 
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Truthfulness

[Kerim Aydin]

Actually, the word democratization made me think of another approach,
  it was called karma, and it worked pretty well most of the
time as a nice social constraint and reward with occasioanal spats of tit for 
tat
that were self-limiting, because if the combatants got out of hand, others
would step in a dock both sides.  And it was at a guess 80% positive, 20%
negative.  Think I'll throw a proposal for that out.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> On 09/10/17 12:41, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >
> > I've always disliked thought police rules, we've had them, but both
> > the burden of evidence and bad feeling make them a pain, and trying
> > to codify specific forbidden speech leaves loopholes where a scammer
> > can skirt the technical punishment while still being just as "bad".
> >
> > Going along with our current punishment metaphor, and recent discussion of 
> > conduct, why not just implement an "unsportsmanlike conduct" card with some
> > general guidelines on what that is, maybe a higher bar for fingerpointing 
> > (I dunno, 
> > 3 support) and/or letting judges figure out what qualifies...
> 
> Democratizing sanctions on conduct sounds a lot like a popularity
> contest, and probably breeds just as many bad feelings.
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Truthfulness

[Nic Evans]

On 09/10/17 12:41, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> I've always disliked thought police rules, we've had them, but both
> the burden of evidence and bad feeling make them a pain, and trying
> to codify specific forbidden speech leaves loopholes where a scammer
> can skirt the technical punishment while still being just as "bad".
>
> Going along with our current punishment metaphor, and recent discussion of 
> conduct, why not just implement an "unsportsmanlike conduct" card with some
> general guidelines on what that is, maybe a higher bar for fingerpointing (I 
> dunno, 
> 3 support) and/or letting judges figure out what qualifies...

Democratizing sanctions on conduct sounds a lot like a popularity
contest, and probably breeds just as many bad feelings.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Truthfulness

[Cuddle Beam]

Proto:
White Card: This card is appropriate for cases of unsportsmanlike contact
where no other card is appropriate. This card can be (and only be) awarded
by announcement which also contains a specification of a number and 3
support. The possessor of this card cannot perform any ruleset-granted
action for that number's amount of days.

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> I've always disliked thought police rules, we've had them, but both
> the burden of evidence and bad feeling make them a pain, and trying
> to codify specific forbidden speech leaves loopholes where a scammer
> can skirt the technical punishment while still being just as "bad".
>
> Going along with our current punishment metaphor, and recent discussion of
> conduct, why not just implement an "unsportsmanlike conduct" card with some
> general guidelines on what that is, maybe a higher bar for fingerpointing
> (I dunno,
> 3 support) and/or letting judges figure out what qualifies...
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > Do statements on a-d count?
> > Do statements that people publish elsewhere, outside of Agora, also
> count?
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Aris Merchant <
> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   I retract the proposal "Truthfulness", and submit the following.
> >
> >   ---
> >   Title: Truthfulness v2
> >   Adoption index: 1.0
> >   Author: Aris
> >   Co-authors:
> >
> >   Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
> >
> > A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A
> statment is a lie
> > if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true
> at the time
> > e published it (or, in the case of an action, not to be
> effective), and it
> > was made with the intent to mislead. Merely quoting a statement
> does not
> > constitute making it for the purposes of this rule.  Any
> disclaimer,
> > conditional clause, or other qualifier attached to a statement
> constitutes
> > part of the statement for the purposes of this rule; the truth
> or falsity of
> > the whole is what is significant.
> >
> > The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal
> announcement of
> > intent is never a lie.
> >
> >   On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Aris Merchant
> >    wrote:
> >   > I submit the following proposal. Proposals are cheap, so I'm just
> >   > going to put this out and probably pend it tomorrow. This alters
> our
> >   > current "No Faking" Rule, changing it into an old-fashioned no
> lying
> >   > in public rule. My primary motivation for this is the rather
> vague
> >   > idea that it might lead to interesting gameplay, as it certainly
> did
> >   > in the past. Note that it only applies to the public fora, so
> you're
> >   > free to lie as much as you like on a-d, as I understand is
> >   > traditional. I borrowed most of the text, tweaking it to make it
> a
> >   > little less demanding.
> >   >
> >   > -Aris
> >   > ---
> >   > Title: Truthfulness
> >   > Adoption index: 1.0
> >   > Author: Aris
> >   > Co-authors:
> >   >
> >   > Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
> >   >
> >   >   A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A
> statment is a lie
> >   >   if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be
> true (or, in the
> >   >   case of an action, not to be effective), and it is made with
> the intent to
> >   >   mislead. Merely quoting a statement does not constitute making
> it for the
> >   >   purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer, conditional clause, or
> other
> >   >   qualifier attached to a statement constitutes part of the
> statement for
> >   >   the purposes of this rule; the truth or falsity of the whole
> is what is
> >   >   significant.
> >   >
> >   >   The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal
> announcement of
> >   >   intent is never a lie.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Truthfulness

[Kerim Aydin]

I've always disliked thought police rules, we've had them, but both
the burden of evidence and bad feeling make them a pain, and trying
to codify specific forbidden speech leaves loopholes where a scammer
can skirt the technical punishment while still being just as "bad".

Going along with our current punishment metaphor, and recent discussion of 
conduct, why not just implement an "unsportsmanlike conduct" card with some
general guidelines on what that is, maybe a higher bar for fingerpointing (I 
dunno, 
3 support) and/or letting judges figure out what qualifies...

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> Do statements on a-d count?
> Do statements that people publish elsewhere, outside of Agora, also count?
> 
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
>   I retract the proposal "Truthfulness", and submit the following.
> 
>   ---
>   Title: Truthfulness v2
>   Adoption index: 1.0
>   Author: Aris
>   Co-authors:
> 
>   Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
> 
>     A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A statment 
> is a lie
>     if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true at 
> the time
>     e published it (or, in the case of an action, not to be effective), 
> and it
>     was made with the intent to mislead. Merely quoting a statement does 
> not
>     constitute making it for the purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer,
>     conditional clause, or other qualifier attached to a statement 
> constitutes
>     part of the statement for the purposes of this rule; the truth or 
> falsity of
>     the whole is what is significant.
> 
>     The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal 
> announcement of
>     intent is never a lie.
> 
>   On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Aris Merchant
>    wrote:
>   > I submit the following proposal. Proposals are cheap, so I'm just
>   > going to put this out and probably pend it tomorrow. This alters our
>   > current "No Faking" Rule, changing it into an old-fashioned no lying
>   > in public rule. My primary motivation for this is the rather vague
>   > idea that it might lead to interesting gameplay, as it certainly did
>   > in the past. Note that it only applies to the public fora, so you're
>   > free to lie as much as you like on a-d, as I understand is
>   > traditional. I borrowed most of the text, tweaking it to make it a
>   > little less demanding.
>   >
>   > -Aris
>   > ---
>   > Title: Truthfulness
>   > Adoption index: 1.0
>   > Author: Aris
>   > Co-authors:
>   >
>   > Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
>   >
>   >   A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A 
> statment is a lie
>   >   if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true 
> (or, in the
>   >   case of an action, not to be effective), and it is made with the 
> intent to
>   >   mislead. Merely quoting a statement does not constitute making it 
> for the
>   >   purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer, conditional clause, or other
>   >   qualifier attached to a statement constitutes part of the statement 
> for
>   >   the purposes of this rule; the truth or falsity of the whole is 
> what is
>   >   significant.
>   >
>   >   The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal 
> announcement of
>   >   intent is never a lie.
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Truthfulness

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Did you read the entire message?
On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 09:43 Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> Sorry for the double post but I just got another idea:
>
> What if I made an Agency/Contract that let me be other people's
> talking-proxy? If they deliberately lie, they wouldn't be infringing "and
> it was made with the intent to mislead.", because I wouldn't have "made"
> the message with any intent, because I didn't make it at all, so I can't
> make it "with" something. So despite the rules "believing" that I did make
> it, that just assigns the tag that I made that message, but
> intent-with-message wouldn't be there at all, because I never produced an
> intent-with-message (although the original sender may definitely have their
> own intent-with-message in their heads, but luckily that kind of
> "thoughtcrime" wouldn't be attributed to me via Acting on Behalf).
>
> If this rule passes, and I'm correct in the technique I've just posted,
> I'm up for making a trade with another person where we are each other's
> talking proxy, so that we can never be hit by "no Faking" for whatever
> reason. And its free lol. It's like having free "Indulgencies" back in the
> days of Blots.
>
> That aside, is "to intend" something performable via agency? It's an
> action, and it would be very ruleset relevant if this "no faking" passes,
> because then I could reroute all of my intents to someone where those
> intents mean nothing because they're mismatched with actions which have
> nothing to do with them (assuming that thoughts without action based on
> those thoughts aren't criminal, just thoughts).
>
> This goes a bit into philosophical territory so I'll lounge on it in a-d
> for a good while before trying it for real, would my idea be good/feasible
> in the first place.
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>
>> Do statements on a-d count?
>>
>> Do statements that people publish elsewhere, outside of Agora, also count?
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Aris Merchant <
>> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I retract the proposal "Truthfulness", and submit the following.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Title: Truthfulness v2
>>> Adoption index: 1.0
>>> Author: Aris
>>> Co-authors:
>>>
>>> Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
>>>
>>>   A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A statment
>>> is a lie
>>>   if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true at
>>> the time
>>>   e published it (or, in the case of an action, not to be effective),
>>> and it
>>>   was made with the intent to mislead. Merely quoting a statement does
>>> not
>>>   constitute making it for the purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer,
>>>   conditional clause, or other qualifier attached to a statement
>>> constitutes
>>>   part of the statement for the purposes of this rule; the truth or
>>> falsity of
>>>   the whole is what is significant.
>>>
>>>   The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal
>>> announcement of
>>>   intent is never a lie.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Aris Merchant
>>>  wrote:
>>> > I submit the following proposal. Proposals are cheap, so I'm just
>>> > going to put this out and probably pend it tomorrow. This alters our
>>> > current "No Faking" Rule, changing it into an old-fashioned no lying
>>> > in public rule. My primary motivation for this is the rather vague
>>> > idea that it might lead to interesting gameplay, as it certainly did
>>> > in the past. Note that it only applies to the public fora, so you're
>>> > free to lie as much as you like on a-d, as I understand is
>>> > traditional. I borrowed most of the text, tweaking it to make it a
>>> > little less demanding.
>>> >
>>> > -Aris
>>> > ---
>>> > Title: Truthfulness
>>> > Adoption index: 1.0
>>> > Author: Aris
>>> > Co-authors:
>>> >
>>> > Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
>>> >
>>> >   A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A statment
>>> is a lie
>>> >   if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true
>>> (or, in the
>>> >   case of an action, not to be effective), and it is made with the
>>> intent to
>>> >   mislead. Merely quoting a statement does not constitute making it
>>> for the
>>> >   purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer, conditional clause, or other
>>> >   qualifier attached to a statement constitutes part of the statement
>>> for
>>> >   the purposes of this rule; the truth or falsity of the whole is what
>>> is
>>> >   significant.
>>> >
>>> >   The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal
>>> announcement of
>>> >   intent is never a lie.
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Truthfulness

[Cuddle Beam]

Sorry for the double post but I just got another idea:

What if I made an Agency/Contract that let me be other people's
talking-proxy? If they deliberately lie, they wouldn't be infringing "and
it was made with the intent to mislead.", because I wouldn't have "made"
the message with any intent, because I didn't make it at all, so I can't
make it "with" something. So despite the rules "believing" that I did make
it, that just assigns the tag that I made that message, but
intent-with-message wouldn't be there at all, because I never produced an
intent-with-message (although the original sender may definitely have their
own intent-with-message in their heads, but luckily that kind of
"thoughtcrime" wouldn't be attributed to me via Acting on Behalf).

If this rule passes, and I'm correct in the technique I've just posted, I'm
up for making a trade with another person where we are each other's talking
proxy, so that we can never be hit by "no Faking" for whatever reason. And
its free lol. It's like having free "Indulgencies" back in the days of
Blots.

That aside, is "to intend" something performable via agency? It's an
action, and it would be very ruleset relevant if this "no faking" passes,
because then I could reroute all of my intents to someone where those
intents mean nothing because they're mismatched with actions which have
nothing to do with them (assuming that thoughts without action based on
those thoughts aren't criminal, just thoughts).

This goes a bit into philosophical territory so I'll lounge on it in a-d
for a good while before trying it for real, would my idea be good/feasible
in the first place.

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> Do statements on a-d count?
>
> Do statements that people publish elsewhere, outside of Agora, also count?
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Aris Merchant <
> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I retract the proposal "Truthfulness", and submit the following.
>>
>> ---
>> Title: Truthfulness v2
>> Adoption index: 1.0
>> Author: Aris
>> Co-authors:
>>
>> Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
>>
>>   A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A statment is
>> a lie
>>   if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true at the
>> time
>>   e published it (or, in the case of an action, not to be effective), and
>> it
>>   was made with the intent to mislead. Merely quoting a statement does not
>>   constitute making it for the purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer,
>>   conditional clause, or other qualifier attached to a statement
>> constitutes
>>   part of the statement for the purposes of this rule; the truth or
>> falsity of
>>   the whole is what is significant.
>>
>>   The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal
>> announcement of
>>   intent is never a lie.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Aris Merchant
>>  wrote:
>> > I submit the following proposal. Proposals are cheap, so I'm just
>> > going to put this out and probably pend it tomorrow. This alters our
>> > current "No Faking" Rule, changing it into an old-fashioned no lying
>> > in public rule. My primary motivation for this is the rather vague
>> > idea that it might lead to interesting gameplay, as it certainly did
>> > in the past. Note that it only applies to the public fora, so you're
>> > free to lie as much as you like on a-d, as I understand is
>> > traditional. I borrowed most of the text, tweaking it to make it a
>> > little less demanding.
>> >
>> > -Aris
>> > ---
>> > Title: Truthfulness
>> > Adoption index: 1.0
>> > Author: Aris
>> > Co-authors:
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 2471, "No Faking", by changing it to read in full:
>> >
>> >   A person SHALL NOT make a public statement that is a lie. A statment
>> is a lie
>> >   if its publisher either knew or believed it to be not to be true (or,
>> in the
>> >   case of an action, not to be effective), and it is made with the
>> intent to
>> >   mislead. Merely quoting a statement does not constitute making it for
>> the
>> >   purposes of this rule.  Any disclaimer, conditional clause, or other
>> >   qualifier attached to a statement constitutes part of the statement
>> for
>> >   the purposes of this rule; the truth or falsity of the whole is what
>> is
>> >   significant.
>> >
>> >   The previous provisions of this rule notwithstanding, a formal
>> announcement of
>> >   intent is never a lie.
>>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: SLR Ratification

[Aris Merchant]

Too much chance of there being a recent error we haven't caught yet. A
year is rather paranoid, and six months would probably work fine. Then
again, it doesn't hurt to be paranoid about things like this.

-Aris

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 12:13 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> Why aren't we ratifying the current one?
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
>> I submit the following proposal, and will pend it tomorrow right
>> before I distribute. For the reference all the new players, we used to
>> ratify the SLR every once in a while to make sure it doesn't get too
>> far from the way we understood it to be (or so I'm told, I wasn't here
>> yet then). Terrifyingly, we haven't done so since 1 May 2014, as
>> reported by the FLR. This is serious problem, as it means there has
>> been significant time for our perception of the rules to drift from
>> the platonic reality. I therefore propose that we ratify the SLR
>> published by G. almost exactly a year ago (we only ratify the SLR, so
>> that we don't ratify the rule histories, only their states).
>>
>> -Aris
>> ---
>> Title: SLR Ratification
>> Adoption index: 3.0
>> Author: Aris
>> Co-authors:
>>
>> Ratify the Short Logical Ruleset published on the 9th of September 2016,
>> available here [1].
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2016-September/011230.html
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Billy Mays Here

[VJ Rada]

yup sorry.

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 9, 2017, at 3:03 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>
>> "   An Agency is a document empowering persons to act on behalf of
>>another player. A player CAN establish an Agency With 24 hours
>>Notice, and thereby become its Director, by specifying the
>>properties of the new Agency, provided e has not established
>>any other Agency that day:"
>>
>> By announcement
>
> “With 24 hours Notice” is sufficient. See rule 1728.
>
> -o
>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Billy Mays Here

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 3:03 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> "   An Agency is a document empowering persons to act on behalf of
>another player. A player CAN establish an Agency With 24 hours
>Notice, and thereby become its Director, by specifying the
>properties of the new Agency, provided e has not established
>any other Agency that day:"
> 
> By announcement

“With 24 hours Notice” is sufficient. See rule 1728.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Restraining Bolt

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:


I don't think this one is needed, because the definition of distribution
resolves to an Agoran decision initiation, described as a publishing action
elsewhere. In fact adding "by announcement" might do more harm than good.


It shouldn't do any harm as far as I'm concerned. I distribute
proposals like this:

"I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
quorum is 3.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
also a valid vote)."

That phrasing works fine either way.


My worry was that it could allow "by announcement" to be used _instead_ of 
publishing all the required information. But I see rule 103 will take 
precedence anyway.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Restraining Bolt

[VJ Rada]

Previous agency reports self-ratified right? So we're all good?

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 9, 2017, at 2:08 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>>
>>> Can you change the MAYs in agencies and Rewards to by announcement so
>>> that by adopting yours in conjunction w/ mine and ors, they're fixed?
>>
>> I plan to vote against your proposal, if it reaches that point. The Mother, 
>> May I? framework is so deeply-embedded in the rules that I would be very 
>> uncomfortable making changes to it in the middle of a crisis driven by 
>> exactly misapplication of that framework. While I believe your intentions 
>> are good, and while I have a deep appreciation for the fact that you did 
>> significant diligence to see what your change could reasonably be expected 
>> to affect, now’s not the time to modify that rule.
>>
>> I would strongly prefer to fix the applications of that framework, and am 
>> attempting to do so. With that in mind, yes, I can fix the affected MAYs in 
>> agencies and in rewards. They’re definitely broken as they stand - I only 
>> disagree on how to fix them, not on whether they need to be fixed.
>
> I, for one, would definitely appreciate it if you could add this. I
> also tend to agree, although I might favor a weaker version of the
> addition that had more room for common sense interpretation.
>
> -Aris



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Restraining Bolt

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 11:15 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>
>>{{{
>>In a timely fashion after the start of June 1 of each year, the
>>Herald SHALL propose a set of Regulations governing a Birthday
>>Tournament for that year; the Herald CAN also delegate the
>>responsibility for creating or running the tournament to
>>another player, with that player's consent, by announcement.
>>}}}
>
>
> Misses the initial SHALL (it is clear from the rest of the rule that it's
> not speaking about making a Proposal).
>
>>Amend rule 1607 ("Distribution") by replacing the third paragraph
>>with:
>>
>>{{{
>>The Promotor CAN distribute a proposal which is in the Proposal
>>Pool at any time, by announcement. The Promotor SHALL NOT
>>distribute proposals which are not pending.
>>}}}
>
>
> I don't think this one is needed, because the definition of distribution
> resolves to an Agoran decision initiation, described as a publishing action
> elsewhere. In fact adding "by announcement" might do more harm than good.

It shouldn't do any harm as far as I'm concerned. I distribute
proposals like this:

"I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
quorum is 3.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
also a valid vote)."

That phrasing works fine either way.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Restraining Bolt

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 9, 2017, at 2:08 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>
>> Can you change the MAYs in agencies and Rewards to by announcement so
>> that by adopting yours in conjunction w/ mine and ors, they're fixed?
>
> I plan to vote against your proposal, if it reaches that point. The Mother, 
> May I? framework is so deeply-embedded in the rules that I would be very 
> uncomfortable making changes to it in the middle of a crisis driven by 
> exactly misapplication of that framework. While I believe your intentions are 
> good, and while I have a deep appreciation for the fact that you did 
> significant diligence to see what your change could reasonably be expected to 
> affect, now’s not the time to modify that rule.
>
> I would strongly prefer to fix the applications of that framework, and am 
> attempting to do so. With that in mind, yes, I can fix the affected MAYs in 
> agencies and in rewards. They’re definitely broken as they stand - I only 
> disagree on how to fix them, not on whether they need to be fixed.

I, for one, would definitely appreciate it if you could add this. I
also tend to agree, although I might favor a weaker version of the
addition that had more room for common sense interpretation.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Restraining Bolt

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 2:08 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> Can you change the MAYs in agencies and Rewards to by announcement so
> that by adopting yours in conjunction w/ mine and ors, they're fixed?

I plan to vote against your proposal, if it reaches that point. The Mother, May 
I? framework is so deeply-embedded in the rules that I would be very 
uncomfortable making changes to it in the middle of a crisis driven by exactly 
misapplication of that framework. While I believe your intentions are good, and 
while I have a deep appreciation for the fact that you did significant 
diligence to see what your change could reasonably be expected to affect, now’s 
not the time to modify that rule.

I would strongly prefer to fix the applications of that framework, and am 
attempting to do so. With that in mind, yes, I can fix the affected MAYs in 
agencies and in rewards. They’re definitely broken as they stand - I only 
disagree on how to fix them, not on whether they need to be fixed.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:


Rule 2431 doesn't seem to restrict where specifications can be made.


"With Agoran Consent" is sufficient to restrict this to being done via 
the public fora, because rule 1728 specifies that an action with that 
constraint can be done by announcement (“thereby allows em to perform 
the action by announcement if…”).


I mean the specification by a competing Player in the second paragraph, 
there's no Consent on that.



Rule 2495 is unclear on what needs to be public.


Less so than you’d think, by the same coin, but there are some unbound 
CANs here.


I guess it's just the first paragraph (applies to a SHALL too).

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 1:39 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> 
>> Nope the text for CAN is this: "
>> 
>> CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
>> all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
>> that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.
> 
> Hm so searching for CAN...
> 
> Rule 2431 doesn't seem to restrict where specifications can be made.

"With Agoran Consent" is sufficient to restrict this to being done via the 
public fora, because rule 1728 specifies that an action with that constraint 
can be done by announcement (“thereby allows em to perform the action by 
announcement if…”).

> Rule 103 doesn't seem to say how the Prime Minister can appoint a Speaker.
> 
> Rule 2451 doesn't require announcement of Cabinet Orders themselves, nor for 
> assigning emself as judge (the other two options have publishing requirements 
> elsewhere).
> 
> Rule 2495 is unclear on what needs to be public.

Less so than you’d think, by the same coin, but there are some unbound CANs 
here.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Aris Merchant]

There's something that might maybe possibly help if this ever needs to
be fixed by judicial fiat:

"Agora is a game of Nomic, wherein Persons, acting in accordance with
the Rules, communicate their game Actions and/or results of these
actions via Fora in order to play the game.  The game may be won, but
the game never ends." (Rule 101)

It makes it just plausible that actions other than through the Fora
don't work. Not very plausible though, partly because of the "results
of these actions" bit.

-Aris




On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 10:46 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> ninja'd
>
> On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>>
>>> Nope the text for CAN is this: "
>>>
>>> CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
>>> all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
>>> that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.
>>
>>
>> Hm so searching for CAN...
>>
>> Rule 2431 doesn't seem to restrict where specifications can be made.
>>
>> Rule 103 doesn't seem to say how the Prime Minister can appoint a Speaker.
>>
>> Rule 2451 doesn't require announcement of Cabinet Orders themselves, nor for
>> assigning emself as judge (the other two options have publishing
>> requirements elsewhere).
>>
>> Rule 2495 is unclear on what needs to be public.
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Ørjan.
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


ninja'd


*MWAHAHAHA*

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


"Using existing terminology (I hope correctly), an action which CAN be
performed, if the rules impose no other constraints, can be done in
any way at all"

Here's a list (it's quite short) of CANs w/out "by announcement", "w/o
objection" or anything similar.
"The Promotor CAN distribute a proposal which is in the Proposal Pool
at any time."


This is fine because distribution is defined more precisely elsewhere.


"A player CAN expedite a proposal whose adoption index is at most 1.5,
in a message containing the character string "[Expedition]" in the
subject line,"


I think this is also fine, assuming the message has to be the same in 
which e performs the listed option.



"then the Prime Minister CAN and SHALL, once and in a timely fashion,
appoint a Laureled player to the office of Speaker."
"Once per week and except as otherwise forbidden by this rule, the
current Prime Minister CAN issue a Cabinet Order and perform the
action(s) authorized by that Order."


Yep, got those too.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[VJ Rada]

ninja'd

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>
>> Nope the text for CAN is this: "
>>
>> CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
>> all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
>> that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.
>
>
> Hm so searching for CAN...
>
> Rule 2431 doesn't seem to restrict where specifications can be made.
>
> Rule 103 doesn't seem to say how the Prime Minister can appoint a Speaker.
>
> Rule 2451 doesn't require announcement of Cabinet Orders themselves, nor for
> assigning emself as judge (the other two options have publishing
> requirements elsewhere).
>
> Rule 2495 is unclear on what needs to be public.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[VJ Rada]

"Using existing terminology (I hope correctly), an action which CAN be
performed, if the rules impose no other constraints, can be done in
any way at all"

Here's a list (it's quite short) of CANs w/out "by announcement", "w/o
objection" or anything similar.
"The Promotor CAN distribute a proposal which is in the Proposal Pool
at any time."
"A player CAN expedite a proposal whose adoption index is at most 1.5,
in a message containing the character string "[Expedition]" in the
subject line,"
"then the Prime Minister CAN and SHALL, once and in a timely fashion,
appoint a Laureled player to the office of Speaker."
"Once per week and except as otherwise forbidden by this rule, the
current Prime Minister CAN issue a Cabinet Order and perform the
action(s) authorized by that Order."


On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 9, 2017, at 1:04 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>
>> Nope the text for CAN is this: "
>>
>> CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
>> all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
>> that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.
>
> What the esteemed G. is saying is that enabling an action, without 
> restriction, is dangerous, and applying that to every single place in the 
> rules where MAY is present needs much more thorough review.
>
> Using existing terminology (I hope correctly), an action which CAN be 
> performed, if the rules impose no other constraints, can be done in any way 
> at all - including a-d posts, private messages, or even in the secrecy of 
> ones’ own head. An action which CAN be performed by announcement is more 
> limited, and is only successful if done via a public forum (r. 478, “Fora”).
>
> Existing rules that use CAN are, generally, fairly careful of that 
> distinction. Rules that don’t use CAN aren’t. Simply tacking “and attempts 
> are successful” onto MAY means that rules such as r. 2467 would permit 
> unpublished, secret attempts to perform the action to succeed, making the 
> game state in large part unknowable.
>
> -o
>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


Nope the text for CAN is this: "

CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.


Hm so searching for CAN...

Rule 2431 doesn't seem to restrict where specifications can be made.

Rule 103 doesn't seem to say how the Prime Minister can appoint a Speaker.

Rule 2451 doesn't require announcement of Cabinet Orders themselves, nor 
for assigning emself as judge (the other two options have publishing 
requirements elsewhere).


Rule 2495 is unclear on what needs to be public.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 1:04 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> Nope the text for CAN is this: "
> 
> CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
> all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
> that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.

What the esteemed G. is saying is that enabling an action, without restriction, 
is dangerous, and applying that to every single place in the rules where MAY is 
present needs much more thorough review.

Using existing terminology (I hope correctly), an action which CAN be 
performed, if the rules impose no other constraints, can be done in any way at 
all - including a-d posts, private messages, or even in the secrecy of ones’ 
own head. An action which CAN be performed by announcement is more limited, and 
is only successful if done via a public forum (r. 478, “Fora”).

Existing rules that use CAN are, generally, fairly careful of that distinction. 
Rules that don’t use CAN aren’t. Simply tacking “and attempts are successful” 
onto MAY means that rules such as r. 2467 would permit unpublished, secret 
attempts to perform the action to succeed, making the game state in large part 
unknowable.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[Kerim Aydin]

Sorry, I got the default reversed, you're right.  Your language works
because of this:
   Restricted Actions CAN only be performed as described by the
   Rules.  
and the "be performed as described" means you have to describe how its 
done for it to be allowable (i.e. the rules have to describe that it
is to be performed "by announcement" or "without Objection" or whatever
method is to be used).  So a CAN on its own can't be done any way -
it can be done no way.

Anyway, while your langauge works and may convenient to add, that's
why it has nothing to do with the recent breakage that was due to the
lack of a "by announcement", not the question of whether MAY => CAN.

Or were you just doing this for its own sake, nothing to do with the
breakage?

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> Nope the text for CAN is this: "
> 
> CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
> all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
> that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.
> 
> On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> > No.  No no no no no.  No.
> >
> > CAN isn't successful either, UNLESS THERE'S A BY ANNOUNCEMENT.
> >
> > The problem ISN'T SHALL and CAN.  It's the missing "by announcement".
> > That's what the CFJs say.
> >
> > You've just said "if it says MAY, attempts to do it *are successful*.
> > Even if done in Discussion.  Even if done in private.  Even if done
> > in your head.  In a high-level definition.
> >
> > On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> >> Title: Mother, May I?
> >> AI: 3
> >> Amend rule 2152 by replacing "MAY: Performing the described action
> >> does not violate the rules." with "MAY: Performing the described
> >> action does not violate the rules and attempts to perform the
> >> described action are successful"
> >>
> >> I submit and pend the above paying 1 shiny.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> From V.J Rada
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Mother, Can I?

[VJ Rada]

Nope the text for CAN is this: "

CAN: Attempts to perform the described action are successful.". That's
all. So this is just mirroring that. If you want to make an argument
that you can do anything with a CAN in private, sure.

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> No.  No no no no no.  No.
>
> CAN isn't successful either, UNLESS THERE'S A BY ANNOUNCEMENT.
>
> The problem ISN'T SHALL and CAN.  It's the missing "by announcement".
> That's what the CFJs say.
>
> You've just said "if it says MAY, attempts to do it *are successful*.
> Even if done in Discussion.  Even if done in private.  Even if done
> in your head.  In a high-level definition.
>
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>> Title: Mother, May I?
>> AI: 3
>> Amend rule 2152 by replacing "MAY: Performing the described action
>> does not violate the rules." with "MAY: Performing the described
>> action does not violate the rules and attempts to perform the
>> described action are successful"
>>
>> I submit and pend the above paying 1 shiny.
>>
>>
>> --
>> From V.J Rada
>>
>
>



-- 
>From V.J Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Stamp CAN patches

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> So. You paid the game, but the game itself is made up all of our actions, 
> including the payment you just did. So there's a part of your payment that 
> paid itself.

[...]

> Treating the game itself as an abstract entity has a fairly long history in 
> Agora. Have a look at the definition of “singleton” switches, and associated
> CFJs, too.

While it's no problem or anything, I've always mentally pictured "Agora the
owning entity" as the bank in Monopoly or something, distinct from "Agora the
gamestate".

So thinking of it as gamestate, "the state of having been transferred a shiny
has been transferred a shiny" kind of makes be go whoa, dude.

Thanks for that.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Stamp CAN patches

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 8:19 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> >I pay Agora 1 sh. to pend this proposal.
> 
> Philosophical hocus pocus but you have pretty much paid the action of 
> performing that very payment itself (or at least part of the payment is), 
> because Agora itself is: "a game of Nomic, wherein Persons, acting in 
> accordance with the Rules, communicate their game Actions and/or results of 
> these actions via Fora  in order to 
> play the game."
> 
> So. You paid the game, but the game itself is made up all of our actions, 
> including the payment you just did. So there's a part of your payment that 
> paid itself.

This philosophical conundrum is directly addressed in the rule titled “Assets.” 
Payment is the transfer of an asset from one owner to another, and Agora, in 
the abstract, is defined as being able to own assets (as well as being able to 
own Shinies specifically). We could just as easily define a separate legal 
fiction to be the fallback owner for assets.

Treating the game itself as an abstract entity has a fairly long history in 
Agora. Have a look at the definition of “singleton” switches, and associated 
CFJs, too.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Stamp CAN patches

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:42 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 4:40 PM Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
> I submit the following proposal, and pay Agora 1 sh. to pend it.
> 
> Title: Stamp CAN Patch
> Author: o
> Co-Authors: V.J Rada, Aris, ais523
> AI: 1.0
> 
> {{{
> Amend rule 2498 ("Economic Wins") by replacing its text, in full,
> with:
> 
> {{{
> Stamps are an asset. The Secretary is the recordkeepor of Stamps.
> 
> The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
> 
> Once per month, a player CAN, by announcement, create a stamp
> by transferring the Stamp Value, in shinies, to Agora.
> 
> If Agora owns at least as many Shinies as the current Stamp
> Value, a player CAN, by announcement, destroy a Stamp e owns to
> cause Agora to transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to emself.
> 
> If a player owns Stamps created by at least 10 different
> players, e CAN destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players
> by announcement to win the game.
> 
> The way I read this, e CAN destroy stamps owned by any player if e has at 
> least 10 emself. I don't think that's what you were going for.

Sorry, nichdel, you’re rumbled.

-o




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Float On

[Gaelan Steele]

We all have to determine current shiny balances (more recent than the last 
report) every once and a while. Making that more painful than necessary gets a 
thumbs down from me.

Gaelan
> On Sep 4, 2017, at 9:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> On Sep 4, 2017, at 5:28 PM, Kerim Aydin  > wrote:
> 
>> Random grab, an old version:
>> 
>> Rule 1941/3 (Power=1)
>> Fees
>> 
>>  If the Rules associate a non-negative cost, price, charge, or
>>  fee with an action, that action is a fee-based action.  If the
>>  specified cost is not an integer, the actual fee is the next
>>  highest integer.
>> 
>>  To perform a fee-based action, a Player (the Actor) who is
>>  otherwise permitted to perform the action must announce that e
>>  is performing the action and announce that there is a fee for
>>  that action.  Upon said announcement, the action is performed,
>>  the Actor's kudos are decreased by the fee.
>> 
>>  [Need to add a 0 trap for over-spending, the old one had 0-trap
>>   mechanics that wouldn't work anymore]
> 
> Given that all of the zero-trap mechanics are already covered through the 
> definitions of assets and the existing “pay” action, I’m not clear on what 
> benefit a more sophisticated definition of “spend” would have over making it 
> synonymous with “pay Agora”. It’s neat to see, though.
> 
>> [Note, in this version, you never have to say what the fee is, you just
>> say "I do X by paying a fee" and the recordkeepor figures out what you
>> paid].
> 
> I actually don’t mind this, so long as the fee schedule is somewhere easily 
> published. Since I’m the recordkeepor for Shinies anyways and am about to be 
> responsible for publishing those facts, this gets a thumbs-up from me.
> 
> -o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Float On

[Gaelan Steele]

And that failed purchases don’t let Agora keep your shinies. 

Gaelan

> On Sep 4, 2017, at 5:39 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 2017-09-04 at 17:24 -0700, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> I didn’t think “spend” was unclear, exactly, since the rules define
>> “pay”:
> 
> My problem with the existing rules that use spending isn't that it's
> unclear what the effect of spending would be, but that it's unclear
> what the mechanism for spending is. For example, if you pay Agora
> shinies for an unrelated reason, do you also get all the rewards of
> spending those shinies defined elsewhere in the ruleset?
> 
> It needs to be clear that the shinies must be spent intentionally, with
> a specific purpose in mind, and can't simultaneously be used for someth
> ing else.
> 
> -- 
> ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Float On

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 4, 2017, at 5:28 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

> Random grab, an old version:
> 
> Rule 1941/3 (Power=1)
> Fees
> 
>   If the Rules associate a non-negative cost, price, charge, or
>   fee with an action, that action is a fee-based action.  If the
>   specified cost is not an integer, the actual fee is the next
>   highest integer.
> 
>   To perform a fee-based action, a Player (the Actor) who is
>   otherwise permitted to perform the action must announce that e
>   is performing the action and announce that there is a fee for
>   that action.  Upon said announcement, the action is performed,
>   the Actor's kudos are decreased by the fee.
> 
>   [Need to add a 0 trap for over-spending, the old one had 0-trap
>mechanics that wouldn't work anymore]

Given that all of the zero-trap mechanics are already covered through the 
definitions of assets and the existing “pay” action, I’m not clear on what 
benefit a more sophisticated definition of “spend” would have over making it 
synonymous with “pay Agora”. It’s neat to see, though.

> [Note, in this version, you never have to say what the fee is, you just
> say "I do X by paying a fee" and the recordkeepor figures out what you
> paid].

I actually don’t mind this, so long as the fee schedule is somewhere easily 
published. Since I’m the recordkeepor for Shinies anyways and am about to be 
responsible for publishing those facts, this gets a thumbs-up from me.

-o



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