Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
regalma1;412781 Wrote: It would be interesting if they came up a with a statistically significant negative result, say 20%, what would that mean? I've never seen that. That would happen every so often due to pure chance. When a statistically significant result happens (say for a subset of the listeners) further testing should be carried out to determine whether it's chance or not. I don't myself know of a reason other than chance that would explain a significant negative result like that. (Otherwise it would mean the listener identifying X but selecting the opposite of its identity. Maybe a dyslexia-type behaviour might explain it but that sounds really unlikely.) Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
The whole objectivist/subjectivist debate is really rather simple. Listening to music whether live or over a hifi system is a subjective pursuit.. It can't be objective by definition. Trying to apply objective criteria to a purely subjective activity is pointless, and ultimately unsatisfying. It's no different than trying to apply subjective parameters to an objective subject. 2+2 is always 4.. That is not subjective. But how I perceive the music playing in my room, at a show, in a car or in my head is subjective, it can not be otherwise. If I change a cable or move my speakers or rip in lossless and I hear a difference then it exists, to me. No one can deny that since it is impossible for it to be proved otherwise. My audio system sounds great to me. If you come and listen to my system and it does not sound great to you, does that make my system sound any less great to me, of course not, and that I think it sounds good, and you dont doesnt make your perception any less valid also. -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ErikM;412706 Wrote: The whole objectivist/subjectivist debate is really rather simple. Listening to music whether live or over a hifi system is a subjective pursuit.. It can't be objective by definition. Trying to apply objective criteria to a purely subjective activity is pointless, and ultimately unsatisfying. It's no different than trying to apply subjective parameters to an objective subject. 2+2 is always 4.. That is not subjective. But how I perceive the music playing in my room, at a show, in a car or in my head is subjective, it can not be otherwise. If I change a cable or move my speakers or rip in lossless and I hear a difference then it exists, to me. No one can deny that since it is impossible for it to be proved otherwise. My audio system sounds great to me. If you come and listen to my system and it does not sound great to you, does that make my system sound any less great to me, of course not, and that I think it sounds good, and you don#8217;t doesn#8217;t make your perception any less valid also. Blind AB (not discussing ABX) tests of audio, wine, chocolate tea etc are about reaching subjective conclusions! That is to say, what one may decide is better another may decide is worse. It is dispassionate subjectivity. The blind AB test removes the placebo effect and nothing else: there remains no right answer. The conclusion of a blind AB test is personal and means nothing to others with different tastes. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Most blind tests I have seen are tests of whether the listeners can hear a difference between setups. Run each setup enough so the listeners are familiar with it then run two setups in a random order and ask the listeners to identify which one is playing. If they their ability to identify the setups is around 50% within statistical signifcant then it is just chance. If they can't tell the difference then should indicate that there is no discernable difference. There shouldn't be any subjectivity in that. It would be interesting if they came up a with a statistically significant negative result, say 20%, what would that mean? I've never seen that. -- regalma1 regalma1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6658 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
MrSinatra;412178 Wrote: why is finding a middle ground necessary? sometimes, there is a right and a wrong. Do you ever have days of self-doubt? I'm having one today - doubting whether I am capable of writing something so that other people actually understand what I'm thinking. So I'm now going to make some very bold statements to try and make myself clear. Bear in mind that in reality I'm only contemplating the following possibilities, but I make them as bold statements to try and get across what I'm thinking might be the case... I am NOT trying to find a middle ground. YES, there is a right and a wrong. And the point of my original posting is to suggest that - in the context of making choices between audio components for use in the home - BOTH the hard-objectivists and the hard-subjectivists are WRONG. I believe that double-blind tests often show that audio components which sound different in a sighted comparison in fact make the same noise. And I believe that subjectivists who think the difference they hear between those components is because they make a different noise are WRONG. In the context of listening to music in the home, whether two components make the same noise is not the only thing that affects how they are actually perceived to sound. So using blind testing as the sole auditory criteria for choosing an audio component, as championed by the hard-objectivists, is WRONG. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
i believe i understand what you are saying, i just don't see the importance of the last sentence. first off, most people don't buy both and then pick one at home after trying them both there, so it never really happens like that. secondly, even if they did do that, and even if they allowed themselves to think they heard a difference simply b/c they aren't blind to the airchain, doesn't mean its in fact, true. i know, i know, perception is reality, but my point is they can't prove it. the standard should be higher than simply what makes them happy or what they feel. the standard should be what can they prove. let me give you an example... at a certain point kbps-wise, almost everyone can reliably tell the difference betwee a low bitrate mp3, and a CD, right? they could do this both if they SAW the source, and if they were BLIND to it. however, at a certain point, almost no one can do that, UNLESS they SEE the source. now, a small fraction of people may be able to, but i would argue this small fraction only could with near perfect equipment and environment, neither of which often exist at home. so yes, some people will perceive things at home based on extraneous criteria that isn't truly relevant, but that doesn't make it valid. their perceptions are ONLY valid (to anyone else) if they can RELIABLY PROVE IT in a blind situation. -- MrSinatra www.lion-radio.org using: sb2 (my home) / sbr (parent's home) / sbc (my home) - w/sc 7.3.3b - win xp pro sp3 ie8 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid - d-link dir-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj wrote: You're right, if nothing short of a full blown ABX will make you happy then don't spend the money. However, just for the record, what does your audio system consist of right now? Are you using the analog outputs of the SBR or the digital outputs into an external DAC or receiver? There are several other ways to improve the sound of your existing audio system besides upgrading to a Transporter and many of them may cost less than a Transporter. indeed, and probably it's a bad example in my case. I'm takign the analogue output of the SBR into Quad pre/power amps, and thence to Quad bookshelf speakers, which is the best I can fit in my crowded office, which itself doesn't have ideal acoustics. no doubt. I'm also considering getting a headphone amp and some nice cans, perhaps Beyer. cheers, c. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cdmackay;412477 Wrote: ralphpnj wrote: You're right, if nothing short of a full blown ABX will make you happy then don't spend the money. However, just for the record, what does your audio system consist of right now? Are you using the analog outputs of the SBR or the digital outputs into an external DAC or receiver? There are several other ways to improve the sound of your existing audio system besides upgrading to a Transporter and many of them may cost less than a Transporter. indeed, and probably it's a bad example in my case. I'm takign the analogue output of the SBR into Quad pre/power amps, and thence to Quad bookshelf speakers, which is the best I can fit in my crowded office, which itself doesn't have ideal acoustics. no doubt. I'm also considering getting a headphone amp and some nice cans, perhaps Beyer. cheers, c. Which Quad pre/power? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;412126 Wrote: Teus de Jong wrote: discussion is that I'm afraid a lot of people won't know the difference between the sound of a real Steinway and the sometimes totally distorted version some amplifiers make of them. When my daughter was trying to get into music schools (trumpet), we recorded her playing at the home of a professional accompanist. This woman was a music professor at a nearby university, and played all the usual places (Kennedy Center, etc.). She had a full size grand piano in her living room. It wasn't a Steinway, I forget, maybe a Bösendorfer. I'll never forget the sound of her playing with me sitting on the sofa. Amazing. And no stereo that I've ever heard has replicated it. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ A few weeks ago classical guitarist and grammy winner David Russel played a concert here, he records for Telarc. He had a rare free night on his tour the next day so he and his wife came over for dinner. He brought his latest CD to give me. I ripped it and played it through the TPRowlandWatt/Puppy rig. It sounded great. However when we started trying out my guitars (I had just bought a new one) there was no comparison between live and the stereo. Someone would have to be deaf not to hear the difference. And this is just guitar. BTW, His recordings , great as they are, just don't capture the magic of his sound. We had a blast trying out guitars and some very good wine :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cdmackay;412477 Wrote: indeed, and probably it's a bad example in my case. I'm takign the analogue output of the SBR into Quad pre/power amps, and thence to Quad bookshelf speakers, which is the best I can fit in my crowded office, which itself doesn't have ideal acoustics. no doubt. I'm also considering getting a headphone amp and some nice cans, perhaps Beyer. cheers, c. You might want to consider one the combination headphone amp and DAC units that way you can run the digital output from the SBR into the unit and use it as either a headphone amp or a DAC/preamp. Kills two birds with one stone and should give you a nice upgrade to the sound of the SBR's internal DAC. It's worth looking into and I'm sure that some of the people around here can give you some recommendations to get you started. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
tomjtx;412537 Wrote: A few weeks ago classical guitarist and grammy winner David Russel played a concert here, he records for Telarc. He had a rare free night on his tour the next day so he and his wife came over for dinner. He brought his latest CD to give me. I ripped it and played it through the TPRowlandWatt/Puppy rig. It sounded great. However when we started trying out my guitars (I had just bought a new one) there was no comparison between live and the stereo. Someone would have to be deaf not to hear the difference. And this is just guitar. BTW, His recordings , great as they are, just don't capture the magic of his sound. We had a blast trying out guitars and some very good wine :-) In my humble opinion, audiophiles should spend the amazing amounts they dedicate to their systems to go listen to live music more; the debate about what is better would be over. After a certain point there is no added value between canned spam and canned spam on a silver platter. There is a certain consumerist escapist tendency in audiophile extremism. The perfect system will set you free? Some sort of Nirvana? It is without a doubt an endless chase. Some of the sytstems are quite beautiful, and that adds a certain decorative value. -- Mongo Mongo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6329 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;412181 Wrote: Nonreality wrote: And while we are on the subject, how much are sung in cables? Does it make a difference as to genre of the music sung into the cables? Must you break them in with guitar rock to make them match to hair bands? Should we plan on switching cables when we go from full symphonies to chamber groups? -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ That's probably why I'm having trouble catching on to Jazz. My cables were all sung into rock! -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Phil Leigh wrote: I'm takign the analogue output of the SBR into Quad pre/power amps, and thence to Quad bookshelf speakers, which is the best I can fit in my crowded office, which itself doesn't have ideal acoustics. no doubt. I'm also considering getting a headphone amp and some nice cans, perhaps Beyer. Which Quad pre/power? 34/606, into 21L speakers. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj wrote: You might want to consider one the combination headphone amp and DAC interesting, thanks... ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;411583 Wrote: have you ever gone to a concert venue, a symphony hall? I never said that music smells, but you involve all your senses in a musical experience... Yep, plenty thanks, I have 3 gigs/concerts in 1 week over Easter for starters. Why would I want the smell of stale alcohol in my living room? I'm sorry but I disagree with you, I love sitting in complete darkness listening to music if I'm relaxing but that same music still sounds great when I'm walking to work listening to it on my Westone UM-2s and iPhone. Don't get me wrong live music is fantastic but it has absolutely nothing to do with listening to it on a stereo for me. -- probedb Paul. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;411973 Wrote: ... If classical includes soloist violins, or small chamber groups, then it can be a good selection for testing. The best audio tracks to test are things like acoustic guitar with one singer, or bluegrass. Or some of Patricia Barber's jazz. If you want to test gear, you need signal that you can tell on, first. Exactly. One of the reasons I don't feel comfortable with this whole discussion is that I'm afraid a lot of people won't know the difference between the sound of a real Steinway and the sometimes totally distorted version some amplifiers make of them. The same applies to a good acoustic guitar, like a record of Bach or Barrios by John Williams. Does this make me a subjectivist? I don't think so. The first thing I do when listening to a new amplifier is put in a disc with a simple piano tune (I mostly use Glenn Gould's 1981 recording of the Goldberg variations -- in modern standards not an impeccable recording, but not a bad one either). It's amazing how many (also expensive and especially Class D) amplifiers can be dismissed after only a few notes. Amps that cannot reproduce the sound of a piano note (attack, sustain and decay) decently are out for me. I don't need a DBT for that. And God forbid that a test with 1000 arbitrary people should decide this for me. Which makes for another confusing thing: is the double blind test so objective? IMO, they're at most 'collectively subjective'. Wouldn't it be possible to make an objective test that compares a simple piano tone on a real Steinway and a reproduction via an amp? Just compare the produced waveforms? In this whole discussion, no one mentioned that kind of objective tests, so don't they exist? To illustrate the difference between this type of 'objective' criterium and a 'collective subjective' one, there's a nice anecdote. When reviewing a book on the sociology of leisure time spending(!), the reviewer said that what the author did was comparable to asking people if the light went on when they turned the switch. (And yes, in 99,9% of the cases the light went on.) So, the arguments objectivists bring (double blind testing, etc.) are maybe not that objective. Of course, taking the resemblance of a 'real' instrument with the reproduced one as a criterium is also 'subjective' for many (like Pat says: what's the difference between the distorted guitar on stage and the one on disc and why shouldn't I prefer the one on disc). That's one of the things that make these discussions so hopelessly confusing. And of course there is nothing against personal idiosyncrasies here. The same Glenn Gould did not like bass tones, so when playing his own recordings, he turned the bass down and the treble up. But at least he knew that the recording should not represent his personal idiosyncrasy but should reproduce the Steinway as accurately as possible. Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
thanks CatBus, Better than that--I can point you to the samples themselves. But first--you weren't clear which you wanted...do you want the 320k MP3 that's indistinguishable from RedBook or the 320k MP3 that's easily distinguished from RedBook. It's a kinda important difference. Looks like I misunderstood; I got the wrong impression that there were claims that some people could routinely tell the difference between 320k MP3, and lossless, for a random selection of tracks. That was what I was really struggling to believe. That one can find - or create - pathological tracks doesn't surprise me at all. As you say, the important question is how much of your collection is impacted by this. For me, it's probably moot, as I struggle to tell the difference between even sub-200k MP3 and lossless. cheers, calum. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cdmackay;412056 Wrote: Looks like I misunderstood; I got the wrong impression that there were claims that some people could routinely tell the difference between 320k MP3, and lossless, for a random selection of tracks. The most genteel way I can put it is that, to my knowledge, the world is still waiting for this to be demonstrated in a reputable test. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Teus de Jong;412024 Wrote: The first thing I do when listening to a new amplifier is put in a disc with a simple piano tune (I mostly use Glenn Gould's 1981 recording of the Goldberg variations -- in modern standards not an impeccable recording, but not a bad one either). It's amazing how many (also expensive and especially Class D) amplifiers can be dismissed after only a few notes. Your point is well taken standing on its own. But in the context of The Blind Testing Controversy it doesn't explain why blind tests don't work. It sounds like you're saying blind tests are a waste of time because you can hear the problems sighted. The whole point is that what you hear sighted might be influenced by the placebo effect. In my eyes, your post shows how blind tests can help clarify things. What do I mean? I'm referring to your comment about Class D amplifiers. Whether it's justified or not is irrelevant to my point, which is that you have expectations about them now. Perhaps such amplifiers would get better marks from you if you didn't know their identity when listening. Then again, perhaps not. There would be only one way to find out... :) Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Teus de Jong wrote: discussion is that I'm afraid a lot of people won't know the difference between the sound of a real Steinway and the sometimes totally distorted version some amplifiers make of them. When my daughter was trying to get into music schools (trumpet), we recorded her playing at the home of a professional accompanist. This woman was a music professor at a nearby university, and played all the usual places (Kennedy Center, etc.). She had a full size grand piano in her living room. It wasn't a Steinway, I forget, maybe a Bösendorfer. I'll never forget the sound of her playing with me sitting on the sofa. Amazing. And no stereo that I've ever heard has replicated it. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
john4456;411418 Wrote: Isn't the great triumph of blind testing that it enables advertisers to claim that 128kbs mp3 is cd quality ? It's about the same as small stones enhancing your stereo system. And while we are on the subject, how much are sung in cables? -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;411973 Wrote: Nonreality wrote: The general consensus seems to be that rock and pop at the higher bit rates are tough for almost anyone to tell a difference while classical is not the best candidate for mp3 if you have a critical ear. This from the blindingly obvious file? Pop/rock is compressed to death (see Loudness wars) already. And much of it is synths or distorted guitars to begin with, so losing some fidelity is not going to be noticed. Symphonies are hard to reproduce with high end systems, they are a poor choice for testing. If classical includes soloist violins, or small chamber groups, then it can be a good selection for testing. The best audio tracks to test are things like acoustic guitar with one singer, or bluegrass. Or some of Patricia Barber's jazz. If you want to test gear, you need signal that you can tell on, first. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Sorry Pat, I just posted that in case some people didn't know. I'm glad you expanded it for everyone that already knew. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410749 Wrote: Recent postings in some threads here have stirred up that old hornets nest of blind testing once again. The antagonists have once again set out their uncompromising positions, with no prospect of reaching any kind of shared view. So, at the risk of getting badly stung by the angry hornets, I present here some thoughts that try to find a middle ground. Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin... There exists within the audio enthusiast community two diametrically opposed camps, which for the sake of argument we'll call Objectivists and Subjectivists. What their argument is about we'll come to later. But first, let's summarise what they agree on. Both groups acknowledge that when comparing two similar components (eg. CD players, amplifiers, etc), there are times that a difference is heard when listening sighted, but no difference can be detected when a blind comparison is made. It's in their analysis of why this might be so that the two groups diverge. The Objectivist seems to take the view that since there is no difference in the detectable soundfield (as evidenced by a blind comparison), the difference heard during sighted listening is down to other factors, such as the appearance and feel of the equipment, knowledge of its price and manufacturer, etc. The Objectivist typically considers that to allow oneself to be influenced by these other factors is some kind of character flaw. And here is a curious thing. The Subjectivist thinks exactly the same as the Objectivist: that to allow oneself to be so influenced is a character flaw. They therefore draw the conclusion that the difference heard is not down to any such external factors, but must be due to some problem with the blind comparison methodology that prevents the differences being detected. Why not just accept the fact that external factors do modify what we hear, and it is human nature that it does so? It's only reasonable that the satisfaction in operating an exquisitely finished CD player will enhance the listening experience. There's no shame in it. Objectivists should stop telling people they are deluding themselves when they hear a difference, and Subjectivists should stop insisting that the difference they hear can't be down to these external factors. Then we could all live in harmony, world peace would ensue, blah blah blah... Here's an analogy. You have two servings of food: one is presented artistically and looks nice on the plate; the other is the same but has been pre-cut up, mixed and dumped into a bowl. Once the food is in the mouth, there's no difference, but pretty much everyone would think the nicely presented food tasted better. And I can't imagine that any objective food scientist would question their sanity. why is finding a middle ground necessary? sometimes, there is a right and a wrong. [double] blind testing was not invented for audiophiles. as far as i know, it was first created to test pharmaceuticals, you know, powerful drugs that one ingests... my guess is that the medical scientists and the multi billion conglomerates who back them know what they are talking about. the whole point of the testing in the audio realm, is to prove whether someone's sense [ie. subjective judgment] of hearing is in fact RELIABLE to identify one source over another accurately WITHOUT any knowledge of the source, other than what they hear. take ESP... would you believe someone can read minds, IF they simply said they could? like that joker on TV who uses all kinds of tricks (and editing) to look like he has abilities? or would only blind (and double blind) testing convince you of ESP? so how is hearing any different? -- MrSinatra www.lion-radio.org using: sb2 (my home) / sbr (parent's home) / sbc (my home) - w/sc 7.3.3b - win xp pro sp3 ie8 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid - d-link dir-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Nonreality wrote: And while we are on the subject, how much are sung in cables? Does it make a difference as to genre of the music sung into the cables? Must you break them in with guitar rock to make them match to hair bands? Should we plan on switching cables when we go from full symphonies to chamber groups? -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;412126 Wrote: Teus de Jong wrote: discussion is that I'm afraid a lot of people won't know the difference between the sound of a real Steinway and the sometimes totally distorted version some amplifiers make of them. When my daughter was trying to get into music schools (trumpet), we recorded her playing at the home of a professional accompanist. This woman was a music professor at a nearby university, and played all the usual places (Kennedy Center, etc.). She had a full size grand piano in her living room. It wasn't a Steinway, I forget, maybe a Bösendorfer. I'll never forget the sound of her playing with me sitting on the sofa. Amazing. And no stereo that I've ever heard has replicated it. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ I could not agree more with this observation. Live music can not be replicated in your living room. Every DAC design is someones view of how the digital version should be shaded. -- Mongo Mongo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6329 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
probedb;412026 Wrote: Yep, plenty thanks, I have 3 gigs/concerts in 1 week over Easter for starters. Why would I want the smell of stale alcohol in my living room? I'm sorry but I disagree with you, I love sitting in complete darkness listening to music if I'm relaxing but that same music still sounds great when I'm walking to work listening to it on my Westone UM-2s and iPhone. Don't get me wrong live music is fantastic but it has absolutely nothing to do with listening to it on a stereo for me. I love my UM-2's. The best in the ear phones that not many have ever heard of. Comfortable enough to sleep with them in. It's with these that I can tell problems with some lower bit rate mp3's which forced me to re rip. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;412126 Wrote: I'll never forget the sound of her playing with me sitting on the sofa. Amazing. And no stereo that I've ever heard has replicated it. Marvelous isn't it? That's what music is all about. It shows that even with a single instrument like the piano any reproduction is only an approximation. darrenyeats;412114 Wrote: I'm referring to your comment about Class D amplifiers. Whether it's justified or not is irrelevant to my point, which is that you have expectations about them now. Maybe what you hear is being coloured by the expectation. Then again, maybe not. There would be only one way to find out... :) I'm not absolutely against double blind tests. But just some extra observations (or if you want, ramblings): 1. In the discussions (also in this thread) at least two types of so called 'blind tests' are mixed up. a) Arranging a test between amps (or other equipment) where you can't see which one is playing (with level matching, etc.) b) Tests where a lot of people are asked to give their opinion about hearing a difference between two types of encoding. These are totally different things for me. I could -- in certain circumstances -- see the value of a). But b) is a totally different matter, at most interesting as psychological experiment. For me the perception and absorption of music is a learning process; therefore I'm not that interested in these kind of psychological tests. Lets make a comparison here. If someone has read Umberto Eco's novel 'The name of the rose', the impact of this novel will totally depend on the background knowledge of this person. The beautiful thing about this novel is that you don't need any background knowledge to appreciate the book. But _if_ you know a lot about medieval philosophy, theology, conspiracy theories, etc., the book has a much deeper meaning. For me the same applies to music. 2. The comparison for me would in the first place have to be between the real thing (e.g. a Bösendorfer preferably played by a competent player) and the reproduction of that. Of course, people only interested in electronically produced music will say this is an irrelevant criterium. But not only classical music lovers can agree with me here: a lot of non-classical music still depends on the beauty of the instruments playing (and the way they are played). 3. GuydeBord is right to a certain extend: music is not only about the sound, it is much more. Let me take a non-classical example here (I'm not only a classical music lover). Why do I like 'Make you feel my love' sung by Bob Dylan much more than all the later covers? It certainly isn't the voice of Dylan. But to me it feels authentic. I'm not only listening to beautiful sounds; music is much more than that. Even to the point where we can't express ourselves in words anymore. Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Mr Sinatra wrote: blind testing was not invented for audiophiles. as far as i know, it was first created to test pharmaceuticals... Blind testing is hardly limited to pharmaceuticals. It is a basic part of the scientific method where controls are needed address the effects of observer bias, the placebo effect, expectation bias and various unconscious influences on participants. It is used in psychology, the social sciences, forensics, consumer products (e.g., taste tests) and even particle physics where a scientist's pet theory could influence the analysis of data. In audio, the term blind test is too often used interchangeably with ABX; they are not the same thing. Simply put, if one product does sound different from another, a listener should be able to hear that difference without first knowing a brand name or seeing it. The vagaries of human perception do not suddenly disappear because the subject at hand is audio. (An excellent book on this is Cordelia Fine's A Mind of its Own: How Your Brain Distorts and Deceives.) Of course, the relevance of blind testing varies with what one is trying to discover. Picking out components for my home system requires nothing more than pleasing myself. If I wish to allow name brands, knowledge of features and visual appearance to influence my decision, great! I'll have to live with all that anyway once the equipment is in place in my home. If I'm doing research on the threshold of audibility for a professional paper, or on product development before thousands or millions of dollars are invested, the importance of eliminating non-audio subjective factors is a higher-stakes issue. The interesting thing is that the ego of most audiophiles isn't satisfied with a simple I like it when it comes to their equipment choices. They want scientific research to validate their choice. Any test that supports their choice is accepted immediately while anything that challenges their belief is subject to withering skepticism. For example, when differences that are plainly heard in sighted auditions disappear during a blind one, the most obvious explanation is there was a subjective component that influenced the sighted audition. This is based on years of observation in all other areas that examine how humans think and react. However, the audiophile instead turns up the skepticism dial and immediately blames the blind test procedure. While no test conducted by humans will ever be perfect, there has been a pretty strong track record that humongous differences in sighted tests generally shrink to a more modest and subtle size when testing is blind. When humans don't get the answer they want and they are hearing hoof beats, they have a habit of ignoring the herd of horses standing nearby and go looking for zebras instead. In short, audiophiles are pretty human after all. ;-) -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Teus de Jong wrote: Lets make a comparison here. If someone has read Umberto Eco's novel 'The name of the rose', the impact of this novel will totally depend on the background knowledge of this person. The beautiful thing about this novel is that you don't need any background knowledge to appreciate the book. no, but you certainly need some patience and perseverance; I find it hard-going, albeit rewarding. warning: don't expect the book of the film :) cheers, c. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
to me, it comes down to a simple issue of justifying cost. I hear that the Transporter might be a very good upgrade from my SBR. And it looks great. And I can have my beloved old-fashioned analogue VU*, and still have text info. Marvelous! :) But it costs over a thousand quid, which is a huge amount of money, to me. I don't trust myself at all: if I buy it, I might sit there and think: goodness, this is so much better than before. But I know I am likely to be easily swayed by these extraneous things, especially after a few gins, so I'd like to know that I really am hearing an improvement. That *requires* that I do proper ABX testing: if I can tell the difference, I can then decide whether it's worth it (to me), to spend the money acheiving it. If I can't tell the difference, I won't buy it. I don't believe anything other than ABX testing can answer this question, for me. I did a similar test when deciding to move from my prosumer compact digital camera to a full-blown digital SLR. It cost much more than the Transporter, but I found I could take much better (to me) pictures with it, so I'm very happy. So, why not just buy myself the Transporter, and believe it's better, even if I'm fooling myself? If I believe it, what's the problem? It's simple: I can't really afford to do that. I would be better off spending the money on better speakers (well, that's true anyway). Or gin. cheers, calum. * - I grew up watching these meters on high-class audio, and I wish I had them now, despite them being useless (to me). ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cdmackay;412293 Wrote: Teus de Jong wrote: Lets make a comparison here. If someone has read Umberto Eco's novel 'The name of the rose', the impact of this novel will totally depend on the background knowledge of this person. The beautiful thing about this novel is that you don't need any background knowledge to appreciate the book. no, but you certainly need some patience and perseverance; I find it hard-going, albeit rewarding. warning: don't expect the book of the film :) cheers, c. Yes, The Name of the Rose can be a tough at times but it's a little easier to understand than some of Eco's other novels. The Island of the Day Before is one of my favorites and I'm still not sure that I even understood about half of it. Sometimes Eco reads like the Italian Thomas Pynchon, they both take more than a little work to get through their books but the extra effort is always well rewarded. Sorry for going so far off topic but I think things needed a break for a post or two. I find it revealing to read about the forum members' other interests aside from audio, music and computers. Literature is as good an other interest to delve into as anything else. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
thanks for the recommendations Ralph, I'll look those that Eco, and some Pynchon. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cdmackay;412296 Wrote: to me, it comes down to a simple issue of justifying cost. I hear that the Transporter might be a very good upgrade from my SBR. And it looks great. And I can have my beloved old-fashioned analogue VU*, and still have text info. Marvelous! :) But it costs over a thousand quid, which is a huge amount of money, to me. I don't trust myself at all: if I buy it, I might sit there and think: goodness, this is so much better than before. But I know I am likely to be easily swayed by these extraneous things, especially after a few gins, so I'd like to know that I really am hearing an improvement. That *requires* that I do proper ABX testing: if I can tell the difference, I can then decide whether it's worth it (to me), to spend the money acheiving it. If I can't tell the difference, I won't buy it. I don't believe anything other than ABX testing can answer this question, for me. I did a similar test when deciding to move from my prosumer compact digital camera to a full-blown digital SLR. It cost much more than the Transporter, but I found I could take much better (to me) pictures with it, so I'm very happy. So, why not just buy myself the Transporter, and believe it's better, even if I'm fooling myself? If I believe it, what's the problem? It's simple: I can't really afford to do that. I would be better off spending the money on better speakers (well, that's true anyway). Or gin. cheers, calum. * - I grew up watching these meters on high-class audio, and I wish I had them now, despite them being useless (to me). You're right, if nothing short of a full blown ABX will make you happy then don't spend the money. However, just for the record, what does your audio system consist of right now? Are you using the analog outputs of the SBR or the digital outputs into an external DAC or receiver? There are several other ways to improve the sound of your existing audio system besides upgrading to a Transporter and many of them may cost less than a Transporter. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
DBT don't have to be used to prove something is a farce or is wrong. I read quite a few at hydrogenaudio when I was trying to figure out what bit rate to go with for home and for my Ipods and Sansa's. It gave me a reference point to start with and one that I knew would be probably ok for most people. They mainly showed me at what rates people could start hearing artifacts and what rates were acceptable if space was an issue. I never did see any that stated a 128 file was equal to a lossless btw. Most stated that a good portion of people coundn't tell the difference above 190 and very few above 256. I don't find that hard to believe as I don't find it hard to believe that there a people than can tell a difference. No big deal to me as long as what I pick and play sounds good to me. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;411584 Wrote: because I have a close relationship with siltech and kharma, and have been present at their voicing auditions. In that case you should hopefully be able to answer the first part of the question: How does somebody voice a cable and what do they change to achieve the desired sound? -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Nonreality said: I never did see any that stated a 128 file was equal to a lossless btw. That's an excellent point. One of the most annoying things about these types of discussions is the degree to which actual positions can be misrepresented by the opposing view. Your comment above (which others have also stated) gives a typical case. As you and others have noted, I not aware of any study that claims 128Kbps is indistinguishable from CD, yet it is a constant theme. I guess it is far too convenient a straw man to give up. Even most advertising and marketing copy typically refers to the lossy compression formats as near-CD quality. While one can get into a debate of what near means and its appropriateness as an adjective, even that is not a statement of no difference. And, in any case, should advertising copy ever be the authority cited in a discussion about testing results? -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
mlsstl;411719 Wrote: Your comment above (which others have also stated) gives a typical case. As you and others have noted, I not aware of any study that claims 128Kbps is indistinguishable from CD, yet it is a constant theme. I guess it is far too convenient a straw man to give up. In the UK the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) exists to police the advertising industry and investigate complaints from the public. The ASA is occasionally called on to adjudicate complaints concerning an advertiser's claims regarding sound quality. In investigating a complaint against Nokia in 2007 the ASA concluded that Nokia's claim that 128kbs AAC equated to CD sound quality was unlikely to mislead. They based this conclusion on tests provided by Nokia that proved that most listeners were unable to distinguish between compressed AAC files encoded at 128kbps and CD sound. http://www.cap.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_42482.htm This judgement has been widely reported (and lamented) in the UK hifi press. -- john4456 john4456's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23008 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
I spent half an hour chatting with Martin Colloms at a HiFi Show on Sunday. I'd never met him before, although I've read many of his reviews, and he was just as enthusiastic about hi-fi as I imagined he would be. Most of the time we talked about blind testing. To my surprise he said he used blind and double blind testing quite often. In the past he's done many pure blind reviews but these dried up in the seventies because since about then no-one has been willing to pay for the extra time and resources needed. However, he said he uses blind and double blind listening to validate his subjective reviews all the time. I asked why I had never read a single word of this in all his reviews I'd seen but never got a direct answer. He mentioned he did a blind test of something controversial in front of the AES /on stage/ a while ago, which sounded interesting. Certainly there was a lot we didn't have time to cover about what he's tested blind and how. And any blind or double blind test may be flawed (in a way benefiting either the subjectivists or skeptics). He described some of the problems with blind testing speakers. But for me none of that is the point. What I found surprising and pleasing was that Martin doesn't ignore the elephant in the room. He doesn't deny that the placebo effect applies to music listening. I think there's a question over how to address the placebo problem properly and practically. But there's no denying the problem exists. It was surprising to hear one of the doyens of the hi-fi press to speak like that. Perhaps the fact this isn't published says a lot about how the hi-fi press is funded. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
john4456;411754 Wrote: In the UK the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) exists to police the advertising industry and investigate complaints from the public. The ASA is occasionally called on to adjudicate complaints concerning an advertiser's claims regarding sound quality. In investigating a complaint against Nokia in 2007 the ASA concluded that Nokia's claim that 128kbs AAC equated to CD sound quality was unlikely to mislead. They based this conclusion on tests provided by Nokia that proved that most listeners were unable to distinguish between compressed AAC files encoded at 128kbps and CD sound. http://www.cap.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_42482.htm This judgement has been widely reported (and lamented) in the UK hifi press. Thanks for the link...very interesting. However you do know what the response will be from those in favor of DBTs: The tests conducted by Nokia were faulty, as is almost ALWAYS the case when DBT's fail to produce the desired result. Perhaps those pro-DBT should follow some of their own advice: if DBTs can, and often do, produce faulty results then maybe, just maybe, it is the whole concept of DBT that is faulty. As for the comparisons to mathematical proofs, I seem to remember that finding even one exception to a given theorem (unlike in spelling where exceptions proved the rule) was enough to invalidate the theorem. When an individual involved in an DBT consistently identifies A as A and B as B while the majority of the other people cannot then that person's responses are dismissed as statistically insignificant instead of be taken as proving that real differences exist. While statistics have their place and are very useful, they are not the same thing as rigid mathematical proofs. So please make up your minds, is it hard science, as is the case with mathematical proofs, or soft science, as is the case with statistics? By the way, if DBTs can be used to show that no differences exist where there clearly are differences, as is the case with comparisons of lossy to lossless compression, then exactly what good are they? Oh wait, I know the answer to this: they allow the pro-DBTers to laugh at expensive audio cables. Well go ahead and laugh away because I rather enjoy my main stereo system with its expensive cables although I must admit that on this system lossless files do tend to sound better than lossy files. Maybe that's because the only thing in the system made by Logitech is the Transporter and not the speakers. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;411766 Wrote: But for me none of that is the point. What I found surprising and pleasing was that Martin doesn't ignore the elephant in the room. He doesn't deny that the placebo effect applies to music listening. I think there's a question over how to address the placebo problem properly and practically. But there's no denying the problem exists. It was surprising to hear one of the doyens of the hi-fi press speak like that. Perhaps the fact this isn't published says a lot about commercial realities for the hi-fi press. Darren Darren, When I read a reasonable and well thought out post like yours I feel a small pang of regret for some of the harsh words I put into some of my own posts (but that pang is very small and short lived :)). You are, of course, completely correct: the placebo effect does exist but its existence does not necessarily mean that sonic differences do not exist between various brands of electronics but only that the importance and degree of these sonic differences tends to be exaggerated as a result of this placebo effect. And certainly blind testing, when used as Mr. Colloms uses it, can serve a very useful function but blind testing is just another tool in the box for evaluating audio equipment and not the be all and end all of testing methods. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411768 Wrote: When an individual involved in an DBT consistently identifies A as A and B as B while the majority of the other people cannot then that person's responses are dismissed as statistically insignificant instead of be taken as proving that real differences exist. That isn't true. A good DBT test will take any statistically significant groups like that and test further to check whether the apparent statistic significance is just chance or something real. I say a good DBT... Let's get back to the central point. Arguing about specific DBT tests is a smoke screen for avoiding admitting the central principle, namely the placebo effect applies to music listening. Let's have a debate about what (if anything) can be done to address the placebo effect properly and practically. But to deny the placebo effect is acknowledged generally, as in outside of this little audiophile world, as unrealistic. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411773 Wrote: You are, of course, completely correct I can see our views are not that far apart. Just kidding. :) ralphpnj;411773 Wrote: the placebo effect does exist but its existence does not necessarily mean that sonic differences do not exist between various brands of electronics but only that the importance and degree of these sonic differences tends to be exaggerated as a result of this placebo effect. And certainly blind testing, when used as Mr. Colloms uses it, can serve a very useful function but blind testing is just another tool in the box for evaluating audio equipment and not the be all and end all of testing methods. Seriously, we are probably more in agreement than not. I think what is damaging is fundamentalism on either side. I would describe myself as a skeptical agnostic. Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. - Richard Feynman Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;411775 Wrote: That isn't necessarily true. A good DBT test will take any statistically significant groups like that and test further to check whether the apparent statistical significance is just chance or something real. I say a good DBT... Let's get back to the central point. Arguing about specific DBT tests can sometimes be a smoke screen for avoiding the central principle, namely the placebo effect applies to music listening. Let's have a debate about what (if anything) can be done to address the placebo effect properly and practically. But to deny the placebo effect is acknowledged generally, as in outside of this little audiophile world, as unrealistic. Darren Darren, Your posts are consistently on the mark and you go out of way to put out the flames instead of fanning them. As I stated in my prior post, I agree that the placebo effect is real and I agree that the use of DBTs can be helpful. I only take issue with those who claim that DBTs are good enough to use as a single tool in making audio purchase decisions. That's the reason that I find Stereophile's inclusion of test results as part of an equipment review to be an important tool to be used along with the subjective review. darrenyeats;411778 Wrote: I can see our views are not that far apart. Just kidding. :) Seriously, we are probably more in agreement than not. I think what is damaging is fundamentalism on either side. I would describe myself as a skeptical agnostic. Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. - Richard Feynman Darren Again you are correct. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
john4456 said: proved that most listeners were unable to distinguish between compressed AAC files encoded at 128kbps and CD sound. I took some time to run down the original Report on the MPEG-2 AAC Stereo Verification Tests done for the ISO in 1997 and published in 1998. Interestingly enough, the primary focus of this test was to compare AAC encoding against MP3 and not as a test of lossy to CD quality. The grading scale ran from 1 to 5, with 5 being indistinguishable. Grade 4 was perceptible but not annoying. The 31 listeners were trained at the start of the tests as to which artifacts they were to listen for. On page 26 in Conclusions of the 48 page document, one finds the following question answer: Is the performance of the coding of AAC codecs at the tested bitrate distinguishable from the original signal? Sections 10.7 and 11 show that there is a statistical difference between the source for coded items, both overall and for some specific items. The material ranged from voice specific instruments to a couple of commercial recordings, so whether the difference was detectable or not depended on the item recorded. A large number of charts show the audibility of the various codecs for each specific recording. There were recordings where the difference was perceptible but not annoying. The wording seems a bit obtuse in the report, but if I read this correctly, that means grade 4 falls within the EBU (European Broadcast Union) definition of indistinguishable allowed for critical material. (Keep in mind this was really a comparison of lossy codecs and the original source material was mainly present as a starting point.) So, in short, while the statistical conclusions of this report were good enough to keep Nokia out of hot water with their advertising claim, the report does not quite claim, as suggested, to prove that lossy compression cannot be distinguished from CD. Thanks for the lead to an interesting read. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411768 Wrote: By the way, if DBTs can be used to show that no differences exist where there clearly are differences, as is the case with comparisons of lossy to lossless compression, then exactly what good are they? I'm not sure if you're deliberately misstating this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Any kind of listening tests - sighted, blind, double blind or anything else cannot hope to show that no differences exist. They can only show whether or not any differences are perceivable. That's an incredibly important distinction - I agree that FLAC and mp3 are _different_, that's not up for discussion. What is interesting is whether the difference can be perceived, because if it can't, I'd question whether it matters. And of course, no test involving less than the entire human species can say that some difference is or is not perceivable for everyone, which is where statistics comes into play. If I properly setup a test with a properly selected set of subjects, I can say with a known certainty how likely it is that you (or anyone else) could perceive this difference. Oh wait, I know the answer to this: they allow the pro-DBTers to laugh at expensive audio cables. Well go ahead and laugh away because I rather enjoy my main stereo system with its expensive cables And I rather enjoy mine with it's decidedly cheap cables. I'm glad we're both enjoying the music :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Will you two please get a room :) Rant The results published by Stereophile (and any mag for that matter) are about as useful as a hairdryer in a tornado. As for the schizo mags like Hi-Fi World that publish what look like well-measured results and then confound them with complete hyperbolic twaddle (pages 28-31 of the May issue for example) - they just lack any credibility for me. Now of course this mag has an agenda larger than the Empire State building (vinyl is perfect, everything else is tolerated on sufferance). /Rant XML tags always make me feel justified :) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;411775 Wrote: Let's have a debate about what (if anything) can be done to address the placebo effect properly and practically. While people seem to be beginning to agree that the placebo effect does exist in audio, it seems that the basic point I was attempting to make when I began this thread is still being missed. It is my contention that the placebo effect is not a problem, and isn't something we should worry about. If the placebo effect enhances one's listening pleasure, that's fine: accept it as a benefit. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;411838 Wrote: If the placebo effect enhances one's listening pleasure, that's fine: accept it as a benefit. But if you can save money by having a cheaper placebo (Those 10gauge zip cords from Home Depot work great!) then it is even better. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
CatBus wrote: darrenyeats;411499 Wrote: Is that true? I thought I'd read about some blind tests where people could distinguish between MP3 320 and red book? It depends on the sample. There really are tracks have not yet been distinguished with any certainty from RedBook at 320k, and there really are tracks that are easily distinguished with high confidence. I've seen this mentioned a number of times. To me, it's extremely hard to understand how it can be true; but that's probably because of my ears. Does anyone have a pointer to these experiments, so we can read about them first-hand? cheers, calum. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cdmackay;411917 Wrote: I've seen this mentioned a number of times. To me, it's extremely hard to understand how it can be true; but that's probably because of my ears. Does anyone have a pointer to these experiments, so we can read about them first-hand? cheers, calum. Better than that--I can point you to the samples themselves. But first--you weren't clear which you wanted...do you want the 320k MP3 that's indistinguishable from RedBook or the 320k MP3 that's easily distinguished from RedBook. It's a kinda important difference. The first one's easy: silence.mp3. Sounds just like the source. Yes, it's a bit of a cop-out too but I'm trying not to fan flames here and I may get grudging agreement from a few subjectivists on this one. The next one is harder--there's a sample called eig that's a pretty good general-purpose MP3-wrecker. Google will help you here. IMO it's a great example of a track that just cannot be fixed by throwing more bits at it. It's not that hard to understand. MP3 uses algorithms to figure out which data can be discarded without causing an audible difference (and IMO the LAME project has done a fantastic job with those algorithms, keeping yestertech like MP3 competitive with other lossy formats). Careful enough study of those algorithms and their assumptions would allow you to custom-create a track that wouldn't compress without audible artifacts. Also, given the enormous amount of music in the world, there will always be several tracks that naturally won't compress right. There's no question that these tracks exist. The question is always: what's the likelihood that one of those tracks is in my collection? -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
CatBus;411934 Wrote: Better than that--I can point you to the samples themselves. But first--you weren't clear which you wanted...do you want the 320k MP3 that's indistinguishable from RedBook or the 320k MP3 that's easily distinguished from RedBook. It's a kinda important difference. The first one's easy: silence.mp3. Sounds just like the source. Yes, it's a bit of a cop-out too but I'm trying not to fan flames here and I may get grudging agreement from a few subjectivists on this one. The next one is harder--there's a sample called eig that's a pretty good general-purpose MP3-wrecker. Google will help you here. IMO it's a great example of a track that just cannot be fixed by throwing more bits at it. It's not that hard to understand. MP3 uses algorithms to figure out which data can be discarded without causing an audible difference (and IMO the LAME project has done a fantastic job with those algorithms, keeping yestertech like MP3 competitive with other lossy formats). Careful enough study of those algorithms and their assumptions would allow you to custom-create a track that wouldn't compress without audible artifacts. Also, given the enormous amount of music in the world, there will always be several tracks that naturally won't compress right. There's no question that these tracks exist. The question is always: what's the likelihood that one of those tracks is in my collection? The general consensus seems to be that rock and pop at the higher bit rates are tough for almost anyone to tell a difference while classical is not the best candidate for mp3 if you have a critical ear. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Nonreality wrote: The general consensus seems to be that rock and pop at the higher bit rates are tough for almost anyone to tell a difference while classical is not the best candidate for mp3 if you have a critical ear. This from the blindingly obvious file? Pop/rock is compressed to death (see Loudness wars) already. And much of it is synths or distorted guitars to begin with, so losing some fidelity is not going to be noticed. Symphonies are hard to reproduce with high end systems, they are a poor choice for testing. If classical includes soloist violins, or small chamber groups, then it can be a good selection for testing. The best audio tracks to test are things like acoustic guitar with one singer, or bluegrass. Or some of Patricia Barber's jazz. If you want to test gear, you need signal that you can tell on, first. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Excuse me for straying a little from the topic, but this dicussion reminds me of one I had on a forum run by a Canadian speaker manufacturer with a name starting with A. The concensus on that forum seems to be that because any modern amplifier has a flat frequency response, and inaudible harmonic distortion, than all amps sound the same. It doesn't matter how much they cost or the qauality of the components, they are all the same, except that some are louder. Amps don't 'sound', they amplify I was told. Clearly in the If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist camp. I suspect hundreds of amp manufacturers might have a problem with this concept. On reflection, perhaps I'm not as far off topic as I thought :) Shane -- swhite58 Clark Connect Linux file server-Various boxes with flashing lights-SB3-Zhaolu D3 DAC-NAD C320BEE-Usher S-520/Sennheiser headphones swhite58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5038 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
CatBus;411236 Wrote: Bad example, you're right. String theory. Many Freudian/Jungian theories. Both at least started out as making up stuff that works out the way we like, and can't be tested. I understand string theory is on the cusp of being testable so I may retract that half. Admittedly I'm no big fan of either. But in their favor, they sure inspired some good science by others, even if they were suspect in their own right. The proponents of string theory were not subjectivists dreaming up something that other scientists dismissed. They were serious physicists working within the community of science and accepted as valid scientists by other physicists. All sorts of physicists have been working to find a grand unification theory relating gravity, the strong force and the weak force. Theorists propose a new theory that agrees with known experimental results AND predicts new experimental results. Experimentalists then perform experiments that can confirm the new predictions or not. I'll hold my tongue on Freud. CatBus;411236 Wrote: Honestly I think that's the best thing about subjectivists in my opinion. They ask the crazy off-the-wall questions that get things moving in a whole new direction. When it comes to providing answers, they're not so good, unfortunately. The point is that they don't try to verify what they claim. -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;411196 Wrote: I know by fact that most of the components I own, once designed were voiced by ear(s) including my expensive cables. How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
honestguv wrote: How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? Obviously, all cables that cost more than $200 meter are voiced. Intuitively obvious to the most naive observer. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;411268 Wrote: honestguv wrote: How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? Obviously, all cables that cost more than $200 meter are voiced. Intuitively obvious to the most naive observer. I paid far less for my cables so they only hum. bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Listener;411276 Wrote: I paid far less for my cables so they only hum. bill My Transporter is connected to SqueezeCenter wirelessly but the air in my house is strictly top of the line audiophile quality. I've done extensive testing, both subjective and objective, and have concluded that the high quality of the air in my house is what allows the Transporter to achieve such a high level of performance. YMMV Sorry, but I had to throw that in since once any discussion of DBT veers into the world of cables all is soon lost. Don't believe me? Just watch what happens over the course of the next 24 hours. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;410979 Wrote: Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! Since when did music smell? -- probedb Paul. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
probedb;411347 Wrote: Since when did music smell? Since people starting believing that the American Idol winners and runner-ups could sing. Remember just say NO to American Idol. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Isn't the great triumph of blind testing that it enables advertisers to claim that 128kbs mp3 is cd quality ? -- john4456 john4456's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23008 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
john4456;411418 Wrote: Isn't the great triumph of blind testing that it enables advertisers to claim that 128kbs mp3 is cd quality ? No. Any other questions? -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;411022 Wrote: cliveb, you need to listen to some music. go to a concert even. What's the point? I'd have forgotten what it sounded like before I got to the parking lot. I'll go back to my 64kbps frauenhoffer mp3's, people tell me they sound awful but I don't remember hearing anything better, so they must be OK. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
I'm a bit confused here. Those in favor of DBT use it as a reason for deriding the subjectivists and their expensive cables since DBT clearly shows that most (if not all) cables sound the same. And this behavior is not only accepted but often times encouraged, as in, Hey isn't that guy a dope for spending $$$ on those cables when the much less expensive el-cheapo cable is just as good. Ha ha ha! However when the subjectivists point out that DBTs also show that an mp3 file sounds the same as an uncompressed or losslessly compressed file the objectivists resort to snide remarks and silly comments. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Basically there are problems with both belief systems and as is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
I am blind and S Club 7 sound the best wherever I am. MC -- ModelCitizen On average people have fewer than two feet. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
radish;411454 Wrote: What's the point? I'd have forgotten what it sounded like before I got to the parking lot. I'll go back to my 64kbps frauenhoffer mp3's, people tell me they sound awful but I don't remember hearing anything better, so they must be OK. LOL. ralphpnj;411475 Wrote: However when the subjectivists point out that DBTs also show that an mp3 file sounds the same as an uncompressed or losslessly compressed file Is that true? I thought I'd read about some blind tests where people could distinguish between MP3 320 and red book? If a difference is audible I'm sure the right blind test could be designed to allow people to demonstrate that. Of course, not all blind tests are necessarily good tests! If ninety nine badly designed tests show up no difference and one well designed test shows a difference then I agree we can ignore the ninety nine. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411475 Wrote: I'm a bit confused here. Those in favor of DBT use it as a reason for deriding the subjectivists Yep, you're confused. As a rule, we don't. However when the subjectivists point out that DBTs also show that an mp3 file sounds the same as an uncompressed or losslessly compressed file the objectivists resort to snide remarks and silly comments. Live by the sword, die by the sword. It was asserted that DBT was used to show that 128kbps MP3's are CD Quality. I've seen this claim a lot on the Internet, but there's never much in the way of facts behind it, then or now. For example, while I'm sure you could hand-pick some tracks that produce these results, that's hardly the way any objectivist would test. You could also alter the definition of CD Quality such that it doesn't mean sounds indistinguishable from a CD, but then if you go that far you don't even need to bother testing--just ratchet down your definitions until they meet your needs. I've seen quite a lot of DBT's of 128k MP3's. The results are that they don't sound like lossless. I summarized this as: No. Basically there are problems with both belief systems and as is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That depends on how you define truth. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;411499 Wrote: Is that true? I thought I'd read about some blind tests where people could distinguish between MP3 320 and red book? It depends on the sample. There really are tracks have not yet been distinguished with any certainty from RedBook at 320k, and there really are tracks that are easily distinguished with high confidence. The question is: if this is the case, would you trust that your collection fits entirely into the former category without testing each track? The most important point is that people tend to misread DBT results. If someone claims a DBT proves people can't tell the difference between X and Y, they are simply wrong. Flat wrong. It doesn't work like that. The most lossy-friendly results possible will say only that X and Y could not be confidently distinguished within the limits of the test. That last clause--within the limits of the test is what makes most PC-ABX testing worthless, because those tests are more constrained by their listening setup than the media they're testing. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411475 Wrote: I'm a bit confused here. Basically there are problems with both belief systems and as is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Nonsense. When people make incorrect objective statements they are simply wrong. If one person says the earth is flat and another says it is spherical does the truth lie somewhere in between? Perhaps a cube? If one person says 2+2=6 and another says 2+2=4 is the truth 2+2=5? When it comes to objective matters there is a correct and an incorrect. Subjectivists audiophiles are not wrong about subjective matters but they often wrong about a wide range of objective matters. -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Not that I want to pat myself on the back or anything but. More in the way of reaching a middle ground has come about since my last post than in the 10+ prior posts. I'm glad to see that things are beginning to lighten up a bit since nothing new or constructive was being said, just the same old arguments over and over again. I admit that there have been many valid points brought up and based on the reasonable points made by both sides I'm beginning to think, as I stated before, that the truth does lie somewhere between the extremes. One should try and use a blind test along with a decent set of measurements as a starting point and work from there. Regardless of what type of testing one adheres to, be it DBT or subjective testing, no type of testing replaces listening for oneself and, if at all possible, listening to the equipment under consideration in one's own audio system. Because as the man says: YMMV -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
probedb;411347 Wrote: Since when did music smell? have you ever gone to a concert venue, a symphony hall? I never said that music smells, but you involve all your senses in a musical experience... -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
honestguv;411263 Wrote: How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? because I have a close relationship with siltech and kharma, and have been present at their voicing auditions. -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ModelCitizen;411476 Wrote: I am blind and S Club 7 sound the best wherever I am. MC They sound much better if you are deaf. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
opaqueice;410870 Wrote: the industry needs to focus on the areas that matter, and stop getting distracted by mysticism and bogus received wisdom. Clearly what matters to you and other posters here is NOT the feeling of music! Listening to music is by all means a SUBJECTIVE action, there is nothing scientific about it unless you dont care about music and just sound! this forum is populated by sound geeks. You guys arent sensible enough to feel shivers thats why you resort to (pseudo) science. Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;410808 Wrote: No it is not my position. I said that A-B-X testing is a poor way of evaluating components, because it is more a test of memory than anything else. OK, so you feel that memory is not a good mechanism to compare audio components. Let's suppose it's true, and then consider your next statement: JezA;410808 Wrote: It is perfectly possible to compare two components. Do you understand that? No, I don't understand. How exactly do you suggest two audio components can be compared without using memory? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
There's a number of things I'd like to respond to, so let's gather them all in one post: honestguv;410861 Wrote: cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Blind Testing Controversy There is nothing controversial about blind testing. Sorry - I didn't mean to suggest that there is any doubt about the validity of blind testing per se. I was only referring to the arguments it causes in the audio world. I was originally going to use the title The Blind Testing Bunfight, but felt that word might be too UK-centric. On reflection, controversy was the wrong word to use. opaqueice;410870 Wrote: cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Objectivist typically considers that to allow oneself to be influenced by these other factors is some kind of character flaw. While I obviously can't speak for others, I haven't found that characterization to be at all accurate. In I don't think I've ever encountered that view, despite reading more comments on this debate than I care to admit. CatBus made the same comment: that Objectivists are not making such an accusation. I've therefore clearly misinterpreted the things I've seen written on these and other forums for many years now. Countless times I've seen phrases like you're deluding yourself and you're imagining it. Reading between the lines, these phrases seem to be implying that this delusion/imagination implies some level of gullibility. CatBus;410880 Wrote: cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Objectivist seems to take the view that since there is no difference in the detectable soundfield (as evidenced by a blind comparison) Usually I'm not this pedantic, but it seems to make a difference here. Failing to demonstrate a perceptible difference in a double-blind test does NOT mean that the difference can't be perceived! Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here. Are you pointing out that a double-blind test can only give a statistical confidence level, and that 100% proof is never possible? Or are you saying that, having failed to detect a difference in a blind test, a difference might be perceived by some other comparison method? CatBus;410880 Wrote: Failing to prove the existence of something is not the same as proving the lack of something. Perhaps in mathematics proof has this rigorous meaning, but in all other areas, nothing can ever be proved. Therefore we take the pragmatic view that proof means almost certainly true on the basis of the evidence. And if someone scores 50% in an ABX test with 20 or more test runs, I contend that their inability to perceive a difference is proved beyond all reasonable doubt. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb, you need to listen to some music. go to a concert even. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;411022 Wrote: cliveb, you need to listen to some music. go to a concert even. What is the purpose of that comment? I take it you won't (or can't) explain how to compare two components without using your memory, then? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410994 Wrote: Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here. Are you pointing out that a double-blind test can only give a statistical confidence level, and that 100% proof is never possible? Or are you saying that, having failed to detect a difference in a blind test, a difference might be perceived by some other comparison method? A little of both. Mostly I'm saying all tests results are, at best, limited by the conditions under which the test was administered. And then, my pedantry added that people need to be careful about saying they've proved the negative. It's simply more professional and correct to talk about confidence. Perhaps in mathematics proof has this rigorous meaning, but in all other areas, nothing can ever be proved. I can hear a 1KHz tone. I can prove that, even to people who swear up and down that I can't. There is a pigeon in my back yard. I can prove that, even to hardcore pigeon deniers. However, I cannot convince hardcore pigeon believers that there ISN'T a pigeon in my yard. It's a different thing entirely. Sure, you can apply the reasonable doubt standard if you like, but that's a legal term. Applying reasonable doubt to science would have killed Quantum Mechanics, among other things. It's a terminology/responsibility thing. When someone says they can hear a 30KHz tone, it's not really anybody else's job to prove they can't. It's THEIR job to prove they can. And that's easily doable, assuming they really can. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;410979 Wrote: Clearly what matters to you and other posters here is NOT the feeling of music! Listening to music is by all means a SUBJECTIVE action, there is nothing scientific about it unless you dont care about music and just sound! this forum is populated by sound geeks. You guys arent sensible enough to feel shivers thats why you resort to (pseudo) science. Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! 10 points for the definitive comment. People who work in IT, software, some engineering, etc., seem to make up a disproportionally large percentage of the participants in these forums. People of this ilk see EVERYTHING as black and white. No shades of gray. When things are gray, they nonetheless use their black and white approach, it's their orientation and it's comfortable. Gray is uncomfortable. To them, a software program, an oscilliscope, a calculation, specs, are all much more appropriate ways to assess sound than using ears, or feelings and emotions. They can deal with measurements, but not with impressions. I know too many people like this, they abound in Silicon Valley. They are how they are, it is appropriate for the work they do, it just doesn't translate well to the outside gray world. But they keep at it. It makes for boring conversations like this (that is, with those who can make conversation) -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;410979 Wrote: Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! You're erecting a straw-objectivist and then beating him over the head. The fact is that it seems to be -subjectivists- that have the most trouble relaxing and enjoying music. Objectivists have, if they choose, a perfectly well-defined set of criteria for choosing and comparing components. Moreover they understand that all that really matters are speakers and music - most of the rest is irrelevant. Subjectivists, on the other hand, have to fret over cables, power cords, magic pebbles... the result is inferior sound, an empty wallet and very little time spent actually enjoying music. I haven't changed anything in my system in quite a while, and (unless there's a practical reason to do so) I don't see why I would want to. I'm very satisfied with the sound, and if I wanted to improve it I would focus on things that actually make a difference - like rearranging the furniture or moving the speakers - rather than $1,000 wires. cliveb;410994 Wrote: CatBus made the same comment: that Objectivists are not making such an accusation. I've therefore clearly misinterpreted the things I've seen written on these and other forums for many years now. Countless times I've seen phrases like you're deluding yourself and you're imagining it. Reading between the lines, these phrases seem to be implying that this delusion/imagination implies some level of gullibility. -Everyone- hears things that aren't really there - that's human nature. The gullibility comes from believing that your subjective impressions correspond to any kind of real change in the sound. There's a big difference between that and what you said. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
CatBus;411101 Wrote: There is a pigeon in my back yard. I can prove that, even to hardcore pigeon deniers. However, I cannot convince hardcore pigeon believers that there ISN'T a pigeon in my yard. An image of a pigeon in your back yard would be evidence. A dead pigeon you collected in your back yard would be evidence. Even pigeon droppings from your back yard would be evidence. We don't even see the equivalent of pigeon drooppings in most audio discussions. Many subjectivists take hearing a difference in an uncontrolled situation to be proof. I think many objectivists would regard hearing a difference as generating a hypothesis that needs to be tested before it is accepted. CatBus;411101 Wrote: Applying reasonable doubt to science would have killed Quantum Mechanics, among other things. In fact science produced the theory of Quantum Mechanics in response to experiments and theoretical issues. So what great advances has subjectivist thinking produced? CatBus;411101 Wrote: It's a terminology/responsibility thing. When someone says they can hear a 30KHz tone, it's not really anybody else's job to prove they can't. It's THEIR job to prove they can. And that's easily doable, assuming they really can. You claim to hear a difference that seems improbable, you provide some convincing evidence. That is the essential problem with the subjectivist approach. It doesn't produce valid experiments and quantitative measurements to validate what subjectivists hear. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
opaqueice;43 Wrote: But the part of my comment that seems to have irritated you wasn't directed at listeners - it was directed at audio engineers, the people that design and build audio gear and make recordings, and have to worry about this stuff professionally. They shouldn't listen to audiophiles any more than MDs should listen to witch-doctors (which means very rarely there might be something with a kernel of truth, but the vast majority is nonsense). I know by fact that most of the components I own, once designed were voiced by ear(s) including my expensive cables. Of course some companies (i.e. YG acoustics) believe in pure measurements, the result sound is most of the time: analytical, clinical, un-organic and lifeless. Something a sound geek will love. So while aiming your comments at designer professionals you must admit that subjectivity is always at the end game -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;411196 Wrote: I know by fact that most of the components I own, once designed were voiced by ear(s) including my expensive cables. Of course some companies (i.e. YG acoustics) believe in pure measurements, the result sound is most of the time: analytical, clinical, un-organic and lifeless. Something a sound geek will love. So while aiming your comments at designer professionals you must admit that subjectivity is always at the end game So, basically, all you're saying is that you like inaccurate sound that may not represent the source material. That's fine and totally acceptable. I like some warmth to my music as well. Similarly, others appreciate what you call analytical or accurate, uncolored sound. That, too, is fine. But, you do need to get off this anti-sound geek high horse. It sounds immature at best. I work with ears on a daily basis. Your ears and the signals interpreted by your brain as sound are largely the same as the majority of the healthy-hearing population. There is no argument in this--it's human physiology and not subject to your emotions. Any downstream interpretation of this sound as something different or, as you put it, organic is through the introduction of bias. Again, I understand where you're coming from regarding listening to, interpreting and enjoying music but lose the pretentiousness... -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;410811 Wrote: 1. The word blind in blind testing doesn't refer to having no sense of sight. It's about not knowing the identity of the candidate at hand. Hence you can (and reviewers DO*) have blind tests on televisions. The frame of the television is covered so the tester doesn't know which unit is being looked at. 2. Clive's analogy is pretty good actually. You see a big shiny box with a Linn badge on it and admittedly it looks great. You see a dinky cheap looking box with a Squeezebox badge on it and it looks not so great! It changes the listening experience. Excellent analogy. Darren PS: *Remember what I said about the rest of the world? I know what a DBT is. I just think that most of them are done improperly. And you missed my point completely and proved it at the same time. Again the point is that the Eyes, Ears, and Brain can't be trusted except in extreme cases where the components being tested shouldn't even be in the same room with each other IE an audiophile system vs a Sears Rack system. When the Eyes are allowed to be involved, misconceptions, prejudices, prior opinions, and assumptions run rampant (just like the meal analogy). Which is why test equipment must be involved when components reach a certain level to which the Ears alone can no longer be trusted. There are not very many people in the world that can memorize track A played on equipment X and directly compare it with track A played afterwards on equipment Y. It is almost impossible to do when the equipment gets to a level in quality that requires DBT in the first place! This is one of the reasons that the review guys keep equipment for so long. The ears and brain get used to listening to a setup and have to be moved away from that with hours of listening to another setup or the review will end up being really about the new equipment vs the guys reference setup. Which is another reason I don't like equipment reviews because they can only be judged against the guys reference system or the best system he has had the opportunity to listen to. Which is why I ask people to just go listen to a pair of Thiel or Vandersteen speakers before they spend $15 to $20K on a pair of speakers. Don't even go with the idea you might buy them, just listen to them before buying anything. If a DBT is to even have a chance, the listener should have no idea when or what is being listened to. They should pick what sounds best to them then find out what it was that they preferred later! -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: SB3, GFR-700HD, Thiel 2.3, Second Boom Home Office: SB3, NAD C370, two VSM-1 Home Gym: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, Thiel PowerPoint 1.2 House Portable: SB3, Audioengine A5 Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Expedition: SB3, ToughBook iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Listener;411146 Wrote: An image of a pigeon in your back yard would be evidence. A dead pigeon you collected in your back yard would be evidence. Even pigeon droppings from your back yard would be evidence. Exactly my point. Evidence that proves the existence of the pigeon is easy. You didn't list any examples that would prove the lack of a pigeon to someone who was sure there was one hiding back there somewhere. We don't even see the equivalent of pigeon drooppings in most audio discussions. Again, exactly my point. It's fairly easy to prove that you CAN hear a difference, but people who claim to hear a difference choose not to, throwing the responsibility on others to prove they can't--which as we both demonstrated above, is a much harder task. In fact science produced the theory of Quantum Mechanics in response to experiments and theoretical issues. So what great advances has subjectivist thinking produced? Bad example, you're right. String theory. Many Freudian/Jungian theories. Both at least started out as making up stuff that works out the way we like, and can't be tested. I understand string theory is on the cusp of being testable so I may retract that half. Admittedly I'm no big fan of either. But in their favor, they sure inspired some good science by others, even if they were suspect in their own right. Honestly I think that's the best thing about subjectivists in my opinion. They ask the crazy off-the-wall questions that get things moving in a whole new direction. When it comes to providing answers, they're not so good, unfortunately. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Recent postings in some threads here have stirred up that old hornets nest of blind testing once again. The antagonists have once again set out their uncompromising positions, with no prospect of reaching any kind of shared view. So, at the risk of getting badly stung by the angry hornets, I present here some thoughts that try to find a middle ground. Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin... There exists within the audio enthusiast community two diametrically opposed camps, which for the sake of argument we'll call Objectivists and Subjectivists. What their argument is about we'll come to later. But first, let's summarise what they agree on. Both groups acknowledge that when comparing two similar components (eg. CD players, amplifiers, etc), there are times that a difference is heard when listening sighted, but no difference can be detected when a blind comparison is made. It's in their analysis of why this might be so that the two groups diverge. The Objectivist seems to take the view that since there is no difference in the detectable soundfield (as evidenced by a blind comparison), the difference heard during sighted listening is down to other factors, such as the appearance and feel of the equipment, knowledge of its price and manufacturer, etc. The Objectivist typically considers that to allow oneself to be influenced by these other factors is some kind of character flaw. And here is a curious thing. The Subjectivist thinks exactly the same as the Objectivist: that to allow oneself to be so influenced is a character flaw. They therefore draw the conclusion that the difference heard is not down to any such external factors, but must be due to some problem with the blind comparison methodology that prevents the differences being detected. Why not just accept the fact that external factors do modify what we hear, and it is human nature that it does so? It's only reasonable that the satisfaction in operating an exquisitely finished CD player will enhance the listening experience. There's no shame in it. Objectivists should stop telling people they are deluding themselves when they hear a difference, and Subjectivists should stop insisting that the difference they hear can't be down to these external factors. Then we could all live in harmony, world peace would ensue, blah blah blah... Here's an analogy. You have two servings of food: one is presented artistically and looks nice on the plate; the other is the same but has been pre-cut up, mixed and dumped into a bowl. Once the food is in the mouth, there's no difference, but pretty much everyone would think the nicely presented food tasted better. And I can't imagine that any objective food scientist would question their sanity. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
I think you are missing the point. A-B-X testing, blind or otherwise, as advocated by the (pseudo-)objectivists is a poor way to judge differences between systems, because it is more a test of musical memory than musical perception. For it to be useful, you have to be capable of remembering the A and the B and then comparing these memories to the X. While Mozart is reputed to have heard Allegri's Misere once and then wrote out the score from memory, few normal people can remember more than a few seconds of a musical experience, and then only some aspects of it. Imagine, for example, listening to a minute long guitar solo - several hundred notes, lets say. Now imagine listening to the same musician playing a very similar solo, but changing some notes or some subtleties of phrasing, perhaps in the middle, as musicians do. Now imagine someone playing one of the solos again, and asking you which was which? Bet you couldn't always do it reliably. Doesn't mean they were the same. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;410762 Wrote: A-B-X testing, blind or otherwise, as advocated by the (pseudo-)objectivists is a poor way to judge differences between systems, because it is more a test of musical memory than musical perception. For it to be useful, you have to be capable of remembering the A and the B and then comparing these memories to the X. So if I understand you correctly, you're basically saying that it's impossible to compare two components, sighted or otherwise, to determine whether they sound the same. Is that your position? If it is, then how do explain why someone would think that one component is better than another if they can't even tell whether they are different? Perhaps you might argue that it's not a matter of whether they sound different, but simply whether one gives greater pleasure than the other. In that case, I will point out that ABX is not the only form of blind testing possible. It is entirely feasible for someone to listen to two components A and B many times over (each time A and B might - or might not - swap places), and on each occasion simply say which they prefer. Analysis of the results will show whether there is a statistically meaningful preference for one over the other. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410749 Wrote: Objectivists should stop telling people they are deluding themselves when they hear a difference, and Subjectivists should stop insisting that the difference they hear can't be down to these external factors. Good thoughts! You could apply them on other subjects. The blind testing controversy here reminds me of the discussion between homeopathy and conventional medicine (...which has been going on for the last 200 years, so don't expect harmony too soon. But hope dies last, thanks for posting!) -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Quad;410778 Wrote: Good thoughts! You could apply them on other subjects. The blind testing controversy here reminds me of the discussion between homeopathy and conventional medicine (...which has been going on for the last 200 years, so don't expect harmony too soon. But hope dies last, thanks for posting!) As far as I know only audiophiles have the unusual belief that the placebo effect doesn't apply to them. Don't drag the alternative medicine guys into it, they're with the rest of the world. Make no mistake, the audiophiles are alone. My wife was taught about how the placebo effect works when she took a course on Reiki healing a few years ago. So even Reiki healers accept the placebo effect applies to their so-called New Age practices. But audiophiles don't accept it applies to their hearing. Nuff said! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410775 Wrote: So if I understand you correctly, you're basically saying that it's impossible to compare two components, sighted or otherwise, to determine whether they sound the same. Is that your position? . No it is not my position. I said that A-B-X testing is a poor way of evaluating components, because it is more a test of memory than anything else. It is perfectly possible to compare two components. Do you understand that? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410749 Wrote: Here's an analogy. You have two servings of food: one is presented artistically and looks nice on the plate; the other is the same but has been pre-cut up, mixed and dumped into a bowl. Once the food is in the mouth, there's no difference, but pretty much everyone would think the nicely presented food tasted better. And I can't imagine that any objective food scientist would question their sanity. Not to stir the pot to much, but I find it rather odd that your analogy very much involves SIGHT when your post is about Double Blind Testing. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: SB3, GFR-700HD, Thiel 2.3, Second Boom Home Office: SB3, NAD C370, two VSM-1 Home Gym: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, Thiel PowerPoint 1.2 House Portable: SB3, Audioengine A5 Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Expedition: SB3, ToughBook iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
iPhone;410810 Wrote: Not to stir the pot to much, but I find it rather odd that your analogy very much involves SIGHT when your post is about Double Blind Testing. 1. The word blind in blind testing doesn't refer to having no sense of sight. It's about not knowing the identity of the candidate at hand. Hence you can (and reviewers DO*) have blind tests on televisions. The frame of the television is covered so the tester doesn't know which unit is being looked at. 2. Clive's analogy is pretty good actually. You see a big shiny box with a Linn badge on it and admittedly it looks great. You see a dinky cheap looking box with a Squeezebox badge on it and it looks not so great! It changes the listening experience. Excellent analogy. Darren PS: *Remember what I said about the rest of the world? -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Discussions like this tend to generate more heat than light. Perceptions are personal. Views can differ. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
My main problem with DBT is that it only gives one a snapshot of the sound of the components being tested. By snapshot I mean a very small sampling of the musical spectrum, a one or two minute long snippet of music rather than an overview of how the components may or may not differ when playing other types of music. So if the snippet of music being used in the test contains only strings then the components may appear to sound identical but if the musical snippet had contained a full orchestra perhaps the components would sound different. Another problem with DBT pertains to the synergy between various audio components. Sure there are many people who may scoff at the mere notion of synergy between components but it does exist and can have an enormous effect on the overall sound of an audio system. Bad synergy can make a good piece of equipment sound mediocre whereas good synergy can make a component really sing. With all that being said I still don't know who is worse off: the Subjectivists with their often needlessly expensive equipment, especially cables, interconnects and power cords or the Objectivists with their lossy compressed files and class D power amps. All too often the whole thing turns out to be a lose-lose rather than win-win situation. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
The Blind Testing Controversy There is nothing controversial about blind testing. There is a small groups of audiophiles, plus a few other groups, that have wish to believe in magic more strongly than they wish to believe in science. Since these groups offer nothing in support of rejecting the scientific method other than their dislike of the results there is nothing on which to base a controversy. We all get to choose whether to believe in science or magic and there is nothing controversial about any resulting conflict because the systems of belief are different. The Objectivist typically considers that to allow oneself to be influenced by these other factors is some kind of character flaw. I suspect your Objectivist group might be negligible in size. I cannot recall a posting from someone opposing Subjectivists on these grounds. Can you provide an example or two? What I have seen is lots of opposition to subjectivists making incorrect statements about objective matters due to their belief system. Subjectivists generally believe their perceptions follow from the sound field being changed by an amount their ears are picking up and project this onto audiophile equipment. -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Objectivist typically considers that to allow oneself to be influenced by these other factors is some kind of character flaw. While I obviously can't speak for others, I haven't found that characterization to be at all accurate. In I don't think I've ever encountered that view, despite reading more comments on this debate than I care to admit. In my opinion, perceptual bias is simply a fact - it's part of what makes us human beings. In many ways life would be less interesting without it; certainly it would be totally different. Whether it's how you judge people, taste wine, choose a watch - all of that is extremely subjective and personal. And most of the time, that's perfectly OK. It's just that some of the time, it's not OK. For example, no one wants doctors to be influenced by drug companies in their medical judgments. That's why medical studies are very carefully controlled. And another example is when someone advises you to buy some absurdly overpriced component, because without it you won't have a truly revealing system (or something). Advice like that is both financially damaging to the recipient and liable to leave them permanently unsatisfied with their sound system. OK, it's not the end of the world if some well-off middle aged men (the overwhelming majority of audiophiles) waste some money on a silly pursuit. But it's annoying for those of us that really do care about sound quality, and would like to see the field progress towards superior music reproduction. For that - to make progress on what is after all a very difficult engineering challenge - controls are crucial, and the subjective experiences of people are essentially useless (how many great scientific advances were made because some cult insisted on something in the case of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?). The near-total rejection of the recent Meyer-Moran study on SACD versus Redbook is a perfect example - the industry needs to focus on the areas that matter, and stop getting distracted by mysticism and bogus received wisdom. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
honestguv;410861 Wrote: Can you provide an example or two? Wait a second... honestguv;410861 Wrote: [...] subjectivists making incorrect statements [...] due to their belief system. Ha! Found one. -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
opaqueice;410870 Wrote: In my opinion, perceptual bias is simply a fact - it's part of what makes us human beings. So is expectation bias. -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
