Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
[addressed to Scott] How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Susan: We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. Susan: The only thing which is true of the above statement is that I did suggest it was out of date. Gilberto: I'm not just addressing you. Some of your co-religionists on this forum have used phrases similar to each of the above. Susan: And I suggest that on the basis of God's new revelation. And modern sensibilities seem to be largely in tune with that. The world's reaction to what happened in Bosnia is a reflection of those sensibilities. Sorry, Gilberto. We just disagree and we are going to continue to disagree about this. We can leave it there without misrepresenting what I actually said. Gilberto: By removing the context you misrepresented what I said. To begin with the initial question wasn't addressed to you at all but to Scott. And then you inserted yourself into the conversation speaking for We Bahais. So I addressed the various comments different Bahais have made recently in this forum. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
I don't treat the Bible as one book. This argument is specific to certain commandments. No the argument was in reference to your general position that unlike the Qur'an there is alot of stuff in the Bible which isn't inspired and isn't true. And in any case, it is not clear why you are arguing because you were doubting whether the descriptions in the Bible are historical anyway. Because your argument isn't based on the likely historicity of the massacre in question it is based on the premise that the action was immoral by your own [modern] standards and therefore couldn't have come from God. I'm saying you can't judge past dispensations by such standards and if one did even Islam would not come out looking all that good. I'm not using particularly modern standards of ethics. You don't recognize that you are, I realize. But what you imagine to be perennial are simply not so. Not just my own prophet and book, you guys say you love him with all your heart and love the book too. And I haven't denigrated Him by saying His actions can't be evaluated by projecting our own standards back into history. It isn't a point you've convincingly demonstrated. I realize you are not convinced. Frankly, I don't think all the evidence in the world would convince you because you have made up your mind. There aren't just modern values That's where we differ, so just leave it there and drop the subject. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least oneprophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date.
I don't think it is presumtuous to say "Hey killing folks who areminding their own business is generally wrong" or "stealing is a badthing to do"
Hajir: Since the world has changed and we today are living in a new world per the Most Holy Verse "Open thou thine eyes to behold how a NEW CREATION hath come into being since the year nine (1853)", even the divine rules revealed by God in the Qur'an have been recreated through His new Revelation.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
How do you define "appropriate"? I would suggest we come up with somespecific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, andwhich can be applied in different situations.
Hajir:
This is a great idea. The only criteria and condition that makes sense is God Himself. Since God is beyond our capability to recognize Him, we must look to His Messenger and His Book as what is appropriate, what is right.
Now that the Manifestation of God has come, now that the Book foretold by the Qur'an as the Judge on the Day of Resurrection has appeared, the only right thing, the only appropriate thing, is to be humble before God and follow in His way.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Hajir: This is a great idea. The only criteria and condition that makes sense is God Himself. Since God is beyond our capability to recognize Him, we must look to His Messenger and His Book as what is appropriate, what is right. Ok. I think I understand your position. I've heard it before from other Bahais. But when I look at certain cases I think that view has certain difficulties. A good example would be the issue of slavery. As was brought up before, previous religions permitted slavery. But slavery was not allowed under the shariah of Bahaullah. But well *before* Bahaullah had anything to say about the subject, there were people in the West who looked at the institution of slavery in their own societies, using the values they already had saw something wrong with it, and did what they could to abolish it. So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text. Do you agree? -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text.Hajir:
Makes sense. But it is more than just coincidence, to Baha'is, that all of these changes in human thought (spirit of the age)took place around the time of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. To us, it was all related to the Revelation of God, whichrevolutionize the whole plant.
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Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I don't treat the Bible as one book. This argument is specific to certain commandments. Susan: No the argument was in reference to your general position that unlike the Qur'an there is alot of stuff in the Bible which isn't inspired and isn't true. Gilberto: (thank God for Gmail) This is the larger context of what I said: I think think that there is alot of stuff in the Bible which isn't inspired and isn't true. The genocides in the Old Testament. Paul's varnish over Jesus' message in the New. The theological problems of subsequent Christian theology. The Bible is a flawed book with alot of good stuff in it. It is still possible for Bible-believers to find resources to live saintly lives and be good people. So even in the above, I'm talking about a couple of very specific cases. But at the same time, I also said there is alot of good stuff in it. Gilberto: And in any case, it is not clear why you are arguing because you were doubting whether the descriptions in the Bible are historical anyway. Susan: Because your argument isn't based on the likely historicity of the massacre in question it is based on the premise that the action was immoral by your own [modern] standards Gilberto: The massacres even violated ANCIENT standards for warfare! Even the ancient writer Cicero (who made early contributions to just war theory in the West) would have said that those massacres too far. Susan: and therefore couldn't have come from God. I'm saying you can't judge past dispensations by such standards and if one did even Islam would not come out looking all that good. Gilberto: So I guess the theory of Progressive Revelation is basically the linchpin which allows Bahais to hold their nose. That's why its so important. [..] Gilberto Not just my own prophet and book, you guys say you love him with all your heart and love the book too. Susan: And I haven't denigrated Him by saying His actions can't be evaluated by projecting our own standards back into history. But you (not just Susan) denigrate him by saying he is guilty of genocide and comparing his actions to the Holocaust. Susan: so just leave it there and drop the subject. Gilberto: Ok. You and I shouldn't talk about this unless there is anything significantly new to say. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text. Hajir: Makes sense. But it is more than just coincidence, to Baha'is, that all of these changes in human thought (spirit of the age) took place around the time of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. To us, it was all related to the Revelation of God, which revolutionize the whole plant. Yes, I've heard that before too. I understand that Bahais could see it that way. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto: Ok. You and I shouldn't talk about this unless there is anything significantly new to say. No, I'm saying as list manager we are going to drop the entire thread. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
You don't get the point, do you. Or, you just play dumb. No difference anyhow. One cannot prove a negative. If you want to challenge or disprove Scott's point, all you need to do is to produce just one Jewish person from the banu-Qurayzah tribe. That's all. If you cannot do that, then don't challenge Scott and don't say: we don't know. Now, you go ahead and calm down and take a deep breath, and count to 10, and then find me one Jewish person from the banu-Qurayzah tribe. Otherwise, any other answer is unacceptable. Iskandar On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Iskandar, Calm down. Take a deep breath. Count to 10. Take another deep breath. Count to 10. I never said Banu Qurayzah were still around. But Scott said they were definitely gone. All I said is that he doesn't have a basis for saying that. In a situation like that, the best thing is to say we don't know. That's all I'm trying to get across. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto is willing to hypothesize that, perhaps, the bani-Qurayzah Jews got absorbed into other communities (but he doesn't give you any evidence for that, of course) but he doesn't accept the fact that the banu-Qurayzah got indeed wiped off the face of the earth. This is good. Iskandar On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are no records of the numbers of European Jews who were exterminated in the Nazi camp system - worked to death, liquidated, dead of disease, dead of exposure, dead of brutality, dead by mischance - whatever. There actually are. There are records. On Yom ha Shoah (Holocaust Day) some Jewish organizations actually organize marathons of sorts where people take turn continually reading long lists of names of people who died in the Holocaust. If there were any banu Qurayzah alive after the time of Muhammed, why did none of them return home? On what basis are you saying none of them returned home? One reason they might not come back would be they had made themselves enemies of the Muslim community and so it would have been crazy to go back to Medina. There were other Jewish tribes in the vicinity. Maybe they got absorbed into one of them? I'm not claiming to know for sure. Why do they cease to appear in any records or myth? Again, on what basis are you saying any of this? Do you have some exhaustive knowledge of all human genealogical records and every human myth? Why is it so important to you to claim that Muhammad (saaws) wiped out an entire tribe? Please, don't ever ask me why I think you sound like an Islamophobe. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Well, let's see: someone does a bank robbery somewhere. He is caught and tried and incarcerated. I'd say that's appropriate nowadys, in this day and age. Now, is it appropriate to cut off his hand? Gilberto avoids this question and evades to give an answer. I think he knows that we understand that he knowingly evades. Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to be stoned to death. Is this an appropriate sentence to this day and age? How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Instead what you seem to be doing is taking whatever prejudices and gut feelings you might have, and assuming that these are appropriate in determining what is appropriate or not at any given time. Don't just ask rhetorical questions and assume that the answer is no. If you believe stoning is inappropriate tell me specifically why. And whatever answer you give, you should be sure to explain how your criteria let's you say that stoning is inappropirate, but burning someone alive (the Bahai punishment for arson) is okey-dokey. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Hi, folks, This thread has been closed. Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * Prof. of Sociology * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, Kansas 913-469-8500 x3376 * Fax 913-469-2589 * VOIP 347-983-0161 Mobile 913-768-4244 * http://MarkFoster.net * Office GEB 151D The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Again, all you need to do to prove Scott wrong is to produce one (only one) Jewish person from banu-Qurayzah. You haven't done that. You can't do that. So, just keep quiet. Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Why is it so important to you to claim that Muhammad (saaws) wiped out an entire tribe? Please, don't ever ask me why I think you sound like an Islamophobe. Scott: I am no more a hater of Islam than you are of Christians or Jews. Gilberto: Try to understand what I'm seeing in here. One person likened the actions of Muhammad to Milosevic and you are accusing Muhammad of genocide and comparing what was done to Banu Qurayzah (unfavorably) with the Holocaust. And I would actually respect your claims if they were based on evidence and knowledge but you aren't actually providing real information. You are just making claims, occasionally parroting what Susan says. And getting basic facts mixed up. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: change in morality Re: Interesting thread
Another memorable post for the hall of fame of rubbish and non-sensical comments. Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How did they change? (I don't mean, what was the change?, I mean What was the process by which they changed?) Dear Gilberto, I consider the Will of God to be the basis of all morality. That Will is expressed through revelation. And it was revealed through Baha'u'llah that would be no more genocide, burning of books or shunning of other religious communities. And He explicitly mentioned the incident involving the Banu Qurayzah in this context. Muhammad marrying Aishah was a unique event. I don't think so. I think child marriages weren't all that uncommon then. You don't understand. I didn't say child marriages are unique. I said the specific action of Muhammad (saaws) the prophet marrying Aishah (ra) the mother of the believers was a unique event. If I had a daughter who was nine and some guy came around trying to propose marriage, that would be a different event and there are reasonable considerations which would allow a good orthodox Muslim to say Hell no! you must be crazy while accepting the marriage of the prophet to Aishah. That's what I'm saying. realize that Muslims take the opposite position. Where do you get that from? We've already had this discussion before. Our society is different now. I don't think a Muslim needs to convert to the Bahai faith to be able to say that today maybe people should get married at an older age than they did 1000 years ago. You may not think so but those calling the shots in Islamic governments take the opposite position. Firstly, Islam isn't defined by the policies of Islamic governments. If they prophet married a girl at a certain age, then that should be the age of majority for girls. You are oversimplifying. In principle, maturity begins with puberty, although there are at times upper and lower limits to address the problems of late bloomers and early starters (respectively). If you imagine ethics and morality as divorced from time and place, that would certainly be the logical conclusion. You are being really insulting. Age isn't the only consideration in marriage. If Muhammad treated a nine-year old girl as an adult, then this should be the age of majority for women for all time. I think you have a really crude idea about Islamic law. Scholars who arrive at legal rulings ideally take into account many different considerations before evaluating an action. It is not my idea about Islamic law. It is the position which has been taken by the Iranian government. Would you like me to show you the documentation? Islam is defined by the Quran and the sunnah not by the policies of the Iranian government. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Dear Susan, Gilberto is hell bent on misrepresenting you, Khazeh, Scott, and others. He is not going to stop doing that. It's just totally pointless to try to reason with him because he has left his mind and reasoning power somewhere in the 7th century on some desert. Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: [addressed to Scott] How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Susan: We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. Susan: The only thing which is true of the above statement is that I did suggest it was out of date. Gilberto: I'm not just addressing you. Some of your co-religionists on this forum have used phrases similar to each of the above. Susan: And I suggest that on the basis of God's new revelation. And modern sensibilities seem to be largely in tune with that. The world's reaction to what happened in Bosnia is a reflection of those sensibilities. Sorry, Gilberto. We just disagree and we are going to continue to disagree about this. We can leave it there without misrepresenting what I actually said. Gilberto: By removing the context you misrepresented what I said. To begin with the initial question wasn't addressed to you at all but to Scott. And then you inserted yourself into the conversation speaking for We Bahais. So I addressed the various comments different Bahais have made recently in this forum. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Look, we are dropping the thread folks. Gilberto gets to have the last word. So he gets one more post and then we shut the thread down. No one else should be posting on it at this point. Let's get back to the list purpose which is Baha'i Studies not Baha'i-Muslim apologetics. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Don't worry, Susan. He will always have the last word; just like his Prophet is the last Prophet. Warm regards, Iskandar On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Susan Maneck wrote: Look, we are dropping the thread folks. Gilberto gets to have the last word. So he gets one more post and then we shut the thread down. No one else should be posting on it at this point. Let's get back to the list purpose which is Baha'i Studies not Baha'i-Muslim apologetics. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't worry, Susan. He will always have the last word; just like his Prophet is the last Prophet. I think it is fine to drop the thread. I've basically said my peace for a while. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
Yes, I'd say cooperate also.
I'm not "academic", but I feel good in this forum, but please do not revolve persistently in the same topic.
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Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Biblical and in modern terms, killing all the men, taking the women as concubines and wives and raising the children as members of the conquering tribe, certainly matches the definition for genocide. Gilberto: I'm finding myself having less and less positive feelings about the conversation and where you seem to be pushing the conversation. Islamic rules for warfare strove to protect non-combatants and to allow the conflict to de-escalate. The Biblical OT rules simply did not do that. That is a real difference. You may think it is a small difference. I don't. Scott: No need to take it personally, Gilberto. You didn't do any of it. Gilberto: No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style of your (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet another example of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while at the same time try to delegitimize it. If Banu Qurayzah was under Muhammad's (saaws) watch and you believe Muhamad was a Manifestation of God, then even if the religion of Islam never existed, Bahais should have to come to terms with explaining the ethics and morality of such an action. But that's not the route Bahais take. Instead Bahais tend to argue that it was under a different law and a different situation, as if the moral value of a human life was different now and then. Scott: I agree that the jurisprudence of the affair was probably according to the laws of the tribes. However, I notice that when discussing these things it is a tendency for you to put things in modern terms. I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Could you be more precise about what you are trying to say? And in modern terms there is no difference between the fate of the rebelling tribe in that instance and the fate of the rebelling tribe of Bosnians at the hands of Serbians. You are mixing apples and oranges. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto:No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style ofyour (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet anotherexample of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while atthe same time try to delegitimize it.
Hajir:
Gilberto, you're not getting the point.
We are drawing a comparison between the verses in Deuteronomy and the Qur'an.
It is amazing that you are okay about making Christians look bad, but when there are similar verses it the Qur'an, you are quick to 'interpret' it away.
We are actually not degrading the Qur'an or deligitimizing it by bring up the point.
We are try to help you reanalyze Deuteronomy so you can reinterpret it in a good light.
Though Baha'is have our own Book, we still interpret the writings in all Holy Books in a positive light. It is unfortunate that your brand of Islam cannot do that, it seems like you are intimidated by the other Holy Books. There is nothing to be afraid of, you can make positive statements about the Bible without undermining the Qur'an.
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banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They agreed on their own judge (who was not the prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't genocide. Dear Gilberto, By 'spared' you mean the women and children were sold into slavery. In Bosnia it was mostly the men who were killed as well while they women were raped (which is the fate of most female slaves.) And what happened in Bosnia is considered genocide. So by modern definitions, what would be the difference? Or is it perhaps the case that we can't always judge past events by modern standards? In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocide came up in the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. The Israelites believed they had a divine commandment, a God-given policy, to kill entire populations without sparing women and children, without sparing the old or the clergy, without even giving them an opportunity to surrender peacfully, or even convert. That's the behavior I'm talking about, and that's what I mean by genocide in this discussion. If you come along later with a weaker more inclusive modern definition of genocide in order to try to argue that sometimes genocide is okay, that would be a distortion. And comparison with the Bosnian genocide is really inappropriate. Here is a description from Karen Armstrong of some of the issues involving Banu Qurayzah: On Muhammad's treatment of Banu Qurayzah, a Jewish tribe Karen Armstrong There then ensued desperate days for the ummah. Muhammad had to contend with the hostility of some of the pagans in Medina, who resented the power of the Muslim newcomers and were determined to expel them from the settlement. He also had to deal with Mecca, where Abu Sufyan now directed the campaign against him, and had launched two major offensives against the Muslims in Medina. His object was not simply to defeat the ummah in battle, but to annihilate all the Muslims. The harsh ethic of the desert meant that there were no half-measures in warfare: if possible, a victorious chief was expected to exterminate the enemy, so the ummah faced the threat of total extinction. In 625 Mecca inflicted a severe defeat on the ummah at the Battle of Uhud, but two years later the Muslims trounced the Meccans at the Battle of the Trench, so called because Muhammad protected the settlement by digging a ditch around Medina, which threw the Quraysh, who still regarded war rather as a chivalric game and had never heard of such an unsporting trick, into confusion, and rendered their cavalry useless. Muhammad's second victory over the numerically superior Quraysh (there had been ten thousand Meccans to three thousand Muslims) was a turning point. It convinced the nomadic tribes that Muhammad was the coming man, and made the Quraysh look decidedly passe. The gods in whose name they fought were clearly not working on their behalf. Many of the tribes wanted to become the allies of the ummah, and Muhammad began to build a powerful tribal confederacy, whose members swore not to attack one another and to fight each other's enemies. Some of the Meccans also began to defect and made the hijrah to Medina; at last, after five years of deadly peril, Muhammad could be confident that the ummah would survive. In Medina, the chief casualties of this Muslim success were the three Jewish tribes of Qaynuqah, Nadir and Qurayzah, who were determined to destroy Muhammad and who all independently formed alliances with Mecca. They had powerful armies, and obviously posed a threat to the Muslims, since their territory was so situated that they could easily join a besieging Meccan army or attack the ummah from the rear. When the Qaynuqah staged an unsuccessful rebellion against Muhammad in 625, they were expelled from Medina, in accordance with Arab custom. Muhammad tried to reassure the Nadir, and made a special treaty with them, but when he discovered that they had been plotting to assassinate him they too were sent into exile, where they joined the nearby Jewish settlement of Khaybar, and drummed up support for Abu Sufyan among the northern Arab tribes. The Nadir proved to be even more of a danger outside Medina, so when the Jewish tribe of Qurayzah sided with Mecca during the Battle of the Trench, when for a time it seemed that the Muslims faced certain defeat, Muhammad showed no mercy. The seven hundred men of the Qurayzah were killed, and their women and children sold as slaves. The massacre of the Qurayzah was a horrible incident, but it would be a mistake to judge it by the standards of our own time. This was a very primitive society: the Muslims themselves had just narrowly escaped extermination, and had Muhammad simply
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread (al Kahf)
Dear Gilberto, Salaamun 'Alaikum... I was reading the Qur'an today and I came across the story of Khidr and Musa(as) in Suratul Kahf. How would you explain theslaying of the young child? I would love to hear your thoughts. MonderGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "They agreed on their own judge (who was not the prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't genocide." Dear Gilberto, By 'spared' you mean the women and children were sold into slavery. In Bosnia it was mostly the men who were killed as well while they women were raped (which is the fate of most female slaves.) And what happened in Bosnia is considered genocide. So by modern definitions, what would be the difference? Or is it perhaps the case that we can't always judge past events by modern standards?In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine thingsis inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocid! e came up inthe contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based onconstant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I saidthat the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. The Israelitesbelieved they had a divine commandment, a God-given policy, to killentire populations without sparing women and children, without sparingthe old or the clergy, without even giving them an opportunity tosurrender peacfully, or even convert. That's the behavior I'm talkingabout, and that's what I mean by "genocide" in this discussion.If you come along later with a weaker more inclusive "modern"definition of "genocide" in order to try to argue that sometimesgenocide is okay, that would be a distortion. And comparison with theBosnian genocide is really inappropriate.Here is a description from Karen Armstrong of some of the issuesinvolving Banu Qurayzah:On Muhammad's treatmentof Banu Qurayzah, a Jewish tribeKaren ArmstrongThere then ensued desperate days for the ummah. Muhammad had tocontend with the hostility of some of the pagans in Medina, whoresented the power of the Muslim newcomers and were determined toexpel them from the settlement. He also had to deal with Mecca, whereAbu Sufyan now directed the campaign against him, and had launched twomajor offensives against the Muslims in Medina. His object was notsimply to defeat the ummah in battle, but to annihilate all theMuslims. The harsh ethic of the desert meant that there were nohalf-measures in warfare: if possible, a victorious chief was expectedto exterminate the enemy, so the ummah faced the threat of totalextinction. In 625 Mecca inflicted a severe defeat on the ummah at theBattle of Uhud, but two years later the Muslims trounced the Meccansat the Battle of the Trench, so called because Muhammad protected thesettlement by digging a ditch aro! und Medina, which threw the Quraysh,who still regarded war rather as a chivalric game and had never heardof such an unsporting trick, into confusion, and rendered theircavalry useless. Muhammad's second victory over the numericallysuperior Quraysh (there had been ten thousand Meccans to threethousand Muslims) was a turning point. It convinced the nomadic tribesthat Muhammad was the coming man, and made the Quraysh look decidedlypasse. The gods in whose name they fought were clearly not working ontheir behalf. Many of the tribes wanted to become the allies of theummah, and Muhammad began to build a powerful tribal confederacy,whose members swore not to attack one another and to fight eachother's enemies. Some of the Meccans also began to defect and made thehijrah to Medina; at last, after five years of deadly peril, Muhammadcould be confident that the ummah would survive.In Medina, the chief casualties of this Muslim su! ccess were the threeJewish tribes of Qaynuqah, Nadir and Qurayzah, who were determined todestroy Muhammad and who all independently formed alliances withMecca. They had powerful armies, and obviously posed a threat to theMuslims, since their territory was so situated that they could easilyjoin a besieging Meccan army or attack the ummah from the rear. Whenthe Qaynuqah staged an unsuccessful rebellion against Muhammad in 625,they were expelled from Medina, in accordance with Arab custom. Muhammad tried to reassure the Nadir, and made a special treaty withthem, but when he discovered that they had been plotting toassassinate him they too were sent into exile, where they joined thenearby Jewish settlement of Khaybar, and drummed up support for AbuSufyan among the northern Arab tribes. The Nadir proved to be evenmore of a danger outside Medina, so when the Jewish tribe of Qurayzahsided with Mecca during the Battle of the Trench,! when for a time itseemed that the Muslims faced certain defeat, Muhammad showed nomercy. The seven hundred men of the Qurayzah were killed, and theirwomen and children sold as slaves.The massacre of the Qurayzah was a
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread (al Kahf)
On 10/27/05, Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, Salaamun 'Alaikum... I was reading the Qur'an today and I came across the story of Khidr and Musa(as) in Suratul Kahf. How would you explain the slaying of the young child? I would love to hear your thoughts. Monder I would look to the Quran's answer. What did Khidr tell Musa when *he* asked the question? Basically Khidr had special knowledge of the situation and knew the specific consequences of his actions. But the actions (in fact, all of those questionable actions of Khidr in that surah) are still evaluated by the same basic values. It's like the old riddle.. what if you could go back in time and had a chance to kill a child who you *knew* was going to grow up to murder large numbers of people. Would you do it? If that was the only way to save those lives, such an action would probably be justified. But humans have that kind of knowledge with the appropriate degree of certainly only in *rare* situations if ever. But I would NOT say that the rules changed for different periods of time. What happened is that the same basic values (in this case, sanctity of life) can lead to different actions in different situations. Peace Gilberto Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck wrote: They agreed on their own judge (who was not the prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't genocide. Dear Gilberto, By 'spared' you mean the women and children were sold into slavery. In Bosnia it was mostly the men who were killed as well while they women were raped (which is the fate of most female slaves.) And what happened in Bosnia is considered genocide. So by modern definitions, what would be the difference? Or is it perhaps the case that we can't always judge past events by modern standards? In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocid! e came up in the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. The Israelites believed they had a divine commandment, a God-given policy, to kill entire populations without sparing women and children, without sparing the old or the clergy, without even giving them an opportunity to surrender peacfully, or even convert. That's the behavior I'm talking about, and that's what I mean by genocide in this discussion. If you come along later with a weaker more inclusive modern definition of genocide in order to try to argue that sometimes genocide is okay, that would be a distortion. And comparison with the Bosnian genocide is really inappropriate. Here is a description from Karen Armstrong of some of the issues involving Banu Qurayzah: On Muhammad's treatment of Banu Qurayzah, a Jewish tribe Karen Armstrong There then ensued desperate days for the ummah. Muhammad had to contend with the hostility of some of the pagans in Medina, who resented the power of the Muslim newcomers and were determined to expel them from the settlement. He also had to deal with Mecca, where Abu Sufyan now directed the campaign against him, and had launched two major offensives against the Muslims in Medina. His object was not simply to defeat the ummah in battle, but to annihilate all the Muslims. The harsh ethic of the desert meant that there were no half-measures in warfare: if possible, a victorious chief was expected to exterminate the enemy, so the ummah faced the threat of total extinction. In 625 Mecca inflicted a severe defeat on the ummah at the Battle of Uhud, but two years later the Muslims trounced the Meccans at the Battle of the Trench, so called because Muhammad protected the settlement by digging a ditch aro! und Medina, which threw the Quraysh, who still regarded war rather as a chivalric game and had never heard of such an unsporting trick, into confusion, and rendered their cavalry useless. Muhammad's second victory over the numerically superior Quraysh (there had been ten thousand Meccans to three thousand Muslims) was a turning point. It convinced the nomadic tribes that Muhammad was the coming man, and made the Quraysh look decidedly passe. The gods in whose name they fought were clearly not working on their behalf. Many of the tribes wanted to become the allies of the ummah, and Muhammad began to build a powerful tribal confederacy, whose members swore not to attack one another and to fight each other's enemies. Some of the Meccans also began to defect and made the hijrah to Medina; at last, after five years of deadly peril, Muhammad could be confident that the ummah would survive. In Medina, the chief casualties of this Muslim su! ccess were the three Jewish tribes of Qaynuqah, Nadir and Qurayzah,
RE: Interesting thread
If Banu Qurayzah was under Muhammad's (saaws) watch and you believe Muhamad was a Manifestation of God, then even if the religion of Islam never existed, Bahais should have to come to terms with explaining the ethics and morality of such an action. But that's not the route Bahais take. Instead Bahais tend to argue that it was under a different law and a different situation, as if the moral value of a human life was different now and then. The ethics and morality of the situation *were* different then. Both as a Baha'i and as a historian I realize I can't project my own values back on the far past. I don't think Muhammad was guilty of any sin because He married a young girl. But if that was done today I would condemn it. I realize that Muslims take the opposite position. If Muhammad treated a nine-year old girl as an adult, then this should be the age of majority for women for all time. Therefore in Iran it is legal to execute girls that age by hanging. I think that is just wrong. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocide came up in the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. Dear Gilberto, I'm suggesting that your basic thesis is wrong. The fact of the matter is that we dont' know much about which ethical values have been constant over history and whether or not the Israelites received a commandment to kill these people. Nor do I think we can project our present day values back on Biblical times anymore than I think we should project them back on Qur'anic times. The truth is that our concept of what constitutes genocide has changed over time and by modern standards Muhammad would have been as guilty of genocide as the people of the OT. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread (al Kahf)
Dear Gilberto, Thank you for your insights and for the reminder of what the Qur'an says. I very much agree ith all that you said. Our insignificant minds can never unravel nor comprehend His Wisdom. Your BrotherGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/27/05, Monder M Zbaeda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Dear Gilberto, Salaamun 'Alaikum... I was reading the Qur'an today and I came across the story of Khidr and Musa(as) in Suratul Kahf. How would you explain the slaying of the young child? I would love to hear your thoughts. MonderI would look to the Quran's answer. What did Khidr tell Musa when *he*asked the question? Basically Khidr had special knowledge of thesituation and knew the specific consequences of his actions. But theactions (in fact, all of those "questionable" actions of Khidr in thatsurah) are still evaluated by the same basic values.It's like the old riddle.. what if you could go back in time and had achance to kill a child who you *knew* was going to grow up to murderlarge numbers of people. Would you do it? I! f that was the only way tosave those lives, such an action would probably be justified. Buthumans have that kind of knowledge with the appropriate degree ofcertainly only in *rare* situations if ever.But I would NOT say that the rules changed for different periods oftime. What happened is that the same basic values (in this case,sanctity of life) can lead to different actions in differentsituations.PeaceGilberto Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck wrote: "They agreed on their own judge (who was not the prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't genocide." Dear Gilberto, By 'spared' you mean the women and children were sold into slavery. In Bosnia it was mostly the men who! were killed as well while they women were raped (which is the fate of most female slaves.) And what happened in Bosnia is considered genocide. So by modern definitions, what would be the difference? Or is it perhaps the case that we can't always judge past events by modern standards? In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocid! e came up in the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. The Israelites believed they had a divine commandment, a God-given policy, to kill entire populations without sparing women and children, without sparing the old or the clergy, without even giving them an opportunity to surrender pe! acfully, or even convert. That's the behavior I'm talking about, and that's what I mean by "genocide" in this discussion. If you come along later with a weaker more inclusive "modern" definition of "genocide" in order to try to argue that sometimes genocide is okay, that would be a distortion. And comparison with the Bosnian genocide is really inappropriate. Here is a description from Karen Armstrong of some of the issues involving Banu Qurayzah: On Muhammad's treatment of Banu Qurayzah, a Jewish tribe Karen Armstrong There then ensued desperate days for the ummah. Muhammad had to contend with the hostility of some of the pagans in Medina, who resented the power of the Muslim newcomers and were determined to expel them from the settlement. He also had to deal with Mecca, where Abu Sufyan now directed the campa! ign against him, and had launched two major offensives against the Muslims in Medina. His object was not simply to defeat the ummah in battle, but to annihilate all the Muslims. The harsh ethic of the desert meant that there were no half-measures in warfare: if possible, a victorious chief was expected to exterminate the enemy, so the ummah faced the threat of total extinction. In 625 Mecca inflicted a severe defeat on the ummah at the Battle of Uhud, but two years later the Muslims trounced the Meccans at the Battle of the Trench, so called because Muhammad protected the settlement by digging a ditch aro! und Medina, which threw the Quraysh, who still regarded war rather as a chivalric game and had never heard of such an unsporting trick, into confusion, and rendered their cavalry useless. Muhammad's second victory over the numerically superior Quraysh (there had been ten th! ousand Meccans to three thousand Muslims) was a turning point. It convinced the nomadic tribes that Muhammad was the coming man, and made the Quraysh look decidedly passe. The gods in whose name they fought were clearly not working on their behalf. Many of the tribes wanted to become the allies of the ummah, and Muhammad began to build a powerful tribal confederacy, whose members swore not to attack one another and to fight each other's enemies. Some of the Meccans also began to defect and made the hijrah to Medina; at last, after five years of deadly
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style of your (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet another example of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while at the same time try to delegitimize it. Hajir: Gilberto, you're not getting the point. We are drawing a comparison between the verses in Deuteronomy and the Qur'an. Gilberto: I understand that. That's what I'm refering to. And from my perspective, there are significant differences between the two which is what you don't seem to get. Hajir: It is amazing that you are okay about making Christians look bad, but when there are similar verses it the Qur'an, you are quick to 'interpret' it away. A couple of things. First, I'm not trying to make Christians look bad. I not worried that Christians are going to suddenly go off on some genocidal campaign against the Amalekites and Phillistines in 2005. Im just reading what the Bible says and trying to explain to you why I don't believe those particular passages come from God. Secondly, it shouldn't be amazing that I'm actually trying to make sense of the Quran in a way which is applicable today. Why shouldn't I? I'm Muslim. What do you expect me to do? Thirdly, I don't think you individually are necessarily guilty of this but I think this attempt to equate the Biblical and Quranic rules of warfare strikes me as self serving. Bahais tend to say, for instance that Bahaullah abolished holy war but when I've pointed out that the Bahai texts which justify righteous warfare Bahais are eager to try to seperate the Bahai stance from the Muslim. (Some seemed even offended at the comparison) Islam's rules about warfare are basically consistent with current notions of just war. While if you just read the book of Joshua you would see how radically different the OT view was. We are actually not degrading the Qur'an or deligitimizing it by bring up the point. Do you believe it is valid to apply the Quranic rules on warfare today? We are try to help you reanalyze Deuteronomy so you can reinterpret it in a good light. If you want to do that, then you should explain how the genocides commanded in Deuteronomy and executed in Joshua (among other places) are consistent with basic rules about moral behavior. Don't just try to argue that the Quran says the same thing. Better yet, justify the genocides in Deuteronomy in terms of the values preached by the Bahai faith. Though Baha'is have our own Book, we still interpret the writings in all Holy Books in a positive light. I just try to see all the books as they are. Positive and negative. It is unfortunate that your brand of Islam cannot do that, it seems like you are intimidated by the other Holy Books. Firstly I don't have a brand of Islam. Actually Islam has very little to do with this particular point. I was raised Christian and went to church and read the Bible. And even before being Muslim, this was one of the aspects of Biblical Christianity which clearly bothered me and made me not want to be a Christian. I don't know where you are getting the idea that I'm intimidated by other holy books. I love learning about different religions. In addition to having read alot about Islam and mainstream Christianity, I've read many of the non-canonical Judeo-Christian scriptures, the Tao Te Ching, Chunang Tzu, the I Ching, books of the Buddha's sermons, stuff on Zen, Bahai materials, materials on Santeria. the Upanishads (although I guess it was probably abbriged) I have the Bhagavad Gita on my shelf (but I have to confess I've only picked at it) There is nothing to be afraid of, you can make positive statements about the Bible without undermining the Qur'an. I think you are totally misreading me. I think there is alot of good stuff in the Bible. That was the point I was making in an earlier discussion remember? That there is enough of the Gospel/Injeel in the New Testament for Christians to say that they have it. But saying that there is alot of good in the Bible doesn't mean there is nothing bad in it. All Im saying is that genocide is one of them. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocide came up in the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. Dear Gilberto, I'm suggesting that your basic thesis is wrong. What do you think my thesis is? The fact of the matter is that we dont' know much about which ethical values have been constant over history and whether or not the Israelites received a commandment to kill these people. What do you even mean by that. If you aren't even sure if the Israelites received those commands (which are clearly contained in Deuteronomy) why argue tooth-and-nail that those commandments are justified? If you really aren't claiming to know you should have said that in the beginning. Nor do I think we can project our present day values back on Biblical times anymore than I think we should project them back on Qur'anic times. I would say that a set of values worthy of the name values actually *can* be applied that way. However, those values can be applied in ways which are sensitive to different situations and circumstances which may have existed in different societies. The truth is that our concept of what constitutes genocide has changed over time and by modern standards Muhammad would have been as guilty of genocide as the people of the OT. Firstly, you are still ignoring the point. I specifically explained what I meant by genocide and what I am refering to as genocide for the purposes of this particular discussion is different from what was done to Banu Qurayzah. Secondly, You are totally ignoring the explanation given by Karen Armstrong. There are specific reasons for why the particular actions taken against Banu Qurayzah saved lives. The basic principle, the basic value which is being applied in that situation is the idea of self-defense. Thirdly, please don't ever ever say that you love and respect Islam and Muhammad if you are going to equate Muhammad with Milosevic. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Dear Gilberto,
I really like the fact that you've provided Karen Armstrong's explanation of the account of Banu Qurayzah; I have a suggestion, though. We've long passed the line of scholarly debate and are into the realm of what seems to me purely apologetics, and under these circumstances, I think we can all understand how we'd ALL be self-serving (as you've identified some arguments). Aside from the fact that I think we're having a virtually fruitless conversation here, I just want to add that if we are going to include explanations of history so that we can better understand the circumstances in which the events happened (such as provided by Karen Armstrong), we should also be prepared to hunt down and find those same types of writings that help to understand the biblical accounts that we are referring to as genocide. I have a strong suspicion they're out there, though I don't, myself, have the time to hunt them down. I'm sure there are biblical scholars that can help us understand the historical circumstances that can help put the event into proper perspective.
The other thing I found interesting about the particular quote you provided is that Armstrong actually uses the phrase, the harsh ethics of the desert, which seems to acknowledge that the ethics of warfare at the time (or, at that place) were in fact different there than elsewhere.
Just some thoughts,
Ben
On 10/27/05, Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this particular context, the way you are trying to redefine things
is inappropriate to the larger issue. The issue of genocide came up in the contex of talking about how moral decisions can be made based on constant ethical values and principles. And in that context, I said
that the Biblical genocides were clearly wrong. Dear Gilberto, I'm suggesting that your basic thesis is wrong.What do you think my thesis is? The fact of thematter is that we dont' know much about which ethical valueshave been constant over history and whether or not theIsraelites received a commandment to kill these people.
What do you even mean by that. If you aren't even sure if theIsraelites received those commands (which are clearly contained inDeuteronomy) why argue tooth-and-nail that those commandments arejustified? If you really aren't claiming toknow you should have said
that in the beginning. Nor do I think we can project our present day values back on Biblical times anymore than I think we should project them back on Qur'anic times.I would say that a set of values worthy of the name values actually
*can* be applied that way. However, those values can be applied inways which are sensitive to different situations and circumstanceswhich may have existed in different societies. The truth is that our concept of what constitutes genocide has
changed over time and by modern standards Muhammad would have been as guilty of genocide as the people of the OT.Firstly, you are still ignoring the point. I specifically explainedwhat I meant by genocide and what I am refering to as genocide for
the purposes of this particular discussion is different from what wasdone to Banu Qurayzah.Secondly, You are totally ignoring the explanation given by KarenArmstrong. There are specific reasons for why the particular actions
taken against Banu Qurayzah saved lives. The basic principle, thebasic value which is being applied in that situation is the idea ofself-defense.Thirdly, please don't ever ever say that you love and respect Islam
and Muhammad if you are going to equate Muhammad with Milosevic.-GilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
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Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: In Biblical and in modern terms, killing all the men, taking the women as concubines and wives and raising the children as members of the conquering tribe, certainly matches the definition for genocide.Gilberto: I'm finding myself having less and less positive feelings about the conversation and where you seem to be pushing the conversation. Islamic rules for warfare strove to protect non-combatants and to allow the conflict to de-escalate. The Biblical OT rules simply did not do that. That is a real difference. You may think it is a small difference. I don't.Scott: No need to take it personally, Gilberto. You didn't do any of it.Gilberto:No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style ofyour (colle!
ctively,
not individually) seems like it is yet anotherexample of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while atthe same time try to delegitimize it.If Banu Qurayzah was under Muhammad's (saaws) "watch" and you believeMuhamad was a Manifestation of God, then even if the religion of Islamnever existed, Bahais should have to come to terms with explaining theethics and morality of such an action. But that's not the route Bahaistake. Instead Bahais tend to argue that it was under a different lawand a different situation, as if the moral value of a human life wasdifferent now and then.
Scott in reply:
The moral value of life WAS different then than now.
Scott: I agree that the jurisprudence of the affair was probably according to the laws of the tribes. However, I notice that when discussing these things it is a tendency for you to put things in modern terms.I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Could you be moreprecise about what you are trying to say? And in modern terms there is no difference between the fate of the rebelling tribe in that instance and the fate of the rebelling tribe of Bosnians at the hands of Serbians.You are mixing apples and oranges.-Gilberto
Scott in reply:
No, you are refusing to admit that apples and oranges are different.
Regards,
Scott
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RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
I'm suggesting that your basic thesis is wrong. What do you think my thesis is? Dear Gilberto, That ethical principles and values have been constant over time. If you aren't even sure if the Israelites received those commands (which are clearly contained in Deuteronomy) why argue tooth-and-nail that those commandments are justified? I didn't argue that point 'tooth and nail.' I *am* arguing that we can't disallow the possibility those commands *did* come from God because according to present day standards we find them distasteful. I would say that a set of values worthy of the name values actually *can* be applied that way. That's the the thesis I'm disputing. I specifically explained what I meant by genocide and what I am refering to as genocide for the purposes of this particular discussion is different from what was done to Banu Qurayzah. Yes, I understand that you are defining genocide in a way that would include what the OT represents God as commanding and exclude what Muhammad did. I find that too convenient. Secondly, You are totally ignoring the explanation given by Karen Armstrong. No, I'm not. I understand all the possible explanations just as I can understand the possible explanations for eliminating the Canaanites. There are specific reasons for why the particular actions taken against Banu Qurayzah saved lives. The same could be said for the Canaanites who practiced baby sacrifices. Thirdly, please don't ever ever say that you love and respect Islam and Muhammad if you are going to equate Muhammad with Milosevic. I don't. As I said, I don't project modern values back to pre-modern times. But if anyone today did what Muhammad did, I would accuse them of genocide and I suspect you would too. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
Dear Scott,
I find your posts
really hard to follow. Is it possible for you to put your immediate responses at
the top rather than the bottom of your posts?
warmest, Susan
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Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Benjamin La Framboise [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, Aside from the fact that I think we're having a virtually fruitless conversation here, Yes. Benjamin: I just want to add that if we are going to include explanations of history so that we can better understand the circumstances in which the events happened (such as provided by Karen Armstrong), we should also be prepared to hunt down and find those same types of writings that help to understand the biblical accounts that we are referring to as genocide. Yes, I've seen alot of those materials looking at this from the Christian's side. I have a strong suspicion they're out there, though I don't, myself, have the time to hunt them down. I have looked at arguments on the other side and personally didn't find them convincing. The other thing I found interesting about the particular quote you provided is that Armstrong actually uses the phrase, the harsh ethics of the desert, which seems to acknowledge that the ethics of warfare at the time (or, at that place) were in fact different there than elsewhere. Just some thoughts, Thanks. I appreciate the content and the tone. I don't have a problem with the idea that one might formulate different rules for different kinds of situations. (a life boat, a prison, a school, a battlefield, a desert) And I think your parenthetical remark is on target. I don't think the values should be time dependent. But I don't have a problem seeing how they depend on the situation itself. Peace gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/27/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto: No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style of your (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet another example of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while at the same time try to delegitimize it. Hajir: Gilberto, you're not getting the point. We are drawing a comparison between the verses in Deuteronomy and the Qur'an.Gilberto:I understand that. That's what I'm refering to.And from my perspective, there are significant differences between thetwo which is what you don't seem to get. Gilberto, We get that you are trying to draw distinctions, but you are trying to draw modern distinctions and THEN paling before applying those same modern standards to the Banu Quraysh. By modern standards BOTH are genocidal. Modern standards just don't work in this way.Hajir: It is amazing that you are okay about making Christians look bad, but when there are similar verses it the Qur'an, you are quick to 'interpret' it away.A couple of things. First, I'm not trying to make Christians look bad.I not worried that Christians are going to suddenly go off on somegenocidal campaign against the Amalekites and Phillistines in 2005.I"m just reading what the Bible says and trying to explain to you whyI don't believe those particular passages come from God.Secondly, it shouldn't be amazing that I'm actually trying to makesense of the Quran in a way which is applicable today. Why shouldn'tI? I'm Muslim. What do you expect me to do? - Reply: You can make the Qur'an applicable today by understanding that the times of the Prophet were different than the times of today. As Susan pointed out: Is it correct to hang a nine year old girl for crimes in Iran today simply because Muhammed married one particular nine year old girl back then? This is a result of trying to make the Qur'an the rule for conditions today. It does not always work and the motives of application can be suspect. - Gilberto: Thirdly, I don't think you individually are necessarily guilty of thisbut I think this attempt to equate the Biblical and Quranic rules ofwarfare strikes me as self serving.Bahais tend to say, for instance that Bahaullah abolished "holy war"but when I've pointed out that the Bahai texts which justify"righteous warfare" Bahais are eager to try to seperate the Bahaistance from the Muslim. (Some seemed even offended at the comparison)Islam's rules about warfare are basically consistent with currentnotions of "just war". While if you just read the book of Joshua youwould see how radically different the OT view was. --- Reply: Righteous warfare is different in definition by Baha`i standards than "Holy War". And by modern standards a united front against aggressors is morally correct. The principle was well used in the original Gulf War and badly used in the Second Gulf War. In neither instance were the individuals fighting the war aware of, or bound by the Baha`i concept of "righteous warfare". -Do you believe it is valid to apply the Quranic rules on warfare today? - Reply: In a word, no. --- GilbertoIf you want to do that, then you should explain how the genocidescommanded in Deuteronomy and executed in Joshua (among other places)are consistent with basic rules about moral behavior. = Reply: I do not know if Deuteronomical excesses were at the command of God or not. I cannot trust the chronicler in this particular instance. I think the purpose of the Prophet is to warn, and the chronicle cited WARNS. -- Gilberto:Don't just try to argue that the Quran says the same thing. Betteryet, justify the genocides in Deuteronomy in terms of the valuespreached by the Bahai faith. --- Reply: Why??? --- Though Baha'is have our own Book, we still interpret the writings in all Holy Books in a positive light.I just try to see all the books as they are. Positive and negative. --- But you never change your point of view a whit. -- It is unfortunate that your brand of Islam cannot do that, it seems like you are intimidated by the other Holy Books.Firstly I don't have a brand of Islam. Actually Islam has very littleto do with this particular point. I was raised Christian and went tochurch and read the Bible. And even before being Muslim, this was oneof the aspects of Biblical Christianity which clearly bothered me andmade me not want to be a Christian. --- You are Sunnah rather than Shi'ih which is a "brand" to some extent. By modern standards there is a lot of shock in the Old Testament in particular. Modern standards
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm suggesting that your basic thesis is wrong. What do you think my thesis is? Dear Gilberto, That ethical principles and values have been constant over time. ok. If you aren't even sure if the Israelites received those commands (which are clearly contained in Deuteronomy) why argue tooth-and-nail that those commandments are justified? I didn't argue that point 'tooth and nail.' Not just you but other people in here as well. I *am* arguing that we can't disallow the possibility those commands *did* come from God because according to present day standards we find them distasteful. I don't believe wholesale, indiscriminate, total genocide of an entire ethnic group is a just matter of taste. I specifically explained what I meant by genocide and what I am refering to as genocide for the purposes of this particular discussion is different from what was done to Banu Qurayzah. Yes, I understand that you are defining genocide in a way that would include what the OT represents God as commanding and exclude what Muhammad did. I find that too convenient. Convenience of the definition isn't really the issue. Whether you call it genocide or whether you call it picking flowers it is still clear that a certain policy of killing certain nations is found in the Jewish Torah, but that the same behavior is clearly prohibited by Islamic rules and conditions for warfare. Secondly, You are totally ignoring the explanation given by Karen Armstrong. No, I'm not. I understand all the possible explanations just as I can understand the possible explanations for eliminating the Canaanites. Then you should just give them. There are specific reasons for why the particular actions taken against Banu Qurayzah saved lives. The same could be said for the Canaanites who practiced baby sacrifices. That explanation doesn't hold water if the Israelite army was killing Canaanite babies themselves. Thirdly, please don't ever ever say that you love and respect Islam and Muhammad if you are going to equate Muhammad with Milosevic. I don't. You accused both of genocide. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Convenience of the definition isn't really the issue. Whether you callit "genocide" or whether you call it "picking flowers" it is stillclear that a certain policy of killing certain nations is found in theJewish Torah, but that the same behavior is clearly prohibited byIslamic rules and conditions for warfare.
In reply:
Deuteronomy chronicles the eradication of an ethnic group. By today's standard it is "genocide"
The story of the banu Quraysh chronicles the eradication of an ethnic group. By today's standard it is "genocide".
That in the first instance the chldren were killed and in the second instance they were absorbed into another ethnicity with no way to keep their original identification is a nuance.
I agree it matters to some extent, and I think that represents a shift in moral value of life, does it not?
But in both examples a generation later none of the Canaanites and none of the Quraysh existed.
Regards,
Scott
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RE: Interesting thread
I'm sorry Susan. I was taught that top-posting was rude, so I try to comment during the previous narrative, I'll try to ammend my style, If you could quote the particular post, I'll edit it. Dear Scott, We discourage trailing but that is mostly because we are trying to discourage people from quoting the previous posts in their entirety period. I find when people put their own remarks at the bottom it is more confusing. And I usually assume that anytime I see a border it is someone else who is being quoted. To be perfectly honest, I tend to skip over your posts entirely because I can't distinguish your comments from the ones you are responding to. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Convenience of the definition isn't really the issue. Whether you call it genocide or whether you call it picking flowers it is still clear that a certain policy of killing certain nations is found in the Jewish Torah, but that the same behavior is clearly prohibited by Islamic rules and conditions for warfare. In reply: Deuteronomy chronicles the eradication of an ethnic group. By today's standard it is genocide Yes, because it defined a policy where several specific ethnic groups were targeted for elimination. This policy is outlined in the Jewish Torah and so presumably it was Jewish law before the children of Israel reached the Promised land. The Canaanites were slated for elimination just because they were living in the land first. Not because they attacked the Jews. Just because they were minding their own business and living on that land. If you read the book of Joshua, there was even a case of a nation called the Gibeonites. And they had heard that the children of Israel were running around the Promised Land going from city to city and taking everybody out (killing everything that had breath) the Gibeonites had never done anything to the children of Israel and they were scared and didn't to be eliminated. So they actually had to deceive the children of Israel and pretend to be from far away. Only then were they able to sign a treaty and so they were enslaved instead. The story of the banu Quraysh chronicles the eradication of an ethnic group. It's not Quraysh, it's Qurayzah. Those are two different groups. The people of Qurayzah had made a treaty with the Muslims, broken it, and were a continuing ongoing threat. The women and children survived so the next generation and the bearers of culture survived. The two cases are morally different. In this latter case it was a specific response to a specific situation. In the former case it was policy. But in both examples a generation later none of the Canaanites and none of the Quraysh existed. It is Qurayzah not Quraysh. Quraysh is alive and well. For example, according to Bahais, Bahaullah would have been Quraysh. I don't know that Banu Qurayzah has disappeared or under what circumstances. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
I didn't argue that point 'tooth and nail.' Not just you but other people in here as well. Gilberto, you are a assuming there is a single position being argued here in opposition to your own. That's not the case. We all have different perspectives. I tend to take each point by itself, whether it comes from you or anyone else. That drives some folks crazy, including yourself I suspect. I *am* arguing that we can't I don't believe wholesale, indiscriminate, total genocide of an entire ethnic group is a just matter of taste. But some kinds of genocide are okay because they aren't as total, indiscrimate or wholesale? No, I'm not. I understand all the possible explanations just as I can understand the possible explanations for eliminating the Canaanites. Then you should just give them. I'm not that interested in them. I have no real interest in judging the people by the past based on my present day standards. I am only intereted in examining the remedies which are needed for today's afflications. You accused both of genocide. By today's standards both incidents would constitute genocide. But as I indicated, I don't judge Muhammad by today's standards, however much you might think I should. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
change in morality Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Banu Qurayzah was under Muhammad's (saaws) watch and you believe Muhamad was a Manifestation of God, then even if the religion of Islam never existed, Bahais should have to come to terms with explaining the ethics and morality of such an action. But that's not the route Bahais take. Instead Bahais tend to argue that it was under a different law and a different situation, as if the moral value of a human life was different now and then. Susan: The ethics and morality of the situation *were* different then. How did they change? (I don't mean, what was the change?, I mean What was the process by which they changed?) Both as a Baha'i and as a historian I realize I can't project my own values back on the far past. I don't think Muhammad was guilty of any sin because He married a young girl. But if that was done today I would condemn it. The problem with what you are saying is that it is different in both cases. The circumstances were different in both cases. The society was different. The expectations were different. The consequences were different. In fact the act itself is different. Muhammad marrying Aishah was a unique event. I realize that Muslims take the opposite position. Where do you get that from? We've already had this discussion before. Our society is different now. I don't think a Muslim needs to convert to the Bahai faith to be able to say that today maybe people should get married at an older age than they did 1000 years ago. If Muhammad treated a nine-year old girl as an adult, then this should be the age of majority for women for all time. I think you have a really crude idea about Islamic law. Scholars who arrive at legal rulings ideally take into account many different considerations before evaluating an action. It is not just about whipping out a single hadith or a single verse of the Quran and slapping it over every situation like wallpaper. Even in the time of the companions they didn't interpret the laws that way. Rulings are also based on considering the specific factors related to the specific case including public interest, and the customs of the day. For example, in Maliki fiqh scholars look at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Abewley/usul.html 1.The Book of Allah 2. The Sunna 3. Fatwas of the Companions 4. Fatwas of the Followers (Tabi'un) 5. Consensus (Ijma') 6. The Practice of the People of Madina 7. Analogy (Qiyas) 8. Istihsan (Discretion) 9. Istishab (Presumption of Continuity) 10. al-Masalih al-Mursala (Public Interest) 11. adh-Dhara'i' (Means) 12. 'Adat (Customs) and 'Urf (Customary Usage) -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I didn't argue that point 'tooth and nail.' Not just you but other people in here as well. Gilberto, you are a assuming there is a single position being argued here in opposition to your own. No I realize that there are differences but there are also broad similiarities. I tend to take each point by itself, whether it comes from you or anyone else. That drives some folks crazy, including yourself I suspect. It just often comes off as nit-picky and not very productive and tends to encourage one-up-manship. It also removes statements from the context of an entire discussion. It just seems like a rhetorical trick. Like if you can't give a convincing counter-argument for a certain claim, and you don't want to concede, you can pick at some unrelated point. Gilberto: I don't believe wholesale, indiscriminate, total genocide of an entire ethnic group is a just matter of taste. Susan: No, I'm not. I understand all the possible explanations just as I can understand the possible explanations for eliminating the Canaanites. Then you should just give them. Susan: I'm not that interested in them. I have no real interest in judging the people by the past based on my present day standards. I'm not saying judge them by present day standards. You said you had possible explanations. I didn't put any limits on what kind of explanations. [on Muhammad and Milosevic] Gilberto: You accused both of genocide. Susan: By today's standards both incidents would constitute genocide. But as I indicated, I don't judge Muhammad by today's standards, however much you might think I should. You give the impression of being deliberately difficult. Im not saying today's standards I'm talking about basic moral considerations. If I have the basic principles that saving human lives is a good thing and that people have a right to defend themselves when threated to protect themselves from being killed. That's enough to explain what was done to Banu Qurayzah. Just read Karen Armstrong's explanation. The modern examples just don't live up to that criteria. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"I'm sorry Susan. I was taught that "top-posting" was rude, so I try tocomment during the previous narrative, I'll try to ammend my style, If youcould quote the particular post, I'll edit it."Dear Scott,We discourage trailing but that is mostly because we are trying todiscourage people from quoting the previous posts in their entirety period.I find when people put their own remarks at the bottom it is more confusing.And I usually assume that anytime I see a border it is someone else who isbeing quoted. To be perfectly honest, I tend to skip over your postsentirely because I can't distinguish your comments from the ones you areresponding to.warmest, Susan
I can ammend that. I appreciate your comment particularly anyway.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Qurayzah, duly noted, sorry for the error.
The treaty and its breaking provided grounds for the Muslims to make war with them, indeed.
The outcome of wiping out the males of mature age (old enough to be capable of bearing arms), then enslaving the women and children DID wipe them out ethnically just as completely as if the women and children had been slain. I would submit you do not know if they continue to exist as a people because they do not.
Tribal warfare tends to be BRUTAL warfare. Whether it be Hebrews, Arab, Hutu, or whatever.
The warfare of the time before Muhammed was warfare at its worst and most brutal. Muhammed regulated that brutality and advanced the quality of human culture and civilization. Of that there is no doubt. It was commendable and I think demonstrably proved the Divine Source of Islam.
This does not mean that the example that has been given is not genocide by modern standards. I think that modern standards were affected greatly by Jesus and Muhammed's contribution to the perfection of human civilization.
I believe this whole progress is proof that the "moral value of life" does indeed change from age to age and dispensation to dispensation.
Regards,
ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's not Quraysh, it's Qurayzah. Those are two different groups.The people of Qurayzah had made a treaty with the Muslims, broken it,and were a continuing ongoing threat. The women and children survivedso the next generation and the bearers of culture survived. The twocases are morally different. In this latter case it was a specificresponse to a specific situation. In the former case it was policy. But in both examples a generation later none of the Canaanites and none of the Quraysh existed.It is Qurayzah not Quraysh. Quraysh is alive and well. For example,according to Bahais, Bahaullah would have been Quraysh.I don't know that Banu Qurayzah has disappeared or under what circumstances.-GilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments th!
ereto
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Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Qurayzah, duly noted, sorry for the error. The treaty and its breaking provided grounds for the Muslims to make war with them, indeed. Ok. The outcome of wiping out the males of mature age (old enough to be capable of bearing arms), then enslaving the women and children DID wipe them out ethnically just as completely as if the women and children had been slain. I would submit you do not know if they continue to exist as a people because they do not. I'm not going to pretend like I'm some scholarly expert. I've read alot about religion but I don't want to set myself up as an authority. And this might sound bad... but if you just now are getting the group's name correct, then I don't think you are in ANY position to speak so confidently about whether or not the group still exists. You have no basis for saying what you are saying. It is better to just say, that you don't know. Tribal warfare tends to be BRUTAL warfare. Whether it be Hebrews, Arab, Hutu, or whatever. How are you measuring brutality? There are larger casualties in modern wars. Humans have certainly gotten more efficient at killing. Wars today still include horrible atrocities. If you look at the history of warfare I doubt that you would see much evidence of human progress. I believe this whole progress is proof that the moral value of life does indeed change from age to age and dispensation to dispensation. There is a famous saying in philosophical circles that says you can't go from an Is to an Ought. Moral values aren't things that you can measure emprically. So in particular, you can't look at history and find evidence that moral values have changed. You might be able to find evidence that people's beliefs about morality have changed, gone up and down like hemlines. But not the values themselves. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott: We get that you are trying to draw distinctions, but you are trying to draw modern distinctions and THEN paling before applying those same modern standards to the Banu Quraysh. By modern standards BOTH are genocidal. I'm not applying any particularly modern standards. All I'm saying is that killing large numbers of people who are minding their own business is always wrong. I don't think the assertion is particularly contraversial or modern. The Old Testament massacres even violated 7th century Islamic rules for warfare. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tribal warfare tends to be BRUTAL warfare. Whether it be Hebrews, Arab, Hutu, or whatever.How are you measuring brutality? There are larger casualties in modernwars. Humans have certainly gotten more efficient at killing. Warstoday still include horrible atrocities. If you look at the history ofwarfare I doubt that you would see much evidence of human progress.
I'll deal with this part of it here and go on with the other parts in other posts.
Gilberto,
I am measuring brutality by this standard:
Do the combatants go out of their way to kill women and children - non-combatants?
Is the purpose of the battle or war to eradicate and ethnic group or tribe?
World War Two is kind of split in this. The Nazi approach to some of the war was very "tribal" in nature, and against other opponents it was less tribal in nature - less primitively motivated.
I'll set asid the eradication of the Jews because largely that was begun before the war began - the mechanisms put in place and the arrangements planned.
The conquest of Poland was aimed at the eradication of Poland as a nation and an ethnicity. Poland was scrubbed from the map by the German conquest and the Soviet invasion of the eastern provinces of Poland.
Once the Nazis had conquered the Polish military they divided the population into two main groups - those who were "Aryan" in bloodlines, and those who were not. The "Aryan bloodlines" were "preserved" in their nomenclature and the slavs were used as grunt labor and allowed to work themselves to death for German purposes - Jew and Gentile alike.
The conquest of Poland allowed the Nazis to go ahead with extermination policies because Poland was a large open pit in which to bury whatever might be left over.
This was utter brutality, primitive in nature, tribal in outlook and would have fit well in the wars of Celtic expansion in the late neolithic, early bronze age, or the wars of the native peoples of North America. It was to the "knife" and perpetrated against man and woman and child alike.
The Nazi government fought a different war against Britain and America, obeying the basic international laws, not seeking to eradicate the British or the French or the American peoples.
Even in the excesses of the Soviet conquest of Berlin and east Germany, the rapes and murders were vengeful, they did not attempt to eradicate Germans or Germany in the process. In this way it was less brutal and less "tribal" and less "primitive".
War is in this age a somewhat controlled brutality. Clausewitz was essentially right when he called war "diplomacy by other means".
In Muhammed's youth one tribe would obliterate another. Merchants were brigands as well. Women and children were of little consequence and often killed for genocidal purposes.
Muhammed improved this. Even his treatment of the Qurayzah was less brutal than the standards of His youth.
If one needs proof of this one should consider what would have happened had the Meccans defeated the defenders of Medina and sacked the city and taken into captivity all the followers of Muhammed and Himself. What would have been their fate?
I think the Meccans would have slaughtered the lot, sparing only rare individuals on individual whim. It would have been like the sack of Troy.
So, is the standard of Muhammed in the 7th century AD an improvement over the times of His youth? Ever so much! Are the standards of warfare of Muhammed more civilized and less brutal than the times of Joshua? Ever so much!
By the standards of today is the standard of the 7th century less brutal than today? No, it is not.
When modern day Islamic leaders say "Israel must be wiped from the face of the earth" is this acceptable by modern standards? No, it isn't. The law of Islam would be used by any number of Islamic pundits to justify wiping out modern Israeli to the last man, and enslave the women and children, and by those standards it might be acceptable.
It is not acceptable by today's standards however. Civilization demands more of us s humanity.
Such is my opinion,
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Interesting thread
Dear Gilberto,
No verse of the Qur'an says it, but a nine year old girl is an adult by the standards of the hadith, and much shariyah is hadith-based, hadith provides much of the precedent for Islamic jurisprudence.
In 1980 an Iranian court hung a seventeen year old girl, she was arrested when she was sixteen. Is that sufficiently old? Her crime was teaching the Baha`i faith to Baha`i children.
Regards,
ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:What verse of the Quran says to hang nine-year old girls? What could anine-year old girl do that would cause her to get hanged? Assumingthere even was such a case, what kind of caricature of Islamic law doyou believe in which would make you think that there are neverextenuating circumstances (that allow for clemency)? - Gilberto: Thirdly, I don't think you individually are necessarily guilty of this but I think this attempt to equate the Biblical and Quranic rules of warfare strikes me as self serving. Bahais tend to say, for instance that Bahaullah abolished "holy war" but when I've pointed out that the Bahai texts which justify "righteous warfare" Bahais are eager to try to seperate the Bahai stance from the Muslim. (So!
me seemed
even offended at the comparison) Islam's rules about warfare are basically consistent with current notions of "just war". While if you just read the book of Joshua you would see how radically different the OT view was.--- Reply: Righteous warfare is different in definition by Baha`i standards than "Holy War".Gilberto:Ok, that's what you are claiming. I've given you specific reasons forwhy Islamic warfare is very different from the warfare commanded inthe OT. What are the reasons that you believe Bahai "righteouswarfare" is different from the warfare fought under Muhammad (saaws)or Ali or Hussein? - Do you believe it is valid to apply the Quranic rules on warfare today? - Reply: In a word, no. ---Gilberto:An!
d that's
how you are downgrading or deligitimizing the Quran.In response to Scott saying he wants me to feel better about the OTgenocides (paraphrase) Gilberto If you want to do that, then you should explain how the genocides commanded in Deuteronomy and executed in Joshua (among other places) are consistent with basic rules about moral behavior. Reply: I do not know if Deuteronomical excesses were at the command of God or not.Gilberto:So it doesn't makes sense that you would be so eager to justify them.Scott: Though Baha'is have our own Book, we still interpret the writings in all Holy Books in a positive light.Gilberto: I just try to see all the books as they are. Positive and negative.Scott: But you never change your point of view a whit.Gilberto:That's not true. I think I've learned more about Bahais through
theseinteractions. I'm not sure what you expect though.Scott: It is unfortunate that your brand of Islam cannot do that, it seems like you are intimidated by the other Holy Books.Gilberto: Firstly I don't have a brand of Islam. Actually Islam has very little to do with this particular point. I was raised Christian and went to church and read the Bible. And even before being Muslim, this was one of the aspects of Biblical Christianity which clearly bothered me and made me not want to be a Christian. You are Sunnah rather than Shi'ih which is a "brand" to some extent.Sunni, or Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamaat. But the attitude you describeddoesn't apply to me and it isn't specific to sunnis.Scott: By modern standards there is a lot of shock in the Old Testament in particular. Modern standards will NEVER gain an unde!
rstanding
of the Old Testament, it is quite alien to the standards of today.Again, it's not just a modern thing. I don't think you need to be"modern" to say that killing large numbers of people who are not doinganything to you is wrong.-GThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank
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Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The outcome of wiping out the males of mature age (old enough to be capable of bearing arms), then enslaving the women and children DID wipe them out ethnically just as completely as if the women and children had been slain. I would submit you do not know if they continue to exist as a people because they do not. I'm not going to pretend like I'm some scholarly expert. I've read alot about religion but I don't want to set myself up as an authority. And this might sound bad... but if you just now are getting the group's name correct, then I don't think you are in ANY position to speak so confidently about whether or not the group still exists. You have no basis for saying what you are saying. It is better to just say, that you don't know. Your arguments, if one can call them arguments, are amzing. What are you saying? Just produce someone from banu-Qurayzah and end the discussion. If you can't, then just say nothing. Your above comment is totally rubbish and meaningless, Gilberto. And you know it. There is a famous saying in philosophical circles that says you can't go from an Is to an Ought. Moral values aren't things that you can measure emprically. So in particular, you can't look at history and find evidence that moral values have changed. You might be able to find evidence that people's beliefs about morality have changed, gone up and down like hemlines. But not the values themselves. Another nonsense comment. Peace Gilberto Iskandar The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Contradictory Information regarding the Events with Banu Qurayzah... http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussiondid=356 The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott: Tribal warfare tends to be BRUTAL warfare. Whether it be Hebrews, Arab, Hutu, or whatever. Gilberto How are you measuring brutality? There are larger casualties in modern wars. Humans have certainly gotten more efficient at killing. Wars today still include horrible atrocities. If you look at the history of warfare I doubt that you would see much evidence of human progress. Scott: I am measuring brutality by this standard: Do the combatants go out of their way to kill women and children - non-combatants? Is the purpose of the battle or war to eradicate and ethnic group or tribe? World War Two is kind of split in this. [Description of various WWII atrocities deleted] Gilberto: Yes, I agree. WWII was a horrible war where many awful things were done. Even on both sides. Dresden. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Tokyo as well as the obvious atrocities of the Axis powers. Scott: So, is the standard of Muhammed in the 7th century AD an improvement over the times of His youth? Ever so much! Are the standards of warfare of Muhammed more civilized and less brutal than the times of Joshua? Ever so much! Gilberto: I don't think you have given enough factual evidence to settle the question since this is the Bahai group and not the WWII history group or history of modern warfare group, it probably would be bad idea to get into it. Serbians against the Bosnians. Hutus and Tutsis. Hatfields and McCoys. Humanity hasn't changed so much. Scott: When modern day Islamic leaders say Israel must be wiped from the face of the earth is this acceptable by modern standards? I don't think it would be constructive to get into politics. You are looking at selective voices and calling them Islamic leaders when there are also Muslims who take different positions. And you are totally silent about Jewish settlers who say the same thing about Palestinians. It makes you look unbalanced, one-sided. The law of Islam would be used by any number of Islamic pundits to justify wiping out modern Israeli to the last man, and enslave the women and children, and by those standards it might be acceptable. Where does the Quran say to do this? Where in the hadith does it actually say to do this? I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to speak for what Islamic pundits would say. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: I'm not going to pretend like I'm some scholarly expert. I've read alot about religion but I don't want to set myself up as an authority. And this might sound bad... but if you just now are getting the group's name correct, then I don't think you are in ANY position to speak so confidently about whether or not the group still exists. You have no basis for saying what you are saying. It is better to just say, that you don't know. Iskandar: Your arguments, if one can call them arguments, are amzing. What are you saying? I'm saying that I haven't seen a convincing argument one way or another which says whether anyone descended from Banu Qurayzah is alive today. Just produce someone from banu-Qurayzah and end the discussion. If you can't, then just say nothing. Scott is the one who claimed to know for certain that Banu Qurayzah was gone, but he didn't know the difference between Qurayzah and Quraysh. I never claimed they were definitely still around. If you think they are definitely gone then show the evidence. Gilberto: There is a famous saying in philosophical circles that says you can't go from an Is to an Ought. Moral values aren't things that you can measure emprically. So in particular, you can't look at history and find evidence that moral values have changed. You might be able to find evidence that people's beliefs about morality have changed, gone up and down like hemlines. But not the values themselves. Another nonsense comment. (sigh) Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, No verse of the Qur'an says it, but a nine year old girl is an adult by the standards of the hadith, Scott, I think you need to slow down. I think you are misunderstanding the issue and misspeaking. In 1980 an Iranian court hung a seventeen year old girl, she was arrested when she was sixteen. Is that sufficiently old? Her crime was teaching the Baha`i faith to Baha`i children. So are you assuming that everything the Iranian government does in the name of Islam, is actually Islamic? Is everything that Western governments do in the name of democracy, actually democratic? -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On 10/27/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Just produce someone from banu-Qurayzah and end the discussion. If you can't, then just say nothing. Scott is the one who claimed to know for certain that Banu Qurayzah was gone, but he didn't know the difference between Qurayzah and Quraysh. I never claimed they were definitely still around. If you think they are definitely gone then show the evidence. This is even more stupid, Gilberto. Don't you know that you cannot prove a negative? The burden of proof is upon you to produce a Jewish person from banu-Qurayzah and we will all shut up. Otherwise don't claim that the banu-Qurayzah tribe wasn't wiped out. Wasn't wiped out, my foot. Just show me one person. One. Only one, and one person only. Iskandar The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
I know one here in our campus.! |wasn't wiped out. Wasn't wiped out, my foot. Just show me one |person. One. Only one, and one person only. | The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Dear Gilberto, No verse of the Qur'an says it, but a nine year old girl is an adult by the standards of the hadith,Scott, I think you need to slow down. I think you are misunderstandingthe issue and misspeaking. In 1980 an Iranian court hung a seventeen year old girl, she was arrested when she was sixteen. Is that sufficiently old? Her crime was teaching the Baha`i faith to Baha`i children.So are you assuming that everything the Iranian government does in thename of Islam, is actually Islamic? Is everything that Westerngovernments do in the name of democracy, actually democratic?
Gilberto
Dear Gilberto,
The United States isn't a democracy, it is a representative republic. But that is a red-herring. It was a court acting on what they considered to be Islamic law. They hung a young woman at seventeen years of age. They arrested her at 16. Then they wrapped themselves in the shariah and said it was a legal act.
I do not hold Muhammed responsible for the act. I do not even think that reasonable Islamic jurists would accept the reasoning of the court, but part of the logic behind the sentence and execution was that she was a mature adult under Islamic law, and Islamic tradition about Aisha was part of the precedent involved.
If the court had stuck to the Qur'an they would have been forced to judge that there should be no compulsion in religion and they would have followed Muhammed's law.
At least part of the problem is that those governments who try to act under the shariah are trying to make rational jurisprudence on law that is no longer appropriate to the this day and age and this world community.
The shar'iah is outdated and no longer valid; but Muhammed is still n APostle of God, the Seal of the Prophets and the Qur'an is still the word of God. Its social laws are no longer the proper guidance for today's society.
And this is a good example of how moral and social values evolve.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors wrote: Dear Gilberto, No verse of the Qur'an says it, but a nine year old girl is an adult by the standards of the hadith, Gilberto: Scott, I think you need to slow down. I think you are misunderstanding the issue and misspeaking. Scott: In 1980 an Iranian court hung a seventeen year old girl, she was arrested when she was sixteen. Is that sufficiently old? Her crime was teaching the Baha`i faith to Baha`i children. Gilberto: So are you assuming that everything the Iranian government does in the name of Islam, is actually Islamic? Is everything that Western governments do in the name of democracy, actually democratic? Scott: The United States isn't a democracy, it is a representative republic. But that is a red-herring. The US government certainly calls itself a democracy and claims to promote democratic values. But you are saying the United States isn't a democracy. By the same token, there are Muslim governments out there which call their various actions and policies Islamic that doesn't mean they are. Scott: It was a court acting on what they considered to be Islamic law. Gilberto: Sure. But a different Islamic court might make a different decision. Just because they call themselves Islamic doesn't it make it that way. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
There are no records of the numbers of European Jews who were exterminated in the Nazi camp system - worked to death, liquidated, dead of disease, dead of exposure, dead of brutality, dead by mischance - whatever.
How do we know that about six million died? Because when the war was over they did not find their way home or into displaced persons camps. The war swallowed them up.
If there were any banu Qurayzah alive after the time of Muhammed, why did none of them return home? Why do they cease to appear in any records or myth?
Because they are gone.
Please note this was a clan or sept of Arabian Jews, and the whole numbers we are discussing are probably no more than a hundred or two hundred. They are just a blip on the record of the past. But tribes of the time were small.
Regards,
ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Iskandar,Calm down.Take a deep breath.Count to 10.Take another deep breath.Count to 10.I never said Banu Qurayzah were still around.But Scott said they were definitely gone.All I said is that he doesn't have a basis for saying that.In a situation like that, the best thing is to say we don't know.That's all I'm trying to get across.PeaceGilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
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Re: Interesting thread
In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to be stoned to death.
Is this an appropriate sentence to this day and age?
Less than fifty years ago a Saudi court ordered the beheading of a princess of the Royal house for adultery. Was this an appropriate sentence in this day and age?
An Egyptian scholar was declared apostate and ordered to divorce his wife. They chose to leave the country in the middle of the night and seek asylum in the Netherlands. Was that an appropriate sentence in this day and age?
Everyday and in every way the courts of shariah try to stretch and twist the fabric of Muhammed's code of laws to fit situations it was never designed for. More and more this effort fails. Why? Because times and civilization change. Values and moral imperatives change. People change.
Regards,
ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors wrote: Dear Gilberto, No verse of the Qur'an says it, but a nine year old girl is an adult by the standards of the hadith,Gilberto: Scott, I think you need to slow down. I think you are misunderstanding the issue and misspeaking.Scott: In 1980 an Iranian court hung a seventeen year old girl, she was arrested when she was sixteen. Is that sufficiently old? Her crime was teaching the Baha`i faith to Baha`i children.Gilberto: So are you assuming that everything the Iranian government does in the name of Islam, is actually Islamic? Is everything that Western governments do in the name of d!
emocracy,
actually democratic?Scott: The United States isn't a democracy, it is a representative republic. But that is a red-herring.The US government certainly calls itself a democracy and claims topromote democratic values. But you are saying the United States isn'ta democracy.By the same token, there are Muslim governments out there which calltheir various actions and policies "Islamic" that doesn't mean theyare.Scott:It was a court acting on what they considered to be Islamic law.Gilberto:Sure. But a different "Islamic" court might make a different decision.Just because they call themselves "Islamic" doesn't it make it thatway.PeaceGilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or !
entity
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are no records of the numbers of European Jews who were exterminated in the Nazi camp system - worked to death, liquidated, dead of disease, dead of exposure, dead of brutality, dead by mischance - whatever. There actually are. There are records. On Yom ha Shoah (Holocaust Day) some Jewish organizations actually organize marathons of sorts where people take turn continually reading long lists of names of people who died in the Holocaust. If there were any banu Qurayzah alive after the time of Muhammed, why did none of them return home? On what basis are you saying none of them returned home? One reason they might not come back would be they had made themselves enemies of the Muslim community and so it would have been crazy to go back to Medina. There were other Jewish tribes in the vicinity. Maybe they got absorbed into one of them? I'm not claiming to know for sure. Why do they cease to appear in any records or myth? Again, on what basis are you saying any of this? Do you have some exhaustive knowledge of all human genealogical records and every human myth? Why is it so important to you to claim that Muhammad (saaws) wiped out an entire tribe? Please, don't ever ask me why I think you sound like an Islamophobe. -Gilberto Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Iskandar, Calm down. Take a deep breath. Count to 10. Take another deep breath. Count to 10. I never said Banu Qurayzah were still around. But Scott said they were definitely gone. All I said is that he doesn't have a basis for saying that. In a situation like that, the best thing is to say we don't know. That's all I'm trying to get across. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: There are no records of the numbers of European Jews who were exterminated in the Nazi camp system - worked to death, liquidated, dead of disease, dead of exposure, dead of brutality, dead by mischance - whatever.There actually are. There are records. On Yom ha Shoah (Holocaust Day)some Jewish organizations actually organize "marathons" of sorts wherepeople take turn continually reading long lists of names of people whodied in the Holocaust.
Of course, those long lists of names are derived from the census material for the towns, villages, shtetls. These are the people who vanished to the maw of Nazi racial policies. If there were any banu Qurayzah alive after the time of Muhammed, why did none of them return home?On what basis are you saying none of them returned home? One reasonthey might not come back would be they had made themselves enemies ofthe Muslim community and so it would have been crazy to go back toMedina. There were other Jewish tribes in the vicinity. Maybe they gotabsorbed into one of them? I'm not claiming to know for sure. Why do they cease to appear in any records or myth?Again, on what basis are you saying any of this? Do you have someexhaustive knowledge of all human genealogical records and every humanmyth?Why is it so important to you to claim that Muhammad (saaws) wiped
outan entire tribe?Please, don't ever ask me why I think you sound like an Islamophobe.
I am no more a hater of Islam than you are of Christians or Jews.
Regards,
Scott
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RE: change in morality Re: Interesting thread
How did they change? (I don't mean, what was the change?, I mean What was the process by which they changed?) Dear Gilberto, I consider the Will of God to be the basis of all morality. That Will is expressed through revelation. And it was revealed through Baha'u'llah that would be no more genocide, burning of books or shunning of other religious communities. And He explicitly mentioned the incident involving the Banu Qurayzah in this context. Muhammad marrying Aishah was a unique event. I don't think so. I think child marriages weren't all that uncommon then. I realize that Muslims take the opposite position. Where do you get that from? We've already had this discussion before. Our society is different now. I don't think a Muslim needs to convert to the Bahai faith to be able to say that today maybe people should get married at an older age than they did 1000 years ago. You may not think so but those calling the shots in Islamic governments take the opposite position. If they prophet married a girl at a certain age, then that should be the age of majority for girls. If you imagine ethics and morality as divorced from time and place, that would certainly be the logical conclusion. If Muhammad treated a nine-year old girl as an adult, then this should be the age of majority for women for all time. I think you have a really crude idea about Islamic law. Scholars who arrive at legal rulings ideally take into account many different considerations before evaluating an action. It is not my idea about Islamic law. It is the position which has been taken by the Iranian government. Would you like me to show you the documentation? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Im not saying today's standards I'm talking about basic moral considerations. That's the point of dispute isn't it? Whether or not there is any such thing as morality apart from the situation, place and time. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to be stoned to death. Dear Scott, I would be careful with that example. There is nothing in the Qur'an that calls for stoning, in fact the penalty for adultery mentioned there is much less. It is hard to know what to make the contradictory hadith reports on this. In any case, you need four eye-witnesses to the crime of adultery, something these courts rarely have. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
That's true enough, Susan. But in many instances stoning was carried out regardless.
I think that's an example of shariah being too inflexible for modern times, its been stretched as far as it will go and the holes are beginning to gain prominence.
Regards,
ScottSusan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
" In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to bestoned to death."Dear Scott,I would be careful with that example. There is nothing in the Qur'an thatcalls for stoning, in fact the penalty for adultery mentioned there is muchless. It is hard to know what to make the contradictory hadith reports onthis. In any case, you need four eye-witnesses to the crime of adultery,something these courts rarely have.warmest, SusanThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the
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criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Afghanistan the courts of shar'iah routinely sentenced people to be stoned to death. Is this an appropriate sentence to this day and age? How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. Instead what you seem to be doing is taking whatever prejudices and gut feelings you might have, and assuming that these are appropriate in determining what is appropriate or not at any given time. Don't just ask rhetorical questions and assume that the answer is no. If you believe stoning is inappropriate tell me specifically why. And whatever answer you give, you should be sure to explain how your criteria let's you say that stoning is inappropirate, but burning someone alive (the Bahai punishment for arson) is okey-dokey. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: change in morality Re: Interesting thread
On 10/27/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How did they change? (I don't mean, what was the change?, I mean What was the process by which they changed?) Dear Gilberto, I consider the Will of God to be the basis of all morality. That Will is expressed through revelation. And it was revealed through Baha'u'llah that would be no more genocide, burning of books or shunning of other religious communities. And He explicitly mentioned the incident involving the Banu Qurayzah in this context. Muhammad marrying Aishah was a unique event. I don't think so. I think child marriages weren't all that uncommon then. You don't understand. I didn't say child marriages are unique. I said the specific action of Muhammad (saaws) the prophet marrying Aishah (ra) the mother of the believers was a unique event. If I had a daughter who was nine and some guy came around trying to propose marriage, that would be a different event and there are reasonable considerations which would allow a good orthodox Muslim to say Hell no! you must be crazy while accepting the marriage of the prophet to Aishah. That's what I'm saying. realize that Muslims take the opposite position. Where do you get that from? We've already had this discussion before. Our society is different now. I don't think a Muslim needs to convert to the Bahai faith to be able to say that today maybe people should get married at an older age than they did 1000 years ago. You may not think so but those calling the shots in Islamic governments take the opposite position. Firstly, Islam isn't defined by the policies of Islamic governments. If they prophet married a girl at a certain age, then that should be the age of majority for girls. You are oversimplifying. In principle, maturity begins with puberty, although there are at times upper and lower limits to address the problems of late bloomers and early starters (respectively). If you imagine ethics and morality as divorced from time and place, that would certainly be the logical conclusion. You are being really insulting. Age isn't the only consideration in marriage. If Muhammad treated a nine-year old girl as an adult, then this should be the age of majority for women for all time. I think you have a really crude idea about Islamic law. Scholars who arrive at legal rulings ideally take into account many different considerations before evaluating an action. It is not my idea about Islamic law. It is the position which has been taken by the Iranian government. Would you like me to show you the documentation? Islam is defined by the Quran and the sunnah not by the policies of the Iranian government. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
Try to understand what I'm seeing in here. One person likened the actions of Muhammad to Milosevic and you are accusing Muhammad of genocide and comparing what was done to Banu Qurayzah (unfavorably) with the Holocaust. We are going around in circles Gilberto. The cycle runs something like this. You challenge the validity of the Bible on the basis of your own preconcieved ethics and morality which are supposedly timeless in nature. We respond by pointing out that by the usual modern standards of ethics and morality there are similiar problems with Muhammad's actions. Then you accuse us of denigrating your own prophet and book. Who started the discussion in that direction to begin with? The point was never that Muhammad was like Milosevc. It was that that you cannot take the same principles of morality of ehtics that are used to judge people like Milsevc and project them back on a past age. Therefore it is invalid to judge the validity of *any* ancient scripture by projecting your current morality back onto it, unless the question involves its continuing applicability rather than its historical one. In any case, let's just drop the thread. We are going nowhere. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define appropriate? I would suggest we come up with some specific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, and which can be applied in different situations. We are neither prophets nor the sons of prophets that we should presume to do this. But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. I don't think it is presumtuous to say Hey killing folks who are minding their own business is generally wrong or stealing is a bad thing to do -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread
But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least one prophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date. The only thing which is true of the above statement is that I did suggest it was out of date. And I suggest that on the basis of God's new revelation. And modern sensibilities seem to be largely in tune with that. The world's reaction to what happened in Bosnia is a reflection of those sensibilities. Sorry, Gilberto. We just disagree and we are going to continue to disagree about this. We can leave it there without misrepresenting what I actually said. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: banu qurayzah: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/28/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try to understand what I'm seeing in here. One person likened the actions of Muhammad to Milosevic and you are accusing Muhammad of genocide and comparing what was done to Banu Qurayzah (unfavorably) with the Holocaust. Susan: We are going around in circles Gilberto. The cycle runs something like this. You challenge the validity of the Bible on the basis of your own preconcieved ethics and morality which are supposedly timeless in nature. I don't treat the Bible as one book. This argument is specific to certain commandments. And in any case, it is not clear why you are arguing because you were doubting whether the descriptions in the Bible are historical anyway. We respond by pointing out that by the usual modern standards of ethics and morality there are similiar problems with Muhammad's actions. I'm not using particularly modern standards of ethics. Then you accuse us of denigrating your own prophet and book. Not just my own prophet and book, you guys say you love him with all your heart and love the book too. The point was never that Muhammad was like Milosevc. It was that that you cannot take the same principles of morality of ehtics that are used to judge people like Milsevc and project them back on a past age. It isn't a point you've convincingly demonstrated. There aren't just modern values Different communities and civilizations on this planet have slightly different values (at the same time). Why should the values of Muslims living in 2005 be subordinate to the values of secular Western liberals in 2005? -Gilberto -- There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
"There is no justification for genocide, for the wholesale killing ofmen, women and children of an entire ethnic group in the Quran."Ordinary" warfare where you make sure not to kill non-combatants,where you allow the enemy to surrender, where you cease hostilitieswhen your opponent does, etc. is not the same thing as the genocidescommanded in the Bible."
So what do you make of the massacre of the BanuQurayza?
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Re: Interesting thread
On 10/26/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no justification for genocide, for the wholesale killing of men, women and children of an entire ethnic group in the Quran. Ordinary warfare where you make sure not to kill non-combatants, where you allow the enemy to surrender, where you cease hostilities when your opponent does, etc. is not the same thing as the genocides commanded in the Bible. So what do you make of the massacre of the Banu Qurayza? In the OT case, the groups living in the promised land before the Jews got there, had done little to the Jews to bother or attack them. And at least the commandments in Deuteronomy were for total killing. And it was a permanent commandments in the Torah. (If you look at a list of the 613 commandments of the Torah, the several commandments to commit genocide are there as policy) In terms of Banu Quraizah, that was a one time thing done in response to specific actions by that tribe. They broke a treaty that they had with the Muslims. A siege was put on their community. When they surrended, some kind of arbitration had to occur to decide what was to be done to them. They agreed on their own judge (who was not the prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't genocide. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
In Biblical and in modern terms, killing all the men, taking the women as concubines and wives and raising the children as members of the conquering tribe, certainly matches the definition for genocide. I'm finding myself having less and less positive feelings about the conversation and where you seem to be pushing the conversation. Islamic rules for warfare strove to protect non-combatants and to allow the conflict to de-escalate. The Biblical OT rules simply did not do that. That is a real difference. You may think it is a small difference. I don't. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In Biblical and in modern terms, killing all the men, taking the women as concubines and wives and raising the children as members of the conquering tribe, certainly matches the definition for genocide.I'm finding myself having less and less positive feelings about theconversation and where you seem to be pushing the conversation.Islamic rules for warfare strove to protect non-combatants and toallow the conflict to de-escalate. The Biblical OT rules simply didnot do that. That is a real difference. You may think it is a smalldifference. I don't.-Gilberto
No need to take it personally, Gilberto. You didn't do any of it.
I agree that the jurisprudence of the affair was probably according to the laws of the tribes. However, I notice that when discussing these things it is a tendency for you to put things in modern terms. And in modern terms there is no difference between the fate of the rebelling tribe in that instance and the fate of the rebelling tribe of Bosnians at the hands of Serbians.
And if in the terms of the time the event we have been speaking of was proper, then perhaps in the terms of time of the Old Testament it was proper then?
History cannot be understood and serve as a lesson for today if one cannot get at least partially into the mindset of the times.
Regards,
Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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RE: Interesting thread
They agreed on their own judge (who was not the prophet) and the judge declared that the men should be killed. The women and children were spared. It was certainly harsh. But it wasn't genocide. Dear Gilberto, By 'spared' you mean the women and children were sold into slavery. In Bosnia it was mostly the men who were killed as well while they women were raped (which is the fate of most female slaves.) And what happened in Bosnia is considered genocide. So by modern definitions, what would be the difference? Or is it perhaps the case that we can't always judge past events by modern standards? warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Hadith (was Re: Interesting thread)
Hi Gilberto,
To Iskandar:
So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith,killing apostates is A-OK until 1843.
My personal view is that hadith are not authoritative, except for the ones
quoted by Baha'h'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I don't know of any place in the Baha'i
writings which explains how Baha'is should regard hadith.
Of course, Muhammad, as a Manifestation of God, could say anything
He wanted. But I don'tnecessarily believe that all the hadith of Bukhari accurately
represent the teachings of Muhammad. I think the Quran is more reliable.
Tim Nolan
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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Re: Hadith (was Re: Interesting thread)
On 10/21/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, To Iskandar: So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith, killing apostates is A-OK until 1843. My personal view is that hadith are not authoritative, except for the ones quoted by Baha'h'llah or Abdu'l Baha. I don't know of any place in the Baha'i writings which explains how Baha'is should regard hadith. In SAQ, in the section on Muhammad it expressed a great deal of skepticism about stories people told about Muhammad. Of course, Muhammad, as a Manifestation of God, could say anything He wanted. But I don't necessarily believe that all the hadith of Bukhari accurately represent the teachings of Muhammad. I think the Quran is more reliable. A hadith is just a report or narration of something the prophet said or did. (And for Shias, they also consider the 'hadith' of the imams). It is recognized that some hadith are made up and some are authentic. But for sunnis and shias, the idea is that the scholars of the religion have put in a great amount of effort into verifying which hadith were authentic to a very high degree so that one can be reasonably sure that the hadith designated as authentic actually are so. But yes, I think the Quran is more reliable. Peace Gilberto -- There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/20/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/19/05 10:15:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Muslim interpretation of what Muhammad taught as Islamic principles. The Bahai interpretation of what Muhammad (or the Bab or Bahaullah etc.) taught would be Bahai principles. So in that sense Bahais are critical of Islamic principles (e.g. the idea that the Islamic shariah is still valid, the idea that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet, etc.) Sekhmet: Okay, if we define Islamic principles that way, then I agree that Baha'is disagree with some of them. But I don't think that the disagreement itself is criticism, or at least it doesn't need to be; it just _becomes_ criticism when we're not good at explaining the reasons for the disagreement-- Gilberto: What is your definition of criticism then? Im not sure if inability to explain is really the important part here. If there is a difference of opinion and its irreconcilable then each side has to learn to accept the other person *as they are*. Sometimes trying to convert the other person gets in the way of getting along. Sekhmet: example, using the grade school analogy to try to illustrate Progressive Revelation without making it very, very clear that it is NOT a superiority/inferiority thing (which I've noticed very few of us Baha'is can manage to bring off successfully without at least a few irate squawks from our victim-- er, explainees g). Do you think the grade school analogy adequately captures progressive revelation for you personally? Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
In a message dated 10/18/05 1:09:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [snipped 'cause I think we've reached mutual understanding on the first part] Sekhmet: Of course we feel that some of them are now unsuitable-- the Manifestation of God for this Day has told us so, and has provided us with suitable replacements, Gilberto: Again, it seems obvious to me that this is what is being said. But many Bahais try to sugar coat it Agreed, but please consider that they may do it with good intentions, because it's a loaded issue that can prompt a defensive (and not always polite) reaction from Muslims. Just as there are hot-button issues that can prompt defensive (and impolite) reactions from Baha'is. And none of us really likes to be yelled at... ;-) and won't admit that they are making these criticisms against Islamic principles when that is obviously what they are doing. Er, wait a sec-- how did we get from criticizing Muslims and their institutions and laws unsuitable for modern times to criticizing against Islamic principles? I'm not sure those things are interchangeable, because my thinking is that when we get into the principles we're crossing over into the realm of differing interpretations of what Muhammad taught, rather than being in the realm of criticism. But I'm open to discussion about that. --Sekhmet The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/18/05 1:09:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [snipped 'cause I think we've reached mutual understanding on the first part] Sekhmet: Of course we feel that some of them are now unsuitable-- the Manifestation of God for this Day has told us so, and has provided us with suitable replacements, Gilberto: Again, it seems obvious to me that this is what is being said. But many Bahais try to sugar coat it Sekhmet: Agreed, but please consider that they may do it with good intentions, because it's a loaded issue that can prompt a defensive (and not always polite) reaction from Muslims. Gilberto: Yeah, I see that. On both counts. But from my perspective, the sugar coating comes off as dishonest. It comes out looking as the denial of something which seems really evident and obvious to me. And that is more likely to get me angry and defensive than honest disagreement. Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You know? Gilberto: I don't know if this is a Bahai/Muslim thing or if this about my personality specifically mixing with the Bahais who happen to be on this forum, or both. But I can actually be really really happy with honest disagreement.But I get the sense that Bahais put more value on agreement. Gilberto: and won't admit that they are making these criticisms against Islamic principles when that is obviously what they are doing. S: Er, wait a sec-- how did we get from criticizing Muslims and their institutions and laws unsuitable for modern times to criticizing against Islamic principles? I'm not sure those things are interchangeable, Gilberto: I agree. Those are all different things. But I think the Bahai faith (in the writings) is critical of all of them. Sekhmet: because my thinking is that when we get into the principles we're crossing over into the realm of differing interpretations of what Muhammad taught, rather than being in the realm of criticism. But I'm open to discussion about that. Gilberto: I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Muslim interpretation of what Muhammad taught as Islamic principles. The Bahai interpretation of what Muhammad (or the Bab or Bahaullah etc.) taught would be Bahai principles. So in that sense Bahais are critical of Islamic principles (e.g. the idea that the Islamic shariah is still valid, the idea that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet, etc.) Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto:Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You know?
Hajir:
Hmm... what do you *really* mean by this analogy?
Gilberto:I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Musliminterpretation of what Muhammad taught as "Islamic principles". TheBahai interpretation of what Muhammad (or the Bab or Bahaullah etc.)taught would be "Bahai principles". So in that sense Bahais arecritical of "Islamic principles" (e.g. the idea that the Islamicshariah is still valid, the idea that Muhammad (saaws) is the lastprophet, etc.)Hajir:
Do you mean that the Baha'i view of "Islam principles" is essentially different from the Muslim view of "Christian principles"? Do you mean that Muslims do not misinterpret Christian "principles" because they are corrupt anyway?
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Re: Interesting thread
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You know? Hajir: Hmm... what do you *really* mean by this analogy? Are you joking around with me :) I honestly can't tell. Gilberto: I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Muslim interpretation of what Muhammad taught as Islamic principles. The Bahai interpretation of what Muhammad (or the Bab or Bahaullah etc.) taught would be Bahai principles. So in that sense Bahais are critical of Islamic principles (e.g. the idea that the Islamic shariah is still valid, the idea that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet, etc.) Hajir: Do you mean that the Baha'i view of Islam principles is essentially different from the Muslim view of Christian principles? Gilberto: Why would they be the same? Hajir: Do you mean that Muslims do not misinterpret Christian principles because they are corrupt anyway? Gilberto: I don't know where you are getting this from exactly. I would just say that when I explain my own view or a Muslim view on what Jesus taught, I generally wouldn't try to pass them off as Christianity. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
In a message dated 10/19/05 10:15:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sekhmet: Agreed, but please consider that they may do it with good intentions, because it's a loaded issue that can prompt a defensive (and not always polite) reaction from Muslims. Gilberto: Yeah, I see that. On both counts. But from my perspective, the sugar coating comes off as dishonest. It comes out looking as the denial of something which seems really evident and obvious to me. And that is more likely to get me angry and defensive than honest disagreement. Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You know? Yup, I understand (and may I safely assume from that last line that you're another Judge Judy fan? She rocks! g). Gilberto: I don't know if this is a Bahai/Muslim thing or if this about my personality specifically mixing with the Bahais who happen to be on this forum, or both. But I can actually be really really happy with honest disagreement.But I get the sense that Bahais put more value on agreement. Make that _some_ Baha'is put more value..., please! But barring that caveat, I agree with you; I've gotten the same sense myself from a few folks who seem to have forgotten the diversity part of our Unity in Diversity catchphrase. ;-) Gilberto: and won't admit that they are making these criticisms against Islamic principles when that is obviously what they are doing. S: Er, wait a sec-- how did we get from criticizing Muslims and their institutions and laws unsuitable for modern times to criticizing against Islamic principles? I'm not sure those things are interchangeable, Gilberto: I agree. Those are all different things. But I think the Bahai faith (in the writings) is critical of all of them. (See below...) Sekhmet: because my thinking is that when we get into the principles we're crossing over into the realm of differing interpretations of what Muhammad taught, rather than being in the realm of criticism. But I'm open to discussion about that. Gilberto: I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Muslim interpretation of what Muhammad taught as Islamic principles. The Bahai interpretation of what Muhammad (or the Bab or Bahaullah etc.) taught would be Bahai principles. So in that sense Bahais are critical of Islamic principles (e.g. the idea that the Islamic shariah is still valid, the idea that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet, etc.) Okay, if we define Islamic principles that way, then I agree that Baha'is disagree with some of them. But I don't think that the disagreement itself is criticism, or at least it doesn't need to be; it just _becomes_ criticism when we're not good at explaining the reasons for the disagreement-- for example, using the grade school analogy to try to illustrate Progressive Revelation without making it very, very clear that it is NOT a superiority/inferiority thing (which I've noticed very few of us Baha'is can manage to bring off successfully without at least a few irate squawks from our victim-- er, explainees g). Anyway, I think we're understanding each other's perspectives pretty well at this point, so I'll sign off on this subject unless you want to dig further into the above, or have other aspects you'd like to discuss specifically with me. --Sekhmet (back to lurking, I think g) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/17/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, Obviously Baha'is believe that Islamic laws are unsuitable for the modern-times. That's why we have Baha'i Laws. You think its obvious. And I think its obvious. But apparently alot of Bahais don't want to admit that their religion says this. -GilbertoYet, I must say that my Qur'an and Bibleareplaced next tomy Aqdas.
I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.
The Baha'iversion of thisbookwould include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.
Hajir
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Re: Interesting thread
Likewise, my Qur'an and Bible and al-Aqdas occupy the highest shelf of my bookshelf (about head-level), and I kiss everyone of them when I open and close them, and I read and study both. It seems dear Mr. Simpson that you are quick to judge.
ajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/17/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, Obviously Baha'is believe that Islamic laws are unsuitable for the modern-times. That's why we have Baha'i Laws. You think its obvious. And I think its obvious. But apparently alot of Bahais don't want to admit that their religion says this. -GilbertoYet, I must say that my Qur'an and Bibleareplaced next tomy Aqdas.
I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.
The Baha'iversion of thisbookwould include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.
Hajir
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Re: Interesting thread
On 10/18/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Baha'is should publish a book like the Bible which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover. The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas. Dear Hajir, Personally I think Christianity and the Bahai faith seem to have similar attitudes to what came before. Christians have a Bible with the Old Testament and the New Testament, but on some level they do have a disparaging attitude towards the Old Testament. The Old Testament laws are seen as a burden and Jesus (as) for some of them, came to free people from that burden. This is ground we've also covered in this forum before, but the fact that Christians might hold the Old Testament as inspired didn't stop Christian anti-semitism. I think Bahai attitudes towards previous religions are arguably complex, there is some sincerely held positive feelings. But there is also something else in the mix as well. You can emphasize the positive part, and that's a good thing. But that doesn't eliminate the negative side. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/18/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover. The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.Dear Hajir,Personally I think Christianity and the Bahai faith seem to havesimilar attitudes to what came before. Christians have a "Bible" withthe Old Testament and the New Testament, but on some level they dohave a disparaging attitude towards the Old Testament. The OldTestament laws are seen as a burden and Jesus (as) for some of them,came to free people from that burden. This is ground we've alsocovered in this forum before, but the fact that Christians might holdthe Old Testament as inspired didn't stop Christian anti-semitism.I think Bahai attitudes towards pre!
vious
religions are arguablycomplex, there is some sincerely held positive feelings. But there isalso something else in the mix as well.You can emphasize the positive part, and that's a good thing. But thatdoesn't eliminate the negative side.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto,
I have to very much agree with you on this. It is sometimes firmly entrenched in the way we think and communicate our beliefs to others.
I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that he had had a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as "kindergarten" and go on to explain how later revelations were higher grades.
This IS rather elitist in tone and many do not recognize it when they speak about progressive revelation.
When I went on to explain how each of the Messengers had the same depth of knowledge as each and every other one, but was limited in what He could transmit by the Will of God. He understood this softened the edge to a great deal.
I apologized for the lack of wisdom that was truly patent in that example and promised to take it into consideration whenever I spoke of progressive revelation.
So Muhammed had the same depth of Revelation as Baha`u'llah: admitted and acknowledged. And, in the Baha`i view each obeyed God's will in what They said and wrote to pass that Revelation on to mankind.
So, if I have erred in speaking to you, it was out of a desire to be honest and direct in what I have come to believe and to explain why I believe it, not to belittle what you believe nor why you believe it.
Regards,
ScottThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-s!
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/18/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover. The Baha'i version of this book would include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.Dear Hajir,Personally I think Christianity and the Bahai faith seem to havesimilar attitudes to what came before. Christians have a "Bible" withthe Old Testament and the New Testament, but on some level they dohave a disparaging attitude towards the Old Testament. The OldTestament laws are seen as a burden and Jesus (as) for some of them,came to free people from that burden. This is ground we've alsocovered in this forum before, but the fact that Christians might holdthe Old Testament as inspired didn't stop Christian anti-semitism.I think Bahai attitudes towards pre!
vious
religions are arguablycomplex, there is some sincerely held positive feelings. But there isalso something else in the mix as well.You can emphasize the positive part, and that's a good thing. But thatdoesn't eliminate the negative side.PeaceGilberto
Dear Gilberto,
I have to very much agree with you on this. It is sometimes firmly entrenched in the way we think and communicate our beliefs to others.
I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that he had had a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as "kindergarten" and go on to explain how later revelations were higher grades.
This IS rather elitist in tone and many do not recognize it when they speak about progressive revelation.
When I went on to explain how each of the Messengers had the same depth of knowledge as each and every other one, but was limited in what He could transmit by the Will of God. He understood this softened the edge to a great deal.
I apologized for the lack of wisdom that was truly patent in that example and promised to take it into consideration whenever I spoke of progressive revelation.
So Muhammed had the same depth of Revelation as Baha`u'llah: admitted and acknowledged. And, in the Baha`i view each obeyed God's will in what They said and wrote to pass that Revelation on to mankind.
So, if I have erred in speaking to you, it was out of a desire to be honest and direct in what I have come to believe and to explain why I believe it, not to belittle what you believe nor why you believe it.
Regards,
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Interesting thread
On 10/18/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to very much agree with you on this. It is sometimes firmly entrenched in the way we think and communicate our beliefs to others. I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that he had had a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as kindergarten and go on to explain how later revelations were higher grades. Yes, exactly. That is a VERY widespread kind of analogy. MANY of the analogies used to explain progressive revelation are like that. This IS rather elitist in tone and many do not recognize it when they speak about progressive revelation. Yes. When I went on to explain how each of the Messengers had the same depth of knowledge as each and every other one, but was limited in what He could transmit by the Will of God. He understood this softened the edge to a great deal. I think that that is an improvement but in some respects the problem is still there. I agree with you that the issue is firmly entrenched. But I think to satisfactorily deal with it would require a really radical rearrangement of mental furniture. And in particular, I think it is something that all people of faith need to wrestle with. I don't think that Bahais have any advantage here. In every religious community there are people who come off elitist and narrow, and in every religious community who are open and accepting of difference. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
Title: Message
'Abdu'l-Bah then shared some humorous stories and
laughingly stated that:
Once there were three passengers on a ship: a Muslim, a
Christian and a Jew.
The Muslim prayed, 'O God, take the life of this
Christian!'
The Christian prayed, 'Lord, slay this Muslim.'
Then they asked the Jew why he was not saying anything,
so he prayed, 'O God, accept the prayers of both of
them!'[44]
[Ahang Rabbani, Tarikh Mu'ayyad
5-6]
| I had a friend, a Jew, who honestly explained to me that
he|had had| a Bahai speak of the Judaic Revelation as
"kindergarten" and|go on to| explain how later revelations were
higher grades.|
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/17/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real question is how does the New Testament The Gospel. The Quran was a specific revelation given to Muhammad, and transmitted to the Muslim community and preserved by them. What I would suggest is that The Gospel is similar a revelation given to Jesus. Dear Gilberto, That seems to be the assumption of most Muslims going back to early times, but it appears to be based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus' revelation and how it was conveyed. And a misunderstanding of the nature of the Gospels themselves. If it is a misunderstanding, it is one that is easily found in the Bahai writings as well. In any case, what I'm saying doesn't depend on the particular understanding of what the Gospel is. Whether the Gospel is a specific revelation like the Quran, or whether the Gospel is somehow a mystical expression of Jesus' presence, or whether the Gospel is just the core Gospel message apart from any particular text, the core point is that the Gospel is still around in some form, even though the text of the NT is highly problematic. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Interesting thread
On 10/17/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we can be nearly as certain about the Qur'an as we can our own Writings. But I don't think in either case this means that there cannot be any errors whatsoever in transmission. But if there are errors in transmission what does it mean to be absolutely authentic -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread
The real question is how does the New Testament The Gospel. The That seems to be the assumption of most Muslims going back to early times, but it appears to be based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus' revelation and how it was conveyed. And a misunderstanding of the nature of the Gospels themselves. If it is a misunderstanding, it is one that is easily found in the Bahai writings as well. No, when Baha'u'llah speaks of the intergrity of the Gospels it is in the context of actually quoting them. There is no evidence that Muslims at the time of Muhammad had any access to the actual text. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
But if there are errors in transmission what does it mean to be absolutely authentic Dear Gilberto, I think he meant it came from a Manifestation rather than simply hearsay. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread
On 10/17/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real question is how does the New Testament The Gospel. The That seems to be the assumption of most Muslims going back to early times, but it appears to be based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus' revelation and how it was conveyed. And a misunderstanding of the nature of the Gospels themselves. If it is a misunderstanding, it is one that is easily found in the Bahai writings as well. No, when Baha'u'llah speaks of the intergrity of the Gospels it is in the context of actually quoting them. What I mean is that the Bahai writings speak of the Gospel as a single revelation given to Jesus. (I'm assuming that's what you were calling a misunderstanding. If not please clarify) Peace Gilberto -- There are no poets The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Interesting thread
The larger question is how do we make sense of the Bahai position that the Bahai writings and the Quran are wholly authentic absolutely authentic while hesitancy and qualifications are expressed when it comes to the Bible and the NT. But none of the NT was composed by Jesus, so by your definition the NT is not authentic at all. Dear Gilberto, I think what the Guardian is doing is making the distinction between a text which is directly from a Manifestation and a text which is effectively 'pilgrim's notes' or hadiths. We are much more careful in our use of the latter. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread
What I mean is that the Bahai writings speak of the Gospel as a single revelation given to Jesus. Can you show us some examples of what you are talking about? To my knowledge they don't. That is not to say they don't use the word Gospel in the singular but I don't think they use it in manner you suggest. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
