Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Friday 03 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: flash remoting just use WebORB if you have BD Last time I looked, WebORB was the same price again as BD. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285453 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, we were able to. It was something like $520 for two years. So, even if you had to pay twice to get CF7 and CF8, that's still cheaper than buying it outright. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285282 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fedora is the bleeding edge and thus nonstable version that is used as a test platform. This is a gross missrepresentation. Fedora Core is perfectly stable and usable in production. What it is not is *supported* - if anything goes wrong with CF you can't phone Adobe till you've rebased to RHE. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285283 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Friday 03 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's too much work hehehe :D Plus time is also money, so even if I go that route, it is not free. shrug It's not like you have to build it yourself, CentOS have ISOs and what have you too ya know :-) -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285284 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. Now *THAT* is perfectly reasonable. As long as you keep in mind that you're giving up a lot of features that Adobe Coldfusion offers that Bluedragon does not currently offer, like flash remoting, event gateways, cfreport, flash forms, cfexchange, cfpresentation, Rick We don't use flash remoting, cfreport, flash forms, cfexchange or cfpresentation. The gateways may be a problem (given a couple of projects involving real-time data collection from a couple of DNA/PCR analysis robots) but a possible work around may be using JMS. For most of what CF8 offers, Blue Dragon offers the same, and where it doesn't, there are open source java projects that we can integrate with our apps if we need that functionality. Essentially it was not a decision I was involved in (being just a peon when it comes to the bean counting stuff), but I can see the rationale used by the PHB's. The decision was about making a leap from cfmx 6.1 to either BD7 or cfmx8. The costs for upgrading from our current setup to BlueDragon7 plus a 2 year subscription was less than half the cost to upgrade 10+ servers to CFMX8 with no subscriptions at all. Moreover in terms of compatibility, I've had to change nothing so far to accommodate the switch, and deploying to JBoss is much easier than jrun. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285324 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Most companies that are using enterprise level products will not use the free versions of linux because there is no support for them. Ey need to have someone to call and be able to fix ASAP if something breaks. That would require one of the paid versions of linux that has a support plan, like RHE. Eric -Original Message- From: OÃuz_Demirkapı [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Use Debian! :) -Original Message- From: Eric Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 11:12 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin How...you are paying license fees for those OS's. If you want the stable version of Red Hat Linux...you have to buy RHE. Fedora is the bleeding edge and thus non-stable version that is used as a test platform. Eric ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285322 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
While I started this thread. I would not recommend anyone move to Blue Dragon to save money. There is not that much price difference at the enterprise level, you don't have the Adobe brand and support behind you and most importantly you don't have all the features. We use Cfreport, flash remoting, cfexchange and will use the new image, zip and lots of the ajax stuff which BD doesn't have. I actually think cfreport is one of the great unsung features of CF and with CFPRINT it gets a bit better. Imagine E-Commmerce online store, where whenever an order is placed you get an invoice or dispatch document automatically spit out on someone's printer, how cool is that. I'm not even sure how BD have a market, there is probably merit to offering a free version for non commercial use and hooking you in, this is really not much difference than developer edition (without the water marks). But it's a different mindset perhaps. For me to consider BD it would seriously need to be half the price or less. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2007 2:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. Now *THAT* is perfectly reasonable. As long as you keep in mind that you're giving up a lot of features that Adobe Coldfusion offers that Bluedragon does not currently offer, like flash remoting, event gateways, cfreport, flash forms, cfexchange, cfpresentation, Rick We don't use flash remoting, cfreport, flash forms, cfexchange or cfpresentation. The gateways may be a problem (given a couple of projects involving real-time data collection from a couple of DNA/PCR analysis robots) but a possible work around may be using JMS. For most of what CF8 offers, Blue Dragon offers the same, and where it doesn't, there are open source java projects that we can integrate with our apps if we need that functionality. Essentially it was not a decision I was involved in (being just a peon when it comes to the bean counting stuff), but I can see the rationale used by the PHB's. The decision was about making a leap from cfmx 6.1 to either BD7 or cfmx8. The costs for upgrading from our current setup to BlueDragon7 plus a 2 year subscription was less than half the cost to upgrade 10+ servers to CFMX8 with no subscriptions at all. Moreover in terms of compatibility, I've had to change nothing so far to accommodate the switch, and deploying to JBoss is much easier than jrun. ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285343 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 8/3/07, Eric Roberts wrote: Most companies that are using enterprise level products will not use the free versions of linux because there is no support for them. Ey need to have someone to call and be able to fix ASAP if something breaks. That would require one of the paid versions of linux that has a support plan, like RHE. That's besides the real point we're getting at though. You don't /have/ to buy RH, to run RH (legally). You could hire a work- study for pennies on the dollar, and get better support than that which comes with a Support Subscription (I've found this to be true with every product we've bought support for, BTW). Replace work-study with poor computer dude, if applicable. That is the difference, and it might be the difference that makes the techs that offer that advantage overtake those that don't. All that said, for all I know, this philosophy makes slaves of us all, or something like that- in the end. It sure seems nice from here, tho. =] ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285361 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Bump. j/k =] On 8/1/07, Sean Corfield wrote: On 8/1/07, James Holmes wrote: Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. On 8/1/07, Dinner wrote: Quite different from paying license fees tho, isn't that? In fact, that's kind of like what I'm talking about. I don't remember pricing up RHEL under maintenance but here's something I did look at: Yeah, I get the whole 6 of one argument, but I was thinking more along the lines of: you don't /have/ to pay for support. I don't think jboss or redhat restrict what's available to the general public. ( I don't know really, it's been a while since I used stuff besides fedora or centOS or whatnot. SuSE, at least when we were paying for it, was selling support, not the OS itself- we payed from the heart ;) I like the idea of four dudes throwing a bunch of cheap hardware together and creating some cool thing- why not make it easy to make things better for everyone? Give those heads who have only gumption and know-how a freaking chance- a niche, if you will. Of course it's really a dozen of this or a dozen of that in the end- but one's a baker's dozen! =-P __ I don't mean to come across like I know what I'm talking about, there could be huge factors I'm not considering, etc.. Like I've said before- it's fun to watch it all unfold =] PS- you still gotta pay for that hardware somehow, and traffic, so no matter what, it costs. Perhaps in the long view there is not as much difference as one would think. Eh.** Back to CF! ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285144 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. How so ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285153 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
ColdFusion 7 came out in February 2005. If you bought 7 then, with the two year subscription, then that subscription had expired before 8 was released so you got no benefit. If you happened to buy ColdFusion 7 from August 2005 onwards, woo hoo. On 02/08/07, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. How so ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285155 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
If I remember correctly the Subs said one Major Upgrade (well they did for 6 upto 7) So you may have a case there? But you should always renew your subs its always cheaper. -Original Message- From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 August 2007 10:23 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin ColdFusion 7 came out in February 2005. If you bought 7 then, with the two year subscription, then that subscription had expired before 8 was released so you got no benefit. If you happened to buy ColdFusion 7 from August 2005 onwards, woo hoo. On 02/08/07, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. How so ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285159 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you bought 7 then, with the two year subscription, then that subscription had expired before 8 was released so you got no benefit. Except the sub. gets you support, and you'll probably have renewed, so you'll get CF9 for free :-) -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285160 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Exactly ... subscriptions are good. On 02/08/07, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you bought 7 then, with the two year subscription, then that subscription had expired before 8 was released so you got no benefit. Except the sub. gets you support, and you'll probably have renewed, so you'll get CF9 for free :-) -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285161 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
How So? A Sub is for 24 months, which means you get free updates for 2 years. There hasn't been an upgrade for more than 2 years, which means you got nothing for your sub $ if you purchased CF7 + Sub when it got released. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2007 6:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. How so ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285162 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
No it doesn't. It says 12 months or 24 months, so it's a bit of pot luck. Although 8 releases in 12 years, the odds for a release in 2 years are good. This might be the first one that was more than 2 years not sure. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Big Mad Kev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2007 10:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin The idea of subs with all products is to make the upgrading cheaper, thus you keep the subs going your ensure your upgrade path is cheaper, I would suggest if you have subs and no free upgrade this time discuss with Adobe, as I'm sure it says One Major Release in that time. -Original Message- From: Dale Fraser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 August 2007 11:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin How So? A Sub is for 24 months, which means you get free updates for 2 years. There hasn't been an upgrade for more than 2 years, which means you got nothing for your sub $ if you purchased CF7 + Sub when it got released. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2007 6:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. How so ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285167 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
The idea of subs with all products is to make the upgrading cheaper, thus you keep the subs going your ensure your upgrade path is cheaper, I would suggest if you have subs and no free upgrade this time discuss with Adobe, as I'm sure it says One Major Release in that time. -Original Message- From: Dale Fraser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 August 2007 11:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin How So? A Sub is for 24 months, which means you get free updates for 2 years. There hasn't been an upgrade for more than 2 years, which means you got nothing for your sub $ if you purchased CF7 + Sub when it got released. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2007 6:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. How so ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285165 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Thursday 02 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: releases in 12 years, the odds for a release in 2 years are good. This might be the first one that was more than 2 years not sure. And was probably delayed because Macromedia got bought mid-way in the CF8 cycle. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285171 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
But, you can renew a subscription, correct? I was with the understanding that you make the first initial purchase of CF, then you can choose to purchase CF subscriptions for as long as you need. For example, before your two-year subscription expires, I thought you could renew that subscription without having to pay the full price again. Please correct me if I'm wrong. M!ke -Original Message- From: Dale Fraser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 7:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin No it doesn't. It says 12 months or 24 months, so it's a bit of pot luck. Although 8 releases in 12 years, the odds for a release in 2 years are good. This might be the first one that was more than 2 years not sure. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285177 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Ben Forta wrote: I know I am going to regret saying this, but what the heck ... Regardless of how anyone feels about the price change, just know that this decision was NOT made in a vacuum. In fact, the team polled lots of ColdFusion customers to ask them their opinion on this. And the general feedback, even from those who would rather we not charge more, was that the price change was fair and not inappropriate. I am very happy with the new price point of ColdFusion and especially with the fact that European customers are now paying prices that are on par with US prices. Jochem ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285180 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Yes, we were able to. It was something like $520 for two years. -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 9:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin But, you can renew a subscription, correct? I was with the understanding that you make the first initial purchase of CF, then you can choose to purchase CF subscriptions for as long as you need. For example, before your two-year subscription expires, I thought you could renew that subscription without having to pay the full price again. Please correct me if I'm wrong. M!ke This email message may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete this email message from your computer. CAUTION: The Agency of Human Services cannot ensure the confidentiality or security of email transmissions. ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285181 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 8/2/07, Eric Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did look into getting RHE at one point for my dev server since that was the supported version. You cannot just download a copy of RHE without the support package. Of course, you could download the sources for RHEL and build it yourself, which is what the CentOS and White Box distros do. The license that you are paying to Redhat is really for access to the RHN and response time on any issues you have. ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285218 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
How...you are paying license fees for those OS's. If you want the stable version of Red Hat Linux...you have to buy RHE. Fedora is the bleeding edge and thus non-stable version that is used as a test platform. Eric -Original Message- From: Dinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Quite different from paying license fees tho, isn't that? In fact, that's kind of like what I'm talking about. On 8/1/07, James Holmes wrote: Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. On 8/2/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By this argument, no enterprises use Linux, Apache, etc.- or some strange logic like that. Does that sound correct? ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285195 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Fedora and RHE are 2 different critters. So if you want RHE...you have to pay for it. I cannot comment on JBOSS as I an mot familiar with how they charge. I did look into getting RHE at one point for my dev server since that was the supported version. You cannot just download a copy of RHE without the support package. Eric -Original Message- From: Dinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 2:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Bump. j/k =] On 8/1/07, Sean Corfield wrote: On 8/1/07, James Holmes wrote: Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. On 8/1/07, Dinner wrote: Quite different from paying license fees tho, isn't that? In fact, that's kind of like what I'm talking about. I don't remember pricing up RHEL under maintenance but here's something I did look at: Yeah, I get the whole 6 of one argument, but I was thinking more along the lines of: you don't /have/ to pay for support. I don't think jboss or redhat restrict what's available to the general public. ( I don't know really, it's been a while since I used stuff besides fedora or centOS or whatnot. SuSE, at least when we were paying for it, was selling support, not the OS itself- we payed from the heart ;) I like the idea of four dudes throwing a bunch of cheap hardware together and creating some cool thing- why not make it easy to make things better for everyone? Give those heads who have only gumption and know-how a freaking chance- a niche, if you will. Of course it's really a dozen of this or a dozen of that in the end- but one's a baker's dozen! =-P __ I don't mean to come across like I know what I'm talking about, there could be huge factors I'm not considering, etc.. Like I've said before- it's fun to watch it all unfold =] PS- you still gotta pay for that hardware somehow, and traffic, so no matter what, it costs. Perhaps in the long view there is not as much difference as one would think. Eh.** Back to CF! ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285203 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
You are correct, I just did it a little while ago (about March). Saved a bundle! Steve -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 9:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin But, you can renew a subscription, correct? I was with the understanding that you make the first initial purchase of CF, then you can choose to purchase CF subscriptions for as long as you need. For example, before your two-year subscription expires, I thought you could renew that subscription without having to pay the full price again. Please correct me if I'm wrong. M!ke -Original Message- From: Dale Fraser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 7:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin No it doesn't. It says 12 months or 24 months, so it's a bit of pot luck. Although 8 releases in 12 years, the odds for a release in 2 years are good. This might be the first one that was more than 2 years not sure. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285247 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
That's too much work hehehe :-D Plus time is also money, so even if I go that route, it is not free. Eric -Original Message- From: Jim Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 11:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On 8/2/07, Eric Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did look into getting RHE at one point for my dev server since that was the supported version. You cannot just download a copy of RHE without the support package. Of course, you could download the sources for RHEL and build it yourself, which is what the CentOS and White Box distros do. The license that you are paying to Redhat is really for access to the RHN and response time on any issues you have. ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285267 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Use Debian! :) -Original Message- From: Eric Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 11:12 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin How...you are paying license fees for those OS's. If you want the stable version of Red Hat Linux...you have to buy RHE. Fedora is the bleeding edge and thus non-stable version that is used as a test platform. Eric ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285257 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
You have to use the Thin client and then it works fine. Eric -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Unless the Oracle supplied driver has changed recently, some things don't work the same as the DataDirect CF Oracle driver, like stored procs returning results from ref cursors and BLOBS. If it has changed, great. On 7/31/07, Mark Mandel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles, Why not just use Standard, and use the free JDBC drivers you can download from Oracle themselves, and just make an 'other' connection? What's the problem with that? I hate to say this, I have to wonder - if your business is complaining about paying ~10K for their server software, (or less), then you probably struggle to qualify for the 'enterprise' target that ColdFusion really is targeted for. (and most of us aren't, we're just paying for upgrades). Maybe I'm too far removed from the bean counters (and that is quite possible), but I actually am quite confused by all of this noise. I'm actually sitting back and looking at all the new features that were put in Standard, which is meant for people who aren't enterprise, and going 'cool! loads of new stuff, without a price hike... nice work for targeting those that aren't enterprise, and essentially giving them more for less cost in a product'. Mark On 7/31/07, Charles E. Heizer1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, I have to agree with Dale... Adobe has put a bullet in CF. For example, Standard Edition would be fine for me but I need Oracle access and now I need to pay twice that just to do supported Oracle connectivity. We are an enterprise and when I discussed this with management they came back and said we should just invest our time in ASP.NET. We can retrain our developers, and not worry about buying upgrades and we'll get new features as they come out. You know, I don't disagree with them. I just recently started playing with Visual Studio .Net, and it's far easier to write web services and create great web content. Adobe thanks for the memories, a user/developer since version 4.5. - Charles On 7/30/07 5:27 AM, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to echo what Sean said...I looked at CF8 and thought, wow finally a product that I would really label Enterprise. Not to say CF7 wasn't Enterprise, it had some great features and was a great release, but I think the monitoring and some of the Administration changes helped make it really enterprise friendly. Thats not mentioning the performance enhancements, exchange integration (which currently means nothing to Lotus Shops bleh), and whole suite of ajax tools that really make CF shine as a UI web layer for large Java apps. You have to look at this product and realize enterprise is worthless to you unless you really need super scalability. Standard has it all, albeit limited/throttled. Sure cfthread and exchange integration and PDF (?) are throttled but they are available and until you have 100+ (dare I say probably more) concurrent users using the exact same functionality Enterprise means very little. Its like a computer, my Mom doesn't need a dual core 64bit AMD with 2gig of ram and 256mb dedicate graphics card running iSCSI to send me pictures and read email (unless she is running Vista then she might ;) ). Gone are the days where you have to have enterprise to play with those nifty event gateways. If enterprise looks to expensive to you then you probably don't need it, or you need to look at some other Enterprise software costs and revisit in 15 minutes. Hell I say that single move by Adobe to offer a more complete Standard Edition will open more doors for ColdFusion than any single feature. I say Bravo! Adam Haskell On 7/30/07, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/29/07, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for your post on CF 8 being a dead product because of the price increase, note that the increase if for Enterprise. How many people here (other than me) actually use or need enterprise. Me! To be honest, the difference between $3,000/CPU and $3,750/CPU is pretty negligible in an enterprise world. For the - new-in-8 - (multi-)server monitoring and RDS/Admin user management features, unlimited CFTHREAD and unlimited MS Exchange integration, that extra $750/CPU is well worth it (as well as the general reasons Enterprise is worth paying more for: unlimited event gateways, PDF/document services, reporting etc). The key thing everyone should be rejoicing about is that Standard Edition includes: event gateways, pdf/document services, cfthread, MS Exchange integration, reporting, presentation generation. There would be a lot of complaints if these were Enterprise only features. There were plenty of complaints around CFMX 7 because event
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Dale, I did a quick search for software pricing to put the CF8 pricing in some perspective.. Windows 2003 Enterprise 3,443 Windows 2003 Standard 958 Oracle 10g Enterprise 40,000 Oracle 10g Standard 4,995 Sql Server Enterprise 13,699 Sql Server Standard 1,754 JBoss Enterprise 4,500 Now as far as software goes, CF8 is reasonably priced. If you look at just J2ee servers or Web app servers, yea CF8 Ent is very high. You might want to look at some other J2EE app servers, if you thing CF 8 is priced comparatively high. WebSphere, WebLogic, Oracle AS ... Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284988 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Agreed... And from that I will add that I am about to release in the next few weeks a CFReport clone, based of a java open source project the technology I chose actually rocks, and compared to Crystal Reports it rocks and the designer is by far the best I have seen even better than JasperReports and that is saying something. I not only wrote this in JSTL, and as a servlet, but it took me very little time that we are going to use across all our projects plus more. As far as PDF, and flex goes there are plenty of open source alternatives that are going to kill Coldfusion. Adobe needs to do something and do it fast, otherwise there will be very little usage as far as Coldfusion goes in the market place. On 8/1/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another thing to keep in mind, is, Open Source. It's starting to Crush, you know? Still hasn't flipped the script, but we're getting close. Seriously close. Guess it's sorta like the tulip thing, or whatever- The stock market, etc.- You ride as long as you can, and hope you don't stay too long (wipeout). I don't mind if Adobe wants to ride the wave for a bit more- heck, seems logical- but mark my words, it will be a different model in not-too-long. Sorta. The more things change... Ha! Mark my words... I love that. Mark 'em! =P PS just delete this if it's too off topic :) ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285016 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. These discussions simply remind me of the user blackmail that we get with CFEclipse: If you dont add this feature, we are moving to homesite! I like it when irrational people move away from CF. It makes the rest of us more-valuable. M!ke you know the insults are not really necessary. ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285018 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
We have a subscription. We called Adobe today and apparently we are waiting for a coupon code to arrive in our E-mail. This might take up to two weeks they said. I sure am glad we got the subscription, but 2 weeks feels like forever right now. :) ~Brad -Original Message- From: Tony [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 1:41 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin any idea when those of us with the upgrade subscription thingie can expect our copies to show up? thanks tony :) ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285006 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
There might be more, but the only throttle in standard that I know of right off is that the cfdocument tag is single-threaded. Only one can execute on the server at a time. ~Brad PS: Everyone will be very interested now in where they can find clear info on how the standard features are throttled, I for one don't want to start debugging code when things go slow to find that the server is doing this. I want to know in advance of what every limit is. Does such a document exist? ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285009 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 8/1/07, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS: Everyone will be very interested now in where they can find clear info on how the standard features are throttled, I for one don't want to start debugging code when things go slow to find that the server is doing this. I want to know in advance of what every limit is. Does such a document exist? I want to know this too. -- mac jordan home: www.kestrel.org work: www.webhorus.net them: www.jordan-cats.org ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285024 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I personally would love to see a 'Coldfusion Express' edition come out again, like back in the Allaire days. Access to CFQuery, output, loops, cfif and logic, cffile, etc. Basically, nothing that cost Adobe any licensing costs to integrate (maybe sans built-in DB support, just let users add JDBC / ODBC drivers). I think if they were to compete with ..NET on a free level, we would have a ton more developers learning the language, and a lot less complaining about price. Chris Peterson Gainey IT Adobe Certified Advanced Coldfusion Developer -Original Message- Another point for the Adobe people, I remember when the standard/enterprise started and there was a lot complaining back then. With the price gap getting wider, maybe it's time for a third version, let's call it a Business version. That provides some of the least costly new features and provides a bridge (or stepping stone) from standard to enterprise. I think that would solve a lot of issues with this and take almost nothing for Adobe to do. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285031 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
If this thread goes on any longer I am going to double the price of CFEclipse so it fits into the Enterprise Market. We are in no way an enterprise company, but the price increase is basically 2 days of a developer. With the Ajax features, we have already made that money back. MD ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285032 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On Wednesday 01 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this thread goes on any longer I am going to double the price of CFEclipse so it fits into the Enterprise Market. So we can advertise CFEclipse as 'twice as free' now, right ? :-) -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285035 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Larry Why move at all? I mean, the reason you would upgrade is to get features you dont currently have. Saying you will move to another engine which .. err.. last time I looked, didnt have those features, well, go for it! Here's a possible reason: suppose he needs to deploy on JBoss and JDK 1.6? If he's currently running CFMX7, that configuration isn't supported. This leaves him two options: BD 7.0 or CF8. If price is important to him and he doesn't need the new CF8 features that BD 7.0 doesn't support, then BD 7.0 is a valid choice. Or, here's another possibility: what if what he really needs is not just Java-to-.NET bridging (as provided in CF8), but full integration with ASP.NET such as the ability to do session sharing? In this case, BlueDragon.NET 7.0 is the only choice. There are many new features in CF8 that are already supported by BD 7.0 (or earlier releases). None of these features are in CFMX7, but can be found in both BD 7.0 and CF8: - .NET integration - image processing (CFIMAGE) - query caching with CFQUERYPARAM - CFC serialization (J2EE Session scope clustering) - duplicate() for CFCs - CFC interfaces - multi-threaded programming (CFTHREAD) - per-application mappings - CFZIP/CFZIPPARAM - onMissingTemplate event handler for Application.cfc - Windows Vista / IIS7 support - Mac OS X Intel support - JBoss support - JDK 1.5 and 1.6 support Yes, there are features in CF8 that aren't in BD 7.0; there are also features in BD 7.0 that aren't in CF8. The relevant questions are: which features do you want, and how much do you want to pay? My point is: it's not at all irrational or unreasonable for ATCC or others to choose BD 7.0 over CF8, if BD 7.0 provides a better combination of features and price to meet their needs. ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285034 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Dale, I did a quick search for software pricing to put the CF8 pricing in some perspective.. Windows 2003 Enterprise 3,443 Windows 2003 Standard 958 Oracle 10g Enterprise 40,000 Oracle 10g Standard 4,995 Sql Server Enterprise 13,699 Sql Server Standard 1,754 JBoss Enterprise 4,500 I'm not sure if this pricing is an accurate representation. Sure SQL server standard is around $1800 with 5 CALs, but if you want to use it for a web app, you will need a per processor license. Let's say you have a standard dual core 2 duo box. That's 4 virtual processors. If I'm reading the licensing terms correctly, you would need 4 processor licenses (assuming you want to utilize all 4 processors). This comes out to $5999 per processor x 4 processors, $23996 for the standard version, $24,999 per processor x 4 processors, $95984 for the enterprise version. Of course if you're buying the enterprise version, you're probably doing it for failover or some sort of clustering, in which case you will likely have 2 servers, so it will be close to $200k for the enterprise version. Of course there's the express version, which does most of what you would need as long as you don't need more then 1 cpu, 1GB of ram and 4GB of db size. I think MS did a good move by releasing the express version. This might hurt sales, as a lot of people would be happy with just the express version, but once people start outgrowing it, they will have no choice but to plunk down $6k per CPU for the standard edition. Mind you that CF only charges per physical processor and the enterprise license covers 2 physical CPUs (last time I checked). This means you can have 2 quad-core or higher CPUs and you're good as far as CF is concenrned. You can also have unlimited virtual machines on the 2 physical CPUs, and run a copy of standard edition in each of them, and you're still good as far as licensing is concerned. Russ ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285043 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Why could you not provide the license free or at reduced price and pad the cost into other invoice items? When I buy stuff on the web, I am a sucker for free shipping - knowing that it's not really free. If a client balks at buying a server license, why not sell them a dedicated hosting plan with CF support so that the cost is spread out over months? You have to take advantage of the fact that most people can't do basic math. When I visit a car dealership, the salesman might *like* to sell me a Shelby Mustang, but if I only have $15,000 to spend he will not let me leave the car lot without trying to sell me a used Ford Focus. The point I'm getting to is that this has nothing to do with Adobe's pricing, and it has everything to do with salesmanship. -Original Message- From: Robert Harrison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:44 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin I just want to get Adobe to drop the price. It's a hard sell to some clients and we've lost some opportunities because of it. I'll always continue to use CF as my mainstay, but also learning .net is not a bad thing... And whenever we have lost a site it's always been to .net technology. For what it's worth I've always been, and still am a CF advocate. But the reality is it's a business market and it's doesn't hurt to have alternative options to give your clients. ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285042 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
*handing Brad a sense of humor*...it was a joke. Relax... I think Google is an unofficial part of the community.It's probably one of the more valuable resources for CF besides CFWACK and this list... Eric -Original Message- From: Brad Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Lol. Thanks's for the insult. I purposely asked on the list because: 1) It was a thread that actually technical for once 2) I figured other people could benefit from the answer 3) I wanted to know how Brian was using it in the context of CF, which Google probably won't tell me. Kind of like when you ask a question in the class for the benefit of everyone else as much as yourself. Heck, we could just shut this list down, and forward all houseoffusion traffic to www.justfriggingoogleit.com but that would sort of defeat the community, wouldn't it? ~Brad -Original Message- From: Rick Root [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 2:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On 7/30/07, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sure sounds cool. What is it? www.justfuckinggoogleit.com http://www.google.com/search?q=fips+140 ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285048 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
We just purchased SQL Server licenses and it's only the actual processor that counts. You could have a quad core and it would only be one license. -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Dale, I did a quick search for software pricing to put the CF8 pricing in some perspective.. Windows 2003 Enterprise 3,443 Windows 2003 Standard 958 Oracle 10g Enterprise 40,000 Oracle 10g Standard 4,995 Sql Server Enterprise 13,699 Sql Server Standard 1,754 JBoss Enterprise 4,500 I'm not sure if this pricing is an accurate representation. Sure SQL server standard is around $1800 with 5 CALs, but if you want to use it for a web app, you will need a per processor license. Let's say you have a standard dual core 2 duo box. That's 4 virtual processors. If I'm reading the licensing terms correctly, you would need 4 processor licenses (assuming you want to utilize all 4 processors). This comes out to $5999 per processor x 4 processors, $23996 for the standard version, $24,999 per processor x 4 processors, $95984 for the enterprise version. Of course if you're buying the enterprise version, you're probably doing it for failover or some sort of clustering, in which case you will likely have 2 servers, so it will be close to $200k for the enterprise version. Of course there's the express version, which does most of what you would need as long as you don't need more then 1 cpu, 1GB of ram and 4GB of db size. I think MS did a good move by releasing the express version. This might hurt sales, as a lot of people would be happy with just the express version, but once people start outgrowing it, they will have no choice but to plunk down $6k per CPU for the standard edition. Mind you that CF only charges per physical processor and the enterprise license covers 2 physical CPUs (last time I checked). This means you can have 2 quad-core or higher CPUs and you're good as far as CF is concenrned. You can also have unlimited virtual machines on the 2 physical CPUs, and run a copy of standard edition in each of them, and you're still good as far as licensing is concerned. Russ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285047 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
We can also hearken back to the old article Ben Forta wrote in regards to ASP being free (this can relate to .NET and PHP). Keep in mind, this article is several years old (I believe he wrote it when CF5 was the current version). Ben estimated, that through either cost of development time or cost of purchasing modules to upgrade ASP's functionality, to get ASP up to the same functional level as CF is right out of the box, it would cost over $36,000. I wonder what that cost breakdown would be today between CF8 features and J2EE servers without CF, .NET, and PHP? While the initial cost may be cheaper or free, the actual cost is more than likely going to be a lot greater (I would include the cost of training as well and the time costs required for gaining proficiency in the respective languages). I bet the results would show that .Net and PHP are not so cost effective. Eric -Original Message- From: Dinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On 7/31/07, John Mason wrote: . JBoss Enterprise4,500 Hey, here's an apple! Another point for the Adobe people, I remember when the standard/enterprise started and there was a lot complaining back then. With the price gap getting wider, maybe it's time for a third version, let's call it a Business version. That provides some of the least costly new features and provides a bridge (or stepping stone) from standard to enterprise. I think that would solve a lot of issues with this and take almost nothing for Adobe to do. Excellent post, and idea! I love the places that are like, well, what do you do? How much money do you make? Etc., etc. and then have the price-swaying power to work with you. Compromise, in some cases, and just plain helping a brother out, in others. Probably hell on the accountants, and whatnot, and you got X complaining that Y got Z for AA, or whatever. Still, I've seen it work (and IIRC, with CF, back in the day). Eh. Great post tho, thanks. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285052 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I really this this horse is dead, and has been dead for a while. The truth is that if you go to a Cadillac dealer with $15,000 they tell me to go to another dealership. Billy Cox wrote: Why could you not provide the license free or at reduced price and pad the cost into other invoice items? When I buy stuff on the web, I am a sucker for free shipping - knowing that it's not really free. If a client balks at buying a server license, why not sell them a dedicated hosting plan with CF support so that the cost is spread out over months? You have to take advantage of the fact that most people can't do basic math. When I visit a car dealership, the salesman might *like* to sell me a Shelby Mustang, but if I only have $15,000 to spend he will not let me leave the car lot without trying to sell me a used Ford Focus. The point I'm getting to is that this has nothing to do with Adobe's pricing, and it has everything to do with salesmanship. -Original Message- From: Robert Harrison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:44 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin I just want to get Adobe to drop the price. It's a hard sell to some clients and we've lost some opportunities because of it. I'll always continue to use CF as my mainstay, but also learning .net is not a bad thing... And whenever we have lost a site it's always been to .net technology. For what it's worth I've always been, and still am a CF advocate. But the reality is it's a business market and it's doesn't hurt to have alternative options to give your clients. ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285051 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
See below -Original Message- From: Dale Fraser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:57 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Ben, snipped I mainly get upset due to the fact that CF is always being compared to free products, PHP, .NET Java and I constantly have to justify the price, to me and a lot of others this price increase was just unexpected. I really wonder how many people who were going to purchase Enterprise purchased Standard instead, either due to the price or the fact that standard has more features. It gets compared because the talking heads are deceptive when they say that they are free, when in reality they are not. Allaire/Macromedia/Adobe also have some guilt in this in that none of them ever countered this. As I said in a previous posting, Ben wrote an article about this for CFDJ, but that was the only mention of this disparity in the truth. Allaire/Macromedia/Adobe should be using this information to contradict this misinformation campaign and they have all failed miserably in this and other marketing aspects. Maybe a good suggestion for the adobe folks would be to put up a product comparison page that shows the approximate costs (both development and purchase) costs to get the other languages up to par with CF out of the box. Someone needs to give the Adobe marketing team a good swift kick in the behind and get them on the ball. ** Sean, I can't imagine they will sell more Enterprise because if it's more expensive people will think it's a real Enterprise product. You say I don't understand the enterprise market, well you are wrong, I am one of these customers. If you understood enterprise's you would surely know that budgets and plans for expenditure need to be submitted at the start of the financial year. I am now one less enterprise customer, but I guess they can afford to lose 25% of the enterprise customers and still break even. *** You would be surprised on just how stupid executives can be in big companies. I have heard this more than I care to remember. It does sound really asinine, because, well...it is very asinine, but that is how they think. They are used to enterprise level products that cost in the 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars (I remember doing some research on this an there was a java based product (this was about 10 years ago) that cost 100k...so I am not exaggerating. Look at Oracle web services...that costs over 10k and all that offers is a Java development platform that works with the database.) This is kind of a self-image issue as well. If they paid this much and can justify what they paid for these other products, how can CF be a worthy product if it is so cheap compared to these other products? If there is a product that is a qualified and useful enterprise level web development solution that is that cheap, then they were pretty stupid to spend 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars on the other stuff. Most also have discretionary spending allowed for in the budget or are allowed some leeway for instances like that. I am sure that if you went to your bosses and say, hey they increased the price by 750(?) a CPU...we need x amount of dollars added to our budget to cover this unexpected increase...I am sure they would ok it. All the in you had was that there probably wouldn't be an increase, so you could not have guessed that there would be. Unless you work for a really small company (and I mean really small...and if it is...then as several had stated before...you probably don't need enterprise anyway), if your company is that inflexible that they cannot absorb a couple of thousand dollars in this, then they might just have grater issues that should concern you more. *** snipped PS: Everyone will be very interested now in where they can find clear info on how the standard features are throttled, I for one don't want to start debugging code when things go slow to find that the server is doing this. I want to know in advance of what every limit is. Does such a document exist? Regards Dale Fraser * I would agree..that would be useful info...Oh Adobe Eric ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285061 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
One of the points here was that other software has more of a price spread than Adobe CF currently. Don't get too focused in on the numbers. The other point was that enterprise level software is expensive. Surprise! Sure there's J2EE stuff that as expensive if not more, I stand corrected there. But Microsoft, Oracle (to some point) and others have layers of product versions to cover the purchasing power our their customers. To use a car analogy. Not everyone can afford an Aston-Martin DB5 but they don't want a used 70's VW bug either. There's a range that all the car companies cover with slightly different lines. The same is true for software. It's actually good, it means there's a big enough market for CF to have a real price spread of more than 2 versions. If Adobe ran a simple pricing analysis, I bet with a new 'business version' they would end up making more money than having just Standard/Enterprise versions. John Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] 770.337.8363 www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin We just purchased SQL Server licenses and it's only the actual processor that counts. You could have a quad core and it would only be one license. -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Dale, I did a quick search for software pricing to put the CF8 pricing in some perspective.. Windows 2003 Enterprise 3,443 Windows 2003 Standard 958 Oracle 10g Enterprise 40,000 Oracle 10g Standard 4,995 Sql Server Enterprise 13,699 Sql Server Standard 1,754 JBoss Enterprise 4,500 I'm not sure if this pricing is an accurate representation. Sure SQL server standard is around $1800 with 5 CALs, but if you want to use it for a web app, you will need a per processor license. Let's say you have a standard dual core 2 duo box. That's 4 virtual processors. If I'm reading the licensing terms correctly, you would need 4 processor licenses (assuming you want to utilize all 4 processors). This comes out to $5999 per processor x 4 processors, $23996 for the standard version, $24,999 per processor x 4 processors, $95984 for the enterprise version. Of course if you're buying the enterprise version, you're probably doing it for failover or some sort of clustering, in which case you will likely have 2 servers, so it will be close to $200k for the enterprise version. Of course there's the express version, which does most of what you would need as long as you don't need more then 1 cpu, 1GB of ram and 4GB of db size. I think MS did a good move by releasing the express version. This might hurt sales, as a lot of people would be happy with just the express version, but once people start outgrowing it, they will have no choice but to plunk down $6k per CPU for the standard edition. Mind you that CF only charges per physical processor and the enterprise license covers 2 physical CPUs (last time I checked). This means you can have 2 quad-core or higher CPUs and you're good as far as CF is concenrned. You can also have unlimited virtual machines on the 2 physical CPUs, and run a copy of standard edition in each of them, and you're still good as far as licensing is concerned. Russ ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285060 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Nope...just good competition that will just improve CF in the long run. Eric -Original Message- From: Vince Bonfanti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:17 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Larry Why move at all? I mean, the reason you would upgrade is to get features you dont currently have. Saying you will move to another engine which .. err.. last time I looked, didnt have those features, well, go for it! Here's a possible reason: suppose he needs to deploy on JBoss and JDK 1.6? If he's currently running CFMX7, that configuration isn't supported. This leaves him two options: BD 7.0 or CF8. If price is important to him and he doesn't need the new CF8 features that BD 7.0 doesn't support, then BD 7.0 is a valid choice. Or, here's another possibility: what if what he really needs is not just Java-to-.NET bridging (as provided in CF8), but full integration with ASP.NET such as the ability to do session sharing? In this case, BlueDragon.NET 7.0 is the only choice. There are many new features in CF8 that are already supported by BD 7.0 (or earlier releases). None of these features are in CFMX7, but can be found in both BD 7.0 and CF8: - .NET integration - image processing (CFIMAGE) - query caching with CFQUERYPARAM - CFC serialization (J2EE Session scope clustering) - duplicate() for CFCs - CFC interfaces - multi-threaded programming (CFTHREAD) - per-application mappings - CFZIP/CFZIPPARAM - onMissingTemplate event handler for Application.cfc - Windows Vista / IIS7 support - Mac OS X Intel support - JBoss support - JDK 1.5 and 1.6 support Yes, there are features in CF8 that aren't in BD 7.0; there are also features in BD 7.0 that aren't in CF8. The relevant questions are: which features do you want, and how much do you want to pay? My point is: it's not at all irrational or unreasonable for ATCC or others to choose BD 7.0 over CF8, if BD 7.0 provides a better combination of features and price to meet their needs. ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285074 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I will keep that in mind...I just know that was the solution for 6 and 7. I would assume they would be releasing something that is compatable with 1.6 in the near future. Mark this down as one of the many reasons why I dislike Oracle *grin*. Eric -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin A quick check of the latest Oracle thin client download page shows that Java up to 1.5 is supported. Since CF8 ships with Java 6, there may be a further issue. On 8/1/07, Eric Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have to use the Thin client and then it works fine. Eric -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Unless the Oracle supplied driver has changed recently, some things don't work the same as the DataDirect CF Oracle driver, like stored procs returning results from ref cursors and BLOBS. If it has changed, great. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285072 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
ROFL -Original Message- From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:34 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On Wednesday 01 Aug 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this thread goes on any longer I am going to double the price of CFEclipse so it fits into the Enterprise Market. So we can advertise CFEclipse as 'twice as free' now, right ? :-) -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285075 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Refer to my post late last night. I outlined exactly what features are throttled in standard in the Server Monitoring in Standard thread. It's all available here: http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/pdfs/cf8_featurecomp.pdf ~Brad === PS: Everyone will be very interested now in where they can find clear info on how the standard features are throttled, I for one don't want to start debugging code when things go slow to find that the server is doing this. I want to know in advance of what every limit is. Does such a document exist? Regards Dale Fraser * I would agree..that would be useful info...Oh Adobe Eric ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285088 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/31/07, Sean Corfield wrote: Change the comparison. It should not be about technologies, it should be about solutions. This, actually, is one of my points- It seems like it's all about the tech, vs. the solutions. Solutions-wize, is actually where PHP and the other Open Languages are challenging CF. Because of Open Source, if you ask me, but hey, the fact remains, that PHP, etc. solutions are getting pretty freaking slick. Easy, good UI design, etc.. Talk about Rapid! Sheesh! Just playing with the (free) PHP plug-ins my host offers blew me away. You could be half-brain dead and whip out a pretty nifty solution. -This is not how it used to be.- Not to mention, they're not server/CPU centric like ColdFusion. (Re: the google method, or whatever- farms or flocks, as the case may be) And CF is more a means, vs. a solution, I reckon. Depending. Since it's all solutions enveloped with/in solutions, or whatever. ** I just can't stand this talk of it's a hard sell to the enterprise cuz it's so inexpensive (not cheap, tho ;) being justification for a price hike. The hard work put in, sure- but the appearance argument pisses me of a bit. The idea that money doesn't matter to enterprises, is ludicrous. Seems like people think enterprise means unlimited $$? Or that value is assessed using a single vector? The Price of X?!?! By this argument, no enterprises use Linux, Apache, etc.- or some strange logic like that. Does that sound correct? ROI is easy, right, since everyone and their grandma is a millionaire? Oh, what, you mean it's as complicated a topic as you'd like it to be? *sigh* I see. ** Depends on your time frame, I guess. So... calculating value is really that easy for folks, huh? Man, I'm a freaking mess, I reckon. I find it sorta hard. Intangible, even. ** I've never been much of one for licensing, tho. Support, sure- work, fine- but money for having an idea? Seems like cheating. I wonder what the world would be like if everything went public domain after 7 years or whatever. ** Ok, enough crazyness. Peace! __ Sell people (the good way;) (or hardware). PS says the dude making $25 an hour ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285106 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Sean Your facts need review Ben did not say that anyone argued for *lower* prices. I expect several people argued for even higher prices than we got. I never said he did, I said everyone who might have fought for a lower price. Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) Wrong, CF7 came out more than 2 years ago so everyone who bought a subscription with CF7 release wasted their money. Dude, I've been an enterprise systems architect for decades helping large corporates with planning and budgets for software and Yes I've managed multi million dollar projects, but you seem to think you are the only one to be a real enterprise customer, and you just skipped over the whole budgeting process that I was talking about. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 1 August 2007 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On 7/31/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your response. I understand that it's not your decision and that there are factors that impact pricing. I also understand that not everyone who might have fought for a lower price can always win, it's good that you had an opportunity to voice your opinion. Ben did not say that anyone argued for *lower* prices. I expect several people argued for even higher prices than we got. As I said in the original post CF8 is a great product and I have purchased it already. I purchased Standard however when I had budget for Enterprise, the 25% increase done at launch gave me no opportunity to budget or plan for this expenditure. Well, you should have bought maintenance then, shouldn't you? :) I mainly get upset due to the fact that CF is always being compared to free products, PHP, .NET Java and I constantly have to justify the price Change the comparison. It should not be about technologies, it should be about solutions. I can't imagine they will sell more Enterprise because if it's more expensive people will think it's a real Enterprise product. You say I don't understand the enterprise market, well you are wrong No, I'm right. You are wrong. If you were truly an enterprise customer - buying enterprise software (as opposed to a customer that happened to buy Enterprise Edition), you would be only too aware that CF is extremely cheap and looks out of place on many infrastructure plans. The higher price will be easier to sell to enterprises. Personally, I think it's still too cheap. I think $9,995 for 2 CPUs would be a better price for enterprise infrastructure budgets. If you understood enterprise's you would surely know that budgets and plans for expenditure need to be submitted at the start of the financial Dude, I've been an enterprise systems architect for decades helping large corporates with planning and budgets for software and infrastructure. I understand the enterprise market very well. I moved to America because a company wanted my organization to pick up small contracts... ones that involved less than $1m of licenses for their software. I think the smallest software project we took on was $375k. Mostly they were around $750k. At one point we created a *prototype* for a European company where the budget was 750k GBP. For a *prototype*! The second phase of the project was a multi-million pound project (which they took to another company and, after they'd failed - and cost them millions - they brought the project back to us). Half a dozen CF Enterprise licenses would have been lost in the line items in most of those projects. PS: Everyone will be very interested now in where they can find clear info on how the standard features are throttled ... Does such a document exist? If you read the product documentation, this is all very clearly explained. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285105 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 8/1/07, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There might be more, but the only throttle in standard that I know of right off is that the cfdocument tag is single-threaded. Only one can execute on the server at a time. I asked Google for adobe.com EFR ColdFusion and found some very information comments in this thread: http://www.forta.com/blog/index.cfm/2007/7/30/ColdFusion-8-Is-Here Jason Delmore, ColdFusion Product Manager, explains (more than once) what the EFR does. He also points folks to the new Performance Brief published on the website. And he addresses the number of sites you can run on Standard (by confirming the guideline statement that was explained elsewhere in this thread). As I noted (elsewhere in this thread I think?), if each EFR-throttled request takes less than five seconds (extremely likely!) then you can serve about 17k such requests per day. If each request takes two seconds or less, you can serve about 43k such requests per day. That's in addition to requests for all the non-EFR features in your app. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285108 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I also have to say that Groovy and Grails are awesome as well... We use both here, and I am impressed. On 8/2/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/31/07, Sean Corfield wrote: Change the comparison. It should not be about technologies, it should be about solutions. This, actually, is one of my points- It seems like it's all about the tech, vs. the solutions. Solutions-wize, is actually where PHP and the other Open Languages are challenging CF. Because of Open Source, if you ask me, but hey, the fact remains, that PHP, etc. solutions are getting pretty freaking slick. Easy, good UI design, etc.. Talk about Rapid! Sheesh! Just playing with the (free) PHP plug-ins my host offers blew me away. You could be half-brain dead and whip out a pretty nifty solution. -This is not how it used to be.- Not to mention, they're not server/CPU centric like ColdFusion. (Re: the google method, or whatever- farms or flocks, as the case may be) And CF is more a means, vs. a solution, I reckon. Depending. Since it's all solutions enveloped with/in solutions, or whatever. ** I just can't stand this talk of it's a hard sell to the enterprise cuz it's so inexpensive (not cheap, tho ;) being justification for a price hike. The hard work put in, sure- but the appearance argument pisses me of a bit. The idea that money doesn't matter to enterprises, is ludicrous. Seems like people think enterprise means unlimited $$? Or that value is assessed using a single vector? The Price of X?!?! By this argument, no enterprises use Linux, Apache, etc.- or some strange logic like that. Does that sound correct? ROI is easy, right, since everyone and their grandma is a millionaire? Oh, what, you mean it's as complicated a topic as you'd like it to be? *sigh* I see. ** Depends on your time frame, I guess. So... calculating value is really that easy for folks, huh? Man, I'm a freaking mess, I reckon. I find it sorta hard. Intangible, even. ** I've never been much of one for licensing, tho. Support, sure- work, fine- but money for having an idea? Seems like cheating. I wonder what the world would be like if everything went public domain after 7 years or whatever. ** Ok, enough crazyness. Peace! __ Sell people (the good way;) (or hardware). PS says the dude making $25 an hour ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285110 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. On 8/2/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By this argument, no enterprises use Linux, Apache, etc.- or some strange logic like that. Does that sound correct? -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285114 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
BlueDragon have come out with a price comparison http://blog.newatlanta.com/index.cfm?mode=entryentry=AE646136-1572-8D1B-6BB3123E7B8B1DE2 On 8/2/07, Eric Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope...just good competition that will just improve CF in the long run. Eric -Original Message- From: Vince Bonfanti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:17 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Larry Why move at all? I mean, the reason you would upgrade is to get features you dont currently have. Saying you will move to another engine which .. err.. last time I looked, didnt have those features, well, go for it! Here's a possible reason: suppose he needs to deploy on JBoss and JDK 1.6? If he's currently running CFMX7, that configuration isn't supported. This leaves him two options: BD 7.0 or CF8. If price is important to him and he doesn't need the new CF8 features that BD 7.0 doesn't support, then BD 7.0 is a valid choice. Or, here's another possibility: what if what he really needs is not just Java-to-.NET bridging (as provided in CF8), but full integration with ASP.NET such as the ability to do session sharing? In this case, BlueDragon.NET 7.0 is the only choice. There are many new features in CF8 that are already supported by BD 7.0 (or earlier releases). None of these features are in CFMX7, but can be found in both BD 7.0 and CF8: - .NET integration - image processing (CFIMAGE) - query caching with CFQUERYPARAM - CFC serialization (J2EE Session scope clustering) - duplicate() for CFCs - CFC interfaces - multi-threaded programming (CFTHREAD) - per-application mappings - CFZIP/CFZIPPARAM - onMissingTemplate event handler for Application.cfc - Windows Vista / IIS7 support - Mac OS X Intel support - JBoss support - JDK 1.5 and 1.6 support Yes, there are features in CF8 that aren't in BD 7.0; there are also features in BD 7.0 that aren't in CF8. The relevant questions are: which features do you want, and how much do you want to pay? My point is: it's not at all irrational or unreasonable for ATCC or others to choose BD 7.0 over CF8, if BD 7.0 provides a better combination of features and price to meet their needs. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285113 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 8/1/07, Andrew Scott wrote: I also have to say that Groovy and Grails are awesome as well... We use both here, and I am impressed. Heh. Yeah. I keep saying PHP and whatnot, but those are the ones that are making waves right now, aren't they? :-) ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285116 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Quite different from paying license fees tho, isn't that? In fact, that's kind of like what I'm talking about. On 8/1/07, James Holmes wrote: Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. On 8/2/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By this argument, no enterprises use Linux, Apache, etc.- or some strange logic like that. Does that sound correct? ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285117 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/31/07, Ben Forta wrote: I know this won't change how anyone feels about it, but just know that we do take the time to research this thoroughly - probably more so than many who Hey Ben, I'm sure there were meetings upon meetings- I'm talking more philosophical/future, looking at now vs. last quarter or whatnot. I think CF will be fine for a bit, but the times, they are a changing. That's it. I don't care, really, besides a leaning towards the future, or whatnot. Getting the newbs, keeping pace, all that good stuff. Keeping the language alive. I'm vested, obviously, after the years, but the patterns and whatnot is what I've been digging on- that's applicable in a bunch of places. This thread has gone on so long because the whole price bit has been a factor for CF since a long time ago. If it's not done right it can destroy the language, so no rush, but still... ** I think for the speed increase alone, it's good for the extra Gees, personally. Bravo on the whole deal, it's an excellent piece of SW, she is. My compliments to the chefs. ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285115 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 8/1/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite different from paying license fees tho, isn't that? In fact, that's kind of like what I'm talking about. On 8/1/07, James Holmes wrote: Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. I don't remember pricing up RHEL under maintenance but here's something I did look at: JBoss support / maintenance can very quickly reach $100k / year for even a moderate server farm (for the app server, Hibernate, clustering etc - all of which JBoss prices separately). Comparable with annual support for WebLogic (or WebSphere no doubt - but I only did a direct comparison of JBoss and WebLogic). The difference in costs between WebLogic and JBoss came down the initial license fee (about $400k for the setup I was evaluating). ColdFusion 8 Enterprise would be $120k in the context of that (a 32 CPU farm) which actually makes CF8 cheap compared to JBoss (assuming you actually pay the support fees) and very cheap compared to WebLogic. Just a price point for a relatively small enterprise project. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285125 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
You could throw in $799 per server per year for a SLES standard subscription: http://www.novell.com/products/server/howtobuy.html On 8/2/07, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/1/07, Dinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite different from paying license fees tho, isn't that? In fact, that's kind of like what I'm talking about. On 8/1/07, James Holmes wrote: Well, sort of. Enterprises often use SLES, RHEL; versions of Linux that are not free. I don't remember pricing up RHEL under maintenance but here's something I did look at: JBoss support / maintenance can very quickly reach $100k / year for even a moderate server farm (for the app server, Hibernate, clustering etc - all of which JBoss prices separately). Comparable with annual support for WebLogic (or WebSphere no doubt - but I only did a direct comparison of JBoss and WebLogic). The difference in costs between WebLogic and JBoss came down the initial license fee (about $400k for the setup I was evaluating). ColdFusion 8 Enterprise would be $120k in the context of that (a 32 CPU farm) which actually makes CF8 cheap compared to JBoss (assuming you actually pay the support fees) and very cheap compared to WebLogic. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:285131 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Ok, my forth attempt to post this. Jeez, the list server was down for two attempts and then I got 2 bounces saying my message is over 100 lines. Hopefully this one will get through. This is in reply to Charles talking about needing CF Ent for the Oracle connectivity. You can use the Oracle j2ee drivers (that comes with Oracle) to work with CF standard. Just a little more work on your end, but it works fine. This is for Oracle 10g, it may be slightly different for other versions.. -Find the ojdbc14.jar driver on your oracle installation -Put that jar into your WEB-INF\lib -In coldfusion, create a new datasource and choose other as the driver -JDBC URL would be jdbc:oracle:thin:@ip:port:database -Driver Class oracle.jdbc.OracleDriver Now why does CF standard not just go ahead and do this for you. Well franky I don't know, but it really doesn't matter if you have the drivers anyway. It does confuse the hack out of people, which is bad. Wanted to make sure you knew this before you decided to jump ship :) John Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] 770.337.8363 www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284885 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Hi Dale, I have to agree that I have never had issues selling the benefits of CF and ROI, it's actually an easy sell. Exactly! :) Rey... ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284888 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
You can use the Oracle j2ee drivers (that comes with Oracle) to work with CF standard. Just a little more work on your end, but it works fine. This is for Oracle 10g, it may be slightly different for other versions.. -Find the ojdbc14.jar driver on your oracle installation -Put that jar into your WEB-INF\lib -In coldfusion, create a new datasource and choose other as the driver -JDBC URL would be jdbc:oracle:thin:@ip:port:database -Driver Class oracle.jdbc.OracleDriver Now why does CF standard not just go ahead and do this for you. Well franky I don't know, but it really doesn't matter if you have the drivers anyway. It does confuse the hack out of people, which is bad. Wanted to make sure you knew this before you decided to jump ship :) John Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] 770.337.8363 www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting -Original Message- From: Charles E. Heizer1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:57 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin So, I have to agree with Dale... Adobe has put a bullet in CF. For example, Standard Edition would be fine for me but I need Oracle access and now I need to pay twice that just to do supported Oracle connectivity. We are an enterprise and when I discussed this with management they came back and said we should just invest our time in ASP.NET. We can retrain our developers, and not worry about buying upgrades and we'll get new features as they come out. You know, I don't disagree with them. I just recently started playing with Visual Studio .Net, and it's far easier to write web services and create great web content. Adobe thanks for the memories, a user/developer since version 4.5. - Charles ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284882 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Mark Mandel wrote: Charles, Why not just use Standard, and use the free JDBC drivers you can download from Oracle themselves, and just make an 'other' connection? What's the problem with that? No ref_cursor support. That's only provided with the enterprise drivers built in to CF. Just to name one ;). Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX www.geodesicgrafx.com/blog ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284881 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Larry Why move at all? I mean, the reason you would upgrade is to get features you dont currently have. Saying you will move to another engine which .. err.. last time I looked, didnt have those features, well, go for it! Some of these arguments are really dumb. Dont upgrade if you cant afford it. There will be plenty of hosts out there providing CF8 hosting very shortly, use those if you need to or make it part of your fee for a project. We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. These discussions simply remind me of the user blackmail that we get with CFEclipse: If you dont add this feature, we are moving to homesite! MD ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284901 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Unless the Oracle supplied driver has changed recently, some things don't work the same as the DataDirect CF Oracle driver, like stored procs returning results from ref cursors and BLOBS. If it has changed, great. On 7/31/07, Mark Mandel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles, Why not just use Standard, and use the free JDBC drivers you can download from Oracle themselves, and just make an 'other' connection? What's the problem with that? I hate to say this, I have to wonder - if your business is complaining about paying ~10K for their server software, (or less), then you probably struggle to qualify for the 'enterprise' target that ColdFusion really is targeted for. (and most of us aren't, we're just paying for upgrades). Maybe I'm too far removed from the bean counters (and that is quite possible), but I actually am quite confused by all of this noise. I'm actually sitting back and looking at all the new features that were put in Standard, which is meant for people who aren't enterprise, and going 'cool! loads of new stuff, without a price hike... nice work for targeting those that aren't enterprise, and essentially giving them more for less cost in a product'. Mark On 7/31/07, Charles E. Heizer1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, I have to agree with Dale... Adobe has put a bullet in CF. For example, Standard Edition would be fine for me but I need Oracle access and now I need to pay twice that just to do supported Oracle connectivity. We are an enterprise and when I discussed this with management they came back and said we should just invest our time in ASP.NET. We can retrain our developers, and not worry about buying upgrades and we'll get new features as they come out. You know, I don't disagree with them. I just recently started playing with Visual Studio .Net, and it's far easier to write web services and create great web content. Adobe thanks for the memories, a user/developer since version 4.5. - Charles On 7/30/07 5:27 AM, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to echo what Sean said...I looked at CF8 and thought, wow finally a product that I would really label Enterprise. Not to say CF7 wasn't Enterprise, it had some great features and was a great release, but I think the monitoring and some of the Administration changes helped make it really enterprise friendly. Thats not mentioning the performance enhancements, exchange integration (which currently means nothing to Lotus Shops bleh), and whole suite of ajax tools that really make CF shine as a UI web layer for large Java apps. You have to look at this product and realize enterprise is worthless to you unless you really need super scalability. Standard has it all, albeit limited/throttled. Sure cfthread and exchange integration and PDF (?) are throttled but they are available and until you have 100+ (dare I say probably more) concurrent users using the exact same functionality Enterprise means very little. Its like a computer, my Mom doesn't need a dual core 64bit AMD with 2gig of ram and 256mb dedicate graphics card running iSCSI to send me pictures and read email (unless she is running Vista then she might ;) ). Gone are the days where you have to have enterprise to play with those nifty event gateways. If enterprise looks to expensive to you then you probably don't need it, or you need to look at some other Enterprise software costs and revisit in 15 minutes. Hell I say that single move by Adobe to offer a more complete Standard Edition will open more doors for ColdFusion than any single feature. I say Bravo! Adam Haskell On 7/30/07, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/29/07, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for your post on CF 8 being a dead product because of the price increase, note that the increase if for Enterprise. How many people here (other than me) actually use or need enterprise. Me! To be honest, the difference between $3,000/CPU and $3,750/CPU is pretty negligible in an enterprise world. For the - new-in-8 - (multi-)server monitoring and RDS/Admin user management features, unlimited CFTHREAD and unlimited MS Exchange integration, that extra $750/CPU is well worth it (as well as the general reasons Enterprise is worth paying more for: unlimited event gateways, PDF/document services, reporting etc). The key thing everyone should be rejoicing about is that Standard Edition includes: event gateways, pdf/document services, cfthread, MS Exchange integration, reporting, presentation generation. There would be a lot of complaints if these were Enterprise only features. There were plenty of complaints around CFMX 7 because event gateways were Enterprise-only! -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Go write your own integration with Exchange and evaluate those man hours ... On 31/07/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to agree that I have never had issues selling the benefits of CF and ROI, it's actually an easy sell. I just purely don't understand the price hike, in a market where software is becoming less expensive and also free, a 25% increase is unjustified unless there is some new feature that they have included that requires them to licence in third party products. Why this has added a Nail to the Coffin is because they have hurt the enterprise market, if I want to develop a large enterprise scale application, which requires multiple servers etc, etc. ColdFusion is simply too expensive and I will use something else. Instead of buying Enterprise I will now (have already) buy Standard. PS: If someone would like to explain to me the price difference between download and boxed, i'd love to hear that story also. In Australia here an Enterprise box is only $1,104, it must be really shiny. Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Rey Bango [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 31 July 2007 4:46 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin I completely disagree with this statement Andy. Part of being a consultant is selling your solution and if a person can't effectively do that, then they shouldn't be in the consulting business at all. What I've seen over the time I've been involved with ColdFusion is less people that are interested or willing to sell a solution as opposed to making their $30-50/hr as a contractor. If thats what person wants to do, then they might be better of choosing a tool like PHP or .Net. But in my experience, selling customers on ColdFusion, even when I've had to explain the ROI, has not been an issue. I really believe people underestimate the intelligence of prospects and thats just not good business. Rey... Andy Matthews wrote: Rick... You make compelling arguments. But IMO, if you have to explain the ROI to someone, then you've already lost the battle ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284899 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/30/07, Mark Mandel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles, Why not just use Standard, and use the free JDBC drivers you can download from Oracle themselves, and just make an 'other' connection? Or, you can buy the DataDirect Oracle driver yourself: http://www.programmers.com/ppi_us/Product.aspx?sku=DB1%20017X Of course, once you see what it costs retail, you may rethink CF Enterprise being expensive ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284905 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284906 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/30/07, Neil Middleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small point to bear in mind here, which always pops into my head when I hear this argument. Let's say I am on $50/hr like you say, therefore for myself to pay for CF8 Ent, I'm looking at working at least 150 hours before it's paid for. OK, I may be 10% more productive than PHP, but if I were using CF then I would only save 208 hours per year over PHP (150 are spent paying for the license as well). So, at the end of my year, I'm 58 profit hours up. i.e $2900. If I had more than one server (say one dev, one test), I'd be out of pocket to the tune of $4600. It's not such a massive amount after all. ~~~ Neil You think about this all wrong, you should be charging your clients for hosting, then it's not out of pocket at all. you might take a slight larger hit for upgrading but in the end your clients flip the bill for hosting their websites with you. You would never need to work a minute to make up for the price of coldfusion. Casey ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284909 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
sarcasm That's true. Look how many people complain about todays cars costing more then the model-t. /sarcasm Expecting new features without a price increase is not an intelligent way of doing business. If you don't like the increase (and you NEED enterprise), then either work out a solution so you don't need it or go install something else and learn that. Dale Fraser wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284920 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Unless the Oracle supplied driver has changed recently, some things don't work the same as the DataDirect CF Oracle driver, like stored procs returning results from ref cursors and BLOBS. If it has changed, great. So, then, if you need Enterprise features, you buy Enterprise. Or, you can just go buy DataDirect Connect for JDBC yourself, and pay ~$5K. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284911 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. No one said anything about being happy. You should, however, expect to pay more because there are new features, just like you do with every other product in existence. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I think you're reading a whole lot into nothing. Personally, I don't think the pricing is a problem. If I did, then I'd agree with you. Either it's worth the price to you, or it isn't. I do notice it's a whole lot cheaper than Oracle or SQL Server database servers. These problems, like any other market issues, will be decided by the market. I suspect that the market of enterprise buyers will not be put off by the price increase of CF Enterprise. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284915 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
The bottom line is that if the extra $1500 breaks you and stops you from buying CF8 Enterprise, you were not a target customer for CF8 Enterprise. The vast majority of customers buying the Enterprise version will turn around and buy CF8 Enterprise because $1500 is nothing in an IT budget. For people who can't afford $7500, there is the Standard version. On 7/31/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284938 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Dale, Most people know me as being VERY vocal when I don't like something. Quite honestly, I don't see an issue with a price increase in the Enterprise edition. Its targeted to a different level of customer who won't balk at that price. Having worked with companies at that level, I know for fact that $7k is peanuts to them. Now, if standard would've had a substantial price increase then I'd be more inclined to gripe about it. So I don't believe anyone is hiding in a hole. They might just be looking at this from a different perspective than you. Rey... Dale Fraser wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284936 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I tend to be skeptical of earth-shattering predictions coming from someone who can't spell 'coffin'. :) -Original Message- From: Brian Kotek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin I don't get this at all. People are flipping out about Enterprise going up in cost. How many people run Enterprise?! The standard version stays the same and gets a huge bump in features. The people complaining are talking like they raised the price of both versions. CF standard is a STEAL at $1299, especially with what they have added. To people who need extremely high performance (server monitoring, unlimited cfthread, etc.), multiple instances, gov't approved encryption, and all the rest, $7,500 is nothing for an enterprise application server that does everything CF does as easily as CF does it. For goodness sake people, take a deep breath and stop freaking out. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284910 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/30/07, Neil Middleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small point to bear in mind here, which always pops into my head when I hear this argument. Let's say I am on $50/hr like you say, therefore for myself to pay for CF8 Ent, I'm looking at working at least 150 hours before it's paid for. OK, I may be 10% more productive than PHP, but if I were using CF then I would only save 208 hours per year over PHP (150 are spent paying for the license as well). So, at the end of my year, I'm 58 profit hours up. i.e $2900. If I had more than one server (say one dev, one test), I'd be out of pocket to the tune of $4600. It's not such a massive amount after all. This also assumes that you're the only developer, you're only taking one year into consideration, and you're assuming that you get no other benefits from using coldfusion that you might have to pay extra for with PHP - or spend a LOT more time implementing - over and above the 10% productivity difference. For example, PDF generation, enterprise reporting, verity collections. Rick ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284927 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. These discussions simply remind me of the user blackmail that we get with CFEclipse: If you dont add this feature, we are moving to homesite! I like it when irrational people move away from CF. It makes the rest of us more-valuable. M!ke ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284922 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Can you say upgrade pricing ~Terry -Original Message- From: Dale Fraser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:13 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284928 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Actually, Ben spoke a little about the value add in the latest podcast at coldfusionweekly.com, albeit in an indirect manner. Aside from the fact that CF hasn't had a price increase since CF5, or that this is probably the largest new-feature release in the history of the product, or the fact that no other server gives you this much pertinent development ROI out of the box, there is also the point that the biggest un-marked feature is a major upgrade in the speed and performance of the server. Why is this important? Because it lowers your overhead costs in other areas, like additional equipment and licensing to support it. Adobe has to pay developers, marketing staff, advertising costs, etc. If CF were an open source project it might be different, but I don't think you'd see the advancements to the product like you have throughout CF history. If you care to argue that point then maybe you'd like to ask Mark Drew how much help he gets writing features into CFEclipse, or the guys at the Smith Project about how much help outside developers are giving them? Mark is a wonderful freak of nature, who must code in his sleep to keep up with the demands of this community, and the folks at the Smith project will still be years before they fully catch up to what CF 7 can do, much less 8. I agree with Rey. If you're having that much trouble convincing a potential client of the value of developing on CF then they are probably more trouble than they are worth. Small projects won't warrant Enterprise Edition. Large projects will see the ROI to make the purchase, especially if you show them the facts and they have enough sense to run the numbers. Hosting providers are popping up left and right to accommodate, and Adobe's pricing plan for them, coupled with their licensing structure on VPS's and procs, will make CF an extremely viable option compared to the past. BTW, I've written the Exchange connector code in ASP before. Ben's little 45 line sample app, from his UG demos, would take ASP scripting three times the length of my arm. That's ROI. Please, give it a rest. If you're so upset about it then move on to the next big thing, and let the rest of us enjoy what the future has to give us. Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Dale Fraser wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade to ColdFusion 8 and integrate with Adobe Flex http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284916 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/31/07, Doug Bezona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just use Standard, and use the free JDBC drivers you can download from Oracle themselves, and just make an 'other' connection? Or, you can buy the DataDirect Oracle driver yourself: http://www.programmers.com/ppi_us/Product.aspx?sku=DB1%20017X Of course, once you see what it costs retail, you may rethink CF Enterprise being expensive No doubt about that! DB2 drivers are REALLY REALLY expensive. IBM wanted to charge us like $30k for DB2/Connect to give us the JDBC drivers direct from IBM. If you use free drivers, you get no support from Adobe. Or anyone. At least with CF Enterprise using the included drivers, you get support from Adobe if you need it. Rick ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284925 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/30/07, John Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, my forth attempt to post this. Jeez, the list server was down for two attempts and then I got 2 bounces saying my message is over 100 lines. No, we got all four of your messages. The warning about being over 100 lines is just a warning - because you didn't trim quotes in your reply. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284931 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/31/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. I think you're completely missing the point: there are many companies out there that view CFMX 7 as too cheap at $3k/CPU. They don't think it is serious software so they won't buy it. The increased price actually helps sell to those enterprise companies. And the (frankly) small price hike won't put other enterprises off. If you think enterprise is too expensive, you simply aren't an enterprise company! Hardly any enterprise software costs less than $6k/CPU. Go look at WebLogic and WebSphere (or almost anything from IBM!). Go look at Oracle. Someone pointed at the DataDirect drivers which cost $4k retail - included in CF Enterprise. That makes no sense what so ever. It makes perfect sense - if you understand the enterprise market. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. No, this thread has 60+ responses already so folks are certainly coming out and saying what they think - and they're mostly not on your side in this discussion because they understand the market better than you do. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284932 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Agreed - Enterprise was our first choice. CF cost nothing compared to the SPARC servers on which we run it, and don't even ask what Oracle (and its SPARC hardware) costs. On 7/31/07, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unless the Oracle supplied driver has changed recently, some things don't work the same as the DataDirect CF Oracle driver, like stored procs returning results from ref cursors and BLOBS. If it has changed, great. So, then, if you need Enterprise features, you buy Enterprise. Or, you can just go buy DataDirect Connect for JDBC yourself, and pay ~$5K. -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284926 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
working w/the government here, i hear a lot of really dumb ideas. Where are my tax dollars going. Thanks, CC This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. Paul Hastings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/30/2007 08:36 PM Please respond to cf-talk@houseoffusion.com To CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com cc Subject Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Charles E. Heizer1 wrote: to pay twice that just to do supported Oracle connectivity. We are an enterprise and when I discussed this with management they came back and said we should just invest our time in ASP.NET. We can retrain our developers, and not worry about buying upgrades and we'll get new features as they come out. your enterprise shop will pay to re-train developers but not an extra $2000 for their app server? geez, that's the stupidest thing i've heard in a long while and working w/the government here, i hear a lot of really dumb ideas. ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284949 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Let me be absolutely clear on something Dale. 1) I have nothing to do with the prices Adobe charge. Last time I checked, I don't work for Adobe. If Adobe wants to hire me, they can give me a call, but until then, I don't see how you can put this on me. What the hell did I do? 2) I've been spending my time blogging about features. I figure my readers care more about that. I haven't been avoiding pricing. I've just been focused on what interests ME and what I assume interests my readers. If you want to know what I think about the prices, then ask. But to act like I'm some kind of conspiracy with Adobe to make people not notice the prices is flat out wrong. 3) I have NEVER refrained from speaking my mind about CF. Now I'll be honest and say I've rarely complained. That isn't to say I haven't. Shoot, I bad mouth CFLOGON all the time, and I freely share WHY it bugs me. I hope folks forgive me for my language above but I'm a bit pissed as to how I'm being dragged into this. On 7/31/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| ColdFusion is delivering applications solutions at at top companies around the world in government. Find out how and where now http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=finderproductID=1522loc=en_us Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284939 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
That made my day. LOL Thanks Bill -Original Message- From: Will Tomlinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 July 2007 19:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin That sure sounds cool. What is it? www.justfuckinggoogleit.com LMAO!!! ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284953 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/31/07, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. Now *THAT* is perfectly reasonable. As long as you keep in mind that you're giving up a lot of features that Adobe Coldfusion offers that Bluedragon does not currently offer, like flash remoting, event gateways, cfreport, flash forms, cfexchange, cfpresentation, Rick ~| Get involved in the latest ColdFusion discussions, product development sharing, and articles on the Adobe Labs wiki. http://labs/adobe.com/wiki/index.php/ColdFusion_8 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284930 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
And I've not weighed in because frankly, there is little for me to add. Like all of you, I have opinions about pricing, but I am not the final decision maker - I do voice my opinions, and sometimes they align with those of the wider CF team and sometimes not, but once a decision is made I have to live with it. If you are expecting me to denounce a product decision in public (and no, I am not saying that I would denounce this one) then think again, that would be more than inappropriate. And to be very fair, I was asked many times about possible pricing increases over the past 1/2 year, including at many of the usergroups we visited. And my answer every time was that A) we've not raised the price in a while, there has been pressure to do so, and so it was a possibility, B) *if* there would be price increases we would try to limit the users impacted by it, C) if there would be a price increase then it would be an incremental one, and the price would not increase by several times, D) buy subscriptions now and you'll not have to deal with this if the price does in fact increase. And I think that my responses were indeed correct. And finally, we've been debating price increases for several versions already. And with each edition we debated the issue for a long time and decided to postpone any increase. Now, after 5 years or so, we have indeed increased the price of Enterprise only, while simultaneously making Standard a more compelling option for even more users. But, others have explained this already. Beyond this I have nothing else to say on the topic, at this point I am too busy with features and customers. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:43 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin Let me be absolutely clear on something Dale. 1) I have nothing to do with the prices Adobe charge. Last time I checked, I don't work for Adobe. If Adobe wants to hire me, they can give me a call, but until then, I don't see how you can put this on me. What the hell did I do? 2) I've been spending my time blogging about features. I figure my readers care more about that. I haven't been avoiding pricing. I've just been focused on what interests ME and what I assume interests my readers. If you want to know what I think about the prices, then ask. But to act like I'm some kind of conspiracy with Adobe to make people not notice the prices is flat out wrong. 3) I have NEVER refrained from speaking my mind about CF. Now I'll be honest and say I've rarely complained. That isn't to say I haven't. Shoot, I bad mouth CFLOGON all the time, and I freely share WHY it bugs me. I hope folks forgive me for my language above but I'm a bit pissed as to how I'm being dragged into this. On 7/31/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. That makes no sense what so ever. If there were no new features, then you wouldn't need a new version. It's the quantity and quality of new features that makes people decide if they are even going to upgrade. The fact that it's an upgrade means they get your money again, so there is no need to get your money again + a premium for new features. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I note that Ben Ray have had nothing to say about the increased pricing, in fact they just kinda did a soft release and hope that it would sweep under the carpet, and no one would notice. Very Poor! Regards Dale Fraser http://dalefraser.blogspot.com ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284948 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
The .Net development not only creates the web service but it also creates WSDL and a Test page to test the web service. Which is really slick compared to what CF produces. I've also found the web service code generated by CF does not include the proper header info, which has caused some application developers a headache consuming some of the web services. On 7/30/07 6:06 PM, James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/31/07, Charles E. Heizer1 wrote: I just recently started playing with Visual Studio .Net, and it's far easier to write web services and create great web content. How is the .NET code for a webservice easier than writing access=remote? -- mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284954 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/30/07, Larry Lyons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We use it at here at ATCC. But given this price increase we'll probably be moving over to Blue Dragon. Which would leave you without many of the real enterprise features: MS Exchange Integration, SMS/IM/JMS event gateways, high-performance report generation, high-performance PDF processing and high-performance email service, integrated server monitoring and self-healing, multi-user security for administrator and RDS. I'd be curious to know what Enterprise Edition features you currently use? Just the multi-server install setup perhaps? -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284929 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Thanks, I look at it from a support contract side as well, I'm not sure but I would have to go back and check to make sure the Oracle JDBC driver is a Adobe supported model in the Standard edition when buying the support agreement. Trust me, I really don't want to jump ship but when people keep whispering PHP/ASP etc. to management, and the product cost is, well free. It makes it a really hard sell. We have also had,in the past a really hard time finding good quality CF developers. Which management also takes as a sign that CF is not worth the effort. Charles On 7/30/07 3:53 PM, John Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can use the Oracle j2ee drivers (that comes with Oracle) to work with CF standard. Just a little more work on your end, but it works fine. This is for Oracle 10g, it may be slightly different for other versions.. -Find the ojdbc14.jar driver on your oracle installation -Put that jar into your WEB-INF\lib -In coldfusion, create a new datasource and choose other as the driver -JDBC URL would be jdbc:oracle:thin:@ip:port:database -Driver Class oracle.jdbc.OracleDriver Now why does CF standard not just go ahead and do this for you. Well franky I don't know, but it really doesn't matter if you have the drivers anyway. It does confuse the hack out of people, which is bad. Wanted to make sure you knew this before you decided to jump ship :) John [EMAIL PROTECTED] 770.337.8363 http://www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting -Original Message- From: Charles E. Heizer1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:57 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin So, I have to agree with Dale... Adobe has put a bullet in CF. For example, Standard Edition would be fine for me but I need Oracle access and now I need to pay twice that just to do supported Oracle connectivity. We are an enterprise and when I discussed this with management they came back and said we should just invest our time in ASP.NET. We can retrain our developers, and not worry about buying upgrades and we'll get new features as they come out. You know, I don't disagree with them. I just recently started playing with Visual Studio .Net, and it's far easier to write web services and create great web content. Adobe thanks for the memories, a user/developer since version 4.5. - Charles On 7/30/07 5:27 AM, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to echo what Sean said...I looked at CF8 and thought, wow finally a product that I would really label Enterprise. Not to say CF7 wasn't Enterprise, it had some great features and was a great release, but I think the monitoring and some of the Administration changes helped make it really enterprise friendly. Thats not mentioning the performance enhancements, exchange integration (which currently means nothing to Lotus Shops bleh), and whole suite of ajax tools that really make CF shine as a UI web layer for large Java apps. You have to look at this product and realize enterprise is worthless to you unless you really need super scalability. Standard has it all, albeit limited/throttled. Sure cfthread and exchange integration and PDF (?) are throttled but they are available and until you have 100+ (dare I say probably more) concurrent users using the exact same functionality Enterprise means very little. Its like a computer, my Mom doesn't need a dual core 64bit AMD with 2gig of ram and 256mb dedicate graphics card running iSCSI to send me pictures and read email (unless she is running Vista then she might ;) ). Gone are the days where you have to have enterprise to play with those nifty event gateways. If enterprise looks to expensive to you then you probably don't need it, or you need to look at some other Enterprise software costs and revisit in 15 minutes. Hell I say that single move by Adobe to offer a more complete Standard Edition will open more doors for ColdFusion than any single feature. I say Bravo! Adam Haskell On 7/30/07, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/29/07, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for your post on CF 8 being a dead product because of the price increase, note that the increase if for Enterprise. How many people here (other than me) actually use or need enterprise. Me! To be honest, the difference between $3,000/CPU and $3,750/CPU is pretty negligible in an enterprise world. For the - new-in-8 - (multi-)server monitoring and RDS/Admin user management features, unlimited CFTHREAD and unlimited MS Exchange integration, that extra $750/CPU is well worth it (as well as the general reasons Enterprise is worth paying more for: unlimited event gateways, PDF/document services, reporting etc). The key thing everyone should be rejoicing about is that Standard Edition includes: event gateways, pdf/document services, cfthread, MS Exchange integration, reporting, presentation generation
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I would love to see the ROI calculation on this decision: x amount for classes x amount for time to attend the classes (as an aside, learn C# instead of vb.net... you will thank me later) x time to actually get proficient at .NET x copies of Visual Studio x time to convert existing CF code Seems you could buy a lot of copies of CF Enterprise with that. Now, I'm pretty pragmatic about language selection - CF is not the only, or always the best, choice, but this type of knee-jerk reaction to a minor price hike strikes me as a more than a bit over the top. On 7/31/07, Robert Harrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. All I can say is, Thanks Adobe. I just got my company to pay for a series of clases for .net and vb.net. Worked out OK for me. Don't know if it will work out for Adobe when we start dumping CF. Robert B. Harrison Director of Interactive services Austin Williams 125 Kennedy Drive, Suite 100 Hauppauge NY 11788 T : 631.231.6600 Ext. 119 F : 631.434.7022 www.austin-williams.com Great advertising can't be either/or... It must be . No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284963 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
I know I am going to regret saying this, but what the heck ... Regardless of how anyone feels about the price change, just know that this decision was NOT made in a vacuum. In fact, the team polled lots of ColdFusion customers to ask them their opinion on this. And the general feedback, even from those who would rather we not charge more, was that the price change was fair and not inappropriate. I know this won't change how anyone feels about it, but just know that we do take the time to research this thoroughly - probably more so than many who are making definitive statements on the subject. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin On 7/31/07, Dale Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. I think you're completely missing the point: there are many companies out there that view CFMX 7 as too cheap at $3k/CPU. They don't think it is serious software so they won't buy it. The increased price actually helps sell to those enterprise companies. And the (frankly) small price hike won't put other enterprises off. If you think enterprise is too expensive, you simply aren't an enterprise company! Hardly any enterprise software costs less than $6k/CPU. Go look at WebLogic and WebSphere (or almost anything from IBM!). Go look at Oracle. Someone pointed at the DataDirect drivers which cost $4k retail - included in CF Enterprise. That makes no sense what so ever. It makes perfect sense - if you understand the enterprise market. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. No, this thread has 60+ responses already so folks are certainly coming out and saying what they think - and they're mostly not on your side in this discussion because they understand the market better than you do. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284968 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Dale, I did a quick search for software pricing to put the CF8 pricing in some perspective.. Windows 2003 Enterprise 3,443 Windows 2003 Standard 958 Oracle 10g Enterprise 40,000 Oracle 10g Standard 4,995 Sql Server Enterprise 13,699 Sql Server Standard 1,754 JBoss Enterprise4,500 Now as far as software goes, CF8 is reasonably priced. If you look at just J2ee servers or Web app servers, yea CF8 Ent is very high. Yes, this will hurt their sales. It's simply a point for you to determine if the features are worth it for you or not. I'm sure BlueDragon and the others will incorporate a lot of those same features down the road just like Adobe adopted cfthread from BlueDragon. So no biggie, wait 6 months.. Another point for the Adobe people, I remember when the standard/enterprise started and there was a lot complaining back then. With the price gap getting wider, maybe it's time for a third version, let's call it a Business version. That provides some of the least costly new features and provides a bridge (or stepping stone) from standard to enterprise. I think that would solve a lot of issues with this and take almost nothing for Adobe to do. John Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] 770.337.8363 www.FusionLink.com - ColdFusion and Flex hosting Now offering ColdFusion 8 Enterprise hosting FREE Subversion hosting ~| Check out the new features and enhancements in the latest product release - download the What's New PDF now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284941 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
On 7/31/07, Raymond Camden wrote: I hope folks forgive me for my language above but I'm a bit pissed as to how I'm being dragged into this. Dudes, if this is Ray pissed, I'm like, what's enraged look like? :-) You're a good man, Ray. Thanks for your contributions, y wotnot. ~| ColdFusion 8 - Build next generation apps today, with easy PDF and Ajax features - download now http://download.macromedia.com/pub/labs/coldfusion/cf8_beta_whatsnew_052907.pdf Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284966 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
any idea when those of us with the upgrade subscription thingie can expect our copies to show up? thanks tony :) On 7/31/07, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the deal with people who think that you should be happy to pay more because there are new features. No one said anything about being happy. You should, however, expect to pay more because there are new features, just like you do with every other product in existence. If all the ColdFusion die hard's who go hide in a hole and don't speak up when something like this stupid pricing happens then these problems are never going to get addressed. People are too scared to say what they think and risk tainting their perfect CF image. I think you're reading a whole lot into nothing. Personally, I don't think the pricing is a problem. If I did, then I'd agree with you. Either it's worth the price to you, or it isn't. I do notice it's a whole lot cheaper than Oracle or SQL Server database servers. These problems, like any other market issues, will be decided by the market. I suspect that the market of enterprise buyers will not be put off by the price increase of CF Enterprise. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284956 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
Its sad to see any developer give up on CF but it sounds that by you saying... I just want to get Adobe to drop the price. It's a hard sell to some clients and we've lost some opportunities because of it. I'll always continue to use CF as my mainstay, but also learning .net is not a bad thing... And whenever we have lost a site it's always been to .net technology. For what it's worth I've always been, and still am a CF advocate. But the reality is it's a business market and it's doesn't hurt to have alternative options to give your clients. Robert B. Harrison Director of Interactive services Austin Williams 125 Kennedy Drive, Suite 100 Hauppauge NY 11788 T : 631.231.6600 Ext. 119 F : 631.434.7022 www.austin-williams.com Great advertising can't be either/or... It must be . No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: 7/30/2007 5:02 PM ~| Enterprise web applications, build robust, secure scalable apps today - Try it now ColdFusion Today ColdFusion 8 beta - Build next generation apps Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284964 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin
At my group in Motorola we have 5 CF enterprise licenses. We don't pay for upgrades, instead we pay ~1500 per license in maintenance and it lasts for 2 years. And yes, $7,500 is nothing to an enterprise company. On 7/31/07, Billy Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tend to be skeptical of earth-shattering predictions coming from someone who can't spell 'coffin'. :) -Original Message- From: Brian Kotek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Adobe Nails ColdFusion Cofin I don't get this at all. People are flipping out about Enterprise going up in cost. How many people run Enterprise?! The standard version stays the same and gets a huge bump in features. The people complaining are talking like they raised the price of both versions. CF standard is a STEAL at $1299, especially with what they have added. To people who need extremely high performance (server monitoring, unlimited cfthread, etc.), multiple instances, gov't approved encryption, and all the rest, $7,500 is nothing for an enterprise application server that does everything CF does as easily as CF does it. For goodness sake people, take a deep breath and stop freaking out. ~| Download the latest ColdFusion 8 utilities including Report Builder, plug-ins for Eclipse and Dreamweaver updates. http;//www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs%5adobecf8%5Fbeta Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:284944 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
