[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Rae Buerckner]

Ooops... yes late 97 :)



On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Rae Buerckner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> :) You're a smart cookie Barry, yep that's the idea, because in all
> reality the entire Adobe Enterprise Suite should be targeted at Fed Gov.
> There's a whole of Government push from AGIMO for Gov to go SOA.
>
> And the push out of AGIMO is the LiveCycle Enterprise Suite ES, they just
> forgot to add ColdFusion, so I'm adding it for them :)
>
> R
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, barry.b <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > Whilst there may not be the positions available in Canberra at the
> > moment,
> > > there very soon will be.  You should see a big demand for CF
> > developers here
> > > in the next 6-12 months.
> >
> > and this is why you've put the hard yards in getting the CFUG going in
> > the ACT? (congrats, BTW)
> >
> > to create a support infrastructure and professional development "hub"
> > for the expected numbers?
> >
> > smart move. this is the "guild" model I harp on about**
> >  - a center for professional development
> >  - quality control (in this case: discourse into best practices)
> >  - support for a career path from juniors to seniors.
> >  - some infulence of supply and demand of workers
> >  - some influence on remuneration
> >
> > ** based on the professional guilds of Medieval Europe: stonemasons,
> > blacksmiths, bowyers, thatchers, etc.
> >
> > > >
> >
>

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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Rae Buerckner]

:) You're a smart cookie Barry, yep that's the idea, because in all reality
the entire Adobe Enterprise Suite should be targeted at Fed Gov.  There's a
whole of Government push from AGIMO for Gov to go SOA.

And the push out of AGIMO is the LiveCycle Enterprise Suite ES, they just
forgot to add ColdFusion, so I'm adding it for them :)

R

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM, barry.b <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> > Whilst there may not be the positions available in Canberra at the
> moment,
> > there very soon will be.  You should see a big demand for CF developers
> here
> > in the next 6-12 months.
>
> and this is why you've put the hard yards in getting the CFUG going in
> the ACT? (congrats, BTW)
>
> to create a support infrastructure and professional development "hub"
> for the expected numbers?
>
> smart move. this is the "guild" model I harp on about**
>  - a center for professional development
>  - quality control (in this case: discourse into best practices)
>  - support for a career path from juniors to seniors.
>  - some infulence of supply and demand of workers
>  - some influence on remuneration
>
> ** based on the professional guilds of Medieval Europe: stonemasons,
> blacksmiths, bowyers, thatchers, etc.
>
> >
>

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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Eliseo]

> Whilst there may not be the positions available in Canberra at the moment,
> there very soon will be.  You should see a big demand for CF developers here
> in the next 6-12 months.

Rae, firstly let me commend you on your elite status... 11 years of
experience in CF... far higher than mine... You must have started on
ColdFusion around 1997 or something by the sound of it, when it only
just came about, right?

And good news for CF developers over in tha tACT, it sounds like a
great opportunity, but it won't be of much help to Sydney-siders such
as myself, especially if they're looking now! ;)

At any rate, I'm sure that ACT's boom may give way to more roles in
the Sydney area eventually... but meantime, I'll have to continue
looking... it seems that the role I went to on Tuesday didn't gel as
they felt I wasn't expressive enough or passionate enough about the
work I do...

A real shame... their loss, someone else's gain I guess!

~ Eliseo
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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[barry.b]

> Whilst there may not be the positions available in Canberra at the moment,
> there very soon will be.  You should see a big demand for CF developers here
> in the next 6-12 months.

and this is why you've put the hard yards in getting the CFUG going in
the ACT? (congrats, BTW)

to create a support infrastructure and professional development "hub"
for the expected numbers?

smart move. this is the "guild" model I harp on about**
 - a center for professional development
 - quality control (in this case: discourse into best practices)
 - support for a career path from juniors to seniors.
 - some infulence of supply and demand of workers
 - some influence on remuneration

** based on the professional guilds of Medieval Europe: stonemasons,
blacksmiths, bowyers, thatchers, etc.

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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Rae Buerckner]

Hi Kai,

In Canberra the market is slightly more boyant, particularly for someone
like me with 11 years experience in CF and a reputation that generates
business.

My last job was a 90k package, and my current one is well over 100k with all
the lurks and perks as well.

Having said that, my experience lends itself more to the Adobe Enterprise
Suite than just straight CF.

Whilst there may not be the positions available in Canberra at the moment,
there very soon will be.  You should see a big demand for CF developers here
in the next 6-12 months.

Cheers,

Rae

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Kai Koenig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Eliseo,
>
> >That's nonsense... there's CF Developers around providing the company
> >wanting to do the hiring has enough $$ to persuade someone to come on
> >board...
>
> Oh, let's start a new 100+ post discussion on the topic of salaries
> paid by CF development shops - I find that really interesting,
> particularly because everyone here in NZ is talking about the big
> brain-drain, people leaving the country for overseas work, huge
> skills shortage etc, and also because I'm running a company myself
> for a while now.
>
> Speaking from a New Zealand point of view - it's not much of a surprise,
> with for instance seeing advertisement on seek where "international media"
> companies up in Auckland (which is shockingly expensive to live at - even
> with European or US costs of living in mind) are willing to pay 50-65k NZ$
> annual salary for an experienced CF/Flex developer. Seriously - you get
> what you ask for.
>
> Paying someone experienced, who might be even motivated enough to continue
> educating him/herself and is maybe even involved in whatever sort of
> community
> activities (even if it's "just" reading a mailing list), such a salary
> leads to fluctuation, staff turnover, staff feeling not valued etc. I'm
> not
> saying that it all comes down to salary, certainly not. But companies
> can't
> expect to get the super-rockstar developers for such a salary.
>
> I once read an article written by a well-known business consultant here
> in NZ and he was saying it wasn't worth it to pay people higher than
> average
> salaries, it wasn't worth it to give them an annual salary increase
> exceeding
> CPI etc and that his recommendation would be to always get juniors in,
> train them up and then - even if they leave after one year - just get
> another junior in to replace the person. Seriously - I think it's
> absolutely the wrong approach - but that's me. Yes, a company with a
> certain
> size would need a certain percentage of junior developers to work more
> efficiently and to ensure there are new people coming up.
>
> Any opinions - really interested in hearing other people's thoughts!
>
> Please don't flame if you disagree :)
>
> Cheers
> Kai
>
>
>
> 
> Kai Koenig
>
> Director & Software Solutions Architect
> Ventego Creative Ltd
>
> 154 Parkvale Road, Karori
> Wellington, New Zealand
>
> Office: +64  4 476 6781
> Mobile: +64 21 928 365
>
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.ventego-creative.co.nz
> blog: http://www.bloginblack.de
>
>
> >
>

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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Eliseo]

Angel,


Angel,

I was very much like you in that respect a few years ago... My wife
still doesn't understand that I need my mental gears to be constantly
grinding... I think she's only just starting to warm up to the idea of
my geekiness after seeing my blog about the Candidate-Recruiter
dynamic today and commented at how clever and insightful I was...


http://recruiting-dos-and-donts.blogspot.com/


True, sometimes not having had the time to work on those personal
projects can be somewhat detrimental. I have an unfinished mysetry
novel, a non-fiction book about fundamentalist interpretation of the
Bible also unfinished, as well as a Unicode transcription application
and a project application called the HSX Seer, all in the pipe-
works...

I may not have completed any of these, but I mention them and the blog
in my CV; and if anyone asks me about these items, I can easily
describe these projects for at least a minute and a half; because
generally that's all you have to explain a personal project to someone
before they may start to lose interest.

I lost track of my Recruitment blog for about 2 months, and lost...
well I didn't really lose any audience at that stage as they didn't
really appear until March... but that's not the point ;) As long as
there is some mention in your own CV it is bound to raise some
interest... Or slipping it into some general conversation... so long
as you can dumb it down for the non-techs...

Yes, you do have to take a stance... Imagine if Martin Luther King had
said "I have a dream, but I have a feeling you don't want to hear
about it."

If you feel strongly about your ideas, have it mentioned somewhere
like me on your CV under personal interests or personal projects...
Clients look at these at some point and do take notice... but if you
can back up these references in the CV to a short spiel, they will
believe that you are passionate about your coding...

I think I must have done something right at my interview, as I
mentioned the HSX Seer and my transcription program, and he decided to
forgo the technical quiz! LOL

-- Eliseo
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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[CyberAngel]

You know I had this debate once before.

 

I was a clock in clock out type of guy, but when at home I didn't have
internet access and a partner that refused me to run a server. What we do
for love L

 

Anyway, I got into a debate because I could not keep up with blogs and such
during work hours. And I was seen as a black goat to the industry, yet when
I had a chance, not hard core. But hard enough to R&D ideas, I couldn't get
it through to certain people that sometimes one has to take a stance... And
although I had ideas, and what if's and tried these in what time I could
get. It wasn't enough.

 

Does that make me not good enough?

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2008 9:16 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re:
recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

 

Personal Projects can use COBOL for all that matters, the point is - does
this person love to program, or do they just clock/clock out. The
clock-in/clock-out  folks are good, and nothing taken away from them, but
are they creative enough to get the job done? that's the intent, to
determine can this person do the work ahead of them.

 

That and determine if this person day dreams a lot (which you can coach and
contain/work around).

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Eliseo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


> I say, when you interview folks, ask them about what they do outside of
> work, if they are doing home-projects in CF or whatever, hire them on the
> spot.

Funny you should say that, I have a few personal projects but more
based on PERL and JavaScript, none in ColdFusion at this point in
time, but the way I'm going with the progress of my main project, I
may have to consider the possibility of porting the project to
ColdFusion anyhow...

It seems that the jobs I have managed to get have all involved this
mentioning of my personal programming projects... Maybe that's what
I'll need to keep doing...

By the way, KC, do you still have that URL of that Seek role you
mentioned, see your previous and my previous posts...

-- Eliseo




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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Scott Barnes]

Personal Projects can use COBOL for all that matters, the point is - does
this person love to program, or do they just clock/clock out. The
clock-in/clock-out  folks are good, and nothing taken away from them, but
are they creative enough to get the job done? that's the intent, to
determine can this person do the work ahead of them.

That and determine if this person day dreams a lot (which you can coach and
contain/work around).

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Eliseo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> > I say, when you interview folks, ask them about what they do outside of
> > work, if they are doing home-projects in CF or whatever, hire them on
> the
> > spot.
>
> Funny you should say that, I have a few personal projects but more
> based on PERL and JavaScript, none in ColdFusion at this point in
> time, but the way I'm going with the progress of my main project, I
> may have to consider the possibility of porting the project to
> ColdFusion anyhow...
>
> It seems that the jobs I have managed to get have all involved this
> mentioning of my personal programming projects... Maybe that's what
> I'll need to keep doing...
>
> By the way, KC, do you still have that URL of that Seek role you
> mentioned, see your previous and my previous posts...
>
> -- Eliseo
>  >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Eliseo]

> I say, when you interview folks, ask them about what they do outside of
> work, if they are doing home-projects in CF or whatever, hire them on the
> spot.

Funny you should say that, I have a few personal projects but more
based on PERL and JavaScript, none in ColdFusion at this point in
time, but the way I'm going with the progress of my main project, I
may have to consider the possibility of porting the project to
ColdFusion anyhow...

It seems that the jobs I have managed to get have all involved this
mentioning of my personal programming projects... Maybe that's what
I'll need to keep doing...

By the way, KC, do you still have that URL of that Seek role you
mentioned, see your previous and my previous posts...

-- Eliseo
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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Scott Barnes]

In Brisbane 2yrs ago, I was getting around 60-90k mark for CF Work depending
on how bad of a shape the company was in and what I was there to do.

That being said, I've never meet a bad coldfusion developer, only a
developer with a bad attitude :). Some of the "noobies" I've seen been
classed as that, run rings around the "seniors" as they are still passionate
about their choice in technology, eager to learn (which leads to work being
actually done instead of talked about) and in all, it's been great to see
them thrive in it all.

I say, when you interview folks, ask them about what they do outside of
work, if they are doing home-projects in CF or whatever, hire them on the
spot. Shows they are passionate about their technology and give them a
jersey. $45-50k for a Junior, and 60-90k for a Senior. 90k+ for a Architect
(but usually they'll come armed with to the teeth with a broad range of
technologies).

Scott.



On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Kai Koenig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Eliseo,
>
> >That's nonsense... there's CF Developers around providing the company
> >wanting to do the hiring has enough $$ to persuade someone to come on
> >board...
>
> Oh, let's start a new 100+ post discussion on the topic of salaries
> paid by CF development shops - I find that really interesting,
> particularly because everyone here in NZ is talking about the big
> brain-drain, people leaving the country for overseas work, huge
> skills shortage etc, and also because I'm running a company myself
> for a while now.
>
> Speaking from a New Zealand point of view - it's not much of a surprise,
> with for instance seeing advertisement on seek where "international media"
> companies up in Auckland (which is shockingly expensive to live at - even
> with European or US costs of living in mind) are willing to pay 50-65k NZ$
> annual salary for an experienced CF/Flex developer. Seriously - you get
> what you ask for.
>
> Paying someone experienced, who might be even motivated enough to continue
> educating him/herself and is maybe even involved in whatever sort of
> community
> activities (even if it's "just" reading a mailing list), such a salary
> leads to fluctuation, staff turnover, staff feeling not valued etc. I'm
> not
> saying that it all comes down to salary, certainly not. But companies
> can't
> expect to get the super-rockstar developers for such a salary.
>
> I once read an article written by a well-known business consultant here
> in NZ and he was saying it wasn't worth it to pay people higher than
> average
> salaries, it wasn't worth it to give them an annual salary increase
> exceeding
> CPI etc and that his recommendation would be to always get juniors in,
> train them up and then - even if they leave after one year - just get
> another junior in to replace the person. Seriously - I think it's
> absolutely the wrong approach - but that's me. Yes, a company with a
> certain
> size would need a certain percentage of junior developers to work more
> efficiently and to ensure there are new people coming up.
>
> Any opinions - really interested in hearing other people's thoughts!
>
> Please don't flame if you disagree :)
>
> Cheers
> Kai
>
>
>
> 
> Kai Koenig
>
> Director & Software Solutions Architect
> Ventego Creative Ltd
>
> 154 Parkvale Road, Karori
> Wellington, New Zealand
>
> Office: +64  4 476 6781
> Mobile: +64 21 928 365
>
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.ventego-creative.co.nz
> blog: http://www.bloginblack.de
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Eliseo]

> I have been seeing this ad on seek.com.au that wanted a 9+ year
> commercial experience CF developer and only offering around 90k
> package as far as I can remember, they also had a fairly hard to come
> by wishlist... Its been there a few months and I expect it to be there
> for another few at least...

KC, where exactly is *this* particular ad? I don't recall coming
across anything for a CF role asking for 9+ years?

Could you throw the link in the thread for me to take a look?

-- Eliseo
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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[KC Kuok]

Hi Kai/Eliseo,

I agree with you guys... it seems decent CF developers are few and far
between... yet we seem to struggle to find 1) positions with a chance
to be creative 2) positions where you will be groomed professionally
3) pay more than helpdesk support 3

Personally some of the apps I write, probably save us literally a fair
bit of money and add alot of value to my organisation as well (I doubt
any other school in AU/NZ has a blogging platform that comes close to
ours at the moment. Or how our integration stuff save us paying the
vendors their exorbant rates for "customizing" their <> databases) Yet i am paid less than helpdesk support
lvl 2 (though I am only coming up to my 2 years working full time here
and total. In the long run I might consider doing DB admin (as they
easily earn 50% more of what I am doing but alot less interesting
work), nah just kidding probably go crazy looking after DB as a FT
job... sick of looking after the few I have to babysit atm. /end rant

I have been seeing this ad on seek.com.au that wanted a 9+ year
commercial experience CF developer and only offering around 90k
package as far as I can remember, they also had a fairly hard to come
by wishlist... Its been there a few months and I expect it to be there
for another few at least...

> I once read an article written by a well-known business consultant here
> in NZ and he was saying it wasn't worth it to pay people higher than average
> salaries, it wasn't worth it to give them an annual salary increase exceeding
> CPI etc and that his recommendation would be to always get juniors in,
> train them up and then - even if they leave after one year - just get
> another junior in to replace the person. Seriously - I think it's
> absolutely the wrong approach - but that's me. Yes, a company with a certain
> size would need a certain percentage of junior developers to work more
> efficiently and to ensure there are new people coming up.
>
> Any opinions - really interested in hearing other people's thoughts!\

I hope this guy is well known for spewing rubbish... most business
owners/managers should know, the cost of hiring someone new and bring
them up to speed far exceeds the cost of losing someone who already
knows your system and processes and is a good employee... losing good
staff because you only want to pay peanuts is how to lose your talent
pool and your competitive edge.

Just my 2 cents.
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[cfaussie] Re: Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Fibonacci]

Kai,

Trust me, with the way this thread is going we may be able to get a
Guinness World Record ;)

AU and NZ seem to be getting the raw end of the stick when it comes to
available positions right now... US and UK are booming now... and
there's a fair number of roles out there that would pay big time if
those looking down here were to move up there...

I'd do that if I wasn't so tied down here... Married, a couple of
financial commitments and all my family is down here... I'm sure it
may be a similar situation with developers in NZ.

Sydney itself as a number of positions, not many but a number... a
shame that right now, as I mentioned in my most recent post relating
to "hitches" is that there seems to be a desperation to get these jobs
filled... I've seen one job bounce to four different recruiters simply
because they couldn't find the right person... Clients want perfection
in a candidate... which has always been to the detriment of recruiters
because they have to "sell" a candidate that isn't 100% to their needs
as being the best that money can buy...

Kai, if I could I'd help you out, mate... but my wife wouldn't dream
of having me work in NZ unless she went down with me... unless
something was set up for me, but most companies wouldn't normally go
out of their way to accommodate a candidate.

What surprises me more is that a number of roles require an exorbitant
amount of experience and in return get paid so little, a gross
misunderstanding as to the abilities of us CF developers... Your
example in the salary range for Auckland roles is surprising... Sydney
being a rather expensive city as well has been pushing a few roles at
about the 70-80K mark, when the average role some few months back was
hitting about 80-90K...

> But companies can't expect to get the super-rockstar developers for such a 
> salary.

Of course not, it *is* a case of you get what you paid for... but
naturally if you are paid a certain amount you have to work like you
deserve that, if not more... I always push myself as much as I can to
get out the solutions required for my projects.

Ironically enough, Commander, who made me redundant some 2 or so
months ago are now re-hiring someone with my skill set (DHTML/CF/SQL,
etc), but because of my previous and recent employment there, I can't
even apply... on top of that, the salary they're trying to push for
this role is about 70% of what they should normally pay someone with
that level of skill...

The likelihood they'll be able to fill this position is low,
especially considering the recent financial history of the company,
but regardless of this, they are also hoping to pay low $$ got high
talent...

> I once read an article written by a well-known business consultant here
> in NZ and he was saying it wasn't worth it to pay people higher than average
> salaries, it wasn't worth it to give them an annual salary increase exceeding
> CPI etc and that his recommendation would be to always get juniors in,
> train them up and then - even if they leave after one year - just get
> another junior in to replace the person. Seriously - I think it's
> absolutely the wrong approach - but that's me.

I agree here as well, just because you get fresh "new" talent in
doesn't mean the company will improve... No one likes to approach a
company with a high staff turn-over... and if you're going to be
wading through a lake full of fresh graduate developers... the
pressure will be on the higher-level, more experienced developers to
get these new ones on track...

~ Eliseo
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[cfaussie] Salaries inb CF jobs (was: Re: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?)

[Kai Koenig]

Eliseo,

>That's nonsense... there's CF Developers around providing the company
>wanting to do the hiring has enough $$ to persuade someone to come on
>board...

Oh, let's start a new 100+ post discussion on the topic of salaries 
paid by CF development shops - I find that really interesting, 
particularly because everyone here in NZ is talking about the big 
brain-drain, people leaving the country for overseas work, huge
skills shortage etc, and also because I'm running a company myself
for a while now.

Speaking from a New Zealand point of view - it's not much of a surprise, 
with for instance seeing advertisement on seek where "international media"
companies up in Auckland (which is shockingly expensive to live at - even 
with European or US costs of living in mind) are willing to pay 50-65k NZ$
annual salary for an experienced CF/Flex developer. Seriously - you get 
what you ask for. 

Paying someone experienced, who might be even motivated enough to continue
educating him/herself and is maybe even involved in whatever sort of
community 
activities (even if it's "just" reading a mailing list), such a salary 
leads to fluctuation, staff turnover, staff feeling not valued etc. I'm not 
saying that it all comes down to salary, certainly not. But companies can't 
expect to get the super-rockstar developers for such a salary.

I once read an article written by a well-known business consultant here 
in NZ and he was saying it wasn't worth it to pay people higher than average
salaries, it wasn't worth it to give them an annual salary increase exceeding
CPI etc and that his recommendation would be to always get juniors in,
train them up and then - even if they leave after one year - just get
another junior in to replace the person. Seriously - I think it's 
absolutely the wrong approach - but that's me. Yes, a company with a certain
size would need a certain percentage of junior developers to work more
efficiently and to ensure there are new people coming up.

Any opinions - really interested in hearing other people's thoughts!

Please don't flame if you disagree :)

Cheers
Kai




Kai Koenig
 
Director & Software Solutions Architect
Ventego Creative Ltd

154 Parkvale Road, Karori
Wellington, New Zealand
 
Office: +64  4 476 6781
Mobile: +64 21 928 365

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.ventego-creative.co.nz
blog: http://www.bloginblack.de


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Fibonacci]

> http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=col...

There's also a bit of a hitch here... a lot of CF-based clients
usually won't reconsider a CF candidate if they feel he didn't fit the
bill from a previous interview or approach.

I've had this situation a number of times, and I can count from what's
currently in that list there in the Seek URL above a number of roles
that I've already applied to, been rejected under certain grounds and
therefore can't re-approach for at least a good six to nine months...

Mind you, I've seen roles that have been up and running continuously
for a good three months... with no result...

I'm even considering asking any of you who are Sydney-based, who are
most likely in CF roles of your own whether the companies you're in
are also looking for more CF developers... Although I've been back on
the market for just a week, I'm coming close to exhausting a large
number of possibilities seeing that most of the roles that are out now
on Seek/MyCareer/CareerOne/JobsJobsJobs/Byron were also up about a
month ago...

Anyone have any possible vacancies?

Regards,

Eliseo (aka Fibonacci)
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Fibonacci]

Barry...

> According to a recruiter I spoke to this morning, one client on his
> books who is just about to throw the towel in on CF and get his apps
> re-written in another language - he can't find the CF developers to
> maintain and extend it.

That's nonsense... there's CF Developers around providing the company
wanting to do the hiring has enough $$ to persuade someone to come on
board...

Your recruiter associate if they're looking to get a CF developer...
send them my way, I happen to be on the look out for ColdFusion roles
wherever possible... with almost 9 years of experience, I may be able
to satisfy their client's requirements...

Oh, but I won't go interstate... too many commitments down here...

Regards,

Eliseo (aka Fibonacci)


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

You win.. we done now?

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Detect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Sorry I also was missing my emoticons, I actually meant:
>
> Scott, why don't you knock it off? \o/ You aren't really contributing
> anything new here and statements like "put together your draft plan on
> how to change the world, one CF step at a time and approach them" are
> ridiculous. :)
>
> I don't give a toss about "product evangelizing" or coming up with
> strategies for Adobe. :O I'd like to concentrate on developing and if
> CF did die (which it won't) I'd move on to something else just like
> everyone else would. End of story. (-_-) zzZZ
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 15, 10:36 am, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > bite me whomever you are "detect" :)
> >
> >
> >
>  > On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Detect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > No Charlie it's not you.
> >
> > > Scott, why don't you knock it off? You aren't really contributing
> > > anything new here and statements like "put together your draft plan on
> > > how to change the world, one CF step at a time
> > > and approach them" are ridiculous.
> >
> > > I don't give a toss about "product evangelizing" or coming up with
> > > strategies for Adobe. I'd like to concentrate on developing and if CF
> > > did die (which it won't) I'd move on to something else just like
> > > everyone else would. End of story.
> >
> > > On Apr 15, 9:08 am, "charlie arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >  > "Knock it off?"
> >
> > > > Goodness, Scott, why can't someone offer a correction to something
> you
> > > say
> > > > without it seeming to be tantamount to a request for a duel?
> >
> > > > I'm, as always, just trying to help folks. I don't have the
> > > emotional/ego
> > > > investment that it seems you think I do. Anyone else want to speak
> up on
> > > > this? Am I coming across the wrong way?
> >
> > > > /charlie
> >
> > > > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of Scott Barnes
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:43 PM
> > > > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > > > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
> not
> > > FUD
> > > > from them too?
> >
> > > > Anyway, allow me to retort:
> >
> > > > Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most
> folks
> > > > have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You
> > > could
> > > > furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to
> mind
> > > > given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such
> meeting.
> >
> > > > Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean
> he/show
> > > > doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.com
>  >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Detect]

Sorry I also was missing my emoticons, I actually meant:

Scott, why don't you knock it off? \o/ You aren't really contributing
anything new here and statements like "put together your draft plan on
how to change the world, one CF step at a time and approach them" are
ridiculous. :)

I don't give a toss about "product evangelizing" or coming up with
strategies for Adobe. :O I'd like to concentrate on developing and if
CF did die (which it won't) I'd move on to something else just like
everyone else would. End of story. (-_-) zzZZ





On Apr 15, 10:36 am, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> bite me whomever you are "detect" :)
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Detect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > No Charlie it's not you.
>
> > Scott, why don't you knock it off? You aren't really contributing
> > anything new here and statements like "put together your draft plan on
> > how to change the world, one CF step at a time
> > and approach them" are ridiculous.
>
> > I don't give a toss about "product evangelizing" or coming up with
> > strategies for Adobe. I'd like to concentrate on developing and if CF
> > did die (which it won't) I'd move on to something else just like
> > everyone else would. End of story.
>
> > On Apr 15, 9:08 am, "charlie arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >  > "Knock it off?"
>
> > > Goodness, Scott, why can't someone offer a correction to something you
> > say
> > > without it seeming to be tantamount to a request for a duel?
>
> > > I'm, as always, just trying to help folks. I don't have the
> > emotional/ego
> > > investment that it seems you think I do. Anyone else want to speak up on
> > > this? Am I coming across the wrong way?
>
> > > /charlie
>
> > > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of Scott Barnes
> > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:43 PM
> > > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> > FUD
> > > from them too?
>
> > > Anyway, allow me to retort:
>
> > > Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most folks
> > > have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You
> > could
> > > furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to mind
> > > given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such meeting.
>
> > > Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean he/show
> > > doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.com
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

bite me whomever you are "detect" :)

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Detect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> No Charlie it's not you.
>
> Scott, why don't you knock it off? You aren't really contributing
> anything new here and statements like "put together your draft plan on
> how to change the world, one CF step at a time
> and approach them" are ridiculous.
>
> I don't give a toss about "product evangelizing" or coming up with
> strategies for Adobe. I'd like to concentrate on developing and if CF
> did die (which it won't) I'd move on to something else just like
> everyone else would. End of story.
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 15, 9:08 am, "charlie arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>  > "Knock it off?"
> >
> > Goodness, Scott, why can't someone offer a correction to something you
> say
> > without it seeming to be tantamount to a request for a duel?
> >
> > I'm, as always, just trying to help folks. I don't have the
> emotional/ego
> > investment that it seems you think I do. Anyone else want to speak up on
> > this? Am I coming across the wrong way?
> >
> > /charlie
> >
> > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf
> > Of Scott Barnes
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:43 PM
> > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD
> > from them too?
> >
> > Anyway, allow me to retort:
> >
> > Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most folks
> > have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You
> could
> > furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to mind
> > given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such meeting.
> >
> > Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean he/show
> > doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

Sorry it was a joke ;) hehehe.. I guess i should of added a :)  at the
end..

defensive much.

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:08 AM, charlie arehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>  "Knock it off?"
>
>
>
> Goodness, Scott, why can't someone offer a correction to something you say
> without it seeming to be tantamount to a request for a duel?
>
>
>
> I'm, as always, just trying to help folks. I don't have the emotional/ego
> investment that it seems you think I do. Anyone else want to speak up on
> this? Am I coming across the wrong way?
>
>
>
> /charlie
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Monday, April 14, 2008 6:43 PM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
> Anyway, allow me to retort:
>
>
>
> Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most folks
> have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You could
> furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to mind
> given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such meeting.
>
>
>
> Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean he/show
> doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Ricardo Russon]

I started learning CF way back in 4.5.

I have managed to make money from it in some shape or form since then.

I love CF, and like everyone else here I will always choose it over ASP or
PHP : given the choice.

But, the niche serves us well. It gives us a specilised skill. And it also
means that we have greater choice for job prospects.

I say that because dont believe "CF is on the way out". And I dont believe
that if Adobe wants to keep/market their product as a niche specialised
product that we should be trying to change that. Especially when it is
serving all us well in its current form.

And I think anyone who believes that the best way to secure their future is
to evangelise someone else's product (without being paid), are only doing
themselves harm.

Ricardo.

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Kay Smoljak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Short answer: it's not.
>
> Long answer: many people feel that if ColdFusion were more popular and
> widespread, they'd have better job security/job prospects etc.

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Detect]

No Charlie it's not you.

Scott, why don't you knock it off? You aren't really contributing
anything new here and statements like "put together your draft plan on
how to change the world, one CF step at a time
and approach them" are ridiculous.

I don't give a toss about "product evangelizing" or coming up with
strategies for Adobe. I'd like to concentrate on developing and if CF
did die (which it won't) I'd move on to something else just like
everyone else would. End of story.




On Apr 15, 9:08 am, "charlie arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> "Knock it off?"
>
> Goodness, Scott, why can't someone offer a correction to something you say
> without it seeming to be tantamount to a request for a duel?
>
> I'm, as always, just trying to help folks. I don't have the emotional/ego
> investment that it seems you think I do. Anyone else want to speak up on
> this? Am I coming across the wrong way?
>
> /charlie
>
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Scott Barnes
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:43 PM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
> from them too?
>
> Anyway, allow me to retort:
>
> Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most folks
> have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You could
> furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to mind
> given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such meeting.
>
> Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean he/show
> doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

"Knock it off?" 

 

Goodness, Scott, why can't someone offer a correction to something you say
without it seeming to be tantamount to a request for a duel? 

 

I'm, as always, just trying to help folks. I don't have the emotional/ego
investment that it seems you think I do. Anyone else want to speak up on
this? Am I coming across the wrong way?

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:43 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Anyway, allow me to retort:

 

Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most folks
have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You could
furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to mind
given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such meeting. 

 

Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean he/show
doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.

 

 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

Anyway, allow me to retort:

Correct, Firstly, Tim is arriving NOT Jason/Kristen. Secondly most folks
have an EXISTING relationship with Tim via previous WebDU's etc. You could
furthermore use others to champion that cause, but Tim does come to mind
given the prev experience in the role and the intent of such meeting.

Just because a person moves around Product Teams doesn't mean he/show
doesn't know the lay of the land :). Again Charlie, knock it off.





On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 7:07 AM, charlie arehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>  Again, not trying to pick a fight (or let me put it more plainly: please
> don't jump on me about this Scott), but I do want to offer another
> clarification. Scott writes, "you have [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the boys from 
> the US
> at WebDU, put together your draft plan on how to change the world, one CF
> step at a time and approach them".
>
>
>
> In case it helps anyone seeking to approach the team at WebDU, first know
> that Tim is no longer on the CF team, having moved to Flex. Maybe, indeed
> Scott knew that, but he mentioned it in the context of CF, so I'm offering
> this to help, not to chide. Tim was indeed the CF product manager for a few
> years, but that he left that role in 2006 and Jason Delmore took it. Tim
> then returned later that year to become CF Product Marketing manager, but he
> left last year for the Flex team, and Kristen Schofield took his role, which
> also means it's no longer just "the boys". :-)
>
>
>
> /charlie
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Monday, April 14, 2008 9:09 AM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
>  *RE: Kay;s comment - compete with .NET (which has MS behind it, with far
> more resources than Adobe) *
>
>
>
> Actually a lot of the compete concern doesn't derive from Microsoft
> itself, your actual real competitors are the partners / customers of .NET
> technology. Microsoft market .NET in a plethora of ways, we specifically
> don't actively compete with Coldfusion all that much. In that in the end,
> folks here also are customers of ours whom buy SQL, Windows Servers etc and
> I state this as it's easy to demonise us as the bad guys, when in fact we
> have investment in the success and failures of Coldfusion (both obviously).
> We've also recently via Expression Web opened our tool(s) offering to
> support PHP, so in the end it's not a clear cut and dry - us or them,
> mentality.
>
>
>
> Like I stated, you have [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the boys from the US at WebDU, 
> put
> together your draft plan on how to change the world, one CF step at a time
> and approach them. Tim is by far the most approachable Adobe Staffer I know,
> and if you calmly state your case(s) on how you could change the "perception
> of community decomposition" with an action plan, I'd wager he'd look into
> ways of supporting it.
>
>
>
> I wouldn't recommend doing this alone, you will fail.
>
>
> Scott.
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

Again, not trying to pick a fight (or let me put it more plainly: please
don't jump on me about this Scott), but I do want to offer another
clarification. Scott writes, "you have [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the boys from the 
US at
WebDU, put together your draft plan on how to change the world, one CF step
at a time and approach them".

 

In case it helps anyone seeking to approach the team at WebDU, first know
that Tim is no longer on the CF team, having moved to Flex. Maybe, indeed
Scott knew that, but he mentioned it in the context of CF, so I'm offering
this to help, not to chide. Tim was indeed the CF product manager for a few
years, but that he left that role in 2006 and Jason Delmore took it. Tim
then returned later that year to become CF Product Marketing manager, but he
left last year for the Flex team, and Kristen Schofield took his role, which
also means it's no longer just "the boys". :-) 

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 9:09 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

RE: Kay;s comment - compete with .NET (which has MS behind it, with far more
resources than Adobe) 

 

Actually a lot of the compete concern doesn't derive from Microsoft itself,
your actual real competitors are the partners / customers of .NET
technology. Microsoft market .NET in a plethora of ways, we specifically
don't actively compete with Coldfusion all that much. In that in the end,
folks here also are customers of ours whom buy SQL, Windows Servers etc and
I state this as it's easy to demonise us as the bad guys, when in fact we
have investment in the success and failures of Coldfusion (both obviously).
We've also recently via Expression Web opened our tool(s) offering to
support PHP, so in the end it's not a clear cut and dry - us or them,
mentality.

 

Like I stated, you have [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the boys from the US at WebDU, put
together your draft plan on how to change the world, one CF step at a time
and approach them. Tim is by far the most approachable Adobe Staffer I know,
and if you calmly state your case(s) on how you could change the "perception
of community decomposition" with an action plan, I'd wager he'd look into
ways of supporting it.

 

I wouldn't recommend doing this alone, you will fail. 


Scott.


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Scott.

 

So glad that was with a lot of smilesJ

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Monday, 14 April 2008 11:12 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

We luv Geoff.. he's been the rock for CF Community for a decade (who here
feels old at the decade remark). I think all should give it up for Geoff
Bowers, as CF-life-time achievement award (seriously, he deserves a trophy
or something) :)

I'm fed-exing you a hug Geoff :)

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Geoff Bowers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Apr 9, 9:46 pm, "CyberAngel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think that Geoff, Mark and a few others are always doing presentations
on
> Coldfusion related products.

In recent years I've been talking about:

Taming the Code (and other code management topics)
Taming the Client (and other client management topics)
Igniting Your Community (and other open source evangelism)
The future of the web (crazy, eh :)
(plus of course all things CF and FarCry)

I attend venues such as web standards group, webJam and others more
frequently than I do CFUGs. Regardless of the topic my code examples
are nearly always CF related -- and why not?  Just about any developer
can understand CF constructs.

(btw anyone wants me to turn up somewhere and talk I'll do my best to
oblige).

I do this because I'm interested in these sorts of things, and hope
that other people might be interested too.  It's certainly not because
I feel any overriding need to preach ColdFusion to people -- although
I do enjoy giving a good CF sermon whenever I get a chance :)

I love programming in ColdFusion -- it's just so powerful.  I rarely,
if ever, think of the demise of CF.  It always seems like a silly
topic to me.  If it ever happens we'll just move, albeit with much
regret, to something else.  But for now it's a most elegant solution,
which can be turned to just about any web project both big and small.
I use it because it continues to be the best choice for my company and
clients.

My advice?  Keep building great things.  Keep building them on time.
Keep exceeding expectations.

That may sound like a glib statement -- but its hard for management to
face down a team that enjoys their tools and continues to produce
working solutions.

All the best,

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/




http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

We luv Geoff.. he's been the rock for CF Community for a decade (who here
feels old at the decade remark). I think all should give it up for Geoff
Bowers, as CF-life-time achievement award (seriously, he deserves a trophy
or something) :)
I'm fed-exing you a hug Geoff :)
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Geoff Bowers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On Apr 9, 9:46 pm, "CyberAngel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think that Geoff, Mark and a few others are always doing presentations
> on
> > Coldfusion related products.
>
> In recent years I've been talking about:
>
> Taming the Code (and other code management topics)
> Taming the Client (and other client management topics)
> Igniting Your Community (and other open source evangelism)
> The future of the web (crazy, eh :)
> (plus of course all things CF and FarCry)
>
> I attend venues such as web standards group, webJam and others more
> frequently than I do CFUGs. Regardless of the topic my code examples
> are nearly always CF related -- and why not?  Just about any developer
> can understand CF constructs.
>
> (btw anyone wants me to turn up somewhere and talk I'll do my best to
> oblige).
>
> I do this because I'm interested in these sorts of things, and hope
> that other people might be interested too.  It's certainly not because
> I feel any overriding need to preach ColdFusion to people -- although
> I do enjoy giving a good CF sermon whenever I get a chance :)
>
> I love programming in ColdFusion -- it's just so powerful.  I rarely,
> if ever, think of the demise of CF.  It always seems like a silly
> topic to me.  If it ever happens we'll just move, albeit with much
> regret, to something else.  But for now it's a most elegant solution,
> which can be turned to just about any web project both big and small.
> I use it because it continues to be the best choice for my company and
> clients.
>
> My advice?  Keep building great things.  Keep building them on time.
> Keep exceeding expectations.
>
> That may sound like a glib statement -- but its hard for management to
> face down a team that enjoys their tools and continues to produce
> working solutions.
>
> All the best,
>
> -- geoff
> http://www.daemon.com.au/
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

>
> *RE: Kay;s comment - compete with .NET (which has MS behind it, with far
> more resources than Adobe) *
>

Actually a lot of the compete concern doesn't derive from Microsoft itself,
your actual real competitors are the partners / customers of .NET
technology. Microsoft market .NET in a plethora of ways, we specifically
don't actively compete with Coldfusion all that much. In that in the end,
folks here also are customers of ours whom buy SQL, Windows Servers etc and
I state this as it's easy to demonise us as the bad guys, when in fact we
have investment in the success and failures of Coldfusion (both obviously).
We've also recently via Expression Web opened our tool(s) offering to
support PHP, so in the end it's not a clear cut and dry - us or them,
mentality.

Like I stated, you have [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the boys from the US at WebDU, put
together your draft plan on how to change the world, one CF step at a time
and approach them. Tim is by far the most approachable Adobe Staffer I know,
and if you calmly state your case(s) on how you could change the "perception
of community decomposition" with an action plan, I'd wager he'd look into
ways of supporting it.

I wouldn't recommend doing this alone, you will fail.

Scott.
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Kay Smoljak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Ricardo Russon
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But as a developer, why is it my job to promote coldfusion?
>
> Short answer: it's not.
>
> Long answer: many people feel that if ColdFusion were more popular and
> widespread, they'd have better job security/job prospects etc. We like
> coding in ColdFusion so we would like this to happen. ColdFusion's
> success is our success. So to help ColdFusion compete with .NET (which
> has MS behind it, with far more resources than Adobe) and PHP/Ruby
> (which have large proactive open source communities behind them), many
> people in the CF community feel they that by helping Adobe, we are
> helping ourselves.
>
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> business: www.cleverstarfish.com
> coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
> personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Geoff Bowers]

On Apr 9, 9:46 pm, "CyberAngel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think that Geoff, Mark and a few others are always doing presentations on
> Coldfusion related products.

In recent years I've been talking about:

Taming the Code (and other code management topics)
Taming the Client (and other client management topics)
Igniting Your Community (and other open source evangelism)
The future of the web (crazy, eh :)
(plus of course all things CF and FarCry)

I attend venues such as web standards group, webJam and others more
frequently than I do CFUGs. Regardless of the topic my code examples
are nearly always CF related -- and why not?  Just about any developer
can understand CF constructs.

(btw anyone wants me to turn up somewhere and talk I'll do my best to
oblige).

I do this because I'm interested in these sorts of things, and hope
that other people might be interested too.  It's certainly not because
I feel any overriding need to preach ColdFusion to people -- although
I do enjoy giving a good CF sermon whenever I get a chance :)

I love programming in ColdFusion -- it's just so powerful.  I rarely,
if ever, think of the demise of CF.  It always seems like a silly
topic to me.  If it ever happens we'll just move, albeit with much
regret, to something else.  But for now it's a most elegant solution,
which can be turned to just about any web project both big and small.
I use it because it continues to be the best choice for my company and
clients.

My advice?  Keep building great things.  Keep building them on time.
Keep exceeding expectations.

That may sound like a glib statement -- but its hard for management to
face down a team that enjoys their tools and continues to produce
working solutions.

All the best,

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/




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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kay Smoljak]

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Ricardo Russon
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But as a developer, why is it my job to promote coldfusion?

Short answer: it's not.

Long answer: many people feel that if ColdFusion were more popular and
widespread, they'd have better job security/job prospects etc. We like
coding in ColdFusion so we would like this to happen. ColdFusion's
success is our success. So to help ColdFusion compete with .NET (which
has MS behind it, with far more resources than Adobe) and PHP/Ruby
(which have large proactive open source communities behind them), many
people in the CF community feel they that by helping Adobe, we are
helping ourselves.

-- 
Kay Smoljak
business: www.cleverstarfish.com
coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Ricardo Russon]

Quick question : i know im going to get shot for this.
But as a developer, why is it my job to promote coldfusion? Isn't that
Adobe's job?
Don't they already pay people to do that?

I am a part time ColdFusion Developer, and I also run a small web shop where
we converted a lot of our ColdFusion code to PHP.

Because its what our clients had already "invested" in. And as mentioned
previously on this list, you do what makes good business sense. With PHP we
know that 99% of the time clients already have the infrastructure to support
it. That's simply not the case with ColdFusion. That's Adobe's job to fix.
Not mine. Until they can get their product into more hosting companies, and
on a level pricing structure with everyone else, there will always be
problems.

And I always get left with : Why? - "Why is it going to cost me me more per
year to host this application than to host something on a cheap PHP server"
- And the reason usually comes down to, "Because I can deliver it to you
faster" - That doesn't always cut it with clients.

I don't see what me going around and trying to convert all the "lost souls"
is going to do, or what direct benefit there is for me in promoting CF. As a
developer my job is to deliver solutions. If my clients don't care what's in
my tool box, then I would probably choose to use CF. If not, it shouldn't be
my job to sell them on CF.

... Maybe if i had a reseller account with them, that would be a different
story.

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Gary Barber]

Has anyone tried getting front end devs to code in CF.  Tried pitching 
to the Designer communities.? :)

I know a few of you are ex front end devs,  so just remember back that 
maybe the designer market is the one to preach too!

-- 
Gary Barber
Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect

Web: radharc.com.au
blog: manwithnoblog.com



KC Kuok wrote:
> Except that when i try to get people to convert from PHP or .Net, i.e.
> give CF a go, the usual response is that they usually have MORE than
> enough work already in either of those, and lack time to go learn
> another language. I have even brought non Native CF-ers to the CF8
> launch with the Vic CFUG. And they charge anywhere between 60-120 per
> hour and have full time jobs as well as projects on the side.
>
> Its abit of a chicken and egg, lack of developers = lack of noticeable
> presence = management not choosing to do projects in CF because of
> lack of developers = no one training new CF developers, etc etc etc...
> and round and round it goes...
>   


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Ricardo Russon]

And I thought I was the only one that looked up those sort of stats :)

Remember the domain counts I posted a while back?  That was 100%
> growth in .au domain names with cfm pages over the period 2004-2007
> indexed by Google.
>

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[KC Kuok]

Except that when i try to get people to convert from PHP or .Net, i.e.
give CF a go, the usual response is that they usually have MORE than
enough work already in either of those, and lack time to go learn
another language. I have even brought non Native CF-ers to the CF8
launch with the Vic CFUG. And they charge anywhere between 60-120 per
hour and have full time jobs as well as projects on the side.

Its abit of a chicken and egg, lack of developers = lack of noticeable
presence = management not choosing to do projects in CF because of
lack of developers = no one training new CF developers, etc etc etc...
and round and round it goes...

Personally I am already seriously considering taking up PHP again, but
that is a long way off(at least 6 months before I have to seriously
consider change jobs), still struggling to find time as it is to learn
and practise Flex on my own time. And truth be told if I decided what
language to use for any Projects it will probably be CF backend and
Flex frontend, but as it stands it is more practical to be known for
doing PHP backend and Flex frontend, due to lack of jobs/presence for
CF and that is the plain truth. Just have a look at how many jobs are
listed for CF each month (and actually try to guess whether its the
same jobs you saw last week/month), there are not many if any new
jobs. And not many, if any new development studios will pick CF as one
of their primary development language.

Even 2 months back when i was exploring other job opportunities the
pickings were slim, and still are. Just did it to find out what people
were looking for, and what people thought CF was going, and what I can
reasonably ask for in terms of pay at my current job.

The above qoute should read "its my career, Adobe's Technology"...
anyway as a rule i think it will be beneficial for all web developers
to know other languages... even if only to read and translate open
source solutions into your own projects.

PS: I don't like both Adobe and MS equally, and I believe competition
is good. Keeps all involved honest and continuously innovating.

Just my 2 cents,
Chong

On Apr 14, 2:48 pm, "barry.b" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Can I just second Gary's call to get out there in
> the community - it's YOUR technology, YOUR career. "
>
> well, it took 100+ posts to come around to this being the best way to
> shut up the doom-sayers (inc recruters may have assumptions we all
> disagree with) 
>
> but we got there in the end.
>
> here endith the lesson.
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[barry.b]

"Can I just second Gary's call to get out there in
the community - it's YOUR technology, YOUR career. "


well, it took 100+ posts to come around to this being the best way to
shut up the doom-sayers (inc recruters may have assumptions we all
disagree with) 

but we got there in the end.

here endith the lesson.



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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
>  Between reading this thread and responding to some rather
> uninformed criticism of Cairngorm over on iconara.net this is turning out
> to
>

He's not misinformed, Theo has some quite unique and valid perspective on
the matter. I'd encourage you to listen to his critique more and also look
beyond that post to other posts his made (i've been following his blog for
quite some time, and they guys the type of engineer/architect Flex should
have more of). design patterns enriching frameworks can be a positive and a
negative but more importantly folks need to not just focus on a destination,
but also the journey it took to arrive there.


>  be a "community" day.  Can I just second Gary's call to get out there in
> the community - it's YOUR technology, YOUR career.  Don't leave it up to the
> small business people (who seem to grasp this connection with income) and UG
> managers (who on any reasonable cost/benefit analysis must simply be stark,
> raving, bonkers).
>
> What's an evening a month - if you haven't noticed night time television
> these days is crap.
>

Agreed. I've just spent a year living breathing the communities and I've got
more friends, more contacts and learned more from it all. It's not a geeky
experience once you break away from the agendas and simply get to know
folks. Have fun with the communities and don't take things so serious is my
advice to all (even visit Perth.. heheh, i must get there again before i
depart to the US)

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Robin Hilliard]

On 14/04/2008, at 1:40 PM, Scott Barnes wrote:
> Deployment is evidence but it can be false positive is all ;)


Sure, (we did in fact count individual IPs the second time but not the  
first, so can't compare) - but it was rather excellent growth in  
deployment, none the less :-).

Between reading this thread and responding to some rather uninformed  
criticism of Cairngorm over on iconara.net this is turning out to be a  
"community" day.  Can I just second Gary's call to get out there in  
the community - it's YOUR technology, YOUR career.  Don't leave it up  
to the small business people (who seem to grasp this connection with  
income) and UG managers (who on any reasonable cost/benefit analysis  
must simply be stark, raving, bonkers).

What's an evening a month - if you haven't noticed night time  
television these days is crap.

Robin


ROBIN HILLIARD
Chief Executive Officer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Level 11
189 Kent Street
Sydney NSW 2001
Australia
Phone +61 2 9323 2507
Facsimile +61 2 9323 2501
Mobile +61 418 414 341
www.rocketboots.com.au  






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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

Robin,

Domain statistics don't factor into whether or not the said product is
growing or the community is growing. Owning 20 sites per client that mirror
the same code base is flawed theory. You need to factor in actual server
share (ie how buoyant is the ISP industry with it etc), Developer NSAT's and
above all and most important of all, partner growth (whom are using it, why,
where and how is it helped them increase profit margins).

Deployment is evidence but it can be false positive is all ;)


On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Robin Hilliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> On 12/04/2008, at 11:04 AM, Peter Robertson wrote:
>
> >  Is CF holding any
> > kind of parity in the market overall, or is some absolute growth just
> > a default in a growing market?  (I dunno, just asking).
>
>
> Remember the domain counts I posted a while back?  That was 100%
> growth in .au domain names with cfm pages over the period 2004-2007
> indexed by Google.
>
>
> ROBIN HILLIARD
> Chief Executive Officer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> RocketBoots Pty Ltd
> Level 11
> 189 Kent Street
> Sydney NSW 2001
> Australia
> Phone +61 2 9323 2507
> Facsimile +61 2 9323 2501
> Mobile +61 418 414 341
> www.rocketboots.com.au
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Robin Hilliard]

On 12/04/2008, at 11:04 AM, Peter Robertson wrote:

>  Is CF holding any
> kind of parity in the market overall, or is some absolute growth just
> a default in a growing market?  (I dunno, just asking).


Remember the domain counts I posted a while back?  That was 100%  
growth in .au domain names with cfm pages over the period 2004-2007  
indexed by Google.


ROBIN HILLIARD
Chief Executive Officer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Level 11
189 Kent Street
Sydney NSW 2001
Australia
Phone +61 2 9323 2507
Facsimile +61 2 9323 2501
Mobile +61 418 414 341
www.rocketboots.com.au

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

ahhh.. now this is a better conclusion to this thread..

You know on a side note and personal note, when I read internally someone
berating Coldfusion (simply because at times they don't know) i catch myself
evangelising it  or correcting them on it. Now, do what you will with that,
but I get a bit of a chuckle out of it.

Nice blog posts folks.. and Kay, I am the devil.

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Gary Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> I've tried to resist... But I can't!
>
> So CF has got all these great features, so what are YOU yes YOU going to
> do about it.  Just go back to day job and smile that only YOU know how
> great Coldfusion is.  Humm.  Thought about telling someone else besides
> your CF mates.
>
> Considered a light hearted Coldfusion shootout at the next local Barcamp
> or equivalent  :)
>
> --
> Gary Barber
> Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect
>
> Web: radharc.com.au
> blog: manwithnoblog.com
>
>
>
> barry.b wrote:
> >> I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
> >> a great deal.
> >>
> >
> > and
> > easy integration to Java code and .NET DLL's and MSExchange
> > cfdocument
> > cfreport
> > cfpresentation
> > cfmxml
> > remoting
> > webservices
> >
> > everyone knows this sure, but sometimes it gets forgotten that it's
> > coming from/via just one vendor, not a bunch of ad-hoc libraries with
> > "iffy" dependancies to worry about (or diff versions for that
> > matter)**. One licence for the lot.
> >
> > year before last: I had an ASP.NET/C#  app I wanted
> to migrate from
> > using .NET 1.1 to 2.0 but I couldn't - it wasn't cost effective to
> > change it and fix the breakages. ColdFusion has the best backwards
> > compatability - per version - of a product I've ever used. Including
> > Windows.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 14, 12:32 pm, "Kay Smoljak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Dammit, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread past my blog
> >> post about it (
> http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/opening-up-the-coldfusion-community/)...
> >> but now I have to speak up!
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Joel Cass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>  Plus I really am starting to like the flexibility and features of
> other
> >>>  languages, eg. OO features of .net and java,
> >>>
> >> CF has OO. CF is more OO than Java according to Sean Corfield's
> >> article in that latest FAQ-U (Vol II, Issue III, pg 7) because it has
> >> the onMissingMethod handler like SmallTalk and Ruby.
> >>
> >>
> >>> the plethora of functionality in PHP (thanks to it being open source).
> >>>
> >> CF has built in PDF, FTP, image handling, ExtJS grids/trees/etc,
> >> encryption, etc etc. What does PHP have that CF doesn't (apart from a
> >> whole stack of inconsistent and redundant functions)?
> >>
> >> Don't get me wrong, I like PHP and use it a lot, but CF is truly state
> >> of the art. I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
> >> a great deal.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kay Smoljak
> >> business:www.cleverstarfish.com
> >> coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
> >> personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com
> >>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Gary Barber]

I've tried to resist... But I can't!

So CF has got all these great features, so what are YOU yes YOU going to 
do about it.  Just go back to day job and smile that only YOU know how 
great Coldfusion is.  Humm.  Thought about telling someone else besides 
your CF mates.

Considered a light hearted Coldfusion shootout at the next local Barcamp 
or equivalent  :)

-- 
Gary Barber
Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect

Web: radharc.com.au
blog: manwithnoblog.com



barry.b wrote:
>> I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
>> a great deal.
>> 
>
> and
> easy integration to Java code and .NET DLL's and MSExchange
> cfdocument
> cfreport
> cfpresentation
> cfmxml
> remoting
> webservices
>
> everyone knows this sure, but sometimes it gets forgotten that it's
> coming from/via just one vendor, not a bunch of ad-hoc libraries with
> "iffy" dependancies to worry about (or diff versions for that
> matter)**. One licence for the lot.
>
> year before last: I had an ASP.NET/C# app I wanted to migrate from
> using .NET 1.1 to 2.0 but I couldn't - it wasn't cost effective to
> change it and fix the breakages. ColdFusion has the best backwards
> compatability - per version - of a product I've ever used. Including
> Windows.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 14, 12:32 pm, "Kay Smoljak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Dammit, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread past my blog
>> post about it 
>> (http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/opening-up-the-coldfusion-community/)...
>> but now I have to speak up!
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Joel Cass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>>  Plus I really am starting to like the flexibility and features of other
>>>  languages, eg. OO features of .net and java,
>>>   
>> CF has OO. CF is more OO than Java according to Sean Corfield's
>> article in that latest FAQ-U (Vol II, Issue III, pg 7) because it has
>> the onMissingMethod handler like SmallTalk and Ruby.
>>
>> 
>>> the plethora of functionality in PHP (thanks to it being open source).
>>>   
>> CF has built in PDF, FTP, image handling, ExtJS grids/trees/etc,
>> encryption, etc etc. What does PHP have that CF doesn't (apart from a
>> whole stack of inconsistent and redundant functions)?
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I like PHP and use it a lot, but CF is truly state
>> of the art. I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
>> a great deal.
>>
>> --
>> Kay Smoljak
>> business:www.cleverstarfish.com
>> coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
>> personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com
>> 
> >
>
>   


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[barry.b]

> I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
> a great deal.

and
easy integration to Java code and .NET DLL's and MSExchange
cfdocument
cfreport
cfpresentation
cfmxml
remoting
webservices

everyone knows this sure, but sometimes it gets forgotten that it's
coming from/via just one vendor, not a bunch of ad-hoc libraries with
"iffy" dependancies to worry about (or diff versions for that
matter)**. One licence for the lot.

year before last: I had an ASP.NET/C# app I wanted to migrate from
using .NET 1.1 to 2.0 but I couldn't - it wasn't cost effective to
change it and fix the breakages. ColdFusion has the best backwards
compatability - per version - of a product I've ever used. Including
Windows.






On Apr 14, 12:32 pm, "Kay Smoljak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dammit, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread past my blog
> post about it 
> (http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/opening-up-the-coldfusion-community/)...
> but now I have to speak up!
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Joel Cass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Plus I really am starting to like the flexibility and features of other
> >  languages, eg. OO features of .net and java,
>
> CF has OO. CF is more OO than Java according to Sean Corfield's
> article in that latest FAQ-U (Vol II, Issue III, pg 7) because it has
> the onMissingMethod handler like SmallTalk and Ruby.
>
> > the plethora of functionality in PHP (thanks to it being open source).
>
> CF has built in PDF, FTP, image handling, ExtJS grids/trees/etc,
> encryption, etc etc. What does PHP have that CF doesn't (apart from a
> whole stack of inconsistent and redundant functions)?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I like PHP and use it a lot, but CF is truly state
> of the art. I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
> a great deal.
>
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> business:www.cleverstarfish.com
> coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
> personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kay Smoljak]

Dammit, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread past my blog
post about it 
(http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/opening-up-the-coldfusion-community/)...
but now I have to speak up!

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Joel Cass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Plus I really am starting to like the flexibility and features of other
>  languages, eg. OO features of .net and java,

CF has OO. CF is more OO than Java according to Sean Corfield's
article in that latest FAQ-U (Vol II, Issue III, pg 7) because it has
the onMissingMethod handler like SmallTalk and Ruby.

> the plethora of functionality in PHP (thanks to it being open source).

CF has built in PDF, FTP, image handling, ExtJS grids/trees/etc,
encryption, etc etc. What does PHP have that CF doesn't (apart from a
whole stack of inconsistent and redundant functions)?

Don't get me wrong, I like PHP and use it a lot, but CF is truly state
of the art. I don't agree that it hasn't changed much, it has changed
a great deal.

-- 
Kay Smoljak
business: www.cleverstarfish.com
coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Joel Cass]

I only say better because they are newer. CF hasn't changed much in the
last 7 or so years since MX. But outside of CF a lot has changed in the
past 7 years, brings me to the conclusion that CF is "dated". 

Plus I really am starting to like the flexibility and features of other
languages, eg. OO features of .net and java, the plethora of
functionality in PHP (thanks to it being open source).

But CF is still really, really good.

-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Detect
Sent: Monday, 14 April 2008 11:10 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
FUD from them too?



> Strongly agree with Scott and Kay. Don't lock yourself into CF. It's
> very good but there are newer and (should I say) better technologies
out
> there.


Just curious, what technologies are you referring to here?


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Detect]

> Strongly agree with Scott and Kay. Don't lock yourself into CF. It's
> very good but there are newer and (should I say) better technologies out
> there.


Just curious, what technologies are you referring to here?
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

*Q. How did we arrive at the conclusion CF Server = Dead. The perception and
topic at hand is the community around the product in a state of
decomposition? If so, how does one fix it. Not "oh dear, Adobe are going to
abandon Coldfusion?"*

I have serious doubts Coldfusion in it's essence will die off or be
depreciated, it may one day down the track - whom knows - go through a brand
adjustment, but overall this product is a socket influence for Adobe when it
comes to both tail-end (web) and corporate to Enterprise markets. In that,
it provides hooks to both Adobe Flash technology and Adobe Live Cycle - the
glue if you will. That being said, the folks whom are likely to build in
Coldfusion are also likely to promote and evangelise the Adobe
Flash/LiveCycle product ranges within the said install location - so it's
got many positives for Adobe.

The kicking point for Coldfusion however is, maturity in the folks whom
provide solutions around it. If you're community leaders are migrating away
into other technologies, then in turn the solution maturity will begin to
drop off - bad experiences can be had with the brand and in that case that
will be a tipping point for Adobe to decide an alternative strategy or
albeit, re-energise their existing army to breed more.

The thing is, this whole technology industry is very similar to building an
Army. You train troops, you deploy them into battle. Those that make it back
alive have gained experience etc, the trick now is to start looking at
promoting them through awards/medals but also start to think about a career
path for them in terms of breaking the experienced leaders into their own
platoons. Separate, Divide, Repeat.

That's my point of contention, i am yet to personally see this methodology
applied, as Barry put it - Gary and his crew are moving off into Java. The
Suncorp guys are moved off onto other things (Darren doesn't do 24/7
Coldfusion i'd wager either), most of my friends are doing the exactly the
same thing. Question now remains is there a workforce coming in behind them
to replenish their ranks? Is Barry Beattie for one himself teaching a junior
right now how to make his / her mark with Coldfusion..

Scott.



On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Dale Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> At the end of the day, ColdFusion is dead until Adobe stop making new
> versions.
>
> Since they just released Version 8 and are working on Version 9. It just
> isn't dead.
>
> Companies don't spend millions of dollars on dead products.
>
> So if we wish to discuss dead products, let's talk about Turbo Pascal or
> something else that really is dead.
>
> Regards
> Dale Fraser
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf
> Of barry.b
> Sent: Monday, 14 April 2008 10:28 AM
> To: cfaussie
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD
> from them too?
>
>
>
>
>  > Barry:Would you say it's been happening for what? 5+ years now?
>
> I'd really like to respond to this chapter-and-verse at the moment but
> I'm really pushed for time...
>
> but I will say that (IMHO) Kay Smoljak is right on the money: The
> issue isn't a religious war. it's not good Vs evil or red team  Vs
> blue - unless you're a shareholder of Adobe or Microsoft (hey Scott -
> shares in the company are part of your package, yes?)
>
> for everyone else, a particular technology is an enabler. That's all.
>
> Sure people have their preference - and I came kicking and screaming
> into CF late 2002 (CF6.0/Redsky/CF6.1), grudgingly used it then like
> it and stayed for the ride. Meanwhile I'd been using ASP (classic) and
> had been part of the ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> public beta up to it's
> release where I
> deamed ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> 1.0 a pile of rubbish and turned my back
> on it (it was
> the infinite post-backs as one reason that killed it for me although I
> really like some things in C# - it has what Java should)
>
> but it's noteworthy to see that when I was a CF-noob, "old hands" like
> Gary Menzel were active in the community - now Vaughn and the guys are
> migrating (have migrated?) to Java and are nowhere to be seen in the
> CF world. People move on, situations change.
>
> "ColdFusion - he's just this guy, y'know?"
>
> don't get me wrong, for mine, CF is the best darn bang-for-buck I can
> get. But if you asked a question of which web-based technology is
> "best" then you'll not get one single answer: as Sean Corfield often
> says "it depends!". there's still a ton of dynamic web apps written in
> VBScript (ASP classic - de

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Dale Fraser]

At the end of the day, ColdFusion is dead until Adobe stop making new
versions.

Since they just released Version 8 and are working on Version 9. It just
isn't dead.

Companies don't spend millions of dollars on dead products.

So if we wish to discuss dead products, let's talk about Turbo Pascal or
something else that really is dead.

Regards
Dale Fraser

-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of barry.b
Sent: Monday, 14 April 2008 10:28 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?




> Barry:Would you say it's been happening for what? 5+ years now?

I'd really like to respond to this chapter-and-verse at the moment but
I'm really pushed for time...

but I will say that (IMHO) Kay Smoljak is right on the money: The
issue isn't a religious war. it's not good Vs evil or red team  Vs
blue - unless you're a shareholder of Adobe or Microsoft (hey Scott -
shares in the company are part of your package, yes?)

for everyone else, a particular technology is an enabler. That's all.

Sure people have their preference - and I came kicking and screaming
into CF late 2002 (CF6.0/Redsky/CF6.1), grudgingly used it then like
it and stayed for the ride. Meanwhile I'd been using ASP (classic) and
had been part of the ASP.NET public beta up to it's release where I
deamed ASP.NET 1.0 a pile of rubbish and turned my back on it (it was
the infinite post-backs as one reason that killed it for me although I
really like some things in C# - it has what Java should)

but it's noteworthy to see that when I was a CF-noob, "old hands" like
Gary Menzel were active in the community - now Vaughn and the guys are
migrating (have migrated?) to Java and are nowhere to be seen in the
CF world. People move on, situations change.

"ColdFusion - he's just this guy, y'know?"

don't get me wrong, for mine, CF is the best darn bang-for-buck I can
get. But if you asked a question of which web-based technology is
"best" then you'll not get one single answer: as Sean Corfield often
says "it depends!". there's still a ton of dynamic web apps written in
VBScript (ASP classic - depricated in 2003). Ford Vs Holden, anyone?

and, leaning heavily on the capabilities of the little Flash Player,
Adobe are starting to get together an interesting technology stack
suitable for the "digital media" world (although the mess of LiveCycle
with DS and ES, et al, needs to be sorted - too confusing for
managers). It makes the ownership of CF by Adobe that (seems to start
to) have good flow-on effects.

so when it comes to job choices, platform can a modifier. ie: you take
a dev job with a CF flavour.

1) enabler: the technology becomes the vehicle for people to do things
better/faster, etc.
2) enabler: the technology is a joy to use so it gives job
statisfaction doing things.
3) enabler: the technology has the platform longevity to keep you
doing this for as long as you need it to.

and I have no doubt that coding CF could give me both for many years
to come. I support the technology to do my bit in it thriving into the
future. I have no shares in Adobe so the long-term outcome for me is
purely future employment.

which is why I try and get people interested in CFUG's, etc - being
active in ensuring the platform has logevity and providing job
security by platform security, instead of being a passenger blown
along with the winds... (as well as keeping skills up (1) which leads
to better results (2))

but...

 if you were hunting for a job, would you follow the technology stack
and hang the industry it's used in? Keep in mind the further you
progress through the ranks, the less important specific technology
becomes as you need to manage outcomes and what the technology has to
do as business needs change/grow (as Gary Menzel realised - and
planned for - a couple of years ago).

or would you follow the path of the industry you know well and that
you can apply your skills and domain knowledge into and then use the
technology to enable outcomes?

Idealy you'd seek one that would do both ... but as I'm finding,
they're hard to come by.






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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Joel Cass]

Whoa. You fall asleep for a couple of days and this happens.

Strongly agree with Scott and Kay. Don't lock yourself into CF. It's
very good but there are newer and (should I say) better technologies out
there.

However, the web has not changed much. Sure there's all the hype with
web 2.0, 2.0.1, 3.0 etc etc but it's still just HTML displayed in a
browser. Even "rich media" tools like flex don't do much more than HTML
does right now.

Get into the wider web community - definitely. Try coding with another
language for a while and get out into the wider community. It might put
some of your worries to ease.

Most likely Adobe knows they have a niche and they will probably destroy
CF in the end (just download the latest version of reader to see where
they're going - less features, more bugs). Perhaps the recruiter has a
point.

But think of all the time you all spent writing messages on this forum.
Eventually they will be lost, all meaningless, like chasing the wind.
Meanwhile you could have installed PHP or started to read up on .net or
java.


I'm just disgruntled because I'm studying .net at the moment and using
the PDF version to read the book on my laptop. Downloaded the latest
reader yesterday (it was an "important" security update of 22.4 mb!),
and now it crashes every 5 pages and I have to reopen, redo all my
settings (everything is hidden by default and it doesn't save settings
even on a graceful exit), find the page I was up to, and keep going.
Personally, this is not encouraging to see in an Adobe "flagship"
product.


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of barry.b
Sent: Monday, 14 April 2008 10:28 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
FUD from them too?




> Barry:Would you say it's been happening for what? 5+ years now?

I'd really like to respond to this chapter-and-verse at the moment but
I'm really pushed for time...

but I will say that (IMHO) Kay Smoljak is right on the money: The
issue isn't a religious war. it's not good Vs evil or red team  Vs
blue - unless you're a shareholder of Adobe or Microsoft (hey Scott -
shares in the company are part of your package, yes?)

for everyone else, a particular technology is an enabler. That's all.

Sure people have their preference - and I came kicking and screaming
into CF late 2002 (CF6.0/Redsky/CF6.1), grudgingly used it then like
it and stayed for the ride. Meanwhile I'd been using ASP (classic) and
had been part of the ASP.NET public beta up to it's release where I
deamed ASP.NET 1.0 a pile of rubbish and turned my back on it (it was
the infinite post-backs as one reason that killed it for me although I
really like some things in C# - it has what Java should)

but it's noteworthy to see that when I was a CF-noob, "old hands" like
Gary Menzel were active in the community - now Vaughn and the guys are
migrating (have migrated?) to Java and are nowhere to be seen in the
CF world. People move on, situations change.

"ColdFusion - he's just this guy, y'know?"

don't get me wrong, for mine, CF is the best darn bang-for-buck I can
get. But if you asked a question of which web-based technology is
"best" then you'll not get one single answer: as Sean Corfield often
says "it depends!". there's still a ton of dynamic web apps written in
VBScript (ASP classic - depricated in 2003). Ford Vs Holden, anyone?

and, leaning heavily on the capabilities of the little Flash Player,
Adobe are starting to get together an interesting technology stack
suitable for the "digital media" world (although the mess of LiveCycle
with DS and ES, et al, needs to be sorted - too confusing for
managers). It makes the ownership of CF by Adobe that (seems to start
to) have good flow-on effects.

so when it comes to job choices, platform can a modifier. ie: you take
a dev job with a CF flavour.

1) enabler: the technology becomes the vehicle for people to do things
better/faster, etc.
2) enabler: the technology is a joy to use so it gives job
statisfaction doing things.
3) enabler: the technology has the platform longevity to keep you
doing this for as long as you need it to.

and I have no doubt that coding CF could give me both for many years
to come. I support the technology to do my bit in it thriving into the
future. I have no shares in Adobe so the long-term outcome for me is
purely future employment.

which is why I try and get people interested in CFUG's, etc - being
active in ensuring the platform has logevity and providing job
security by platform security, instead of being a passenger blown
along with the winds... (as well as keeping skills up (1) which leads
to better results (2))

but...

 if you were hunting for a job, would you follow the techno

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[barry.b]

> Barry:Would you say it's been happening for what? 5+ years now?

I'd really like to respond to this chapter-and-verse at the moment but
I'm really pushed for time...

but I will say that (IMHO) Kay Smoljak is right on the money: The
issue isn't a religious war. it's not good Vs evil or red team  Vs
blue - unless you're a shareholder of Adobe or Microsoft (hey Scott -
shares in the company are part of your package, yes?)

for everyone else, a particular technology is an enabler. That's all.

Sure people have their preference - and I came kicking and screaming
into CF late 2002 (CF6.0/Redsky/CF6.1), grudgingly used it then like
it and stayed for the ride. Meanwhile I'd been using ASP (classic) and
had been part of the ASP.NET public beta up to it's release where I
deamed ASP.NET 1.0 a pile of rubbish and turned my back on it (it was
the infinite post-backs as one reason that killed it for me although I
really like some things in C# - it has what Java should)

but it's noteworthy to see that when I was a CF-noob, "old hands" like
Gary Menzel were active in the community - now Vaughn and the guys are
migrating (have migrated?) to Java and are nowhere to be seen in the
CF world. People move on, situations change.

"ColdFusion - he's just this guy, y'know?"

don't get me wrong, for mine, CF is the best darn bang-for-buck I can
get. But if you asked a question of which web-based technology is
"best" then you'll not get one single answer: as Sean Corfield often
says "it depends!". there's still a ton of dynamic web apps written in
VBScript (ASP classic - depricated in 2003). Ford Vs Holden, anyone?

and, leaning heavily on the capabilities of the little Flash Player,
Adobe are starting to get together an interesting technology stack
suitable for the "digital media" world (although the mess of LiveCycle
with DS and ES, et al, needs to be sorted - too confusing for
managers). It makes the ownership of CF by Adobe that (seems to start
to) have good flow-on effects.

so when it comes to job choices, platform can a modifier. ie: you take
a dev job with a CF flavour.

1) enabler: the technology becomes the vehicle for people to do things
better/faster, etc.
2) enabler: the technology is a joy to use so it gives job
statisfaction doing things.
3) enabler: the technology has the platform longevity to keep you
doing this for as long as you need it to.

and I have no doubt that coding CF could give me both for many years
to come. I support the technology to do my bit in it thriving into the
future. I have no shares in Adobe so the long-term outcome for me is
purely future employment.

which is why I try and get people interested in CFUG's, etc - being
active in ensuring the platform has logevity and providing job
security by platform security, instead of being a passenger blown
along with the winds... (as well as keeping skills up (1) which leads
to better results (2))

but...

 if you were hunting for a job, would you follow the technology stack
and hang the industry it's used in? Keep in mind the further you
progress through the ranks, the less important specific technology
becomes as you need to manage outcomes and what the technology has to
do as business needs change/grow (as Gary Menzel realised - and
planned for - a couple of years ago).

or would you follow the path of the industry you know well and that
you can apply your skills and domain knowledge into and then use the
technology to enable outcomes?

Idealy you'd seek one that would do both ... but as I'm finding,
they're hard to come by.



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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

You Win :)



On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:18 AM, charlie arehart <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Oh it's trailing off, all right, and honestly I don't see the point in
> contributing any further to the headaches which surely must be arising from
> this.
>
>
>
> Let me state for the record: I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm not even anti
> ASP.NET <http://asp.net/>. I'm also not anti-Scott.
>
>
>
> I was just refuting specific statements. I leave them to stand for all to
> judge. This, too, is not a zero-sum debate.
>
>
>
> /charlie
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:32 AM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
> Charlie,
>
>
>
> Here we go.. I'm going to keep this onpoint as best I can as I feel it's
> trailing off.
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

Oh it's trailing off, all right, and honestly I don't see the point in
contributing any further to the headaches which surely must be arising from
this. 

 

Let me state for the record: I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm not even anti
ASP.NET. I'm also not anti-Scott. 

 

I was just refuting specific statements. I leave them to stand for all to
judge. This, too, is not a zero-sum debate.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:32 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Charlie,

 

Here we go.. I'm going to keep this onpoint as best I can as I feel it's
trailing off. 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Gareth Edwards]

 standpoint but also from a
community perspective are in place and healthy. I'd rather
Microsoftee's (staff/community) collaborate more than simply setup
borders and continue to breed elements of distrust. We have 1000's of
brands, millions of customers and so many intersecting points that it's
ludicrous for us to draw battle lines and attack competing communities
with underhanded tactics.
   
  We have enough trust issues in this companies past, we don't end
to create more for the future. It's a different culture than it was 5
years ago, reject or accept that, its up to you. No one person is/can
be a single brand in todays IT environment.
 
   
   
  On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 10:35 PM, charlie
arehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  


Like I
said, "I'm not looking to pick a fight", so the cracking knuckles don't
scare me. :-) Look, I'm just replying to the points made. You don't
need to see each response as a challenge to "put 'em up", literally or
figuratively. Like I just said to Kai, I wasn't disagreeing with
everything you said, just the specific things I replied to. And again,
I feel I must clarify again. (You ask about FUD, which is engendering
"fear, uncertainty, and doubt", for  the kids watching at home. This is
perhaps a perfect example of it. You state things you feel to be true,
from a lofty position, when they're not quite, and when they have a
tendency to assert cause for concern when there may be none.)
 
As for
the AdobeCommunityExpert/MVP issue, you say, "I wouldn't consider
having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the yearly membership",
t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it." Are you saying that's
your perception of the CE program? Again I'll argue that you're
misinformed (which is a shame, when you carry your confidence so
highly). The CE program offers many benefits, and none of them involve
pizza and beer.  One can find more about the program, including
benefits, at http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/faq.html.
 
You also
say, "Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the world,
being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit", as if that's in
stark opposition to anything Adobe offers. Yet, again, it's not. There
will be an Adobe Community Summit at Adobe HQ (the 3rd
annual) May 12-16. We, too, will have access to Adobe engineers,
product managers, and executives, with the same chance to ask hard
questions and get hard answers, and to be educated to take knowledge
back to the community. Just don't think things are quite as
apples/oranges as you want to make them out to be.
 
As for
one of your concluding remarks, "if there is a problem here, you've
just fixed them in one email chad [I think you meant me, Charlie], yet
if there isn't well you've just strengthened the entire proposition of
Coldfusion - but what if you're wrong."  I guess I'll take the
presumption that I'm not, so perhaps I've fixed things in one email.
Good. :-) But I don't suspect you (or even others here) really think
that. I'm cool with that. Again, not looking to "win" the argument.
Just debating specific points.
 
You then
say, "The point is, CF community used to be more vibrant than it is
today, and not much in the technology or ownership has changed." Wow,
talk about sweeping generalizations. Again, that's FUD. You can't
defend that assertion. The first is debatable, and the second seems
just, well, again, misinfoirmed.  You say "I follow CF8 closely as well
as CF9". Well, when so many think CF 8 has made great strides and it's
been pretty unanimously praised, this again just comes across as
throwing water on an oil fire. 
 
As for,
"Be clear however, there are more folks out there using alternative
langaues today than Coldfusion." Again, as I said to Kai, this just
isn't a problem for me. There are more people in the US than in
Australia. More bottles of Bud are sold worldwide than VB. So what? IT
isn't a zero-sum game. There's no one winner. Those who think there has
to be are setting themselves up for heartburn (if they're feeling left
out) or over-confidence (if they're on the winning side). I'm simply
arguing that things aren't quite as bad as some would make them out to
be.
 
Like
you, I'm just putting thoughts on the table. People can take them or
leave them.
 
/charlie
 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:48 AM


To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"?
... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

Like I said, "I'm not looking to pick a fight", so the cracking knuckles
don't scare me. :-) Look, I'm just replying to the points made. You don't
need to see each response as a challenge to "put 'em up", literally or
figuratively. Like I just said to Kai, I wasn't disagreeing with everything
you said, just the specific things I replied to. And again, I feel I must
clarify again. (You ask about FUD, which is engendering "fear, uncertainty,
and doubt", for  the kids watching at home. This is perhaps a perfect
example of it. You state things you feel to be true, from a lofty position,
when they're not quite, and when they have a tendency to assert cause for
concern when there may be none.)

 

As for the AdobeCommunityExpert/MVP issue, you say, "I wouldn't consider
having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the yearly membership",
t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it." Are you saying that's your
perception of the CE program? Again I'll argue that you're misinformed
(which is a shame, when you carry your confidence so highly). The CE program
offers many benefits, and none of them involve pizza and beer.  One can find
more about the program, including benefits, at
http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/faq.html.

 

You also say, "Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the
world, being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit", as if that's
in stark opposition to anything Adobe offers. Yet, again, it's not. There
will be an Adobe Community Summit at Adobe HQ (the 3rd annual) May 12-16.
We, too, will have access to Adobe engineers, product managers, and
executives, with the same chance to ask hard questions and get hard answers,
and to be educated to take knowledge back to the community. Just don't think
things are quite as apples/oranges as you want to make them out to be.

 

As for one of your concluding remarks, "if there is a problem here, you've
just fixed them in one email chad [I think you meant me, Charlie], yet if
there isn't well you've just strengthened the entire proposition of
Coldfusion - but what if you're wrong."  I guess I'll take the presumption
that I'm not, so perhaps I've fixed things in one email. Good. :-) But I
don't suspect you (or even others here) really think that. I'm cool with
that. Again, not looking to "win" the argument. Just debating specific
points.

 

You then say, "The point is, CF community used to be more vibrant than it is
today, and not much in the technology or ownership has changed." Wow, talk
about sweeping generalizations. Again, that's FUD. You can't defend that
assertion. The first is debatable, and the second seems just, well, again,
misinfoirmed.  You say "I follow CF8 closely as well as CF9". Well, when so
many think CF 8 has made great strides and it's been pretty unanimously
praised, this again just comes across as throwing water on an oil fire. 

 

As for, "Be clear however, there are more folks out there using alternative
langaues today than Coldfusion." Again, as I said to Kai, this just isn't a
problem for me. There are more people in the US than in Australia. More
bottles of Bud are sold worldwide than VB. So what? IT isn't a zero-sum
game. There's no one winner. Those who think there has to be are setting
themselves up for heartburn (if they're feeling left out) or over-confidence
(if they're on the winning side). I'm simply arguing that things aren't
quite as bad as some would make them out to be.

 

Like you, I'm just putting thoughts on the table. People can take them or
leave them.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:48 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

*cracks knuckles* ..oh it's on Chad, it's on like Donkey Kong! :) hehh.

 

. Adobe CE Program is as I say, Apples vs Oranges.I see firsthand
more benefits in the MVP over Adobe CE and consider it a point of difference
in our offering, now what does that have to do with the current thread.
Simply that the existing model could be improved better, i won't stipulate
exactly how as that's obviously not my job. What I am doing is trying to
tease out some folks within the community whom are wanting change, to start
thinking about the program, looking at what Microsoft MVP offers and even
evolve it further or use it as a benchmark on what not to do, either way,
start the dialogue..

I wouldn't consider having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the yearly
membership", t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it. Being recognised
as a community 

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

Kai, I don't disagree with anything you say, but really none of those points
counter what I'd brought up. Perhaps you thought I was trying to argue
against what you say, but I was just responding to the specific points I
referenced in Scott's post. I wasn't saying I disagreed with everything he
said.

As for the observation that things in A/NZ may be that much different from
in the US, I will say this: I hear this all the time from all over the
world. Everyone thinks things are worse where they are (whether uptake, or
user group participation, etc.), when the truth is (I think) that things are
the same all over. I don't many developers in the community would assert
that there's any significant uptake in CF. Sure, Adobe may say there is a
huge increase in sales, and that may comfort some, but I don't think most
really think that's translating into any *significant* growth in new
developers. It's more simply (I'd think) about existing sites buying the
upgrade (though I could be wrong), and perhaps some percent of new sales. 

Again, I'm not denying what's being said here about what could be done to
increase the size of the CF community. Then again, while I accept that CF is
a much smaller community than either .NET, PHP, or Ruby. I don't let that
trouble me, myself. But I'm not denying the feelings of those who feel
otherwise.

/charlie

-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Kai Koenig
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:28 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


Charlie,

you're right with a few of your remarks and I think no one has
said Scott is totally right, let's all jump ship because MSFT
and .NET is much better anyway :-)

But imho it's reality that the recent and often talked about 
boom in CF8 sales, adoption and cool projects doesn't seem to
have arrived in total (yet) in Australia and New Zealand. I can't





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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

Just a bit.. how embarassement..

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Steve Onnis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> We all know Scott does have a tendency to ramble though
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf
>  Of Chad Renando
> Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:36 PM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD
> from them too?
>
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> I think you may have your threads crossed.  Last time I checked, I was the
> one making the case for cf devers to cross polinate into other languages
> because I couldn't find anyone to support CF apps that come in.  I think
> you
> are aiming at Charlie, the other CH-name-starting-dude.  I dont' know half
> of what you're talking about, but it sounds technical enough where I am
> wanting to take credit 'cause it sounds like technical.  I only know
> projects in, resources to manage, work out, and making the fit in between.
> I are manager now, I are not programmer.
>
> But if you want, I'll have a piece of you on Donky Kong.  You name the
> place, I'll bring the mame.
>
> Chad
> who gets his behind kicked on the level with the bouncy spring things
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > *cracks knuckles* ..oh it's on Chad, it's on like Donkey Kong! :) hehh.
> >
> >
> > Adobe CE Program is as I say, Apples vs Oranges.I see firsthand more
> > benefits in the MVP over Adobe CE and consider it a point of
> > difference in our offering, now what does that have to do with the
> > current thread. Simply that the existing model could be improved
> > better, i won't stipulate exactly how as that's obviously not my job.
> > What I am doing is trying to tease out some folks within the community
> > whom are wanting change, to start thinking about the program, looking
> > at what Microsoft MVP offers and even evolve it further or use it as a
> > benchmark on what not to do, either way, start the dialogue..
> >
> > I wouldn't consider having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the
> > yearly membership", t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it.
> > Being recognised as a community leader is and should be a big deal, as
> > these are the rockstars of your community. If you simply casually
> > throw it out there to random names that have no story attached to
> > them, or no visual clear definitive way to articulate whom they are
> > and what they did to arrive at such point, then how can others look to
> > getting insight into the value being offered by the program in question.
> >
> > Example: Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the
> > world, being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit. In this
> > summit they will have access to various Product Teams and folks from
> various levels.
> > They'll get to ask the hard questions and get the hard answers, which
> > they then take back to their respective regions and distill into what
> > there peers have asked them to find out and so on.  They are the true
> > backbone of a community, the connectors between Corporate and
> > Community as they can/have one on hand praised us but then immediately
> > backhand us for not doing our jobs. Product Teams listen and do what
> > they can so next year at the next Summit, the beatings won't continue..
> >
> > Benefit Realisation.
> >
> > Now Chad, I like you sport, but you've got to be kidding if you assume
> > I don't follow what Adobe does across the board. CF8 vs CF9 is not as
> > important as where is Adobe taking its product range? More to the
> > point, early this week they announced a bit of an executive overall,
> > now what impact will this have and do you fully comprehend what it
> > means for them to have David Mendels out of the picture? (could be
> > nothing, could be something). Point is, where is this ship sailing
> > towards and which direction. Adobe have a lot of fires on many fronts
> > they are putting out piece by piece. Consolidation of products is
> > obvious and a platform, true platform this time round is likely to
> > happen, the question remains however how does Coldfusion play a role
> > in this puzzle.  FYI, I follow CF8 closely as well as CF9.
> >
> >
> > I'll leave the rapid prototyping alone as that could strike a bar
> > fight, as there's some basic truths in this conversation that would be
> > the same as waving a red flag in

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Steve Onnis]

We all know Scott does have a tendency to ramble though 

-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chad Renando
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:36 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


Hi Scott,

I think you may have your threads crossed.  Last time I checked, I was the
one making the case for cf devers to cross polinate into other languages
because I couldn't find anyone to support CF apps that come in.  I think you
are aiming at Charlie, the other CH-name-starting-dude.  I dont' know half
of what you're talking about, but it sounds technical enough where I am
wanting to take credit 'cause it sounds like technical.  I only know
projects in, resources to manage, work out, and making the fit in between.
I are manager now, I are not programmer.

But if you want, I'll have a piece of you on Donky Kong.  You name the
place, I'll bring the mame.

Chad
who gets his behind kicked on the level with the bouncy spring things

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> *cracks knuckles* ..oh it's on Chad, it's on like Donkey Kong! :) hehh.
>
>
> Adobe CE Program is as I say, Apples vs Oranges.I see firsthand more 
> benefits in the MVP over Adobe CE and consider it a point of 
> difference in our offering, now what does that have to do with the 
> current thread. Simply that the existing model could be improved 
> better, i won't stipulate exactly how as that's obviously not my job. 
> What I am doing is trying to tease out some folks within the community 
> whom are wanting change, to start thinking about the program, looking 
> at what Microsoft MVP offers and even evolve it further or use it as a 
> benchmark on what not to do, either way, start the dialogue..
>
> I wouldn't consider having a piece of glass that says "welcome to the 
> yearly membership", t-shirt, pizzas and beer to be the end of it. 
> Being recognised as a community leader is and should be a big deal, as 
> these are the rockstars of your community. If you simply casually 
> throw it out there to random names that have no story attached to 
> them, or no visual clear definitive way to articulate whom they are 
> and what they did to arrive at such point, then how can others look to 
> getting insight into the value being offered by the program in question.
>
> Example: Right now there is a plane loads of MVP's from around the 
> world, being flown into Seattle to meetup at the MVP Summit. In this 
> summit they will have access to various Product Teams and folks from
various levels.
> They'll get to ask the hard questions and get the hard answers, which 
> they then take back to their respective regions and distill into what 
> there peers have asked them to find out and so on.  They are the true 
> backbone of a community, the connectors between Corporate and 
> Community as they can/have one on hand praised us but then immediately 
> backhand us for not doing our jobs. Product Teams listen and do what 
> they can so next year at the next Summit, the beatings won't continue..
>
> Benefit Realisation.
>
> Now Chad, I like you sport, but you've got to be kidding if you assume 
> I don't follow what Adobe does across the board. CF8 vs CF9 is not as 
> important as where is Adobe taking its product range? More to the 
> point, early this week they announced a bit of an executive overall, 
> now what impact will this have and do you fully comprehend what it 
> means for them to have David Mendels out of the picture? (could be 
> nothing, could be something). Point is, where is this ship sailing 
> towards and which direction. Adobe have a lot of fires on many fronts 
> they are putting out piece by piece. Consolidation of products is 
> obvious and a platform, true platform this time round is likely to 
> happen, the question remains however how does Coldfusion play a role 
> in this puzzle.  FYI, I follow CF8 closely as well as CF9.
>
>
> I'll leave the rapid prototyping alone as that could strike a bar 
> fight, as there's some basic truths in this conversation that would be 
> the same as waving a red flag in front of a room of bulls.. suffice to 
> say, make note i used the reference to Ruby on Rails and not ASP.NET, 
> but i could include that as well. In fact play it safe, lets strike 
> that remark from the record shall we :)
>
> Rather then debate blow for blow on my point, i stand by my point's 
> and i put it to you to prove me wrong. In fact, prove them all wrong 
> :) as if there is a problem here, you've just fixed them in one email 
> chad, yet if there i

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Chad Renando]

inds haven't changed.. so
> what has?
> FUD confuses me at times? like what's the agenda? disrupt the Adobe scene so
> it's chaos and you all turn on the company with pitchforks? I mean I could
> do that and there are techniques to do that, but i'd firstly do it via
> layers of abstraction as the key to doing so is to ensure you're not
> directly linked to the riot in question - or it could be a guy, on a
> Saturday assessing the thread and whines about how recruitment companies
> have got it all wrong, how these little press releases all have it wrong,
> again after again, after again. Hell, you can check out Netcraft reports and
> argue they have it all wrong to ...sure i can appreciate it all, but i've
> layed out my opinion, some weak data points in the armour of that which is
> Coldfusion and it's entirely up to you to digest them, reject them or use
> them.
>
> Be clear however, there are more folks out there using alternative langaues
> today than Coldfusion. Why, are they all morons? what elements of success
> can you bring back to the able if you were to explore outside the CF bubble?
> (community, features, lighthouse wins).
>
> FYI, i recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point
>
> In my experience, FUD is 3 letters layed down on the table, when one can't
> find reasons why to like or dislike something.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM, charlie arehart
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm really not looking to pick a fight, but folks keep praising the points
> Scott made, yet I found quite a few that I'd contend:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly
> on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year
> >
> > > because you did an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that
> the independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically
> >
> > > mean you'll get it next year if you decide to get bored with the idea.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's the way the Adobe program works, too. No Adobe CE "popes for life".
> :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what
> recognition do they get and above all what level of support?
> >
> >
> >
> > Adobe CEs do get recognition, both by their acceptance into the program,
> and promotion of them as such by Adobe, themselves, and others. As for
> levels of support, they really get quite a lot, as do UG managers, and these
> benefits come both from Adobe and 3rd parties who have teamed with Adobe to
> offer them things, both that make them more capable and that simply give
> them a form of repayment for their efforts.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the server
> itself but the surrounding ecosystem.
> >
> >
> >
> > Scott, here's where we have to wonder how much you're still following CF
> closely. CF8 has been an amazing release, and plans for CF9 are already
> underway. As for the surrounding ecosystem, Adobe have made it clear that CF
> is at a big part of the integration story for Flex, Blaze, AIR, and other
> leading technologies. Do those get the majority of play? Sure. Is CF always
> mentioned? No, not for now. They also want to reach developers using other
> backends, but CF is always going to be at the center of easy integration
> from those client apps to the back end.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > There is lack of rapid prototyping.
> >
> >
> >
> > Um, really? I guess it depends on what one considers to be rapid
> prototyping, but I think many would say that CF is quite good at this. Sure,
> there are many ways to look at this topic, and it would be easy to trot out
> how much more VS provides to a .Net developer than CFEclipse, DW, or HS/CF
> Studio, but one may argue that CFML's very ease of use and high-level nature
> allows folks to develop quickly even without a fully-evolved IDE.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > There is lack of community spirit.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, your points are well taken, but I don't think most would agree that
> they equate to your conclusion. Indeed, the CF community has long (and yes,
> recently) been regarded highly for its community spirit. I see why some may
> feel that your statements smacked a bit of FUD, but we have to recognize the
> position you're in. You could argue (and indeed are) that we are doing the
> sa

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

he started it... *points*.. all is good. No children or animals were hurt in
the process of making this thread, although I did stub my toe whilst trying
to turn on my computer just then.. nice one Barry.. i blame you..

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:38 PM, Barry Beattie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> struth!
>
> I started this thread a couple of days ago to highlight the irony in a
> conversation with a recruiter. next thing you know incendiary bombs
> are being thrown from all quarters.
>
> well - just to add fuel to the fire...  one interesting project I'm
> looking at - teaching and learning systems/distance education
> (leveraging my domain knowledge) 
>
> ... turns out to be a .NET project...
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Barry Beattie]

struth!

I started this thread a couple of days ago to highlight the irony in a
conversation with a recruiter. next thing you know incendiary bombs
are being thrown from all quarters.

well - just to add fuel to the fire...  one interesting project I'm
looking at - teaching and learning systems/distance education
(leveraging my domain knowledge) 

... turns out to be a .NET project...

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

 they all morons? what elements of success
can you bring back to the able if you were to explore outside the CF bubble?
(community, features, lighthouse wins).

FYI, i recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point

In my experience, FUD is 3 letters layed down on the table, when one
can't find reasons why to like or dislike something.




On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM, charlie arehart <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  I'm really not looking to pick a fight, but folks keep praising the
> points Scott made, yet I found quite a few that I'd contend:
>
>
>
> > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly
> on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year
>
> > because you did an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that
> the independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically
>
> > mean you'll get it next year if you decide to get bored with the idea.
>
>
>
> That's the way the Adobe program works, too. No Adobe CE "popes for life".
> :-)
>
>
>
> > whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what
> recognition do they get and above all what level of support?
>
>
>
> Adobe CEs do get recognition, both by their acceptance into the program,
> and promotion of them as such by Adobe, themselves, and others. As for
> levels of support, they really get quite a lot, as do UG managers, and these
> benefits come both from Adobe and 3rd parties who have teamed with Adobe
> to offer them things, both that make them more capable and that simply give
> them a form of repayment for their efforts.
>
>
>
> > where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the server
> itself but the surrounding ecosystem.
>
>
>
> Scott, here's where we have to wonder how much you're still following CF
> closely. CF8 has been an amazing release, and plans for CF9 are already
> underway. As for the surrounding ecosystem, Adobe have made it clear that CF
> is at a big part of the integration story for Flex, Blaze, AIR, and other
> leading technologies. Do those get the majority of play? Sure. Is CF always
> mentioned? No, not for now. They also want to reach developers using other
> backends, but CF is always going to be at the center of easy integration
> from those client apps to the back end.
>
>
>
> > There is lack of rapid prototyping.
>
>
>
> Um, really? I guess it depends on what one considers to be rapid
> prototyping, but I think many would say that CF is quite good at this. Sure,
> there are many ways to look at this topic, and it would be easy to trot out
> how much more VS provides to a .Net developer than CFEclipse, DW, or HS/CF
> Studio, but one may argue that CFML's very ease of use and high-level nature
> allows folks to develop quickly even without a fully-evolved IDE.
>
>
>
> > There is lack of community spirit.
>
>
>
> Well, your points are well taken, but I don't think most would agree that
> they equate to your conclusion. Indeed, the CF community has long (and yes,
> recently) been regarded highly for its community spirit. I see why some may
> feel that your statements smacked a bit of FUD, but we have to recognize the
> position you're in. You could argue (and indeed are) that we are doing the
> same. This discussion is walking a fine line between a circle jerk and a bar
> fight, and we need to avoid it degrading into either. Again, I'm not looking
> to pick a fight. Just offering some contrary thought.
>
>
>
> /charlie
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2008 8:42 PM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
> The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
> their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
> outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
> agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
> decide to get bored with the idea.
>
>
>
> It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom
> are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do
> they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to
> mind a lot when I think of this).
>
>
>
> I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my
> boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one
> topic.
>
>
>
> Suffic

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Rae Buerckner]

>>But imho it's reality that the recent and often talked about
boom in CF8 sales, adoption and cool projects doesn't seem to
have arrived in total (yet) in Australia and New Zealand. I can't
proof that with any figures, but I just need to see how many of
our Flex clients and inquiries for Flex work (in those cases
they're just asking for client development) sit on top of CF.
It's the vast, really the vast minority and it seems to be perception
a few people are having.>>

Watch this space Kai, I'm working on it real hard down here in Canberra,
expect to see a big in CF due to SOA implementations of LiveCycle ES as a
whole of Government initiative :)

R

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kai Koenig]

Charlie,

you're right with a few of your remarks and I think no one has
said Scott is totally right, let's all jump ship because MSFT
and .NET is much better anyway :-)

But imho it's reality that the recent and often talked about 
boom in CF8 sales, adoption and cool projects doesn't seem to
have arrived in total (yet) in Australia and New Zealand. I can't
proof that with any figures, but I just need to see how many of
our Flex clients and inquiries for Flex work (in those cases
they're just asking for client development) sit on top of CF.
It's the vast, really the vast minority and it seems to be perception
a few people are having.

I acknowledge that Adobe (as a corporate or even as the platform
team) sees CF as part of the central ecosystem and as an integration
hub. But let's make a step aside here from being really heaviliy
involved into the whole Adobe ecosystem, knowing a lot of people
in Adobe and let's have a look at a) an average web developer in the 
average web development shop. Or at b) a self-employed contractor 
who's after 3-12 months jobs here in New Zealand. 

A's company bosses decide to become a .NET shop - easy as: A retrains
in .NET or PHP etc. because A might not care as long as the salary is 
coming in. And anyway, A probably doesn't care about AIR, Flex and 
particularly not BlazeDS or LC and they just develop POWS (Plain old 
web sites).

B would actually have a hard time finding any domestic contract work 
in NZ, where as it would be as easy as to get paid very nice and high 
hourly rates after retraining in .NET or Java. So - guess what this 
person's decision would be.

Really, most people are not interested what some platform strategists
in the US consider CF to be. They want to do web development, full stop.
If they're having the perception they could better do that in PHP or
easier in .NET, they won't hesitate to move away. And really - with
Adobe positioning (as you've said yourself and I agree this approach
makes a lot of sense) their RIA platform to be server-neutral, it's 
even easier "not" to adopt ColdFusion. I'm really not bitching, CF is
great and I live off it for a good part of my income, but the domestic
trend in the region for CF seems to be neutral at best.

I guess what I'm saying here is that a lot comes down to perception
of a product. Also Adobe US as a corporate needs to understand that the 
rest of the world does not work in a way as the US market appears to 
be ticking along -> Actually this is something also Macromedia used 
to have a big issue with and from my experience this particular issue 
here in ANZ is very similar to CF's standing in Germany. I do acknowledge
that Australia and NZ are small markets compared to the US, and that
any investment from a vendor's end has to be well thought of and must
prove worthwile from an financial point of view.

Cheers,
Kai




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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

I'm really not looking to pick a fight, but folks keep praising the points
Scott made, yet I found quite a few that I'd contend:

 

> The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year 

> because you did an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that
the independent body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically 

> mean you'll get it next year if you decide to get bored with the idea.

 

That's the way the Adobe program works, too. No Adobe CE "popes for life".
:-)

 

> whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what
recognition do they get and above all what level of support? 

 

Adobe CEs do get recognition, both by their acceptance into the program, and
promotion of them as such by Adobe, themselves, and others. As for levels of
support, they really get quite a lot, as do UG managers, and these benefits
come both from Adobe and 3rd parties who have teamed with Adobe to offer
them things, both that make them more capable and that simply give them a
form of repayment for their efforts.

 

> where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the server
itself but the surrounding ecosystem.

 

Scott, here's where we have to wonder how much you're still following CF
closely. CF8 has been an amazing release, and plans for CF9 are already
underway. As for the surrounding ecosystem, Adobe have made it clear that CF
is at a big part of the integration story for Flex, Blaze, AIR, and other
leading technologies. Do those get the majority of play? Sure. Is CF always
mentioned? No, not for now. They also want to reach developers using other
backends, but CF is always going to be at the center of easy integration
from those client apps to the back end. 

 

> There is lack of rapid prototyping.

 

Um, really? I guess it depends on what one considers to be rapid
prototyping, but I think many would say that CF is quite good at this. Sure,
there are many ways to look at this topic, and it would be easy to trot out
how much more VS provides to a .Net developer than CFEclipse, DW, or HS/CF
Studio, but one may argue that CFML's very ease of use and high-level nature
allows folks to develop quickly even without a fully-evolved IDE.

 

> There is lack of community spirit.

 

Well, your points are well taken, but I don't think most would agree that
they equate to your conclusion. Indeed, the CF community has long (and yes,
recently) been regarded highly for its community spirit. I see why some may
feel that your statements smacked a bit of FUD, but we have to recognize the
position you're in. You could argue (and indeed are) that we are doing the
same. This discussion is walking a fine line between a circle jerk and a bar
fight, and we need to avoid it degrading into either. Again, I'm not looking
to pick a fight. Just offering some contrary thought.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:42 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
decide to get bored with the idea.

 

It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom
are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do
they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to
mind a lot when I think of this).

 

I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my boundaries
as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one topic.

 

Suffice to say the following:

 

. There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the
ranking officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other
languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the
Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?

. There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be
billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other
means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we
made it scale and that product was zero install in January last year.

. There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i
encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is a
large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% loyal
to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom may not
like your technology preferences, but i guarant

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

shhh.. if you let them in on the secret they'll think about putting tinfoil
hats on and then i can't read their minds from HQ..

:)




On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:27 PM, MrBuzzy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It's subliminal :O
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Kai Koenig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > that's not what Scott is doing here at the
> > moment (not this time, LOL :)
>
>
>
>  >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[MrBuzzy]

It's subliminal :O

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Kai Koenig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> that's not what Scott is doing here at the
> moment (not this time, LOL :)

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kevin]

ity shown by folks like Kevin. Stop the madness
> > > now, you're smarter and better than that.
> > >
> > > Like i said, you win no points for blind faith in technology today,
> > > you gain more points for experience in competing technologies. The old 
> > > days
> > > are gone, live in the now...
> > >
> > > Preacher out.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >   Well, I DO fully agree with that.
> > > >
> > > > Microsoft has ALWAYS done everything possible to crush any potential
> > > > competition.
> > > >
> > > > Im sorry to say, This thread is full of BS.
> > > >
> > > > CF is the sleeping giant here. And it scares Microsoft just enough
> > > > to send their preachers out.
> > > >
> > > >On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Well, I don't fully agree with that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *MrBuzzy
> > > > > *Sent:* Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:06 AM
> > > > > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > > > > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ...
> > > > > FFS! not FUD from them too?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with
> > > > > noise, give you a whole lot of crap you don't need.
> > > > >
> > > > > Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general
> > > > > populous will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner
> > > > > saying Windows is dead :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft
> > > > > way' is not the solution for everything (which generally is what 
> > > > > microsoft
> > > > > people will evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured
> > > > > yearly on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year 
> > > > > because you
> > > > > did an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the 
> > > > > independent
> > > > > body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next 
> > > > > year if
> > > > > you decide to get bored with the idea.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make
> > > > > is whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what
> > > > > recognition do they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry
> > > > > Beattie comes to mind a lot when I think of this).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my
> > > > > boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this 
> > > > > one
> > > > > topic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Suffice to say the following:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >- *There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks.* Most of
> > > > >the ranking officers/generals in ANZ are either in management 
> > > > > roles or in
> > > > >other languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are 
> > > > > mentoring
> > > > >the Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
> > > > >- *There is lack of marketing spend.* This doesn't have to
> > > > >be billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing 
> > > > &g

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kai Koenig]

>
> 
>
>The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more and
>promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out there
>and help us out more on this issue as well.
>
> 
>
>But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be discussed
>for the next 5 years and that's when I want to see more jobs for
>Coldfusion developers. But right now what incentive is a prospective
>Coldfusion developer have if there is no job for him/her to go too?
>
> 
>
>Same words, same argument only 5 years later.
>
> 
>
>Andrew Scott
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of charlie arehart
>Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM
>
>To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
>FUD from them too?
>
> 
>
>Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done
>than is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may
>seem like we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are
>indeed some efforts underway.
>
> 
>
>/charlie
>
> 
>
>From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Peter Bell
>Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
>To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
>FUD from them too?
>
> 
>
>And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think
>people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented
>at ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the
>British Computer Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code
>Generation 2007. In each case there are some pretty influential
>developers and in each case I mention the language I use and why I
>choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or Java.
>
> 
>
>Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that
>nobody within the community knows when it's being done!
>
> 
>
>Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint
>getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .
>
> 
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Peter
>
> 
>
>
>
> 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

Kevin,

If you're going to make a stand, then do so with commitment. Firstly,
MrBuzzy stated he hated Microsoft blah blah, to which Andrew stated he
"disagreed with what was stated" which you then followed with - in your own
words - Well, I *DO* fully agree with that.

You even made a point of using capital letters with the "DO" part. Now your
saying you don't hate Microsoft? as i recall .NET = Microsoft and I'm pretty
sure we base a lot of decisions around .NET ;). It wasn't emotional, it was
me be sarcastic (with a smile) and shaking my head at how stupidity
continues to flourish.

endless cycle of points could be made here, the fact is, I've given my
opinion and if outlined what I think are weak points in the reasoning behind
why locally there is likely to be a decline in future. You can put stock in
a Microsoft conspiracy theory, which i find hilarious or you can weigh it
up, make some decisions, work collectively at fixing it and move forward.

either way, i get my pay cheque and won't get promoted as my metrics for my
role don't even have Coldfusion or ASP.NET adoption on it.

How do you like them apples :) (heh, Apple.. get it..)

Note: none of this anything to do with the original thread today.. amazing
how threads evolve in forums...
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hmmm sensitive guy.
> Personally, I love .NET, and develop quite extensively on it.
> I also love JAVA, PHP, ROR.. and many others.
> I also know bashing any single one of these languages is total BS.
> Make sure to call Bill and tell him I already dev in .NET and I am an avid
> MS user.
> This does seem a bit emotional over a simple comment.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > *rolls eyes*..
> >
> > yes that's right, we're so afraid that I secretly joined this list 9+
> > years ago, waited out my time for this point to seize the day. Bill called
> > me last night and stated "Scott, CF is likely to make a comeback, and it's
> > keeping me up at night.. i really need your help on this one pal, can you
> > dig in there, can you do the flip now.. as this is your time, do this and
> > I'll think about promoting you to the next level as by crikey if we can get
> > Kevin switched over to .NET, well everything will fall into place".
> >
> > I mean, how does one make such an ignorant remark and feel good about
> > themselves at the same time? I've never hated a brand, I've been annoyed or
> > ticked off by a brand but never "hated" a single brand. Ignorance continues
> > to flourish.
> >
> > Fact is, I gave some basic truths. If it annoys you fine, if you think
> > retribution is to weigh in on the cliche "windows is dead" argument(s) or
> > attack yet another Microsoft employee, knock yourself out, by all means if
> > that's your answer do so. It still hasn't fixed your initial problem, and
> > attacking or whining about Microsoft or my approach is just a waste of email
> > - i really couldn't care :) (typing this on my weekend may i add)
> >
> > Meanwhile friends i have in the CF local scene, and there are a lot of
> > them, have moved onto other languages (not all .NET? does that mean i
> > should break ties with them now? i mean isn't that a rule or something?) and
> > have unsubscribe from this list - not because of topics like this, but
> > because of ignorant stupidity shown by folks like Kevin. Stop the madness
> > now, you're smarter and better than that.
> >
> > Like i said, you win no points for blind faith in technology today, you
> > gain more points for experience in competing technologies. The old days are
> > gone, live in the now...
> >
> > Preacher out.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I DO fully agree with that.
> > >
> > > Microsoft has ALWAYS done everything possible to crush any potential
> > > competition.
> > >
> > > Im sorry to say, This thread is full of BS.
> > >
> > > CF is the sleeping giant here. And it scares Microsoft just enough to
> > > send their preachers out.
> > >
> > >   On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >  Well, I don't fully agree with that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroup

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kevin]

Hmmm sensitive guy.
Personally, I love .NET, and develop quite extensively on it.
I also love JAVA, PHP, ROR.. and many others.
I also know bashing any single one of these languages is total BS.
Make sure to call Bill and tell him I already dev in .NET and I am an avid
MS user.
This does seem a bit emotional over a simple comment.




On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> *rolls eyes*..
>
> yes that's right, we're so afraid that I secretly joined this list 9+
> years ago, waited out my time for this point to seize the day. Bill called
> me last night and stated "Scott, CF is likely to make a comeback, and it's
> keeping me up at night.. i really need your help on this one pal, can you
> dig in there, can you do the flip now.. as this is your time, do this and
> I'll think about promoting you to the next level as by crikey if we can get
> Kevin switched over to .NET, well everything will fall into place".
>
> I mean, how does one make such an ignorant remark and feel good about
> themselves at the same time? I've never hated a brand, I've been annoyed or
> ticked off by a brand but never "hated" a single brand. Ignorance continues
> to flourish.
>
> Fact is, I gave some basic truths. If it annoys you fine, if you think
> retribution is to weigh in on the cliche "windows is dead" argument(s) or
> attack yet another Microsoft employee, knock yourself out, by all means if
> that's your answer do so. It still hasn't fixed your initial problem, and
> attacking or whining about Microsoft or my approach is just a waste of email
> - i really couldn't care :) (typing this on my weekend may i add)
>
> Meanwhile friends i have in the CF local scene, and there are a lot of
> them, have moved onto other languages (not all .NET? does that mean i
> should break ties with them now? i mean isn't that a rule or something?) and
> have unsubscribe from this list - not because of topics like this, but
> because of ignorant stupidity shown by folks like Kevin. Stop the madness
> now, you're smarter and better than that.
>
> Like i said, you win no points for blind faith in technology today, you
> gain more points for experience in competing technologies. The old days are
> gone, live in the now...
>
> Preacher out.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Well, I DO fully agree with that.
> >
> > Microsoft has ALWAYS done everything possible to crush any potential
> > competition.
> >
> > Im sorry to say, This thread is full of BS.
> >
> > CF is the sleeping giant here. And it scares Microsoft just enough to
> > send their preachers out.
> >
> >   On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >  Well, I don't fully agree with that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> > > Behalf Of *MrBuzzy
> > > *Sent:* Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:06 AM
> > > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
> > > not FUD from them too?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with
> > > noise, give you a whole lot of crap you don't need.
> > >
> > > Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general
> > > populous will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner
> > > saying Windows is dead :)
> > >
> > > Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way'
> > > is not the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft 
> > > people
> > > will evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured
> > > yearly on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because 
> > > you
> > > did an outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the 
> > > independent
> > > body agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if
> > > you decide to get bored with the idea.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is
> > > whom

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Chad Renando]

Reminds me of when I was a kid and got beat up, my mom used to say
they were just jealous.  I love my mom, but she was wrong.  They were
bigger, stronger, quicker, and I was crunched.

Hope you're not considering me in that plural there.  I have thought
about following the preacher career path, but never considered
Microsoft the platform to preach from.

Chad
who has a grad cert in business from Brisbane's Heritage Christian
College as a compromise between preaching and business

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I DO fully agree with that.
>
> Microsoft has ALWAYS done everything possible to crush any potential
> competition.
>
> Im sorry to say, This thread is full of BS.
>
> CF is the sleeping giant here. And it scares Microsoft just enough to send
> their preachers out.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, I don't fully agree with that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of MrBuzzy
> > Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:06 AM
> >
> > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with noise,
> give you a whole lot of crap you don't need.
> >
> > Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general populous
> will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner saying Windows
> is dead :)
> >
> > Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way' is
> not the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft people
> will evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
> their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
> outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
> agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
> decide to get bored with the idea.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom
> are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do
> they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to
> mind a lot when I think of this).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my
> boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one
> topic.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Suffice to say the following:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the ranking
> officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other
> languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the
> Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
> > There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be billboards,
> events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other means. We had
> really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we made it scale
> and that product was zero install in January last year.
> > There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i encourage
> you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is a large IT
> world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% loyal to one
> brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom may not like your
> technology preferences, but i guarantee you, they will respect you as
> professional for looking at theres. Diversity is key, as it forms
> relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles that benefit all. If
> you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG, look at merging or
> colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of their personal time to
> attend these, make them feel its an investment, not a chore.
> > The old days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last 3-5 years. What
> people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years. Cynergy Systems
> for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're announcing our
> support of Silverlight" and they did so because th

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

*rolls eyes*..

yes that's right, we're so afraid that I secretly joined this list 9+ years
ago, waited out my time for this point to seize the day. Bill called me last
night and stated "Scott, CF is likely to make a comeback, and it's keeping
me up at night.. i really need your help on this one pal, can you dig in
there, can you do the flip now.. as this is your time, do this and I'll
think about promoting you to the next level as by crikey if we can get Kevin
switched over to .NET, well everything will fall into place".

I mean, how does one make such an ignorant remark and feel good about
themselves at the same time? I've never hated a brand, I've been annoyed or
ticked off by a brand but never "hated" a single brand. Ignorance continues
to flourish.

Fact is, I gave some basic truths. If it annoys you fine, if you think
retribution is to weigh in on the cliche "windows is dead" argument(s) or
attack yet another Microsoft employee, knock yourself out, by all means if
that's your answer do so. It still hasn't fixed your initial problem, and
attacking or whining about Microsoft or my approach is just a waste of email
- i really couldn't care :) (typing this on my weekend may i add)

Meanwhile friends i have in the CF local scene, and there are a lot of them,
have moved onto other languages (not all .NET? does that mean i should break
ties with them now? i mean isn't that a rule or something?) and have
unsubscribe from this list - not because of topics like this, but because of
ignorant stupidity shown by folks like Kevin. Stop the madness now, you're
smarter and better than that.

Like i said, you win no points for blind faith in technology today, you gain
more points for experience in competing technologies. The old days are gone,
live in the now...

Preacher out.



On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, I DO fully agree with that.
>
> Microsoft has ALWAYS done everything possible to crush any potential
> competition.
>
> Im sorry to say, This thread is full of BS.
>
> CF is the sleeping giant here. And it scares Microsoft just enough to send
> their preachers out.
>
>   On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >  Well, I don't fully agree with that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> > Behalf Of *MrBuzzy
> > *Sent:* Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:06 AM
> > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
> > not FUD from them too?
> >
> >
> >
> > This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with noise,
> > give you a whole lot of crap you don't need.
> >
> > Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general populous
> > will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner saying Windows
> > is dead :)
> >
> > Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way' is
> > not the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft people
> > will evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly
> > on their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
> > outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
> > agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
> > decide to get bored with the idea.
> >
> >
> >
> > It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is
> > whom are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what
> > recognition do they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry
> > Beattie comes to mind a lot when I think of this).
> >
> >
> >
> > I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my
> > boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one
> > topic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Suffice to say the following:
> >
> >
> >
> >- *There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks.* Most of the
> >ranking officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in 
> > other
> >languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the
> >Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
> >- *There is lack of marketing spend.* This doe

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Sorry,

 

Hit the send button to quickly.. This part "This is exactly what I hate
about Microsoft. They blind you with noise, give you a whole lot of crap you
don't need."

 

I think that it is a good idea, you can ignore the noise or you can embrace
it when you need it.

 

But yes Scott made valid points. I said I agreed with him and that it's
number 3 J

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of MrBuzzy
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:28 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Was it this part? "Scott you do make some good points".

I'm happy to retract it.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Well, I don't fully agree with that.




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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Kevin]

Well, I DO fully agree with that.

Microsoft has ALWAYS done everything possible to crush any potential
competition.

Im sorry to say, This thread is full of BS.

CF is the sleeping giant here. And it scares Microsoft just enough to send
their preachers out.

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Well, I don't fully agree with that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *MrBuzzy
> *Sent:* Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:06 AM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
> This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with noise,
> give you a whole lot of crap you don't need.
>
> Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general populous
> will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner saying Windows
> is dead :)
>
> Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way' is
> not the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft people
> will evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
> their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
> outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
> agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
> decide to get bored with the idea.
>
>
>
> It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom
> are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do
> they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to
> mind a lot when I think of this).
>
>
>
> I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my
> boundaries as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one
> topic.
>
>
>
> Suffice to say the following:
>
>
>
>- *There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks.* Most of the
>ranking officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other
>languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the
>Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
>- *There is lack of marketing spend.* This doesn't have to be
>billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other
>means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we
>made it scale and that product was zero install in January last year.
>- *There is lack of diversity.* Folks, we are never one brand and i
>encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is a
>large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% 
> loyal
>to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom may not
>like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you, they will respect 
> you
>as professional for looking at theres. Diversity is key, as it forms
>relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles that benefit all. If
>you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG, look at merging or
>colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of their personal time to
>attend these, make them feel its an investment, not a chore.
>- *The old days are gone. *Who cares what happened in the last 3-5
>years. What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years.
>Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're
>announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because they 
> believed
>in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have countless more stories
>like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' technology weakness is
>tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but ask yourself a simple
>question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the
>server itself but the surrounding ecosystem.
>- *There is lack of rapid prototyping.* Rapid prototyping is
>something more and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't
>produce a solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh up
>what you're doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your horizons
>and understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about quantity. 
> Ruby
>On Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man in the wrong hands,
>and it

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[MrBuzzy]

Was it this part? "Scott you do make some good points".

I'm happy to retract it.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Well, I don't fully agree with that.
>

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Peter Robertson]

It looks like Scott has clearly spent a good deal of time considering
his posts, and if we drill in, his points could be seen as
constructive as easily as not.  Individually, we might or might not
like the whole MS ethos, but we would have to acknowledge that there
may be things of worth to be taken from their community model, given
their market position.  Is there any doubt that CF could benefit from
a better and more concerted community program?  My question then is,
where would the leadership for this come from, the community itself or
from Adobe?

On Apr 12, 11:06 am, MrBuzzy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way' is not
> the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft people will
> evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).
>
.
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Well, I don't fully agree with that.

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of MrBuzzy
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 11:06 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

This is exactly what I hate about Microsoft. They blind you with noise, give
you a whole lot of crap you don't need. 

Using ASP.net and such is a massive assumption that the general populous
will continue to use Windows. There's a few people at Gartner saying Windows
is dead :) 

Scott you do make some good points, however 'going the microsoft way' is not
the solution for everything (which generally is what microsoft people will
evangelize, ie; what you're indirectly doing now).

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
decide to get bored with the idea.

 

It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom
are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do
they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to
mind a lot when I think of this).

 

I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my boundaries
as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one topic.

 

Suffice to say the following:

 

*   There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the ranking
officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other
languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the
Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
*   There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be
billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other
means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we
made it scale and that product was zero install in January last year.
*   There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i
encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is a
large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% loyal
to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom may not
like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you, they will respect you
as professional for looking at theres. Diversity is key, as it forms
relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles that benefit all. If
you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG, look at merging or
colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of their personal time to
attend these, make them feel its an investment, not a chore.
*   The old days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last 3-5
years. What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years.
Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're
announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because they believed
in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have countless more stories
like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' technology weakness is
tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but ask yourself a simple
question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the
server itself but the surrounding ecosystem.
*   There is lack of rapid prototyping. Rapid prototyping is something
more and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't produce a
solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh up what you're
doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your horizons and
understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about quantity. Ruby On
Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man in the wrong hands, and
it sadly does end up in the wrong hands a lot, but the reason why it had a
nice amount of run on the boards was simply because it empowered engineers
to pump out solutions rapidly.
*   There is lack of community spirit. Go to a CFUG? what value does one
get? It's an open ended question. If all folks get is to see a video or
presentation they can view online anyway then what value are you adding to
peoples lives. Whom are you inviting to speak and what value are they
offering? Are you talking to the same people? Is debating on CFAussie really
the right place to do so? and so on... where is your aggregation point for
the CF virgin out there? how does one sound a bell and all flock to a single
rally point and what is that rally point? 

CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the decline really is not the argument here.
Assume for this exercise

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[MrBuzzy]

at rally point?
>
> CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the decline really is not the argument here.
> Assume for this exercise it is, say there entire system is about to crumble
> and FUD is based of truth. Now what would you do differently to change that
> and how would you execute it? I say this as we assume .NET is losing numbers
> daily and we expect it to grow by 20% each year and that's what we do, we
> work hard to make it grow year on year. We never relax as being successful
> is really easy, staying successful, now that is truly an art.
>
> When I joined the CF Community many years ago, CFUG.org.au for one was my
> entrance, the people I meet throughout my career have been remarkable and
> have been close friends. I have a lot of good and bad stories to tell around
> this language and I'll be honest, it's something I hope to instill into the
> Silverlight/WPF community world-wide going forward. I understood what makes
> a technology community great, and it wasn't brand worship or individuals
> within Macromedia/Adobe we should worship, it was more the people around the
> brand/company. Folks you looked up to and respected because they knew xyz
> feature better than any and would drop what they were doing to educate you
> on it.
>
> Anyway, enough my nostalgia, fact is there is a lot of weaknesses in
> Coldfusion right now and seeing a lot jobs for CF is one thing, seeing a lot
> of the same jobs a month later is equally as bad as not seeing jobs for
> Coldfusion. There's a distinction in quality vs quantity there.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 8:09 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > No offence Peter & Charlie,
> >
> >
> >
> > But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market
> > is nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
> >
> >
> >
> > The point I made to Sean was simple, if the sales of Coldfusion is
> > stronger than ever before. Why are the jobs for Coldfusion not increasing?
> > And since that discussion nothing has changed.
> >
> >
> >
> > The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more and
> > promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out there and
> > help us out more on this issue as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be discussed
> > for the next 5 years and that's when I want to see more jobs for Coldfusion
> > developers. But right now what incentive is a prospective Coldfusion
> > developer have if there is no job for him/her to go too?
> >
> >
> >
> > Same words, same argument only 5 years later.
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> > Behalf Of *charlie arehart
> > *Sent:* Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM
> > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
> > not FUD from them too?
> >
> >
> >
> > Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done
> > than is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may seem
> > like we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are indeed some
> > efforts underway.
> >
> >
> >
> > /charlie
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> > Behalf Of *Peter Bell
> > *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
> > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
> > not FUD from them too?
> >
> >
> >
> > And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think
> > people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at
> > ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British
> > Computer Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation
> > 2007. In each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each
> > case I mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP,
> > Ruby, C# or Java.
> >
> >
> >
> > Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that
> > nobody within the community knows when it's being done!
> >
> >
> >
> > Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint
> > getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  > >
> >

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Peter Robertson]

..and, Mark, if it's becoming 'increasingly' difficult, then that
suggests that the demand is growing and that employers already with CF
haven't just given up and moved to other technologies?  Perhaps some
growth is inevitable as the overall market grows?  Is CF holding any
kind of parity in the market overall, or is some absolute growth just
a default in a growing market?  (I dunno, just asking).

I'm in the very fortunate position of making all the tech decisions in
our company, but I still didn't mindlessly select CF, in spite of it
being my dev environment.  If it had still been owned by MM, I may
have had to consider making the leap to .Net, and employing a .Net
coder, as my perception is that MM did next to nothing with it in
marketing terms.  I don't know how much more Adobe really does, but I
have noticed that in business discussions, CF gets taken more
seriously as part of the Adobe stable than previously, "..Macromedia,
who are they?..".  I'm also hopeful that people may discover CF as
they adopt Flex and start looking for the best way to talk to the back
end. As to what I can actually 'do' myself, I've pretty much done it
by committing us to CF for our next growth phase.  I don't know how
many people can get into that sort of position, but suspect a lot of
other CF devs may have actually done the same?

Cheers



Peter Robertson

On Apr 12, 9:27 am, "Mark Mandel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > those who are coldfusion developers can't find work. I have to disagree on 
> > this point. ..Mark
>
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Scott..

 

That's number 3 J

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 10:42 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

The difference between an MVP and Adobe CE is folks are measured yearly on
their efforts. For example, if you make MVP this year because you did an
outstanding job last year (and made the criteria that the independent body
agreed upon) it doesn't automatically mean you'll get it next year if you
decide to get bored with the idea.

 

It's apples for oranges really, but the point I was trying to make is whom
are your/our (still consider myself a cfaussie) leaders, what recognition do
they get and above all what level of support? (ie Barry Beattie comes to
mind a lot when I think of this).

 

I could really go to town on this but I think I'm overstepping my boundaries
as be clear, I'm Microsoft and can't speak my mind on this one topic.

 

Suffice to say the following:

 

*   There is lack of maturity in the local CF ranks. Most of the ranking
officers/generals in ANZ are either in management roles or in other
languages (Java, .NET etc). This is really bad, as whom are mentoring the
Juniors? and more importantly what are they teaching them?
*   There is lack of marketing spend. This doesn't have to be
billboards, events, rally points if you will are marketing amongst other
means. We had really small budget to market Silverlight with last year, we
made it scale and that product was zero install in January last year.
*   There is lack of diversity. Folks, we are never one brand and i
encourage you all to consider going beyond your comfort zones. There is a
large IT world out there whom will not award you points for being 100% loyal
to one brand. Allow yourself to be around other communities whom may not
like your technology preferences, but i guarantee you, they will respect you
as professional for looking at theres. Diversity is key, as it forms
relationship and fosters various adoption lifecyles that benefit all. If
you're not getting the numbers you need with a UG, look at merging or
colloborating with others. People donate 1-2hrs of their personal time to
attend these, make them feel its an investment, not a chore.
*   The old days are gone. Who cares what happened in the last 3-5
years. What people care about is what's happening in the next 3-5 years.
Cynergy Systems for example, told me last year at MIX07 in Vegas "we're
announcing our support of Silverlight" and they did so because they believed
in our roadmap and our vision for the future. I have countless more stories
like this, roadmaps are currency as todays' technology weakness is
tomorrow's strength. I won't preach at you, but ask yourself a simple
question, where do you see Coldfusion heading in 3-5 years? not just the
server itself but the surrounding ecosystem.
*   There is lack of rapid prototyping. Rapid prototyping is something
more and more companies are looking for daily. if you can't produce a
solution in minimal time, whilst your competitor can, weigh up what you're
doing and why you are doing it that way. Broaden your horizons and
understand that it's not about quality, it's mostly about quantity. Ruby On
Rails, can be the most awful solution known to man in the wrong hands, and
it sadly does end up in the wrong hands a lot, but the reason why it had a
nice amount of run on the boards was simply because it empowered engineers
to pump out solutions rapidly.
*   There is lack of community spirit. Go to a CFUG? what value does one
get? It's an open ended question. If all folks get is to see a video or
presentation they can view online anyway then what value are you adding to
peoples lives. Whom are you inviting to speak and what value are they
offering? Are you talking to the same people? Is debating on CFAussie really
the right place to do so? and so on... where is your aggregation point for
the CF virgin out there? how does one sound a bell and all flock to a single
rally point and what is that rally point? 

CF locally "is" or "isn't" on the decline really is not the argument here.
Assume for this exercise it is, say there entire system is about to crumble
and FUD is based of truth. Now what would you do differently to change that
and how would you execute it? I say this as we assume .NET is losing numbers
daily and we expect it to grow by 20% each year and that's what we do, we
work hard to make it grow year on year. We never relax as being successful
is really easy, staying successful, now that is truly an art.

 

When I joined the CF Community many years ago, CFUG.org.au for one was my
entrance, the people I meet throughout my career have been remarkable and
have been close fri

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Scott Barnes]

at makes
a technology community great, and it wasn't brand worship or individuals
within Macromedia/Adobe we should worship, it was more the people around the
brand/company. Folks you looked up to and respected because they knew xyz
feature better than any and would drop what they were doing to educate you
on it.

Anyway, enough my nostalgia, fact is there is a lot of weaknesses in
Coldfusion right now and seeing a lot jobs for CF is one thing, seeing a lot
of the same jobs a month later is equally as bad as not seeing jobs for
Coldfusion. There's a distinction in quality vs quantity there.




On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 8:09 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> No offence Peter & Charlie,
>
>
>
> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market is
> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
>
>
>
> The point I made to Sean was simple, if the sales of Coldfusion is
> stronger than ever before. Why are the jobs for Coldfusion not increasing?
> And since that discussion nothing has changed.
>
>
>
> The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more and
> promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out there and
> help us out more on this issue as well.
>
>
>
> But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be discussed for
> the next 5 years and that's when I want to see more jobs for Coldfusion
> developers. But right now what incentive is a prospective Coldfusion
> developer have if there is no job for him/her to go too?
>
>
>
> Same words, same argument only 5 years later.
>
>
>
> Andrew Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *charlie arehart
> *Sent:* Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
> Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done
> than is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may seem
> like we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are indeed some
> efforts underway.
>
>
>
> /charlie
>
>
>
> *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Peter Bell
> *Sent:* Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
> *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
> FUD from them too?
>
>
>
> And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think
> people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at
> ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British
> Computer Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation
> 2007. In each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each
> case I mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP,
> Ruby, C# or Java.
>
>
>
> Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that
> nobody within the community knows when it's being done!
>
>
>
> Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint
> getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .
>
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Ok...

Mark, there comes a point in your career that moving to a new company all
the time is not building a solid career. Secondly, our company is heading
into an area that is exciting and going to be a challenge. I don't see
myself a developer for the rest of my life, I am older than most of you.

Being involved is not always just the be all and end all, granted it helps
and I know that if it wasn't for those who have done what they have, Yes
Geoff, Mark, Ray to name more would take forever, has helped us who are
still here. But the problem lies in Adobe more than it does for us, and
getting the product into more faces than just those who are still using it.
And the question is how do they do this, or what could be done about it.

Sales of Coldfusion may be good, but the amount of work that could be done
in Coldfusion in an Enterprise market is so small it is not funny.

Andrew.



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Mandel
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 10:15 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


>
>  What is the point is that me as a developer, has struggled to remain a
>  Coldfusion developer in my work place. For the same reason that this is
>  being discussed, the decision was made a year ago that rather than try to
>  get the resources we need to move forward as a company. That we would
switch
>  to Java, but once that decision was made, there was nothing more I could
do
>  in our company to persuade the powers to be. And in the end after we
>  discussed the pros and cons, it was the best for our company.

Actually there is, you could leave your job and go somewhere else.

I think we've already agreed the if you are a CF developer today
trying to find work, there isn't an issue - so if you really wanted
to, you could move over to another company.

But that's a decision that you have to make, and noone can begrudge
you that, as that's your choice.

>  Chad has already stated the same thing, and I am sure there are many
others.
>  Me I no longer get to decide if Coldfusion is the best tool for the job
any
>  more, and as much as I would like to remain a CF developer I can't in my
>  current position.

Again, if you wanted it THAT badly, you could move.

>
>  Now we all know that there are a lot of companies out there looking for
>  Coldfusion developers, and what percentage are these being redeveloped
>  because the resources are not as good as they should be?

Who knows.  There are also a percentage of companies moving to
ColdFusion as well. It's always going to ebb and flow.

>
>  I don't feel like getting into a debate, because at the end of the day we
>  all can see what is happening.

Ha! Since when * don't * you want to get into a debate? In fact, if
you didn't want to get into a debate, you wouldn't be sending emails
to this mailing list in the first place.

And actually no, you're wrong, we can't ALL see what is happening.

> The question remains, can we turn this around
>  and if so how do we get the companies that are looking for the resources
to
>  get what they need with ease?

'We'?
Okay, what part of the 'we' are you making up? I really would like to
know. Seriously.

I know of a lot of people who are working really hard for the CF
Community, and I know of lots of areas in which they could use some
help, or even areas in which there are not enough people to help out.

If you are really THAT interested in helping out ColdFusion, please do
let me know, I'm sure I can hook you up with someone, or find you
something to do.

That being said, it sounds like you have lots of ideas, so feel free
to pick one and run with it.

>
>  I have already put my hands up as an employee for my company, to offer
our
>  companies services as a Coldfusion developer to anyone who needs help.
But
>  that virtually fell on deaf ears as well, people seem to want that
permanent
>  person. And that is understandable.

So that is the state of affairs at ONE company in Australia.  I'm sure
your sphere of influence is larger than that, no?

Again, I'm not going to deny that there ARE issues.  But when it
starts getting into this hand wringing, 'it's the end of the world as
we know it stuff', and 'This is what I think should be done about CF'
comments, I still think the message is very simple:

If you think CF could be improved in certain areas, help out to make
sure it happens.

GET INVOLVED.

Be at your CFUG Meetings, go to BarCamps (bloody good idea by the way
Gary, I wish I had thought of it sooner), go to webDU, talk to people
about Adobe tech, set up websites to promote CF (learncf.com and
www.coldfusiondeveloper.com.au come to mind o

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

And in a way that is similar to us.

When I started for this company, I had 5 sites I was maintaining in CF. Now
I am responsible for one major Intranet Application. At that time there was
3 of us, 2 Java consultants and myself.

We made the decision that if we as a company wanted to grow, java was the
way to do it. So in 8 months we grew to 26 developers (25 being Java), there
is absolutely no way this would have happened for us as a company if we
remained a Coldfusion house.

That seems to be the reality for a lot of companies, not just our
experience.

Andrew.



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Chad Renando
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 10:06 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


And every 2 years, this board arrives at the same outcome of
diversification of skills.  I will admit that there is value in
specialisation bot as a developer and a studio.  But unless you are
niche or captive, any sort of growth will see a diverse sort of
working coming in the door.

In any given week I will have projects with solutions to be maintained
or developed in php, .asp, .NET, FLEX, Flash, and yes, CF.  By
default, I will look for a resouorce with skills in the native
language of the application.  Because we are a Microsoft house, we
have a visible agenda to migrate over to .NET, but only if it is in
the best interest of the business objectives.  In the case of CF, we
are experiencing situations where the lack of available (eg., schedule
and budget) resources push a redevelopment to aa more accessible
language before it is comfortable for the business.

If the applicants walking through my door had CF as a line item, I
would welcome the opportunity to support existing CF applications, as
I think it's a great language.  If they only had CF, I wouldn't touch
them because I would rather invest in developing technologies with
more opportunity in the market.

Chad
who wouldn't touch the developer either way due to his company's
sexual harrassment policy

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Peter Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  @Andrew,
>
>  I'll have to question that both CF devs can't find work and those with
>  work can't find CF devs. Of course, in a fragmented market with
>  inefficient distribution it is possible for there to be both a
>  shortage of developers and a shortage of work in localized areas. If
>  that really is the case, the solution is simply a more efficient
>  mechanism for associating CF devs to the work that is waiting for them
>  - marketing or building the size of the market isn't the problem at all.
>
>  I don't know enough about the Australian market, but my experience in
>  Australia, the US and the UK is that right at the moment there is
>  pretty strong demand for CF development skills and the lack of good CF
>  devs is the primary issue which is why I know people are looking at
>  ways of getting CF more involved in the education space.
>
>  Best Wishes,
>  Peter
>
>
>
>  On Apr 11, 2008, at 7:22 PM, CyberAngel wrote:
>
>  >
>  > Barry,
>  >
>  > No the raw numbers really can't compare, it is a big indication yes.
>  >
>  > The problem is that and I'll have to say this because it is a catch 22
>  > situation, and the evidence is in what has already been discussed.
>  >
>  > People are having a hard time finding Coldfusion developers, those
>  > who are
>  > coldfusion developers can't find work. So those who can't find the
>  > developers move to something with the resources, and those who can't
>  > get the
>  > work go to where the work is.
>  >
>  > This has been the trend that I have seen for the last 5 years, the
>  > problem
>  > is going to be how to break the cycle.
>  >
>  > Andrew Scott
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > -----Original Message-
>  > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > On Behalf
>  > Of Barry Beattie
>  > Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:18 AM
>  > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>  > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
>  > not FUD
>  > from them too?
>  >
>  >
>  >> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job
>  >> market is
>  >> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
>  >
>  > Andrew, are you talking about raw numbers compared to .NET, Java, PHP?
>  > then yes you're right - the available positions at any one time can't
>  > compare
>  >
>  >
http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/i

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Mark Mandel]

>
>  What is the point is that me as a developer, has struggled to remain a
>  Coldfusion developer in my work place. For the same reason that this is
>  being discussed, the decision was made a year ago that rather than try to
>  get the resources we need to move forward as a company. That we would switch
>  to Java, but once that decision was made, there was nothing more I could do
>  in our company to persuade the powers to be. And in the end after we
>  discussed the pros and cons, it was the best for our company.

Actually there is, you could leave your job and go somewhere else.

I think we've already agreed the if you are a CF developer today
trying to find work, there isn't an issue - so if you really wanted
to, you could move over to another company.

But that's a decision that you have to make, and noone can begrudge
you that, as that's your choice.

>  Chad has already stated the same thing, and I am sure there are many others.
>  Me I no longer get to decide if Coldfusion is the best tool for the job any
>  more, and as much as I would like to remain a CF developer I can't in my
>  current position.

Again, if you wanted it THAT badly, you could move.

>
>  Now we all know that there are a lot of companies out there looking for
>  Coldfusion developers, and what percentage are these being redeveloped
>  because the resources are not as good as they should be?

Who knows.  There are also a percentage of companies moving to
ColdFusion as well. It's always going to ebb and flow.

>
>  I don't feel like getting into a debate, because at the end of the day we
>  all can see what is happening.

Ha! Since when * don't * you want to get into a debate? In fact, if
you didn't want to get into a debate, you wouldn't be sending emails
to this mailing list in the first place.

And actually no, you're wrong, we can't ALL see what is happening.

> The question remains, can we turn this around
>  and if so how do we get the companies that are looking for the resources to
>  get what they need with ease?

'We'?
Okay, what part of the 'we' are you making up? I really would like to
know. Seriously.

I know of a lot of people who are working really hard for the CF
Community, and I know of lots of areas in which they could use some
help, or even areas in which there are not enough people to help out.

If you are really THAT interested in helping out ColdFusion, please do
let me know, I'm sure I can hook you up with someone, or find you
something to do.

That being said, it sounds like you have lots of ideas, so feel free
to pick one and run with it.

>
>  I have already put my hands up as an employee for my company, to offer our
>  companies services as a Coldfusion developer to anyone who needs help. But
>  that virtually fell on deaf ears as well, people seem to want that permanent
>  person. And that is understandable.

So that is the state of affairs at ONE company in Australia.  I'm sure
your sphere of influence is larger than that, no?

Again, I'm not going to deny that there ARE issues.  But when it
starts getting into this hand wringing, 'it's the end of the world as
we know it stuff', and 'This is what I think should be done about CF'
comments, I still think the message is very simple:

If you think CF could be improved in certain areas, help out to make
sure it happens.

GET INVOLVED.

Be at your CFUG Meetings, go to BarCamps (bloody good idea by the way
Gary, I wish I had thought of it sooner), go to webDU, talk to people
about Adobe tech, set up websites to promote CF (learncf.com and
www.coldfusiondeveloper.com.au come to mind off the bat), write OSS
software (it doesn't have to be anything amazing, start with cflib.org
even!), and probably a gazillion other things I can't think of right
now.

You would be amazed at what a little bit of work can accomplish, and
you get to reap the rewards as much as the next CF developer.

Mark

-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Chad Renando]

And every 2 years, this board arrives at the same outcome of
diversification of skills.  I will admit that there is value in
specialisation bot as a developer and a studio.  But unless you are
niche or captive, any sort of growth will see a diverse sort of
working coming in the door.

In any given week I will have projects with solutions to be maintained
or developed in php, .asp, .NET, FLEX, Flash, and yes, CF.  By
default, I will look for a resouorce with skills in the native
language of the application.  Because we are a Microsoft house, we
have a visible agenda to migrate over to .NET, but only if it is in
the best interest of the business objectives.  In the case of CF, we
are experiencing situations where the lack of available (eg., schedule
and budget) resources push a redevelopment to aa more accessible
language before it is comfortable for the business.

If the applicants walking through my door had CF as a line item, I
would welcome the opportunity to support existing CF applications, as
I think it's a great language.  If they only had CF, I wouldn't touch
them because I would rather invest in developing technologies with
more opportunity in the market.

Chad
who wouldn't touch the developer either way due to his company's
sexual harrassment policy

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Peter Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  @Andrew,
>
>  I'll have to question that both CF devs can't find work and those with
>  work can't find CF devs. Of course, in a fragmented market with
>  inefficient distribution it is possible for there to be both a
>  shortage of developers and a shortage of work in localized areas. If
>  that really is the case, the solution is simply a more efficient
>  mechanism for associating CF devs to the work that is waiting for them
>  - marketing or building the size of the market isn't the problem at all.
>
>  I don't know enough about the Australian market, but my experience in
>  Australia, the US and the UK is that right at the moment there is
>  pretty strong demand for CF development skills and the lack of good CF
>  devs is the primary issue which is why I know people are looking at
>  ways of getting CF more involved in the education space.
>
>  Best Wishes,
>  Peter
>
>
>
>  On Apr 11, 2008, at 7:22 PM, CyberAngel wrote:
>
>  >
>  > Barry,
>  >
>  > No the raw numbers really can't compare, it is a big indication yes.
>  >
>  > The problem is that and I'll have to say this because it is a catch 22
>  > situation, and the evidence is in what has already been discussed.
>  >
>  > People are having a hard time finding Coldfusion developers, those
>  > who are
>  > coldfusion developers can't find work. So those who can't find the
>  > developers move to something with the resources, and those who can't
>  > get the
>  > work go to where the work is.
>  >
>  > This has been the trend that I have seen for the last 5 years, the
>  > problem
>  > is going to be how to break the cycle.
>  >
>  > Andrew Scott
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > -Original Message-
>  > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > On Behalf
>  > Of Barry Beattie
>  > Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:18 AM
>  > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>  > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!
>  > not FUD
>  > from them too?
>  >
>  >
>  >> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job
>  >> market is
>  >> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
>  >
>  > Andrew, are you talking about raw numbers compared to .NET, Java, PHP?
>  > then yes you're right - the available positions at any one time can't
>  > compare
>  >
>  > 
> http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=coldfusion
>  > &searchfrom=quick
>  >
>  > but with such low numbers (both of available developers and of
>  > positions available)  small fluctuations impact greatly - businesses
>  > not finding CF  people and therefore going elsewhere is one concern in
>  > such conditions.
>  >
>  > having said that, the project I'm now finishing off certainly wasn't
>  > origionally written by an experianced CF developer...
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > >
>
>
>  >
>

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Peter,

That's the issue, well as far as I see it anyway. And I made this same
statement 5 years ago as well.

I am coming into the market for a job, I want to be a developer so what do I
look at for my career. As soon as you look at the job market, the amount of
positions is going to determine that for me. If I see a hundred in php, .Net
and java and see 2-3 in Coldfusion am I going to pick up Coldfusion and make
a career out of it. Of course not, I need to know that if that company folds
or something happens beyond my control I am safe to find another job.

Coldfusion is lacking that and has done so for too many years. After the Dot
Com boom, the job market was flooded with developers looking for work and
lack of jobs and that meant a lot of people I knew that had been Coldfusion
developers are now Java or .Net developers.

It's a catch 22 situation, that we all seem to agree upon at the moment.

Andrew.



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:46 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


@Andrew,

I'll have to question that both CF devs can't find work and those with  
work can't find CF devs. Of course, in a fragmented market with  
inefficient distribution it is possible for there to be both a  
shortage of developers and a shortage of work in localized areas. If  
that really is the case, the solution is simply a more efficient  
mechanism for associating CF devs to the work that is waiting for them  
- marketing or building the size of the market isn't the problem at all.

I don't know enough about the Australian market, but my experience in  
Australia, the US and the UK is that right at the moment there is  
pretty strong demand for CF development skills and the lack of good CF  
devs is the primary issue which is why I know people are looking at  
ways of getting CF more involved in the education space.

Best Wishes,
Peter

On Apr 11, 2008, at 7:22 PM, CyberAngel wrote:

>
> Barry,
>
> No the raw numbers really can't compare, it is a big indication yes.
>
> The problem is that and I'll have to say this because it is a catch 22
> situation, and the evidence is in what has already been discussed.
>
> People are having a hard time finding Coldfusion developers, those  
> who are
> coldfusion developers can't find work. So those who can't find the
> developers move to something with the resources, and those who can't  
> get the
> work go to where the work is.
>
> This has been the trend that I have seen for the last 5 years, the  
> problem
> is going to be how to break the cycle.
>
> Andrew Scott
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On Behalf
> Of Barry Beattie
> Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:18 AM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!  
> not FUD
> from them too?
>
>
>> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job  
>> market is
>> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
>
> Andrew, are you talking about raw numbers compared to .NET, Java, PHP?
> then yes you're right - the available positions at any one time can't
> compare
>
>
http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=coldfusion
> &searchfrom=quick
>
> but with such low numbers (both of available developers and of
> positions available)  small fluctuations impact greatly - businesses
> not finding CF  people and therefore going elsewhere is one concern in
> such conditions.
>
> having said that, the project I'm now finishing off certainly wasn't
> origionally written by an experianced CF developer...
>
>
>
> >




--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

LoL...

Mark,

When I was looking for work a few years ago, the amount of Developers
looking for work was more than what jobs were available. Now it is the other
way around, now even though the amount of work is not what it was 8-10 years
ago, is maybe beside the point.

What is the point is that me as a developer, has struggled to remain a
Coldfusion developer in my work place. For the same reason that this is
being discussed, the decision was made a year ago that rather than try to
get the resources we need to move forward as a company. That we would switch
to Java, but once that decision was made, there was nothing more I could do
in our company to persuade the powers to be. And in the end after we
discussed the pros and cons, it was the best for our company.

Chad has already stated the same thing, and I am sure there are many others.
Me I no longer get to decide if Coldfusion is the best tool for the job any
more, and as much as I would like to remain a CF developer I can't in my
current position.

Now we all know that there are a lot of companies out there looking for
Coldfusion developers, and what percentage are these being redeveloped
because the resources are not as good as they should be?

I don't feel like getting into a debate, because at the end of the day we
all can see what is happening. The question remains, can we turn this around
and if so how do we get the companies that are looking for the resources to
get what they need with ease?

I have already put my hands up as an employee for my company, to offer our
companies services as a Coldfusion developer to anyone who needs help. But
that virtually fell on deaf ears as well, people seem to want that permanent
person. And that is understandable.


Andrew.


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Mandel
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:45 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


How does 'if these developers are fighting for CF' mean that there is no
work?

I'm failing to see the connection, Sorry.

I'm not saying there isn't things that can't be fixed, and we could
sure use the new blood, and various other bits and pieces.

I mean, I've seen you bring up the same issues times and time again,
but the question I guess is - are you in the same boat as those you're
actually complaining about? What are you doing to fight to stay a CF
developer? What are you doing for the community?

And I'm not saying that as a dig, but I'm saying that the solution is
in your hands.  You want a better CF future, you should make one.
Preaching to the choir never did much for anyone.

And that goes generally for anyone who is worried about CF's future.
If you want something to happen, you have to make it happen.

It's actually a pretty simple equation I think.

Mark


On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Mark,
>
>  True, but how many of these developers are fighting to stay a Coldfusion
>  dveleoper?
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf
>
> Of Mark Mandel
>  Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:27 AM
>  To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>  Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not
FUD
>  from them too?
>
>
>
>
> > those who are
>  >  coldfusion developers can't find work.
>
>  I have to disagree on this point.  Every AU CF developer I know is
>  gainfully employed.
>
>  I actually don't see the lack of work in AU.  I agree it's becoming
>  increasingly hard to find developers, but in terms of getting
>  employed, it's a real employee's market out there.
>
>  Mark
>
>  --
>  E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  W: www.compoundtheory.com
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>



-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Peter Bell]

@Andrew,

I'll have to question that both CF devs can't find work and those with  
work can't find CF devs. Of course, in a fragmented market with  
inefficient distribution it is possible for there to be both a  
shortage of developers and a shortage of work in localized areas. If  
that really is the case, the solution is simply a more efficient  
mechanism for associating CF devs to the work that is waiting for them  
- marketing or building the size of the market isn't the problem at all.

I don't know enough about the Australian market, but my experience in  
Australia, the US and the UK is that right at the moment there is  
pretty strong demand for CF development skills and the lack of good CF  
devs is the primary issue which is why I know people are looking at  
ways of getting CF more involved in the education space.

Best Wishes,
Peter

On Apr 11, 2008, at 7:22 PM, CyberAngel wrote:

>
> Barry,
>
> No the raw numbers really can't compare, it is a big indication yes.
>
> The problem is that and I'll have to say this because it is a catch 22
> situation, and the evidence is in what has already been discussed.
>
> People are having a hard time finding Coldfusion developers, those  
> who are
> coldfusion developers can't find work. So those who can't find the
> developers move to something with the resources, and those who can't  
> get the
> work go to where the work is.
>
> This has been the trend that I have seen for the last 5 years, the  
> problem
> is going to be how to break the cycle.
>
> Andrew Scott
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On Behalf
> Of Barry Beattie
> Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:18 AM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!  
> not FUD
> from them too?
>
>
>> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job  
>> market is
>> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
>
> Andrew, are you talking about raw numbers compared to .NET, Java, PHP?
> then yes you're right - the available positions at any one time can't
> compare
>
> http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=coldfusion
> &searchfrom=quick
>
> but with such low numbers (both of available developers and of
> positions available)  small fluctuations impact greatly - businesses
> not finding CF  people and therefore going elsewhere is one concern in
> such conditions.
>
> having said that, the project I'm now finishing off certainly wasn't
> origionally written by an experianced CF developer...
>
>
>
> >


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Mark Mandel]

How does 'if these developers are fighting for CF' mean that there is no work?

I'm failing to see the connection, Sorry.

I'm not saying there isn't things that can't be fixed, and we could
sure use the new blood, and various other bits and pieces.

I mean, I've seen you bring up the same issues times and time again,
but the question I guess is - are you in the same boat as those you're
actually complaining about? What are you doing to fight to stay a CF
developer? What are you doing for the community?

And I'm not saying that as a dig, but I'm saying that the solution is
in your hands.  You want a better CF future, you should make one.
Preaching to the choir never did much for anyone.

And that goes generally for anyone who is worried about CF's future.
If you want something to happen, you have to make it happen.

It's actually a pretty simple equation I think.

Mark


On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:29 AM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Mark,
>
>  True, but how many of these developers are fighting to stay a Coldfusion
>  dveleoper?
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>
> Of Mark Mandel
>  Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:27 AM
>  To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
>  Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
>  from them too?
>
>
>
>
> > those who are
>  >  coldfusion developers can't find work.
>
>  I have to disagree on this point.  Every AU CF developer I know is
>  gainfully employed.
>
>  I actually don't see the lack of work in AU.  I agree it's becoming
>  increasingly hard to find developers, but in terms of getting
>  employed, it's a real employee's market out there.
>
>  Mark
>
>  --
>  E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  W: www.compoundtheory.com
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>



-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Mark,

True, but how many of these developers are fighting to stay a Coldfusion
dveleoper?


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Mandel
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:27 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


> those who are
>  coldfusion developers can't find work.

I have to disagree on this point.  Every AU CF developer I know is
gainfully employed.

I actually don't see the lack of work in AU.  I agree it's becoming
increasingly hard to find developers, but in terms of getting
employed, it's a real employee's market out there.

Mark

-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com



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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Hey Peter,

 

And yes we can't argue that, and people like you, Charlie, Mark, Sean and
yes I could type a long list here. Keep the dream alive.

 

But while thinking about it some more, there isn't enough open source
applications for Coldfusion. I know there is a lot out there, but not enough
in comparison to php, java etc.

 

So maybe this is something else that maybe can be enhanced some more, btw
Geoff I downloaded Farcry 5.0 beta and so far I am very impressed. The ease
of installing, and upgrading has put more faith into the product.

 

Andrew Scott

P.S So looking forward to BlueDragon J2EE open source, knowing how much this
will change the direction CF heads.

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:21 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Hi Andrew,

 

Well, I may not be Australian, but I did just come back from 3 months in
Sydney. Anyway, I wasn't debating the job market or the future of
ColdFusion, I was just mentioning that the ACE program has similarities to
the MVP program and that some CF devs are promoting the technology outside
of the community.

 

Best WIshes,

Peter

 

On Apr 11, 2008, at 6:09 PM, CyberAngel wrote:





 

No offence Peter & Charlie,

 

But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market is
nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.

 

The point I made to Sean was simple, if the sales of Coldfusion is stronger
than ever before. Why are the jobs for Coldfusion not increasing? And since
that discussion nothing has changed.

 

The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more and
promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out there and
help us out more on this issue as well.

 

But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be discussed for
the next 5 years and that's when I want to see more jobs for Coldfusion
developers. But right now what incentive is a prospective Coldfusion
developer have if there is no job for him/her to go too?

 

Same words, same argument only 5 years later.

 

Andrew Scott

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of charlie arehart
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done than
is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may seem like
we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are indeed some
efforts underway.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think people
do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at ooPSLA
'07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British Computer
Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation 2007. In
each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each case I
mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or
Java.

 

Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that
nobody within the community knows when it's being done!

 

Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint getting
the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .

 

Best Wishes,

Peter

 

 

 





 



 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Mark Mandel]

> those who are
>  coldfusion developers can't find work.

I have to disagree on this point.  Every AU CF developer I know is
gainfully employed.

I actually don't see the lack of work in AU.  I agree it's becoming
increasingly hard to find developers, but in terms of getting
employed, it's a real employee's market out there.

Mark

-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Barry,

No the raw numbers really can't compare, it is a big indication yes.

The problem is that and I'll have to say this because it is a catch 22
situation, and the evidence is in what has already been discussed.

People are having a hard time finding Coldfusion developers, those who are
coldfusion developers can't find work. So those who can't find the
developers move to something with the resources, and those who can't get the
work go to where the work is.

This has been the trend that I have seen for the last 5 years, the problem
is going to be how to break the cycle.

Andrew Scott



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Barry Beattie
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 9:18 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?


> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market is
> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.

Andrew, are you talking about raw numbers compared to .NET, Java, PHP?
then yes you're right - the available positions at any one time can't
compare

http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=coldfusion
&searchfrom=quick

but with such low numbers (both of available developers and of
positions available)  small fluctuations impact greatly - businesses
not finding CF  people and therefore going elsewhere is one concern in
such conditions.

having said that, the project I'm now finishing off certainly wasn't
origionally written by an experianced CF developer...



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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Peter Bell]

Hi Andrew,

Well, I may not be Australian, but I did just come back from 3 months  
in Sydney. Anyway, I wasn't debating the job market or the future of  
ColdFusion, I was just mentioning that the ACE program has  
similarities to the MVP program and that some CF devs are promoting  
the technology outside of the community.

Best WIshes,
Peter

On Apr 11, 2008, at 6:09 PM, CyberAngel wrote:

>
> No offence Peter & Charlie,
>
> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job  
> market is nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.
>
> The point I made to Sean was simple, if the sales of Coldfusion is  
> stronger than ever before. Why are the jobs for Coldfusion not  
> increasing? And since that discussion nothing has changed.
>
> The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more  
> and promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out  
> there and help us out more on this issue as well.
>
> But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be  
> discussed for the next 5 years and that’s when I want to see more  
> jobs for Coldfusion developers. But right now what incentive is a  
> prospective Coldfusion developer have if there is no job for him/her  
> to go too?
>
> Same words, same argument only 5 years later.
>
> Andrew Scott
>
>
>
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On Behalf Of charlie arehart
> Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!  
> not FUD from them too?
>
> Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being  
> done than is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and  
> it may seem like we’re making no progress. Good to point out that  
> there are indeed some efforts underway.
>
> /charlie
>
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On Behalf Of Peter Bell
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!  
> not FUD from them too?
>
> And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think  
> people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I  
> presented at ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling  
> Forum, the British Computer Society Software Practices Advancement  
> group and Code Generation 2007. In each case there are some pretty  
> influential developers and in each case I mention the language I use  
> and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or Java.
>
> Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is  
> that nobody within the community knows when it's being done!
>
> Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint  
> getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .
>
> Best Wishes,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> >


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Barry Beattie]

> But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market is
> nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.

Andrew, are you talking about raw numbers compared to .NET, Java, PHP?
then yes you're right - the available positions at any one time can't
compare

http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&Keywords=coldfusion&searchfrom=quick

but with such low numbers (both of available developers and of
positions available)  small fluctuations impact greatly - businesses
not finding CF  people and therefore going elsewhere is one concern in
such conditions.

having said that, the project I'm now finishing off certainly wasn't
origionally written by an experianced CF developer...

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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

 

No offence Peter & Charlie,

 

But you are both non Australians, and here in Australia the job market is
nonexistent and has been that way for 5 years.

 

The point I made to Sean was simple, if the sales of Coldfusion is stronger
than ever before. Why are the jobs for Coldfusion not increasing? And since
that discussion nothing has changed.

 

The perception is still the same, now whether we get out there more and
promote the product is not the issue. But whether Adobe get out there and
help us out more on this issue as well.

 

But till there is a market shift in more jobs, this could be discussed for
the next 5 years and that's when I want to see more jobs for Coldfusion
developers. But right now what incentive is a prospective Coldfusion
developer have if there is no job for him/her to go too?

 

Same words, same argument only 5 years later.

 

Andrew Scott

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of charlie arehart
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 3:19 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done than
is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may seem like
we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are indeed some
efforts underway.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think people
do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at ooPSLA
'07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British Computer
Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation 2007. In
each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each case I
mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or
Java.

 

Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that
nobody within the community knows when it's being done!

 

Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint getting
the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .

 

Best Wishes,

Peter

 



 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[CyberAngel]

Sounds like I was confusing mvp with something else L

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Saturday, 12 April 2008 12:49 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it
would be rather good to adopt. Well it would, I could be subject to more
applications by the company that I currently don't use now, nor am I aware
that they offer. But I don't need to preach that to you Scott.

 

Well, this does sound a little like the Adobe Community Expert program -
http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/

 

There are only about 30 ColdFusion Adobe Community Experts worldwide,
however:

http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/all.html

 

and in Australia, I think it's just Geoff Bowers, Mark Mandell and Andrew
Muller, so it's a little sparser than the Microsoft program . . .

 

Best Wishes,

Peter 

 

On Apr 11, 2008, at 6:13 AM, CyberAngel wrote:





You know Scott.

 

We have had our debates over time, and at the end of the day. I can't even
raise a finger to disagree with you.

 

Your last few posts have been well put, and for someone who technically is
the opposition but I long time poster here has seen and done everything that
most of us has. The trials and tribulations of Coldfusion will more than
likely as Chad said, be debated again 2 years down the track. I got very
heated with Sean Corfield for the reasons that we are talking about here.

 

The attitude was that the sales look good and that was all they cared about,
but the point that got lost is that the jobs slowly disappeared and as I
said to Sean if the sales are good then why aren't developer numbers
increasing, rather than decreasing?

 

I got irate with Sean, because even though I respect his knowledge and who
he is. I lost respect for him at the time because he wasn't looking at the
bigger picture. That was 5 years ago, and now it is being discussed again.

 

Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it
would be rather good to adopt. Well it would, I could be subject to more
applications by the company that I currently don't use now, nor am I aware
that they offer. But I don't need to preach that to you Scott.

 

As for promoting the product, we as a developer can go so far. The rest is
up to the company, and if there is no support from the company then we as a
developer have to do what is right for ourselves. And if that means moving
to .Net or Java then so be it, I must admit I love .Net and rather find Java
a pain in the rear end. But I am forced to use Java in my job now, and there
is nothing more that Adobe can do about that. If the business model was
different, and the engine was open sourced it might have been a different
story. (Sorry to bring that up again) But for those of you who don't know my
boss was a Coldfusion developer, but due to the lack of good developers he
looked past that and looked at the money offerings in work from elsewhere.

 

That is the reality of our company, he would have continued with Coldfusion
but not at its cost and lack of foreseeable future of support of our
products. For web design, Coldfusion will always be seen as the niche
application that does everything but costs your first born.

 

Anyway Scott, from me I wish you all the best. I miss our debatesJ

 

 

Andrew Scott

 

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Friday, 11 April 2008 2:48 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Yes, I did get promoted and thankfully no more Evangelism. I find the
Evangelism scene, political, annoying and if i have one more heated debate
with the competitors over something minor and trivial, I'll retire and go
paint landscapes..

 

My new role is Product Manager in the Rich Client Platform Team
(WPF/Silverlight).

 

Now that's out of the way.

 

Let me share some of my learned experience around technology adoption
(specifically in Australia/New Zealand), and specifically brand awareness.
Right now the benefits around why Coldfusion aren't there, in that they may
technically be there but the fact is there is limited marketing around the
product and not just the product but also the community surrounding the
product.

 

My previous role was an Evangelist, and i bet if i asked anyone on this list
what does that mean, I'd get various answers. An Evangelist role within
Microsoft is simple, help folks with new emerging technology not by ramming
it down their throats, but simply connecting them to people. In that, it
wasn't my job to make you buy ASP.NET or adopt Silverlight, but if you
showed an interest I'd connect you with

[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done than
is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may seem like
we're making no progress. Good to point out that there are indeed some
efforts underway.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think people
do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at ooPSLA
'07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British Computer
Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation 2007. In
each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each case I
mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or
Java.

 

Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that
nobody within the community knows when it's being done!

 

Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint getting
the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .

 

Best Wishes,

Peter

 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Peter Bell]

And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think  
people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I  
presented at ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling  
Forum, the British Computer Society Software Practices Advancement  
group and Code Generation 2007. In each case there are some pretty  
influential developers and in each case I mention the language I use  
and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or Java.

Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is  
that nobody within the community knows when it's being done!

Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint  
getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .

Best Wishes,
Peter

On Apr 11, 2008, at 12:48 PM, charlie arehart wrote:

> I was about to make the same point, Peter, and checked before  
> sending my note to see yours. :-)  Here’s some more I was going to  
> add:
>
> The raw numbers of Adobe Community Experts may not be as high as  
> MVPs, but then the MS pool of developers (across all products) is  
> just that much larger. I suspect the ratio of CF Community Experts  
> to total CF developers may not be that much less than that of .NET  
> MVPs to total .NET developers. Scott, do you know how many .NET MVPs  
> there are, and how many .NET developers total? May be interesting  
> for this discussion.
>
> Anyway, someone may say, “however many CEs there are, why don’t we  
> hear more from them?” Well, how do you know that you don’t? They may  
> not emblazon their sites and emails with their title, and the reason  
> may interest/disturb some:  we can’t just call ourselves ACEs, that  
> acronym was already taken by the Adobe Certified Experts program, so  
> anyone who’s passed a cert can call themselves an ACE. The CE  
> program was introduced after the merger with MM. I don’t doubt that  
> some CEs are reluctant to spell out the title because it seems a  
> little arrogant (just as MVPs may if they had to do the same). I  
> think this challenge a bigger shame and issue than most realize, but  
> I’ve raised it before to no avail.
>
> In any case, we just got through talking here about how there are  
> many in the community who evangelize only within the community, with  
> some asserting that they should do more outside of it. As a CE  
> myself, I can say that there’s no specific push for us to be more  
> involved in evangelism outside our communities. It is as much about  
> supporting the current community.
>
> But then do MVPs really focus on that so much? I don’t know.  Scott?
>
> It’s an interesting discussion, but then like world peace and global  
> warming, it may be bigger than we can solve here.
>
> /charlie
>
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On Behalf Of Peter Bell
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:49 AM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!  
> not FUD from them too?
>
> Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for  
> adobe but it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could  
> be subject to more applications by the company that I currently  
> don’t use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don’t need to  
> preach that to you Scott.
>
> Well, this does sound a little like the Adobe Community Expert  
> program - http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/
>
> There are only about 30 ColdFusion Adobe Community Experts  
> worldwide, however:
> http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/all.html
>
> and in Australia, I think it's just Geoff Bowers, Mark Mandell and  
> Andrew Muller, so it's a little sparser than the Microsoft  
> program . . .
>
> Best Wishes,
> Peter
>
> >


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[charlie arehart]

I was about to make the same point, Peter, and checked before sending my
note to see yours. :-)  Here's some more I was going to add:

 

The raw numbers of Adobe Community Experts may not be as high as MVPs, but
then the MS pool of developers (across all products) is just that much
larger. I suspect the ratio of CF Community Experts to total CF developers
may not be that much less than that of .NET MVPs to total .NET developers.
Scott, do you know how many .NET MVPs there are, and how many .NET
developers total? May be interesting for this discussion.

 

Anyway, someone may say, "however many CEs there are, why don't we hear more
from them?" Well, how do you know that you don't? They may not emblazon
their sites and emails with their title, and the reason may interest/disturb
some:  we can't just call ourselves ACEs, that acronym was already taken by
the Adobe Certified Experts program, so anyone who's passed a cert can call
themselves an ACE. The CE program was introduced after the merger with MM. I
don't doubt that some CEs are reluctant to spell out the title because it
seems a little arrogant (just as MVPs may if they had to do the same). I
think this challenge a bigger shame and issue than most realize, but I've
raised it before to no avail.

 

In any case, we just got through talking here about how there are many in
the community who evangelize only within the community, with some asserting
that they should do more outside of it. As a CE myself, I can say that
there's no specific push for us to be more involved in evangelism outside
our communities. It is as much about supporting the current community. 

 

But then do MVPs really focus on that so much? I don't know.  Scott? 

 

It's an interesting discussion, but then like world peace and global
warming, it may be bigger than we can solve here.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Bell
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:49 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

 

Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it
would be rather good to adopt. Well it would, I could be subject to more
applications by the company that I currently don't use now, nor am I aware
that they offer. But I don't need to preach that to you Scott.

 

Well, this does sound a little like the Adobe Community Expert program -
http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/

 

There are only about 30 ColdFusion Adobe Community Experts worldwide,
however:

http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/all.html

 

and in Australia, I think it's just Geoff Bowers, Mark Mandell and Andrew
Muller, so it's a little sparser than the Microsoft program . . .

 

Best Wishes,

Peter 


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[cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

[Peter Bell]

> Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for  
> adobe but it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could  
> be subject to more applications by the company that I currently  
> don’t use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don’t need to  
> preach that to you Scott.


Well, this does sound a little like the Adobe Community Expert program  
- http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/

There are only about 30 ColdFusion Adobe Community Experts worldwide,  
however:
http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/all.html

and in Australia, I think it's just Geoff Bowers, Mark Mandell and  
Andrew Muller, so it's a little sparser than the Microsoft program . . .

Best Wishes,
Peter

On Apr 11, 2008, at 6:13 AM, CyberAngel wrote:

> You know Scott…
>
> We have had our debates over time, and at the end of the day. I  
> can’t even raise a finger to disagree with you.
>
> Your last few posts have been well put, and for someone who  
> technically is the opposition but I long time poster here has seen  
> and done everything that most of us has. The trials and tribulations  
> of Coldfusion will more than likely as Chad said, be debated again 2  
> years down the track. I got very heated with Sean Corfield for the  
> reasons that we are talking about here.
>
> The attitude was that the sales look good and that was all they  
> cared about, but the point that got lost is that the jobs slowly  
> disappeared and as I said to Sean if the sales are good then why  
> aren’t developer numbers increasing, rather than decreasing?
>
> I got irate with Sean, because even though I respect his knowledge  
> and who he is. I lost respect for him at the time because he wasn’t  
> looking at the bigger picture. That was 5 years ago, and now it is  
> being discussed again.
>
> Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for  
> adobe but it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could  
> be subject to more applications by the company that I currently  
> don’t use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don’t need to  
> preach that to you Scott.
>
> As for promoting the product, we as a developer can go so far. The  
> rest is up to the company, and if there is no support from the  
> company then we as a developer have to do what is right for  
> ourselves. And if that means moving to .Net or Java then so be it, I  
> must admit I love .Net and rather find Java a pain in the rear end.  
> But I am forced to use Java in my job now, and there is nothing more  
> that Adobe can do about that. If the business model was different,  
> and the engine was open sourced it might have been a different  
> story. (Sorry to bring that up again) But for those of you who don’t  
> know my boss was a Coldfusion developer, but due to the lack of good  
> developers he looked past that and looked at the money offerings in  
> work from elsewhere.
>
> That is the reality of our company, he would have continued with  
> Coldfusion but not at its cost and lack of foreseeable future of  
> support of our products. For web design, Coldfusion will always be  
> seen as the niche application that does everything but costs your  
> first born.
>
> Anyway Scott, from me I wish you all the best. I miss our debatesJ
>
>
> Andrew Scott
>
>
>
> From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On Behalf Of Scott Barnes
> Sent: Friday, 11 April 2008 2:48 PM
> To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS!  
> not FUD from them too?
>
> Yes, I did get promoted and thankfully no more Evangelism. I find  
> the Evangelism scene, political, annoying and if i have one more  
> heated debate with the competitors over something minor and trivial,  
> I'll retire and go paint landscapes..
>
> My new role is Product Manager in the Rich Client Platform Team (WPF/ 
> Silverlight).
>
> Now that's out of the way.
>
> Let me share some of my learned experience around technology  
> adoption (specifically in Australia/New Zealand), and specifically  
> brand awareness. Right now the benefits around why Coldfusion aren't  
> there, in that they may technically be there but the fact is there  
> is limited marketing around the product and not just the product but  
> also the community surrounding the product.
>
> My previous role was an Evangelist, and i bet if i asked anyone on  
> this list what does that mean, I'd get various answers. An  
> Evangelist role within Microsoft is simple, help folks with new  
> emerging technology not by ramming it down their throats, but simply  
> connecting them to people. In that, it wasn't my job to make