[IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software  
designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or  
what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet  
there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.  
I used to have trouble hiring at Adobe back in the late 1990s mostly  
due to the high experience and training requirements needed to work  
on software at that level, but that was before there was an influx of  
people and talent into software related products, especially from the  
web. And yet, now it seems that there's an even bigger gap in the  
designer to available job ratio than every before. Everyone I know is  
having trouble filling hiring requirements.

Is it that the job requirements needed to get hired are too high? Not  
enough trained designers? Or is it something only happening in  
Silicon Valley? Browse the job listings and postings everywhere from  
companies in Silicon Valley and it seems we have a distinct lack of  
designers ready to fill all the openings.

Opinions?

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[David Shaw]

Andrei,

I think you are looking at a number of different factors that are
causing this.  From my point of view, I would love to move not only to
the Bay area, but NY or Boston where there are tons of openings.
However, the cost of living there is so outrageously expensive, it
doesn't pay for me to relocate (I've got a house with a reasonable
mortgage, as well as a family to consider).  It might be that many of
the more experienced designers (like myself) see the same issues.  I
would take a huge loss of quality of life if I went.

Just my 2 cents.

David

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software
>  designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or
>  what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet
>  there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.
>  I used to have trouble hiring at Adobe back in the late 1990s mostly
>  due to the high experience and training requirements needed to work
>  on software at that level, but that was before there was an influx of
>  people and talent into software related products, especially from the
>  web. And yet, now it seems that there's an even bigger gap in the
>  designer to available job ratio than every before. Everyone I know is
>  having trouble filling hiring requirements.
>
>  Is it that the job requirements needed to get hired are too high? Not
>  enough trained designers? Or is it something only happening in
>  Silicon Valley? Browse the job listings and postings everywhere from
>  companies in Silicon Valley and it seems we have a distinct lack of
>  designers ready to fill all the openings.
>
>  Opinions?
>
>  --
>  Andrei Herasimchuk
>
>  Principal, Involution Studios
>  innovating the digital world
>
>  e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  c. +1 408 306 6422
>
>
>  
>  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>  List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>



-- 
"Art provokes thinking, design solves problems"

w: http://www.davidshaw.info

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

And I would love to blame the quality of the job posting sites. There search
engines are terrible.

Just now, I search in  Washington DC

Information Architect (86 results - only 3 were for IA)

Interaction Designer (41 results, only 1 for IxD)

Interface Designer (10 results, only one for ID)

Some of the things that come back in results are amazing. Search for IA and
get senior java architect as a high ranked result?




On Feb 20, 2008 2:26 PM, David Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Andrei,
>
> I think you are looking at a number of different factors that are
> causing this.  From my point of view, I would love to move not only to
> the Bay area, but NY or Boston where there are tons of openings.
> However, the cost of living there is so outrageously expensive, it
> doesn't pay for me to relocate (I've got a house with a reasonable
> mortgage, as well as a family to consider).  It might be that many of
> the more experienced designers (like myself) see the same issues.  I
> would take a huge loss of quality of life if I went.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> David
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software
> >  designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or
> >  what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet
> >  there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.
> >  I used to have trouble hiring at Adobe back in the late 1990s mostly
> >  due to the high experience and training requirements needed to work
> >  on software at that level, but that was before there was an influx of
> >  people and talent into software related products, especially from the
> >  web. And yet, now it seems that there's an even bigger gap in the
> >  designer to available job ratio than every before. Everyone I know is
> >  having trouble filling hiring requirements.
> >
> >  Is it that the job requirements needed to get hired are too high? Not
> >  enough trained designers? Or is it something only happening in
> >  Silicon Valley? Browse the job listings and postings everywhere from
> >  companies in Silicon Valley and it seems we have a distinct lack of
> >  designers ready to fill all the openings.
> >
> >  Opinions?
> >
> >  --
> >  Andrei Herasimchuk
> >
> >  Principal, Involution Studios
> >  innovating the digital world
> >
> >  e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >  c. +1 408 306 6422
> >
> >
> >  
> >  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> >  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> >  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> >  List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Art provokes thinking, design solves problems"
>
> w: http://www.davidshaw.info
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>



-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Nasir Barday]

It's not so much a matter of designers disappearing as much as demand
ballooning.

As our work gains momentum and more companies see the value of bringing good
design to their products, it follows that the demand for designers grows as
well. I think we've been noticing an upswing in demand for IxDs over the
past year or so.

It's all relative ...

- N

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

Hi Andrei,

1) This is not just a problem in SV. At the IA Summit there were 19
sponsors all there to recruit heavily and well from my basic survey,
they weren't all that successful. I know we weren't.

2) Like what David Shaw said. You've gotta be nutz, coocoo, and just
insane to leave anyplace including NYC and move to SF unless you were
guaranteed something between $150k-$200k, and HUGE relocation package
upwards of $20-$30k. Having done relocates to both coasts I'm pretty
familiar with what it takes at this point.

3) The value of SV as a nexus is being lost due to well what SV does
... create technological solutions that mitigate the need for
centralized workforces. 8-)

4) Expectations on education and experience are out of whack with the
realities of the workforce. This is my big issue right now. I look at
my ID studio and our hiring practices and what I'm doing in IxD and
things just don't line up. There is no path from junior > senior in
IxD. (yes, I'm sure there are specfic studios that can and are doing
this.) the main reason for this is well, there is no such thing as a
bachelor's degree in IxD, and where they are they are usually called
something like interactive design, etc. AND b/c most of the seniors
are not from any programs there are no corporate synergies with any
schools to do internships, and junior recruiting. Hiring Masters
students is "nice", but again they are aiming too high to build a
corp studio practice around. And b/c no interaction design studio is
thinking this way they aren't investing in their future 3-5 years
out b/c the needs right now are so urgent.

Ok, that was all over the place, but to me the crux of the problem is
there just aren't enough designers to go around   there isn't a
significant educational/career path infrastructure in place for
interaction design.

-- dave 


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Katie Albers]

It's been my experience that in these cases, HR is often to blame. 
There are very few recruiters who understand what you're actually in 
need of so they work from a skills and background checklist and if a 
resume doesn't use the same set of magic words that their list does, 
you lose someone who might actually be a perfect candidate. I know 
that on occasion, I've had hiring managers submit my resume for a 
position and *still* not made it through the screening process.

Good luck.

Katie

At 2:40 PM -0500 2/20/08, W Evans wrote:
>And I would love to blame the quality of the job posting sites. There search
>engines are terrible.
>
>Just now, I search in  Washington DC
>
>Information Architect (86 results - only 3 were for IA)
>
>Interaction Designer (41 results, only 1 for IxD)
>
>Interface Designer (10 results, only one for ID)
>
>Some of the things that come back in results are amazing. Search for IA and
>get senior java architect as a high ranked result?
>
>
>
>
>On Feb 20, 2008 2:26 PM, David Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  Andrei,
>>
>>  I think you are looking at a number of different factors that are
>>  causing this.  From my point of view, I would love to move not only to
>>  the Bay area, but NY or Boston where there are tons of openings.
>>  However, the cost of living there is so outrageously expensive, it
>>  doesn't pay for me to relocate (I've got a house with a reasonable
>>  mortgage, as well as a family to consider).  It might be that many of
>>  the more experienced designers (like myself) see the same issues.  I
>>  would take a huge loss of quality of life if I went.
>>
>>  Just my 2 cents.
>>
>>  David
>>
>>  On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
>>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  > Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software
>>  >  designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or
>>  >  what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet
>>  >  there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.
>>  >  I used to have trouble hiring at Adobe back in the late 1990s mostly
>>  >  due to the high experience and training requirements needed to work
>>  >  on software at that level, but that was before there was an influx of
>>  >  people and talent into software related products, especially from the
>>  >  web. And yet, now it seems that there's an even bigger gap in the
>>  >  designer to available job ratio than every before. Everyone I know is
>>  >  having trouble filling hiring requirements.
>>  >
>>  >  Is it that the job requirements needed to get hired are too high? Not
>>  >  enough trained designers? Or is it something only happening in
>>  >  Silicon Valley? Browse the job listings and postings everywhere from
>>  >  companies in Silicon Valley and it seems we have a distinct lack of
>>  >  designers ready to fill all the openings.
>>  >
>>  >  Opinions?
>>  >
>>  >  --
>>  >  Andrei Herasimchuk
>>  >
>>  >  Principal, Involution Studios
>>  >  innovating the digital world
>>  >
>>  >  e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  >  c. +1 408 306 6422
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >  
>>  >  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>>  >  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  >  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>>  >  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>>  >  List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>  >
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  "Art provokes thinking, design solves problems"
>>
>>  w: http://www.davidshaw.info
>>  
>>  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>>  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>>  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>>  List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>
>
>
>
>--
>~ will
>
>"No matter how beautiful,
>no matter how cool your interface,
>it would be better if there were less of it."
>Alan Cooper
>-
>"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
>and what you innovate are design problems"
>---
>will evans
>user experience architect
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>---
>
>Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help


-- 


Katie Albers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

"so they work from a skills and background checklist and if a

> resume doesn't use the same set of magic words that their list does,
> you lose someone who might actually be a perfect candidate"


Then it seems they are no better than a machine.

--

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dmitry Nekrasovski]

Agreed with Dave and David, and here are some additional points to consider:

1) The demographics of more experienced candidates (i.e. more likely
to have a family and other personal obligations) make them less
interested in moving to areas with a high cost of living like SF/NYC.
Conversely, less experienced candidates may be much more willing to
relocate to these areas, but are more likely to get screened out by
HR.

2) If an employer is determined to stick to a minimum experience
requirement of 5+ years for a "senior" position, they are
automatically at a disadvantage. A number of people I know have
recently moved into "senior" positions after 1-2 years of UX
experience. Whatever those who have been working in this field for a
while may think of this trend, it is very much a reality.

3) Given the current state of the US economy/currency, fewer
experienced professionals may be willing to move to the US from other
countries. Here in Canada, the trend has actually reversed itself -
the homecoming of expats previously living in the US is now on the
rise. Add in the insanity of the US immigration system, and the
cost-benefit analysis for prospective immigrants is much less
compelling than it once was.

Dmitry


On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:05:06, dave malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Andrei,
>
> 1) This is not just a problem in SV. At the IA Summit there were 19
> sponsors all there to recruit heavily and well from my basic survey,
> they weren't all that successful. I know we weren't.
>
> 2) Like what David Shaw said. You've gotta be nutz, coocoo, and just
> insane to leave anyplace including NYC and move to SF unless you were
> guaranteed something between $150k-$200k, and HUGE relocation package
> upwards of $20-$30k. Having done relocates to both coasts I'm pretty
> familiar with what it takes at this point.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Catriona Lohan-Conway]

I have always thought we as a community need to do a better job  
educating recruiters/HR people to what we actually do to enable them  
to understand the space, write proper job descriptions and tags, know  
how to interview and hire the right people.
__
Catríona Lohan-Conway
User Experience Architect
917 405 5127
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrew Milmoe]

Supply and demand... there is A LOT of work out there right now. Many large 
companies are transforming to Web 2.0 or just evolving to become more targeted 
and efficient which requires more seasoned talent. (Versus Dot Coms chasing VC 
money and just filling seats...) Most companies today that were around during 
the boom (and survived the crash) are now bigger than they were during the boom 
and growing fast... they don't have time to grow people from scratch.  

As demand increase, so too will compensation... until it gets high enough for 
people to be headhunted, afford to relocate, or brains drain in from related 
fields.

And then later on it will slow down (or bust) and the cycle continues...

-Andrew



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Stephanie McNee]

I whole hearted agree - the results that are produced are sometimes  
nothing close to what you are searching on?

As a human factors / cognitive engineer with experience in Interface  
Design/ Interaction Design jobs seem slim for the picking - however  
I'm told there is  more work in our industry than ever  
before..and I'm currently searching in Austin are there any  
good websites out there that aid our type of people in our crusade to  
create systems that make sense? Ones that are NOT development jobs...





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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Nick Iozzo]

From: dave malouf
Sent: Wed 2/20/2008 12:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?
...
3) The value of SV as a nexus is being lost due to well what SV does
... create technological solutions that mitigate the need for
centralized workforces. 8-)
...

Speaking of which
TandemSeven is hiring. Where you want to live is not a prime qualification for 
the positions. We do have concentrations in Boston, NY, Chicago, and SF... but 
we have individuals in many other cities as well.
See below for the type of folks we are looking for and the type of work we do. 
You can learn more at http://www.tandemseven.com/careers/
Send me your resume or questions if you are interested.
__
Principal User Experience Architect
Apply for this position
Tandemseven is a privately held, self-financed consulting company that designs 
and architects business portals and custom e-business applications. We 
specialize in creating, usable, intuitive interfaces for complex applications. 
Here's what is different about working for TandemSeven:
* We are a consulting company-not an agency or a resourcing company
* Our primary goal is to provide the best solution for the client-not to win 
design awards (although we have won them, and we appreciate the industry 
recognition) 
* We focus on the complicated stuff-e-commerce, transactional systems, 
enterprise-scaled portals, global sites where we optimize the designs for a CMS 
and RIAs 
* User Experience Architects (UEAs) define the strategy-we do the research and 
the work, providing the smartest integration of research findings with the 
solution (less is lost in translation)
* UEAs maintain the primary client relationship-we do not rely on others to 
translate requirements and feedback; we hear it directly from the source.
Interested? Review the description below to see if your skills and expertise 
match our criteria and send us your resume.
Skills
Candidates must be able to lead engagements and work independently or with a 
team. Strong client-facing presentation and communication skills (both written 
and verbal) are required. Additionally, candidates must be able to estimate and 
write proposals and statements of work, and handle multiple projects and 
proposals concurrently. Specific skills include:
* Persona development
* User research planning and execution
* Usability testing
* ontextual inquiry
* Task analysis
* Field studies
* Requirements definition: gathering and documentation
* Use case creation
* User interface design
* Conceptual interaction models
* Information architecture
* Wireframes
* Functional specifications 
* Tools
Candidates must be proficient in Microsoft Office (Word, PowerPoint, Excel), 
expert in Visio (including Template and Background Creation) and Microsoft 
Project.
Requirements
* Minimum 10 years practicing software or web-based UI design, including portal 
frameworks
* Experience in designing complex, transactional applications
* A passion for creating great user experiences through user-centered design.
Preferred
* Minimum 3 - 5 years of senior consulting to large, Fortune 500 companies
* Familiarity with both agile and plan-driven development processes and UML 
* Experience and desire to create intellectual capital (e.g., white papers, 
conference presentations, etc.). Must be able to supply samples of previous 
research and design work. 
* Advanced degree in Human-Computer Interaction, Human Factors, Cognitive 
Psychology, or related field 
* Minimum 3 years experience working in the financial services industry 
* A strong business development network
As part of TandemSeven's standard employment process, candidates will undergo a 
complete background check, which may include fingerprinting, prior to an offer 
being extended. Background checks are conducted by a professional third party 
firm at no charge to the applicant and include: prior employment verification, 
education verification, social security trace, criminal background check and 
motor vehicle records (where required for position). 
TandemSeven supports Workforce Diversity and is an equal opportunity employer.

Nick Iozzo
Principal User Experience Architect
tandemseven
847.452.7442 mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.tandemseven.com

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Kevin Silver]

On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:05 PM, dave malouf wrote:

> 2) Like what David Shaw said. You've gotta be nutz, coocoo, and just
> insane to leave anyplace including NYC and move to SF unless you were
> guaranteed something between $150k-$200k, and HUGE relocation package
> upwards of $20-$30k. Having done relocates to both coasts I'm pretty
> familiar with what it takes at this point.


Exactly!

Kevin Silver
Clearwired Web Services

10899 Montgomery, Suite C
Albuquerque, NM 87109

office: 505.217.3505
toll-free: 866.430.2832
fax: 505.217.3506

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: www.clearwired.com





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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:05 PM, dave malouf wrote:

> 2) Like what David Shaw said. You've gotta be nutz, coocoo, and just
> insane to leave anyplace including NYC and move to SF unless you were
> guaranteed something between $150k-$200k, and HUGE relocation package
> upwards of $20-$30k. Having done relocates to both coasts I'm pretty
> familiar with what it takes at this point.

While I understand the problem with the cost of living here, I think  
this is a bit extreme and may be overstating the issue a little bit.   
Not to take away from the very real issue of what the cost of living  
here is and how it puts a strain on people, but it certainly doesn't  
require earning $150K to $200K a year.


On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:05 PM, dave malouf wrote:

> 3) The value of SV as a nexus is being lost due to well what SV  
> does ... create technological solutions that mitigate the need for  
> centralized workforces. 8-)


Not sure I agree with this. I'm still shocked and amazed the amount  
of people or companies I get requests from to work on some pretty  
interesting projects. And in fact, Involution has gotten a good  
number of those projects specifically because our studio location is  
3 miles from Apple in Cupertino, 5 miles from Google in Mountain  
View, 2 miles from Yahoo! here in Sunnyvale, 10 miles from Adobe in  
San Jose, right around the corner from Intel in Santa Clara, and a  
short drive away from nearly every single internet, web or new  
technology startup... you get the picture.

If we weren't here, we wouldn't be getting any of these projects.  
While I know there's great work being done elsewhere, I still can't  
imagine getting all the latest projects , or at least the latest kind  
of projects we work on, without being here in Silicon Valley.


On Feb 20, 2008, at 11:40 AM, W Evans wrote:
> And I would love to blame the quality of the job posting sites.  
> There search engines are terrible. Just now, I search in   
> Washington DC
>
> Information Architect (86 results - only 3 were for IA)
> Interaction Designer (41 results, only 1 for IxD)
> Interface Designer (10 results, only one for ID)
>
> Some of the things that come back in results are amazing. Search  
> for IA and get senior java architect as a high ranked result?

This gets back to semantics which no one on this board likes to  
discuss. The reason job titles, job descriptions and skills/craft  
descriptions are so important is precisely because people in HR  
simply cannot be expected to know every single in and out of what a  
field like ours does. I remember how much work I had to do with the  
many different HR people I've worked with, and they have a ton on  
their plates as it is.

The fact our field doesn't hunker down and help them with the problem  
of normalizing job titles, job descriptions and skills/craft  
requirements is our fault, not theirs.

-

Now that we have some thoughts on it, is there a solution, either for  
Silicon Valley or in general to how to better connect designers out  
in the world with the various jobs that are cropping up everywhere?  
And part of that solution I think needs to fin a way to map designers  
to job that are within their skill sets, but also provide growth  
paths. I find most Job sites, free boards or paid, to be sorely lacking.

And yes, for those of you that have emailed me privately, please feel  
free to send me resumes/links to portfolios if you are interested in  
Involution or working/moving to in Silicon Valley to design software,  
web or other technology type products. You know my deal... I need  
designers who want to own both the aesthetic and interaction design  
on their projects, and who are willing to jump whole hog into  
prototyping at a code level with their own two hands whenever  
necessary, although we have awesome developers here to help in that  
respect. We currently have 2 to 3 openings for designers that need to  
be filled, and I've got way too many companies asking me to help them  
even more. It's a good problem to have I guess, but one I wish was  
not recurring year over year. I seem to have to deal with this every  
two to three years and it frustrates me. I'm interested as both a  
business owner and a designer how to better handle this sort of  
problem in the future since it seems to be systemic at some level.

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Robert Hoekman, Jr.]

> Not to take away from the very real issue of what the cost of living
> here is and how it puts a strain on people, but it certainly doesn't
> require earning $150K to $200K a year.


Depends on your lifestyle. For example, $100k can do significantly more for
you in Arizona than $150k can in Silicon Valley or SFO. When I explored
positions in SV, I realized very quickly that I would be paying twice as
much money to live in an apartment half the size of my house—and that was
just the beginning. In the end, it just wasn't worth it.

The other factor, though, was the thought of becoming a sort of "cog in the
machine" in SV. Working for a big company like Apple or Google, you can lose
your whole identity. At Apple, for example, they wholly condemn the idea of
going out and speaking at conferences unless your name is Steve, and I was
told outright that my speaking schedule would have to come to an untimely
end. I couldn't see sacrificing all the great things I get to do as a
consultant to work at one of the bigs. Again, not worth it.

And as far as opportunities go, well, let's just say I'm doing just dandy
living outside of SV. Sure, I'd probably get some very sexy commercial
projects working in SV, but sexy commercial projects aren't my focus, so
it's a moot point.

I'll leave the sexy commercial projects to the youth. :)

-r-

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Ari Feldman]

The same goes for us in NYC! Rents in manhattan for a 250 sq ft studio are
easily $1900 or more.

A two bedroom apt in a good neighborhood (with good schools) easily costs
$850K or more. My younger brother lives in Scottsdale, AZ. He owns a nice,
two level house for what our 1 bdr apt costs!

Food, clothes and other necessities aren't much different (unless you dine
out a lot of have very expensive tastes) but the cost of housing will kill
you.


On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> > Not to take away from the very real issue of what the cost of living
> > here is and how it puts a strain on people, but it certainly doesn't
> > require earning $150K to $200K a year.
>
>
> Depends on your lifestyle. For example, $100k can do significantly more
> for
> you in Arizona than $150k can in Silicon Valley or SFO. When I explored
> positions in SV, I realized very quickly that I would be paying twice as
> much money to live in an apartment half the size of my house—and that was
> just the beginning. In the end, it just wasn't worth it.
>
> The other factor, though, was the thought of becoming a sort of "cog in
> the
> machine" in SV. Working for a big company like Apple or Google, you can
> lose
> your whole identity. At Apple, for example, they wholly condemn the idea
> of
> going out and speaking at conferences unless your name is Steve, and I was
> told outright that my speaking schedule would have to come to an untimely
> end. I couldn't see sacrificing all the great things I get to do as a
> consultant to work at one of the bigs. Again, not worth it.
>
> And as far as opportunities go, well, let's just say I'm doing just dandy
> living outside of SV. Sure, I'd probably get some very sexy commercial
> projects working in SV, but sexy commercial projects aren't my focus, so
> it's a moot point.
>
> I'll leave the sexy commercial projects to the youth. :)
>
> -r-
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
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> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>



-- 
--
www.flyingyogi.com
--

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[mark schraad]

Lots of reasons to relocate for work.

How many designers do we know that started with Apple or Adobe on  
their resume and leveraged that into bigger better roles.

Sometimes you need exposure to a great company or to great projects  
to kick start a carrier.  While great projects are available outside  
of SV and NY, they are fewer in between.

I have often thought about taking what would amount to a pay cut to  
live in Manhattan for a couple of years. For a Kansas kid it would be  
quite an experience.

Think about a young senior UI designer that finds herself worth $9  
million after 14-15 months on the job. What are the odds?

There are lots of currencies to work for. Salary is only one of them.  
Cost of living is another concern... but there are so many  
ingredients in the formula.

I recommend that young designers stretch, see as much of the world as  
possible, and set habits early with great companies. Life will limit  
the options for you soon enough - get after it early.

Mark


On Feb 20, 2008, at 8:30 PM, Ari Feldman wrote:

> The same goes for us in NYC! Rents in manhattan for a 250 sq ft  
> studio are
> easily $1900 or more.
>
> A two bedroom apt in a good neighborhood (with good schools) easily  
> costs
> $850K or more. My younger brother lives in Scottsdale, AZ. He owns  
> a nice,
> two level house for what our 1 bdr apt costs!
>
> Food, clothes and other necessities aren't much different (unless  
> you dine
> out a lot of have very expensive tastes) but the cost of housing  
> will kill
> you.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>>> Not to take away from the very real issue of what the cost of living
>>> here is and how it puts a strain on people, but it certainly doesn't
>>> require earning $150K to $200K a year.
>>
>>
>> Depends on your lifestyle. For example, $100k can do significantly  
>> more
>> for
>> you in Arizona than $150k can in Silicon Valley or SFO. When I  
>> explored
>> positions in SV, I realized very quickly that I would be paying  
>> twice as
>> much money to live in an apartment half the size of my house—and  
>> that was
>> just the beginning. In the end, it just wasn't worth it.
>>
>> The other factor, though, was the thought of becoming a sort of  
>> "cog in
>> the
>> machine" in SV. Working for a big company like Apple or Google,  
>> you can
>> lose
>> your whole identity. At Apple, for example, they wholly condemn  
>> the idea
>> of
>> going out and speaking at conferences unless your name is Steve,  
>> and I was
>> told outright that my speaking schedule would have to come to an  
>> untimely
>> end. I couldn't see sacrificing all the great things I get to do as a
>> consultant to work at one of the bigs. Again, not worth it.
>>
>> And as far as opportunities go, well, let's just say I'm doing  
>> just dandy
>> living outside of SV. Sure, I'd probably get some very sexy  
>> commercial
>> projects working in SV, but sexy commercial projects aren't my  
>> focus, so
>> it's a moot point.
>>
>> I'll leave the sexy commercial projects to the youth. :)
>>
>> -r-
>> 
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>> List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> --
> www.flyingyogi.com
> --
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[erpdesigner]

Getting older, having babies, networking and finding jobs through informal 
channels and friends rather than formal channels, and staying employed as a 
consultant as a job that I like with people I like that affords me the 
flexibility that I need to avoid a long commute and spend more time with  my 
daughter.

I'm constantly getting emails from recruiters and for the most part I ignore 
them.  Most jobs just don't offer the flexibility, pay and commute that I'd 
want in order to change jobs. 

- Original Message 
From: Andrei Herasimchuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: IxDA Discuss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:06:01 AM
Subject: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?


Just 
a 
quick 
question: 
Where 
are 
all 
the 
interface 
and 
software  
designers 
in 
Silicon 
Valley? 
Has 
everyone 
just 
packed 
up 
and 
left 
or  
what? 
I 
see 
more 
job 
listings, 
postings 
and 
calls 
for 
resumes 
and 
yet  
there 
seem 
to 
be 
even 
fewer 
people 
to 
fill 
the 
jobs 
than 
ever 
before.  
I 
used 
to 
have 
trouble 
hiring 
at 
Adobe 
back 
in 
the 
late 
1990s 
mostly  
due 
to 
the 
high 
experience 
and 
training 
requirements 
needed 
to 
work  
on 
software 
at 
that 
level, 
but 
that 
was 
before 
there 
was 
an 
influx 
of  
people 
and 
talent 
into 
software 
related 
products, 
especially 
from 
the  
web. 
And 
yet, 
now 
it 
seems 
that 
there's 
an 
even 
bigger 
gap 
in 
the  
designer 
to 
available 
job 
ratio 
than 
every 
before. 
Everyone 
I 
know 
is  
having 
trouble 
filling 
hiring 
requirements.

Is 
it 
that 
the 
job 
requirements 
needed 
to 
get 
hired 
are 
too 
high? 
Not  
enough 
trained 
designers? 
Or 
is 
it 
something 
only 
happening 
in  
Silicon 
Valley? 
Browse 
the 
job 
listings 
and 
postings 
everywhere 
from  
companies 
in 
Silicon 
Valley 
and 
it 
seems 
we 
have 
a 
distinct 
lack 
of  
designers 
ready 
to 
fill 
all 
the 
openings.

Opinions?

-- 
Andrei 
Herasimchuk

Principal, 
Involution 
Studios
innovating 
the 
digital 
world

e. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. 
+1 
408 
306 
6422



Welcome 
to 
the 
Interaction 
Design 
Association 
(IxDA)!
To 
post 
to 
this 
list 
... 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe 
 
http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
List 
Guidelines 
 
http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
List 
Help 
.. 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Manish Pillewar]

Arent we a global village anymore? It makes me happy
to know that UX is almost at the same level around the
globe. 
Considering that most of the top business houses have
their offices in China and India, does it make sense
to consider shifting to these parts of the world as
well?
Consider this: In Bangalore or Goa you will not spend
more than $600-$700 on the best rented apartment you
can dream of( swimming pool n all :-))

Cheers! :P
Manish Pillewar
UXD-Thoughtworks
Bangalore

Thanks and Regards
 Manish Govind Pillewar
 Sr. User Experience Designer
 Thoughtworks India Pvt. Ltd.Bangalore-India
  
 Tel. +91 9880566951 (M)
+91 80 41113967 (Eve.)
 Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface :-)



  __
Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Scott McDaniel]

This seems to apply for many people - in weighing our options in the
near future as she finishes
her doctorate, my fiancee and I have considered moving.  The Bay Area
is one of the few
places we've given serious thought away from our current hometown.
We are aware that this would mean shifting (even with a cost of living
adjustment)
from looking at buying some lovely 3-4 bedroom homes to renting a much
smaller flat...
but for the sake of a multitude of opportunities in what seems to be
the most exciting time
in the field since the bubble, that's not a deal-breaker.
I'd deal with temporary lessened effective buying power to have my
hands in the really cool crap...
if you'll forgive my phrasing.
I know it's not a scientific measure, a good number of my peers that I
respect feel much the
same.

Scott

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 9:33 PM, mark schraad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lots of reasons to relocate for work.
>
>  How many designers do we know that started with Apple or Adobe on
>  their resume and leveraged that into bigger better roles.
>
>  Sometimes you need exposure to a great company or to great projects
>  to kick start a carrier.  While great projects are available outside
>  of SV and NY, they are fewer in between.
>
>  I have often thought about taking what would amount to a pay cut to
>  live in Manhattan for a couple of years. For a Kansas kid it would be
>  quite an experience.
>
>  Think about a young senior UI designer that finds herself worth $9
>  million after 14-15 months on the job. What are the odds?
>
>  There are lots of currencies to work for. Salary is only one of them.
>  Cost of living is another concern... but there are so many
>  ingredients in the formula.
>
>  I recommend that young designers stretch, see as much of the world as
>  possible, and set habits early with great companies. Life will limit
>  the options for you soon enough - get after it early.
>
>  Mark



-- 
'Life' plus 'significance' = magic. ~ Grant Morrison

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[James Leslie]

 
The UK also has a lot of vacancies for designers which I believe is
demand outstripping supply, and we are starting to see a big increase in
the number of UI/IxD jobs on the market too.
However, we have a lot of the same laws regarding immigration as the US.
For example, I would love to go to California for a year or 2 to work,
but this is very unlikely as I am a British citizen and work visas are
nearly impossible to come by. The same works in reverse for US citizens
wanting to work here. I know many other designers who would love the
opportunity to work in SV for a couple of years, who can't due to
immigration laws.

The value of going and working abroad, where different markets apply and
the experience of seeing first hand the difference in cultures, can be
huge in many ways... both in personal and professional terms.
We have freedom of movement for workers in Europe and that means there
are many multi-cultural design studios, personally I think this is
great. It helps expand ideas and pull cultural diversity into design. So
instead of going to work in SV, we go to work in Paris, Barcelona,
London, Rome, etc.


-Original Message-
3) Given the current state of the US economy/currency, fewer experienced
professionals may be willing to move to the US from other countries.
Here in Canada, the trend has actually reversed itself - the homecoming
of expats previously living in the US is now on the rise. Add in the
insanity of the US immigration system, and the cost-benefit analysis for
prospective immigrants is much less compelling than it once was.




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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Kim Bieler]

I'm wonder, too, what kind of opportunities are out there for  
consultant designers like me? There are lots of jobs out there, but  
how difficult is it to do interaction design when you're not part of  
the organization?

I know we've got plenty of consultants on this list, so I guess my  
question is for them, but also for the people who are hiring.


-- Kim

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Kim Bieler Graphic Design
www.kbgd.com
c. 240-476-3129
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +




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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Christina Wodtke]

What I worry about is what we saw in boom 1.0, which was a ton of 
unqualified people taking on the title, creating a bad reputation, then 
returning to cab driving when the crash comes. OTOH, I was one of those 
under qualified people in the first wave, so maybe I should be more 
generous. hee.

[Shameless plug]

The job postings on jobs.boxesandarrows.com are extremely accurate. Less 
of them, but they are all aimed at the right demographic and thus have 
high relevancy.

W Evans wrote:
> And I would love to blame the quality of the job posting sites. There search
> engines are terrible.
>
> Just now, I search in  Washington DC
>
> Information Architect (86 results - only 3 were for IA)
>
> Interaction Designer (41 results, only 1 for IxD)
>
> Interface Designer (10 results, only one for ID)
>
> Some of the things that come back in results are amazing. Search for IA and
> get senior java architect as a high ranked result?
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2008 2:26 PM, David Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> Andrei,
>>
>> I think you are looking at a number of different factors that are
>> causing this.  From my point of view, I would love to move not only to
>> the Bay area, but NY or Boston where there are tons of openings.
>> However, the cost of living there is so outrageously expensive, it
>> doesn't pay for me to relocate (I've got a house with a reasonable
>> mortgage, as well as a family to consider).  It might be that many of
>> the more experienced designers (like myself) see the same issues.  I
>> would take a huge loss of quality of life if I went.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software
>>>  designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or
>>>  what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet
>>>  there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.
>>>  I used to have trouble hiring at Adobe back in the late 1990s mostly
>>>  due to the high experience and training requirements needed to work
>>>  on software at that level, but that was before there was an influx of
>>>  people and talent into software related products, especially from the
>>>  web. And yet, now it seems that there's an even bigger gap in the
>>>  designer to available job ratio than every before. Everyone I know is
>>>  having trouble filling hiring requirements.
>>>
>>>  Is it that the job requirements needed to get hired are too high? Not
>>>  enough trained designers? Or is it something only happening in
>>>  Silicon Valley? Browse the job listings and postings everywhere from
>>>  companies in Silicon Valley and it seems we have a distinct lack of
>>>  designers ready to fill all the openings.
>>>
>>>  Opinions?
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Andrei Herasimchuk
>>>
>>>  Principal, Involution Studios
>>>  innovating the digital world
>>>
>>>  e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>  c. +1 408 306 6422
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>>>  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>>>  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>>>  List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>>
>>>   
>>
>> --
>> "Art provokes thinking, design solves problems"
>>
>> w: http://www.davidshaw.info
>> 
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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>> 
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Christina Wodtke
Principal Instigator
415-577-2550


Business :: http://www.cucinamedia.com
Magazine :: http://www.boxesandarrows.com
Product :: http://www.publicsquarehq.com
Personal :: http://www.eleganthack.com
Book :: http://www.blueprintsfortheweb.com

[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dan Saffer]

On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:05 PM, dave malouf wrote:

> 2) Like what David Shaw said. You've gotta be nutz, coocoo, and just
> insane to leave anyplace including NYC and move to SF unless you were
> guaranteed something between $150k-$200k, and HUGE relocation package
> upwards of $20-$30k. Having done relocates to both coasts I'm pretty
> familiar with what it takes at this point.

Wow. I want to work where you work! Most interaction designers I know  
in the Bay Area don't make anywhere close to this amount. I'd say  
about half of this ($75-100k) is about average.

I moved to SF in my mid-30s (with a family I should add) and yes, I  
won't be buying a house anytime soon, but if what's important to you  
is doing really interesting work surrounded by a high calibre  
interaction design community, the Bay Area is hard to beat. The access  
you get to some amazing people and companies (startups and giants  
alike) is almost unreal. In a few block radius from my office there is  
frog, Twitter, Yahoo labs, Cooper, Hot, IDEO, Six Apart, Technorati,  
Adobe, Nokia...the list goes on and on.

Location still matters.

Dan



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

1. B&A is THE place for people like us to hang, so it would be
fan-fricken-tastic if the job board also allowed anon or not so anon
postings of resumes just for people in our field - then charge through the
nose for recruiters etc to come in and take a peak knowing it was  a closed
community. Hell - I would pay a premium to list my resume etc on B&A knowing
that only recruiters actually looking for me and not a java engineer were
likely to contact me. I *Hate* their "spam"!

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Christina Wodtke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> What I worry about is what we saw in boom 1.0, which was a ton of
> unqualified people taking on the title, creating a bad reputation, then
> returning to cab driving when the crash comes. OTOH, I was one of those
> under qualified people in the first wave, so maybe I should be more
> generous. hee.
>
> [Shameless plug]
>
> The job postings on jobs.boxesandarrows.com are extremely accurate. Less
> of them, but they are all aimed at the right demographic and thus have
> high relevancy.
>
> W Evans wrote:
> > And I would love to blame the quality of the job posting sites. There
> search
> > engines are terrible.
> >
> > Just now, I search in  Washington DC
> >
> > Information Architect (86 results - only 3 were for IA)
> >
> > Interaction Designer (41 results, only 1 for IxD)
> >
> > Interface Designer (10 results, only one for ID)
> >
> > Some of the things that come back in results are amazing. Search for IA
> and
> > get senior java architect as a high ranked result?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2008 2:26 PM, David Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Andrei,
> >>
> >> I think you are looking at a number of different factors that are
> >> causing this.  From my point of view, I would love to move not only to
> >> the Bay area, but NY or Boston where there are tons of openings.
> >> However, the cost of living there is so outrageously expensive, it
> >> doesn't pay for me to relocate (I've got a house with a reasonable
> >> mortgage, as well as a family to consider).  It might be that many of
> >> the more experienced designers (like myself) see the same issues.  I
> >> would take a huge loss of quality of life if I went.
> >>
> >> Just my 2 cents.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software
> >>>  designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or
> >>>  what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet
> >>>  there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.
> >>>  I used to have trouble hiring at Adobe back in the late 1990s mostly
> >>>  due to the high experience and training requirements needed to work
> >>>  on software at that level, but that was before there was an influx of
> >>>  people and talent into software related products, especially from the
> >>>  web. And yet, now it seems that there's an even bigger gap in the
> >>>  designer to available job ratio than every before. Everyone I know is
> >>>  having trouble filling hiring requirements.
> >>>
> >>>  Is it that the job requirements needed to get hired are too high? Not
> >>>  enough trained designers? Or is it something only happening in
> >>>  Silicon Valley? Browse the job listings and postings everywhere from
> >>>  companies in Silicon Valley and it seems we have a distinct lack of
> >>>  designers ready to fill all the openings.
> >>>
> >>>  Opinions?
> >>>
> >>>  --
> >>>  Andrei Herasimchuk
> >>>
> >>>  Principal, Involution Studios
> >>>  innovating the digital world
> >>>
> >>>  e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>  c. +1 408 306 6422
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> >>>  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> >>>  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> >>>  List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Art provokes thinking, design solves problems"
> >>
> >> w: http://www.davidshaw.info
> >> 
> >> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> >> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> >> List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> >> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Christina Wodtke
> Principal Instigator
> 415-577-2550
>
>
> Business :: http://www.cucinamedia.com
> Magazine :: http://www.boxesandarrows.com
> Product :: http://www.publicsquarehq.com
> Personal :: http://www.eleganthack.com
> Book :: http://www.blueprintsfortheweb.com
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ___

Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

"Wow. I want to work where you work! Most interaction designers I know
in the Bay Area don't make anywhere close to this amount. I'd say
about half of this ($75-100k) is about average."

Therein lies the problem in the Bay Area Dan. How much is proximity to all
those great places/people/companies worth? Assume you live in a city with a
base cost of living index of 100, pay 1800 per month for rent or mortgage,
and make $100K -- and the same job in SV/SF pays $100K, but the cost of
living index is 132, you can naturally see why it would cause huge
shortages. Of course - in good times like these - SF grows in our sector
faster than most other regions b/c of all the access to capital to fund new
ideas.
I would seriously consider moving someday, but not for an effective pay cut.

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Dan Saffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:05 PM, dave malouf wrote:
>
> > 2) Like what David Shaw said. You've gotta be nutz, coocoo, and just
> > insane to leave anyplace including NYC and move to SF unless you were
> > guaranteed something between $150k-$200k, and HUGE relocation package
> > upwards of $20-$30k. Having done relocates to both coasts I'm pretty
> > familiar with what it takes at this point.
>
> Wow. I want to work where you work! Most interaction designers I know
> in the Bay Area don't make anywhere close to this amount. I'd say
> about half of this ($75-100k) is about average.
>
> I moved to SF in my mid-30s (with a family I should add) and yes, I
> won't be buying a house anytime soon, but if what's important to you
> is doing really interesting work surrounded by a high calibre
> interaction design community, the Bay Area is hard to beat. The access
> you get to some amazing people and companies (startups and giants
> alike) is almost unreal. In a few block radius from my office there is
> frog, Twitter, Yahoo labs, Cooper, Hot, IDEO, Six Apart, Technorati,
> Adobe, Nokia...the list goes on and on.
>
> Location still matters.
>
> Dan
>
>
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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>



-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Scott McDaniel]

That seems to be the crux of the need, doesn't it?
The right people who at least know how the skills fit together for
particular roles
(or even how roles can be ambiguous and amorphous*) for the sake of
the companies,
appropriate recruiters and most importantly to the craftspeople
seeking and being sought.

Are there recruiters, search engines, job banks, etc. with people who
are specific enough to the industry?

Where do the "IA needed with 10 years Illustrator and J2EE hands-on
experience" posts come from?
Do the UX-related people not have any oversight or even input into
these job postings if it's their HR people making them?

Scott

*triple word score

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:33 AM, W Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1. B&A is THE place for people like us to hang, so it would be
>  fan-fricken-tastic if the job board also allowed anon or not so anon
>  postings of resumes just for people in our field - then charge through the
>  nose for recruiters etc to come in and take a peak knowing it was  a closed
>  community. Hell - I would pay a premium to list my resume etc on B&A knowing
>  that only recruiters actually looking for me and not a java engineer were
>  likely to contact me. I *Hate* their "spam"!
-- 
'Life' plus 'significance' = magic. ~ Grant Morrison

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dan Saffer]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Dan Saffer wrote:

> Location still matters.
>

Just to follow up on my own comment (hee), here's an excerpt from  
Richard "Creative Class" Florida's new book, "Who's Your City? How the  
Creative Economy Is Making Where You Live the Most Important Decision  
of Your Life."



It's a mantra of the age of globalization that place doesn't matter.  
Technology has leveled the global playing field--the world is flat.  
"When the world is flat," says New York Times columnist Thomas  
Friedman, "you can innovate without having to emigrate."

It's a compelling notion--but it's wrong. Today's global economy is  
spiky. What's more, the tallest spikes, the cities and regions that  
drive the world economy, are growing ever higher while the valleys,  
with little economic activity, recede still further.

...

Geographic concentration encourages innovation because ideas flow more  
freely, are honed more sharply, and can be put into practice more  
quickly when innovators, implementers, and financial backers are in  
constant contact. Creative people cluster not simply because they like  
to be around one another or prefer cosmopolitan centers with lots of  
amenities (though both things tend to be true). They cluster because  
density brings such powerful productivity advantages, economies of  
scale, and knowledge spillovers.

...

The main difference between now and a couple of decades ago is that  
the economic and social distance between the peaks has gotten smaller.  
People in spiky places are often more connected to one another, even  
from half a world away, than they are to people in their own  
backyards. This peak-to-peak connectivity is accelerated by the highly  
mobile, global creative class, about 150 million people, who migrate  
freely among the world's leading cities--places such as London, New  
York, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Chicago, Los Angeles, and  
San Francisco.

Meanwhile, second-tier cities from Detroit to Nagoya to Bangalore are  
locked in potentially devastating competition for jobs, people, and  
investment. And in the so-called developing world, millions upon  
millions of people whose culture and traditions are being ripped apart  
by globalization lack the education, skills, or mobility to connect to  
the world economy. They are stuck in places that are falling further  
and further behind.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

>
> Where do the "IA needed with 10 years Illustrator and J2EE hands-on
> experience" posts come from?



> Scott


One word: Leprechauns*

-

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

Dan, when I read this:
"Geographic concentration encourages innovation because ideas flow more
freely, are honed more sharply, and can be put into practice more
quickly when innovators, implementers, and financial backers are in
constant contact. Creative people cluster not simply because they like
to be around one another or prefer cosmopolitan centers with lots of
amenities (though both things tend to be true). They cluster because
density brings such powerful productivity advantages, economies of
scale, and knowledge spillovers."

I couldn't help think how many IxDers found Espresso Gallery in Savannah
last week (2 weeks ago? Sad!)...


On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Dan Saffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Dan Saffer wrote:
>
> > Location still matters.
> >
>
> Just to follow up on my own comment (hee), here's an excerpt from
> Richard "Creative Class" Florida's new book, "Who's Your City? How the
> Creative Economy Is Making Where You Live the Most Important Decision
> of Your Life."
>
> 
>
> It's a mantra of the age of globalization that place doesn't matter.
> Technology has leveled the global playing field--the world is flat.
> "When the world is flat," says New York Times columnist Thomas
> Friedman, "you can innovate without having to emigrate."
>
> It's a compelling notion--but it's wrong. Today's global economy is
> spiky. What's more, the tallest spikes, the cities and regions that
> drive the world economy, are growing ever higher while the valleys,
> with little economic activity, recede still further.
>
> ...
>
> Geographic concentration encourages innovation because ideas flow more
> freely, are honed more sharply, and can be put into practice more
> quickly when innovators, implementers, and financial backers are in
> constant contact. Creative people cluster not simply because they like
> to be around one another or prefer cosmopolitan centers with lots of
> amenities (though both things tend to be true). They cluster because
> density brings such powerful productivity advantages, economies of
> scale, and knowledge spillovers.
>
> ...
>
> The main difference between now and a couple of decades ago is that
> the economic and social distance between the peaks has gotten smaller.
> People in spiky places are often more connected to one another, even
> from half a world away, than they are to people in their own
> backyards. This peak-to-peak connectivity is accelerated by the highly
> mobile, global creative class, about 150 million people, who migrate
> freely among the world's leading cities--places such as London, New
> York, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Chicago, Los Angeles, and
> San Francisco.
>
> Meanwhile, second-tier cities from Detroit to Nagoya to Bangalore are
> locked in potentially devastating competition for jobs, people, and
> investment. And in the so-called developing world, millions upon
> millions of people whose culture and traditions are being ripped apart
> by globalization lack the education, skills, or mobility to connect to
> the world economy. They are stuck in places that are falling further
> and further behind.
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>



-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dan Saffer]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:42 AM, W Evans wrote:

> Therein lies the problem in the Bay Area Dan. How much is proximity  
> to all those great places/people/companies worth? Assume you live in  
> a city with a base cost of living index of 100, pay 1800 per month  
> for rent or mortgage, and make $100K -- and the same job in SV/SF  
> pays $100K, but the cost of living index is 132, you can naturally  
> see why it would cause huge shortages. Of course - in good times  
> like these - SF grows in our sector faster than most other regions b/ 
> c of all the access to capital to fund new ideas.
> I would seriously consider moving someday, but not for an effective  
> pay cut.

I think you have to think about it as an investment in your career.  
It's always better in the long run to be a big fish in a big pond than  
a big fish in a small pond. In an area with limited mobility between  
good jobs, you are likely to eventually hit a ceiling and its  
accompanying salary cap. In places like SF/SV, Tokyo, London, New  
York, etc. the ceiling is much higher. So yes, initially, you are  
screwed by the cost of living, but eventually, because of the  
connections you make and the mobility you have, you will likely do  
better in the long run. That's the hope, at least. :)

Dan

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Chris Bernard]

I get to see a lot of good interaction design shops in the US. Smaller shops, 5 
to 30 people. Today, it simply doesn't matter where you are if you are good. In 
fact, if you are good (and can run a small business and develop a pipeline) 
it's an almost universal truth that you're going to be better off running your 
own shop. All that great work that folks get by being in SV? The shops in 
Oklahoma City, Austin and even Omaha get those calls too. I see it every day 
and I see companies try to BUY those shops in whole because they are having 
such a hard time hiring design talent.

This is a hard thing to see in a world of NDAs and projects that never see the 
light of day but I'm probably in a unique position in my role in that I get to 
see this so I thought it might be helpful to share. The good news is that IxD 
is incredibly valuable right now. The bad news is it won't stay that way if we 
can't find a way to grow the capacity of the discipline.

Inherently I think a lot of good designers know this and if you're in the 
enterprise and/or a corporate environment it can sometimes be hard to procure 
IxD talent. Please note I'm not I'm not saying that there aren't great 
opportunities in the enterprise or corporate environments (it's where I am 
too), just that it's a harder and more nuanced sell and even I'm drawn to 
allure of the small agency these days.

A few years ago I too considered a relocation to SV and when I did the math it 
just didn't make sense. As a more mature designer with a family of three 
children and wife that just stopped working I just couldn't make the math work 
(I also live in an inner ring suburb of Chicago which has crazy prices too so 
I'm already coming at this from a warped perspective, NYC, LA and SV might be 
the only places more expensive).

The challenge with places like the Bay Area and (increasingly) NYC and Seattle 
is not getting started there, it's settling there. Once you want to buy a 
house, have kids, etc. things spiral out of control quickly. In fact if you 
want to buy a modest house in Silicon Valley (and by modest I mean standards 
the rest of the US would apply--a few thousand square feet for the house and 
modest lot size like 50 feet by 150 feet) you're going to be looking to spend 
from 750k for what I would consider a complete dump and upwards of 1 million 
for something that would afford a nice quality of life. That house where you'd 
WANT to live? We'll the sky's the limit. (These are based on my own experience 
in looking around the Valley. A 1400 square foot Eichler for a million bucks in 
Sunnyvale was not getting my family too excited about a move to California.

I think David M is being a bit kind too, I'm not sure the salary ranges he's 
quoted would even get you a middle-class lifestyle in SV these days if you've 
got a family. But let's not sell this short. Places like New York, SV and 
(increasingly) Austin, Seattle, Ann Arbor are expensive because these 
ecosystems and that proximity IS important and VALUABLE.

If you're a young designer getting started I think it's a GREAT idea to spend a 
few years in one of these places to get your skills pulled together. Although 
today I would argue that doing a turn in Asia for a few years is equally if not 
more valuable.

Chris Bernard
Microsoft
User Experience Evangelist
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
630.530.4208 Office
312.925.4095 Mobile



Blog: www.designthinkingdigest.com
Design: www.microsoft.com/design
Tools: www.microsoft.com/expression
Community: http://www.visitmix.com

"The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed." William Gibson


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Hoekman, 
Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:24 PM
To: Andrei Herasimchuk
Cc: IxDA Discuss
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

> Not to take away from the very real issue of what the cost of living
> here is and how it puts a strain on people, but it certainly doesn't
> require earning $150K to $200K a year.


Depends on your lifestyle. For example, $100k can do significantly more for
you in Arizona than $150k can in Silicon Valley or SFO. When I explored
positions in SV, I realized very quickly that I would be paying twice as
much money to live in an apartment half the size of my house-and that was
just the beginning. In the end, it just wasn't worth it.

The other factor, though, was the thought of becoming a sort of "cog in the
machine" in SV. Working for a big company like Apple or Google, you can lose
your whole identity. At Apple, for example, they wholly condemn the idea of
going out and speaking at conferences unless your name is Steve, and I was
told outright that my speaking schedule would have to come to an untimely
end. I couldn't see 

Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Rich Rogan]

Regarding the comment on living in NYC:

>The same goes for us in NYC! Rents in Manhattan for a 250 sq ft studio are
>easily $1900 or more.

>A two bedroom apt in a good neighborhood (with good schools) easily costs
>$850K or more. My younger brother lives in Scottsdale, AZ. He owns a nice,
>two level house for what our 1 bdrm apt costs!


New York City does NOT have to be an expensive place to live, and can be
VERY reasonable!

You can pay $ 8,000.00 per month for an average 2 bedroom in the West
Village Manhattan, or you could pay $ 1500.00 for a nice 2 bedroom in Bay
Ridge Brooklyn, (20 mins to Manhattan). And if $1500 is too much for you,
you could buy a 2 bedroom Coop in Flatbush Brooklyn for around $220 k. Note
both Brooklyn neighbourhoods have great food, great subways, lots of
amenities, and Bay Ridge is right on the water, with great public schools.

NYC can be very affordable and fantastic to live in, it's called move to
"Brooklyn", (which is way cooler then Manhattan now anyways).

And if Brooklyn is too expensive move to Queens, a little more boring, but
you can knock another 25% off the rent. Keep in mind these places are within
a 20 min subway ride to Manhattan, safe, better food then Manhattan, often
better clubs and bars and parks. In the 5 Burroughs of New York only 1 is
really expensive, and that's Manhattan, (unless of course you want to move
to Harlem in Manhattan, very cool at $2 + k for a 2 bdrm, or by Columbia
University around the same price).

Give me a shout if you want to find a mega deal great neighbourhood in NYC.


-- 
Joseph Rich Rogan
President UX/UI Inc.
http://www.jrrogan.com

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Douglas Brashear]

I second the vote for Brooklyn! I've lived there on two separate
occasions, the first time in Brooklyn Heights (just one subway stop away
from downtown) and the next in Cobble Hill. In both cases I was mere
minutes from work, mere steps to the supermarket and great shops &
restaurants (in one case one of the top 5 in the whole city - the
Grocery) and decent parking (well, in Cobble Hill). They were both
family neighborhoods, much quieter than anything you'd find in
Manhattan, and both were very reasonable. In Cobble Hill my wife and I
rented a 4-room railroad apartment that was on the parlor floor of a
turn-of-the-century brownstone (read: great plaster moldings, parquet
floors, pocket doors, etc.). In general, we loved our neighborhood so
much that when we do return to the city (fairly frequently) we spend the
vast majority of our time in Brooklyn.

- Doug :-)

.. ...

Doug Brashear
Director, Information Architecture

NavigationArts
7901 Jones Branch Drive, Suite 400
McLean, VA 22102

Tel:   703.584.8933
Mob:   703.725.8031
Fax:   703.584.8921

http://www.navigationarts.com

Architects of the User Experience



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Gloria Petron]

I live in Park Slope (need the green) and even though I love Brooklyn, I've
fantasized about what it would be like to live in the Carolinas or Seattle
(if certain salary issues got resolved). Just curious, why did you hate NC?

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[erpdesigner]

I'd argue that the Bay area is affordable and one can buy a home (given the 
current real estate market here), though your comfort level will not be as good 
as other areas in the country and you're going to make sacrifices about areas 
where you'd like to live versus areas where you can afford to live. 

I moved out of state for a year to North Carolina and hated it.  The Bay area 
offers designers amazing career opportunities, rich cultural institutions, 
great weather, great education, etc. At this point I would not consider moving 
anywhere else just because I'm enjoying life here too much.

- Original Message 
From: Dan Saffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: IxDA Discuss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:26:08 AM
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?



On 
Feb 
20, 
2008, 
at 
12:05 
PM, 
dave 
malouf 
wrote:

> 
2) 
Like 
what 
David 
Shaw 
said. 
You've 
gotta 
be 
nutz, 
coocoo, 
and 
just
> 
insane 
to 
leave 
anyplace 
including 
NYC 
and 
move 
to 
SF 
unless 
you 
were
> 
guaranteed 
something 
between 
$150k-$200k, 
and 
HUGE 
relocation 
package
> 
upwards 
of 
$20-$30k. 
Having 
done 
relocates 
to 
both 
coasts 
I'm 
pretty
> 
familiar 
with 
what 
it 
takes 
at 
this 
point.

Wow. 
I 
want 
to 
work 
where 
you 
work! 
Most 
interaction 
designers 
I 
know  
in 
the 
Bay 
Area 
don't 
make 
anywhere 
close 
to 
this 
amount. 
I'd 
say  
about 
half 
of 
this 
($75-100k) 
is 
about 
average.

I 
moved 
to 
SF 
in 
my 
mid-30s 
(with 
a 
family 
I 
should 
add) 
and 
yes, 
I  
won't 
be 
buying 
a 
house 
anytime 
soon, 
but 
if 
what's 
important 
to 
you  
is 
doing 
really 
interesting 
work 
surrounded 
by 
a 
high 
calibre  
interaction 
design 
community, 
the 
Bay 
Area 
is 
hard 
to 
beat. 
The 
access  
you 
get 
to 
some 
amazing 
people 
and 
companies 
(startups 
and 
giants  
alike) 
is 
almost 
unreal. 
In 
a 
few 
block 
radius 
from 
my 
office 
there 
is  
frog, 
Twitter, 
Yahoo 
labs, 
Cooper, 
Hot, 
IDEO, 
Six 
Apart, 
Technorati,  
Adobe, 
Nokia...the 
list 
goes 
on 
and 
on.

Location 
still 
matters.

Dan



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Design 
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(IxDA)!
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Jeff Seager]

Dan said: "Today's global economy is spiky. What's more, the
tallest spikes, the cities and regions that drive the world economy,
are growing ever higher while the valleys, with little economic
activity, recede still further."

Very true. A few years ago, much was made of the fact that Verizon
had established the first statewide fiber optic network here in West
Virginia. It was the "backbone" of a network, not a full-fledged
neural network, of course. The same economies of scale that
historically prevented travel through some of this state's rugged
terrain, and the same factors Dan enumerates, have prevented the
further evolution of this network and the arrival of technology
leaders we hoped it might attract.

Innovation is only a spark. To fan the flames of any new idea or
industry requires very personal, very human connections that always
have happened, and always will happen, in the places where innovative
people congregate in relatively large numbers.

That presents eager young hotshots with a choice, but it's by no
means the whole picture. Yes, I sacrifice something by not living in
such a place; and so do those who uproot themselves to travel to
whatever pseudo-Mecca they seek. If we learned nothing else from the
IBM (I've Been Moved) era of post-industrial America, we should have
learned that in the long term our peace of mind is integrally
connected to our sense of place and our social connectedness, or
cohesiveness. Is this obvious only to those of us who've studied
social anthropology and psychology?

I don't mean to be a naysayer. I just want to affirm the importance
of blooming where you're planted. Sometimes we're better off
creating opportunity than seeking it -- especially if we're dragging
a young family around with us!

If employers hold on to the notion/expectation of a global and
infinitely mobile workforce, I think in the long run they'll be
terribly disappointed. Community and society cannot sustain that or
be sustained by it, and anarchy is never a good climate for any human
enterprise -- including business.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Jack Moffett]

I'm right with you Jeff. This conversation has only reaffirmed my  
beliefs that I am much happier here in Pittsburgh than I could be in  
any of the big cities. What it really comes down to is that my  
personal life is much more important to me than my professional life.  
While I would love the opportunity to work for a company like  
Adaptive Path, IDEO, Cooper, etc., my desire to do so has never  
exceeded my desire to remain close to my family. Of course, it is a  
matter of degrees. I did move to Pittsburgh from West Virginia  
because of career-oriented opportunities (and thought at the time I  
was moving to the big city! ;)

Dan, I know you don't miss Pittsburgh, and I admit I envied you as I  
followed your blog posts covering your graduation from CMU (as I had  
done a few years earlier) and hire at Adaptive Path, but the comforts  
of owning a sizable house, a yard to play with my kids in, gardens to  
get dirty in, and a view looking down on the Ohio River valley far  
outweigh the professional benefits you have cited.

I should add that I'm currently quite satisfied with my own career  
choices. My work isn't as sexy as a lot of what's going on in Silicon  
Valley, but I still have the opportunity to work for big-name  
companies doing interesting and challenging work.

And thanks to this community, I have the opportunity to participate  
in the field at large.

Jack




Jack L. Moffett
Interaction Designer
inmedius
412.459.0310 x219
http://www.inmedius.com


Charles Eames was asked the question,
"What are the boundaries of design?"

He answered,

"What are the boundaries of problems?"

   - Charles Eames



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Scott McDaniel]

I think you're spot on with what those of us who'll step back and view
it in that way,
but it also may explain the natural flow of talent for those who consider that
direct salary-cost of living thing to be priority one.  That's sad in some ways
(opportunities missed, the field loses some people who place more
emphasis on salary),
and I don't say that in a judgmental fashion - people can consider a
particular lifestyle,
means of supporting family/themselves, proximity to family and friends, etc. all
primary concerns, and more power to them.  None of this has to
necessarily relate
to exactly where one lives (although learning more about SV, Brooklyn
and other areas
has been cool~), but are we seeking out what can help us learn, grow
and strengthen our
craft across companies, industries and regions.

Scott

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Dan Saffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I think you have to think about it as an investment in your career.
>  It's always better in the long run to be a big fish in a big pond than
>  a big fish in a small pond. In an area with limited mobility between
>  good jobs, you are likely to eventually hit a ceiling and its
>  accompanying salary cap. In places like SF/SV, Tokyo, London, New
>  York, etc. the ceiling is much higher. So yes, initially, you are
>  screwed by the cost of living, but eventually, because of the
>  connections you make and the mobility you have, you will likely do
>  better in the long run. That's the hope, at least. :)
-- 
'Life' plus 'significance' = magic. ~ Grant Morrison

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Bryan Minihan]

Very well said, Jack, I couldn't agree more.

I've been a little swamped lately, but have followed what I could of this
thread the past week, with some interest.  

I consider myself pretty well qualified in the "will move for work" domain.
My dad was a marine, so when asked where I'm from, I say "everywhere, but
specifically CA, NC, AZ, OH, VA and DC".  In 1995, I moved from NC to
Oakland to work in the corporate office for The Nature Company (RIP), then
moved to Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) and spent 4 years there. 

There's a special place in my heart for both southern and northern CA.  I
was born there, and part of me will always stay there.  On the other hand,
after 4 years, and twice yearly flights home (for 8 state east-coast
family-trip sprees), plus the INSANE cost of housing (I could deal with the
rest, having lived in VA, but I couldn't afford a house anywhere), I decided
to move back to the east coast.  

I worked in Bethesda and lived on Capitol hill, for a few years, then we (my
wife's from Boston) moved back down to NC so I could finish my degree.  That
was 2001, for some perspective on where jobs went - nowhere, really.  We're
still in the RTP area after 6 years now, and I'm with a startup whose CEO
believes in the area and has really been trying to drive the technology
culture higher.

I always used to wonder why people in dire straits don't just get up and
move to where the work is.  For a long time, that was my outlook.  Nowadays,
though, I get job offers from SV and NYC about 3 times a week, and don't
think we could do it.  My greatest drive right now (besides my work) is
finding the last house we're going to live in, preferably on Cape Cod, if
the market plays nice (it's about the beach, and we're 2 hrs away,
unfortunately).

As for why there aren't enough interaction designers (specifically), I
actually think it's because we're somewhat rare.  As others have mentioned,
formal degrees for our specific work are hard to come by, and (maybe it's
just me), I think our discipline takes a certain blend of technical savvy,
creative juices and observational skills in the same person to be
successful.  I've had a really hard time applying for agency positions who
want to put me in only one of three buckets:  usability, visual design, or
development.  I've been turned down for a few of these because they didn't
know where to put me.  Frankly, I don't know which of those I like more,
anyway.

After moving 7 times in the last 15 years, all I can say is that I've never
run out of work, anywhere.  Only once have I actually disliked the work I
was doing (that was my last job).

Bryan
http://www.bryanminihan.com

-Original Message-
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

I should add that I'm currently quite satisfied with my own career  
choices. My work isn't as sexy as a lot of what's going on in Silicon  
Valley, but I still have the opportunity to work for big-name  
companies doing interesting and challenging work.

And thanks to this community, I have the opportunity to participate  
in the field at large.

Jack



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

Andrei,
To get back to your question, if you are still listening.
1) The market is just harshin' right now.
2) Your specific criteria of combining (I'm not arguing the merits)
code & design skills in a single person/role is even harder to find.
The bulk of this generation of designers is just not trained as such.

If I were you I would recruit heavily from the "interactive design"
programs at art/design/technical schools and build the specifics of
IxD talent you need through mentorship. There is no program
concentrating on IxD or even a segment of IxD that will create the
type of designer you are looking for. 

Basically, you're going to have to breed your own.

I know you are connected with SJState, and I'm sure that you can try
to hook into Art Institute and CCA as well to find the junior talent.
There are more visual aestheticists   technologists than there are
behavioral aestheticists   technologists out there. And finding all 3
in 1 person I haven't seen in a resume in a long time and I would
love to have it!

Oh! and if I found it, I wouldn't tell you b/c I'm hiring

3) I don't think there is anything going on in SV that isn't going
on in the other hubs around the world. It might feel "worse", but
everyone is struggling. Join the pity party!

4) People have keyed in on some good issues about the way we talk
about ourselves and the issues around HR/IxD relationships that as an
org and as a community of practice we have to do a better job with.
BTW, I have been trying to settle on a definition and create firm
labels for half a decade now and well, you and I just disagree. ;)

-- dave


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[mark schraad]

Absolutely... so wish I had a second language!

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Chris Bernard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

 Although today I would argue that doing a turn in Asia for a few years is
> equally if not more valuable.
>

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 12:16 PM, dave malouf wrote:

> 1) The market is just harshin' right now.

Tell me about it.

> 2) Your specific criteria of combining (I'm not arguing the merits)
> code & design skills in a single person/role is even harder to find.
> The bulk of this generation of designers is just not trained as such.

I understand my design and skill requirements tend be harder than  
others, but I was actually asking more in general. All my friends at  
places like Apple, Google, Adobe, various startups, etc... all of  
them are saying the same thing about the designer supply/demand problem.

> If I were you I would recruit heavily from the "interactive design"
> programs at art/design/technical schools and build the specifics of
> IxD talent you need through mentorship.

Yup. Agreed.

> Oh! and if I found it, I wouldn't tell you b/c I'm hiring

This is also part of the problem. I know you meant this in jest, but  
at the same time, I think so many folks in the management side of the  
equation aren't talking to each other, so it kind of exacerbates the  
problem. No one is talking to each other due to trying to hire and  
such and it creates a larger vacuum of information to recruit within.  
I'm not sure if anything could be done about this, but just noting it  
out loud.

> 4) People have keyed in on some good issues about the way we talk
> about ourselves and the issues around HR/IxD relationships that as an
> org and as a community of practice we have to do a better job with.
> BTW, I have been trying to settle on a definition and create firm
> labels for half a decade now and well, you and I just disagree. ;)

I'm going to try and be clear as possible for the last time on this  
issue:

If you (and I mean you, the IxDA board and the IxDA community in the  
plural sense) want to collectively settle on the definition that an  
IxD practitioner is:

* Someone who designs interaction
* Someone who is technology agnostic
* Someone who is paired with a visual or graphic designer to create  
the aesthetic of the product
* Does not code or program, even at a lightweight prototyping level

Then by all means, please do so! If this is the definition, then call  
those people Interaction Designers. Be my guest! I know many  
companies and design team in Silicon Valley are already doing so.

That's not what I am and that's not what I'm looking for. I define  
myself as someone who:

* Designs interaction and workflow
* Creates and design aesthetics and visual components
* Codes front-end development as a light-weight prototyping exercise,  
in order to contribute to building what I design
* Designs digital technology, specifically interfaces and software;  
be it desktop applications, web sites, web applications, mobile  
interfaces, or software enabled appliances, like an internet enabled  
refrigerator or a digital drawing tablet with a screen interace

I have called this person an Interface Designer or Software Designer  
in the past, as that what I call myself. If the IxDA wants people who  
do the above to be called Interaction Designers, then by all means,  
be my guest! As long as they do it inclusively with that list of  
things, and exclude any aspect of it. The software industry has been  
literally BEGGING some group to lay ownership to this design position  
for more tan a decade now.

I don't have a problem with labels and job titles. As near as I can  
tell... the IxDA does, or at least people who practice the job. I  
only say this because the variance in the resumes I see are literally  
all over the map, along with the job titles, etc.

I'm more than happy to call myself an Interaction Designer if it  
includes aesthetics as core, assumes technology and software, and  
encourages building via coding since what we design at the end of the  
day are digital technology products. However, if the IxDA wants  
Interaction to be exclusive from aesthetics and building along with  
not being tied exclusively to code, then basically in the domain of  
technology products an IxD type of designer will always need to be  
paired with a team to cover the entire needs f product design.

And then, if this is indeed the case, then we simply need to  
communicate to HR folks the distinction between an Interaction  
Designer, Graphic Designer, and Interface Designer. I'll let the  
Usability and Information Architects work out their own job  
descriptions.

I personally have no problem with that. It's just I think its  
dangerous for designers to silo themselves like that in the  
technology sector, because as technology flattens even more while  
becoming even easier to implement, the need to have multiple people  
do the job of the design and the economics of building digital  
products will simply not be viable.

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422


___

Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charles B. Kreitzberg]

Andrei:

This issue of "how to define" comes up over and over and, IMO, is a can of
worms. Rather than trying for one size fits all, I would suggest that we
think about a competency model in which Joe can be a "basic designer" and
Sue has added a specialty or competence in lightweight prototyping and Sally
also has an IA competence.

Then all the designer's skills would be clear upfront.

This is how MD's do it. Every doctor has a set of basic skills and then they
specialize. Psychologists do that as well (e.g. you can get a specialization
in forensic psychology, family psych etc.).

None of this will ever be easy or free from emotion but I think we need to
be very careful about what sort of box we place ourselves in.

Charlie


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[mark schraad]

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> This is also part of the problem. I know you meant this in jest, but
> at the same time, I think so many folks in the management side of the
> equation aren't talking to each other, so it kind of exacerbates the
> problem. No one is talking to each other due to trying to hire and
> such and it creates a larger vacuum of information to recruit within.
> I'm not sure if anything could be done about this, but just noting it
> out loud.
> I really wish there was a place or discussion with even a small percentage
> of the energy here, where design management was the topic. If it is out
> there, I haven't found it.
>



> * Designs interaction and workflow
> * Creates and design aesthetics and visual components
> * Codes front-end development as a light-weight prototyping exercise,
> in order to contribute to building what I design
> * Designs digital technology, specifically interfaces and software;
> be it desktop applications, web sites, web applications, mobile
> interfaces, or software enabled appliances, like an internet enabled
> refrigerator or a digital drawing tablet with a screen interface
>

5 or 7 years ago I would have agreed that this is a solid job description.
Now I think it is a dream. Fragmentation in the these responsibilities has
not only begun, it has started to harden. And it will only continue in that
direction. The current direction in design is for collaborative teams. As
such, those teams need more specific and deeper skill sets.

I am not saying it is right or desirable, but it certainly seems the trend.

Mark

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

To that point - those of us who *have* been hiring managers in the past - if
we want things to change - we have to take responsibility for partnering
with HR/Recruiter people. I have spent many an hour on the phone just
talking about the issues, skills, mindset, background of people that might
be a match - and educating about IxD and IA along the way.

BTW: Has anyone noticed the BIG shift in the last 7 years of a whole crop of
new "recruiters" following a new business model. In essence - they have
taken the call center business model, extended it to recruiting and
outsourced it to India. All the initial job board search/keyword matching
and initial screening is done there (with US phone#, business address), and
once the initial screening is done - candidates are passed along to client
facing recruiters in based in the US. I have no idea if this is a long term
trend, but with growth in real wages in call center places like Bangalore -
I can't see this as sustainable, and it may move again to the Philippines.
Just find it interesting - no point to this I guess.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:16:09, dave malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Andrei,
> To get back to your question, if you are still listening.
> 1) The market is just harshin' right now.
> 2) Your specific criteria of combining (I'm not arguing the merits)
> code & design skills in a single person/role is even harder to find.
> The bulk of this generation of designers is just not trained as such.
>
> If I were you I would recruit heavily from the "interactive design"
> programs at art/design/technical schools and build the specifics of
> IxD talent you need through mentorship. There is no program
> concentrating on IxD or even a segment of IxD that will create the
> type of designer you are looking for.
>
> Basically, you're going to have to breed your own.
>
> I know you are connected with SJState, and I'm sure that you can try
> to hook into Art Institute and CCA as well to find the junior talent.
> There are more visual aestheticists   technologists than there are
> behavioral aestheticists   technologists out there. And finding all 3
> in 1 person I haven't seen in a resume in a long time and I would
> love to have it!
>
> Oh! and if I found it, I wouldn't tell you b/c I'm hiring
>
> 3) I don't think there is anything going on in SV that isn't going
> on in the other hubs around the world. It might feel "worse", but
> everyone is struggling. Join the pity party!
>
> 4) People have keyed in on some good issues about the way we talk
> about ourselves and the issues around HR/IxD relationships that as an
> org and as a community of practice we have to do a better job with.
> BTW, I have been trying to settle on a definition and create firm
> labels for half a decade now and well, you and I just disagree. ;)
>
> -- dave
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Posted from the new ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170
>
>
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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>



-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Matthew Nish-Lapidus]

In the many discussions (arguments?) about defining IxD this is by far
the most reasonable answer I've ever hears.

In reality, we're all going to have different specialties anyway, and
there's nothing wrong with looking for employees with specific
specialized skills, like coding, or IA, or whatever.  But in the end,
to call yourself an IxD there are certain base skills you should have.

Makes sense to me.  It's not just doctors that work like this..
lawyers, pilots, artists, .. well, basically every profession has
different subsets of specialized skills.  Why should we be any
different?



On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Charles B. Kreitzberg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Andrei:
>
>  This issue of "how to define" comes up over and over and, IMO, is a can of
>  worms. Rather than trying for one size fits all, I would suggest that we
>  think about a competency model in which Joe can be a "basic designer" and
>  Sue has added a specialty or competence in lightweight prototyping and Sally
>  also has an IA competence.
>
>  Then all the designer's skills would be clear upfront.
>
>  This is how MD's do it. Every doctor has a set of basic skills and then they
>  specialize. Psychologists do that as well (e.g. you can get a specialization
>  in forensic psychology, family psych etc.).
>
>  None of this will ever be easy or free from emotion but I think we need to
>  be very careful about what sort of box we place ourselves in.
>
>  Charlie
>
>  
>  Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
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>



-- 
Matt Nish-Lapidus
work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.bibliocommons.com
--
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Charles B. Kreitzberg wrote:

> This issue of "how to define" comes up over and over and, IMO, is a  
> can of
> worms. Rather than trying for one size fits all, I would suggest  
> that we
> think about a competency model in which Joe can be a "basic  
> designer" and
> Sue has added a specialty or competence in lightweight prototyping  
> and Sally
> also has an IA competence.

You can do that. But it will not solve the problem that people in  
this discussion have noted, that being the problem of Job Boards, how  
HR people recruit, and generally how design is factored inside the  
corporate org chart.

It's not difficult to define the thing. It really isn't. And while  
those in the trenches may not care for the discussion, it's like  
politics. You can ignore the machinations of what the GOP and  
Democrats are doing on a daily basis, but you do so at your own peril  
when one day you wake and can't recognize your own government or  
understand how it's possible your country is involved in a war  
halfway across the world that has lasted longer than World War II and  
that kills obscene numbers of people on a monthly basis.

There are three job title candidates:

Visual Designer / Graphic Designer: I think we can all agree this is  
the easiest one and is not controversial.

Interaction Designer: The only points of contention here, if there is  
one, is whether IxD does aesthetics, is tied to software type of  
products and need to learn how to code at a prototype level. I know  
most of that "contention" is my own point of view, but it cuts both  
ways. IxD has muddied the job descriptions in Silicon Valley to the  
degree that I feel it's the responsibility of those whose practice it  
to make sure everyone knows what the job is, clearly and without  
confusion. Once that clarity is brought back, there's no point of  
contention.

Interface Designer: This is someone who designs interfaces. I think  
that's pretty clear and I have stated so year over year for far too  
long now. And since interfaces include aesthetics, and necessarily  
require code to exist, I don't think there's any question that  
Interface Designers work on software or software aspects of products,  
and should train themselves to code enough to help build what they  
design.

The main issue is people swapping these titles around, which lends  
confusion on job boards and creates a sense of not being able to map  
designers to people looking to hire them. this is further exacerbated  
when you toss in Usability and IA stuff into the mix, but that's a  
pretty easy problem to solve in my opinion, as those folks clearly do  
something far different than what designers on digital products do.

> This is how MD's do it. Every doctor has a set of basic skills and  
> then they
> specialize. Psychologists do that as well (e.g. you can get a  
> specialization
> in forensic psychology, family psych etc.).

But it's well understood that Doctor's practice *medicine.* Since a  
certain part of IxDA folks are pushing the "technology agnostic"  
aspect of the field, you lose that baseline like Doctor's have.  
Imagine a "doctor" giving you advice on the "health" of your home,  
instead of your body. It's like that. imho.

So I think you could take the MD approach, if you agree that IxDA is  
tied to technology or software. Otherwise, good luck trying to make  
it work. I obviously don't have a lot of confidence in that approach.

> None of this will ever be easy or free from emotion but I think we  
> need to
> be very careful about what sort of box we place ourselves in.

Agreed. But the problem is that if you want the HR, recruiting, and  
ability to find or hire people into jobs to go way, you *have* to   
pick some box.

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charles B. Kreitzberg]

In my previous post, I should have added I completely agree with this
statement that Andrei made:

"...it's dangerous for designers to silo themselves like that in the
technology sector, because as technology flattens even more while becoming
even easier to implement, the need to have multiple people do the job of the
design and the economics of building digital products will simply not be
viable."

You bet! I believe that is what will happen if we are not careful and the
undesired result will be that we reduce our earning potential. 

Charlie


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[mark schraad]

And... the word seems to have gotten out that this position is ill defined
and pays rather well. Like Andrei, I am getting resumes that are all over
the mat and hardly qualified. Lots of people with a tech background and
absolutely no design foundation.
Mark


On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 3:52 PM, W Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> BTW: Has anyone noticed the BIG shift in the last 7 years of a whole crop
> of
> new "recruiters" following a new business model. In essence - they have
> taken the call center business model, extended it to recruiting and
> outsourced it to India.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charlie Kreitzberg]

Perhaps it's just my ignorance but I don't understand the difference
between an Interaction Designer and an Interface Designer. I don't
understand intuitively how to design interaction without designing
interfaces. I don;t understand how to do either without considering
the way that the information  I present is organized. And I doubt
that most people outside our community will either. 

As MD's practice medicine, in my view I practice the human-centered
design of the presentation layer. I realize that not everyone will
see it that way. But I do believe that we must present a simple,
seamless face to the outside world.

Andrei, you said "I think its dangerous for designers to silo
themselves like that in the technology sector, because as technology
flattens even more while becoming even easier to implement, the need
to have multiple people do the job of the design and the economics of
building digital products will simply not be viable."

I completely agree with you and that is the danger I am trying to
avoid. It's hard enough explaining to the CEO or CIO why they need
help with the users let alone trying to explain the nuances of Ux,Ix,
UI, IA, and the other elements in this alphabet soup.

One title will also help with HR and the Job Boards, IMO.

Charlie


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

As I said earlier about B&A to Christina, we need something where designers
can anon post resumes -- either B&A, or maybe here on IxDA someday.
I know we have gatekeepers on our list - but all the recruiters that
actually post here have positions that are completely relevant to the
community -- I would say over 95% relavant. We may not all like the job
descriptions, but they are a lot more relevant than a junior systems analyst
posting - or a life insurance posting.

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 4:32 PM, mark schraad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And... the word seems to have gotten out that this position is ill defined
> and pays rather well. Like Andrei, I am getting resumes that are all over
> the mat and hardly qualified. Lots of people with a tech background and
> absolutely no design foundation.
> Mark
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 3:52 PM, W Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > BTW: Has anyone noticed the BIG shift in the last 7 years of a whole
> > crop of
> > new "recruiters" following a new business model. In essence - they have
> > taken the call center business model, extended it to recruiting and
> > outsourced it to India.
>
>


-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Bryan Minihan]

The biggest consequence I have noticed with this shift is the complete lack
of tact and personal connection that comes from a recruiter who is tied to
the process, and not merely following one.

That is, half of all the offers I receive start with: URGENT, SEND ME YOUR
UPDATED (rewritten) RESUME, 3 REFS & PORTFOLIO THIS AFTERNOON! And end with
a copy/pasted job description without any context for how or why I was
pre-selected for the role.  They are almost always very short-term contracts
in places I am nowhere near, and for positions I am unqualified for, with no
rate information.

I know *why* I get these, but it's not necessarily true that every candidate
can and will drop everything at a moment's notice for a 3 month contract IA
project in Debuque, Iowa.

I hesitate to complain, because people are just doing their jobs, and I
might need to move to Iowa some day.  But still, it's a little annoying.

Bryan
http://www.bryanminihan.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of W Evans
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 3:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

BTW: Has anyone noticed the BIG shift in the last 7 years of a whole crop of
new "recruiters" following a new business model. In essence - they have
taken the call center business model, extended it to recruiting and
outsourced it to India. All the initial job board search/keyword matching
and initial screening is done there (with US phone#, business address), and
once the initial screening is done - candidates are passed along to client
facing recruiters in based in the US. I have no idea if this is a long term
trend, but with growth in real wages in call center places like Bangalore -
I can't see this as sustainable, and it may move again to the Philippines.
Just find it interesting - no point to this I guess.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:16:09, dave malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
.. http://www.ixda.org/help


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Brett Ingram]

> That is, half of all the offers I receive start with: URGENT, SEND  
> ME YOUR
> UPDATED (rewritten) RESUME, 3 REFS & PORTFOLIO THIS AFTERNOON! And  
> end with
> a copy/pasted job description without any context for how or why I was
> pre-selected for the role.  They are almost always very short-term  
> contracts
> in places I am nowhere near, and for positions I am unqualified  
> for, with no
> rate information.
>
> I know *why* I get these, but it's not necessarily true that every  
> candidate
> can and will drop everything at a moment's notice for a 3 month  
> contract IA
> project in Debuque, Iowa.

Bryan,

I think you have every right to complain. I have received the same  
type of emails - and receive them frequently. I don't think it is too  
much to ask to have some context, and for it to be worded a little  
less... impersonally.

I also think recruiters are "shooting themselves in the foot" when  
they send this kind of email. For the most part, I now ignore emails  
from recruiters who have sent this kind of email in the past. Of  
course, I'm not looking for a job right now either.

Which brings me to the original question in this discussion thread.  
What I haven't really seen anyone write is that the reason it is hard  
to find designers might be because we are happily employed and not in  
the market for a job. I live in the Bay Area and really like where I  
am working. If there truly are so many great companies for  
interaction designers in the Bay Area (or anywhere), the question  
becomes one of motivation. How do you get someone who is happily  
employed to leave his or her job, or even pay attention when someone  
contacts them about a job? It seems to me that the original question  
implied that there should be a bunch of people just waiting around  
for a great position, and I just don't buy that supposition.

Brett

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Loren Baxter]

I'd like to reiterate Dave's earlier point of a distinct lack in
career path.  Fresh out of college, the only two companies in
California I found that were willing to hire junior IxD's were
Google and Intuit.  Most other job postings had steep requirements in
terms of experience and degrees.  It's a shame that so few are
willing to train younger designers from the start.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Chris Bernard]

Perhaps there's a role for IxDA here and a way to fund its (and our 
professions) future growth. Something like the 'the deck' but for IxDA jobs? 
Perhaps this is a tender first step towards tackling broader issues and 
developing the institutional definitions and broadly accepted standards for 
what an IxDA designer is. I'll apologize in advance for re-opening that can of 
worms too. :)

http://www.coudal.com/deck/



Chris Bernard
Microsoft
User Experience Evangelist
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
630.530.4208 Office
312.925.4095 Mobile



Blog: www.designthinkingdigest.com
Design: www.microsoft.com/design
Tools: www.microsoft.com/expression
Community: http://www.visitmix.com

"The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed." William Gibson

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Baxter
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 1:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

I'd like to reiterate Dave's earlier point of a distinct lack in
career path.  Fresh out of college, the only two companies in
California I found that were willing to hire junior IxD's were
Google and Intuit.  Most other job postings had steep requirements in
terms of experience and degrees.  It's a shame that so few are
willing to train younger designers from the start.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[David Malouf]

What a great thread! This is one of the best "definitional" threads of the
last year.

Andrei, I think your articulation of the situation is both brilliant and
off. It is brilliant in that it is open for answers, and tries to give clear
choices. It is off in that it assumes that these are the only two choices,
and that they are somehow in contradiction with each other.

It is hard to know where to begin, b/c as we all know this is a very complex
problem. There are so many insertion points (some outlined in this thread).

I'd like to take on a piece of what Andrei keys in on with our conversations
and it is the notion of being "technology agnostic". ...

I believe that as interaction designers who are interested in the design of
behaviors we can apply our skills to many different arenas where the
behaviors and interactions between humans and products and humans and
systems and well products/systems with other products/systems and humans
with other humans take place.

That being said, our bread and butter, our roots, our strength, our nexus
... blah blah blah, is in the realm of the digital. However, I do not
believe that "digital" is equal to "software". If there is silicon in the
system creating further complexity through algorithms then we have an
important role. So I'm not sure this is "agnostic" or not. I like to think
of all designers as "technology agnostic" in so far as we design without
thought of technology to start, and then design towards technology, not as a
skill, but as a constraint in the design environment (this is probably true
of all designers).

Separation of presentation from behavior is the other big issue (and Charlie
jumps in on the band wagon here). ...

How many people are just builders? There are some people of Bob Vila's
classification (sorry for the US-centric reference) that do it
all--plumbing, electrical, dry-wall, carpentry, painting, foundations,
roofs, flooring, windows, appliances, interior design, architecture,
engineering, etc.? I think you all see where I'm going here. While there are
a few Bob the Builders out there, it is not our expectation that we work
this way. I mean I can't really think of a house with doors and windows and
flooring, but does every builder/contractor have to be able to do their own
flooring? Of course not. They hire our many skills (technical and aesthetic)
as they require them.

I see my role as an interaction designer, to design behaviors. To Charlie's
point, can I do that w/o visual design skills? I think the Interaction08
conference had amazing examples of people who do the behaviors, the story,
the interactions and do it well for their clients and product owners every
day, with success. I'm not referring to wireframe jockeys, but rather
behavioral designers, who understand the aesthetic frameworks that come from
designing aesthetics, calling out a message, and guiding the presentation of
products and systems.

Does this mean that everyone is an interaction designer. Hell NO!!! Just b/c
you practice interaction design doesn't mean that you ARE an interaction
designer. Well, you can if you want. but you could also be a user experience
designer, interface designer, interactive designer, industrial designer,
architect, business analyst, etc. Or you can be an interaction designer.

>From the very beginning of this organization--I think it was Josh Seiden who
strongly encouraged this direction--we said that IxDA was going to be about
a discipline that its members practice, and not about the people themselves.
In this way we can have interface designers, IAs, product designers and heck
even a few interaction designers and be inclusive. (It is so funny that you
think I'm trying to be exclusive in my conversations.)

BUT ... and this is the clincher. Doing this is all well and good, but if
you can't galvanize a clear message (Thanx Liz) around it, you might have to
re-think the strategy and the associated tactics.

I think that IxDA has done well for itself. With nearly 6000+ subscribed! on
THIS list, and who knows how many more using the web site. AND 2000+ folks
who are on the announcement list, It is clear that we are messaging
something out that is resonating with people. What exactly that nuggets is?
To be honest, I don't really know.

Andrei, I think of you as a surgeon, who is looking for the surgeons
organization among the doctors' organization. You practice surgery, which
means you practice medicine, but you only practice a small part of medicine
and you want your part to define all of medicine.

Ok, it is nearly midnight and I know i didn't pull together a coherent or
cogent point in all this, but I actually don't think i can any more. And our
website doesn't have a "save as draft" functionality. So I'm going to send
now. :)

Nighty night folks!

-- dave

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

What a great thread! This is one of the best "definitional" threads
of the last year.

Andrei, I think your articulation of the situation is both brilliant
and off. It is brilliant in that it is open for answers, and tries to
give clear choices. It is off in that it assumes that these are the
only two choices, and that they are somehow in contradiction with
each other.

It is hard to know where to begin, b/c as we all know this is a very
complex problem. There are so many insertion points (some outlined in
this thread).

I'd like to take on a piece of what Andrei keys in on with our
conversations and it is the notion of being "technology agnostic".
...

I believe that as interaction designers who are interested in the
design of behaviors we can apply our skills to many different arenas
where the behaviors and interactions between humans and products and
humans and systems and well products/systems with other
products/systems and humans with other humans take place. 

That being said, our bread and butter, our roots, our strength, our
nexus ... blah blah blah, is in the realm of the digital. However, I
do not believe that "digital" is equal to "software". If there is
silicon in the system creating further complexity through algorithms
then we have an important role. So I'm not sure this is "agnostic"
or not. I like to think of all designers as "technology agnostic" in
so far as we design without thought of technology to start, and then
design towards technology, not as a skill, but as a constraint in the
design environment (this is probably true of all designers).

Separation of presentation from behavior is the other big issue (and
Charlie jumps in on the band wagon here). ...

How many people are just builders? There are some people of Bob
Vila's classification (sorry for the US-centric reference) that do
it all--plumbing, electrical, dry-wall, carpentry, painting,
foundations, roofs, flooring, windows, appliances, interior design,
architecture, engineering, etc.? I think you all see where I'm going
here. While there are a few Bob the Builders out there, it is not our
expectation that we work this way. I mean I can't really think of a
house with doors and windows and flooring, but does every
builder/contractor have to be able to do their own flooring? Of
course not. They hire our many skills (technical and aesthetic) as
they require them.

I see my role as an interaction designer, to design behaviors. To
Charlie's point, can I do that w/o visual design skills? I think the
Interaction08 conference had amazing examples of people who do the
behaviors, the story, the interactions and do it well for their
clients and product owners every day, with success. I'm not
referring to wireframe jockeys, but rather behavioral designers, who
understand the aesthetic frameworks that come from designing
aesthetics, calling out a message, and guiding the presentation of
products and systems.

Does this mean that everyone is an interaction designer. Hell NO!!!
Just b/c you practice interaction design doesn't mean that you ARE
an interaction designer. Well, you can if you want. but you could
also be a user experience designer, interface designer, interactive
designer, industrial designer, architect, business analyst, etc. Or
you can be an interaction designer. 

>From the very beginning of this organization--I think it was Josh
Seiden who strongly encouraged this direction--we said that IxDA was
going to be about a discipline that its members practice, and not
about the people themselves. In this way we can have interface
designers, IAs, product designers and heck even a few interaction
designers and be inclusive. (It is so funny that you think I'm
trying to be exclusive in my conversations.)

BUT ... and this is the clincher. Doing this is all well and good,
but if you can't galvanize a clear message (Thanx Liz) around it,
you might have to re-think the strategy and the associated tactics.

I think that IxDA has done well for itself. With nearly 6000 
subscribed! on THIS list, and who knows how many more using the web
site. AND 2000  folks who are on the announcement list, It is clear
that we are messaging something out that is resonating with people.
What exactly that nuggets is? To be honest, I don't really know.

Andrei, I think of you as a surgeon, who is looking for the surgeons
organization among the doctors' organization. You practice surgery,
which means you practice medicine, but you only practice a small part
of medicine and you want your part to define all of medicine. 

Ok, it is nearly midnight and I know i didn't pull together a
coherent or cogent point in all this, but I actually don't think i
can any more. And our website doesn't have a "save as draft"
functionality. So I'm going to send now. :)

Nighty night folks!

-- dave



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170


_

Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 8:49 PM, David Malouf wrote:

> What a great thread! This is one of the best "definitional" threads  
> of the
> last year.

Not possible. I started the thread, remember?

> Andrei, I think your articulation of the situation is both  
> brilliant and
> off. It is brilliant in that it is open for answers, and tries to  
> give clear
> choices. It is off in that it assumes that these are the only two  
> choices,
> and that they are somehow in contradiction with each other.

I'm of the opinion that if you have a hard enough time getting even  
two job definitions right, then don't try more. Sure... there are  
other choices... but can we please keep the problem simpler until  
things get under control first?

> I believe that as interaction designers who are interested in the  
> design of
> behaviors we can apply our skills to many different arenas where the
> behaviors and interactions between humans and products and humans and
> systems and well products/systems with other products/systems and  
> humans
> with other humans take place.

That's definitely what I meant by "technology agnostic." More on this  
below.

> That being said, our bread and butter, our roots, our strength, our  
> nexus
> ... blah blah blah, is in the realm of the digital. However, I do not
> believe that "digital" is equal to "software". If there is silicon  
> in the
> system creating further complexity through algorithms then we have an
> important role.

I'm not sure how "silicon in the system creating further complexity  
through algorithms" as a distinction is really any different from  
"software." All software is at its core is basically algorithms and  
logic. In fact, learning how to create algorithms is one of the main  
classes you have to pass on the road to engineering and writing  
software. So I'm pretty sure we are saying the same thing when we  
both use "digital" as a term.

I like to use "software" because it's more readily understood outside  
the confines of engineers and people who do interface design. And  
it's a lot easier to say than "when there's silicon in the system  
creating further complexity through algorithms."

> So I'm not sure this is "agnostic" or not.

"Digital" is definitely technology specific and not agnostic in the  
sense that it separates what an interaction designer might do with an  
iPhone versus a traditional analog phone. Once you assume digital, I  
think you are very much tying yourself to technology. Specifically,  
software since it is software that allows interaction to exist in a  
meaningful way in digital products, as opposed to designing the  
interaction of something not digital.

> I like to think
> of all designers as "technology agnostic" in so far as we design  
> without
> thought of technology to start, and then design towards technology,  
> not as a
> skill, but as a constraint in the design environment (this is  
> probably true
> of all designers).

That use of the word "technology" is speaking about specific types of  
digital technology, often times software platform choices. And the  
kind of agnosticism you speak of certainly exists in all forms of  
design. Graphic designers deal with it in developing branding  
solutions, where the brand solution has to cross printed business  
systems, packaging, commercials and web promotions. It's also the  
topic of my "Think from center" presentation.

But that kind of "technology agnostic" concept is different than what  
I meant by using the phrase. Again... more on that below.

> Does this mean that everyone is an interaction designer. Hell NO!!!  
> Just b/c
> you practice interaction design doesn't mean that you ARE an  
> interaction
> designer. Well, you can if you want. but you could also be a user  
> experience
> designer, interface designer, interactive designer, industrial  
> designer,
> architect, business analyst, etc. Or you can be an interaction  
> designer.

Exactly.

But this is the problem. People are now basically swapping what  
*used* to be called "interface" design or even "user experience"  
design with "interaction" design and calling it a day. That has to  
stop. All it's doing is creating a lot more confusion in the job  
market where there was already confusion from the folks who dropped  
in and used any number of job titles they felt like that month in the  
late 1990s.

(And then in the future once it's all sorted out, I can write a  
thread called "Where are all the Interface Designers" and people will  
know I mean "interface designers" and not "interaction designers."  
And heck, some of the interaction designers in the list when I write  
that can see what skills they would need to develop or learn to  
become an interface designer if they perceive an overload of  
interaction designers in the field and a lack of interface designers.  
Win win!)

> BUT ... and this is the clincher. Doing this is all well and good,  
> but if
> you can't galvanize a clear messag

Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Scott McDaniel]

I think many are getting ideas on an upper level, but not how they
relates to the more
junior levels.  And/or there are paths to get to that route now, even
if not ideally
centralized on precisely what IxD "is."  Not that we apparently know that well.


On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:59:48, Loren Baxter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd like to reiterate Dave's earlier point of a distinct lack in
>  career path.  Fresh out of college, the only two companies in
>  California I found that were willing to hire junior IxD's were
>  Google and Intuit.  Most other job postings had steep requirements in
>  terms of experience and degrees.  It's a shame that so few are
>  willing to train younger designers from the start.
>
>
>
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>  Posted from the new ixda.org
>  http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170
>
>
>  
>
>
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>  To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>  List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
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>



-- 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Todd Zaki Warfel]

Start your own firm, live where you want.

Yes, it's hard work finding business, but if you're dedicated and  
willing to cut your teeth on some less sexy work for a while, after  
2-3 years, it really won't matter where you live. Our firm is based  
out of Philadelphia (lots of culture, affordable housing, great food,  
history, little over an hour from NYC and DC) and have two clients  
here in Philly and all the rest are across the country in NYC,  
Chicago, LA, Denver, and even the south.

While I think NC is beautiful, I simply couldn't live there—there's  
not enough culture for me. I ran into the same thing while I was up at  
Cornell in Ithaca. I loved the natural beauty, but the lack of culture  
killed it for me.

Cheers!

Todd Zaki Warfel
President, Design Researcher
Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.
--
Contact Info
Voice:  (215) 825-7423
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog:   http://toddwarfel.com
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Bryan Minihan]

>From another perspective, I've been thinking it would be nice if careers
like ours (highly visual, many different disciplines, clearly discernable
results) couldn't benefit from a site like IMDB.  You know...you go there to
find out what an actor's film credits are, and if you recognize it or want
to learn more, go get the film to watch them work.

More and more these days, my resume cannot possibly reflect the breadth and
depth of my work, and my portfolio only (at best) represents snapshots in
time of my projects.  If I had a single chronological database to list my
projects and let others associate themselves with those projects, recruiters
and others could see how big some of these projects are and get a better
picture of what I (and my fellow team mates - whether they're developers,
designers, human factors, managers, testers, etc) can do.  They could also
see growth over time better than I could represent it in my resume ("I can't
believe she worked on Pets.com...but then she moved on to Basecamp, how cool
is that!").  Then, my resume could focus on the business results, and link
to IxDB for the full story of my work.  

It's just an idea, but I envy those folks in the movie industry =]

Bryan
http://www.bryanminihan.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Bernard
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:48 PM
To: Loren Baxter; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

Perhaps there's a role for IxDA here and a way to fund its (and our
professions) future growth. Something like the 'the deck' but for IxDA jobs?
Perhaps this is a tender first step towards tackling broader issues and
developing the institutional definitions and broadly accepted standards for
what an IxDA designer is. I'll apologize in advance for re-opening that can
of worms too. :)

http://www.coudal.com/deck/



Chris Bernard
Microsoft
User Experience Evangelist
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
630.530.4208 Office
312.925.4095 Mobile


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Matthew Nish-Lapidus]

Hi,

Dave, you've said things like this is the past on the list, and while
I understand what you're saying conceptually, there's some fuzziness
because of the comparatively young age of IxD.

A lot of people here started off as other types of designers, or as
other things all together... so if you start your career as an
interface designer, or an interface developer and want to become and
interaction designer, at what point do you stop being an interface
designer that does some interaction design and become an interaction
designer that does some interface design?

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:49 PM, David Malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Does this mean that everyone is an interaction designer. Hell NO!!! Just b/c
>  you practice interaction design doesn't mean that you ARE an interaction
>  designer. Well, you can if you want. but you could also be a user experience
>  designer, interface designer, interactive designer, industrial designer,
>  architect, business analyst, etc. Or you can be an interaction designer.


-- 
Matt Nish-Lapidus
work:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.bibliocommons.com
--
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Bryan Minihan]

I agree with you regarding NC.we have our culture fans who claim we DO have
culture, and it's here, but sprinkled around and nowhere near as rich as the
larger areas, Philadelphia included.  It's not why people move here, though,
and I have the exact same feeling about Philadelphia.  I have plenty of
designer/UCD friends up there, and my wife and I seriously considered moving
there for the reasons you mention.  The two biggest problems for us were a)
it's not close enough to what we'd call "a good beach" and b) it's closer to
her family (in Boston) than NC but not close enough for the support we're
looking for.

 

People have different priorities and reasons for being where they are and
going where they do.  I'm slowly inching my way towards adopting the "be
your own boss" path, but I'm from a "company shop" family and have a really
hard time releasing my need to identify with a company to learn the art of
finding business leads and networking.  I'm getting better, but it's tough,
and takes time to get used to.  More likely than not, I'll be forced to jump
in with both feet when something pushes me in that direction (another
downturn in the market most likely).  

 

Bryan

http://www.bryanminihan.com

 

From: Todd Zaki Warfel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:36 AM
To: Bryan Minihan
Cc: 'Jack Moffett'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

 

Start your own firm, live where you want. 

 

Yes, it's hard work finding business, but if you're dedicated and willing to
cut your teeth on some less sexy work for a while, after 2-3 years, it
really won't matter where you live. Our firm is based out of Philadelphia
(lots of culture, affordable housing, great food, history, little over an
hour from NYC and DC) and have two clients here in Philly and all the rest
are across the country in NYC, Chicago, LA, Denver, and even the south. 

 

While I think NC is beautiful, I simply couldn't live there-there's not
enough culture for me. I ran into the same thing while I was up at Cornell
in Ithaca. I loved the natural beauty, but the lack of culture killed it for
me.


Cheers!

 

Todd Zaki Warfel

President, Design Researcher

Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.

--

Contact Info

Voice:  (215) 825-7423

Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Blog:http://toddwarfel <http://toddwarfel/> .com

--

In theory, theory and practice are the same.

In practice, they are not.

 


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Chris Bernard]

Wow that's a really interesting idea. IMDB is kind of the 'LinkedIn' for the 
entertainment profession.

Chris Bernard
Microsoft
User Experience Evangelist
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
630.530.4208 Office
312.925.4095 Mobile



Blog: www.designthinkingdigest.com
Design: www.microsoft.com/design
Tools: www.microsoft.com/expression
Community: http://www.visitmix.com

"The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed." William Gibson

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Minihan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:43 AM
To: Chris Bernard; 'Loren Baxter'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

>From another perspective, I've been thinking it would be nice if careers
like ours (highly visual, many different disciplines, clearly discernable
results) couldn't benefit from a site like IMDB.  You know...you go there to
find out what an actor's film credits are, and if you recognize it or want
to learn more, go get the film to watch them work.

More and more these days, my resume cannot possibly reflect the breadth and
depth of my work, and my portfolio only (at best) represents snapshots in
time of my projects.  If I had a single chronological database to list my
projects and let others associate themselves with those projects, recruiters
and others could see how big some of these projects are and get a better
picture of what I (and my fellow team mates - whether they're developers,
designers, human factors, managers, testers, etc) can do.  They could also
see growth over time better than I could represent it in my resume ("I can't
believe she worked on Pets.com...but then she moved on to Basecamp, how cool
is that!").  Then, my resume could focus on the business results, and link
to IxDB for the full story of my work.

It's just an idea, but I envy those folks in the movie industry =]

Bryan
http://www.bryanminihan.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Bernard
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:48 PM
To: Loren Baxter; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

Perhaps there's a role for IxDA here and a way to fund its (and our
professions) future growth. Something like the 'the deck' but for IxDA jobs?
Perhaps this is a tender first step towards tackling broader issues and
developing the institutional definitions and broadly accepted standards for
what an IxDA designer is. I'll apologize in advance for re-opening that can
of worms too. :)

http://www.coudal.com/deck/



Chris Bernard
Microsoft
User Experience Evangelist
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
630.530.4208 Office
312.925.4095 Mobile


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Todd Zaki Warfel]

On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Matthew Nish-Lapidus wrote:

> at what point do you stop being an interface designer that does some  
> interaction design and become an interaction designer that does some  
> interface design?

You don't. There's overlap. It's nearly impossible to do interaction  
design without doing some interface design—the reverse is also true.  
They're co-dependent on each other. If you're designing the interface,  
then you're going to start getting into the weeds of interaction.  
Likewise, if you're designing the interaction, you're going to start  
getting into the weeds of the interface.

Now, you might hand that off to someone else to spit and polish, but  
in reality, you can't do one w/o impacting the other.


Cheers!

Todd Zaki Warfel
President, Design Researcher
Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.
--
Contact Info
Voice:  (215) 825-7423
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog:   http://toddwarfel.com
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

"Now, you might hand that off to someone else to spit and polish, but
in reality, you can't do one w/o impacting the other."

As much as I try to limit the definitions of the practice, I can't limit the
practitioner. Depending on what I am working on - I may do nothing more than
interview people, do user research and write personas. I might do just
wirerframes based on functional specs and requirements. I might do
Wireframes and interaction design. Right now I am doing wireframes,
interaction design, visual design (yep!), and coding the front end html and
css -- because in a room with 3 other people, thats it - and they are all
hard core SE, I am the only one that can. So huge overlap. And I wouldn't
want it any other way.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Todd Zaki Warfel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Matthew Nish-Lapidus wrote:
>
> > at what point do you stop being an interface designer that does some
> > interaction design and become an interaction designer that does some
> > interface design?
>
> You don't. There's overlap. It's nearly impossible to do interaction
> design without doing some interface design—the reverse is also true.
> They're co-dependent on each other. If you're designing the interface,
> then you're going to start getting into the weeds of interaction.
> Likewise, if you're designing the interaction, you're going to start
> getting into the weeds of the interface.
>
> Now, you might hand that off to someone else to spit and polish, but
> in reality, you can't do one w/o impacting the other.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Todd Zaki Warfel
> President, Design Researcher
> Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.
> --
> Contact Info
> Voice:  (215) 825-7423
> Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Blog:   http://toddwarfel.com
> --
> In theory, theory and practice are the same.
> In practice, they are not.
>
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
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>



-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Todd Zaki Warfel]

On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:55 AM, Bryan Minihan wrote:

> I agree with you regarding NC…we have our culture fans who claim we  
> DO have culture, and it’s here, but sprinkled around and nowhere  
> near as rich as the larger areas, Philadelphia included.  It’s not  
> why people move here, though, and I have the exact same feeling  
> about Philadelphia.

And just to be clear, NC does have culture, just not the kind of  
culture I need. Likewise, the diverse culture of a large city isn't  
for everyone. My family is split between LA and a small town in  
Indiana. My parents and younger sister don't want/need/desire the  
diverse culture of a large coastal city day-to-day. My older sister  
does inner-city work and is steeped in it. My in-laws are Egyptian  
immigrants, so I've got mountains of a different culture several times  
a month and love it.

There are things I really like about Philadelphia and things I don't.  
But until I buy my own island and design my own community, I think  
I'll always have a love-hate relationship wherever I live :).

> [...]I’m slowly inching my way towards adopting the “be your own  
> boss” path, but I’m from a “company shop” family and have a really  
> hard time releasing my need to identify with a company to learn the  
> art of finding business leads and networking.

It's not for everyone. Lots of people should never start their own  
company—the paperwork alone will drown you. But if you can handle the  
paperwork, or outsource it, and are disciplined enough to stay  
scheduled and balance hunting down work with doing the work, then it's  
something to consider.


Cheers!

Todd Zaki Warfel
President, Design Researcher
Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.
--
Contact Info
Voice:  (215) 825-7423
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog:   http://toddwarfel.com
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Todd Zaki Warfel]

On Feb 22, 2008, at 10:19 AM, W Evans wrote:

> So huge overlap. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

That's why I love my job.


Cheers!

Todd Zaki Warfel
President, Design Researcher
Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.
--
Contact Info
Voice:  (215) 825-7423
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog:   http://toddwarfel.com
--
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[David Malouf]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Matthew Nish-Lapidus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Dave, you've said things like this is the past on the list, and while
> I understand what you're saying conceptually, there's some fuzziness
> because of the comparatively young age of IxD.


Are we really that Young? I mean the term has been floated around for
decades at this point? Yes, we are relatively young compared to  graphic or
industrial design, but I really feel we gotta get over this problem. It's
like some out of college who doesn't take responsibility for their taxes b/c
they are "young". Feels like a crock at this point, no? I'm not picking on
your Matt, but on the entire community. I think the best way to grow up is
to act like it, no?

A lot of people here started off as other types of designers, or as
> other things all together... so if you start your career as an
> interface designer, or an interface developer and want to become and
> interaction designer, at what point do you stop being an interface
> designer that does some interaction design and become an interaction
> designer that does some interface design?


I Think Todd is right that there is overlap. But I do believe that there are
umbrellas and there are distinctions.
So for me an "interaction designER" is someone who's primary focus is on
"interaction design". So for me, this fits nicely, but also not completely
accurrately as I also do "experience planning" which to me is a very
strategic engagement but some would call "interaction design" out right.
About 60% of my job though is "interaction design". I do direction of UI
Design (the presentation layer) and I also do research and planning in the
remaining 40% (not counting administrative stuff). for me I see my pole of
my "T shape" as "interaction design", so I call myself an "interaction
design". I will say though that the more experienced I become and the
"higher up" I go in the chain the more strategic my work becomes and it
becomes more about the total experience, than about the "interactions" or
'behaviors" of the solutions I work on.

Is the solution to the issue to say that everyone should call themselves
"X", like lawyer or doctor? Maybe, but I'm not convinced yet. There are so
many different environments and different cultures and I'm not sure one
solution fits all. Even in industrial design, you get industrial designer,
product designer, and even a few others. Graphic designers also have
"information designer", "communications designer", "typographer", etc.

-- dave



>
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:49 PM, David Malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Does this mean that everyone is an interaction designer. Hell NO!!!
> Just b/c
> >  you practice interaction design doesn't mean that you ARE an
> interaction
> >  designer. Well, you can if you want. but you could also be a user
> experience
> >  designer, interface designer, interactive designer, industrial
> designer,
> >  architect, business analyst, etc. Or you can be an interaction
> designer.
>
>
> --
> Matt Nish-Lapidus
> work:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.bibliocommons.com
> --
> personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>



-- 
David Malouf
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixda.org/
http://motorola.com/

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[diarmad]

> it would be nice if careers couldn't benefit from a site like IMDB

I have found www.linkedin.com to be adequate for this job though I realise its 
usefulnes is highly dependent on having a dense network in your geographical 
area, e.g. many London clients have found me through this site but most of my 
Dublin clients are not registered.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

Ok, back to Andrei ...

Digital vs. Software. Ok, then we are in agreement. I was thinking of
"software" more specifically, meaning that which is presented
through a screen, but if you want software to mean anything running
through silicon, great. Of course, a lot happens on the firmware
level and I'm not sure you expect prototypers to be working on
firmware when they are doing prototyping, right? I was thinking of
software as that which is "touchable" by the end-user, and exists
within UI Frameworks, not all software. I mean my car has software,
but I don't really think of it is "soft" as it is all embedded on
ROMs. Even my Radio/CD player/iPod Interface in my Car has a
"screen" of LEDs, but I wouldn't consider this "software design"
though it is definitely in the realm of non-production prototyping,
really easily (BTW, this horrible system is an example of the
eco-system design most needing of an interaction designer and NOT an
interface designer, but that's a long story.)

But if in your mind, its all "software" then we are in agreement
about scope. We are also in agreement about the "agnostic" piece as
well. 

Part of the reason for my take is that I just got out of a
conversation with my manager who was reacting to my piece on Core77
based on his 20-30 odd years experience as a practicing industrial
designer where "interactions" was a core component to the solutions
he worked on, whether it was a vacuum cleaner, a bank teller machine,
or many other devices that were designed and used way before the
ubiquity of the transistor in everything in the world.

I think the other aspect of the discussion is that I think, knowing
what you expect in terms of coding skills, you are limiting your
hiring to people who work on "screen software" design. I mean, what
is the purpose of having good PHP/JavaScript skills if you are
designing a TV remote control. You'll never be doing the type of
prototyping you have discussed in previous postings. You CAN! do
prototyping of a remote control with those skills, but they would not
be at the level of fidelity that I've heard you mention before. They
would be more akin to abstractions, and not representative of
real-use, so I think that is what has skewed my interpretation of
your message of "software".

But it sounds like we are good! Now I'm sure there are others on
this list who would like to think of interaction design more
generically. But I think once you leave the digital world of some
sort of transistors, you are just talking about "design" generally
or maybe 'experience' design.

We'll see.

-- dave

-- dave


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Mary Austin-Keller]

I think this is a serious problem with both our area and the general
software industry.  There are so few junior job postings.  Most are for 3-5
years or more.  Yet, how do you get those 3-5 years without year 1!  Yes, I
have 3-5 years experience, but I think we all are doing ourselves a
disservice by not hiring junior folks.  If you're out there hiring, try to
consider a junior position, even as a contractor position if necessary.
It'll make your senior folks happier, as they can grow in their management
skills plus ensure that when you really do need someone with experience,
they're out there to find. Not to mention that in a few years, you'll have
that senior person who you KNOW can do the job.

Unfortunately I'm not the one who hires in my company, so I can only send
out this e-mail and hope others can. :)

Cheers,
~Mary
--
Mary Austin-Keller
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 2/21/08 6:59 PM, "Loren Baxter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'd like to reiterate Dave's earlier point of a distinct lack in
> career path.  Fresh out of college, the only two companies in
> California I found that were willing to hire junior IxD's were
> Google and Intuit.  Most other job postings had steep requirements in
> terms of experience and degrees.  It's a shame that so few are
> willing to train younger designers from the start.
> 
> 
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Posted from the new ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[W Evans]

"Yet, how do you get those 3-5 years without year 1!  Yes, I
have 3-5 years experience, but I think we all are doing ourselves a
disservice by not hiring junior folks.  If you're out there hiring, try to
consider a junior position, even as a contractor position if necessary."

I knwo businesses are out to make a profit - obviously - but I concur and
think we have an obligation, just like the old craft/guilds - since this is
a practice and craft - to bring on and train up junior and entry level
designers. We have a moral responsibility also to speak, give workshops, and
help each other grow the profession. I am not calling for anything formal
like a code of conduct, or codified practice-community volunteers - but if
we can - not only should we - we must.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Mary Austin-Keller <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I think this is a serious problem with both our area and the general
> software industry.  There are so few junior job postings.  Most are for
> 3-5
> years or more.  Yet, how do you get those 3-5 years without year 1!  Yes,
> I
> have 3-5 years experience, but I think we all are doing ourselves a
> disservice by not hiring junior folks.  If you're out there hiring, try to
> consider a junior position, even as a contractor position if necessary.
> It'll make your senior folks happier, as they can grow in their management
> skills plus ensure that when you really do need someone with experience,
> they're out there to find. Not to mention that in a few years, you'll have
> that senior person who you KNOW can do the job.
>
> Unfortunately I'm not the one who hires in my company, so I can only send
> out this e-mail and hope others can. :)
>
> Cheers,
> ~Mary
> --
> Mary Austin-Keller
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> On 2/21/08 6:59 PM, "Loren Baxter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I'd like to reiterate Dave's earlier point of a distinct lack in
> > career path.  Fresh out of college, the only two companies in
> > California I found that were willing to hire junior IxD's were
> > Google and Intuit.  Most other job postings had steep requirements in
> > terms of experience and degrees.  It's a shame that so few are
> > willing to train younger designers from the start.
> >
> >
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> > Posted from the new ixda.org
> > http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26170
> >
> >
> > 
> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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>
>
> 
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-- 
~ will

"No matter how beautiful,
no matter how cool your interface,
it would be better if there were less of it."
Alan Cooper
-
"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"
---
will evans
user experience architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

One of the things I've been exposed to at Motorola is our HR thinking
in terms of the industrial design group. Recruitment is a journey that
often begins with bachelor corporate sponsored projects at schools
that the management have deep relationships with. 

I mention this b/c in the software world, I have seen little college
outreach like this except from the big boys (and not in design, only
in engineering), and NONE from agencies/consultancies. It seems that
creating relationships early and often is a great recruitment
practice and often pays itself back:

corporate sponsored projects with programs of interest
Internships
college outreach
Jr. hiring
...

These are key elements for us to creating the type of eco-system of
career development. It's done every day already. why not us?

-- dave


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

> On 2/21/08 6:59 PM, "Loren Baxter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to reiterate Dave's earlier point of a distinct lack in
>> career path.  Fresh out of college, the only two companies in
>> California I found that were willing to hire junior IxD's were
>> Google and Intuit.  Most other job postings had steep requirements in
>> terms of experience and degrees.  It's a shame that so few are
>> willing to train younger designers from the start.



On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:58 AM, Mary Austin-Keller wrote:

> I think this is a serious problem with both our area and the general
> software industry.  There are so few junior job postings.  Most are  
> for 3-5
> years or more.  Yet, how do you get those 3-5 years without year  
> 1!  Yes, I
> have 3-5 years experience, but I think we all are doing ourselves a
> disservice by not hiring junior folks.  If you're out there hiring,  
> try to
> consider a junior position, even as a contractor position if  
> necessary.
> It'll make your senior folks happier, as they can grow in their  
> management
> skills plus ensure that when you really do need someone with  
> experience,
> they're out there to find. Not to mention that in a few years,  
> you'll have
> that senior person who you KNOW can do the job.

FWIW... Involution is looking for both senior and junior level folks,  
although we only post officially for senior level positions. Just be  
ready to reset your expectations on salary and such. And be ready to  
get tossed into the water cold without easing in. The market moves so  
fast these days that people look for senior positions because the  
timelines have gotten out of control on the speed to market issue.

But you guys are right. It's definitely a big problem and needs to be  
corrected in our industry.

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charlie Kreitzberg]

Liz, you asked:

%u201CSo, what are some of the best means we (IxDA) could employ to
communicate the IxD message & self-definition with recruiters, HR
departments, education, business leaders, etc.?%u201D

I think that is a very important question. It cuts to the core of
what IxDA must do if it is to become the spokes-organization for our
profession.  I think there are real dangers here. Andrei Herasimchuk
said it clearly in a recent post:

"...it's dangerous for designers to silo themselves %u2026 because
%u2026 the need to have multiple people do the job of the design and
the economics of building digital products will simply not be
viable."

In other words, we will get to the point where companies simply want
to add a %u201Cuser friendly%u201D person to the team. Not an
interaction designer, a usability specialist, an information
architect, and a visual designer. These distinctions are too fine for
the external facing world; they only serve to confuse.

How do we get to a simple job description? Here are my top 10 ideas
(for today):

1.  Acknowledge that our external facing position needs to be simple
and comprehensible to a non-practitioner.

2.  Select a simple term that encompasses the profession of designing
the presentation layer and use it consistently. Call it
human-centered design (my choice) or user experience design, or user
friendly design or usability or come up with another term, it does
not really matter. But make certain that whatever term we select
resonates with those who manage businesses and hire.

3.  Change %u201CI am%u201D to %u201CI do.%u201D Instead of saying
%u201CI am an interaction designer or I am a usability
professional,%u201D say (for example) %u201CI am a human-centered
designer or a user experience designer.  I do interaction design,
information architecture and usability testing but I do not do visual
design.%u201D Of course, modify the %u201CI do%u2019s%u201D to suit
each individual%u2019s skill set.

4.  Get together with the other human-centered associations and work
on #2 together. Get over the politics and work with the key
organizations to define the human-centered design profession. While
we are at it, we may want to include the business analysts and
technical writers. Later we can focus on the differences among us but
not until we have a unified way to present ourselves to the outside
world.

5.  Think big about IxD. It is easy to make the mistake of putting
ourselves in a box that will limit us later, thinking we are
distinguishing ourselves from the competition. I see IxD as having
responsibility for the conceptual design of the product, its
usability and the overall user experience. Be prepared to lead and
realize that the profession is evolving under out feet %u2013
don%u2019t fall into the trap of narrow thinking.

6.  Get clear about the theory and foundation of our profession. In
this regard, I have come to realize that we come from different
backgrounds and have not fully integrated with each other. For
example, I am perhaps typical of the older designer: a cognitive
psychologist with a computer science background and I identify
strongly with the usability profession. Many Ix Designers have come
through design schools, hold an MFA or similar degree and identify
with the design professions. That is all to the good. But we need to
integrate our thinking to include both design and cognitive
psychology.

7.  Bring the developers in. At the end of the day, it is the
developers who will create what we design. We need to help them
understand the value we bring to them and how we fit into their
world.

8.  Define process and best practice. We need this not only for
ourselves but to integrate our work into the larger product
development cycle.

9.  Build and use metrics. We are unique among the design professions
in that we have a tool to measure the quality of our designs %u2013
it%u2019s usability testing. If you are a good designer, then you
should be able to demonstrate that empirically. I realize this is an
oversimplification and not complete. But at the end of the day, that
is how we can ensure quality.

10. Learn about business. We will always be working with MBA%u2019s
as well as developers. Part of our role is to bridge the divide
between them. To do that we need to understand both worlds.

It is clear from the many posts on this topic and on the IxDA list in
general that there is a great deal of interest in defining who we are
and what we do. We need to do is to move beyond the discussion into
constructive action. And, IMO, we need to be cognizant of the fact
that this is a dangerous process. We need to get it right. Once we do
that, we need to educate the HR folks so that they understand who we
are and what we are about %u2013 but that%u2019s a topic for another
day.

Best,

Charlie



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charlie Kreitzberg]

Sorry about the %u2013 in the post above. I believe those are
quotation marks.

Charlie


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:38 AM, dave malouf wrote:

> Digital vs. Software. Ok, then we are in agreement. I was thinking of
> "software" more specifically, meaning that which is presented
> through a screen, but if you want software to mean anything running
> through silicon, great.

Yes. Also, as a point of clarification, the television remote example  
to me can be treated in the same way I think of different levels of  
software.

Web sites are basically software, but very limited in interaction  
possibilities until recently, as accepted forms of Javascript  
interaction have become more of the norm. The amount of and type of  
design that goes into web sites without Javascript to supplement the  
interaction possibilities is an order of degree less than what goes  
into designing a desktop application. That's not meant as a  
qualitative assessment on the differences in designing a web site  
versus desktop applications. It's just a way to understand scale and  
scope of what's possible with the platform choice.

I tend to focus most of my attention on software with screens, but  
software is software, even if it lacks a robust screen display. The  
television remote example is one that has levels depending on how  
robust the television display is used in conjunction with the remote.  
The more the television screen is used, like with a TiVO, the more it  
becomes a higher order of interface design.

Further, As an interface designer, one has to be very well aware of  
both the limitations of the platform one is designing on, as well as  
what kind of input model is being used, even the hardware. I think a  
lot of that got lost in the web craze.

Let's return to one of the core input interactions of the interface  
design for so long: Cut, Copy and Paste. It just so happens that C  
and X are right next to each other on the keyboard in the lower left  
quadrant, making it convenient to assign a mnemonic to Copy and Cut  
while also making it easy to use with one hand. But V? Not really a  
mnemonic. It as only chosen because it was easy to reach and right  
near the X and C keys. That kind of understanding of the hardware and  
input device and how it needs to be used within the software is  
fairly critical with interface design.

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

Andrei, I understand your problem, but hiring junior staff without
first putting in protections for them is a huge waste of time. 

I realize that small orgs like yours have limited resources, but
maybe that just means, stick w/ sr. staff. the "cold water"
approach is just "mean" IMHO and as human centered empathetic
people, you'd think we would want to treat all aspects of our human
capital with the same respect we give to our end-users, no? 

I don't mean to really pick on Andrei here. Way! too many
organizations big and small do not have good career path planning and
follow the "cold water" model. It just leads to failure time and
time again, and actually becomes a drain on management resources in
other ways, as well as direct out-of-pocket expenses due to overly
high attrition rates. The Ad World is famous for Jr. level burnout in
the creative space.

What can orgs like Andrei's do to get the human capital they need
and get the high pressure jobs done that they are competing for? I
know a lot of orgs that REFUSE to take on the pressure of their
clients. What they are doing is taking the pressure off their own
internal corps and putting it outside. They aren't willing to feel
the pain themselves, so they hire it out. In a sense, Andrei, you are
just being colonized by "the man" when you take on projects like
those. Not ALL projects are at this high pace, and not all
organizations are putting "time to market" first. *See Alan
Cooper's keynote for more*.

-- dave

-- dave


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dmitry Nekrasovski]

Amen Dave.

An organization that claims to practice human-centric design without
having a human-centric approach to developing its people is either
hypocritical, or has misplaced its priorities, or both.

Dmitry

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:11:01, dave malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Andrei, I understand your problem, but hiring junior staff without
>  first putting in protections for them is a huge waste of time.
>
>  I realize that small orgs like yours have limited resources, but
>  maybe that just means, stick w/ sr. staff. the "cold water"
>  approach is just "mean" IMHO and as human centered empathetic
>  people, you'd think we would want to treat all aspects of our human
>  capital with the same respect we give to our end-users, no?

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Anjali R Arora]

I think Dave has put this very well. This fact is often times overlooked in our 
focus on the obvious competitive elements ( we'll do it faster, cheaper, etc)

This was what i was telling a colleague this morning explaining my skepticism 
of UXD managers who have not practiced the discipline themselves. I can't tell 
you how many times in my contract work I have worked with UX team leads who are 
clueless about how designers create; hence, when push comes to shove, the shove 
usually being absurd deadlines or pushback from developers, design is usually 
the first casualty. More so when the UX manager himself/herself has no 
convictions regarding design, coming as they are from the project management 
side or development side of things. The latter to my mind is also a huge 
problem with the state of the industry right now: not enough qualified UX 
managers out there.

-Anjali

- Original Message -
From: dave malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I realize that small orgs like yours have limited resources, but
> maybe that just means, stick w/ sr. staff. the "cold water"
> approach is just "mean" IMHO and as human centered empathetic
> people, you'd think we would want to treat all aspects of our human
> capital with the same respect we give to our end-users, no? 
> 
> I don't mean to really pick on Andrei here. Way! too many
> organizations big and small do not have good career path planning and
> follow the "cold water" model. It just leads to failure time and
> time again, and actually becomes a drain on management resources in
> other ways, as well as direct out-of-pocket expenses due to overly
> high attrition rates. The Ad World is famous for Jr. level burnout in
> the creative space.
> 

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

Hi Charlie,
I shuddered when I read your top 10.
I wrote 5 pages and deleted all b/c I was really upset when writing
it.

I think that you need to re-think the above in the context of IxDA a
bit more. The pull to generalize and break down walls feels noble,
but it is in that light of UPA and CHI trying to own UX that IxDA was
born. It didn't work and doesn't work b/c it doesn't respect the
REAL differentiation of culture and practice and discipline that
exists among *designers* from other parts of the UX puzzle.

The other big piece is that people ARE succeeding as interaction
designers who partner with form makers/designers and engineers. Your
supposition that it is just about the "interface" is wrong. i agree
w/ Andrei's approach b/c he thinks about it from the direction of his
practice, but I disagree with the approach when thinking about the
discipline of interaction design. The model does not scale across all
practices and all cultural types. There is great need to have experts
in behavior separate from expert in form and thus there is a definite
definable discipline called "interaction design" separate from
research, structure (IA), form, and validation. They all inform and
guide each other, but they are not each other.

It seems that you are looking for a UXNet model. They are about to up
the ante on their message and value proposition, so your message may
be more in line with theirs.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:38 AM, Dmitry Nekrasovski wrote:

> An organization that claims to practice human-centric design without
> having a human-centric approach to developing its people is either
> hypocritical, or has misplaced its priorities, or both.


Ok... hold on one quick minute... Now you guys are being borderline  
offensive.

Involution being small and working with high profile clients in  
Silicon Valley companies, is looking for junior level people who  
actually want to be tossed into the water and allowed to let nothing  
hold them back except their drive and their raw passion for how much  
they want to learn and grow. I'm more than happy to help people learn  
what takes most 4-6 years in academic environments in 1-2 years, but  
I simply don't have the time or the ability to ease people into this  
stuff. You have to hit the ground running. And this is only the case  
when the background of the designer is lacking in specific training  
for a specific skill needed to address whatever design problem they  
are up against.

Translation: If you never learned how to use Illustrator to draw  
wireframes docs, be very ready to do so very quickly if you work with  
me because our wireframes are actual large format posters that have  
high print production values. If you never learned how to use  
Photoshop to make pixel-perfect screen comps that can actually  
confuse even yourself that you are looking at the real product from  
time to time, then be very ready to learn how to do so as that's part  
of our design process. And if you never learned how to code HTML+CSS 
+JS, get ready to learn some of that as well very quickly, as I'm  
looking for designers who want to get under the hood and tinker with  
their work, not simply be confined to drawing mockups and throwing  
them over the wall to someone else. So if you don't have some of  
those skills or didn't get a chance to learn specific ones at other  
jobs or at school, all I'm saying is you'd be on a fast path to catch  
up and gain them at Involution.

Is that right for everyone? No. Could I take a different approach if  
Involution weren't in Silicon Valley? Probably. But at the same time,  
I'm only asking people to work how I work, and to get up to speed as  
fast as humanly possible.

But to make some wild implications I'm some ogre is way over the line.

-- 
Andrei Herasimchuk

Principal, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. +1 408 306 6422

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Cindy Alvarez]

WOW.  I missed Dave's original comment and all I can say is, wow.  I'm
certainly glad that my early jobs didn't seek to "protect" me from learning
a lot, and quickly.

There are certainly some things I wouldn't throw at junior staff.
High-pressure client-facing meetings is one of them.
...Actually, I can't think of a lot more.   I've been very happy with the
ability that the smart people I've hired have shown to turn problems into
design solutions, and if that means reading a bunch of books or learning a
new software tool or skill to have the framework to come up with that
solution, that's what they do.

Cindy

dave malouf wrote:

the "cold water"
approach is just "mean" IMHO and as human centered empathetic
people, you'd think we would want to treat all aspects of our human
capital with the same respect we give to our end-users, no?


On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Is that right for everyone? No. Could I take a different approach if
> Involution weren't in Silicon Valley? Probably. But at the same time,
> I'm only asking people to work how I work, and to get up to speed as
> fast as humanly possible.
>
> But to make some wild implications I'm some ogre is way over the line.
>
> --
> Andrei Herasimchuk
>
> Principal, Involution Studios
> innovating the digital world
>
> e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> c. +1 408 306 6422
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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>

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[dave malouf]

I'll apologize for my part.
I think part of the issue of these discussions is that "practice"
is so unique. As an enterprise software guy for 10 years now, I got
this in spades. But on this list, we try to engage in discussions
that can be generalized outside of the individual organizational
experience and used across working environments. So it is hard to get
the full picture and thus reactions like these.

So again, I'm sorry for my part in any "Ogre" implications, but I
do have to say you do remind me of Shrek a little bit. Of course,
Dirk is no Donkey in any sense of the metaphor. ;)

I think I get what you are saying about finding passionate and
engaged people who want to hit the ground running. That part I
wouldn't ever want to get in the way of.

I think what hit a nerve w/ me was maybe your unfortunate choice of
words -- "cold water". I think "hit the road running" is more of
what you meant and in the context of this discussion has a lot more
merit and value. I think Juniors should always take this point of
view and anyone would be well rewarded to have access to someone like
you and Dirk to work with at such an early point in their careers.

To my point, I think find it amazing how few organizations though
want the "hit the ground running" approach, but would rather the
"cold deep water" approach. My colleague is doing a research paper
for DMI on the topic of young hires in the general design setting and
it is just amazing the results she is finding (go to the DMI
conference to learn more). What I have seen at Moto EMb Design I
haven't seen anywhere else. it is the most nurturing junior designer
environment I have seen. People really get mentored as they enter the
studio. They are also given LOTS of opportunity to hit the ground
running. But they do so with LOTS of support. For designers, we have
an amazingly low attrition rate.

I wish I could find a good way to emmulate this and achieve my other
goals of building the IxD group here on Long Island (my biggest
obstacle is big hair, strip malls, and 50 miles between the office
and NYC).

Again Andrei, sorry for my part in what turned a bit nasty.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Robert Skrobe]

Hi Andrei,

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Just a quick question: Where are all the interface and software
> designers in Silicon Valley? Has everyone just packed up and left or
> what? I see more job listings, postings and calls for resumes and yet
> there seem to be even fewer people to fill the jobs than ever before.


For what it's worth, the Northwest (Seattle area) is desperate for
information architects, yet most of qualified ones are already employed, are
students learning the discipline, or too senior for the positions in
question.

In terms of interaction/interface designers, there's a big demand for them
here with mobile and casual gaming.  A friend of mine who's an interaction
designer was recently asking me if I knew anyone looking for work.

Yours,
Robert
Principal IA, IGN.com

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dmitry Nekrasovski]

Andrei,

My original statement was meant very generically, and not at all as an
ad hominem attack on you or your organization. If it came across as
such, my sincere apologies.

I am all for hiring people who are passionate about their work and
challenging them early and often. To me, companies who under-utilize
their staff's potential are just as guilty of not being human-centric
as those that burn out their people with impossible demands. In fact,
I currently find myself in exactly the former situation, and am
actively looking for a workplace where my skills and talent can be put
to better use.

Dave's response makes the point I wanted to make in a more nuanced
way: there is a difference between the "cold water" and "hit the
ground running" approach. "Cold water" is what my original criticism
was directed at; "hit the ground running" is absolutely to be expected
in the fast-evolving field we work in, and can be a great stimulus for
professional development and personal growth.

Dmitry

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:38 AM, Dmitry Nekrasovski wrote:
>
>  > An organization that claims to practice human-centric design without
>  > having a human-centric approach to developing its people is either
>  > hypocritical, or has misplaced its priorities, or both.
>
>
>  Ok... hold on one quick minute... Now you guys are being borderline
>  offensive.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Sebi Tauciuc]

>
> FWIW... Involution is looking for both senior and junior level folks,
> although we only post officially for senior level positions.


> --
> Andrei Herasimchuk
>

Applying to a position takes me at least half a day (that includes some
research and the customized letter of intent).
In general, I prefer not to waste my time applying for a senior level
position hoping that they'll also take juniors

-- 
Sergiu Sebastian Tauciuc
http://www.sergiutauciuc.ro/en/

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charles B. Kreitzberg]

Hi David:

" I shuddered when I read your top 10.
I wrote 5 pages and deleted all b/c I was really upset when writing it."

I assume you were not shuddering with delight? Really, I am sorry to have
caused you distress; that was certainly not my intention.

" I think that you need to re-think the above in the context of IxDA a bit
more. The pull to generalize and break down walls feels noble, but it is in
that light of UPA and CHI trying to own UX that IxDA was born. It didn't
work and doesn't work b/c it doesn't respect the REAL differentiation of
culture and practice and discipline that exists among *designers* from other
parts of the UX puzzle."

I understand that your emotion comes from frustration at the unwillingness
of other organizations to recognize that some designers are coming from a
different place. To me, that is more an educational process than anything
else. I was a UPA Board member for some years; that does not make me hostile
to IxDA in any way. Obviously, since I am participating fully with you all.
In any organization you will find people who are narrow-minded; some will
change with exposure to new ideas others will never shift.

Nor do I have any problem with there being multiple organizations
representing people with different styles, skills or focus. I think that
people should be free to join IxDA, join UPA, join SIGCHI -- personally I am
a member of all three -- and put their effort where it works for them.

Again, let me say I understand your pain and frustration. I often feel the
same way when interacting with professional associations which are difficult
groups to manage since everyone is a volunteer. Where perhaps we differ is
in the assumption that we have to be at odds with other organizations and
that this type of split is good for the profession. It is not.

I have written many words on this list, trying to make the case that we are
one profession with different emphases and we, the practitioners, should be
free to move around and acquire all the skills that make us as effective
designers as possible. That's not about being noble. It is about defining us
in a way that maximizes our impact and income.

The process of politics is a frustrating and painful one. Personally, I
don't particularly enjoy it. But at the end of the day we need to reconcile
and work together because we have common goals and need to present a common
front to the outside world. 

On a personal note, I am very grateful that you played a major role in
creating IxDA. I think that the large number of people who have signed up
for the list is proof that there was a need for this organization and that
its existence makes sense. Now we have to take the next steps to grow into
the kind of organization that can truly be effective for its membership.

In my opinion, that will not happen if we are focused on proving that we are
different from everyone else. By all means, we should be clear what we stand
for and advocate for the type of design and profession that we want to be.
But I feel we have bigger and more important battles to fight. Quoting again
what you said, " It didn't work and doesn't work b/c it doesn't respect the
REAL differentiation of culture and practice and discipline that exists
among *designers* from other parts of the UX puzzle." I will accept that
perhaps it didn't work. I don't believe that it cannot work. I believe that
we should dedicate significant effort to making it work. The payoff will
benefit us all.

Best,

Charlie


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[David Malouf]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Charles B. Kreitzberg <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In my opinion, that will not happen if we are focused on proving that we
> are
> different from everyone else. By all means, we should be clear what we
> stand
> for and advocate for the type of design and profession that we want to be.
> But I feel we have bigger and more important battles to fight. Quoting
> again
> what you said, " It didn't work and doesn't work b/c it doesn't respect
> the
> REAL differentiation of culture and practice and discipline that exists
> among *designers* from other parts of the UX puzzle." I will accept that
> perhaps it didn't work. I don't believe that it cannot work. I believe
> that
> we should dedicate significant effort to making it work. The payoff will
> benefit us all.
>

Let's just say I disagree and arrogantly so, admittedly. Since I'm no longer
a board member, or vice-president, I've been taking a more free position
with my language on this list.

I very unhumbly believe that IxD is the future of all UCD. not usability,
not IA, not visual design, not industrial design, no HCI research. it is why
I have been passionately focused on IxDA for almost 5 years (
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1415621296&channel=1274129191).

Jeff Howard and I have different paths to where we got where we are, but the
design of interactions at a systemic level to me and understanding
interaction system design as an act of aesthetic creation is THE key
differentiator of organizations of all types around the world. Understanding
the complex field surrounding interaction as a distinct practice and design
discipline is my own personal mission and the one that I hope IxDA continues
to be about.

To do so IxDA needs to stay focused on differentiating, defining, advancing
and advocating IxD.

I disagree w/ your economic premise in so far as I believe the call towards
UX is one that is LESS valuable. it is too generic, and it too easily feels
to many that it can be replicated easily. It is the story of MS, and not the
story of Apple (to be economically simple).

(BTW, did you get that Andrei? before you asked me to speak for IxDA. I'm
just like you now...Just another verbose pain in the butt waiting for his
turn to get "moderated".[all in good fun])

--dave

-- 
David Malouf
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixda.org/
http://motorola.com/

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Charles B. Kreitzberg]

**David said "Let's just say I disagree and arrogantly so, admittedly. Since
I'm no longer a board member, or vice-president, I've been taking a more
free position with my language on this list."

I am not certain that anything I say will influence your thinking on this
subject.

**David said: "I very unhumbly believe that IxD is the future of all UCD.
not usability, not IA, not visual design, not industrial design, no HCI
research. it is why I have been passionately focused on IxDA for almost 5
years."

Actually, if you had read my points more carefully you would see that I
agree with you. Take another look at the point that reads "Think Big." But
with respect, Dave, I have also been in interaction design a long time -- in
my case for over 30 years -- and I am as passionate about it now as I was 30
years ago. I have lived though a lot of stuff trying to make the case that
what we do matters and also invested a lot of time in helping organizations
grow.

I have a lot to say about the relationship of Ix and its relationship to the
other elements you mention above. What is frustrating is that it seems
almost impossible to make progress because we keep getting dragged into the
same, old, pointless argument. I passionately agree that IxD is the future
of all UCD. But I also believe that any design that is not usable is
useless. Any design that does not present content well is also pretty much
useless. And HCI research has a lot to offer designers. My goal is to
integrate all of these elements. In that process, IxD will become stronger,
not weaker.

**David said: "Understanding the complex field surrounding interaction as a
distinct practice and design discipline is my own personal mission and the
one that I hope IxDA continues to be about. To do so IxDA needs to stay
focused on differentiating, defining, advancing and advocating IxD."

Great. I think that is right except perhaps for the word "differentiating."
I would replace it with "integrating." But as Robert Frost said "that has
made all the difference." 

With respect, Dave, I don't think you are really hearing what I am saying. I
have come to that conclusion because your rebuttals to my position seem (to
me) to be missing the point I am trying to make. Perhaps I am not being
clear. If so, I apologize.

I believe you are fighting the wrong battle. What I find dispiriting about
that is that I support a lot of your basic ideas. But you are, IMO, going a
bit too far and not listening quite hard enough.

I appreciate your energy and insight. Although I consider myself a seasoned
designer, I have learned a lot from the people on this list. As an older
designer, I run the risk of staying focused in yesterday. Connecting with
people on this list helps me understand current thinking, passion and
issues. I thank you all for that. By the same token, being a younger
designer means that you may not yet have had all the experiences that have
led me to my current conclusions. 

Again, I want to thank you for having worked to create this group and for
all you put into the conference. That has made a difference to me.

I guess that I will leave it to others to decide if what I am saying has
value.

Best,

Charlie




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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Jim Leftwich]

I'm glad to see the passion in the voices here.  They represent a
wide range of experiences and viewpoints.  Issues as complex and
potentially contentious as definition and identity are difficult to
explore within the significant constraints of a text-based forum. 
Those of us that have participated in online forums for a couple of
decades or more have seen this again and again.

One of the amazingly wonderful things about Interaction08 in Savannah
was the opportunity to have higher bandwidth discussions about these
issues with people face to face. Sometimes one-on-one and sometimes
in small groups.  I was particularly impressed by the diversity of
practice and experience that was represented there, even if not all
were of equal slices of our big pie.

First off, I would suggest that the arguments that we see today have
been around for a long time.  They are not likely to be resolved
today, nor in the near term.  In the mean time, I'd encourage
seeking both common ground as well as an appreciate and respect for
the practices and experiences of those that approach Interaction
Design in different ways.

I also think that personal experiences and histories are important as
single datapoints that altogether make up the Interaction Design
cloud, with it's actual non-regular topology and distribution.  Yes,
there are areas of the cloud that contain many doing a similar thing
or practicing in a similar way.  But outliers, particularly if they
identify as or have long practices as Interaction Designers, are also
important.  Perhaps they serve an underserved sector.  Perhaps they
have developed a valuable approach that others would benefit from by
learning about.

Much of the work of Interaction Designers involves the digital and/or
software, but not always.  When practicing as an Interaction Designer
on the development of equipment and equipment environments, there are
often non-digital elements that people interact with.  Design of these
as part of the whole, even when other parts may indeed involve digital
or software components, is also Interaction Design.  I know that I am
not alone among those who have experience practicing Interaction
Design in products and enviroments who will continue to see our
identies as Interaction Designers in these terms.  And this is as it
should be.

What the Building Architects, Industrial Designers, and Graphic
Designers do correctly as groups however, is put the focus on the
work, not the words, definitions, and identities.  If the work of
Interaction Design escapes beyond defined boundaries, then it's the
work that will have the greatest impact in the real world and will
serve as the best example for others to learn from.

Given the sheer joy and relief at finally feeling "home" that I
sensed among so many of the Interaction08 attendees, I'm just not
worried at all that our great organization is in danger of losing out
to other organizations out of a lack of narrow definition.

Embrace the diversity.  Spotlight the real-world work.  Seek to map
the work and experiences of our members.  Recognize the value of the
outliers rather than discarding them as not representative.

James Leftwich, IDSA
CXO
SeeqPod, Inc.
6475 Christie Avenue, Ste. 475
Emeryville, CA 94608
http://www.seeqpod.com

Orbit Interaction
Palo Alto, California USA
mobile:  (650) 387-2550
Skype:  jimwich
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.orbitnet.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimwich
Director, IxDA / http://www.ixda.org


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Dwayne King]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Dan Saffer wrote:

> Location still matters.


I don't know. We're based in Portland Oregon, we do some local work  
but most of our revenue comes from San Francisco and Washington D.C.

It makes for a fair amount of plane travel and web conferencing, but  
all in all it allows us to live where cost of living is reasonable,  
quality of life is high an keeps our rates in check to be more  
competitive than a lot of the NYC and SF groups.

That said, finding people is tough in Portland also. It seems supply  
and demand is out of whack.

best regards,
Dwayne 

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[Russell Wilson]

I know this thread is probably over-cooked, but I think it's absolutely
ludicrous to
suggest that whether or not you get to do "interesting work" depends on your
geographic location.  Job/project opportunities may be more abundant in
cities,
but the "interestingness" of the work comes more from the individual than
the
work itself.

- Russ
blog: http://www.dexodesign.com



On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Dwayne King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Dan Saffer wrote:
>
> > Location still matters.
>
>
> I don't know. We're based in Portland Oregon, we do some local work
> but most of our revenue comes from San Francisco and Washington D.C.
>
> It makes for a fair amount of plane travel and web conferencing, but
> all in all it allows us to live where cost of living is reasonable,
> quality of life is high an keeps our rates in check to be more
> competitive than a lot of the NYC and SF groups.
>
> That said, finding people is tough in Portland also. It seems supply
> and demand is out of whack.
>
> best regards,
> Dwayne
>  
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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-- 
Russell Wilson
Vice President of Product Design, NetQoS
Blog: http://www.dexodesign.com

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Where are all the designers?

[pete]

I love and hate this thread.

There have been many great points made about the tradeoffs of working
in a vibrant area, about what interactive design is, and how horrible
it can be to find the right job.  But as I read this thread it pains
me.

I%u2019m a recent graduate of a European design school and I%u2019m
currently looking for employment.  I am that young kid who would
gladly live in a cardboard box to be out in the valley and working on
exciting projects, yet so far there%u2019s only been rejections and
glimpses of future contractor work.  So it%u2019s quite hard to see
the disconnect.

I%u2019d like to offer up one observation.  Just as the IxD community
has had trouble defining Interactive Design, my school had difficulty
choosing the types of projects to develop throughout the program. 
Since the field is so varied, we touched upon many types of
interactive design projects while never delving too deep into the
technical aspects of each category.  Instead an overall emphasis on
theory, process, and the artistic elements of interactive design were
stressed as those elements can be applied to any possible future
project.  While, I believe, this was an apt way to instruct the
program at this current point in time, it has left us students with a
lagging technical skill set.  The backgrounds of the student body were
as diverse as one could imagine and therefore students as still able
to only apply for positions similar to their previous backgrounds.  
As I currently browse jobs, many jobs emphasize simply the web nature
of interactive design and therefore the only students from my school
who would fit into the mold that HR builds are those who already had
a background in web development and programming.  Perhaps this is
another element to think about.  There are schools attempting to
teach the discipline, but until the categories are defined further,
it will be hard to train students on a highly technical level.  I
would like to see companies start to give a little and realize
something along the lines of what Andrei said where interactive
designers do not code and also work along side of graphic designers. 
So far it seems that this mentality would surely lead to a rejection
email.

Also, in general, I am saddened to see that the areas of experience
design, environmental design, and installation design are less
prevalent in the United States than over in Europe.  In my mind this
is quite ironic, because as usual, the funding for substantial and
innovative projects could easily be found stateside.  Also, I would
say that a fair amount of my classmates prefer these areas as opposed
to UI/IA design.

But if anyone has suggestions for the unemployed side of this debate,
please send them over.  I agree that it would be nice to have a simple
and secure resume posting system on here.I don%u2019t believe
I%u2019m the only inactive designer around here.



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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