Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Andy - further on spindles, as per Sam's suggestion I tried net spindle-position encoder.0.position-interpolated = motion.spindle-revs rather than net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs At low speeds with low encoder counts it sounded totally different - much worse with odd pauses :( I've not actually cut a thread with it, but for the same spindle speed I reckon the pitch would be off - it just doesn't seem to be driving the Z axis at the correct feed and looking at the Z axis velocity display on the gui, it's all over the place. position-interpolated is not for position control - says so right in the docs. not that it says what it IS for and I forget... Chris M -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 06:18:43 +, you wrote: position-interpolated is not for position control - says so right in the docs. not that it says what it IS for and I forget... G It's on the spindle encoder. I couldn't find it in the docs? Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Steve - Could we see your whole hal file? I am wondering maybe the functions are not in correct the order. they should be setup so that in nists words - the machine 'sense model act' (but linuxcnc being flexable - you can put the functions in any order) sam On 8/2/2012 4:45 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 2 August 2012 07:18, Chris Morley chrisinnana...@hotmail.com wrote: position-interpolated is not for position control - says so right in the docs. not that it says what it IS for and I forget... My reading of that is that it is inappropriate to use for position feedback on an axis ballscrew for example. I think it is intended for spindle-synchronised moves. I am surprised that it sounds worse for Steve, it helped my threading a lot. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 08:12:48 -0500, you wrote: Steve - Could we see your whole hal file? I am wondering maybe the functions are not in correct the order. they should be setup so that in nists words - the machine 'sense model act' (but linuxcnc being flexable - you can put the functions in any order) Hi Sam - her you go - may get some line wraps from mailer # Generated by stepconf at Tue Apr 7 20:36:50 2009 # If you make changes to this file, they will be # overwritten when you run stepconf again loadrt trivkins loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT base_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]BASE_PERIOD servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_joints=[TRAJ]AXES loadrt probe_parport loadrt hal_parport cfg=0xe480 out setp parport.0.reset-time 5000 loadrt stepgen step_type=0,0 loadrt encoder num_chan=1 loadrt abs count=2 loadrt scale count=1 loadrt pwmgen output_type=0 loadrt lowpass count=1 addf parport.0.read base-thread addf stepgen.make-pulses base-thread addf encoder.update-counters base-thread addf pwmgen.make-pulses base-thread addf parport.0.write base-thread addf parport.0.reset base-thread addf stepgen.capture-position servo-thread addf encoder.capture-position servo-thread addf motion-command-handler servo-thread addf motion-controller servo-thread addf stepgen.update-freq servo-thread addf pwmgen.update servo-thread addf abs.0 servo-thread addf abs.1 servo-thread addf scale.0 servo-thread addf lowpass.0 servo-thread net spindle-cmd = motion.spindle-speed-out = abs.1.in net spindle-abs-cmd = abs.1.out = pwmgen.0.value net spindle-enable = motion.spindle-on = pwmgen.0.enable parport.0.pin-14-out net spindle-pwm = pwmgen.0.pwm setp pwmgen.0.pwm-freq 0.0 setp pwmgen.0.scale 18000 setp pwmgen.0.offset 0 setp pwmgen.0.dither-pwm true net spindle-cw = motion.spindle-forward net spindle-ccw = motion.spindle-reverse setp encoder.0.position-scale 500.00 net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = motion.spindle-speed-in net spindle-index-enable encoder.0.index-enable = motion.spindle-index-enable net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A net spindle-phase-b encoder.0.phase-B net spindle-index encoder.0.phase-Z setp lowpass.0.gain 0.01 net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = lowpass.0.in net spindle-rpm-filtered = lowpass.0.out net estop-out = parport.0.pin-01-out net zdir = parport.0.pin-02-out net zstep = parport.0.pin-03-out setp parport.0.pin-03-out-reset 1 net xdir = parport.0.pin-06-out net xstep = parport.0.pin-07-out setp parport.0.pin-07-out-reset 1 net spindle-pwm = parport.0.pin-09-out setp parport.0.pin-16-out-invert 1 net spindle-ccw = parport.0.pin-17-out net spindle-cw = parport.0.pin-16-out net spindle-index = parport.0.pin-10-in net spindle-phase-a = parport.0.pin-11-in net spindle-phase-b = parport.0.pin-12-in net estop-ext = parport.0.pin-15-in setp stepgen.0.position-scale [AXIS_0]SCALE setp stepgen.0.steplen 1 setp stepgen.0.stepspace 0 setp stepgen.0.dirhold 35000 setp stepgen.0.dirsetup 35000 setp stepgen.0.maxaccel [AXIS_0]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL net xpos-cmd axis.0.motor-pos-cmd = stepgen.0.position-cmd net xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb net xstep = stepgen.0.step net xdir = stepgen.0.dir net xenable axis.0.amp-enable-out = stepgen.0.enable setp stepgen.1.position-scale [AXIS_2]SCALE setp stepgen.1.steplen 1 setp stepgen.1.stepspace 0 setp stepgen.1.dirhold 35000 setp stepgen.1.dirsetup 35000 setp stepgen.1.maxaccel [AXIS_2]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL net zpos-cmd axis.2.motor-pos-cmd = stepgen.1.position-cmd net zpos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb net zstep = stepgen.1.step net zdir = stepgen.1.dir net zenable axis.2.amp-enable-out = stepgen.1.enable net estop-out = iocontrol.0.user-enable-out net estop-ext = iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in loadusr -W hal_manualtoolchange net tool-change iocontrol.0.tool-change = hal_manualtoolchange.change net tool-changed iocontrol.0.tool-changed = hal_manualtoolchange.changed net tool-number iocontrol.0.tool-prep-number = hal_manualtoolchange.number net tool-prepare-loopback iocontrol.0.tool-prepare = iocontrol.0.tool-prepared Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
unless others have an opinion... addf parport.0.read base-thread addf encoder.update-counters base-thread addf stepgen.make-pulses base-thread addf pwmgen.make-pulses base-thread addf parport.0.write base-thread addf parport.0.reset base-thread addf stepgen.capture-position servo-thread addf encoder.capture-position servo-thread addf motion-command-handler servo-thread addf motion-controller servo-thread addf abs.0 servo-thread addf abs.1 servo-thread addf scale.0 servo-thread addf lowpass.0 servo-thread addf stepgen.update-freq servo-thread addf pwmgen.update servo-thread sam On 08/02/2012 05:04 PM, Steve Blackmore wrote: On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 08:12:48 -0500, you wrote: Steve - Could we see your whole hal file? I am wondering maybe the functions are not in correct the order. they should be setup so that in nists words - the machine 'sense model act' (but linuxcnc being flexable - you can put the functions in any order) Hi Sam - her you go - may get some line wraps from mailer # Generated by stepconf at Tue Apr 7 20:36:50 2009 # If you make changes to this file, they will be # overwritten when you run stepconf again loadrt trivkins loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT base_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]BASE_PERIOD servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_joints=[TRAJ]AXES loadrt probe_parport loadrt hal_parport cfg=0xe480 out setp parport.0.reset-time 5000 loadrt stepgen step_type=0,0 loadrt encoder num_chan=1 loadrt abs count=2 loadrt scale count=1 loadrt pwmgen output_type=0 loadrt lowpass count=1 addf parport.0.read base-thread addf stepgen.make-pulses base-thread addf encoder.update-counters base-thread addf pwmgen.make-pulses base-thread addf parport.0.write base-thread addf parport.0.reset base-thread addf stepgen.capture-position servo-thread addf encoder.capture-position servo-thread addf motion-command-handler servo-thread addf motion-controller servo-thread addf stepgen.update-freq servo-thread addf pwmgen.update servo-thread addf abs.0 servo-thread addf abs.1 servo-thread addf scale.0 servo-thread addf lowpass.0 servo-thread net spindle-cmd = motion.spindle-speed-out = abs.1.in net spindle-abs-cmd = abs.1.out = pwmgen.0.value net spindle-enable = motion.spindle-on = pwmgen.0.enable parport.0.pin-14-out net spindle-pwm = pwmgen.0.pwm setp pwmgen.0.pwm-freq 0.0 setp pwmgen.0.scale 18000 setp pwmgen.0.offset 0 setp pwmgen.0.dither-pwm true net spindle-cw = motion.spindle-forward net spindle-ccw = motion.spindle-reverse setp encoder.0.position-scale 500.00 net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = motion.spindle-speed-in net spindle-index-enable encoder.0.index-enable = motion.spindle-index-enable net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A net spindle-phase-b encoder.0.phase-B net spindle-index encoder.0.phase-Z setp lowpass.0.gain 0.01 net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = lowpass.0.in net spindle-rpm-filtered = lowpass.0.out net estop-out = parport.0.pin-01-out net zdir = parport.0.pin-02-out net zstep = parport.0.pin-03-out setp parport.0.pin-03-out-reset 1 net xdir = parport.0.pin-06-out net xstep = parport.0.pin-07-out setp parport.0.pin-07-out-reset 1 net spindle-pwm = parport.0.pin-09-out setp parport.0.pin-16-out-invert 1 net spindle-ccw = parport.0.pin-17-out net spindle-cw = parport.0.pin-16-out net spindle-index = parport.0.pin-10-in net spindle-phase-a = parport.0.pin-11-in net spindle-phase-b = parport.0.pin-12-in net estop-ext = parport.0.pin-15-in setp stepgen.0.position-scale [AXIS_0]SCALE setp stepgen.0.steplen 1 setp stepgen.0.stepspace 0 setp stepgen.0.dirhold 35000 setp stepgen.0.dirsetup 35000 setp stepgen.0.maxaccel [AXIS_0]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL net xpos-cmd axis.0.motor-pos-cmd = stepgen.0.position-cmd net xpos-fb stepgen.0.position-fb = axis.0.motor-pos-fb net xstep = stepgen.0.step net xdir = stepgen.0.dir net xenable axis.0.amp-enable-out = stepgen.0.enable setp stepgen.1.position-scale [AXIS_2]SCALE setp stepgen.1.steplen 1 setp stepgen.1.stepspace 0 setp stepgen.1.dirhold 35000 setp stepgen.1.dirsetup 35000 setp stepgen.1.maxaccel [AXIS_2]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL net zpos-cmd axis.2.motor-pos-cmd = stepgen.1.position-cmd net zpos-fb stepgen.1.position-fb = axis.2.motor-pos-fb net zstep = stepgen.1.step net zdir = stepgen.1.dir net zenable axis.2.amp-enable-out = stepgen.1.enable net estop-out = iocontrol.0.user-enable-out net estop-ext = iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in loadusr -W hal_manualtoolchange net tool-change iocontrol.0.tool-change = hal_manualtoolchange.change net tool-changed iocontrol.0.tool-changed = hal_manualtoolchange.changed net tool-number iocontrol.0.tool-prep-number = hal_manualtoolchange.number net tool-prepare-loopback iocontrol.0.tool-prepare = iocontrol.0.tool-prepared Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 15 July 2012 18:21, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: I am not privy to how the encoder module works internally, but it seems to me that if a timestamp could be put on the base thread sample The software encoder component, Mesa encoder counters and the Pico Systems UPC controller all can do this. I just, on a whim looked at this. The software encoder contains: 382 /* increment main timestamp counter */ 383 timebase += period; 384 /* done */ Now, I might be wrong, and need to check tonight, but I have more than a sneaking suspicion that the period parameter passed to a realtime function isn't the actual time elapsed since last invocation, but is rather the rounded idealised value. So, if you have a thread period of the same order of magnitude as the thread dither, this might well introduce quite significant errors. I think that ideally the timestamps would be CPU clocks, but that would involve overhead. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:55:15 +0100, you wrote: On 15 July 2012 18:21, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: I am not privy to how the encoder module works internally, but it seems to me that if a timestamp could be put on the base thread sample The software encoder component, Mesa encoder counters and the Pico Systems UPC controller all can do this. I just, on a whim looked at this. The software encoder contains: 382 /* increment main timestamp counter */ 383 timebase += period; 384 /* done */ Now, I might be wrong, and need to check tonight, but I have more than a sneaking suspicion that the period parameter passed to a realtime function isn't the actual time elapsed since last invocation, but is rather the rounded idealised value. So, if you have a thread period of the same order of magnitude as the thread dither, this might well introduce quite significant errors. I think that ideally the timestamps would be CPU clocks, but that would involve overhead. Andy - further on spindles, as per Sam's suggestion I tried net spindle-position encoder.0.position-interpolated = motion.spindle-revs rather than net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs At low speeds with low encoder counts it sounded totally different - much worse with odd pauses :( I've not actually cut a thread with it, but for the same spindle speed I reckon the pitch would be off - it just doesn't seem to be driving the Z axis at the correct feed and looking at the Z axis velocity display on the gui, it's all over the place. Unfortunately I'm still on limited activities until I see the surgeon again next week, and on strict instructions not to lift anything heavy - wrong chuck is on lathe so couldn't actually cut something to prove it one way or t'other. Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 07/17/2012 12:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote: I don't use NFS, just sftp, and it works fine and is pretty easy to move files around between machines. Thanks for this tip, Jon. I have 3 machines here. The one (Compaq with Athlon 64 and obscure A8N-LA motherboard) that has my wife's and my EMAIL accounts has Linux Mint (I believe it's 11). It also has the printer attached to it. Mint 11 seems to be confused as to where it wants to take commands from. To shut down we have to go upper right rather than lower left. Another one (HP Pavilion Slimline s7600n) had Ubuntu Studio on it, but it would drop back to a log in prompt without warning every 1/2 hour to 1 hour. So I put MEPIS 11 on it, and it seems to be very stable. I also like MEPIS. The 3rd PC is another Compaq, but with a Sempron. None of these would accept the latest version of LinuxCNC, which I desperately wanted because named subroutines could have text names. In my playing around with these I came across a setting in the BIOS that looked suspicious, so I flipped the switch, and behold! Ubuntu 10.04 with LinuxCNC installed and ran as it should! It didn't have anything to do with the usual dealbreakers, but I'd have to look it up to find out what it was I changed. Right now I have the MEPIS and Mint PCs on a 2 port USB KVM switch. *What you helped me with is* that the Mint PC appears to have a card reader that only supports SD cards, but not SDHC. I have a camera that has an 8 GIG SDHC card with the photos I need on it, so I had to copy them to the MEPIS machine. *Sftp took a little getting use to, very little, to know the difference between ls and lls, and as you say, it took care of the permissions nicely!* -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
cogoman wrote: Another one (HP Pavilion Slimline s7600n) had Ubuntu Studio on it, but it would drop back to a log in prompt without warning every 1/2 hour to 1 hour. That's probably the security monitor, I'm sure that can be turned off, but I don't know which of the 2000 security monitor programs this might be. *What you helped me with is* that the Mint PC appears to have a card reader that only supports SD cards, but not SDHC. I have a camera that has an 8 GIG SDHC card with the photos I need on it, so I had to copy them to the MEPIS machine. *Sftp took a little getting use to, very little, to know the difference between ls and lls, and as you say, it took care of the permissions nicely! Yes, since it is a local process on each end, if you know the password to log in, you have access to the files. The original sftp was pretty limited, now you can do nearly any standard shell command both locally and remotely. And, of course, man sftp will give some useful info on how to use it. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:05:22 -0500, you wrote: Get well soon! If you feel like experimenting - I think you would just change net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs to net spindle-position encoder.0.position-interpolated = motion.spindle-revs Thanks Sam - I'll give that a whirl and report back. Feeling much better and can see surprisingly well although I do look like I've gone several rounds with Tyson G. Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:53:15 -0500, you wrote: out of curiosity are you using? ENCODER *encoder.*/N/*.position-interpolated* float out Position in scaled units, interpolated between encoder counts. Only valid when velocity is approximately constant and above *min-velocity-estimate*. Do not use for position control. That is supposed to smooth out the position between encoder counts. (for lower count encoders) Hi Sam - no am not using that. Here's the relevant bits out the hal file. The lines with # at the end were added in an attempt to smooth it out. (I'm a bit laid up at the moment, has some vision problems in my right eye over the weekend - went to hospital and was operated on yesterday for torn and detached retina - cant see much at the moment and machines are off the menu for the next 10 days or so :) addf lowpass.0 servo-thread # net spindle-cmd = motion.spindle-speed-out = abs.1.in net spindle-abs-cmd = abs.1.out = pwmgen.0.value net spindle-enable = motion.spindle-on = pwmgen.0.enable parport.0.pin-14-out net spindle-pwm = pwmgen.0.pwm setp pwmgen.0.pwm-freq 0.0 setp pwmgen.0.scale 18000 setp pwmgen.0.offset 0 setp pwmgen.0.dither-pwm true net spindle-cw = motion.spindle-forward net spindle-ccw = motion.spindle-reverse setp encoder.0.position-scale 480.00 net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = motion.spindle-speed-in net spindle-index-enable encoder.0.index-enable = motion.spindle-index-enable net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A net spindle-phase-b encoder.0.phase-B net spindle-index encoder.0.phase-Z setp lowpass.0.gain 0.01# net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = lowpass.0.in # net spindle-rpm-filtered = lowpass.0.out # Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Steve Blackmore wrote: (I'm a bit laid up at the moment, has some vision problems in my right eye over the weekend - went to hospital and was operated on yesterday for torn and detached retina - cant see much at the moment and machines are off the menu for the next 10 days or so :) YIKES, glad you got that taken care of in time! I don't see whare spindle-rpm-filtered goes, if that is just for display, then getting the right settings on the lowpass filter should make the speed display work OK. I use a similar scheme here. If it is also used for the closed-loop speed regulation, then that could cause a delay between the spindle encoder and the loop, and this could lead to instability. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Get well soon! If you feel like experimenting - I think you would just change net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs to net spindle-position encoder.0.position-interpolated = motion.spindle-revs sam On 7/20/2012 4:06 AM, Steve Blackmore wrote: On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:53:15 -0500, you wrote: out of curiosity are you using? ENCODER *encoder.*/N/*.position-interpolated* float out Position in scaled units, interpolated between encoder counts. Only valid when velocity is approximately constant and above *min-velocity-estimate*. Do not use for position control. That is supposed to smooth out the position between encoder counts. (for lower count encoders) Hi Sam - no am not using that. Here's the relevant bits out the hal file. The lines with # at the end were added in an attempt to smooth it out. (I'm a bit laid up at the moment, has some vision problems in my right eye over the weekend - went to hospital and was operated on yesterday for torn and detached retina - cant see much at the moment and machines are off the menu for the next 10 days or so :) addf lowpass.0 servo-thread # net spindle-cmd = motion.spindle-speed-out = abs.1.in net spindle-abs-cmd = abs.1.out = pwmgen.0.value net spindle-enable = motion.spindle-on = pwmgen.0.enable parport.0.pin-14-out net spindle-pwm = pwmgen.0.pwm setp pwmgen.0.pwm-freq 0.0 setp pwmgen.0.scale 18000 setp pwmgen.0.offset 0 setp pwmgen.0.dither-pwm true net spindle-cw = motion.spindle-forward net spindle-ccw = motion.spindle-reverse setp encoder.0.position-scale 480.00 net spindle-position encoder.0.position = motion.spindle-revs net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = motion.spindle-speed-in net spindle-index-enable encoder.0.index-enable = motion.spindle-index-enable net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-A net spindle-phase-b encoder.0.phase-B net spindle-index encoder.0.phase-Z setp lowpass.0.gain 0.01 # net spindle-velocity encoder.0.velocity = lowpass.0.in # net spindle-rpm-filtered = lowpass.0.out # Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: snippage My new rework station from X-Tronix came in today, but I've not plugged it in just yet. But the part I've been battling to make for the 3rd time now is done except for a pin hole and a slot in the extension so I can pin it from rotating while I adjust the nylock bearing adjuster nut. Once I get the station ready, I speed my feedback to the spindle up about 100x by changing that 10uf filter cap out for a .2 paper/mylar. That should help considerably. Cheers, Gene Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. 2 GB Inbox? I think VMS invented this nifty little thing called mail folders. ;-) Use your filters and move mail out of your inbox to those folders, and you'll avoid the dreaded 2 GB Inbox file size limit. Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 19 July 2012 10:17, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2 GB Inbox? I think VMS invented this nifty little thing called mail folders. ;-) Use your filters and move mail out of your inbox to those folders, and you'll avoid the dreaded 2 GB Inbox file size limit. I have (somewhere) every email I have received since 1992. They are sorted into folders by year as a minimum, with a certain amount of other filtering. I have not noticed them being especially unweildy. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:15 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 July 2012 10:17, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2 GB Inbox? I think VMS invented this nifty little thing called mail folders. ;-) Use your filters and move mail out of your inbox to those folders, and you'll avoid the dreaded 2 GB Inbox file size limit. I have (somewhere) every email I have received since 1992. They are sorted into folders by year as a minimum, with a certain amount of other filtering. I have not noticed them being especially unweildy. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto Yep, as do I. Gene said it was his Inbox that had gotten to 2 GB, and that's what caused the problem. The 2 GB file size limit is one of those things that's a problem under a 32 bit file system. Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 19/07/12 12:21, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: From: Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle snip Yep, as do I. Gene said it was his Inbox that had gotten to 2 GB, and that's what caused the problem. The 2 GB file size limit is one of those things that's a problem under a 32 bit file system. Mark Err... Linux has had support for much larger files than 2GB on 32-bit systems since Kernel 2.4. It's called LFS. See: http://www.suse.de/~aj/linux_lfs.html Bob -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Robert von Knobloch b...@engelking.dewrote: On 19/07/12 12:21, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: From: Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle snip Yep, as do I. Gene said it was his Inbox that had gotten to 2 GB, and that's what caused the problem. The 2 GB file size limit is one of those things that's a problem under a 32 bit file system. Mark Err... Linux has had support for much larger files than 2GB on 32-bit systems since Kernel 2.4. It's called LFS. See: http://www.suse.de/~aj/linux_lfs.html Bob Correct. That's a work-around. As I said, it's one of the issues on a 32 bit file system, and it's also a problem on 32 bit data bases, which is what the mail in many of the mail clients is stored on, whether it's Windows, Linux, Unix or other OS's. Generally, the problem isn't with the OS, it's with the applications. Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:02:26 Mark Wendt did opine: On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: snippage My new rework station from X-Tronix came in today, but I've not plugged it in just yet. But the part I've been battling to make for the 3rd time now is done except for a pin hole and a slot in the extension so I can pin it from rotating while I adjust the nylock bearing adjuster nut. Once I get the station ready, I speed my feedback to the spindle up about 100x by changing that 10uf filter cap out for a .2 paper/mylar. That should help considerably. Cheers, Gene Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. 2 GB Inbox? I think VMS invented this nifty little thing called mail folders. ;-) Use your filters and move mail out of your inbox to those folders, and you'll avoid the dreaded 2 GB Inbox file size limit. Mark Yes Mark, I have about 40 other folders that the mailing list traffic gets sorted to. The inbox OTOH, is PM's, a decades worth. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Most people's favorite way to end a game is by winning. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:02:26 Mark Wendt did opine: Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. 2 GB Inbox? I think VMS invented this nifty little thing called mail folders. ;-) Use your filters and move mail out of your inbox to those folders, and you'll avoid the dreaded 2 GB Inbox file size limit. Mark Yes Mark, I have about 40 other folders that the mailing list traffic gets sorted to. The inbox OTOH, is PM's, a decades worth. Cheers, Gene Hi Gene, By PM's, do you mean personal messages? I filter those out to their own mailboxes too. Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:05:05 Mark Wendt did opine: On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: snippage My new rework station from X-Tronix came in today, but I've not plugged it in just yet. But the part I've been battling to make for the 3rd time now is done except for a pin hole and a slot in the extension so I can pin it from rotating while I adjust the nylock bearing adjuster nut. Once I get the station ready, I speed my feedback to the spindle up about 100x by changing that 10uf filter cap out for a .2 paper/mylar. That should help considerably. Cheers, Gene Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. No, there are some screws in the bottom to restrain the air pump and which must be removed else the pump will be damaged, and I've not removed them yet. Maybe today. Interestingly, it came with a magnifying work lamp on a flexible goose-neck and a base heavy enough it won't fall over, a spare heater for both handles, and a bag of tips for the iron in quite a few different shapes, so I won't need tips for a while, plus a bag of nozzles for the HA. I need to read the blather sheets again, the holder for the HA handle obviously mounts someplace I haven't found yet. Nice set of tweezers for handling teensy stuff, and a couple tools I've not yet discovered what they are to be used for. There is even a screw stuck in the styro that I assume needs to be used to assemble something. All in all, for $150+ship, it looks pretty complete, just add your fav 3% silver solder, a few tablespoons of water in the sponge and go right to work after proper assembly. When I do, I'll file a report. :) Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Veni, Vidi, VISA: I came, I saw, I did a little shopping. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:24:55 Mark Wendt did opine: On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:02:26 Mark Wendt did opine: Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. 2 GB Inbox? I think VMS invented this nifty little thing called mail folders. ;-) Use your filters and move mail out of your inbox to those folders, and you'll avoid the dreaded 2 GB Inbox file size limit. Mark Yes Mark, I have about 40 other folders that the mailing list traffic gets sorted to. The inbox OTOH, is PM's, a decades worth. Cheers, Gene Hi Gene, By PM's, do you mean personal messages? I filter those out to their own mailboxes too. Mark I suppose I could but I'd have to make subfolders I can hide as I am out of vertical space in the folder column now. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Hark, the Herald Tribune sings, Advertising wondrous things. Angels we have heard on High Tell us to go out and Buy. -- Tom Lehrer -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. No, there are some screws in the bottom to restrain the air pump and which must be removed else the pump will be damaged, and I've not removed them yet. Maybe today. Interestingly, it came with a magnifying work lamp on a flexible goose-neck and a base heavy enough it won't fall over, a spare heater for both handles, and a bag of tips for the iron in quite a few different shapes, so I won't need tips for a while, plus a bag of nozzles for the HA. I need to read the blather sheets again, the holder for the HA handle obviously mounts someplace I haven't found yet. Nice set of tweezers for handling teensy stuff, and a couple tools I've not yet discovered what they are to be used for. There is even a screw stuck in the styro that I assume needs to be used to assemble something. All in all, for $150+ship, it looks pretty complete, just add your fav 3% silver solder, a few tablespoons of water in the sponge and go right to work after proper assembly. When I do, I'll file a report. :) Cheers, Gene Sounds nice! I've given up on the sponges, and gone to the brass wool tip cleaners. FWIW, I get cleaner tips, and don't have to remember to fill the damn reservoir, or dampen the sponges. And the brass wool doesn't seem to cool the tips down as much as the wet sponge does. I know some folks don't like the brass wool, but it seems to be the bee's knees for me. Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Hi Gene, By PM's, do you mean personal messages? I filter those out to their own mailboxes too. Mark I suppose I could but I'd have to make subfolders I can hide as I am out of vertical space in the folder column now. Cheers, Gene Huh. The folder column doesn't scroll? Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:37:01 Mark Wendt did opine: On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Have you had a chance to fire up the rework station yet? Interested in hearing how it works. No, there are some screws in the bottom to restrain the air pump and which must be removed else the pump will be damaged, and I've not removed them yet. Maybe today. Interestingly, it came with a magnifying work lamp on a flexible goose-neck and a base heavy enough it won't fall over, a spare heater for both handles, and a bag of tips for the iron in quite a few different shapes, so I won't need tips for a while, plus a bag of nozzles for the HA. I need to read the blather sheets again, the holder for the HA handle obviously mounts someplace I haven't found yet. Nice set of tweezers for handling teensy stuff, and a couple tools I've not yet discovered what they are to be used for. There is even a screw stuck in the styro that I assume needs to be used to assemble something. All in all, for $150+ship, it looks pretty complete, just add your fav 3% silver solder, a few tablespoons of water in the sponge and go right to work after proper assembly. When I do, I'll file a report. :) Cheers, Gene Sounds nice! I've given up on the sponges, and gone to the brass wool tip cleaners. FWIW, I get cleaner tips, and don't have to remember to fill the damn reservoir, or dampen the sponges. The dehumidfier catch bucket handles that. :) And the brass wool doesn't seem to cool the tips down as much as the wet sponge does. I know some folks don't like the brass wool, but it seems to be the bee's knees for me. Mark I have seen them in pix, but it seems to me it would wear off the tips iron plating quicker than the sponge so I've not tried one yet. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Programmers used to batch environments may find it hard to live without giant listings; we would find it hard to use them. -- D. M. Ritchie -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thursday 19 July 2012 08:40:42 Mark Wendt did opine: On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Hi Gene, By PM's, do you mean personal messages? I filter those out to their own mailboxes too. Mark I suppose I could but I'd have to make subfolders I can hide as I am out of vertical space in the folder column now. Cheers, Gene Huh. The folder column doesn't scroll? ;-) Yes. Old dogs new tricks, another way to wear out the batteries in the mouse. Whatever... Mark Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Chocolate chip. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Huh. The folder column doesn't scroll? ;-) Yes. Old dogs new tricks, another way to wear out the batteries in the mouse. Whatever... Mark Cheers, Gene ROFL! Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Sounds nice! I've given up on the sponges, and gone to the brass wool tip cleaners. FWIW, I get cleaner tips, and don't have to remember to fill the damn reservoir, or dampen the sponges. The dehumidfier catch bucket handles that. :) ;-) I don't have a water source handy to my soldering bench. And the brass wool doesn't seem to cool the tips down as much as the wet sponge does. I know some folks don't like the brass wool, but it seems to be the bee's knees for me. Mark I have seen them in pix, but it seems to me it would wear off the tips iron plating quicker than the sponge so I've not tried one yet. Cheers, Gene Been using the brass wool for about a year now, with the soldering iron in use up to 6 days a week for at least a couple hours each time. Haven't worn out a tip yet. Mark -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wednesday 18 July 2012 15:30:13 Gene Heskett did opine: On Tuesday 17 July 2012 15:47:33 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: Got them Jon, see at: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene/Genes-os9-stf/GCode/ Cheers, Gene Whoopee! Kmail upchucked and started throwing away mails this morning, or late last night, seem it can't deal with an inbox mail FILE over 2GiB. So I stopped it, along with fetchmail and its customers, then moved the inbox to inbox-old, then copied that to /var/mail/gene and restarted kmail. About 6 hours later, I discovered that kmail was running its own session of spamassassin and that it would take nominally a week to read that 2049 megabyte file at that rate. Eventually I was able to get to the filters menu and delete those filters which sped that up about 100x. But then it goes all a-gaga when it tried to read the whole file in one piece, so stop it, empty the inbox, and split that mailfile into 1Gb pieces, 3 of them. Renamed the old one, and moved the first xaa file to gene. Started kmail, took about 45 minutes to import the first gig. Wash, rinse, repeat with xab, then xac. Try to delete dups, took 15 minutes, did not. So I went thru all folders marked all mesgs as read. Restarted my mail sucking scripts and mail is coming in at about 1/second after it passes the SA and clamav gauntlets. Catchup time estimated at half an hour. So, basically what I am asking is that if you have sent me a mail since the above posting by Jon Elson, please resend it. And many many thanks for your patience. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Your boss climbed the corporate ladder, wrong by wrong. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wednesday 18 July 2012 20:40:19 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: On Tuesday 17 July 2012 15:47:33 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: Got them Jon, see at: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene/Genes-os9-stf/GCode/ Cheers, Gene Well, I don't see anything wrong. I do see the spindle P term set to 100, that may be too high for stable response. I think maybe it is. Noticing some steady state error, I jacked up the 45 for the FF0 setting to about 57 today, and now its even more funkity with the the error tending toward a smallish - figure. Since you are feeding velocity out of the encoder component, it will have a lot of fluctuation due to the sampling. Somebody, I think Andy or Peter, suggested using the filtered velocity output from the encoder component at least for the closed-loop velocity instead of the raw velocity output. It won't help for the spindle-synched axis, though. I may try that next, with a pretty high gain setting on the lowpass module, perhaps a .25. My new rework station from X-Tronix came in today, but I've not plugged it in just yet. But the part I've been battling to make for the 3rd time now is done except for a pin hole and a slot in the extension so I can pin it from rotating while I adjust the nylock bearing adjuster nut. Once I get the station ready, I speed my feedback to the spindle up about 100x by changing that 10uf filter cap out for a .2 paper/mylar. That should help considerably. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! If you are not for yourself, who will be for you? If you are for yourself, then what are you? If not now, when? -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: The spindle has a gear shift and in high gear can make 2500 revs. Thats a hair over 40 rps, and the encoder doesn't appear to be suffering from skipped counts. Yes, you numbers seem OK. Well I am getting good results at 81 teeth, you are getting both loop instability and grinding of the Z axis when synched to the spindle with 39 teeth, is that right? I think the closed-loop spindle speed control can maybe be solved with filtering, but the Z axis grinding probably can't, as putting any filter in the spindle path could cause problems. I'm surprised a 2:1 change in the spindle resolution would make that much difference. Are you running the hal encoder component in the X1 mode or the X4 mode? Is there a way to setup nfs that Just Works(TM)? This is all a private network, using host files. I _think_ all the usual suspects have been properly configured. I don't use NFS, just sftp, and it works fine and is pretty easy to move files around between machines. I have 5 machines I move files around to regularly. NFS may not work so well if the various computers are being booted and shut down a lot, which is the default here. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: I don't use NFS, just sftp, and it works fine and is pretty easy to move files around between machines. if you set up mediawiki or svn as a server on one of your machines, you can use use the resulting web server to serve files. Clients use wget to copy files. Between wget and scp, I never use sftp any more. We download the same files to many clients, wget just seems to be the easiest way to do that. Eric -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Tuesday 17 July 2012 14:51:38 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: The spindle has a gear shift and in high gear can make 2500 revs. Thats a hair over 40 rps, and the encoder doesn't appear to be suffering from skipped counts. Yes, you numbers seem OK. Well I am getting good results at 81 teeth, you are getting both loop instability and grinding of the Z axis when synched to the spindle with 39 teeth, is that right? I think the closed-loop spindle speed control can maybe be solved with filtering, but the Z axis grinding probably can't, as putting any filter in the spindle path could cause problems. I'm surprised a 2:1 change in the spindle resolution would make that much difference. Are you running the hal encoder component in the X1 mode or the X4 mode? Is there a way to setup nfs that Just Works(TM)? This is all a private network, using host files. I _think_ all the usual suspects have been properly configured. I don't use NFS, just sftp, and it works fine and is pretty easy to move files around between machines. I have 5 machines I move files around to regularly. NFS may not work so well if the various computers are being booted and shut down a lot, which is the default here. And I can never remember the ancient, arcane, and usually nearly two full lines of text of the command line that makes it work, I believe I have succeeded twice in damned near 14 years of running linux. I studied the man page for nearly 2 hours trying to decode that obtuse SOB of a man page for sftp about 3 weeks ago, gave up and asked on the ubuntu list how to make nfs work. I had an answer that worked in half an hour, but since then all 3 machines have been rebooted at least twice, and nfs is DOA. Again, for the 5th or 6th time in 10 years, I've made it work about that many times, but its gone again in 30 minutes. I used to use samba for that stuff, but Tridge broke it about 3 years back, so its been about that long since I was able to use samba for this stuff. The nfs manpages, what there is of them, all talk about doing it in /etc/fstab, the authors of such drivel conveniently and completely oblivious to the fact that one miss-typed character in /etc/fstab, and the machine will not boot from anything but the install cd, where you have to mount the drive with etc on it, then use some damned editor (nano/pico?) you have only used 3 times under duress to fix it. If you can figure out what needs fixed... Not your fault at all Jon, but when you have your own private local network, with the same install from the same cd on all 4 machines (there's a lappy in this mix too) there is absolutely zero excuse for making it so damned difficult that its easier to get dressed, grab a usb stick and copy what you want to move to it, grab the stick, bring it 100' back down the hill and plug it in here, only to find the first thing you have to do is issue as root, a chown -R gene:gene /media/keyname/ command because for some reason gene on shop, gene on lathe, and gene on coyote, while I am the default sudo enabled first user #1000 on all 4 boxes, still don't have perms to read the ^% files! What the heck is the diff, I own that file on all 4 machines! But after the chown, it works. So does mc, when nfs works, and that doesn't need the chown, it just works WHEN it works. So that is what I'll do right now in order to get the .hal and .ini files where they can be read by you folks to see where I screwed up. With good luck, half an hour maybe. But my luck hasn't been that good the last 36 hours. I just made a 2nd shaft extension for that ball screw, and the last step, cutting a thread for a 5/16 18 tpi nylock nut for bearing adjustment, stripped the threads off the end section of because I can't get a 5/16 18 thread cut when there is a .177 thru hole for the differential screw access thru it lengthways. So I've gone scouting and have both 5/16 24, and 8mmx1.0mm nuts to try, which should give me another .020 of steel for wall thickness at the bottoms of the threads. Thanks for reading this far. Jon. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! I've seen, I SAY, I've seen better heads on a mug of beer -- Senator Claghorn -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Tuesday 17 July 2012 15:47:33 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: Got them Jon, see at: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene/Genes-os9-stf/GCode/ Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: And I can never remember the ancient, arcane, and usually nearly two full lines of text of the command line that makes it work, I believe I have succeeded twice in damned near 14 years of running linux. HUH? I use commands like sftp username@ip_address then, cd, ls, pwd, and finally get or put filename. it can't be any simpler than that! Of course, you need an sshd running on the computer you want to connect to, but that is fairly simple, too. I studied the man page for nearly 2 hours trying to decode that obtuse SOB of a man page for sftp about 3 weeks ago I can't understand the problem. you cd to the directory you want to pull or push files from, then make the ssh connection, cd to the remote directory and get or put the files. If you want to change the local directory, lcd, lpwd and lls do the local version of cd, pwd and ls commands. It works mostly like the cp command. There are a buch of more complex options, I avoid them. Not your fault at all Jon, but when you have your own private local network, with the same install from the same cd on all 4 machines Not a chance, I have Beagle Boards (ARM CPU), Ubuntu (6.06 up to 12.1), Debian, CentOS and some other systems here, they all work seamlessly with sftp. I occasionally send files to/from Sun machines and other non-X86 architectures and non-Linux systems, again, no problem with sftp. (there's a lappy in this mix too) there is absolutely zero excuse for making it so damned difficult that its easier to get dressed, grab a usb stick and copy what you want to move to it, grab the stick, bring it 100' back down the hill and plug it in here, only to find the first thing you have to do is issue as root, a chown -R gene:gene /media/keyname/ command because for some reason gene on shop, gene on lathe, and gene on coyote, while I am the default sudo enabled first user #1000 on all 4 boxes, still don't have perms to read the ^% files! What the heck is the diff, I own that file on all 4 machines! OK, well, there's one of your problems. NFS is a local files system on each node, and you MUST coordinate file owner IDs across all the systems, or use proxies. sftp avoids that problem, as each end of the sftp session is logged into its machine, and files brought across get the local owner's permissions. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: On Tuesday 17 July 2012 15:47:33 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: Got them Jon, see at: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene/Genes-os9-stf/GCode/ Cheers, Gene Well, I don't see anything wrong. I do see the spindle P term set to 100, that may be too high for stable response. Since you are feeding velocity out of the encoder component, it will have a lot of fluctuation due to the sampling. Somebody, I think Andy or Peter, suggested using the filtered velocity output from the encoder component at least for the closed-loop velocity instead of the raw velocity output. It won't help for the spindle-synched axis, though. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Monday 16 July 2012 04:33:53 Ralph Stirling did opine: For that I would have to build a generator in order to send the proper quadrature. A single 74LS74 dual D-flip-flop can generate a perfect quadrature waveform from a single channel square wave generator. If you need a schematic for that I can sketch it out in the morning. -- Ralph IIRC there are several examples in the numerous chip books on the shelves above me. Thanks for the offer though, Ralph. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! The number of licorice gumballs you get out of a gumball machine increases in direct proportion to how much you hate licorice. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 16 July 2012 05:15, Ralph Stirling ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu wrote: A single 74LS74 dual D-flip-flop can generate a perfect quadrature waveform from a single channel square wave generator. If you need a schematic for that I can sketch it out in the morning. There is also a simulated_encoder HAL component. I think that that would probably mask any problems with thread timing dither if run on the same PC, but could be used on a separate PC to investigate things. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: On Sunday 15 July 2012 23:29:40 Jon Elson did opine: Now, I'm not too clear on the +/- 3 fluctuation in terms of REVOLUTIONS rather than COUNTS, which you seem to be saying above. That is exactly what I am saying Jon, using the hal encoder module. I completely expect jumps of +/- 2 counts/sample, but that should be divided by the number of encoder counts/rev. If the measured speed is jumping by +/- 3 RPS, It is. something seems to be really wrong. Well, something IS really wrong. Detective work is needed. Have you run the latency tests, with something like glxgears running, to simulate the axis 3-D preview load on the graphics system? I gather now you are using the hal encoder component. You need to be sure that the update-counters function is called from the base thread, and that the hal_parport is also called from the base thread. If these are being called from the servo thread, it will introduce higher latency and cause it to miss counts. What is the base thread set to? What is the encoder resolution and the top speed you intend to achieve? You have mentioned 20 RPS = 1200 RPM. For it to work, you need to be sure that the base thread is running fast enough that it samples more than once per count from the encoder. So, for 20 RPS x 400 counts/rev (100 tooth encoder wheel) that is 8000 counts/second. Your base thread should be twice that rate, so 16000 samples/second, or BASE_PERIOD=62500 I have not been able to see/find a signal with halscope that zeros itself on the index pulse. This only occurs when an axis is synched to the spindle, at the beginning of a threading operation such as G33 or G33.1 OK, so you've checked the sensors themselves, but maybe there is something interfering wit the computer reading the sensor signal. Since you are using the hal encoder component, the A and B quadrature signals are available to Halscope. Maybe there will be some disturbance there. It really HAS to be on these signals, the encoder component works as designed, and hasn't needed any adjustments in the counting section since 2009. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:44:45 -0500, you wrote: Steve Blackmore wrote: Same thing here too with G33. LinuxCNC is coats of paint better than Mach at threading, but it's not right. Twitchy is the best description I can give, I have two CNC lathes, they are radically different with hardware but both behave the same - they jitter really bad. It was originally reported years ago, with no response :( Hmm, strange! I have been rigid tapping on two machines for a couple years with LinuxCNC. One machine has a super-oddball spindle encoder with 6912 counts/rev, so I can understand why that one has no problems. But, the Bridgeport has an encoder made by putting gear tooth sensors on the spindle bull gear, and it has only 324 quadrature counts/rev. But, it taps great, using G33.1 There are no growling noises or other problems I can see or hear. I do tend to do the tapping fairly fast, using 1000 RPM typically on the 4-40 taps, but have run it from 200 up to 1200 RPM without trouble. Hi Jon - encoders here are only 90 and 120 ppr respectively as they are connected via parallel port as I had problems with higher value encoders being read reliably at anything more than a thousand revs or so. It almost seems that every time it gets an encoder pulse it gives the Z axis a kick. The faster you go the less noticeable it is, but at slow speeds it's poor and sounds like what Gene described. Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
out of curiosity are you using? ENCODER *encoder.*/N/*.position-interpolated* float out Position in scaled units, interpolated between encoder counts. Only valid when velocity is approximately constant and above *min-velocity-estimate*. Do not use for position control. That is supposed to smooth out the position between encoder counts. (for lower count encoders) sam On 7/16/2012 2:43 PM, Steve Blackmore wrote: On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:44:45 -0500, you wrote: Steve Blackmore wrote: Same thing here too with G33. LinuxCNC is coats of paint better than Mach at threading, but it's not right. Twitchy is the best description I can give, I have two CNC lathes, they are radically different with hardware but both behave the same - they jitter really bad. It was originally reported years ago, with no response :( Hmm, strange! I have been rigid tapping on two machines for a couple years with LinuxCNC. One machine has a super-oddball spindle encoder with 6912 counts/rev, so I can understand why that one has no problems. But, the Bridgeport has an encoder made by putting gear tooth sensors on the spindle bull gear, and it has only 324 quadrature counts/rev. But, it taps great, using G33.1 There are no growling noises or other problems I can see or hear. I do tend to do the tapping fairly fast, using 1000 RPM typically on the 4-40 taps, but have run it from 200 up to 1200 RPM without trouble. Hi Jon - encoders here are only 90 and 120 ppr respectively as they are connected via parallel port as I had problems with higher value encoders being read reliably at anything more than a thousand revs or so. It almost seems that every time it gets an encoder pulse it gives the Z axis a kick. The faster you go the less noticeable it is, but at slow speeds it's poor and sounds like what Gene described. Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Steve Blackmore st...@pilotltd.net wrote: Hi Jon - encoders here are only 90 and 120 ppr respectively as they are connected via parallel port as I had problems with higher value encoders being read reliably at anything more than a thousand revs or so. It almost seems that every time it gets an encoder pulse it gives the Z axis a kick. The faster you go the less noticeable it is, but at slow speeds it's poor and sounds like what Gene described. Steve Blackmore -- It's likely that the resolution in combination with whatever jitter you may have in reading the parport is your problem. I know I'm ignoring a long thread of emails, but with the right kind of filter, you might be able to get rid of it. I'm thinking that taking the motor drive command into account (if possible) in the filter it might overcome Jon's objection to the delay caused by the filtering. Eric -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
copy paste fail.. encoder.N.position-interpolated sam On 7/16/2012 2:53 PM, sam sokolik wrote: out of curiosity are you using? ENCODER *encoder.*/N/*.position-interpolated* float out Position in scaled units, interpolated between encoder counts. Only valid when velocity is approximately constant and above *min-velocity-estimate*. Do not use for position control. That is supposed to smooth out the position between encoder counts. (for lower count encoders) sam On 7/16/2012 2:43 PM, Steve Blackmore wrote: On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:44:45 -0500, you wrote: Steve Blackmore wrote: Same thing here too with G33. LinuxCNC is coats of paint better than Mach at threading, but it's not right. Twitchy is the best description I can give, I have two CNC lathes, they are radically different with hardware but both behave the same - they jitter really bad. It was originally reported years ago, with no response :( Hmm, strange! I have been rigid tapping on two machines for a couple years with LinuxCNC. One machine has a super-oddball spindle encoder with 6912 counts/rev, so I can understand why that one has no problems. But, the Bridgeport has an encoder made by putting gear tooth sensors on the spindle bull gear, and it has only 324 quadrature counts/rev. But, it taps great, using G33.1 There are no growling noises or other problems I can see or hear. I do tend to do the tapping fairly fast, using 1000 RPM typically on the 4-40 taps, but have run it from 200 up to 1200 RPM without trouble. Hi Jon - encoders here are only 90 and 120 ppr respectively as they are connected via parallel port as I had problems with higher value encoders being read reliably at anything more than a thousand revs or so. It almost seems that every time it gets an encoder pulse it gives the Z axis a kick. The faster you go the less noticeable it is, but at slow speeds it's poor and sounds like what Gene described. Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012, Eric Keller wrote: Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:57:56 -0400 From: Eric Keller eekel...@psu.edu Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: st...@pilotltd.net, Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Steve Blackmore st...@pilotltd.net wrote: Hi Jon - encoders here are only 90 and 120 ppr respectively as they are connected via parallel port as I had problems with higher value encoders being read reliably at anything more than a thousand revs or so. It almost seems that every time it gets an encoder pulse it gives the Z axis a kick. The faster you go the less noticeable it is, but at slow speeds it's poor and sounds like what Gene described. Steve Blackmore -- It's likely that the resolution in combination with whatever jitter you may have in reading the parport is your problem. I know I'm ignoring a long thread of emails, but with the right kind of filter, you might be able to get rid of it. I'm thinking that taking the motor drive command into account (if possible) in the filter it might overcome Jon's objection to the delay caused by the filtering. Eric -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Actually it seems that people that have trouble with encoder comp velocity jitter may have the encoder connected incorrectly in the HAL file and thus do not get the improved, timestamped encoder edge velocity estimate. Getting a velocity spike every encoder count is a givaway Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Steve Blackmore wrote: Hi Jon - encoders here are only 90 and 120 ppr respectively as they are connected via parallel port as I had problems with higher value encoders being read reliably at anything more than a thousand revs or so. It almost seems that every time it gets an encoder pulse it gives the Z axis a kick. The faster you go the less noticeable it is, but at slow speeds it's poor and sounds like what Gene described. OK, my Bridgeport encoder would be called an 81 PPR encoder, as there are 81 teeth on the gear. And, it works fine. I am using a hardware encoder counter with it, but if the signals are properly being read by the parallel port, it SHOULD work well. So, there is something wrong there, but I can't tell what at this distance. Yes, software counting has severe limits on the count rate. Well, 120 PPR is 480 counts/rev in quadrature counting all transitions, and 1000 RPM is 16.67 revs/sec. So, that is 8000 counts/second. Depending on the BASE_PERIOD, this could already be a problem. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Monday 16 July 2012 23:34:22 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: On Sunday 15 July 2012 23:29:40 Jon Elson did opine: Now, I'm not too clear on the +/- 3 fluctuation in terms of REVOLUTIONS rather than COUNTS, which you seem to be saying above. That is exactly what I am saying Jon, using the hal encoder module. I completely expect jumps of +/- 2 counts/sample, but that should be divided by the number of encoder counts/rev. If the measured speed is jumping by +/- 3 RPS, It is. something seems to be really wrong. Well, something IS really wrong. Detective work is needed. Have you run the latency tests, with something like glxgears running, to simulate the axis 3-D preview load on the graphics system? Yes, overnight even, latency is very very good, 2.3 u-secs. I gather now you are using the hal encoder component. You need to be sure that the update-counters function is called from the base thread, and that the hal_parport is also called from the base thread. If these are being called from the servo thread, it will introduce higher latency and cause it to miss counts. What is the base thread set to? 23,000 What is the encoder resolution 39 slots, 156 edges in quadrature mode. and the top speed you intend to achieve? You have mentioned 20 RPS = 1200 RPM. The spindle has a gear shift and in high gear can make 2500 revs. Thats a hair over 40 rps, and the encoder doesn't appear to be suffering from skipped counts. For it to work, you need to be sure that the base thread is running fast enough that it samples more than once per count from the encoder. So, for 20 RPS x 400 counts/rev (100 tooth encoder wheel) that is 8000 counts/second. Your base thread should be twice that rate, so 16000 samples/second, or BASE_PERIOD=62500 Way faster than that, 23000, and the wheel has only 39 slots. I have not been able to see/find a signal with halscope that zeros itself on the index pulse. This only occurs when an axis is synched to the spindle, at the beginning of a threading operation such as G33 or G33.1 OK, so you've checked the sensors themselves, but maybe there is something interfering wit the computer reading the sensor signal. Since you are using the hal encoder component, the A and B quadrature signals are available to Halscope. Maybe there will be some disturbance there. None visible. If I run the speed open loop, the worst I can see if the reset falling edge is jittering at nominally 1 count of the base thread, one pixel's worth of jitter in the halscope. It really HAS to be on these signals, the encoder component works as designed, and hasn't needed any adjustments in the counting section since 2009. I was going to copy my .hal file over and post it, but for some unk reason I suspect I'll have to reboot this box to restore NFS to usable. I did have it working a couple days after the last reboot, but the /net directories on all 3 machines are now empty except for the lathe box, it can see its name as /net/lathe, but /net/lathe is empty on lathe.coyote.den. Is there a way to setup nfs that Just Works(TM)? This is all a private network, using host files. I _think_ all the usual suspects have been properly configured. Thanks Jon. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Etiquette is for those with no breeding; fashion for those with no taste. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 15 July 2012 02:56, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: No home made With optical pickup The problem with a single-channel encoder is that if you double-count an edge then the apparent velocity appears to suddenly increase massively. Quadrature counting almost entirely eliminates this problem. If you can add a second sensor N + 1/2 pitches away from the first one to provide a quadrature signal then you should see better results. You will also have the ability to sense spindle direction, and that means that rigid tapping becomes more possible (you also need an index for that, but index is fairly easy to add) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Yes this is what I have 2 optical pickups setup n+1/2 The disk has 125 holes and appears to work right and fare as being able to detect directions And when I turn the spindle one rotation the encoder count moves 500 counts -Original Message- From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 5:09 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On 15 July 2012 02:56, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: No home made With optical pickup The problem with a single-channel encoder is that if you double-count an edge then the apparent velocity appears to suddenly increase massively. Quadrature counting almost entirely eliminates this problem. If you can add a second sensor N + 1/2 pitches away from the first one to provide a quadrature signal then you should see better results. You will also have the ability to sense spindle direction, and that means that rigid tapping becomes more possible (you also need an index for that, but index is fairly easy to add) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 15 July 2012 13:39, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: The disk has 125 holes And when I turn the spindle one rotation the encoder count moves 500 counts Yes, that is normal. Encoder counters count every transition, so a 512 slot encoder is 2048ppr. But if you turn the spindle slowly you should see them count up in ones. How accurate is the 90 degree shift? Halscope might be able to tell you at a slow steady speed (if the individual pins show up in Halscope) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 08:32:08 andy pugh did opine: On 15 July 2012 02:56, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: No home made With optical pickup The problem with a single-channel encoder is that if you double-count an edge then the apparent velocity appears to suddenly increase massively. Quadrature counting almost entirely eliminates this problem. If you can add a second sensor N + 1/2 pitches away from the first one to provide a quadrature signal then you should see better results. You will also have the ability to sense spindle direction, and that means that rigid tapping becomes more possible (you also need an index for that, but index is fairly easy to add) All very true Andy. But I think I just figured out why my encoder signals that look great on a 100 mhz scope, are so noisy digitally. I may have, at the AB inputs, perfect square waves whose duty cycle is within a percent of 50/50, and whose quadrature is a near perfect 90 degrees. This should give an accurate digital image of the spindles position, right? But this is the real world, the duty cycle might be 48/52 for one cell, and 49/51 for the other. By the same mechanism, quadrature might be off 2 degrees depending on which edge. I made about 15 wheels to get it that close. But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. Perhaps with more resolution than my 39 cycle wheel, which is 156 counts per turn or a new position every 2.3076923076923076923 degrees of rotation, it might improve. But the addition of the noise caused by the 1 millisecond granularity of the floating point error process is an apparently huge error sample to sample. Looking at the encoder output scaled to rps, with the spindle at full 1200 rpm (in low gear) s/b an rps of an even 20. With the rotational mass of that several pound chuck, there is zero chance of even a .1 rps REAL error. Its very difficult to determine without running that signal thru a lowpass block with a gain setting of .001 before feeding it to a halmeter, because even at that rps, the halmeter flickers between 17 and 23 from this (to me utterly false) digital noise! When cutting threads with the G76 canned cycle, with the spindle between 2 and 6 rps, it cuts great threads, but the racket as the z motor tries to track this noise is similar to slowly dropping a shovel full of pea gravel into a washtub. I should post a video with audio, its very rough sounding. I am not privy to how the encoder module works internally, but it seems to me that if a timestamp could be put on the base thread sample _only_ when a new edge is detected, giving the encoders FP thread an idea of how long the data has been in that state, one that could be compared to the instant time, then much of this digital error noise could be calculated away by simply using that frozen timestamp as the basis for the calculations instead of the instant system time. Only when this has been done should the elapsed time differences be applied to compensate for the actual age of the sample, which in turn should give us a pretty good idea of the spindles actual position at the instant the FP thread runs, doing it to a small fraction of a degree in spite of a 2.3 degree granularity in the encoder wheel. Food for thought. Or am I carrying coal to Newcastle here? That, and I'm still a litre low on coffee, I made it, but haven't input any yet. But I survived the night, so a hearty good morning to all! Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full. -- Henry Kissinger -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 15 July 2012 14:45, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. The counts shouldn't be more than a thread-dither old (10uS or so). The calculation function reads the latest count from the base thread functions (possibly a base-thread old). The FPGA in the Pico card being discussed here ought to make an even better job at being up-to-date. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 10:32:13 andy pugh did opine: On 15 July 2012 14:45, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. The counts shouldn't be more than a thread-dither old (10uS or so). The calculation function reads the latest count from the base thread functions (possibly a base-thread old). But does it timestamp that data marking the last time it changed? Thinking further about the quadrature thing, it would seem to be a Good Thing if it carried a 4 element time stamp in a rotating buffer so that the time stamps could be added as ints and right shifted 2 places in order to get the average velocity per count over a 4 count cycle. Even that seems to me it would be one heck of a noise filter for any mechanical errors by averaging the 2% or so errors over a full slot. The definition of slot being completely arbitrary as long as its 4 consecutive edges. How that would work in the face of a direction reversal might make an interesting problem. I do believe its solvable though. By keeping a 4 element array of time stamps, with the address of the element in the array being derived by the A/B since the 2 bits of data would make the last 2 bits of the address into the array, it could then be updated every base thread by writing that timestamp to the AB address of the array, no time consuming conditionals needed. That way the average speed and instant direction could be determined in the FP servo thread using the granularity of the base thread. The servo thread math could determine the direction by looking at the time stamps (find the newest one, then which side is the next newest one on is direction) since the order will change with the direction. The FPGA in the Pico card being discussed here ought to make an even better job at being up-to-date. How hard is it to use this pico card with the d525mw boards? They are shall we say, slot starved. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! A mind is a terrible thing to have leaking out your ears. -- The League of Sadistic Telepaths -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 11:10:43 andy pugh did opine: On 15 July 2012 14:45, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. The counts shouldn't be more than a thread-dither old (10uS or so). The calculation function reads the latest count from the base thread functions (possibly a base-thread old). The FPGA in the Pico card being discussed here ought to make an even better job at being up-to-date. www.mesanet.com is unreachable this morning. :( Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Q: What do monsters eat? A: Things. Q: What do monsters drink? A: Coke. (Because Things go better with Coke.) -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kasey Matejcek wrote: No home made With optical pickup Well, have you checked the quality of the signals, especially when the spindle drive is running the motor? There may be some kind of interference that is upsetting the encoder/counter circuit. Probably examining the encoder velocity pin with Halscope will reveal if there are artifacts. If the spindle speed appears to jump rapidly, that is not physically possible. But, don't worry about apparent multiple counting, as the servo thread only samples position every one ms, assuming the servo thread is at the nominal rate. So, if you are running at 8 revs/second (480 RPM) then you would get 8 * 500 counts/second = 4000 counts/second, or 4 counts/servo period. These would appear to happen all at once, but the total position is just read once per ms. If the encoder velocity is free of any abnormal spikes, then you need to step through the PID control with Halscope, and see what pid.x.output is doing. If it is swinging wildly, then it needs more damping. The motor and spindle inertia will give it significant lag, and that lag makes a control loop hard to balance. What is happening is the PID senses the speed is too low and commands more output. the motor slowly speeds up the inertia of the spindle, and by the time it reaches desired speed, the system is accelerating, and it overshoots. D helps this by backing off when it sees the error decreasing. I can be counterproductive, as it places too much emphasis on past history, making the lag dominant. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
andy pugh wrote: Yes, that is normal. Encoder counters count every transition, so a 512 slot encoder is 2048ppr. But if you turn the spindle slowly you should see them count up in ones. How accurate is the 90 degree shift? Halscope might be able to tell you at a slow steady speed (if the individual pins show up in Halscope) They don't, when using the encoder counters of a Pico Systems board. Kasey could temporarily hook them to general digital inputs on the board to check this, if he doesn't have a hardware scope. Actually, though, if you turn the spindle at a slow enough, but steady rate, the appearance of the counts should show up in the encoder.x.velocity hal pin as a series of spikes, and should be regularly spaced. That is probably good enough to check the phasing. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. Perhaps with more resolution than my 39 cycle wheel, which is 156 counts per turn or a new position every 2.3076923076923076923 degrees of rotation, it might improve. Right, the count may come in just before or just after the sample is taken. But the addition of the noise caused by the 1 millisecond granularity of the floating point error process is an apparently huge error sample to sample. It has nothing to do with floating point, it is just the nature of a sampled system. The coarser the encoder resolution is, then the greater the difference in whether you got that count or didn't, on this servo period. The worst case is when the encoder is providing less than one count every servo period. Say 500 counts/second with a 1 ms period, you alternately get zero, one, zero, then one count per period. It APPEARS the axis is stopping and starting 500 times a second. Its very difficult to determine without running that signal thru a lowpass block with a gain setting of .001 before feeding it to a halmeter, because even at that rps, the halmeter flickers between 17 and 23 from this (to me utterly false) digital noise! It isn't digital noise, it is the downside of quantization. When cutting threads with the G76 canned cycle, with the spindle between 2 and 6 rps, it cuts great threads, but the racket as the z motor tries to track this noise is similar to slowly dropping a shovel full of pea gravel into a washtub. I should post a video with audio, its very rough sounding. I am not privy to how the encoder module works internally, but it seems to me that if a timestamp could be put on the base thread sample The software encoder component, Mesa encoder counters and the Pico Systems UPC controller all can do this. For the UPC you have to enable this feature with a parameter on the command line. I'm not sure how much it can help with very low-res encoders, there is a certain speed at which is switches over from timestamp to position delta, but as long as it is less than two counts per servo period it should be using the timestamp. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
andy pugh wrote: On 15 July 2012 14:45, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. The counts shouldn't be more than a thread-dither old (10uS or so). The calculation function reads the latest count from the base thread functions (possibly a base-thread old). The FPGA in the Pico card being discussed here ought to make an even better job at being up-to-date. The Pico Systems USC does not have this feature (timestamping of encoder count arrival). The UPC does. The position CAN be thought of as stale as the encoder gives no info between counts. So, if it crossed the boundary to a new position a while ago, you have no way to know how close it is to crossing the next boundary. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: But does it timestamp that data marking the last time it changed? It is done in a different way, but it DOES work. It only keeps the timestamp of the last change, and the running timestamp clock. By comparing the two numbers, you know how long ago it has been since the last count came in. That sets an upper bound on the velocity. How hard is it to use this pico card with the d525mw boards? They are shall we say, slot starved. All our boards use the parallel port, they don't use PCI slots. But, right now only the UPC has the encoder timestamp feature. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 16:45:27 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. Perhaps with more resolution than my 39 cycle wheel, which is 156 counts per turn or a new position every 2.3076923076923076923 degrees of rotation, it might improve. Right, the count may come in just before or just after the sample is taken. But the addition of the noise caused by the 1 millisecond granularity of the floating point error process is an apparently huge error sample to sample. It has nothing to do with floating point, it is just the nature of a sampled system. The coarser the encoder resolution is, then the greater the difference in whether you got that count or didn't, on this servo period. The worst case is when the encoder is providing less than one count every servo period. Say 500 counts/second with a 1 ms period, you alternately get zero, one, zero, then one count per period. It APPEARS the axis is stopping and starting 500 times a second. Its very difficult to determine without running that signal thru a lowpass block with a gain setting of .001 before feeding it to a halmeter, because even at that rps, the halmeter flickers between 17 and 23 from this (to me utterly false) digital noise! It isn't digital noise, it is the downside of quantization. Its the same destroying the validity of the data effect Jon. When cutting threads with the G76 canned cycle, with the spindle between 2 and 6 rps, it cuts great threads, but the racket as the z motor tries to track this noise is similar to slowly dropping a shovel full of pea gravel into a washtub. I should post a video with audio, its very rough sounding. I am not privy to how the encoder module works internally, but it seems to me that if a timestamp could be put on the base thread sample The software encoder component, Mesa encoder counters and the Pico Systems UPC controller all can do this. For the UPC you have to enable this feature with a parameter on the command line. I'm not sure how much it can help with very low-res encoders, there is a certain speed at which is switches over from timestamp to position delta, but as long as it is less than two counts per servo period it should be using the timestamp. If it is using time stamps at low rps, below 0.012820512820512820513 rps in my case, I don't see it. The error output is so close to rail to rail. It will accel for about 30 degrees, the coast for 30 degrees at my pwm's minimum setting, which IIRC is about a .078% duty cycle at creep speed, perhaps 1/3 rps. With 156 edges/rev in my setup, and your 2 edges per servo thread the rev is then divided into 78 pieces. So to get 2 edges in 1ms, it has to turn about 6.45 rps. If my button pushing on the calculator is correct... Somehow, it seems to me there really ought to be a better way to develop a smoother error signal. One totally based on the elapsed time between edges, and perhaps smoothed over the last 4 edges when in the quadrature mode. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! It was a JOKE!! Get it?? I was receiving messages from DAVID LETTERMAN!! YOW!! -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 17:01:22 Jon Elson did opine: andy pugh wrote: On 15 July 2012 14:45, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: But the internal calculations for velocity etc are done at the servo threads granularity of nominally 1 millisecond. So there is no chance of the figures being accurate when the count may be up to a millisecond old. The counts shouldn't be more than a thread-dither old (10uS or so). The calculation function reads the latest count from the base thread functions (possibly a base-thread old). The FPGA in the Pico card being discussed here ought to make an even better job at being up-to-date. The Pico Systems USC does not have this feature (timestamping of encoder count arrival). The UPC does. The position CAN be thought of as stale as the encoder gives no info between counts. So, if it crossed the boundary to a new position a while ago, you have no way to know how close it is to crossing the next boundary. Jon Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. Then add the last few digits for the position it is expected to be at the servo threads time. The only thing to complicate that would be a motion reversal within that 4 sample period. Or maybe I don't fully appreciate the problem. No explanation offered so far seems to explain why the encoders rps output, at a mechanical speed of 20 rps, has +- 3.xxx or more from the 20 its actually doing, flickering in the halmeter output. And this 'noise' does not seem to be all that much effected by the actual speed regardless of the speed as long as its over about 1 rps. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of. -- Burt Bacharach -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 17:15:06 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: But does it timestamp that data marking the last time it changed? It is done in a different way, but it DOES work. It only keeps the timestamp of the last change, and the running timestamp clock. By comparing the two numbers, you know how long ago it has been since the last count came in. That sets an upper bound on the velocity. How hard is it to use this pico card with the d525mw boards? They are shall we say, slot starved. All our boards use the parallel port, they don't use PCI slots. But, right now only the UPC has the encoder timestamp feature. Jon URL? Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Well, I'm disenchanted too. We're all disenchanted. -- James Thurber -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 15 July 2012 22:14, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. That's quite a lot like putting a lowpass on the velocity output. I know you want a more satisfactory solution, and so would I after spending so long making the encoder so perfect, but pragmatically a filter will probably work. I actually get a whole lot of dither from my lathe encoder, and I have never really figured out why. I just assume it isn't a great encoder. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:45:06 -0400, you wrote: When cutting threads with the G76 canned cycle, with the spindle between 2 and 6 rps, it cuts great threads, but the racket as the z motor tries to track this noise is similar to slowly dropping a shovel full of pea gravel into a washtub. I should post a video with audio, its very rough sounding. Same thing here too with G33. LinuxCNC is coats of paint better than Mach at threading, but it's not right. Twitchy is the best description I can give, I have two CNC lathes, they are radically different with hardware but both behave the same - they jitter really bad. It was originally reported years ago, with no response :( Food for thought. Or am I carrying coal to Newcastle here? That, and I'm still a litre low on coffee, I made it, but haven't input any yet. But I survived the night, so a hearty good morning to all! No - it's just everybody in Newcastle is selectively deaf ;) Anyways Morning Gene! - more of us old farts made another day, unfortunately this one has to go to bed - work in 4 hours :( Steve Blackmore -- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 20:51:58 andy pugh did opine: On 15 July 2012 22:14, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. That's quite a lot like putting a lowpass on the velocity output. I tried that too Andy, but the 'gain' had to be cranked into the .001 range to get a value that only had the last 5% in it, and at that gain, the settling time was many seconds. The basic problem there is that the last value clocked in is 50% weighted. If the whole thing was a shift register that read out in parallel, so an instant value variation if the gain was .25, would only contribute 25%, with the old value shifted out to null. That would absorb a lot of the digital noise by averaging the mechanics out over 4 edges, and would settle fast enough to be usable. The lowpass does not. But here is a thought. The lowpass can be 'loaded', then allowed to drift as needed, if we can figure out when to enable the load pin. The $64 question, that. I know you want a more satisfactory solution, and so would I after spending so long making the encoder so perfect, but pragmatically a filter will probably work. By the time you think you can see it might be helping, the lag getting through it is playing tiddly-winks with stability, overshoots and oscillation then become the order of the day. Or at least that was my experience when I was trying to make the first few disks I made actually work. I actually get a whole lot of dither from my lathe encoder, and I have never really figured out why. I just assume it isn't a great encoder. Mine, on my 100mhz dual trace, might have 2% dither a half degree quadrature error right now. There is no way that I can see that would multiply that small a wibble into a + - 40% velocity error on a servo- thread run to the next servo-thread run basis. Do you still have the ebay sellers name that had those extra long setscrews to make these dual diameter bolts from? I swear that I saw some at Lowes in that aisle with all the drawers of odd parts, but tonight the longest they had in 5/16-18 allen set screws was 1/2. That obviously won't fly. I also darned near had to swim home, Just as I hit the Brushy Fork road traffic light on 33 headed back west toward Weston, somebody opened up a big, long zipper in the bottom of the overcast slightly noisy sky. 2 miles later I am down to about 35 mph on a 70 mph road, 4 way flashers running, and hydroplaning intermittently in a 99 GMC pickup truck that says it weighs 7200 lbs on the door post, it was 4 deep in the ruts of the worn blacktop. I didn't get back up to 50 mph shut the 4 ways off for about 9 miles. I also passed several other vehicles whose drivers had the sense god gave a goose and had pulled over to let it go by. It has settled some now, but the telly is still yipping about more of the same warning us about flash floods. But while I can see the river from here, I'm also 50 feet above its banks safe. This is West Virginia after all. I used to have a friend that farmed south of town 5 miles or so, whose land was pretty steep he claimed he could farm both sides of some of it. I think he must have had more than 400 acres, all folded up to fit in 160 surveyed acres from my deer hunting on it years ago. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Suddenly, Professor Liebowitz realizes he has come to the seminar without his duck ... -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 21:49:10 Steve Blackmore did opine: Hi Steve, long time quiet it seems. On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:45:06 -0400, you wrote: When cutting threads with the G76 canned cycle, with the spindle between 2 and 6 rps, it cuts great threads, but the racket as the z motor tries to track this noise is similar to slowly dropping a shovel full of pea gravel into a washtub. I should post a video with audio, its very rough sounding. Same thing here too with G33. LinuxCNC is coats of paint better than Mach at threading, but it's not right. Twitchy is the best description I can give, I have two CNC lathes, they are radically different with hardware but both behave the same - they jitter really bad. It was originally reported years ago, with no response :( Food for thought. Or am I carrying coal to Newcastle here? That, and I'm still a litre low on coffee, I made it, but haven't input any yet. But I survived the night, so a hearty good morning to all! No - it's just everybody in Newcastle is selectively deaf ;) I guess thats why I am back to making complaining noises. :) Anyways Morning Gene! - more of us old farts made another day, unfortunately this one has to go to bed - work in 4 hours :( Ah, the infamous graveyard shift I see from the time in the header. 4 hours doesn't cover me, never did. I need about 7, but with diabetes, that comes in 3 hour pieces between leg cramps short cycling kidneys. Steve Blackmore Take care Steve. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Still looking for the glorious results of my misspent youth. Say, do you have a map to the next joint? -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
I'll hook up a scope to it and check the phase on them I've looked at one at a time so fare and there pretty clean on my 20mhz scope I'll get the 2 channel out and check both and the same time and phase -Original Message- From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:13 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp andy pugh wrote: Yes, that is normal. Encoder counters count every transition, so a 512 slot encoder is 2048ppr. But if you turn the spindle slowly you should see them count up in ones. How accurate is the 90 degree shift? Halscope might be able to tell you at a slow steady speed (if the individual pins show up in Halscope) They don't, when using the encoder counters of a Pico Systems board. Kasey could temporarily hook them to general digital inputs on the board to check this, if he doesn't have a hardware scope. Actually, though, if you turn the spindle at a slow enough, but steady rate, the appearance of the counts should show up in the encoder.x.velocity hal pin as a series of spikes, and should be regularly spaced. That is probably good enough to check the phasing. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. Sounds great at first, but then you are basing the control loop on past history, which makes it even slower to respond to what is happening NOW. Sure, it will smooth out the growling due to a very coarse encoder, but it is a real compromise. Then add the last few digits for the position it is expected to be at the servo threads time. The only thing to complicate that would be a motion reversal within that 4 sample period. Yup, that would foul things up a lot, if you ever want to do rigid tapping. The reversal would be seriously smoothed out and you might break taps or mangle the threads. Or maybe I don't fully appreciate the problem. No explanation offered so far seems to explain why the encoders rps output, at a mechanical speed of 20 rps, has +- 3.xxx or more from the 20 its actually doing, flickering in the halmeter output. And this 'noise' does not seem to be all that much effected by the actual speed regardless of the speed as long as its over about 1 rps. Well, every sample period will have a guaranteed +/- 1 count jitter. And, they are correlated, so if the extra count is in this sample, then the next one will probably be short one count. So, that explains jumps of +/- 2 counts between adjacent samples. Yes, this jitter of +/- 1 count per sample will remain constant and NOT scale with velocity, as it is a timing relationship between when the counts occur and when the position is sampled. So, I expect that part. Now, I'm not too clear on the +/- 3 fluctuation in terms of REVOLUTIONS rather than COUNTS, which you seem to be saying above. I completely expect jumps of +/- 2 counts/sample, but that should be divided by the number of encoder counts/rev. If the measured speed is jumping by +/- 3 RPS, something seems to be really wrong. Can you look at the encoder velocity in count units? (That is ppmc.0.encoder.x.delta on pico systems boards.) This value DOES jump to zero for one sample whenever the encoder syncs to the spindle, by the way. The encoder velocity pin (scaled from counts to rotations/second for a spindle axis) is fudged, it retains the previous value for that one sample where velocity can't be known when the spindle syncs. And, finally, I think you may need to get an oscilloscope on the encoder outputs to see if they are picking up noise or possibly failing to follow the pattern on the encoder disc at higher speeds. If these sensors need a pull-up resistor, then possibly the value of that resistor needs to be changed. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: On Sunday 15 July 2012 17:15:06 Jon Elson did opine: All our boards use the parallel port, they don't use PCI slots. But, right now only the UPC has the encoder timestamp feature. Jon URL? The overall one is : http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/index.php The universal PWM controller is : http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3products_id=19 Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. Then add the last few digits for the position it is expected to be at the servo threads time. The only thing to complicate that would be a motion reversal within that 4 sample period. Or maybe I don't fully appreciate the problem. No explanation offered so far seems to explain why the encoders rps output, at a mechanical speed of 20 rps, has +- 3.xxx or more from the 20 its actually doing, flickering in the halmeter output. And this 'noise' does not seem to be all that much effected by the actual speed regardless of the speed as long as its over about 1 rps. Cheers, Gene Thats an awful lot of jitter (15 %). I certainly dont see that with our hardware that timestamps the encoder edges in conjunction with the driver doing a counts/time_between_counts calculation of estimated velocity. The software velocity estimation works the same as the hardware AFAIK, so should have reasonably good jitter performance. So there are a couple of possibilities I see 1. Are you use the encoder components velocity output? 2. Is this wired to the PID comps feedback-deriv input? 3. Do you actually have a good signal from the encoder? (things like HF tortional vibrations can play hell with velocity estimation by causing apparent reversals at low speeds) Note that Scott Hasse in his using the encoder counter for a A-D scheme with a V-F thought there was a problem with the encoder comp but found out jitter in his signal was the problem, and that the encoder comp performed as well as it could given the jitter and resolution of the basethread timestamp http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net/msg37885.html Can you connect a signal generator to the encoder comp and bifurcate the problem? Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
andy pugh wrote: On 15 July 2012 22:14, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. That's quite a lot like putting a lowpass on the velocity output. No, it is not a lot LIKE a lowpass, I think it is EXACTLY a type of lowpass filter. In a steady-state system, it might be a reasonable thing to do, assuming you are never losing any encoder counts. But, it is papering over a problem, whatever it may be. In a non-steady state system, where loads on the motor change and maybe even the spindle reverses while a tap is in the work, it is a REALLY bad thing to do. I know you want a more satisfactory solution, and so would I after spending so long making the encoder so perfect, but pragmatically a filter will probably work. I actually get a whole lot of dither from my lathe encoder, and I have never really figured out why. I just assume it isn't a great encoder. I have a 324 count/rev encoder that uses an 81-tooth bull gear in my Bridgeport, and three gear tooth sensors from Avago. Details are at http://pico-systems.com/bridge_spindle.html This works great. The Z servos do not grumble at all, although I will mention that almost all threading I have done with it has been fine thread, such as 4-40 to 10-32. The spindle speed display, however, DID jump all over the place, so I put a lowpass filter on the DISPLAYED speed only, not in the feedback path to the CNC control. So, I'm not sure how this 324 count/rev compares to the systems that are giving problems. I do NOT have encoder time stamping on that system, by the way. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Steve Blackmore wrote: Same thing here too with G33. LinuxCNC is coats of paint better than Mach at threading, but it's not right. Twitchy is the best description I can give, I have two CNC lathes, they are radically different with hardware but both behave the same - they jitter really bad. It was originally reported years ago, with no response :( Hmm, strange! I have been rigid tapping on two machines for a couple years with LinuxCNC. One machine has a super-oddball spindle encoder with 6912 counts/rev, so I can understand why that one has no problems. But, the Bridgeport has an encoder made by putting gear tooth sensors on the spindle bull gear, and it has only 324 quadrature counts/rev. But, it taps great, using G33.1 There are no growling noises or other problems I can see or hear. I do tend to do the tapping fairly fast, using 1000 RPM typically on the 4-40 taps, but have run it from 200 up to 1200 RPM without trouble. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: I tried that too Andy, but the 'gain' had to be cranked into the .001 range to get a value that only had the last 5% in it, and at that gain, the settling time was many seconds. The basic problem there is that the last value clocked in is 50% weighted. If the whole thing was a shift register that read out in parallel, so an instant value variation if the gain was .25, would only contribute 25%, with the old value shifted out to null. That would absorb a lot of the digital noise by averaging the mechanics out over 4 edges, and would settle fast enough to be usable. The lowpass does not. But here is a thought. The lowpass can be 'loaded', then allowed to drift as needed, if we can figure out when to enable the load pin. The $64 question, that. It would not be hard to write a 4-stage boxcar averager HAL component that does what you want. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Sunday 15 July 2012 23:29:40 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. Sounds great at first, but then you are basing the control loop on past history, which makes it even slower to respond to what is happening NOW. Sure, it will smooth out the growling due to a very coarse encoder, but it is a real compromise. Then add the last few digits for the position it is expected to be at the servo threads time. The only thing to complicate that would be a motion reversal within that 4 sample period. Yup, that would foul things up a lot, if you ever want to do rigid tapping. The reversal would be seriously smoothed out and you might break taps or mangle the threads. Or maybe I don't fully appreciate the problem. No explanation offered so far seems to explain why the encoders rps output, at a mechanical speed of 20 rps, has +- 3.xxx or more from the 20 its actually doing, flickering in the halmeter output. And this 'noise' does not seem to be all that much effected by the actual speed regardless of the speed as long as its over about 1 rps. Well, every sample period will have a guaranteed +/- 1 count jitter. And, they are correlated, so if the extra count is in this sample, then the next one will probably be short one count. So, that explains jumps of +/- 2 counts between adjacent samples. Yes, this jitter of +/- 1 count per sample will remain constant and NOT scale with velocity, as it is a timing relationship between when the counts occur and when the position is sampled. So, I expect that part. Now, I'm not too clear on the +/- 3 fluctuation in terms of REVOLUTIONS rather than COUNTS, which you seem to be saying above. That is exactly what I am saying Jon, using the hal encoder module. I completely expect jumps of +/- 2 counts/sample, but that should be divided by the number of encoder counts/rev. If the measured speed is jumping by +/- 3 RPS, It is. something seems to be really wrong. It is, even when turning 20 rps, I see readings that flicker into view that range from 17.xx to 23.xx in the halmeter. But the spindle isn't making any wow wow noises, its dead steady, it can't be otherwise when the chuck weighs a good 4 or 5 pounds, that is one heck of a flywheel. Its a 5 4 jaw. Can you look at the encoder velocity in count units? I believe I have, several times, but IIRC that value never zeros, it is incremented or decremented continuously according to the direction the spindle is turning. I have not been able to see/find a signal with halscope that zeros itself on the index pulse. (That is ppmc.0.encoder.x.delta on pico systems boards.) This value DOES jump to zero for one sample whenever the encoder syncs to the spindle, by the way. The encoder velocity pin (scaled from counts to rotations/second for a spindle axis) is fudged, it retains the previous value for that one sample where velocity can't be known when the spindle syncs. And, finally, I think you may need to get an oscilloscope on the encoder outputs to see if they are picking up noise or possibly failing to follow the pattern on the encoder disc at higher speeds. If these sensors need a pull-up resistor, then possibly the value of that resistor needs to be changed. No pullups or pulldowns needed, this particular sensor outputs a very solid, no noise visible in my 100mhz dual trace Hitachi V-1065, logic that runs rail to rail (+-10 millivolts of the rail, its output stage is cmos) in about 15-20ns for its rise fall times, at any rotational speed including high gears 2500 rpm, or 40 rps. These sensors have some hysteresis so despite looking for it with the lights turned off, I have never seen a 'contact bounce'. Its getting late now, but I'll get my current .hal file where it can be grabbed tomorrow. Maybe I have that foobared somehow. Thanks Jon. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. -- Albert Einstein -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Monday 16 July 2012 00:04:34 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: On Sunday 15 July 2012 17:15:06 Jon Elson did opine: All our boards use the parallel port, they don't use PCI slots. But, right now only the UPC has the encoder timestamp feature. Jon URL? The overall one is : http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/index.php The universal PWM controller is : http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3product s_id=19 Jon Thanks Jon, bookmarked for future reference. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! God gave man two ears and one tongue so that we listen twice as much as we speak. -- Arab proverb -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Monday 16 July 2012 00:07:18 Peter C. Wallace did opine: Sure there is Jon. Timestamp the last 4 edges so you can develop an average speed over the total time period of those 4 stamps. Then add the last few digits for the position it is expected to be at the servo threads time. The only thing to complicate that would be a motion reversal within that 4 sample period. Or maybe I don't fully appreciate the problem. No explanation offered so far seems to explain why the encoders rps output, at a mechanical speed of 20 rps, has +- 3.xxx or more from the 20 its actually doing, flickering in the halmeter output. And this 'noise' does not seem to be all that much effected by the actual speed regardless of the speed as long as its over about 1 rps. Cheers, Gene Thats an awful lot of jitter (15 %). I certainly dont see that with our hardware that timestamps the encoder edges in conjunction with the driver doing a counts/time_between_counts calculation of estimated velocity. The software velocity estimation works the same as the hardware AFAIK, so should have reasonably good jitter performance. So there are a couple of possibilities I see 1. Are you use the encoder components velocity output? 2. Is this wired to the PID comps feedback-deriv input? 3. Do you actually have a good signal from the encoder? (things like HF tortional vibrations can play hell with velocity estimation by causing apparent reversals at low speeds) Note that Scott Hasse in his using the encoder counter for a A-D scheme with a V-F thought there was a problem with the encoder comp but found out jitter in his signal was the problem, and that the encoder comp performed as well as it could given the jitter and resolution of the basethread timestamp http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net/msg37885.htm l I'll look at that tomorrow, after I get my .hal file made available. Can you connect a signal generator to the encoder comp and bifurcate the problem? For that I would have to build a generator in order to send the proper quadrature. Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics Thanks Peter. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! I'll pretend to trust you if you'll pretend to trust me. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
For that I would have to build a generator in order to send the proper quadrature. A single 74LS74 dual D-flip-flop can generate a perfect quadrature waveform from a single channel square wave generator. If you need a schematic for that I can sketch it out in the morning. -- Ralph -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kasey Matejcek wrote: Still can get it stable the rpm just are all over the place The only way I can get it operate close is to set the scale gain to 1 and set s from 1 to 20 rps then it works When I look at the ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity signal it counts by 4 witch I can see why the rpms are all over the place 4*60 =240 8 *60= 480 and so on So is there anything that can be done to get the ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity to not count by 4 Are you using a real quadrature encoder? If so, have you checked the quality of the signal from it? If you drive the spindle at a constant speed, do you get a steady rate from the velocity, and is it the correct rate? The ppmc encoder counter does not actually count by 4, but it does count all quadrature transitions, so it will report 4 counts for every full quadrature cycle. Depending on the rate you read it at, it may appear to be counting by large steps, because the servo thread is only reading the total count 1000 times a second at the typical servo period. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
No home made With optical pickup -Original Message- From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 4:19 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Kasey Matejcek wrote: Still can get it stable the rpm just are all over the place The only way I can get it operate close is to set the scale gain to 1 and set s from 1 to 20 rps then it works When I look at the ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity signal it counts by 4 witch I can see why the rpms are all over the place 4*60 =240 8 *60= 480 and so on So is there anything that can be done to get the ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity to not count by 4 Are you using a real quadrature encoder? If so, have you checked the quality of the signal from it? If you drive the spindle at a constant speed, do you get a steady rate from the velocity, and is it the correct rate? The ppmc encoder counter does not actually count by 4, but it does count all quadrature transitions, so it will report 4 counts for every full quadrature cycle. Depending on the rate you read it at, it may appear to be counting by large steps, because the servo thread is only reading the total count 1000 times a second at the typical servo period. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Still can get it stable the rpm just are all over the place The only way I can get it operate close is to set the scale gain to 1 and set s from 1 to 20 rps then it works When I look at the ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity signal it counts by 4 witch I can see why the rpms are all over the place 4*60 =240 8 *60= 480 and so on So is there anything that can be done to get the ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity to not count by 4 -Original Message- From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 11:30 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Kasey Matejcek wrote: Found that the a,b signal were hook up backward it help a lot Still not smooth but operates close need more tunning now that it works OK, great! That's what I should have suggested a while ago, took me a bit to think this could be the problem. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
I've done as little as .0001 -Original Message- From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 7:15 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On 11 July 2012 13:07, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: But there is no to little control if load is applied to the spindle As soon as any p,I,g are added then it unstable surging up and down How much Igain are you adding? I would expect it to need to be no higher than 0.05 and I would probably start at 0.001. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Gene Heskett wrote: Yikes Jon. I have mine set for only 500hz, higher obviously limits the resolution of the control, at least in my system. I tried 10khz once but found I only had about 4 or 5 steps from creep to wide open due to the loss in base thread counts per output hz. Oh, you can't do this with software. Kasey is using my PWM controller board, which is given a 16-bit count value and then counts out the pulse width with an FPGA at 40 MHz. So, you have 25 ns resolution on the PWM width. Even then, you only get 800 steps at a 50 KHz rate. There typically is NO base thread at all using this system. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kasey Matejcek wrote: Yes the ppmc.0.pwm.00-03.freq 5 After playing some time I've come up with this it responds from 2 rpm to 14 rpm when you set s this give and accual spindle speed from about 35 to 75 rpm But there is no to little control if load is applied to the spindle As soon as any p,I,g are added then it unstable surging up and down Sure, with FF0 only, it is still an open-loop speed control. it is even possible you have the phase of the servo loop backwards. You might try a negative value in P and see if it helps control it under load. If so, then your P, I and D values should all be negative. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wednesday 11 July 2012 13:34:18 Jon Elson did opine: Gene Heskett wrote: Yikes Jon. I have mine set for only 500hz, higher obviously limits the resolution of the control, at least in my system. I tried 10khz once but found I only had about 4 or 5 steps from creep to wide open due to the loss in base thread counts per output hz. Oh, you can't do this with software. Kasey is using my PWM controller board, which is given a 16-bit count value and then counts out the pulse width with an FPGA at 40 MHz. So, you have 25 ns resolution on the PWM width. Even then, you only get 800 steps at a 50 KHz rate. There typically is NO base thread at all using this system. Jon Ahh. Duh. I think you said that before, but it must have flown right on out the other eye without registering. My mistake Jon, sorry for trying to confuse the issue. I'm back in the A/C, I tend to desert the shop when the thermometer hanging on the bandsaw gets to 90. And despite what the weatherman said this morning, its already 7 or 8 degrees above what he intoned as gospel at 06:30. I was one of the smartasses that invited him down to help shovel about 18 of his partly cloudy a while back. Winter of 2008 I think it was. :) Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Sorry. Nice try. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Jon Elson wrote: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:37:03 -0500 From: Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Kasey Matejcek wrote: Yes the ppmc.0.pwm.00-03.freq 5 After playing some time I've come up with this it responds from 2 rpm to 14 rpm when you set s this give and accual spindle speed from about 35 to 75 rpm But there is no to little control if load is applied to the spindle As soon as any p,I,g are added then it unstable surging up and down Sure, with FF0 only, it is still an open-loop speed control. it is even possible you have the phase of the servo loop backwards. You might try a negative value in P and see if it helps control it under load. If so, then your P, I and D values should all be negative. Jon Danger Will Robinson! The PID loop has a bug (feature) and can run-away with negative coefficients Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Wednesday 11 July 2012 14:16:21 Peter C. Wallace did opine: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Jon Elson wrote: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:37:03 -0500 From: Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Kasey Matejcek wrote: Yes the ppmc.0.pwm.00-03.freq 5 After playing some time I've come up with this it responds from 2 rpm to 14 rpm when you set s this give and accual spindle speed from about 35 to 75 rpm But there is no to little control if load is applied to the spindle As soon as any p,I,g are added then it unstable surging up and down Sure, with FF0 only, it is still an open-loop speed control. it is even possible you have the phase of the servo loop backwards. You might try a negative value in P and see if it helps control it under load. If so, then your P, I and D values should all be negative. Jon Danger Will Robinson! The PID loop has a bug (feature) and can run-away with negative coefficients Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics I think I found that last spring when I was carving a different encoder wheel about every day, and had to swap the a/b sigs from my encoder, then it behaved. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! PUNK ROCK!! DISCO DUCK!! BIRTH CONTROL!! -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Found that the a,b signal were hook up backward it help a lot Still not smooth but operates close need more tunning now that it works -Original Message- From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:37 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Kasey Matejcek wrote: Yes the ppmc.0.pwm.00-03.freq 5 After playing some time I've come up with this it responds from 2 rpm to 14 rpm when you set s this give and accual spindle speed from about 35 to 75 rpm But there is no to little control if load is applied to the spindle As soon as any p,I,g are added then it unstable surging up and down Sure, with FF0 only, it is still an open-loop speed control. it is even possible you have the phase of the servo loop backwards. You might try a negative value in P and see if it helps control it under load. If so, then your P, I and D values should all be negative. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Peter C. Wallace wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Jon Elson wrote: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:37:03 -0500 From: Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Kasey Matejcek wrote: Yes the ppmc.0.pwm.00-03.freq 5 After playing some time I've come up with this it responds from 2 rpm to 14 rpm when you set s this give and accual spindle speed from about 35 to 75 rpm But there is no to little control if load is applied to the spindle As soon as any p,I,g are added then it unstable surging up and down Sure, with FF0 only, it is still an open-loop speed control. it is even possible you have the phase of the servo loop backwards. You might try a negative value in P and see if it helps control it under load. If so, then your P, I and D values should all be negative. Jon Danger Will Robinson! The PID loop has a bug (feature) and can run-away with negative coefficients OK, in that case he needs to reverse the motor terminals or set the OUTPUT_SCALE to -1.0 and see if the control works better. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kasey Matejcek wrote: Found that the a,b signal were hook up backward it help a lot Still not smooth but operates close need more tunning now that it works OK, great! That's what I should have suggested a while ago, took me a bit to think this could be the problem. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 10 July 2012 03:35, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: But know I'm I have removed the a axis config setting and I'm trying to get it looped to the spindle controls and I can't seem to make that work Are you wanting closed-lop spindle speed control, or will open-loop work? Open-loop should just be a case of netting motion.spindle-speed-out to ppmc.0.pwm.03 and setting the PWM scale appropriately. If you want closed-loop spindle speed control, then you should be able to modify: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control (Note the comment about FF0 replacing the sum2) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Looking for closed loop I've tried the example close loop and nothing -Original Message- From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:25 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On 10 July 2012 03:35, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: But know I'm I have removed the a axis config setting and I'm trying to get it looped to the spindle controls and I can't seem to make that work Are you wanting closed-lop spindle speed control, or will open-loop work? Open-loop should just be a case of netting motion.spindle-speed-out to ppmc.0.pwm.03 and setting the PWM scale appropriately. If you want closed-loop spindle speed control, then you should be able to modify: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control (Note the comment about FF0 replacing the sum2) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 10 July 2012 12:40, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: Looking for closed loop I've tried the example close loop and nothing What sort of nothing? If you look in machine-show hal config can you see the spindle speed command appearing on motion.spindle-speed-out and into the PID, and out of the PID to the pwmgen? -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
I should not say nothing but the spindle turns real aradic and there is no rpm control don't matter were I set the p,I,g -Original Message- From: Kasey Matejcek [mailto:someo...@lkm.bz] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 6:40 AM To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp Looking for closed loop I've tried the example close loop and nothing -Original Message- From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:25 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On 10 July 2012 03:35, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: But know I'm I have removed the a axis config setting and I'm trying to get it looped to the spindle controls and I can't seem to make that work Are you wanting closed-lop spindle speed control, or will open-loop work? Open-loop should just be a case of netting motion.spindle-speed-out to ppmc.0.pwm.03 and setting the PWM scale appropriately. If you want closed-loop spindle speed control, then you should be able to modify: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control (Note the comment about FF0 replacing the sum2) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 10 July 2012 13:41, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: I should not say nothing but the spindle turns real aradic and there is no rpm control don't matter were I set the p,I,g First set Pgain, Igain and Dgain to zero and adjust FF0 until you get the speed correct at one rpm value. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kasey Matejcek wrote: I'm using a johns univ pico controller and his dc servo amps I'm trying to use one of his amps to drive the dc servo motor on my lathe For open-loop speed control, see http://pico-systems.com/codes/minimill/ This is my minimill configuration, so it has some stuff that eventually needs to come out, namely the Y axis. But, it has axis 3 PWM output driving my PWM servo amp to the spindle motor, and axis 3 encoder input sensing the spindle for a speed display and for threading. It is capable of reversing the spindle for rigid tapping. spindle.hal and spindle.xml are entirely for on-screen display through a pyvcp panel. in univpwm_motion.hal, there is : setp ppmc.0.encoder.03.scale 6912 This sets the encoder to read 1.000 for one full revolution, so if you have a 100 cycle/rev encoder that gives 400 counts/rev, put 400 there. and then all of this for the spindle encoder: newsig spindle-sync bit newsig spindle-index-en bit linksp spindle-index-en = ppmc.0.encoder.03.index-enable # hook up motion controller's sync output linkps motion.spindle-index-enable = spindle-index-en # report rev count to motion controller newsig spindle-pos float linkps ppmc.0.encoder.03.position = spindle-pos linksp spindle-pos = motion.spindle-revs Here's what connects the servo drive, a lot of this is to filter the speed changes to limit acceleration to what is possible. You will have to find the right values for your machine. The mult2.1.in1 sets the speed calibration, you will need a different number for each gear or belt setting. lowpass.0.gain sets the filtering constant, I think smaller numbers make speed changes more gradual. # set up 4th PWM generator as a spindle speed control newsig spindle-speed float newsig spindle-pwm-cmd float newsig spindle-pwm-filt float linkps motion.spindle-speed-out = spindle-speed linksp spindle-speed = mult2.1.in0 setp mult2.1.in1 0.0009018 linkps mult2.1.out = spindle-pwm-cmd linksp spindle-pwm-cmd = lowpass.0.in linkps lowpass.0.out = spindle-pwm-filt linksp spindle-pwm-filt = ppmc.0.pwm.03.value setp lowpass.0.gain 0.005 And, this part enables the PWM output when the spindle is set for either forward or reverse operation. newsig spindle-enable bit # SpindleFwd and SpindleRev come from univpwm_io.hal linksp SpindleFwd = or2.0.in0 linksp SpindleRev = or2.0.in1 linkps or2.0.out = spindle-enable linksp spindle-enable ppmc.0.pwm.03.enable # spindle speed display This scales the display for readout in RPM, the spindle scale factor above at ppmc.0.encoder.03.scale reads our in RPS, this just converts RPS to RPM. net spinrawppmc.0.encoder.03.delta conv-s32-float.0.in net spinfloat conv-s32-float.0.out mult2.0.in0 setp mult2.0.in1 8.680 newsig SpindleRPM float linkps mult2.0.out = SpindleRPM -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On Tue, 2012-07-10 at 11:17 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: Kasey Matejcek wrote: I'm using a johns univ pico controller and his dc servo amps I'm trying to use one of his amps to drive the dc servo motor on my lathe For open-loop speed control, see http://pico-systems.com/codes/minimill/ This is my minimill configuration, so it has some stuff that eventually needs to come out, namely the Y axis. But, it has axis 3 PWM output driving my PWM servo amp to the spindle motor, and axis 3 encoder input sensing the spindle for a speed display and for threading. It is capable of reversing the spindle for rigid tapping. spindle.hal and spindle.xml are entirely for on-screen display through a pyvcp panel. Just in case, one of my Pico PWM amps needed to be modified to run a motor continuously. The large motor output filter inductors would overheat fairly quickly. This isn't a problem for axis motors that usually are not on for very long. Jon suggested removing the motor output capacitors. I'm not sure what happens with EMI with these capacitors removed, but it does allow the amp to work with a spindle application. Newer amps may not have this problem. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
This is my hal file for the spindle Don't matter what I do the spindle never spins smooth starts and stops as soon as any p,i,g are added even at .0001 seem to be to much It will spin at it max rpm if I set s to 1 or more put and thing less I surges up and down bad Hoping someone can see something I can't The disk on the lathe spindle has a 125 hole disk with 1 hole index A b pickup I've tried the encoder.scale at 125 and at 500 nether change much loadrt scale count=1 addf scale.0 servo-thread setp scale.0.gain 60 setp ppmc.0.pwm.03.bootstrap TRUE setp ppmc.0.pwm.03.max-dc 0.95 setp ppmc.0.encoder.03.scale 125 setp pid.3.maxoutput 1000 setp pid.3.Pgain 0 setp pid.3.Igain 0 setp pid.3.Dgain 0 setp pid.3.bias 0 setp pid.3.FF0 26 net spindle_enable motion.spindle-on ppmc.0.pwm.03.enable pid.3.enable net spindle_rev_count ppmc.0.encoder.03.position motion.spindle-revs net spindle_index_enable ppmc.0.encoder.03.index-enable motion.spindle-index-enable net encoder_raw_velocity ppmc.0.encoder.03.velocity scale.0.in net pid_feedback pid.3.feedback motion.spindle-speed-in scale.0.out net pid_command pid.3.command motion.spindle-speed-out net pid_output pid.3.output ppmc.0.pwm.03.value -Original Message- From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:02 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On 10 July 2012 13:41, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: I should not say nothing but the spindle turns real aradic and there is no rpm control don't matter were I set the p,I,g First set Pgain, Igain and Dgain to zero and adjust FF0 until you get the speed correct at one rpm value. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
On 10 July 2012 23:04, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: setp pid.3.maxoutput 1000 What is the pwm scale? If that is 0-1 and your PID is 0-1000 then you will have problems. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kirk Wallace wrote: Just in case, one of my Pico PWM amps needed to be modified to run a motor continuously. The large motor output filter inductors would overheat fairly quickly. This isn't a problem for axis motors that usually are not on for very long. Jon suggested removing the motor output capacitors. I'm not sure what happens with EMI with these capacitors removed, but it does allow the amp to work with a spindle application. Newer amps may not have this problem. A long time ago I reduced the value of these capacitors (C14 and C15, right next to the motor power connector) to get rid of this heating problem. I might end up reducing the value again by a small step. The worst case is where the PWM duty cycle is 50%, then the inductor sees a triangle wave current at 50 KHz. This would be the case where the motor is running at about 50% of the DC supply voltage. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
It set to 1000 setp ppmc.0.pwm.03.scale 1000 when you watch ppmc.0.pwm.03.value it changes from 1000 to -1000 and back and forth it goes when I set s 50 rpm then after some time ppmc.0.pwm.03.value goes to like 50 after some time but it still surges up and down and so does the number if left long enough ppmc.0.pwm.03.value goes to 0 or some really small number when the rpm is set lower than 100rpm but really never get stable above 100 rpm it just keeps surging up and down -Original Message- From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:15 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp On 10 July 2012 23:04, Kasey Matejcek someo...@lkm.bz wrote: setp pid.3.maxoutput 1000 What is the pwm scale? If that is 0-1 and your PID is 0-1000 then you will have problems. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Spindle hooked to dc servo amp
Kasey Matejcek wrote: It set to 1000 setp ppmc.0.pwm.03.scale 1000 when you watch ppmc.0.pwm.03.value it changes from 1000 to -1000 and back and forth it goes when I set s 50 rpm then after some time ppmc.0.pwm.03.value goes to like 50 after some time but it still surges up and down and so does the number if left long enough ppmc.0.pwm.03.value goes to 0 or some really small number when the rpm is set lower than 100rpm but really never get stable above 100 rpm it just keeps surging up and down OK, this is an unstable servo system. You need to adjust the PID values to damp out these surges. I have no experience with this particular application, closed-loop spindle speed. But, usually, lowering P and adding just a little D helps. In this case, you are using all FF0, so I don't have much feel for how that works. But, you could try adding a little D there, like start with 0.1 and multiply by 2 until it either gets good or starts getting worse. I suppose you could reduce FF2 and see if that helps, but that is working like a scale factor. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
