Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[andy pugh]

On 2 June 2012 15:21, cogoman  wrote:
>   While I can see the need (sometimes) for a durable metal encoder
> disc, and I have cut some out of .016" copper (was on hand, and never
> got tested), I wonder how useful, or how durable laser printed
> transparency film would be for many applications.

It works perfectly, with transmissive encoders.

I had two problems: reflective sensors and a mandatory 75lpi pitch.
I tried laser-printing but I couldn't find a laser with a fine enough
dot-pitch to not alias at 75lpi, and the sensor was equally blind to
white and black. It needs shiny.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 02, 2012 12:45:30 PM cogoman did opine:

>While I can see the need (sometimes) for a durable metal encoder
> disc, and I have cut some out of .016" copper (was on hand, and never
> got tested), I wonder how useful, or how durable laser printed
> transparency film would be for many applications.  Two of them glued
> back to back with the printing on the inside might be reasonably
> durable.  all but the fingers could be clamped between an aluminum
> mounting piece giving some physical stability.  The resolvers on our
> Shizuoka are located in sealed coffee can shaped bins, so reasonably
> protected from swarf.  One could take a .JPG to Staples and have them
> print out a few with whatever resolution you choose (make THEM keep the
> stock of laser transparency film).
> 
>The original encoder code was borrowed by a guy doing robotic
> encoders for some surplus Pittman gearmotors for robotics, though he
> used reflective sensors with less than 30 segments.  I borrowed the code
> from him and made changes to make it easier to center a large encoder
> wheel. I have printed out samples (though I haven't used any yet) and
> get reasonable looking prints with 512 segments or more.  I haven't
> added the index wedge yet, but I will insert the code that I do have
> here.

This, since the index pulse needs to be pretty narrow, and can be polarity 
adjusted in hal, might best be done as a single black strip whose width 
could possibly be adjusted such that both edges were in the same logic 
condition.
 
 
> %! Postscript utility for printing  an encoder wheel
> %
> /inch {72 mul} def  % #points/inch (don't change me)
> /size 3.9 inch def% radius of encoder wheel
> /segments 1024 def% number of segments (black and white)
> /angle 360 segments div def
> /wedge
>   { /radius exch def
>/angle_s exch def
>/angle_e exch def
>newpath 0 0 moveto
>0 0 radius angle_s angle_e arc
>closepath
>   } def

How do I adjust the black width?  With these opto devices, a .010 clear 
strip between 1/8" wide black wedges is likely all I'd need.  The aperture 
of the opto's will effectively widen it.
 
> % ADD IN THE ENCODER WHEEL AT THE SPECIFIED DIAMETER
> gsave
>  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
>   4.0 inch 4.0 inch translate
>   0 1 segments {
>360 segments div rotate
>angle 0 size wedge
>2 mod 0 eq {1} {0} ifelse
>setgray fill
>   } for
> grestore

This would, I believe, overpower the computers ability to track at maximum 
spindle speed, in my case 2500 revs, although I can count with the 
available fingers & toes the number of times I've put the lever in high 
gear.  In low gear its 1100.  But it certainly looks easy enough to fix if 
I can dust off my postscript knowledge from 15 years ago when I was running 
an amiga.
 
>  %THIS ROUTINE FILLS THE CENTER WITH WHITE, AND SOMEHOW PUTS A SOLID
> CIRCLE
>  %  INSIDE THE GROUP OF WEDGES
>  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> 4.0 inch 4.0 inch 3.0 inch 0 360 arc
> gsave
>stroke
> grestore
> 9 setgray fill
> 
>  %THIS ROUTINE PUTS A TINY DOT IN THE CENTER TO AID IN MOUNTING THE
> DISC %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> 4.0 inch 4.0 inch .01 inch 0 360 arc
> gsave
>stroke
> grestore
> 0 setgray fill
> 
> showpage

I'll play with this and see what I can do.  The area is well protected from 
swarf, but not from small lubricant droplets thrown off the Z drives gears.  
That however could be addressed by a barrier in the end cover when its in 
place.
 
>I open the .eps file in Gimp.  Most Linuxes come with ghostscript
> installed, and that's what Gimp uses to write it out to a .JPG.  To get
> good resolution, you need to print out a lot of dots, and that requires
> a lot of RAM, or a long time swapping to/from available RAM.  I think I
> remember using 8000 by 8000 for the final file size.  If Staples has a
> printer that handles postscript directly, you should be able to size and
> position the disc in the .eps code, and print it directly from .eps with
> much better resolution.  With some care you should be able to get
> multiple encoders per sheet, depending on how big you want them.
> 
>Hopefully this will be useful for someone.  It sure is quicker than
> cutting that ultra thin aluminum, and the segments /should/ be equal in
> size (for 50% duty cycle).

This doesn't account for the aperture of the opto's, which it would appear 
are at least 50 thou.
 
>For test purposes, if you have clear spray paint on hand (Krylon
> works well here) printing on paper will give you the black.  Several
> very light coats of Krylon on the print side will stabilize the print,
> then a heavier coat from the back will soak into the paper and make it
> more transparent.  All the paint should make the disc stiffer, and seal
> it against some moisture.  You could mount the disc in between
> cardboards with a hole cut in

Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[ceenbot]

I am making a batch of 1" diameter PC board wheels for use with the 75LPI
Avago AEDR-8300-1K1 quadrature encoder module.  The module is a reflective
style and the PC boards are gold plated for reflective purposes.  Plating
with gold makes for a very flat surface as opposed to HASL hot air leveled
solder which leaves bumps of solder and may not reflect straight back to
the sensor.


It's nice to hear that laser printed wheels cannot be "seen" with this type
of sensor.  I'm going under the assumption that the fiberglass between the
gold traces is not reflective enough to mess with the sensor.   Gerber
files are available for 75LPI and 36LPI parts if anyone wants a copy.  I
created the geometry once then copied it radially times 100 or 50
positions.  Goes prett fast.  A pic of the board is at: [LINK:
http://flic.kr/p/c9Y7Jo] http://flic.kr/p/c9Y7Jo


The same principle will work for bigger wheels.  The 75LPI wheel comes out
to 6.67mil wide traces and spaces.


I'm working with DC motors in the 32mm diameter range.  The DC motor has a
72MHz ARM Cortex-M3 on the back of it, motor driver and encoder.  Overkill?
 Maybe, but in the end we'll have a PID controlled motor, USB port,
programmable current limit for torque control and also scalable in the
future for 3-phase brushless DC.


Dennis


  > ---Original Message---
  > From: andy pugh
  > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
  > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs
  > Sent: Jun 02 '12 10:15
  >
  > On 2 June 2012 15:21, cogoman wrote:
  > >   While I can see the need (sometimes) for a durable metal encoder
  > > disc, and I have cut some out of .016" copper (was on hand, and never
  > > got tested), I wonder how useful, or how durable laser printed
  > > transparency film would be for many applications.
  >
  > It works perfectly, with transmissive encoders.
  >
  > I had two problems: reflective sensors and a mandatory 75lpi pitch.
  > I tried laser-printing but I couldn't find a laser with a fine enough
  > dot-pitch to not alias at 75lpi, and the sensor was equally blind to
  > white and black. It needs shiny.
  >
  > --
  > atp
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Joseph Chiu]

Dennis, if you have a "bare" PCB without solder mask, you might get a
bit more contrast by staining the substrate with dye.

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 10:28 AM,   wrote:
> I am making a batch of 1" diameter PC board wheels for use with the 75LPI
> Avago AEDR-8300-1K1 quadrature encoder module.  The module is a reflective
> style and the PC boards are gold plated for reflective purposes.  Plating
> with gold makes for a very flat surface as opposed to HASL hot air leveled
> solder which leaves bumps of solder and may not reflect straight back to
> the sensor.
>
>
> It's nice to hear that laser printed wheels cannot be "seen" with this type
> of sensor.  I'm going under the assumption that the fiberglass between the
> gold traces is not reflective enough to mess with the sensor.   Gerber
> files are available for 75LPI and 36LPI parts if anyone wants a copy.  I
> created the geometry once then copied it radially times 100 or 50
> positions.  Goes prett fast.  A pic of the board is at: [LINK:
> http://flic.kr/p/c9Y7Jo] http://flic.kr/p/c9Y7Jo
>
>
> The same principle will work for bigger wheels.  The 75LPI wheel comes out
> to 6.67mil wide traces and spaces.
>
>
> I'm working with DC motors in the 32mm diameter range.  The DC motor has a
> 72MHz ARM Cortex-M3 on the back of it, motor driver and encoder.  Overkill?
>  Maybe, but in the end we'll have a PID controlled motor, USB port,
> programmable current limit for torque control and also scalable in the
> future for 3-phase brushless DC.
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
>  > ---Original Message---
>  > From: andy pugh
>  > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>  > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs
>  > Sent: Jun 02 '12 10:15
>  >
>  > On 2 June 2012 15:21, cogoman wrote:
>  > >   While I can see the need (sometimes) for a durable metal encoder
>  > > disc, and I have cut some out of .016" copper (was on hand, and never
>  > > got tested), I wonder how useful, or how durable laser printed
>  > > transparency film would be for many applications.
>  >
>  > It works perfectly, with transmissive encoders.
>  >
>  > I had two problems: reflective sensors and a mandatory 75lpi pitch.
>  > I tried laser-printing but I couldn't find a laser with a fine enough
>  > dot-pitch to not alias at 75lpi, and the sensor was equally blind to
>  > white and black. It needs shiny.
>  >
>  > --
>  > atp
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, Joseph Chiu wrote:

> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:56:26 -0700
> From: Joseph Chiu 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: ceen...@in-front.com,
> "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs
> 
> Dennis, if you have a "bare" PCB without solder mask, you might get a
> bit more contrast by staining the substrate with dye.
>

Or black PCB material (not sure how black this is to IR however)


Peter Wallace


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 02, 2012 03:49:49 PM cogoman did opine:

>While I can see the need (sometimes) for a durable metal encoder
> disc, and I have cut some out of .016" copper (was on hand, and never
> got tested), I wonder how useful, or how durable laser printed
> transparency film would be for many applications.  Two of them glued
> back to back with the printing on the inside might be reasonably
> durable.  all but the fingers could be clamped between an aluminum
> mounting piece giving some physical stability.  The resolvers on our
> Shizuoka are located in sealed coffee can shaped bins, so reasonably
> protected from swarf.  One could take a .JPG to Staples and have them
> print out a few with whatever resolution you choose (make THEM keep the
> stock of laser transparency film).
> 
>The original encoder code was borrowed by a guy doing robotic
> encoders for some surplus Pittman gearmotors for robotics, though he
> used reflective sensors with less than 30 segments.  I borrowed the code
> from him and made changes to make it easier to center a large encoder
> wheel. I have printed out samples (though I haven't used any yet) and
> get reasonable looking prints with 512 segments or more.  I haven't
> added the index wedge yet, but I will insert the code that I do have
> here.
> 
> 
> %! Postscript utility for printing  an encoder wheel
> %
> /inch {72 mul} def  % #points/inch (don't change me)
> /size 3.9 inch def% radius of encoder wheel
> /segments 1024 def% number of segments (black and white)
> /angle 360 segments div def
> /wedge
>   { /radius exch def
>/angle_s exch def
>/angle_e exch def
>newpath 0 0 moveto
>0 0 radius angle_s angle_e arc
>closepath
>   } def
> 
> % ADD IN THE ENCODER WHEEL AT THE SPECIFIED DIAMETER
> gsave
>  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
>   4.0 inch 4.0 inch translate
>   0 1 segments {
>360 segments div rotate
>angle 0 size wedge
>2 mod 0 eq {1} {0} ifelse
>setgray fill
>   } for
> grestore
> 
>  %THIS ROUTINE FILLS THE CENTER WITH WHITE, AND SOMEHOW PUTS A SOLID
> CIRCLE
>  %  INSIDE THE GROUP OF WEDGES
>  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> 4.0 inch 4.0 inch 3.0 inch 0 360 arc
> gsave
>stroke
> grestore
> 9 setgray fill
> 
>  %THIS ROUTINE PUTS A TINY DOT IN THE CENTER TO AID IN MOUNTING THE
> DISC %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> 4.0 inch 4.0 inch .01 inch 0 360 arc
> gsave
>stroke
> grestore
> 0 setgray fill
> 
> showpage
> 
I scaled this down to the size I needed, and added enough to do it 2 up 
which didn't come close to occupying the full 8.5x11 page. I was about to 
add the index track too when I gave up due to poor resolution from the eps 
fixed pixel size.

But when imported into gimp at 72 dpi, the resolution turns it into pretty 
fuzzy stuff, with or without the anti-aliasing turned on.

So I thought I'd see what it might be able to do in inkscape, but its 
crashing as it opens its screen on this box.

Back to cutting brass I believe, now that I have small enough bits.

Thanks cogoman.  This would be useful if I had room for a 6" OD wheel, but 
my limit in the space I have is about 2.7" in diameter.

>I open the .eps file in Gimp.  Most Linuxes come with ghostscript
> installed, and that's what Gimp uses to write it out to a .JPG.  To get
> good resolution, you need to print out a lot of dots, and that requires
> a lot of RAM, or a long time swapping to/from available RAM.  I think I
> remember using 8000 by 8000 for the final file size.  If Staples has a
> printer that handles postscript directly, you should be able to size and
> position the disc in the .eps code, and print it directly from .eps with
> much better resolution.  With some care you should be able to get
> multiple encoders per sheet, depending on how big you want them.
> 
>Hopefully this will be useful for someone.  It sure is quicker than
> cutting that ultra thin aluminum, and the segments /should/ be equal in
> size (for 50% duty cycle).
> 
>For test purposes, if you have clear spray paint on hand (Krylon
> works well here) printing on paper will give you the black.  Several
> very light coats of Krylon on the print side will stabilize the print,
> then a heavier coat from the back will soak into the paper and make it
> more transparent.  All the paint should make the disc stiffer, and seal
> it against some moisture.  You could mount the disc in between
> cardboards with a hole cut in the middle to keep it flat while the paint
> dries.
> 
>Does anyone think that this needs to go in the knowledgebase?  I
> searched for encoder and didn't find any references that appeared to
> have this information.
> 
> -- Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed a

Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[andy pugh]

On 2 June 2012 18:28,   wrote:

> Avago AEDR-8300-1K1 quadrature encoder module.

That is the sensor I am using.

> It's nice to hear that laser printed wheels cannot be "seen" with this type
> of sensor.  I'm going under the assumption that the fiberglass between the
> gold traces is not reflective enough to mess with the sensor.

If it is glossiness that matters, not colour. I would experiment with
a sensor and an edge connector.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[cogoman]

   The eps file is vector graphics, it can generate as fine detail as 
you need.

   When I used GIMP to output to .JPG I got very good resolution, but I 
had to ask for it.
Try this:

 1. Right click on the .eps file.
 2. Click on "Open with".
 3. Click on GIMP.
 4. The dialog "Import from PostScript" will default to Resolution: 100
(I believe this is DPI), change it to 600 (or if you have enough
RAM, 1200
 5. Set the "Width:" to your resolution times 8.5 (assuming 8.5 by 11 paper)
 6. Set the "Height:" to your resolution times 11.  I did 600, 8000,
8000 and it took about 2 minutes to import.
 7. Set it to B/W, or, if you want anti aliasing, set it to Gray.
 8. Once imported, you can zoom in and see very good detail.
 9. Save it as .jpg or as .png, or if you can get GIMP to behave while
printing, print it directly


   One hint, try starting at 150 DPI, this should go quickly and you can 
zoom in to see the detail (or lack thereof). You probably won't want to 
save this one.
   Then try importing at 300 DPI, and look at the detail, remembering 
that the time will probably increase with the square of the resolution.  
It quickly becomes long, but you'll probably want a resolution that will 
take minutes to import, and 1/2 minutes for each step in zooming in.


On 06/02/2012 03:58 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> I scaled this down to the size I needed, and added enough to do it 2 up
> which didn't come close to occupying the full 8.5x11 page. I was about to
> add the index track too when I gave up due to poor resolution from the eps
> fixed pixel size.
>
> But when imported into gimp at 72 dpi, the resolution turns it into pretty
> fuzzy stuff, with or without the anti-aliasing turned on.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[cogoman]

On 06/02/2012 04:27 PM, cogoman wrote:
> The eps file is vector graphics, it can generate as fine detail as
> you need.
One thing I forgot to mention, with this technique, your printer's 
resolution is the limiting factor, and with modern printers, it's 
usually not very limiting at their highest quality setting.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[cogoman]

I reworked the postscript program so you can specify encoder wheel size, 
and index pulse width for an encoder, then you can call the subroutine 
(done twice at the bottom) at different places on the paper.
   Hopefully the instructions in another message for using GIMP can get 
you the resolution you need.

On 06/02/2012 03:58 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> Thanks cogoman.  This would be useful if I had room for a 6" OD wheel, but
> my limit in the space I have is about 2.7" in diameter.
%! Postscript utility for printing multiple encoder wheels

/inch {72 mul} def  % #points/inch (don't change me)
/sizeo 2 inch def   % outside radius of encoder wheel
/sizei 1.8 inch def % inside radius of encoder wedges
/segments 256 def   % number of segments (black and white)
/ipwidth 5.5 def% width of index pulse bar
/moveout 4 def% how far from left side to put encoder wheel
/moveup 4 def% how far from the bottom to put the encoder wheel
/angle 360 segments div def

/wedge
  { /radius exch def
   /angle_s exch def
   /angle_e exch def
   newpath 0 0 moveto
   0 0 radius angle_s angle_e arc
   closepath
  } def

/encoder
{
 % ADD IN THE ENCODER WHEEL AT THE SPECIFIED DIAMETER
 gsave
  0 1 segments {
   360 segments div rotate
   angle 0 sizeo wedge
   2 mod 0 eq {1} {0} ifelse
   setgray fill
  } for
 grestore

 %THIS ROUTINE FILLS THE CENTER WITH WHITE, AND SOMEHOW PUTS A 
SOLID CIRCLE
 %  INSIDE THE GROUP OF WEDGES
 %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER

 0 0 sizei 0 360 arc
 gsave
   0 setgray stroke
 grestore
   9 setgray fill

   ipwidth 0 sizei wedge
   0 setgray fill



 %THIS ROUTINE PUTS A TINY DOT IN THE CENTER TO AID IN MOUNTING 
THE DISC
 %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
 0.0 inch 0.0 inch .01 inch 0 360 arc
 gsave
   stroke
 grestore
 0 setgray fill

} def

gsave
 2.5 inch 2.5 inch translate
 encoder
grestore
 2.5 inch 7.5 inch translate
 encoder
showpage


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 02, 2012 08:41:49 PM cogoman did opine:

>The eps file is vector graphics, it can generate as fine detail as
> you need.
> 
>When I used GIMP to output to .JPG I got very good resolution, but I
> had to ask for it.
> Try this:
> 
>  1. Right click on the .eps file.
>  2. Click on "Open with".
>  3. Click on GIMP.
>  4. The dialog "Import from PostScript" will default to Resolution: 100
> (I believe this is DPI), change it to 600 (or if you have enough
> RAM, 1200
>  5. Set the "Width:" to your resolution times 8.5 (assuming 8.5 by 11
> paper) 6. Set the "Height:" to your resolution times 11.  I did 600,
> 8000, 8000 and it took about 2 minutes to import.
>  7. Set it to B/W, or, if you want anti aliasing, set it to Gray.
>  8. Once imported, you can zoom in and see very good detail.
>  9. Save it as .jpg or as .png, or if you can get GIMP to behave while
> printing, print it directly
> 
> 
>One hint, try starting at 150 DPI, this should go quickly and you can
> zoom in to see the detail (or lack thereof). You probably won't want to
> save this one.
>Then try importing at 300 DPI, and look at the detail, remembering
> that the time will probably increase with the square of the resolution.
> It quickly becomes long, but you'll probably want a resolution that will
> take minutes to import, and 1/2 minutes for each step in zooming in.
> 
I was not aware of any of those tricks, thanks.  But the brass one is now 
about 75% done, so I can probably test it yet tonight.  I did find what I 
hope was the last carving bug about half an hour back, I'm watching the 
backplot, trying to figure out why I seem to have a small nick in one edge 
of the slot, and noticed that the descent point was no longer being wrapped 
up by the subsequent 4 moves to carve the slot.  It turns out that 
apparently there is a negative limit to the math, and when the angle, which 
started at 360 & counts down, wasn't being reset at the top of the next 
loop start, and somewhere around -7200 degrees the math was failing.  Fixed 
that, restarted it at the interrupted depth and it has already cleaned up 
the edge of the slot in about 2 passes.  About 9 to go at .00099 DOC.

> On 06/02/2012 03:58 PM, gene heskett wrote:

> > I scaled this down to the size I needed, and added enough to do it 2
> > up which didn't come close to occupying the full 8.5x11 page. I was
> > about to add the index track too when I gave up due to poor
> > resolution from the eps fixed pixel size.
> > 
> > But when imported into gimp at 72 dpi, the resolution turns it into
> > pretty fuzzy stuff, with or without the anti-aliasing turned on.

The other problem is that on the paper it was about 1/3rd the size it was 
on screen.

But I have high hopes I can make this one work, its sure looking better 
than anything I've carved before, I have about a dozen disks laying around 
that just weren't done well enough now.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Jon Elson]

cogoman wrote:
> I reworked the postscript program so you can specify encoder wheel size, 
>   
Very cool, thanks!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, June 03, 2012 10:37:11 AM cogoman did opine:

> I reworked the postscript program so you can specify encoder wheel size,
> and index pulse width for an encoder, then you can call the subroutine
> (done twice at the bottom) at different places on the paper.
>Hopefully the instructions in another message for using GIMP can get
> you the resolution you need.
> 
> On 06/02/2012 03:58 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > Thanks cogoman.  This would be useful if I had room for a 6" OD wheel,
> > but my limit in the space I have is about 2.7" in diameter.
> 
> %! Postscript utility for printing multiple encoder wheels
> 
> /inch {72 mul} def  % #points/inch (don't change me)
> /sizeo 2 inch def   % outside radius of encoder wheel
> /sizei 1.8 inch def % inside radius of encoder wedges
> /segments 256 def   % number of segments (black and white)
> /ipwidth 5.5 def% width of index pulse bar
> /moveout 4 def% how far from left side to put encoder wheel
> /moveup 4 def% how far from the bottom to put the encoder
> wheel /angle 360 segments div def
> 
> /wedge
>   { /radius exch def
>/angle_s exch def
>/angle_e exch def
>newpath 0 0 moveto
>0 0 radius angle_s angle_e arc
>closepath
>   } def
> 
> /encoder
> {
>  % ADD IN THE ENCODER WHEEL AT THE SPECIFIED DIAMETER
>  gsave
>   0 1 segments {
>360 segments div rotate
>angle 0 sizeo wedge
>2 mod 0 eq {1} {0} ifelse
>setgray fill
>   } for
>  grestore
> 
>  %THIS ROUTINE FILLS THE CENTER WITH WHITE, AND SOMEHOW PUTS A
> SOLID CIRCLE
>  %  INSIDE THE GROUP OF WEDGES
>  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> 
>  0 0 sizei 0 360 arc
>  gsave
>0 setgray stroke
>  grestore
>9 setgray fill
> 
>ipwidth 0 sizei wedge
>0 setgray fill
> 
> 
> 
>  %THIS ROUTINE PUTS A TINY DOT IN THE CENTER TO AID IN MOUNTING
> THE DISC
>  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
>  0.0 inch 0.0 inch .01 inch 0 360 arc
>  gsave
>stroke
>  grestore
>  0 setgray fill
> 
> } def
> 
> gsave
>  2.5 inch 2.5 inch translate
>  encoder
> grestore
>  2.5 inch 7.5 inch translate
>  encoder
> showpage
> 
With your hints on the import settings, I may have something usable if I 
can get it cut out accurately enough.  As for slot widths, this 50% duty 
cycle won't cut it at all, but if occurs to me that I can probably adjust 
not only the width of the index, but the angle too such that two of them 
could be mounted with the image sides to each other, and adjust the timing 
relative to each other to get the slot width needed.  I haven't re-added 
the center dot since I re-sized that snippet to be the spindle hole yet.  
That dot could be the registration dot for cutting them out of the sheet 
with an etch bit in the mill.

Would it be possible to adjust the 'duty cycle' of these by multiplying the 
slots but sequencing the black and white such that 3 out of a sequence of 4 
are black? or 4 out of 5, 5 out of 6 etc etc?

My brass one when it was done about 23:00 last night, I put on and was able 
to make it work at least as well with the encoder module in mode 0 as I was 
able to make the 39 cycle wheel work in mode 1.  But its duty cycle was 
about 57 on to 43 off, with an actual slot width setting of .31 for the 
duty cycle.  These opto units are great, 10 ns response times and rail to 
rail outputs, but their aperture, probably being expanded by the polished 
interior surfaces of these slots, is eating my lunch.

I'd try blackening the brass, but blackening is not very effective at the 
low incidence angles involved.  Before that, I think I'd cut into a trace 
on the board and dim the leds as I fed them with a current that was mid-
range of the spec sheet, s/b around 12.5 ma if my math is correct.  I think 
at the 25 ma max, these things could see right through a sheet of .03125 
brass!

I figured this encoder was gonna be a piece of cake when I started it, but 
I think Murphy must have eaten the cake too, he sure drinks enough of my 
beer. :)

As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here previously, 
most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good skin bruise rather 
than a nice flat black.  I believe that was because of my inability to get 
all the cutting oil washed back out of the brass with clean acetone or 
boiling in dish soap.  I can't go enough narrower to fix it with a 1/32" 
mill as I can't trim the slot width more than another thou, so today I will 
try dimming the leds.  There has to be a fix someplace, I just have to find 
it...

Someone posted a link to a PID tuning procedure that has by now expired 
from this mailbox.  Could I ask whomever that was to please post it again? 

What I had last night, piddling around in the hal config screen but didn't 
save, seeme

Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[dave]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:39:30 -0400
gene heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday, June 03, 2012 10:37:11 AM cogoman did opine:
> 
> > I reworked the postscript program so you can specify encoder wheel
> > size, and index pulse width for an encoder, then you can call the
> > subroutine (done twice at the bottom) at different places on the
> > paper. Hopefully the instructions in another message for using GIMP
> > can get you the resolution you need.
> > 
> > On 06/02/2012 03:58 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > > Thanks cogoman.  This would be useful if I had room for a 6" OD
> > > wheel, but my limit in the space I have is about 2.7" in diameter.
> > 
> > %! Postscript utility for printing multiple encoder wheels
> > 
> > /inch {72 mul} def  % #points/inch (don't change me)
> > /sizeo 2 inch def   % outside radius of encoder wheel
> > /sizei 1.8 inch def % inside radius of encoder wedges
> > /segments 256 def   % number of segments (black and
> > white) /ipwidth 5.5 def% width of index pulse bar
> > /moveout 4 def% how far from left side to put encoder
> > wheel /moveup 4 def% how far from the bottom to put the
> > encoder wheel /angle 360 segments div def
> > 
> > /wedge
> >   { /radius exch def
> >/angle_s exch def
> >/angle_e exch def
> >newpath 0 0 moveto
> >0 0 radius angle_s angle_e arc
> >closepath
> >   } def
> > 
> > /encoder
> > {
> >  % ADD IN THE ENCODER WHEEL AT THE SPECIFIED DIAMETER
> >  gsave
> >   0 1 segments {
> >360 segments div rotate
> >angle 0 sizeo wedge
> >2 mod 0 eq {1} {0} ifelse
> >setgray fill
> >   } for
> >  grestore
> > 
> >  %THIS ROUTINE FILLS THE CENTER WITH WHITE, AND SOMEHOW
> > PUTS A SOLID CIRCLE
> >  %  INSIDE THE GROUP OF WEDGES
> >  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> > 
> >  0 0 sizei 0 360 arc
> >  gsave
> >0 setgray stroke
> >  grestore
> >9 setgray fill
> > 
> >ipwidth 0 sizei wedge
> >0 setgray fill
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  %THIS ROUTINE PUTS A TINY DOT IN THE CENTER TO AID IN
> > MOUNTING THE DISC
> >  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> >  0.0 inch 0.0 inch .01 inch 0 360 arc
> >  gsave
> >stroke
> >  grestore
> >  0 setgray fill
> > 
> > } def
> > 
> > gsave
> >  2.5 inch 2.5 inch translate
> >  encoder
> > grestore
> >  2.5 inch 7.5 inch translate
> >  encoder
> > showpage
> > 
> With your hints on the import settings, I may have something usable
> if I can get it cut out accurately enough.  As for slot widths, this
> 50% duty cycle won't cut it at all, but if occurs to me that I can
> probably adjust not only the width of the index, but the angle too
> such that two of them could be mounted with the image sides to each
> other, and adjust the timing relative to each other to get the slot
> width needed.  I haven't re-added the center dot since I re-sized
> that snippet to be the spindle hole yet. That dot could be the
> registration dot for cutting them out of the sheet with an etch bit
> in the mill.
> 
> Would it be possible to adjust the 'duty cycle' of these by
> multiplying the slots but sequencing the black and white such that 3
> out of a sequence of 4 are black? or 4 out of 5, 5 out of 6 etc etc?
> 
> My brass one when it was done about 23:00 last night, I put on and
> was able to make it work at least as well with the encoder module in
> mode 0 as I was able to make the 39 cycle wheel work in mode 1.  But
> its duty cycle was about 57 on to 43 off, with an actual slot width
> setting of .31 for the duty cycle.  These opto units are great, 10 ns
> response times and rail to rail outputs, but their aperture, probably
> being expanded by the polished interior surfaces of these slots, is
> eating my lunch.
> 
> I'd try blackening the brass, but blackening is not very effective at
> the low incidence angles involved.  Before that, I think I'd cut into
> a trace on the board and dim the leds as I fed them with a current
> that was mid- range of the spec sheet, s/b around 12.5 ma if my math
> is correct.  I think at the 25 ma max, these things could see right
> through a sheet of .03125 brass!
> 
> I figured this encoder was gonna be a piece of cake when I started
> it, but I think Murphy must have eaten the cake too, he sure drinks
> enough of my beer. :)
> 
> As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here
> previously, most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good skin
> bruise rather than a nice flat black.  I believe that was because of
> my inability to get all the cutting oil washed back out of the brass
> with clean acetone or boiling in dish soap.  I can't go enough
> narrower to fix it with a 1/32" mill as I can't trim the slot width
> more than another thou, so today I will try dimming the leds.  There
> has to be a fix someplac

Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, June 03, 2012 03:06:54 PM dave did opine:

> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:39:30 -0400
> 
> gene heskett  wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 03, 2012 10:37:11 AM cogoman did opine:
> > > I reworked the postscript program so you can specify encoder wheel
> > > size, and index pulse width for an encoder, then you can call the
> > > subroutine (done twice at the bottom) at different places on the
> > > paper. Hopefully the instructions in another message for using GIMP
> > > can get you the resolution you need.
> > > 
> > > On 06/02/2012 03:58 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > Thanks cogoman.  This would be useful if I had room for a 6" OD
> > > > wheel, but my limit in the space I have is about 2.7" in diameter.
> > > 
> > > %! Postscript utility for printing multiple encoder wheels
> > > 
> > > /inch {72 mul} def  % #points/inch (don't change me)
> > > /sizeo 2 inch def   % outside radius of encoder wheel
> > > /sizei 1.8 inch def % inside radius of encoder wedges
> > > /segments 256 def   % number of segments (black and
> > > white) /ipwidth 5.5 def% width of index pulse bar
> > > /moveout 4 def% how far from left side to put encoder
> > > wheel /moveup 4 def% how far from the bottom to put the
> > > encoder wheel /angle 360 segments div def
> > > 
> > > /wedge
> > > 
> > >   { /radius exch def
> > >   
> > >/angle_s exch def
> > >/angle_e exch def
> > >newpath 0 0 moveto
> > >0 0 radius angle_s angle_e arc
> > >closepath
> > >   
> > >   } def
> > > 
> > > /encoder
> > > {
> > > 
> > >  % ADD IN THE ENCODER WHEEL AT THE SPECIFIED DIAMETER
> > >  gsave
> > >  
> > >   0 1 segments {
> > >   
> > >360 segments div rotate
> > >angle 0 sizeo wedge
> > >2 mod 0 eq {1} {0} ifelse
> > >setgray fill
> > >   
> > >   } for
> > >  
> > >  grestore
> > >  
> > >  %THIS ROUTINE FILLS THE CENTER WITH WHITE, AND SOMEHOW
> > > 
> > > PUTS A SOLID CIRCLE
> > > 
> > >  %  INSIDE THE GROUP OF WEDGES
> > >  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> > >  
> > >  0 0 sizei 0 360 arc
> > >  gsave
> > >  
> > >0 setgray stroke
> > >  
> > >  grestore
> > >  
> > >9 setgray fill
> > >
> > >ipwidth 0 sizei wedge
> > >0 setgray fill
> > >
> > >  %THIS ROUTINE PUTS A TINY DOT IN THE CENTER TO AID IN
> > > 
> > > MOUNTING THE DISC
> > > 
> > >  %THIS LINE SPECIFIES WHERE TO PUT THE CENTER
> > >  
> > >  0.0 inch 0.0 inch .01 inch 0 360 arc
> > >  gsave
> > >  
> > >stroke
> > >  
> > >  grestore
> > >  0 setgray fill
> > > 
> > > } def
> > > 
> > > gsave
> > > 
> > >  2.5 inch 2.5 inch translate
> > >  encoder
> > > 
> > > grestore
> > > 
> > >  2.5 inch 7.5 inch translate
> > >  encoder
> > > 
> > > showpage
> > 
> > With your hints on the import settings, I may have something usable
> > if I can get it cut out accurately enough.  As for slot widths, this
> > 50% duty cycle won't cut it at all, but if occurs to me that I can
> > probably adjust not only the width of the index, but the angle too
> > such that two of them could be mounted with the image sides to each
> > other, and adjust the timing relative to each other to get the slot
> > width needed.  I haven't re-added the center dot since I re-sized
> > that snippet to be the spindle hole yet. That dot could be the
> > registration dot for cutting them out of the sheet with an etch bit
> > in the mill.
> > 
> > Would it be possible to adjust the 'duty cycle' of these by
> > multiplying the slots but sequencing the black and white such that 3
> > out of a sequence of 4 are black? or 4 out of 5, 5 out of 6 etc etc?
> > 
> > My brass one when it was done about 23:00 last night, I put on and
> > was able to make it work at least as well with the encoder module in
> > mode 0 as I was able to make the 39 cycle wheel work in mode 1.  But
> > its duty cycle was about 57 on to 43 off, with an actual slot width
> > setting of .31 for the duty cycle.  These opto units are great, 10 ns
> > response times and rail to rail outputs, but their aperture, probably
> > being expanded by the polished interior surfaces of these slots, is
> > eating my lunch.
> > 
> > I'd try blackening the brass, but blackening is not very effective at
> > the low incidence angles involved.  Before that, I think I'd cut into
> > a trace on the board and dim the leds as I fed them with a current
> > that was mid- range of the spec sheet, s/b around 12.5 ma if my math
> > is correct.  I think at the 25 ma max, these things could see right
> > through a sheet of .03125 brass!
> > 
> > I figured this encoder was gonna be a piece of cake when I started
> > it, but I think Murphy must have eaten the cake too, he sure drinks
> > enough of my beer. :)
> > 
> > As for

Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[andy pugh]

On 3 June 2012 16:39, gene heskett  wrote:

>  But its duty cycle was
> about 57 on to 43 off,

I don't think duty cycle is all that important, unless it drifts far
enough to break the quadrature.

If you use analogue-output sensors with comparators to square them up,
then you can change the threshold voltage to set the duty cycle.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, andy pugh wrote:


Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:03:18 +0100
From: andy pugh 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

On 3 June 2012 16:39, gene heskett  wrote:


 But its duty cycle was
about 57 on to 43 off,


I don't think duty cycle is all that important, unless it drifts far
enough to break the quadrature.

If you use analogue-output sensors with comparators to square them up,
then you can change the threshold voltage to set the duty cycle.

--
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto



Also if you use a transmissive encoder, a "resolver" plate with 2 sets of 
slots with 90 degrees phase relation can make the light source and detector 
size and placement less important.





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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
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(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Sunday, June 03, 2012 08:11:48 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 3 June 2012 16:39, gene heskett  wrote:
> >  But its duty cycle was
> > about 57 on to 43 off,
> 
> I don't think duty cycle is all that important, unless it drifts far
> enough to break the quadrature.
> 
> If you use analogue-output sensors with comparators to square them up,
> then you can change the threshold voltage to set the duty cycle.

Yes, but because the encoders velocity pin outputs a new sample/hold value 
for every edge that goes by, its velocity output is almost a random value, 
which at best jumps up and down by 10-40% of its average value on a sample 
by sample basis, so both the duty cycle of the signals, and the accuracy of 
the quadrature are in the real world, very important. A very minor tweak to 
the led current can make a huge difference in the peak to peak noise in the 
encoders velocity output.  And that setting does not necessarily coincide 
perfectly with a 50% duty cycle as I found today after I tore up my circuit 
board and incorporated a 1k trimpot in series with each led so that I could 
set it for a 50% duty cycle.

>From the docs on the encoder module:

encoder..velocity (float, Out) - Velocity in scaled units per second. 
encoder uses an algorithm that greatly reduces quantization noise as 
compared to simply differentiating the position output. When the magnitude 
of the true velocity is below min-velocity-estimate, the velocity output is 
0

"greatly reduces quantization noise" everytime I read that, I'm like "in 
what universe does this happen?"  It sure isn't happening in this one.

Next I suppose is to get the disk to run a bit truer, it currently has 
about a 7 thou runout, probably because I fit the hole to the spindle a bit 
snuggly, so the side which happens to be sitting over the thread groove is 
possibly being pulled into the valley of the thread at that position by the 
thread peak 180 degrees away.

I can put a dial on the edge, position the spindle to the high point and 
loosen the lock nut, but I can't tap it with a screwdriver handle and move 
it to reduce that runout. I should give it a good enough whack to mark the 
thread on the inside of the hole & sand the mark away, and might yet.  
There is also about 10 thou of wobble runout, but short of selective 
sanding on the bearing nuts to make the faces of the nuts run truer, or 
adding a layer or 4 of alu foil in the right place (I've done that a couple 
other places in this POJ), it simply isn't going to run any truer.

In any event, it is now running noticeably  better in mode 0 than the 39 
cycle disk ever did in mode 1.  Some pid tuning yet to do of course, but 
its fairly stable.  It should cut some pretty high quality threads.  Those 
I've already cut were better than I usually get with std dies if I keep the 
back end of a cutoff tool properly sharpened.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
One way to stop a runaway horse is to bet on him.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Jon Elson]

gene heskett wrote:
> On Sunday, June 03, 2012 03:06:54 PM dave did opine:
>
>   
>> Any chance of collimating the LED's by putting a slit in front of them?
>>
>> 
> Placing the slit would be an exercise in precision I haven't mastered.
I got a nearly lifetime supply of beam-break sensors out of scrapped 
floppy drives.
The ones for track zero sensing had slits molded into the plastic and 
would be
good for this.  If you have any scrap floppy drives around you might 
check for
suitable sensors.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:01:32 AM Jon Elson did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 03, 2012 03:06:54 PM dave did opine:
> >> Any chance of collimating the LED's by putting a slit in front of
> >> them?
> > 
> > Placing the slit would be an exercise in precision I haven't mastered.
> 
> I got a nearly lifetime supply of beam-break sensors out of scrapped
> floppy drives.
> The ones for track zero sensing had slits molded into the plastic and
> would be
> good for this.  If you have any scrap floppy drives around you might
> check for
> suitable sensors.
> 
> Jon

Well, after last nights playing with a new 50 cycle disk, I have a lashup 
that works.  I put another 1k pot in series with each led, which allows me 
to get to 50% duty cycle required, and was able to get it working better in 
mode 0 than the 39 cycle disk worked in mode 1.

But, I stand by my comments in last nights message about the encoder 
module.  It is extremely sensitive to this bit of timing variation caused 
by a nominally 5 thou non concentricity in the way it is mounted (I believe 
because the center hole in the disk is slightly undersized, forcing one 
side of the hole to be pulled into the threads valley) both in duty cycle 
AND quadrature accuracy else the encoder.N.velocity output contains noise 
that at best is +- 50% of its average value despite the fact that even in 
the degraded state, it can still follow the spindle at 50 RPS!  I think I 
can improve it further yet with some mechanical adjustments that include 
marking its high point, and polishing out the central hole 3 or 4 thou on 
that side, then adding a layer or 2 of alu foil between it and the bearing 
nut to shim some of the about 10 thou wobble out of it.  Once that has been 
accurately done, I don't think the z drive will have nearly so ragged a 
drive tone in the G76 cycle.  But even noisy, the 39 cycle disk cut some 28 
tpi threads that were an excellent fit on a #209 nipple for one of my BP 
rifles.  Sharpening the single tooth tool properly is quite an exercise 
though.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Cats, no less liquid than their shadows, offer no angles to the wind.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/03/2012 11:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:


> As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here previously,
> most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good skin bruise rather
> than a nice flat black.  I believe that was because of my inability to get
> all the cutting oil washed back out of the brass with clean acetone or
> boiling in dish soap.  I can't go enough narrower to fix it with a 1/32"
> mill as I can't trim the slot width more than another thou, so today I will
> try dimming the leds.  There has to be a fix someplace, I just have to find
> it...
>

> Cheers, Gene
>

Gene,

Acetone is a lousy degreaser.  Scrub with Dawn dish detergent and hot 
water, the follow that with a rubdown of denatured alcohol and a clean, 
oil free rag.  Coffee filters or paper towels work good for that.  
That's all I do when I turn nickel silver fly rod ferrules, and I use 
cutting oil when turning them.  I black/blue them without any trouble 
after that type of cleaning.  Make sure you don't touch the brass with 
your bare hands after cleaning/degreasing, because skin oils will cause 
problems too.

Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 06:31:34 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/03/2012 11:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here
> > previously, most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good skin
> > bruise rather than a nice flat black.  I believe that was because of
> > my inability to get all the cutting oil washed back out of the brass
> > with clean acetone or boiling in dish soap.  I can't go enough
> > narrower to fix it with a 1/32" mill as I can't trim the slot width
> > more than another thou, so today I will try dimming the leds.  There
> > has to be a fix someplace, I just have to find it...
> > 
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> Gene,
> 
> Acetone is a lousy degreaser.

I didn't know that.

It cuts most anything else, so I figured it was good for oils too.

> Scrub with Dawn dish detergent and hot
> water, the follow that with a rubdown of denatured alcohol and a clean,
> oil free rag.  Coffee filters or paper towels work good for that.

I used some sort of dish detergent, probably liquid Palmolive, whatever was 
on the sink at the time.  For the alky I use the paint thinner, real stuff, 
no water in it like is in isopropol.

> That's all I do when I turn nickel silver fly rod ferrules, and I use
> cutting oil when turning them.  I black/blue them without any trouble
> after that type of cleaning.  Make sure you don't touch the brass with
> your bare hands after cleaning/degreasing, because skin oils will cause
> problems too.

Well known.  White cotton gloves that get tossed in the washing machine 
frequently, then kept in a quart ziploc bag till used.
 
> Mark

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Albrecht's Law:
Social innovations tend to the level of minimum tolerable well-
being.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 06:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Monday, June 04, 2012 06:31:34 AM Mark Wendt did opine:
>
>
>> On 06/03/2012 11:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>> As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here
>>> previously, most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good skin
>>> bruise rather than a nice flat black.  I believe that was because of
>>> my inability to get all the cutting oil washed back out of the brass
>>> with clean acetone or boiling in dish soap.  I can't go enough
>>> narrower to fix it with a 1/32" mill as I can't trim the slot width
>>> more than another thou, so today I will try dimming the leds.  There
>>> has to be a fix someplace, I just have to find it...
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene
>>>
>> Gene,
>>
>> Acetone is a lousy degreaser.
>>  
> I didn't know that.
>
> It cuts most anything else, so I figured it was good for oils too.
>
Yup, and acetone tends to leave an oily film on the surface.
>
>> Scrub with Dawn dish detergent and hot
>> water, the follow that with a rubdown of denatured alcohol and a clean,
>> oil free rag.  Coffee filters or paper towels work good for that.
>>  
> I used some sort of dish detergent, probably liquid Palmolive, whatever was
> on the sink at the time.  For the alky I use the paint thinner, real stuff,
> no water in it like is in isopropol.
>
Dawn is a much better degreaser.  Fella talked me into using it a few 
years back to wash down the surface of my cane rods before varnishing, 
and it worked great.  I started using it on the metal stuff I was bluing 
and got more consistent blues of the metal too.  And I always have a 
gallon of DNA laying around, for finishing and cleaning stuff.  DNA is 
great for cleaning up soldering flux residue too.
>
>> That's all I do when I turn nickel silver fly rod ferrules, and I use
>> cutting oil when turning them.  I black/blue them without any trouble
>> after that type of cleaning.  Make sure you don't touch the brass with
>> your bare hands after cleaning/degreasing, because skin oils will cause
>> problems too.
>>  
> Well known.  White cotton gloves that get tossed in the washing machine
> frequently, then kept in a quart ziploc bag till used.
>
Good deal.  Work with the first two, and you should be able to get 
decent bluing/blackening on brass.
>
>
>> Mark
>>  
> Cheers, Gene
>
Cheers,
Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[andy pugh]

On 4 June 2012 07:26, gene heskett  wrote:
> It is extremely sensitive to this bit of timing variation caused
> by a nominally 5 thou non concentricity in the way it is mounted (I believe
> because the center hole in the disk is slightly undersized, forcing one
> side of the hole to be pulled into the threads valley) both in duty cycle
> AND quadrature accuracy else the encoder.N.velocity output contains noise
> that at best is +- 50% of its average value despite the fact that even in
> the degraded state, it can still follow the spindle at 50 RPS!

Feed-per-rev mode uses the velocity output, but threading only uses
the position output, so shouldn't really care about noise on the
velocity pin.

I can't help feeling that a low-pass might help.

However, I also have noticed how noisy that velocity pin is. Perhaps
it is worth having a look at that anti-quatisation code to see if it
works properly.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 07:49:47 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/04/2012 06:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Monday, June 04, 2012 06:31:34 AM Mark Wendt did opine:
> >> On 06/03/2012 11:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here
> >>> previously, most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good
> >>> skin bruise rather than a nice flat black.  I believe that was
> >>> because of my inability to get all the cutting oil washed back out
> >>> of the brass with clean acetone or boiling in dish soap.  I can't
> >>> go enough narrower to fix it with a 1/32" mill as I can't trim the
> >>> slot width more than another thou, so today I will try dimming the
> >>> leds.  There has to be a fix someplace, I just have to find it...
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Cheers, Gene
> >> 
> >> Gene,
> >> 
> >> Acetone is a lousy degreaser.
> > 
> > I didn't know that.
> > 
> > It cuts most anything else, so I figured it was good for oils too.
> 
> Yup, and acetone tends to leave an oily film on the surface.
> 
> >> Scrub with Dawn dish detergent and hot
> >> water, the follow that with a rubdown of denatured alcohol and a
> >> clean, oil free rag.  Coffee filters or paper towels work good for
> >> that.
> > 
> > I used some sort of dish detergent, probably liquid Palmolive,
> > whatever was on the sink at the time.  For the alky I use the paint
> > thinner, real stuff, no water in it like is in isopropol.
> 
> Dawn is a much better degreaser.  Fella talked me into using it a few
> years back to wash down the surface of my cane rods before varnishing,
> and it worked great.  I started using it on the metal stuff I was bluing
> and got more consistent blues of the metal too.  And I always have a
> gallon of DNA laying around, for finishing and cleaning stuff.  DNA is
> great for cleaning up soldering flux residue too.

I've always steered clear of DNA, preferring the real thing for that as its 
faster.

Story from my tv days:  We used to buy freon TF in 6 gallon cartons for 
head cleaning of tape recorders, and we thought doing it 2-6x a day/machine 
was normal.  Then came the ozone hole, so I went looking for another 
cleaner, and settled on the Ace Hdwe alky, the one with the SLX label on 
the can.  That worked well too, and it only took me a day or so to discover 
that the head cleaning job went from several times a day for a busy 
machine, to once or twice a week!  That TF was leaving something behind 
that was attracting the tape oxide I think.  A huge difference in the 
amount of daily housekeeping in the control room required.
 
> >> That's all I do when I turn nickel silver fly rod ferrules, and I use
> >> cutting oil when turning them.  I black/blue them without any trouble
> >> after that type of cleaning.  Make sure you don't touch the brass
> >> with your bare hands after cleaning/degreasing, because skin oils
> >> will cause problems too.
> > 
> > Well known.  White cotton gloves that get tossed in the washing
> > machine frequently, then kept in a quart ziploc bag till used.
> 
> Good deal.  Work with the first two, and you should be able to get
> decent bluing/blackening on brass.

So noted, thanks Mark.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
1.79 x 10^12 furlongs per fortnight -- it's not just a good idea, it's
the law!

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 08:01:51 AM andy pugh did opine:

> On 4 June 2012 07:26, gene heskett  wrote:
> > It is extremely sensitive to this bit of timing variation caused
> > by a nominally 5 thou non concentricity in the way it is mounted (I
> > believe because the center hole in the disk is slightly undersized,
> > forcing one side of the hole to be pulled into the threads valley)
> > both in duty cycle AND quadrature accuracy else the
> > encoder.N.velocity output contains noise that at best is +- 50% of
> > its average value despite the fact that even in the degraded state,
> > it can still follow the spindle at 50 RPS!
> 
> Feed-per-rev mode uses the velocity output, but threading only uses
> the position output, so shouldn't really care about noise on the
> velocity pin.
> 
> I can't help feeling that a low-pass might help.
> 
I had one in there for a while, wasn't much help & did seem to give a 
feedback pole that boosted any oscillation tendencies.  I tried multipliers 
from .25 all they way out to .01, but according to halscope, the output 
slew rate nor the noise was being filtered in the manner I was looking for.

> However, I also have noticed how noisy that velocity pin is. Perhaps
> it is worth having a look at that anti-quatisation code to see if it
> works properly.

That would be much appreciated Andy, thanks.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
"I once witnessed a long-winded, month-long flamewar over the use of
mice vs. trackballs...It was very silly."
(By Matt Welsh)

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 08:00 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> Dawn is a much better degreaser.  Fella talked me into using it a few
>> years back to wash down the surface of my cane rods before varnishing,
>> and it worked great.  I started using it on the metal stuff I was bluing
>> and got more consistent blues of the metal too.  And I always have a
>> gallon of DNA laying around, for finishing and cleaning stuff.  DNA is
>> great for cleaning up soldering flux residue too.
>>  
> I've always steered clear of DNA, preferring the real thing for that as its
> faster.
>
It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol anymore 
though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I have about 1/2 
pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.
> Story from my tv days:  We used to buy freon TF in 6 gallon cartons for
> head cleaning of tape recorders, and we thought doing it 2-6x a day/machine
> was normal.  Then came the ozone hole, so I went looking for another
> cleaner, and settled on the Ace Hdwe alky, the one with the SLX label on
> the can.  That worked well too, and it only took me a day or so to discover
> that the head cleaning job went from several times a day for a busy
> machine, to once or twice a week!  That TF was leaving something behind
> that was attracting the tape oxide I think.  A huge difference in the
> amount of daily housekeeping in the control room required.
>
You sure the Ace alcohol ain't denatured?  I haven't seen anything but 
DNA or isopropyl on their shelves in years.
>
>
>
> Cheers, Gene
>
Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Dave]

On 6/4/2012 8:46 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol anymore
> though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I have about 1/2
> pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.
>

Yep, they are certain that you are going to guzzle it down at any 
moment, as we are all assumed to be heavy drinkers until found innocent.

Distilleries that make grain alcohol for consumption usually don't make 
anything that is 100%/200 proof.

I work with a distillery once in a while and I think their strongest 
product is 160 or 175 proof.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 09:02 AM, Dave wrote:
> On 6/4/2012 8:46 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
>
>> It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol anymore
>> though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I have about 1/2
>> pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.
>>
>>  
> Yep, they are certain that you are going to guzzle it down at any
> moment, as we are all assumed to be heavy drinkers until found innocent.
>
> Distilleries that make grain alcohol for consumption usually don't make
> anything that is 100%/200 proof.
>
> I work with a distillery once in a while and I think their strongest
> product is 160 or 175 proof.
>
> Dave
>
used to be you could get the 200 proof stuff at a pharmacy or any 
well-stocked electronics store.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 09:24:51 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/04/2012 08:00 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> Dawn is a much better degreaser.  Fella talked me into using it a few
> >> years back to wash down the surface of my cane rods before
> >> varnishing, and it worked great.  I started using it on the metal
> >> stuff I was bluing and got more consistent blues of the metal too. 
> >> And I always have a gallon of DNA laying around, for finishing and
> >> cleaning stuff.  DNA is great for cleaning up soldering flux residue
> >> too.
> > 
> > I've always steered clear of DNA, preferring the real thing for that
> > as its faster.
> 
> It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol anymore
> though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I have about 1/2
> pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.

Phillips I assume?  AKA Kentucky spring water...
 
> > Story from my tv days:  We used to buy freon TF in 6 gallon cartons
> > for head cleaning of tape recorders, and we thought doing it 2-6x a
> > day/machine was normal.  Then came the ozone hole, so I went looking
> > for another cleaner, and settled on the Ace Hdwe alky, the one with
> > the SLX label on the can.  That worked well too, and it only took me
> > a day or so to discover that the head cleaning job went from several
> > times a day for a busy machine, to once or twice a week!  That TF was
> > leaving something behind that was attracting the tape oxide I think. 
> > A huge difference in the amount of daily housekeeping in the control
> > room required.
> 
> You sure the Ace alcohol ain't denatured?  I haven't seen anything but
> DNA or isopropyl on their shelves in years.
> 
If it is, its buried in the fine print.  When I get out to the shop I'll 
dbl check.

Cheers Mark, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
The Czechs announced after Sputnik that they, too, would launch a 
satellite.
Of course, it would orbit Sputnik, not Earth!

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 09:28 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol anymore
>> though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I have about 1/2
>> pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.
>>  
> Phillips I assume?  AKA Kentucky spring water...
>
Nope, the label on this one sez "Ethyl Alcohol, U.S.P"
200 proof
Anhydrous
For industrial use only
Bottled by The Warner-Graham Company in Cockeysville, MD, just down the 
road a bit from me here at work.
>
>
>>> Story from my tv days:  We used to buy freon TF in 6 gallon cartons
>>> for head cleaning of tape recorders, and we thought doing it 2-6x a
>>> day/machine was normal.  Then came the ozone hole, so I went looking
>>> for another cleaner, and settled on the Ace Hdwe alky, the one with
>>> the SLX label on the can.  That worked well too, and it only took me
>>> a day or so to discover that the head cleaning job went from several
>>> times a day for a busy machine, to once or twice a week!  That TF was
>>> leaving something behind that was attracting the tape oxide I think.
>>> A huge difference in the amount of daily housekeeping in the control
>>> room required.
>>>
>> You sure the Ace alcohol ain't denatured?  I haven't seen anything but
>> DNA or isopropyl on their shelves in years.
>>
>>  
> If it is, its buried in the fine print.  When I get out to the shop I'll
> dbl check.
>
> Cheers Mark, Gene
>
If we can get non-DNA, non-isopropyl alcohol from Ace, I'll stop by 
there on the way home from work today.  ;-)

Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 09:45:18 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/04/2012 09:28 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol anymore
> >> though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I have about
> >> 1/2 pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.
> > 
> > Phillips I assume?  AKA Kentucky spring water...
> 
> Nope, the label on this one sez "Ethyl Alcohol, U.S.P"
> 200 proof
> Anhydrous
> For industrial use only
> Bottled by The Warner-Graham Company in Cockeysville, MD, just down the
> road a bit from me here at work.
> 
> >>> Story from my tv days:  We used to buy freon TF in 6 gallon cartons
> >>> for head cleaning of tape recorders, and we thought doing it 2-6x a
> >>> day/machine was normal.  Then came the ozone hole, so I went looking
> >>> for another cleaner, and settled on the Ace Hdwe alky, the one with
> >>> the SLX label on the can.  That worked well too, and it only took me
> >>> a day or so to discover that the head cleaning job went from several
> >>> times a day for a busy machine, to once or twice a week!  That TF
> >>> was leaving something behind that was attracting the tape oxide I
> >>> think. A huge difference in the amount of daily housekeeping in the
> >>> control room required.
> >> 
> >> You sure the Ace alcohol ain't denatured?  I haven't seen anything
> >> but DNA or isopropyl on their shelves in years.
> > 
> > If it is, its buried in the fine print.  When I get out to the shop
> > I'll dbl check.
> > 
> > Cheers Mark, Gene
> 
> If we can get non-DNA, non-isopropyl alcohol from Ace, I'll stop by
> there on the way home from work today.  ;-)
> 
> Mark
> 
I'll let you know before the day is over.  It also seems to make good 
shellac, but a funny thing, I needed some 4lb thinned to about a pound, 
thinning it down right in the can the 4lb cut dewaxed Zinzer came in.  Left 
it sitting on the end of the woodworking bench last fall.  About 6 weeks 
ago the can sprung a leak, one that left no visible trail as to where it 
is, can looks great, but I now have a coat of shellac I'll need to use a 
gallon of that stuff to cut it back off the bench top. :(

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Do not use the blue keys on this terminal.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 09:52 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> If we can get non-DNA, non-isopropyl alcohol from Ace, I'll stop by
>> there on the way home from work today.  ;-)
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>  
> I'll let you know before the day is over.  It also seems to make good
> shellac, but a funny thing, I needed some 4lb thinned to about a pound,
> thinning it down right in the can the 4lb cut dewaxed Zinzer came in.  Left
> it sitting on the end of the woodworking bench last fall.  About 6 weeks
> ago the can sprung a leak, one that left no visible trail as to where it
> is, can looks great, but I now have a coat of shellac I'll need to use a
> gallon of that stuff to cut it back off the bench top. :(
>
> Cheers, Gene
>

Cool beans, thanks.

Ever have a gallon of spar varnish come blasting out of a cane rod "dip" 
tube?  Makes a concrete garage floor kinda like a skating rink.  I did 
get a beautiful shop floor finish out of the deal though...

Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[dave]

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:39:50 -0400
gene heskett  wrote:

> On Monday, June 04, 2012 06:31:34 AM Mark Wendt did opine:
> 
> > On 06/03/2012 11:39 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > As for the various methods of blackening brass, discussed here
> > > previously, most were butt ugly, giving all the colors of a good
> > > skin bruise rather than a nice flat black.  I believe that was
> > > because of my inability to get all the cutting oil washed back
> > > out of the brass with clean acetone or boiling in dish soap.  I
> > > can't go enough narrower to fix it with a 1/32" mill as I can't
> > > trim the slot width more than another thou, so today I will try
> > > dimming the leds.  There has to be a fix someplace, I just have
> > > to find it...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Cheers, Gene
> > 
> > Gene,
> > 
> > Acetone is a lousy degreaser.
> 
> I didn't know that.
> 
> It cuts most anything else, so I figured it was good for oils too.
> 
> > Scrub with Dawn dish detergent and hot
> > water, the follow that with a rubdown of denatured alcohol and a
> > clean, oil free rag.  Coffee filters or paper towels work good for
> > that.
Indeed, Dawn works well; so does TSP ( tri-sodium phosphate ) often a
component in dishwasher soaps. Rinse well with water, distilled if you
are picky. Dry in oven. Or use alcohol, methanol or denatured ethanol. 
Everclear is way too expensive to use that way ( I'm tight ). 

Surprisingly enough the nuclear people use acetone and then compressed
air to prep threaded holes for locktite. 

HTH
Dave
> 
> I used some sort of dish detergent, probably liquid Palmolive,
> whatever was on the sink at the time.  For the alky I use the paint
> thinner, real stuff, no water in it like is in isopropol.
> 
> > That's all I do when I turn nickel silver fly rod ferrules, and I
> > use cutting oil when turning them.  I black/blue them without any
> > trouble after that type of cleaning.  Make sure you don't touch the
> > brass with your bare hands after cleaning/degreasing, because skin
> > oils will cause problems too.
> 
> Well known.  White cotton gloves that get tossed in the washing
> machine frequently, then kept in a quart ziploc bag till used.
>  
> > Mark
> 
> Cheers, Gene


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[dave]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 09:40:51 -0400
Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On 06/04/2012 09:28 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> It's getting much harder to get 200 proof pure ethyl alcohol
> >> anymore though.  Our wondrous ATF  has regulated it so much.  I
> >> have about 1/2 pint of it sitting here at work on my shelf.
> >>  
> > Phillips I assume?  AKA Kentucky spring water...
> >
> Nope, the label on this one sez "Ethyl Alcohol, U.S.P"
> 200 proof
> Anhydrous
> For industrial use only
> Bottled by The Warner-Graham Company in Cockeysville, MD, just down
> the road a bit from me here at work.

200 proof is anhydrous only until you open the bottle especially in
high humidity areas. No way to win that one it is just too hydroscopic. 
There are a couple of way to make anhydrous alcohol, the industrial way
by azeotropic distillation with benzene which will leave traces of
benzene; very hard on the liver and distillation over sodium.
Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a pound
of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof. ;-)

Dave

> >
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[dave]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 09:59:02 -0400
Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On 06/04/2012 09:52 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> If we can get non-DNA, non-isopropyl alcohol from Ace, I'll stop by
> >> there on the way home from work today.  ;-)
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >>  
> > I'll let you know before the day is over.  It also seems to make
> > good shellac, but a funny thing, I needed some 4lb thinned to about
> > a pound, thinning it down right in the can the 4lb cut dewaxed
> > Zinzer came in.  Left it sitting on the end of the woodworking
> > bench last fall.  About 6 weeks ago the can sprung a leak, one that
> > left no visible trail as to where it is, can looks great, but I now
> > have a coat of shellac I'll need to use a gallon of that stuff to
> > cut it back off the bench top. :(
> >
> > Cheers, Gene

Well at least it is soluble. :-)
Be glad is wasn't an air curing epoxy.

BTW- Having hard shellac around is handy. Once it is mixed the shelf
life is limited. That is exactly the reason for keeping a gallon of
denatured alcohol around. In the lab we used 3A; has a denaturant the
doesn't screw up most chemical analysis.  

Dave
> >
> 
> Cool beans, thanks.
> 
> Ever have a gallon of spar varnish come blasting out of a cane rod
> "dip" tube?  Makes a concrete garage floor kinda like a skating
> rink.  I did get a beautiful shop floor finish out of the deal
> though...
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Dave]

You from eastern KY?

On 6/4/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
> Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a pound
> of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof.;-)
>

170 proof alcohol is a little hard to be around, the vapor can pretty 
much knock you over if you open a hatch on a tank full of it.

I really can't imagine drinking it, let alone 200 proof.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
>> Nope, the label on this one sez "Ethyl Alcohol, U.S.P"
>> 200 proof
>> Anhydrous
>> For industrial use only
>> Bottled by The Warner-Graham Company in Cockeysville, MD, just down
>> the road a bit from me here at work.
>>  
> 200 proof is anhydrous only until you open the bottle especially in
> high humidity areas. No way to win that one it is just too hydroscopic.
> There are a couple of way to make anhydrous alcohol, the industrial way
> by azeotropic distillation with benzene which will leave traces of
> benzene; very hard on the liver and distillation over sodium.
> Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a pound
> of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof. ;-)
>
> Dave
>
Not that I'd know anything about stills and such...  ;-)

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[dave]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 12:18:47 -0400
Mark Wendt  wrote:

> On 06/04/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
> >> Nope, the label on this one sez "Ethyl Alcohol, U.S.P"
> >> 200 proof
> >> Anhydrous
> >> For industrial use only
> >> Bottled by The Warner-Graham Company in Cockeysville, MD, just down
> >> the road a bit from me here at work.
> >>  
> > 200 proof is anhydrous only until you open the bottle especially in
> > high humidity areas. No way to win that one it is just too
> > hydroscopic. There are a couple of way to make anhydrous alcohol,
> > the industrial way by azeotropic distillation with benzene which
> > will leave traces of benzene; very hard on the liver and
> > distillation over sodium. Naturally, all of us keep a still with
> > ground glass joints and a pound of sodium around just so we can
> > make 200 proof. ;-)
> >
> > Dave
> >
> Not that I'd know anything about stills and such...  ;-)

P Chem should have taken care of that. 


I had a friend that needed to distill some wine ---> brandy. 
He said he had a friend that had a friend that knew a friend with a
still. ;-)

Dave


Still (npi) crude stills are easy ... we needed to clean up gals of
toluene used for extracting hops for brewing value and also for doing
the distillation moisture. 
Three 8 x 16 concrete blocks, one 55 gal drum, 3 feet of pipe to screw
into the bung loosely packed with SS wool feeding  Cu  pipe 2"  outside
with 3/4" inside with appropriate fittings. Garden hose to low end of
condenser and short hose at top to waste. Propane burner underneath. 
All of this in a gravel parking lot 100' from the lab. It scared the
hell out of some people but it worked and we recovered and reused drums
of toluene that way. It was only good for the moistures at that point
but it sure beat using analytical grade toluene. 

Dave
> 
> Mark
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:01:38 PM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/04/2012 09:52 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> If we can get non-DNA, non-isopropyl alcohol from Ace, I'll stop by
> >> there on the way home from work today.  ;-)
> >> 
> >> Mark
> > 
> > I'll let you know before the day is over.  It also seems to make good
> > shellac, but a funny thing, I needed some 4lb thinned to about a
> > pound, thinning it down right in the can the 4lb cut dewaxed Zinzer
> > came in.  Left it sitting on the end of the woodworking bench last
> > fall.  About 6 weeks ago the can sprung a leak, one that left no
> > visible trail as to where it is, can looks great, but I now have a
> > coat of shellac I'll need to use a gallon of that stuff to cut it
> > back off the bench top. :(
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> Cool beans, thanks.
 
Yeah, its DNA.  Darn it.

> Ever have a gallon of spar varnish come blasting out of a cane rod "dip"
> tube?

No, can't say as I have.  What caused that?

> Makes a concrete garage floor kinda like a skating rink.  I did
> get a beautiful shop floor finish out of the deal though...

Chuckle...  Was that your excuse to put down a wooden floor?

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
 ok guys .. so whens the next commit :PP
 when they come to get me

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:37:59 PM Dave did opine:

> You from eastern KY?
> 
> On 6/4/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
> > Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a pound
> > of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof.;-)
> 
> 170 proof alcohol is a little hard to be around, the vapor can pretty
> much knock you over if you open a hatch on a tank full of it.
> 
> I really can't imagine drinking it, let alone 200 proof.
> 
> Dave
> 
Royal Navy Rum, which I think has been disco'ed, was 190 proof.  You could 
still get it, and Phillips, 50 years ago.  But my personal limit is about 
100 down to 80, Black Label Jack is good good stuff if you get a bottle you 
can still smell the corn in.  It does vary some.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
"Earth is a great, big funhouse without the fun."
-- Jeff Berner

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Dave]

On 6/4/2012 2:41 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:37:59 PM Dave did opine:
>
>
>> You from eastern KY?
>>
>> On 6/4/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
>>  
>>> Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a pound
>>> of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof.;-)
>>>
>> 170 proof alcohol is a little hard to be around, the vapor can pretty
>> much knock you over if you open a hatch on a tank full of it.
>>
>> I really can't imagine drinking it, let alone 200 proof.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>  
> Royal Navy Rum, which I think has been disco'ed, was 190 proof.  You could
> still get it, and Phillips, 50 years ago.  But my personal limit is about
> 100 down to 80, Black Label Jack is good good stuff if you get a bottle you
> can still smell the corn in.  It does vary some.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>


190 Proof  whoa!
I've slugged down Bacardi 151 in the long past and that was a struggle.
Of course after a couple of shots of that, not much matters..  ;-)

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[dave]

On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 15:25:15 -0400
Dave  wrote:

> On 6/4/2012 2:41 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:37:59 PM Dave did opine:
> >
> >
> >> You from eastern KY?
> >>
> >> On 6/4/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
> >>  
> >>> Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a
> >>> pound of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof.;-)
> >>>
> >> 170 proof alcohol is a little hard to be around, the vapor can
> >> pretty much knock you over if you open a hatch on a tank full of
> >> it.
> >>
> >> I really can't imagine drinking it, let alone 200 proof.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>  
> > Royal Navy Rum, which I think has been disco'ed, was 190 proof.
> > You could still get it, and Phillips, 50 years ago.  But my
> > personal limit is about 100 down to 80, Black Label Jack is good
> > good stuff if you get a bottle you can still smell the corn in.  It
> > does vary some.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene
> >
> 
> 
> 190 Proof  whoa!
> I've slugged down Bacardi 151 in the long past and that was a
> struggle. Of course after a couple of shots of that, not much
> matters..  ;-)
> 
> Dave
> 
There was a story about the former head of the lab I worked for. He
came in one morning with a rip-roaring sore throat and asked one of the
technicians what would help it; this was back when we had 190 proof or
better around the lab for parathion analysis. The tech casually said to
try some lab alcohol and the guy took a slug. It dehydrated his vocal
cords so he didn't/couldn't talk for awhile. ... maybe several days. 

Dave
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Dave]

On 6/4/2012 5:47 PM, dave wrote:
> There was a story about the former head of the lab I worked for. He
> came in one morning with a rip-roaring sore throat and asked one of the
> technicians what would help it; this was back when we had 190 proof or
> better around the lab for parathion analysis. The tech casually said to
> try some lab alcohol and the guy took a slug. It dehydrated his vocal
> cords so he didn't/couldn't talk for awhile. ... maybe several days.
>
> Dave
>

I can believe it.   I still remember drinking that Bacardi 151.  I only 
did that once.  :-)

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Monday, June 04, 2012 09:06:32 PM Dave did opine:

> On 6/4/2012 2:41 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:37:59 PM Dave did opine:
> >> You from eastern KY?
> >> 
> >> On 6/4/2012 11:40 AM, dave wrote:
> >>> Naturally, all of us keep a still with ground glass joints and a
> >>> pound of sodium around just so we can make 200 proof.;-)
> >> 
> >> 170 proof alcohol is a little hard to be around, the vapor can pretty
> >> much knock you over if you open a hatch on a tank full of it.
> >> 
> >> I really can't imagine drinking it, let alone 200 proof.
> >> 
> >> Dave
> > 
> > Royal Navy Rum, which I think has been disco'ed, was 190 proof.  You
> > could still get it, and Phillips, 50 years ago.  But my personal
> > limit is about 100 down to 80, Black Label Jack is good good stuff if
> > you get a bottle you can still smell the corn in.  It does vary some.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> 190 Proof  whoa!
> I've slugged down Bacardi 151 in the long past and that was a struggle.
> Of course after a couple of shots of that, not much matters..  ;-)
> 
> Dave
> 
I have been around when a bottle of Phillips was passed around, but since 
the first fellow to sample it was wasted in the 5 minutes it took to get to 
me, and I wanted to enjoy the party, I passed.  A 6 pack spread over about 
8 hours, and a few papers rolled out of a bowl, and I was happy.  Good 
northern CA sensemia, not the local hay which reminds me of battery acid.

But that was long ago & far away, I quite all smoke in the spring of '89 
cold turkey.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
Fortune's current rates:

Answers .10
Long answers.25
Answers requiring thought   .50
Correct answers $1.00

Dumb looks are still free.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Przemek Klosowski]

>> Distilleries that make grain alcohol for consumption usually don't make
>> anything that is 100%/200 proof.

There's a physical limit on distillation of ethanol from water---you
can only get 95.6% (191 proof). If you want better than that you have
to add benzene and distill that, but then the product contains trace
amounts of benzene and is not food-grade so it's much harder to
obtain. OK, so there's spectroscopically pure ethanol, involving
special processes and absurd price is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/04/2012 02:05 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>
> Yeah, its DNA.  Darn it.
>
Ah, nuts.
>
>> Ever have a gallon of spar varnish come blasting out of a cane rod "dip"
>> tube?
>>  
> No, can't say as I have.  What caused that?
>
The dip tube is a 1 3/4" diameter clear tube, with a removable valve 
threaded into a stopper.  That plugs into the bottom of the tube.  I'd 
plugged the stopper into the tube, climbed up on the step ladder and 
began to pour the varnish into the tube.  The tube got about 3/4's full 
or so, and the weight of the varnish column pushed the stopper out.  Big 
popping sound, and varnish gushing onto the floor.  Guess I hadn't 
pushed the stopper in all the way.  ;-)
>
>> Makes a concrete garage floor kinda like a skating rink.  I did
>> get a beautiful shop floor finish out of the deal though...
>>  
> Chuckle...  Was that your excuse to put down a wooden floor?
>
No need now.  Varnished concrete is easy to clean.  ;-)
> Cheers, Gene
>

Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:23:40 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/04/2012 02:05 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > Yeah, its DNA.  Darn it.
> 
> Ah, nuts.
> 
> >> Ever have a gallon of spar varnish come blasting out of a cane rod
> >> "dip" tube?
> > 
> > No, can't say as I have.  What caused that?
> 
> The dip tube is a 1 3/4" diameter clear tube, with a removable valve
> threaded into a stopper.  That plugs into the bottom of the tube.  I'd
> plugged the stopper into the tube, climbed up on the step ladder and
> began to pour the varnish into the tube.  The tube got about 3/4's full
> or so, and the weight of the varnish column pushed the stopper out.  Big
> popping sound, and varnish gushing onto the floor.  Guess I hadn't
> pushed the stopper in all the way.  ;-)
 
I think that's called Hindsight. Its always perfect. :) My problem was in 
thinking it blew out of the top of the tube, and I of course was looking 
for the cause. :(

Have you considered using a similar construction but in heavier walled PVC, 
with the bottom cap glued on with its drain valve, but fitted with an 
adapter on top that the usual square knobbed plug screws into, with a wire 
attached to the inside to hold and retrieve the rod with, and a hose barb 
screwed into the plug so you can attach a cheap refrigeration pump and pull 
a decent vacuum on it for 15 minutes before letting the air (or better yet, 
an air displacer gas to preserve the varnish) back in, and letting it sit 
for another hour to suck the varnish into the pores before you lift the rod 
out?

No clue what it would do for the action & feel, but it should result in a 
more durable rod, quite waterproof should it get dunked as the tip section 
is prone to be when the net is brought to hand.

Actually, with that small a surface exposed to the air, the varnish will 
probably store right in that tube better than if drained back into the can, 
just refill when it no longer covers the rod hanging from the wire.  
Arrange your lifting rig so the wet varnish doesn't get on the threads as 
the rod is lifted out, put a shot of that carbon dioxide or whatever it is 
that displaces the oxygen in the ullage above the varnish (Highland Hdwe in 
Hotlanta has it in their catalog) and it should last for years.  And should 
you need to make another, stuff to do it is at Lowes, cheap.

> >> Makes a concrete garage floor kinda like a skating rink.  I did
> >> get a beautiful shop floor finish out of the deal though...
> > 
> > Chuckle...  Was that your excuse to put down a wooden floor?
> 
> No need now.  Varnished concrete is easy to clean.  ;-)

And slicker than snot on a doorknob when wet...  :)

> Mark

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[Mark Wendt]

On 06/05/2012 10:56 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> The dip tube is a 1 3/4" diameter clear tube, with a removable valve
>> threaded into a stopper.  That plugs into the bottom of the tube.  I'd
>> plugged the stopper into the tube, climbed up on the step ladder and
>> began to pour the varnish into the tube.  The tube got about 3/4's full
>> or so, and the weight of the varnish column pushed the stopper out.  Big
>> popping sound, and varnish gushing onto the floor.  Guess I hadn't
>> pushed the stopper in all the way.  ;-)
>>  
>
> I think that's called Hindsight. Its always perfect. :) My problem was in
> thinking it blew out of the top of the tube, and I of course was looking
> for the cause. :(
>
Indeed.  ;-)  20-20 or better.
> Have you considered using a similar construction but in heavier walled PVC,
> with the bottom cap glued on with its drain valve, but fitted with an
> adapter on top that the usual square knobbed plug screws into, with a wire
> attached to the inside to hold and retrieve the rod with, and a hose barb
> screwed into the plug so you can attach a cheap refrigeration pump and pull
> a decent vacuum on it for 15 minutes before letting the air (or better yet,
> an air displacer gas to preserve the varnish) back in, and letting it sit
> for another hour to suck the varnish into the pores before you lift the rod
> out?
>
The drain cap needs to be removable to be able to clean the inside of 
the tube and the valve after use.It's a very simple operation 
actually.  The rod is set into the tube, and the drain cock is opened so 
that the varnish drains at the rate of about 3" - 4" per minute.  Leaves 
a nice, even coat of thin varnish on the rod.
> No clue what it would do for the action&  feel, but it should result in a
> more durable rod, quite waterproof should it get dunked as the tip section
> is prone to be when the net is brought to hand.
>
That's the real point behind varnishing a rod - to protect the outer 
surface from outside agencies - dirt, moisture, UV, and other nasty 
things that can harm the cane underneath the varnish.  Plus, a well done 
finish makes the rod.
> Actually, with that small a surface exposed to the air, the varnish will
> probably store right in that tube better than if drained back into the can,
> just refill when it no longer covers the rod hanging from the wire.
> Arrange your lifting rig so the wet varnish doesn't get on the threads as
> the rod is lifted out, put a shot of that carbon dioxide or whatever it is
> that displaces the oxygen in the ullage above the varnish (Highland Hdwe in
> Hotlanta has it in their catalog) and it should last for years.  And should
> you need to make another, stuff to do it is at Lowes, cheap.
>
The varnish drains right back into the can, so storage is easy.  A shot 
of Bloxygen at the end of the finishing session keeps the varnish from 
curing in the can.
>
>>
>> No need now.  Varnished concrete is easy to clean.  ;-)
>>  
> And slicker than snot on a doorknob when wet...  :)
>
If it's getting wet, I shouldn't be in the shop.  ;-)
>
> Cheers, Gene
>
Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder discs

[gene heskett]

On Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:31:16 AM Mark Wendt did opine:

> On 06/05/2012 10:56 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> >> The dip tube is a 1 3/4" diameter clear tube, with a removable valve
> >> threaded into a stopper.  That plugs into the bottom of the tube. 
> >> I'd plugged the stopper into the tube, climbed up on the step ladder
> >> and began to pour the varnish into the tube.  The tube got about
> >> 3/4's full or so, and the weight of the varnish column pushed the
> >> stopper out.  Big popping sound, and varnish gushing onto the floor.
> >>  Guess I hadn't pushed the stopper in all the way.  ;-)
> > 
> > I think that's called Hindsight. Its always perfect. :) My problem was
> > in thinking it blew out of the top of the tube, and I of course was
> > looking for the cause. :(
> 
> Indeed.  ;-)  20-20 or better.
> 
> > Have you considered using a similar construction but in heavier walled
> > PVC, with the bottom cap glued on with its drain valve, but fitted
> > with an adapter on top that the usual square knobbed plug screws
> > into, with a wire attached to the inside to hold and retrieve the rod
> > with, and a hose barb screwed into the plug so you can attach a cheap
> > refrigeration pump and pull a decent vacuum on it for 15 minutes
> > before letting the air (or better yet, an air displacer gas to
> > preserve the varnish) back in, and letting it sit for another hour to
> > suck the varnish into the pores before you lift the rod out?
> 
> The drain cap needs to be removable to be able to clean the inside of
> the tube and the valve after use.It's a very simple operation
> actually.  The rod is set into the tube, and the drain cock is opened so
> that the varnish drains at the rate of about 3" - 4" per minute.  Leaves
> a nice, even coat of thin varnish on the rod.
 
Ahh, I hadn't considered that, having in mind the thought of a slow lifting 
of the rod to do the same, but my way would expose it to airborne dust, 
your way not so much.

> > No clue what it would do for the action&  feel, but it should result
> > in a more durable rod, quite waterproof should it get dunked as the
> > tip section is prone to be when the net is brought to hand.
> 
> That's the real point behind varnishing a rod - to protect the outer
> surface from outside agencies - dirt, moisture, UV, and other nasty
> things that can harm the cane underneath the varnish.  Plus, a well done
> finish makes the rod.

Absolutely!  I still like the thought of the vacuum impregnation though.
 
> > Actually, with that small a surface exposed to the air, the varnish
> > will probably store right in that tube better than if drained back
> > into the can, just refill when it no longer covers the rod hanging
> > from the wire. Arrange your lifting rig so the wet varnish doesn't
> > get on the threads as the rod is lifted out, put a shot of that
> > carbon dioxide or whatever it is that displaces the oxygen in the
> > ullage above the varnish (Highland Hdwe in Hotlanta has it in their
> > catalog) and it should last for years.  And should you need to make
> > another, stuff to do it is at Lowes, cheap.
> 
> The varnish drains right back into the can, so storage is easy.  A shot
> of Bloxygen at the end of the finishing session keeps the varnish from
> curing in the can.
 
Yup.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[Roland Jollivet]

I looked at similar some months back.


http://precisionmicro.com/6/processes/photo-etching-|-photo-chemical-etching-|-chemical-milling-|-metal-etching

These guys wanted £1000 to get started. Still not sure how many discs I
would get for that.

And an american crowd;
http://www.spgveco.com/precision+metal/products/precision+metal+parts

quoted;
10   $66.65/ea
100$6.65/ea
500$4.65/ea
1000  $2.80/ea


And a time tooling charge of $665.00

So, all in all, unless you're pretty serious about it, it'll cost a bit.

But I'd be curious to see what pricing you get. I tried hard to source
'stock' discs, but they would have none of it.

Regards
Roland




http://precisionmicro.com/6/processes/photo-etching-|-photo-chemical-etching-|-chemical-milling-|-metal-etching

On 5 April 2011 13:27, andy pugh  wrote:

> I just found this website:
>
> http://www.photofab.co.uk/index.php/products/optical-encoder-discs-and-actuators/
>
> I don't know what the pricing would be like, but that could be a
> perfect way to add a spindle encoder, if combined with
>
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=1711830
> or
>
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0196987
> (I also found a tiny surface-mount one a while ago, but can't see it now)
>
> --
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise
> men"
>
>
> --
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> smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
> And it wants your games.
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[Tom Easterday]

On Apr 5, 2011, at 7:27 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> I just found this website:
> http://www.photofab.co.uk/index.php/products/optical-encoder-discs-and-actuators/
> 
> I don't know what the pricing would be like, but that could be a
> perfect way to add a spindle encoder, if combined with
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=1711830
> or
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0196987
> (I also found a tiny surface-mount one a while ago, but can't see it now)

This looks like a nice module if you want something very tiny...
http://usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/aedr

I haven't used one, but might at some point in order to get an encoder on my 
spindle where I have very limited space.  A custom wheel may be required but 
the prices sound too high for a one-off.

-Tom


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[andy pugh]

On 5 April 2011 15:18, Tom Easterday  wrote:

> This looks like a nice module if you want something very tiny...
> http://usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/aedr

Ah, yes, that is the one I was looking for:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=7160604

I reckon you could squeeze one up between the belts looking at the
pulley on belt-driven spindles.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[gene heskett]

On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 11:45:11 AM Roland Jollivet did opine:

> I looked at similar some months back.
> 
> 
> http://precisionmicro.com/6/processes/photo-etching-|-photo-chemical-etc
> hing-|-chemical-milling-|-metal-etching
> 
> These guys wanted �1000 to get started. Still not sure how many discs I
> would get for that.
> 
> And an american crowd;
> http://www.spgveco.com/precision+metal/products/precision+metal+parts
> 
> quoted;
> 10   $66.65/ea
> 100$6.65/ea
> 500$4.65/ea
> 1000  $2.80/ea
> 
> 
> And a time tooling charge of $665.00
> 
> So, all in all, unless you're pretty serious about it, it'll cost a bit.
> 
> But I'd be curious to see what pricing you get. I tried hard to source
> 'stock' discs, but they would have none of it.
> 
> Regards
> Roland
> 
Are y'all forgetting there is a bit of (I think python) code on the wiki 
that will carve what should be quite serviceable encoder disks?  I 
downloaded it 2-3 years ago, and modified it to make a disk that fit 
between the bearing locknuts on my 7x12, but blew up my stock of opto stuff 
I was going to use, mainly because the things don't have pin numbers for 
squat on them and the led's didn't like the reverse bias, crowbarring the 5 
volt wall wart I was going to power them with.

Someday when I find my round tuit, I'll get back to that project. I will of 
course be in the market for an interface to that spindle motors 
speed/direction controller by then.

At the time I made it, IIRC it took my little mill about an hour to 
carve/drill it, in a small sheet of about 20 ga. alu.
 
> http://precisionmicro.com/6/processes/photo-etching-|-photo-chemical-etc
> hing-|-chemical-milling-|-metal-etching
> 
> On 5 April 2011 13:27, andy pugh  wrote:
> > I just found this website:
> > 
> > http://www.photofab.co.uk/index.php/products/optical-encoder-discs-and
> > -actuators/
> > 
> > I don't know what the pricing would be like, but that could be a
> > perfect way to add a spindle encoder, if combined with
> > 
> > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getP
> > roduct&R=1711830 or
> > 
> > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getP
> > roduct&R=0196987 (I also found a tiny surface-mount one a while ago,
> > but can't see it now)
> > 
> > --
> > atp
> > "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of
> > wise men"
> > 
> > 
> > --
> >  Xperia(TM) PLAY
> > It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
> > smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
> > And it wants your games.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> -- Xperia(TM) PLAY
> It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
> smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
> And it wants your games.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
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-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)


You can't cheat the phone company.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[andy pugh]

On 5 April 2011 16:58, gene heskett  wrote:

> Are y'all forgetting there is a bit of (I think python) code on the wiki
> that will carve what should be quite serviceable encoder disks?

Not at all, and I am using two home-made encoders on my mill and lathe
spindles.
However, if you need a small diameter and a large linecount you find
that even thin slitting saws make too big a slot.
The little SMT quadrature counter is suitable for 180 lines per inch,
and I rather suspect that my milling machine isn't :-)

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[doug metzler]

I've been playing with these:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AS5134-ZSSTCT-ND

all you need is a magnet.

DougM


On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:11 AM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 5 April 2011 16:58, gene heskett  wrote:
>
> > Are y'all forgetting there is a bit of (I think python) code on the wiki
> > that will carve what should be quite serviceable encoder disks?
>
> Not at all, and I am using two home-made encoders on my mill and lathe
> spindles.
> However, if you need a small diameter and a large linecount you find
> that even thin slitting saws make too big a slot.
> The little SMT quadrature counter is suitable for 180 lines per inch,
> and I rather suspect that my milling machine isn't :-)
>
> --
> atp
> "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise
> men"
>
>
> --
> Xperia(TM) PLAY
> It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
> smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
> And it wants your games.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[Jon Elson]

>>
>> And an american crowd;
>> http://www.spgveco.com/precision+metal/products/precision+metal+parts
>>
>> quoted;
>> 10   $66.65/ea
>> 100$6.65/ea
>> 500$4.65/ea
>> 1000  $2.80/ea
>> 
Oh, for printing solder paste onto SMT PC boards, there are companies 
that will burn a BIG stencil in .005" stainless for as little as $50.  
Most use a laser, but there are photo-etching techniques, also.  Google 
solder stencil.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs

[gene heskett]

On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:49:03 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 5 April 2011 16:58, gene heskett  wrote:
> > Are y'all forgetting there is a bit of (I think python) code on the
> > wiki that will carve what should be quite serviceable encoder disks?
> 
> Not at all, and I am using two home-made encoders on my mill and lathe
> spindles.
> However, if you need a small diameter and a large linecount you find
> that even thin slitting saws make too big a slot.
> The little SMT quadrature counter is suitable for 180 lines per inch,
> and I rather suspect that my milling machine isn't :-)

IIRC I had about 45 holes left after the code mods, so in quadrature that 
would have been 2 degree accuracy, which for my piddly little projects, 
would have been major overkill for a thread cutting operation.  That was 
the thought at the time anyway.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)


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beef.
-- Tom Robbins

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[andy pugh]

On 22 December 2011 16:01, Roland Jollivet  wrote:
> These guys are on your turf too;
> http://www.precisionmicro.com/

This is an interesting process I hadn't heard of before:
http://www.precisionmicro.com/49/processes/laser-evolved-electro-forming---leef


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[Anders Wallin]

> I have been given a quote for electrochemical machining of an encoder
> for my project.
> http://www.photofab.co.uk/index.php/services/chemical-etch-photo-etch/
> There is a £95 setup charge, then another £100 for a sheet of parts. I
> get 25 of my design (75mm dia) on a sheet, but only need 6 or so.
> The material I want to use is 0.3mm 304 stainless. I can add different
> designs to the sheet for no extra charge.
> Does anyone have anything intricate that they need making from
> stainless shim like this?

What resolution can they produce?
How do you read the encoder, transmission/reflection of IR-LED or ?
Would the pattern produce a square wave-signal, or a sine-wave (which
can be 'interpolated' to yield higher resolution)

a dream project of mine would be a telescope mount. To minimize
tracking error one should measure the rotation directly on the geared
axis (not the motor) and one wants maybe 4 million pulses (22 bits)
per rev for that.
>From what I've understood it's done by A/D converting a sine-wave
encoder, so if you get e.g. 8 to 10-bits of reliable interpolated data
then you
want an encoder with 12 to 14 bits of sine-shaped counts, i.e. up to
16k-counts/rev. How big a circle would that require?

Anders

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:57:00 AM andy pugh did opine:

> On 22 December 2011 16:01, Roland Jollivet  
wrote:
> > These guys are on your turf too;
> > http://www.precisionmicro.com/
> 
> This is an interesting process I hadn't heard of before:
> http://www.precisionmicro.com/49/processes/laser-evolved-electro-forming
> ---leef

Humm, slower I expect for multilayer pcb's but no doubt useful for similar 
things that are needed n up on a sheet.

Unforch, for the pcb business, absolute time is of the essence.

I wonder if its the environmental disaster that etching pcb's can and 
usually is. Is anybody able to discern that?
 
Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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My web page: 
You can get everything in life you want, if you will help enough other
people get what they want.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[andy pugh]

On 22 December 2011 16:45, Anders Wallin  wrote:

> a dream project of mine would be a telescope mount. To minimize
> tracking error one should measure the rotation directly on the geared
> axis (not the motor) and one wants maybe 4 million pulses (22 bits)
> per rev for that.

That sounds like a job for a resolver, rather than an incremental encoder.
I am not sure which chip the Pico converter uses, but the same family
go up to a claimed resolution of 2 arc minutes.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/synchro-resolver-to-digital-converter/7094709/
Not inexpensive, though.
Couple that with a multipole resolver and you might get what you want.

> want an encoder with 12 to 14 bits of sine-shaped counts, i.e. up to
> 16k-counts/rev. How big a circle would that require?

That depends mainly on the sensor. The sensor I am intending to use is
75 lines per inch, so 16k would be a 68 inch circle..
There is a 150 lpi version, for a mere 3-foot encoder.

-- 
atp
The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong.

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[Claude Froidevaux]

Le 22.12.2011 17:45, Anders Wallin a écrit :
>> I have been given a quote for electrochemical machining of an encoder
>> for my project.
>> http://www.photofab.co.uk/index.php/services/chemical-etch-photo-etch/
>> There is a £95 setup charge, then another £100 for a sheet of parts. I
>> get 25 of my design (75mm dia) on a sheet, but only need 6 or so.
>> The material I want to use is 0.3mm 304 stainless. I can add different
>> designs to the sheet for no extra charge.
>> Does anyone have anything intricate that they need making from
>> stainless shim like this?
> What resolution can they produce?
> How do you read the encoder, transmission/reflection of IR-LED or ?
> Would the pattern produce a square wave-signal, or a sine-wave (which
> can be 'interpolated' to yield higher resolution)
>
> a dream project of mine would be a telescope mount. To minimize
> tracking error one should measure the rotation directly on the geared
> axis (not the motor) and one wants maybe 4 million pulses (22 bits)
> per rev for that.
> > From what I've understood it's done by A/D converting a sine-wave
> encoder, so if you get e.g. 8 to 10-bits of reliable interpolated data
> then you
> want an encoder with 12 to 14 bits of sine-shaped counts, i.e. up to
> 16k-counts/rev. How big a circle would that require?

interpolation on a 1Vpp coder can quite easily go to 12 bit for 1/4 of 
period (interpolation is done on the arctan of (sin/cos), there is 2 
signals in quadrature). This give 16384x interpolation factor. In this 
case you only need about 250 pulse pet turn.

for your application, an "industry standard" 1vpp encoder with 2500 
period per turn, interpolated with 9 bit is enough. The interpolation 
can be done with an appropriate micro controller (must have simultaneous 
sampling of both channel)



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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, December 22, 2011 04:33:44 PM Anders Wallin did opine:

> > I have been given a quote for electrochemical machining of an encoder
> > for my project.
> > http://www.photofab.co.uk/index.php/services/chemical-etch-photo-etch/
> > There is a £95 setup charge, then another £100 for a sheet of parts. I
> > get 25 of my design (75mm dia) on a sheet, but only need 6 or so.
> > The material I want to use is 0.3mm 304 stainless. I can add different
> > designs to the sheet for no extra charge.
> > Does anyone have anything intricate that they need making from
> > stainless shim like this?
> 
> What resolution can they produce?
> How do you read the encoder, transmission/reflection of IR-LED or ?
> Would the pattern produce a square wave-signal, or a sine-wave (which
> can be 'interpolated' to yield higher resolution)
> 
> a dream project of mine would be a telescope mount. To minimize
> tracking error one should measure the rotation directly on the geared
> axis (not the motor) and one wants maybe 4 million pulses (22 bits)
> per rev for that.

The resolution needed would likely be best measured on the worm gears axis 
in order to do the multiplication needed.  This could lead to an error due 
to backlash in the worm/gear fitting, and of course the cyclic errors as 
the two gears turn but it seems to me much of that could be reduced to near 
vanishing by either spring loading a dual bull gear, lots of $ for that, or 
gently spring loading the worm axis into a bull gear it doesn't quite 
bottom in.  But that does (to me at least) seem allow one to pick a star 
out of the star atlas, plug its name into the co-ordinates table, massage 
that against ntpd derived time, and slew the scope to where that star was 
awfully close to centered in the FOV.

FWIW, I have an elderly Meade DS-10 that I wouldn't mind being able to put 
in its own little roll off roof shed, with a decent camera fixed to the 
eyepiece piping video stills into a nice comfy house.  That thing is a 
decent light bucket, we once took the eyepiece out and fired a wooden 
kitchen match at its focal point by light of the full moon on a warm summer 
evening nearly 20 years ago.  The secondary mirror had to be replaced as 
the alu surface corroded from condensation, but the primary, if after 25 
years, it still has its figure, is still in decent shape it should be good 
to go.  Because here, the only clear air is in the dead of winter, I 
haven't had it out recently.

> From what I've understood it's done by A/D converting a sine-wave
> encoder, so if you get e.g. 8 to 10-bits of reliable interpolated data
> then you
> want an encoder with 12 to 14 bits of sine-shaped counts, i.e. up to
> 16k-counts/rev. How big a circle would that require?
> 
> Anders
> 
> 
> -- Write once. Port to many.
> Get the SDK and tools to simplify cross-platform app development. Create
> new or port existing apps to sell to consumers worldwide. Explore the
> Intel AppUpSM program developer opportunity. appdeveloper.intel.com/join
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Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: 
 come on
 it's a pico clone
 it's *meant* to be annoying

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[dave]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:13:11 +
andy pugh  wrote:

> On 22 December 2011 16:45, Anders Wallin
>  wrote:
> 
> > a dream project of mine would be a telescope mount. To minimize
> > tracking error one should measure the rotation directly on the
> > geared axis (not the motor) and one wants maybe 4 million pulses
> > (22 bits) per rev for that.
> 
> That sounds like a job for a resolver, rather than an incremental
> encoder. I am not sure which chip the Pico converter uses, but the
> same family go up to a claimed resolution of 2 arc minutes.
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/synchro-resolver-to-digital-converter/7094709/
> Not inexpensive, though.
> Couple that with a multipole resolver and you might get what you want.
> 
> > want an encoder with 12 to 14 bits of sine-shaped counts, i.e. up to
> > 16k-counts/rev. How big a circle would that require?
> 
> That depends mainly on the sensor. The sensor I am intending to use is
> 75 lines per inch, so 16k would be a 68 inch circle..
> There is a 150 lpi version, for a mere 3-foot encoder.

The fancy encoder on some Fanuc motors comes to mind. I think Jon Elson
doped out how to read one of them. 

Dave
> 


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Discs, possible collective order

[Jon Elson]

dave wrote:
> The fancy encoder on some Fanuc motors comes to mind. I think Jon Elson
> doped out how to read one of them. 
>   
Yup, Fanuc serial pulse coders come in 64K, 128K and 1 million count 
versions.
The 64K don't dither at all, too.  These have A860-xxx part numbers, and are
called the (alpha) (A or I) (64 or 128 or 1M) so you can construct your own
descriptor.

I do know how to read these out, but don't have a finished product yet.

Jon

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