Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I wonder why they don't publish their prices or show you the open cabinet?

John

On 5/24/2012 1:11 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the solution to this problem
> I always see over at Practical Machinist CNC forum.  The preferred
> solution to creating 3 phase power over there is the PhasePerfect
> electronic converters.  I've never personally used one, but they
> look like an excellent alternative to gensets, capacitor phase converters,
> or diesel generators.  They have units from 10HP to 60HP.
>
> -- Ralph
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Be interesting to find out the prices...

John

On 5/24/2012 3:08 PM, Dave wrote:
> On 5/24/2012 2:11 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
>> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the solution to this problem
>> I always see over at Practical Machinist CNC forum.  The preferred
>> solution to creating 3 phase power over there is the PhasePerfect
>> electronic converters.  I've never personally used one, but they
>> look like an excellent alternative to gensets, capacitor phase converters,
>> or diesel generators.  They have units from 10HP to 60HP.
>>
>> -- Ralph
>>
> I sent them a note to get some pricing.   The other problem that I have
> is that a 240 volt - single phase service doesn't have enough KWs to
> drive my machine, unless perhaps I disconnect my house - which would
> probably not go well
> with the wife.  ;-)
>
> Dave
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Thanks for the price sheet. That is over double what I can get a diesel 
generator for around here.

John

On 5/24/2012 3:54 PM, Dave wrote:
> I just asked them for pricing...and they sent me a price sheet.  They
> sell direct...
>
> I pasted the PDF file to this site:
> http://privatepaste.com/download/f55b9d8378
>
> Nothing inexpensive about them.
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/24/2012 4:26 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Be interesting to find out the prices...
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/24/2012 3:08 PM, Dave wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/24/2012 2:11 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the solution to this problem
>>>> I always see over at Practical Machinist CNC forum.  The preferred
>>>> solution to creating 3 phase power over there is the PhasePerfect
>>>> electronic converters.  I've never personally used one, but they
>>>> look like an excellent alternative to gensets, capacitor phase converters,
>>>> or diesel generators.  They have units from 10HP to 60HP.
>>>>
>>>> -- Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I sent them a note to get some pricing.   The other problem that I have
>>> is that a 240 volt - single phase service doesn't have enough KWs to
>>> drive my machine, unless perhaps I disconnect my house - which would
>>> probably not go well
>>> with the wife.  ;-)
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

It's hard to say but I "think" the 15hp motor worked the best. I've been 
running and trying different things for a 1 1/2 years so my memory is a 
bit clouded on exactly how it worked or didn't work. I do know at one 
time my workaround was to ramp up the spindle from 2k to 6k and it ran 
like that and that was on one of the 10hp motors.

Do you think adding a line reactor after the rotary phase converter 
would help in any way? I can get a 3 phase 20hp one for $150 so it is 
cheap enough to try if anyone thinks it might help in any way.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/AC_Line_Reactors/LR-2020

Taking the reactor out of the VMC sure made it worse... and the scope 
trace looked horrible jagged.

Just to refresh the circuit is: [ stuff in brackets ] is inside the machine.

phase converter > [ step up transformer > commutating reactor > infeed 
unit (power supply)]
On 5/24/2012 8:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> This is the third motor I've tried on this beast. The current one is a
>> 15hp 1750 rpm very heavy built with a large multi-belt pulley on the
>> shaft. I've tried cap combinations out the yen yang. The voltage levels
>> I reported a while back was with different combinations of caps to
>> balance the generated leg.
>>
> Did any of these motors make a difference (better or worse)?
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Jon,

Thanks for that lead, a quick search and I found a 6 page instructions 
for making a 10hp and tuning it up as well. He goes into great detail 
and makes it simple to try. I see his start circuit is a bit different 
than mine as he uses a control transformer but I have a large box of 
phase converter parts so I can duplicate the drawing exactly.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/FitchWConverter.pdf

I'll probley wire up the 10hp this week end and give that a shot before 
running off to buy the generator.

Thanks
John

On 5/24/2012 8:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> I just asked them for pricing...and they sent me a price sheet.  They
>> sell direct...
>>
>> I pasted the PDF file to this site:
>> http://privatepaste.com/download/f55b9d8378
>>
>> Nothing inexpensive about them.
>>
> Ummm hmmm, not quite as bad as I expected, but you probably need some
> of the options, so even the smallest would end up at $4k.  Maybe you could
> provide your own input reactor for a lot less than $900.  And, there's no
> guarantee this would fix the problem, either!
>
> There used to be a guy, Fitch Williams, on rec.crafts.metalworking that was
> the expert on rotary converter tuning.  He had a technique for getting the
> L-L variation down to +/- 2 V or so on almost every unit.  You might search
> for some of his write-ups on this.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I can get the model number in a bit but it is a dual trace scope with 
storage. The second trace would show up as a horz line so I'm sure I had 
some knob in the wrong spot. I tried to follow the instructions but 
could not find where it showed how to make a dual trace. It would be 
nice to compaire at least one line phase to the generated phase.

Thanks
John

On 5/24/2012 9:17 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 09:59:35 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> My research shows that a suitable single phase motor to drive a
>> generator does not exist above 7.5 hp and even at that level your
>> talking>1k. I assume it would take more than 7.5hp to drive a generator
>> capable of running a machine that size. So I really don't see this as an
>> option at this point.
>>
> I hadn't considered that aspect of it John, but I suspect you are 99.44%
> correct.
>
>> Heck I couldn't even figure out how to get 2 traces to show up much less
>> try for 3 on the scope. I even tried to join the teck forum but they
>> must have thought I was a spammer or they don't moderate it any more
> Not surprising.  The tektronix that existed in the 60's, was gone by the
> late 70's and its all been downhill since (IMO).
>
> Most tek scopes are at least dual trace, is that one a single trace?
>
> There are even 4 trace scopes out there, Hitachi makes a fine one.
>
> But in a pinch, set the camera on a tripod, hook the scope up, triggered by
> its internal line sample, then adjust the sweep speed to show about 1.5
> cycles and take a pix.  Move the probe to the next phase and take a pix,
> and finally to the 3rd phase and take another picture.  Then disconnect the
> probe as its not made for continuous duty at those voltages.
>
> Then, using the scopes face bezel as the registration, merge all 3 shots
> into one common image.  Since the scope is synched to its own supply, the
> phase differences can be measured from this merged image.  My guess is that
> the positive going slope of the 3 traces will not be equally spaced
> horizontally.  And it should be.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Do you have an example circuit of this that I can drool over?

Thanks
John

On 5/24/2012 11:50 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 24.05.12 20:31, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Kirk Wallace wrote:
>>>   I would think an Aurdino like processor could measure the voltage
>>>   and current on each phase and switch capacitors in or out as
>>>   needed.
>>>
>> This is a lot harder than it sounds.  Connecting two capacitors with
>> different voltages on them together leads to nearly infinite currents.
>> This would probably be even worse to the CNC drives.
> No, not really that hard. There is no practical reason to allow
> substantially different voltages on the capacitors, if fast switches are
> used, as suggested. It takes only a transistor, a diode, and a resistor
> to add a zero crossing detector to the micro.¹ Now it can switch the
> capacitors in and out at near-zero voltage, twice per mains cycle, if
> necessary. (Alternatively, before relying on zero crossing detection
> built into the SSRs, I'd like to read the datasheet, and check them out.)
>
> Erik
>
> ¹ Ideally connected to an interrupt input. (And then drive some triacs
>to switch the capacitors. It'll be cheaper than SSRs.)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I have 2 10hp and 1 15hp motors and enough parts to make 3 rotary phase 
converters. Total capital invested is in the $750-$1000 range. That size 
motor used is cheap around here. As for turning it back into cash that 
would be more difficult as there is not much demand for phase converters 
that I know of in that size range but you can never tell I might be able 
to sell one or two for $500 or so.

I agree it would be a cleaner solution and I'm very tempted at this 
point. Without much research so far I assume I would need the $4.7k 
model 55 amp model. Further testing is needed... I seldom run more than 
one CNC machine at a time and almost never run the 3-phase manual lathe 
at the same time. So the $3.1k model may fill my needs with 30 amps.

The manual lathe and the CNC lathe are very happy running on a phase 
converter but I'd rather not have the noise of the idler motor in the 
shop as they seem to be a bit noisy... and I'm rambling on now just 
trying to make some sense.

I need to open a dialog with phase technologies and see what they say.

Just reading the PT instructions they do show that they take the single 
phase and convert it to DC then back to AC but only do that for one leg...

http://www.phaseperfect.com/files/op_inst_pt.pdf

A snippet of the manual

The input module takes power from the input lines and charges a DC bus. 
The output module then draws power
from the DC bus to generate an AC voltage referenced to L2 of the input.

L1 and L2 of the single-phase input pass directly through the phase 
converter to provide two legs of the threephase
output. A manufactured phase is combined with the two input legs to 
produce three-phase output power.
Hence, the three-phase output voltage will be equal to the single-phase 
input voltage (e.g. a 240 VAC
single-phase input will produce 240 VAC three-phase output).

The three-phase output is delta configured. While the phase-to-phase 
voltages are equal, the phase-to-ground
voltages are not equal. Phase-to-ground voltage for both T1 and T2 
should be approximately 120V. Phase-toground
for T3 should be approximately 208V. For three-phase loads that are 
designed for delta connection, the
load derives its voltage phase-to-phase, so the phase-to-ground voltage 
should not affect the operation of the
equipment. If the connected load has a neutral connection and requires 
wye configured power, the output
of the phase converter must be passed through a delta-to-wye isolation 
transformer before connection to
the load.

Thanks
John

On 5/25/2012 6:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 May 2012 11:42, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Thanks for the price sheet. That is over double what I can get a diesel
>> generator for around here.
> It might be a better / cleaner solution, though. And it might release
> some capital if you can sell your existing rotary convertors?
> How much other 3-phase kit do you have?
>
> I have found a lot of documentation on the Siemens site:
> http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/llisapi.dll?func=cslib.csinfo&lang=en&siteid=cseus&aktprim=0&extranet=standard&viewreg=WW&objid=10804939&treeLang=en
> Which infeed unit do you have? Have you checked to see if it can be
> configured for single-phase operation?
> (it looks like SimoDrive is the drive part, and the Dc converter will
> be something else)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Custom Encoders

[John Thornton]

That's a neat solution... how will you mount the disk? I assume the disk 
is a mask for a dark background?

John

On 5/25/2012 7:09 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> I have built a motor.
> Internal space is quite tight, so I am using the Avago AEDR8340K
> encoder detector
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-encoders/7160604P/
> (Also available from Mouser etc). This is a 3mm x 5mm two-channel
> quadrature detector. TTL output wires direct to Mesa / Parport / Pico.
> I initially tried to make my own encoder disc by etch-resisting (with
> a pen) some polished aluminium then etching with FeCl
> http://youtu.be/c1zCG-uPaoM
> This almost worked, but there was a problem with missed/multiple
> counts. The AEDR application notes make it clear that it really can't
> be expected to work right at anyhting other than native resolution. In
> the case of the "K" variant that is 75lpi, which means 0.15mm (0.006")
> slot width. i got a quote for Photochemical etching from Photofab
> which was rather reasonable (£4 each) but with a £100 setup charge and
> a 25 minimum quantity (s £200+ all in).
> I then found that within half a mile of my house is a company who
> specialise in laser cutting solder stencils for PCB assembly. They
> have a machine with a 25um beam width optimised for cutting stainless
> sheet:
> www.sparkslaser.com
> They are doing me 2 different parts for £50 (and have already given me
> one fully-finished part as a "sample", which tested with 100% success
> this lunchtime.
>
> I will get pictures later.
>
> This seems like quite an easy way to make a spindle encoder, for
> example, where off-the-shelf encoders tend to have too small a bore. I
> imagine that if Basildon has a stencil-making business, then they must
> be numerous.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I sent perfect phase an email with a bunch of questions so we will see 
what they say. In the mean time I'll try the Fitch tuning method for the 
rotary phase converter.

John

On 5/25/2012 6:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 May 2012 11:42, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Thanks for the price sheet. That is over double what I can get a diesel
>> generator for around here.
> It might be a better / cleaner solution, though. And it might release
> some capital if you can sell your existing rotary convertors?
> How much other 3-phase kit do you have?
>
> I have found a lot of documentation on the Siemens site:
> http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/llisapi.dll?func=cslib.csinfo&lang=en&siteid=cseus&aktprim=0&extranet=standard&viewreg=WW&objid=10804939&treeLang=en
> Which infeed unit do you have? Have you checked to see if it can be
> configured for single-phase operation?
> (it looks like SimoDrive is the drive part, and the Dc converter will
> be something else)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Totally missed the second paragraph... no I've not checked to see if it 
works on single phase. I'll get the model number in a bit. If you can 
decipher the Siemens documents my hat is off to you sir as it is really 
confusing to me.

John

On 5/25/2012 6:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 May 2012 11:42, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Thanks for the price sheet. That is over double what I can get a diesel
>> generator for around here.
> It might be a better / cleaner solution, though. And it might release
> some capital if you can sell your existing rotary convertors?
> How much other 3-phase kit do you have?
>
> I have found a lot of documentation on the Siemens site:
> http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/llisapi.dll?func=cslib.csinfo&lang=en&siteid=cseus&aktprim=0&extranet=standard&viewreg=WW&objid=10804939&treeLang=en
> Which infeed unit do you have? Have you checked to see if it can be
> configured for single-phase operation?
> (it looks like SimoDrive is the drive part, and the Dc converter will
> be something else)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Andy,

The infeed unit is a 6SN1145-1BA00-0BA0

If you can shed any light in that tunnel that would great

Thanks
John

On 5/25/2012 6:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 May 2012 11:42, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Thanks for the price sheet. That is over double what I can get a diesel
>> generator for around here.
> It might be a better / cleaner solution, though. And it might release
> some capital if you can sell your existing rotary convertors?
> How much other 3-phase kit do you have?
>
> I have found a lot of documentation on the Siemens site:
> http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/llisapi.dll?func=cslib.csinfo&lang=en&siteid=cseus&aktprim=0&extranet=standard&viewreg=WW&objid=10804939&treeLang=en
> Which infeed unit do you have? Have you checked to see if it can be
> configured for single-phase operation?
> (it looks like SimoDrive is the drive part, and the Dc converter will
> be something else)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Ok, what I had been running was 4x60uf caps between 1 and 3 and 1x60uf 
cap between 2 and 3 (generated leg on 3 then) and that seemed to work 
the best.

at the phase converter
to ground 1 = 120v, 2 = 120v, 3 = 226v
phase to phase 1 + 2 = 244v, 2 + 3 = 248v, 1 + 3 = 262v

at the 380v taps on the transformer
to ground 1 = 205v, 2 = 205v, 3 = 324v
phase to phase 1 + 2 = 388v, 2 + 3 = 394v, 1 + 3 =

On 5/9/2012 7:59 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 9 May 2012 13:51, John Thornton  wrote:
>> I don't understand what you mean by "weak" leg?
> You said you had it "wildly out of balance" ?
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

It's two miles away up on the highway. The cost would be enormous to get 
3 phase out here in the woods. Just guessing based on other information 
I've gathered about bringing 3 phase to a shop about 50k or so to bring 
3 phase to my shop.  Heck they wanted 15k to connect up my other brother 
John's shop and the 3 phase is hanging on the pole 50' from his shop. 
Plus they have a minimum monthly charge that would buy a phase perfect 
rather fast.

John

On 5/25/2012 8:13 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 09:04:33 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> It's hard to say but I "think" the 15hp motor worked the best. I've been
>> running and trying different things for a 1 1/2 years so my memory is a
>> bit clouded on exactly how it worked or didn't work. I do know at one
>> time my workaround was to ramp up the spindle from 2k to 6k and it ran
>> like that and that was on one of the 10hp motors.
>>
>> Do you think adding a line reactor after the rotary phase converter
>> would help in any way? I can get a 3 phase 20hp one for $150 so it is
>> cheap enough to try if anyone thinks it might help in any way.
>>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-
>> z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/AC_Line_Reactors/LR-2020
>>
>> Taking the reactor out of the VMC sure made it worse... and the scope
>> trace looked horrible jagged.
>>
>> Just to refresh the circuit is: [ stuff in brackets ] is inside the
>> machine.
>>
>> phase converter>  [ step up transformer>  commutating reactor>  infeed
>> unit (power supply)]
> John;  How far away are you from an actual 3 phase power source?  Might the
> one time construction costs the power peddlers want to bring it to you be
> competitive when spread out over the years?  In my own case, it would be
> about a 3 block run out here in this cul-de-sac about 50 yards inside the
> city limits.
>> On 5/24/2012 8:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> John Thornton wrote:
>>>> This is the third motor I've tried on this beast. The current one is
>>>> a 15hp 1750 rpm very heavy built with a large multi-belt pulley on
>>>> the shaft. I've tried cap combinations out the yen yang. The voltage
>>>> levels I reported a while back was with different combinations of
>>>> caps to balance the generated leg.
>>> Did any of these motors make a difference (better or worse)?
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
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> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Gene,

The scope is a Tektronix 2232 if you can shed any light on how to 
capture two waves with it I'm all ears.

Thanks
John

On 5/24/2012 9:17 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 09:59:35 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> My research shows that a suitable single phase motor to drive a
>> generator does not exist above 7.5 hp and even at that level your
>> talking>1k. I assume it would take more than 7.5hp to drive a generator
>> capable of running a machine that size. So I really don't see this as an
>> option at this point.
>>
> I hadn't considered that aspect of it John, but I suspect you are 99.44%
> correct.
>
>> Heck I couldn't even figure out how to get 2 traces to show up much less
>> try for 3 on the scope. I even tried to join the teck forum but they
>> must have thought I was a spammer or they don't moderate it any more
> Not surprising.  The tektronix that existed in the 60's, was gone by the
> late 70's and its all been downhill since (IMO).
>
> Most tek scopes are at least dual trace, is that one a single trace?
>
> There are even 4 trace scopes out there, Hitachi makes a fine one.
>
> But in a pinch, set the camera on a tripod, hook the scope up, triggered by
> its internal line sample, then adjust the sweep speed to show about 1.5
> cycles and take a pix.  Move the probe to the next phase and take a pix,
> and finally to the 3rd phase and take another picture.  Then disconnect the
> probe as its not made for continuous duty at those voltages.
>
> Then, using the scopes face bezel as the registration, merge all 3 shots
> into one common image.  Since the scope is synched to its own supply, the
> phase differences can be measured from this merged image.  My guess is that
> the positive going slope of the 3 traces will not be equally spaced
> horizontally.  And it should be.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Could this be part of the issue? chapter 7 harmonics bouncing back from 
the caps in the rotary phase converter perhaps? so maybe a filter... 
real early here so only partially awake

John

When the requirements regarding system fault level are observed and when
using the appropriate line supply filters, the harmonics fed back into 
the line
supply lie below the compatibility level of Class 3 of the 
electromagnetic environment
of industrial plants and systems according to EN61000–2–4:2002.
When the recommended SIEMENS line filter is used and the EMC mounting/
installation regulations are complied with, the noise emission limits 
according to
EN50081–2 Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) – Generic Standard, Noise
Immunity/emission – Part 2: Industrial environments (1993) are complied 
with.
Notice
If line filters are used that SIEMENS has not certified for use with 
SIMODRIVE
6SN11xx/6SLxx, this can result in harmonics being fed back into the line
supply. These harmonics can damage/disturb other equipment connected to
this line supply. Certification, e.g. CE is invalid.
Certificates from Siemens are invalid, for example CE , UL. You are 
responsible
for generating/obtaining the certificates for this new combination.
It is not permissible to connect additional loads after the line filter

On 5/25/2012 2:59 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 May 2012 20:17, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> The infeed unit is a 6SN1145-1BA00-0BA0
> This looks like the manual.
> http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/llisapi.dll/csfetch/59401543/PJU_0212_en.pdf?func=cslib.csFetch&nodeid=60683460&forcedownload=true
>
> There is an interesting section about how to connect to various
> earthing styles. Which might be very relevant to your situation and
> the reactor.
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

That does sound like a cheaper alternative. I used to do that trick with 
Hatachi drives to power up vibratory feeder bowls that came tuned to 50 
herz and would not run in the US on 60 herz.

I think I try and tune my 10hp phase converter using the new information 
I have on tuning a rotary phase converter and see what the result from 
that is.

John

On 5/25/2012 2:51 PM, Dave wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 1:33 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 May 2012, andy pugh wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 18:19:39 +0100
>>> From: andy pugh
>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>>   
>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor
>>>
>>> On 25 May 2012 18:00, Dave   wrote:
>>>
>>>
 For only generating 1 phase (the missing leg) they are charging some
 serious money for those inverters.

>>> They are doing rather more than a typical inverter drive does. They
>>> create a smooth 3-phase waveform regardless of load.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if a VFD (with suitably tweaked parameters) and 3  inductors would
>> do. I suspect VFDs have fairly low switching frequencies (say 4-10 KHz) so
>> would need a fair amount of filtering
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>>
>>
> Many 3 phase input VFDs will run if only two of the phases are connected
> - in other words they will run on single phase power.   Usually the
> control voltage comes off of only two of the phases.
>
> I saw a web article a few months ago where a guy had connected a VFD to
> single phase and in order to fake out the VFD so it would function, he
> connected the third input leg to one of the other input legs via
> a power capacitor (metal can - continuous duty, etc) .   I didn't save
> that link.
>
> If you put a filter choke (line reactor) after the VFD it would smooth
> the power output substantially.   When I was with Siemens we had who did
> this and the standard recommendation was to oversize the VFD by 30-40%.
> But this was for smaller motor applications back then - 3-5 hp etc.
> This was before cheap single phase input VFDs were available for 5-7.5
> hp motors.
>
> Automation Direct has a 20 hp 230 volt input VFD for about $1100.   Add
> a line reactor for another $160 and give it a shot.They have a 30
> day return policy.   Plenty of time to figure out whether or not you can
> jury rig it into working.
> and a  lot cheaper than a PhasePerfect.
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/DURApulse_-_GS3_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_Sensorless_Vector_Control%29/DURApulse_-_GS3_Drive_Units_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_SLV%29
>
> We'd all cheer you on if you want to try this.  :-)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

The coop never had meter readers, you used to have to read your own 
meter. Now they are automagic and report back to the mother ship over 
the wires.

John

On 5/25/2012 3:24 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 04:16:35 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> It's two miles away up on the highway. The cost would be enormous to get
>> 3 phase out here in the woods. Just guessing based on other information
>> I've gathered about bringing 3 phase to a shop about 50k or so to bring
>> 3 phase to my shop.  Heck they wanted 15k to connect up my other brother
>> John's shop and the 3 phase is hanging on the pole 50' from his shop.
>> Plus they have a minimum monthly charge that would buy a phase perfect
>> rather fast.
>>
>> John
>>
> Sounds like somebody wants to gouge because today, they have only meter
> readers and have to farm out the construction.  I've heard of 25k/mile
> before, but it was never done for the obvious reason.  The latter sounds
> like a variation of demand billing.  And that is an old old practice they
> don't mention in the fine print.  If you have 2 transmitters, it will cost
> quite a bit to test one into a dummy load while the other is on the air.
> Unforch, the commission demands the backup be tested and verified weekly.
>
> But I did have to ask...
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I should be able to get a screen shot of the front panel from the manual 
when I get back from the big city this afternoon... now I just have to 
remember that long.

John

On 5/25/2012 3:34 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 04:25:36 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> Gene,
>>
>> The scope is a Tektronix 2232 if you can shed any light on how to
>> capture two waves with it I'm all ears.
>>
>> Thanks
>> John
> Post (or PM to me) a pic sharp enough to read control labels&  I'll see
> what I can remember.  I had a piece of junk called a 2235 to contend with
> in 84 when I became the CE at WDTV.  Very badly distorted beam spot that
> tek would not replace the crt to fix, and it was well within warranty. I
> finally cut a P.O. for a replacement crt that was almost $850 dollars to
> fix it.  That was the end of my being impressed with tek products.  My
> motto has been "anything but tek" ever since.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

When I monitored the DC buss it was rock steady at 600-601v while running.

John

On 5/25/2012 9:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> gene heskett wrote:
>> However, if the problem is related to the spikes on the line caused by slow
>> recovery characteristics of the diodes in this kits high voltage DC supply,
>> those spikes will be attenuated by the poor high frequency response of the
>> transformers.  They won't look as if they are big enough to be a problem so
>> most would ignore them.
>>
> Well, this is possible.  the generated phase has a much higher impedance
> than the supplied
> single-phase mains.  If this IS the problem, a few big caps of the phase
> correction sort
> across all the L-L terminals might absorb enough of this to keep the
> protection circuits
> from tripping.  But, of course, the presumably modest Diesel generator
> would also have
> a somewhat higher impedance, and the drive ran fine on that.  So, I'm
> still thinking this
> is more likely to be a simple phase imbalance problem than a spike
> problem.  But,
> without knowing what sort of input protection gear this system has, it
> is impossible
> to know.  On the other hand, if the input module uses SCR phase-angle
> regulation,
> then phase imbalances would cause a HUGE problem as they screw up the
> commutation angles of the SCRs, and could easily overvolt the DC bus.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I'm going to put the 10hp back in and tune the phase converter using the 
Fitch method. I've never seen using a cap across A and B before. He uses 
both amps and volts to tune and the instructions are very good and seems 
worth a good try.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/FitchWConverter.pdf

Looking at his diagram is there a way to tell which is A B and C on the 
motor? does that translate to the wire numbers 1, 2 and 3? Is there a 
way to meter the wires to tell which is A, B and C?

I've noticed the different cap levels on the generated leg to try and 
balance the AC BC volts.

Thanks
John

On 5/25/2012 9:08 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> Ok, what I had been running was 4x60uf caps between 1 and 3 and 1x60uf
>> cap between 2 and 3 (generated leg on 3 then) and that seemed to work
>> the best.
>>
> You may just need to up these capacitors.
>> at the phase converter
>> to ground 1 = 120v, 2 = 120v, 3 = 226v
>> phase to phase 1 + 2 = 244v, 2 + 3 = 248v, 1 + 3 = 262v
>>
>>
> Ugh, 226 is WAY high.  With 120 on each half of the 240, you should have
> approximately 208 V to the generated phase.  if you have an equilateral
> triangle
> with the bas 240 units wide, the height should be 207.8 units.  (sin 60
> degrees
> * 240 = 207.8).  Or, measuring between all 3 lines should give equal
> voltages.
> Yours is not equal, again.  Your 1 - 3 voltage is quite a bit too high.
>
> Either increasing  the cap values or adjusting them to get better
> balance ought
> to help.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Gene,

The scope is a Tektronix 2232 if you can shed any light on how to 
capture two waves with it I'm all ears.

Thanks
John

On 5/24/2012 9:17 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 09:59:35 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> My research shows that a suitable single phase motor to drive a
>> generator does not exist above 7.5 hp and even at that level your
>> talking>1k. I assume it would take more than 7.5hp to drive a generator
>> capable of running a machine that size. So I really don't see this as an
>> option at this point.
>>
> I hadn't considered that aspect of it John, but I suspect you are 99.44%
> correct.
>
>> Heck I couldn't even figure out how to get 2 traces to show up much less
>> try for 3 on the scope. I even tried to join the teck forum but they
>> must have thought I was a spammer or they don't moderate it any more
> Not surprising.  The tektronix that existed in the 60's, was gone by the
> late 70's and its all been downhill since (IMO).
>
> Most tek scopes are at least dual trace, is that one a single trace?
>
> There are even 4 trace scopes out there, Hitachi makes a fine one.
>
> But in a pinch, set the camera on a tripod, hook the scope up, triggered by
> its internal line sample, then adjust the sweep speed to show about 1.5
> cycles and take a pix.  Move the probe to the next phase and take a pix,
> and finally to the 3rd phase and take another picture.  Then disconnect the
> probe as its not made for continuous duty at those voltages.
>
> Then, using the scopes face bezel as the registration, merge all 3 shots
> into one common image.  Since the scope is synched to its own supply, the
> phase differences can be measured from this merged image.  My guess is that
> the positive going slope of the 3 traces will not be equally spaced
> horizontally.  And it should be.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the Elk Park guys. After I go through tuning my 
10hp phase converter I'll give them a call on Wednesday (let the ones 
with read problems have Tuesday).

John

On 5/26/2012 7:28 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> If line filters are used that SIEMENS has not certified for use with
> SIMODRIVE
> 6SN11xx/6SLxx, this can result in harmonics being fed back into the line
> supply. These harmonics can damage/disturb other equipment connected to
> this line supply.<<
>
> What they are talking about here is that if you do not use Siemens certified 
> filters/reactors, that you can feed harmonics/noise back into the
> power line and damage/disturb other equipment on the same line.
>
> Oftentimes, in the US we ignore this stuff and forget about the line 
> filter/reactor at the input of the drive, but in the EU it is pretty much 
> mandatory that
> reactors be put on the drive inputs to avoid interference with nearby 
> equipment and other users.
>
> Andy or someone else, perhaps Dr. Mark, explained to me that in the UK they 
> have a 380 volt bus system that powers an entire street with one transformer 
> - so an unfiltered drive would thrown noise on everyone's power line on the 
> street.   In the US things are quite a bit different.  Many of us, and most 
> factories, have our own tranformers so that minimizes the ability for a drive 
> to screw with the neighbors power supply.
>
> That is the problem with Siemens manuals, they cram so much stuff in them 
> that is really not relevant to the situation, it can be hard to distinguish 
> what is relevant and what is not.
>
> I have some Siemens drive system manuals that are over 1000 pages long - 
> fortunately they are in PDF format otherwise they would look like phone books!
>
> If I were to guess, I think that your drive may be sensing phase inbalance 
> and tripping out on a phase loss error.   The Elk Grove guys might know a way 
> to get around that situation.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 5/26/2012 7:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Could this be part of the issue? chapter 7 harmonics bouncing back from
>> the caps in the rotary phase converter perhaps? so maybe a filter...
>> real early here so only partially awake
>>
>> John
>>
>> When the requirements regarding system fault level are observed and when
>> using the appropriate line supply filters, the harmonics fed back into
>> the line
>> supply lie below the compatibility level of Class 3 of the
>> electromagnetic environment
>> of industrial plants and systems according to EN61000–2–4:2002.
>> When the recommended SIEMENS line filter is used and the EMC mounting/
>> installation regulations are complied with, the noise emission limits
>> according to
>> EN50081–2 Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) – Generic Standard, Noise
>> Immunity/emission – Part 2: Industrial environments (1993) are complied
>> with.
>> Notice
>> If line filters are used that SIEMENS has not certified for use with
>> SIMODRIVE
>> 6SN11xx/6SLxx, this can result in harmonics being fed back into the line
>> supply. These harmonics can damage/disturb other equipment connected to
>> this line supply. Certification, e.g. CE is invalid.
>> Certificates from Siemens are invalid, for example CE , UL. You are
>> responsible
>> for generating/obtaining the certificates for this new combination.
>> It is not permissible to connect additional loads after the line filter
>>
>> On 5/25/2012 2:59 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>>
>>> On 25 May 2012 20:17, John Thorntonwrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The infeed unit is a 6SN1145-1BA00-0BA0
>>>>
>>> This looks like the manual.
>>> http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/llisapi.dll/csfetch/59401543/PJU_0212_en.pdf?func=cslib.csFetch&nodeid=60683460&forcedownload=true
>>>
>>> There is an interesting section about how to connect to various
>>> earthing styles. Which might be very relevant to your situation and
>>> the reactor.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I did manage to get two traces last night with a kick start from your 
instructions and lots of help from the IRC. At the end I figured out the 
two circuits I was monitoring was the same phase. I do feel that I can 
get a good trace now thanks to all of you guys help.

Thanks
John

On 5/26/2012 10:59 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> Gene,
>>
>> The scope is a Tektronix 2232 if you can shed any light on how to
>> capture two waves with it I'm all ears.
>>
> In the box labeled vertical, there is a mode switch, set it to "both".
> To the right, set the
> switch to "alt", it will alternate between the two channels.  Then, turn the
> position knobs until two lines are visible on the screen.  Set the
> individual
> attenuators to appropriate values, and the coupling selectors to AC or DC
> as needed.  If there are no malfunctions in the scope, that should do it.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Gene,

The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need balanced 
voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after their device. So 
I have to assume they are out there but so far my google only turns up 
descriptions of the beast.

John

On 5/27/2012 4:09 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> Now, here John, is another thought if my train of thought follows and this
> thing is hooked up delta on the outside, but is 3 individual loads to
> ground inside the kit, and which I can see objecting to the over voltages
> the phase converter generates,you might be very pleased with how it works
> IF you interpose a 3 phase transformer between your phase converter output
> and the supply to this kit.  Hook the input side up as a delta load,
> ignoring the center of the wye this idler motor has AND the center of the
> primary side wye (other than making sure, if it has individual bolts per
> phase, that they are connected together).
>
> Then ground to the machines neutral and effectively to ground, the center
> of the wye of this 3 phase 1/1 transformers secondary, and feed your kit
> with the outside 3 corners of the wye.  That should go a long ways to
> restore the "to ground" voltage balances.  The transformer will of course
> need to be rated at about 125% of the kits actual load.  And not having
> researched it, I'd have no clue as to the ready availability of such a
> beast.
>
> Doing a google search, I came across this:
>
> 
>
> which might make it a bit clearer than my word pictures.
>
> Cheers, Gene.

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I've been searching for "isolation transformer" but they all seem to be 
480 to 240 or similar. Not had any luck so far on finding a 240-240 
transformer.

John

On 5/28/2012 5:00 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Monday, May 28, 2012 05:46:09 AM andy pugh did opine:
>
>> On 28 May 2012 09:39, gene heskett  wrote:
>>> True, they just wind 3 sets of coils on a 3 legged core.  My suggested
>>> use was to convert the delta connected source with its 'wild leg'
>>> into a wye connected source that doesn't have the wild leg because
>>> the center of the wye is now connected to the neutral bus.
>> The manual that I linked to earlier in the threrad  (page 7/205
>> onwards) doesn't show any neutral connection to the infeed module.
>> however it does show a number of differing earth wiring options, some
>> of which include an autotransformer with earthed neutral point.
>>
>> What is interesting is that the infeed filters are earth-referenced,
>> and perhaps this is the problem. What earthing scheme would a rotary
>> converter actually match?
>>
> Exactly why I suggested the 3 phase 1/1 isolation transformer, to convert a
> circuit which is not well earth referenced, into one that is.
>
>> An interesting section is..
>> "TN-C-S, TN-C-C: Symmetrical 4–conductor or 5–conductor three–phase
>> line supply with
>> grounded neutral point with a protective and neutral conductor
>> connector connected
>> at the neutral point which, depending on the line supply type, uses one
>> or several conductors.
>> "For other line supply types 1) the NE module must be connected through
>> an isolating transformer."
>>
> Right there it is.  I would think the isolation transformer would fix it.
> This commonly used method of making 3 phase power does NOT have a grounded
> neutral point.
>
>> Which seems to very much tie in with what Gene is saying, unless, of
>> course, the Rotary converter itself counts as an autotransformer.
> It is essentially an auto transformer, it is NOT an isolation transformer.
> Autoformers as we call them do not isolate by definition.  It's all one
> winding (per phase) to step up or down.
>
>> I think that the converter provides an "IT" supply and that is shown
>> with an autotransformer in the diagrams.
> That could be for different reasons.  This isolation transformer, wired as
> I suggested, should restore the grounded neutral this kit needs.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

At least I know what an autotransformer is now after following your 
links... and a little google work.

"An autotransformer  is an electrical transformer with only one winding. 
The auto prefix refers to the single coil acting on itself rather than 
any automatic mechanism. In an autotransformer portions of the same 
winding act as both the primary and secondary. The winding has at least 
three taps where electrical connections are made. An autotransformer can 
be smaller, lighter and cheaper than a standard dual-winding transformer 
however the autotransformer does not provide electrical isolation."
On 5/28/2012 9:35 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 28 May 2012 13:26, John Thornton  wrote:
>> I've been searching for "isolation transformer" but they all seem to be
>> 480 to 240 or similar. Not had any luck so far on finding a 240-240
>> transformer.
> I think this is close, but isn't exactly 1:1
> http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/108e/0900766b8108e16d.pdf
> I am not too familiar with them, but I think it has the terminals needed.
>
> This one is definitely 1:1, but I am not at all clear what terminals it has..
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/auto-transformers/4368861/
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I spent the day swapping out the 15hp idler in the RPC for my 10hp idler 
(much quieter by far) and balancing the RPC per the directions in the 
Fitch pdf. I did notice that my Vac and Vbc was reversed from his chart 
no matter what I tried. In the end I had Vab 244, Vac 252, Vbc 252, Va 
122, Vb 122, Vc 212 with c being the generated leg.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/FitchWConverter.pdf

I did a test run and it would take a S3000 M3 without an error, above 
that it would error out. Then I remembered that I had the taps wrong on 
the step up transformer. I changed them from 208 to 240 and it would 
error out at S2000. I moved the taps to the 220 lugs but ran out of time 
to test it.

Just to recap a bit everything including the RPC is grounded to a common 
ground. The RPC does not have a neutral. The inputs to the machine are 3 
phase + ground. The only neutral in the machine is from the step down 
transformer for the 120vac circuits. The Simodrive 611 is grounded to 
the same common ground.

I won't have much time today but I'll try and test a few more things and 
gather up the part numbers and call the Siemens tech support line 
Wednesday to see what they say. I do have a small line reactor that I 
plan on hooking up just to scope what it might do. Line reactors are 
cheap compared to other options...

Thanks
John

On 5/28/2012 12:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> I've been searching for "isolation transformer" but they all seem to be
>> 480 to 240 or similar. Not had any luck so far on finding a 240-240
>> transformer.
>>
> Many dry transformers that do 480 - 240 can be restrapped for
> 240 -240.  Also, voltage adjusting transformers can often be
> set for 1:1 ratio.  Especially in the delta-wye use where a
> neutral needs to be derived from a delta substation.
>
> Still, I'm not sure this will solve your problem, if the phase
> converter is unbalanced.  I'd try to improve the balance first,
> before adding another half ton box to your shop.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

While laying on the floor to change taps yesterday on the step up 
transformer I noticed it says INPUT WYE. The transformer has 3 sets of 3 
lugs for input 208, 220, 240. The only other wires on the transformer 
are 3 lugs for 390v to the infeed unit and 3 lugs at 480v for the 
cooling pump. The step up transformer frame is grounded to the same 
place as everything else in the machine.

John

On 5/28/2012 8:34 PM, Dave wrote:
> Yes, many/most big servo drive systems that I have worked on use a Delta
> primary - Wye secondary with a grounded neutral.
>
> I think the grounded neutral on the Wye keeps the voltage in check on
> the drive capacitors from a line to ground standpoint.
>
> I've purchased this type of  transformer for a couple of different servo
> projects.  They tend to start at about 10 KVA and cost about $1200 at
> that size.
>
> I think I have a 6 KVA unit in my shop.  Hmm... come to think of it, I
> have used that transformer to power Siemens VFDs and Parker servo drives
> off of my rotary phase converter without any problems.
>
> If you were closer, I'd loan it to you.
>
> Delta primary, Wye secondary transformers are pretty common around
> here.   But many are sold  specifically as drive isolation transformers.
>
> You have a step up transformer in your machine right now though, prior
> to your Siemens 611U power input module (fancy DC power supply);   How
> is that wired?
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/28/2012 8:05 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Gene,
>>
>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need balanced
>> voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after their device. So
>> I have to assume they are out there but so far my google only turns up
>> descriptions of the beast.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/27/2012 4:09 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>
>>> Now, here John, is another thought if my train of thought follows and this
>>> thing is hooked up delta on the outside, but is 3 individual loads to
>>> ground inside the kit, and which I can see objecting to the over voltages
>>> the phase converter generates,you might be very pleased with how it works
>>> IF you interpose a 3 phase transformer between your phase converter output
>>> and the supply to this kit.  Hook the input side up as a delta load,
>>> ignoring the center of the wye this idler motor has AND the center of the
>>> primary side wye (other than making sure, if it has individual bolts per
>>> phase, that they are connected together).
>>>
>>> Then ground to the machines neutral and effectively to ground, the center
>>> of the wye of this 3 phase 1/1 transformers secondary, and feed your kit
>>> with the outside 3 corners of the wye.  That should go a long ways to
>>> restore the "to ground" voltage balances.  The transformer will of course
>>> need to be rated at about 125% of the kits actual load.  And not having
>>> researched it, I'd have no clue as to the ready availability of such a
>>> beast.
>>>
>>> Doing a google search, I came across this:
>>>
>>> <http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/xfmr-3ph.htm>
>>>
>>> which might make it a bit clearer than my word pictures.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene.
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] cutter radius compensation versus tool table data

[John Thornton]

Actually the docs should/will say Cutter Diameter Compensation to avoid 
that confusion. And yes your correct the radius is calculated from the 
diameter information to do the actual offsetting.

Do you have a link to the example that is confusing?

John

On 5/29/2012 2:13 AM, charles green wrote:
> i am confused about the treatment of the value used for cutter radius 
> compensation.  it looks like the examples in the documentation use a program 
> command to write a radius value in the tool table, but when i edit the tool 
> table from axis, there is a diameter value column.  are g41/42 using half 
> this diameter value when they are fed a D number?  or is the value in the D 
> column treated as a radius?  and G10 L1 P# Rr =>  D# = 2*r in the tool table? 
>  (i guess that's an easy experiment.)
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I filled out the quote form to see what they say.

John

On 5/28/2012 11:12 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Monday, May 28, 2012 11:53:29 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> Gene,
>>
>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need balanced
>> voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after their device. So
>> I have to assume they are out there but so far my google only turns up
>> descriptions of the beast.
>>
>> John
> These people have made transformers for me several times, at what I
> considered at the time to be great prices, considering it was usually
> needed yesterday if not before.  Dating back to 1985, none of the 3
> replacements they made me for that old GE transmitter has ever failed.
> Good stuff.
>
> <http://www.harbachelectronics.com/main/page_xfmr_quote.html>
>
> This is an arm of Peter Dahl, (or vice-versa) and their products use modern
> grain oriented steel laminations, which made their product more efficient
> by far than the 1950's style OEM transformer it was replacing AND about
> half the weight because of the improved efficiency.
>
> The most recent, and smallest one they made had about a 10kw rating, a
> plate transformer for the 5kw rated driver cabinet of a 35kw rated big box,
> came in the door at less than $2k at the time, and in only 10 days, which
> is now about 15 years back up the log.  How they might compete today, I
> have no clue, but they have been keeping broadcasters with old transmitters
> on the air for at least 50 years.
>
> I'd be interested in what your quote might be.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

There is no N connection on the transformer so I remain confused as well 
and I'm on my second cup of joe. I didn't measure the 390v to ground but 
I assume one leg is pretty high, but I can wander out and measure it 
easy enough.

John

On 5/29/2012 6:44 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 07:33:26 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> While laying on the floor to change taps yesterday on the step up
>> transformer I noticed it says INPUT WYE. The transformer has 3 sets of 3
>> lugs for input 208, 220, 240. The only other wires on the transformer
>> are 3 lugs for 390v to the infeed unit and 3 lugs at 480v for the
>> cooling pump. The step up transformer frame is grounded to the same
>> place as everything else in the machine.
>>
>> John
>>
> You said "INPUT WYE", but made no mention of a center N connection.  How
> can it be a WYE if there is not a neutral?  Perhaps I'm still a pint low on
> coffee?
>
> More to the point, what voltage do you actually measure, to ground, from
> those 390 volt points?
>
>> On 5/28/2012 8:34 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> Yes, many/most big servo drive systems that I have worked on use a
>>> Delta primary - Wye secondary with a grounded neutral.
>>>
>>> I think the grounded neutral on the Wye keeps the voltage in check on
>>> the drive capacitors from a line to ground standpoint.
>>>
>>> I've purchased this type of  transformer for a couple of different
>>> servo projects.  They tend to start at about 10 KVA and cost about
>>> $1200 at that size.
>>>
>>> I think I have a 6 KVA unit in my shop.  Hmm... come to think of it, I
>>> have used that transformer to power Siemens VFDs and Parker servo
>>> drives off of my rotary phase converter without any problems.
>>>
>>> If you were closer, I'd loan it to you.
>>>
>>> Delta primary, Wye secondary transformers are pretty common around
>>> here.   But many are sold  specifically as drive isolation
>>> transformers.
>>>
>>> You have a step up transformer in your machine right now though, prior
>>> to your Siemens 611U power input module (fancy DC power supply);   How
>>> is that wired?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 5/28/2012 8:05 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>>> Gene,
>>>>
>>>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need
>>>> balanced voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after
>>>> their device. So I have to assume they are out there but so far my
>>>> google only turns up descriptions of the beast.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On 5/27/2012 4:09 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> Now, here John, is another thought if my train of thought follows
>>>>> and this thing is hooked up delta on the outside, but is 3
>>>>> individual loads to ground inside the kit, and which I can see
>>>>> objecting to the over voltages the phase converter generates,you
>>>>> might be very pleased with how it works IF you interpose a 3 phase
>>>>> transformer between your phase converter output and the supply to
>>>>> this kit.  Hook the input side up as a delta load, ignoring the
>>>>> center of the wye this idler motor has AND the center of the
>>>>> primary side wye (other than making sure, if it has individual
>>>>> bolts per phase, that they are connected together).
>>>>>
>>>>> Then ground to the machines neutral and effectively to ground, the
>>>>> center of the wye of this 3 phase 1/1 transformers secondary, and
>>>>> feed your kit with the outside 3 corners of the wye.  That should
>>>>> go a long ways to restore the "to ground" voltage balances.  The
>>>>> transformer will of course need to be rated at about 125% of the
>>>>> kits actual load.  And not having researched it, I'd have no clue
>>>>> as to the ready availability of such a beast.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing a google search, I came across this:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/xfmr-3ph.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> which might make it a bit clearer than my word pictures.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Gene.
>>>> -
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Well I'll be a monkeys uncle, the step up transformer does have a N lug 
but nothing is connected to it.

Voltages at the drive input are
UV 525
UW 512
VW 508
Ug 225
Vg 225
Wg 370

John

On 5/29/2012 6:44 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 07:33:26 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> While laying on the floor to change taps yesterday on the step up
>> transformer I noticed it says INPUT WYE. The transformer has 3 sets of 3
>> lugs for input 208, 220, 240. The only other wires on the transformer
>> are 3 lugs for 390v to the infeed unit and 3 lugs at 480v for the
>> cooling pump. The step up transformer frame is grounded to the same
>> place as everything else in the machine.
>>
>> John
>>
> You said "INPUT WYE", but made no mention of a center N connection.  How
> can it be a WYE if there is not a neutral?  Perhaps I'm still a pint low on
> coffee?
>
> More to the point, what voltage do you actually measure, to ground, from
> those 390 volt points?
>
>> On 5/28/2012 8:34 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> Yes, many/most big servo drive systems that I have worked on use a
>>> Delta primary - Wye secondary with a grounded neutral.
>>>
>>> I think the grounded neutral on the Wye keeps the voltage in check on
>>> the drive capacitors from a line to ground standpoint.
>>>
>>> I've purchased this type of  transformer for a couple of different
>>> servo projects.  They tend to start at about 10 KVA and cost about
>>> $1200 at that size.
>>>
>>> I think I have a 6 KVA unit in my shop.  Hmm... come to think of it, I
>>> have used that transformer to power Siemens VFDs and Parker servo
>>> drives off of my rotary phase converter without any problems.
>>>
>>> If you were closer, I'd loan it to you.
>>>
>>> Delta primary, Wye secondary transformers are pretty common around
>>> here.   But many are sold  specifically as drive isolation
>>> transformers.
>>>
>>> You have a step up transformer in your machine right now though, prior
>>> to your Siemens 611U power input module (fancy DC power supply);   How
>>> is that wired?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 5/28/2012 8:05 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>>> Gene,
>>>>
>>>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need
>>>> balanced voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after
>>>> their device. So I have to assume they are out there but so far my
>>>> google only turns up descriptions of the beast.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On 5/27/2012 4:09 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> Now, here John, is another thought if my train of thought follows
>>>>> and this thing is hooked up delta on the outside, but is 3
>>>>> individual loads to ground inside the kit, and which I can see
>>>>> objecting to the over voltages the phase converter generates,you
>>>>> might be very pleased with how it works IF you interpose a 3 phase
>>>>> transformer between your phase converter output and the supply to
>>>>> this kit.  Hook the input side up as a delta load, ignoring the
>>>>> center of the wye this idler motor has AND the center of the
>>>>> primary side wye (other than making sure, if it has individual
>>>>> bolts per phase, that they are connected together).
>>>>>
>>>>> Then ground to the machines neutral and effectively to ground, the
>>>>> center of the wye of this 3 phase 1/1 transformers secondary, and
>>>>> feed your kit with the outside 3 corners of the wye.  That should
>>>>> go a long ways to restore the "to ground" voltage balances.  The
>>>>> transformer will of course need to be rated at about 125% of the
>>>>> kits actual load.  And not having researched it, I'd have no clue
>>>>> as to the ready availability of such a beast.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing a google search, I came across this:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/xfmr-3ph.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> which might make it a bit clearer than my word pictures.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Gene.
>>>> -
>>>> - Live Security Virtual Conference
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>>>> threat lan

Re: [Emc-users] cutter radius compensation versus tool table data

[John Thornton]

Yea, the tool table is diameter as well as all the G codes no matter if 
your in lathe mode or not.

John

On 5/29/2012 7:03 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 May 2012 12:30, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Actually the docs should/will say Cutter Diameter Compensation to avoid
>> that confusion.
> Even for a lathe?
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

It seems that phase perfect works together with

http://www.transformeronline.com/prices/threephasetransformer.htm

The have several sizes of 240 delta to 208 Y... how do you pick a size?

John

On 5/29/2012 7:09 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 07:48:08 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> I filled out the quote form to see what they say.
>>
>> John
>>
> Yes, thanks.
>
> I have another wild idea, your Vab, Vac, Vbc voltages would appear to be
> moderately well balanced, as they should be.  The generated C, measured to
> ground, is quite hot as is also expected.  So a set of readings to ground
> from the taps labeled 390 are the next bits of data I need to cogitate on.
>
> Hook the meter up cold with clip leads, than power up just long enough to
> take the reading of course, we sure don't need a fried John.
>
> I can personally testify that that is not a pleasant experience, and
> neither was the shingles it triggered.  If you survive the burns, they are
> a minor detail, but the shingles will recalibrate even a diabetics pain
> threshold, upward by about an order of magnitude.
>
>> On 5/28/2012 11:12 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 28, 2012 11:53:29 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>> Gene,
>>>>
>>>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need
>>>> balanced voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after
>>>> their device. So I have to assume they are out there but so far my
>>>> google only turns up descriptions of the beast.
>>>>
>>>> John
> Can they supply a suitably sized "matching" device?  It would seem to me
> they are missing the chance to make a higher profit if they did not do so.
> Not being able to supply a complete solution would not make business sense
> to me if I was PhasePerfect.  But I'm not, so...
>
>>> These people have made transformers for me several times, at what I
>>> considered at the time to be great prices, considering it was usually
>>> needed yesterday if not before.  Dating back to 1985, none of the 3
>>> replacements they made me for that old GE transmitter has ever failed.
>>> Good stuff.
>>>
>>> <http://www.harbachelectronics.com/main/page_xfmr_quote.html>
>>>
>>> This is an arm of Peter Dahl, (or vice-versa) and their products use
>>> modern grain oriented steel laminations, which made their product
>>> more efficient by far than the 1950's style OEM transformer it was
>>> replacing AND about half the weight because of the improved
>>> efficiency.
>>>
>>> The most recent, and smallest one they made had about a 10kw rating, a
>>> plate transformer for the 5kw rated driver cabinet of a 35kw rated big
>>> box, came in the door at less than $2k at the time, and in only 10
>>> days, which is now about 15 years back up the log.  How they might
>>> compete today, I have no clue, but they have been keeping
>>> broadcasters with old transmitters on the air for at least 50 years.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested in what your quote might be.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene
>> 
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>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] cutter radius compensation versus tool table data

[John Thornton]

Typically inserts used in a lathe have the nose radius measurement not 
the effective diameter. So for lathe tooling you have to double the nose 
radius to put an entry into the tool table. Also important for a lathe 
is the tool orientation...

Give the online docs about an hour to update and see if they are less 
confusing now.

John

On 5/29/2012 8:08 AM, charles green wrote:
> why should one linear axis have a metric that is 2x or 1/2x any of the 
> others, even on a lathe?
>
> --- On Tue, 5/29/12, andy pugh  wrote:
>
>> From: andy pugh
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] cutter radius compensation versus tool table data
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2012, 5:03 AM
>> On 29 May 2012 12:30, John Thornton
>> 
>> wrote:
>>> Actually the docs should/will say Cutter Diameter
>> Compensation to avoid
>>> that confusion.
>> Even for a lathe?
>>
>> -- 
>> atp
>> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

This is a shot of the stepup transformer. All the taps are for the input 
side... I kinda wondered about jacking with the hot leg but didn't try 
it. X goes to the infeed unit.

http://imagebin.org/214319

The nameplate just has FLA 50a and largest motor load 20a

John

On 5/29/2012 8:04 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 09:02:11 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> It seems that phase perfect works together with
>>
>> http://www.transformeronline.com/prices/threephasetransformer.htm
>>
>> The have several sizes of 240 delta to 208 Y... how do you pick a size?
>>
>> John
>>
> Is there a nameplate somewhere that quotes the maximum KVA of its draw?
> Then pick the next one up.
>
> Those prices look pretty good from here.
>
>> On 5/29/2012 7:09 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 07:48:08 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>> I filled out the quote form to see what they say.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>> Yes, thanks.
>>>
>>> I have another wild idea, your Vab, Vac, Vbc voltages would appear to
>>> be moderately well balanced, as they should be.  The generated C,
>>> measured to ground, is quite hot as is also expected.  So a set of
>>> readings to ground from the taps labeled 390 are the next bits of
>>> data I need to cogitate on.
>>>
>>> Hook the meter up cold with clip leads, than power up just long enough
>>> to take the reading of course, we sure don't need a fried John.
>>>
>>> I can personally testify that that is not a pleasant experience, and
>>> neither was the shingles it triggered.  If you survive the burns, they
>>> are a minor detail, but the shingles will recalibrate even a
>>> diabetics pain threshold, upward by about an order of magnitude.
>>>
>>>> On 5/28/2012 11:12 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, May 28, 2012 11:53:29 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>>>> Gene,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need
>>>>>> balanced voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after
>>>>>> their device. So I have to assume they are out there but so far my
>>>>>> google only turns up descriptions of the beast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>> Can they supply a suitably sized "matching" device?  It would seem to
>>> me they are missing the chance to make a higher profit if they did
>>> not do so. Not being able to supply a complete solution would not
>>> make business sense to me if I was PhasePerfect.  But I'm not, so...
>>>
>>>>> These people have made transformers for me several times, at what I
>>>>> considered at the time to be great prices, considering it was
>>>>> usually needed yesterday if not before.  Dating back to 1985, none
>>>>> of the 3 replacements they made me for that old GE transmitter has
>>>>> ever failed. Good stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.harbachelectronics.com/main/page_xfmr_quote.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an arm of Peter Dahl, (or vice-versa) and their products use
>>>>> modern grain oriented steel laminations, which made their product
>>>>> more efficient by far than the 1950's style OEM transformer it was
>>>>> replacing AND about half the weight because of the improved
>>>>> efficiency.
>>>>>
>>>>> The most recent, and smallest one they made had about a 10kw rating,
>>>>> a plate transformer for the 5kw rated driver cabinet of a 35kw
>>>>> rated big box, came in the door at less than $2k at the time, and
>>>>> in only 10 days, which is now about 15 years back up the log.  How
>>>>> they might compete today, I have no clue, but they have been
>>>>> keeping
>>>>> broadcasters with old transmitters on the air for at least 50 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be interested in what your quote might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Gene
>>>> -
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I assume that I should be able to see some resistance between N and H1, 
H2, and H3 if it is on the input side?

John

On 5/29/2012 9:18 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 May 2012 13:16, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Well I'll be a monkeys uncle, the step up transformer does have a N lug
>> but nothing is connected to it.
> Do you know if that is on the input or output side? (it should be
> possible to test with a multimeter)
>
> I seem to recall that some of the installation diagrams in the manual
> showed the input transformer neutral connected to ground.
>
> That transformer is likely to be an accessory for the US market. Euro
> 3-phase is 400+V. it might be that it can do double-duty as the
> matching transformer shown in the installation manual.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Nothing today within 750 miles of my location.

Found these in NY

http://www.ebay.com/itm/27kva-transformer-230v-230v-133v-3-phase-delta-wye-230-133-volt-240-scr-drive-l-/280824419312?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item41627093f0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30kva-transformer-240v-208v-120v-3-phase-delta-wye-volt-t0130-/280826678581?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item4162930d35

John

On 5/29/2012 9:06 AM, Dave wrote:
> Those prices are ok, but shipping from SD to your place might make them
> not such a good deal.
>
> I've bought some larger transformers off Ebay - I bought a Square D 150
> KVA Nema 1 floor mount for $500 a few years ago.  It looked like new.
>
> I had to drive 100 miles to get it but it was well worth the drive.
> Transformers are oftentimes slow movers on Ebay, so sometimes you can
> strike a good deal if the guy wants to sell
> in less than 6 months.
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/29/2012 9:04 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 09:02:11 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>
>>
>>> It seems that phase perfect works together with
>>>
>>> http://www.transformeronline.com/prices/threephasetransformer.htm
>>>
>>> The have several sizes of 240 delta to 208 Y... how do you pick a size?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>> Is there a nameplate somewhere that quotes the maximum KVA of its draw?
>> Then pick the next one up.
>>
>> Those prices look pretty good from here.
>>
>>
>>> On 5/29/2012 7:09 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 07:48:08 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>>
>>>>> I filled out the quote form to see what they say.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I have another wild idea, your Vab, Vac, Vbc voltages would appear to
>>>> be moderately well balanced, as they should be.  The generated C,
>>>> measured to ground, is quite hot as is also expected.  So a set of
>>>> readings to ground from the taps labeled 390 are the next bits of
>>>> data I need to cogitate on.
>>>>
>>>> Hook the meter up cold with clip leads, than power up just long enough
>>>> to take the reading of course, we sure don't need a fried John.
>>>>
>>>> I can personally testify that that is not a pleasant experience, and
>>>> neither was the shingles it triggered.  If you survive the burns, they
>>>> are a minor detail, but the shingles will recalibrate even a
>>>> diabetics pain threshold, upward by about an order of magnitude.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/28/2012 11:12 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, May 28, 2012 11:53:29 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gene,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The phaseperfect install guide did mention that when you need
>>>>>>> balanced voltage to ground to use a delta wye transformer after
>>>>>>> their device. So I have to assume they are out there but so far my
>>>>>>> google only turns up descriptions of the beast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>> Can they supply a suitably sized "matching" device?  It would seem to
>>>> me they are missing the chance to make a higher profit if they did
>>>> not do so. Not being able to supply a complete solution would not
>>>> make business sense to me if I was PhasePerfect.  But I'm not, so...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> These people have made transformers for me several times, at what I
>>>>>> considered at the time to be great prices, considering it was
>>>>>> usually needed yesterday if not before.  Dating back to 1985, none
>>>>>> of the 3 replacements they made me for that old GE transmitter has
>>>>>> ever failed. Good stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.harbachelectronics.com/main/page_xfmr_quote.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an arm of Peter Dahl, (or vice-versa) and their products use
>>>>>> modern grain oriented steel laminations, which made their product
>>>>>> more efficient by far than the 1950's style OEM transformer it was
>>>>>> replacing AND about half the weight because of the improved
>>>>>> efficiency.
>>>>>>

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

N reads 2.5m ohms to ground and 0 ohms to every other terminal on the board.

John

On 5/29/2012 9:18 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 May 2012 13:16, John Thornton  wrote:
>> Well I'll be a monkeys uncle, the step up transformer does have a N lug
>> but nothing is connected to it.
> Do you know if that is on the input or output side? (it should be
> possible to test with a multimeter)
>
> I seem to recall that some of the installation diagrams in the manual
> showed the input transformer neutral connected to ground.
>
> That transformer is likely to be an accessory for the US market. Euro
> 3-phase is 400+V. it might be that it can do double-duty as the
> matching transformer shown in the installation manual.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

N to each X is.1 ohm
X to X is .2 ohm

John

On 5/29/2012 9:57 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:39:54 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> This is a shot of the stepup transformer. All the taps are for the input
>> side... I kinda wondered about jacking with the hot leg but didn't try
>> it. X goes to the infeed unit.
>>
>> http://imagebin.org/214319
>>
>> The nameplate just has FLA 50a and largest motor load 20a
>>
>> John
>>
> That's a bit odd, so lets check one last thing,  cold, disconnect all 3 'X'
> wires, then measure for continuity from N ->  any X. and N ->  any H, and
> lets settle it as to whether this transformer actually isolates the
> important winding.
>
>> On 5/29/2012 8:04 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 09:02:11 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>> It seems that phase perfect works together with
>>>>
>>>> http://www.transformeronline.com/prices/threephasetransformer.htm
>>>>
>>>> The have several sizes of 240 delta to 208 Y... how do you pick a
>>>> size?
>>>>
> Humm 390 volts, assume 22 amps/phase, 390*66 is a hair over 25KVA, so 25 to
> 30 KVA should cover it.
>
>>>> John
>>> Is there a nameplate somewhere that quotes the maximum KVA of its
>>> draw? Then pick the next one up.
>>>
>>> Those prices look pretty good from here.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Where should the 208v be? The mains are 244vac.

John

On 5/29/2012 12:11 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> gene heskett wrote:
>> I have another wild idea, your Vab, Vac, Vbc voltages would appear to be
>> moderately well balanced, as they should be.  The generated C, measured to
>> ground, is quite hot as is also expected.
> Perfect should be 208 V, so 212 is quite close.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

When it trips it is so fast you can't see any change on the meter, if 
only I had an analog meter I could watch the needle swing.

John

On 5/29/2012 12:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> I spent the day swapping out the 15hp idler in the RPC for my 10hp idler
>> (much quieter by far) and balancing the RPC per the directions in the
>> Fitch pdf. I did notice that my Vac and Vbc was reversed from his chart
>> no matter what I tried. In the end I had Vab 244, Vac 252, Vbc 252, Va
>> 122, Vb 122, Vc 212 with c being the generated leg.
>>
> Well, this is a LOT closer to perfect.
>> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/FitchWConverter.pdf
>>
>> I did a test run and it would take a S3000 M3 without an error, above
>> that it would error out. Then I remembered that I had the taps wrong on
>> the step up transformer. I changed them from 208 to 240 and it would
>> error out at S2000. I moved the taps to the 220 lugs but ran out of time
>> to test it.
>>
> Well, you need to have the meter set up and see what happens to the
> voltages when it
> is near the tripping point.  If the voltages are shifting during spindle
> start-up, especially
> the generated leg is sagging, then you may need a bigger idler motor, or
> possibly
> the caps need to be optimized for the high-load condition, not the idle
> condition.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

The spindle drive is 6,000 rpm.

I've not tried tap hopping yet... any downside to that?

John

On 5/29/2012 12:17 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 01:05:21 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> N to each X is.1 ohm
>> X to X is .2 ohm
> Damn, another good what if shot to hell. I hate it when that happens. :(
>
> So, we're probably back to an about 30 KVA isolation transformer.
>
> Has Siemens offered any advice yet?
>
> How about the 2 wires U,V on 208 lugs, the third one, W IIRC, on a 220 or
> 240 lug that test I mentioned?
>
> Also, what is the paper rated top speed on this drive?
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I don't have a pole can... I live out in the woods and all the services 
are underground and I'm serviced with a pad mounted transformer that 
only feeds my house and shop. I have a 200 amp service that is split 
between my house and the shop and both have 200 amp panels with proper 
size wire. I can spin up my lathe 5.5Kw spindle from 0-6,000 while the 
mill is running and never have I seen the lights dim, well when I ran 
the garage from some direct bury 10ga I could make the lights dim but 
not since I built the shop and installed proper wiring.

Is the encoder disk problem one of cam or cad?

John

On 5/29/2012 2:45 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 03:10:01 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> Where should the 208v be? The mains are 244vac.
>>
> That means your wall socket voltage is about 122.  Using the same math in
> kcalc, I get 211.310198523, but the meter will be great if it actually
> displays the .3. :)
>
> The math is simple enough, sin(120)*voltage, where the 120 is the phase
> angle under ideal conditions.  FWIW sin(120) and sin(60) return exactly the
> same value because the sin is mirrored around modulo 90 degrees where it is
> 1.0, and is zero at 0 and 180 degrees.
>
> That is just about 1 step on the taps of your service pole can.  The
> substation regulators can usually do finer work.  That pole can, from the
> looks of this, should be able to feed your place with at least 25kw in
> order to be adequately 'stiff' enough for this level of load variations.
> I was bumping the 4 or 5 houses on my can just enough that my eyes could
> see it, so both the bigger bandsaw, and my 6" delta jointer (the one I
> trimmed my fingernails with) are now reconfigured for a 250 volt single
> phase feed.  I don't even see the lights in the shop dim now.  Its 6 gage
> buried range-like cable back to the 200 amp house service, nice and stiff.
> :)  My AC has a 2.5 horse 127v motor on it and I need to do it the same
> way.
>
> Got a summer thunderboomer moving thru, noisy outside, but I am tempted to
> go setup the mill and see if I can make another encoder disk for the lathe.
> I have some thinner material now, salvaged from the color panel in the
> front door of a dishwasher that failed, black but I'll have to magnet test
> it to see if its ferrous, that if plastic I maybe can carve with a pcb
> drill for a mill.  And I need to modify that code a bit so there is no
> width discontinuity for the long slot that is the index pulse.
>
> I may have to hit up Andy up for some math help because I don't think that
> code compensates for the mill radius when it tapers smaller at the inside
> radii of the slots.  I get the impression that the taper it uses needs a /2
> in order to aim the side of the carved slot directly at the center of the
> circle.
>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/29/2012 12:11 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> gene heskett wrote:
>>>> I have another wild idea, your Vab, Vac, Vbc voltages would appear to
>>>> be moderately well balanced, as they should be.  The generated C,
>>>> measured to ground, is quite hot as is also expected.
>>> Perfect should be 208 V, so 212 is quite close.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
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> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Yes, after running the generator on the 208 taps I forgot they were on 
there when I did my phase converter work over. Today I plan on trying to 
contact Siemens tech support and see if they can offer up some advice.

I'm located in swamp east Missouri...

John

On 5/29/2012 2:55 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 03:46:29 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> The spindle drive is 6,000 rpm.
>>
>> I've not tried tap hopping yet... any downside to that?
>>
>> John
>
> I think the trip off will tell you that.  So far, IIRC, you've managed to
> hit half speed, and when you lowered it by choosing the higher tap on the H
> terminals, it got worse.  That tells me it needs to go up by feeding it on
> the 208 taps.
>
> I've lost track, have you tried all of them on the 208 taps yet?
>
> Basically if it still trips then, the isolation transformer you order
> should also be able to do a 10-15% step up I'm thinking.  Feed it on the
> 208 taps, and load it on the 220 taps perhaps.
>
> Where are you John?  I'm wondering how long a drive it might be to check
> your beer supply. :)
>
>
>> On 5/29/2012 12:17 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 01:05:21 PM John Thornton did opine:
>>>> N to each X is.1 ohm
>>>> X to X is .2 ohm
>>> Damn, another good what if shot to hell. I hate it when that happens.
>>> :(
>>>
>>> So, we're probably back to an about 30 KVA isolation transformer.
>>>
>>> Has Siemens offered any advice yet?
>>>
>>> How about the 2 wires U,V on 208 lugs, the third one, W IIRC, on a 220
>>> or 240 lug that test I mentioned?
>>>
>>> Also, what is the paper rated top speed on this drive?
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene
>> 
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> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

The largest motor on the VMC is 20 amps so the name plate says... and I 
assume that is the spindle servo.

John

On 5/29/2012 9:34 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> gene heskett wrote:
>> So, we're probably back to an about 30 KVA isolation transformer.
>>
>>
> Oh, MY!  If he needs a 30 KVA transformer, then he probably needs a 40 HP
> idler motor.  And, that will draw about 130 Amps from the 240 V mains,
> mostly inductive power factor.  This keeps getting worse!
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Phase to phase currently is A-B=244, A-C=253, B-C=253 with A and B are 
the mains and C the generated leg. From what I gather reading about RPC 
you won't get A-C and B-C to be the same as A-B and they will be higher. 
Best case seems to be getting A-C = B-C from what I read and getting the 
amps as low as possible on L1.

John

On 5/29/2012 9:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> Where should the 208v be? The mains are 244vac.
>>
> If you measure from the mains neutral (which is NOT the center point
> of the 3-phase system) to the generated leg, it should be about 208 Volts.
>
> The three-phase system is an equilateral triangle, with each side 240 V.
> The neutral is the center of the bottom side, the 240 V mains are
> the left and right corner of the bottom.  The generated line is the top
> of the triangle.
> So, if you cut it in half vertically, you have two 30/60/90 degree
> triangles,
> with the 90 degree angles against each other.  The left and right
> sides of the big triangle are also 240 V.  So, the hypotenuse of the
> 30/60/90 triangles are 240, the base is 120.  sin (60) * 240 =
> 207.8
>
> So, that's where the 208 comes from.  If your mains are actually
> 244 V, then neutral to L3 would be 211.3 V.
>
> But, you really should not be measuring from the mains neutral, as
> that is not germane to the 3-phase system.  Just measure from each
> line to another.  You should get 240 on each one.  I have not
> derived the math on this, but I am pretty sure that it is impossible to
> have 240 V from each line to another and have the phase angles
> wrong.  So, if the voltages read balanced, the phase angles ALSO
> have to be correct.
>
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

The spindle only trips during acceleration and that is a short duration 
of time. When monitoring the DC buss with the Fluke meter it is rock 
steady at 600-601 up to the point the drive shuts down.

I just discovered last night that my neighbor is a wiz at running a 
scope and he said wow you have a Tek 2232 that was my favorite scope you 
can do anything with that one. So I will try and get him to store a 
trace of the power when I accelerate so we can have more information on 
that. In the mean time I'll try and watch the meter to see if I can see 
anything going from 0-2000.

John

On 5/29/2012 9:53 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> When it trips it is so fast you can't see any change on the meter, if
>> only I had an analog meter I could watch the needle swing.
>>
> Right, that's why I was suggesting making the spindle accelerate to just
> less than what
> causes it to trip.  I assume the spindle takes a second or so to spin up
> to 2000 RPM.
> That should be enough to detect a voltage dip (or surge).  You say the
> DC bus
> does NOT fluctuate when it trips, is that right?
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Right now the 10hp RPC is adjusted with the caps without a load to give 
me A-B=244, A-C=253, B-C=253. As I understand it that is about as good 
as you can expect from a RPC. I still need to check it under load and 
perhaps the idea from the past about having an Ardunio or something 
switch in some more caps when the load increases has some merit.

John

On 5/29/2012 10:24 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 11:04:48 PM Jon Elson did opine:
>
>> John Thornton wrote:
>>> Where should the 208v be? The mains are 244vac.
>> If you measure from the mains neutral (which is NOT the center point
>> of the 3-phase system) to the generated leg, it should be about 208
>> Volts.
>>
>> The three-phase system is an equilateral triangle, with each side 240 V.
>> The neutral is the center of the bottom side, the 240 V mains are
>> the left and right corner of the bottom.  The generated line is the top
>> of the triangle.
>> So, if you cut it in half vertically, you have two 30/60/90 degree
>> triangles,
>> with the 90 degree angles against each other.  The left and right
>> sides of the big triangle are also 240 V.  So, the hypotenuse of the
>> 30/60/90 triangles are 240, the base is 120.  sin (60) * 240 =
>> 207.8
>>
>> So, that's where the 208 comes from.  If your mains are actually
>> 244 V, then neutral to L3 would be 211.3 V.
>>
>> But, you really should not be measuring from the mains neutral, as
>> that is not germane to the 3-phase system.  Just measure from each
>> line to another.  You should get 240 on each one.
> Neglecting ohmic losses, if all 3 phases read within 2 or 3 %, A/B, B/C,
> C/A, then the generated phases absolutely have to be within 10 degrees of
> 120 degrees when referenced to either of the other combo's.
>
> So basically, adjust the capacitor sizes, under load, so that the A/C
> voltage is very close to the B/C voltage, and the phases have to be "close
> enough for the girls we go with."  Larger capacitors, ISTR tend to reduce
> the load sensitivity, but there could well be a way to overdo that.
>
>> I have not
>> derived the math on this, but I am pretty sure that it is impossible to
>> have 240 V from each line to another and have the phase angles
>> wrong.  So, if the voltages read balanced, the phase angles ALSO
>> have to be correct.
> Yes.
>> Jon
>>
>> 
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> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Neat!, but a different wiz...

John

On 5/30/2012 6:49 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 May 2012 12:26, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> I just discovered last night that my neighbor is a wiz at running a
>> scope
> This Wiz?
> http://www.eeggs.com/items/11778.html
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Hi Dennis,

I have a 2.5" diameter facing mill that I use and I don't notice any 
difference when using that. My machine lights do not dim during 
acceleration which I assume is a good thing. I'm in the same canoe as 
you with 240v single phase my only option to work with.

Before all the experiments I could get 0 to 2k with no problems and 
would structure my programs around that or use the G4 pause and ramp up 
to the rpm I wanted above 2k.

I too modified my program using a pause between S values but only had to 
do that going up in rpm. From 6k to 0 I've never had a fault.

The resistor/capacitor would be a low cost experiment. How do you 
calculate what the values are for the resistor and the cap? Did you put 
the resistor in series with one of the control lines? Does the cap 
connect to the upstream side or the downstream side of the resistor? 
Maybe a stick drawing would help me understand...

John

On 5/30/2012 7:05 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> I am helping Dennis out and reposting his message to mailing list:
> ==
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have been following this thread and want to put in my 2 cents.  I
> had the same issue as John with my Bridgeport Interact 412-V.  It's
> spindle is similar to John's: 7.5kW 60-6000RPM.  My rotary phase
> converter is also similar to John's: 15HP TEFC with start and run
> caps; legs are balanced within a few volts phase-phase.
>
> When I set the spindle RPM to 6k and performed an M03, the mains would
> dip in voltage and the halogen light powered by the machine would get
> dimmer.  The power meter for the spindle would peg at 180% of load as
> it was starting.  The same occurred when stopping the spindle but the
> halogen machine light would get bright as the spindle dumped the load
> back into the grid.  In each case I would get a voltage fault and for
> my machine this was a critical error.  Rebooting every time I started
> or stopped the spindle just would not do.
>
> Also want to interject that a loaded spindle may be worse.  John, can
> you get to 2500RPM consistently?  Try putting a heavy tool in the
> spindle - like a 5-10 pound boring head or something.  Will it trip
> out below 3k RPM?  Is it spindle load related?
>
> The thing I noticed was the dimming and brightening of the machine
> light.  This told me there was too much impedance between the VMC and
> the AC mains, i.e. the rotary phase converter.  If bolted directly to
> 208V 3-phase this would not occur.  Even though there is a 30A 3-pole
> breaker in the panel (with 3-phase), you are connected to a
> transformer that can supply 200A+ so the impedance is very low and
> voltages tend not to bounce around much.  But I have single phase 240V
> in my garage so I had to make this work.
>
> I started experimenting and modifying my programs to work around the
> problem: step from 0-2k RPM, wait a bit, step from 2k to 4k RPM, wait
> a bit then up to 6k RPM.  Same with stopping the spindle.  My
> machine's memory is only 3.5k so this was cutting into my program
> storage and it was a pain.  I dug through the machine schematics and
> found the spindle control signal was an analog 0-10V line.  If I
> slowed the ramp up and ramp down command to the spindle controller it
> would perform the same function as gradually changing the RPM in code.
>   I cut the 10V command line and inserted ~ 4.7k resistor in series.
> On the spindle controller side I put something like a 10uF capacitor
> to ground.  This creates a low pass filter so fast transients like a
> 0-10V command to "get going" take a few seconds to actually make it to
> 6k RPM.  The same with changing the voltage from 10V to 0 - it takes a
> few seconds for the command to reach it's final value.  That did it!!
> Now my halogen machine light stays at a constant brightness through
> spindle acceleration and deceleration.
>
> John, I think I also read if jogging too fast with one axis your
> machine would trip.  Don't remember what axis this was but on my
> machine the head is pretty heavy and the Z-axis servo should pull more
> current than the others if it does.  I never had a jogging/voltage
> trip but you may want to look at rewiring the power circuit for the
> servo amplifiers to use the lower impedance 240V legs of your rotary
> phase converter.  The servo amps may also be single phase within your
> machine but still on the machine side of the reactor and input
> transformer to make the machine work with universal voltage inputs.
> Does not mean it cannot be rewired.
>
> My fix was a few cents worth of parts to modify the CNC.  Took less
> room than a 50kVA transformer and I still think the wild leg of the
> 15HP rotary phase converter will still move around even though there
> is a delta-wye transformer in between.  That is a lot of money and
> effort to be experimenting with.
>
>
> Dennis
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

A subroutine using a coordinate system rotate might be the simplest 
method. Establish the center of your disk as X and Y0 and do a G10 L2 R 
between slots. Something like the following  partly tested code should 
do the trick.

Position tool at safe point
# = 0
G10 L2 P1 R# (just to make sure in case of an abort)
o100 repeat [45]
Position tool at start of cut
Slot cutting
Position tool at safe Z
G0 X0 Y0
# = [# + 8]
G10 L2 P1 R#
o100 endrepeat
M2


On 5/30/2012 6:59 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 07:15:28 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> I don't have a pole can... I live out in the woods and all the services
>> are underground and I'm serviced with a pad mounted transformer that
>> only feeds my house and shop. I have a 200 amp service that is split
>> between my house and the shop and both have 200 amp panels with proper
>> size wire. I can spin up my lathe 5.5Kw spindle from 0-6,000 while the
>> mill is running and never have I seen the lights dim, well when I ran
>> the garage from some direct bury 10ga I could make the lights dim but
>> not since I built the shop and installed proper wiring.
> Sounds good.  It also means the power folks can access the can for tap
> changes a lot easier.  But if its buried, where is the high side
> disconnect? That would need to be done cold.
>
>> Is the encoder disk problem one of cam or cad?
>>
>> John
> Lack of the ability to preview the result, I have never been able to get
> usable resolution out of openscam.  Using a #58 pcb drill as a mill, my
> speed&  depth of cut per pass capability suffers, so it take about an hour
> and a half to make one test disk.  With the smaller bit, I took the slot
> count up to 47 from 39, but while the quadrature is usable, its not an even
> duty cycle, so I need to figure out if I need narrower or wider slots, plus
> the center hole math needs tweaked to account for the bit radii, with the
> smaller bit, the hole got very sloppy so that code piece needs tweaked.
> Compounded by the thinner material being able to fit into the thread on the
> spindle tail where I am trapping it between the bearing preload adjusting
> nuts.  The 1/16" thick brass didn't suffer from that as those threads are
> about 16 tpi there.
>
> Plus I noted that somehow, in the loop that cuts the slots, which because
> of the fragility of that size bit, is a 9 pass loop, cutting about 3.5 thou
> deeper per pass, but I seem not to have properly restored some starting
> value for the 2nd&  subsequent passes, I can see in the backplot that the
> length of the slot changes by about a thou on each end of the slots.  I've
> printed the code so I can study it better, but I am thinking my next change
> will be to make a common subroutine that takes the current angle as an
> argument.  As is, that math is scattered in about 4 places&  I've obviously
> an error in one of them.  That, and turn the index pulse cut into an
> extension of the first cut when the angle is 360.  Some sort of a
> conditional there because I now have a slightly wider index pulse than is
> needed.
>
> This material I'm using this time came from a dishwashers door insert,
> which when I looked, turned out to be two layers of 17 thou thick alu,
> painted both sides so you can have your choice of black, white, or almond.
> So I have enough to make quite a few. :)
>
> Time, as long as I'm still sucking air regularly, is something I have.
> Other than an occasional bout of loading the dishwasher, getting Dee
> whatever she wants to eat&  about 6 hours a week beating back the jungle, I
> am not otherwise occupied.  ;-)
>
>> On 5/29/2012 2:45 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 03:10:01 PM John Thornton did opine:
>>>> Where should the 208v be? The mains are 244vac.
>>> That means your wall socket voltage is about 122.  Using the same math
>>> in kcalc, I get 211.310198523, but the meter will be great if it
>>> actually displays the .3. :)
>>>
>>> The math is simple enough, sin(120)*voltage, where the 120 is the
>>> phase angle under ideal conditions.  FWIW sin(120) and sin(60) return
>>> exactly the same value because the sin is mirrored around modulo 90
>>> degrees where it is 1.0, and is zero at 0 and 180 degrees.
>>>
>>> That is just about 1 step on the taps of your service pole can.  The
>>> substation regulators can usually do finer work.  That pole can, from
>>> the looks of this, should be able to feed your place with at least
>>> 25kw in order to be adequately 'stiff' enough for this level of load
>>> variations. I was bumping the 4 or 5 houses on my 

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Only on a LinuxCNC machine will that work... this one is still the DX32 
control.

John

On 5/30/2012 8:07 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 May 2012 13:45, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> Before all the experiments I could get 0 to 2k with no problems and
>> would structure my programs around that or use the G4 pause and ramp up
>> to the rpm I wanted above 2k.
> net motion.spindle-speed-out =>  limit2.in ?
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Thanks Alex

John

On 5/30/2012 7:55 AM, Alex Joni wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
>
> from there:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RC_Series_Filter_(with_V%26I_Labels).svg
>
> and the response:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Series_RC_capacitor_voltage.svg
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>
>
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "John Thornton"
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor
>
>
>> Hi Dennis,
>>
>> I have a 2.5" diameter facing mill that I use and I don't notice any
>> difference when using that. My machine lights do not dim during
>> acceleration which I assume is a good thing. I'm in the same canoe as
>> you with 240v single phase my only option to work with.
>>
>> Before all the experiments I could get 0 to 2k with no problems and
>> would structure my programs around that or use the G4 pause and ramp up
>> to the rpm I wanted above 2k.
>>
>> I too modified my program using a pause between S values but only had to
>> do that going up in rpm. From 6k to 0 I've never had a fault.
>>
>> The resistor/capacitor would be a low cost experiment. How do you
>> calculate what the values are for the resistor and the cap? Did you put
>> the resistor in series with one of the control lines? Does the cap
>> connect to the upstream side or the downstream side of the resistor?
>> Maybe a stick drawing would help me understand...
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/30/2012 7:05 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>>> I am helping Dennis out and reposting his message to mailing list:
>>> ==
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I have been following this thread and want to put in my 2 cents.  I
>>> had the same issue as John with my Bridgeport Interact 412-V.  It's
>>> spindle is similar to John's: 7.5kW 60-6000RPM.  My rotary phase
>>> converter is also similar to John's: 15HP TEFC with start and run
>>> caps; legs are balanced within a few volts phase-phase.
>>>
>>> When I set the spindle RPM to 6k and performed an M03, the mains would
>>> dip in voltage and the halogen light powered by the machine would get
>>> dimmer.  The power meter for the spindle would peg at 180% of load as
>>> it was starting.  The same occurred when stopping the spindle but the
>>> halogen machine light would get bright as the spindle dumped the load
>>> back into the grid.  In each case I would get a voltage fault and for
>>> my machine this was a critical error.  Rebooting every time I started
>>> or stopped the spindle just would not do.
>>>
>>> Also want to interject that a loaded spindle may be worse.  John, can
>>> you get to 2500RPM consistently?  Try putting a heavy tool in the
>>> spindle - like a 5-10 pound boring head or something.  Will it trip
>>> out below 3k RPM?  Is it spindle load related?
>>>
>>> The thing I noticed was the dimming and brightening of the machine
>>> light.  This told me there was too much impedance between the VMC and
>>> the AC mains, i.e. the rotary phase converter.  If bolted directly to
>>> 208V 3-phase this would not occur.  Even though there is a 30A 3-pole
>>> breaker in the panel (with 3-phase), you are connected to a
>>> transformer that can supply 200A+ so the impedance is very low and
>>> voltages tend not to bounce around much.  But I have single phase 240V
>>> in my garage so I had to make this work.
>>>
>>> I started experimenting and modifying my programs to work around the
>>> problem: step from 0-2k RPM, wait a bit, step from 2k to 4k RPM, wait
>>> a bit then up to 6k RPM.  Same with stopping the spindle.  My
>>> machine's memory is only 3.5k so this was cutting into my program
>>> storage and it was a pain.  I dug through the machine schematics and
>>> found the spindle control signal was an analog 0-10V line.  If I
>>> slowed the ramp up and ramp down command to the spindle controller it
>>> would perform the same function as gradually changing the RPM in code.
>>>I cut the 10V command line and inserted ~ 4.7k resistor in series.
>>> On the spindle controller side I put something like a 10uF capacitor
>>> to ground.  This creates a low pass filter so fast transients like a
>>> 0-10V command to "get going" take a few seconds to actually make it to
>>> 6k RPM.  The s

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Dave and everyone who has been following this,

I just got off the phone with Siemens tech support and "Our systems 
don't run well on phase converters." was the main theme of the 
conversation as well as we can't run on a Delta system because we need 
the ground reference I think he said.

Additionally he suggested a Delta to WYE step up transformer with 
grounded secondaries between the RPC and the 611.

John

On 5/30/2012 8:27 AM, Dave wrote:
> Around here (Indiana) they put the HV disconnect on the pole that feeds
> the underground line that runs to a pad mount tranformer.
>
> That way if a short develops in HV feed to the pad transformer, the
> switch/breaker kicks out.
>
> I always figure about 1 KW per HP, but with these more efficient motors
> these days it is oftentimes more like .9 KW per HP for bigger motors.
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/30/2012 7:59 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 07:15:28 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>
>>
>>> I don't have a pole can... I live out in the woods and all the services
>>> are underground and I'm serviced with a pad mounted transformer that
>>> only feeds my house and shop. I have a 200 amp service that is split
>>> between my house and the shop and both have 200 amp panels with proper
>>> size wire. I can spin up my lathe 5.5Kw spindle from 0-6,000 while the
>>> mill is running and never have I seen the lights dim, well when I ran
>>> the garage from some direct bury 10ga I could make the lights dim but
>>> not since I built the shop and installed proper wiring.
>>>
>> Sounds good.  It also means the power folks can access the can for tap
>> changes a lot easier.  But if its buried, where is the high side
>> disconnect? That would need to be done cold.
>>
>>
>>> Is the encoder disk problem one of cam or cad?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>> Lack of the ability to preview the result, I have never been able to get
>> usable resolution out of openscam.  Using a #58 pcb drill as a mill, my
>> speed&   depth of cut per pass capability suffers, so it take about an hour
>> and a half to make one test disk.  With the smaller bit, I took the slot
>> count up to 47 from 39, but while the quadrature is usable, its not an even
>> duty cycle, so I need to figure out if I need narrower or wider slots, plus
>> the center hole math needs tweaked to account for the bit radii, with the
>> smaller bit, the hole got very sloppy so that code piece needs tweaked.
>> Compounded by the thinner material being able to fit into the thread on the
>> spindle tail where I am trapping it between the bearing preload adjusting
>> nuts.  The 1/16" thick brass didn't suffer from that as those threads are
>> about 16 tpi there.
>>
>> Plus I noted that somehow, in the loop that cuts the slots, which because
>> of the fragility of that size bit, is a 9 pass loop, cutting about 3.5 thou
>> deeper per pass, but I seem not to have properly restored some starting
>> value for the 2nd&   subsequent passes, I can see in the backplot that the
>> length of the slot changes by about a thou on each end of the slots.  I've
>> printed the code so I can study it better, but I am thinking my next change
>> will be to make a common subroutine that takes the current angle as an
>> argument.  As is, that math is scattered in about 4 places&   I've obviously
>> an error in one of them.  That, and turn the index pulse cut into an
>> extension of the first cut when the angle is 360.  Some sort of a
>> conditional there because I now have a slightly wider index pulse than is
>> needed.
>>
>> This material I'm using this time came from a dishwashers door insert,
>> which when I looked, turned out to be two layers of 17 thou thick alu,
>> painted both sides so you can have your choice of black, white, or almond.
>> So I have enough to make quite a few. :)
>>
>> Time, as long as I'm still sucking air regularly, is something I have.
>> Other than an occasional bout of loading the dishwasher, getting Dee
>> whatever she wants to eat&   about 6 hours a week beating back the jungle, I
>> am not otherwise occupied.  ;-)
>>
>>
>>> On 5/29/2012 2:45 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 03:10:01 PM John Thornton did opine:
>>>>
>>>>> Where should the 208v be? The mains are 244vac.
>>>>>
>>>> That means your wall socket voltage is about 122.  Using the same math
>>>> in kcalc, I get 211.310198523, but the meter will be great if it

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

The stepup transformer as far as I can tell is a WYE input autotransformer.

I'm guessing at this point I'll start looking for a delta to WYE 
transformer with a grounded secondary or pick up a 3 phase generator. A 
small thing I discovered today while messing about is the 611 will run 
the spindle up higher when my old Samson 3 phase manual lathe spindle is 
on... it's about a 7.5hp spindle motor on it.

John

On 5/30/2012 11:15 AM, Dave wrote:
> "Our systems don't run well on phase converters."
>
> They didn't have any suggestions to make it run better via tweaks to the 611 
> ??Perhaps none are available.
>
> I bet that drive is going into shutdown mode based on safety shutdown
> circuits - loss of phase, etc.
>
> Siemens does an excellent job of building in protection for their drives
> - as I think you are finding out.
>
> I had a bad axis motor on my lathe that was full of water (literally).
> The lathe sat outside in a rainstorm before I got it and somehow water
> got into
> the Siemens Z axis motor.   I actually ran the motor off the 611 drive
> with water in the motor (older than yours) for a while but it would
> fault out periodically.   I simply kept resetting the
> drive until it would no longer reset.  I bought a new-old stock motor
> since I thought the motor was bad, and when I took the old motor off the
> machine, water poured out at the drive shaft.  At least a few cups of it.
> People at the shop still talk about how that motor ran even when it had
> water in it.Crazy.
> The 611 drive was not damaged through all of that.  But the motor was
> junk - internal corrosion etc.
>
>   >>as well as we can't run on a Delta system because we need
>
> the ground reference I think he said.<<
>
> Yes, they really want a grounded Wye supply on the infeed side.
>
>>> Additionally he suggested a Delta to WYE step up transformer with
> grounded secondaries between the RPC and the 611.<<
>
> That has worked for me on a Parker Servo drive system, Siemens VFDs, an a 
> Italian servo drive (forgot the brand).
>
> Siemens also recommends a grounded Wye supply for their VFDs, but they built 
> provisions into the newer VFDs so they can run off a Delta supply.
>
> H...
>
> What are you going to do next?
>
> Perhaps I missed something;  Did you figure out if that transformer in your 
> machine is a Delta-Wye transformer or not?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> On 5/30/2012 11:26 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Dave and everyone who has been following this,
>>
>> I just got off the phone with Siemens tech support and "Our systems
>> don't run well on phase converters." was the main theme of the
>> conversation as well as we can't run on a Delta system because we need
>> the ground reference I think he said.
>>
>> Additionally he suggested a Delta to WYE step up transformer with
>> grounded secondaries between the RPC and the 611.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/30/2012 8:27 AM, Dave wrote:
>>
>>> Around here (Indiana) they put the HV disconnect on the pole that feeds
>>> the underground line that runs to a pad mount tranformer.
>>>
>>> That way if a short develops in HV feed to the pad transformer, the
>>> switch/breaker kicks out.
>>>
>>> I always figure about 1 KW per HP, but with these more efficient motors
>>> these days it is oftentimes more like .9 KW per HP for bigger motors.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 5/30/2012 7:59 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 07:15:28 AM John Thornton did opine:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a pole can... I live out in the woods and all the services
>>>>> are underground and I'm serviced with a pad mounted transformer that
>>>>> only feeds my house and shop. I have a 200 amp service that is split
>>>>> between my house and the shop and both have 200 amp panels with proper
>>>>> size wire. I can spin up my lathe 5.5Kw spindle from 0-6,000 while the
>>>>> mill is running and never have I seen the lights dim, well when I ran
>>>>> the garage from some direct bury 10ga I could make the lights dim but
>>>>> not since I built the shop and installed proper wiring.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Sounds good.  It also means the power folks can access the can for tap
>>>> changes a lot easier.  But if its buried, where is the high side
>>>> disconnect? That would need to be done cold.
>>>>
>>>>

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

On 5/30/2012 11:30 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 12:06:22 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> A subroutine using a coordinate system rotate might be the simplest
>> method. Establish the center of your disk as X and Y0 and do a G10 L2 R
>> between slots. Something like the following  partly tested code should
>> do the trick.
> I think I'm following this but let me ask some questions.
>
>> Position tool at safe point
>> #  = 0
> I'd assume this starts at zero, where the current code starts at 360&
> counts down by 360/slots
Yes that starts at the normal rotation for the XY plain so your first 
slot would be parallel to the X axis.
>
>> G10 L2 P1 R#  (just to make sure in case of an abort)
> Yup.
>
>> o100 repeat [45]
> And this 45 is the number of slots?  Kewl.
Yes, the largest integer divisor I could find for 360 to avoid rounding 
errors when adding to the current rotation.
>
>> Position tool at start of cut
>> Slot cutting
> Which is the calculate the cut and do it subroutine I assume?
Or you could just have the 8 or 10 lines of G code to move the bit down 
and over and back up and over the number of times to cut the slot. 
Simpler that way for such short code unless you just want to make it a 
subroutine for practice.
>
>> Position tool at safe Z
>> G0 X0 Y0
> Once we are at the cutting position, the above seems like a time waster.
Try it in the sim without going to X0 and Y) before setting the 
rotation... it's fun and amusing really. You need to be in the center 
when you rotate or you end up with a spiral set of cuts.
>
>> #  = [#  + 8]
> And this '8' is actually the 360/slots?  Kewl.
Yep 8 degrees between slots. 8 x 45 = 360
>
>> G10 L2 P1 R#
>> o100 endrepeat
>> M2
> This would appear to be a rather lot of time running back and forth between
> the X0Y0 position and the center of each slot.  Or am I seeing ghosts?
You  only go to the center to change the rotation as you want to rotate 
about the center.
>
> To ease the stress on the bit, each incarnation of the call moves to the
> geometric center of the slot with z at the depth of the previous cut, then
> ramps from there down to the depth of the current cut at the inner, CW
> corner of the slot.  Then runs around the slot and goes back to SafeZ.
>
> It would definitely be an all in one solution though, printed for
> incorporation into what I have now as I believe it will nicely simplify
> things, many thanks John.
>
> Cheers, Gene

So for a single cut depth path I have 13 lines of G code to cut 45 slots 
8 degrees apart. Add 8 or 10 more lines of G code for multiple depth 
passes and your set. Don't like the shape of the slots easy to change as 
the slot is done in one place in your G code.

Thanks
John

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I'm guessing I don't need near that size perhaps 9-10 KVA?

John

On 5/30/2012 12:20 PM, Dave wrote:
> On 5/30/2012 12:34 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 30 May 2012 17:15, Dave   wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Perhaps I missed something;  Did you figure out if that transformer in your 
>>> machine is a Delta-Wye transformer or not?
>>>
>> It seems to be an autotransformer with a common centre tap (pretty
>> much identical to the hypothetical one I described).
>> There is low resistance between every combination of terminals,
>> including both input and output to neutral.
>>
>> That, plus the advice from Siemens, does seem to hint that swapping
>> the existing step-up transformer for one with a neutral tap in the
>> secondary is the way to go, though.
>>
>>
> Ugh...  I missed the "autotransformer" conclusion.  I thought this was
> some type of autotransformer/transformer combo.  So the machine builder
> saved $100 by using an autotransformer..  Geez.
>
> Yep, I would find a Delta-Wye transformer and ground the Wye center.
>
> With the high price of copper these days, transformers are going for
> premium prices.
>
> This guy really has his prices set high ... perhaps he would entertain
> an offer?   I don't think these will sell for the asking price.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marelco-30KVA-60Hz-3phase-Transformer-230-240-460-480-Volt-Delta-380-400-Y-Wye-/180816467318?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item2a19805576
>
> You might want to try Uship.com if you want to get one of these
> transported.  I have had good luck with that service.  Just be picky
> about who you select.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

On 5/30/2012 12:56 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 01:46:13 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> On 5/30/2012 11:30 AM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 12:06:22 PM John Thornton did opine:
>>>> A subroutine using a coordinate system rotate might be the simplest
>>>> method. Establish the center of your disk as X and Y0 and do a G10 L2
>>>> R between slots. Something like the following  partly tested code
>>>> should do the trick.
>>> I think I'm following this but let me ask some questions.
>>>
>>>> Position tool at safe point
>>>> #   = 0
>>> I'd assume this starts at zero, where the current code starts at 360&
>>> counts down by 360/slots
>> Yes that starts at the normal rotation for the XY plain so your first
>> slot would be parallel to the X axis.
>>
>>>> G10 L2 P1 R#   (just to make sure in case of an abort)
>>> Yup.
>>>
>>>> o100 repeat [45]
>>> And this 45 is the number of slots?  Kewl.
>> Yes, the largest integer divisor I could find for 360 to avoid rounding
>> errors when adding to the current rotation.
>>
>>>> Position tool at start of cut
>>>> Slot cutting
>>> Which is the calculate the cut and do it subroutine I assume?
>> Or you could just have the 8 or 10 lines of G code to move the bit down
>> and over and back up and over the number of times to cut the slot.
>> Simpler that way for such short code unless you just want to make it a
>> subroutine for practice.
>>
>>>> Position tool at safe Z
>>>> G0 X0 Y0
>>> Once we are at the cutting position, the above seems like a time
>>> waster.
>> Try it in the sim without going to X0 and Y) before setting the
>> rotation... it's fun and amusing really. You need to be in the center
>> when you rotate or you end up with a spiral set of cuts.
>>
>>>> #   = [#   + 8]
>>> And this '8' is actually the 360/slots?  Kewl.
>> Yep 8 degrees between slots. 8 x 45 = 360
>>
>>>> G10 L2 P1 R#
>>>> o100 endrepeat
>>>> M2
>>> This would appear to be a rather lot of time running back and forth
>>> between the X0Y0 position and the center of each slot.  Or am I
>>> seeing ghosts?
>> You  only go to the center to change the rotation as you want to rotate
>> about the center.
> I see.  So basically for these slots, do the full depth of cut while at
> that rotation.  That wouldn't be nearly as bad timewise.
>   
Yep, fully cut a slot then rotate about the center and proceed to the 
next slot.
>>> To ease the stress on the bit, each incarnation of the call moves to
>>> the geometric center of the slot with z at the depth of the previous
>>> cut, then ramps from there down to the depth of the current cut at
>>> the inner, CW corner of the slot.  Then runs around the slot and goes
>>> back to SafeZ.
>>>
>>> It would definitely be an all in one solution though, printed for
>>> incorporation into what I have now as I believe it will nicely
>>> simplify things, many thanks John.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene
>> So for a single cut depth path I have 13 lines of G code to cut 45 slots
>> 8 degrees apart. Add 8 or 10 more lines of G code for multiple depth
>> passes and your set. Don't like the shape of the slots easy to change as
>> the slot is done in one place in your G code.
> That I would love.  Thanks again John, I'll be out there sweating (its
> pushing 90 here now) the changes shortly.  One more cuppa...
>
> Just 1 problem, 45 may not give good quadrature.  But I'll try one at that
> anyway.  39 was originally chosen because the opto's are in a row, with the
> center one looking at the smaller diameter index circle.  They are centered
> nominally at A=0, Z=+.4" and B=+.8" on the pcb, so the A and B are not
> looking at the same slot, but have an odd number of slots between them.  So
> slot uniformity is pretty important.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Cheers, Gene
40 slots is a nice round number at 9 degrees... so A is .8" from B? Do 
you have a photo of this? I'm just curious about how you went about it.

John


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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Unfortunately it is still running the old DX32 control.

John

On 5/30/2012 1:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> The resistor/capacitor would be a low cost experiment. How do you
>> calculate what the values are for the resistor and the cap? Did you put
>> the resistor in series with one of the control lines? Does the cap
>> connect to the upstream side or the downstream side of the resistor?
>> Maybe a stick drawing would help me understand...
>>
> This machine is running LinuxCNC?  Don't do it with RC, put a HAL component
> in there.  You can use either lowpass or limit3 between
> motion.spindle-speed-out
> and whatever produces the analog command to the spindle drive.
>
> I had to do this to slow down the reversing of the spindle when rigid
> tapping so the
> Z axis could keep up.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

When we ran the generator we connected the 3 hots as usual and I don't 
recall if we grounded it or not. I only had 3 connectors large enough 
for the leads coming out of the generator so I'm sure we didn't connect 
the ground to the neutral of the generator.

http://cache.automation.siemens.com/dnl_iis/DA/DA0NDQz_59401543_HB/PJU_0212_en.pdf

In that manual after a fault I have 4 status LED's lit up. On page 6-143 
the bottom 4 LED's are lit. Which one caused the fault I can't tell.

The machine schematic does not show a neutral connected at the stepup 
transformer and the infeed unit doesn't even have a neutral connection 
and neither does the machine.

 From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611 
drive and rotary phase converters.

John

On 5/30/2012 1:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>> I just got off the phone with Siemens tech support and "Our systems
>> don't run well on phase converters."
> Well, given the way this system works, I'm not surprised by his comment.
> But, it is fairly close.  You need to get into it and see WHICH trip it is
> getting.  There probably are several different sensing circuits
> (over-voltage,
> under-voltage, lost phase, etc.)  and knowing which one is the source of the
> trip should be VERY helpful.  Right now you are flying blind, not
> knowing whether
> it needs more or less voltage, etc.
>>   was the main theme of the
>> conversation as well as we can't run on a Delta system because we need
>> the ground reference I think he said.
>>
> But, does the machine bring out the neutral?  I think you said it does
> not, so
> his comment does not make sense.  Well, given the way this system works, I'm
> not surprised by
>> Additionally he suggested a Delta to WYE step up transformer with
>> grounded secondaries between the RPC and the 611
> Well, if there's no neutral brought out, that doesn't make sense.  If it
> is SUPPOSED
> to have the neutral connected, and the wire has been removed when it was
> supposed to be connected, then suddenly, a LOT of things start to make
> sense.
>
> If it needs a neutral connection, it may be possible to connect it to a
> balance
> transformer, which is three windings on one core, with all the wires at one
> end connected together as the neutral.
>
> When you used the Diesel generator, did you hook the neutral to something?
> You said you used the 208 V taps, was this generator a 120-208 Wye
> unit?  If it worked fine on the Diesel with NO neutral connection, then
> this has no bearing on the problem.  If you DID hook the neutral to
> something in the machine, then this may be the most important piece of
> data.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Those both show an isolating transformer with a bonded neutral on the 
secondary side as well as a line filter.

Is the isolating transformer depicted a delta wye?

John

On 5/30/2012 2:37 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 May 2012 20:19, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> In that manual after a fault I have 4 status LED's lit up. On page 6-143
>> the bottom 4 LED's are lit. Which one caused the fault I can't tell.
> Line Supply Fault and DC Overvoltage sound possible.
>
>> The machine schematic does not show a neutral connected at the stepup
>> transformer
> True, it is unconnected in Fig 7.3, but that also shows a power supply
> with a PEN.
>
> If you look at 7.4 and 7.5 those both show an isolating transformer
> with the output neutral earthed.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

The facing mill I was speaking of fits into the spindle of the Discovery 
308 (the troublesome one) with the Simodrive 611. It's the heaviest tool 
I have for the 308.

My concern about using the resistor to trick the drive into ramping up 
slower is it will report at speed even before it is at speed. Do you do 
any rigid tapping with the resistor in place? The spindle has to be in 
control by the controller so I can rigid tap which is 30% of the ops I 
do on that machine.

Thanks for the ideas

John

On 5/30/2012 3:41 PM, ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Sorry for the delay - just got back from a meeting. I also updated my
>email address so I can post again!! My ISP moved to Google services and
> my
>email address changed. The EMC list had blocked posts sent from my new
>address.
>
> I'm guessing your 2.5" facing mill may not be rated at 7.5kW average with
> peaks of
>15kW during acceleration and deceleration. Does your facing mill have
>electronic drive controls or is it a plain 3-phase motor with belt
>reduction? I'm guessing our 7.5kW spindle drivers were built with the
>assumption there is a sturdy 3-phase supply to lean on.
>
> I posted a picture at: [LINK: http://flic.kr/p/c8pc7Y]
> http://flic.kr/p/c8pc7Y showing the circuit mod. I
>forget the exact resistor and capacitor values but I just experimented
> with
>a 5k and 220uF pair with a 10V bench power supply. To reach 90% of full
>value (9.0V) it took 5 seconds. Using a 1k resistor with a 220uF will
> reach
>90% of terminal value in 1 second. My selection gave me about a 2 second
>time constant. Just now I emulated the Heidenhain 0-10Vdc control with a
>bench power supply. Connecting the resistor to the cap to limit the rate
> of
>voltage rise on the capacitor and watching the cap voltage reach 9V took
> 5
>seconds with the 5k resistor. I remember inserting a resistor first and
>making sure the stepped speed program still achieved the RPMs I wanted it
>to. If you program it for 2000RPM and it only hits 1500RPM then choose a
>small resistor value. Somewhere in the 100 ohm to 4.7k ohm should work.
> If
>the resistor is too high a value compared to the input impedance of the
>spindle driver you will simply have a drop in voltage at the spindle
> driver
>and never achieve the speed you want. So, start with 1k without the
>capacitor and see if that changes your spindle RPMs. If ok then add (1)
> or
>(2) 220uF capacitors to suit. This will add 1 to 2 seconds of delay to
> slow
>the acceleration and deceleration of the spindle.
>
> If your spindle driver is analog like mine you may have a good chance of
>modifying your machine too. Old analog is great. No digital protocols or
>acknowledge packets to mess with. If you have schematics to the CNC
>controller, look for the spindle interface lines. If there is just one or
>two shown, you can break the connection and manually control the spindle
>speed with an external bench supply, potentiometer, etc.
>
> My experience was pretty straight forward looking back on it. It was the
>first rotary phase converter I built. When accelerating OR decelerating
>quickly, the spindle power meter would max out at 180% (meter would peg).
>This is normal for this machine. Accelerating would decrease the CNC's
>voltages and decelerating and dumping the spindle's brake energy into the
>rotary phase converter "grid" would increase the CNC's system voltages.
> It
>was apparent to me that is was starving for power while quickly
>accelerating and I did not have a strong enough grid (rotary phase
>converter) to brake against. If the engine is too big for a car and
> starved
>for gas or if the tires break loose while downshifting then don't
>accelerate as fast or decelerate as fast. The RC delay fixed it.
>
> Let me know what you find in your schematics.
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
> >Hi Dennis,
>
> >I have a 2.5" diameter facing mill that I use and I don't notice any
> >difference when using that. My machine lights do not dim during
> >acceleration which I assume is a good thing. I'm in the same canoe as
> >you with 240v single phase my only option to work with.
> >
> >Before all the experiments I could get 0 to 2k with no problems and
> >would structure my programs around that or use the G4 pause and ramp up
> >to the rpm I wanted above 2k.
> >
> >I too modified my program using a pause between S values but only had
> to
> >do that going up in rpm. From 6k to 0 I've never had a fault.
> >
> >The resistor/capacitor would be a low cost experiment. How do you
> >calculate what the values are for the resistor and the cap? Did you put
> >the resistor in series with one of the control lines? Does the cap
> >connect to the upstream side or the downstream side of the resistor?
> >Maybe a stick

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

That's a good idea, I don't hang out at the Zone any more but it's worth 
a shot.

John

On 5/30/2012 9:02 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>>From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611
>> drive and rotary phase converters.
>>
>>
> Well, have you checked on CNCZone for any experiences with this system?
> maybe somebody there knows how to fix this problem.  there are some VERY
> savvy machine techs there who have faced all sorts of crazy problems.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

As an electrician I would agree with you normally. When you leave the 
world of power distribution and enter the world of electronics the 
"rules" might change. In any case I know Andy was just pulling my leg.

John

On 5/30/2012 8:29 PM, fritz wrote:
> On 05/29/2012 12:07 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 29 May 2012 17:00, John Thornton   wrote:
>>> N to each X is.1 ohm
>>> X to X is .2 ohm
>> That sounds like the tapping you needed.
>>
>> I would say earth it, put on rubber boots, rubber gloves and operate
>> the machine with a long, dry stick :-)
>>
> As an electrician, I should now interject that a neutral should only be
> bonded at the point of distribution (the breaker panel or upstream
> transformer).  Grounding a neutral anywhere else makes for strange
> problems and stray currents on the ground.  People often falsely assume
> electricity takes the path of least resistance - according to Ohm's law,
> it follows ALL paths in a parallel circuit.
>
> But hey, it's your cat and you can pick it up by the tail if you want.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Interestingly I had a bit of time last night and did some more voltage 
measurements with various bits turned on to load the RPC.

RPC only running AB=245 BC=253 AC=253
With the BP 308 (Simodrive 611) powered up AB=245 BC=245 AC=245
With the Samson 7.5hp manual lathe spindle at 660 RPM AB=244 BC=232
Adding the 308's spindle at 1000 RPM AB=244 BC=234 AC=229
Ramping up to 3000 RPM on the 308's spindle AB=244 BC=234 AC=227

So it appears I need to do a bit more tuning with the caps as the load 
is dragging down the voltage on the generated leg. Interestingly with 
the Samson running the BP 308 would start from 0 to a higher RPM than 
with it off even though the voltage had been pulled down by the Samson's 
spindle.

I also tried adjusting some of the pots on the 611 spindle drive with no 
conclusive results from that experiment.

I did hear back from the transformer guy Gene gave me the link to. Seems 
to be a fair price so I'll investigate that more as well as look at the 
diesel generator next week and do some more tuning on the RPC.

"Hi John,
The cost for a 240 VAC 30A 3-phase isolation transformer is $1250.  
Factory lead time is approximately 4-5 weeks.
If you need any additional information or would like to order the unit, 
please feel to contact me by phone or email.
Regards,
Jeff
Jeff Weinberg
Harbach Electronics, LLC"

John

On 5/30/2012 2:58 PM, Dave wrote:
> I think the reason why they want a grounded neutral is to keep the phase
> voltages controlled relative to a ground reference.
>
> The drive chassis usually has several large ground lugs on it which are
> suppose to be tied to earth ground as would be the neutral.
>
> An ungrounded Delta power system can get out of control relative to
> earth ground.  For instance, if for some reason one leg of a Delta goes
> to ground, the other two legs rise to a voltage equal to the line to
> line voltage away from ground.  If you get an intermittent short between
> one Delta leg and ground, the voltages can swing all over the place
> relative to ground.
> That stresses any parts in the drive system which are referenced to
> frame ground.   Back in the early 90's Siemens had one line of VFDs that
> had big problems blowing DC link capacitors.   I was told that was
> because they were being used on ungrounded delta systems (used to be
> very common in industrial plants in the US) and if the Delta power
> source got out of wack, the capacitors would see high voltages to ground
> and explode.   I saw a couple of them that literally blew apart the
> drive.  That line of VFDs was short lived and  they quickly changed
> their design.
>
>>>  From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611
> drive and rotary phase converters.<<
>
> The 611 drives are very popular. Many machine manufacturers used them for 
> many years.  Those guys have pretty much heard it all.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 5/30/2012 3:19 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> When we ran the generator we connected the 3 hots as usual and I don't
>> recall if we grounded it or not. I only had 3 connectors large enough
>> for the leads coming out of the generator so I'm sure we didn't connect
>> the ground to the neutral of the generator.
>>
>> http://cache.automation.siemens.com/dnl_iis/DA/DA0NDQz_59401543_HB/PJU_0212_en.pdf
>>
>> In that manual after a fault I have 4 status LED's lit up. On page 6-143
>> the bottom 4 LED's are lit. Which one caused the fault I can't tell.
>>
>> The machine schematic does not show a neutral connected at the stepup
>> transformer and the infeed unit doesn't even have a neutral connection
>> and neither does the machine.
>>
>>From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611
>> drive and rotary phase converters.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/30/2012 1:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> John Thornton wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just got off the phone with Siemens tech support and "Our systems
>>>> don't run well on phase converters."
>>>>
>>> Well, given the way this system works, I'm not surprised by his comment.
>>> But, it is fairly close.  You need to get into it and see WHICH trip it is
>>> getting.  There probably are several different sensing circuits
>>> (over-voltage,
>>> under-voltage, lost phase, etc.)  and knowing which one is the source of the
>>> trip should be VERY helpful.  Right now you are flying blind, not
>>> knowing whether
>>> it needs more or less voltage, etc.
>>>
>>>> was the main theme of the
>>>> conversation as well as we can't run o

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I'm sure fresh bearings would help the 15hp and it is a heavy duty TEFC 
motor. I might pull it apart today and order some new ones...

I didn't measure the temperature of the 10hp and only ran a few minutes 
but I'll keep an eye on it.

I didn't ask for taps on the transformer but it won't hurt to find out 
the price. Input taps for 220 and 240?

How is the encoder disk coming along?

John

On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 07:34:36 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> Interestingly I had a bit of time last night and did some more voltage
>> measurements with various bits turned on to load the RPC.
>>
>> RPC only running AB=245 BC=253 AC=253
>> With the BP 308 (Simodrive 611) powered up AB=245 BC=245 AC=245
>> With the Samson 7.5hp manual lathe spindle at 660 RPM AB=244 BC=232
>> Adding the 308's spindle at 1000 RPM AB=244 BC=234 AC=229
>> Ramping up to 3000 RPM on the 308's spindle AB=244 BC=234 AC=227
> The phase angles are shifting some.  And the sag might mean you would have
> to go back to the 15 horse idler for the RPC.  You said it was noisy, would
> fresh bearings help?  OTOH, if its an open frame Ajax, they howl like fire
> sirens anyway.
>
> A 15 horse water pump we had as a backup at KXNE-TV, easily added 30 db to
> the noise level as it wasted at least a horse on internal cooling fans.  I
> didn't think much of it, but it did get 1000 or more running hours without
> problems while we ordered up and installed seal kits in the other, much
> quieter pump.  Klystron amplifiers need about 70 GPM of cooling water each
> when at full beam current, so between the 2 we were moving about 120 GPM.
> You don't scrimp on cooling those at $150,000 per cooling failure. A 3
> phase Heineman breaker single phased the pump, I recognized the sound and
> my hand was about 1/2 way to the kill button when the building entrance
> breaker, 1200 amps/phase, went down like a 8 gage shotgun&  left me
> standing in the dark to contemplate my sins.  One klystron full of water
> where it should have had a very good vacuum.  The beam ate a hole in the
> anode bucket in less than a second.  That of course crow barred the 20 kv
> beam supply, and things all went to hell from there. They had to call in a
> quorum of the unicameral legislature to buy me a replacement.
>
> How hot is the 10HP running after an hour with both loads on it?
>
>> So it appears I need to do a bit more tuning with the caps as the load
>> is dragging down the voltage on the generated leg. Interestingly with
>> the Samson running the BP 308 would start from 0 to a higher RPM than
>> with it off even though the voltage had been pulled down by the Samson's
>> spindle.
> Things that make you go "humm".
>
>> I also tried adjusting some of the pots on the 611 spindle drive with no
>> conclusive results from that experiment.
>>
>> I did hear back from the transformer guy Gene gave me the link to. Seems
>> to be a fair price so I'll investigate that more as well as look at the
>> diesel generator next week and do some more tuning on the RPC.
>>
>> "Hi John,
>> The cost for a 240 VAC 30A 3-phase isolation transformer is $1250.
>> Factory lead time is approximately 4-5 weeks.
>> If you need any additional information or would like to order the unit,
>> please feel to contact me by phone or email.
>> Regards,
>> Jeff
>> Jeff Weinberg
>> Harbach Electronics, LLC"
>>
>> John
> When you asked for the quote, did you include some extra primary taps so
> that a 5 to 10% step up/down could be done?  That could turn out to be
> handier than sliced bread or bottled beer. There will be a cost associated
> with the taps of course.  Whomever I talked to before, seemed to be a
> decent sort.  And the stuff is top quality in my experience.
>
> [...]
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on 
that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a 
little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage. 
This is what I ended up with...

Phase ===> A-BB-CA-C
Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
RFC on 246v   263v   271v
Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my 
company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k 
with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my 
surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at 
295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few 
more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it 
out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until 
I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting 
thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611 
on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain 
to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out 
the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to 
showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the 
wave form when this happens.

Thanks for all the help and ideas.

John

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I've caused my 10hp to "grunt" with a big load and it appears to slow 
down then get back up to speed. I've drawn my 3hp RPC down so far the 
potential relay kicked the start caps back in... it was at that point I 
knew I could not run my Enco in high speed from the 3hp RPC. The 15hp 
has a sizable 6 belt pulley as a flywheel and I've never heard it grunt 
when applying a load.

On 5/31/2012 10:45 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:08 -0500, ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
> ... snip
>> I have not found that the rotary phase converter slows in RPM during
>> high low demands as it is still an asynchronous AC motor ...
> ... snip
>
> It's the velocity variation during a revolution that comes into play,
> although I haven't measured this so I can't back this up with data.
> Since only one phase produces momentum, the two generated phases draw
> energy from the rotating mass and slow it down. Increasing rotating mass
> increases the amount of energy available and should also increase the
> amount of input current capacity to replace the converted energy.

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2" 
steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and 
drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20 
TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap 
them over again.

$64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp 
spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

John

On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:
> You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
> out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.
>
> It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
> ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
> are.
>
> I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
> loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
> run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
> know I don't have any
> between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
> about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
> have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
> of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.
>
> I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
> phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
> to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
> might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
> to the 611 drive.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
>> that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
>> little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
>> This is what I ended up with...
>>
>> Phase ===>   A-BB-CA-C
>> Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
>> RFC on 246v   263v   271v
>> Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
>> 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
>> Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v
>>
>> I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
>> company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
>> with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
>> surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
>> 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
>> more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
>> out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
>> I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
>> thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
>> on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
>> to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
>> the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
>> showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
>> wave form when this happens.
>>
>> Thanks for all the help and ideas.
>>
>> John
>>
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>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I might be able to scrounge another 240-480 transformer and put it with 
the one I have to get back to 240... do you think they need to be 
similar in size?

John

On 5/31/2012 11:28 AM, Dave wrote:
> Looks to me like it is more like a $1264 question.  ;-)
>
> I don't know.   That's why I would try and borrow one first.
>
> Know of any plants where you do work that has a spare transformer lying
> around?
>
> I've put a couple of them together before to get the right voltage..  IE
> 240 to 480 and then 480 to 380 etc.
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/31/2012 12:06 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2"
>> steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and
>> drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20
>> TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap
>> them over again.
>>
>> $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
>> spindle motor is doing on the Samson?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:
>>
>>> You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
>>> out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.
>>>
>>> It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
>>> ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
>>> are.
>>>
>>> I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
>>> loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
>>> run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
>>> know I don't have any
>>> between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
>>> about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
>>> have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
>>> of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.
>>>
>>> I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
>>> phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
>>> to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
>>> might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
>>> to the 611 drive.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>>
>>>> A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
>>>> that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
>>>> little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
>>>> This is what I ended up with...
>>>>
>>>> Phase ===> A-BB-CA-C
>>>> Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
>>>> RFC on 246v   263v   271v
>>>> Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
>>>> 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
>>>> Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v
>>>>
>>>> I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
>>>> company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
>>>> with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
>>>> surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
>>>> 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
>>>> more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
>>>> out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
>>>> I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
>>>> thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
>>>> on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
>>>> to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
>>>> the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
>>>> showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
>>>> wave form when this happens.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the help and ideas.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Are you tapering the slots so the edges are perpendicular to the center? 
BTW, 60 slots with the subroutine is a piece of cake. If you can come up 
with the code to do one slot I can paste it in my subroutine and send it 
back.

John

On 5/31/2012 11:46 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:28:24 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> I'm sure fresh bearings would help the 15hp and it is a heavy duty TEFC
>> motor. I might pull it apart today and order some new ones...
>>
>> I didn't measure the temperature of the 10hp and only ran a few minutes
>> but I'll keep an eye on it.
>>
>> I didn't ask for taps on the transformer but it won't hurt to find out
>> the price. Input taps for 220 and 240?
> Since the existing autoformer has taps for 208, 220 and 240, I'd say an
> extra at 220, so you could use it for a 220 to 240 step up, or conversely
> swap primary&  secondary&  use it for a 240 to 220 step down would cover
> the options nicely when combined with the autoformers own taps.
>
> The N terminal on the existing autoformer can then be taken back to neutral
> in the service, thereby forcing the secondary side to become neutral
> referenced.  If this tranny comes with N connections on both windings, the
> N connection on whatever winding is used for drive to the existing
> autoformer could also be tied to this neutral run, but that would be more
> for correctness than any real advantage since it's the N terminal of the
> OEM autoformer that counts here.
>
> I'd check my copy of the NEC, but it's either grown legs or belonged to the
> tv station.  In any event its a '98 issue and could be obsolete.  I haven't
> stumbled over it in 3 or 4 years.
>
>> How is the encoder disk coming along?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> So-so. I, took that printout out there yesterday, but being somewhat fam
> with the old code, and having a supply of #58&  #60 pcb drills, I massaged
> that code for the smaller bits and tried to make a 60 slot encoder, then,
> trying to get the exec time down (its about 2.75 hours with that small a
> bit) I pushed too hard&  broke the last #58, so I slowed down a bit more.
> So I've broken about $35 worth of bits now to get one poorly cut disk.  I
> added a duty cycle fudge value where the original code just divided by 2.0.
>
> Since mulls are faster, the disk I made yesterday now has a mull by
> duty_cycle, with duty cycle at .45.  Next one will be at .40 to equalize
> the opto outputs to 50%, they were about 57/43 when I put it on the lathe.
>
> I have the A/B slot ring about correct if I reduce the duty cycle from .45
> to .40, I should get pretty close to a 50% duty cycle out of the opto
> devices.  I can bend them back and forth perhaps 10 thou to fine tune the
> quadrature timing, or adjust the slot count one way or the other by one
> count.  But I think I am going to have to dig another 5 thou deeper into
> the piece of oil soaked oak used for sacrificial in order to remove the
> last vestiges of the fact that its not an end mill, but a drill bit with
> fairly steep angles. It left a fin at the bottom of the slot.
>
> Going from 39 to 60 slots, I had to adjust the encoder's scale&  negate it
> but that was half expected.  And I have too much gain, the speed is hunting
> about 10%.
>
> Then, I am going to have to separate the slot cutting and inner hole cutout
> from each other in the codes looping so this thinner stuff has less
> opportunity to flex, and after fighting with the index slot, trying to
> maintain its tapered shape, it occurred to me that a simple slot perhaps a
> thou wider than the bit itself is all that needs since I don't think it
> needs a specific timeing reference the A/B slot ring. So that is the next
> change for this code. The .001 off line movement there is about the limit
> of my mill, but would be intended to assure that only one edge of the drill
> is doing the cutting. When both edges cut, the cut isn't as clean as the
> bit flexes.  I ordered another 5 pack of each bit size yesterday. $89.
>
> Another thing that I question is the math that does the tapering of the
> slots, I have a feeling its not quite right, but cannot put my finger on
> it.  That is about a screen full of code in vim all by itself just to make
> the 5 moves that carve the slot at each depth increment, and the last
> movement should be to the origin of the end of the first movement, but
> there is a small gap when you zoom in the backplot to look at slot 0 and
> the index or to any individual slot.  The error is at least consistent
> though so should be fixable.
>
> I haven't start

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Well that and for fun too... but I do have a backlog of money to make...

John

On 5/31/2012 11:56 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:53:37 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
>> that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
>> little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
>> This is what I ended up with...
>>
>> Phase ===>  A-BB-CA-C
>> Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
>> RFC on 246v   263v   271v
>> Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
>> 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
>> Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v
>>
>> I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
>> company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
>> with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
>> surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
>> 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
>> more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
>> out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
>> I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
>> thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
>> on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
>> to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
>> the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
>> showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
>> wave form when this happens.
>>
> That is certainly progress in the right direction, John.  You can actually
> get money making work done.  And that I believe is the object of this
> exercise, is it not?
>
>> Thanks for all the help and ideas.
>>
>> John
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Not too long ago I replaced every cap in the infeed unit, so I know they 
are all fresh.

John

On 5/31/2012 12:27 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> John Thornton wrote:
>>   The interesting
>> thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
>> on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
>> to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
>> the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
>> showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
>> wave form when this happens.
>>
> The sagging of the A-C voltage under load and the trip when starting the
> lathe
> point in the same direction.  If the Simodrive has individual sensing of
> each
> line, it may be detecting that one is too low.  Otherwise, it may be
> detecting
> too much ripple on the DC bus, as it doesn't get much charge from the
> sagged line.  It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
> replacing these
> caps would make it run reliably even as is.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] G92

[John Thornton]

Dunno where you read that but I use G92 for every cutting operation on 
my plasma table... making sure to clear them when done. I jog to the 
start point and that becomes XY 0 for the duration of the cut.

John

On 5/31/2012 12:29 PM, mjb1...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've written a subroutine that starts
>
> G92 X0 Y0
>
> performs a task at the current location and ends
>
> G92.2
>
> I can the go to a locaction and call the subroutine.
>
> This all works as expected, but I've read that using G92 is not a good idea.  
> Is there a better way?
>
> Mike
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I'm not sure what the drives are as they are all in one modular unit and 
have interconnecting communications between the infeed unit and all the 
drives. My local voltage is 240 on the mains with 120 to neutral. I've 
not seen any inverters designed to take single phase in larger than 3hp, 
I have in the past long ago do the single phase in three phase out trick 
on over sized inverters.

John

On 5/31/2012 12:55 PM, Les Newell wrote:
> Are the servo drives 3-phase as well? If not it may be cheaper to
> replace the spindle drive with one that is a bit less touchy. My
> Colchester Triumph 2000 CNC lathe has an inverter designed to run off
> 415V 3-ph. I use a step-up transformer to take my 230V single phase
> mains up to 415V single phase. I just feed two of the phase inputs and
> leave the third unconnected. You do need to derate the inverter if you
> do this as it stresses the filter capacitors and input rectifier. I
> never use full spindle power (10hp) so I get away with using the
> original inverter. I also need to limit the spindle acceleration in top
> gear with a 10" chuck otherwise I blow my main fuse. This setup has been
> working for 2+ years with no problems.
>
> Another, rather expensive, solution is to use an inverter plus a
> sinewave filter. This produces almost perfect 3-phase. These inverters
> are 240V in, 415 out but I am sure they are also available 110V in or
> whatever your local voltage is.
> .
> The sine wave filters clean up the inverter output and output a waveform
> that is nearly as clean as proper 3-ph mains.
>
>> It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
>> replacing these caps would make it run reliably even as is.
> That is a possibility that is worth investigating. Some drive
> manufacturers even recommend changing these periodically.
>
> Les
>
>
> On 31/05/2012 18:27, Jon Elson wrote:
>> The sagging of the A-C voltage under load and the trip when starting the
>> lathe
>> point in the same direction.  If the Simodrive has individual sensing of
>> each
>> line, it may be detecting that one is too low.  Otherwise, it may be
>> detecting
>> too much ripple on the DC bus, as it doesn't get much charge from the
>> sagged line.  It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
>> replacing these
>> caps would make it run reliably even as is.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] G92

[John Thornton]

That is a very old link and is no longer there. The online docs are here:

http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/documentation

On 5/31/2012 2:37 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> Little OT, regarding homepage: I got curious to find out, what exactly
> does G92 do and went to search the web.
> I found out that this page is not accessible:
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html
>
> Is the link not correct or is there something wrong?
>
> Viesturs
>
> 2012/5/31 John Thornton:
>> Dunno where you read that but I use G92 for every cutting operation on
>> my plasma table... making sure to clear them when done. I jog to the
>> start point and that becomes XY 0 for the duration of the cut.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/31/2012 12:29 PM, mjb1...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I've written a subroutine that starts
>>>
>>> G92 X0 Y0
>>>
>>> performs a task at the current location and ends
>>>
>>> G92.2
>>>
>>> I can the go to a locaction and call the subroutine.
>>>
>>> This all works as expected, but I've read that using G92 is not a good 
>>> idea.  Is there a better way?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] G92

[John Thornton]

That is just stale goo cash I assume... none of the old links are any 
good due to the restructuring of the manuals for 2.5.

Best is to use the goo site search like this G21 site:linuxcnc.org

John

On 5/31/2012 3:29 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> Thank You!
> Any chance to put redirect or something? I was brought to that link by goole
>
> Viesturs
>
> 2012/5/31 John Thornton:
>> That is a very old link and is no longer there. The online docs are here:
>>
>> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/documentation
>>
>> On 5/31/2012 2:37 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>>> Little OT, regarding homepage: I got curious to find out, what exactly
>>> does G92 do and went to search the web.
>>> I found out that this page is not accessible:
>>> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html
>>>
>>> Is the link not correct or is there something wrong?
>>>
>>> Viesturs
>>>
>>> 2012/5/31 John Thornton:
>>>> Dunno where you read that but I use G92 for every cutting operation on
>>>> my plasma table... making sure to clear them when done. I jog to the
>>>> start point and that becomes XY 0 for the duration of the cut.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On 5/31/2012 12:29 PM, mjb1...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> I've written a subroutine that starts
>>>>>
>>>>> G92 X0 Y0
>>>>>
>>>>> performs a task at the current location and ends
>>>>>
>>>>> G92.2
>>>>>
>>>>> I can the go to a locaction and call the subroutine.
>>>>>
>>>>> This all works as expected, but I've read that using G92 is not a good 
>>>>> idea.  Is there a better way?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] G92

[John Thornton]

yea, non of those pertain to LinuxCNC... I have started a LinuxCNC G 
code tutorial but it is in it's quite small but is for LinuxCNC exclusively.

John

On 5/31/2012 3:43 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
> It was this thread that made me question it:
>
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_mills/22872-g92.html
>
> I was also confused by the tutorial for CNC Simulator
>
> http://cncsimulator.com/blog/?page_id=102
>
> This starts a program
>
> G92 X30 Y30 Z20
> T1 M6
> G0 X15 Y15 Z2
>
> Assuming the simulator starts at machine X0 Y0 X0
>
> I think this should take you to machine X-15 Y-15 Z-18
>
> Unless I've misunderstood G92 I think the simulator is wrong.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 31 May 2012, at 20:37, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:
>
>> Little OT, regarding homepage: I got curious to find out, what exactly
>> does G92 do and went to search the web.
>> I found out that this page is not accessible:
>> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html
>>
>> Is the link not correct or is there something wrong?
>>
>> Viesturs
>>
>> 2012/5/31 John Thornton:
>>> Dunno where you read that but I use G92 for every cutting operation on
>>> my plasma table... making sure to clear them when done. I jog to the
>>> start point and that becomes XY 0 for the duration of the cut.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On 5/31/2012 12:29 PM, mjb1...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I've written a subroutine that starts
>>>>
>>>> G92 X0 Y0
>>>>
>>>> performs a task at the current location and ends
>>>>
>>>> G92.2
>>>>
>>>> I can the go to a locaction and call the subroutine.
>>>>
>>>> This all works as expected, but I've read that using G92 is not a good 
>>>> idea.  Is there a better way?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD then 
rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then 
rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated and 
full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a machining view 
point to cut each slot fully then move to the next slot then change 
tools and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out 
the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that it 
is completely configurable.

How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots, and 
holes at the same time?

If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes then 
mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the size of 
the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the OD.

By "duty cycle" does that mean the  width of the slot verses the width 
between the slots?

John

On 5/31/2012 10:43 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:29:49 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> Are you tapering the slots so the edges are perpendicular to the center?
> That was I believe the general idea, John.
>
> I have the next one about 1/3rd done, but the run time is nearly 4 hours as
> I had to slow it because I could see the bit flexing a few thou.  When my
> back gave out just now I hit the pause button while the bit was at SafeZ,
> put the spindle controller in manual at zero speed, blew that last passes
> oil&  debris off it, its looking great, and turned off the lights for the
> night.
>
>> BTW, 60 slots with the subroutine is a piece of cake. If you can come up
>> with the code to do one slot I can paste it in my subroutine and send it
>> back.
>>
>> John
> There's stuff in it that isn't now used, but I just put a copy of whats
> running right now on my web page, under Genes-os9-stf/eagle/genes-
> encoder.ngc
>
> Part of the run time is the sheet is warping when I cut off a piece, so I
> have to use a total cut depth that is about 2.5x as thick as the alu, and
> let it nibble on the oil soaked oak sacrificial pad under it.
>
> Thanks John.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

That is some interesting code for sure and I can understand why it takes 
so long making one pass over the whole thing with a tiny bit and lots of 
rapid moves. It would be better from a machining view to do the OD and 
ID with a larger endmill and drill the mounting holes then switch to the 
tiny one to make the slots.

It appears the slot sides are perpendicular to the center of the disk. 
If your A and B sensors are mounted in a straight line the off and on 
times will be a bit different between A and B if I'm understanding this 
correctly. Of course Z won't matter.

I still think the slots could be done with less than 30 lines of code 
and using rotate. One bad thing I noticed is the arcs are using radius 
which is known to not be perfect in some cases.

On 5/31/2012 10:43 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:29:49 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> Are you tapering the slots so the edges are perpendicular to the center?
> That was I believe the general idea, John.
>
> I have the next one about 1/3rd done, but the run time is nearly 4 hours as
> I had to slow it because I could see the bit flexing a few thou.  When my
> back gave out just now I hit the pause button while the bit was at SafeZ,
> put the spindle controller in manual at zero speed, blew that last passes
> oil&  debris off it, its looking great, and turned off the lights for the
> night.
>
>> BTW, 60 slots with the subroutine is a piece of cake. If you can come up
>> with the code to do one slot I can paste it in my subroutine and send it
>> back.
>>
>> John
> There's stuff in it that isn't now used, but I just put a copy of whats
> running right now on my web page, under Genes-os9-stf/eagle/genes-
> encoder.ngc
>
> Part of the run time is the sheet is warping when I cut off a piece, so I
> have to use a total cut depth that is about 2.5x as thick as the alu, and
> let it nibble on the oil soaked oak sacrificial pad under it.
>
> Thanks John.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

Gene,

I used debug to capture the path of the first slot and put it into my 
subroutine. Run the following in sim and see what you think. Even at F2 
and 0.001" DOC one slot only takes a smidgen over 2 minutes to cut in my 
sim.

F2
T1 M6 G43
# = -0.025
#  = 0.001
G0 X1.1 Y0 Z0.05
# = 0
G10 L2 P1 R#
o100 repeat [60]
   G0 X1.15 Y0
   G1 X1.093745 Y-0.003410 Z0
   o110 while [#5422 GT #]
 G1 X1.093745 Y-0.003410 Z[#5422 - #]
 G3 X1.093747 Y0.002728 R1.09375
 G1 X1.183744 Y0.003611
 G2 X1.183744 Y-0.003611 R1.18375
 G1 X1.093747 Y-0.002728
   o110 endwhile
G0 Z0.05
X0 Y0
# = [# + 6]
G10 L2 P1 R#
o100 endrepeat
M2


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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

On 6/1/2012 7:28 AM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:20:37 AM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD
> :) To check fixture clearances.
>
>> then
>> rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then
>> rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated and
>> full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a machining view
>> point to cut each slot fully then move to the next slot then change
>> tools
> This spindle is #2 morse collets, loosen drawbar about 2 turns, beat it
> loose with a piece of steel. Hard on bearings.  The only fixed length is
> the rings on the drills, so my tool changing z accuracy if I change the
> collet to fit the bigger mill, really needs my autoz code. Unforch, without
> making a melamine jig to insulate the whole thing, that's out.  It uses
> G38.2 for that.  This way its all done with one z home&  one bit if I don't
> break it...
Yea, for multiple tools have multiple G code files, set Z run one to 
completion, change tools set Z ...
>> and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out
>> the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that it
>> is completely configurable.
> Almost, I've added about 6 or 8 more vars so it is considerable more
> adjustable.  Lawrence's original code is also available on the net.  If you
> need that for comparison I'll dig up the bookmark.
That's ok your rendition was interesting enough to look at...
>
>> How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots, and
>> holes at the same time?
> Clamps on each of the 4 corners. Because this stuff is so thin, I've
> considered making a jig fastened to the table, then using one of the
> leftovers in 1/16" brass as an overlaying holddown with its own bolts to
> hold the stuff flat while machining.  That could also serve as a dam to
> hold cutting oil in place a bit better, as it is, it creeps away and has to
> be replenished about 2x a loop thru the main loop.  If I see debris stuff
> on the bit when it goes to safeZ, its time for more oil.  I have made a
> mister that could keep the swarf blown away, but even with the shop door
> open, it turns into a glasses fogging fog of oil in there in about 30
> minutes.  And my lungs don't need that safflower oil in them either.
>
> This between the clamps warpage is why I have to start about 15 thou high,
> and run to about 10 thou into the 1/4" oak sacrificial its clamped down to.
> It wasn't near the problem with 1/16" brass, but with a #60 drill it would
> be 2-3 days to carve because the brass tends to work harden.  I've already
> broke about $50 in these bits, but if I don't push them, they'll cut with a
> 0.0025" touch forever in alu if I keep an oil film on the work to seal out
> the oxygen.  A higher speed spindle would help, this one is tapped out at
> 2500.  Right now the 'touch' is about 0.0032, so I've dropped the feed
> override to about 75% where I don't see the bit flexing as much.  Time I
> have, accuracy is whats needed.  I only have to do it once IF I get it
> right.  Keyword=right...
>
>> If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes then
>> mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the size of
>> the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the OD.
> I've considered that. If I was to make them for sale I'd at least make a
> better holddown jig.  In my case, a mini lathe, the mounting holes could be
> dispensed with as the finished disk is trapped between the spindles preload
> adjusting nut, and an identical locking nut.  So the concentricity demands
> means that center hole is -0.000 to +0.002 max.  It's about right when I
> have to fuss a bit to get it over the threads and seated against the
> preload but.  At the diameter of that bolt circle the bolts would interface
> with the locknuts.  So if to actually be used, the bolt circle would need
> enlarged but the limit there is when the bolts or rivets hit the center,
> index pulse generating interrupter.  There isn't a lot of room to play in
> that area. :)
>
>> By "duty cycle" does that mean the  width of the slot verses the width
>> between the slots?
> Yes, exactly, in order to get a 50% duty square wave.  Lawrence's original
> cut at 50% with a /2.0 there, no comp for opto aperture.  Besides, mulls
> are quite a bit faster then divides for the computer.  My last attempt was
> at .45, and it was about 60/40 high/low since the opto's don't have an
> infinite

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are 
rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

John

On 5/31/2012 3:20 PM, Dave wrote:
> They really don't have to be, but they should probably both be larger
> than 10 KVA.  If you have one that was 30 KVA and another that was
> 10KVA, I wouldn't hesitate to hook them together for a test.
>
> Although if you can trip out your 611 with only the spindle running and
> ramping up slowly,  even a couple of 7.5 KVA transformers would probably
> prove out the situation one way or another.
>
> Dave
>
> On 5/31/2012 3:15 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I might be able to scrounge another 240-480 transformer and put it with
>> the one I have to get back to 240... do you think they need to be
>> similar in size?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/31/2012 11:28 AM, Dave wrote:
>>
>>> Looks to me like it is more like a $1264 question.  ;-)
>>>
>>> I don't know.   That's why I would try and borrow one first.
>>>
>>> Know of any plants where you do work that has a spare transformer lying
>>> around?
>>>
>>> I've put a couple of them together before to get the right voltage..  IE
>>> 240 to 480 and then 480 to 380 etc.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 5/31/2012 12:06 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2"
>>>> steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and
>>>> drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20
>>>> TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap
>>>> them over again.
>>>>
>>>> $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
>>>> spindle motor is doing on the Samson?
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
>>>>> out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.
>>>>>
>>>>> It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
>>>>> ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
>>>>> loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
>>>>> run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
>>>>> know I don't have any
>>>>> between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
>>>>> about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
>>>>> have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
>>>>> of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't 
>>>>> working.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
>>>>> phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
>>>>> to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
>>>>> might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
>>>>> to the 611 drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
>>>>>> that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
>>>>>> little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
>>>>>> This is what I ended up with...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phase ===>   A-BB-CA-C
>>>>>> Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
>>>>>> RFC on 246v   263v   271v
>>>>>> Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
>>>>>> 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
>>>>>> Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
>>>>>> company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
>>>>>> with a 0.0

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

I just pulled that feed rate out of my ear, assuming if you actually 
tried to cut you would replace it with a feed rate that worked for you.

John

On 6/1/2012 5:44 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> John T.:  I did a short pass with your code, cutting 2 slots.  Feed way too
> fast, the slots were badly S shaped from bit flex.  It sure looked like a
> good idea though.  Thanks.
>
> Running a .7" feedrate, it is gradually straightening out the bottoms of
> the slots.  I also went down to a 45 cycle wheel with the narrowest slot
> for the one under construction now, but my calipers are telling me I'll
> have to pull the opto's together by at least 50 thou to get good
> quadrature.  Dunno if I can bend then that far or not.  We'll see when this
> one is done.  I'll see what the duty cycle is as I'd druther go up than
> down.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

[John Thornton]

After some checking most transformers show the percent of inductance on 
the label. Some are 2.5% some are 4.~%. Basically the 611 drive is a 
poorly designed drive as the power requirements are very strict. This 
drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!

John

On 6/1/2012 5:52 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:
>
>> I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are
>> rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.
>>
>> John
>>
> BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may as
> well be shopping for a good used car.
>
> Cheers, Gene

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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[John Thornton]

I have another stocking order due in Friday that will add THCAD-10's, 
THCAD-300's and 7i80HD-16's to the cards already in stock.

In stock now.
5i24-16
5i25
6i25
7i37TA
7i76
7i76E
7i77
7i77ISOL
7i90HD
7i92

I also have 5vdc and 24vdc power supplies in stock.

JT

On 2/1/2016 4:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> I just want to announce that I'm going to be a Mesa Electronics reseller
> in America. I just got conformation on my first stocking order should be
> here Friday February 5th. As soon as I get everything checked in the
> store will be up and running. www.mesaus.com
>
> Thanks
> JT
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[John Thornton]

I don't have 7i29's yet, they are on the list I just need to build some 
sales then keep expanding.

JT

On 3/8/2016 11:49 AM, Belli Button wrote:
> 7i29's?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
> Sent: 08 March 2016 14:31
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America
>
> I have another stocking order due in Friday that will add THCAD-10's,
> THCAD-300's and 7i80HD-16's to the cards already in stock.
>
> In stock now.
> 5i24-16
> 5i25
> 6i25
> 7i37TA
> 7i76
> 7i76E
> 7i77
> 7i77ISOL
> 7i90HD
> 7i92
>
> I also have 5vdc and 24vdc power supplies in stock.
>
> JT
>
> On 2/1/2016 4:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I just want to announce that I'm going to be a Mesa Electronics
>> reseller in America. I just got conformation on my first stocking
>> order should be here Friday February 5th. As soon as I get everything
>> checked in the store will be up and running. www.mesaus.com
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT
>>
>> --
>> 
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>
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[Emc-users] Hey Gene, Have you seen this?

[John Thornton]

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/20-g-code/30552-edit-g-code-with-code-folding#71390

JT

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Re: [Emc-users] New protocol --> reduced real time demand

[John Thornton]

Nope it is still there...

On 3/11/2016 11:02 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> I posted earlier to EMC developers but it seems to have disappeared.
>
> I have been thinking about a new protocol. Ethercat are a perfect real time 
> network there data is inserted while packet is pass thru, actually it is very 
> similar to cascaded shift registers although CRC is also added. I have not 
> studied protocol yet but this kind of network it should be possible to put 
> node sourcing/sending data at any node or vary number of nodes with exactly 
> the same message circulating the network. It would however be possible to 
> achieve something similar for data sent from linuxcnc if multicast is used 
> although only for outputs.
>
> I would propose to put axis position control at motor controller, advantages:
>   1. Motion control would be reduced towards youtube style real time demand 
> since positions could be sent beforehand and buffered.
>   2. Position control could be sent to all nodes with one multicast message.
>   3. If interpolation is used it would be possible to reduce number of 
> messages.
>   4. Divide outputs between several nodes would only affect real time 
> performance for hopefully slow feedback.
>
> Problem would still be the same with inputs although I think most of them 
> have less demand on response time.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in 1 
second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.

JT

On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
> control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own front
> panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one of these
> things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
>
> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is all
> gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and a 125
> volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this cycle of a
> peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small
> fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on
> its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am
> concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
> impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my
> lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is
> between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop
> it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>
> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and motors?
>
> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives would 
use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12 
different braking resistors.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR

JT

On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in
>> 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.
>>
>> JT
> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default of
> 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>
> Thanks John.
>
>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>
>>> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
>>> control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own
>>> front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one
>>> of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
>>>
>>> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
>>> all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and
>>> a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this
>>> cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms,
>>> is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of
>>> rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a
>>> slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse
>>> so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1 because of the
>>> turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its fragile drive train
>>> and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250
>>> running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap
>>> may bottom out and break.
>>>
>>> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
>>> motors?
>>>
>>> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>>>
>>> Thanks all.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
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>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

I'm confused the braking resistor for my drive is $76...

JT

On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
>> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
>> different braking resistors.
>>
> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external
> controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back
> yard?
>
> I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it for
> under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.
>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115
>> _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-
>> z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(
>> VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_
>> Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>>>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev
>>>> in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2
>>>> second.
>>>>
>>>> JT
>>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default
>>> of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>>>
>>> Thanks John.
>>>
>>>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
>>>>> accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with it
>>>>> from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how
>>>>> fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the
>>>>> motor spindle?
>>>>>
>>>>> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
>>>>> all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers
>>>>> and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of
>>>>> this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300
>>>>> rpms, is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30
>>>>> degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500
>>>>> rpms being a slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be
>>>>> able to reverse so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1
>>>>> because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its
>>>>> fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2
>>>>> and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it
>>>>> soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>>>>>
>>>>> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
>>>>> motors?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>>> ---
>>>> ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>>>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>>>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>>>> Click to learn more.
>>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111&iu=/4140
>>>> ___
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>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

I don't know who AT is or what your looking at, the braking resistor for 
the 3hp GS2 is $76 all day long.

Look by the output terminals...

The AD 100 ohm 300 watt braking resistor is $65 part number GS-22P0-BR

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_%28VFD%29_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_%28Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors%29/Braking_Options_%28All_GS_Drives%29/GS-22P0-BR

JT

On 3/13/2016 10:36 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 10:14:26 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> I'm confused the braking resistor for my drive is $76...
>>
>> JT
> AT's quoted prices on their web page, a/o this morning, were uniformly
> all $435 with a note they also needed some sort of a controller
> interface too, price UNK on that.
>
> Looking in the small booklet for this FVD, an ASKPOWER A131, they don't
> offer a lot of data, but do say a 1.5 kw should use a 100 ohm resistor
> that can stand 250 watts for the short duty cycle situation.  But the
> bigger concern is that the braking rsistor terminals P & B, are not to
> be found on the customer interface, nor on the top, logic board in the
> device. Possibly on the power output board, but I haven't dissed it far
> enough to see that if that is where they are.
>
> Can anyone else advise me on this, or do I have a vfd that cannot do
> this?
>
>> On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>>>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
>>>> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are
>>>> 12 different braking resistors.
>>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
>>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
>>> tree in the back yard?
>>>
>>> I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it
>>> for under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.
>>>
>>>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28
>>>> 115
>>>> _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%281
>>>> 15_- z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>>>>
>>>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Driv
>>>> e_(
>>>> VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_
>>>> -a-_ Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>>>>
>>>> JT
>>>>
>>>> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>>>>>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800
>>>>>> rev in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to
>>>>>> 1/2 second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JT
>>>>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers
>>>>> default of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor
>>>>> you used?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks John.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>>>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
>>>>>>> accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with
>>>>>>> it from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of
>>>>>>> just how fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000
>>>>>>> rpm at the motor spindle?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which
>>>>>>> is all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo
>>>>>>> amplifiers and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn
>>>>>>> around depth of this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the
>>>>>>> spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small fraction of a second,
>>>>>>> far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal
>>>>>>> performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am concerned
>>>>>>> that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
>>>>>>> impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.
>>>>>>> On my lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this
>>>>>>> overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running r

[Emc-users] Servos and Drives

[John Thornton]

Does anyone have links to servo/drive suppliers in the US that have the 
plain vanilla velocity drives that we like to use with LinuxCNC?

Thanks
JT

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Re: [Emc-users] Servos and Drives

[John Thornton]

Hi Rick,

I was just looking at Automation Direct, good to hear from someone that 
has used them.

Thanks
JT

On 3/23/2016 7:23 AM, Rick Lair wrote:
> Hey JT,
>
> I used a 3KW system from Automation Direct on our rotary table, and it
> was a pretty seamless install/setup with linuxcnc, and for the price it
> was really reasonable.
>
> Rick
>
> On 3/23/2016 7:46 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Does anyone have links to servo/drive suppliers in the US that have the
>> plain vanilla velocity drives that we like to use with LinuxCNC?
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT
>>
>> --
>> Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785351&iu=/4140
>> ___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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Re: [Emc-users] Servos and Drives

[John Thornton]

Hi Rick,

Does the drive pass the encoder pulse through to the control card?

JT

On 3/23/2016 7:23 AM, Rick Lair wrote:
> Hey JT,
>
> I used a 3KW system from Automation Direct on our rotary table, and it
> was a pretty seamless install/setup with linuxcnc, and for the price it
> was really reasonable.
>
> Rick
>
> On 3/23/2016 7:46 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Does anyone have links to servo/drive suppliers in the US that have the
>> plain vanilla velocity drives that we like to use with LinuxCNC?
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT
>>
>> --
>> Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785351&iu=/4140
>> ___
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>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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[Emc-users] Puzzling Realtime Delay

[John Thornton]

Ian has a computer with my harddrive in it that gives a puzzling real 
time delay. uname -r returns 3.4-9-rtai-686-pae but the dmesg has [
0.00] Notice: NX (Execute Disable) protection cannot be enabled: 
non-PAE kernel!








Thanks
JT
emc@cnc ~ $ dmesg
[0.00] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuset
[0.00] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu
[0.00] Linux version 3.4-9-rtai-686-pae (Debian 3.4.55-4linuxcnc) () 
(gcc version 4.6.3 (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.6.3-1ubuntu5) ) #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 
3.4.55-4linuxcnc
[0.00] BIOS-provided physical RAM map:
[0.00]  BIOS-e820:  - 0009fc00 (usable)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: 0009fc00 - 000a (reserved)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: 000e8000 - 0010 (reserved)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: 0010 - 6ffb6b00 (usable)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: 6ffb6b00 - 8000 (reserved)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: f400 - f800 (reserved)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: fec0 - fed4 (reserved)
[0.00]  BIOS-e820: fed45000 - 0001 (reserved)
[0.00] Notice: NX (Execute Disable) protection cannot be enabled: 
non-PAE kernel!
[0.00] SMBIOS 2.5 present.
[0.00] DMI: Hewlett-Packard HP Compaq dc5850 Small Form Factor/3029h, 
BIOS 786F6 v01.09 04/09/2008
[0.00] e820 update range:  - 0001 (usable) 
==> (reserved)
[0.00] e820 remove range: 000a - 0010 (usable)
[0.00] last_pfn = 0x6ffb6 max_arch_pfn = 0x10
[0.00] MTRR default type: uncachable
[0.00] MTRR fixed ranges enabled:
[0.00]   0-9 write-back
[0.00]   A-B uncachable
[0.00]   C-E3FFF write-protect
[0.00]   E4000-E write-back
[0.00]   F-F write-protect
[0.00] MTRR variable ranges enabled:
[0.00]   0 base 00 mask FF8000 write-back
[0.00]   1 base 007000 mask FFF000 uncachable
[0.00]   2 disabled
[0.00]   3 disabled
[0.00]   4 disabled
[0.00]   5 disabled
[0.00]   6 disabled
[0.00]   7 disabled
[0.00] x86 PAT enabled: cpu 0, old 0x7040600070406, new 0x7010600070106
[0.00] initial memory mapped : 0 - 0180
[0.00] Base memory trampoline at [c009b000] 9b000 size 16384
[0.00] init_memory_mapping: -377fe000
[0.00]  00 - 40 page 4k
[0.00]  40 - 003740 page 2M
[0.00]  003740 - 00377fe000 page 4k
[0.00] kernel direct mapping tables up to 0x377fdfff @ [mem 
0x017f8000-0x017f]
[0.00] RAMDISK: 3572c000 - 36b8e000
[0.00] ACPI: RSDP 000e6c10 00014 (v00 COMPAQ)
[0.00] ACPI: RSDT 6ffc6b40 00040 (v01 HPQOEM SLIC-BPC 20080409  
)
[0.00] ACPI: FACP 6ffc6be8 00074 (v01 COMPAQ HP_RS780 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: DSDT 6ffc6f5f 0971A (v01 COMPAQ DSDT_PRJ 0001 MSFT 
010E)
[0.00] ACPI: FACS 6ffc6b00 00040
[0.00] ACPI: APIC 6ffc6c5c 00084 (v01 COMPAQ HP_RS780 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: ASF! 6ffc6ce0 00063 (v32 COMPAQ HP_RS780 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: MCFG 6ffc6d43 0003C (v01 COMPAQ HP_RS780 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: TCPA 6ffc6d7f 00032 (v01 COMPAQ HP_RS780 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: SLIC 6ffc6db1 00176 (v01 HPQOEM SLIC-BPC 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: HPET 6ffc6f27 00038 (v01 COMPAQ HP_RS780 0001  
)
[0.00] ACPI: Local APIC address 0xfee0
[0.00] 903MB HIGHMEM available.
[0.00] 887MB LOWMEM available.
[0.00]   mapped low ram: 0 - 377fe000
[0.00]   low ram: 0 - 377fe000
[0.00] Zone PFN ranges:
[0.00]   DMA  0x0010 -> 0x1000
[0.00]   Normal   0x1000 -> 0x000377fe
[0.00]   HighMem  0x000377fe -> 0x0006ffb6
[0.00] Movable zone start PFN for each node
[0.00] Early memory PFN ranges
[0.00] 0: 0x0010 -> 0x009f
[0.00] 0: 0x0100 -> 0x0006ffb6
[0.00] On node 0 totalpages: 458565
[0.00] free_area_init_node: node 0, pgdat c1498a00, node_mem_map 
f492c200
[0.00]   DMA zone: 32 pages used for memmap
[0.00]   DMA zone: 0 pages reserved
[0.00]   DMA zone: 3951 pages, LIFO batch:0
[0.00]   Normal zone: 1744 pages used for memmap
[0.00]   Normal zone: 221486 pages, LIFO batch:31
[0.00]   HighMem zone: 1808 pages used for memmap
[0.00]   HighMem zone: 229544 pages, LIFO batch:31
[0.00] Using APIC driver default
[0.00] Detected use of extended apic ids on hypertransport bus
[0.00] ACPI: PM-Timer IO Port: 0xf808
[0.00] ACPI: Local APIC address 0xfee0
[0.0

Re: [Emc-users] Puzzling Realtime Delay

[John Thornton]

He is getting a realtime delay error, I didn't know if the pae line had 
anything to do with it or not. It' puzzling because the latency tests 
don't show anything out of the ordinary.

JT

On 3/23/2016 11:01 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> On 03/23/2016 08:14 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Ian has a computer with my harddrive in it that gives a puzzling real
>> time delay. uname -r returns 3.4-9-rtai-686-pae but the dmesg has [
>> 0.00] Notice: NX (Execute Disable) protection cannot be enabled:
>> non-PAE kernel!
> That's my fault.  After all the work i did on the Linux 3.4/RTAI kernel,
> i actually forgot to enable PAE.
>
> It shouldn't hurt anything, except you can only use the first 3.5 gigs
> or so of RAM.
>
>


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