Re: [EVDL] Wired article - Teslas Can Still Be Stolen With a Cheap Radio Hack

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Nothing new here, this is a relay attack, they still need to be able to get
close to your phone, fob, or card to make it work.   If you are ever
concerned you can either enable "pin to drive" on the screen, or just
disable bluetooth on your phone (phone as key) until you are ready to drive
again.

On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 2:04 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

> https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-ultra-wideband-radio-relay-attacks/?
>
>
>
> Wired Mag has an article about how to steal a Tesla, even the new refreshed
> models-
>
>
>
> Teslas Can Still Be Stolen With a Cheap Radio Hack-Despite New Keyless Tech
>
> Ultra-wideband radio has been heralded as the solution for "relay attacks"
> that are used to steal cars in seconds. But researchers found Teslas
> equipped with it are as vulnerable as ever.
>
>
>
>
>
> Rush Dougherty
>
> TucsonEV
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: seeking a third-party "portable" 120 Volt EVSE that plugs in more flush with the wall, similar to Tesla.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Cor, Note that the original Gen 1 Leaf (Panasonic) EVSE is J1772
non-compliant (doesn't generate the negative-going pilot signal).  Many EVs
will reject this pilot signal.   The G2 unit (slimmer) corrected this, and
it does put out a fully J1772 compliant pilot.

On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 5:45 PM Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> I still have 4 original Nissan LEAF convenience chargers. 2 of those
> have been converted to work on 240V as well, all are still the
> original 12A.
> Some are (well-) used, others are practically new. I bought them to
> convert and sell at a little profit, but now I am happy to just get
> the cost back.
> $100 plus shipping for the well used, 150 for the nicer one.
> All come with the original storage case
> Let me know.
> Cor.
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 9:39 AM Josh Landess via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have one 120/240 EVSE that I bought from Rush years ago and which
> > functions well.  However, I leave that in place at home and am
> > considering buying a second one that I can carry in the car. The Kia EV6
> > that I got does not seem to come with an "extension cord" and I got a
> > quote yesterday on one (more than $500) so I'd like to explore some less
> > expensive third party options.
> >
> > I've seen some Tesla EVSE units that hung from the 120 Volt wall
> > sockets  in a way where they seemed to be more flush with the wall, and
> > so the weight of the equipment appeared to be less of an issue as to the
> > unit staying plugged in properly over a period of time.   Does anyone
> > know of any other third party quality "portable" or "mobile" pieces of
> > EV charging equipment that plug into 120 volt sockets and which plug in
> > such that the plug is more flush with the wall?  Price and quality are
> > both big factors here, since this is a "want" and not a "need".
> >
> > Josh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: seeking a third-party "portable" 120 Volt EVSE that plugs in more flush with the wall, similar to Tesla.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

You should not depend on the outlet to support the EVSE.  Come up with a
solution to take the load off the cable.

On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 9:39 AM Josh Landess via EV 
wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I have one 120/240 EVSE that I bought from Rush years ago and which
> functions well.  However, I leave that in place at home and am
> considering buying a second one that I can carry in the car. The Kia EV6
> that I got does not seem to come with an "extension cord" and I got a
> quote yesterday on one (more than $500) so I'd like to explore some less
> expensive third party options.
>
> I've seen some Tesla EVSE units that hung from the 120 Volt wall
> sockets  in a way where they seemed to be more flush with the wall, and
> so the weight of the equipment appeared to be less of an issue as to the
> unit staying plugged in properly over a period of time.   Does anyone
> know of any other third party quality "portable" or "mobile" pieces of
> EV charging equipment that plug into 120 volt sockets and which plug in
> such that the plug is more flush with the wall?  Price and quality are
> both big factors here, since this is a "want" and not a "need".
>
> Josh
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Uhm, no.  Sorry, you are wrong.  Clearly you are working on assumptions not
actual evidence.

There is no "Blacklist" or "Whitelist".  I have re-enabled supercharging on
over 3000 Teslas since 2015 after Tesla "blacklisted" them.   This is
because the CAR controls the auth, not the supercharger.  If there was this
"blacklist", then all these cars would no longer supercharge.  Prima Facie.

If a Tesla decides it will get supercharging, it does.  Period.   No LTE
connection to the car or the supercharger is needed.   The supercharger
effectively operates as a slave device to the Tesla's BMS.

I have dumps of supercharger code, so I can assure you there is no "list".
  The only thing that happens is the supercharger uploads its logs to
Tesla, when/if it can.  Even if it can't, the station just keeps
operating.  If you don't pay your bill the CAR is what blocks you.

I have never seen a Tesla use DIN 70121 when connected to a supercharger.
It always tries to handshake with SWC first.  The only way it might happen
is if there was a hardware failure blocking SWC.  I have not tested this
scenario.   Tesla has no need to use the inferior PLC because it's much
slower and less reliable.   The way you can tell this is how quickly the
standard supercharge handshake is.  Easily observable compared to the slow
and cumbersome XML over HTTP over TCP/IP over PLC.

Tesla has never publicly released details of the SWC supercharger protocol,
and will likely not.  Again, there is no authentication on this protocol,
so it cannot be used for 3rd party EVs.  Tesla will stick with DIN 70121
for 3rd parties, as most manufacturers have already figured this out.  To
"switch" to NACS, all that's basically needed is to swap the inlet.



On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 11:44 AM Peter Thompson  wrote:

> Yes, older Tesla cars use the single-wire CAN. And yes, older Tesla
> chargers only have the single-wire CAN.
>
> More modern Tesla EVs and EVSEs have the PLC chip and talk both - so they
> can use the older supercharger protocol as well as DIN 70121 and now ISO
> 15118-2. This means that both Tesla EV and EVSE use the DIN 70121 signaling
> as well as the older single-wire signaling.
>
> Note that the single-wire CAN does plug and charge authorization by having
> a white list on the charger, which has to be updated on a regular basis, so
> there is still back-end communication.
>
> Part of what made Tesla seem to reliable is that they owned the entire
> chain, and could debug almost instantaneously. They also put a ton of money
> into maintaining their stations (a mistake other CPOs are now correcting).
> Now they are running into the exact same thing everyone else is - not all
> EVs are programmed the same.  The blame for lack of charging can be spread
> all over the place - EVs, EVSEs, PKI, back-end communications, credit card
> readers - the list is quite long, and quite daunting.
>
> Only reason I know this stuff is that I'm responsible for testing
> Chargepoint equipment with the OEMs.  If you want to see everyone's
> equipment not working right - go to a ChariN Testival - great co-opitive
> environment.
>
> Cheers, Peter
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Well, not exactly; NACS is not CCS because CCS also comprises the connector
spec, but the communications CCS uses is DIN 70121, and NACS for NON TESLA
vehicles also uses the exact same signalling; DIN 70121.   Tesla cars NO
NOT use this!  They use the much simpler and more reliable SWC (Single-Wire
CAN) "Supercharger protocol".  This protocol needs NO back-end auth, so
even if a charging station is offline, a Tesla can still charge there, but
a 3rd party CANNOT.   This will mean the much vaunted reliability of NACS
for Teslas will not directly transfer to 3rd party EVs.   Also; not all
supercharger stations have the PLC Modem needed to talk DIN 70121, so they
will remain Tesla-only until they are upgraded.

On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 7:52 AM Peter Thompson via EV 
wrote:

> I agree about the RF - however, that exact technology hasn't been
> disclosed by Tesla - only reverse engineered by some cable manufacturers.
> :)
>
> However, your second sentence is completely wrong.  NACS *IS* CCS - it
> was designed that way. The only real difference is that it allows AC and
> DC on the same cables.
>
> Cheers, Peter
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The early Teslas would do 80A single-phase, which would get you 20kW.   It
doesn't really make sense to install larger OBCs in an EV that will rarely
get used.  IT made sense before DCFC was widely available, but it's largely
a waste for a normal consumer EV.  Doesn't matter if it's 3-phase or
single, still need the power conversion.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 17 May 2024 at 13:37, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > EU has the 3-phase requirement on AC charging, so there is no elegant
> 2-pin
> > AC/DC sharing like NACS brings to the table.
>
> Three-phase power is nice.  AC charging at 22kW goes fast.
>
> Here 3-phase power is run all over, so if you want it in your home, no
> problem.  Some DIY stores even carry 3-phase main panels.
>
> I never paid much attention to how widely available 3-phase was in the US.
>
> Industrial parks - I assume so.  Stores and businesses - maybe?
>
> I'm pretty sure it wasn't installed in most residential areas.  So US home
> charging is, at most, what, 50A * 80% * 240v = 9.6kW?  I've forgotten a
> lot
> of the NEC. Can you have a branch circuit larger than 50 amps for EV
> charging?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The RF opening thing is a convenience feature.  If it dies, the only thing
that happens is you must (aghast!) open your charge port manually.

If you remove the ridiculously overly complex CCS signalling, the normal
NACS system is beautifully simple.   This is one reason why it's so
reliable.   Signalling-wise, it's very similar to CHAdeMO.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:09 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> The paranoid engineer in my wonders... will any of this super-complex
> over-techie stuff still work in 10 years? Will there be any chance that it
> will be repairable?
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

EU has the 3-phase requirement on AC charging, so there is no elegant 2-pin
AC/DC sharing like NACS brings to the table.  I do believe NACS is
superior, lower-cost, more reliable, and easier to handle.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 1:32 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> Interesting to follow this.  In Europe, there's no adapter problem.  CCS2
> is
> the standard, including for EU Teslas.
>
> CCS2 supports up to 500a / 1000v, though currently the fastest that any EV
> I
> know of can charge is 350kW (Lucid Air).
>
> MCS extends that to 3.75kW (1.25kv, 3ka).
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I do not recommend ANY of these crappy 3rd party adapters.  Both the
Lectron and the A2Z did not implement a full mechanical interlock as
required by the CCS standard.  You can unplug the NACS cable from the
adapter under load, and if this is done there could be an arc flashover
with full battery current behind it that could end very badly.  Obviously
if you have one of these, DO NOT unplug the NACS cable first!  Wait for the
car to release the adapter, THEN disconnect the NACS side.

The OEM adapter made by Tesla does have a mechanical interlock, so you
can't disconnect the NACS plug until the adapter is released from the car
which has a motorized latch to secure it until it's safe.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 7:11 AM Rod Hower  wrote:

> Phil,
> I must have missed your email about the Lectron adapter.  I bought one of
> these for my 2023 Mustang Mach E premium.
> https://a2zevshop.com/products/nacs-ccs1?variant=43186507579592
> What are your thoughts on the A2Z EV shop Typhoon Plug?
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Don't buy that dangerous thing.  I've already posted why.   When GM is
approved for NACS, GM will have the Tesla-built adapter.  Until then it
will not work anyway.

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 3:26 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Say will this work on a Chevy Bolt Level3
>
> Supposedly this will adapt CCS to Tesla or NACS.  Mark
>
> https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-vortex-plug-tesla-supercharger-nacs-to-ccs-adapter
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla USB Music and FM Mystery Over

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The partitioning works fine, but if you have too slow of a drive, it cannot
record dashcam and play music.  Get a quality high-speed drive and it will
work without issue on both.

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 7:43 AM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:

> Hi Folks
> I know it’s fairly minor compared to driving the car but the USB music is
> a nice feature I wanted to get working (not intermittently) on my Tesla Y
> 2021 (91k miles).
> From the Tesla list (great god google), putting the mp3 FAT32 USB 64GB
> drive in the glove box port is the ONLY place it will work consistently
> bumping the cameras sentry mode (tried partitioning but didn’t work
> consistently).  So you get great sorted music, 5000 songs 40gb flash usb
> drive OR camera storage. Not both.  Life is full of trade offs as John
> Lennon would say. Also CRC226 (tuner cleaner from yesteryear) cleans usb
> ports well.
> On the FM dropping out , you have to wait 30 seconds before twiddling with
> the left ball volume control on car start or sometimes the computer won’t
> connect the speakers (then requires a reboot).  So I don’t touch anything
> for a 1/2 minute when I get in the car and start down the road and no audio
> glitches.
> Best regards
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, I've owned a 325 long ago.  What I'm saying is that no matter what
form the conversion takes, it's a lot more time and money than you expect,
almost without exception.  I don't know your skills, but it seems like you
are looking to pay someone to do most of the work, so expect multiple tens
of thousands for a quality job.   I would never advise taking on a
conversion without native skills.  Even if you pay a lot to get it done and
it turns out ok, you still are now beholden to that one person or shop if
anything goes wrong, and chances are almost assured it will.

If the motivation is to save a car with a blown engine and get a low-cost
EV, this is not going to happen.

Sorry to be a downer


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 11:29 AM bill devos  wrote:

> So you probably know the 318 is RWD now.  To put a Tesla motor in the rear
> would require removing transmission and rear pumpkin and reworking the
> connection to the rear wheels, right?  That’s what you’re alluding to
> regarding  engineering, time and money?  Bill
>
> William J. DeVos, AIA
> Architect
> 237 Rockingham Street
> Rochester, NY   14620
> (585) 435-0364
> >
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 12:15 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
>> In this age I declare DC dead.   It would be hard to go wrong if you can
>> cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
>> reliable and efficient units made.   Unless you do something special (such
>> as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
>> especially in local city driving.
>>
>> We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using
>> the Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.   They have been proven to be almost
>> bomb-proof even lugging very heavy vans around.
>>
>> But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of
>> engineering to bring our vans to market.   It's a long project even for
>> someone with deep mechanical and electrical experience.   It can be very
>> rewarding, but it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time
>> (such as being retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay
>> $50k+ minimum)   Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
>> professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.
>>
>> One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
>> transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
>> just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
>> can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
>> lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.   Then there's
>> the transmission...   Plus you get no regen.   Yeah it's mechanically
>> easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe
>>> I did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown
>>> over by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide
>>> whether to go AC or DC?
>>> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah, people doing one-off conversions today are not (should not) be doing
it for "low cost", that's just not possible.  The motivation should only be
borne out of love for the car you want to convert.   In our case, no OEM
has stepped up to make a decent van with good range that's supremely
reliable with a low cost-of-ownership.  When they do, we will probably stop
converting.

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:29 AM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> What is important to keep in mind is that BYD is is now offering a
> Corrola-sized EV for about $15k.
>
> https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/
>
> It is impossible to build your own EV for even double this price, even
> getting all the labor for free.
>
> It would likely be less expensive to buy a brand new $15k BYD and move
> all the components into your motorless BMW. Seriously.
>
> In "days of yor" there were no OEM EVs to be bought, so we built them
> ourselves. This is no longer the case.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[(-Phil-) via EV]

In this age I declare DC dead.   It would be hard to go wrong if you can
cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
reliable and efficient units made.   Unless you do something special (such
as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
especially in local city driving.

We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using the
Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.   They have been proven to be almost bomb-proof
even lugging very heavy vans around.

But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of engineering
to bring our vans to market.   It's a long project even for someone with
deep mechanical and electrical experience.   It can be very rewarding, but
it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time (such as being
retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay $50k+
minimum)   Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.

One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.   Then there's
the transmission...   Plus you get no regen.   Yeah it's mechanically
easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV  wrote:

> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I
> did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over
> by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to
> go AC or DC?
> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Aside from the fact that a '56 Chevy is stone-age compared to modern
technology, how can you make a comparison?

I thought most of the people who bemoaned electronics in cars have died off
by now, or are too old to drive.  Yeah, not everyone gets a UI right, but I
much prefer the UI and systems in a Modern Tesla over anything made even 10
years ago.  One of the best things to happen is all the advanced safety
systems that electronics and modern compute brings to the table.

I suspect commercial FM radio is dying a slow death, it'll last a little
longer than AM, but not much.  I can't stand to listen to anything but NPR
because of the incessant advertising which seems to now make up around 30%
of the airtime.  You (us) geezers better get used to it!  =)


On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 22 Apr 2024 at 19:22, Luke Scharf via EV wrote:
>
> > A high quality antenna and FM receiver might make it better.
>
> Or, you know, a factory radio that you can actually count on to pick up
> radio stations consistently.  Even my dad's '56 Chevy had one.  :-\
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I provided this link 6 days ago, no idea how well it performs, especially
inside the Tesla, which has IR blocking metallic tint in all the glass, so
signals inside the car are weak:  https://amzn.to/3U5lUmq

On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 9:25 PM Luke Scharf via EV 
wrote:

> A device like this is what was suggested:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Transmitter-Receiver-LAICOMEIN-Headphones/dp/B0BDF8S8H4/
>
> Combine it with something like this:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/ZHIWHIS-Portable-Transistor-Conference-Batteries/dp/B08JCNMJKF
>
> Plug it all together, pair it with the car (the car will act as a Bluetooth
> speaker) and you've got a portable system that meets your stated
> requirements.
>
> A high quality antenna and FM receiver might make it better.
>
> There may be an integrated unit that does all of this, but it's hard to
> search for because there are so many bluetooth receivers that then transmit
> a low-power FM signal.  I have seen some HAM radio transceivers which can
> play on a Bluetooth speaker. and I own one that has an FM receiver --maybe
> there's one which has both?
>
> -Luke
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 10:41 PM Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > > In the era of streaming any am or fm radio station, radio reception
> > ability is almost mute.
> > > A simple portable radio hooked to a Bluetooth transmitter is all you
> > need, if you can't stream.
> >
> > Maybe for some people. But I happen to like listening to an actual radio,
> > without having to subscribe to some streaming service.
> >
> > Most cheap portable radios also have worse sensitivity, selectivity, and
> > fidelity than the radios normally put in cars.
> >
> > Lee
> > --
> > Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Playing MP3 USB music in Tesla Y 2021

[(-Phil-) via EV]

You can partition the USB drive into 2 partitions, one for the TESLACAM
stuff, and another for Music/audiobooks.  Here's a how-to:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/v9-how-to-format-usb-into-2-partitions-for-dashcam-and-music-windows.132130/

I put a 256GB USB drive in my car, and it holds hundreds of hours of music
and audiobooks.  Once you do the dual partitions, it will show up as 2
separate drives, so when you connect to your computer, make sure you put
all the music/audiobooks in the non-teslacam one.

On Sun, Apr 21, 2024 at 7:15 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi Folks
> I tried to play a USB flash drive mp3 music in the 4 usc small ports with
> an adapter and no icons showed up.  Asking the great god google -
> recommended to use the USB port inside the glove box that after poking and
> hoping (got a light show and then fart mode working ), then it started
> playing music after asking for a media upgrade (which I ignored).  If I can
> get it working and playing music consistently, won’t it inhibit sentry mode
> or camera data storage mode incase if an accident that uses the flash drive
> inside the glovebox?  The Bluetooth mp3 player works most of the time but
> has a complicated boot up procedure.
>
> The radio/cd player in my 2013 leaf is av*whole* lot simpler!
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> Sent from my iPhone
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I guess I qualify as an old fart now too, but unless I really want to
listen to NPR I either do streaming (free in my Tesla), or put music and
audiobooks on a USB drive and the car plays that (Most cars built in the
last 10 years can do this, and it's free!).

Commercial radio is more advertising now than I can tolerate.

Get off my lawn!   =)

On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 7:49 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Agreed. I only have a cheap pay-as-you-go phone ($99 a year). I only use
> it for calls or texts. If I used it like most people, I'd be paying $99 a
> month for all that "free" data.
>
> The AM and FM radio in my Leaf works just fine, and is free to use.
>
> Lee
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Sorry about that David.  I'll try and remember to trim my replies in the
future. (Starting with this one)  Appreciate your vigilance and work on the
list!

-Phil

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 1:18 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> I'm over here with a plunger and snake, clearing a clog out of the
> listserver.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

trial hydraulics and motors. I did NOT let people just install
> whatever software they wanted and tried my best to vet whatever I did
> run. I didn't trust things I didn't understand.I tried to keep
> things as simple
> as possible so I did understand it. I separated the user interface
> from the real time stuff.
>
> So you say the GUI is hogging memory. Can you run something simple
> like "top"?   Which processes are getting bigger?
> Do you know what they are?   Can you see what their parents are?  Can you
> narrow it down from "leaks" to "process with PID 2345"?  Obviously that's
> the way to start debugging the problem.
> .
> On Thursday, April 18, 2024, 7:12:23 AM PDT, (-Phil-) 
> wrote:
>
>
> I always try to produce good solid code, but it's not defeatist, it's
> reality.  Basically every modern OS and its stack of applications and
> drivers have millions of lines and tens of thousands of developers,
> including a lot of legacy code.   Linux and MacOS are pretty good compared
> to Windoze, but the fact remains, the leaks are there.   I have real-time
> data from about 3000 Teslas (albeit most of them older), and the GUI shows
> marked increases in resource usage and slowdowns after a month or so.
> Usually not a problem for most Tesla owners because as Kevin points out,
> when a software update comes down, there is a required reboot (usually at
> night while you are sleeping).   However, a lot of owners of salvage cars
> connected to my system eschew updates and prefer to stick with the same
> solid release once they find one, so the "free reboot" doesn't happen.
>
> It's no different on a desktop or smartphone either.  The more recent
> devices have so much RAM and CPU that most people aren't going to notice a
> large wastage.   I reboot my phone at least once a month.
>
> How do YOU propose YOU find and eradicate memory leaks without source code
> and root access on your device?  Even if you had all that, are you going to
> spend thousands of man-hours debugging, compiling, optimizing and testing
> to fix it?
>
> The mantra of today's software:  SHIP IT.
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 5:30 AM Lawrence Winiarski <
> lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> That's such a defeatist attitude.   Memory leaks aren't inevitable and
> there are lots of tools to find them.It's the result of shoddy, lazy
> programming, not some fact of nature.  However
> complicated you think the Tesla software is, the Linux OS is much bigger
> project and more complicated and luckily Linus has always had a low
> tolerance for stupid excuses.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2024 at 04:17:39 PM PDT, (-Phil-) via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, you don't HAVE to reboot it.  Same thing for your PC or phone, but all
> modern software on complex systems with a large OS will have some amount of
> memory leaks, so it's always a good idea to do an occasional reboot to
> clear things up.  I've seen Tesla uptimes without reboots of over 2 years,
> but they are usually running like molasses by then.
>
> Comparing the level of compute in a Zoe to the amount in a recent Tesla is
> like comparing the Apollo Guidance computer to a modern PC.  The
> infotainment (main screen) in a Tesla is, in fact essentially a PC running
> Linux.  The autopilot computer adds a level of compute several orders of
> magnitude over that.
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 4:10 PM Rush via EV  wrote:
>
> > Now, now, EV list lackey, calm down... just because it is recommended, it
> > doesn't mean that the sky will fall on your head if you don't do it.
> >
> > My first M3 was bought in 2019 (I just traded it in for the refresh model
> > because the FSD would transfer, a good deal if you ask me) and in those
> > almost 5
> > years I've done a reboot maybe 3 times
> >
> > And I take issue with your blanket statement 'I can't imagine that the
> Zoe
> > is
> > any less computerized than a Tesla'. That, to me, just sounds like
> someone
> > that's saying anything to put down Tesla's.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via
> EV
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 3:41 PM
> > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > > Cc: EV List Lackey 
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla
> > >
> > > On 17 Apr 2024 at 10:27, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's normal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Tesl

Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I always try to produce good solid code, but it's not defeatist, it's
reality.  Basically every modern OS and its stack of applications and
drivers have millions of lines and tens of thousands of developers,
including a lot of legacy code.   Linux and MacOS are pretty good compared
to Windoze, but the fact remains, the leaks are there.   I have real-time
data from about 3000 Teslas (albeit most of them older), and the GUI shows
marked increases in resource usage and slowdowns after a month or so.
Usually not a problem for most Tesla owners because as Kevin points out,
when a software update comes down, there is a required reboot (usually at
night while you are sleeping).   However, a lot of owners of salvage cars
connected to my system eschew updates and prefer to stick with the same
solid release once they find one, so the "free reboot" doesn't happen.

It's no different on a desktop or smartphone either.  The more recent
devices have so much RAM and CPU that most people aren't going to notice a
large wastage.   I reboot my phone at least once a month.

How do YOU propose YOU find and eradicate memory leaks without source code
and root access on your device?  Even if you had all that, are you going to
spend thousands of man-hours debugging, compiling, optimizing and testing
to fix it?

The mantra of today's software:  SHIP IT.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 5:30 AM Lawrence Winiarski <
lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> That's such a defeatist attitude.   Memory leaks aren't inevitable and
> there are lots of tools to find them.It's the result of shoddy, lazy
> programming, not some fact of nature.  However
> complicated you think the Tesla software is, the Linux OS is much bigger
> project and more complicated and luckily Linus has always had a low
> tolerance for stupid excuses.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2024 at 04:17:39 PM PDT, (-Phil-) via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, you don't HAVE to reboot it.  Same thing for your PC or phone, but all
> modern software on complex systems with a large OS will have some amount of
> memory leaks, so it's always a good idea to do an occasional reboot to
> clear things up.  I've seen Tesla uptimes without reboots of over 2 years,
> but they are usually running like molasses by then.
>
> Comparing the level of compute in a Zoe to the amount in a recent Tesla is
> like comparing the Apollo Guidance computer to a modern PC.  The
> infotainment (main screen) in a Tesla is, in fact essentially a PC running
> Linux.  The autopilot computer adds a level of compute several orders of
> magnitude over that.
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 4:10 PM Rush via EV  wrote:
>
> > Now, now, EV list lackey, calm down... just because it is recommended, it
> > doesn't mean that the sky will fall on your head if you don't do it.
> >
> > My first M3 was bought in 2019 (I just traded it in for the refresh model
> > because the FSD would transfer, a good deal if you ask me) and in those
> > almost 5
> > years I've done a reboot maybe 3 times
> >
> > And I take issue with your blanket statement 'I can't imagine that the
> Zoe
> > is
> > any less computerized than a Tesla'. That, to me, just sounds like
> someone
> > that's saying anything to put down Tesla's.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via
> EV
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 3:41 PM
> > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > > Cc: EV List Lackey 
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla
> > >
> > > On 17 Apr 2024 at 10:27, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's normal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Teslas
> > > > every few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI
> > > > fast again.
> > >
> > > That's considered NORMAL?  Seriously?
> > >
> > > Insanity.  You can't expect drivers to reboot their cars "ever;y few
> > weeks."
> > >  I can just imagine how my low-tech other half, Margaret, would react
> if
> > she
> > had
> > > to do that.
> > >
> > > But she's never had any such problem.  We've owned our Renault Zoe EV
> > for over
> > > 4 years and have never had to reboot anything.  It just works.  And so
> > does
> > its
> > > radio.
> > >
> > > I can't imagine that the Zoe is any less computerized than a Tesla.  I
> > suspect
> > that
> > > the Zoe's firmware is just 

Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, you don't HAVE to reboot it.  Same thing for your PC or phone, but all
modern software on complex systems with a large OS will have some amount of
memory leaks, so it's always a good idea to do an occasional reboot to
clear things up.  I've seen Tesla uptimes without reboots of over 2 years,
but they are usually running like molasses by then.

Comparing the level of compute in a Zoe to the amount in a recent Tesla is
like comparing the Apollo Guidance computer to a modern PC.  The
infotainment (main screen) in a Tesla is, in fact essentially a PC running
Linux.   The autopilot computer adds a level of compute several orders of
magnitude over that.

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 4:10 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

> Now, now, EV list lackey, calm down... just because it is recommended, it
> doesn't mean that the sky will fall on your head if you don't do it.
>
> My first M3 was bought in 2019 (I just traded it in for the refresh model
> because the FSD would transfer, a good deal if you ask me) and in those
> almost 5
> years I've done a reboot maybe 3 times
>
> And I take issue with your blanket statement 'I can't imagine that the Zoe
> is
> any less computerized than a Tesla'. That, to me, just sounds like someone
> that's saying anything to put down Tesla's.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 3:41 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: EV List Lackey 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla
> >
> > On 17 Apr 2024 at 10:27, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > It's normal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Teslas
> > > every few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI
> > > fast again.
> >
> > That's considered NORMAL?  Seriously?
> >
> > Insanity.  You can't expect drivers to reboot their cars "ever;y few
> weeks."
> >  I can just imagine how my low-tech other half, Margaret, would react if
> she
> had
> > to do that.
> >
> > But she's never had any such problem.  We've owned our Renault Zoe EV
> for over
> > 4 years and have never had to reboot anything.  It just works.  And so
> does
> its
> > radio.
> >
> > I can't imagine that the Zoe is any less computerized than a Tesla.  I
> suspect
> that
> > the Zoe's firmware is just more thoroughly debugged.  Renault has a long
> history -
> > they're 136 years old - and a hard-earned reputation to protect.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address
> > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  It's the desire to be barbaric that makes governments call their
> >  enemies barbarians.
> >
> > -- Bertolt Brecht
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The tuner is made by Harman.   FM radio does not need AGC in the way you
describe, as long as the discriminator can lock the carrier it will always
decode at the same output level the transmitter modulated it at
originally.   Read up on the basics of FM radio.  If your output level is
varying, yet another indication you may have a defective tuner, or maybe a
bad connection to the glass antenna.

All Tesla service manuals are free, just create a free Tesla login at
tesla.com if you don't have one.
Tuner:
https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-CA1CFB3C-E27A-4060-A10E-C7CEA69A67B6.html

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 2:48 PM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Thanks Phil for the reboot info and FM radio options.  Another radio issue
> I have is lack of AGC automatic gain control (invented in 1928) apparently
> not in the Tesla FM radio as I’m periodically twiddling with the wandering
> volume.
> Say where do they hide the FM radio anyway?
> Best regards
> Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 17, 2024, at 1:28 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> 
> Yes, there are 3 types of reboot:  the approximate 5 seconds scroll wheel
> reboot, this can be done anytime, even while driving, even with Autopilot
> engaged.   Just hold until the screen goes black and release
>
> 2nd type "hard" (or Gateway reboot):  Press and hold brake, hold scroll
> wheels until you see the Tesla logo re-appear.
>
> Actual hard:  (for 3/Y only) Disconnect the negative terminal of the 12v
> battery (will need 10mm wrench) or disconnect the connector for 16v on
> newer cars, then lift the outer corner of the passenger side rear seat
> cushion, lift out the black styrofoam cube, and disconnect the grey
> rectangular connector there until you hear the contactors "clunk", then
> immediately reconnect.  To do this, you need to release the tilting bail
> with a tab, can be done with a fingernail, then the bail will tilt down to
> the right and the body of the connector will rise.  No need to keep going
> any farther once you hear the contactors clunk.  Wait 2 full minutes, then
> without bouncing slide the negative terminal quickly back onto the battery,
> hold it there, wait until you hear the contactors close (clunk CLACK), then
> re-tighten the 10mm.  (or just plug the 16v battery back in on newer)
>
> It's normal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Teslas every
> few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI fast again.
> The other 2 are rare, but try them in  order if you have an issue that the
> 1st one doesn't resolve, such as no LTE.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 10:12 AM Kevin Horton via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> If the Owner's Manual can be believed, the brake pedal is not required.
>> Have you tried that reboot without using the brake pedal?   I did that a
>> handful of times while driving in my early days of Tesla ownership.  I
>> haven't had to do it for two or more years.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> > On Apr 17, 2024, at 13:17, Mark Hanson via EV 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi folks
>> > My FM radio drops out occasionally (usually during an “radio moment” on
>> NPR) and requires pushing in my 2 balls with the brake peddle for reboot
>> which I can’t do while driving (2021 Tesla Y).
>> > Rather than dangling a transistor radio from the rear view mirror (like
>> I did in a 1964 Beetle many moons ago), has anyone wired in a FM stereo to
>> the existing speakers ?  The wire harness looks hard to work on, not like
>> the cars of yesteryear.  Maybe Velcro a Crane radio on the dash?  Last time
>> (today driving to DC) I got NPR streaming on my iPhone (but runs up my data
>> $$ on Ting). Seems like a $55k car should have a working radio even if
>> missing AM and a rear windshield wiper…
>> > Best regards
>> > Mark in Roanoke Va
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, there are 3 types of reboot:  the approximate 5 seconds scroll wheel
reboot, this can be done anytime, even while driving, even with Autopilot
engaged.   Just hold until the screen goes black and release

2nd type "hard" (or Gateway reboot):  Press and hold brake, hold scroll
wheels until you see the Tesla logo re-appear.

Actual hard:  (for 3/Y only) Disconnect the negative terminal of the 12v
battery (will need 10mm wrench) or disconnect the connector for 16v on
newer cars, then lift the outer corner of the passenger side rear seat
cushion, lift out the black styrofoam cube, and disconnect the grey
rectangular connector there until you hear the contactors "clunk", then
immediately reconnect.  To do this, you need to release the tilting bail
with a tab, can be done with a fingernail, then the bail will tilt down to
the right and the body of the connector will rise.  No need to keep going
any farther once you hear the contactors clunk.  Wait 2 full minutes, then
without bouncing slide the negative terminal quickly back onto the battery,
hold it there, wait until you hear the contactors close (clunk CLACK), then
re-tighten the 10mm.  (or just plug the 16v battery back in on newer)

It's normal to need to do the first simple 5 second reboot on Teslas every
few weeks.  Doesn't hurt anything and can make a sluggish UI fast again.
The other 2 are rare, but try them in  order if you have an issue that the
1st one doesn't resolve, such as no LTE.



On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 10:12 AM Kevin Horton via EV 
wrote:

> If the Owner's Manual can be believed, the brake pedal is not required.
> Have you tried that reboot without using the brake pedal?   I did that a
> handful of times while driving in my early days of Tesla ownership.  I
> haven't had to do it for two or more years.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> > On Apr 17, 2024, at 13:17, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks
> > My FM radio drops out occasionally (usually during an “radio moment” on
> NPR) and requires pushing in my 2 balls with the brake peddle for reboot
> which I can’t do while driving (2021 Tesla Y).
> > Rather than dangling a transistor radio from the rear view mirror (like
> I did in a 1964 Beetle many moons ago), has anyone wired in a FM stereo to
> the existing speakers ?  The wire harness looks hard to work on, not like
> the cars of yesteryear.  Maybe Velcro a Crane radio on the dash?  Last time
> (today driving to DC) I got NPR streaming on my iPhone (but runs up my data
> $$ on Ting). Seems like a $55k car should have a working radio even if
> missing AM and a rear windshield wiper…
> > Best regards
> > Mark in Roanoke Va
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

There is no easy solution here.  Admittedly I almost always use streaming
audio on my Tesla rather than FM, but when I have used it, I didn't have
any issues.  You might have a defective radio tuner.  Worth replacing to
see if it fixes your issue.  Anything else you do will be sub-par.

Here's a used tuner module from Ebay for $64:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256481738194

Though one simple thing comes to mind, but again, because it's inside the
car without an external antenna, reception may be sub-par:
https://amzn.to/3U5lUmq
This is a small portable radio with a rechargeable battery that has one
rare feature: It can transmit on Bluetooth.   So you would pair the radio
to the Tesla just like you would a phone, and then use its tuner to
transmit the FM to the car.  You'd also be able to power the radio from the
car's USB port to keep it powered.


On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 9:18 AM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi folks
> My FM radio drops out occasionally (usually during an “radio moment” on
> NPR) and requires pushing in my 2 balls with the brake peddle for reboot
> which I can’t do while driving (2021 Tesla Y).
> Rather than dangling a transistor radio from the rear view mirror (like I
> did in a 1964 Beetle many moons ago), has anyone wired in a FM stereo to
> the existing speakers ?  The wire harness looks hard to work on, not like
> the cars of yesteryear.  Maybe Velcro a Crane radio on the dash?  Last time
> (today driving to DC) I got NPR streaming on my iPhone (but runs up my data
> $$ on Ting). Seems like a $55k car should have a working radio even if
> missing AM and a rear windshield wiper…
> Best regards
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-60? (was: NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

It's always a good idea to use a Hardwired EVSE if you are going to do
daily charging on it.  Safer and more durable (and usually less loss).
Trying to save a few bucks by using a portable EVSE is not worth it.

On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 7:23 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Bill & Phil - Great Ideas!
>
>
>
> If inspector 13 makes me put in a GFCI for a add on 14/50 (when we install
> free solar), I'll go to 14/60 or just hardwire in an EVSE (although $600
> instead of the cheap portable one that comes with the EV).  Virginia has
> held onto 2017 NEC Code for some reason - and hasn't required it - yet.
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> UL Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
>
> <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> 75b8d/signature
> >
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message: 2
>
> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:03:24 -0700
>
> From: "(-Phil-)" mailto:p...@ingineerix.com> >
>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List   >
>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-60? (was: NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE,
>
> EV Charging)
>
> Message-ID:
>
>
>   >
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> I suppose you could also install a 14-60 outlet and just cut the bottom
>
> (neutral) pin off your EVSE's 14-50 plug.   I've done that on many 14-50
>
> portable EVSE plugs, then it fits in a 14-30 Dryer outlet too.  (this pin
>
> is not used on EVSEs)   Just be sure and de-rate the breaker for safety.
>
> (Allowed under code)
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 4:58?PM Bill Dube via EV   > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think the simplest would be to install a NEMA 14-60 with a 60 amp
>
> > breaker, and swap in a NEMA 14-60 cord cap on the charger.
>
> >
>
> > If you are over 50 amps, you are exempt from the NEC GFCI
>
> > requirements, even outdoors. A bit silly, but this is what the NEC
>
> > rules say you can do
>
> >
>
> > You could subsequently make a 14-60 to 14-50 adapter, but that would
>
> > not be legal
>
> >
>
> > Bill D.
>
> >
>
> > PS
>
> >
>
> > The trip limit of 5 mA on a North American GFCI is just plain silly.
>
> > The rest of the world sets the trip limit to 30 mA for GFCI (or
>
> > "Residual Current", as it is called elsewhere.) Hospitals, daycare
>
> > centers, and the like, have lower trip limits, which makes sense in
>
> > those specific locations.
>
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-60? (was: NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I suppose you could also install a 14-60 outlet and just cut the bottom
(neutral) pin off your EVSE's 14-50 plug.   I've done that on many 14-50
portable EVSE plugs, then it fits in a 14-30 Dryer outlet too.  (this pin
is not used on EVSEs)   Just be sure and de-rate the breaker for safety.
(Allowed under code)

On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 4:58 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> I think the simplest would be to install a NEMA 14-60 with a 60 amp
> breaker, and swap in a NEMA 14-60 cord cap on the charger.
>
> If you are over 50 amps, you are exempt from the NEC GFCI requirements,
> even outdoors. A bit silly, but this is what the NEC rules say you can
> do
>
> You could subsequently make a 14-60 to 14-50 adapter, but that would not
> be legal
>
> Bill D.
>
> PS
>
> The trip limit of 5 mA on a North American GFCI is just plain silly. The
> rest of the world sets the trip limit to 30 mA for GFCI (or "Residual
> Current", as it is called elsewhere.) Hospitals, daycare centers, and
> the like, have lower trip limits, which makes sense in those specific
> locations.
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Cor, yes, you are 100% correct, but there are also many shitty EVSEs out
there that aren't "well designed" or even UL listed.  They are all over
Amazon, and people buy more of them every day.

As proof, I have several that were given to me that trip the upstream GFCI
as soon as they are connected, without even needing to connect an EV!
(Assumably the POST is causing it, but I did not verify)

Regardless, I still advise hardwire for all daily use EVSEs, as this is all
too common:  https://ingineerix.com/pic/?melty1450

A capacitive dropper might be safer than a resistor for leakage current
detection, but could also just use the microcontroller to generate a LF AC
signal into a separate test coil (wound more turns).   That would be able
to precisely generate a repeatable test current which doesn't depend on the
incoming AC.

For a recommended wall-mount EVSE, I now steer people to Tesla's
well-designed combo unit that does 48A and both NACS and J1772:
https://shop.tesla.com/product/universal-wall-connector

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 11:17 PM Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Phil,
> NOPE! The *correct* designed EVSE will have a test circuit that indeed
> generates a GFCI test fault current but *only* in the EVSE's GFI
> circuit, not in the upstream 240V connection.
> The reason that an EVSE often trips the upstream GFCI is not due to
> the EVSE but due to the *huge* capacitance in the EV charger inlet
> which can easily cause enough fault current, just like many lab
> equipment has large filter capacitors on their AC input to filter out
> EMC, but at the same time tripping the GFCI to the point that you
> cannot even leave some bench power supplies plugged into the wall,
> even turned off, because their AC filters will happily cause more than
> 5mA current through their heavy capacitors and nuisance-trip the
> breaker.
>
> For the EVSE to test their built-in GFCI protection of the
> *downstream* charging cord, all that is needed is that the test
> circuit connects a wire (and resistor) across the 2 phases of the 240V
> so that there is *no* upstream fault current, and then route the test
> wire through the GFCI detection Current Transformer, so that a one-way
> fault current is introduced of between 20-30mA, while verifying that
> the detection circuit indeed trips on the application of the test
> current. (The GFCI Current Transformer has both phase wires of the
> charging cord routed through it, so that any difference of more than
> 20mA between the two wires - even at 40A or more of charging current -
> will cause a trip of the GFCI detector and disconnect the relay
> contacts that feed the 240V input to the charging cord.)
> In the JuiceBox charging station I only used a 4mA test current, so I
> could use a smaller and cheaper limit resistor, by looping the test
> wire 5x through the GFCI CT coil, so the 4mA was counted 5 times to
> yield the 20mA test current injection to verify the correct operation
> of the GFCI after *every* charging session, as well as during
> boot-selftest. You might notice that the JuiceBox (at least the
> plastic JuiceBox 2) is also UL approved for operation on 110V and it
> was a challenge to make the GFCI test circuit still generate a 20mA
> test current no matter what voltage that the EVSE received. If you
> figure it out, let me know what you found and I will tell you if you
> got it right.
> Cor.
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:14 PM (-Phil-) via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > IIRC, J1772 specs 20ma.  So it will likely put an over 20ma ground fault
> > intentionally during its self test.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:01 PM EV List Lackey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 12 Apr 2024 at 13:35, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> > >
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed..
> > >
> > > Thanks Phil etc
> > >
> > > Sometimes the code doesn't explain why there's certain rules that
> appear
> > > arbitrary (like the 12" cord rule).  The larger units are limited to
> 6'.
> > >
> > > Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure
> how
> > > much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker).  A large chassis
> like
> > > a
> > > car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to
> line)
> > > and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely
> leak
> > > close to 6ma.  Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn't enforced the panel
> GFCI
> > > breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging.
> > >
> > > Best regards Mark
> > >
> > > PS from the moderator - please try to send plain text, folks.  Thanks.
> >

Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging

[(-Phil-) via EV]

IIRC, J1772 specs 20ma.  So it will likely put an over 20ma ground fault
intentionally during its self test.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:01 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 12 Apr 2024 at 13:35, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed..
>
> Thanks Phil etc
>
> Sometimes the code doesn't explain why there's certain rules that appear
> arbitrary (like the 12" cord rule).  The larger units are limited to 6'.
>
> Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure how
> much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker).  A large chassis like
> a
> car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to line)
> and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely leak
> close to 6ma.  Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn't enforced the panel GFCI
> breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging.
>
> Best regards Mark
>
> PS from the moderator - please try to send plain text, folks.  Thanks.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in
>  a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the
>  attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the
>  gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no idea about
>  its authenticity.
>
> -- Terry Pratchett
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, the 12" restriction is because all EVSEs are required to have integral
GFCI protection, but of course this will do no good for wiring "before" the
EVSE, so they mandate this cable is as short as possible.   EVSEs are used
in mechanically hostile environments, so it's likely that a certain
percentage of EVSEs will get mechanical damage to the insulation on their
cords.   If that cord was before the integral GFCI, there would be no
protection, in addition, the cable from the EVSE to the car is electrically
dead until the handshake from the car is completed, so the likelihood of
getting shocked or electrocuted is much lower.   Not so with the cable from
the wall to the EVSE itself.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:05 AM Tom Keenan via EV  wrote:

> NEC article 625.17 has a mention that the input cord length shall not
> exceed 12” if the personnel protection system (GFI?) is located in the EVSE
> enclosure.
> That appears to be an ‘out’ for needing a GFI breaker?  Just speculation.
> Tom Keenan
>
> > On Apr 12, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks
> > When reading the 2020 NEC for a master electrician exam, I noticed
> 210.8(B) says that 50A and below must now have a GFCI breaker at the panel
> that Tesla etc says will cause nuisance trips (see article). 625.54 in the
> EV section further states “All receptacles for EV charging shall have GFCI
> protection.  The article states that hardwired EVSE gets around this
> requirement since the GFCI is contained but I don’t see that in the code
> book.  Anyway I have not installed GFCI protection on EVSE circuits and
> don’t know of electricians here that have since it causes nuisance trips.
> The code looks like using a 60A breaker is a loophole to get around this
> requirement as the Tesla EVSE installation manual recommends (and the fact
> that Teslas can draw up to 48A instead if the typical 30A others use).
> > Say does anyone know why there’s a 12” cord limit on portable EVSE?
> That seems silly unless they’re afraid it might lay on the floor in a water
> puddle.
> > Best regards Mark
> > https://www.seahurst.com/nema-14-50/
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah the EVSE's GFCI is required to self-test, so that self test can trip
an upstream GFCI.  Which means every time you try to charge you get a
nuisance trip.

If you must install a GFCI on your 14-50 because of your local AHJ, try to
obtain a 30ma unit not a 6ma.

Best thing to do is hardwire it so the upstream GFCI is not required.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 10:35 AM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Thanks Phil etc
> Sometimes the code doesn’t explain why there’s certain rules that appear
> arbitrary (like the 12” cord rule).  The larger units are limited to 6’.
> Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure how
> much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker).  A large chassis like a
> car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to line)
> and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely leak
> close to 6ma.  Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn’t enforced the panel GFCI
> breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging.
> Best regards Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 12, 2024, at 12:46 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> 
> Yes, the 12" restriction is because all EVSEs are required to have
> integral GFCI protection, but of course this will do no good for wiring
> "before" the EVSE, so they mandate this cable is as short as possible.
> EVSEs are used in mechanically hostile environments, so it's likely that a
> certain percentage of EVSEs will get mechanical damage to the insulation on
> their cords.   If that cord was before the integral GFCI, there would be no
> protection, in addition, the cable from the EVSE to the car is electrically
> dead until the handshake from the car is completed, so the likelihood of
> getting shocked or electrocuted is much lower.   Not so with the cable from
> the wall to the EVSE itself.
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:05 AM Tom Keenan via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> NEC article 625.17 has a mention that the input cord length shall not
>> exceed 12” if the personnel protection system (GFI?) is located in the EVSE
>> enclosure.
>> That appears to be an ‘out’ for needing a GFI breaker?  Just speculation.
>> Tom Keenan
>>
>> > On Apr 12, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Mark Hanson via EV 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi folks
>> > When reading the 2020 NEC for a master electrician exam, I noticed
>> 210.8(B) says that 50A and below must now have a GFCI breaker at the panel
>> that Tesla etc says will cause nuisance trips (see article). 625.54 in the
>> EV section further states “All receptacles for EV charging shall have GFCI
>> protection.  The article states that hardwired EVSE gets around this
>> requirement since the GFCI is contained but I don’t see that in the code
>> book.  Anyway I have not installed GFCI protection on EVSE circuits and
>> don’t know of electricians here that have since it causes nuisance trips.
>> The code looks like using a 60A breaker is a loophole to get around this
>> requirement as the Tesla EVSE installation manual recommends (and the fact
>> that Teslas can draw up to 48A instead if the typical 30A others use).
>> > Say does anyone know why there’s a 12” cord limit on portable EVSE?
>> That seems silly unless they’re afraid it might lay on the floor in a water
>> puddle.
>> > Best regards Mark
>> > https://www.seahurst.com/nema-14-50/
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> > ___
>> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> >
>>
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] improved "go" pedal design

[(-Phil-) via EV]

It outputs 2 slopes between 0-5v, one is lower than the other.  If your
motor controller can accept one of those as input, it should work.
(Similar to a hall-effect pedal)

On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 4:57 PM Ron Freund via EV  wrote:

> This link points to Phil's 11 min short YT video on the clever design
> Renesas created using their chip, as was implemented by Tesla.  No
> wear-out, rigid and repeatable outputs.
> Perhaps this could be adapted to replace the resistive approach in the
> USELECTRICAR controller??
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrFphMKvuKw
> -Ron
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla settles with family

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The AP (Auto Pilot) architecture in Tesla's current vehicles is complex,
but to break it down, there is what Tesla calls the APE (Auto Pilot ECU)
which has 2 mostly identical processing sections, one as primary and one as
secondary.  They run identical software and if one fails, the other can
instantly take over.  They have internal cross-checking in each of them, so
the "voting" is achieved internally in each unit, and if there is an issue,
the system will instantly fail over to the other unit.  Also, even when you
aren't using AP, the system is "shadow driving" and comparing your inputs
to what it would do, and logging any differences that are periodically
packaged and sent to Tesla.

The APE is totally separate from the MCU (Multimedia Control Unit), which
is what you interact with.  It's on a different circuit board, but sharing
a liquid-cooled housing called the ICE.  The MCU circuit board contains all
the infotainment stuff which is run by an Intel or AMD CPU and then there's
a separate Automotive Power-PC processor called the Gateway.  The interface
to all the other systems in the vehicle is via the Gateway over CAN bus
(multiple buses).  The Gateway is connected to a 16GB Micro SD card where
it uses this to continuously log everything happening on the CAN bus.  This
is totally separate from the other computers, including APE.  Then there is
the MCU.  It also logs all user control inputs to a separate SQLite3
database stored in the MCUs filesystem (on eMMC or NVMe depending on
year).  The APE also has internal logs (so x2).   Then there is the Bosch
RCM (Restraint Control Module) that runs all the safety systems, and this
has an EDR (Event Data Recorder) if there are any accidents, and it will
record those.   Tesla provides a free tool to download your EDR data from
the Bosch RCM after an accident, but they do not release any other data to
the public.  In the event of an accident, the RCM will tell the BMS
(Battery Management System) to blow the pyrotechnic HV fuse in the battery
to "safe" the HV system, and it also triggers an upload of data from all
systems to Tesla, including short video clips from all 9 cameras.  This
data also remains on the various systems and can be extracted without
Tesla's involvement,  but it's not easy.   I have quite a few interesting
crash videos I have recovered from salvage Teslas.  Bosch developed the
RCM, and it's pretty much the same as most other cars, and Tesla did not
write the software here, nor can they obfuscate any data in the EDR, so
it's sort of like an "independent verification".

So in the event of a crash, it's pretty easy for Tesla to reconstruct what
happened, there really is almost zero possibility that there could be a
"dropout" of all logging on all systems at once.  Tesla has but a lot of
redundancies in the system.  The various computers have multiple redundant
power supplies, which are fed from different places in the vehicle, such
that even is you lopped off one whole side of the car, the systems would
still get power from the other.  The RCM even has it's own internal power
reservoir.In addition, all the critical systems in the car, have double
redundancy, such as the electric steering rack, it has 2 separate
controllers, each fed with it's own power feed, driving a dual motor, so if
any one side fails, the other side can keep it going safely until the
vehicle can be brought to a stop.  Likewise, there are 5 ways braking can
be achieved under electronic control, (7 if dual-motor).

Sadly, I've seen a lot of Teslas totaled in accidents I can confidently
surmise are due to pedal misapplication.  (Pressing the accelerator when
you meant to press the brake.)  I myself have done this on several
occasions, and I have recovered logs and video from many salvage cars that
show this very graphically.   All cars have a incidence of pedal
misapplication, but in a Tesla the instant torque and high-performance,
even on the base-models means you are through back wall of your garage
before you know what happened.  Tesla has added some features to mitigate
this, but ultimately the driver can still cause this kind of accident.
People have horrible memories, especially when something like this happens,
and will swear they pressed the brake, when instead the pressed the
accelerator.  There are logs in multiple separate systems, and the
accelerator pedal is a special dual-slope non-contact system that has an
astronomical chance of a failure mode that could result in an erroneous
acceleration signal being sent. (see my YouTube video about this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrFphMKvuKw)

The Pedal misapplication is why most manufacturers include artificial
"creep" behavior, and make it mandatory, as it helps ensure your foot is
already on the brake pedal in the event of panic.   If you are concerned
about safety, I advise you set your Tesla stopping mode to "creep" rather
than "roll" or one-pedal.

While I am critical of Elon Musk, Tesla does great 

Re: [EVDL] want soc spread sheet

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, Zeke is correct.  One of the big problems is that voltage
substantially varies with temperature, health of the pack, and how recently
the pack has been charged/discharged.   This is why all reasonable Battery
Management Systems (BMS) do coulomb counting to determine SoC.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:04 AM Zeke Yewdall via EV 
wrote:

> I am not sure about the leaf batteries in particular, but my experience
> with lithium batteries in general is that voltage cannot be used to
> determine SOC for most of the range between 20% and 90% SOC.  The curve is
> just too flat to be meaningful.  Above 90% and below 20% it gets steeper
> and may give some useful info.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 9:15 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:14, redscooter via EV wrote:
> >
> > > can someone make a spreadsheet
> >
> > What's your budget?  Maybe you could hire a skilled contractor through a
> > "microtask" website.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
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> >
> >  Loop, endless: See endless loop.
> >
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The difference is historically whether there has been a bonded neutral.  My
understanding is this wasn't common in EU until more recently.  (Bonded
means a stake is driven in the ground at your house and connected to one
side of the line that is then designated as the "neutral", meaning it has
no voltage differential (or very little) with respect to the earth.

In the US the "center tap" of the 240v transformer is what is bonded, so
thus each leg is only 120V over the earth.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
> > protected with a breaker.
>
> I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single
> pole,
> and open only the hot side.
>
> Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France.  I think
> that
> historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing
> French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way.
>
> So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in
> my desk lamp is at ground potential.
>
> Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were
> unpolarized.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
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>
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Re: [EVDL] canbus logging, canoe?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Try downloading SavvyCAN, it's FOSS and knows how to import most any format:
https://savvycan.com/


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:12 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> Does anyone know what the .asc Canoe Canbus logging file format is?
> Or has samples of the files that I might be able to figure out?
>
> I'm working with a device via canbus, and the manufacturer won't answer
> ANY question unless it has a .asc or .blf log file with it.
> (Even questions like "What does message 0x00FFDA mean?)
> This is after I had to sign an NDA to get the list of commands it
> accepts, and the ones it sends. (which is apparently an incomplete list.)
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US
constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a
century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not
terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and
switchgear could handle the arcs.  When AC came along, to preserve the same
light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS)

It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made
official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC.


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 1:35 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

>
> We have 240 volt systems of course (stove/dryer and less common nema 6-15
> etc..). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the
> non-us households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
> panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they groundone
> leg as a neutral)
>
> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v
> above ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and
> neutralleg.
>
>
>On Monday, March 11, 2024, 12:46:12  PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and
> most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they
> are.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
lower voltage.   In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal.   I'd
definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
everywhere.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > the world.
>
> Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> Korea.
>
> Some of them look like old USA practices.  Example: junction boxes aren't
> usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
>
> I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
> surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
> appeared
> to be a recent installation.
>
> Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
> 6kW
> or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years.  Spain has a lot
> of
> 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.
>
> On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> nations,
> the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I don't know if most know this, but the NEC (National Electrical Code) is
written by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association).  That is an
organization mainly driven by fire insurance underwriters.  We thus have an
electrical code carefully constructed and revised to reduce insurance
claims, regardless of cost or complexity.  Based on what I know, it's one
of the most rigorous codes in the world.

Individual States and local AHJs (Authorities Having Jurisdiction) decide
which version of the NEC to enforce, and sometimes add or modify it for
particular local conditions and practices.

Even if you live in an area without much enforcement, if you ever have a
fire because you did some shortcut in violation of NEC, you can bet the
insurance investigator will find it, as they spend a lot of time and effort
to find ways to deny claims.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:24 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> First, breakers themselves really don't care which way the power is
> flowing. I can't think of anything about a breaker that would behave
> differently if the power flows in or out of the bus bars.
>
> VERY large breakers need power on the input side to rewind the trip
> mechanism. Even then, you simply must rewind them with the manual crank
> if you are in a no power situation. (You can't reset them if they aren't
> rewound.) Aside from that, they also don't care which way the power flows.
>
> I can't recall ever seeing a bus bar overheat due to overloading. I
> suspect that the bus bars can take far more than the main breaker
> current. Keep in mind that temperature is the issue. The ohmic heating
> and the ambient temperature must cause the bus bar to rise to the point
> where the insulation will be damaged. Each breaker that you attach to
> the bus bar will both draw more current (perhaps) but will also help
> wick heat away from the bus bar.
>
> I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter,
> somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the
> far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar
> would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think
> about this for a moment or two.)
>
> Even if you were to put the solar breaker in the middle of the panel,
> the bus bars are not very likely to see a load greater than the main
> breaker current, because the circuits between the solar breaker and the
> main are drawing current. This draw is likely to be more than the solar
> breaker is supplying to the panel. Typically (but not always) it is
> general practice to install the larger current breakers near the top of
> the panel, near the main breaker.
>
>   I would guess that under any normal circumstances, the odds of a bus
> bar over load are vanishingly small, particularly if you don't place the
> solar breaker near the very top of the panel.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 3/11/2024 5:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> > I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it,
> but maybe some don't.
> > Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some
> electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used
> to back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually
> look the other way.
> >
> > The problem is as follows.
> > Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker
> at the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine
> that you have a 40 amp solar.
> > So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance
> and you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the
> main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40
> amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from
> the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.
> But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially
> seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so
> now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't
> flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps.
> > So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they
> are rated for.
> > The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps
> but almost nobody does that.
> >
> > But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not
> really correct.
> > Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to
> a solar panel not being entirely kosher.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The NEC definitely accounts for this since 2011, and I know from experience
AHJs enforce it.   (705.12 D 2)

There are 2 ways:
1. Derate: Replace the main with a lower amperage, or:
2. End Feed: Install the solar breaker at the opposite end of the busbars
and put a sign that states: "SOLAR PV BREAKER - BREAKER IS BACKFED, DO NOT
RELOCATE!"

Most brands of panels also now over-rate the busbars for this reason on at
least some of their models.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski <
lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it,
> but maybe some don't.
>
> Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some
> electrical rules.   The reason is that
> breakers were not intended to be used to back feed power, but that is the
> easiest way, so the code people
> actually look the other way.
>
> The problem is as follows.
>
> Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker at
> the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.
> Further imagine that you have a 40 amp solar.
>
> So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance
> and you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the
> main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40
> amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from
> the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.
> But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially
> seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so
> now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't
> flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps.
>
> So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are
> rated for.
>
> The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps
> but almost nobody does that.
>
> But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not
> really correct.
>
> Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a
> solar panel not being entirely kosher.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah, NEC requires a GFCI for all outdoor outlets.  If you hardwire an EVSE
in, you don't need it, as the EVSE contains its own.

A common use for 15-50's outdoor is powering RV shore power.


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 7:04 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> The NEC has changed through the years regarding GFCI protection.
>
> 120vac outdoor outlets were required to be GFCI protected since ~1972.
>
> In the '80s when I worked as an electrician, outdoor 240 volt NEMA 14-50
> outlets were not required to be GFCI protected, but when used to power a
> hot tub, or near a pool, they were required to be GFCI protected.
> However, the newest NEC regulations require, as I understand it, all
> outdoor outlets up to 50 amps be GFCI protected. (I suppose you could
> put in a 60 amp breaker to get around the regulation...)
>
> You should not even mention that an EV might use this outlet. It is
> simply an outdoor NEMA 14-50 outlet. Perhaps for a welder, or ???
>
> The NEC has become more strict in the past 40 years. :-)
>
> Depending on the brand of panel, 50amp 240V two-pole GFCI breakers are
> not insanely expensive. Typically $100 to $150. (For a Scheneider brand,
> they can cost over $400, however.) Choose your brand of sub-panel panel
> based on your breaker cost. :-) I would put the GFCI breaker so that is
> is handy to the outlet so you can easily reset it. At 5 mA trip
> threshold, you are likely to have to reset it with regularity. :-)
>
>   GFCI rant <<<
>
> In the USA, the GFCI is set at an insanely low trip threshold of 5 mA.
> This is a bit of overreach by the NEC folks. It was initially set far to
> conservatively and they can't go up now that they have set the standard
> at 5 mA.
>
> In NZ, and other parts of the civilized world, the ground fault (or
> residual current) trip threshold is 30 mA.  For context, it takes about
> 100 mA, directly across the chest of a healthy adult to cause a fatal
> shock. Small children and adults with unhealthy hearts, have a lower
> threshold than 100 mA. Thus, in hospitals, daycare facilities, etc. they
> set the requirement at 10 mA for devices with in their reach.
>
> The base voltage in NZ, and most of the world, is 230V. This actually
> doubles the chance of getting the critical 100 mA jolt across the chest,
> but 30 mA is is still a safer option. First, the threshold is 1/3 of
> what is considered the lowest fatal shock current. Next, a shock
> directly across the chest is quite rare. You have to touch something of
> opposite electrical potential with each hand or arm. This is a _very_
> rare occurrence.
>
> The consequence of 5 mA threshold is nuisance tripping. Indeed, less
> trip current is "more safe" than more, I suppose, but it is impractical
> to apply GFCI to more that select parts of the house (and to the
> business.) In contrast the ENTIRE house is protected by GFCI in NZ under
> the modern NZ electrical code. Your electric range is GFCI protected, as
> are all your appliances, and every light fixture. Every outlet in the
> entire house is GFCI protected. You have one GFCI 30 mA breaker to cover
> the entire house, and it rarely trips. If the trip was 5 mA, this would
> be completely impractical as the nuisance tripping would make normal
> activities impossible. A hair dryer could easily darken your entire house.
>
> I should note that commercial settings also have (with some exceptions)
> this facility-wide 30 mA GFCI protection on everything, under the modern
> electrical code.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 3/11/2024 10:55 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> >> Hi Folks
> >> I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> > I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> >> Best regards Mark
> >> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The subpanel you would install there would have 3 breakers:  All
"dedicated":  1. For the Solar inverter(s), 2. For your 120v outlet, and
3. for your 14-50.  The feed from the main panel is no longer a "solar
feed", it's a "subpanel feed", this is what makes it legal.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 6:11 PM  wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
>
>
> The 20A 120VAC courtesy outlet is on a 20A breaker at the ground mount
> array that we put on most volunteer solar jobs that pass inspection.  I
> don't see why a 240VAC on a 50A breaker tapped off (at the array or home)
> would be any different.
>
>
>
> The NEC code says the solar circuit is on a single dedicated line  - same
> for an EV charging circuit, so technically solar arrays shouldn't have
> *any* courtesy outlets on them even though they pass inspection.  The
> garage tap-off for solar seems like the same fudge since that's not
> dedicated either - but passes inspections & local electricians tell me that
> both are ok.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* (-Phil-)
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 6:07 PM
> *To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> *Cc:* Mark Hanson 
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array
>
>
>
> Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the
> breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a
> proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely
> get 50A even at night, and even more during the day!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Hi Folks
> > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > Best regards Mark
> > Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, you'd need a subpanel, as any outlets you add could get 50A from the
breaker PLUS whatever your solar is generating.  The 120v outlet without a
proper breaker to limit current is super dangerous, as you'll definitely
get 50A even at night, and even more during the day!

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:56 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

>
> >
> > Hi Folks
> > I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer
> adds a 14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV
> charging). We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and
> pass inspection even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit
> (also tap off garage circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find
> anything direct on Google if it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet
> like we do a 120V outlet on the same 50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know
> if this is ok/code compliant?
> I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since
> there’s two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.
> > Best regards Mark
> > Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: How to get a free Tesla

[(-Phil-) via EV]

This is a very low probability vulnerability.  Obviously always be careful
where you enter credentials.

On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 1:14 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
wrote:

> It's a common man-in-the-middle attack, and you don't need a Flipper Zero
> to do it, any PC, laptop, even a cellphone could do the same. See also:
> Phishing attacks at coffee shops and the like.
>
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 13:57, EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > The subject line is a bit frivilous, but actually I guess that this is
> > potentially serious.
> >
> > -
> >
> > "Security researchers report they uncovered a design flaw that let them
> > hijack a Tesla using a Flipper Zero, a controversial $169 hacking tool
> ...
> >
> > "Using a Flipper, the researchers set up a WiFi network called 'Tesla
> > Guest,' the name Tesla uses for its guest networks at service centers ...
> >
> > "[The thief] could broadcast the network near a charging station, where a
> > bored driver might be looking for entertainment. The victim connects to
> > the
> > WiFi network and enters their username and password on the fake Tesla
> > website. The [thief] then uses the credentials to log in to the real
> Tesla
> > app, which triggers a two-factor authentication code. The victim enters
> > that
> > code into the fake website, and the thief gains access to their account.
> > Once you´re logged into the Tesla app, you can set up a "phone key" which
> > lets you unlock and control the car over Bluetooth with a smartphone.
> From
> > there, the car is yours."
> >
> > Yikes.
> >
> > Full story:
> >
> > https://jalopnik.com/want-to-steal-a-tesla-try-using-a-flipper-zero-
> > 1851316625
> >
> > Or https://v.gd/FPzvOL
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  I asked a man in prison once how he happened to be there and
> >  he said he had stolen a pair of shoes. I told him if he had
> >  stolen a railroad he would be a United States Senator.
> >
> > -- Mary Harris Jones
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
>
> --
> Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The EV Pipeline to Eastern Europe

[(-Phil-) via EV]

How did he find you?  That's some good sleuthing!

On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 9:23 AM Rush via EV  wrote:

> FYI - I got my first Tesla, Standard, in July of 2019, drove it for a
> couple
> months before it got hit on driver's side and was totaled (got such a
> great Ins
> deal that I bought a Standard+). A couple months later got an email from
> someone
> in Jordan asking if I had the key card since they couldn't start the car
> without
> it. He said that he bought it at an auction for $18,000, had it shipped to
> Jordan, had all the damaged parts replaced but couldn't start the car
> without
> the key card. So I rummaged around, found it, and sent it to a Canadian
> Embassy
> PO Box. He emailed me later saying it was working and thanking me.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2024 5:50 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: EV List Lackey 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The EV Pipeline to Eastern Europe
> >
> > On 5 Mar 2024 at 1:19, paul dove via EV wrote:
> >
> > > I donTMt think itTMs fear. ItTMs resale. Used EVs are cheap here so no
> > > reason to buy a wrecked one.
> >
> > You might want to follow the link and read the original article again.
> I may
> be
> > mistaken, but I think that you've missed one of its main points.
> >
> >
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-reincarnation-of-totalled-teslas-in-
> > ukraine/
> >
> > Shortcut: https://v.gd/dCw1nJ
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address
> > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel
> >  like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some
> >  humorous comments on lava.
> >
> >-- Tom Lehrer = = = =
> = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Chart shows energy production from 2000 to today. All time high in all sectors.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

No, your "URL" is a link to a screenshot on your Android phone:
content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/17092298868012859034650023581248.png

Don't send screenshots, send a link to the original content.



On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 1:03 PM Lawrence Rhodes 
wrote:

> Anyone can cut and paste or copy the url to view the chart which was
> surprising. If it's blue it is clickable. Lawrence Rhodes
>
> On Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 10:42:26 AM PST, Phil <
> p...@ingineerix.com> wrote:
>
>
> You cannot attach images to emails for the mailing list like that.
> Please provide a link.   I'm happy to host it also.
>
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 10:24 AM Lawrence Rhodes <
> primobass...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> The below chart shows energy production with dips and peaks seemingly to
> follow administrations, wars and the pandemic. Big peak before the
> pandemic. It seems the USA is selling a lot of oil. However the highest
> production was renewables almost always. Now all sectors are at all time
> highs. Obviously recovering after the pandemic. Is part of this the USA
> replacing Russian oil? Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/17092298868012859034650023581248.png
>
> _._,_._,_
> --
> Groups.io Links:
>
> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>
> View/Reply Online (#3038)  | Reply
> To Group
> 
> | Reply To Sender
> 
> | Mute This Topic  | New Topic
> 
> Your Subscription  | Contact
> Group Owner  | Unsubscribe
>  [
> p...@ingineerix.com]
> _._,_._,_
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Chart shows energy production from 2000 to today. All time high in all sectors.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

You cannot attach images to emails for the mailing list like that.   Please
provide a link.   I'm happy to host it also.

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 10:24 AM Lawrence Rhodes 
wrote:

> The below chart shows energy production with dips and peaks seemingly to
> follow administrations, wars and the pandemic. Big peak before the
> pandemic. It seems the USA is selling a lot of oil. However the highest
> production was renewables almost always. Now all sectors are at all time
> highs. Obviously recovering after the pandemic. Is part of this the USA
> replacing Russian oil? Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/17092298868012859034650023581248.png
>
> _._,_._,_
> --
> Groups.io Links:
>
> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>
> View/Reply Online (#3032)  | Reply
> To Group
> 
> | Reply To Sender
> 
> | Mute This Topic  | New Topic
> 
> Your Subscription  | Contact
> Group Owner  | Unsubscribe
>  [
> p...@ingineerix.com]
> _._,_._,_
>
>
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[EVDL] US Army pays for Rivian R1T high-speed crash

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I guess the Army is worried the Taliban and Houthi are going to switch from
their favorite Toyota trucks to EVs soon and try to drive them into their
bases:

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyagXYK6x2M

Article:
https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/nebraska-experts-weigh-highway-safety-and-electric-vehicles/
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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Here's a pic after they were the first ones to finish in the EV class:
http://ingineerix.com/pic/?kohev1

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 6:15 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:

> A friend of mine helped them with that project.
>
> Live map of King of the Hammers:
> https://cf.yb.tl/koh2024_5#
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:47 PM Brett Davis via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
>> traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman
>> Challenge
>> at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
>> their garage, with the help of friends.
>>
>> Very cool that they have an EV class.
>>
>> https://kingofthehammers.com/
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>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[(-Phil-) via EV]

A friend of mine helped them with that project.

Live map of King of the Hammers:
https://cf.yb.tl/koh2024_5#

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:47 PM Brett Davis via EV  wrote:

> Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
> traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman Challenge
> at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
> their garage, with the help of friends.
>
> Very cool that they have an EV class.
>
> https://kingofthehammers.com/
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>
>
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[EVDL] MIT's new colbalt-free battery tech

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Really looks like it's got awesome potential if true and there's no hidden
caveats:  (Other than the fact that it appears Lamborghini/VW has the
patent rights.)
https://news.mit.edu/2024/cobalt-free-batteries-could-power-future-cars-0118

Highly detailed write-up:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acscentsci.3c01478
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla ; Frozen door handle fix (app)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

LOL, I guess they beat me to it!I looked in the Tesla app for this, and
I don't see it on my car, but I also have my car running somewhat older
software by choice, so I'd probably need to update to get that feature.

On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:54 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Phil wrote: ).  "One easy fix Tesla could make on these is to add door open
> command from the app, that way if the handle is covered in ice, you could
> still pop the door without even having to touch it.  The exterior door
> handles are literally just a switch, and a grab handle to pull on the
> door."
>
> It looks like they added a app to open the frozen door handle on the 3/Y in
> cold weather:
> https://www.tesla.com/support/winter-driving-tips
>
> I haven't tried it yet, just did the ye-old hot water on door handle trick
> last night.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mark in cold Roanoke, VA
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 12:55:05 -0800
> From: "(-Phil-)" 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Was Tesla Designed in California? :-/ - Fixed Cold
> Weather Frunk Hood Latch Stuck
> Message-ID:
> <
> cahenfdpceiqnr8eotuezgrm7_msmuscox8oqowe-njqc8oe...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I know a few engineers that are/were at Tesla, and not only did they do
> environmental chamber tests, but also Alaska and Death Valley in
> winter/summer.   I don't know any other particulars.   However, No amount
> of testing can cover every situation of course, and there is a difference
> between how a new car acts in extreme environments and how it acts in those
> after it's aged somewhat.
>
> I think Tesla made a mistake on the door handles on the Model S, but I'm
> pretty happy with the ones on the Model 3 (same as Y).  One easy fix Tesla
> could make on these is to add door open command from the app, that way if
> the handle is covered in ice, you could still pop the door without even
> having to touch it.  The exterior door handles are literally just a switch,
> and a grab handle to pull on the door.
>
> If you are a California engineer who has never lived in areas with poor
> weather, it's hard to imagine all the requirements as well as one from
> Detroit.  I also lived in suburban Detroit in my younger years, so I know
> what it's like.  I'm glad I don't live there anymore, and I'm glad I don't
> have to engineer automotive closure systems.  =)
>
> I'm glad I live in a good climate, and in the rare instance it's not, I
> have
> a garage.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 11:44?AM Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On cold-testing cars...
> >
> > I grew up in Michigan, at a time when the US auto industry was king.
> > Friends of mine worked for various automakers. They each had huge
> > environmental test chambers that could be adjusted for anything from
> > -40 deg.F deep freezes to 140 deg.F deserts, howling winds, blizzards,
> > driving rain, and altitudes from Death Valley to Pike's Peak. That
> > way, they could find out how their cars would fare with weather in the
> real world.
> >
> > This headed off many problems, at least when the cars were new. But as
> > you might expect, there were cases where the environmental chambers
> > were over-booked, or someone changed a part without re-testing, or
> > testing one car didn't reveal that 50% of that model would have problems.
> >
> > A friend related one incident where there was a blizzard and -40 deg.F
> > temperatures forecast for Houghton MI. GM had engineers drive a few
> > cars up there for testing. They stayed at a motel, and the next
> > morning, none of the cars would start. Not from a battery problem; but
> > because the emission control computers were dead. My friend opened up
> > the emission control computer, placed his hand on the chips to warm
> > them up, and the car started. It turned out that a one hour at -40
> > deg.F wasn't long enough to cool everything down; but overnight was.
> >
> > Big companies only tend to learn from their own mistakes (not others).
> > The traditional automakers have learned their lessons over a very long
> time.
> > The engineers would complain about stupid tests that only held things
> > up, but that were mandated to prevent past mistakes.
> >
> > Tesla is a young company. Perhaps they don't yet see the reasons to do
> > much environmental testing. So it's going to take them time to make
> > their own mistakes, and learn from them.
> >
> > Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >
> > ___
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Was Tesla Designed in California? :-/ - Fixed Cold Weather Frunk Hood Latch Stuck

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I know a few engineers that are/were at Tesla, and not only did they do
environmental chamber tests, but also Alaska and Death Valley in
winter/summer.   I don't know any other particulars.   However, No amount
of testing can cover every situation of course, and there is a difference
between how a new car acts in extreme environments and how it acts in those
after it's aged somewhat.

I think Tesla made a mistake on the door handles on the Model S, but I'm
pretty happy with the ones on the Model 3 (same as Y).  One easy fix Tesla
could make on these is to add door open command from the app, that way if
the handle is covered in ice, you could still pop the door without even
having to touch it.  The exterior door handles are literally just a switch,
and a grab handle to pull on the door.

If you are a California engineer who has never lived in areas with poor
weather, it's hard to imagine all the requirements as well as one from
Detroit.  I also lived in suburban Detroit in my younger years, so I know
what it's like.  I'm glad I don't live there anymore, and I'm glad I don't
have to engineer automotive closure systems.  =)

I'm glad I live in a good climate, and in the rare instance it's not, I
have a garage.


On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 11:44 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> On cold-testing cars...
>
> I grew up in Michigan, at a time when the US auto industry was king.
> Friends of mine worked for various automakers. They each had huge
> environmental test chambers that could be adjusted for anything from -40
> deg.F deep freezes to 140 deg.F deserts, howling winds, blizzards, driving
> rain, and altitudes from Death Valley to Pike's Peak. That way, they could
> find out how their cars would fare with weather in the real world.
>
> This headed off many problems, at least when the cars were new. But as you
> might expect, there were cases where the environmental chambers were
> over-booked, or someone changed a part without re-testing, or testing one
> car didn't reveal that 50% of that model would have problems.
>
> A friend related one incident where there was a blizzard and -40 deg.F
> temperatures forecast for Houghton MI. GM had engineers drive a few cars up
> there for testing. They stayed at a motel, and the next morning, none of
> the cars would start. Not from a battery problem; but because the emission
> control computers were dead. My friend opened up the emission control
> computer, placed his hand on the chips to warm them up, and the car
> started. It turned out that a one hour at -40 deg.F wasn't long enough to
> cool everything down; but overnight was.
>
> Big companies only tend to learn from their own mistakes (not others). The
> traditional automakers have learned their lessons over a very long time.
> The engineers would complain about stupid tests that only held things up,
> but that were mandated to prevent past mistakes.
>
> Tesla is a young company. Perhaps they don't yet see the reasons to do
> much environmental testing. So it's going to take them time to make their
> own mistakes, and learn from them.
>
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery packs and UPS options?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

FYI, I forgot to mention, you can drop the Tesla drive unit and replace the
bearings in there to get rid of the milling noise.   I have done it.

Sadly it doesn't last forever because of a flaw in the design that was
fixed in later revisions, but I've seen them do 60k miles.

The Rav4EV is still a better car than a powerwall.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:02 AM fred via EV  wrote:

> As much as I like to do DIY stuff, -Phil-'s suggestion is wise. It would
> have grated to have to hire muscle making it less DIY after all. The
> insurance aspect escaped my alleged mind and certainly is an important
> aspect. It's not like I have a hunting cabin in the woods, which still
> would not justify the risk and difficulty.
> This idea becomes immediately abandoned.Thanks very much for the input. I
> like also things that result in less work for me!
>
> **Original Message: 6
> From: "(-Phil-)" 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>
> As much as I like to see DIY stuff, I'd recommend you just sell your Rav4EV
> and use that to add some powerwalls.  Not only is it a lot of work to make
> something like this, it's also difficult to make it safe, and if something
> bad happens and you have a house fire, you don't want the insurance company
> denying your claim because you hooked a non-approved home-brew device to
> your home's electrical system w/o permits, etc.
>
> The main problem is there are no good off-the-shelf solutions for inverters
> with a proper control system.  In addition, unless you fully
> reverse-engineer the Tesla BMS in there, you'll have to roll-your-own, and
> it's hard to do that safely, let alone easily and/or affordably.
>
> End of Original Message: 6
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Re: [EVDL] Battery packs and UPS options?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

As much as I like to see DIY stuff, I'd recommend you just sell your Rav4EV
and use that to add some powerwalls.   Not only is it a lot of work to make
something like this, it's also difficult to make it safe, and if something
bad happens and you have a house fire, you don't want the insurance company
denying your claim because you hooked a non-approved home-brew device to
your home's electrical system w/o permits, etc.

The main problem is there are no good off-the-shelf solutions for inverters
with a proper control system.  In addition, unless you fully
reverse-engineer the Tesla BMS in there, you'll have to roll-your-own, and
it's hard to do that safely, let alone easily and/or affordably.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 2:47 PM fred via EV  wrote:

>  Within six months (my wife's retirement), we will no longer need one of
> the two EVs in our fleet of Rav4EVs (contemporary, not legacy). I feel the
> resale value is low, due to a turbine song from the power plant, confirmed
> by coolant speckles on the speed sensor. If it survives to the date, we'll
> need only one vehicle. If not, I'll be pressed into chauffeur duty for the
> interim with my not-yet-checked Rav4EV.
> With such a low value for the humming Rav4EV, I'm considering repurposing
> the vehicle as a UPS but it must be an off-street-legal integration, as
> opposed to a street-legal one which I think only applies to V2G vehicles
> currently in production.
> What options exist to provide the equivalent of a Tesla PowerWall from the
> removed pack of this Rav4EV? Rather than fill up this vehicle oriented
> forum, perhaps a viewer can redirect me to a suitable forum? Also, I feel
> it's important to note that we have a PowerWall and 9Kw of solar PV and it
> would be great to make this all work together. I have real estate on the
> south wall adjacent to the PowerWall, no windows, power meter and primary
> cut-off all in the same location.
> Due to limited physical capabilities, I'll probably have to pay for
> muscle, but parting out the shell may provide for funding. This will be
> July 2024 or later, temperatures in Florida will be inversely uncomfortable
> compared to today in most of the USA.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Inverters on EVs for UPS to power mini splits, refrigerators etc, Tesla E-fuse Amps trip point?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I already explained why you can't:  The LV battery has an amp shunt on it
to watch the total amount of amp-hours in/out (coulomb counting).  This
isn't limited to just Teslas either, or even EVs.  Most cars now do this to
implement a proper 3-stage charging algorithm rather than just waste energy
splitting excess charge into hydrogen and oxygen and letting the
lead-calcium cycle recombine them.   It actually saves a lot of wasted
energy, and (if implemented correctly) extends the life of the LV battery.

On most cars they put the amp shunt on the negative terminal, so as long as
you ground your inverter PAST this somewhere on the chassis, you are good.
By taking power directly out of the battery, it may cause the car to not
properly charge the LV battery, which can shorten its life (and/or you end
up with a dead battery!)

No, the PCS feed is separated by a few amp shunts and banks of MOSFETs.
Tesla doesn't use diodes anywhere in that path.  Even the DC-DC converter
in the PCS is rectified synchronously.   When every mile counts, you don't
want wasted power as heat.

So unless you know FOR SURE that you aren't bypassing any battery current
shunts, you shouldn't connect external loads to the LV battery.   The
battery isn't the source anyway, it's the DC-DC, so you lose less power and
stress out your inverter less by picking up these high loads as close to
the DC-DC as possible.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 2:36 PM  wrote:

> Thanks Phil for the informative reply.
>
>
>
> I guess I don't understand why you can't pull the 175A(max) directly off
> the 3/Y easier access 12V battery point like I *can* in the Leaf and Bolt
> EV?
>
>
>
> Isn't the PCS (DC-DC) access point the same (electrically like other EVs)
> or is there a big Schottky isolation diode in between?
>
>
>
> Since I have a Bolt-EV (simpler option), I'll probably just use it - if I
> get the urge to run my mini-split when the power goes out.  You would
> think, spending $50K+, Tesla would make this simpler.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> *From:* (-Phil-)
> *Sent:* Friday, January 19, 2024 4:58 PM
> *To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> *Cc:* markehans...@gmail.com
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Inverters on EVs for UPS to power mini splits,
> refrigerators etc, Tesla E-fuse Amps trip point?
>
>
>
> This depends on the Model of course, but on 3/Y you should be able to pull
> 175a continuously if you shut off most high-current accessories and you
> pull from the PCS (DC-DC) output line directly.  You cannot pull ANYTHING
> directly from the LV battery, as it will affect the coulomb-counting and
> can affect the LV battery lifetime as well as generate alerts that Tesla
> will know about, and has used as grounds to void the warranty on the PCS.
>
>
>
> The PCS feed terminal is available under the rear-seat lower cushion on
> the passenger side.   Note that you cannot leave an inverter with a large
> amount of capacitance connected to this 24/7, as when the car attempts to
> wake from a deep sleep it can fault when it tries to power this rail up.  A
> safe/easy way to handle this is install a large Anderson connector here,
> and then only connect the inverter when needed, and preferably with a
> precharge.  If you wanted to leave this connected permanently, I would
> install a contactor that is powered from an accessory feed, with a
> precharge resistor.
>
>
>
> If you do this and wish to keep the PCS awake 24/7, simply enable sentry
> mode, making sure "disable at home" is not checked.   I think it will keep
> the system powered up until about 20% SoC.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:47 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I'd like to know what the Tesla 12V current spec is when attaching an
> inverter to the battery.  What's the E-fuse trip point, actual spec?
>
>
>
> On the internet, just anectotal stuff like this:
>
>
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/current-maximum-on-12v-system.31442/
>
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
> ---
>
>
>
> Chevy Bolt works at 1000W:
>
> I just ran an experiment, hooked a Harbor Fright Centech 2000W cont (really
>
> 1000W) with a 100A CB (WestMarine) in series with the 1 foot #2 cables
> clamped onto the 12V battery.  I turned on the car with it in Park and left
> the keys on the seat.  Initially I tested with a 8.3A parabolic heater for
>
> 30 minutes (drawing about 83-90A).  The 12V battery (Dc DC converter
> output)
> rose to 13.1V, up to 15V after 30 minutes.  Not sure why it *rose* under
> load.  The dash started at 1KW right indicator (load) assume vehicle pumps
> etc - went to 2KW when heater was turned on.  The Klimaire 2020 120VAC 1
> ton
>
> (12000BTU) heat pump drew 6.5A (a bit less than the space heater).  The
> Pioneer (also installed same time) is 

Re: [EVDL] Inverters on EVs for UPS to power mini splits, refrigerators etc, Tesla E-fuse Amps trip point?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

This depends on the Model of course, but on 3/Y you should be able to pull
175a continuously if you shut off most high-current accessories and you
pull from the PCS (DC-DC) output line directly.  You cannot pull ANYTHING
directly from the LV battery, as it will affect the coulomb-counting and
can affect the LV battery lifetime as well as generate alerts that Tesla
will know about, and has used as grounds to void the warranty on the PCS.

The PCS feed terminal is available under the rear-seat lower cushion on the
passenger side.   Note that you cannot leave an inverter with a large
amount of capacitance connected to this 24/7, as when the car attempts to
wake from a deep sleep it can fault when it tries to power this rail up.  A
safe/easy way to handle this is install a large Anderson connector here,
and then only connect the inverter when needed, and preferably with a
precharge.  If you wanted to leave this connected permanently, I would
install a contactor that is powered from an accessory feed, with a
precharge resistor.

If you do this and wish to keep the PCS awake 24/7, simply enable sentry
mode, making sure "disable at home" is not checked.   I think it will keep
the system powered up until about 20% SoC.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:47 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I'd like to know what the Tesla 12V current spec is when attaching an
> inverter to the battery.  What's the E-fuse trip point, actual spec?
>
>
>
> On the internet, just anectotal stuff like this:
>
>
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/current-maximum-on-12v-system.31442/
>
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
> ---
>
>
>
> Chevy Bolt works at 1000W:
>
> I just ran an experiment, hooked a Harbor Fright Centech 2000W cont (really
>
> 1000W) with a 100A CB (WestMarine) in series with the 1 foot #2 cables
> clamped onto the 12V battery.  I turned on the car with it in Park and left
> the keys on the seat.  Initially I tested with a 8.3A parabolic heater for
>
> 30 minutes (drawing about 83-90A).  The 12V battery (Dc DC converter
> output)
> rose to 13.1V, up to 15V after 30 minutes.  Not sure why it *rose* under
> load.  The dash started at 1KW right indicator (load) assume vehicle pumps
> etc - went to 2KW when heater was turned on.  The Klimaire 2020 120VAC 1
> ton
>
> (12000BTU) heat pump drew 6.5A (a bit less than the space heater).  The
> Pioneer (also installed same time) is 6.5A at 120VAC (downstairs unit).
>
>
>
> So - now I can run a minisplit 1 ton heat pump for about 50 hours from a
> 80%
> charged (64KWH) Bolt battery.  I'd like to test on the Tesla-Y but due to
> the picky 12V load monitoring, I'm told this is a no-no.  Strange, you
> would
> think for a pricey car you could direct run a 12V:120V converter off the
> battery/DC-DC converter.  The Leaf works like the Bolt does - but I'm told
> is only rated 90A not 130A like the Bolt.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> UL Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
>
> <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> 75b8d/signature
> >
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[(-Phil-) via EV]

A Tesla can charge, including DCFC at any battery temp over 0C.   Only for
FULL SPEED DCFC, does the pack need to be heated to around 50C..

The problem in Chicago was people with no home charging leaving packs
overnight to freeze and then driving to DCFC for their daily charge
expecting it would work.  NO charging will happen until the pack is warmed
to above freezing, and a cold-soaked pack will take a long time to get over
freezing with only a handful of kW of heat input, so they just sit there at
the stall waiting and waiting.

Tesla's pack heating can easily maintain warm packs in almost any condition
as long as they are plugged in.   If these people w/o home charging had
done their charge session at night before going home, they would have had
no issues.

In most all cases just normal driving is enough to keep the pack temp above
freezing so it can charge.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 10:40 AM jamie via EV  wrote:

>
> Thanks for the info about the Tesla thermal management relating
> primarily to supercharging. Good to know.
>
>  > The **2011** Leaf thermal management system sucks.
>
> The 2011 Leaf, basically Leaf 1.0, didn't have the cold weather features
> that were added in 2013.
>
> Like Lee, we also have a 2013 Leaf. It has several useful improvements
> over the 2011 1.0 version you had, including the addition of a cold
> weather package and reported changes in battery chemistry. Our 2013 Leaf
> kept battery temp within operating range even though parked outside in
> sub-zero temps during the multi-day cold snap, and it didn't drain the
> battery excessively doing so. I was reasonably impressed.
>
>
>
> On 1/19/24 11:10 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > Yes, that only applies to full power supercharging on Ternary (NMC).   If
> > you don't preheat (use the nav) a Tesla can still supercharge, but if not
> > that hot you will get lower peak power as well as a faster taper.   This
> is
> > why Tesla has integrated supercharging into the navigation system, so it
> > will begin pre-heating the pack before you arrive at the next station.
> > Having the pack at these temperatures reduces the possibility of anode
> > plating, so it's important if you want a long life with good charging
> > speeds.  Most of Tesla's packs can now charge at well over 3C with no
> > plating because of this tight thermal control.  I don't know what the
> temp
> > curves look like for LFP, I haven't analyzed one yet.
> >
> > The pack will not need to preheat like this for normal level 2 speeds.
> >
> > The Leaf thermal management system sucks.   I had one of the original
> 2011
> > models when they were first introduced.  I didn't keep it long, and I'm
> > glad!   It's clear Nissan doesn't understand Ternary chemistry.   Even at
> > the slow speeds the Leaf can DCFC, it still experiences rapid
> degradation.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:44 AM Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> >> --
> >> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >> -Original Message-
> >> (-Phil-) wrote:
> >>> No, if the battery is at 60F it's simply not going to be able to run
> the
> >> reactions needed to charge. The minimum temp for full speed
> supercharging
> >> is around 125F.
> >>
> >> Wow; that's amazingly hot. I had no idea Tesla's batteries had to run
> that
> >> hot to charge.
> >>
> >> Do these temperature limits only apply to supercharging? I.e. can you
> >> charge at lower rates at lower temperatures?
> >>
> >> Is this a characteristic of Tesla's batteries? Or of LiFePO4 in general?
> >>
> >>
> >> My 2013 Leaf is sitting outside in 0 deg.F temperatures, and will charge
> >> and do regen. It has a battery heater, but it doesn't turn on until it
> gets
> >> below about -10 deg.F.
> >>
> >> Lee
> >> ___
> >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, that only applies to full power supercharging on Ternary (NMC).   If
you don't preheat (use the nav) a Tesla can still supercharge, but if not
that hot you will get lower peak power as well as a faster taper.   This is
why Tesla has integrated supercharging into the navigation system, so it
will begin pre-heating the pack before you arrive at the next station.
Having the pack at these temperatures reduces the possibility of anode
plating, so it's important if you want a long life with good charging
speeds.  Most of Tesla's packs can now charge at well over 3C with no
plating because of this tight thermal control.  I don't know what the temp
curves look like for LFP, I haven't analyzed one yet.

The pack will not need to preheat like this for normal level 2 speeds.

The Leaf thermal management system sucks.   I had one of the original 2011
models when they were first introduced.  I didn't keep it long, and I'm
glad!   It's clear Nissan doesn't understand Ternary chemistry.   Even at
the slow speeds the Leaf can DCFC, it still experiences rapid degradation.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:44 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> -Original Message-
> (-Phil-) wrote:
> > No, if the battery is at 60F it's simply not going to be able to run the
> reactions needed to charge. The minimum temp for full speed supercharging
> is around 125F.
>
> Wow; that's amazingly hot. I had no idea Tesla's batteries had to run that
> hot to charge.
>
> Do these temperature limits only apply to supercharging? I.e. can you
> charge at lower rates at lower temperatures?
>
> Is this a characteristic of Tesla's batteries? Or of LiFePO4 in general?
>
>
> My 2013 Leaf is sitting outside in 0 deg.F temperatures, and will charge
> and do regen. It has a battery heater, but it doesn't turn on until it gets
> below about -10 deg.F.
>
> Lee
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[(-Phil-) via EV]

No, if the battery is at 60F it's simply not going to be able to run the
reactions needed to charge.  The minimum temp for full speed supercharging
is around 125F.  You can enter service mode and check the battery temps
anytime if you are curious. (I have a video on service mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCa4AB2PS_I )  The hotter the pack is, the
less resistance it will have for supercharging.  You will notice about
half-way through a session, then the thermal system will begin cooling to
keep the temp around that 125F range.  (you will hear the fans!)

I personally have a largish 16S array of large-format LiFePO4 (LFP) cells
in my house for UPS backup, I think it's perfectly ok as long as it was
built right and has a quality BMS.   However, I would NOT have ternary
cells in my house of any size other than what's in brand-name small
consumer electronics like laptops, phones, etc.   I don't recommend keeping
things like no-name Chinese-made eBike batteries indoors.   Get a shed
that's sufficiently away from your house to keep these in.


On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 12:03 PM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Thanks Phil for your thoughtful and informative reply (as usual :-)
>
> I thought about moving my LiFePO4 ups backup batteries outhouse, but based
> on the freezing no charge issue, I’ll just leave in the basement.
>
> With regards to Tesla pre conditioning for fast charge - In the summer
> though (hard to think of with negative temps), but when 90F or so I would
> think Tesla would cool the battery down to 60ish F since the fast charging
> process with 100’s of amps naturally heats up the pack.  I wonder why my
> Bolt and other EV manufacturers don’t pre-heat/cool the pack prior to fast
> charging.  Maybe like my Bolt it’s limited to 50KW and takes about an hour
> whereas my Tesla starts at 200KW and takes about 15min to get to the same
> 80% point :-)
> Stay Charged,
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 18, 2024, at 11:51 AM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> 
> Tesla preconditioning is almost always HEATING the battery, and this is a
> GOOD thing!
>
> Apparently what happened in Chicago is there is a large quantity of EV
> owners that do not have home charging.  Supposedly a high proportion are
> rideshare operators (Lyft/Uber) that lease EVs to use for work.  This means
> they operate 100% on public charging.  If you park an EV outside below
> freezing overnight, the pack will be below freezing in the morning, so if
> you go to a DCFC station, the car will not be able to charge at all until
> it first warms the battery over 0C.   But it will draw about 3-8kW from the
> fast charger to heat the battery, but this can take anywhere from 20
> minutes to 2 hours depending on how far below 0C the battery is.   This
> means someone could be occupying a stall for an inordinate time waiting for
> charging to actually start.
>
> People who have charging at home do not have these problems, as the pack
> can warm overnight on grid power without occupying a DCFC stall.  Those
> with garages are in even better situations, as the pack usually doesn't
> have as much cold soak.
>
> You absolutely cannot charge ternary lithium batteries below freezing as
> it will cause anode plating.   This is the same reaction if you attempt to
> put too much power into a battery than it can take.   So the colder a
> battery is, the less charge amps it can safely absorb, down to freezing
> where ANY amps is too much.  Same thing for high SoC.  So if you want to
> charge a battery fastest, it needs to be hot and discharged.   This is why
> you see tapering as the SoC comes up during DCFC.
>
> As a pack gets closer to freezing all charging has to taper, including
> regen.  Below freezing, there can be no regen.
>
> The anode plating is not reversible, it causes a permanent loss of
> capacity.  In addition, a cell with a lot of plating damage has a much
> higher likelihood of separator failure, which can result in thermal runaway
> and burn your house down!
>
> No properly engineered BMS will allow this to happen.
>
> For Tesla 3/Y and 2021+ S/X, they use the drive unit and/or heat pump to
> heat the battery.   The drive unit inverter can run in a mode, even
> stationary, that will generate a lot of waste heat.  It makes a
> recognizable buzzing sound when it's doing this.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 8:28 AM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Phil etc,
>> When Tesla says pre conditioning the battery prior to a supercharger is
>> it cooling the battery to say 60F since the charging process heats it up?
>>
>> Also why does Tesla (and other EVs like my Leaf and Bolt) disable the
>> regen below freezing?  It draws 100s of amps when driving, you think
>> putting back the same would be ok for the battery, coming or going
>> shouldn’t matter?
>>
>> NBC News last night said Chicago Tesla drivers had to wait at the
>> Supercharger for an hour or so (wouldn’t allow them to charge till battery
>> warmed up).  I haven’t experienced this at 10F but up there 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I suspect a lot of people just don't understand all of this.  When I had my
first Tesla, I remember talking to many people at superchargers, and this
was in 2015 when most Tesla owners were still early adopters and were tech
savvy, but still the lack of understanding was rampant.

The EV manufacturers seem to want to hide all this from customers so they
don't "look bad".

On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 9:06 AM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> So, in general, this means there are a lot of rideshare drivers using
> Teslas - who can't think ahead far enough to charge up at the END of the
> work day - while the pack is still warm, rather than waiting for the
> next days, when the pack is frozen.
>
> On 1/18/2024 8:50 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > Tesla preconditioning is almost always HEATING the battery, and this is a
> > GOOD thing!
> >
> > Apparently what happened in Chicago is there is a large quantity of EV
> > owners that do not have home charging.  Supposedly a high proportion are
> > rideshare operators (Lyft/Uber) that lease EVs to use for work.  This
> means
> > they operate 100% on public charging.  If you park an EV outside below
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Tesla preconditioning is almost always HEATING the battery, and this is a
GOOD thing!

Apparently what happened in Chicago is there is a large quantity of EV
owners that do not have home charging.  Supposedly a high proportion are
rideshare operators (Lyft/Uber) that lease EVs to use for work.  This means
they operate 100% on public charging.  If you park an EV outside below
freezing overnight, the pack will be below freezing in the morning, so if
you go to a DCFC station, the car will not be able to charge at all until
it first warms the battery over 0C.   But it will draw about 3-8kW from the
fast charger to heat the battery, but this can take anywhere from 20
minutes to 2 hours depending on how far below 0C the battery is.   This
means someone could be occupying a stall for an inordinate time waiting for
charging to actually start.

People who have charging at home do not have these problems, as the pack
can warm overnight on grid power without occupying a DCFC stall.  Those
with garages are in even better situations, as the pack usually doesn't
have as much cold soak.

You absolutely cannot charge ternary lithium batteries below freezing as it
will cause anode plating.   This is the same reaction if you attempt to put
too much power into a battery than it can take.   So the colder a battery
is, the less charge amps it can safely absorb, down to freezing where ANY
amps is too much.  Same thing for high SoC.  So if you want to charge a
battery fastest, it needs to be hot and discharged.   This is why you see
tapering as the SoC comes up during DCFC.

As a pack gets closer to freezing all charging has to taper, including
regen.  Below freezing, there can be no regen.

The anode plating is not reversible, it causes a permanent loss of
capacity.  In addition, a cell with a lot of plating damage has a much
higher likelihood of separator failure, which can result in thermal runaway
and burn your house down!

No properly engineered BMS will allow this to happen.

For Tesla 3/Y and 2021+ S/X, they use the drive unit and/or heat pump to
heat the battery.   The drive unit inverter can run in a mode, even
stationary, that will generate a lot of waste heat.  It makes a
recognizable buzzing sound when it's doing this.


On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 8:28 AM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi Phil etc,
> When Tesla says pre conditioning the battery prior to a supercharger is it
> cooling the battery to say 60F since the charging process heats it up?
>
> Also why does Tesla (and other EVs like my Leaf and Bolt) disable the
> regen below freezing?  It draws 100s of amps when driving, you think
> putting back the same would be ok for the battery, coming or going
> shouldn’t matter?
>
> NBC News last night said Chicago Tesla drivers had to wait at the
> Supercharger for an hour or so (wouldn’t allow them to charge till battery
> warmed up).  I haven’t experienced this at 10F but up there it was 2F.  Is
> this a real issue or just the news getting it wrong (again).
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Running a 1-ton mini-split (12A, 120V) from an EV with 1500W (12V@120A inverter)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Forgot to say: The main reason I have that Model S pack in the workshop is
to provide power for testing drive units.   It's sort of overkill for a
home backup.  I've never used more than about 10% during a power outage,
but it's sure nice to know it's there!

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 7:13 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:

> My backup is a complete 85kWh pack from a 2014 Tesla Model S which is
> hooked to a 15kW split-phase inverter made by Bel (out of production), but
> with some crafty software on my controller I can go open my main breaker on
> the meter and turn on that system.  It fires up the whole hose, then when
> (if) the sun comes out, my SMA 7.7kW grid-tie solar inverter "thinks" that
> the Bel inverter is the grid and begins pushing back into the Tesla
> battery.   When the Tesla pack hits 85% SoC, my controller "burps" the AC
> by switching to 50hz for one cycle, then back to 60hz.  This causes the SMA
> to disconnect and wait 5 minutes.  It will keep repeating this until the
> SoC is below 85%.   The controller is based on an ESP32 so it has a web
> page and will send out low SoC warnings to my phone.   My house is
> heated/cooled by a LG multi-zone mini-split heat pump, so it runs fine on
> the off-grid system.   I also still have the house's original natural gas
> furnace if needed, but I normally don't run it.
>
> I told myself I'd automate this with a big 250A contactor on the main AC
> input, but it's a lot of expense/work and the power isn't out here but
> maybe a few times a year, and I can handle the manual switchover when it's
> needed.   I have all my critical gear on a 2kVa off-line UPS hooked to a
> 48v 280Ah LFP bank, so that will stay up anyway.
>
> Picture of the Tesla pack in my workshop:
> https://ingineerix.com/pic/?tesla-super-powerwall
>
> Bel 15kW inverter:
> https://www.belfuse.com/product-detail/power-solutions-custom-value-added-solutions-emobility-350invch150-inverter-charger
>
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 6:13 PM Phil Hochstetler via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Portland Oregon area just experienced a wind/cold event that took away
>> power from 150,000+.
>> I have a new in the box 7500 watt tri-fuel generator but had not set it up
>> yet (of course).
>> My model 3 was charged, but not setup with an inverter yet due to lack of
>> motivation, but our Rav4 Prime
>> had a full tank of gas and the 1500 watt built-in inverter that runs off
>> the high voltage pack.
>> I wired a short cord on the furnace (NG furnace) so we had heat as it was
>> 12F out and ran a cord into the house
>> under the garage door so we could run a light or two and the 2 burner
>> countertop induction stove and refrigerator.
>> Pretty sweet.  In on mode (with doors locked with key), the rav4 would
>> turn
>> on when the battery got low and recharge the battery.
>> After 24 hours, it used 1/8 tank of gas but we were warm and had
>> light/food.  I went out and got 10 gal of gas to fire up the generator
>> and the power came on before I got back.  Still fun.
>>
>> Phil Hochstetler
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:58 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Folks,
>> >
>> > I was reading Otmar's inverter connection to a Tesla-3 and looks like
>> Tesla
>> > makes it really difficult to run a 1500W 12V inverter from their EVs.
>> My
>> > Bolt shows 130A available from its DC-DC converter, just clamp the
>> Harbor
>> > Fright inverter (have 1500W with 200A inline breaker, short aligator
>> > clamps)
>> > on the battery & the Leaf appears to be rated about 90A, so probably not
>> > enough to run my mini-split at 12A, 120V.   Presently if the power goes
>> out
>> > - I just put another log in my wood stove, but thinking it would be
>> nice to
>> > run one of my EV's as the 64KWH power source incase the power goes out
>> for
>> > awhile.  I have a Bergey wind turbine on LiFePO4 7KWH batteries, but
>> that
>> > would only last a few hours running the Pioneer mini-split.  Has anyone
>> > done
>> > this successfully?  The Bolt has to be *on* in neutral or park with the
>> key
>> > in to keep the DC-DC converter alive.  Would rather not have a Kerosun
>> for
>> > backup...
>> >
>> > Subject: Model 3 Inverter Power Connection - Otmar's Variety Blog
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/2020/06/08/inverter-power-connection-1/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Have a renewable energy day,
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> > Mark E. Hanson
>> > 184 Vista Lane
>> > Fincastle, VA 24090
>> > 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>> > REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>> > Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>> > UL Certified PV Installer
>> > My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>> > REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>> > Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> >
>> >
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment 

Re: [EVDL] Running a 1-ton mini-split (12A, 120V) from an EV with 1500W (12V@120A inverter)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

My backup is a complete 85kWh pack from a 2014 Tesla Model S which is
hooked to a 15kW split-phase inverter made by Bel (out of production), but
with some crafty software on my controller I can go open my main breaker on
the meter and turn on that system.  It fires up the whole hose, then when
(if) the sun comes out, my SMA 7.7kW grid-tie solar inverter "thinks" that
the Bel inverter is the grid and begins pushing back into the Tesla
battery.   When the Tesla pack hits 85% SoC, my controller "burps" the AC
by switching to 50hz for one cycle, then back to 60hz.  This causes the SMA
to disconnect and wait 5 minutes.  It will keep repeating this until the
SoC is below 85%.   The controller is based on an ESP32 so it has a web
page and will send out low SoC warnings to my phone.   My house is
heated/cooled by a LG multi-zone mini-split heat pump, so it runs fine on
the off-grid system.   I also still have the house's original natural gas
furnace if needed, but I normally don't run it.

I told myself I'd automate this with a big 250A contactor on the main AC
input, but it's a lot of expense/work and the power isn't out here but
maybe a few times a year, and I can handle the manual switchover when it's
needed.   I have all my critical gear on a 2kVa off-line UPS hooked to a
48v 280Ah LFP bank, so that will stay up anyway.

Picture of the Tesla pack in my workshop:
https://ingineerix.com/pic/?tesla-super-powerwall

Bel 15kW inverter:
https://www.belfuse.com/product-detail/power-solutions-custom-value-added-solutions-emobility-350invch150-inverter-charger

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 6:13 PM Phil Hochstetler via EV 
wrote:

> Portland Oregon area just experienced a wind/cold event that took away
> power from 150,000+.
> I have a new in the box 7500 watt tri-fuel generator but had not set it up
> yet (of course).
> My model 3 was charged, but not setup with an inverter yet due to lack of
> motivation, but our Rav4 Prime
> had a full tank of gas and the 1500 watt built-in inverter that runs off
> the high voltage pack.
> I wired a short cord on the furnace (NG furnace) so we had heat as it was
> 12F out and ran a cord into the house
> under the garage door so we could run a light or two and the 2 burner
> countertop induction stove and refrigerator.
> Pretty sweet.  In on mode (with doors locked with key), the rav4 would turn
> on when the battery got low and recharge the battery.
> After 24 hours, it used 1/8 tank of gas but we were warm and had
> light/food.  I went out and got 10 gal of gas to fire up the generator
> and the power came on before I got back.  Still fun.
>
> Phil Hochstetler
>
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:58 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I was reading Otmar's inverter connection to a Tesla-3 and looks like
> Tesla
> > makes it really difficult to run a 1500W 12V inverter from their EVs.  My
> > Bolt shows 130A available from its DC-DC converter, just clamp the Harbor
> > Fright inverter (have 1500W with 200A inline breaker, short aligator
> > clamps)
> > on the battery & the Leaf appears to be rated about 90A, so probably not
> > enough to run my mini-split at 12A, 120V.   Presently if the power goes
> out
> > - I just put another log in my wood stove, but thinking it would be nice
> to
> > run one of my EV's as the 64KWH power source incase the power goes out
> for
> > awhile.  I have a Bergey wind turbine on LiFePO4 7KWH batteries, but that
> > would only last a few hours running the Pioneer mini-split.  Has anyone
> > done
> > this successfully?  The Bolt has to be *on* in neutral or park with the
> key
> > in to keep the DC-DC converter alive.  Would rather not have a Kerosun
> for
> > backup...
> >
> > Subject: Model 3 Inverter Power Connection - Otmar's Variety Blog
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/2020/06/08/inverter-power-connection-1/
> >
> >
> >
> > Have a renewable energy day,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > Mark E. Hanson
> > 184 Vista Lane
> > Fincastle, VA 24090
> > 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> > REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> > Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> > UL Certified PV Installer
> > My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> > REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> > Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Running a 1-ton mini-split (12A, 120V) from an EV with 1500W (12V@120A inverter)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

It was a Chinese-made Pioneer, I don't recall the model, but it was the
larger of the two offered at the time (about 10 years ago), the smaller one
had an AC fan, and the larger one was BLDC.   It had a PFC boost function
to about 400VDC.   It was hooked to an 85kWh 16 module pack.   Since the
max voltage of this pack was inline with the PFC boost bus, it all worked
perfectly.  I just bypassed the PFC stage.

Even without PFC, any 240v appliance has to be rated to handle +/- 10%, so
that's 264VAC or about 350VDC when dumped into a full bridge at the filter
capacitor.   Chances are the limit is going to be the voltage rating on
those filter caps.  Usually 400VDC, though some have better headroom at
450VDC.   Some equipment targeted for industrial use is rated for 277VAC
(one wye leg of 480VAC), in which case it's designed to see up to 305VAC
which works out to about 405VDC.

If you are wanting to do this the best way is to locate the service manuals
for various units you are interested in, and then look at the wiring
diagram.  It's usually really obvious which uses AC fan motors.
For instance, here's the wiring for the indoor unit on the LG unit I have
in my shop, as you can see, it's fully capable of DC except for the
built-in condensate pump, so you'd have to do something about that:

(Picture Link https://ingineerix.com/pic/?lg-heat-pump-idu )

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 4:46 PM Haudy Kazemi via EV 
wrote:

> That's pretty neat. Reminds me of what people have done with direct ties to
> Prius packs (PriUPS).
>
> Can you share any specific mini split models that you have seen, or heard
> of, being used this way?
>
> Which Tesla pack? Was this with a 350v DC (14 module) or 400v DC Tesla pack
> (16 module) legacy Model S/X pack or some other Tesla pack? My napkin math
> says the 350v DC packs have a better chance at compatibility.
>
> Was the pack still in a car? If so, did you run into any problems with the
> car software making things harder than necessary?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2024, 17:27 (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> > I have successfully hooked a Mini-Split (240v) up to a Tesla pack
> > directly.   You have to perform an analysis to make sure it can support
> DC,
> > and there are only a few that can, as most of the indoor-unit fans use AC
> > motors, but there are a few that use BLDC.   You would not be able to do
> > this with a 120v unit unless it's internally using a capacitor doubler (I
> > have seen a few that do this!).
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:58 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > I was reading Otmar's inverter connection to a Tesla-3 and looks like
> > Tesla
> > > makes it really difficult to run a 1500W 12V inverter from their EVs.
> My
> > > Bolt shows 130A available from its DC-DC converter, just clamp the
> Harbor
> > > Fright inverter (have 1500W with 200A inline breaker, short aligator
> > > clamps)
> > > on the battery & the Leaf appears to be rated about 90A, so probably
> not
> > > enough to run my mini-split at 12A, 120V.   Presently if the power goes
> > out
> > > - I just put another log in my wood stove, but thinking it would be
> nice
> > to
> > > run one of my EV's as the 64KWH power source incase the power goes out
> > for
> > > awhile.  I have a Bergey wind turbine on LiFePO4 7KWH batteries, but
> that
> > > would only last a few hours running the Pioneer mini-split.  Has anyone
> > > done
> > > this successfully?  The Bolt has to be *on* in neutral or park with the
> > key
> > > in to keep the DC-DC converter alive.  Would rather not have a Kerosun
> > for
> > > backup...
> > >
> > > Subject: Model 3 Inverter Power Connection - Otmar's Variety Blog
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/2020/06/08/inverter-power-connection-1/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Have a renewable energy day,
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > Mark E. Hanson
> > > 184 Vista Lane
> > > Fincastle, VA 24090
> > > 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> > > REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> > > Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> > > UL Certified PV Installer
> > > My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> > > REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> > > Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields

Re: [EVDL] Running a 1-ton mini-split (12A, 120V) from an EV with 1500W (12V@120A inverter)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The power drawn by the heat pump depends on the delta-T (temperature
differences) and demand (fan speed).

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 4:32 PM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Thanks Phil
> Sounds like a project :-)
> I also have a Schneider SW4024 that powers the well pump and fridge during
> a power outage but the LiFePO4 batts are only 7KWh tied to 1200W solar
> panels and a Bergey XL-1 (1KW rated) but at night in a storm probably only
> get 5KWh out.  I just measured the 2020 EnergyStar 1ton heat pump at 6.5A
> 120V (about 26Seer) which is better than I thought.  I have a similar
> Klimaire that’s 2014 and draws 12A 120V doing the same job (about 17seer).
> Maybe just put another log on the fire :-)
> Stay warm ,
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 16, 2024, at 6:27 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> 
> I have successfully hooked a Mini-Split (240v) up to a Tesla pack
> directly.   You have to perform an analysis to make sure it can support DC,
> and there are only a few that can, as most of the indoor-unit fans use AC
> motors, but there are a few that use BLDC.   You would not be able to do
> this with a 120v unit unless it's internally using a capacitor doubler (I
> have seen a few that do this!).
>
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:58 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> I was reading Otmar's inverter connection to a Tesla-3 and looks like
>> Tesla
>> makes it really difficult to run a 1500W 12V inverter from their EVs.  My
>> Bolt shows 130A available from its DC-DC converter, just clamp the Harbor
>> Fright inverter (have 1500W with 200A inline breaker, short aligator
>> clamps)
>> on the battery & the Leaf appears to be rated about 90A, so probably not
>> enough to run my mini-split at 12A, 120V.   Presently if the power goes
>> out
>> - I just put another log in my wood stove, but thinking it would be nice
>> to
>> run one of my EV's as the 64KWH power source incase the power goes out for
>> awhile.  I have a Bergey wind turbine on LiFePO4 7KWH batteries, but that
>> would only last a few hours running the Pioneer mini-split.  Has anyone
>> done
>> this successfully?  The Bolt has to be *on* in neutral or park with the
>> key
>> in to keep the DC-DC converter alive.  Would rather not have a Kerosun for
>> backup...
>>
>> Subject: Model 3 Inverter Power Connection - Otmar's Variety Blog
>>
>>
>> https://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/2020/06/08/inverter-power-connection-1/
>>
>>
>>
>> Have a renewable energy day,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark E. Hanson
>> 184 Vista Lane
>> Fincastle, VA 24090
>> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>> UL Certified PV Installer
>> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>> REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Running a 1-ton mini-split (12A, 120V) from an EV with 1500W (12V@120A inverter)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I have successfully hooked a Mini-Split (240v) up to a Tesla pack
directly.   You have to perform an analysis to make sure it can support DC,
and there are only a few that can, as most of the indoor-unit fans use AC
motors, but there are a few that use BLDC.   You would not be able to do
this with a 120v unit unless it's internally using a capacitor doubler (I
have seen a few that do this!).

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:58 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I was reading Otmar's inverter connection to a Tesla-3 and looks like Tesla
> makes it really difficult to run a 1500W 12V inverter from their EVs.  My
> Bolt shows 130A available from its DC-DC converter, just clamp the Harbor
> Fright inverter (have 1500W with 200A inline breaker, short aligator
> clamps)
> on the battery & the Leaf appears to be rated about 90A, so probably not
> enough to run my mini-split at 12A, 120V.   Presently if the power goes out
> - I just put another log in my wood stove, but thinking it would be nice to
> run one of my EV's as the 64KWH power source incase the power goes out for
> awhile.  I have a Bergey wind turbine on LiFePO4 7KWH batteries, but that
> would only last a few hours running the Pioneer mini-split.  Has anyone
> done
> this successfully?  The Bolt has to be *on* in neutral or park with the key
> in to keep the DC-DC converter alive.  Would rather not have a Kerosun for
> backup...
>
> Subject: Model 3 Inverter Power Connection - Otmar's Variety Blog
>
>
> https://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/2020/06/08/inverter-power-connection-1/
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
> Mark
>
> Mark E. Hanson
> 184 Vista Lane
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> UL Certified PV Installer
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Charge to 100% after discharging to 0% for BMS equalization.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah, Sadly the quality of packs before about VIN 60k on Model S was
spotty.   That shouldn't happen, but seems to on those older packs.  Doing
the periodic balance may help avert that.

Did you get any alerts, such as BMS_u029_dSoc_Limiting or
BMS_u018_SOC_Imbalance_Limiting?

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 6:17 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
> On 1/14/24 20:39, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > Yeah, My procedure is to charge to 75% overnight normally, or higher if
> > needed.  3-4 times a year I need to take a road trip, so I charge to 90%
> > overnight, then 2 hours before I am about to leave, I'll take it to 100%
> to
> > give it time to balance.   (I have ternary/NMC not LFP)   The pack
> doesn't
> > sit too long at 100% when you hit the highway.
> >
> > You really don't need to worry too much about balance unless you see a
> drop
> > in range, then do a balance, and if you get some range back after a week
> or
> > so, do it again and ad nauseum until you don't see any gain.   I think
> > doing it a few times a year does a pretty good job of keeping it
> in-check,
> > but all packs are different, so YMMV.
>
> I recently pulled my 2013 S85 (~170k miles) back from being loaned out.
> The person using it rarely took longish trips and tried to keep it
> charged daily to 90%.  Probably above 50% most of the time.  That is how
> it was treated for a couple of years.  It was about 150 miles distant
> from my home; the trip home had several SuperCharging  opportunities but
> I decided the extra charging would not be needed.  About 15 miles from
> home, with estimated remaining range of 29 miles, the car abruptly ran
> out of energy.  I ran the 12 v down while messing around trying to tow
> it home with a rope.  Eventually, I got it flat bed towed (expensive 15
> miles).  Eventually got the 12v going and charged up the traction
> battery.  Everything worked semi-well.  With some trepidation, I tested
> the range estimate by driving ~8 mile circles around my house.  I got it
> down to zero.  Indicating that the range estimate was again semi-accurate.
>
> Incidentally, Tesla replaced several lead batteries approximately
> annually.  When Tesla started demanding payment for 12v replacement, I
> put a LFP in.  That 12v has been trouble free for about 5 years.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Charge to 100% after discharging to 0% for BMS equalization.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah, My procedure is to charge to 75% overnight normally, or higher if
needed.  3-4 times a year I need to take a road trip, so I charge to 90%
overnight, then 2 hours before I am about to leave, I'll take it to 100% to
give it time to balance.   (I have ternary/NMC not LFP)   The pack doesn't
sit too long at 100% when you hit the highway.

You really don't need to worry too much about balance unless you see a drop
in range, then do a balance, and if you get some range back after a week or
so, do it again and ad nauseum until you don't see any gain.   I think
doing it a few times a year does a pretty good job of keeping it in-check,
but all packs are different, so YMMV.

On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 6:27 PM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Thanks Phil for the informative reply.  I plugged in immediately when
> getting in the driveway and waited a couple hours before unloading, chain
> sawing and splitting the wood (with an electric Worx chain saw and Swisher
> electric log splitter).
> Last time I charged to 100% was at Cocoa Beach Florida in October.  Some
> EVers told me to just charge to 80% like I normally do and others say to
> charge to 100% after a deep discharge- so I split the difference and
> charged to 90% :-)
> Next time I’ll charge to 100% is when going to Gatlinburg, Oak Ridge Tn
> and Mammoth Cave Ky in February.
> Stay Charged,
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 14, 2024, at 4:41 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> 
> You are fine, just don't let it sit at low SoC.   The "battery damage"
> comes from the fact that Tesla's BMS on the 3/Y are somewhat parasitic, and
> continue to suck power from a discharged pack.   There is added degradation
> from time spent at low SoC, but not "damage".
>
> You do not need to do a balance charge often.  I'd say 3 to 4 times a year
> is sufficient, just do not let it sit at 100% after this charge. Plan to
> drive it soon after it finishes.  LFP is less susceptible to this kind of
> degradation, but it still happens.
>
> On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 1:20 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks
>> I just did a bad thing , hauled a bunch of firewood in my 5x8 Lowe’s
>> trailer behind my Tesla Y and the range dropped more than I thought it
>> would. I didn’t run the mini split heat pump and kept speed at 45mph (much
>> to the chagrin of red neck truck drivers behind me) and got home at 0%.
>> When I turned the EV off the display said charge immediately or cause
>> battery damage!
>> When I used to convert EVs with balancers on LiFePO4 chemistry, to
>> rebalance the pack after a deep discharge, I’d charge to 100% once
>> (normally 80%).
>> What’s best?
>> Mark in Roanoke va
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Agreed, and this is why Tesla doesn't do this, as well as only offering
only a few mechanical variants or each model.

On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 3:32 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

> Mark specifically said software, but if the orig poster meant Hardware,
> and that
> Tesla should sell models without the hardware for FSD, Enhanced Autopilot,
> Seat
> heating, Premium connectivity, etc, then I would think that would make the
> cars
> much more expensive. For example, instead of having one steering system
> that would
> accommodate all the Tesla variations and needs only to be OTA software
> updated to
> upgrade from one level to another, you'd have several distinctly different
> system.
> So you'd have different softwires, different hardwires, increased shipping
> and
> stocking cost, increased production costs for different builds etc. Sort
> of
> defeating the point of an affordable car.
>
> I sort of think that my Tesla is like a swiss army knife, and we all know
> how
> popular they and their off shoots have become. I don't need the scissors
> until I
> need to cut something, so I just unfold them, use them and put them away
> when I
> don't need them, just like I do with the other blades. And the same is
> true with a
> Tesla, when I need the FSD, I pull down on the steering wheel lever, use
> it,
> otherwise is  invisible and not in any way a problem. If I want to use the
> map
> features of the center console, I just tap an icon and there it is, true I
> have to
> pay an extra $10 or so a month, but along with all the other enhances I
> get, it is
> well worth it.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of (-Phil-) via EV
> > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2024 3:22 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: (-Phil-) 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas
> >
> > He means not including the hardware.   All cars get the same hardware.
> > They can't do this because the other driver assistance features
> (Automatic
> > Emergency Braking, etc), are delivered by the same Autopilot ECU.  (Tesla
> > calls the APE)   Also included is the GPS receiver used for navigation,
> and
> > the rear camera used for the (now required) RV camera function.
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 11:04?AM John Blair via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > On Jan 13, 2024, at 10:29 AM, Mark E. Hanson via EV
> > > > 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It would also be nice if Tesla made a non-self driving "Autopilot"
> > > > less
> > > car
> > > > - and sell for less $$.
> > >
> > > As far as I know, all of the Tesla's are available without the Full
> > > Self Driving and Autopilot software.  Since you have to pay extra for
> > > those features, they are cheaper.  Maybe you meant something different?
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > > John Blair
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > www.avg.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas

[(-Phil-) via EV]

He means not including the hardware.   All cars get the same hardware.
They can't do this because the other driver assistance features (Automatic
Emergency Braking, etc), are delivered by the same Autopilot ECU.  (Tesla
calls the APE)   Also included is the GPS receiver used for navigation, and
the rear camera used for the (now required) RV camera function.

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 11:04 AM John Blair via EV 
wrote:

>
> > On Jan 13, 2024, at 10:29 AM, Mark E. Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > It would also be nice if Tesla made a non-self driving "Autopilot" less
> car
> > - and sell for less $$.
>
> As far as I know, all of the Tesla’s are available without the Full Self
> Driving and Autopilot software.  Since you have to pay extra for those
> features, they are cheaper.  Maybe you meant something different?
>
>
> John
> John Blair
>
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Re: [EVDL] Charge to 100% after discharging to 0% for BMS equalization.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

My 74kWh 2018 Model 3 has this:
BMS_energyBuffer: 3.10 kWh

So at 0% user-indicated SoC, there is still 3.1kWh remaining.

On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 1:47 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
wrote:

>  > What's best?
>
> For a Tesla? No idea, but my gut feeling is that when the
> instrumentation indicates 0% state of charge, there's probably still
> 5-10% left in the battery. You'll be fine. Read your warranty just in case.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[(-Phil-) via EV]

To be clear:  Tesla's with "one pedal" mode (called "hold") uses regen
until low speeds where it's not enough, then uses the iBooster to apply
hydraulic brakes.   It fades in the hydraulic almost perfectly, and holds
the brakes firmly on even with no feet touching pedals until you press the
accelerator again.

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 6:58 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
> > Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
> configured
> to
> > apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good idea for a
> smooth
> > driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal disappearing.
>
> When I drive my Model 3, I rarely use the brake pedal, sometimes not even
> once a
> trip and I do 3-5 trips a day about 5 miles each. For my last trip today,
> which
> was 7.8 miles, I used 4% of my battery, Range used was 6.1 miles - meaning
> I
> regened 1.7 miles and my efficiency was 128%. And here's one from earlier
> today
> where I stepped on the go pedal, distance 0.7 miles, battery used 1%,
> Range used
> 1.2miles (so I really stepped on it!), and efficiency was 55%. Even when I
> step
> on it, it is very easy to slow back down to a legal limit by just letting
> up on
> the go pedal.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
> 1014 E King St
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 520 240 7493
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Charge to 100% after discharging to 0% for BMS equalization.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

You are fine, just don't let it sit at low SoC.   The "battery damage"
comes from the fact that Tesla's BMS on the 3/Y are somewhat parasitic, and
continue to suck power from a discharged pack.   There is added degradation
from time spent at low SoC, but not "damage".

You do not need to do a balance charge often.  I'd say 3 to 4 times a year
is sufficient, just do not let it sit at 100% after this charge. Plan to
drive it soon after it finishes.  LFP is less susceptible to this kind of
degradation, but it still happens.

On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 1:20 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi folks
> I just did a bad thing , hauled a bunch of firewood in my 5x8 Lowe’s
> trailer behind my Tesla Y and the range dropped more than I thought it
> would. I didn’t run the mini split heat pump and kept speed at 45mph (much
> to the chagrin of red neck truck drivers behind me) and got home at 0%.
> When I turned the EV off the display said charge immediately or cause
> battery damage!
> When I used to convert EVs with balancers on LiFePO4 chemistry, to
> rebalance the pack after a deep discharge, I’d charge to 100% once
> (normally 80%).
> What’s best?
> Mark in Roanoke va
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
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Re: [EVDL] 156v Tech assistance needed

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The reason people use charge controllers is mainly to stop overcharge.
The secondary benefit with a controller that can do boost or buck is MPPT
(Maximum Power Point Tracking), so you can couple the PV to the battery
more effectively and waste less of the energy as heat.   If you hook ten
120W 12 volt panels (~ 10 amps each) in parallel with your 12 volt battery,
you would get (theoretically) 100 amps in.  If you hook those same panels
up in series, you would get 12 volts out at 10 amps.   The voltage stays at
12v when hooked to the battery, not the ~120v it would be open-circuit.
The ideal voltage the panels "want" to operate at depends on several
factors, and a well-engineered MPPT controller can let the PV panels
operate in their ideal voltage range for any given condition, while letting
the battery voltage be what it is going to be.   This changes throughout
the day, and can also be different every day as sun angles and
temperatures, change and PV panels age.

I recommend configuring your array for a voltage higher than your pack, and
then use an MPPT controller to buck down to the pack's voltage, without the
need for pack reconfiguration.  The idea you have about contactors will
likely not work without using a separate BMS for each sub-pack segment.
There are few off-the-shelf BMS' that will allow this kind of
re-configuration safely.

We use a custom-engineered MPPT boost controller on our vans (
https://maxwellvehicles.com/).  It takes 4 panels at about 150 volts total
and uses an MPPT algorithm to boost the PV voltage to the pack voltage
(~375v).  This is another way to do it, but we couldn't find anything
off-the-shelf so we built it ourselves.


(Picture Link: https://ingineerix.com/pic/?maxwell-epro-solar-mppt )

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 8:43 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Hey John,
> You say you run your shop off of the 24v setup….. do you have an inverter
> that makes 120VAC? Or 240VAC?
> Seems to me that all you need is an inverter and a charger. There would be
> some losses but simple to implement.
> If you go straight to the battery from the array you could use a DC to DC
> converter. Not sure of availability at those voltages. Let me think a bit
> and I’ll back to you.
> Paul
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, January 12, 2024, 9:21 PM, John McIntire via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> Having read this list for several years now, and commented occasionally, I
> know there some electrical engineers out there. It is to you I address this
> problem.
>
> I am now the proud owner of a '96 Solectria Force which will be receiving
> a new battery made up of 48, 280A LiFePo4 prismatic cells. The Force was
> designed to run at 156v (13 lead acid batteries). My primary power source
> is a 16 panel, 8.5 Kw PV array. Max voltage under load is 43v/panel at 13A.
> There is no back up power as I am not grid tied. I do have a small domestic
> 24v Li battery to run my shop. The Force battery will be equipped with a
> robust BMS.
>
> I can configure the panels to provide 172v at 52A in full sun but I know
> that the voltage and amp will be unstable which does not promote longevity
> in Li cells. Normal circumstances have a charge controller between the
> battery and the array to even out the voltage. Normal charge controllers
> are 48v or less. I would like to find or build a buck/boost circuit that
> would match the battery.
>
> I think I could break the Force battery into 3, 16s packs, charge them
> parallel at 48v+ and then reconnect in series for discharge. I think 2
> contactors per pack along with appropriate safety devices would do the job
> but that seems cumbersome at best if workable.
>
> I am not an engineer. I do have 30 years experience with automotive
> electronics. Since partial retirement, over the past 15 years I have
> converted an S-10 and 2 tractors to run as EVs. So I am somewhat familiar
> with the concepts and pitfalls.
>
> I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks in advance.
>
> John M
>
> "Money doesn't talk, it swears"--Bob Dylan
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Mudroom disassembled batteries and motor available.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Lawrence, the videos you linked are about roof decks and composting
toilets?  Also, what is a Mudroom battery?

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 9:22 AM Lawrence Rhodes 
wrote:

> https://youtu.be/K3Zp1EzxTkM?si=EvNph9icXPhLnj8g Mudworm in action.
> Batteries only have a few cycles. Motor can be water cooled. Available in
> San Francisco contact Milan. milan.petren...@gmail.com  Ebay listings:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/285365015234?mkcid=16=1=711-127632-2357-0=YhdxzJnbSwW=4429486=YhdxzJnbSwW=_ver=artemis=SMS
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/285604410193?mkcid=16=1=711-127632-2357-0=YhdxzJnbSwW=4429486=YhdxzJnbSwW=_ver=artemis=SMS
> more video: https://youtu.be/nFS1XjROVyE?si=x7-a3ggTjJh
> _._,_._,_
> --
> Groups.io Links:
>
> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>
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> To Group
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Shorting a A123 26650 Cell

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I use Primary Lithiums in them, much longer life, less hassle.

This is also what the wifi Nest smoke detectors come with:
https://amzn.to/3Glx8Nb

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 2:17 PM Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Remember the crazy PSA to replace your (almost new, what a waste!) smoke
> alarm battery every half year?
> True story: one guy did that faithfully, collected all those nearly-new
> batteries for recycling in a baggie and... set his house on fire. Note that
> this were the puny 9v cells!
> I always regard that PSA as bollocks, monitor my smoke alarms and when they
> beep or stop blinking the red light once a minute, *then* I replace the
> battery. Happens maybe every 5 years, so I am not trashing cells that are
> more than 90% capacity.
> Again: what an organised waste!
> Cor.
>
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 1:59 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> > When I was a kid, my hobby was mostly electronics, (big surprise, right?)
> > and I had a perpetually messy room (lab) that drove my Mother crazy.
> > (Again, big surprise?)  She constantly threatened to "go in there, clean
> it
> > up and throw it all in the trash".   One pre-teen day while I was at
> > school, she finally made good on that promise and went in with a big
> black
> > trash bag and started throwing "all that junk" into it.  When I came home
> > all the windows were open (unusual) and the whole area smelled really
> > toxic.  When I went in, it was even worse, and my room had about a 4 foot
> > circle of burnt wet carpet and black melted junk all over it.
> >
> > She had thrown away a small NiCad pack and it somehow shorted out in the
> > trash bag before she could haul it out, and caught fire.  She was able to
> > put it out (luckily) with some water.I was grounded for a month.
>  She
> > never attempted to touch my mess ever again though.
> >
> > Lithium batteries are no joke.  I personally have had more than one
> > accident and many close calls despite being well aware of the danger and
> > being very careful.   Sometimes it's not even in your control (like a
> cell
> > defect).   If you often use low-cost products with built-in Lithium, get
> a
> > fire-safe bag and charge in it, and for large things try and do it
> > outside.   I now have a covered carport-type area away from the house
> which
> > I will use for any even slightly questionable battery activities.   Also,
> > have good quality smoke detectors, preferably ones with wifi connectivity
> > so you get an alert if something happens, such as these:
> > https://amzn.to/3Glx8Nb   Yes, Expensive, but way less than a
> homeowner's
> > insurance deductible.  One of these really saved an already bad accident
> I
> > had from a total disaster.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 1:37 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I remember in 2013 I was designing a UPS for my employer and had a A123
> > > 26650 cell on my desk & walked away for a couple minutes to pee and
> when
> > I
> > > came back there was a crowd around as it apparently rolled into a
> spiral
> > > notebook and set it on fire!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fairly embarrassed, but the other engineers were impressed by the
> amount
> > of
> > > current/destruction a single cell could do!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Have a renewable energy day,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark E. Hanson
> > >
> > > 184 Vista Lane
> > >
> > > Fincastle, VA 24090
> > >
> > > 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> > >
> > > REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> > >
> > > Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> > >
> > > UL Certified PV Installer
> > >
> > > My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> > >
> > > REEVA Demo:  <http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0> http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> > >
> > >
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> > > 75b8d/signature
> > > <
> >
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd8975b8d/signature
> > >>
> > > Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> &

Re: [EVDL] Shorting a A123 26650 Cell

[(-Phil-) via EV]

When I was a kid, my hobby was mostly electronics, (big surprise, right?)
and I had a perpetually messy room (lab) that drove my Mother crazy.
(Again, big surprise?)  She constantly threatened to "go in there, clean it
up and throw it all in the trash".   One pre-teen day while I was at
school, she finally made good on that promise and went in with a big black
trash bag and started throwing "all that junk" into it.  When I came home
all the windows were open (unusual) and the whole area smelled really
toxic.  When I went in, it was even worse, and my room had about a 4 foot
circle of burnt wet carpet and black melted junk all over it.

She had thrown away a small NiCad pack and it somehow shorted out in the
trash bag before she could haul it out, and caught fire.  She was able to
put it out (luckily) with some water.I was grounded for a month.   She
never attempted to touch my mess ever again though.

Lithium batteries are no joke.  I personally have had more than one
accident and many close calls despite being well aware of the danger and
being very careful.   Sometimes it's not even in your control (like a cell
defect).   If you often use low-cost products with built-in Lithium, get a
fire-safe bag and charge in it, and for large things try and do it
outside.   I now have a covered carport-type area away from the house which
I will use for any even slightly questionable battery activities.   Also,
have good quality smoke detectors, preferably ones with wifi connectivity
so you get an alert if something happens, such as these:
https://amzn.to/3Glx8Nb   Yes, Expensive, but way less than a homeowner's
insurance deductible.  One of these really saved an already bad accident I
had from a total disaster.

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 1:37 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I remember in 2013 I was designing a UPS for my employer and had a A123
> 26650 cell on my desk & walked away for a couple minutes to pee and when I
> came back there was a crowd around as it apparently rolled into a spiral
> notebook and set it on fire!
>
>
>
> Fairly embarrassed, but the other engineers were impressed by the amount of
> current/destruction a single cell could do!
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> UL Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
>
> <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> 75b8d/signature
> >
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 21:15:13 -0800
>
> From: Cor van de Water   >
>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List   >
>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I destroyed an A123 26650 by shorting to the case.
>
> Message-ID:
>
>
>   >
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> Lawrence, when I removed some of the cells from that pack that you picked
> up, I cut the straps with heavy duty scissors.
>
> One time I accidentally shorted the cell I was removing while cutting and
> the current was large enough to bite a chunk out of the scissor blades...
>
> These are *very* low resistance cells, so the short circuit current
> consequently is very high, even at the low 3.5V of a single cell.
>
> Cor.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Overheating Tesla display

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah on Model 3/Y and 2021+ S/X it's only minimal screen electronics and
ser/des glue to encode/decode touch and video in the screen itself.  All
the expensive bits are liquid cooled.   I can't promise that the screens
will last forever in hot climates, but they should be way more reliable
than in other newer cars where the computer is still part of the screen
assembly.  If it does fail, it's pretty cheap to pop a used one in there,
only takes a few minutes, and no software is involved.  Will probably cost
less than $500.   The best you can do for avoidance is obvious, park
inside/in shade, or at least cover/tint, or run cabin overheat
protection.   I think the screen will last the effective life of the car if
those reasonable precautions are taken.   (I park my Tesla in a garage)

As for microinverters, I am somewhat against them from a reliability
standpoint, the temp cycling is extreme, and it's hard to make them very
reliable, though enPhase has done a good job.   On my system I use a SMA
inverter with series-strings, and the inverter is inside a climate
controlled shop.   With the newer rapid disconnect requirements,
series-string is now less attractive, because you still have to have power
electronics on the roof, but luckily my system was before that.


On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 11:58 AM  wrote:

> Thanks Phil.
>
>
>
> Good info - assuming there's *no* electrolytic caps inside that tend to
> dry out & fail *over time* when hot.
>
>
>
> There's some folks with heat related screen issues over time in hotter
> areas than Viginia (like Florida, Aridzona) - solution to tint
> windshield/also sun shade when parked:
>
>
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/unresponsive-screen-in-the-heat.273151/
>
>
>
> Looks like Tesla did what they usually do, try & fix it in a "free"
> software update (although this appears to be a different issue than sun
> overheating):
>
>
> https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-recall-overheating-infotainment-display/
>
>
>
> Last year I went through a similar issue with my older (M series) Enphase
> solar microinverters (mounted 1" from the back of solar panels) that some
> were dying in our new 100F+ (37.7C) heat (since global warming has become
> popular), found that the caps were cooking - since the inverters were
> mounted flat behind the solar panels, running about 100C.  Mounting them
> sideways (perpendicular to the panels) lowered their temp 20F and stopped
> the failures.
>
>
>
> Anyway, just thinking for longevity - I should figure out how to make the
> screen run cooler.
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org  (See Project Gallery)
>
> *UL* Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* (-Phil-)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2023 1:36 PM
> *To:* Mark Hanson 
> *Cc:* ev@lists.evdl.org
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Overheating Tesla display
>
>
>
> Oh, in the sun I'm sure the solar radiation is the biggest problem.   Test
> it in the shade and you'll see it barely gets warm.
>
>
>
> There is no danger from letting it get hot, again on your car there is no
> computer in there, it's just a screen.   The computer is behind the
> glovebox on the firewall and it's liquid-cooled.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 4:30 AM Mark Hanson 
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Phil
> So sounds like most of the heat is coming from the leds that brighten up
> when sunny, not the sun itself.  I thought of Epoxying a big finned heat
> sink on the back.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 27, 2023, at 2:21 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Overheating Tesla display

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Oh, in the sun I'm sure the solar radiation is the biggest problem.   Test
it in the shade and you'll see it barely gets warm.

There is no danger from letting it get hot, again on your car there is no
computer in there, it's just a screen.   The computer is behind the
glovebox on the firewall and it's liquid-cooled.

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 4:30 AM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Thanks Phil
> So sounds like most of the heat is coming from the leds that brighten up
> when sunny, not the sun itself.  I thought of Epoxying a big finned heat
> sink on the back.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 27, 2023, at 2:21 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] I destroyed an A123 26650 by shorting to the case.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, I'll second Cor's warning, they can put out a LOT of amps!

We got thousands of these from A123 in 2009, and built a '33 Ford replica
EV hot rod for a TV show.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:17 PM Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Lawrence, when I removed some of the cells from that pack that you picked
> up, I cut the straps with heavy duty scissors.
> One time I accidentally shorted the cell I was removing while cutting and
> the current was large enough to bite a chunk out of the scissor blades...
> These are *very* low resistance cells, so the short circuit current
> consequently is very high, even at the low 3.5V of a single cell.
> Cor.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 9:06 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > https://youtu.be/zEXx_2Caefc?si=j66-Advfy42A7-Aq I wasn't too careful
> > separating some cells. Nicked a few. Used in flashlights they are
> awesome.
> > However,  I nicked a few near the base and my hacked flashlight spring
> > shorted the cell. Smoke and brown fluid.  Oops. I will tape nicks and
> avoid
> > making them in the future. Also use an adapter of pvc for extra safety.
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Overheating Tesla display

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The recall is for the computer (ICE) not the screen.   The screen is
designed for automotive temps from -40C to 105C, it's going to be fine.
They have to put a lot of bright LEDs in there to compete with bright
sunlight.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:46 AM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> 
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135819_tesla-recalls-cars-for-overheating-issue-of-screens-not-battery-packs
> Has anyone noticed the backside of the Tesla 3 or Y screen really hot?
> And added a reflective coating or heat sink to correct the problem ?
> Stay Charged,
> Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] leaf 120 volt charging

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I tested some of this back in 2011, but my memory is fuzzy.  Most global
market EVs will be setup to accommodate the Japanese market which has line
voltage at 100VAC, so most OBCs (On-Board Chargers) will work down to about
90VAC or so.   The amperage is fixed by the EVSE pilot, though most OBCs
usually can't exceed around 15A below 200VAC limited by PSU architecture.

So a L1 EVSE limited to 12A at 90VAC will only have about a kW to play
with, by the time you account for overhead and efficiency losses, you'll be
lucky to get 750w into the battery.

As a counterpoint I discovered in 2014 that Tesla superchargers use the
same OBC module as found in the Model S at that time, and since
superchargers were running off of 480VAC, the Tesla OBC was rated to 300VAC
input.  (one wye leg of 480VAC is 277VAC)   I put a small boost transformer
to take my 240V voltage up by 40V to 280VAC and found my Model S could
charge at over 11kW vs 9.6kW on a standard 240V input.
To my knowledge all Teslas retain this 300VAC input capability as some of
the Tesla L2 destination chargers are also wired on 277VAC.  (This is also
why you should be very cautious if using an adapter to charge another brand
at a Tesla L2!)

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 9:57 AM redscooter via EV  wrote:

>   I want to know how it deals with weak circuts, like long cords, etc ?
> does it drop amerage load to keep the voltge up ? what low voltage does
> it cut off at? or how does it respond?
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Selling my Leaf.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

What year is it, how many miles, and what battery health level is it at?

On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 7:52 PM Lawrence Rhodes 
wrote:

> Just took delivery of a model Y. Bye bye my trusty ride. I thought I'd
> post her first for people who know the character of this vehicle.  No
> trouble except one flat. Newish tires. Will have it aligned before
> transferring. Make a reasonable offer and it's yours. Straight body. Loose
> drivers side door handle from tampering. Some smudges in the headliner from
> my trike. Seats and seat belts in good condition. Lawrence Rhodes
> _._,_._,_
> --
> Groups.io Links:
>
> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Seems this was tried in France for awhile, and I think it's now all but
gone.  (Cheap EV with Battery Lease)   Though I think one of the Chinese
brands; Nio (IIRC) was also doing this with great success in China.

On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 9:55 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I keep thinking (and fearing) that the auto industry will start using the
> "cheap printer and expensive ink" model. In the early 1900's, Henry Ford
> observed, "If I owned the gas stations, I'd *give* the cars away."
>
> So what happens if an auto company begins offering cheap or free cars, but
> only as long as you rent their batteries, and charge at their charging
> stations?
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Anyone can make a Wikipedia edit.  It was probably removed quickly because
most everyone realizes you can't make a car run with just water.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 6:57 AM Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:

>  > I've read through the Wikipedia entry 3 times, and
>  > I find nothing of the sort in it
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

No, I am not saying that.   Of course it takes energy to get a fuel in your
tank.   But Hydrogen is special, you have to put at least 2kWh in to get
out 1kWh at a minimum!  (Current Hydrogen cycles are about 3kWh in!)

Fossil and Nuclear are provided courtesy of nature, and it furnishes the
bulk of energy trapped inside.   Hydrogen must be manufactured.  You cannot
put "just water" into a system and have it produce energy.  If you believe
this, you were asleep in science class as a kid.   I'm not responding to
any more of your insanity.

On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 4:12 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:

> No, I am not saying that.   Of course it takes energy to get a fuel in
> your tank.   But Hydrogen is special, you have to put at least 2kWh in to
> get out 1kWh at a minimum!  (Current Hydrogen cycles are about 3kWh in!)
>
> Fossil and Nuclear are provided courtesy of nature, and it furnishes the
> bulk of energy trapped inside.   Hydrogen must be manufactured.  You cannot
> put "just water" into a system and have it produce energy.  If you believe
> this, you were asleep in science class as a kid.   I'm not responding to
> any more of your insanity.
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 4:01 PM 63urban via EV  wrote:
>
>> Not one of the energy sources you have list magically materializes inside
>> your automobile with no external expenditure of energy. Not petro products
>> and not nuclear. It is interesting how champions of one thing maximize the
>> inputs of their opponents thing while dancing like a feather over the
>> issues of their thing.Has anyone actually looked at the approach Toyota is
>> taking with hydrogen. They have taken their proven hybrid platform and
>> introduced a hydrogen component that takes on-board water and produces the
>> hydrogen at a rate required to fuel an ice.So the only infrastructure
>> required is water. If they can do this in an automobile that changes the
>> energy dynamic across the entire spectrum. It absolutely shrinks battery
>> demandIt absolutely shinks electrical infrastructure demands as everyone
>> can the generate their own power locally. Demand for copper shrinks Demand
>> for all the metals required for batteries shrink.There is zero pollution
>> generated in the operation of these engines. And we are still talking about
>> ev traction for the most part with little to none of the side
>> effects.Regardless of how the modern nuclear advertising campaign is green
>> washing their waste and risk situation none of it is necessary. There are
>> new and emerging technologies which will solve all of these issues.NickSent
>> from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
>>  Original message From: "(-Phil-) via EV" <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 2023-11-06  4:42 p.m.  (GMT-05:00) To: Electric
>> Vehicle Discussion List  Cc: "(-Phil-)" <
>> p...@ingineerix.com> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green
>> success. WHERE does the Hydrogen come from?  You can't mine it, you can't
>> harvestit, you have to either crack it from fossil fuels, or split it from
>> water,which takes a lot of energy (at least 2X what you get back).   It's
>> nodifferent than a battery.  You have to put energy in to get it, then
>> youget it out about half when you burn it or run it in a fuel cell.  It's
>> justan energy storage system, a little more energy-dense than
>> currentbatteries, and can be recharged a little faster.  It may have
>> goodapplication in future aircraft and shipping, maybe long-haul trucking,
>> butthat's about it.  It's definitely not something you'd want to use
>> forstationary storage, as it's too wasteful.   Using for transportation,
>> youmight accept the horrible efficiency in exchange for the convenience
>> anddensity.I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone on this list!On
>> Monday, November 6, 2023 at 12:40:07 PM PST, 63urban via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:>>  Please explain how a flammable gas is not
>> an energy source?>-- next part --An HTML attachment
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Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

WHERE does the Hydrogen come from?  You can't mine it, you can't harvest
it, you have to either crack it from fossil fuels, or split it from water,
which takes a lot of energy (at least 2X what you get back).   It's no
different than a battery.  You have to put energy in to get it, then you
get it out about half when you burn it or run it in a fuel cell.  It's just
an energy storage system, a little more energy-dense than current
batteries, and can be recharged a little faster.  It may have good
application in future aircraft and shipping, maybe long-haul trucking, but
that's about it.  It's definitely not something you'd want to use for
stationary storage, as it's too wasteful.   Using for transportation, you
might accept the horrible efficiency in exchange for the convenience and
density.

I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone on this list!

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 12:40:07 PM PST, 63urban via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

>
>  Please explain how a flammable gas is not an energy source?
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

What?  Hydrogen is NOT an alternative to Nuclear!   Hydrogen is a STORAGE
MEDIUM, not an energy source!Just like a battery pack, something needs
to charge it (generate the hydrogen).

Not to get too far off base, but Nuclear does not really have a waste
problem compared to fossil.  It's also massively safer (killed less
people).  In fact, your average coal plant puts an order of magnitude more
radioactive waste into the environment than a same sized coal plant!

On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 10:56 AM 63urban via EV  wrote:

> Hydrogen is an alternative to nuclear and more technology will be
> developed. Not a fan of nuclear for its danger and its waste.NickSent from
> my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
>  Original message From: Michael Ross via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 2023-11-06  1:41 p.m.  (GMT-05:00) To: Electric
> Vehicle Discussion List  Cc: Michael Ross <
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success. I
> note a couple things about Zeihan's POV: He is talking about
> globaldefossilizing. Not mere vehicle electrification. We face the fact
> that EVsare just a small part of what needs solving.If he is correct, and
> his business is doing the math, we need to work onthings that have a
> possibility of helping on a global scale. Much as I hatethe idea, all 7
> billion of us need nuclear solutions. There is a place forsolar and wind,
> but the sun doesn't shine enough where we need it and samewith wind. We
> should not waste our precious time and treasure on faultyplans.All the
> comments on this thread have failed to actually understand what heis
> talking about, or even watch it, seemingly.It is just arithmetic he is
> presenting. What is he getting wrong?He says if you add up all the copper
> in the world, how it has to get used,where more comes from, the time it
> takes to ramp production, accounting forrecycling, and so on, we are in
> trouble. Likewise, paladiums, tin, aluminum(take enormous amounts of
> electricity), magnet materials, and so on, wecome up way short.None of you
> out here make it your business to ferret out all the details.This is
> Zeihan's business and he has research staff behind him. I recommendhis most
> recent book which has a very interesting chapter on industrialmaterials. It
> is short and not fleshed out fully, but I follow his logic,and don't
> believe he has anything pushing him to make stuff up. He likesthe outdoors
> and wants a clean environment. But, he seems certain thatmaking any headway
> won't come from electrification except after manydecades, potentially a
> century. If he is anywhere near correct, then weneed to reconfigure our
> efforts. Now.On Sun, Nov 5, 2023, 2:19 PM Thos True via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:> I find it difficult to believe that we are
> once again being drawn into the> argument that the grid cannot support the
> demand for EV's.> Society has been in this situation several times since
> the early 1900's.> With each new electrical product's popularity
> (televisions, refrigerators,> air conditioners, hot tubs, washers and
> dryers, motorhomes, Mcmansions,> housing developments, fast food
> restaurants, factories, etc), the same> fearful cry was heard. Development
> of "the grid" has been ahead of demand> in the majority of markets,  as
> they are a business that wants to sell as> much of their products as
> possible. Even when the demand levels off,> utilities are continuously
> upgrading the equipment with more efficient> devices to maximize output
> utilizing the same foot print ( fenced in> facilities, usually).> Most
> vehicles use around the same amount of electricity per charge as> running a
> dryer for a couple of cycles (how many people think twice about> doing
> that?).> Just my 2 watts worth,> Tom True>> On Sat, Nov 4, 2023, 5:32 PM
> EV@TucsonEV via EV  wrote:>> > Well, once again, it
> looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into> > politics...> >> > Best
> regards,> >> > Rush Dougherty> > TucsonEV> > 1014 E King St> > Tucson AZ
> 85719> > 520 240 7493> > www.TucsonEV.com> >> >> >> >> >   EV List Lackey
> wrote -> > > "To understand the Republican party, or the Democratic party,
> for that> > matter,> > it is> > > most efficient to look directly at the
> clients -- or as political> > scientist> > Thomas> > > Ferguson would call
> them, the 'major investors.'> > > On that level, the ideological
> contradictions are unimportant.> Political> > parties do> > > function as
> mediating institutions, just not for voters."> > >> > > -- William Greider,
> "Who Will Tell the People"> >> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread
> has strayed from EV's into> > politics...> >> > Best regards,> >> > Rush
> Dougherty> > TucsonEV> > www.TucsonEV.com> >> >> >> >> >
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> http://www.evdl.org/help/> >> >> -- next part 

Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I found a lot of faults with his assessment, but he's a sharp guy.

He doesn't understand that even if coal powers an EV it's still cleaner
than ICE.   He also doesn't think the grid can support EVs, which is also
not true.

As far as materials, when there's a demand, the market will provide.

On Fri, Nov 3, 2023 at 7:30 PM Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> I can't evaluate this. But I approve of the broad stroke analysis.
> He thinks it could take a century to replace ICE with EVs. Among other
> things.
> Why EVs Aren't The GreenTech Panacea || Peter Zeihan
> https://youtu.be/8P95NFlAnmY?si=T460QtOCo9lwqfsz
> Bottom line for him, we should be spending our time and treasure on things
> that will actually make us greener.
> Bottom line for me, I bet we don't succeed with anything. There is no will
> or way as far as I can tell.
> The US has more means to do good than anyone one else, and here we are
> shutting down the EPA and so on.
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737  Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and
> Text
> (919) 576-0824 
> 
> 
>  Tablet, Google Phone
> and Text
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I seriously doubt any mainstream EV will ever be equipped with anywhere
near 1000 mile range packs regardless of technology, it just doesn't make
sense.   If somehow packs were to achieve 4x increase in energy density,
you'd see manufacturers install 4x smaller packs.  It doesn't make sense to
carry around huge excessive energy that's rarely used.  Even with the great
energy density of ICE, you don't see manufacturers adding 50 gallon tanks
to cars.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 11:31 AM Peter Eckhoff via EV 
wrote:

> The other thing that needs to be considered is the changing battery
> energy densities.  With various reports hinting at 4 to 5 times the
> energy density of current batteries, ranges of 300 miles could become
> 1200 to 1500 miles or packs that are 4 to 5 times smaller and with
> recharge times that are in the low double to single digits. I think
> the latter will be the norm with EV "touring" options where overnight
> motel guests can Level 2 or even Level 3 recharge.
>
> The idea being in that Level 3 chargers are moved to where people will
> be recharging on long trips leaving Level 1 and 2 to home charging.
> We often recharge at a Sheetz gas station that has a fast food
> restaurant and rest room facilities.  By the time we use the rest
> rooms, order and eat a meal, we are about ready to unplug and continue
> on our way.
>
> Just some ideas that may or may not pan out.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 2:08 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Peri Hartman wrote:
> > > I'll give my opinion on where EV charges should be located... Chargers
> need
> > > to be located where people can usefully spend some time. That may be
> at the
> > > grocery, a shopping center, a park, highway rest areas, a walkable
> > > neighborhood, a tourist destination, for example.
> >
> > Ah, but it doesn't matter where *we* want them located. What matters is
> where *they* want them located. How are gas stations going to continue to
> make money if we start charging and shopping somewhere other than their
> Food-n-Gas shops?
> >
> > --
> > Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >
> > ___
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> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[(-Phil-) via EV]

FYI, Tesla allowed towing on the Model 3 in EU spec vehicles.   They even
had a controller for the lights so you don't need to tap.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:30 PM Haudy Kazemi via EV 
wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 19:23 Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> >
> > > I still don't understand why the Tesla-3 says no towing and the Y does
> > with
> > > the *same* drive train.
> > >
> >
> > 1. Different frame.
> >
>
> Doubtful. Same car is tow rated in EU. Other manufacturers do the same
> thing with EU cars vs US cars of the same model, like Corollas.
>
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-introduces-model-3-tow-hitch-europe/
>
>
> > 2. So they can justify charging more for the Y.
> >
>
> This.
>
> Also:
> 3. cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think
> a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer.
>
> Yet actually cars CAN be setup to handle big trailers. Here's an example of
> a Model 3 easily pulling a 28' Airstream. Last year I saw the same
> Airstream being pulled behind a Model S. Owner has been cross country with
> this setup.
>
> Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX5lzqzZ2Do
>
> Video 2: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-olOdQVik
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Tesla's PMSRM motor and SiCFET inverter tech is also pretty amazing for
efficiency.

FYI: I have a 2018 Model 3 and I tow all the time with no issues.   Several
companies make a bolt-on hitch.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 7:48 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> I think you nailed it. The Y has a Cd of 0.23 according to a few sites I
> checked. That's a pretty awesome number compared to almost any other
> car.
>
> If your test driving includes a lot of steep hills or starts and stops,
> the Cd probably won't make much difference. I presume you are driving
> mostly at constant speeds on relatively level ground. In the latter
> case, the rolling resistance and Cd are the important factors.
>
> Also, residential streets versus highways make a difference, of course.
> The Cd has little effect until you get close to highway speeds.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark E. Hanson via EV" 
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" 
> Cc: markehans...@gmail.com
> Sent: 26-Oct-23 06:58:13
> Subject: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency
>
> >Hi Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> >I was curious why my Tesla-Y that's 4400 pounds came out ahead of my
> >conversions over the years (80's-2011) that averaged 334 watt hours per
> mile
> >or 3 miles per KWH (weighed closer to 2000lbs).  The Tesla-Y display which
> >is DC at the battery, shows 244 watt hours per mile.  I measured at the AC
> >outlet (actual KWH usage) with the KWH meter on OpenEVSE.com, also matched
> >the Tesla screen display at 36.77 KWH.
> >
> >
> >
> >The car traveled from 72,553 to 72,414 or 139 miles.  139/36.77=3.78 miles
> >per KWH or 264.5 watt hours per mile.  With the car display at 244 watt
> >hours per mile, that's a 7.7% efficiency loss through the onboard charger,
> >so impressive aero efficiency as indicated on the InsideEVs website
> >comparing all EVs.  Conversions are probably less efficient do to poorer
> >aero efficiency that takes an exponential hit at highway speeds.
> >
> >
> >
> >I was initially going to buy a Tesla-3 (now advertised at $37K) but said
> *no
> >towing* and the Y showed 3500 pounds of towing needed for towing my 5x8
> >trailer for solar panels/concrete/racking (solar volunteer club) and boat.
> >Not sure why the Tesla-3 says no towing when it uses the *same*
> drivetrain.
> >
> >
> >
> >BTW, I'm taking the advice of some and going to the dealer with the Bolt
> to
> >get the $1400 bait software 80% for 6200 miles - since the 2020 model
> >battery issues are less than 1% (most occurred in previous years
> 2017-2019).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Have a renewable energy day,
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark E. Hanson
> >
> >184 Vista Lane
> >
> >Fincastle, VA 24090
> >
> >540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> >
> >REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> >
> >Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> >
> >UL Certified PV Installer
> >
> >My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> >
> >REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> >
> >
> ><
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> >75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Right to Repair Tesla vs Aptera

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I've noticed there are 2 camps:  One side who views a car as an appliance
to get from A to B, and the other side who is either an enthusiast, and/or
views cars as status symbols.  My father is in the first camp.  I'm
somewhere in the middle, but I love technology and engineering.  My father
buys base model Toyotas, because they are reliable and get him from A to B
with little fanfare.   I enjoy a car with good performance and handling,
and enjoy features such as Tesla Autopilot (on the highway).  It has to be
reliable, but I will spend more to have those things.

Sadly there is little profit in selling cars to the A-B crowd, so
manufacturers concentrate on the other side mainly.  Lots of tech,
features, and now the trend is large touchscreens.   This is even slowly
trickling down to the A-B cars too.

I also disdain the loss of Privacy, but all my Teslas have been rooted and
I removed all the upstream logging.   Of course even with that I am still
fighting a losing battle.  My city recently installed ALPR (License Plate)
cameras at all roads into the city, so now everyone is tracked and put into
a privately-owned national database with no oversight.   I attempted to
raise objections, but the majority of sheeple in my town are glad that
these cameras are in because they "aren't doing anything wrong" and it may
help the cops catch criminals that devalue their property.

On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 9:32 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> David Heacock via EV wrote:
> > ...Tesla seems to think they own the vehicle even after they sell it to
> the customer.
> > ...a lot of talk about customer right to repair [but then block their
> ability to do so]
>
> It isn't just Tesla. All manufacturers are doing it. This just
> illustrates the tactics of modern marketing.
>
> - Counteract negative perceptions by loudly advertising the opposite.
> (Ads show SUVs off-road when in fact they are inept at it)
> - Badly-designed complex solutions are quicker and cheaper to design
> than well-thought-out simple ones.
> (Ford F-150 tail lights that cost $5000 to replace because it's a
> sealed assembly that includes computer modules, backup camera, etc.)
> - Customer service is expensive; so avoid it as much as possible.
> ("Your call is important to us"; then they put you on hold for an
> hour)
> - Planned obsolescence.
> (Rather than fix things, encourage customers to throw it out and
> buy
> another)
>
> > I was an early adopter of Apple computers and in the old days I always
> felt if you couldn't figure out how to use the computer for most of what it
> was capable of doing without reading the documentation it really wasn't
> what I wanted.
>
> That statement is a bit hard to understand. The early microcomputers I
> used (Apple II, Heathkit, Commodore, Atari) came with a *huge* amount of
> documentation that worked hard to explain how it worked. That was
> necessary because most people had little or no knowledge with computers.
>
> They also went out of their way to encourage the user to improve it and
> write their own programs. They were the equivalent of a Ford model T
> that came with a shop manual and a tool kit so you could fix it yourself.
>
> Today's cars are the complete opposite. They do everything possible to
> prevent you from understanding it or repairing it yourself.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I have found
> several thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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Re: [EVDL] Anybody want a prototype 1400A 600V DC controller?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I don't have a use for this, but I definitely want to gaze at the pics, Cor!

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 6:39 PM Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Has water-cooled IGBT with driver and a large ring capacitor, in and
> output via SB-350 Andersons with 2/0 cable.
> Spec says 1400A peak, 500A continuous.
> Has been on the shelf since about 10 years ago. Originally designed by EMW
> Pick up in Silicon Valley.
> Make me an offer, any accepted. NOTE: I can't test it, but it was in
> operational state when put away. We can discuss warranty if your offer
> depends on working parts.
> I can look up the spec of the ring capacitor but cannot see the part
> nr of the IGBT.
> The ring cap is 9" dia and I believe 800VDC.
> Pics on request.
> Cor.
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[EVDL] Video: Combat climate change – will tech solve the crisis or make it worse?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/promopages/techfor/siliconvalley/

"We brought our tech for event series to California:* Combat climate change
– will tech solve the crisis or make it worse?* We discussed this key
question with leading experts from different sectors."

"Temperature is rising. In over 140 years, average global temperature has
increased by over 1° Celsius. A significant amount, which is beginning to
leave its marks – globally.
We are already seeing and feeling the resulting environmental changes. But
this is just a taste of what’s to come above 1.5° Celsius. In comparison, a
five-degree drop covered a large part of North America under a mass of ice
over 20,000 years ago."

"This is why at tech for Silicon Valley we are *bringing together different
perspectives* on solutions toward a* sustainable future* in the context of
the *green energy transition*. We talked about clean power generation as
the prerequisite of green energy distribution and about the role of
technology as the key enabler of the clean energy transition."

*"To create an easier, safer and greener environment for generations to
come. Together.*"
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[EVDL] Unidentified EV in Montana (funny)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

https://montanafreepress.org/2023/07/27/what-happened-when-a-tesla-came-to-ekalaka-montana/
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[EVDL] 40A EVSE for $450

[(-Phil-) via EV]

This is a decent unit, on sale at Costo for $450:
https://www.costco.com/wallbox-pulsar-plus-lv-2-ev-smart-charger---40-amp-nema%2c-25
’-cable.product.4000181778.html
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

There are tons of hub motors used on e-bikes and stand-up scooters.   Most
of the time you will see that even these tiny motors aren't paired with
suspensions because then you get wheel hop.

If they are used on wheels that control your steering, then if you are
turning and hit a bump, you lose both traction and steering, and at least
for a short while the car goes where inertia says.  A wheel with a motor
installed has much more mass relative to the "sprung" portion of the
vehicle, so it will stay in the air much longer.

Using one on the rear of an Aptera wouldn't be too terrible, but they don't
do that, it's either only on the 2 front wheels, or all 3.   There is no
config with only one in the rear.

No thanks!

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 5:07 PM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> The hub motors that Aptera are using are made by Elaphe, see these videos I
> posted earlier:
> >> On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> >>> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
> >>> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
>
> Also, in case anyone saw the recent national news story where an Aptera
> overheated... We got details later, that car was a Gamma prototype from 18
> months ago for mostly aesthetic demos.  So it never has any cooling system
> components installed, so it's actually done quite well for basically being
> run with no active thermal management to speak of...
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 16:24 Josh Landess via EV  wrote:
>
> > I do think it's fair to give these things a chance in the public
> > marketplace, especially if it could be in a moderate passenger EV that
> > tries to highlight some of their strengths and not their weaknesses.  I
> > personally still would not consider buying one unless or until we see
> > extensive uninhibited feedback from unbiased drivers simply talking
> > about their experiences, good, bad or indifferent.
> >
> > A part of the problem is that such motors have been mentioned various
> > times as integral to saving energy and being part of an important EV
> > project, and then, somehow, they just don't quite make it to where we
> > can consider buying it.
> >
> > It's been a long time, but taking a quick look around I see these two
> > in-wheel hub motor providers are still in theory trying to make a go of
> > it.  There may be many more (perhaps someone can say who Aptera is using
> > if it isn't already clear), but just noting these two:
> > https://www.proteanelectric.com/
> > more than a decade ago, I seem to remember them issuing a white paper
> > that attempted to lay out some of the arguments in-favor-of, and address
> > some of the criticisms.  I don't know where things stand these days, but
> > taking a way-overly-quick look, it does seem at least they are still in
> > discussion with some automakers:
> > https://www.proteanelectric.com/news/
> >
> > for example:
> >
> > 28.Apr.23
> > Dongfeng Motor Showcases All-Wheel Drive Luxury Sedan Powered By
> > ProteanDrive, Weeks After Announcing Version Driven By Two In-Wheel
> Motors
> >
> >
> > and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
> > https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
> > however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
> > product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.
> >
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[EVDL] Tesla Megawatt Supercharger

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Tesla Megawatt Supercharger for semi in the wild:
https://twitter.com/RodneyaKent/status/1683865013814177792
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