[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - I think, therefore I am. Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that consciousness itself was the ultimate reality and that it was one, not two. In India they call this the Consciousness Only School, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu). (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
I can't wait for Girish to sell MUM and the Domes out from under you. From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - I think, therefore I am. Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that consciousness itself was the ultimate reality and that it was one, not two. In India they call this the Consciousness Only School, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu). (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
Like. That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Ramana Maharshi http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm On 7/5/2014 6:24 AM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf image http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - /I think, therefore I am./ Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that /consciousness itself was the ultimate reality/ and that it was /one, not two/. In India they call this the /Consciousness Only School/, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: /Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu)./ (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
On 7/5/2014 6:31 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I can't wait for Girish to sell MUM and the Domes out from under you. You seem to be distracted this morning - stressed out. It looks like you are starting to wake up to the reality of your own bleak situation. /Paying your rent is more important than Girish selling MUM and the Domes/. Wake up and sell the coffee! Post something we don't know that is interesting. Try to calm down. Try to figure it out. Good luck. P.S. Has anyone else noticed how when MJ gets all stressed out, all his messages begin with RE: and begin and end on one single line? *From:* dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:24 AM *Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf image http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - /I think, therefore I am./ Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that /consciousness itself was the ultimate reality/ and that it was /one, not two/. In India they call this the /Consciousness Only School/, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: /Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu)./ (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
Every day is the 4th of July for the illumined. Independence Day. It is true. -Buck in the Dome That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - I think, therefore I am. Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that consciousness itself was the ultimate reality and that it was one, not two. In India they call this the Consciousness Only School, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu). (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent [1 Attachment]
Illuminati On 7/5/2014 9:09 AM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Every day is the 4^th of July for the illumined. Independence Day. It is true. -Buck in the Dome That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf image http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - /I think, therefore I am./ Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that /consciousness itself was the ultimate reality/ and that it was /one, not two/. In India they call this the /Consciousness Only School/, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: /Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu)./ (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
Where's you evidence that Girish has any control over any property on the MUM campus? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I can't wait for Girish to sell MUM and the Domes out from under you. From: dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - I think, therefore I am. Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that consciousness itself was the ultimate reality and that it was one, not two. In India they call this the Consciousness Only School, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu). (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
Girish doesn't own any property on the MUM campus. There's no evidence that Girish owns anything in the U.S. MJ jut made up some BS and posted it, like he usually does. Go figure. On 7/5/2014 10:51 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] wrote: Where's you evidence that Girish has any control over any property on the MUM campus? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I can't wait for Girish to sell MUM and the Domes out from under you. *From:* dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:24 AM *Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf image http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.org http://www.adishakti.org/_/self-atma_the_teachings_of_sri_ramana_maharshi_part_one.htm#sthash.WdUTt0r4.dpuf Preview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - /I think, therefore I am./ Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that /consciousness itself was the ultimate reality/ and that it was /one, not two/. In India they call this the /Consciousness Only School/, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: /Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu)./ (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent
It was at one time owned by the Maharishi Group - who has ownership of it on paper is anyone guess. I said that merely to see how much stress it would shake out of Bucky's nervous system. From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 5, 2014 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent Where's you evidence that Girish has any control over any property on the MUM campus? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I can't wait for Girish to sell MUM and the Domes out from under you. From: dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 5, 2014 7:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing the Great Transcendent That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That which is, is mouna. How can mouna be explained in words? Sages say that the state in which the thoughtI(the ego) does not rise even in the least, alone is Self (swarupa) which is silence (mouna). That silent Self alone is God; Self alone is the jiva (individual soul). Self alone is this ancient world. All other kinds of knowledge are only petty and trivial knowledge; the experience of silence alone is the real and perfect knowledge. Know that the many objective differences are not real but are mere superimpositions on Self, which is the form of true knowledge.- Sri Ramana Maharshi - See more at: EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One EDITOR'S CHOICE: Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sr... (EC links to Homepage) Self-Atma: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Part One Two That state which transcends speech and thought is mouna. That whi... View on www.adishakti.orgPreview by Yahoo Yep and even before Descartes in the West, “Know thy Self” is the old dictum and spiritual saying from way back looking to the Unified Field. That truth is again brought forward in a transcendentalism of “a life well lived” at Walden Pond, versus this un-quieted desperation of the materialism of these anti-meditation neganauts displayed here. One can feel a grave concern for the sanity of our neganauts here based on what evidently is a growing body of clinical evidence to their negative obsessions with and their outbursts over transcending meditation and what clearly is the manifest transcendent experience of the Unified Field in others so attested to by so many adept in spirituality and human potential. May the great over-soul of the Unified Field have mercy on the small souls of our neganauts here in the unfoldment of their own awakening experience, -Buck sharelong60 writes: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: punditster writes: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelong60@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - I think, therefore I am. Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that consciousness itself was the ultimate reality and that it was one, not two. In India they call this the Consciousness Only School, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu). (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 7:59 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - I think, therefore I am. Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that consciousness itself was the ultimate reality and that it was one, not two. In India they call this the Consciousness Only School, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu). (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/20/2014 2:42 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Brilliant Share, brilliant! How about this one.Life is what you livetherefore what you live is life! After reviewing this thread, it is remarkable how accurate Share was with her definition of consciousness, compared to the other contributions. Go figure. ...the fact that I am having an experience is indisputable (to me, at least). This is all that is required for me (or any other conscious being) to fully establish the reality of consciousness. Consciousness is the one thing in this universe that cannot be an illusion. http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Richard, I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. What do you think? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/21/2014 9:44 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Thanks, Richard, I'm sure Descartes was a lovely fellow, but I'm sticking with the Buddhists and Hindus (-: There is only one non-dual philosophical system in India, Advaita Vedanta founded by the Adi Shankara. The Buddhist Yogacara died out in India in the 13th century. The /Consciousness Only School/ teaches the absence of duality between perceiving subject and the perceived object.^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yog%C4%81c%C4%81ra#cite_note-69 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
Richard, I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. What do you think? Have I once again gone round the bend? On Monday, May 19, 2014 11:45 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On 5/18/2014 7:31 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: R: But, in the ancient Indian view, everything that exists - matter and material - arise from the field of consciousness. The brain is a product of consciousness, not vice-versa. C: This is where Maharishi's teaching gets squirrelly. He basically claims that both are true depending on his audience he emphasizes one or the other. To impress scientists he sounds like a materialist, to sound more woo woo for his followers he emphasizes consciousness. In symposiums he would often get caught in the middle of his attempt to run both views with embarrassing results. The problem for MMY's materialistic views and that of many scientists, is that there is no evidence that consciousness exists in the material world. The only clue to subjectivity is subjectivity - only consciousness itself can attest to its own existence. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
Brilliant Share, brilliant! How about this one.Life is what you livetherefore what you live is life! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Richard, I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. What do you think? Have I once again gone round the bend? On Monday, May 19, 2014 11:45 PM, 'Richard J. Williams' punditster@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On 5/18/2014 7:31 PM, curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: R: But, in the ancient Indian view, everything that exists - matter and material - arise from the field of consciousness. The brain is a product of consciousness, not vice-versa. C: This is where Maharishi's teaching gets squirrelly. He basically claims that both are true depending on his audience he emphasizes one or the other. To impress scientists he sounds like a materialist, to sound more woo woo for his followers he emphasizes consciousness. In symposiums he would often get caught in the middle of his attempt to run both views with embarrassing results. The problem for MMY's materialistic views and that of many scientists, is that there is no evidence that consciousness exists in the material world. The only clue to subjectivity is subjectivity - only consciousness itself can attest to its own existence. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/20/2014 9:53 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I go with: consciousness exists. Which leads me to think that whatever seems to exist, I assume it too is consciousness. Addressing the important issues! The philosopher Rene Descartes put forth a famous theory - /I think, therefore I am./ Descartes was a dualist who believed that the mind was separate from the body. However, long before Rene Descarte the ancient Buddhists and Hindus had already formulated the notion of non-duality mentioned in the Upanishads - the notion that /consciousness itself was the ultimate reality/ and that it was /one, not two/. In India they call this the /Consciousness Only School/, ascribed to by the Adi Shankara and Arya Asanga. According to the Mahayana Sutra Lankara: /Pure consciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous. (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly perceives the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadatu)./ (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
Interestingly, neither of you addressed my point about Xeno's paragraph, much less refuted it. Xeno is obviously not a TM-TB. When he describes his own experience, he's clearly not rehashing Maharishi's teaching. But the paragraph I quoted from his post (below) is an instance of Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness, the corollary to Knowledge is structured in consciousness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/17/2014 8:11 AM, authfriend@... mailto:authfriend@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: The first paragraph here is a good example of what Maharishi meant by Knowledge is structured in consciousness. If a person is not conscious, there would for him be no knowledge of any kind, philosophical, religious, or scientific. This is not a matter of debate because everyone already knows it to be a fact of common experience. C: Agreed. This is the obvious part that makes the statement a circular definition like awareness is being aware. R: If consciousness was just an epiphenomenon of the brain and the nervous system it would not be a fundamental of nature - it would just be an effect, not a cause. C: Yes and we have a lot of evidence for our awareness being affected by chemicals, so it is not primary to the brain's function. R: But, in the ancient Indian view, everything that exists - matter and material - arise from the field of consciousness. The brain is a product of consciousness, not vice-versa. C: This is where Maharishi's teaching gets squirrelly. He basically claims that both are true depending on his audience he emphasizes one or the other. To impress scientists he sounds like a materialist, to sound more woo woo for his followers he emphasizes consciousness. In symposiums he would often get caught in the middle of his attempt to run both views with embarrassing results. R:This duality, which consists of subject and object, is a mere vibration of consciousness. Pure consciousness is ultimately objectless; hence, it is declared to be eternally without relations. - Mandukya Karika IV.72 C: I don't find that conceptually meaningful although it is nice poetry. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... wrote : While alive, everybody has experience, consciousness. So 'something' is making the content of experience visible. There is always a 'witness'. The mind's interpretation of what this so-called witness is changes with practice (whichever one or ones are being used). The 24/7 kind of inner witnessing is one of those stages of change that many experience. My experience is that it basically evaporated, almost like it became a mist and soaked into the world of outer experience as if the outer world was a sponge and just vanished, that is, the so-called witness becomes identical with all other experience, with thought, objects, and action. So one cannot say 'I' am witnessing. At this point witnessing has no centre, no location, it is no longer like a receiver of experience, like an homunculus, like a little man in your head watching stuff. Descriptions and models of consciousness completely break down at this point, they are of no use because it is not possible to formulate a model that includes everything; the only thing that makes it intelligible in some way is the experience itself.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/18/2014 7:31 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: If a person is not conscious, there would for him be no knowledge of any kind, philosophical, religious, or scientific. This is not a matter of debate because everyone already knows it to be a fact of common experience. C: Agreed. This is the obvious part that makes the statement a circular definition like awareness is being aware. According to Sam Harris, nobody doubts that they are conscious of being conscious, even if it is a circular definition. If a person is conscious /in any way/, that is consciousness. You didn't offer your own definition of consciousness. It is surely a sign of our intellectual progress that a discussion of consciousness no longer has to begin with a debate about its existence. To say that consciousness may only seem to exist is to admit its existence in full—for if things seem any way at all, that is consciousness. Sam Harris on Consciousness: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/18/2014 7:31 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: R: If consciousness was just an epiphenomenon of the brain and the nervous system it would not be a fundamental of nature - it would just be an effect, not a cause. C: Yes and we have a lot of evidence for our awareness being affected by chemicals, so it is not primary to the brain's function. Empirical consciousness is related to the physical world and is dependent on it - /pure consciousness/ on the other hand, is not. The physical world is dependent on consciousness, not the other way around. This is basic Vedanta and Vajrayana 101. Only self-consciousness can know itself, by itself, through the self-consciousness alone. In the Indian perspective, this type of Self-knowledge is pure consciousness. ...the fact that I am having an experience is indisputable (to me, at least). This is all that is required for me (or any other conscious being) to fully establish the reality of consciousness. Consciousness is the one thing in this universe that cannot be an illusion. Sam Harris on Consciousness: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/18/2014 7:31 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: R: But, in the ancient Indian view, everything that exists - matter and material - arise from the field of consciousness. The brain is a product of consciousness, not vice-versa. C: This is where Maharishi's teaching gets squirrelly. He basically claims that both are true depending on his audience he emphasizes one or the other. To impress scientists he sounds like a materialist, to sound more woo woo for his followers he emphasizes consciousness. In symposiums he would often get caught in the middle of his attempt to run both views with embarrassing results. The problem for MMY's materialistic views and that of many scientists, is that there is no evidence that consciousness exists in the material world. The only clue to subjectivity is subjectivity - only consciousness itself can attest to its own existence. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/18/2014 7:31 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: R:This duality, which consists of subject and object, is a mere vibration of consciousness. Pure consciousness is ultimately objectless; hence, it is declared to be eternally without relations. - Mandukya Karika IV.72 C: I don't find that conceptually meaningful although it is nice poetry. It is the keystone in the arch of both Advaita Vedanta and Buddhist Vijnanavada. Duality is only an appearance; non-duality is the real truth. The object exists as an object for the knowing subject; but it does not exist outside of conciousness because the distinction of subject and object is within consciousness. - Mandukya Karika IV - Gaudapada. Work cited: (IV 25-27) Sharma, p. 245-246. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
On 5/17/2014 8:11 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The first paragraph here is a good example of what Maharishi meant by Knowledge is structured in consciousness. If a person is not conscious, there would for him be no knowledge of any kind, philosophical, religious, or scientific. This is not a matter of debate because everyone already knows it to be a fact of common experience. If consciousness was just an epiphenomenon of the brain and the nervous system it would not be a fundamental of nature - it would just be an effect, not a cause. But, in the ancient Indian view, everything that exists - matter and material - arise from the field of consciousness. The brain is a product of consciousness, not vice-versa. This duality, which consists of subject and object, is a mere vibration of consciousness. Pure consciousness is ultimately objectless; hence, it is declared to be eternally without relations. - Mandukya Karika IV.72 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : While alive, everybody has experience, consciousness. So 'something' is making the content of experience visible. There is always a 'witness'. The mind's interpretation of what this so-called witness is changes with practice (whichever one or ones are being used). The 24/7 kind of inner witnessing is one of those stages of change that many experience. My experience is that it basically evaporated, almost like it became a mist and soaked into the world of outer experience as if the outer world was a sponge and just vanished, that is, the so-called witness becomes identical with all other experience, with thought, objects, and action. So one cannot say 'I' am witnessing. At this point witnessing has no centre, no location, it is no longer like a receiver of experience, like an homunculus, like a little man in your head watching stuff. Descriptions and models of consciousness completely break down at this point, they are of no use because it is not possible to formulate a model that includes everything; the only thing that makes it intelligible in some way is the experience itself. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/17/2014 8:11 AM, authfriend@... mailto:authfriend@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: The first paragraph here is a good example of what Maharishi meant by Knowledge is structured in consciousness. If a person is not conscious, there would for him be no knowledge of any kind, philosophical, religious, or scientific. This is not a matter of debate because everyone already knows it to be a fact of common experience. C: Agreed. This is the obvious part that makes the statement a circular definition like awareness is being aware. R: If consciousness was just an epiphenomenon of the brain and the nervous system it would not be a fundamental of nature - it would just be an effect, not a cause. C: Yes and we have a lot of evidence for our awareness being affected by chemicals, so it is not primary to the brain's function. R: But, in the ancient Indian view, everything that exists - matter and material - arise from the field of consciousness. The brain is a product of consciousness, not vice-versa. C: This is where Maharishi's teaching gets squirrelly. He basically claims that both are true depending on his audience he emphasizes one or the other. To impress scientists he sounds like a materialist, to sound more woo woo for his followers he emphasizes consciousness. In symposiums he would often get caught in the middle of his attempt to run both views with embarrassing results. R:This duality, which consists of subject and object, is a mere vibration of consciousness. Pure consciousness is ultimately objectless; hence, it is declared to be eternally without relations. - Mandukya Karika IV.72 C: I don't find that conceptually meaningful although it is nice poetry. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... wrote : While alive, everybody has experience, consciousness. So 'something' is making the content of experience visible. There is always a 'witness'. The mind's interpretation of what this so-called witness is changes with practice (whichever one or ones are being used). The 24/7 kind of inner witnessing is one of those stages of change that many experience. My experience is that it basically evaporated, almost like it became a mist and soaked into the world of outer experience as if the outer world was a sponge and just vanished, that is, the so-called witness becomes identical with all other experience, with thought, objects, and action. So one cannot say 'I' am witnessing. At this point witnessing has no centre, no location, it is no longer like a receiver of experience, like an homunculus, like a little man in your head watching stuff. Descriptions and models of consciousness completely break down at this point, they are of no use because it is not possible to formulate a model that includes everything; the only thing that makes it intelligible in some way is the experience itself. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing
The first paragraph here is a good example of what Maharishi meant by Knowledge is structured in consciousness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : While alive, everybody has experience, consciousness. So 'something' is making the content of experience visible. There is always a 'witness'. The mind's interpretation of what this so-called witness is changes with practice (whichever one or ones are being used). The 24/7 kind of inner witnessing is one of those stages of change that many experience. My experience is that it basically evaporated, almost like it became a mist and soaked into the world of outer experience as if the outer world was a sponge and just vanished, that is, the so-called witness becomes identical with all other experience, with thought, objects, and action. So one cannot say 'I' am witnessing. At this point witnessing has no centre, no location, it is no longer like a receiver of experience, like an homunculus, like a little man in your head watching stuff. Descriptions and models of consciousness completely break down at this point, they are of no use because it is not possible to formulate a model that includes everything; the only thing that makes it intelligible in some way is the experience itself. What is especially intriguing is the actual experience is no different from the way it was prior to starting spiritual life, nothing is changed. This is why some teachers say one is already enlightened. It is almost as if the spiritual path is an aberration you have to grow out of to gain fulfilment; you think it is going to somehow save you and make things better, but it is just part of the dream you are trying to wake up from. Except you were already awake from the beginning. So in this sense enlightenment really does not exist. The Zen phrase 'selling water by the river' is actually pretty much how the whole thing comes down. Models are just navigation points, and roughed out approximations. People's experiences as they grow have wide variations that never seem to fit that well into the models, except perhaps for a few. So evaluating others' experiences on the basis of their conformity to a particular model has a wide possibility of error. The goal is to get people to have this experience of totality, not to berate them for their lack of conformance to a model as one is interpreting it. The spiritual path reeks with smugness, and none of us are immune.
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Witnessing the Witnessor'...
The best source for this type of thing is 'Mooji' who has lot's of videos on the internet... He follows the path of 'Self-Inquiry'...the path made by Ramama Maharishi; he studied with Papaji, who studied with Ramama. This is just the exploration in meditation concerning 'Who is Experiencing' Whether the meditator is experiencing the mantra or the sutra, the question remains, who is the 'Experiencer'... And it is recognised that this experiencer, is the witnessing awarness, at the bottom of Maharishi's Bubble Diagram... But TM'ers and Sidhas sometimes get so 'caught up' or 'over-shadowed' by the experience of the mantra or the sutra, that they never let go completely enough to just be in the 'Silence of Being' where they are in the 'Abstract Witness'... Here is where all self-referral takes place, innocently, effortlessly... Here is where Maharishi calls the 'Simplest State of Awareness'... That we just stay with this witnessor this simplest form of awareness, this self-referral awareness, beyond the mind, beyond thoughts, beyond emotions, beyond even the intellect, because here is where the intellect just stops functioning, because it is not need here... This back and forth of the intellect is not needed here, because this is being reflecting back on itself... Some people in Mooji's group have no idea what he is talking about, befause many of them never practiced TM and that is where the value of TM is most clearly seen; in some of the inquires discussed in Mooji's Satasangs'... Similarly, in the TM camp, many people take the mantra to be the final destination, or levitaton to be the final 'proof' and so miss the whole point of the teaching; and that is to transcend the mantra, transcend thought, transcend sutras...and when you have done this then the practice ends; whereby you continue a different practice then; which is not really a practice at all... You just sit in Being... And witness all that there is... Jai Guru Dev P.S. there is a further technique which I heard that Raja Ram gave to someone, and that is, during the time you are sitting in Beingness, and certain memories come to mind, just witness them from the 'Third Eye'where there is spiritual sight...and just witness it coming and going the pictures the memories and just let them all go, and this will purify any lingering 'karmas' having to do with the lessons which were attatched to these memories... 'See' them without attatchement, just as they go by... Jai Guru Dev
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Witnessing the Witnessor'...
I think that you'll find that people who have been practicing TM since they were 10 for 50 years now, find MMY's exposition still fresh and new. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: Not really... Many times he didn't want to confuse people who weren't at the level where they could understand what he was saying... Because people need to have an innocent first exerience, and don't know anything about witnessing yet, unless they were studying some other spiritual books like Ramana Maharishi... But, people who have had years of experience with mantra meditation and sidhi practice could understand more broadly what witnessing means and what it ultimately evolves into... But, to talk too much about witnessing to an early meditator he felt would be confusing, except to touch on the subject of 'No mantra, no thought' and the Concept of Cosmic Consciousness' talked about on the 3rd night of checking.. Robert --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Sounds kinda counter to everything I have ever heard MMY say... L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: When you can become aware of 'witnessing the witnessor' then you will be opening the door to Brahman Consciousness... � Herein lies the process of this witnessing expanding to include the whole cosmos... � Just like we are 'remembering the mantra' in TM... And, just like we are 'remembering the flavor(feeling of sutra)Sutra... Then, just like this, we are remembering the witnessing value of our awareness... � Whether we are practicing TM or Sutra Practice or Asana Practice or Pranayama Practice, we can remember to remember the witnessing value of our awareness � 'What we place our attention on grows',... � Therefore, as we continue the practice of placing our awareness on the witnessing aspect of our awarness, then the ability to maintain the witnessing aspect begins to take hold and grow in our geneal awarnesswhether we happen to be in deep sleep or dreaming or just waking up, we allow this witnessing value of our awareness to maintain itself fully... � We just need to 'Remember to remember'/ And because we are familiar with Dyhana Shakti, the inward stroke of meditation, we immediately feel the 'seeing within toward that witnessing aspect of our own awareness... � This witnessing value, begins to realize in time, that it can 'Return to Itself' over and over again and create from it's own nature of 'Beingness'... � Our 'Beingness' becomes more lively as we practice maintaining our awareness at the very source of thought within, that which is beyond thought, to the witnessing aspect of our own consciousness... � Jai Guru Dev
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Witnessing the Witnessor'...
Sounds kinda counter to everything I have ever heard MMY say... L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: When you can become aware of 'witnessing the witnessor' then you will be opening the door to Brahman Consciousness... � Herein lies the process of this witnessing expanding to include the whole cosmos... � Just like we are 'remembering the mantra' in TM... And, just like we are 'remembering the flavor(feeling of sutra)Sutra... Then, just like this, we are remembering the witnessing value of our awareness... � Whether we are practicing TM or Sutra Practice or Asana Practice or Pranayama Practice, we can remember to remember the witnessing value of our awareness � 'What we place our attention on grows',... � Therefore, as we continue the practice of placing our awareness on the witnessing aspect of our awarness, then the ability to maintain the witnessing aspect begins to take hold and grow in our geneal awarnesswhether we happen to be in deep sleep or dreaming or just waking up, we allow this witnessing value of our awareness to maintain itself fully... � We just need to 'Remember to remember'/ And because we are familiar with Dyhana Shakti, the inward stroke of meditation, we immediately feel the 'seeing within toward that witnessing aspect of our own awareness... � This witnessing value, begins to realize in time, that it can 'Return to Itself' over and over again and create from it's own nature of 'Beingness'... � Our 'Beingness' becomes more lively as we practice maintaining our awareness at the very source of thought within, that which is beyond thought, to the witnessing aspect of our own consciousness... � Jai Guru Dev
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, presence, openness (was Hierarchy Addiction)
On Apr 4, 2011, at 6:04 PM, jpgillam wrote: You can bet Maharishi would have loved that term. He loved puns. You can almost see the dollar signs in his eyes and hear that cha- ching sound.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, presence, openness (was Hierarchy Addiction)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jpgillam jpgillam@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: I found [witnessing] incredibly liberating, a sense of having dropped all the baggage I had been lugging around, a huge feeling of relief, most definitely something good. But the first time I had the experience, I didn't realize it was witnessing. That didn't even occur to me until it was well past. Same thing for me, Judy. My first witnessing experience occurred before I even learned TM. I was about 18 and knew something very different had happened for a few hours. And during it I felt terrific in every way and functioned really well. I had no name to give it, but will never forget it. Without any spiritual construct I knew I liked that experience. - and preferred it to my typical state. It seemed a way to go through life that was so very easy and effortless while still doing the usual stuff. What word would you use to describe that experience? What term did you use before learning about witnessing? I know you're asking wayback, but I thought I'd add another comment. I did know about witnessing before I had my first experience thereof, but the term and concept didn't come to mind at all during the experience, because based on the way it had been described, I had a very different idea of what it would be like. The whole notion that we're pre-programmed to think we're having certain experiences is, to my mind, nonsense, because the experiences themselves simply can't be described well enough. *After* the experience one can look back and realize what was being described was what one had experienced, but it just doesn't work the other way around. Anyway, if I had to pick one word to describe the experience, it would be unfettered. I ask because it relates to a previous conversation in which I elicited terms for being with it or on. Barry had suggested openness. And the term presence is gaining currency; I saw it in a New Yorker cartoon recently and thought that may be the default term people will start using for having one's center in the non-changing self, as opposed to being centered in one's thoughts and feelings. Thanks.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, presence, openness (was Hierarchy Addiction)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jpgillam jpgillam@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: I found [witnessing] incredibly liberating, a sense of having dropped all the baggage I had been lugging around, a huge feeling of relief, most definitely something good. But the first time I had the experience, I didn't realize it was witnessing. That didn't even occur to me until it was well past. Same thing for me, Judy. My first witnessing experience occurred before I even learned TM. I was about 18 and knew something very different had happened for a few hours. And during it I felt terrific in every way and functioned really well. I had no name to give it, but will never forget it. Without any spiritual construct I knew I liked that experience. - and preferred it to my typical state. It seemed a way to go through life that was so very easy and effortless while still doing the usual stuff. What word would you use to describe that experience? What term did you use before learning about witnessing? I ask because it relates to a previous conversation in which I elicited terms for being with it or on. Barry had suggested openness. And the term presence is gaining currency; I saw it in a New Yorker cartoon recently and thought that may be the default term people will start using for having one's center in the non-changing self, as opposed to being centered in one's thoughts and feelings. Thanks. At the time I did not give it a single name and did not feel the need to. I just thought of it as an amazing time where I felt totally my self and my best self possible that I knew I always had inside - and then some. I felt in tune with everything and everyone, completely open to life, no defenses or extraneous thoughts, just being. I actually prefer the wordy description I just gave to the term witnessing, which does tend to lump experiences into a box. But labeling these experiences certainly is handy in discussions and simplifies things, as long as we all agree on the underlying basics - a big assumption I guess. I like presence. Or having one's center in the non-changing self is excellent.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, presence, openness (was Hierarchy Addiction)
Thanks for the reminder of open presence. You had shared that term before, but I typically need to hear something a few times for it to stick. You can bet Maharishi would have loved that term. He loved puns. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 4, 2011, at 4:38 PM, jpgillam wrote: I ask because it relates to a previous conversation in which I elicited terms for being with it or on. Barry had suggested openness. And the term presence is gaining currency; I saw it in a New Yorker cartoon recently and thought that may be the default term people will start using for having one's center in the non-changing self, as opposed to being centered in one's thoughts and feelings. Meditation researchers are currently using the phrase open presence to describe certain types of nondual meditation and it's experience.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Let's take the question: Who are you and what do you really do? The domain in which the question is asked, is the same domain in which it is answered. That domain does not go away, it is not diminished, that domain does not become dishonest. Only in the context of an ever-expanding self does that domain shrink - in WS, that domain is all we've got, in CC that domain appears as though it's painted on (something?), in BC that domain exists only in the boundaries, it allows one to distinguish this from that, to point out Tom, Dick and Harry. Again, let's take the question: Who are you and what do you really do? Intellectually we know that the answer lies tenuously in our memory, what we've experienced, what we've been told and how we've been programmed to think, and, etc. I was born here, grew up here, went to this school, met this person, had some kids, moved here . . . and so on In WS our identity is bound this narrative and instinctively we know how shaky this narrative is and so we spend a disproportionate amount of time propping it up, we embellish it, feed it and rehash it, rehash it, rehash it over and over because if we lose it, it's back to square one. In CC, if we lose our memory, we also lose that narrative - but we don't lose our identity, our Self - - - and so, if the prospect of losing that narrative leaves a wicked transcendental smile on your face - that's CC
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam That's interesting. According to Bhoja-deva: hRdayaM shariirasya pradesha-visheSas tasminn adho-mukha-svalpa- puNDariikaabhyantare 'ntaHkaraNa-sattvasya sthaanaM tatra kRta-saMyamasya **sva-para-citta-jñaanam** utpadyate | I've never seen that comment translated. This is just a quick, inevitably rather inaccurate translation of the first sentence(?) as I don't intend to consult Mr. Dictionary very much this time (Sanskrit words without sandhi, that's why they may appear a bit different from the forms in the context): Heart (hRdayam) [is] a special (visheSaH) place(? pradesha) of the body (shariirasya), there (tasmin) [exists], inside (? abhyantare) in a/the down-faced (adho-mukha) small(svalpa) lotus (puNDariika) the place (sthaanam) of the essence (?sattva-sya) of the internal organ (antaHkaraNa). For one who does saMyama (kRta-saMyamasya; that translation assumes kRta-saMyama is a bahuvriihi-compound, which it necessarily ain't...) on it (on hRdaya-puNDariika?), appears (utpadyate) knowledge (jñaanam) of own(sva)[and?]-other(para)-mind (citta).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
Ruth wrote: I can't grok this. Can you recommend a reading? The Mandukhya Upanishad is the keystone in the arch of Shankara's Adwaita Vedanta. The scripture was made famous by Gaudapadacharya, the teacher of the teacher of Shankara. Gaudapada composed a famous Karika or commentary on Mundakhya, and Shankara composed a commentary on both, for our understanding. Mandukya Upanishad describes the three consituent phonemes which are identified with the three states of conciousness, deep sleep state, dream state, and the waking state. The Upanishad proposes a fourth state of conciousness which is termed Turiya, the Fourth, that is, the Transcendental State. Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 31 Jan 2005 18:38:44 -0800 Local: Mon, Jan 31 2005 8:38 pm Subject: Maharishi's Ontology - Seven States http://tinyurl.com/2pznf8
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
Vaj wrote: The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). snip Your post doesn't seem to have anything to do with the witnessing described by the exponents of the Adwaita tradition beginning with Guadapadacharya. According to Shankara, there is a fourth state in which the witnessing occurs. But, there is no way for a person to witness the Brahman in either the waking or the dream state - those states are part and parcel of the state of maya. This is the substratum of even the other three states of experience. During the silence that follows the recitation of aum, one is advised to merge in that Consciousness, in fact, be that Consciousness. That Consciousness is the Atman. That is Brahman. To underscore the point that the 'fourth state' is not another 'state' of consciousness, but consciousness itself, turi-ya avastha- is simply called turi-ya (the fourth). Beyond the three states: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukya_Upanishad
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Sandi Ego wrote (snipped): witnessing is nothing more than the first glimpses of ceding the individual ego to the cosmic ego. after awhile the cosmic ego predominates and the individual ego disappears. just as you said, it is all a matter of integration. The companion of silence which initially seems foreign is later found to be true identity. Me (truncated): That is my experience exactly, Sandy. And it also seems to me to be the case that language becomes somewhat of an a priori lie at that point. When I am truly my Self, language that was habitual when I was self is not adequate at all. On the other hand, if I write as Self dictates, the results are often strange. And when I first began witnessing deep sleep, I hated it big time because I was witness to a tired and badly managed physiology in all it's debilitated glory that I still identified with to a degree to great for comfort. However, the individual ego doesn't exactly disappear. It's there as a tool or a mouthpiece when needed. a Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
Vaj wrote: If you dig a more Hindu trip, try Enlightenment Without God by Swami Rama. Apparently this book is no longer in print. Is this a direct quotation from the Swami's book? If so, there's no attribution in your post. The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). snip I think I have this book in my collection, but I'm not sure, since my collection is divided between three states, CA, TX, and NM. Enlightenment Without God mysteriously went out-of-print when the master's foremost American student, Rajmani Tigunait - Dick Kirchner 'Enlightenment Without God' by Swami Rama Himalayan Institute, 1982 10 used new available from $59.58 http://tinyurl.com/yvnm5l In his ka-rika- on the Upanishad, Gaudapada deals with all the outstanding problems of philosophy, such as perception, idealism, causality, truth, and reality. In turiya, he says the mind is not simply withdrawn from the objects but becomes one with Brahman, who is free from fear and who is all-round illumination. In both deep sleep and transcendental consciousness there is no consciousness of objects. But this objective consciousness is present in an unmanifested 'seed' form in deep sleep while it is completely transcended in the turi-ya. Specifically, if one identifies the ama-tra- state of silence with the turi-ya and meditates on it without intermission, one realizes one's self and 'there is no return for him to the sphere of empirical life', says Gaudapada. Source: Gaudapada's thesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukya_Upanishad
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. I agree that it likely was dissociation, but it certainly was an effective way of dealing with an accident and it ended as soon as the accident ended, with me able to remember every detail. Moments of dissociation are highly adaptive. I agree that the Alpha pattern is associated with rest, with brain idling. But I when I think about the intellect dominating, I generally think beta activity, using your intellect to process information and problem solve. Gamma is associated with concentration. When you apay attention to an object of attention, alpha gets blocked. Or, in MMY's terms, self-referral consciousness gets lost in object-referral consciousness. Fear and heightened states of arousal can correlate with beta and gamma activity. Also, heightened states of consciousness or awareness can correlate with gamma activity. So I can see that dissociation occurring during a car accident or when you face an emergency and need to act without panic, could be correlated with gamma activity. Do you have a cite which relates gamma activity to dissociation? I have a site that correlates increased assymetry in hemisopheric functioning with dissociation... Just look for dissociative states and EEG on entrez-vous. Dissociative states where people space out and forget what they did probably correlates with increased alpha activity and not gamma activity all at. Two different kinds of dissociation, yes? Alpha would not be dissociation because it is RESTING. Disociation implies watching something *going on*. with Pure Concciousness, there is nothing going on. When alpha is blocked, somethign starts to go on. However, I disagree that gamma activity is simply a matter of the intellect dominating. Like some TM'ers argue that alpha activity is of major significance (not just a matter of rest) , some buddists would argue gamma activity is of major significance (not just a matter of perception). Again, look at that url. The alpha synchrony there is 100% across a dozen or so leads. !00 percent, as in, you can (as Fred Travis did in that illustration) draw a vertical line with a ruler down the peaks of all leads... The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked out my crazy at night. Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. Lawson So then, what would be the signs of witnessing sleep? May I also ask what is your background? Alpha synchrony + regular sleep EEG I believe. 35 years reading this stuff and talking to researchers about it. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:09 PM, sparaig wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). Actually that EEG is a waking state EEG--that's what alpha is! Alpha is a resting state activity and yes, its normally associated with waking state AND dreaming state. However, with witnessing sleep, you see alpha synchrony as well. The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Actually what high amplitude gamma coherence likely represents in these meditators is profoundly coherent networks of neurons connecting large parts of the cortex. It's very unlikely that in this case it has to do with intellect since the style of meditation was of non-referential compassion. Non-referential means beyond any sort of subject/object dichotomy and any sort of intervening process. If there was any effort, it would be very unlikely that they could do their meditation for long without being exhausted. Yet they can meditate like this for many, many hours (7-12 in the most recent research) and come out totally refreshed. Which parts of hte brain were activated, however... What it does correlate well with is the EEG's of Hindu meditators in samadhi. And likely with Bhddhist meditators doing other meditation techniques besides the one illustrated. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked out my crazy at night. Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. I believe you meant witnessing deep sleep. One can witness in any state of consciousness. In fact when I was taught the technique for witnessing, one is taught how to shift between the various states. Deliberately shifting states is deliberately doing something, which is NOT witenssing, by definition... Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. While I'd like to make that same assumption, I find that if I'm honest with myself, I cannot. It may feel that way at the time, but the bottom line is that witnessing is Just Another Subjective Experience. We have all been carefully taught how to interpret those subjective experience, in the TMO and/or in other spiritual traditions. But there is no surety that their interpretation is the correct one IMO. There's a distinct patter of EEG for witnessing ala TM. Its associated with non-sensory- related brain activity --an idling state, as it were. By non-sensory I mean activity that isn't driven/influenced by input from the thalamus. Its just ongoing optimization activity, or so I suspect since any time neurons are alive, they're attempting to optimize their connections with their neighbors--thats why isolated neurons in petri dishes look like amoebae: they're desperately seeking input to optimize. At the most fundamental level, thats all neurons EVER do (besides eat and excrete) but the independent optimization process gets overwhelmed at times by reactions to inputs from sensory centers. Lawson How distinct is this really? Arguably, spending too much time in alpha leads to the brain desperately seeking imput. So, get up, get going, and do something. Ruth. Look at that EEG pattern of Alpha activity on my website. Notice the lines that have been drawn vertically across all leads. Find any other EEG trace anywhere in the world where you can do that, please. Is that distinct enough for you? Lawson
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 26, 2008, at 3:25 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:09 PM, sparaig wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). Actually that EEG is a waking state EEG--that's what alpha is! Alpha is a resting state activity and yes, its normally associated with waking state AND dreaming state. However, with witnessing sleep, you see alpha synchrony as well. If you believe what you're told. When HH Swami Rama witnessed deep sleep--and gave concrete evidence of being able to remain witness of his senses--he was in clear delta, not alpha silly. I guess that made this the macho yogic thing to do when you're sleeping, huh? I automatically find myself wondering if he also the mastered the-sucking-up-fluids-with-your-penis siddhi! It's my understanding that when MIU researchers (as announced in the Brain-Mind Bulletin) tried the same experiment (being able to use the fact that people in true witnessing can remain alert of their surroundings while still in delta) they failed. Not so surprisingly, I can't find any mention of the research announced in the Brain Mind Bulletin anymore. What's that about? The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Actually what high amplitude gamma coherence likely represents in these meditators is profoundly coherent networks of neurons connecting large parts of the cortex. It's very unlikely that in this case it has to do with intellect since the style of meditation was of non-referential compassion. Non-referential means beyond any sort of subject/object dichotomy and any sort of intervening process. If there was any effort, it would be very unlikely that they could do their meditation for long without being exhausted. Yet they can meditate like this for many, many hours (7-12 in the most recent research) and come out totally refreshed. Which parts of hte brain were activated, however... The centers generally associated with compassion and feelings of oneness IIRC. What it does correlate well with is the EEG's of Hindu meditators in samadhi. And likely with Bhddhist meditators doing other meditation techniques besides the one illustrated. Probably not. I would call it 'classic introverted style samadhi'. But I do understand, in my own experience, that there are styles of samadhi where all the senses are 'just as they are'. Eyes wide open. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked out my crazy at night. Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. I believe you meant witnessing deep sleep. One can witness in any state of consciousness. In fact when I was taught the technique for witnessing, one is taught how to shift between the various states. Deliberately shifting states is deliberately doing something, which is NOT witenssing, by definition... It's merely a shift in attention. Nothing more, nothing
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:09 PM, sparaig wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). Actually that EEG is a waking state EEG--that's what alpha is! Well sorta. As you know alpha, beta and gamma are all waking states, with alpha the resting, day dreamy, non-processing state. snip Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. I believe you meant witnessing deep sleep. One can witness in any state of consciousness. In fact when I was taught the technique for witnessing, one is taught how to shift between the various states. I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? Lawson? My take on witnessing is generally the same as Curtis's. Which is what is the most appropriate state for the given moment is the desired state. As far as dissociation, there really is a whole bunch of states that fall in that category, including the dreamy space out, to stepping back and visualizing yourself apart from yourself (splitting). Ruth, you're not paying attention. Samadhi during TM is characterized by increased alpha. It is also correlated, according to some preliminary research, with descreased thalimic cortical feedback activity. This explains the turiya description of being dsitinct from all other forms of consciousness yet at the basis of all of them: waking: high external sensory activity; high internal feedback loops; high cortical activity. dreaming: low external sensory activity; high internal feedback loops; high cortical activity. deep sleep: low external sensory activity; low internal feedback loops; low coritical activity. turiya (samadhi): low external sensory activity; low internal feedback loops; high cortical activity. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep (18)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4 The above video show Richard Wilber controlling ALL or ANY of his brainwaves -easily and AT WILL It made me think twice about the importance this thread is giving to physiological parameters as deep indicators of spirituality. Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 26, 2008, at 3:25 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:09 PM, sparaig wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). Actually that EEG is a waking state EEG--that's what alpha is! Alpha is a resting state activity and yes, its normally associated with waking state AND dreaming state. However, with witnessing sleep, you see alpha synchrony as well. If you believe what you're told. When HH Swami Rama witnessed deep sleep--and gave concrete evidence of being able to remain witness of his senses--he was in clear delta, not alpha silly. I guess that made this the macho yogic thing to do when you're sleeping, huh? I automatically find myself wondering if he also the mastered the-sucking-up-fluids-with-your-penis siddhi! It's my understanding that when MIU researchers (as announced in the Brain-Mind Bulletin) tried the same experiment (being able to use the fact that people in true witnessing can remain alert of their surroundings while still in delta) they failed. Not so surprisingly, I can't find any mention of the research announced in the Brain Mind Bulletin anymore. What's that about? The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Actually what high amplitude gamma coherence likely represents in these meditators is profoundly coherent networks of neurons connecting large parts of the cortex. It's very unlikely that in this case it has to do with intellect since the style of meditation was of non-referential compassion. Non-referential means beyond any sort of subject/object dichotomy and any sort of intervening process. If there was any effort, it would be very unlikely that they could do their meditation for long without being exhausted. Yet they can meditate like this for many, many hours (7-12 in the most recent research) and come out totally refreshed. Which parts of hte brain were activated, however... The centers generally associated with compassion and feelings of oneness IIRC. What it does correlate well with is the EEG's of Hindu meditators in samadhi. And likely with Bhddhist meditators doing other meditation techniques besides the one illustrated. Probably not. I would call it 'classic introverted style samadhi'. But I do understand, in my own experience, that there are styles of samadhi where all the senses are 'just as they are'. Eyes wide open. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. I agree that it likely was dissociation, but it certainly was an effective way of dealing with an accident and it ended as soon as the accident ended, with me able to remember every detail. Moments of dissociation are highly adaptive. I agree that the Alpha pattern is associated with rest, with brain idling. But I when I think about the intellect dominating, I generally think beta activity, using your intellect to process information and problem solve. Gamma is associated with concentration. When you apay attention to an object of attention, alpha gets blocked. Or, in MMY's terms, self-referral consciousness gets lost in object-referral consciousness. Well Gamma is associated with a lot more than concentration. Simple problem solving will yield beta. Heightened awareness will yield Gamma. Is that concentration? Can be. But concentration implies effort and that does not have to be at all the case. Fear and heightened states of arousal can correlate with beta and gamma activity. Also, heightened states of consciousness or awareness can correlate with gamma activity. So I can see that dissociation occurring during a car accident or when you face an emergency and need to act without panic, could be correlated with gamma activity. Do you have a cite which relates gamma activity to dissociation? I have a site that correlates increased assymetry in hemisopheric functioning with dissociation... Just look for dissociative states and EEG on entrez-vous. Problem is dissociation means too many things. I would appreciate a link to the site. Otherwise I will poke around. Dissociative states where people space out and forget what they did probably correlates with increased alpha activity and not gamma activity all at. Two different kinds of dissociation, yes? Alpha would not be dissociation because it is RESTING. Disociation implies watching something *going on*. with Pure Concciousness, there is nothing going on. When alpha is blocked, somethign starts to go on. You miss what I am saying. There is more than one kind of dissociation. One kind of dissociative state is where people space out and forget what happened for a period of time. As near as I can determine this does in fact can correlate with increased alpha activity. The kind of dissociation where you split and watch what is going on is totally different and I agree could involve gamma activity. I would not say, though, that nothing is going on with alpha. In fact, I think something is always going on. ;) If nothing else, you are running the systems. Alpha isn't some magical state. I am not sure I buy that pure consciousness is somehow associated with alpha. I have to do a lot more reading and I sure have not read much in the past 20 years on these issues. You seem to have a lot of interesting resources. I am not really looking to argue, I just want to know what you are basing your opinions on so I can make my own evaluation. However, I disagree that gamma activity is simply a matter of the intellect dominating. Like some TM'ers argue that alpha
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ruth, you're not paying attention. Samadhi during TM is characterized by increased alpha. It is also correlated, according to some preliminary research, with descreased thalimic cortical feedback activity. Ok, now I am convinced that I don't understand what you mean by witnessing vs. Samadhi. Are you in fact using the terms interchangeably? I would not think that they mean the same. But as I mentioned in another thread, I am not overly familiar with the language of mysticism. I just started poking around on the issue of cortical and thalimic activity, which appear may be effected by any number of different types of meditation. This explains the turiya description of being dsitinct from all other forms of consciousness yet at the basis of all of them: waking: high external sensory activity; high internal feedback loops; high cortical activity. dreaming: low external sensory activity; high internal feedback loops; high cortical activity. deep sleep: low external sensory activity; low internal feedback loops; low coritical activity. turiya (samadhi): low external sensory activity; low internal feedback loops; high cortical activity. Lawson Any cites you can give me to support this thesis I would appreciate. And yes, I am paying attention. But we have so many threads going at once and thus I am sure I will end up out of posts shortly!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 26, 2008, at 5:22 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: However, I disagree that gamma activity is simply a matter of the intellect dominating. Like some TM'ers argue that alpha activity is of major significance (not just a matter of rest) , some buddists would argue gamma activity is of major significance (not just a matter of perception). Again, look at that url. The alpha synchrony there is 100% across a dozen or so leads. !00 percent, as in, you can (as Fred Travis did in that illustration) draw a vertical line with a ruler down the peaks of all leads... Yes, I do not disagree on the alpha coherence. The issue is what does it mean? And what does the gamma activity mean? The dominant frequency in the scalp EEG of human adults is the alpha rhythm. It is manifest by a ‘peak’ in spectral analysis around 10 Hz and reflects rhythmic ‘alpha waves’ (Klimesch, 1999; Nunez et al., 2001). Alpha oscillations are found primarily over occipital-parietal channels particularly when the eyes are closed, yet alpha activity can be recorded from nearly the entire upper cortical surface. During wakefulness, it is a basic EEG phenomenon that the alpha peak reflects a tonic large-scale synchronization of a very large population of neurons. This low-frequency global neural activity is thought to be elicited by reciprocal interactions between the cortex, the reticular nucleus and the thalamocortical (Delmonte, 1985) cells in other thalamic nuclei (Klimesch, 1999; Nunez et al., 2001; Slotnick, Moo, Kraut, Lesser, Hart, 2002) even if cortico-cortical mechanisms also play a possible role (Lopes da Silva, Vos, Mooibroek, Van Rotterdam, 1980). Because an overall decrease in alpha power has been related to increasing demands of attention, alertness, and task load, alpha activity is classically viewed as an “idling rhythm” reflecting a relaxed, unoccupied brain (Klimesch, 1999). Large-scale alpha synchronization blocks information processing because very large populations of neurons oscillate with the same phase and frequency; thus, it is a state of high integration but low differentiation. Within a bandwidth of perhaps 2Hz near thisspectral peak, alpha frequencies frequently produce spontaneously moderate to large coherence (0.3-0.8 over large inter-electrode distance (Nunez et al., 1997)). The alpha coherence values reported in TM studies, as a trait in the baseline or during meditation, belong to this same range. Thus a global increase of alpha power and alpha coherence might not reflect a more “ordered” or “integrated” experience, as frequently claimed in TM literature, but rather a relaxed, inactive mental state (Fenwick, 1987). (...) Similarly, the initial claim that TM produces a unique state of consciousness different than sleep has been refuted by several EEG meditation studies which reported sleep-like stages during this technique with increased alpha and then theta power (Pagano, Rose, Stivers, Warrenburg, 1976; Younger, Adriance, Berger, 1975). To summarize, alpha global increases and alpha coherence mostly over frontal electrodes are associated with TM practice when meditating compared to baseline (Morse, Martin, Furst, Dubin, 1977). This global alpha increase is similar to other relaxation techniques. The passive absorption during the recitation of the mantra, as practiced in this technique, produces a brain pattern that suggests a decrease of processing of sensory or motor information and of mental activity in general. Because alpha rhythms are ubiquitous and functionally non-specific, the claim that alpha oscillations and alpha coherence are desirable or are linked to an original and higher state of consciousness seem quite premature. --Meditation and the Neuroscience of Consciousness Antoine Lutz, John D. Dunne, Richard J. Davidson Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness edited by Zelazo P., Moscovitch M. and Thompson E. [emphases mine]
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alpha is a resting state activity and yes, its normally associated with waking state AND dreaming state. However, with witnessing sleep, you see alpha synchrony as well. I believe this is the case with lucid dreaming. I cannot conclude from what you are saying that witnessing sleep is a state separate from lucid dreaming.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep (18)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4 The above video show Richard Wilber controlling ALL or ANY of his brainwaves -easily and AT WILL It made me think twice about the importance this thread is giving to physiological parameters as deep indicators of spirituality. Edg Good point! We haven't even touched biofeedback which can be used to some extent to control brain waves. I am interested in the conversation partly to understand what different people believe may be markers for different states of consciousness. Which is something I know next to nothing about.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep (18)
On Feb 26, 2008, at 6:24 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4 The above video show Richard Wilber controlling ALL or ANY of his brainwaves -easily and AT WILL It made me think twice about the importance this thread is giving to physiological parameters as deep indicators of spirituality. Edg Good point! We haven't even touched biofeedback which can be used to some extent to control brain waves. I am interested in the conversation partly to understand what different people believe may be markers for different states of consciousness. Which is something I know next to nothing about. Well let's do some perspective and reframing here: this is Ken Wilber, not Wilbur the architect or Ed his horse or Richard Wilber. I may not be the biggest Ken Wilber fan but I do know this guys been putting his ass on the cushion (of meditation) for 3 or 4 decades. If he has had access to some good, authentic teachings, there's absolutely no reason to hypothesize that Wilber-the-meditator's machine might actually be recording the results of his own exploration. I've done the same with some new techs learning lead placement on a 24 channel EEG. The so-called witnessing profile is easy to duplicate. I bet a lotta people right here have already known how to do it for years. Don't underestimate what you might already gnow!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep (18)
On Feb 26, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Vaj wrote: no reason to hypothesize no reason to not hypothesize that is. Dear Editor where are you when we need you?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: [...] Alpha would not be dissociation because it is RESTING. Disociation implies watching something *going on*. with Pure Concciousness, there is nothing going on. When alpha is blocked, somethign starts to go on. You miss what I am saying. There is more than one kind of dissociation. No doubt. One kind of dissociative state is where people space out and forget what happened for a period of time. As near as I can determine this does in fact can correlate with increased alpha activity. Well, insomuch as alpha means the brain isn't processing outside data, I would agree that thsi sis the case. However, witnessing as a noticeable state is something possibly different then merely showing alpha, which is associated with non-information processing. At teh most philosophical level, perhaps not, but in terms of what is a reportable state of witnessing, there's likely more requirements then simply alpha. The kind of dissociation where you split and watch what is going on is totally different and I agree could involve gamma activity. I would not say, though, that nothing is going on with alpha. In fact, I think something is always going on. ;) If nothing else, you are running the systems. Alpha isn't some magical state. I am not sure I buy that pure consciousness is somehow associated with alpha. Well, its highly correlated with self-reports of witnessing during meditation, and witnessing during sleep, dreaming waking activity I have to do a lot more reading and I sure have not read much in the past 20 years on these issues. You seem to have a lot of interesting resources. I am not really looking to argue, I just want to know what you are basing your opinions on so I can make my own evaluation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez search: travis meditation Alpha synchrony + regular sleep EEG I believe. 35 years reading this stuff and talking to researchers about it. Thanks! So do you have a study? When will the alpha synchrony occur? What are the reported signs by the subjects if any? I assume that they generally report witnessing? Do they report any specific experiences during sleep?I have a break of 20 years in reading this stuff, but I am educated well enough to understand what I am reading and to evaluate the research.I also participated as a student in early meditation and biofeedback research, not sponsored by the TMO. My bad. No significant differences for alpha coherence during sleep. http://www.fredtravis.com/Sleepwit.html Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Alpha is a resting state activity and yes, its normally associated with waking state AND dreaming state. However, with witnessing sleep, you see alpha synchrony as well. I believe this is the case with lucid dreaming. I cannot conclude from what you are saying that witnessing sleep is a state separate from lucid dreaming. WEll, I'm wrong about alpha coherence being anindicator of witnessing sleep. However... Forwhatever its worth, you could contact this person for their take on the lucidity- witnessing dichotomy: http://www.spiritwatch.ca/from.htm Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
snip Answer to Rick's post: Me: I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Rick: Our difference is that you regard these states as relative perspectives, whereas I regard them as openings to universal realities. That makes sense, since you doubt the existence of subtler realities. Me: I had to give this some thought. Although I am not sure about the terms universal, or subtler realties, I do recognize the limits of our senses and cognitive abilities to appreciate the full range of possible reality. We are guaranteed to be only catching a slice of life. Both objective reality and the capabilities of our minds are filled with mystery and untapped potential. What I am skeptical about is that ancient cultures have already figured all this out given their religious biases. I believe we need to add the insights from the ancient texts into the pot of modern thought and not take any of them as automatically authoritative. It is a given for me that ancient cultures were as full of nonsense as wisdom and that we might be in a better position to sort the two out today. Rick: You also imply in your last sentence above that higher states make one emotionally numb. I think there is evidence for that in the TMO, but there is also evidence throughout the larger spiritual community that greater emotional richness accompanies development of consciousness. I don't know much about tantra, but I gather that tantrics regard the ability to maintain inner silence as a great aid to love making. Me: I believe that any sex involves altered states and great sex is full of trance enhancement. But I believe that too much buzz of any kind becomes an end in itself rather than an enhancement to the communication of sex and full engagement with it emotionally and physically. I am completely against (for me) any tradition that is anti male orgasm. (approaching the ick zone, moving on...) snip Me:Where I differ with traditional yogic theory is that they seem to feel that you can't have too much silence along with activity. I think you can depending on what you are doing. Rick: I agree with you, but I think that too much would only be a temporary state, due to inadequate integration. Also, the people I know who seem to be speaking from experience say that the whole witnessing/silence thing is a stage, and that silence is eventually perceived to be full of dynamism. I'm a little out of my league discussing this, Me: I believe that your experiences are on a par with any of the people claiming full awakening. The difference I suspect is that some people have a more imaginative and flamboyant and frankly less rigorously honest self perception. They feel comfortable describing themselves in ways that you do not. But by now, I seriously doubt they are experiencing anything you are not also. With the exception of those people whose mental make up is inherently unstable and prone to wild states of departures from reality. We both know some people who are just out there, for real for real. Since so far I have not seen anyone do anything that indicates they have magical abilities it all comes down to self reported reality and self perception. And even on courses I never felt like the people with the best experiences were the most stable people. Rick: but the point I'm trying to make is that there may be some undesirable aspects to certain stages in the development of consciousness, but these stages are transitional, and as one moves on, the undesirable aspects drop off and one is grateful to have persisted in the journey. Me: Here we would have to have a lot of faith in cultures that produced this system of belief. I don't see anything in the records of how their societies ran that make me believe they were that special. In fact they seem somewhat barbaric in specific ways that our present culture has attempted to balance. I am a fan of enhanced states of consciousness. I have a healthy respect for meditation techniques to accomplish them. I just think we need to take a collective deep breath about all the assumptions that have come along with the religious value laden spiritual traditions. We have learned some stuff about how our mind's work since ancient times and I would like to see the knowledge fields less insulated from each other. Until we know more about the possible states of mind that we can experience, it seem premature to have the kind of confidence I see in many spiritual traditions about the content generated by those experiences. I believe that we are both approaching a level of honesty and integrity about what we can be confident with concerning our world view as best we can. That's why I'm here brother. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version:
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:17 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington snip Answer to Rick's post: Me: I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Rick: Our difference is that you regard these states as relative perspectives, whereas I regard them as openings to universal realities. That makes sense, since you doubt the existence of subtler realities. Me: I had to give this some thought. Although I am not sure about the terms universal, or subtler realties, I do recognize the limits of our senses and cognitive abilities to appreciate the full range of possible reality. We are guaranteed to be only catching a slice of life. Both objective reality and the capabilities of our minds are filled with mystery and untapped potential. What I am skeptical about is that ancient cultures have already figured all this out given their religious biases. I believe we need to add the insights from the ancient texts into the pot of modern thought and not take any of them as automatically authoritative. It is a given for me that ancient cultures were as full of nonsense as wisdom and that we might be in a better position to sort the two out today. I agree with most everything you wrote. And the above paragraph encapsulates it. Andrew Cohen talks a lot about breaking fresh ground – respecting the ancient cultures but not regarding them as utopias to which we must return… taking the best they have to offer and blending it with modern understandings. Sorry I can’t come up with an adequate response just now. I’m getting sleepy and have been up since before 5 this morning. Gotta turn it. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 2/26/2008 7:50 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. While I'd like to make that same assumption, I find that if I'm honest with myself, I cannot. It may feel that way at the time, but the bottom line is that witnessing is Just Another Subjective Experience. We have all been carefully taught how to interpret those subjective experience, in the TMO and/or in other spiritual traditions. But there is no surety that their interpretation is the correct one IMO. Thus I will continue to value the witnessing experiences I have had and favor the non-dissociative interpretation of them, but I don't completely rule out the alternative. It doesn't diminish ones functionality, but enhances it. Tell that to the people in Fiuggi who had to be placed under a special watch when they started witnessing 24/7. They tended to embarrass themselves and the TMO in public, and we all know that isn't allowed. Again, while I will admit that what you say above seems to be true for the vast majority of people who exper- ience witnessing as a result of meditative practices, I have encountered enough exceptions to know that it isn't a hard-and-fast rule. I'm just finding myself more like Curtis these days, open to *many* different interpretations of experiences that I once saw only one interpretation of -- the one I had been taught to consider the only interpretation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least just imperturbable. I'm glad you weighed in Rick. I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Neuro-linquistic programming (NLP) looks at these different states in relationship to the usefulness in a specific context. Their goal is to be able to shift fluidly between the options. I think they are related to the states produced by meditation. Where I differ with traditional yogic theory is that they seem to feel that you can't have too much silence along with activity. I think you can depending on what you are doing. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lurkernomore20002000 Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:38 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington On Feb 24, 2008, at 6:30 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: This is where I disagree with Maharishi's traditional interpretation of the value of this experience. I think he takes these useful states too far. For example witnessing sleep in a nap seems very restful and efficient. Witnessing sleep at night doesn't seem as restful. Witnessing in activity is not my preferred state to interact with the world. It isn't even my preferred style of functioning with my own mind and emotions. This is a fundamental difference of opinion I have with Maharishi concerning its value for a person's life. It comes at a cost. You kind of have to buy into his whole perspective on life to think of it as a step of higher consciousness, which is a step I am not taking. Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. It doesn't diminish ones functionality, but enhances it. For instance, recently I had to break up a serious dog fight. I was walking an unneutered chow/husky mix off a leash and he ran ahead and began sniffing around an unneutered, leashed German Shepherd. Soon they were fighting. I had to run 50 yards, then reach in and grab the chow with teeth flashing everywhere, blood flowing, and the Shepherd's owner swearing at the top of his lungs. The same silence that always underlies my activities was even more evident, by contrast, and enabled me to react swiftly and decisively and keep my head while the other dog owner (and my wife) were losing theirs. It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least just imperturbable. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.0/1296 - Release Date: 2/24/2008 12:19 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. While I'd like to make that same assumption, I find that if I'm honest with myself, I cannot. It may feel that way at the time, but the bottom line is that witnessing is Just Another Subjective Experience. We have all been carefully taught how to interpret those subjective experience, in the TMO and/or in other spiritual traditions. But there is no surety that their interpretation is the correct one IMO. There's a distinct patter of EEG for witnessing ala TM. Its associated with non-sensory- related brain activity --an idling state, as it were. By non-sensory I mean activity that isn't driven/influenced by input from the thalamus. Its just ongoing optimization activity, or so I suspect since any time neurons are alive, they're attempting to optimize their connections with their neighbors--thats why isolated neurons in petri dishes look like amoebae: they're desperately seeking input to optimize. At the most fundamental level, thats all neurons EVER do (besides eat and excrete) but the independent optimization process gets overwhelmed at times by reactions to inputs from sensory centers. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. It doesn't diminish ones functionality, but enhances it. For instance, recently I had to break up a serious dog fight. I was walking an unneutered chow/husky mix off a leash and he ran ahead and began sniffing around an unneutered, leashed German Shepherd. Soon they were fighting. I had to run 50 yards, then reach in and grab the chow with teeth flashing everywhere, blood flowing, and the Shepherd's owner swearing at the top of his lungs. The same silence that always underlies my activities was even more evident, by contrast, and enabled me to react swiftly and decisively and keep my head while the other dog owner (and my wife) were losing theirs. It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least � just imperturbable. I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked out my crazy at night. Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. Hi Rick, Thanks for the reminder of the virtue of witnessing as a non-dissassociative state. However as I have taken part in these newsgroups it is evident that long time meditators do experience dissassociative sleep. I began TM in part because of trouble getting to sleep at night. This problem ended shortly after starting the practice. However some 20 years later I find myself awakening late at night in my sleep, sometimes in dream state other times in blackness. In general this leads to me becoming fully awake and not getting sleep I need. Its a pain in the ass. I consider this dysfunctional sleep. When I consulted a sleep specialist this sort of late night insomnia is not common in the general population. I am not sure I can fully correlate it with TM but I have noticed TMers report this experience often. While I'd like to make that same assumption, I find that if I'm honest with myself, I cannot. It may feel that way at the time, but the bottom line is that witnessing is Just Another Subjective Experience. We have all been carefully taught how to interpret those subjective experience, in the TMO and/or in other spiritual traditions. But there is no surety that their interpretation is the correct one IMO. (snip for space) I'm just finding myself more like Curtis these days, open to *many* different interpretations of experiences that I once saw only one interpretation of -- the one I had been taught to consider the only interpretation. Unfortunately we necessarily are in the realm of many different interpretations. With empirical observations, say for example the earth is round. We can set up experiments, see if they are repeatable, report them to society and weight the evidence. Enough weight and we can promote this crazy observation to an accepted theory. With inner work we are condemned to use the same form of measurement as to what is actual. So, I notice how in a high stress situation time slows down and I can bring my awareness out of the situation to act quickly (I am thinking of traffic situations and crazy work deadlines). To test this experience I may talk to the non-meditators around me and note they are caught up in these experiences and panic. I go to my yoga friends and might find common ground. I might even read Patajali and find he reports a similar sort of experience. This is where the trouble lies. In order to understand exterior experience we rely on language - there is a tendency these days to give math great credibility. Thus, the world is round because the math worked that way, and we could support that with real word experience like not falling off the world in ships. However in the world of the inner search we are only left with myths. We can subscribe cause to unseen supreme consciousness, or silence, or what Kant called noomenology. And we can only test these myths against other's experiences. If a group of people accept a common myth they achieve a cult status. If its a larger group they can be deemed a religion. Alas the alternative is solipsism. Which is lonely and has its drawbacks. I guess what I am saying here, is that we have to reach out. Prolly best to respect other's opinions even though their myths sometimes are clearly sick. (Though we do have an obligation to point out the sickness) Because no matter how independent you think you are on this path, others are going to be needed to compare notes. And necessarily that is going to be the source of myth. And our job is going to be deciphering which myths are better than the others. s. Really skeptical but friendly.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: Witnessing is not a dissassociative state in which different aspects of the personality are fragmented from one another. It's a natural experience that arises when the silent aspect of life is open to awareness along with the active aspects. While I'd like to make that same assumption, I find that if I'm honest with myself, I cannot. It may feel that way at the time, but the bottom line is that witnessing is Just Another Subjective Experience. We have all been carefully taught how to interpret those subjective experience, in the TMO and/or in other spiritual traditions. But there is no surety that their interpretation is the correct one IMO. There's a distinct patter of EEG for witnessing ala TM. Its associated with non-sensory- related brain activity --an idling state, as it were. By non-sensory I mean activity that isn't driven/influenced by input from the thalamus. Its just ongoing optimization activity, or so I suspect since any time neurons are alive, they're attempting to optimize their connections with their neighbors--thats why isolated neurons in petri dishes look like amoebae: they're desperately seeking input to optimize. At the most fundamental level, thats all neurons EVER do (besides eat and excrete) but the independent optimization process gets overwhelmed at times by reactions to inputs from sensory centers. Lawson How distinct is this really? Arguably, spending too much time in alpha leads to the brain desperately seeking imput. So, get up, get going, and do something.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:09 PM, sparaig wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). Actually that EEG is a waking state EEG--that's what alpha is! The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Actually what high amplitude gamma coherence likely represents in these meditators is profoundly coherent networks of neurons connecting large parts of the cortex. It's very unlikely that in this case it has to do with intellect since the style of meditation was of non-referential compassion. Non-referential means beyond any sort of subject/object dichotomy and any sort of intervening process. If there was any effort, it would be very unlikely that they could do their meditation for long without being exhausted. Yet they can meditate like this for many, many hours (7-12 in the most recent research) and come out totally refreshed. What it does correlate well with is the EEG's of Hindu meditators in samadhi. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked out my crazy at night. Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. I believe you meant witnessing deep sleep. One can witness in any state of consciousness. In fact when I was taught the technique for witnessing, one is taught how to shift between the various states.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). The classic EEG pattern where the intellect is dominating would be where the gamma frequencies are highly active in that part of the brain. Sorta like what is found in the EEG of long-term practitioners of the Buddhist meditation found on the left side of the above URL. Whether or not these two distinctly different meditative states are equivalent at some deeper level is unknown at this time. I agree that it likely was dissociation, but it certainly was an effective way of dealing with an accident and it ended as soon as the accident ended, with me able to remember every detail. Moments of dissociation are highly adaptive. I agree that the Alpha pattern is associated with rest, with brain idling. But I when I think about the intellect dominating, I generally think beta activity, using your intellect to process information and problem solve. Fear and heightened states of arousal can correlate with beta and gamma activity. Also, heightened states of consciousness or awareness can correlate with gamma activity. So I can see that dissociation occurring during a car accident or when you face an emergency and need to act without panic, could be correlated with gamma activity. Do you have a cite which relates gamma activity to dissociation? Dissociative states where people space out and forget what they did probably correlates with increased alpha activity and not gamma activity all at. Two different kinds of dissociation, yes? However, I disagree that gamma activity is simply a matter of the intellect dominating. Like some TM'ers argue that alpha activity is of major significance (not just a matter of rest) , some buddists would argue gamma activity is of major significance (not just a matter of perception). The comments about witnessing during sleep are interesting. I am somewhat capable of directing my dreams, but not always. Other times I am able to view my dreams more as a watcher than participant, though I am a participant as well. Like reading a novel about yourself. This does remove some of the dream intensity but sometimes I want the intensity. Witnessing in sleep/dreamland does not seem like an end goal, but an option. I am a very vivid dreamer and always have been. My theory once was that crazy dreams kept me sane and stable, I worked out my crazy at night. Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. Lawson So then, what would be the signs of witnessing sleep? May I also ask what is your background?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 1:09 PM, sparaig wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. On the other hand, sometimes people panic. Not to pass judgement on what happened during your car crash, but there is a distinct brainwave pattern seen during witnessing/samadhi during TM and reports of long-term TMers of witnessing waking/dreaming/sleeping are highly correlated with this pattern. An extereme example of it is found in the right-side diagram of this URL: http://web.mac.com/lawsonenglish/Site/Meditation_EEG.html This EEG pattern is associated with relaxed/restful awareness. It is POSSIBLE that you happened to go into that state during a car crash, but more likely you had a dissociative state, which has been correlated with asymmetric functioning of the brain where the intellect is dominating or where the emotional side is dysfunctional (or both, I guess). Actually that EEG is a waking state EEG--that's what alpha is! Well sorta. As you know alpha, beta and gamma are all waking states, with alpha the resting, day dreamy, non-processing state. snip Witnessing sleep is NOT the same as lucid sleep. One need not be aware that one is asleep/dreaming to have witnessing sleep. I believe you meant witnessing deep sleep. One can witness in any state of consciousness. In fact when I was taught the technique for witnessing, one is taught how to shift between the various states. I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? Lawson? My take on witnessing is generally the same as Curtis's. Which is what is the most appropriate state for the given moment is the desired state. As far as dissociation, there really is a whole bunch of states that fall in that category, including the dreamy space out, to stepping back and visualizing yourself apart from yourself (splitting).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm just finding myself more like Curtis these days, open to *many* different interpretations of experiences that I once saw only one interpretation of -- the one I had been taught to consider the only interpretation. I've also been finding myself open to many possible interpretations of things, and it somehow seems possible to entertain more than one possibility, with each possibility contributing something of value to my understanding.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam and gently fall asleep as I was taught. Not nearly as bright and supports deep sleep easier. Once I get some rejuvenation, then I can raise it to the head centers again and you can integrate the motion aspect (of thought energy). The heart center tends to habituate for the calm state and deep sleep, the head centers for movement of thought.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam and gently fall asleep as I was taught. Not nearly as bright and supports deep sleep easier. Once I get some rejuvenation, then I can raise it to the head centers again and you can integrate the motion aspect (of thought energy). The heart center tends to habituate for the calm state and deep sleep, the head centers for movement of thought. I can't grok this. Can you recommend a reading?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam That's interesting. According to Bhoja-deva: hRdayaM shariirasya pradesha-visheSas tasminn adho-mukha-svalpa- puNDariikaabhyantare 'ntaHkaraNa-sattvasya sthaanaM tatra kRta-saMyamasya **sva[!]-para-citta-jñaanam** utpadyate | sva-citta- gataaH **sarvaa vaasanaaH**, para-citta-gataaMsh ca raagaadiiñ jaanaatiityarthaH |
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had a similar experience during a car accident many years ago. Time slowed, no panic, and I could watch dispassionately. Not to minimize our experiences, but I would think this is somewhat common in highly stressful situations. I believe so. A couple years ago on an icy patch, I skidded off the road, rolled the car down an embackment three times, and witnessed the whold thing. I think this is the common experience of most people. An unexected experience, in which you have no control. What else can you do. My wife had a similiar experience with a car accident, and she is not of the meditator fold, or mindset.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj, I have a question about an experience I have at times during sleep (or is it during waking?). I'm curious how you would interpret it. Usually it happens after I've awakened during the night and don't fall back to sleep. At first, I'm usually wishing I'd go back to sleep (my nice unconscious sleep - as wonderful as all these other alternatives may be, I love that unconsciousness). I may even been mulling over something or feel somewhat agitated, but then I'll drop into a different state. It's very pleasant. It's like a deep meditative state, but different. It's smooth and creamy. On the dark screen of awareness, I'll see shifting patterns of light and form. It's very enjoyable and may continue for some time. With these discussions about sleep experiences, I am now curious about it... Oh yes, I'm never sure if I'm asleep or awake. It feels totally awake, although without engagement in the kind of thinking and focus of attention that occurs during normal waking state. Thoughts don't form all the way, but there's something very clearly aware that all this is going on and I may be asleep or awake. It's a question in a sense, but doesn't form as a waking state question. The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam and gently fall asleep as I was taught. Not nearly as bright and supports deep sleep easier. Once I get some rejuvenation, then I can raise it to the head centers again and you can integrate the motion aspect (of thought energy). The heart center tends to habituate for the calm state and deep sleep, the head centers for movement of thought.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 25, 2008, at 7:46 PM, abutilon108 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj, I have a question about an experience I have at times during sleep (or is it during waking?). I'm curious how you would interpret it. Usually it happens after I've awakened during the night and don't fall back to sleep. At first, I'm usually wishing I'd go back to sleep (my nice unconscious sleep - as wonderful as all these other alternatives may be, I love that unconsciousness). I may even been mulling over something or feel somewhat agitated, but then I'll drop into a different state. It's very pleasant. It's like a deep meditative state, but different. It's smooth and creamy. On the dark screen of awareness, I'll see shifting patterns of light and form. It's very enjoyable and may continue for some time. With these discussions about sleep experiences, I am now curious about it... Oh yes, I'm never sure if I'm asleep or awake. It feels totally awake, although without engagement in the kind of thinking and focus of attention that occurs during normal waking state. Thoughts don't form all the way, but there's something very clearly aware that all this is going on and I may be asleep or awake. It's a question in a sense, but doesn't form as a waking state question. Not sure really. Sorry.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 25, 2008, at 6:51 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam and gently fall asleep as I was taught. Not nearly as bright and supports deep sleep easier. Once I get some rejuvenation, then I can raise it to the head centers again and you can integrate the motion aspect (of thought energy). The heart center tends to habituate for the calm state and deep sleep, the head centers for movement of thought. I can't grok this. Can you recommend a reading? If you dig a more Hindu trip, try Enlightenment Without God by Swami Rama. If a more Buddhist slant hits you, I liked The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Swami Rama's Yoga and Psychotherapy: The Evolution of Consciousness explains a lot of what I'm touching on from a Hindu POV. But be open to the possibility that maybe of receiving some teaching on it and driving it for yourself might be the only way to grok it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
This thread has really brought up some interesting points. Turq's point about lucid dreaming and Vaj's description of different varieties of sleep witnessing were especially fascinating for me. I think it is time to clear the whole thing up from the perspective of an enlightened master. And you'll notice that the Yogananda people use the same video expert as TMO. BTW you have all been sleeping wrong so far so listen up: http://youtube.com/watch?v=feh3wPk3oCofeature=related --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 6:51 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: I still want someone to tell me what they believe are the signs of witnessing sleep. Whatever the stage of the sleep. Vaj? The witnessing of waking, sleeping and dreaming parallel the meditative states of the calm state (no thought, dreamless witnessing), movement of thought (dream state fabricating itself from thought forms) and collapse of dream/dreamless back to waking (or the death of waking into sleep). There are sandhis or gaps in the transitions between these and very similar or the same as dying. The witnessing in deep sleep is like awareness witnessing a void, although that dualistic witnessing can be further relaxed and it unifies into a kind of 'luminous vacuity' where you simply rest, awake, aware. If you can relax even further, you can see thoughts begin to shatter the surface of the calm and dreams emerge into existence. If you relax enough the state of luminous vacuity or clear light, the state of unification pervades all the states and you watch thoughts emerge, come and then go. Dreams become very under control--if you want to meditate for hours, you can--and only a couple of minutes will pass in waking time. Some people will use it to gain tomes of knowledge or simply to get answers to pressing questions or situations. If you are able to relax enough to actually go through the death of falling asleep and embrace the spheres of dreaming and deep sleep by expanding beyond them, you remain aware, seamlessly enjoying the whole cycle. The added advantage is resting in the bliss sheath of deep sleep is somehow miraculously healing and rejuvenating. You awake as if cleaned from the inside out, clean and clear. And the interesting thing? You know that grogginess of emerging from a nights sleep? Not only is it totally gone, there's no gap or seam at all between sleeping and arising. Some styles of witness, those associated with the head chakras can be too bright for some people. If they fall into this type of witness, it can develop into a sleep disturbance as it doesn't keep you wide awake, but it doesn't let you fall into real deep sleep either. In a case like that, I just place awareness in the hridayam and gently fall asleep as I was taught. Not nearly as bright and supports deep sleep easier. Once I get some rejuvenation, then I can raise it to the head centers again and you can integrate the motion aspect (of thought energy). The heart center tends to habituate for the calm state and deep sleep, the head centers for movement of thought. I can't grok this. Can you recommend a reading? If you dig a more Hindu trip, try Enlightenment Without God by Swami Rama. If a more Buddhist slant hits you, I liked The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Swami Rama's Yoga and Psychotherapy: The Evolution of Consciousness explains a lot of what I'm touching on from a Hindu POV. But be open to the possibility that maybe of receiving some teaching on it and driving it for yourself might be the only way to grok it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This thread has really brought up some interesting points. Turq's point about lucid dreaming and Vaj's description of different varieties of sleep witnessing were especially fascinating for me. I think it is time to clear the whole thing up from the perspective of an enlightened master. And you'll notice that the Yogananda people use the same video expert as TMO. BTW you have all been sleeping wrong so far so listen up: http://youtube.com/watch?v=feh3wPk3oCofeature=related Lay on your back! Don't worry! Go to sleep! You muthafuckin westerners! Well that was a little frightening. I have never heard Yagananda in real life before. Something of a downer. Kind of up there with my pundits are better than your pundits.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This thread has really brought up some interesting points. Turq's point about lucid dreaming and Vaj's description of different varieties of sleep witnessing were especially fascinating for me. I think it is time to clear the whole thing up from the perspective of an enlightened master. And you'll notice that the Yogananda people use the same video expert as TMO. BTW you have all been sleeping wrong so far so listen up: http://youtube.com/watch?v=feh3wPk3oCofeature=related Way cool. Great find. Who would have thought that Yogananda would have a vibe like Bela Lugosi, eh?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
On Feb 25, 2008, at 9:20 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: Way cool. Great find. Who would have thought that Yogananda would have a vibe like Bela Lugosi, eh? ROFLOL. What a let down! I should've just stuck to the books! :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well that was a little frightening. I have never heard Yagananda in real life before. Something of a downer. Kind of up there with my pundits are better than your pundits. You should listen to the tape of Yogananda singing devotional songs. That made a lasting impression on me.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
Who would have thought that Yogananda would have a vibe like Bela Lugosi, eh? That's my vote for quote of the week. Thanks Turq. --- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This thread has really brought up some interesting points. Turq's point about lucid dreaming and Vaj's description of different varieties of sleep witnessing were especially fascinating for me. I think it is time to clear the whole thing up from the perspective of an enlightened master. And you'll notice that the Yogananda people use the same video expert as TMO. BTW you have all been sleeping wrong so far so listen up: http://youtube.com/watch?v=feh3wPk3oCofeature=related Way cool. Great find. Who would have thought that Yogananda would have a vibe like Bela Lugosi, eh? Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing awake and asleep
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: This thread has really brought up some interesting points. Turq's point about lucid dreaming and Vaj's description of different varieties of sleep witnessing were especially fascinating for me. I think it is time to clear the whole thing up from the perspective of an enlightened master. And you'll notice that the Yogananda people use the same video expert as TMO. BTW you have all been sleeping wrong so far so listen up: http://youtube.com/watch?v=feh3wPk3oCofeature=related Lay on your back! Don't worry! Go to sleep! You muthafuckin westerners! Well that was a little frightening. I have never heard Yagananda in real life before. Something of a downer. Kind of up there with my pundits are better than your pundits. is everybody feeling white enough yet?
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:40 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least – just imperturbable. I'm glad you weighed in Rick. Sorry I don’t have time to follow the discussion more closely. I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Our difference is that you regard these states as relative perspectives, whereas I regard them as openings to universal realities. That makes sense, since you doubt the existence of subtler realities. You also imply in your last sentence above that “higher” states make one emotionally numb. I think there is evidence for that in the TMO, but there is also evidence throughout the larger spiritual community that greater emotional richness accompanies development of consciousness. I don’t know much about tantra, but I gather that tantrics regard the ability to maintain inner silence as a great aid to love making. Neuro-linquistic programming (NLP) looks at these different states in relationship to the usefulness in a specific context. Their goal is to be able to shift fluidly between the options. I think they are related to the states produced by meditation. Where I differ with traditional yogic theory is that they seem to feel that you can't have too much silence along with activity. I think you can depending on what you are doing. I agree with you, but I think that “too much” would only be a temporary state, due to inadequate integration. Also, the people I know who seem to be speaking from experience say that the whole witnessing/silence thing is a stage, and that silence is eventually perceived to be full of dynamism. I’m a little out of my league discussing this, but the point I’m trying to make is that there may be some undesirable aspects to certain stages in the development of consciousness, but these stages are transitional, and as one moves on, the undesirable aspects drop off and one is grateful to have persisted in the journey. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008 8:45 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:40 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least just imperturbable. I'm glad you weighed in Rick. Sorry I don't have time to follow the discussion more closely. I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Our difference is that you regard these states as relative perspectives, whereas I regard them as openings to universal realities. That makes sense, since you doubt the existence of subtler realities. You also imply in your last sentence above that higher states make one emotionally numb. I think there is evidence for that in the TMO, but there is also evidence throughout the larger spiritual community that greater emotional richness accompanies development of consciousness. I don't know much about tantra, but I gather that tantrics regard the ability to maintain inner silence as a great aid to love making. Neuro-linquistic programming (NLP) looks at these different states in relationship to the usefulness in a specific context. Their goal is to be able to shift fluidly between the options. I think they are related to the states produced by meditation. Where I differ with traditional yogic theory is that they seem to feel that you can't have too much silence along with activity. I think you can depending on what you are doing. I agree with you, but I think that too much would only be a temporary state, due to inadequate integration. Also, the people I know who seem to be speaking from experience say that the whole witnessing/silence thing is a stage, and that silence is eventually perceived to be full of dynamism. I'm a little out of my league discussing this, but the point I'm trying to make is that there may be some undesirable aspects to certain stages in the development of consciousness, but these stages are transitional, and as one moves on, the undesirable aspects drop off and one is grateful to have persisted in the journey. exactly right Rick, in my experience. witnessing is nothing more than the first glimpses of ceding the individual ego to the cosmic ego. after awhile the cosmic ego predominates and the individual ego disappears. just as you said, it is all a matter of integration. The companion of silence which initially seems foreign is later found to be true identity. seeing these experiences of growing awareness as discrete and unrelated is similar to taking a car ride from Boston to San Francisco, exiting the vehicle in upstate New York, and declaring the path fragmented.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Bull's eye again, Mr. Archer, in my humble opinion. --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:40 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least just imperturbable. I'm glad you weighed in Rick. Sorry I dont have time to follow the discussion more closely. I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Our difference is that you regard these states as relative perspectives, whereas I regard them as openings to universal realities. That makes sense, since you doubt the existence of subtler realities. You also imply in your last sentence above that higher states make one emotionally numb. I think there is evidence for that in the TMO, but there is also evidence throughout the larger spiritual community that greater emotional richness accompanies development of consciousness. I dont know much about tantra, but I gather that tantrics regard the ability to maintain inner silence as a great aid to love making. Neuro-linquistic programming (NLP) looks at these different states in relationship to the usefulness in a specific context. Their goal is to be able to shift fluidly between the options. I think they are related to the states produced by meditation. Where I differ with traditional yogic theory is that they seem to feel that you can't have too much silence along with activity. I think you can depending on what you are doing. I agree with you, but I think that too much would only be a temporary state, due to inadequate integration. Also, the people I know who seem to be speaking from experience say that the whole witnessing/silence thing is a stage, and that silence is eventually perceived to be full of dynamism. Im a little out of my league discussing this, but the point Im trying to make is that there may be some undesirable aspects to certain stages in the development of consciousness, but these stages are transitional, and as one moves on, the undesirable aspects drop off and one is grateful to have persisted in the journey. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008 8:45 PM Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Turq's gonna get pissed again and say that what I claim as being my life is not believable. Well, damn, a Chinese monk did teach me that what Rick says is right. Silence is dynamic and silence isn't an aid in tantric lovemaking, it's indispensable. --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:40 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing, was: Steve Martin of Wilmington It was as though I were in deep meditation throughout the whole dynamic, noisy experience. Not withdrawn or passive in the least just imperturbable. I'm glad you weighed in Rick. Sorry I dont have time to follow the discussion more closely. I think your example illustrates that the usefulness of these states is context dependent. In a situation like you mentioned, a detached silence is a real asset. But I believe that this state is not useful for making love. Our difference is that you regard these states as relative perspectives, whereas I regard them as openings to universal realities. That makes sense, since you doubt the existence of subtler realities. You also imply in your last sentence above that higher states make one emotionally numb. I think there is evidence for that in the TMO, but there is also evidence throughout the larger spiritual community that greater emotional richness accompanies development of consciousness. I dont know much about tantra, but I gather that tantrics regard the ability to maintain inner silence as a great aid to love making. Neuro-linquistic programming (NLP) looks at these different states in relationship to the usefulness in a specific context. Their goal is to be able to shift fluidly between the options. I think they are related to the states produced by meditation. Where I differ with traditional yogic theory is that they seem to feel that you can't have too much silence along with activity. I think you can depending on what you are doing. I agree with you, but I think that too much would only be a temporary state, due to inadequate integration. Also, the people I know who seem to be speaking from experience say that the whole witnessing/silence thing is a stage, and that silence is eventually perceived to be full of dynamism. Im a little out of my league discussing this, but the point Im trying to make is that there may be some undesirable aspects to certain stages in the development of consciousness, but these stages are transitional, and as one moves on, the undesirable aspects drop off and one is grateful to have persisted in the journey. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008 8:45 PM Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Especially the correlation between noticing the witnessing and the lower level of activity (sitting on the terrace at twilight as opposed to moving furniture in Barry's case, and sitting in the car driving around versus digging out the cistern in Alex's case). The lower the activity level, the less competition the Self has for one's attention. Both of them mention the heat in which they had to do their more active task, which also would grab some attention, both from mind/ senses and physiology. Actually, to provide a little more information, I think that coorelation is a little too simplistic to be true, based on my own past experiences. That was just yesterday's experience that I wrote about yesterday. In the past, the most present or noticeable witnessing I've experienced often took place during times of the most *heightened* activity, not the most low level. One of my most intense experiences of witnessing took place when someone tried to mug me in Amsterdam. The intense witnessing started *during* the mugging, kept going when I turned the tables on the guy and wound up chasing *him* down the street rather than giving him my wallet, and lasted for a week or so afterwards. Several other times the witnessing seemed to be triggered by equally intense and active foreground events, such as making love or having to speak in front of thousands of people or climbing a mountain while fighting 100 mph winds. Go figure. Then again, there have been times when the witnessing has been triggered by the opposite, by the sudden perception of silence. I remember once I was hiking through a forest in Westchester County, enjoying what I perceived as the relative silence, compared to my normal workday in NYC. It was neat, but there was no direct appreciation of witnessing or anything like that. Then a big noise happened (they were doing construc- tion nearby, and someone set off some dynamite) and the forest *really* went silent. And I realized at that moment that on one level it had *not* been silent before. There had been frogs croaking, birds singing, lots and lots of sounds. They all went silent after the dynamite blast, and bam! there was the appreciation of the witnessing phenomenon. And then there have been times when it became notice- able when absolutely *nothing* out of the ordinary, either in terms of heightened activity or lessening activity, was going on. Bottom line for me is that after 30+ years of dealing with this coming and going of the appreciation of witnessing, I can pinpoint NO cause and effect relationship. NONE. It comes when it wants to, and it goes when it wants to, and on another level it's always present. Go figure. It just does its own thing. Nothing I have ever done to try to figure out a way to trigger it has EVER worked out. At this point I don't think that there IS anything that one can do to bring this appreciation of witnessing about. It's not up to me. And it's not up to any outside agency such as God. It is just what is. Sometimes it's noticeable, sometimes it's not, and it Really Doesn't Matter which is which. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
On Jul 28, 2005, at 12:58 AM, sparaig wrote: Of course, there's debate about whether or not chakras are part of the Vedic tradition in the first place. I want to see research on what each of these types of witnessing etails, physiologically speaking... There is very little that remains from the Vedic tradition--in fact most of what the TMO/M. promotes as Vedic is not Vedic at all. Chakras in the popular usage comes primarily from the first translation of the Sat Chakra Nirupana, a relatively recent text. I doubt there would be any measurable physiological correlation with our current level of technology, although these different states do correspond do specific styles of meditation, all of which ARE being studied and do possess certain styles of neurological epxression. Ultimately their goal is relax beyond dualistic witnessing and simply to be able to integrate the state of non-dual presence whether with thoughts or without thoughts or whatever. I cannot see how you'd measure that. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 28, 2005, at 12:58 AM, sparaig wrote: Of course, there's debate about whether or not chakras are part of the Vedic tradition in the first place. I want to see research on what each of these types of witnessing etails, physiologically speaking... There is very little that remains from the Vedic tradition--in fact most of what the TMO/M. promotes as Vedic is not Vedic at all. How so? Chakras in the popular usage comes primarily from the first translation of the Sat Chakra Nirupana, a relatively recent text. I doubt there would be any measurable physiological correlation with our current level of technology, although these different states do correspond do specific styles of meditation, all of which ARE being studied and do possess certain styles of neurological epxression. Ultimately their goal is relax beyond dualistic witnessing and simply to be able to integrate the state of non-dual presence whether with thoughts or without thoughts or whatever. I cannot see how you'd measure that. States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. Might I remind you that this is a hypotheis that has been taught to you, one that you hope is true but do not know is true? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
On Jul 28, 2005, at 8:01 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. Might I remind you that this is a hypotheis that has been taught to you, one that you hope is true but do not know is true? Pavlov's meditator? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. Might I remind you that this is a hypotheis that has been taught to you, one that you hope is true but do not know is true? Oh, good heavens, not at all. There's no question that waking, dreaming, and sleeping have distinct physiological signatures; that was well established before TM even came on the scene. And there's some pretty solid evidence that transcendence-- what Wallace called the wakeful hypometabolic state-- has distinct physiological features as well. And now of course they're studying sleep witnessing and seem to have some very suggestive results for that state too. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 28, 2005, at 8:01 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. Might I remind you that this is a hypotheis that has been taught to you, one that you hope is true but do not know is true? Pavlov's meditator? More like Heisenberg's Hunch. :-) When one sets out to measure a phenomenon, one's expectations and assumptions, if present, cannot help but affect what is found. Many scientists go into their experiments on the nature of states of consciousness wearing an assumption that states of consciousness are physiologically different, and that difference is measurable. They *expect* to find differences. And so they do. Their expectations create the differences. But the differences do not necessarily have anything to do with the different states of consciousness. IMO they have more to do with the nature of expectation that the scientists bring to the experiment. I think that experiments such as the ones you posted recently, about the real-world, practical-over-time benefits of meditation, are valuable and probably valuable, in that they would interest more people in the possible benefits of meditation. But experiments to prove the existence of something that has never even been *described* accurately in the entire history of human experience, and by definition *cannot* be? Give me a break. Scientists attempting to pinpoint the physiological nature of enlightenment *will* find things that they believe are indicators of enlightenment. They will find these things because they expect to find them. But the things they find may not necessarily have anything to do with enlightenment. One need look no further back than the original Wallace experiments and their emphasis on the presence of certain types of brainwaves to see this tendency to find what one already expects to find. Wallace found a bunch of brainwaves that, because of the nature of his belief in TM and what Maharishi had told him, he *expected* to find something. And he did. He associated these brainwave patterns with transcendence. Well, as time has passed it's turned out that these patterns occur in many circumstances, as a result of many different things, and thus probably has no real relationship to transcendence, right? But it seemed like a logical scientific find at the time. My suspicion is that this is *exactly* what is going to happen with future experiments that set out to find a physiological counterpart to enlightenment. The scientists are definitely going to find things. They *expect* to find things, so they will. And it'll seem to make sense at the time, and everyone in the TM movement (or whatever movement is spon- soring the experiments) will be excited because at last they'll have proof that enlightenment exists and what physiological indicators make it enlightenment. And this excitement will last for a year or two, and then someone will notice that the indicators also show up as a result of, say, eating too much chili. And the whole process will start all over again. :-) That's my feeling for what will happen as a result of the desire to scientifically validate enlightenment. I could be wrong. I often am. But I don't think I am in this case. I don't see the universe having created something (enlightenment) that has defied descrip- tion for this long (millennia) just up and relinquishing its mysteries just because people are afraid to accept their own subjective experience as sufficient proof of enlightenment. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Sparaig wrote:] Allof these things appear to me to be contained in MMY's theory about progression in CC... Especially the correlation between noticing the witnessing and the lower level of activity (sitting on the terrace at twilight as opposed to moving furniture in Barry's case, and sitting in the car driving around versus digging out the cistern in Alex's case). The lower the activity level, the less competition the Self has for one's attention. Both of them mention the heat in which they had to do their more active task, which also would grab some attention, both from mind/ senses and physiology. Actually, to provide a little more information, I think that coorelation is a little too simplistic to be true, Any particular reason for the scare quotes? based on my own past experiences. That was just yesterday's experience that I wrote about yesterday. In the past, the most present or noticeable witnessing I've experienced often took place during times of the most *heightened* activity, not the most low level. Yeah, I don't believe I said anything about the correlation *always* being the case, did I? In context (restored above), the question was whether the experiences you and Alex reported were consistent with MMY's explanations of witnessing. One would *expect* to be able to notice the Self more easily when one's activity level is low, but that doesn't mean it's always going to be the case, nor did I suggest it did. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 28, 2005, at 8:01 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. Might I remind you that this is a hypotheis that has been taught to you, one that you hope is true but do not know is true? Pavlov's meditator? More like Heisenberg's Hunch. :-) When one sets out to measure a phenomenon, one's expectations and assumptions, if present, cannot help but affect what is found. Many scientists go into their experiments on the nature of states of consciousness wearing an assumption that states of consciousness are physiologically different, and that difference is measurable. They *expect* to find differences. And so they do. Their expectations create the differences. But the differences do not necessarily have anything to do with the different states of consciousness. IMO they have more to do with the nature of expectation that the scientists bring to the experiment. I think that experiments such as the ones you posted recently, about the real-world, practical-over-time benefits of meditation, are valuable and probably valuable, in that they would interest more people in the possible benefits of meditation. But experiments to prove the existence of something that has never even been *described* accurately in the entire history of human experience, and by definition *cannot* be? Give me a break. It isn't a matter of proving the existence of anything. It's a matter of demonstrating a high degree of correlation between subjective reports of experiences and specific neurophysiological signatures. The studies that established the neurophysiological signature of dreaming did not prove that people had vivid fantasy experiences while asleep; it demonstrated that there was a high degree of correlation between the signatures and the subjective reports of those experiences. You can't really say dreaming has been described accurately either; you can cite some features that seem to be common to most people's dreaming experience, but it's very difficult, if not impossible, to describe the state itself. For that matter, we can't accurately describe even waking state *as a state*. snip One need look no further back than the original Wallace experiments and their emphasis on the presence of certain types of brainwaves to see this tendency to find what one already expects to find. Wallace found a bunch of brainwaves that, because of the nature of his belief in TM and what Maharishi had told him, he *expected* to find something. And he did. He associated these brainwave patterns with transcendence. Well, as time has passed it's turned out that these patterns occur in many circumstances, as a result of many different things, and thus probably has no real relationship to transcendence, right? Got citations to the studies that ruled out such a relationship? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
On Jul 28, 2005, at 9:24 AM, authfriend wrote: Oh, good heavens, not at all. There's no question that waking, dreaming, and sleeping have distinct physiological signatures; that was well established before TM even came on the scene. I believe, given the context of the conversation, he was referring the higher states of consciousness or at least other states of consciousness (than waking/dreaming/sleeping). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 28, 2005, at 9:24 AM, authfriend wrote: Oh, good heavens, not at all. There's no question that waking, dreaming, and sleeping have distinct physiological signatures; that was well established before TM even came on the scene. I believe, given the context of the conversation, he was referring the higher states of consciousness or at least other states of consciousness (than waking/dreaming/sleeping). Right. My point was that a basis for the assumption that different states of consciousness have unique neurophysiological signatures was already established prior to TM. I went on to point out (which you seem to have snipped) that there is some pretty good evidence that other states of consciousness than waking/dreaming/sleeping also have their own unique signatures. So it is not, contrary to Barry's claim, just something TMers have been taught. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates H
TurguoiseB writes: At this point I don't think that there IS anything that one can do to bring this appreciation of witnessing about. It's not up to me. And it's not up to any outside agency such as God. It is just what is. Sometimes it's noticeable, sometimes it's not, and it Really Doesn't Matter which is which. Tom T writes: It has been my experience over the last 18 months that the appreciation is the key rather than the witnessing. The understanding that has emerged is that the outward stroke of this appreciation is the continual deepening of the appreciation. The inward stroke (or curving back upon myself) is ever finer levels of intimacy with all of creation. At this point there seems to be no end to how much this physiology can appreciate and how intimate one can be with all of creation. One morning after about 6 months into this finer and finer appreciation it became apparent to me that Mother Divine had consummated this relationship. I lay in bed and was cuddled by the understanding of this consummated relationship. The effect of this deepening is that desires have now been transformed into waves of appreciation. This also answers one of the other threads here about what happens to desires as we deepen into the wholeness. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates H
Tom T writes: It has been my experience over the last 18 months that the appreciation is the key rather than the witnessing. The understanding that has emerged is that the outward stroke of this appreciation is the continual deepening of the appreciation. The inward stroke (or curving back upon myself) is ever finer levels of intimacy with all of creation. At this point there seems to be no end to how much this physiology can appreciate and how intimate one can be with all of creation. One morning after about 6 months into this finer and finer appreciation it became apparent to me that Mother Divine had consummated this relationship. I lay in bed and was cuddled by the understanding of this consummated relationship. The effect of this deepening is that desires have now been transformed into waves of appreciation. This also answers one of the other threads here about what happens to desires as we deepen into the wholeness. I can dig that. 'Appreciation' for whatever arises is a much better term than desire, and a much cleaner model for how to interact with creation. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: States of consciousness have physiological signatures, regardless of mental content. Might I remind you that this is a hypotheis that has been taught to you, one that you hope is true but do not know is true? Um, Western thought these days *defines* states of consciousness by their physiological correlates, and witnessing ala TM has reasonably consistent correlates. So there. Nyah. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 27, 2005, at 2:24 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: I'm wondering whether there might be a better model for witnessing than a simple binary ON/OFF switch. How about more of a rheostat control? You move the slider on the light switch to its first position and the light clicks on. But you can control how *brightly* the light is on by moving the slider further up the scale. Is it possible that there are varying degrees of witnessing, seperate-but-equal levels of appreciation of the same phenomenon? In the oral tradition of practice from both Gaudapada (one of the Holy Trad.) and yogas from the tantras all seem to share at least three different types of witnessing: witnessing at the level of the ajna, the throat and heart chakra. The quality of presence at each is quite different, so they are taught for integrating different types of experience and different states of consciousness. In some of them the sense of witnessing is almost too bright for good sleeping yet are more suitable for waking, where the brightness is more welcome. And still others will bring presence to the dream state. Neat. Very useful information. Thank you. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm wondering whether there might be a better model for witnessing than a simple binary ON/OFF switch. How about more of a rheostat control? Sure, why not? But, it does seem like the witnessing state can come and go, a la the binary ON/OFF switch. IIRC, one guy at the Wednesday night satsangs expressed great relief when the 24/7 witnessing stopped. I also spoke with one of the Waking Down teachers about witnessing sleep, and he said he'd experienced it and that sleep was more enjoyable without it. Back in May, I drove up to Minneapolis, and I got lost in St. Louis Park (a suburb) looking for my hotel. And, it was very interesting to become aware that part of me was not at all involved in the anger and frustration of being lost in a big city. Fast forward to a few days ago, when our water system died, and I needed to access the cistern, and I discovered that the cistern lid was half-buried under heavy clay because the goddamned vastu rectification encroached on it, and I had to fucking hack away at rock hard soil in 100 fucking degree heat because some superstitious bullshit meant soil needed to be piled up on top of existing critical infrastructure. Was I aware of that uninvolved witness at that moment? No fucking way. I was pissed off beyond belief and totally overshadowed. I think the lesson there is that shift happens, and it's best to not latch on to any particular state or experience. Alex To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm wondering whether there might be a better model for witnessing than a simple binary ON/OFF switch. How about more of a rheostat control? Sure, why not? But, it does seem like the witnessing state can come and go, a la the binary ON/OFF switch. IIRC, one guy at the Wednesday night satsangs expressed great relief when the 24/7 witnessing stopped. I also spoke with one of the Waking Down teachers about witnessing sleep, and he said he'd experienced it and that sleep was more enjoyable without it. Back in May, I drove up to Minneapolis, and I got lost in St. Louis Park (a suburb) looking for my hotel. And, it was very interesting to become aware that part of me was not at all involved in the anger and frustration of being lost in a big city. Fast forward to a few days ago, when our water system died, and I needed to access the cistern, and I discovered that the cistern lid was half-buried under heavy clay because the goddamned vastu rectification encroached on it, and I had to fucking hack away at rock hard soil in 100 fucking degree heat because some superstitious bullshit meant soil needed to be piled up on top of existing critical infrastructure. Was I aware of that uninvolved witness at that moment? No fucking way. I was pissed off beyond belief and totally overshadowed. I think the lesson there is that shift happens, and it's best to not latch on to any particular state or experience. I can identify with all of the above. I had to help my neighbor move furniture today in heat almost as bad, and could have sworn at the time that there was no witnessing going down. Then I sat at twilight on the terrace of the house I'm staying in. It is built upon and overlooks the ramparts of the medieval village. The swallows were out, swooping everywhere, pick- ing insects out of the air. And voila! there was full-fledged, Grade A Prime witnessing. And the second thought that hit me, after the thought, Oh, there's that witnessing thing again, was, Oh shit...this has been here all day, but I just didn't notice it. So I'm wondering whether the ON/OFF switch really is the proper metaphor. Now that I look back on it, another way of describing today would be that during the day I was operating with a low appreciation of the witnessing, and when evening came, for whatever reason, I shifted to operating with a higher appreciation of witnessing. But there was no sense of shift, of a transistion from non-witnessing to witnessing. It was more like noticing, after the fact, that I had moved from less witnessing to more witnessing. I've never really noticed this lack of shift before. It's an interesting perception, and has caused me to rethink many things and challenge many previously-assumed assumptions. Cool day. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've had witnessing 24/7 for the past several years? I think taste of witnessing implies that it was neither 27/7 nor for years. You seem fixated on witnessing as if it's some sort of absolute benchmark of awakening. However, if you listen to what awakened people have to say, you'll find that witnessing is not at all the benchmark that the TMO makes it out to be. I'm wondering whether there might be a better model for witnessing than a simple binary ON/OFF switch. How about more of a rheostat control? You move the slider on the light switch to its first position and the light clicks on. But you can control how *brightly* the light is on by moving the slider further up the scale. Is it possible that there are varying degrees of witnessing, seperate-but-equal levels of appreciation of the same phenomenon? From one point of view, I have never stopped witnessing since it first appeared one day in Fiuggi, on my TTC. Some part of me has never gone back to the pre-realization me, no matter how dark or light the path has gotten since then. From another, there have certainly been times when this witnessing, given the intensity of the events of the present, shrank to an almost imperceptible level. And there have been an equal number of times when this witnessing *expanded*, or extended its boundaries, or revealed new levels of itself, so as to almost diminish my first experience of witnessing in Fiuggi to an almost imperceptible level. Doesn't it make more sense to view witnessing as a continuum rather than as the achievement of a goal? In one school of Judo, they have a really cool idea of what a black belt is and what it means. To most of us, having attained a black belt is looked upon as an awesome thing, a pinnacle attained by few, a certicate of mastery. This particular school of Judo felt that attaining a 1st degree black belt was a good start. It *was* in a sense an achievement -- getting a black belt meant that you had officially attained the rank of beginner. You were now privy to the secret that there is Much To Be Learned before one gets to 10th degree black belt. Anyway, I was thinking that maybe witnessing is a lot like this. You get tastes of witnessing early on, long before you even realize that you're getting them, and then one day all heck breaks loose and you get a taste of 24/7 witnessing. And when that sticks around for a while, that's like getting a 1st degree black belt. At this point there may still be Much To Be Learned. Sure, sounds reasonable. I've often wondered at what permanent witnessing might be like as opposed to not-so-permanent witnessing. By the same token, can we be sure that 24/7 witnessing for 10 years is really permanent witnessing. MMY has commented that some people in the TMO have quite mature CC, but that doesn't say its the real thing, even at the CC level. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Witnessing (was 'Former Meditator Creates High-Tech Enlightenment...')
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 27, 2005, at 2:24 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: I'm wondering whether there might be a better model for witnessing than a simple binary ON/OFF switch. How about more of a rheostat control? You move the slider on the light switch to its first position and the light clicks on. But you can control how *brightly* the light is on by moving the slider further up the scale. Is it possible that there are varying degrees of witnessing, seperate-but-equal levels of appreciation of the same phenomenon? In the oral tradition of practice from both Gaudapada (one of the Holy Trad.) and yogas from the tantras all seem to share at least three different types of witnessing: witnessing at the level of the ajna, the throat and heart chakra. The quality of presence at each is quite different, so they are taught for integrating different types of experience and different states of consciousness. In some of them the sense of witnessing is almost too bright for good sleeping yet are more suitable for waking, where the brightness is more welcome. And still others will bring presence to the dream state. Of course, there's debate about whether or not chakras are part of the Vedic tradition in the first place. I want to see research on what each of these types of witnessing etails, physiologically speaking... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
