Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Agree with you, John! "Every part is independent"! - Original Message - From: "John Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music At 2:40 PM -0400 8/25/07, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:29 PM, John Howell wrote: It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the Eb soprano. Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower clarinets. When I was in bands (admittedly a long time ago now) it was definitely *not* prestigious to play the alto clarinet, Sorry, out of context. The second sentence was intended to refer to an earlier sentence. But you're quite right about the alto. Directors assign less competent players to the instrument, and then complain that nobody plays alto well. Self-fulfilling prophesy! In my own case, for reasons known only to the gods of statistics, we always have one, often two, and occasionally three alto clarinets in our Community Band, and the ladies who play them are quite competent, so I do write real parts for them and don't just double 3rd clarinet or alto sax. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
I agree with you, David. When I orchestrate or arrange, and want a specific sound from an instrument family, I'll have no qualms about using an alto clarinet (non-doubled) or a couple flugelhorns, or whatever. I mandate that the ensemble find the instrument or don't play the piece; I'm that adamant about it. Glad some people out there feel the same way. - Original Message - From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music David W. Fenton wrote: [snip]> Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the music they are playing? I think you would find that the upper level university bands and professional bands will perform as close to the original instrumentation as possible, even to the use of Db piccolos. But the lower level university bands (at those colleges and universities which have more than one band) and all community bands are a lot like high school bands -- if you're a member you expect to play some in every piece. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Sounds logical to me, but I wanted to double-check. Thanks! Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music > Hey Aaron, > > It will definitely be easier on the player to write for Bb trumpet > doubling fluegelhorn, so that the entire part is in Bb. > > Cheers, > > - Darcy > - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Brooklyn, NY > > > > On 26 Aug 2007, at 1:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three > > players > > to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any > > of the > > trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters > > would have > > preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in > > these > > circumstances? > > > > > > > > Aaron J. Rabushka > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://users.waymark.net/arabushk > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 3:17 PM -0400 8/26/07, John Howell wrote: Guy Hayden wrote: I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there is no difference between the two instruments. I suspect that you would also find that those players use mouthpieces with the same cup, throat, and rim as their trumpet mouthpieces, the only difference being the smaller shank. And the single most important difference in tone quality and flexibility is the difference between a true cornet mouthpiece and a true trumpet mouthpiece. Trumpet mouthpieces have also tended to adopt smaller inside dimensions over the years. I understand that Vincent Bach's own mouthpieces was the equivalent of the Bach 1C. I played a 3C for many years, which was quite large enough for me, while my companions usually went for the 10 1/2 C. Oops! I just realized that I misread your sentence, but I think my comment is still valid John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Guy Hayden wrote: I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there is no difference between the two instruments. I suspect that you would also find that those players use mouthpieces with the same cup, throat, and rim as their trumpet mouthpieces, the only difference being the smaller shank. And the single most important difference in tone quality and flexibility is the difference between a true cornet mouthpiece and a true trumpet mouthpiece. Trumpet mouthpieces have also tended to adopt smaller inside dimensions over the years. I understand that Vincent Bach's own mouthpieces was the equivalent of the Bach 1C. I played a 3C for many years, which was quite large enough for me, while my companions usually went for the 10 1/2 C. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On 26-Aug-07, at 1:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three players to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any of the trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters would have preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in these circumstances? The players I write for prefer modern parts notated in Bb (though of course they can read anything!) Most of the repertoire is written for Bb, and the ones that prefer to play C as their main instrument (most of them) are so used to reading Bb parts that anything else risks confusion, especially switching back and forth to Bb flugel. There IS kind of a Bb splat that I miss sometimes when I hear certain music played on C trumpet, but that is so nit-picky that I shouldn't really say anything, and leave it up to the players. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Hey Aaron, It will definitely be easier on the player to write for Bb trumpet doubling fluegelhorn, so that the entire part is in Bb. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 Aug 2007, at 1:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three players to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any of the trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters would have preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in these circumstances? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
And while we're on the subject, my current project calls for three players to alternate quite often between fluegelhorns and trumpets. Can any of the trumpeters here enlighten me as to whether orchestral trumpters would have preferences for the trumpet parts to be written in B-flat or C in these circumstances? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Guy Hayden wrote: I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there is no difference between the two instruments. OTH, cornetists will insist that a marked difference exists. As both a band and orchestra conductor I do recognize a difference in the sound. Mind you, I grew up (mid-50s) playing in bands with large contingents of both instruments. The comment about Tschaikovsky's use reminds me that "Capriccio Italien" calls for both cornets and trumpets. For a guest conducting gig a while back I asked for both instruments in Berlioz' orchestration of von Weber's "Invitation to the Dance". None of the regular trumpeters owned cornets so auxiliary players were engaged for the parts, causing bit of grumping by the trumpeters! I have heard that Clarke commented that he could not understand why anyone would want to play cornet parts on the trumpet. Maybe he knew something about the different sound from the two? Guy Hayden As a trumpet player, I find the difference between the trumpet and cornet to be very pronounced, though some players do what they can to minimize the differences. A lot can be done with mouthpiece selection to make the difference more or less pronounced, but ideally a cornet should have a warm, round sound, while a trumpet should have a bright, clear sound. Also, as has been said before, trumpets project much better than cornets. When I get a call for a gig that calls for cornet, I bring one, and when I play jazz in small intimate settings I prefer to play cornet, but the vast majority of calls are for trumpet. And flugelhorn is a whole other can of worms. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
I have found that trumpeters who do not play cornet will insist that there is no difference between the two instruments. OTH, cornetists will insist that a marked difference exists. As both a band and orchestra conductor I do recognize a difference in the sound. Mind you, I grew up (mid-50s) playing in bands with large contingents of both instruments. The comment about Tschaikovsky's use reminds me that "Capriccio Italien" calls for both cornets and trumpets. For a guest conducting gig a while back I asked for both instruments in Berlioz' orchestration of von Weber's "Invitation to the Dance". None of the regular trumpeters owned cornets so auxiliary players were engaged for the parts, causing bit of grumping by the trumpeters! I have heard that Clarke commented that he could not understand why anyone would want to play cornet parts on the trumpet. Maybe he knew something about the different sound from the two? Guy Hayden -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raymond Horton Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 10:28 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music dhbailey wrote: > Ken Moore wrote: >> John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose >>> instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching >>> band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper >>> mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and >>> not because instruments are not available. >> >> It's not just the wind band that needs it. Lots of French music of >> the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in >> "Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and >> differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky >> ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also. I would expect >> historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms >> symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments >> about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument. >> > > > I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more > than just specialty conductors would request the accurate > instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments. > > Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I > would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets. > With pro orchestras cornet use varies a lot according to preferences of players and conductors. It is common to see all the parts played on trumpets. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
dhbailey wrote: Ken Moore wrote: John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. It's not just the wind band that needs it. Lots of French music of the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in "Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also. I would expect historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument. I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more than just specialty conductors would request the accurate instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments. Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets. One more thing - in Berlioz, and a few lessers of the time, the difference was more than sound. The trumpets were natural, the cornets valved.That distinction was gone by Tchaikovsky. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
dhbailey wrote: Ken Moore wrote: John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. It's not just the wind band that needs it. Lots of French music of the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in "Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also. I would expect historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument. I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more than just specialty conductors would request the accurate instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments. Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets. With pro orchestras cornet use varies a lot according to preferences of players and conductors. It is common to see all the parts played on trumpets. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Ken Moore wrote: John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. It's not just the wind band that needs it. Lots of French music of the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in "Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also. I would expect historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument. I would expect that with cornets fairly common these days that more than just specialty conductors would request the accurate instrumentation, just as they do for all the other instruments. Smaller college, high school and community orchestras would be where I would expect to find all the parts played on trumpets. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Sure -- I'm always open to new possibilities and even if it won't be right for my community band, I speak with others for whom it might be a perfect fit. Thanks! David Aaron Rabushka wrote: I don't know yet--it's only been out a few weeks. The "wind ensemble" marking was MMB's idea rather than mine. Would you like me ot send you a promo-blurb, David? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available). Interesting -- how many copies have been sold? As the director of a community band I don't even bother looking at scores marked "Wind Ensemble" because of the more finicky instrumentation requirements. Which really doesn't matter much except to me and my band, but I am curious about the sales figures (not specifics, of course, but have you sold "a few" "some" "a lot" "enough to retire on") since all the other community band directors I know feel the same way. - David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. It's not just the wind band that needs it. Lots of French music of the 19th C., from Berlioz to Dukas (some demanding passages in "Sorcerer's Apprentice"), has both cornet and trumpet parts, and differentiates them markedly; it is specified in some Tchaikovsky ballets and Prokofiev's "Lieutenat Kijé" also. I would expect historically informed conductors like Norrington (who did the Brahms symphonies with a near approximation to the original instruments about 10 years ago) and Rattle to insist on having the right instrument. -- Ken Moore ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 2:40 PM -0400 8/25/07, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:29 PM, John Howell wrote: It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the Eb soprano. Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower clarinets. When I was in bands (admittedly a long time ago now) it was definitely *not* prestigious to play the alto clarinet, Sorry, out of context. The second sentence was intended to refer to an earlier sentence. But you're quite right about the alto. Directors assign less competent players to the instrument, and then complain that nobody plays alto well. Self-fulfilling prophesy! In my own case, for reasons known only to the gods of statistics, we always have one, often two, and occasionally three alto clarinets in our Community Band, and the ladies who play them are quite competent, so I do write real parts for them and don't just double 3rd clarinet or alto sax. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 8:25 AM -0400 8/25/07, dhbailey wrote: It's a very tricky situation, and one that composers have always had to navigate carefully. John Cacavas sold an awful lot of band music. His arrangements have something for everyone and doublings/cues for those situations when the originally desired instrument for a passage isn't available. I think David makes a very important point here. When I write for band, it's usually for our Community Band (although the music is playable by any band or wind ensemble, of course). And I do make a very conscious effort, within my musical conception, to keep in mind every section and even individual players, and try to give them something satisfying and perhaps challenging to play. Maybe it's because I'm both a performer and a teacher, rather than a hard-core composer, but I LIKE the players to enjoy my music. I have a feeling that too many wannabe orchestral composer don't think like that at all, and then don't understand why there music doesn't get played. You have to compose for yourself, of course, but also for your players and for your audiences. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 7:51 AM -0400 8/25/07, dhbailey wrote: Sousa's band didn't march more than a couple of times. At least his civilian band. The Marine Band marched, and the band he led in WWI at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center marched, but his civilian band mostly just played concerts. Hey, they marched through town playing "Dixie" to attract an audience! I saw the movie!!! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 25, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Hmm, sort of a compromise between Flug and Tpt. That's the problem right there: there isn't enough space between those two insts. to put in a third. Actually, those proclaiming the death of the cornet are off by a couple of decades. At the time I wrote my book (pub. 1983), the cornet had become virtually indistinguishable from the trp., but that has since reversed, because of the original-instruments movement. Nowadays cornets are often built in the old pattern and played with proper mouthpieces--which means they have moved well away from the trp., but are now in danger of sounding indistinguishable from the flghn. My _Procrustean Concerto for the Bb Clarinet_ calls for 2 flghn--an instrument I greatly love. When the piece was recorded in Poland, the Warsaw Orchestra couldn't get flugels, so I told them to use cornets, and the result was just right. Except that I had written (as I always do) for 4-valve flghns, and the cornets couldn't play the extra low notes. The trombones took 'em and made a reasonable stab at imitating the proper tone quality. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On 25 Aug 2007 at 14:34, Christopher Smith wrote: > On Aug 25, 2007, at 2:14 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > > > There are also national variations, as I found to my surprise when > > presented with a piece scored for the standard Maltese band of > > today, which is so different from the American one that I felt > > compelled to add this note to the instrumentation page: > > > > This piece is scored for a standard Maltese band. With the > > composerÕs approval, additional parts for the full complement of an > > American concert band are included among the performance materials. > > > > Conductors wishing to play this piece with the forces for which it > > was conceived should use approximately the following numbers of > > players: 1+1 flutes, 2 E² clarinets, 12+10 B² clarinets, 2 alto > > sax, 2 tenor sax, 6+5 trumpets, 1+1+1 horns, 1+1+1 trombones, 6 > > baritones, 6 euphoniums, 6 tubas, 1+1+1 percussion. > > Whee! Six and five trumpets, 6 baritones, 6 euphs, 6 tubas, and only > two flutes one on a part and three horns one on a part! You know, > sometimes I say to myself, I sure would like to hear more bottom end, > well I might just like it in Malta! Yes, but that's somewhat balanced out by 22 Bb clarinets. The band is, pretty much, by definition, a low and middle range ensemble in comparison to the orchestra, with few instruments that can go as high as violins do regularly in orchestral music. The surprise for me in that instrumentation is the trombones, actually. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
And some of the Czech folk bands I saw in Moravia were also interesting--I don't know all of the ins and outs, but tenor tubas of some sort were always there (no problems finding one for my recordings) along wih clarinets, trumpets, tuba, slide trombones, and an occasional valve 'bone. When singers were there they were miked. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:29 PM, John Howell wrote: It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the Eb soprano. Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower clarinets. When I was in bands (admittedly a long time ago now) it was definitely *not* prestigious to play the alto clarinet, Playing it was considered evidence that you were not good enough to play even 2d clarinet. Maybe 3d. Most band music, at least of that day, accordingly buries the alto clarinet line where it can't be heard, and never assigns it anything exposed. I suspect that the orchestral players who play Eb soprano on such things as "Symphonie Fantastique" might take offense. Chavez, Symphony #2 "Sinfonia India" has an absolutely gorgeous, and quite lengthy, solo for the instrument. Check it out. Your average professional orchestra includes a "utility clarinet" player who is expected to play (and own!) Bb/ACl, Bscl, Ebcl, Asax, Tsax, or Btsax whenever called upon to do so. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 25, 2007, at 2:14 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: There are also national variations, as I found to my surprise when presented with a piece scored for the standard Maltese band of today, which is so different from the American one that I felt compelled to add this note to the instrumentation page: This piece is scored for a standard Maltese band. With the composer’s approval, additional parts for the full complement of an American concert band are included among the performance materials. Conductors wishing to play this piece with the forces for which it was conceived should use approximately the following numbers of players: 1+1 flutes, 2 E≤ clarinets, 12+10 B≤ clarinets, 2 alto sax, 2 tenor sax, 6+5 trumpets, 1+1+1 horns, 1+1+1 trombones, 6 baritones, 6 euphoniums, 6 tubas, 1+1+1 percussion. Whee! Six and five trumpets, 6 baritones, 6 euphs, 6 tubas, and only two flutes one on a part and three horns one on a part! You know, sometimes I say to myself, I sure would like to hear more bottom end, well I might just like it in Malta! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 24, 2007, at 9:29 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Now, in college-level bands, surely the tenor sax majors and many of the altos also double on soprano, so I don't see how that would be incredibly difficult to come by one player for it Any saxophonist worthy of the name can play every size of the instrument at a moment's notice. There is no such thing as an "alto saxophonist." To an only slightly lesser extent, the same is true of clarinetists, flutists, oboists; and all college/pro bassoonists are taught to master the cbn at some point. It's true that the first chair WW in most major orchestras refuse to play anything but their main ax, but that's just a tolerated unprofessionalism. Which IMO should not be tolerated any longer. When the Haydn Symphony 22 is played, the first oboe actually sits it out because both parts are for English horns! Totally daft. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 24, 2007, at 7:26 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: When playing works of the early and mid-nineteenth century, historical modern performances can and should try to reproduce the instrumentation of the time, and some colleges and whatever pro performances occur, will do that, time to time. But the tradition of band music, (the changing personnel on these recordings even gives us a hint), is pretty much 'whoever shows up gets to play', There are also national variations, as I found to my surprise when presented with a piece scored for the standard Maltese band of today, which is so different from the American one that I felt compelled to add this note to the instrumentation page: This piece is scored for a standard Maltese band. With the composer’s approval, additional parts for the full complement of an American concert band are included among the performance materials. Conductors wishing to play this piece with the forces for which it was conceived should use approximately the following numbers of players: 1+1 flutes, 2 E≤ clarinets, 12+10 B≤ clarinets, 2 alto sax, 2 tenor sax, 6+5 trumpets, 1+1+1 horns, 1+1+1 trombones, 6 baritones, 6 euphoniums, 6 tubas, 1+1+1 percussion. In Malta, the baritone horn is known as “alto horn in B≤.” To avoid confusion, we have adopted the more familiar terminology for this publication. The extra parts I added were for piccolo, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, alto and bass clarinets, baritone saxophone, and 4 horns in F. The low WW and 4th horn would hopefully make up for the lack of massed baritones and euphoniums in an American band. The picc. reinforces the EbCl; I forget what I did w. the oboes. The extra instruments appear as parts only; they are not cued in the score. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 10:56 PM -0400 8/24/07, David W. Fenton wrote: On 24 Aug 2007 at 22:29, John Howell wrote: Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying, and of course it's possible to delete instruments from a given ensemble, but you'd have to have a conductor who believes in doing so, and players who accept that it is a good idea to have a few minutes off. Yes, but it's mostly not done, right? Correct. It's mostly not done. One way I can describe the difference between the orchestra and band worlds is this: the orchestra exists to serve the music; the music exists to serve the band. Aaron's suggestion that it might be time for a HIP approach to earlier band music might be just the ticket, for those interested in that kind of thing, but that will always be a small minority. Seems like a given to me. It could make programming easier, too, though scheduling of rehearsals would be harder. That is, make up a performance from different groups of players in different ensembles -- with less music for some of the players, perhaps the groups overall could play harder music prepared in a shorter time. That's the approach we take in the NYU Collegium, where hardly anyone performs in everything (well, I almost always do, but that's because I'm a continuo and viol player both). And that's exactly the approach I take with our Early Music Ensemble, as well, and you're right, it makes scheduling rehearsals a zoo! The difference might be that I encourage people to do more than one thing, if they're interested and capable. So that in the course of a single concert I might have one student singing soprano on one piece, playing violin on another, recorder in one set, and treble viol in another. On the other hand I also welcome students who do just one thing, and pick music to fit their capabilities. Probably never happen, but I think it would be great fun to play with you, David. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Hmm, sort of a compromise between Flug and Tpt. Dean On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Cornets are actually enjoying a bit of a renaissance on the NYC jazz scene. Dave Douglas, one of the most influential and critically acclaimed trumpet players of the past ten years, has switched from trumpet to cornet as his primary instrument. He was following in the footsteps of a lot of lesser-known but well- regarded local players -- guys like Taylor Ho Bynum, who made the switch several years ago. Of course, jazz has always had a few cornet holdouts (like Thad Jones), but I've seen a big increase in the number of dedicated jazz cornet players in NYC just over the past 4 years. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 24 Aug 2007, at 9:03 PM, John Howell wrote: The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all- purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
A tricky situation indeed. While on the topic, what Band publishers are presently accepting submissions? Dean On Aug 25, 2007, at 5:25 AM, dhbailey wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very often in school bands there's an unspoken requirement that everyone be playing most of the time to keep them occupied. When I wrote my first wind ensemble piece my intent was NOT to write yet another John Cacavas-type excursion into razzle-dazzle, I was roundly criticized for not having everyone playing all the time. Can't please everyone. Indeed -- that's always been the composer's nightmare. How to find some path between the extremes on the one hand of writing exactly what you want to hear and expecting to hear exactly what you wrote and on the other hand of writing music which larger numbers of people will purchase and perform. It's a very tricky situation, and one that composers have always had to navigate carefully. John Cacavas sold an awful lot of band music. His arrangements have something for everyone and doublings/ cues for those situations when the originally desired instrument for a passage isn't available. I would be that every high school and most community and university band libraries have several John Cacavas works. He knew how to write what people wanted to play. Same for James Swearingen in more modern days. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
I don't know yet--it's only been out a few weeks. The "wind ensemble" marking was MMB's idea rather than mine. Would you like me ot send you a promo-blurb, David? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays > > what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on > > any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's > > interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published > > Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed > > oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available). > > > > > Interesting -- how many copies have been sold? > > As the director of a community band I don't even bother looking at > scores marked "Wind Ensemble" because of the more finicky > instrumentation requirements. Which really doesn't matter much except > to me and my band, but I am curious about the sales figures (not > specifics, of course, but have you sold "a few" "some" "a lot" "enough > to retire on") since all the other community band directors I know feel > the same way. > > - > David H. Bailey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very often in school bands there's an unspoken requirement that everyone be playing most of the time to keep them occupied. When I wrote my first wind ensemble piece my intent was NOT to write yet another John Cacavas-type excursion into razzle-dazzle, I was roundly criticized for not having everyone playing all the time. Can't please everyone. Indeed -- that's always been the composer's nightmare. How to find some path between the extremes on the one hand of writing exactly what you want to hear and expecting to hear exactly what you wrote and on the other hand of writing music which larger numbers of people will purchase and perform. It's a very tricky situation, and one that composers have always had to navigate carefully. John Cacavas sold an awful lot of band music. His arrangements have something for everyone and doublings/cues for those situations when the originally desired instrument for a passage isn't available. I would be that every high school and most community and university band libraries have several John Cacavas works. He knew how to write what people wanted to play. Same for James Swearingen in more modern days. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
David W. Fenton wrote: [snip]> Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the music they are playing? I think you would find that the upper level university bands and professional bands will perform as close to the original instrumentation as possible, even to the use of Db piccolos. But the lower level university bands (at those colleges and universities which have more than one band) and all community bands are a lot like high school bands -- if you're a member you expect to play some in every piece. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Christopher Smith wrote: On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, [snip] The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse! I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at least twice as heavy. Sousa's band didn't march more than a couple of times. At least his civilian band. The Marine Band marched, and the band he led in WWI at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center marched, but his civilian band mostly just played concerts. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available). Interesting -- how many copies have been sold? As the director of a community band I don't even bother looking at scores marked "Wind Ensemble" because of the more finicky instrumentation requirements. Which really doesn't matter much except to me and my band, but I am curious about the sales figures (not specifics, of course, but have you sold "a few" "some" "a lot" "enough to retire on") since all the other community band directors I know feel the same way. - David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Daniel Wolf wrote: I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note? If someone has articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. At least in the U.S. the vast majority of bands are educational in purpose -- band directors don't want (and for behavior and discipline they CAN'T have) students sitting idle for large amounts of rehearsal time. The next largest number of bands are college/university bands -- many (most?) colleges have more than one band, some with as many as 3 or 4 (or more) where the "lowest" level band is really an extension of high school band and is open without audition to any student (or faculty member in many cases) to come participate in. As such, they don't want people who are there as a hobby to feel their time is being wasted by being told that they can't play for several works on the next concert. The upper level bands would be far more likely to program works which add extra instruments and/or omit some instruments, since the members are there by invitation (after passing an audition) to begin with. Then there are the community bands, where people come once a week (in most cases) to relax by making music in a band environment. Tell them they can't play for part of a concert and they'll go find another band where they're more needed. Doublings (or cues) are desirable so that band works are performable by more ensembles which might not have the original instruments those passages are scored for -- this allows many bands to perform works which otherwise they would have to pass on, selling more copies for the composer and making the performances more diverse. It's an entirely different world from orchestras, where everybody except the strings knows there will be works they aren't needed for, and they accept that gladly in exchange for the privilege of performing orchestral music. Two very different worlds, bands and orchestras, with two very different views of who should play and when. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Cornets are actually enjoying a bit of a renaissance on the NYC jazz scene. Dave Douglas, one of the most influential and critically acclaimed trumpet players of the past ten years, has switched from trumpet to cornet as his primary instrument. He was following in the footsteps of a lot of lesser-known but well-regarded local players -- guys like Taylor Ho Bynum, who made the switch several years ago. Of course, jazz has always had a few cornet holdouts (like Thad Jones), but I've seen a big increase in the number of dedicated jazz cornet players in NYC just over the past 4 years. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 24 Aug 2007, at 9:03 PM, John Howell wrote: The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Oh, the instrument (Eb Cornet) is available, for certain, and still standard for brass bands, as are a whole set of Bb Cornets. It is not a standard instrument in concert bands anymore. College wind ensembles could use it for historical performances if they wish, or sub an Eb trumpet, (which several of the college students will probably own) if the members of rest of the section are playing trumpets. I think we are making too much of the difference between cornets and trumpets, frankly. Do some blind tests, and I think you will often hear more difference between players than between instruments. Cornets are mellower, sweeter, and project less, but I've heard guys who can make the difference vanish, in both good and bad ways. For a look at the world in which cornets are alive and well, see the NABBA (North American Brass Band Association) website: http://www.nabba.org/ NABBA's championship is held, for the next several years, a few miles from my house at Indiana University Southeast in New Albany. Thousands of brass band members from all over the US, and from other continents as well, flock to the campus for two days every spring. The quality in the upper levels is extremely high. I sub on solo euphonium with one of the two local brass bands in the area now and then. The traditional music is nearly all British, and is great fun. Not the problems of varying instrumentation of mixed bands, as was mentioned earlier - the instrumentation is standard. (There is also a smaller nine-piece standard group, also but I have no experience with it.) Raymond Horton John Howell wrote: At 11:15 PM -0400 8/23/07, Raymond Horton wrote: Missing the Eb soprano cornet is a problem for modern band with these older works, but with more woodwinds in the modern band this can often suffice. I've been working a lot with British-style brass bands, lately, and the Eb soprano cornets are certainly the woodwinds of those groups. Actually I just got the Fall-Winter catalog for The WoodWind & Brasswind, and took a moment to look through the trumpet-cornet-flugelhorn pages. Yes, they list many more pages of trumpets, both Bb and specialty keys, but there are several pages of cornets and several choices of Eb soprano cornets, including Schilke, which ain't chopped liver! The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On 24 Aug 2007 at 22:29, John Howell wrote: > Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying, and of course it's > possible to delete instruments from a given ensemble, but you'd have > to have a conductor who believes in doing so, and players who accept > that it is a good idea to have a few minutes off. Yes, but it's mostly not done, right? > Aaron's suggestion that it might be time for a HIP approach to > earlier band music might be just the ticket, for those interested in > that kind of thing, but that will always be a small minority. Seems like a given to me. It could make programming easier, too, though scheduling of rehearsals would be harder. That is, make up a performance from different groups of players in different ensembles -- with less music for some of the players, perhaps the groups overall could play harder music prepared in a shorter time. That's the approach we take in the NYU Collegium, where hardly anyone performs in everything (well, I almost always do, but that's because I'm a continuo and viol player both). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 9:29 PM -0400 8/24/07, David W. Fenton wrote: Now, in college-level bands, surely the tenor sax majors and many of the altos also double on soprano, so I don't see how that would be incredibly difficult to come by one player for it (just as it's not hard to put a Bb Clarinet player on Eb -- nobody can make Eb Clarinet sound good :). What, we've run out of viola jokes?!! But that's not necessarily true. The facts that all clarinets are fingered the same and that their music is transposed to be read the same does not mean that the instruments of the extended clarinet family are all the same. It stands to reason that they are not, and therefore that a potential player has to spend time learning this "new" instrument. Which is exactly what happens in our wind ensemble, because our clarinet professor insists on it. It's considered prestigious to be the person selected to play the Eb soprano. Same thing is true for the alto, bass, and lower clarinets. Takes practice. And I suspect that the orchestral players who play Eb soprano on such things as "Symphonie Fantastique" might take offense. Of course ANY clarinet in any key has to be well made and well tuned, and schools do not tend to buy the most expensive professional instruments. So it's not a matter of adding instruments to the basic ensemble but of omitting instruments that are not used in the particular piece, and substituting the closest reasonable instruments when the originals are obsolete. Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying, and of course it's possible to delete instruments from a given ensemble, but you'd have to have a conductor who believes in doing so, and players who accept that it is a good idea to have a few minutes off. Aaron's suggestion that it might be time for a HIP approach to earlier band music might be just the ticket, for those interested in that kind of thing, but that will always be a small minority. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On 24 Aug 2007 at 20:43, John Howell wrote: > As to adapting instrumentation to the music, I tried to point out that > most bands do not and cannot, with the possible exceptions of the wind > ensembles at large music schools or bands that consider themselves > truly professional. And of course among that handful of professional > bands we have to include the premier bands in each of the military > services, and they cannot blithely add instruments to order because > the players must be in the military and must be assigned to specific > bands and have their own line in the Table of Organization. But that isn't the issue -- it's not adding odd instruments at all. There's nothing odd about the instrumentation of the Fulton pieces, except that we now use different transpositions and very closely related instruments (with the exception of cornets, which I would consider a hugely different instrument because of the completely different bore, which has huge consequences for both tone, articulation and agility). It's not a matter of needing to add a BBb contrabass clarinet or a bass sax, but a matter of using a C picc instead of Db, F horns instead of Db and so forth. Now, in college-level bands, surely the tenor sax majors and many of the altos also double on soprano, so I don't see how that would be incredibly difficult to come by one player for it (just as it's not hard to put a Bb Clarinet player on Eb -- nobody can make Eb Clarinet sound good :). So it's not a matter of adding instruments to the basic ensemble but of omitting instruments that are not used in the particular piece, and substituting the closest reasonable instruments when the originals are obsolete. That's what I don't see as happening, whereas these groups surely have the resources to do so. > And by the way, I agree with you that the best college wind ensembles > should be included at the professional level, but only because there > are so few truly professional wind ensemble, especially touring > ensembles in existence today. Again, there's a world of difference > between the band world and the orchestra world. I see wind ensemble as a different world, chamber music-oriented (one on a part, like an orchestral wind section), instead of massed instruments, so that's completely different -- they are always ad hoc in instrumentation, more or less. But I'm asking about something else entirely. Maybe I'm not explaining it well? Of course, I certainly believe that all new editions of these old works should include both the original parts and all the alternates that make it playable by standard modern bands. In the case of the Fulton, I just don't see any severe adaptation necessary (other than the cornet/trumpet thing, which is endemic in almost all historical band music, even that which remains in the repertory, like Sousa), and surely there's a host of pieces for which that is the case. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On 24 Aug 2007 at 19:26, Raymond Horton wrote: > I'll go out on a limb and say that _generally_ Fulton, Sousa, and > modern university and pro bands play/played pieces like marches with > whomever they have/had present at the time. The instrumentation > varied for Sousa, certainly, over the years, and I imagine he did > much re-scoring of even his more serious works and transcriptions to > suit his changing band, rather than send players off-stage or see > them sit idle. > > This is the blessing and curse of the bands, as we have been > discussing. I'm very, very well aware of it, having spent 15 years as assistant music director of the Illinois Premier Boys State Band. As you can well imagine, when you have all boys, you lack certain instruments. We were lucky to have 3 clarinets, or even one flute, but we had thousands of trumpets and trombones and drummers. Sometimes we had 1 clarinet, 6 alto saxes, 3 tenor saxes, 2 horns, 25 trumpets, 8 trombones, 2 baritones, 1 euphonium, 1 tube, 12 drummers. Try to make *that* sound good. I learned a lot about orchestrating for such ensembles (I was the de facto staff arranger -- learned to turn them out from scratch in about 4 hours of work, including copying parts, then rewriting and recopying parts after the first rehearsal to fix what I got wrong; it was a *great* learning experience). But that was a different kind of situation than pro-level groups (which for me includes the top-level university bands). I wish more of those organizations would take a historical approach to older music -- it would certainly provide much more variety of texture and sound on concerts. And I think it would be good for talented school bands to do the same thing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 11:15 PM -0400 8/23/07, Raymond Horton wrote: Missing the Eb soprano cornet is a problem for modern band with these older works, but with more woodwinds in the modern band this can often suffice. I've been working a lot with British-style brass bands, lately, and the Eb soprano cornets are certainly the woodwinds of those groups. Actually I just got the Fall-Winter catalog for The WoodWind & Brasswind, and took a moment to look through the trumpet-cornet-flugelhorn pages. Yes, they list many more pages of trumpets, both Bb and specialty keys, but there are several pages of cornets and several choices of Eb soprano cornets, including Schilke, which ain't chopped liver! The problem is actually that the trumpet has become the all-purpose instrument, needed for orchestral work, jazz band work, and marching band work. The cornet, especially one played with the proper mouthpiece and technique, is a vanishing voice out of choice, and not because instruments are not available. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 6:03 PM -0400 8/24/07, David W. Fenton wrote: Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the music they are playing? No, I don't think you're misinterpreting at all. I've commented that there is really no standard instrumentation for concert band or wind ensemble, but another way of saying almost the same thing is that there are too many standard instrumentations! In the instrument lists you quoted and suggested, the one glaring omission is a saxophone section. And in the old pieces I've examined so far, some have saxes, some don't, and for those that do you find the soprano more often than 1st and 2nd altos. As to adapting instrumentation to the music, I tried to point out that most bands do not and cannot, with the possible exceptions of the wind ensembles at large music schools or bands that consider themselves truly professional. And of course among that handful of professional bands we have to include the premier bands in each of the military services, and they cannot blithely add instruments to order because the players must be in the military and must be assigned to specific bands and have their own line in the Table of Organization. And by the way, I agree with you that the best college wind ensembles should be included at the professional level, but only because there are so few truly professional wind ensemble, especially touring ensembles in existence today. Again, there's a world of difference between the band world and the orchestra world. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
A couple of observations. One - on those recordings, if you check the later set of recordings, (the last two sets were done in the last two weeks) you'll see the instrumentation shift a bit, as different players become available, I suppose (a few more clarinets, mainly).This type of instrumentation, on these Fulton recordings, is nearly the minimum required. It is a lot of fun to play in a group like that. I'm surprised by large number (4) of trombones, actually. You are exactly right, to a point. When playing works of the early and mid-nineteenth century, historical modern performances can and should try to reproduce the instrumentation of the time, and some colleges and whatever pro performances occur, will do that, time to time. But the tradition of band music, (the changing personnel on these recordings even gives us a hint), is pretty much 'whoever shows up gets to play', so it is also quite 'authentic' to play these marches and later works with small groups, large groups, or whatever is around, and try to make the balance work with whatever you have. I'll go out on a limb and say that _generally_ Fulton, Sousa, and modern university and pro bands play/played pieces like marches with whomever they have/had present at the time. The instrumentation varied for Sousa, certainly, over the years, and I imagine he did much re-scoring of even his more serious works and transcriptions to suit his changing band, rather than send players off-stage or see them sit idle. This is the blessing and curse of the bands, as we have been discussing. Raymond Horton David W. Fenton wrote: On 24 Aug 2007 at 16:33, Daniel Wolf wrote: I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note? If someone has articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. I'll let the band folks answer the question you asked, but something similar did occur to me, stemming from the discussion of instrumentation on the list last night that followed my post. I was impressed with the *sound* of the music, based on the sightread recordings, which are really quite delightful. Their instrumentation is listed on the recording page: 1 Db Piccolo 1 Eb Clarinet 6 Bb Clarinet 1 Eb Cornet 4 Bb Cornet 4 Eb Horn 4 Trombone 1 Euphonium 1 Tuba 3 Percussion ...and that is definitely an odd one, from *my* experience with band music (I was librarian for my high school band and had to prepare lots of old music for performance by our modern band instrumentation, which meant adapting parts with clefs and key signatures, mostly, though, the horn players had to learn to transpose at sight when there were on Eb horn parts). I am mostly unfamiliar with the European and British band traditions, and the recordings I heard of this group sounded notably *Italian* to me. I was most surprised at the small number cornets, and noted that in some of the recordings, clarinets on descant parts completely covered up melody lines in the lower range of the cornet parts. Obviously, balances are going to be hard to get right in a sightreading session, but this was a very common texture for trios, for instance, with descant clarinets and cornet in a relatively low range (the first octave above middle C). It seemed that perhaps there were too many clarinets relative to the cornets. On the other hand, it could very well have been a artifact of microphone placement -- you can't really tell what live balances sound like from an MP3! In any event, what exact tradition is that instrumentation in? It's not at all the same as what I saw in all the marches that my high school band played (usually in original editions), though I guess they were mostly later (Sousa, Fillmore, etc.) and reflected a different tradition. I think efforts should be made by modern performers to play this repertory as close as possible to the original instrumentation. That would mean: 1 Db Piccolo - C Piccolo 1 Eb Clarinet 6 Bb Clarinet 1 Eb Cornet - ? 4 Bb Cornet - Trumpets if you don't have cornets 4 Eb Horn - F Horn 4 Trombone 1 Euphonium 1 Tuba 3 Percussion Naturally, replacing cornets with trumpets is a *major* change in sound, and F Horns are very different from Eb horns. And, yes, Db picc is very different from C, but in a band texture, not so much that it would matter a lot compared to simply not performing it. Performing the original instrumentation with the nearest corresponding instruments seems to me to be better than wholesale adding a bunch of parts and lines that don't exist in the original. Of course, if you'r
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Very often in school bands there's an unspoken requirement that everyone be playing most of the time to keep them occupied. When I wrote my first wind ensemble piece my intent was NOT to write yet another John Cacavas-type excursion into razzle-dazzle, I was roundly criticized for not having everyone playing all the time. Can't please everyone. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On 24 Aug 2007 at 16:33, Daniel Wolf wrote: > I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is > there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to > meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? > Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting > certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or > disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note? If someone has > articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation, > I'd certainly be interested in reading it. I'll let the band folks answer the question you asked, but something similar did occur to me, stemming from the discussion of instrumentation on the list last night that followed my post. I was impressed with the *sound* of the music, based on the sightread recordings, which are really quite delightful. Their instrumentation is listed on the recording page: 1 Db Piccolo 1 Eb Clarinet 6 Bb Clarinet 1 Eb Cornet 4 Bb Cornet 4 Eb Horn 4 Trombone 1 Euphonium 1 Tuba 3 Percussion ...and that is definitely an odd one, from *my* experience with band music (I was librarian for my high school band and had to prepare lots of old music for performance by our modern band instrumentation, which meant adapting parts with clefs and key signatures, mostly, though, the horn players had to learn to transpose at sight when there were on Eb horn parts). I am mostly unfamiliar with the European and British band traditions, and the recordings I heard of this group sounded notably *Italian* to me. I was most surprised at the small number cornets, and noted that in some of the recordings, clarinets on descant parts completely covered up melody lines in the lower range of the cornet parts. Obviously, balances are going to be hard to get right in a sightreading session, but this was a very common texture for trios, for instance, with descant clarinets and cornet in a relatively low range (the first octave above middle C). It seemed that perhaps there were too many clarinets relative to the cornets. On the other hand, it could very well have been a artifact of microphone placement -- you can't really tell what live balances sound like from an MP3! In any event, what exact tradition is that instrumentation in? It's not at all the same as what I saw in all the marches that my high school band played (usually in original editions), though I guess they were mostly later (Sousa, Fillmore, etc.) and reflected a different tradition. I think efforts should be made by modern performers to play this repertory as close as possible to the original instrumentation. That would mean: 1 Db Piccolo - C Piccolo 1 Eb Clarinet 6 Bb Clarinet 1 Eb Cornet - ? 4 Bb Cornet - Trumpets if you don't have cornets 4 Eb Horn - F Horn 4 Trombone 1 Euphonium 1 Tuba 3 Percussion Naturally, replacing cornets with trumpets is a *major* change in sound, and F Horns are very different from Eb horns. And, yes, Db picc is very different from C, but in a band texture, not so much that it would matter a lot compared to simply not performing it. Performing the original instrumentation with the nearest corresponding instruments seems to me to be better than wholesale adding a bunch of parts and lines that don't exist in the original. Of course, if you're using this music in school band (and it's perfectly suitable for it, indeed, I would say quite excellent educationally in terms of musical style and balance of technical/rhythmic challenges), you'd need to adapt so that everyone has something to play. But to me, for more professional-level bands (which to me includes university bands), I think I'd go with an approach similar to modern orchestras, which, for instance, cut their string sections for Mozart in comparison to Brahms. But that doesn't seem to be often done. The difference here is one of what your editions provides and what each individual ensemble with choose to perform with. I would think the edition should include all the parts for a modern band, which would allow any organization to play it, but that the more advanced groups should choose to replicate the original instrumentation as closely as possible. This would mean identifying the added parts in some way (probably in the score would suffice). Am I misinterpreting the discussion here? Is my position basically what all y'all were advocating? Or do even university-level and professional bands seldom/never adapt their instrumentation to the music they are playing? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 24, 2007, at 4:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available). Good for you! I know that I shouldn't be so cavalier about changing arrangements, but if THEY are going to be so lackadaisical, then I will just follow suit. Obviously, I am not going to be substituting parts in Stravinsky's Octet (I'll just have to wait to have the players) but there is SO much overdone stuff out there... christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
And, as one who can be excessively finicky about which instrument plays what, I swore a long time ago that the word "band" would never appear on any of my title pages precisely because of its imprecise meaning. It's interesting that MMB Music wrote "Wind Ensemble" on my recently published Haydn overture transcription (which, btw, includes a specially transposed oboe part for an obbligato clarinet to be used if no oboe is available). Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Marching was only an occasional, necessary evil for these guys. Generally it was two to three concerts a day, in different locations. We are talking about the biggest name in popular music of his day. In those decades - the peak year being 1910, there were hundreds of professional bands touring the country. Sousa was only the most well-known, followed closely by Arthur Pryor, his former Assistant Conductor and trombone soloist. When one of these bands came in, it was like the Elvis coming to town. RBH Christopher Smith wrote: On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, [snip] The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse! I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at least twice as heavy. Great discussion, guys! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Ray- Who's doing your double bell?? Jim From: Raymond Horton Sent: Fri 24-Aug-07 14:18 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth noting. All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and one bass clarinet. Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes. The use of contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. The sax section varied from four to eight players. Trumpets and cornets were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two trumpet to four cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower cornet parts were taken by flugelhorns. Always four horns, and four trombones to two (or later) one euphonium. Sousa only had upright-bell sousaphones, and the earlier bands used a mixture of tubas and sousaphone, while the later bands used sousaphones exclusively. Always three percussionists. The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale This segregation of cornets and trumpet _parts_, (although the instruments were totally mixed up half and half) was still the norm in bands when I was a lad, but is uncommon now, I suppose. In my first formative year playing in a good high school band (1965-66), I played next to the first "trumpet," who was the second best player in the section and sat on the opposite end of the section from the first "cornet." Both were playing the wrong instruments, though. A year later, the first "trumpet" had advanced to first "cornet", but he had traded his cornet in for a new trumpet. Whenever bands play works with both cornet and trumpet parts, all parts are played, of course, but there are not distinct sections, and the only kids with cornets are the ones who got them out of their granddad's attics. I don't really know what the standard instrumentation for a new band piece is, I suppose 3 or 4 parts for "cornets/trumpets." In the one large work I wrote for concert band (my master's thesis) back in '75 I used three cornet and two trumpet parts - with the trumpet parts being intended for a smaller section or one on a part. I found it very useful. On another subject you bring up - the low WWs, that large band I played in for a year in the 8th grade in 65-66 had the most amazing low reed section: BBb and Eb contrabass clarinets (that's the name I'm sticking to for the latter no matter what's done to me), four bass clarinets, bass sax, one or two bari sax, all complimenting a section of six tubas. We played a nice arrangement of J.S. Bach's _Fantasia_ in G that started with a bass low G - a sound I'll never forget. Do you have any idea if the tuba-sousaphone mixture was intentional, and was the change to all sousaphones intentional? I wonder if they actually sounded better than the other tubas available at the time? I am in the process of having a _removable_ double bell added to one of my euphoniums, but I haven't heard from the guy doing it for months (he was so confident at the start!). I really should email him... Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth noting. All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and one bass clarinet. Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes. The use of contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. The sax section varied from four to eight players. Trumpets and cornets were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two trumpet to four cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower cornet parts were taken by flugelhorns. Always four horns, and four trombones to two (or later) one euphonium. Sousa only had upright-bell sousaphones, and the earlier bands used a mixture of tubas and sousaphone, while the later bands used sousaphones exclusively. Always three percussionists. The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale This segregation of cornets and trumpet _parts_, (although the instruments were totally mixed up half and half) was still the norm in bands when I was a lad, but is uncommon now, I suppose. In my first formative year playing in a good high school band (1965-66), I played next to the first "trumpet," who was the second best player in the section and sat on the opposite end of the section from the first "cornet." Both were playing the wrong instruments, though. A year later, the first "trumpet" had advanced to first "cornet", but he had traded his cornet in for a new trumpet. Whenever bands play works with both cornet and trumpet parts, all parts are played, of course, but there are not distinct sections, and the only kids with cornets are the ones who got them out of their granddad's attics. I don't really know what the standard instrumentation for a new band piece is, I suppose 3 or 4 parts for "cornets/trumpets." In the one large work I wrote for concert band (my master's thesis) back in '75 I used three cornet and two trumpet parts - with the trumpet parts being intended for a smaller section or one on a part. I found it very useful. On another subject you bring up - the low WWs, that large band I played in for a year in the 8th grade in 65-66 had the most amazing low reed section: BBb and Eb contrabass clarinets (that's the name I'm sticking to for the latter no matter what's done to me), four bass clarinets, bass sax, one or two bari sax, all complimenting a section of six tubas. We played a nice arrangement of J.S. Bach's _Fantasia_ in G that started with a bass low G - a sound I'll never forget. Do you have any idea if the tuba-sousaphone mixture was intentional, and was the change to all sousaphones intentional? I wonder if they actually sounded better than the other tubas available at the time? I am in the process of having a _removable_ double bell added to one of my euphoniums, but I haven't heard from the guy doing it for months (he was so confident at the start!). I really should email him... Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Ah, many thanks. Dean On Aug 23, 2007, at 7:37 PM, John Howell wrote: At 6:47 PM -0700 8/23/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Hey, John ... could you clue me in as to what site you visited to get the PDF's? Are they in score format, condensed, or what? I'm attempting to upgrade my bandstrating skills, and find that score study is an excellent way to do it, especially if a performance is available. North Royalton Community Band Digital Music Library Dana M. Bailey, Jr. Collection Music Committee Members Tom Pechnik, Senior Archivist; Mary Phillips; Wayne Dydo; Bill Park, Director 14713 Ridge Rd. North Royalton, OH 44133 www.nr-cb. They are scans of the original quickstep sized parts, no scores (never any published), and no audio clips at that particular website. Pretty good selection of pieces, many if not most from the Filmore Bros. Co. in Cincinnati. You can really see where Hal Leonard got the idea for the simplified marching band arrangements they were publishing 'way back in the early '50s: melody for C and Bb instruments; first harmony part for Bb instruments; second harmony part for Bb and Eb instruments; countermelody part for Bb instruments in different clefs; bass line with alternate key signatures for bari sax; and drums. Very solid, none of those chirping woodwind parts! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 4:33 PM +0200 8/24/07, Daniel Wolf wrote: I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note? If someone has articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. You've touched on a sore point, Daniel, and it is an important one. Fundamentally, there is no prescribed instrumentation for the concert band, in the sense that there is for the orchestra. And this forces band composers and arrangers into a situation where they may want certain specific tone colors, but cannot be assured of having those instruments and players available. Which means, in turn, that they must cross-cue important passages, or double them more thickly than they might want to, to make sure that the musical elements will be there even though the preferred tone color will not. This relates, in general, to the lower instruments in each section. Alto, tenor, and bari saxes are almost always available, but bass is not, nor is soprano. Bb clarinets abound, but one might not find an Eb soprano, Eb alto, Eb bass or BBb contrabass. One may want true bass trombone, but instead have only 3rd trombone. And one may want true cornets and flugelhorns, but will have only trumpets. And one may or may not have any oboes at all, more than one bassoon, and probably not English horn or contrabassoon. In the case of orchestras, the idea is to "play as scored," which means that if additional instruments are needed for a particular composition, the orchestra manager hires the additional players. Very few concert bands are in any position to do the same. The only exceptions are (a) those which consider themselves to be truly professional and WILL hire additional players; (b) University wind ensembles for which the school owns the more exotic instruments and can assign students to learn to play them; or (c) ensembles of fixed instrumentation, such as traditional brass bands. There are also traditions involved. Some bands use double bass, others do not. The USAF Band has long used cellos; most bands do not. Baritones and euphoniums are used interchangeably in the U.S., and the special sound of the cornet has all but disappeared. Of course one can always CHOOSE to omit certain instruments, as indeed orchestra composers can also do, but fundamentally band players want to be playing all the time on everything (as long as there are enough rests to rest the lips!). I'm sure that individual publishers have their own "standard" band instrumentations, but the problem is that none of them is truly a "standard." John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Hmm...very luxuriant! Such a wide selection of double reeds is quite a luxury in many bands nowadays (I remember only being able to write one each oboe and bassoon part when I wrote my HS band stuff). Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk > There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and > that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth > noting. All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The > Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and > one bass clarinet. Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he > discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes. The use of > contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited > to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. The > sax section varied from four to eight players. Trumpets and cornets > were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two trumpet to four > cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower cornet parts were > taken by flugelhorns. Always four horns, and four trombones to two (or > later) one euphonium. Sousa only had upright-bell sousaphones, and the > earlier bands used a mixture of tubas and sousaphone, while the later > bands used sousaphones exclusively. Always three percussionists. The > band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a > harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full > ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses. > > Daniel Wolf > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Don't forget Woody Allen marching with the cello in TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN... From: Christopher Smith Sent: Fri 24-Aug-07 11:37 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, [snip] The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse! I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at least twice as heavy. Great discussion, guys! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, [snip] The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, Heh, heh! My association of Sousa with marching bands made me spit my tea when the image of a marching harpist popped up in your discourse! I was already musing on marching bassoons, and how much I hate marching with a tuba, or the infinitely worse sousaphone, which is at least twice as heavy. Great discussion, guys! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 5:00 PM +0200 8/24/07, Daniel Wolf wrote: There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth noting. All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and one bass clarinet. What?!!! You mean that Meredith Willson's story about the 2nd bass clarinetist (in his book, "And There I Stood With My Piccolo") isn't true? And I must say that I have trouble picturing a band with 27 clarinets fitting in one of the typical gazebos of the day. The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses. One of the funniest musical sight-gags I've ever seen was with the Spike Jones band, with a harpist on a raised platform. As the curtain opened she was sitting there behind her harp, knitting a scarf. As the show went on she continued knitting but never played a single note, and by the end of the show the scarf was about 20 feet long!!! Oh well; I'm easily entertained. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote: I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note? If someone has articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. The rationale would be maximising sales; to make the arrangement playable for as many different bands as possible through doubling everything up the wazoo. If there is a lot of repertoire for a certain instrumentation, there is more likely to be a group formed to play that repertoire. After a twenty-year break, I am this semester starting to conduct the school's wind ensemble. I always did, and will probably continue to do, massage the arrangements somewhat, asking some instruments to tacet a doubled part, changing to one-to-a-part in some sections, and adding parts in where they are missing, need doubling, or would go better on a different instrument. Some arrangements require little or no adjustment, some (particularly, as you mention, the ones aimed an educational market) need it a lot, as they are overwritten and overdoubled all over the place to allow for missing and understaffed instruments, and for weak players on some parts. My own bands had and will have their own problems, and I will have to allow for those problems myself, which would have been impossible for every arranger to do, since they don't know my band. At least it is easier to tacet someone than to add in a part that is missing and uncued. Some schools make a distinction between massed bands (concert band) and wind ensemble (one to a part, not necessarily standardised instrumentation.) In my school we don't have enough players to make that distinction, but I will probably draw on repertoire from both camps, letting the unused players take a break, or go off and rehearse their smaller piece on their own. That's just my take on it, of course. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
As someone who writes a lot for band, I can say that a great deal of flexibility already exists. There is no prescribed standard. This works both for and against the composer: I can ask for just about anything (8 horns, bass sax, harp, electric bass), but I have also seen pieces with a more common instrumentation performed without critical instruments (no oboe, no Eb clar, whatever). -Carolyn Bremer On 8/24/07, Daniel Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is > there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet > some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? Might > there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain > instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional > doublings or playing cue note? If someone has articulated a case for a > particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be > interested in reading it. > > Daniel Wolf > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 9:17 AM -0500 8/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Think it's time for a HIP band movement? I'm impressed that anyone here has actually SEEN a d-flat piccolo. (And then there are Wagner's d-flat trumpets and horns (assuming that they were intended to be for real)) The use of Db piccolos AND Db flutes (I don't know about the brass instruments) arose from the firmly held (and spurious) belief that flutes were more comfortable in sharp keys (or, alternatively, that they were uncomfortable in flat keys). That wasn't even true for the 18th century 1-keyed flute, for which F, Bb, and Ab used cross fingerings, and CERTAINLY was never true of the Böhm flute, with natural scale fingering for F and Bb. And of course the 3rd sharp is the same fingering as the 3rd flat (assuming equal temperament). Because of the cross fingerings, I will stipulate that it may have been true FOR BEGINNERS, but not for professionals. In fact one of the goals of the 19th century conservatories was to force students past what was "easy" on their instruments and make sure that they could play equally well what was "difficult." But everyone and his orchestration teacher believed thoroughly in this urban legend, and I wouldn't be surprised to find it repeated in 20th century orchestration books. It ain't necessarily so! Oh, and there's already a sort of HIP orchestra movement, which takes into consideration the fact that, for example, the wind instruments for which Stravinsky wrote in Paris were not the same and did not sound the same as the instruments that are favored today. And of course there are reenactment bands using 19th century saxhorns, just as there are reenactments of Civil War battles. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
I have a general aesthetic question for people involved in bands. Is there a rationale beyond the pedagogical for wanting band scores to meet some prescribed contemporary and standardized instrumentation? Might there not be some legitimate musical reasons for omitting certain instruments or requiring others, or for allowing or disallowing optional doublings or playing cue note? If someone has articulated a case for a particular standard for band instrumentation, I'd certainly be interested in reading it. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
There is a great deal of continuity between Sousa's instrumentation and that of contemporary bands, but there are couple of features worth noting. All flutes doubled on piccolo. Two oboes, 2nd doubling EH. The Bb clarinet section was large (12-27 players), with only one alto and one bass clarinet. Earlier Sousa bands used Eb Clarinet, but he discontinued this in favor of adding more flutes. The use of contrabassoon (or, in one season, contrabass sarrusaphone) was limited to a few seasons and was doubled by the second (of two) bassoonists. The sax section varied from four to eight players. Trumpets and cornets were strongly segregated, not doubling, usually in a two trumpet to four cornet ratio, although in the earlier years the lower cornet parts were taken by flugelhorns. Always four horns, and four trombones to two (or later) one euphonium. Sousa only had upright-bell sousaphones, and the earlier bands used a mixture of tubas and sousaphone, while the later bands used sousaphones exclusively. Always three percussionists. The band membership also included a female vocalist, a violinist, and a harpist as soloists, with the harpist also a standard member of the full ensemble, seated front center between woodwinds and brasses. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Think it's time for a HIP band movement? I'm impressed that anyone here has actually SEEN a d-flat piccolo. (And then there are Wagner's d-flat trumpets and horns (assuming that they were intended to be for real)) Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Hmm...would've been interesting to hear Omar Khayyam set to music by Sousa (assuming, of course, that he could've gotten permission!). Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk > This band talk started me doing some surfing, which turned up this quote: > > > > > "A horse, a dog, a girl, a gun, and music on the side that is my > idea of heaven." > > - John Phillip Sousa > > > > > > It's undoubtedly a good thing that I go back to work next week. > > > RBH > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Just a comment on the subject of music from this period: there used to be (now lost) in our school music library, an LP of Sousa marches directed by some of his family descendants. It was remarkably light and clear, more transparently orchestrated and played than anything we hear now. It was a revelation to me and made me appreciate the grace of this music, as well as the effect of power we normally get from it. I'd love to hear that recording again, but it's been lost from here for years. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
This band talk started me doing some surfing, which turned up this quote: "A horse, a dog, a girl, a gun, and music on the side that is my idea of heaven." - John Phillip Sousa It's undoubtedly a good thing that I go back to work next week. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
John Howell wrote: The marches and "smears" I downloaded have a few more problems. ALWAYS Db piccolo, and sometimes no C flute parts. Sometimes oboe, sometimes not, and bassoons likewise. Sometimes no saxes, but other times saxes including soprano (and never 1st and 2nd alto). And the brass parts often seem to reflect a saxhorn band plus trombones, or perhaps the English/European brass band background: cornets rather than trumpets, including Eb cornet in many cases; Eb altos; Bb tenors, PLUS Bb baritones, PLUS 2 trombones sometimes in treble clef and sometimes in bass. And never, EVER anything like a full score. Not even a condensed score. Just a Solo Cornet part with a few cues in it. Don't get me wrong; transcribing is possible and I plan to work on some, but I'm working from PDFs of scans of the original quickstep sized parts, and sometimes the scans are ambiguous about things like ledger lines. The first thing I'll have to do is to reconstruct a full score of the original version, just to make sure I can see everything that's happening and how the doublings are balanced. Of course I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I hate the concept of just borrowing lines from existing parts and pasting them into the parts I'm adding, but sometimes that's the only thing you can do and remain true to the original. When I add String Paks to holliday band arrangements, on the other hand, I always try to add some new sweetening that is NOT in the original. Fun, though! John I see, yes, you do have more problems, as you are working with earlier instrumentations which are more like brass band plus treble reeds. No flute parts - interesting!And I always thought the convention of Db picc with C flute was odd. [When I played rodeos, in my late teens (ca. 1972), which included the fastest "gallops" (marches played one beat to a bar) I've ever had to play, the picc player would keep both a C and Db picc on his lap.] One thing - it seems to me that in _all_ the old American band music I have ever seen the parts for "Bb tenors 1&2" are identical to "trombones 1&2" except for clef. Is the music you are working with any exception? This is certainly not true in the British brass band tradition, of course (where the equivalent Bb instruments are called baritones, anyway). Missing the Eb soprano cornet is a problem for modern band with these older works, but with more woodwinds in the modern band this can often suffice. I've been working a lot with British-style brass bands, lately, and the Eb soprano cornets are certainly the woodwinds of those groups. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 6:47 PM -0700 8/23/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Hey, John ... could you clue me in as to what site you visited to get the PDF's? Are they in score format, condensed, or what? I'm attempting to upgrade my bandstrating skills, and find that score study is an excellent way to do it, especially if a performance is available. North Royalton Community Band Digital Music Library Dana M. Bailey, Jr. Collection Music Committee Members Tom Pechnik, Senior Archivist; Mary Phillips; Wayne Dydo; Bill Park, Director 14713 Ridge Rd. North Royalton, OH 44133 www.nr-cb. They are scans of the original quickstep sized parts, no scores (never any published), and no audio clips at that particular website. Pretty good selection of pieces, many if not most from the Filmore Bros. Co. in Cincinnati. You can really see where Hal Leonard got the idea for the simplified marching band arrangements they were publishing 'way back in the early '50s: melody for C and Bb instruments; first harmony part for Bb instruments; second harmony part for Bb and Eb instruments; countermelody part for Bb instruments in different clefs; bass line with alternate key signatures for bari sax; and drums. Very solid, none of those chirping woodwind parts! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 10:00 PM -0400 8/23/07, Raymond Horton wrote: The instrumentation difference is not quite as major as you make it seem, really. Just look at this list from David's link: --- * Full Score * (4) C Flute + opt Pic * (1) Eb Clarinet * (3) 1'st Bb Clarinets * (3) 2'nd Bb Clarinets * (3) 3'rd Bb Clarinets * (1) Bb Bass Clarinet* * (2) Bassoon* * (2) 1'st Eb Alto Sax * (2) 2'nd Eb Alto Sax * (1) Tenor Sax* (1) Baritone Sax* * (2) Solo Cornet** * (2) 1'st Trumpet * (2) 2'nd Trumpet * (2) 1'st-2'nd Horn in F * (2) 3'rd-4'th Horn in F * (2) 1'st Trombone * (2) 2'nd Trombone * (1) BC Baritone Horn * (1) TC Baritone Horn* (2) Tuba * (1) Snare Drum* (2) Bass Drum & Cymbals. * = optional parts not included in original edition. ** = solo here just indicates the melody. It can and should be doubled. --- The re-editing in this case consisted of adding parts for Bass Clarinet, Bassoons, and Bar. Sax. Simple enough - most of that would come from the tuba part or an upper octave bass line part (probably both in the bassoons). Earlier works for wind groups generally did not have sax parts, so more work (and more editorial presumption) would be needed in those cases. The marches and "smears" I downloaded have a few more problems. ALWAYS Db piccolo, and sometimes no C flute parts. Sometimes oboe, sometimes not, and bassoons likewise. Sometimes no saxes, but other times saxes including soprano (and never 1st and 2nd alto). And the brass parts often seem to reflect a saxhorn band plus trombones, or perhaps the English/European brass band background: cornets rather than trumpets, including Eb cornet in many cases; Eb altos; Bb tenors, PLUS Bb baritones, PLUS 2 trombones sometimes in treble clef and sometimes in bass. And never, EVER anything like a full score. Not even a condensed score. Just a Solo Cornet part with a few cues in it. Don't get me wrong; transcribing is possible and I plan to work on some, but I'm working from PDFs of scans of the original quickstep sized parts, and sometimes the scans are ambiguous about things like ledger lines. The first thing I'll have to do is to reconstruct a full score of the original version, just to make sure I can see everything that's happening and how the doublings are balanced. Of course I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I hate the concept of just borrowing lines from existing parts and pasting them into the parts I'm adding, but sometimes that's the only thing you can do and remain true to the original. When I add String Paks to holliday band arrangements, on the other hand, I always try to add some new sweetening that is NOT in the original. Fun, though! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
David W. Fenton wrote: I just became aware of this: http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece. Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, that's *fabulous*! Thanks for the link! Quite interesting! There is stuff like this happening around. Take a look at this, on "Custer's last Band": http://www.usd.edu/smm/Vinatierimusic.html Steve Charpié, who was in charge of this, was around Louisville for a time after he did this (played some extra with the LO), and I bought a copy of the CD from him. We spoke about trying to make some of the music available for modern ensembles. He seemed pretty exhausted with the project, but I wasn't - I had an idea of taking the Finale files he had prepared for the small group from the CD, go back to his photocopies of the Vinatieri MS's, and publish something both scholarly and playable, (probably for modern brass band as the closest thing to Vinatieri's ensemble). But we never got past the talking on the tour bus stage before he left town for good. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
Hey, John ... could you clue me in as to what site you visited to get the PDF's? Are they in score format, condensed, or what? I'm attempting to upgrade my bandstrating skills, and find that score study is an excellent way to do it, especially if a performance is available. Thanks, Dean On Aug 23, 2007, at 6:36 PM, John Howell wrote: At 9:17 PM -0400 8/23/07, David W. Fenton wrote: I just became aware of this: http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece. Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, that's *fabulous*! I wouldn't say "lots," but yes, it's a growing trend, and in almost every case a labor of love for the folks who organize the sites. This one was new to me. There is a Sousa Project somewhere (I may have it bookmarked) that I don't think is completely limited to Sousa's music (which went far beyond just the 10 best-known marches). And I recently downloaded several pieces as PDFs from yet another site. Having the recorded demos is fabulous, but those of us involved in bands are more concerned with being able to get the music so we can play them! The problem is that this turn-of-the-century repertoire was written for bands with one kind of instrumentation, and the pieces really have to be totally re-edited for the instrumentation of a modern band. That takes time. It looks as if these Fulton pieces are being reedited slowly and being made available on the website, and you can tell how much a labor of love it is when they are selling for only $20 plus P&H! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
John Howell wrote: At 9:17 PM -0400 8/23/07, David W. Fenton wrote: I just became aware of this: http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece. Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, that's *fabulous*! I wouldn't say "lots," but yes, it's a growing trend, and in almost every case a labor of love for the folks who organize the sites. This one was new to me. There is a Sousa Project somewhere (I may have it bookmarked) that I don't think is completely limited to Sousa's music (which went far beyond just the 10 best-known marches). And I recently downloaded several pieces as PDFs from yet another site. Having the recorded demos is fabulous, but those of us involved in bands are more concerned with being able to get the music so we can play them! The problem is that this turn-of-the-century repertoire was written for bands with one kind of instrumentation, and the pieces really have to be totally re-edited for the instrumentation of a modern band. That takes time. It looks as if these Fulton pieces are being reedited slowly and being made available on the website, and you can tell how much a labor of love it is when they are selling for only $20 plus P&H! John The instrumentation difference is not quite as major as you make it seem, really. Just look at this list from David's link: --- * Full Score * (4) C Flute + opt Pic * (1) Eb Clarinet * (3) 1'st Bb Clarinets * (3) 2'nd Bb Clarinets * (3) 3'rd Bb Clarinets * (1) Bb Bass Clarinet* * (2) Bassoon* * (2) 1'st Eb Alto Sax * (2) 2'nd Eb Alto Sax * (1) Tenor Sax * (1) Baritone Sax* * (2) Solo Cornet** * (2) 1'st Trumpet * (2) 2'nd Trumpet * (2) 1'st-2'nd Horn in F * (2) 3'rd-4'th Horn in F * (2) 1'st Trombone * (2) 2'nd Trombone * (1) BC Baritone Horn * (1) TC Baritone Horn * (2) Tuba * (1) Snare Drum * (2) Bass Drum & Cymbals. * = optional parts not included in original edition. ** = solo here just indicates the melody. It can and should be doubled. --- The re-editing in this case consisted of adding parts for Bass Clarinet, Bassoons, and Bar. Sax. Simple enough - most of that would come from the tuba part or an upper octave bass line part (probably both in the bassoons). Earlier works for wind groups generally did not have sax parts, so more work (and more editorial presumption) would be needed in those cases. The editor could have gone farther to match modern band standards, if he had wanted - there is no oboe part listed, for example, and that would have done no harm. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
At 9:17 PM -0400 8/23/07, David W. Fenton wrote: I just became aware of this: http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece. Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, that's *fabulous*! I wouldn't say "lots," but yes, it's a growing trend, and in almost every case a labor of love for the folks who organize the sites. This one was new to me. There is a Sousa Project somewhere (I may have it bookmarked) that I don't think is completely limited to Sousa's music (which went far beyond just the 10 best-known marches). And I recently downloaded several pieces as PDFs from yet another site. Having the recorded demos is fabulous, but those of us involved in bands are more concerned with being able to get the music so we can play them! The problem is that this turn-of-the-century repertoire was written for bands with one kind of instrumentation, and the pieces really have to be totally re-edited for the instrumentation of a modern band. That takes time. It looks as if these Fulton pieces are being reedited slowly and being made available on the website, and you can tell how much a labor of love it is when they are selling for only $20 plus P&H! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Turn-of-the-century Band Music
I just became aware of this: http://www.forgottenamericanmusic.com/new_fulton_band2.htm And I think the music is quite delightful. And, despite certain infelicities, the recordings are quite listenable, even though they were accomplished with a single sight-reading session for each piece. Band folks: is there lots of this kind of stuff going on? If so, that's *fabulous*! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
