Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, August 21, 2007 5:21 pm, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > So if you don't deal with them, you'd just say "we don't run on PHP > 6". > Is it better than saying "we run on PHP 6 only with that specific > setting"? Yes, it is better, imho. -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, August 21, 2007 1:22 am, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > Andi Gutmans wrote: >> Before we continue this discussion I think there are a couple of >> things >> which would be useful data points: >> a) What is the performance difference between an implicit Unicode >> app >> and non-Unicode. If we have 3-4 apps ported over to >> Unicode_semantics=on I also seem to recall that the "get rid of camp" was pushing for reasons of maintainability rather than performance... Which is not to say that horrible performance either way wouldn't be quite useful to one camp or the other, but it's kind of an irrelevant experiment for maintainability. For those who think it's easier to have PHP 6 and PHP 6--, could you explain how that's different in real-world setup from PHP 6 and PHP 5 instead? It's not like you can just flip the switch mid-script or even per-dir. So you're kind of stuck with two pools of servers, no? You only save a "./configure --with-dir=/foo; make; make install;" afaict... Am I being stoopid again? I honestly thought this had been resolved to "get rid of it"... [shrug] -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Why can't the unicode switch be turn on/off by the application when needed? Perhaps have an on/off/auto setting where auto meaning it'll remain off unless the application explicitly asks for it. Because it's very hard to implement since we'd have to keep 2 copies of all symbol tables. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Hi Andi, Am 21.08.2007 um 21:32 schrieb Andi Gutmans: If there's an overwhelming support for removing the switch then I guess that's where it is. I still think it's a mistake and we are risking a big split in the user base going forward but time will tell. Long term PHP may not recover from that split unless we truly manage to help the most popular PHP applications to make the leap. They have been some of the biggest drivers behind PHP adoption, probably just as much as the technology itself. FWIW, I agree. We at TYPO3 will switch to PHP6 / Unicode-only in the near future. And that means a few 100.000 of PHP developers are affected by this decision. At the same time we will maintain our current branch of TYPO3 which will only run with PHP5. In our opinion if someone wants PHP6, he must upgrade to the TYPO3 5.0. If he needs TYPO3 4.x, he's got to be satisfied with PHP 5. robert PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Why can't the unicode switch be turn on/off by the application when needed? Perhaps have an on/off/auto setting where auto meaning it'll remain off unless the application explicitly asks for it. On 8/21/07, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Andi, > > Is there a guide somewhere for those who are PHP developers, not C > developers, > who would want to try existing code under PHP 6 but don't know all the ins > and outs of the new unicode system? It sounds like there's 3-4 unicode > switches in php.ini, but maybe I'm missing some and I'm sure I don't fully > understand what they're all supposed to do. > > I mean a single-sourced guide along the lines of: > > - Get PHP-free system. > > - Download this file: > > - Untar, run make install. > > - Do X to get the mysql(i) driver in there too (since more apps use that > than > PDO right now). > > - Tour of the new php.ini switches to play with and what they mean/do: > > - Try running your app. Known places where there may be issues: > (Johannes' > earlier post is a great starting point) > > - Please direct reports on your successes and what broke to: > > A "PHP 6 testers' instruction manual" would probably make it a lot easier > to > be a PHP 6 tester. :-) > > On Tuesday 21 August 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > If there's an overwhelming support for removing the switch then I guess > > that's where it is. I still think it's a mistake and we are risking a > > big split in the user base going forward but time will tell. Long term > > PHP may not recover from that split unless we truly manage to help the > > most popular PHP applications to make the leap. They have been some of > > the biggest drivers behind PHP adoption, probably just as much as the > > technology itself. > > > > The burden of maintenance will definitely be higher. Right now we have > > to identify what features we think need back porting to PHP 5.3 which in > > my opinion looses a lot of good energy which could go into futures but > > that's where we're at. The PHP 5 user-base is strong, and growing and > > will require a lot of these features. > > > > I still think that the community and internals@ should still invest > > significantly in making migration as easy as possible and making clear > > what the performance attributes are. As I said, I'll be more than happy > > to pitch in when the time comes in running benchmarks and trying to > > figure out if a good migration methodology/scripts can be done. There > > are also some backporting of features which may make it easier for > > people to do a slower migration like (binary) cast (would be a no-op) > > and some other things. Still need to think about this further but there > > may be some things that can help. > > > > > > Andi > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:26 AM > > > To: Andi Gutmans > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; internals@lists.php.net > > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP > > > > 6? > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Ok, so I think its becoming clear that BC is not the main issue we > > > > will > > > > > be addressing with the unicode switch. I know Zeev's mantra that BC is > > > not binary, but from the people that have posted feedback on the topic > > > from actual experience it seems that making code work on PHP5 (and > > > > even > > > > > PHP4) as well as PHP6 is possible with a bit of work, but without a > > > rewrite. > > > > > > So at this point the main argument can only resolve around > > > > performance. > > > > > So the question is how much performance does a user gain by turning of > > > unicode in PHP6. We might be able to figure this out without porting > > > > an > > > > > actual application. Maybe with a few synthetic benchmarks, along with > > > some code analysis (maybe for 3 different categories of applications: > > > data processing intensive, web blog, database heavy application)) of > > > how > > > often particularily slow functions are called in an average > > > application, > > > we could extrapolate a ball park figure of what kind of slow down to > > > expect. > > > > > > regards, > > > Lukas > > > -- > Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > possession > of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- > Thomas > Jefferson > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Thank you, David Branco (Neoelite Web Consultant) http://www.NeoeliteUSA.com
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Andi, Is there a guide somewhere for those who are PHP developers, not C developers, who would want to try existing code under PHP 6 but don't know all the ins and outs of the new unicode system? It sounds like there's 3-4 unicode switches in php.ini, but maybe I'm missing some and I'm sure I don't fully understand what they're all supposed to do. I mean a single-sourced guide along the lines of: - Get PHP-free system. - Download this file: - Untar, run make install. - Do X to get the mysql(i) driver in there too (since more apps use that than PDO right now). - Tour of the new php.ini switches to play with and what they mean/do: - Try running your app. Known places where there may be issues: (Johannes' earlier post is a great starting point) - Please direct reports on your successes and what broke to: A "PHP 6 testers' instruction manual" would probably make it a lot easier to be a PHP 6 tester. :-) On Tuesday 21 August 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > If there's an overwhelming support for removing the switch then I guess > that's where it is. I still think it's a mistake and we are risking a > big split in the user base going forward but time will tell. Long term > PHP may not recover from that split unless we truly manage to help the > most popular PHP applications to make the leap. They have been some of > the biggest drivers behind PHP adoption, probably just as much as the > technology itself. > > The burden of maintenance will definitely be higher. Right now we have > to identify what features we think need back porting to PHP 5.3 which in > my opinion looses a lot of good energy which could go into futures but > that's where we're at. The PHP 5 user-base is strong, and growing and > will require a lot of these features. > > I still think that the community and internals@ should still invest > significantly in making migration as easy as possible and making clear > what the performance attributes are. As I said, I'll be more than happy > to pitch in when the time comes in running benchmarks and trying to > figure out if a good migration methodology/scripts can be done. There > are also some backporting of features which may make it easier for > people to do a slower migration like (binary) cast (would be a no-op) > and some other things. Still need to think about this further but there > may be some things that can help. > > > Andi > > > -Original Message- > > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:26 AM > > To: Andi Gutmans > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; internals@lists.php.net > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP > > 6? > > > Hi, > > > > Ok, so I think its becoming clear that BC is not the main issue we > > will > > > be addressing with the unicode switch. I know Zeev's mantra that BC is > > not binary, but from the people that have posted feedback on the topic > > from actual experience it seems that making code work on PHP5 (and > > even > > > PHP4) as well as PHP6 is possible with a bit of work, but without a > > rewrite. > > > > So at this point the main argument can only resolve around > > performance. > > > So the question is how much performance does a user gain by turning of > > unicode in PHP6. We might be able to figure this out without porting > > an > > > actual application. Maybe with a few synthetic benchmarks, along with > > some code analysis (maybe for 3 different categories of applications: > > data processing intensive, web blog, database heavy application)) of > > how > > often particularily slow functions are called in an average > > application, > > we could extrapolate a ball park figure of what kind of slow down to > > expect. > > > > regards, > > Lukas -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
portable as possible. To create a portable application for PHP 6, you have to consider the two different unicode.semantics scenarios AND the possibility that the switch, for some reason, might be turned on or off at any time in the future. Even if you don't care about Unicode and/or have never heard about it, that is very important for you. I really don't see, however, how removing the switch is going to make your life easier. So, we'd have PHP 5 and PHP 6, and once you'd want to support both (you couldn't afford not supporting PHP 5 for many years from now - many still support PHP 4) you have exactly the same issues. So if you don't deal with them, you'd just say "we don't run on PHP 6". Is it better than saying "we run on PHP 6 only with that specific setting"? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
If there's an overwhelming support for removing the switch then I guess that's where it is. I still think it's a mistake and we are risking a big split in the user base going forward but time will tell. Long term PHP may not recover from that split unless we truly manage to help the most popular PHP applications to make the leap. They have been some of the biggest drivers behind PHP adoption, probably just as much as the technology itself. The burden of maintenance will definitely be higher. Right now we have to identify what features we think need back porting to PHP 5.3 which in my opinion looses a lot of good energy which could go into futures but that's where we're at. The PHP 5 user-base is strong, and growing and will require a lot of these features. I still think that the community and internals@ should still invest significantly in making migration as easy as possible and making clear what the performance attributes are. As I said, I'll be more than happy to pitch in when the time comes in running benchmarks and trying to figure out if a good migration methodology/scripts can be done. There are also some backporting of features which may make it easier for people to do a slower migration like (binary) cast (would be a no-op) and some other things. Still need to think about this further but there may be some things that can help. Andi > -Original Message- > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:26 AM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > Hi, > > Ok, so I think its becoming clear that BC is not the main issue we will > be addressing with the unicode switch. I know Zeev's mantra that BC is > not binary, but from the people that have posted feedback on the topic > from actual experience it seems that making code work on PHP5 (and even > PHP4) as well as PHP6 is possible with a bit of work, but without a > rewrite. > > So at this point the main argument can only resolve around performance. > So the question is how much performance does a user gain by turning of > unicode in PHP6. We might be able to figure this out without porting an > actual application. Maybe with a few synthetic benchmarks, along with > some code analysis (maybe for 3 different categories of applications: > data processing intensive, web blog, database heavy application)) of > how > often particularily slow functions are called in an average > application, > we could extrapolate a ball park figure of what kind of slow down to > expect. > > regards, > Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Nicolas Bérard-Nault wrote: > I have one specific example of where this can be a HUGE headache. Let's > say you have some serialized configuration files, saved with > unicode.semantics = 1, containing a single configuration array. Now, for > some reason, the administrator decides to turn unicode.semantics = 0 and > your configuration file does not work anymore. That's because > $arr[(unicode) 'key'] and $arr[(binary) 'key'] are different. Hence, all > the keys in the configuration array have to be explicitly accessed with > either (binary) or (unicode). You are going to have this problem with or without the Unicode switch though. Whenever you write a string to a file or socket and you don't carry the actual encoding along with it, then you are completely at the whim of the default configuration to try to determine which encoding something is in. If one PHP instance has its default encoding set to Big-5 and another has it set to Shift-JIS you are going to have the exact same problem. -Rasmus -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Hi everybody, I first want to personally thank everybody who have voiced their opinions on this subject as it shows how much concern you all have for PHP. To give a bit of background, I am one of the PHP Google Summer of Code students and part of my project was to port/create a PHP 6 application, namely, the Jaws CMS. My experience proved to be very instructive in terms of evaluating the new functionalities of PHP 6. My experience with unicode.semantics has been very frustrating. Most of the mainstream projects cannot control their environments and have to be as portable as possible. To create a portable application for PHP 6, you have to consider the two different unicode.semantics scenarios AND the possibility that the switch, for some reason, might be turned on or off at any time in the future. Even if you don't care about Unicode and/or have never heard about it, that is very important for you. I have one specific example of where this can be a HUGE headache. Let's say you have some serialized configuration files, saved with unicode.semantics = 1, containing a single configuration array. Now, for some reason, the administrator decides to turn unicode.semantics = 0 and your configuration file does not work anymore. That's because $arr[(unicode) 'key'] and $arr[(binary) 'key'] are different. Hence, all the keys in the configuration array have to be explicitly accessed with either (binary) or (unicode). Now, make your own examples of how the switch will affect the life of PHP programmers in the future and you will discover some disastrous scenarios. >From now on, all the strings will have to be explicitly set/casted because you never know if you'll get a binary string or a Unicode string when you ask for a string. Literally, when PHP 6 becomes mainstream, all the programmers will have to be re-educated to face these issues. As far as I'm concerned, this is unprecedented in the history of the PHP project. PHP - loosely typed, except for strings. In the end, the switch benefits only the developers of very specialized applications that run on big websites that can control their environments. I've seen the 95%-who-don't-care figure circulating on this thread. If it were really the case, why was the feature implemented with so much care in PHP in the first place ? I, for one, do not agree with the 95% figure. Most, if not all of the fastest growing markets in the world are non-english speaking and native Unicode support makes PHP a prime choice for them. We're not talking about 10 folks in Iowa there. We're talking about billions. Overall, I think the damn switch is simply not a good idea. It removes a good part of what made PHP a success: simplicity. Get rid of it once and for all. On 8/20/07, Andrei Zmievski <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > Nothing is happening, as far as I can tell. We are at an impasse, > basically. Personally, I am fine with removing the damn switch and > going forward with PHP 6 as Unicode-only. God knows it will rid us of > at least one headache - having to discuss it anymore. > > -Andrei > http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog > > On Aug 20, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Coallier wrote: > > Time to put gas on the fire. > > > > Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in > > the background that we are not seeing ? :) > > > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Nicolas Bérard-Nault ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Étudiant D.E.C . Sciences, Lettres & Arts Cégep de Sherbrooke Homepage: http://nicobn.googlepages.com
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
> -Original Message- > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:30 AM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: Derick Rethans; Andrei Zmievski; Antony Dovgal; Rasmus Lerdorf; PHP > Developers Mailing List > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > Maybe you guys can try with ezComponents? > > So whats your target with this BC flag .. make it possible to have > PHP4-PHP6 (unicode off) apps? It means having to only maintain one code base and also making it easier for people to adopt PHP 6 (Unicode isn't everything we'd have there). It also gives users the choice between Unicode PHP (which will be a headache for some) and the easy PHP. Also performance is something which I think is important but we don't know the full impact yet. If it's just 20% it's not a big deal; if it's much more than it probably is. Also memory usage is a big issue today with scalable Web apps. > Keep in mind that the camp that is suggesting to remove the unicode > flag > is at the same time committing to back porting more things to PHP5 in a > case per case basis. As a result users will not be left in the dust > with > PHP5. Yes, this is definitely a good idea but it'd require more maintenance mode because we'd have to maintain it for much longer. That said it's probably the best alternative. > > Derick also suggested on IRC that we should focus on making PHP 5.3 as > much forward compatible as possible, to make this even more feasible. Yes, definitely. For starters we should have the (binary) cast operator there. > Remember that several people have pointed out that maintaining the > unicode flag is more or less like maintaining two branches (in some > respects its even harder .. in some other its less .. which probably > evens out more or less ..). At the same time we will need to maintain > PHP5 for quite some time anyways as PHP6 matures and people get more > RAM :) This isn't quite true. You will have to maintain two code paths in all internal functions anyway because you will support both UTF-16 and binary strings. The biggest problems are in the engine and most of the maintenance has been done by us. So it's not going to affect most people. > This porting effort will undoubtly benefit PHP6 in the ways you > describe. It will help us find issues, it will help us improve the > migration documentation. However binding this decision to actually > porting a BIG PHP4 and a BIG PHP5 app is not feasible. We _know_ the > increased effort in maintance, we do not know the performance impact > and > the migration time. So how can the default be that we increase the > maintance effort in order to speed up something we do not know? I think that we are having this discussion based on very little data. People here are saying that the upgrade path is quite easy. We've had very different experiences. I'd like some more time to look into that and see if we can make automated scripts to help people convert (like we did from php/fi 2 to php 3). It'd also shed some more light onto the performance piece and see if it truly is significant. Btw, not sure why the maintenance piece is being discounted so much. I still think that PHP 6 with two modes is less maintenance efforts than PHP 5 and PHP 6 for many more years. At least we stick to one code base even if the modes aren't compatible. In that sense it would be no different from just PHP 5 and PHP 6. Anyway, I am listening. I will try and help find some data points and hopefully find an acceptable solution but this takes some time. Which is why I said that if part of the community helped in figuring some of this out it'd be great. Andi
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Hi, Ok, so I think its becoming clear that BC is not the main issue we will be addressing with the unicode switch. I know Zeev's mantra that BC is not binary, but from the people that have posted feedback on the topic from actual experience it seems that making code work on PHP5 (and even PHP4) as well as PHP6 is possible with a bit of work, but without a rewrite. So at this point the main argument can only resolve around performance. So the question is how much performance does a user gain by turning of unicode in PHP6. We might be able to figure this out without porting an actual application. Maybe with a few synthetic benchmarks, along with some code analysis (maybe for 3 different categories of applications: data processing intensive, web blog, database heavy application)) of how often particularily slow functions are called in an average application, we could extrapolate a ball park figure of what kind of slow down to expect. regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Uhm, what makes you think we don't have asian users? I also don't recall suggesting that we should not have Unicode support. Don't forget how much we invested in implementing this in the engine. It was far from trivial... Andi > -Original Message- > From: Jani Taskinen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 2:38 AM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > So what happened to the "Open" in "OpenSource" or is PHP now something > else now? > > btw. 95% of Zend users propably don't need unicode but there are a lot > more people out there who can't really use PHP right now since it > doesn't have full unicode support. The percents pulled out of sleeve > would be rather the opposite with all japanese/chinese/etc. asian > countries included.. ;) > > --Jani > > On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 20:53 -0700, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we > currently > > did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no > > reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native > > Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the > > slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they > gain > > nothing and only loose. > > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it > offline > > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. > > > > Andi > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Andrei Zmievski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:02 PM > > > To: David Coallier > > > Cc: Stefan Priebsch; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lukas Kahwe Smith; > > > Antony Dovgal; Rasmus Lerdorf; Derick Rethans; Cristian Rodriguez; > > > internals@lists.php.net > > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in > PHP > > 6? > > > > > > Nothing is happening, as far as I can tell. We are at an impasse, > > > basically. Personally, I am fine with removing the damn switch and > > > going forward with PHP 6 as Unicode-only. God knows it will rid us > of > > > at least one headache - having to discuss it anymore. > > > > > > -Andrei > > > http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog > > > > > > On Aug 20, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Coallier wrote: > > > > Time to put gas on the fire. > > > > > > > > Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here > in > > > > the background that we are not seeing ? :) > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 08:31 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> How much work do people think *IS* involved in porting a large application
> over to PHP6? Reading between the lines it looks like we are talking file
> conversion to UTF-16 + what? What is currently a show stopper to simply
> running a PHP5 application? I
I'm bored of the unicode.semantics discussion, but a few words on this:
No, UTF-16 is the internal encoding of (textual) strings in PHP 6 (with
u.s.=On) as a user you should never ever see any text in that encoding.
You're scripts use the encoding specified as "unicode.script_encoding"
which defaults to UTF-8 or the one specified in a declare() statement.
Internally they will be converted to UTF-16 then. When being printed to
the output stream they will be converted from UTF-16 to the encoding
specified using unicode.outputencoding (default again UTF-8).
When porting a PHP 5 application there aren't that many problems from my
experience with quite small applications (while I just did simple tests
mainly for testing simple stuff in PHP...)
- You might have some files with different encodings than the configured
one, für example some applications I'm involved with have my lastname
with an ISO-8859-1 encoded umlaut in some DocComment or string, either
the files have to be converted (using recode/iconv should do the
trick) or you need a declare statement. (these declare statements,
btw. are compatible [as in being ignored] with PHP 4 and PHP 5)
- You might get a few warnings on stream operations if you're not giving
a specific encoding, problem there is that some stream operations
expect different numbers of parameters, so running the same thing with
PHP 5 and 6 might give a few warnings, but well, most of them can be
ignored
- Some function want only binary strings and won't convert uniocode
strings themselves (which would be done by using
unicode.runtime_encoding) or the other way round. Most of these places
will be fixed, some of these will need a specific cast by the user.
An example is rawurlencode() which expects for good reasons a binary
string. In such an case a (binary) cast, which exists as no-op in PHP
5.2, too, might be enough. Sometimes you might need a
unicode_[en|de]code() call.
This might need some work.
- A bit more work might be involved when you expect to work on bytes
when doing string operations, if your applications only use English
texts using ASCII characters that's no issue et all, if not the
results of operations like
strlen("äöü");
or
$a = "äöü"; echo $a{2};
might be different depending in the version. But as said in ASCII text
it's no issue since a single character takes a single byte.
A really, really bad workaround for most issues related to this, is
using an encoding like ISO-8859-1 for all unicode*_encoding settings.
Then most byte sequences can be converted to UTF-16 and a single byte
is a UTF-16 character and everything "seems" to work, but well, that's
bad and shouldn't be advertised.
Well, these are most of the things I saw when porting simple
applications from PHP 5 to PHP 6 half a year ago (so maybe I forgot
something important I did...), some of them even are still compatible to
all PHP versions from 4 to 6 (with u.s) while not really making use of
the benefits of the Unicode support.
So for porting: A good first step is simply installing PHP 6, making
sure u.s is On and then fix the errors appearing :-)
And as a final statement: From my experience with rather small apps:
It's possible to make applicatiosn run with PHP 5 and PHP 6 with u.s
On... (while "run" there means "it works but won't benefit from the
unicode stuff")
johannes
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RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
> So what happened to the "Open" in "OpenSource" or is PHP now something > else now? > > btw. 95% of Zend users propably don't need unicode but there are a lot > more people out there who can't really use PHP right now since it > doesn't have full unicode support. The percents pulled out of sleeve > would be rather the opposite with all japanese/chinese/etc. asian > countries included.. ;) PHP supports Japanese since 4.0.6. Chinese is supported since 4.3.0. Text length evaluation, case insensitive strings, substr should work. What else do you need in PHP scripts for "full unicode support" in CJK languages? Reading symbols with $string[$position]? The ones that do such things are not your normal users and this can be done with mb_substr. Want to make sure that CJK support is corified? What is wrong with requiring mbstring support? If you go "think about users" path, then remember that PHP does not work for 110 millions of Turks, Kurds and Azerbaijani in Mid East. Bug was closed with "Won't fix" and locale insensitive tolower()|toupper() functions take less than 10 lines in C. I am not C programmer. My tests show that if I change zend_tolower() to work in locale insensitive way, strtolower() remains locale sensitive and class_exists and case insensitive method names do not fail. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 21/08/07, Jani Taskinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 08:18 +0200, Derick Rethans wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it offline > > > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > > > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. > > > > What makes you think that any other group can agree on this? > > When you can't get people to agree with you, choose the people who > already agree with you..or can't afford not to agree. ;) > > --Jani I'll agree with anyone who makes it worth my while! -- - Richard Quadling Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731 "Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!" -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 08:18 +0200, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it offline > > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. > > What makes you think that any other group can agree on this? When you can't get people to agree with you, choose the people who already agree with you..or can't afford not to agree. ;) --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
So what happened to the "Open" in "OpenSource" or is PHP now something else now? btw. 95% of Zend users propably don't need unicode but there are a lot more people out there who can't really use PHP right now since it doesn't have full unicode support. The percents pulled out of sleeve would be rather the opposite with all japanese/chinese/etc. asian countries included.. ;) --Jani On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 20:53 -0700, Andi Gutmans wrote: > No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we currently > did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no > reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native > Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the > slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they gain > nothing and only loose. > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it offline > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. > > Andi > > > -Original Message- > > From: Andrei Zmievski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:02 PM > > To: David Coallier > > Cc: Stefan Priebsch; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lukas Kahwe Smith; > > Antony Dovgal; Rasmus Lerdorf; Derick Rethans; Cristian Rodriguez; > > internals@lists.php.net > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP > 6? > > > > Nothing is happening, as far as I can tell. We are at an impasse, > > basically. Personally, I am fine with removing the damn switch and > > going forward with PHP 6 as Unicode-only. God knows it will rid us of > > at least one headache - having to discuss it anymore. > > > > -Andrei > > http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog > > > > On Aug 20, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Coallier wrote: > > > Time to put gas on the fire. > > > > > > Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in > > > the background that we are not seeing ? :) > > > > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Andi Gutmans wrote: Maybe you guys can try with ezComponents? So whats your target with this BC flag .. make it possible to have PHP4-PHP6 (unicode off) apps? Keep in mind that the camp that is suggesting to remove the unicode flag is at the same time committing to back porting more things to PHP5 in a case per case basis. As a result users will not be left in the dust with PHP5. Derick also suggested on IRC that we should focus on making PHP 5.3 as much forward compatible as possible, to make this even more feasible. Remember that several people have pointed out that maintaining the unicode flag is more or less like maintaining two branches (in some respects its even harder .. in some other its less .. which probably evens out more or less ..). At the same time we will need to maintain PHP5 for quite some time anyways as PHP6 matures and people get more RAM :) This porting effort will undoubtly benefit PHP6 in the ways you describe. It will help us find issues, it will help us improve the migration documentation. However binding this decision to actually porting a BIG PHP4 and a BIG PHP5 app is not feasible. We _know_ the increased effort in maintance, we do not know the performance impact and the migration time. So how can the default be that we increase the maintance effort in order to speed up something we do not know? regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Andi Gutmans wrote: Anyway, as I suggested, let's do more homework. We started and it wasn't a pretty sight. But still lots to do. There seem to be enough passionate people on this list to actually port 3-4 apps over and give us some more input on the answers we really need. I have kept out of this debate - lack of time - and while I'm probably one of the '95%' I *DO* understand that not having unicode available is MORE of a headache so I need to be more pro-active in using it. How much work do people think *IS* involved in porting a large application over to PHP6? Reading between the lines it looks like we are talking file conversion to UTF-16 + what? What is currently a show stopper to simply running a PHP5 application? I used to keep a PHP6 setup here but that had to go with all the crap involved in the different versions of PHP5.? so I haven't had a PHP6 copy running for some time :( - but the bitweaver framework does allow easy code management so I would be prepared to spend time at least starting to have a look! No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we currently did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they gain nothing and only loose. ( Top posting sucks ;) ) I suppose this is the difference between native UTF-8 and UTF-16? If you only use the 127 character ascii set then there is no difference between UTF-8 and ASCII? So I assume that the alternative half way house is currently being discussed and everything will be UTF-16 and 16 bit characters? Given that there are now two branches to MOST operating systems (32 bit and 64 bit) I see no reason that there should not be two builds of PHP6 but to be honest I am probably in the native unicode camp. Keep PHP5.x for 8bit character sets, and develop PHP6 as 32bit ready for the processors that are already available to use it. It will be another 10 years before PHP5 reaches a point were it may want to die by which time who knows how much memory and how many processor cores we will have in our PDA's :) The one thing to avoid is the situation that happened with PHP4, where many of the good reasons for changing were simply back ported? Either we see PHP6 as a natural progression to PHP5, nothing gets 'back ported', and PHP6 runs PHP5 applications out of the box, or PHP6 requires a 'conversion package' to transfer PHP5 applications and provides a clean unicode environment. In the first case we need the switch - in the second *I* would be looking for 32 bit character clean code. A half way house of UTF-16 way may as well have the switch, since all the code to manage multiple 'byte' characters is still messing up the code base - and we start looking at PHP7 :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
> -Original Message- > From: Derick Rethans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 11:40 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: Andrei Zmievski; Lukas Kahwe Smith; Antony Dovgal; Rasmus Lerdorf; > PHP Developers Mailing List > Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > And the homework being porting applications to see if this works? In > order to find all the issues you'd need a fairly big application and > there would be nobody willing to port 100.000 LoC just to see whether > it > works. So you're suggesting to just pull the trigger and let's just see if we get lucky? Yes, I see no reason not to port some applications. We started porting Zend Framework which is more than that which is why we stumbled on a lot of the issues. Again, I think part of the porting exercise is also figuring out what can be automated. Preferably we'll have some docs and scripts available for our users with PHP 6 and not just a bunch of bits with a "good luck" message. Maybe you guys can try with ezComponents? Andi
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > > > No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we currently > > > did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no > > > reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native > > > Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the > > > slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they gain > > > nothing and only loose. > > > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it offline > > > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > > > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. > > > > What makes you think that any other group can agree on this? > > I don't think it's a matter of agreeing but rather we can try and > figure out how to get out of this stale mate. This includes going down > the path I suggested which includes doing some more homework to figure > this out. [snip] > Anyway, as I suggested, let's do more homework. We started and it > wasn't a pretty sight. But still lots to do. There seem to be enough > passionate people on this list to actually port 3-4 apps over and give > us some more input on the answers we really need. And the homework being porting applications to see if this works? In order to find all the issues you'd need a fairly big application and there would be nobody willing to port 100.000 LoC just to see whether it works. regards, Derick PS. and ffs, can you please stop the top posting and the mangling of quoted text? I assume us as technies can deal with e-mail in a sensible way. -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > And if Andrei, who is mostly behind (afaict) the whole thing, says he's okay > > with getting rid of the totally useless option then in my eyes that's the > > death sentence for the option. > > In your eyes - fine. But besides your personal eyes, there is also such thing > as consensus, and it wasn't achieved. And there won't any concensus in this case either. regards, Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Well that's the problem. We have put months (if not more) of work into PHP 6 but most people who are complaining aren't willing to take a stab at actually help figuring this out. No matter what we end up doing, the worst is if we make an arbitrary decision because no one had time to get the right data. I consider that part of implementing Unicode. If we can't figure it out to the detail then we should maybe dump it all together (and that's not what I'm suggesting). Andi > -Original Message- > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 11:22 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > Before we continue this discussion I think there are a couple of > things > > which would be useful data points: > > a) What is the performance difference between an implicit Unicode app > > and non-Unicode. If we have 3-4 apps ported over to > Unicode_semantics=on > > Honestly I do not see anyone on this list having the time to do this. > Maybe it needs to be turned into a coding contest of sorts, but the > bottom line is that its not a task that anyone but a bored student > could > do. Maybe there are a few on this list, but I doubt it. > > So we might need some marketing bla bla. With a bit of blogging, a few > googies thrown in and a website: "Help determine the future of PHP6 - > port a popular PHP application to PHP6" > > regards, > Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
I don't think it's a matter of agreeing but rather we can try and figure out how to get out of this stale mate. This includes going down the path I suggested which includes doing some more homework to figure this out. I am keeping an open mind and am willing to be convinced but I feel there's still significant work to be done to figure out both the upgrade path and the performance piece. I am more than willing to put some work into this but we shouldn't just make impulsive decisions without seriously considering the consequences. Also, if at the end of this we still feel like we'll need to maintain two different code bases then I see only disadvantages over maintaining one with two different ways of running. It'll be much less work for maintainers. Sure, both situations aren't great but it's the lesser of both evils. Anyway, as I suggested, let's do more homework. We started and it wasn't a pretty sight. But still lots to do. There seem to be enough passionate people on this list to actually port 3-4 apps over and give us some more input on the answers we really need. Andi > -Original Message- > From: Derick Rethans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 11:19 PM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: Andrei Zmievski; Lukas Kahwe Smith; Antony Dovgal; Rasmus Lerdorf; > PHP Developers Mailing List > Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > > > No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we > currently > > did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no > > reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native > > Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the > > slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they > gain > > nothing and only loose. > > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it > offline > > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. > > What makes you think that any other group can agree on this? > > regards, > Derick > > -- > Derick Rethans > http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Andi Gutmans wrote: Before we continue this discussion I think there are a couple of things which would be useful data points: a) What is the performance difference between an implicit Unicode app and non-Unicode. If we have 3-4 apps ported over to Unicode_semantics=on Honestly I do not see anyone on this list having the time to do this. Maybe it needs to be turned into a coding contest of sorts, but the bottom line is that its not a task that anyone but a bored student could do. Maybe there are a few on this list, but I doubt it. So we might need some marketing bla bla. With a bit of blogging, a few googies thrown in and a website: "Help determine the future of PHP6 - port a popular PHP application to PHP6" regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, Andi Gutmans wrote: > No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we currently > did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no > reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native > Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the > slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they gain > nothing and only loose. > Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it offline > to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and > discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. What makes you think that any other group can agree on this? regards, Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Before we continue this discussion I think there are a couple of things which would be useful data points: a) What is the performance difference between an implicit Unicode app and non-Unicode. If we have 3-4 apps ported over to Unicode_semantics=on with only true binary strings cast to binay and real strings as UTF-16, then I volunteer to put it through our performance lab and come up with some real numbers. The lab is very well setup and is quite accurate. Do we have volunteers to port some of those apps? I suggested some apps a few emails ago. b) We should try and figure out whether a script could automatically migrate an application. I'll look into this but if anyone has time to work on something like that it'd be very helpful input. I think if we get more clarity on these two then it'll go a long way in making this discussion more productive... Andi -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
No I'm absolutely not OK with removing this switch and as we currently did most of the implementation for it and are maintaining it I see no reason to remove it. 95% of our users couldn't care less about native Unicode support except for the performance hit they'd take due to the slower functions and increased memory usage. For most of them they gain nothing and only loose. Anyway, don't want to reignite the thread here. I will take it offline to discuss with the people who have been involved in this project and discuss further. The mailing list here isn't exactly working. Andi > -Original Message- > From: Andrei Zmievski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:02 PM > To: David Coallier > Cc: Stefan Priebsch; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lukas Kahwe Smith; > Antony Dovgal; Rasmus Lerdorf; Derick Rethans; Cristian Rodriguez; > internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > Nothing is happening, as far as I can tell. We are at an impasse, > basically. Personally, I am fine with removing the damn switch and > going forward with PHP 6 as Unicode-only. God knows it will rid us of > at least one headache - having to discuss it anymore. > > -Andrei > http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog > > On Aug 20, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Coallier wrote: > > Time to put gas on the fire. > > > > Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in > > the background that we are not seeing ? :) > > > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 8/20/07, Stanislav Malyshev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In your eyes - fine. But besides your personal eyes, there is also such > thing as consensus, and it wasn't achieved. Excuse me but it is achieved, you only don't see it, or refuse to see it. --Pierre -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
For some reason only totally opposing people have Z in their email address domain.. Even if it were true (which it isn't) - so what? And if Andrei, who is mostly behind (afaict) the whole thing, says he's okay with getting rid of the totally useless option then in my eyes that's the death sentence for the option. In your eyes - fine. But besides your personal eyes, there is also such thing as consensus, and it wasn't achieved. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Because we can't stay in the stasis forever? What concrete steps do you propose to change the current situation? -Andrei http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog On Aug 20, 2007, at 12:54 PM, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: FINALLY we're getting somewhere. Now where to start removing all the I don't see how we are getting somewhere - as before, there are people for removing it and against removing it. Nothing changed, as far as I see. Why suddenly should we start removing anything? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
>>> FINALLY we're getting somewhere. Now where to start removing all the >> >> I don't see how we are getting somewhere - as before, there are people >> for removing it and against removing it. Nothing changed, as far as I >> see. Why suddenly should we start removing anything? > > For some reason only totally opposing people have Z in their email address > domain.. add U, S, N and T. :) > And if Andrei, who is mostly behind (afaict) the whole thing, says he's > okay > with getting rid of the totally useless option then in my eyes that's the > death sentence for the option. Some people want to use PHP6 unicode options. Other people want to be able to run PHP5 scripts on PHP6. Restarting same discussion about removal does not lead to anything useful. Both sides said their arguments and noone wants to lose. Option is not useless. It allows to run both modes in some setups without having to install two PHP versions. php_admin_flag works in Apache, but I suspect that other setups can override it by setting different php.ini location. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 20.08.2007 20:14, David Coallier wrote: Time to put gas on the fire. Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in the background that we are not seeing ? :) Nothing. It's stuck. -- Wbr, Antony Dovgal -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti: FINALLY we're getting somewhere. Now where to start removing all the I don't see how we are getting somewhere - as before, there are people for removing it and against removing it. Nothing changed, as far as I see. Why suddenly should we start removing anything? For some reason only totally opposing people have Z in their email address domain.. And if Andrei, who is mostly behind (afaict) the whole thing, says he's okay with getting rid of the totally useless option then in my eyes that's the death sentence for the option. --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
FINALLY we're getting somewhere. Now where to start removing all the I don't see how we are getting somewhere - as before, there are people for removing it and against removing it. Nothing changed, as far as I see. Why suddenly should we start removing anything? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
FINALLY we're getting somewhere. Now where to start removing all the crap that was necessary for the non-unicode mode? (I'd say the tests..) --Jani Andrei Zmievski kirjoitti: Nothing is happening, as far as I can tell. We are at an impasse, basically. Personally, I am fine with removing the damn switch and going forward with PHP 6 as Unicode-only. God knows it will rid us of at least one headache - having to discuss it anymore. -Andrei http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog On Aug 20, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Coallier wrote: Time to put gas on the fire. Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in the background that we are not seeing ? :) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Nothing is happening, as far as I can tell. We are at an impasse, basically. Personally, I am fine with removing the damn switch and going forward with PHP 6 as Unicode-only. God knows it will rid us of at least one headache - having to discuss it anymore. -Andrei http://10fathoms.org/vu - daily photoblog On Aug 20, 2007, at 9:14 AM, David Coallier wrote: Time to put gas on the fire. Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in the background that we are not seeing ? :) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 7/6/07, Stefan Priebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > IMHO backporting a lot of features to PHP4 is a major reasons for the > slow PHP5 adoption. Basically, it seems that everybody who is not using > OOP feels that PHP4 is fine for them. > > I'd say committing to backporting stuff from PHP6 to PHP5 will yield a > similar situation: very slow or no PHP6 adoption. > > BTW, can't the unicode switch be done at compile time? So one can > compile PHP6 Unicode and PHP6 non-Unicode. Then if there is a clever way > of running both engines in parallel, there should be no performance > impact inside the non-unicode engine. Since there is both versions of > the engine (that can maybe even selected by a certain statement in the > main PHP file of the application), unicode and non-unicode users are > happy. And there is only one version of PHP in the market, to conquer it > all. > > There must be a reason to upgrade to a new PHP version (usually > features, maybe performance increase etc.). But there also must be no > reason not to upgrade. But you all know this, it has been said before. > > Kind regards, > > Stefan > > -- > >e-novative> - We make IT work for you. > > e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407 > Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch > > http://www.e-novative.de > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > Time to put gas on the fire. Is this flag going to be removed or what? What is happening here in the background that we are not seeing ? :) -- D Do I get a buck? No so ? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Sat, July 14, 2007 9:00 am, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > Richard Lynch wrote: >>> $a = "ãÆžãÆâ¹Ã£Æ¥ãâ¢ãÆ«"; >>> echo $a[1]; >> >> Whoa. >> >> That was weird... > > Right, your mail client doesn't handle Unicode correctly. You might > want to do something about that. Or not, since I don't have any chance of reading Japanese even if the characters "look right"... I was in Paris once, and using a French keyboard didn't improve my French either. :-) I could switch to a "real" mail client instead of the webhost supplied SquirrelMail, I suppose... Last time I tried to do that, the Linux mail client "ate" a bunch of my email and really messed things up badly. I think it was KMail... Other times I found the sync time of an IMAP mail client to be rather abysmal compared to the web-based eamil... Maybe I just store too much old email or something, but I'm not seeing much reason to switch, since neither of the two renderings were readable. It was only interesting that it "switched" in read mode and compose mode is all. PS I suspect a newer squirrelMail would handle Unicode just fine, and I'm sure my webhost will upgrade long before I need them to. Or I can install a new squirrelMail in my own server and run whatever version I want, if I go learn Japanese first... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
> That sounds "good" in my ears. > > Software that relys on "old" non-unicode behaviour must be written in a > way two handle non-unicode and Unicode behaviour in two different ways. > But for example a rewritten "Squirrelmail" that runs exlusively on PHP6 > would be a good thing. > > So you could write on your release notes: "We have this new version > SquirrelMail++ that’s running only on hosts running PHP6. Using this would > be a great speed and performance increase, because the Unicode addons are > only available here. If you need an old non-unicode version, you have to > stay with our old historic version." The old historic Squirrelmail version > without Unicode support would be stays supported until some time. But all > users would know: If I want to have new features, I should think about a > change to PHP6, all other users could stay on the old version. > > In the case of the fantastic software "SquirrelMail++PHP6-only" (which I > would use on my servers, too) I would think in this direction! There is nothing in current PHP6 version that can be used by SquirrelMail. Last features are provided by PHP 5.1.0. Limiting code to PHP6 would reduce user base. SquirrelMail can work on PHP6 with unicode.semantics=off, if two lines in one script are fixed. P.S. I am not SquirrelMail guy. I am former SquirrelMail developer and I use own modified SquirrelMail version. It does not have issues with Japanese. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
> In the case of the fantastic software "SquirrelMail++PHP6-only" (which I > would use on my servers, too) I would think in this direction! My last post was specific to the complaining guy from SquirrelMail: Squirrelmail is a fantastic example of software that would, in a rewritten form, make use of PHP6 at many points (there are many bugs with Unicode in it...) and make profit of it! Uwe - Uwe Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.php.net NSAPI SAPI developer Bremen, Germany -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
That sounds "good" in my ears. Software that relys on "old" non-unicode behaviour must be written in a way two handle non-unicode and Unicode behaviour in two different ways. But for example a rewritten "Squirrelmail" that runs exlusively on PHP6 would be a good thing. So you could write on your release notes: "We have this new version SquirrelMail++ that’s running only on hosts running PHP6. Using this would be a great speed and performance increase, because the Unicode addons are only available here. If you need an old non-unicode version, you have to stay with our old historic version." The old historic Squirrelmail version without Unicode support would be stays supported until some time. But all users would know: If I want to have new features, I should think about a change to PHP6, all other users could stay on the old version. In the case of the fantastic software "SquirrelMail++PHP6-only" (which I would use on my servers, too) I would think in this direction! - Uwe Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.php.net NSAPI SAPI developer Bremen, Germany > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 4:00 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? > > Richard Lynch wrote: > >> $a = "マニュアル"; > >> echo $a[1]; > > > > Whoa. > > > > That was weird... > > Right, your mail client doesn't handle Unicode correctly. You might > want to do something about that. > > -Rasmus > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Richard Lynch wrote: >> $a = "マニュアル"; >> echo $a[1]; > > Whoa. > > That was weird... Right, your mail client doesn't handle Unicode correctly. You might want to do something about that. -Rasmus -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
>> But if you write: >> >> $a = "マニュアル"; >> echo $a[1]; > > Whoa. > > That was weird... > > It was just a bunch of question marks when I read it, and now it's a > bunch of symbols (variants on afz mostly) in my reply... Your browser or operating system does not support Japanese symbols and translation selected in your Hostbaby Webmail (or you could use real name - SquirrelMail) does not support Japanese characters in reply. According to google translate $a variable stores word 'Manual' written in Japanese. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, July 11, 2007 9:14 pm, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > Richard, you are rather confused on this Unicode stuff. I'm 100% certain we can all agree on that point. :-) > The fact that > PHP and ICU uses UTF-16 internally has absolutely nothing to do with > what is exposed at the scripting level. But somebody has just said that it will, didn't they? That GPC data will be Unicode, and trying to use it as ASCII will break? > The only things that will break in a standard application is stuff > that > relies on strings being binary. Normal text passing back and forth > between the browser and the server will work just fine. > > The breakages, apart from various bugs at this early stage, are > limited > to places where the code is expecting to see a binary string and PHP > hasn't been able to determine this automatically. And hopefully we > can > come up with ways to automatically determine when something should > default to a binary string. > > But if you write: > > $a = "ããã¥ã¢ã«"; > echo $a[1]; Whoa. That was weird... It was just a bunch of question marks when I read it, and now it's a bunch of symbols (variants on afz mostly) in my reply... > and you expect to have that spew out 0xe3, then yes, it will break > because it will result in ã which is what it really should do. You have me beat at the "...if you write" part, because I have no idea how to make my keyboard make those symbols... :-v My only concern is that: http://example.com/foo=bar echo $_GET['foo'][2]; should still print out 'a' just like it always has. And: http://example.com/mask=100110 echo $_GET['mask'] & 110010; should print out 100010 just like it always has Folks keep saying that bit-string manipulation makes no sense in Unicode, and that's fine, I guess... If a scripter is trying to do that, then see if the string is ASCII [01]* and typecast it to binary string or whatever and just move on with life in the old way. > And yes, I know a lot of people reading this list don't care much for > other charsets, but people reading an english mailing list are rather > self-selecting. I love the idea of users being able to write things in their own language, and somehow it magically all just "looks right" when I slam it into the database with mysql_real_escape_string and spew it back out the the browser with htmlentities! But it never quite seems to work out, in my limited experience, because some software somewhere always manages to mangle it... And I release the whole point of Unicode in PHP 6 is to make PHP 6 not be that piece of software that mangles it, and I'm sure you guys are getting that bit right. Well, I hope so anyway. :-) I especially hope so, because if you don't get it right, I'll never be able to tell, as I wouldn't notice the difference if it's broken or not just by looking at the text in anything other than English. I just get real concerned when it seems to me like a lot of scripts are going to break, based on what folks who should know post here... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Richard Quadling wrote: > On 11/07/07, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Larry Garfield wrote: > > > > > > Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say > > > (unordered): > > > > > > Drupal > > > Squirrelmail > > > WordPress > > > phpMyAdmin > > > MediaWiki > > > Joomla > > > PHPBB > > > > > > > That will keep me busy =) > > Would it also be worth checking some of the frameworks too? Prado, eZ, > Zend? I did test things a couple of months ago for the eZ Components, and it didn't seem that bad. But now it's more "messy", but I didn't really check why. regards, Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
AFAIK, UTF-8 is backward compatible with ASCII. UTF-16 is not. That's why Well, with 7-bit ASCII - yes. With 8-bit "extended ASCII", whatever that means - not exactly. You can have 8-bit strings that aren't valid UTF-8 and can't be translated to UTF-8 without specifying the encoding (iso-889-1 or something like that). -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
From our perspective, you've gone and changed a fundamental data structure out from under us, in a non-backwards-compatible way, and broken a whole bunch of working code, for a feature we don't use, and can't turn off [*] Supporting unicode requires such change. It is a big deal - Unicode does change the way one thinks about textual information. Text is not a collection of 8-bit integers anymore. But this step needs to be made if we want to be able to write applications that deal with modern environments requiring multi-language and multi-locale support. So PHP 6 is to make this step. I can always find a host who will do what I want with enough effort, but a LOT of users will just give up on PHP 6 and stick with 5 (or 4 even) rather than do that... Maybe. But we have unicode=off option to give them a chance for smoother transition. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Larry Garfield schrieb: > On Tuesday 10 July 2007, Evert | Rooftop wrote: >> Andi Gutmans wrote: >>> I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev >>> team. >>> It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues >>> that/common use-cases which are encountered. >>> Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such >>> purposes? >>> Andi >> Is anyone aware of a list with a, say top 10 PHP applications? >> >> When such a wiki is setup, how would you suggest to write such >> documents.. At least a generic guide would be good (e.g.: common pitfalls) >> Should I be documenting the per-project specifics as well? >> >> Evert > > Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say > (unordered): > > Drupal > Squirrelmail > WordPress > phpMyAdmin phpMyAdmin runs fine with PHP 6, except masses of notices/stricts (due to PHP 4 compatibility till 2.11 release this year) if you find problems tell me -- Sebastian Mendel www.sebastianmendel.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Richard Lynch wrote: On Wed, July 11, 2007 3:11 am, Richard Quadling wrote: On 11/07/07, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Larry Garfield wrote: Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say (unordered): Drupal Squirrelmail WordPress phpMyAdmin MediaWiki Joomla PHPBB I saw a reference in this thread to webhosts that don't upgrade because cPanel didn't work, no? [Larry said that, I think...] So, I dunno, maybe the various panels that all those webhosters use should be a candidate... I mean, they all seem to have those panel thingies, even if I personally use them as rarely as humanly possible... [Talk about making easy things impossible... :-)] I got no idea which ones are the most common, though. Cpanel Plesk Ensim -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:27:21 -0500 (CDT), "Richard Lynch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, July 11, 2007 3:11 am, Richard Quadling wrote: >> On 11/07/07, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Larry Garfield wrote: >>> > >>> > Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, >>> I'd say >>> > (unordered): >>> > >>> > Drupal >>> > Squirrelmail >>> > WordPress >>> > phpMyAdmin >>> > MediaWiki >>> > Joomla >>> > PHPBB > > I saw a reference in this thread to webhosts that don't upgrade > because cPanel didn't work, no? > [Larry said that, I think...] > > So, I dunno, maybe the various panels that all those webhosters use > should be a candidate... > > I mean, they all seem to have those panel thingies, even if I > personally use them as rarely as humanly possible... > > [Talk about making easy things impossible... :-)] > > I got no idea which ones are the most common, though. Quite right. But I sort of thought it was a given. So never mentioned it. While I have 50+ servers myself. I like to see "what the other half" is doing, from time to time. I noticed one (I'll report back with the main hosing Co.) was in the process of upgrading their Cpanel version to one called CpanelX. After their upgrade there were quite a few new features. So I uploaded some carefully crafted PHP scripts, that they wouldn't approve of, to my newly created testing account and "jacked" some sensitive info about them. Seems (among other things I won't mention here) they now offered version 5 (as well as 4). Like I said, I'll go back and see who is the root for all the "illedged" hosting companies. They all /claimed/ to be independant. But I discovered otherwise. Just can't seem to recall the name. > > -- > Some people have a "gift" link here. > Know what I want? > I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. > http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch > Yeah, I get a buck. So? > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:23:20 -0500 (CDT), "Richard Lynch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Remember that old series of jokes about how C is a language that lets > you shoot your foot off? > > runkit lets you design a gun so you can use one foot to shoot the other. LOL! Yes, I've been looking at it as time permits. Seems pretty powerful. > > On Tue, July 10, 2007 2:46 am, chris# wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:02:15 +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> On 10.07.2007, at 01:19, chris# wrote: >>> On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP > 6 > adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. > > There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in > separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines side-by- side with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating some overhead? Wouldn't that actually be easier? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. >>> >>> maybe someone could make runkit really fast .. *nudge* >> >> DOH! I've been using PHP since it was invented and /can/ /not/ believe >> I >> didn't see this. I'm looking at it now. Looks intriguing. >> What's your experience with it? >> >> Thanks for the pointer/response! >>> >>> regards, >>> Lukas >> / >> Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! >> . >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> > > > -- > Some people have a "gift" link here. > Know what I want? > I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. > http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch > Yeah, I get a buck. So? / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:22:00 -0500 (CDT), "Richard Lynch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You saw it in PHP 3/4. > > And it can LOOK from the outside like you're doing it, using a > ProxyPass from one Apache box to another. > > But I'm pretty sure you can't get both versions into one build, as the > symbols collide big-time during the configure/make process... Actually I read an article a couple of mos. ago where someone shared their experience installing two versions on their box - 4 as the base (default) install and 5 as the supplementary version. It was done as Apache modules. The default was installed as any PHP version might be done, and 5 was installed in the same $prefix but in the php5 directory - as opposed to the php directory. This permitted the use of php version; by extension, per directory, and/or by the use of .htaccess. Many others followed his article and attempted to do it themselves. But reported failure. Turns out that the one thing all failed attempts had in common was their OS (Linux). Linux has a less efficient/flexible loading mechanism than *BSD(i). Which (as you noted) causes symbol collision. The article was quite old, so I was unable to get the beginnings of it. So perhaps Linux has since made some provisions that overcome this problem (newer kernels). Anyway, I was hoping that some with a similar (working) experience might share it here. As I'm sure that ability would lend itself to generating an increased interest in installing 5 (or 6) along with their base 4 install. It would also shorten any attempt on my part to do the same. :) Thanks for taking the time to respond. P.S. Please don't top post. It buggers up the threads and breaks context. > > On Mon, July 9, 2007 6:19 pm, chris# wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP 6 >>> adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. >>> >>> There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in >>> separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. >> >> Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines >> side-by-side >> with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating some overhead? >> Wouldn't that actually be easier? >> I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. >> >>> >>> -Andrei >>> >>> >>> On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Stefan Priebsch wrote: >>> IMHO backporting a lot of features to PHP4 is a major reasons for the slow PHP5 adoption. Basically, it seems that everybody who is not using OOP feels that PHP4 is fine for them. I'd say committing to backporting stuff from PHP6 to PHP5 will yield a similar situation: very slow or no PHP6 adoption. BTW, can't the unicode switch be done at compile time? So one can compile PHP6 Unicode and PHP6 non-Unicode. Then if there is a clever way of running both engines in parallel, there should be no performance impact inside the non-unicode engine. Since there is both versions of the engine (that can maybe even selected by a certain statement in the main PHP file of the application), unicode and non-unicode users are happy. And there is only one version of PHP in the market, to conquer it all. There must be a reason to upgrade to a new PHP version (usually features, maybe performance increase etc.). But there also must be no reason not to upgrade. But you all know this, it has been said before. Kind regards, Stefan -- > e-novative> - We make IT work for you. e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407 Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch http://www.e-novative.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >>> >>> -- >>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> / >> Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! >> . >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> > > > -- > Some people have a "gift" link here. > Know what I want? > I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. > http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch > Yeah, I get a buck. So? / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Because he's Richard. He always does that. You should see him on php-general. :-) On Wednesday 11 July 2007, Olivier Hill wrote: > Is there a reason why the last 10 messages on this thread are coming from > you? > > It might just be me, but answering in the same email would be great. > > Olivier > > On 7/11/07, Richard Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Seems to me... > > > > Both need to be done. > > > > Do both, or pick one if you can't do both, and somebody else will do > > the other. That's how FLOSS works. :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
>> Unicode code points can be defined with \u, but PHP6 breaks
>> existing octal and hex escape sequences.
I don't understand what this means...
>>>
>>> I think I know...
>>>
>>> I have code like this, somewhere:
>>>
>>> if (preg_match("|[\xF0-\xFF]|", $data)){
>>> $data = un_microsuck($data);
>>> }
>>>
>>> un_microsuck() basically detects and converts any of the goof-ball
>>> extended ASCII from MS products (Word, Outlook, etc) to an HTML
>>> equivalent character.
>>>
>>> But now \xF0 isn't going to be ASCII 128 anymore, is it?
>>
>> \xF0 never was ASCII. ASCII (ISO-646) is 7bit character set. \xF0 is
>> decimal 240. It is 8bit.
>
> Don't tell me.
>
> Tell Microsoft.
>
> Cuz I sure as heck get a LOT of input data >> \x7f and I have to do
> something reasonable with it...
>
> And I did say "extended ASCII" in the other paragraph, after all...
>
>>> Or maybe \xF0 will "work" but the octal \360 won't?
>>
>> Are you sure that you can't do that by setting
>> unicode.something_encoding to iso-8859-1 or windows-1252?
>
> I dunno.
>
> Doesn't really matter if I can't set those in .htaccess, that's for sure.
All unicode. settings except unicode.semantics are PHP_INI_ALL.
>From README.UNICODE
Script Encoding
===
...
If you cannot change the encoding system wide, you can use a pragma to
override the INI setting in a local script:
--
Tomas
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Richard Lynch wrote: > On Tue, July 10, 2007 7:06 pm, Larry Garfield wrote: >> If 90% of the strings in use would work fine if treated as unicode, >> then it >> would make sense to just always assume Unicode unless explicitly >> specified >> otherwise. > > If that 10% includes enough users who have written millions of line of > code in a self-consistent manner that voids ALL their work, you may > want to re-think this 90% number you have chosen... > > And of course you need 2 distinct data types for Unicode and strings. > > What I don't understand is why you'd lock things down so that: > > a) the default "string" is Unicode, breaking XX% of existing applications > > b) the end user can't readily change a) in a huge percentage of > existing install base (read: non-dedicated hosting or mixed-user > servers with shared httpd.conf settings) > > > I realize it's far too late by now to do anything about it, most > likely, but why in the world didn't you just choose a new keyword to > define/declare a string as Unicode? > > And did I dream the thread on this way back when where it was stated > that Unicode was backwards-compatible, so this wouldn't be a problem? > > Yet now it seems that UTF-16 is *not* backwards-compatible, and this > seems like a pretty big problem to me. Richard, you are rather confused on this Unicode stuff. The fact that PHP and ICU uses UTF-16 internally has absolutely nothing to do with what is exposed at the scripting level. The only things that will break in a standard application is stuff that relies on strings being binary. Normal text passing back and forth between the browser and the server will work just fine. The breakages, apart from various bugs at this early stage, are limited to places where the code is expecting to see a binary string and PHP hasn't been able to determine this automatically. And hopefully we can come up with ways to automatically determine when something should default to a binary string. But if you write: $a = "マニュアル"; echo $a[1]; and you expect to have that spew out 0xe3, then yes, it will break because it will result in ニ which is what it really should do. And yes, I know a lot of people reading this list don't care much for other charsets, but people reading an english mailing list are rather self-selecting. -Rasmus -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Is there a reason why the last 10 messages on this thread are coming from you? It might just be me, but answering in the same email would be great. Olivier On 7/11/07, Richard Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Seems to me... Both need to be done. Do both, or pick one if you can't do both, and somebody else will do the other. That's how FLOSS works. :-) On Wed, July 11, 2007 12:33 am, Evert | Rooftop wrote: > One final question.. > > should I assume while converting code "unicode.semantics" is on or > off? > > If its on I would be making sure everything is properly casted to > binary > strings where this is needed, if it's off the focus would be on making > sure the application runs on both PHP5 and PHP6.. > > What makes the most sense here? I would personally say I would try it > assuming its off, as this is the most likely for the development teams > to target for .. > > Evert > > Andi Gutmans wrote: >> I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the >> dev >> team. >> It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document >> issues >> that/common use-cases which are encountered. >> Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such >> purposes? >> Andi >> >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Evert | Rooftop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:40 AM >>> To: Andi Gutmans >>> Cc: Antony Dovgal; Andrei Zmievski; Stas Malyshev; >>> internals@lists.php.net >>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" >>> in PHP 6? >>> >>> Andi Gutmans wrote: >>> >>>> What I really think we need to do for this release, which >>>> >>> we haven't >>> >>>> been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team >>>> which tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds >>>> >>> the issues in >>> >>>> doing this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then >>>> learn from this experience and have good documentation on how to >>>> upgrade to both modes and in some cases, like we have done >>>> >>> in the past >>> >>>> 2-3 weeks, tweak PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is >>>> possible in many cases. >>>> >>>> >>> I'd volunteer for this. Does it help you guys to get started >>> with this today, or should I be waiting till there's more >>> agreement on some of this stuff.. >>> >>> Evert >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wednesday 11 July 2007, Richard Lynch wrote: > And did I dream the thread on this way back when where it was stated > that Unicode was backwards-compatible, so this wouldn't be a problem? > > Yet now it seems that UTF-16 is *not* backwards-compatible, and this > seems like a pretty big problem to me. > > Oh well. I guess I'll just shut up and hope most of my code doesn't > break when I go copying/pasting it into new sites that are locked into > Unicode mode with no way for me to change that... AFAIK, UTF-8 is backward compatible with ASCII. UTF-16 is not. That's why Microsoft defaults to UTF-16 (when they don't default to Windows-1251 or whatever crap it is) and the rest of the universe (at least the parts of it that I've seen) defaults to UTF-8. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Seems to me... Both need to be done. Do both, or pick one if you can't do both, and somebody else will do the other. That's how FLOSS works. :-) On Wed, July 11, 2007 12:33 am, Evert | Rooftop wrote: > One final question.. > > should I assume while converting code "unicode.semantics" is on or > off? > > If its on I would be making sure everything is properly casted to > binary > strings where this is needed, if it's off the focus would be on making > sure the application runs on both PHP5 and PHP6.. > > What makes the most sense here? I would personally say I would try it > assuming its off, as this is the most likely for the development teams > to target for .. > > Evert > > Andi Gutmans wrote: >> I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the >> dev >> team. >> It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document >> issues >> that/common use-cases which are encountered. >> Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such >> purposes? >> Andi >> >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Evert | Rooftop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:40 AM >>> To: Andi Gutmans >>> Cc: Antony Dovgal; Andrei Zmievski; Stas Malyshev; >>> internals@lists.php.net >>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" >>> in PHP 6? >>> >>> Andi Gutmans wrote: >>> >>>> What I really think we need to do for this release, which >>>> >>> we haven't >>> >>>> been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team >>>> which tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds >>>> >>> the issues in >>> >>>> doing this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then >>>> learn from this experience and have good documentation on how to >>>> upgrade to both modes and in some cases, like we have done >>>> >>> in the past >>> >>>> 2-3 weeks, tweak PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is >>>> possible in many cases. >>>> >>>> >>> I'd volunteer for this. Does it help you guys to get started >>> with this today, or should I be waiting till there's more >>> agreement on some of this stuff.. >>> >>> Evert >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, July 10, 2007 11:30 am, Andi Gutmans wrote: > What I really think we need to do for this release, which we haven't > been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team > which > tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds the issues in doing > this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then learn from > this experience and have good documentation on how to upgrade to both > modes and in some cases, like we have done in the past 2-3 weeks, > tweak > PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is possible in many > cases. This all sounds great... Where are all the developers you need going to come from? :-v Is it time yet for, say, the squirrelMail developers to try to run their app in PHP 6 and tell you what all broke? You wanna announce that somewhere and take a flood of bug reports in bugs.php.net? Just tossing out the idea... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, July 9, 2007 5:24 pm, Christopher Jones wrote: > > I also think we shouldn't backport features to PHP5. We should I believe the only serious reason FOR this is if you want to drop the semantics OFF in PHP 6... If getting new features requires upgrading to 6 and taking the Unicode stuff that we theorize will break a great deal of code... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, July 10, 2007 7:06 pm, Larry Garfield wrote: > If 90% of the strings in use would work fine if treated as unicode, > then it > would make sense to just always assume Unicode unless explicitly > specified > otherwise. If that 10% includes enough users who have written millions of line of code in a self-consistent manner that voids ALL their work, you may want to re-think this 90% number you have chosen... And of course you need 2 distinct data types for Unicode and strings. What I don't understand is why you'd lock things down so that: a) the default "string" is Unicode, breaking XX% of existing applications b) the end user can't readily change a) in a huge percentage of existing install base (read: non-dedicated hosting or mixed-user servers with shared httpd.conf settings) I realize it's far too late by now to do anything about it, most likely, but why in the world didn't you just choose a new keyword to define/declare a string as Unicode? And did I dream the thread on this way back when where it was stated that Unicode was backwards-compatible, so this wouldn't be a problem? Yet now it seems that UTF-16 is *not* backwards-compatible, and this seems like a pretty big problem to me. Oh well. I guess I'll just shut up and hope most of my code doesn't break when I go copying/pasting it into new sites that are locked into Unicode mode with no way for me to change that... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, July 11, 2007 3:11 am, Richard Quadling wrote: > On 11/07/07, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Larry Garfield wrote: >> > >> > Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, >> I'd say >> > (unordered): >> > >> > Drupal >> > Squirrelmail >> > WordPress >> > phpMyAdmin >> > MediaWiki >> > Joomla >> > PHPBB I saw a reference in this thread to webhosts that don't upgrade because cPanel didn't work, no? [Larry said that, I think...] So, I dunno, maybe the various panels that all those webhosters use should be a candidate... I mean, they all seem to have those panel thingies, even if I personally use them as rarely as humanly possible... [Talk about making easy things impossible... :-)] I got no idea which ones are the most common, though. -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, July 9, 2007 1:41 pm, Andrei Zmievski wrote: > Once again, you're trying to work with bytes inside Unicode strings, > which just does not make sense. >From our perspective, you've gone and changed a fundamental data structure out from under us, in a non-backwards-compatible way, and broken a whole bunch of working code, for a feature we don't use, and can't turn off [*] This is said without rancor nor animosity, but to explain why we (and many users) are going to have a very high wtf factor with this. * Assuming a shared-host environment budget and external factors make moving to a different host impossible. I think the PHP core developers frequently forget that there are a LOT of PHP developers/users out there with severe budget constraints that just don't have the kinds of resources you are presuming are available to "solve" the problems being created here... I can always find a host who will do what I want with enough effort, but a LOT of users will just give up on PHP 6 and stick with 5 (or 4 even) rather than do that... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, July 9, 2007 3:13 am, Alexey Zakhlestin wrote: > On 7/9/07, Richard Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Anybody who actually NEEDS Unicode ought to be the ones who have to >> type a new keyword or something, not the bazillion users who have no >> need for Unicode and likely never will... > > I wonder whom do you mean here. > I can't remember many non-unicode internet-sites built during the last > 5 years. E. Maybe you've only looked at really humungous corporate sites? Cuz there are a few million sites in the past 5 years that wouldn't know what to do with Unicode if it walked up and bit them... -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, July 9, 2007 3:07 am, Tomas Kuliavas wrote:
> Unicode code points can be defined with \u, but PHP6 breaks
> existing octal and hex escape sequences.
>>>
>>> I don't understand what this means...
>>
>> I think I know...
>>
>> I have code like this, somewhere:
>>
>> if (preg_match("|[\xF0-\xFF]|", $data)){
>> $data = un_microsuck($data);
>> }
>>
>> un_microsuck() basically detects and converts any of the goof-ball
>> extended ASCII from MS products (Word, Outlook, etc) to an HTML
>> equivalent character.
>>
>> But now \xF0 isn't going to be ASCII 128 anymore, is it?
>
> \xF0 never was ASCII. ASCII (ISO-646) is 7bit character set. \xF0 is
> decimal 240. It is 8bit.
Don't tell me.
Tell Microsoft.
Cuz I sure as heck get a LOT of input data >> \x7f and I have to do
something reasonable with it...
And I did say "extended ASCII" in the other paragraph, after all...
>> Or maybe \xF0 will "work" but the octal \360 won't?
>
> Are you sure that you can't do that by setting
> unicode.something_encoding
> to iso-8859-1 or windows-1252?
I dunno.
Doesn't really matter if I can't set those in .htaccess, that's for sure.
[joke type="semi"]
All this working going into Unicode, and nobody is pushing to replace
(CR|CRLF|LF) with a new Unicode all-platform newline character?
[/joke]
--
Some people have a "gift" link here.
Know what I want?
I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch
Yeah, I get a buck. So?
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, July 9, 2007 3:06 am, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >> But now \xF0 isn't going to be ASCII 128 anymore, is it? > > ASCII doesn't have any characters beyond 0x7f AFAIK, but it doesn't > matter, I get what you mean. \xF0 in unicode mode would be U+00F0 of > course. Now how preg_match should handle it depends on preg_match. I should have said "Extended ASCII". And, unfortunately, there are at least 3 commonly-used "Extended ASCII" out there, and, yes, this is exactly what Unicode is trying to solve. Only problem is, the data coming into most web apps is usually NOT UTF-16, nor even UTF-8, but "Windows Extended ASCII" (more or less) and most end users of PHP do not have the luxury of being able to have a dedicated server. So they are going to be stuck with their data getting totally munged into UTF-16 on new PHP installations and, if I'm following this thread correctly, NOT going to be able to get back to the actual data that came IN to their web application. So the ISPs aren't going to install PHP 6 because their users are going to be screaming at them that it broke their applications. Or they'll all install it with this goofy non-Unicode mode, in which case, there's not much point to them having installed it, and y'all will be effectively maintaining 3 branches: PHP 5 PHP 6 ASCII PHP 6 Unicode Unless you drop PHP 6 ASCII, in which case even fewer will bother to install PHP 6, not even in unicode.semantics off mode. Seems to me we're painted into a corner where the number of people who actually install PHP 6 is going to be abysmally small... But maybe I'm just being pessimistic. -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
>> > I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev >> > team. >> > It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document >> issues >> > that/common use-cases which are encountered. >> > Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such >> > purposes? >> > Andi >> >> Is anyone aware of a list with a, say top 10 PHP applications? >> >> When such a wiki is setup, how would you suggest to write such >> documents.. At least a generic guide would be good (e.g.: common >> pitfalls) >> Should I be documenting the per-project specifics as well? >> >> Evert > > Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say > (unordered): > > Drupal > Squirrelmail SquirrelMail 1. remove session_unregister call 2. fix get_magic_quotes_gpc() call 3. Turn off unicode.semantics in webserver configuration or php.ini SquirrelMail scripts are designed to work with binary strings. Lots of SquirrelMail functions are not compatible with unicode.semantics=on. Some calls are not prepared to handle changes in crc32(), base64_encode(), fputs() and fwrite(). If scripts keep backwards compatibility, they will need wrappers for most of affected string and stream functions. Some unicode.semantics=on side effects can be fixed without splitting functions between PHP5 and PHP6, but unicode.script_encoding can't be set with ini_set() and must be declared on top of all affected scripts. -- Tomas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 10:24 +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > this and IIRC the only opposition has always been Rasmus that insists > that things like this should be in CVS (yes I know we have a todo > file in CVS). But it seems to me like most internals developers have > showed their preference to a wiki with their "feet". Last time I checked there were 3 different TODO files in CVS. And none of them were up-to-date.. --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:20:44 -0400, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Larry Garfield wrote: >> >> Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say >> (unordered): >> >> Drupal >> Squirrelmail >> WordPress >> phpMyAdmin >> MediaWiki >> Joomla >> PHPBB >> > > That will keep me busy =) > > Evert I'm not attempting to overload you or anything here. But you'll probably want to add the XOOPS and NUKE family of CMS's here also. As they've been around forever and have quite a following. Best wishes. > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 10:21 +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > we tried to get most of the top php OSS projects into the primary > testers group: > http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP4yz > http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP5yz > http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP6yz Emphasis on word "tried" ? :D Is there some procedure to follow for releases regarding those testers anyway? --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 11.07.2007, at 00:02, Andi Gutmans wrote: I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev team. It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues that/common use-cases which are encountered. Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such purposes? Well I have been asking for a wiki for quite some time. currently a lot of the release management runs on the OSS wiki of my old company: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PHPTODO/ Once we have the wiki on php.net servers we could more easily integrate the login management etc. It makes absolute sense to have this and IIRC the only opposition has always been Rasmus that insists that things like this should be in CVS (yes I know we have a todo file in CVS). But it seems to me like most internals developers have showed their preference to a wiki with their "feet". regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 11.07.2007, at 07:15, Larry Garfield wrote: On Tuesday 10 July 2007, Evert | Rooftop wrote: Andi Gutmans wrote: I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev team. It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues that/common use-cases which are encountered. Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such purposes? Andi Is anyone aware of a list with a, say top 10 PHP applications? When such a wiki is setup, how would you suggest to write such documents.. At least a generic guide would be good (e.g.: common pitfalls) Should I be documenting the per-project specifics as well? Evert Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say (unordered): Drupal Squirrelmail WordPress phpMyAdmin MediaWiki Joomla PHPBB And I run out of steam here. :-) That's just my guess, though. Probably a better place to look would be to see what is commonly pre-installable or pre-installed at shared hosts. phpMyAdmin and Squirrelmail seem to be everywhere. WordPress, Drupal, Joomla, and PHPBB seem to turn up in "free scripts!" lists a lot. we tried to get most of the top php OSS projects into the primary testers group: http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP4yz http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP5yz http://oss.backendmedia.com/PhP6yz regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 11/07/07, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Larry Garfield wrote: > > Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say > (unordered): > > Drupal > Squirrelmail > WordPress > phpMyAdmin > MediaWiki > Joomla > PHPBB > That will keep me busy =) Evert Would it also be worth checking some of the frameworks too? Prado, eZ, Zend? -- - Richard Quadling Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731 "Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!" -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Am 11.07.2007 um 07:20 schrieb Evert|Rooftop: Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say (unordered): Drupal Squirrelmail WordPress phpMyAdmin MediaWiki Joomla PHPBB hey, and what about TYPO3? ;-) Honestly, I've tried the current version of TYPO3 (4.x) with PHP6 and as it seems it is not very difficult adapting it. Most of the errors were of type E_STRICT and with unicode.semantics off it probably needs few changes because we don't rely on PHP functions for unicode support. I'm currently working on TYPO3 5.0 which comes with a new codebase specifically written for PHP6 and I agree with Nicolas, that the unicode.semantics switch spoils the fun a little. We just have to hope that enough hosting companies offer PHP6 based webspaces with unicdode.semantics turned on. And if they don't, we'll have to start an initiative and ask hosters specifically to offer such a product. Robert -- http://typo3.org/gimmefive -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
One final question.. should I assume while converting code "unicode.semantics" is on or off? If its on I would be making sure everything is properly casted to binary strings where this is needed, if it's off the focus would be on making sure the application runs on both PHP5 and PHP6.. What makes the most sense here? I would personally say I would try it assuming its off, as this is the most likely for the development teams to target for .. Evert Andi Gutmans wrote: I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev team. It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues that/common use-cases which are encountered. Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such purposes? Andi -Original Message- From: Evert | Rooftop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:40 AM To: Andi Gutmans Cc: Antony Dovgal; Andrei Zmievski; Stas Malyshev; internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6? Andi Gutmans wrote: What I really think we need to do for this release, which we haven't been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team which tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds the issues in doing this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then learn from this experience and have good documentation on how to upgrade to both modes and in some cases, like we have done in the past 2-3 weeks, tweak PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is possible in many cases. I'd volunteer for this. Does it help you guys to get started with this today, or should I be waiting till there's more agreement on some of this stuff.. Evert -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Larry Garfield wrote: Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say (unordered): Drupal Squirrelmail WordPress phpMyAdmin MediaWiki Joomla PHPBB That will keep me busy =) Evert -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tuesday 10 July 2007, Evert | Rooftop wrote: > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev > > team. > > It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues > > that/common use-cases which are encountered. > > Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such > > purposes? > > Andi > > Is anyone aware of a list with a, say top 10 PHP applications? > > When such a wiki is setup, how would you suggest to write such > documents.. At least a generic guide would be good (e.g.: common pitfalls) > Should I be documenting the per-project specifics as well? > > Evert Top 10 by what metric? If I had to guess based on market share, I'd say (unordered): Drupal Squirrelmail WordPress phpMyAdmin MediaWiki Joomla PHPBB And I run out of steam here. :-) That's just my guess, though. Probably a better place to look would be to see what is commonly pre-installable or pre-installed at shared hosts. phpMyAdmin and Squirrelmail seem to be everywhere. WordPress, Drupal, Joomla, and PHPBB seem to turn up in "free scripts!" lists a lot. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:55:30 -0400, Evert | Rooftop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andi Gutmans wrote: >> I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev >> team. >> It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues >> that/common use-cases which are encountered. >> Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such >> purposes? >> Andi >> >> > Is anyone aware of a list with a, say top 10 PHP applications? FWIW I spent quite a bit of time trying to find the best WIKI and found DokuWiki - http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:dokuwiki To be the best in all areas. Really easy to setup and maintain too. Just thought I'd pass it along. > > When such a wiki is setup, how would you suggest to write such > documents.. At least a generic guide would be good (e.g.: common pitfalls) > Should I be documenting the per-project specifics as well? > > Evert > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Andi Gutmans wrote: I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev team. It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues that/common use-cases which are encountered. Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such purposes? Andi Is anyone aware of a list with a, say top 10 PHP applications? When such a wiki is setup, how would you suggest to write such documents.. At least a generic guide would be good (e.g.: common pitfalls) Should I be documenting the per-project specifics as well? Evert -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Monday 09 July 2007, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
> > Do _I_ like that horrible IS_STRING/IS_UNICODE mess we have atm? No.
>
> I don't think there's any way of having both unstructured character data
> and Unicode text represented without having two distinct types. Either
> that or you'd have to tell on each step which one it is, and that would
> suck much more.
>
> > I would love to have clean and easy PHP6 without all the
> > "compatibility", which creates gazillion problems to both users and
> > developers.
>
> Fixing unicode=on does not remove the IS_STRING/IS_UNICODE duality. We
> still have two kinds of data - unstructured bit stream and structured
> text. If we want strlen("превед") to return 6 - since that Russian word
> has 6 characters - then we have no way but recognize that it's not just
> a collection of bits but Unicode text, and that would require separate
> type, as I see it. And as I see it, this is the source of the problems
> when people try to operate on text as on bit stream and vice versa.
>
> Unless I totally missed what mess you are referring to...
I am coming into this discussion decidedly late here, so please thwap me
gently if this is a FAQ. Do we have any idea of what percentage of strings
in the "wild" would break if treated as Unicode vs. not?
If 90% of the strings in use would work fine if treated as unicode, then it
would make sense to just always assume Unicode unless explicitly specified
otherwise.
If 90% of the strings in use would die if treated as Unicode, then Unicode
should probably be the exception and only when explicitly defined.
I'm not liking the ghosts of magic_quotes I'm seeing implied here with
different modes for the server to be in. That sounds like it would make
writing code that works the same everywhere and is not ugly to read (crapload
of markers or lots of conditionals) quite difficult.
As I said, feel free to assuage my fear if appropriate. :-)
--
Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea,
which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to
himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession
of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas
Jefferson
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RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
I think the sooner the better as it's valuable information for the dev team. It'd probably be a good idea to have a Wiki where we can document issues that/common use-cases which are encountered. Maybe we should have a Wiki on one of the php.net servers for such purposes? Andi > -Original Message- > From: Evert | Rooftop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:40 AM > To: Andi Gutmans > Cc: Antony Dovgal; Andrei Zmievski; Stas Malyshev; > internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" > in PHP 6? > > Andi Gutmans wrote: > > What I really think we need to do for this release, which > we haven't > > been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team > > which tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds > the issues in > > doing this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then > > learn from this experience and have good documentation on how to > > upgrade to both modes and in some cases, like we have done > in the past > > 2-3 weeks, tweak PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is > > possible in many cases. > > > I'd volunteer for this. Does it help you guys to get started > with this today, or should I be waiting till there's more > agreement on some of this stuff.. > > Evert > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 2007-07-09 at 19:38 -0700, Andi Gutmans wrote: > Btw, I don't know how many of you have actually tried to port PHP 5 apps > to PHP 6 but it's quite a disaster. We made some fixes in the past 2-3 > weeks and its getting better but it still requires a lot of work. If we > don't make this easy then this is all not worth too much. I'd prefer if we would fix the failing tests with make test first. These tests already show some problems we might have which might require some general improvement. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Andi Gutmans wrote: What I really think we need to do for this release, which we haven't been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team which tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds the issues in doing this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then learn from this experience and have good documentation on how to upgrade to both modes and in some cases, like we have done in the past 2-3 weeks, tweak PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is possible in many cases. I'd volunteer for this. Does it help you guys to get started with this today, or should I be waiting till there's more agreement on some of this stuff.. Evert -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
I was thinking a bit more about this yesterday. Even if I'd agree with this discussion (which I don't at this point in time) I think it is being had far too early. We currently have a very big problem with ability to upgrade to PHP 6 and making decisions without people actually getting their feet wet and seeing what the issues are is not a good idea. Purist decisions tend to fail when they meet the real world. What I really think we need to do for this release, which we haven't been good at doing in the past, is build a PHP Compatibility Team which tries to port many applications to PHP 6 and finds the issues in doing this port (both with unicode_semantics=on/off). We can then learn from this experience and have good documentation on how to upgrade to both modes and in some cases, like we have done in the past 2-3 weeks, tweak PHP 6 to not break backwards compatibility. It is possible in many cases. It's something we are willing to spend time on and as I mentioned already started to do but it would really require a larger amount of volunteers to pick various apps and do it. This kind of information would be far more valuable to the project at this point than a prolonged thread about a piece of software which isn't finish (and would also give more information for a discussion like the one we've been having). No one really knows how good/bad of a situation we are at right now. I know from my end it doesn't look great yet. Andi > -Original Message- > From: Andi Gutmans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:39 PM > To: Antony Dovgal; Andrei Zmievski > Cc: Stas Malyshev; internals@lists.php.net > Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" > in PHP 6? > > The large amount of the dual IS_UNICODE/IS_STRING will need > to stay in the code base anyway as we will be supporting > binary strings in PHP 6. > So it's not accurate that all these maintance issues will be > resolved by not supporting unicode_semantics=off. > > I believe unlike what Andrei said, for a large community of > ours (probably the majority) default unicode_semantics=on > will not be of interest (we don't live in a purists world). > Many won't want to run it because it's going to be > significantly slower and will be harder for them to work > with. This community will be best served to be able to run in > native 8bit mode and having some Unicode functionality > available if/when needed. Having dual mode in PHP 6 is not > the same as forking two code bases. There is still like > namespaces automatically reach both audiences. > > If we're talking from a pure "what is most useful to the > majority of our users" I'd actually argue that explicit > Unicode strings would be the most convenient, i.e. instead of > doing b"8bitstring" you'd do U"unicodestring". Other > languages do the same and there are reasons for that. As > we've decided on a more aggressive (and risky) approach, I > think having this dual mode is extremely important. It will > also make the upgrade path easier. > > Btw, I don't know how many of you have actually tried to port > PHP 5 apps to PHP 6 but it's quite a disaster. We made some > fixes in the past 2-3 weeks and its getting better but it > still requires a lot of work. If we don't make this easy then > this is all not worth too much. > > This project has never been a purists project which is why > it's been so successful, let's not start now... > > Andi > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To > unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Derick Rethans schrieb: > You can do that with fastcgi and lighttpd, not with apache. (With how much effort) could it be made possible with Apache? Deciding on unicode and non-unicode PHP at compile time and -optionally- running two engines in parallel could IMHO ease some performance issues and also make the code easier to maintain. Kind regards, Stefan -- >e-novative> - We make IT work for you. e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407 Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch http://www.e-novative.de -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, Alexey Zakhlestin wrote: > On 7/10/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You can do that with fastcgi and lighttpd, not with apache. > > not true. you can do that with ANY server which uses fastcgi (apache > can do that too!) > > Actualy, I believe fastcgi-mode should get some "advertising" from > php.net as it really have its advantages You're right - didn't think of that, but then again, it was a sneak commercial for lighttpd ;-) Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 7/10/07, Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You can do that with fastcgi and lighttpd, not with apache. not true. you can do that with ANY server which uses fastcgi (apache can do that too!) actualy, I believe fastcgi-mode should get some "advertising" from php.net as it really have its advantages -- Alexey Zakhlestin http://blog.milkfarmsoft.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:39:10 +0200 (CEST), Derick Rethans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, chris# wrote: > >> On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP 6 >> > adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. >> > >> > There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in >> > separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. >> >> Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines >> side-by-side with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating >> some overhead? Wouldn't that actually be easier? I could have sworn I >> saw that somewhere. > > You can do that with fastcgi and lighttpd, not with apache. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't wish to sound argumentative. But I have discovered; while it won't work with Linux (others?), it does work on *BSD with Apache. The difference is in the way libraries are loaded - DL. I found quite a long article where someone shared their experimentation attempting it. The responses from 100's of others all stated it didn't work for them. The one thing all the failures all had in common was that their OS was some Linux distro. Thanks again for the response. > > Derick > > -- > Derick Rethans > http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:02:15 +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 10.07.2007, at 01:19, chris# wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP 6 >>> adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. >>> >>> There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in >>> separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. >> >> Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines side-by- >> side >> with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating some overhead? >> Wouldn't that actually be easier? >> I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. >> > > maybe someone could make runkit really fast .. *nudge* DOH! I've been using PHP since it was invented and /can/ /not/ believe I didn't see this. I'm looking at it now. Looks intriguing. What's your experience with it? Thanks for the pointer/response! > > regards, > Lukas / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Nicolas Bérard-Nault wrote: > Permit me to give my 2 cents on that and share my small bit of experience > with PHP 6. > > First of all, I totally agree with you Antony. I'm currently working on > deploying a big codebase in PHP 6 (for those of you who didn't know, I'm the > GSoC student working on refactoring Jaws for PHP 6) and my head started to > ache when I began understanding all the complications of the unicode > implementation as it is right now. Basically, having that > unicode.semanticsPHP_INI switch just totally kills the fun because I > have to have a working > application if it is ON or OFF. Why? Just state that it only works when it is turned ON - I am pretty sure that that's the way we'll go. > Long story short, this forces me to > explicitly define each string as either binary or unicode, which doesn't > make any "PHP sense". It's actually the first time I'm forced to explicitly > specify a variable type in PHP and I'm not sure I'm the only one who's not > happy about this. I like the unicode support and really appreciate all the > work that's been done on it but I absolutely think it should be implemented > without that headache/pain in the ass switch that'll make transition even > tougher for everyone. That I agree with :) Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, chris# wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP 6 > > adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. > > > > There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in > > separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. > > Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines > side-by-side with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating > some overhead? Wouldn't that actually be easier? I could have sworn I > saw that somewhere. You can do that with fastcgi and lighttpd, not with apache. Derick -- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl | http://ez.no | http://xdebug.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On 10.07.2007, at 01:19, chris# wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP 6 adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines side-by- side with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating some overhead? Wouldn't that actually be easier? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. maybe someone could make runkit really fast .. *nudge* regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
The large amount of the dual IS_UNICODE/IS_STRING will need to stay in the code base anyway as we will be supporting binary strings in PHP 6. So it's not accurate that all these maintance issues will be resolved by not supporting unicode_semantics=off. I believe unlike what Andrei said, for a large community of ours (probably the majority) default unicode_semantics=on will not be of interest (we don't live in a purists world). Many won't want to run it because it's going to be significantly slower and will be harder for them to work with. This community will be best served to be able to run in native 8bit mode and having some Unicode functionality available if/when needed. Having dual mode in PHP 6 is not the same as forking two code bases. There is still like namespaces automatically reach both audiences. If we're talking from a pure "what is most useful to the majority of our users" I'd actually argue that explicit Unicode strings would be the most convenient, i.e. instead of doing b"8bitstring" you'd do U"unicodestring". Other languages do the same and there are reasons for that. As we've decided on a more aggressive (and risky) approach, I think having this dual mode is extremely important. It will also make the upgrade path easier. Btw, I don't know how many of you have actually tried to port PHP 5 apps to PHP 6 but it's quite a disaster. We made some fixes in the past 2-3 weeks and its getting better but it still requires a lot of work. If we don't make this easy then this is all not worth too much. This project has never been a purists project which is why it's been so successful, let's not start now... Andi -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Hi, On Mon, 2007-07-09 at 15:33 -0700, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > Fixing unicode=on does not remove the IS_STRING/IS_UNICODE duality. We > still have two kinds of data - unstructured bit stream and structured > text. But we still have the mess that most internal structures (function tables, class tables, ...) either hold an IS_STRING or IS_UNICODE depending on a configuration option - just check the amounts of UG(unicode)?IS_UNICODE:IS_STIRNG (that one even got a macro ZEND_STR_TYPE) kind of checks - these make the code way harder to read and maintain. And again: It is as easy to run PHP 5 and PHP 6 on the same host as PHP 6 with unicode and PHP 6 w/o so I can't see a BC benefit of that setting but I can see that this gives us two products with the same name - PHP 6. And that's bad. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:38:03 -0700, Andrei Zmievski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, backporting major features from PHP 6 to 5 will slow down PHP 6 > adoption, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. > > There is a way to run two engines side by side, by the way: in > separate instances of Apache. It's really not that complicated. Isn't there some evidence of the ability to run two engines side-by-side with only one instance of Apache; thereby eliminating some overhead? Wouldn't that actually be easier? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. > > -Andrei > > > On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Stefan Priebsch wrote: > >> IMHO backporting a lot of features to PHP4 is a major reasons for the >> slow PHP5 adoption. Basically, it seems that everybody who is not >> using >> OOP feels that PHP4 is fine for them. >> >> I'd say committing to backporting stuff from PHP6 to PHP5 will yield a >> similar situation: very slow or no PHP6 adoption. >> >> BTW, can't the unicode switch be done at compile time? So one can >> compile PHP6 Unicode and PHP6 non-Unicode. Then if there is a >> clever way >> of running both engines in parallel, there should be no performance >> impact inside the non-unicode engine. Since there is both versions of >> the engine (that can maybe even selected by a certain statement in the >> main PHP file of the application), unicode and non-unicode users are >> happy. And there is only one version of PHP in the market, to >> conquer it >> all. >> >> There must be a reason to upgrade to a new PHP version (usually >> features, maybe performance increase etc.). But there also must be no >> reason not to upgrade. But you all know this, it has been said before. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Stefan >> >> -- >>> e-novative> - We make IT work for you. >> >> e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407 >> Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch >> >> http://www.e-novative.de >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php / Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! . -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
I also think we shouldn't backport features to PHP5. We should (i) keep PHP5 a stable release with a known feature set for developers to use. (ii) have a smaller code base to maintain in PHP5, reducing the overhead of merging. (iii) avoid exacerbating the future situation with uptake of PHP6 vs PHP5 that we now face with PHP5 vs PHP4. Chris Andrei Zmievski wrote: > And I think that we shouldn't, since it removes a big incentive for > people to move to PHP 6. > > Really, we need to get folks to use Unicode natively as much as > possible. It is the way of the future, and not some "obscure feature", > as some here have suggested. This kind of attitude is precisely why > we've had and continue to have such an internationalization mess when it > comes to building applications. > > -Andrei > > > On Jul 6, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Antony Dovgal wrote: > >> On 06.07.2007 20:44, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: You don't by a Porsche if you need a taxi, why would you install PHP6 if you don't need Unicode? >>> Namespaces ;) >> This reason is only valid if we don't backport such things from PHP6 >> to PHP5 (5.3, 5.5 or whatever it would be), which I think we should do. >> >> --Wbr, Antony Dovgal -- Christopher Jones, Oracle Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: +1 650 506 8630 Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Antony Dovgal kirjoitti: On 10.07.2007 01:48, Andrei Zmievski wrote: And I think that we shouldn't, since it removes a big incentive for people to move to PHP 6. I don't really see much sense in forcing people to use PHP6 if we accept the "PHP5 = PHP6 - Unicode" formula. They are just different things, period. Really, we need to get folks to use Unicode natively as much as possible. Andrei, I personally don't need Unicode at all. I know, that may sound weird, but that's true. This kind of attitude is precisely why we've had and continue to have such an internationalization mess when it comes to building applications. What attitude are you talking about here? I'm trying to be honest with myself in the first place. Do _I_ like that horrible IS_STRING/IS_UNICODE mess we have atm? No. Do _I_ want to maintain this mess in the future just because of some bad design decision in the past? Noway, we had enough of that already. I would love to have clean and easy PHP6 without all the "compatibility", which creates gazillion problems to both users and developers. Please notice that I didn't call Unicode useless crap or whatever others may think about it, I just want PHP6 to be Unicode-only release because it would make my personal life much easier without complicating others' lives. Thank you Antony. This is exactly how I think too. --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] What is the use of "unicode.semantics" in PHP 6?
Do _I_ like that horrible IS_STRING/IS_UNICODE mess we have atm? No.
I don't think there's any way of having both unstructured character data
and Unicode text represented without having two distinct types. Either
that or you'd have to tell on each step which one it is, and that would
suck much more.
I would love to have clean and easy PHP6 without all the
"compatibility", which creates gazillion problems to both users and
developers.
Fixing unicode=on does not remove the IS_STRING/IS_UNICODE duality. We
still have two kinds of data - unstructured bit stream and structured
text. If we want strlen("превед") to return 6 - since that Russian word
has 6 characters - then we have no way but recognize that it's not just
a collection of bits but Unicode text, and that would require separate
type, as I see it. And as I see it, this is the source of the problems
when people try to operate on text as on bit stream and vice versa.
Unless I totally missed what mess you are referring to...
--
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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