Re: [realXtend] Website Expired !

[Toni Alatalo]

Our wordpress started working actually right after I had posted that reply
:)

My post to tell you people about the meeting on coming Monday afternoon is
now visible again:
https://realxtend.org/2016/09/06/open-meeting-on-mon-12th/

pasting here for convenience:

---

realXtend Association has an open members meeting on the coming Monday the
12th at 13:00 EET. In Oulu in the center and also on-line if people from
elsewhere want to join!

We focus on the use of realXtend and other 3D and multiuser application
technologies. Especially to identify development needs that can then
proposed to be funded by the realXtend Foundation.
---

I'll be posting updates about specifics if there is interest for the online
access, or the live meet in Oulu (we haven't fixed the place for that yet
as depends on the amount).

CEO/CTO folks from realXtend users such as Valo Company & Finpeda are
coming, and OTOH post doc researchers from the University of Oulu's UbiComp
3D city etc. team. Anyone is welcome, membership in the association is free
(and it basically is this mailing list & the blog, plus the codes in github
etc. of course). Private replies to this mail are fine for joining in now
as am organizing this meet.

Sorry for the delayed note, wanted actually the website to work first too.
There's a calendar event for convenience as well, the desc there is in
Finnish but the English version you saw here already:
https://calendar.google.com/calendar/render?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=b2htcW50amRtY2R2cWI5ZzVidjNmMWd0NG8gcmY4NDRoanFqb2I4OTU1cmcxNmxrZzhqajRAZw&tmsrc=rf844hjqjob8955rg16lkg8...@group.calendar.google.com&sf=true&output=xml#eventpage_6

late summer regards,
~Toni (+358-40-7198759)

On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Toni Alatalo  wrote:

> Yes sorry, the person taking care of it had had the credit card stolen -
> is fixing it, done soon I expect
>
> Greetings from Nokia 5G demo day BTW,  realXtend is featured with the Oulu
> center model :)
>
> On 7 Sep 2016 11:40, "Lord"  wrote:
>
> The website, realxtend.org has expired at Wordpress (
> realxtend.wordpress.com ) .
>
> --
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> ---
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Re: [realXtend] Website Expired !

[Toni Alatalo]

Yes sorry, the person taking care of it had had the credit card stolen - is
fixing it, done soon I expect

Greetings from Nokia 5G demo day BTW,  realXtend is featured with the Oulu
center model :)

On 7 Sep 2016 11:40, "Lord"  wrote:

The website, realxtend.org has expired at Wordpress (
realxtend.wordpress.com ) .

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[realXtend] Fwd: [New post] 3D Web & Open Data Hackathon using realXtend and Meshmoon

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi - I posted a quick heads up of the Open Data & Smart Cities hackathon
that we're running now using realXtend and Meshmoon, and a little
preliminary info of other smart cities & realXtend related activities too.

-- Forwarded message --
From: realXtend 
Date: Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 11:36 AM
Subject: [New post] 3D Web & Open Data Hackathon using realXtend and
Meshmoon
To: t...@playsign.net


   toni.alatalo posted: "An intense week of realXtend based app development
is going on here in Oulu now! As a part of the 7th Summer School on
Ubiquitous Computing organized by the UBI (UrBan Interactions) research
program, I and Cvetan & Koste from Adminotech are running a "Respond to
this post by replying above this line
  New post on *realXtend*
  3D Web & Open Data Hackathon
using realXtend and Meshmoon

by
toni.alatalo 

An intense week of realXtend based app development is going on here in Oulu
now! As a part of the 7th Summer School on Ubiquitous Computing organized
by the UBI (UrBan Interactions) research program, I and Cvetan & Koste from
Adminotech are running a hackathon with prof. Ojala. Focus of the hackathon
is open Open […]

Read more of this post

  *toni.alatalo * | 10/06/2015 at
06:36 | Categories: news  | URL:
http://wp.me/p1xiiJ-9B

 Comment

   See all comments

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[realXtend] Fwd: [Bf-committers] Blender on Steam!

[Toni Alatalo]

just for info, interesting how that move seems to work out:


-- Forwarded message --
From: Ton Roosendaal 
Date: Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 11:29 AM
Subject: [Bf-committers] Blender on Steam!
To: bf-blender developers 


Hi all,

After like two years of trying to get it organized via others, I just
held my breath and took a deep dive in the tedious paperwork and forms
procedures to get an app on Steam published! In the end paperwork is
my main job nowadays anyway :)

Martijn Berger did the essential work of getting Blender compiled and
submitted according to steam specs.

Result now is that we have the first version on Steam (windows, the
rest is following soon).
http://store.steampowered.com/app/365670/

The response and traffic on Steam is enormous, it looks like this page
on steam gets more traffic than the blender.org frontpage... :)

-Ton-


Ton Roosendaal  -  t...@blender.org   -   www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation - Producer Blender Institute
Entrepotdok 57A  -  1018AD Amsterdam  -  The Netherlands



___
Bf-committers mailing list
bf-committ...@blender.org
http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers

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[realXtend] Fwd: [UBISS 2015] Third Call for Students to "3D WEB AND OPEN DATA FOR SMART CITIES HACKATHON" (application deadline March 20, 2015)

[Toni Alatalo]

FYI a realXtend based Summer School by the University of Oulu next June.


-- Forwarded message --
From: Timo Ojala 
Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:11 PM
Subject: [UBISS 2015] Third Call for Students to "3D WEB AND OPEN DATA
FOR SMART CITIES HACKATHON" (application deadline March 20, 2015)
To: oulu3d...@ee.oulu.fi


[apologies for any cross-postings]



UBISS 2015 - 6th International UBI Summer School 2015

Oulu, Finland, June 8-13, 2015

http://www.ubioulu.fi/en/UBISS2015



Application deadline: March 20, 2015.



UBISS 2015 - the 6th International UBI Summer School 2015 - will be
held in Oulu, Finland, on June 8-13, 2015. The UBI summer school
provides young researchers and professionals with an opportunity to
gain hands on experience and insight on selected topics on the
multidisciplinary fields of ubiquitous computing and urban informatics
under the tutelage of distinguished experts. While the summer school
is primarily targeted for doctoral candidates (postgraduate students),
undergraduate students, postdoctoral researchers, and industry and
public sector professionals are also welcome to attend. UBISS 2015
builds on the legacy of the previous five highly successful UBI summer
schools held in Oulu in 2010-2014.



UBISS 2015 comprises of four parallel 6-day workshops.



Workshop D: 3D WEB AND OPEN DATA FOR SMART CITIES HACKATHON



Maximum number of students to be enrolled to the workshop: 24



In recent years 3D graphics has become a more feasible and a more
important part of the multimedia experience in the world wide web.
Today, WebGL allows rendering interactive 3D graphics in modern web
browsers with GPU acceleration. Application development for 3D web is
enticed by the facts that (1) web browsers are available for all major
platforms including mobile devices, and (2) a web application
typically does not require the user to install or update any software
or libraries other than the web browser. A number of 3D web
applications have been developed for various domains from information
visualization to games, architecture and cultural heritage. This
hackathon style workshop focuses on the particular application domain
of “smart cities”, where 3D virtual city models are coupled with open
data sources (e.g. traffic, weather sensors, IoT) into novel prototype
applications using 3D web technologies.



The workshop first provides an overview of the 3D web technology
landscape, including WebGL, three.js, the basics of 3D modeling
applications (Blender, SketchUp), and the workflow from creation to
runtime engines. A special emphasis is placed on the technologies
developed in Oulu, i.e. the realXtend open source platform for
creating real-time networked multi-user 3D environments, the FIWARE
Advanced Web-based User Interface Generic Enablers, and the Meshmoon
hosting service for creating and hosting multi-user 3D spaces for
free. To bootstrap the hacking, the workshop participants are provided
with the “Virtual Oulu” 3D model of downtown Oulu and a number of open
data sources. In terms of 3D UI devices, the participants have access
to Oculus Rift VR headsets and a CAVE. The participants are grouped
into project teams of 3-4 students that each brainstorm, design and
implement their own prototype, including 3D web programming, 3D
content production and 3D UI design. For an example of such a
prototype, check out the “Virtual Helsinki” FIWARE demo exploiting
multiple FIWARE Generic Enablers. The source code of the prototype is
available at https://github.com/playsign/fidemo/ and is licensed as
open source for the code and with creative commons licenses for
graphics.



Prospective students should have expertise in at least one of the
following areas: 3D web programming, 3D content production, 3D UI
design.



The project teams producing particularly “successful” prototypes will
be offered the opportunity to (1) to “sell” their prototype for
real-world deployment in “Virtual Oulu” for a one-time fee, and (2)
collaborate with the University of Oulu researchers on conducting a
field trial for the purpose of collecting research data on their
prototype.



Coordinator: Professor Timo 'Timppa' Ojala, University of Oulu, Finland



Timo "Timppa" Ojala is a Professor of Computer Science at the
Department of Computer Science and Engineering at the University of
Oulu, Finland. Timppa leads the Urban Computing and Cultures research
group and the UBI (UrBan Interactions) research program that have
conducted a longitudinal and multidisciplinary study of ubiquitous
computing systems with real users in authentic urban setting at the
Open UBI Oulu civic laboratory deployed at downtown Oulu. This "in the
wild" exploration commenced over ten years ago and has imposed a
visible and lasting change on the Oulu cityscape in form of the
city-wide panOULU WLAN network providing open and free wireless
Internet access to the general public, and the UBI-hotspots, the
network of large interactive public displays deployed 

Re: [realXtend] Potential EU H2020 project to further develop cyber-physical environments for learning (CYPLE)

[Toni Alatalo]

Greetings and thanks for info!

Sounds interesting -- perhaps there are some possible partners here.
Feel free to mention your interest here too if you want but of course
fine too if only contact and proceed privately etc.

One note: we'll be adding at least basic audio support to the web
client in the foreseeable future (have promised it in the FIWARE
context).

Good luck with the effort an thanks again for noting here :)

~Toni

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Tarmo Toikkanen
 wrote:
> Hi all! I work at Aalto University and we're cobbling together a consortium
> for an H2020 call that will look at furthering the state-of-art in virtual
> environments. This means 3D immersive environments with proper soundscapes,
> physical walking around the environment, 3D glasses, interacting with the
> environment, and so on.
>
> If someone from the RealXtend community might be interested in participating
> as an SME, please contact me directly at tarmo.toikkanen ät aalto.fi with
> subject like "CYPLE SME collaboration" and I can give you more information.
> The project plan is still being molded, so you have the chance to affect
> what will be done. But certainly pedagogical understanding of really
> meaningful learning is an essential, and capabilities in producing virtual
> environments (design, graphics, implementation) are a valuable asset to
> have.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Tarmo Toikkanen
> http://legroup.aalto.fi
>
> --
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
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[realXtend] bootcamp event schedule

[Toni Alatalo]

realxtend folks will be in the series of fiware bootcamps around
Europe in the coming weeks - posted to the blog but copy-pasting it
here as well, for your convenience i hope :)

http://realxtend.org/2014/09/20/7-training-events-around-europe-in-fiware-startup-weekends/

---cut---
7 Training Events Around Europe in FIWARE Startup Weekends

Here are the times and places of the bootcamps / FIWARE Startup
Weekends which referred to in the earlier post about the app dev
funding. We do the part on Advanced Web UIs.

Basic info copy-pasted below from the FIWARE site, see there for more info.

October 2-5
Germany: Hamburg
Italy: Milan

October 16-19
Germany: Berlin
France: Sophia-Antipolis
Spain: Valencia

November 13-16
Portugal: Lisbon
France: Rennes

Each of these events will be structured as follows:

Two full-day Bootcamp providing training on main FIWARE Generic Enablers.
A Startup Weekend event focused on FIWARE
---end---

folks from Adminotech, Ludocraft, Cyberlightning, Playsign and DFKI
will be there for the 3d, geographical, network and virtual & mixed
reality & AR plus internet-of-things techs.

A unique chance now I think to get dev coaching for making your own
apps from experienced realxtend devs possibly near where live.. if
someone is curious down there in the south :) (DFKI is in Germany and
covers the events there but we know each others techs pretty well by
now).

Cheers,
~Toni

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[realXtend] Fwd: [New post] realXtend in EU Future Internet initiative - 80 million funding for application dev

[Toni Alatalo]

http://realxtend.org/2014/09/16/realxtend-in-eu-future-internet-initiative-80-million-funding-for-application-dev/

Flight leaving to Munich now..

-Toni

Välitetty viesti:

> Lähettäjä: realXtend 
> Päiväys: September 16, 2014 at 7:28:22 AM GMT+3
> Vastaanottaja: t...@playsign.net
> Aihe: [New post] realXtend in EU Future Internet initiative – 80 million 
> funding for application dev
> Vastaus: "realXtend" 
> 
> 
> Respond to this post by replying above this line
> New post on realXtend
> 
> 
> realXtend in EU Future Internet initiative – 80 million funding for 
> application dev
> by toni.alatalo
> Base technologies from realXtend, including the WebTundra HTML5 client and 
> the Tundra server, and geographical information servers (POI, GIS), are now 
> included in EU's catalog of so-called generic enablers for future internet 
> application development. Today, the EU FI initiative is launching an open 
> call for app developers: a whopping >80M euros is there for startup […]
> 
> Read more of this post
> 
> toni.alatalo | 16/09/2014 at 02:28 | Categories: news | URL: 
> http://wp.me/p1xiiJ-8f
> Comment  See all commentsLike
> Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from realXtend.
> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions.
> 
> Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: 
> http://realxtend.org/2014/09/16/realxtend-in-eu-future-internet-initiative-80-million-funding-for-application-dev/
> Thanks for flying with  WordPress.com
> 

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Fri 12 (Re: [realXtend] realXtend association annual meet)

[Toni Alatalo]

closed the doodle now too, it showed Fri 12 as the only time that suited 
everyone who put an entry

---
I have picked "Friday, April 4, 2014 12:00 PM (Time zone: Helsinki)" as final 
option(s) for the Doodle poll "realXtend association members' meet."

Follow this link to open the poll:
http://doodle.com/3f4ww5uk2f9xdxuy
--

Cheers,
~Toni

On 24 Mar 2014, at 16:59, Toni Alatalo  wrote:

> Looks like Fri as I commented in the doodle. Please come Antti! :)
> 
> Lähetetty iPhonesta
> 
> Antti Ilomäki  kirjoitti Mar 23, 2014 kello 11:42 PM:
> 
>> Was there an agreement on the meeting time?
>> 
>> 
>> 2014-03-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Toni Alatalo :
>> Greetings - first the main point:
>> 
>> let's have an official members' meeting for the realXtend association. As 
>> usual in assoc. annual meets the agenda is to agree on the main principles 
>> and select the board to execute the operations. I propose we'd meet in a bit 
>> over two weeks, first days of April - candidate times are in the doodle: 
>> http://doodle.com/3f4ww5uk2f9xdxuy . So please mark your interest to 
>> participate & suitable times there!
>> 
>> Some background: realXtend is organised so that people and companies 
>> developing and using the tech have the association as a tool to coordinate 
>> the collaboration and to propose development targets for the realXtend 
>> foundation. The association is open for anyone to join and much of the 
>> discussions are on these mailing lists and especially the IRC channel 
>> #realxtend-dev. The association does not have any money nor projects itself, 
>> it just is the collaboration talks and the actual dev on github etc. Earlier 
>> we had monthly live meets and now, during the FI-WARE EU project where most 
>> of the companies around realXtend participate (and get funded), we've had 
>> bi-weekly Oulu face-to-face technical meetings where often also generic 
>> realXtend tech dev targets have been agreed on.
>> 
>> The foundation, on the other hand, exists to own and protect the name and 
>> fund selected development activities. Juha Hulkko is the chairman and City 
>> of Oulu is the other founder. Now the concrete need for the association to 
>> organise more formally is exactly to make a proposal for the foundation 
>> funding for this year.
>> 
>> Also, in the tech meets and in fi-ware we only have the base tech platform 
>> parties (Admino, Ludocraft, Playsign, Cyberlightning, CIE) whereas for the 
>> development targets we need voices from the utilisation front: Spinningwire, 
>> Oulu3D, Evocons, UKI-Arkkitehdit, Finnpeda, Aalto Univ., Univ. Oulu's 
>> infra-project etc. who work directly with end customers and focus on 
>> applications only, don't dev the base techs directly at all. In this annual 
>> meet and following association board meets the focus is not on tech first 
>> but on business level needs. So please feel welcome.
>> 
>> I propose to meet at the Mäkelininkatu 15 street level 'realxtend space' 
>> (it's a common lobby / kitchen / work space between Playsign's basement and 
>> Adminotech's upstairs :) where we've had also the fi-ware meets usually, 
>> with the option of having e.g. a Meshmoon meeting space open for notes and 
>> remote participants if needed. Last time we met virtually using reX techs 
>> and it worked great but is nice to have meatspace meets too.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> ~Toni
>> 
>> P.S. I'll post a status update of the Web clients soon (within days) to the 
>> realxtend.org blog. Short version is that the situation is great because 
>> they work: anyone can visit Meshmoon scenes using WebRocket on 
>> http://www.meshmoon.com, and anyone can dev realXtend i.e. multiuser 3d apps 
>> using WebTundra and host them anywhere on the Web using 
>> https://github.com/realXtend/WebTundra (the dev branch is made to a new 
>> release soon and recommended, 
>> https://github.com/realXtend/WebTundra/tree/dev) . Three.js, WebGL and 
>> browsers in general keep developing nicely (Chrome on Android has WebGL 
>> enabled by default, Internet Explorer has it in the new version etc). But 
>> more about that soon.
>> 
>> --
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "realXtend" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to realxtend+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more o

Re: [realXtend] realXtend association annual meet

[Toni Alatalo]

Looks like Fri as I commented in the doodle. Please come Antti! :)

Lähetetty iPhonesta

> Antti Ilomäki  kirjoitti Mar 23, 2014 kello 11:42 PM:
> 
> Was there an agreement on the meeting time?
> 
> 
> 2014-03-09 12:39 GMT+02:00 Toni Alatalo :
>> Greetings - first the main point:
>> 
>> let's have an official members' meeting for the realXtend association. As 
>> usual in assoc. annual meets the agenda is to agree on the main principles 
>> and select the board to execute the operations. I propose we'd meet in a bit 
>> over two weeks, first days of April - candidate times are in the doodle: 
>> http://doodle.com/3f4ww5uk2f9xdxuy . So please mark your interest to 
>> participate & suitable times there!
>> 
>> Some background: realXtend is organised so that people and companies 
>> developing and using the tech have the association as a tool to coordinate 
>> the collaboration and to propose development targets for the realXtend 
>> foundation. The association is open for anyone to join and much of the 
>> discussions are on these mailing lists and especially the IRC channel 
>> #realxtend-dev. The association does not have any money nor projects itself, 
>> it just is the collaboration talks and the actual dev on github etc. Earlier 
>> we had monthly live meets and now, during the FI-WARE EU project where most 
>> of the companies around realXtend participate (and get funded), we've had 
>> bi-weekly Oulu face-to-face technical meetings where often also generic 
>> realXtend tech dev targets have been agreed on.
>> 
>> The foundation, on the other hand, exists to own and protect the name and 
>> fund selected development activities. Juha Hulkko is the chairman and City 
>> of Oulu is the other founder. Now the concrete need for the association to 
>> organise more formally is exactly to make a proposal for the foundation 
>> funding for this year.
>> 
>> Also, in the tech meets and in fi-ware we only have the base tech platform 
>> parties (Admino, Ludocraft, Playsign, Cyberlightning, CIE) whereas for the 
>> development targets we need voices from the utilisation front: Spinningwire, 
>> Oulu3D, Evocons, UKI-Arkkitehdit, Finnpeda, Aalto Univ., Univ. Oulu's 
>> infra-project etc. who work directly with end customers and focus on 
>> applications only, don't dev the base techs directly at all. In this annual 
>> meet and following association board meets the focus is not on tech first 
>> but on business level needs. So please feel welcome.
>> 
>> I propose to meet at the Mäkelininkatu 15 street level 'realxtend space' 
>> (it's a common lobby / kitchen / work space between Playsign's basement and 
>> Adminotech's upstairs :) where we've had also the fi-ware meets usually, 
>> with the option of having e.g. a Meshmoon meeting space open for notes and 
>> remote participants if needed. Last time we met virtually using reX techs 
>> and it worked great but is nice to have meatspace meets too.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> ~Toni
>> 
>> P.S. I'll post a status update of the Web clients soon (within days) to the 
>> realxtend.org blog. Short version is that the situation is great because 
>> they work: anyone can visit Meshmoon scenes using WebRocket on 
>> http://www.meshmoon.com, and anyone can dev realXtend i.e. multiuser 3d apps 
>> using WebTundra and host them anywhere on the Web using 
>> https://github.com/realXtend/WebTundra (the dev branch is made to a new 
>> release soon and recommended, 
>> https://github.com/realXtend/WebTundra/tree/dev) . Three.js, WebGL and 
>> browsers in general keep developing nicely (Chrome on Android has WebGL 
>> enabled by default, Internet Explorer has it in the new version etc). But 
>> more about that soon.
>> 
>> --
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "realXtend" group.
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[realXtend] realXtend association annual meet

[Toni Alatalo]

Greetings - first the main point:

let's have an official members' meeting for the realXtend association. As usual 
in assoc. annual meets the agenda is to agree on the main principles and select 
the board to execute the operations. I propose we'd meet in a bit over two 
weeks, first days of April - candidate times are in the doodle: 
http://doodle.com/3f4ww5uk2f9xdxuy . So please mark your interest to 
participate & suitable times there!

Some background: realXtend is organised so that people and companies developing 
and using the tech have the association as a tool to coordinate the 
collaboration and to propose development targets for the realXtend foundation. 
The association is open for anyone to join and much of the discussions are on 
these mailing lists and especially the IRC channel #realxtend-dev. The 
association does not have any money nor projects itself, it just is the 
collaboration talks and the actual dev on github etc. Earlier we had monthly 
live meets and now, during the FI-WARE EU project where most of the companies 
around realXtend participate (and get funded), we've had bi-weekly Oulu 
face-to-face technical meetings where often also generic realXtend tech dev 
targets have been agreed on.

The foundation, on the other hand, exists to own and protect the name and fund 
selected development activities. Juha Hulkko is the chairman and City of Oulu 
is the other founder. Now the concrete need for the association to organise 
more formally is exactly to make a proposal for the foundation funding for this 
year.

Also, in the tech meets and in fi-ware we only have the base tech platform 
parties (Admino, Ludocraft, Playsign, Cyberlightning, CIE) whereas for the 
development targets we need voices from the utilisation front: Spinningwire, 
Oulu3D, Evocons, UKI-Arkkitehdit, Finnpeda, Aalto Univ., Univ. Oulu's 
infra-project etc. who work directly with end customers and focus on 
applications only, don't dev the base techs directly at all. In this annual 
meet and following association board meets the focus is not on tech first but 
on business level needs. So please feel welcome.

I propose to meet at the Mäkelininkatu 15 street level 'realxtend space' (it's 
a common lobby / kitchen / work space between Playsign's basement and 
Adminotech's upstairs :) where we've had also the fi-ware meets usually, with 
the option of having e.g. a Meshmoon meeting space open for notes and remote 
participants if needed. Last time we met virtually using reX techs and it 
worked great but is nice to have meatspace meets too.

Cheers,
~Toni

P.S. I'll post a status update of the Web clients soon (within days) to the 
realxtend.org blog. Short version is that the situation is great because they 
work: anyone can visit Meshmoon scenes using WebRocket on 
http://www.meshmoon.com, and anyone can dev realXtend i.e. multiuser 3d apps 
using WebTundra and host them anywhere on the Web using 
https://github.com/realXtend/WebTundra (the dev branch is made to a new release 
soon and recommended, https://github.com/realXtend/WebTundra/tree/dev) . 
Three.js, WebGL and browsers in general keep developing nicely (Chrome on 
Android has WebGL enabled by default, Internet Explorer has it in the new 
version etc). But more about that soon.

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[realXtend] off-topic: Playsign's Wizard Quest now in Appstore

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi, and apologies for abusing the list for an off-topic shameless self 
promotion! I hope it is interesting enough :)

Our first mobile game Wizard Quest is now finally available world-wide in the 
iOS Appstore, for a special $1 price as a part of the launch campaign. See the 
website for more info, including gameplay videos etc: http://www.managiant.com/ 
(Mana Giant is Playsign's daughter company for game publishing).

It is a single player game (albeit with shared leaderboard) and 2d so does not 
utilize realXtend technologies currently. We are still planning on making the 
next version multiplayer (at least async, if not realtime (yet)) and looking 
forward to benefitting from the realXtend platform then. 

In fact as a part of the EU FI-WARE work we've made a minimal test game with 
the web client techs, a n-player Pong, which we use to verify that realXtend is 
fit for our arcade style action games. It is also documented as a tutorial for 
multiplayer game making, we'll get to publish that doc soon as it's now being 
reviewed by the EU project folks. So more info of that soon, for the impatient 
there's already a standalone single player + multiplayer peer-to-peer (with 
WebRTC) version on-line at 
http://playsign.tklapp.com:8000/PongThreeJS/Pong.html, video of that in 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR05_6kh5Dw and the codes in 
https://github.com/playsign/PongThreeJS (the port of the original proto to 
Tundra server & WebTundra client is in the 'ec' branch there, we'll put a demo 
of that up once get a public Tundra server hosted suitably). 

In the meantime iOS device owners please do enjoy our epic puzzle wizard spell 
action! (we've also tested Android builds but those are not ready yet)

Cheers,
~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] Utilization of semantic data in realXtend

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 18, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Jari Kahelin  wrote:
> I'm pretty new to realXtend and virtual world platforms generally. I started 
> in a research project short time ago which relates to usage of semantic data 
> in virtual world platforms. Reading through the realXtend documentation and 
> testing the platform myself, it seems that there is not a way to add metadata 
> to the objects nor reflect the relationships between the objects.

In Tundra you can add arbitrary data to objects easily using the 
DynamicComponent component type, 
http://doc.meshmoon.com/doxygen/webrocket/classes/tundra.EC_DynamicComponent.html

For a specific type of custom data you can also create a new EC type and define 
a static set of attributes for that. This is currently only possibly with C++ 
code but perhaps in the future we'll provide easier means for that too (like 
just declaring the type with a JSON declaration or via some JS API).

> Jari

~Toni

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[realXtend] opensim & realxtend: meeting tools in the opensim community conf prep session

[Toni Alatalo]

Long title but a quite brief note:

As mentioned earlier our talk about realxtend & opensim dev was accepted to the 
upcoming opensim conference, organised on opensim itself which I find great.

Yesterday there was a speakers Q&A, a couple of remarks regarding meeting / 
presenting tools:

There was a nice setup for presenters, similar to earlier opensim confs and 
what admino & spinningwire have made on Tundra. Speaker goes to podium and gets 
control of the big display etc.

Two important features were mentioned lacking, which we would have on the 
realXtend side:

1. Web page display is not synchronised. It is shared, the presenter can open a 
view and others see it, but no actions with the page get synched. So if you 
want to show a page where you do something, you must just ask the audience to 
do the same.

2. No voice moderation. Hence the organisers, based on previous experience, are 
just going to disable in-world voice all-together. Someone in the audience 
would forget their mic on anyway. The talk is made via Skype so that it's 
streamed like radio to the world. IIRC again the Admino-Spinningwire meeting 
tools, or is it even in the default Meshmoon voice tools, have the option for a 
moderator to silence any participant.

I think the situation is quite like the classic VHS and Beta video in history. 
One is better technology but the other is what is used. That all is a longer 
discussion (and we can have it here, perhaps as a part of the conference 
session too) but I don't time for it right now, just wanted to make this 
remark. Shortly put I think the reasons are: 

a) People are sticking with opensim as they already use it, now it, their 
friends use it etc.

b) It is ready with the basics as open source so you can just start running 
your home or school server -- whereas with realXtend now you'd have to 
configure more yourself (to e.g. setup avatar app, chat and voice) and you'd 
still miss authentication, and all your apps and guis would be poorer than on 
Meshmoon as they have their enhanced proprietary versions etc., so not many 
people do it and are perhaps easily disappointed if they try.

It still stands that the opensim land is with many problems, the reasons why we 
quit using and developing it + sl based viewer. I think we still have a chance 
with reX for virtual worlds if we are clever but otherwise probably something 
else comes later and takes over .. or miraculously in the opensim+slviewer 
slowly develop to be good, like they already have improved (meshes, web page 
display (MOAP) etc). Meshmoon hosting caters for a certain (perhaps even the 
largest) audience but not for the opensim crowd -- hobbyists and school admins 
who want / need to run their own servers (at least when building and 
experimenting, then they perhaps move to hosting).

This thinking is (obviously?) focusing on the SL-type VW usage, not about using 
Tundra or other reX things as a plain SDK to make a game or so (in that 
discussion we need to contrast with unity+netplugins, not opensim).

~Toni

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[realXtend] Opensim conference: reX proposal & load testing (Fwd: [Opensim-dev] OpenSimulator Community Conference Needs Participants for Grid Load Test 7/2/13 @ Noon PDT)

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

Opensimulator folks are organizing 1st community conference in early
September, in-world on Opensimulator itself -- I find that's a great
idea.

I just submitted a proposal from a realXtend point of view, let's see
whether they find it appropriate or not (i.e. whether it is about
opensim or not):
https://github.com/realXtend/doc/blob/master/opensim2013/submission.txt

They organize a load test today for the grid where plan to host the
conference - I'm gonna be on the night train to Helsinki so probably
can't join but if some of you have a chance please do help them to get
load..

Generic info about the conf is at
http://conference.opensimulator.org/

Cheers,
~Toni

-- Forwarded message --
From: Fleep Tuque 
Date: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 2:46 PM
Subject: [Opensim-dev] OpenSimulator Community Conference Needs
Participants for Grid Load Test 7/2/13 @ Noon PDT
To: opensim-us...@lists.berlios.de, opensim-...@lists.berlios.de,
Opensim Educators Mailing List 


Hi folks,


We are planning a large-scale load test of the OpenSimulator Community
Conference grid on Tuesday, July 2, 2013 at Noon PDT and we need
members of the community to help push the conference grid to its
limits to test the capacity and performance of the simulator software
and hardware.


Anyone interested in the conference or the OpenSimulator software is
welcome to participate in the load test by making a jump from any
other hypergrid enabled OpenSimulator grid.  The focus of this load
test will be fitting as many hypergrid participants on the keynote
regions of the conference grid as possible.


The OpenSimulator Community Conference grid is located in the
7000,7000 coordinate range, and the four keynote regions we’ll be
testing are:


cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 1

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 2

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 3

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 4


If you find that the first region you try is full please use the next
address on the list and so on.


For the purposes of this load test, feel free to log in with multiple
avatars, but please do not use bots, pcampbots, or other various
libomv based viewers since we are trying to test the conference grid
under conditions as close to the actual conference as possible.  We
recommend a Third Party Viewer that can support voice and mesh, such
as Singularity, Firestorm, or Kokua.


Instructions if you already have a Hypergrid enabled account


If you already have an account on another OpenSimulator grid that is
hypergrid enabled, here are the steps to participate in the load test
on Tuesday:


1.  Log into your account on your hypergrid enabled grid.


2.  If necessary, navigate to a jump region that can reach a
destination in the 7000,7000 coordinate range.  OSGrid provides public
jump regions for this purpose, see the list at
http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/hypergrid.


3.  Open your map and search for one of the following destination regions:


cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 1

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 2

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 3

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 4


4.  The map search should locate the destination region on the map,
then click the Teleport button.  If you find that the first region you
try is full please use the next address on the list and so on.


Instructions if you need a Hypergrid enabled account


If you don’t already have an account on another OpenSimulator grid
that is hypergrid enabled, here are the steps to participate in the
load test on Tuesday:


1.  Create an account on OSGrid at
http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/auth/register.


2.  Download a TPV viewer supported by OSGrid from
http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/downloads and log into your account.


3.  Open your map and search for one of the following destination regions:


cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 1

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 2

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 3

cc.opensimulator.org:8002:Keynote 4


4.  The map search should locate the destination region on the map,
then click the Teleport button.  If you find that the first region you
try is full please use the next address on the list and so on.


Thanks in advance for your help and we look forward to seeing a big
crowd on Tuesday!



- Chris/Fleep




Chris M. Collins (Avatar: Fleep Tuque)

Vice President, AvaCon, Inc.

275 Winthrop Street

PO Box 618

Rehoboth, MA 02769-1819

(774) 654-0010

i...@avacon.org

http://avacon.org


AvaCon, Inc. is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to
promoting the growth, enhancement, and development of the metaverse,
virtual worlds, augmented reality, and 3D immersive and virtual
spaces. We hold conventions and meetings to promote educational and
scientific inquiry into these spaces, and to support organized fan
activities, including performances, lectures, art, music, machinima,
and much more. Our primary goal is to connect and support the diverse
communities and practitioners involved in co-creating and using
virtual worlds, and

Re: [realXtend] reX assoc board meet: focus on creation tools

[Toni Alatalo]

On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 13:30 -0500, Peter C. wrote:
> In regards to the game dev aspect: I'm sorry if that came off the wrong
> way, it was just the google doc read a little more like "this is an
> academic project, the focus is on professional use and not games, end of
> story". Sorry if I misinterpreted that. Also, in regards to Ogitor, I

Right, well it's me who has to be sorry for writing it too unclearly
there I'm afraid.

Actually the strategy we hope to drive now in the research cooperation
with the university here etc. is that out of the academic work we would
get concrete improvements to the tech which would really help e.g. game
creation.

> was thinking more build some sort of plug-in that would allow for using
> Ogitor functionality in Tundra as an in-scene editor. Also, for torque,

Right, that's what I was also wondering early on -- especially because
also Ogitor uses Qt like Tundra does, might be possible to somehow hook
Ogitor to be a Tundra plugin or something even (but not totally
straightfoward, because Ogitor uses the Ogre API directly, whereas to
integrate in Tundra nicely it'd need to be ported to the Tundra API
which wraps Ogre).

> I have to do some more research in to it, however the main two things
> that come to mind are possibly implementing the ability to easily
> transition from Torque to Tundra. The main problem I see with Torque is
> it is based on the old multiple inheritance methods, and is a pain to
> work with when you start needing custom functionality. There are

Right - the entity-component model in Tundra has certainly proven to be
a nice strong point, has served great for extensibility in practice, is
easy to understand I think etc.

> easy inter-op. Ideally it would be a collaboration between the RealXtend
> association and GarageGames to create the best of both worlds, but I
> doubt that would happen. If nothing else, my main concern would be the
> need to implement similar DCC as torque's editor in to RealXtend, along

Interesting - it might be a far call, but it is also good to brainstorm
with an open mind sometimes.

BTW didn't they open source something recently, was it torque3d runtime
or what?

> I think that the primary things that RealXtend could benefit from would
> be better documentation of how to develop for it beyond basic scripting

Agreed. As you noted, Meshmoon docs helped already, but certainly much
is still urgently needed.

I think we need tech dev too but certainly creating those docs must be
somehow organized finally.

> out to places like Ogre, and having an Ogre wiki page and link to
> realxtend in the Ogre wiki for 3rd party projects using Ogre, would

*nod* -- I think the time is certainly ripe to submit Tundra as a
candidate featured project for the Ogre site. Feel free to do it, anyone
basically, but I think I must if no one else beats me to it (should not
be hard..)

Thanks again for the good points and welcome reminders (I wasn't
recalling Ogitor and Torque too clearly at all, have been quite occupied
with many other things recently too).

~Toni

> On 01/09/2013 01:05 PM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> > On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 10:22 -0500, Peter C wrote:
> >> Just a few suggestions / things to note.
> > Thanks - quick comments:
> >> 1. Even if the primary intent is not games, it would be wise to
> >> develop with the same performance mindset of a game engine. Long term
> >> viability as a platform requires keeping up with tech.
> > We certainly keep that up -- both Ludocraft and Playsign are games
> > companies, the requirements from us (e.g. Ludo's old creation tool doc,
> > the mobile tundra plan etc) are largely from games dev perspective).
> >
> > Sometimes it is more difficult for us to get a good understanding of the
> > *other* requirements, other apps besides games :)
> >
> > If you are referring to the remark in the google doc, it tries to say
> > that reX is essentially about *networked multiplayer games* (or other
> > multiuser apps) out of the box, is inherently networked, whereas e.g.
> > Unity3D was originally for single player games (though has many mature
> > ways to do networking nowadays with 3rd party addons and has basics
> > builtin too).
> >
> >> 2. It might be wise to try porting ogitor to run inside realXtend. If
> >> nothing else make an exporter from ogitor to tundra. It may also be
> >> wise to look at how torque has their dcc set up. 
> > Yes we looked at Ogitor back in the early days when considering options,
> > I was repeatedly showing it to the guys in sprint meetings etc .. and
> > read some of their code when considering editing things in Naali/Tundra
> > etc.
> >
> > Both Tundra and Ogitor support the 

Re: [realXtend] reX assoc board meet: focus on creation tools

[Toni Alatalo]

On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 10:22 -0500, Peter C wrote:
> Just a few suggestions / things to note.

Thanks - quick comments:
> 
> 1. Even if the primary intent is not games, it would be wise to
> develop with the same performance mindset of a game engine. Long term
> viability as a platform requires keeping up with tech.

We certainly keep that up -- both Ludocraft and Playsign are games
companies, the requirements from us (e.g. Ludo's old creation tool doc,
the mobile tundra plan etc) are largely from games dev perspective).

Sometimes it is more difficult for us to get a good understanding of the
*other* requirements, other apps besides games :)

If you are referring to the remark in the google doc, it tries to say
that reX is essentially about *networked multiplayer games* (or other
multiuser apps) out of the box, is inherently networked, whereas e.g.
Unity3D was originally for single player games (though has many mature
ways to do networking nowadays with 3rd party addons and has basics
builtin too).

> 2. It might be wise to try porting ogitor to run inside realXtend. If
> nothing else make an exporter from ogitor to tundra. It may also be
> wise to look at how torque has their dcc set up. 

Yes we looked at Ogitor back in the early days when considering options,
I was repeatedly showing it to the guys in sprint meetings etc .. and
read some of their code when considering editing things in Naali/Tundra
etc.

Both Tundra and Ogitor support the old simple Ogre dotscene format so
they might be interoperable already, i.e. you might be able to import
Ogitor authored scenes to Tundra. When I tried dotscene things in Ogitor
0.3 some 2-3(?) years ago, though, got only some crash then, dunno about
the status of dotscene vs. their own format there -- certainly worth a
new look, it always has seemed like a good project.
> 
> 3. It may be a good idea to look at porting torques functionality to
> tundra. I was recently doing research on torque, and they have a
> massive community, but their architecture is really bad. Don't count
> out game developers as a possible audience. If you were to outreach to
> game developers, and they were to get involved in improving the game
> engine side of things, it would benefit the academic side too. Games
> tend to be one of the biggest driving forces of technology. 

Yes, I actually tested it for some reason last year a little and thought
there were nice things, certainly also worth more study.

Scripting / Logic authoring has been my pet peeve for long, and still
kind of sold with the Scratch design for very simple things at least
(for kids and non-programmers), and both Google Blockly and Waterbear
would seem to allow it nicely for Tundra-JS.

Do you have some things in specific in mind about Torque, does it cover
everything a bit like Unity, dealing with assets etc? I'm recalling the
game maker things with events and states and something for logic etc,
hopefully have time for a study soon enough (or someone else has).

~Toni
> 
> Cheers, 
> Peter 
> 
> t...@playsign.net wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> we had a semiofficial(*) realXtend association board meeting
> yesterday, mostly to discuss and organize further planning on
> development roadmap for the new year.
>  
> My full notes are on-line, main point summarized here: We
> decided to plan work on two fronts, creation tools and
> pipelines coming as a new primary focus. The other area is the
> tech platform & engines topic which was already worked on a
> lot last already (the realXtend roadmap doc from last spring
> discusses the three areas there, i.e. current Tundra, browser
> based clients and the Mobile Tundra unified light client
> idea).
>  
> For the creation tools and pipeline we agreed to gather
> wishes, requirements and development proposals and meet again
> on Thursday next week (17th)  to put together a plan.
> Ludocraft made one report on this already ages ago, they’ll
> check if parts of it are still valid. Francois will talk with
> Matteo and Francois from Spinningwire and ENER labs.
> Adminotech has some concrete needs, I think largely coming
> from VW use in education. I think Evocons at least can tell
> what they need in their work with the building industry.
>  
> You, anyone, can also use this chance to inform the planning:
> what would you need to be able to create applications, worlds
> or whatever with realXtend better, or is that even a
> bottleneck for you now? Even vague ideas are welcome but the
> more concrete a plan the better of course.
>  
> Some things discussed in the meeting: more example assets for
> e.g. use of different materials / options of the SuperShader,
> creating a new shader library. Better scene/ec editor with
> groupi

Re: [realXtend] Re: interactive web view to server side Tundra rendering

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 17, 2012, at 2:53 PM, Lasse Annola wrote:
> said was preferred and launched my apache web server. The server seems to 
> work flawlessly but still no connection when using port 8886. Im now starting 
> to wonder if the tundrahttphandler or
(...)
> it runs the code cos i get the print inside init() in tundrahttphandler.

I think this may be a firewall issue, as the server code runs, but does not 
answer http requests.

Windows has firewalls by default -- I would test either adding Tundra & that 
port to some whitelist there, or simply turning all firewalling off. One way to 
test without firewall safely is to disconnect from Internet first (unplug cable 
or turn off wlan), and then just use the box locally (accessing 127.0.0.1 i.e. 
localhost doesn't require external connectivity). And perhaps do 'run as admin' 
for good measure.

Other possibility is that it is some crossplat issue, as I've tested this on 
Linux only now, but usually Python standard library things (this is built on 
asyncore which is there) work very reliably on all operating systems. I could 
test at least the httpserver part on windows to verify (it can be also ran 
without Tundra as a standalone py server so is easy to test). The old Tundra1 
version of this worked well on win, but that was using a different lib for 
async http (circuits).

> Lasse

~Toni

> On Monday, 15 October 2012 13:27:54 UTC+3, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> On Oct 14, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Lasse Annola wrote:
>> Ive got my worldwebview cloned with tundra and the screenshot_server 
>> variable is my local ip: 127.0.0.1:8886/renderimg. I don't know should i 
>> change that renderimg to something else but i
> 
> That 'renderimg' should stay, it is the URL / http get command that the 
> Tundra server has for rendering images (it gets the camera position & 
> orientation as parameters, and returns the URL of the resulting image). You 
> can see the tundrahttphandler.py to see how it's implemented if want.
> 
>> figured its part of the servers functionality so didn't touch anything 
>> regarding that. I then copied that file into my apache htdocs folder to have 
>> it on my server. Then i changed from tundrahttphandler.py the clienthtml = 
>> open("xampp/htdocs/worldwebview.html"), for it to find it. Now as i run 
>> http://127.0.0.1/worldwebview.html via chrome, it opens the file but ERROR + 
>> some placement variables come to the "console" on the left. I tried opening 
>> my firewall but it did not have any effect (trying this locally so it 
>> shouldnt anyway). I'm really running out of options here, ill continue by 
>> setting everything to default.
> 
> Ah there seems to be a little confusion here: you don't need to copy any html 
> to the Apache folder. The system works so that it is *Tundra* itself that 
> replies to the first http requests, not Apache. This is why you access 
> http://127.0.0.1:8886/client and not the default port -- that Tundra http 
> handler listens to port 8886 by default. What you say above works if you have 
> the 'xampp' folder inside your Tundra bin directory (which I suppose you 
> don't). That is, the open() command is executed inside Tundra and it searches 
> relative to the dir where you run Tundra.exe
> 
> So you should do it like in the readme: "So to make the default config work, 
> just have your Tundra git clone and WorldWebView git clone side by side in 
> the same directory. (so from tundra/bin/, ../../worldwebview/ is found)".  If 
> you wan't to put worldwebview.html to some other place, you can just change 
> that open() command use that absolute filepath. I see now that using the url 
> '/client' can be confusing to access a file named worldwebview.html (that's 
> what the code does: when Tundra is asked for 'client', it reads that html 
> from the filesystem and returns it in the http reply). You can also test with 
> http://127.0.0.1:8886/ -- that one does not need worldwebview.html (the smart 
> client where you can move etc), but simply returns the current view from 
> Tundra (creates a html which has img with src set to the apache-served image 
> that it created).
> 
> Apache (or any other web server for static files) is only used to transfer 
> the images, after the call to Tundra has generated them (that 'renderimg' 
> http handler does that). It would be also possible to have Tundra itself 
> return the actual image data too, and the tundra1 version of this thing had 
> that option too, but in practice it seemed that using a normal separate web 
> server is better for that in actual production setups so I skipped that 
> option now.
> 
>> Lasse
> 
> ~Toni
&g

Re: [realXtend] Re: interactive web view to server side Tundra rendering

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 14, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Lasse Annola wrote:
> Ive got my worldwebview cloned with tundra and the screenshot_server variable 
> is my local ip: 127.0.0.1:8886/renderimg. I don't know should i change that 
> renderimg to something else but i

That 'renderimg' should stay, it is the URL / http get command that the Tundra 
server has for rendering images (it gets the camera position & orientation as 
parameters, and returns the URL of the resulting image). You can see the 
tundrahttphandler.py to see how it's implemented if want.

> figured its part of the servers functionality so didn't touch anything 
> regarding that. I then copied that file into my apache htdocs folder to have 
> it on my server. Then i changed from tundrahttphandler.py the clienthtml = 
> open("xampp/htdocs/worldwebview.html"), for it to find it. Now as i run 
> http://127.0.0.1/worldwebview.html via chrome, it opens the file but ERROR + 
> some placement variables come to the "console" on the left. I tried opening 
> my firewall but it did not have any effect (trying this locally so it 
> shouldnt anyway). I'm really running out of options here, ill continue by 
> setting everything to default.

Ah there seems to be a little confusion here: you don't need to copy any html 
to the Apache folder. The system works so that it is *Tundra* itself that 
replies to the first http requests, not Apache. This is why you access 
http://127.0.0.1:8886/client and not the default port -- that Tundra http 
handler listens to port 8886 by default. What you say above works if you have 
the 'xampp' folder inside your Tundra bin directory (which I suppose you 
don't). That is, the open() command is executed inside Tundra and it searches 
relative to the dir where you run Tundra.exe

So you should do it like in the readme: "So to make the default config work, 
just have your Tundra git clone and WorldWebView git clone side by side in the 
same directory. (so from tundra/bin/, ../../worldwebview/ is found)".  If you 
wan't to put worldwebview.html to some other place, you can just change that 
open() command use that absolute filepath. I see now that using the url 
'/client' can be confusing to access a file named worldwebview.html (that's 
what the code does: when Tundra is asked for 'client', it reads that html from 
the filesystem and returns it in the http reply). You can also test with 
http://127.0.0.1:8886/ -- that one does not need worldwebview.html (the smart 
client where you can move etc), but simply returns the current view from Tundra 
(creates a html which has img with src set to the apache-served image that it 
created).

Apache (or any other web server for static files) is only used to transfer the 
images, after the call to Tundra has generated them (that 'renderimg' http 
handler does that). It would be also possible to have Tundra itself return the 
actual image data too, and the tundra1 version of this thing had that option 
too, but in practice it seemed that using a normal separate web server is 
better for that in actual production setups so I skipped that option now.

> Lasse

~Toni

> 
> On Thursday, 4 October 2012 11:22:31 UTC+3, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 08:13 -0700, Lasse Annola wrote: 
> > I would be interested in trying this, in case you have time to make an 
> > readme. 
> 
> Sure! There's first take: 
> https://github.com/realXtend/worldwebview/#readme 
> 
> I think all the required steps for installation and configuration are 
> covered there -- do ask if/when there's probs, and feel free to improve 
> the docs too if want. 
> 
> You have been using the websocket support also, so hopefully already 
> have a Tundra2 build with Python support, so all should be easy. Admino 
> is interested in getting this to use in their hosting system, and they 
> use windows servers, so we may need to update the windows deps for py 
> too (also websocket support may be required by Admino hosting soon and 
> that may also still require py support as well). 
> 
> > Lasse 
> 
> ~Toni 
> 
> > On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:29:03 UTC+3, Toni Alatalo wrote: 
> > The old 'virtual webcam' / screenshot server / server side 
> > rendering is 
> > back, now with Tundra2! 
> > 
> > Live demo, running the physics2 demo scene from the Tundra 
> > repository: 
> > http://www.kadonnutkaupunki.net:8886/client 
> > 
> > Clicking on the main image rotates view, so that the point 
> > you 
> > click/touch is put to center of the view. Arrowkeys can be 
> > used to move. 
> > 
> >  

Re: [realXtend] Re: interactive web view to server side Tundra rendering

[Toni Alatalo]

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 08:13 -0700, Lasse Annola wrote:
> I would be interested in trying this, in case you have time to make an
> readme.

Sure! There's first take:
https://github.com/realXtend/worldwebview/#readme

I think all the required steps for installation and configuration are
covered there -- do ask if/when there's probs, and feel free to improve
the docs too if want.

You have been using the websocket support also, so hopefully already
have a Tundra2 build with Python support, so all should be easy. Admino
is interested in getting this to use in their hosting system, and they
use windows servers, so we may need to update the windows deps for py
too (also websocket support may be required by Admino hosting soon and
that may also still require py support as well).

> Lasse

~Toni

> On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:29:03 UTC+3, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> The old 'virtual webcam' / screenshot server / server side
> rendering is 
> back, now with Tundra2! 
> 
> Live demo, running the physics2 demo scene from the Tundra
> repository: 
> http://www.kadonnutkaupunki.net:8886/client 
> 
> Clicking on the main image rotates view, so that the point
> you 
> click/touch is put to center of the view. Arrowkeys can be
> used to move. 
> 
> Clicking on the map works to set the position, the coordinates
> are 
> perhaps a bit weird now (the default view direction in that
> scene is to 
> south considering the map, so clicking the pos north from the
> center 
> shows you the middle part). 
> 
> Your camera position is stored on the client side (the
> browser), so any 
> number of people can move around in the scene without
> interfering each 
> other (as if they all had their own cameras). 
> 
> This is the same old client that we developed already 2-3
> years ago, 
> first browser based view to realXtend worlds, before WebGL or
> anything 
> existed. Is the simplest and lightest thing for the client
> side, as the 
> client shows just images -- was nice also for phones and
> tablets back 
> then. There is no new functionality yet, just a port of the
> old thing to 
> current tundra2. 
> 
> The html+canvas2d client side project is 
> https://github.com/realXtend/worldwebview 
> 
> Server side counterpart is 
> 
> https://github.com/antont/tundra/blob/httpserver/bin/pyplugins/httpserver/tundrahttphandler.py
>  
> 
> We've been talking with Adminotech now about integrating this
> to their 
> hosting system to get live views to the Tundra scenes there. I
> imagine 
> it will be nice to see what's going on in a scene already
> before logging 
> in. And it's fun that it is normal Tundra, so whatever is in
> the service 
> shows normally (for example avatars). 
> 
> There are many ideas for improvements, primary one now is to
> change to 
> panorama rendering and add support for local camera rotations
> on the 
> client side. This way rotating the view becomes nice and
> smooth, not 
> needing the slow server roundtrip. This should be quite simple
> to do. 
> For movement fading transitions and progressive loading,
> similar to 
> Google's streetview, would be nice. 
> 
> Other direction is using video streams for the display,
> perhaps similar 
> to what existing commercial server side rendering + streaming
> gaming 
> services do. I wonder if VLC could do that as we have it
> integrated 
> already (VLC is originally made for sending videos over
> LANs). 
> 
> This area is not a replacement for other clients, e.g. WebGL
> ones (which 
> is also being worked on using three.js now, similar to the
> old 
> WebNaali), but a parallel track and a differently useful
> service. 
> 
> If someone wants to use this now in their setup, you need to
> pull that 
> httpserver branch (1 line addition to py api in c++, 2 py
> files for the 
> http server lib & service implementation, no deps outside py
> stdlib) and 
> the web client. The web client html is served via Tundra's
>   

Re: [realXtend] Re: Question regarding entity components and arrays of groups of properties

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sep 29, 2012, at 2:01 AM, Peter C. wrote:
> Thanks everyone, I appreciate it. The problem I have been having is that I 
> need an array which contains multiple properties per entry. I need to specify 
> multiple textures and properties per layer, so that's where I'm having the 
> difficulty. I'm evaluating the situation more, but it may take a while.

I also realized that difference, after had sent the quick mail with the ec_mesh 
materials list attribute. I'm not sure if we have that kind of structure 
anywhere yet, perhaps not.

what Jonne posted used:
dataComp.CreateAttribute("qvariantlist", "materialList");

I think you can be quite flexible with QVariantlists and qvariants in general, 
creating your data structure somehow. Also on JS side some scripts just put 
their complex data structures as json in string attributes, some custom app 
things.

But I also understood that for a terrain system in Tundra and probably for 
defining the attributes properly anyway now is targeted with c++? There I 
suppose you want some typed things, perhaps implementing IAttribute, or just 
using some existing list types, hmhm.

In IAttribute.cpp there is for example:
template<> u32 Attribute::TypeId() const { return 
cAttributeAssetReference; }
template<> u32 Attribute::TypeId() const { return 
cAttributeAssetReferenceList; }

https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/src/Core/Scene/IAttribute.cpp#L71

i figure checking those things out will at least give some idea of the 
attribute biz, what kind of existing types there are (attributelist, qvariant, 
..) and how they are defined.

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Question regarding entity components and arrays of groups of properties

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sep 26, 2012, at 9:08 PM, Peter C. wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of how to implement a entity 
> component with an array of groups of properties. I'm trying to implement an 
> ogre terrain entity component, however in order to properly implement it, I 
> need to implement an array that can be expanded as needed of groups of 
> textures/materials. I was wondering if A. this functionality was possible in 
> RealXtend,

EC_Mesh has an array of materials in the attributes,
in 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/src/Core/OgreRenderingModule/EC_Mesh.h#L161
/// Mesh material asset reference list, material requests are handled 
automatically.
Q_PROPERTY(AssetReferenceList meshMaterial READ getmeshMaterial WRITE 
setmeshMaterial);
DEFINE_QPROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE(AssetReferenceList, meshMaterial);

> Peter

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

[realXtend] interactive web view to server side Tundra rendering

[Toni Alatalo]

The old 'virtual webcam' / screenshot server / server side rendering is
back, now with Tundra2!

Live demo, running the physics2 demo scene from the Tundra repository:
http://www.kadonnutkaupunki.net:8886/client

Clicking on the main image rotates view, so that the point you
click/touch is put to center of the view. Arrowkeys can be used to move.

Clicking on the map works to set the position, the coordinates are
perhaps a bit weird now (the default view direction in that scene is to
south considering the map, so clicking the pos north from the center
shows you the middle part).

Your camera position is stored on the client side (the browser), so any
number of people can move around in the scene without interfering each
other (as if they all had their own cameras).

This is the same old client that we developed already 2-3 years ago,
first browser based view to realXtend worlds, before WebGL or anything
existed. Is the simplest and lightest thing for the client side, as the
client shows just images -- was nice also for phones and tablets back
then. There is no new functionality yet, just a port of the old thing to
current tundra2.

The html+canvas2d client side project is
https://github.com/realXtend/worldwebview

Server side counterpart is
https://github.com/antont/tundra/blob/httpserver/bin/pyplugins/httpserver/tundrahttphandler.py

We've been talking with Adminotech now about integrating this to their
hosting system to get live views to the Tundra scenes there. I imagine
it will be nice to see what's going on in a scene already before logging
in. And it's fun that it is normal Tundra, so whatever is in the service
shows normally (for example avatars).

There are many ideas for improvements, primary one now is to change to
panorama rendering and add support for local camera rotations on the
client side. This way rotating the view becomes nice and smooth, not
needing the slow server roundtrip. This should be quite simple to do.
For movement fading transitions and progressive loading, similar to
Google's streetview, would be nice.

Other direction is using video streams for the display, perhaps similar
to what existing commercial server side rendering + streaming gaming
services do. I wonder if VLC could do that as we have it integrated
already (VLC is originally made for sending videos over LANs).

This area is not a replacement for other clients, e.g. WebGL ones (which
is also being worked on using three.js now, similar to the old
WebNaali), but a parallel track and a differently useful service.

If someone wants to use this now in their setup, you need to pull that
httpserver branch (1 line addition to py api in c++, 2 py files for the
http server lib & service implementation, no deps outside py stdlib) and
the web client. The web client html is served via Tundra's http server
to avoid cross-site scripting limitations in browsers. A separate web
server is used to deliver the actual images (I just use Apache, the
Tundra plugin copies the images to Apache's dir). I can help with
details (write a readme) if someone wants to try.

~Toni

P.S. that 'server' is still the same old EeePC as the previous time,
some dual core Atom processor in a netbook, but with a mobile nvidia
chip that runs light Tundra scenes ok :) Also the upstream from the
server is just some ~5MB DSL, that is the bottleneck for the image
transfers. For the Admino hosting integrated thing it will be some
powerful box in a well connected (hopefully 100MB or so) place, this is
just a simple proof of concept demo setup.

P.P.S. Back 1-2 years ago I also added server side rendering support
with http controls to Opensimulator, and Nebadon and Melanie tested
using this same web client to their Opensim servers. It worked ok and
was sure fun enough, but the Warp3D SW rendering module there had severe
memory leaks (was originally made for one-time map rendering, not many
subsequent calls like with this) -- I didn't go into fixing those. If
someone is interested, is still well possible to use this there too (and
the mem leak in the rendering seemed ease to fix with some restructuring
of the code).

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Debian/testing compile fail.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sep 4, 2012, at 4:10 AM, glenalec wrote:
> Well, the Ubuntu compile seems to work - first run got it to the 
> black-window-of-emptiness, which is the expected behavior without any actual 
> world data.
> Plugging in my test world from my Windows install, everything came up on the 
> graphical server window nicely!

Great :)

> Not so good at home on Debian. First run compiled, but the binary segfaulted. 
> Subsequent runs failed compile with:
> In file included from /usr/include/python3.2mu/Python.h:67:0,

The Tundra Python module is not currently written nor adapted to Python 3, 
which is API incompatible with 2.

>  from 
> /scratch/naali-deps/install/include/PythonQtInstanceWrapper.h:45,
> 
>  from /scratch/naali-deps/install/include/PythonQt.h:46,
> 

Same is true for the PythonQt library (although I haven't searched if someone 
has ported it to 3).

Python 2.6 and 2.7 (last in the 2 series, has gotten many backports from 3) are 
known to work.

Also the whole Python module in Tundra is optional, you only need it if you 
need it :) (if you want to integrate to some authentication system / web 
backend or so in py, or use user databases from py otherwise, or use the (old) 
py written websockets server, or some py AI lib for your game/app etc). You can 
comment it out in the build script for the deps part, and then in 
CMakeLists.txt for the Tundra build itself.

~Toni
>  from 
> /scratch/naali/src/Application/PythonScriptModule/StableHeaders.h:10,
> 
>  from 
> /scratch/naali/src/Application/PythonScriptModule/StableHeaders.cpp:3:
> 
> /usr/include/python3.2mu/object.h:402:18: error: expected unqualified-id 
> before ‘;’ token
> 
> make[2]: *** 
> [src/Application/PythonScriptModule/CMakeFiles/PythonScriptModule.dir/StableHeaders.o]
>  Error 1
> 
> 
> 
> and a bunch of related fails around the same error. I am assuming this is an 
> issue with Debian's current python3.2 source code, rather than with anything 
> in ReX.
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Debian/testing compile fail.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 15:33 -0700, glenalec wrote:
> Thanks for that Peter!
> I will have another go when the mainline is updated (I have access to
> a Windows system at work during the week, but it will be nice to have
> a version running at home for evenings/weekends).

Thanks indeed -- my situation is similar, have windows boxes for Tundra
at the studio, but usually use Linux only at home (for work) and for
quite long exclusively for Tundra dev actually (on Ubuntu).

One remark: there's a bit of queue of pull requests, and at least I'll
be very busy working towards an article deadline next week, so is
possible that testing linux build things takes a while (though there are
many at chiru.cie.fi etc. who build Tundra on Linux daily who may check
that out).

My point finally: It can be helpful if you don't wait for the mainline,
but just pull from Peter directly to your copy. It is quite easy with
git. It can help with the review of the pull request if you can also
comment on how it worked.

Cheers,
~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] problems exporting from Blender

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 19:50 -0700, Peter C. wrote:
> Hey, I'm using the blender2ogre exporter and I'm having issues with
> exporting a character mesh from a .blend file. I'm using Linux Mint 13
> (Ubuntu 12.04), and I have the ogre tools installed, along with meshy,
> and when I click export, the textures, .txml, and the materials
> export, but the mesh and animations don't export. Does anyone have any
> suggestions as to what may be going wrong here? I've also noticed that

Probably you have a new version of Blender (2.63*) and an old version of
blender2ogre which has not been adapted to work with the new mesh kernel
2.63 introduced (bmesh - current Blender really should be called 2.7 or
something to notify the big change, compared to 2.62).

This was discussed here in late June, in "[realXtend] Belnder->Tundra
integration" https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!
topic/realxtend/XyxZBnVWuXM

>  the preview in Tundra is not working. It will load the viewer,
> however it says there is no scene file in the console log, and nothing
> is displayed in the window. I'm currently trying to get some test
> content up and running, but I can't get anything to export, so I
> really can't do anything at this point.

The old mesh api in Blender was just dropped so the old script simply
fails to export any geometry.

We dug an updated version from the Ogre forum back when encountered this
-- it was there early on and worked well, so there should be no prob.
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=61485&start=525 links
to this at the end and it states 2.63 support:
blender2Ogre-0.5.7-preview1.rar
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/download/file.php?id=4095&sid=64a791e6cf0e21f8631628ec216889e8
 .. seemed that that was the latest version there.

At one point I understood that Brett would have adopted that to
blender2ogre upstream but haven't checked. Adminotech hired him earlier
to write the exporter (when there was no Ogre export at all for the new
Blender 2.5 series) but I was told recently that Brett is now busy with
other things, possibly means that we'll start maintaining it from here 

In the meetings last week we, as in the association, proposed to use
money liberated from me (university starts paying me part-time
similarily as the foundation has done to take care of reX) to bugfixing
(issue tracker cleanup) and maintenance and blender2ogre is within scope
there (was my proposal). Adminotech made a good offer to do this work
pretty cheaply (for non-profit price, as all foundation work) so
situation with maintenance of these things should get better now.

> Peter

~Toni
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org


-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: an overview: webgl based creation tools

[Toni Alatalo]

On Aug 18, 2012, at 10:55 PM, Peter C. wrote:
> Alright, fair enough, I know the feeling about open source and having real 
> life to attend to.

A clarification here: realXtend is very much real life for many of us here, as 
in the full time job that we attend to. Adminotech bases it's whole business on 
and realXtend, providing Tundra hosting and application development (and later 
possibly adds browser based views to the worlds too). It is the sole business 
of the company and they have several employees etc. Also CyberLightning (Jani 
Pirkola's company) is building a business on realXtend, their current first 
products CyberSlide and CyberTeam are customized Tundra installs with 
proprietary additions. Ludocraft also has products and delivers customer 
solutions using Tundra, although other technologies too. Spinningwire in 
Germany, whose project the Berlin Gallery Weekend project was, is also building 
a business on realXtend (so far mostly Tundra but with good experience from 
Lehto now too -- they don't do games that much but art and collaboration spaces 
where it may be a good fit too). The guys working in the research project 
chiru.cie.fi (some 6 devs or so) work fulltime, doing research by implementing 
things in Tundra and WebNaali.

But yes the open source part shows in the public offering -- no one is selling 
the realXtend platform itself as a business, as a tool for developers, so 
marketing and documenting on that side is weak.  Adminotech, targeting hosting 
business, does this in a way, and there is actually nice Tundra developer 
documentation coming to the web by them soon (Jonne gave a little pre-peek of 
the work-in-progress site). Anyhow this dilemma is something we'll certainly 
discuss in the Mon (assocication) and Wed (foundation) meetings.

> I'm currently planning out an open source project, and the reason I asked was 
> I was worried that Tundra was going to go web client centric (which would 
> kill it's usefulness to the project I'm

Right -- so that is definitely not happening.

> planning). Regarding QT and Ogre; some of the Ogre GSOC projects look really 
> interesting (especially involving terrain), and I really hope they get merged 
> in to at least a branch of the Safe Ogre soon, or better yet that Safe Ogre 
> pushes a merge request with main Ogre for the stability fixes.

Yep, I think we'll manage ok there. The safe-no-crashes branch has no feature 
related changes so merging is AFAIK easy enough, I hope both ways.

> As for QT, while it's nice for applications and as a framework, it's really 
> not high enough performance for games. It never really was intended as a game 
> GUI, so personally I would suggest another toolkit on performance grounds, 
> but that's another discussion. Right now I'm preparing for the coming school 
> semester and working on getting my bearings with this open source work I'm 
> doing.

As your later post pointed out, the problem is not Qt and with this regard GUI, 
but you probably meant the C++ <-> Javascript interfacing of qtscript.

One quite straightforward way to speed that up for core things such as moving 
objects around etc. *might* be to wrap the related c++ classes statically, 
instead of using the current & automatic fully dynamic system (without any 
wrapper code). I mean how qt itself is wrapped with compiled c++ wrapper 
classes in qtscript libraries, as opposed to using the qt properties & slots 
mechanism for the JS access. I don't remember if we talked with Jukka already 
if this could work, but anyhow it's simple to test as the qt bindings made that 
way are always there in Tundra. If that would not help, I figure we should just 
resort to some normal direct binding method (for example just write V8 bindings 
by hand or with some binding generator tool, haven't studied this recently). 
The automatic qtscript mechanism is very nice though for the 
non-performance-critical parts.

For GUIs btw there is now an alternative way of using Ogre surfaces directly, 
also from scripts, for performance reasons (drawing animated GUis from Qt to 
Ogre in Tundra is IIRC still slow too). Jukka made that last spring or so, I 
don't unfortunately recall now whether there's an example somewhere.

Thanks for the feedback and information -- it is very important for us to know 
about needs and perceptions from out there!

> Peter

~Toni

-- 
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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] an overview: webgl based creation tools

[Toni Alatalo]

On Aug 16, 2012, at 2:23 AM, Peter C. wrote:
> I have to ask this, as I am in the finalizing stages of choosing an engine 
> for my project. Are you guys implying that it's likely that Tundra will shift 
> to a WebGL/Browser based system?

No and yes.

We try to be clear about the path in the roadmap doc that was posted earlier, 
but I explain here too. (the doc is at  
http://tundra.ludocraft.com/files/RexRoadmap-15052012.pdf -- we should perhaps 
'webify' that with some nice system (like getsatisfaction.com?) to dev targets 
etc that can be tracked etc).

1. The current C++ Tundra SDK with Qt, Ogre etc. is not going to disappear 
(anytime soon, if ever)
 * is used and maintained and developed etc., with foundation backing and in 
several companies with several products and for customers etc.

2. WebNaali is an early version of an alternative client that connects to 
Tundra, using WebSockets and WebGL etc. in browser Javascript.
 * it is an addition to the Tundra offering
 * being worked on now by 1 person at chiru.cie.fi (using three.js now instead 
of glge in the original/earlier version)

So the answer is no because Tundra is staying what it is, it remains as native 
code and is not shifting to a browser based system. But the answer is also yes, 
because a browser based client is developed -- which applications and services 
eventually switch to that is to be seen (I expect CAVEs with Kinect etc. to not 
switch but who knows in the long run). Possibly many web-hosted online services 
switch, or add it as an alternative client technique. And also with the 
websockets client we are using Tundra as the server, scalability improvements 
etc. are worked on in c++ for the server side and the idea is that the same 
benefits the browser client then too.

I hope this clarified the situation -- please do ask more if something is 
bothering still. And sorry for the delay, has been a busy week here preparing a 
new public world for launch.

To be complete, I'm afraid I have to further complicate the picture with the 
two additional tracks in the roadmap / on-going activities now. Many lines of 
work and various alternatives are not rare in the relatively fast changing 
worlds of software -- in (big) companies they are often hidden, and customer 
eventually just sees a clear unified result later. Some generation of a 
software is in active use, while new generations are developed, possibly in 
several different even competing ways etc, but in secret. In an open source 
organization such as realXtend it is much more exposed publicly. Also you 
should note that realXtend is not a company, but just an organization formed by 
several companies and individuals in order to collaborate. Any of these parties 
or anyone else in the world is free to take it in their direction etc. The 
resulting development comes from whatever it is that people/companies do for 
their reasons. We do take strict care that e.g. the Tundra core and 
architecture stay intact when additions come, but anyhow I suppose you get the 
picture. If you or someone wants commercial support and backing you can talk 
with the companies.

So the additional tracks:

3. Besides Tundra* and WebNaali**, we at Playsign have worked basically all 
this year now with a Flash client (first for the Berlin case), with simple 
usage of XMPP without requiring Tundra. We are continuing with this technology 
now with other cases, and publishing the very simple basic client code (using 
existing 3d and xmpp libs) as open source, as a candidate thing that realXtend 
may or may not adopt under it's umbrella. A repo for it is coming on-line, and 
there's a little doc that explains what it (Lehto***) is in relation to other 
realXtend things at 
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1iJil_uoj2BBJYXG5U5wrNkjWZPn4FKr8HjfgsRObpw0.
 The situation with Flash is a bit weird as we do not expect or at least hope 
to not use it forever, supposing WebGL performance and adoption improves, but 
we are using it now and probably the rest of this year (and next year?) as it 
works better (is faster, also on mobiles with AIR, and works in Microsoft 
Internet Explorer too).

* developed mostly by Ludocraft and Adminotech, with some cool things from 
chiru.cie and others too, and earlier us at Playsign as well
** developed originally at Playsign and currently by that one guy at Chiru
***  the name 'Lehto' (grove, that kind of a nice forest place) is to clarify 
the use of XMPP instead of kNet Tundra conns, whereas Naali is a Tundra client 
(those are both arctic :) . As the doc explains the interplay of all these is 
possible: if a XMPP backend makes sense for authentication, federation etc., 
WebNaali and Tundra can use it too. And Flash based Tundra clients, similar to 
WebNaali (but more straightforward as don't need websockets, can e.g. do the 
kNet UDP conns identically with the C++ Tundra) are possible too -- just that 
Lehto is not that.

4. The roadmap doc discusses and proposes a new 

[realXtend] an overview: webgl based creation tools

[Toni Alatalo]

Just came across a nice creation oriented overview of the state of WebGL now 
that several businesses are up -- the view is CAD related, which actually 
resonates interestingly with realXtend related webgl etc. talks, as simple 
creation tools have been of interest for many.

HTML5 & WebGL – one year on
http://www.nzarchitecture.com/blog/index.php/2012/05/16/html5-webgl-one-year-on/

"Investors have given millions of dollars to a number of companies who are all 
innovating to become the next major CAD player. This has seen WebGL go from a 
technology supporting a number of cool tech demos to a technology supporting a 
number of new businesses."

Lists (familiar) tools and services such as 3dtin, Tinker Cad etc., also 
Autodesk 360 et al.

Shapesmith I hadn't seen before, seems interesting and is open source: 
"Parametric, Open-Source 3D Modeling in your browser", http://shapesmith.net/ 
.. perhaps a bit similar to prim building?

~Toni 

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Re: [realXtend] C.A.V.E. ?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:45 AM, Lord wrote:
> Where can I find information about what C.A.V.E. does in the Tundra2 Viewer 
> and what it is used for ?

It is for having multiple displays, for example projections on each wall for 
complete visual immersion as in a typical CAVE -- wikipedia seems to have a 
nice basic photo from one such room in 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Automatic_Virtual_Environment

The Tundra module for that gives multiple view directions from the same scene, 
has presets / basic settings for common display setups for e.g. 3 displays etc. 
Is fun to try even with just a single display, they are just new Ogre3d 
rendering windows basically. Is implemented as an optional module, in 
CAVEStereo plugin.

Do try it out -- is in use by others succesfully, and is easily fun enough to 
test for example just with two monitors etc :)

~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] Re: Belnder->Tundra integration

[Toni Alatalo]

Jonne Nauha  kirjoitti Jun 29, 2012 kello 4:37 PM:
> I think those issues were only in the initial windows full build script as it 
> had qt 4.8. The py deps should build ok now that we reverted to 4.7.4. Just
> 
Ah - I still thought that would need to rebuild the deps against new qt etc.
> The real problem is that the py module has no active maintainer. Toni (the 
> inactive maintainer :) said he will fix the deps build 2-3 months ago, I 
> guess he is busy.
> 
I did get to work on it on a couple of days recently - enough to get a Windows 
Tundra dev running. I don't usually dev Tundra on Win so the old setups were 
outdated, also wanted to test the new scripts. Had some prob then with 
fullbuild which have still been unable to solve, doesn't compile iirc.

I did get a working build with your new prebuilt deps using script.

But releases are made with the full build one, so for that should get it 
working there I suppose - right?
> The deps and module is enabled and working in the linux build script, its 
> incomplete only in the windows script.
> 
Yep, and we've been using Py for server side things mostly with Tundra recently 
and haven't needed Win there so hasn't been a prob in WebNaali tests etc. I 
heard that mopo/chiru at the uni are using py for some app things too, though - 
don't know how much for client/server sides (I heard a XMPP chat gui was 
written in py there).

I'm not sure if we want to include py in standard Tundra client downloads as 
those seem to be big (on win) even without it. On Linux (usually) and Mac 
(always) perhaps less an issue as the OS already comes with it (including the 
standard lib which we've bundling for Win)

-Toni


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Re: [realXtend] Belnder->Tundra integration

[Toni Alatalo]

On Thu, 2012-06-28 at 00:56 +0300, Jonne Nauha wrote:
> You should post issues to the page there if you have problems with the
> plugin. We know the guy who devs that in his free time and sometimes

I think it is ok also to discuss it here -- it is one of the tools we
kind of support for Tundra authoring, and the only one which we can
offer for free for anyone to try (and improve on etc, customize for
their world building needs even) so it kind of completes realXtend as an
open source 3d app / VW platform.

Sure the blender2ogre issue tracker etc is the correct one for it, I
just mean that figure that this is an ok place for reX/Tundra related
talks about it. And the direct TXML export etc. that the 'magic
button' :) does is Tundra specific, not generic Ogre.

> don't have direct involvement in the development, so we can't do bug
> fixes/features to it. Though there are people here that know how to
> use it so we can probably help out here as well. For me the setup has

We can (and have) but yep anyhow Brett created it and has been doing a
good job upgrading & enhancing it usually, also great tutorial videos
etc.

One issue we've encountered recently (a user complained) was that
current blender2ogre didn't work with new Blender (which introduced a
new mesh kernel, bmesh, and some subsequent api changes in 2.6.3) --
there was already an upgrade on the Ogre forum and that worked fine for
us (we tested with Rauli a couple of weeks back and tried to help the
user the update his script).

Dunno if Brett has taken a look at that yet. We can also help,
maintaining the exporter is actually among the covered possible tasks
for the work me and Jukka do with the reX foundation funding (but not
lots and there's a huge amount of other work so is definitely great if
Brett or someone can do it).

> always been really easy and I've got it to work 100% of the time when
> I have followed the install instructions carefully.

Have you also been using the direct 'run Tundra' button, or just doing
the TXML export and launching Tundra manually then?

IIRC the script tries to guess the Tundra location somehow, but if it
fails, the instructions cover how to set the path for it.

The live connection to then move objects, trigger animations etc.
requires a bit more and doesn't work out of the box on Windows releases
now as Tundra doesn't bundle Python anymore/currently in those
installers. 

The button should still work to do the TXML export + Tundra preview
launching nicely, though. Just needs to have the path, I don't think the
relevant command line arguments have changed in Tundra recently. It's
really quite nice to be able to open any blend, and just press a single
button to get it show in Tundra.

I've so far only used it on Linux myself, and that's what Brett used to
dev it too. Others (MasterJ?) did configure it on windows, Brett was
helping I think here then.
> 
> Jonne Nauha

~Toni

BTW the bconf demo that was referred is on the realxtend.org site /
youtube, so it would have been possible for also Jonne to know what i
showed :)
> 
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:43 AM, Bill  wrote:
> I've tried it a couple times and was unable to get it to work
> correctly.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Jonne Nauha
>  wrote:
> I'm not sure what Toni has shown so hard to say, maybe
> he can answer more on that :)
> 
> 
> Anyways the thing most people use with Tundra is
> blender2ogre
> http://code.google.com/p/blender2ogre/ blender plugin.
> There seems to be a nice install wiki page there and
> all the relevant info how to get it going. If you need
> help with Tundra itself, you can post your questions
> here as the doxygen pages that have most of the help
> for people are still not up (after our web page
> meltdown that we are trying to recover from :)
> 
> Best regards,
> Jonne Nauha
> Adminotech developer
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:01 AM, Tom Bomfim
>  wrote:
> Does anyone have a step by step how to install
> the plugin for Blender-Tundra (win and Mac if
> possible) with that "magic button" that Toni
> has shown in the bconf 2011?
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> 

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[realXtend] Observations on Cloud Party

[Toni Alatalo]

A new VW called Cloud Party (https://its.cloudpartytime.com/) has been
in the talks on SL-related / metaverse fora after their launch for the
past few days. It is a new proprietary closed system made by some
ex-Linden folks, looks and feels a lot like SL, but focuses only on a
WebGL+WebSockets client. We took a quick look and had some talk on IRC
on #realxtend-dev about it yesterday, I summarize some observations
here:

- much is familiar and there's nothing really new in itself: 
 * general look & feel is like SL (no wonder I guess as same people have
been making it?), 
 * authoring by drag&drop of meshes from library to world is much like
the old Library thing in Naali 0.x already, and what e.g. the Admino
library Tundra add-on (just having a website with thumbnails of meshes
that you can browse) featured in their hosting looks like. The basic
support for mesh drag&drops is a core / bundled feat in Tundra.
 * I don't think they've copied anything from us, it's just how normal
basic things work also in tools like Unity3D which was the idea they
started with (they first wanted to make a new game engine / dev kit,
similar to Unity but with WebGL (Unity3D didn't have export alternatives
1 year back), but made it with realtime collaborative editing and then
as it was fun decided to make it a hosted SL-style VW biz instead).
 * Facebook authentication & integration is also similar to Adminotechs
 * the whole cloud hosting worlds-on-demand idea of course is what also
Adminotech (with Tundra) and Kitely (with Opensimulator) are doing too
 * the way to navigate from a cloud to another is basically identical to
what Spinningwire came up with for the Berlin gallery weekend thing
(click on a distant gallery in the horizon to visit it), so really there
is much familiar :) . Also the TOY lobby has the similar design of
mini-island like platforms floating in the sky, just that there they are
also connected with bridges so you can also walk from a plat for
another.
 * and as we've seen before, WebGL has performance overhead which I
think is part of the reason why also CloudParty does not look like
Crysis, or even some fancy game running on the Unity3d plugin or even
Ogre .. or indeed the sometimes quite fancy native SL client. I'm sure
much could and will be done on the gfx front in CloudParty still though.
They wrote the rendering code themselves, and certainly have made it to
suite user generated content (like the slviewer renderer is I think,
even though there are no prims in CloudParty, it is a bit similar when
people use meshes as building blocks) & also lower end HW. It starts up
pretty quickly and works nice and well, though.
 * Javascript API for in-world object scripting, like we have in Tundra
too (but more LSL style here, the script is in the scope of a single
object and there seems to be string based messaging / events for
interactions then. I've been otherwise tasked to investigate an
interoperable (cross web & native reX clients) and ease to dev etc. API,
so studied this one with that in mind too .. might be fun to test
implementing some of the CloudParty JS API in Tundra or WebNaali too (at
least much simpler than implementing LSL support which I've studied
sometimes a bit too :) .. docs are
http://its.cloudpartytime.com/help_scripting.html . Didn't seem like the
ultimate general multiuser 3d app API to me, but certainly worth a look
and more study, was fun to test it live too (got a little script made).

- It is I think a great demonstration of WebGL & WebSockets in action
for a fully fledged VW, with all the editing and creation related things
etc. working nicely .. UI logic is much like in SL (select object and
modify it's properties) but modernized and quite clean and simple. Some
here have sometimes I think misunderstood WebGL as being limited to some
kind of static scene previews etc., we've have a bit of a hard time
sometimes also with customers (who know SL and Tundra etc too) to
convince them that WebGL and Flash etc. apps can be interactive and
collaborative too (not just like single person scene views) -- after
trying out this VW, there should be no misconceptions about that
anymore. There are also many nice pre-existing WebGL made 3d creation
tools out on the web, 3dtin and tinkercad and such -- those are single
user though.

I've sometimes estimated that VWs can become bigger and more commonplace
now (or already last year :) thanks to the ease of adoption through
WebGL -- is sure interesting to see to what extent it happens in
CloudParty now.

Businesswise it so far repeats the SL model, of there being a single
company running the whole world, renting those islands there etc., and
the whole technology being closed and proprietary. So nothing new
regarding realXtend there, as in we keep on providing an open source,
not tied to a single company (competitive market vs. vendor lock-in) and
extensible (you can use it to your needs for any apps, not just SL
clones) tech. If I understood correctly, 

[realXtend] realxtend.org name serving again

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

the realxtend.org domain name is finally back in business. It now just points 
to the Wordpress instance -- not as a redirect like before, but it now is 
directly the WP site (that is: earlier the old realxtend.org server just 
redirected to realxtend.wordpress.com -- but now realxtend.org itself is 
directly hosted at WP and the blog works with that address). We started paying 
WP a little hosting fee now to get that, and also to get rid of the random 
advertisement that was sometimes quite ugly on the site earlier.

Next in line is getting the Doxygen generated Tundra API docs back up, and then 
some of the web hosted scenes etc. that were on the old www.realxtend.org 
server.

The server admin things are now centralized to Adminotech as a part of 
realXtend Foundation's deal with them. The delay on getting the service back up 
was due to some history having piled up after organizational changes here -- 
original realXtend project managers had changed, at one point DNS admin things 
were moved to Oulu Innovation Ltd which doesn't even exist anymore etc. Took a 
bit of detective work from me to figure out the situation, never had anything 
to do with those things earlier. Now all the info and accounts etc. is 
up-to-date and gathered in once place so we should be all good for the future.

~Toni

P.S. In other news, I was in Boston last week for Immersive Education 
initiative's yearly summit -- first visit for me, Francois, Boris and Pasi have 
been there earlier. Was mostly presenting the platform and getting a feel of 
the market situation wrt what e.g. universities need and want from VWs and how 
the different platforms are serving them. I will write a separate brief 
analysis of that with some conclusions, and am also available to talk about it 
(we may have an open live meet in Oulu next week about it). Basic summary is 
that many schools are moving or wanting to move away from SL after the changes 
there -- Opensimulator being naturally a kind of default candidate then (same 
viewer, content compat etc) but many are seriously interested in alternatives 
too. Wonderland is already picked up by some and has definite upsides (from a 
1000feet arch overview is basically identical with Tundra, but more complete 
and mature and well documented etc), but realXtend is seen as interesting as 
well (more power, graphics quality, work on mobile support, quite many projects 
and also commercial products being done in several companies etc.). 

And a much bigger overall point is that VWs and games may really be coming huge 
in education in the coming years (in U.S) -- at least if the research that 
Harvard presented from their EcoMUVE pilot hits the government etc. there the 
way I think it can (they basically stated that using games for ed is a prime 
candidate for solving some of the biggest problems in the american school 
system, had done pilots with hundreds of schools & thousands of kids and had 
nice reports to back it up etc). It try to summarize that somehow in the report 
too, and must also communicate back to those people, as the Smithsonian 
Watershed project (aka LVM / Chesapeake Bay) which i was announcing there 
approaches same kind of things as EcoMUVE but from an interestingly different 
angle.

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Re: [realXtend] Re: Growing support for OpenSim compatible viewer.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jun 6, 2012, at 7:03 AM, Lord wrote:
> to make the hybrid viewer ?   Another thing I have been thinking about was 
> that it seemed that Ogre would be incompatible with OpenSim and wondering why 
> it wasn't a module instead of part of the core, so that it could be more 
> easily switched in or out as needed and to keep everything as small and fast 
> as possible ?

Ogre isn't really incompatible with OpenSim -- Naali (~old version of Tundra) 
itself demonstrates that, for example this screenshot from osgrid shows a 
primboard in Naali 0.1, 
https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/1002746/1/naali?h=d9f90e#gallery:12

It is just that it doesn't do batching automagically, so for efficient 
rendering of large prim builds (say a house with staircases etc resulting in 
2000 prims) the prim support with Ogre would need to be implemented so that 
nearby prims using the same materials are combined to single objects etc. Lasse 
(the dev from Ludocraft who wrote Naali's (and hence Tundra's) rendering module 
made a plan for that back then, was iirc 1-3 man months work. The same 
technique would work also for user created content made with meshes, is not 
specific to prims only. I guess an alternative would be to implement prim 
rendering with some kind of special prim rendering code.

And the rendering with Ogre is in a module, just that for simplicity the Ogre 
types are used also in scene core currently. That may change depending on how 
well Ogre suits all the needs in the future, for example how it runs on current 
mobile devices etc. Ogre itself is quite small and very modular (the main dll 
is some 300kb iirc? then scene managers, directx/opengl etc renderers and for 
example particles are optional plugins) so it is often not a problem.

~Toni

> On Monday, April 30, 2012 9:58:50 AM UTC-4, ATupper wrote:
> To me it would seem that the optimal solution would be a project 
> loosely coupled with both of the development teams for ReX and 
> Opensim.  This breed of Tundra-based Opensim viewer does show a 
> substantial amount of promise, but it would really need a dedicated 
> team to dig in and suss out all of the inevitable roadblocks without 
> diverting resources away from either of the core teams.  This might be 
> the place for a for-profit venture to step in to take up the flag of 
> doing the heavy grunt work to get a implementation cranked out and 
> released into the wild.  Such a venture would have to develop the 
> viewer with its' release as open-source as a given and build a 
> business model around leveraging services around it. 
> 
> While we're tossing around blue-sky concepts for a hybrid, I'd like to 
> point out a big advantage of not hard-coding the viewer UI is the 
> ability to experiment with radically different layouts (Ilan touched 
> on this tangentially).  One of my longest running soapbox rants is 
> that for new adopters of Opensim/SL, the viewer is too complicated and 
> loaded with functionality that they don't want or need.  It's much 
> like giving an industrial-grade smelter to someone who just wants an 
> EZ-Bake oven.  There are of course plenty of people who do want and 
> need the advanced functionality, but those people are very rarely the 
> ones who are trying out the platform for the first time.  By not 
> hardcoding the UI, there's a lot more freedom to experiment with a 
> simplified experience that will help draw in new users. Theoretically, 
> if we can make it easier for new users to have positive experiences 
> with both Opensim and ReX, it will lead to a positive feedback loop.
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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Re: [realXtend] Re: Reminder: realXtend ANNUAL MEETING 29.5.2012

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:21 PM, Lord wrote:
> Will their be a summary or minutes of the Annual Meeting posted ?

Yes, Elina took notes and said that she'll post -- I suppose shortly.

There was nothing dramatic, but some good discussion.

~Toni


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Re: [realXtend] Reminder: realXtend ANNUAL MEETING 29.5.2012

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 29, 2012, at 9:09 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> 2. realXtend technology platform roadmap for years 2012-2013. NOTE: the tasks 
> and schedules are tentative, we don't currently have substantial funding for 
> new feature and platform developments, but do
...
>  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3157753/rex/RexRoadmap.odt


Converted to PDF too: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3157753/rex/RexRoadmap.pdf . 

> ~Toni

same.

>> 1- in the login page ,download the latest tundra version for Mac or PC 
>> 
>> 2- back in the Realxtend login page choose a ,name with out spaces 
>> 
>> 3- In select Scene, choose "realxtend-RMP" 
>> 
>> 4- click on one of the three avatar the Tundra client should then starts 
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Elina Rosenlund
>> Marketing Executive
>> Cyberlightning Ltd.
>> 
>> tel.+358 102712130 
>> mobile. +358 505955730
>> email. elina.rosenl...@cyberlightning.com
>> 
>> Enrich Your Presentations! Buy CyberSlide Now for $179 - www.cybersli.de
>> 
>> www.cyberlightning.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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Re: [realXtend] Reminder: realXtend ANNUAL MEETING 29.5.2012

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 28, 2012, at 11:48 AM, Elina Rosenlund wrote:
> realXtend Annual Meeting will take place on Tuesday 29th of May at 10:00 EET 
> on RMP. Please find attached the agenda for the meeting. The annual meeting 
> will be led by Jani Pirkola, realXtend chairman of the board.

Some material for the meeting, and in general too:

1. definition of realXtend -- revised from the draft I posted for review here 
earlier this spring ('about2'), thank you for the comments that came in via the 
Wordpress system!
http://realxtend.wordpress.com/about/

2. realXtend technology platform roadmap for years 2012-2013. NOTE: the tasks 
and schedules are tentative, we don't currently have substantial funding for 
new feature and platform developments, but do have something so some things 
will be worked on in any case. Funding folks are working to get projects that 
could include bigger platform dev efforts too, we'll see how that goes later. 
Possible other means, for example something crowdsourcing style, we could 
discuss in the meeting or here otherwise. Mainly this document is a strategy, 
identified and agreed on areas of work. With a limited focus, though, as mainly 
discusses reaching mobile devices etc. basic runtime platform topics, and not 
much features or e.g. creation tools which could be projects on their own.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3157753/rex/RexRoadmap.odt

We could webify at least parts of that plan somehow, perhaps with 
getsatisfaction or basecamp or some such, or just the current github issues & 
milestones system for small technical tasks.

> to go in  RMP,  connect first to login web page.

A note about RMP: there was some technical problems with the scene until 
yesterday evening, something was causing crashes -- we unfortunately could not 
nail down the problem yet. Now it works, however, as the guys restored it to a 
stable version from backups. I also now removed Hydrax and SkyX's volumetric 
clouds from there so that it's not so heavy.

If it does not work for someone with Tundra, it is also possible to use a 
standalone Mumble client to join in the same voice session -- Jonne or someone 
from Adminotech (also RMP is in their hosting) can hopefully give the details 
(murmur server address, login information, the voice channel id) in case. We 
are in IRC also (#realxtend on freenode) so please tell there if you need this 
option.

~Toni

> 
> 1- in the login page ,download the latest tundra version for Mac or PC 
> 
> 2- back in the Realxtend login page choose a ,name with out spaces 
> 
> 3- In select Scene, choose "realxtend-RMP" 
> 
> 4- click on one of the three avatar the Tundra client should then starts 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Elina Rosenlund
> Marketing Executive
> Cyberlightning Ltd.
> 
> tel.+358 102712130 
> mobile. +358 505955730
> email. elina.rosenl...@cyberlightning.com
> 
> Enrich Your Presentations! Buy CyberSlide Now for $179 - www.cybersli.de
> 
> www.cyberlightning.com
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] realxtend.org server is down.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Wed, 2012-05-23 at 13:45 +0300, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> > Maybe Jani can still check what might be wrong in the DNS records,
> > if this is not the server based issue at all.

Now I think I know what Tommi meant with Jani & DNS confs: simply change
realxtend.org to point to the wordpress blog, perhaps by making
wordpress.com itself host the domain or whatever.

To just forget the old box that we don't have direct access to and which
is unreliable now.

The current realxtend.org server doesn't have any critical data -- most
important thing it serves now is the Tundra API docs (doxygen), but that
is just autogenerated from a Tundra git clone and we can set it up to
some new place. Also there is a SVN checkout of Chesapeake Bay and other
scenes for having them on the web, but again no original data but just
checkouts.

Jani registered the domain originally and has hence supposedly has the
account etc. info needed to configure it. Right?

> ~Toni

same.


> > On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Jonne Nauha 
> > wrote:
> > I guess Tommi was right then in suspecting its the DNS :)
> > That is where realxtend.org should redirect afaik, and if
> > its up...
> > 
> > 
> > I heard from Jarkko that Jani will be around tomorrow,
> > hopefully he can sort it out asap.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Jonne Nauha
> > Adminotech developer
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Antti Ilomäki
> >  wrote:
> > Also note that http://realxtend.wordpress.com/ still
> > works.
> > 
> > 2012/5/20  :
> > > The web server http://www.realxtend.org/ seems to
> > be down. We are aware of
> > > the situation and are trying to contact the
> > relevant web admin people to
> > > investigate the issue.
> > >
> > > (realXtend itself did not disappear anywhere ;)
> > >
> > >   Jukka
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> > > http://www.realxtend.org
> > 
> > --
> > http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> > http://www.realxtend.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> > http://www.realxtend.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] realxtend.org server is down.

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 23, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Jarkko Vatjus-Anttila wrote:
> Jani is back, but he does not have the server admin access. I thought he did.
> Maybe Jani can still check what might be wrong in the DNS records, if this is 
> not the server based issue at all.

I have an account to the server, and Tommi does too,  but it doesn't respond. I 
think it is just crashed / stalled. DNS returns this for me and it looks 
correct (as in seems familiar, I think it used to be online with that ip: 
109.204.228.11)

So does not seem like a DNS issue to me. Otherwise I've no way access that box, 
that has been behind Tommi somehow and is perhaps the same folks and place (and 
even machine?-) where you have the chiru servers? (Nokia Tampere)

> - j

~Toni

> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Jonne Nauha  wrote:
> I guess Tommi was right then in suspecting its the DNS :) That is where 
> realxtend.org should redirect afaik, and if its up...
> 
> I heard from Jarkko that Jani will be around tomorrow, hopefully he can sort 
> it out asap.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jonne Nauha
> Adminotech developer
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Antti Ilomäki  
> wrote:
> Also note that http://realxtend.wordpress.com/ still works.
> 
> 2012/5/20  :
> > The web server http://www.realxtend.org/ seems to be down. We are aware of
> > the situation and are trying to contact the relevant web admin people to
> > investigate the issue.
> >
> > (realXtend itself did not disappear anywhere ;)
> >
> >   Jukka
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> > http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

[realXtend] Notes from May dev meet

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

we meet monthly with parties doing realXtend development. To talk about
work done and coming to next release, and to design how upcoming new
things should be made. This is for organizations doing actual code
contributions -- make enough pull requests and you'll get invited :) The
community meetings that Fred organizes inworld are open for anyone -- at
least I will be participating there in the future from the dev side, if
there are code questions etc, and we are available almost all the time
on freenode irc #realxtend-dev for questions and open talks.

We'll be posting notes from the core dev meets -- here are the main
points that we discussed with Jukka (Ludocraft & realXtend association),
Jonne (Adminotech) and Jarkko (CIE / Chiru project) yesterday:

New things for next Tundra release:

* Adminotech made substantial improvements to Tundra in the Berlin
Gallery Weekend project. All those are in the realXtend Tundra repo now
(merged via pull requests) already. Highlights:
 - Voice: fixes to the new Mumble plugin which was recently rewritten
from scratch, reusing much of the code from the normal standalone Mumble
client. Is reliable and gives good quality voice now (basically same as
Mumble normally). Is also compatible with other Mumble clients, which
now exist for at least iOS (iPhone & iPad) too -- so participating in
same voice conferences with Tundra and iPhone works now!
 - Mac improvements -- Windows and OSX versions are equally well
supported now (in the current Admino builds and hopefully in next
realXtend release too). For example dealing with the now very common low
end graphics cards in e.g. Macbook airs needed care.

* Ludocraft has made a lot of bugfixes and improvements. Also a new
Entity-Component: GraphicsViewCanvas, to put 2d GUI to 3d objects as
textures, so that the drawing is efficient and mouse input events work.
Earlier EC WidgetCanvas component has allowed the same, but with a
heavier drawing mechanism and without input support.

* cie.fi's Chiru project has reorganized their Tundra codes so that
instead of a modified Tundra repo that has both core changes + Chiru's
modules, there is now a separate chiru add-ons repository for the
optional plugins which work on unmodified realXtend Tundra core too.
Jarkko can tell at some point about the highlights there.

We at Playsign had our hands full with the alternative Flash client +
XMPP backend virtual world system for the Berlin event, discussed in
other posts. We've been now doing long term roadmap planning with all
the companies where consider the alternative techs etc., that's still
going on -- plans start to come online early next week, will post about
that separately.

On-going development work:
* Chiru is continuing with the Asset Import module (using the assimp
library), which they already had working for COLLADA and .blend scene
loading with Tundra1 last year. One guy is porting it now first to
Tundra2 as is, and will then refactor it so that it fits the core and
the asset api etc. nicely. Many file types supported by assimp are
bundles which include many assets -- for example a Collada file can
optionally contain a library of meshes, materials, even texture bitmap
data, and possibly a full scene hierarchy with parenting etc. We can add
support to importing such scene files similarily to how Ogre .scene
files are imported now. Also the plan is to support referring to assets
in such bundles, for example a mesh reference like: mycollada.dae#chair
* Chiru is also testing interest management / network messaging
priorization, to support large scenes with a lot of moving objects (idea
is to use a similar technique that Sirikata does, prioritize messages
based on distance or view angle)

In the companies we typically go where projects take us -- I understood
that for Adminotech and Ludocraft it is not known yet what core
improvements or new functionality would be coming next. Admino is at
least working on their hosting backend anyway. With Playsign we have
some teaching sessions soon where have planned on using the Chesapeake
Bay scene & scripts, and I also promised to visit the Boston Immersive
Education summit to present it, so we'll continue with the Tundra2 port
of that (some of the animal walk paths code work now but not all,
hopefully we can get the games working too soon enough).

The long term roadmapping work was requested by the realXtend foundation
board -- there we basically identify possible bigger development
targets, for which the foundation guys said that even substantial
funding could be possible via some development programs etc. A major
topic there is running on current mobile platforms, iOS and Android etc.

Do ask if have any questions about status of things and what is going
on.

Cheers,
~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Virtual Berlin Gallery Weekend

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 9, 2012, at 3:58 AM, Jonne Nauha wrote:
> and the data that populated the scene with the actual Tundra world. 
> Connecting to a Tundra server is quite easily doable though, as that flash 
> thing can do (afaik) raw UDP connections. It was just no in scope of this 
> particular project to implement the protocol etc. to the flash one. Playsign 
> (who made the browser part) have already done webgl clients that connected to 
> an actual Tundra server via websockets and have avatars mixed in with "full" 
> Tundra clients in the scene. Hopefully I'm not talking too much out of my ass 
> here, Toni can correct me if I misspoke :)

Yep that is correct, that gallery client doesn't connect to Tundra. The earlier 
WebGL+WebSockets one does, and we also made a similar test/demo with Flash with 
TCP (Flash clients connects to a similar Python module running in Tundra than 
the websocket one, just uses normal TCP for simple JSON messaging) in the 
research phase in December/January. UDP and kNet for native Tundra connections 
would be possible but is not implemented.

In the gallery thing we use XMPP for all the networking, which I find very 
interesting in general as a possible Internet scale virtual worlds backend, 
perhaps nice to use with Tundra too. Gives authentication, federation, is also 
used by gtalk and facebook chat, has simple way to have avatar info in the 
profiles etc. And presence info, ready queries for how many people are on which 
room/server etc. Is extensible and supports additional communication channels, 
so to e.g. put up a big grid like setup of Tundra worlds could be setup with 
XMPP so that the Tundra and Mumble etc. connection addresses would be given 
from the XMPP world info.

In this particular case it allowed scaling well, as was easy to create 51 
sub-scenes with their own communication channels for the movement messages .. 
on a robust mature production quality server (ejabberd) with an already 
existing client side network library (XIFF is XMPP for Flash/AIR) and for the 
supporting Python bots that run on the server side etc. Is easy to scale by 
putting up more erlang or xmpp nodes etc. We tested that 30people * 50galleries 
=> 1500 client connections was still ok for a single small server, thanks to 
the lazy messaging (same avatar/messaging design might allow even much more 
with the optimized messaging in Tundra), and the robustness of ejabberd.

One way to integrate the two implementations would be to make the Tundra 
*server* connect to XMPP as well (either with Qt XMPP C++ lib + JS logic or 
with Python XMPP libs) to get the presence info of the Flash clients so it 
could then use some lightweight means to have those eyeballs live in the Tundra 
scene as well. Or perhaps better a server side headless Tundra client which 
does the relaying so the messaging to the Tundra server would be already 
optimized. Let's see if we get to try that at some point :)

> Jonne Nauha

~Toni

> 
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:49 AM, Lord  wrote:
> Ener Hax of iLiveSL and Sim On A Stick fame did a small write-up about 
> experiencing this :  http://iliveisl.com/pseudo-3d-art-exhibit/
> 
> I, for one, was pleasantly surprised at how well the browser based viewer 
> worked..although I didn't quite understand the eyeballs thing.
> 
> 
> On Monday, May 7, 2012 5:05:39 AM UTC-4, antont wrote:
> Is publicly open for anyone to visit, more info in 
> http://realxtend.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/51-exhibitions-in-berlin-and-realxtend/
>  
>   
> Direct link to login buttons -- both Tundra and the browser based version: 
> http://vgwb.spinningwire.com/ 
> 
> Cheers, 
> ~Toni
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Virtual Berlin Gallery Weekend

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 9, 2012, at 2:49 AM, Lord wrote:
> I, for one, was pleasantly surprised at how well the browser based viewer 
> worked..although I didn't quite understand the eyeballs thing.

The eyeball is just a mesh+texture for the avatar that the customer thought 
that might be nice :)

It does fit the tech/config where the movements are largely automatic, e.g. the 
autofly from a picture to another -- an animated human avatar with legs would 
have been more work to make look ok for such autowalks (I think still quite 
easily doable for ok non-perfect level).

Also one dilemma is that we wanted to show the avatars in front of the art 
pieces that they are looking at, so that everyone can see who else is looking 
at the same piece. But we also wanted that the viewing angle is direct, to not 
obstruct the view of the art pic itself. This means that full-sized human 
avatars would block the view. Options are to make the human dwarfs, or scale up 
the gallery so that it looks like it's for giants -- or this kind of smaller 
non-human avatars which don't block the view.

BTW you can click on the art pic you are at to zoom close to it and get a clear 
view -- it hides the UI and the avatars, and the textures are 2k also in the 
Flash version so should be ok quality to view.

About tablets -- there's a quite common missunderstandin there: the Flash tech 
does run on iOS and Android phones and tablets, in fact we have been testing 
this same gallery application on iPhone and iPad. It just called Adobe AIR in 
that case, and gives installable apps instead of loading with a browser like 
with desktop OSes.

One idea is to make little a generic realXtend open source demo using the tech 
from that project, we could perhaps put that app then to appstore etc. too so 
that people will try also with phones & tablets. 

Thanks for testing and reporting! 
~Toni

> 
> On Monday, May 7, 2012 5:05:39 AM UTC-4, antont wrote:
> Is publicly open for anyone to visit, more info in 
> http://realxtend.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/51-exhibitions-in-berlin-and-realxtend/
>  
>   
> Direct link to login buttons -- both Tundra and the browser based version: 
> http://vgwb.spinningwire.com/ 
> 
> Cheers, 
> ~Toni
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

[realXtend] Virtual Berlin Gallery Weekend

[Toni Alatalo]

Is publicly open for anyone to visit, more info in 
http://realxtend.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/51-exhibitions-in-berlin-and-realxtend/
 
Direct link to login buttons -- both Tundra and the browser based version:
http://vgwb.spinningwire.com/

Cheers,
~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Is it still possible to get the "under the waves" demo on any archive?

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 1, 2012, at 7:26 PM, RexDilettant wrote:
> Anyone know how to get a copy?

For a fully working thing, you need the old rexserver download + the rexviewer 
from that time. I think it was included and working in the rexserver 0.4 
download, which is hopefully available via some archives. Ah they were 
SourceForge projects, so the server downloads are at 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/files/realxtendserver/ and 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendviewer/files/realxtendviewer/0.42/ .. 
the direct file for what I think is the best version of the server for BTW, 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/files/realxtendserver/realxtendserver-0.4/realxtendserver_0.4.zip/download

A current port of the static contents, saved using Naali from opensim+modrex 
(rexserver 0.5, where Beneath The Waves worked quite ok but not fully), and 
then converted to current Tundra format with a Python script, is on-line in 
http://www.realxtend.org/world/BeneathTheWaves/ (the txml+assets, you can start 
a local server from there: Tundra.exe --file 
http://www.realxtend.org/world/BeneathTheWaves/BeneathTheWaves.txml)

I made a quite nicely looking limited version for current Tundra 2 last autumn, 
can put that on-line too (it has the insides of the dome pretty correct, and 
then what you see from there .. but the other areas have errors due to 
non-perfect conversion.)

The Tundra versions don't have any code, just the meshes+textures and the 
scene. On the other hand, the new Chesapeake Bay has basic fish etc. movement 
scripts. Might be fun to use those for the Coral fishes too, get some life to 
BTW on Tundra .. or why not port the whole thing with the game and all, if/when 
someone has time :)

> Emerald

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Growing support for OpenSim compatible viewer.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 28, 2012, at 11:30 PM, Lord wrote:
> Recently, Linden Labs/Research announced an upcoming move (Havok AI 
> sublicensing) that seemed to indicate that they were going to develop their 
> Second Life(tm) viewer without further consideration of the Open Source 
> community.

I wonder what motivated that statement, seems a bit weird: "Sublicensee must 
require the Third Party Viewer to connect only to servers owned or operated by 
the Company [Linden Lab].”

Is it perhaps because Linden has only paid for a license to use it for their 
service?

> There are some who believe that they will just fork the SL(tm) viewer without 
> the changes needing licensing and continue onward, either with open sourced 
> solutions to the features they develop that can be used in OpenSim, or simply 
> by doing without those features.

Sure, people don't want to loose what they have. How much it would develop 
further from there, well, who knows.

> While this may work for awhile, their message is of a slippery slope variety, 
> and will probably result in their closing it down more and more as time goes 
> on in order to make it a tradeable asset.

Is this a somehow known? We here haven't followed SL recently here, everyone's 
been too busy working I guess.

> In light of this development it has occured to some in OpenSim that they need 
> to break free of the ties to Linden Labs/Research(tm) and produce their own 
> open-sourced viewer with no LL dependencies. However, there are strong 
> reasons for not wanting to write one from scratch: mainly, time and money. 
> Due to this, it has been suggested that OpenSim start with an already 
> existing viewer, such as Radegast, or Tundra/Naali and build from there. 
> There seems to be growing support within the OpenSim community for such a 
> viewer.

This is a bit of a turn, no?

Thinking about these things some 1-2 years ago, come to conclusion that the 
Linden renderer is what many Opensim folks are happy with .. is definitive, how 
all the graphics should look etc. And it was then LGPLed and all (right?) so 
licensing became more Opensim compatible too.

We've figured it has to do with the need: if you want an exact SL clone, may be 
not a bad idea to use the SL viewer. And Imprudence and Aurora and what not, 
KirstenLee for Cinematic / Machinima use etc. So I've been concluding that that 
front continues on the same way.

But if instead you are interested in a humble still a bit immature candidate 
Internet standard virtual worlds thing based fully on open source libs, which 
is modular (uses the same entity-component system for core things than you can 
define for your own functionality, even from scripts) etc .. then some other 
solutions are more interesting ;)

With realXtend recently the most important thing has been to make a fully 
generic application platform. Tundra reached that, and is solid and stable now. 
We are happy and can make applications.

The 'Second Life application' was one of the original use cases for Tundra too. 
Already in the Naali version it was all modular -- for example prims and other 
sl things were are in one app logic module (RexLogic is called, to mean the 
legacy lludp+rex features .. could be LLLogic too). Inventory was another 
module, there was actually two implementations: Linden inv in C++ and a Webdav 
inventory too using a Python dav lib for the networking (but the final QT Gui 
for it was written in c++).

If you want, it is perfectly valid and possible to implement Opensim things in 
modules for Tundra, for example. Some of them don't need anything new from the 
core. With the old Naali builds you can already test if, if the latest 0.4 
release still connects to current Opensim .. it may :)

Much could be written for example in Javascript, for example all the inventory 
and if you want authention and such things .. such app logics are often in js 
with Tundra. And UIs and custom editing tools etc.

BTW I've found the effort to add 3d rendering to Radegast with pure OpenGL a 
really nice exercise. And whole Radegast and actually the LibOMV in there too.

One way for Tundra-Opensim connection would be making some sort of 
DotnetScriptModule to Tundra for C# plugin support (or can they integrate just 
with c++ somehow) and use LibOMV. Naali of course has the old C++ LLUDP code 
too. I'd probably first test first with pythondotnet bridging, like did with 
Blender (in http://playsign.fi/engine/BlenderOMV).

But I don't know if LLUDP is that interesting to use.

> In fact, both Ilan Tochner of Kitely, and Tranquility Dexler(David Daeschler) 
> of InWorldz were very interested in the possibility ( 
> http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2012/04/new-linden-policy-may-hurt-viewer-development/
>  ) .

Yes, we have been talking with Ilan about these things for a while now.

He explained well how sees content interoperability as the key. I think that 
makes a lot of sense. So we might consider e.g. OAR import&export to Tundra 
(EC_Prim), not 

Re: [realXtend] Mumble record voice

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:58 AM, Carlos wrote:
> I'm trying to record the voice of a mumble conversation with javascript code. 
> I was seeing MumbleApplication.js and Mumble scene but I don´t find a Record 
> function like mumble native client. Furthermore the mumble client converts 
> recorded audio to different formats. I would need flac format. Is possible?

Do you need to record from Tundra?

Is also possible to connect to the same server with the standalone Mumble 
client and use that to record.

Possibly the non-gui library version of Mumble used with Tundra now (Jonne 
ported the audio code over from the mumble client to a lib) doesn't have 
recording code now.

> Carlos

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

snap to terrain (Re: [realXtend] Synchronization in clients in Tundra)

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 25, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
> I have used the RigidBody component for the character (as well as terrain), 
> but I see the character legs getting into the terrain in high areas. How can 
> I make character clamp on the terrain??

what collision type is the rigidbody?

in animation code with moving characters and a heightmap based terrain this can 
be useful:
var p = terrain.GetPointOnMap(tm.pos); //the point on the terrain at this 
location - i.e. gives the current land height
is in use in http://www.realxtend.org/world/lvm-tundra2/deer2.js (function 
updatePosition(dt))
which is up-to-date -- Jukka touched it previously in February or so I think 
after I originally made it (after ludo-Heikki's initial work), and did core 
enchancements for the terrain to support animation things at the same time.
 
> Vaibhav

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Synchronization in clients in Tundra

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 25, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
> I have a character moving to-n-fro (along the Z-axis) in the scene. I have 
> written the following script for this. When I choose the run mode to server, 
> the script doesn't execute but when I switch to both (client and sever), 
> animation runs smoothly with the single client but when I connect multiple 
> clients, the animation is jerky. Am I missing anything simple?? or Is there 
> anything wrong with the

With this setup all the clients run it individually on the client side, and 
have their own opinion about the exact position, which they all communicate to 
the server which then replicates the changes to all the clients .. so it gets 
jerky.

Correct is to do the modification only in one place, and have that replicate 
over the net. Either on the server or one of the clients.

With this code you disable it on the server - don't do that, if you want to run 
it on a server :)

> if (!server.IsRunning() && !framework.IsHeadless())
> {
> StartAnimation();
> }

~Toni

> var entityNameToFind = "UrbanMale.";
> var animationNameToStart = "Walk";
> var availableAnims=0;
> var delta = -0.005;
> var s = 1;
> 
> function StartAnimation()
> {
> var objectToAnimate = scene.GetEntityByName(entityNameToFind);
> if (objectToAnimate != null && objectToAnimate.animationcontroller != 
> null)
> {
> if(availableAnims<=0)
>   
> frame.DelayedExecute(1.0).Triggered.connect(StartAnimation);
>   
>   
>   availableAnims = 
> objectToAnimate.animationcontroller.GetAvailableAnimations();
> 
> var animFound = false;
> for(var i=0; i {
> if (availableAnims[i] == animationNameToStart)
> {
> animFound = true;
> break;
> }
> }
> if (animFound)
> {
> 
> objectToAnimate.animationcontroller.EnableAnimation(animationNameToStart, 
> true);
>   
> objectToAnimate.animationcontroller.SetAnimSpeed("Walk","0.6");
> }
> 
>   var trans = me.placeable.transform;
>   trans.pos.z = -5;
>   
>   trans.rot.x = 0;
>   trans.rot.y = 180;
>   trans.rot.z = 0;
>   
>   me.placeable.transform = trans;
>   frame.DelayedExecute(0.5).Triggered.connect(updatePosition);  
>   
> }
> else
> {
> frame.DelayedExecute(1.0).Triggered.connect(StartAnimation);
> }
> }
> 
> 
> if (!server.IsRunning() && !framework.IsHeadless())
> {
> StartAnimation();
> }
> 
> 
> function updatePosition(dt) {
> var tm = me.placeable.transform;
> 
>   if(tm.pos.z >= -24 && tm.pos.z <= 2)
>   {
>   tm.pos.z += (s*delta);
>   }
> else 
>   {
>   tm.rot.y += 180;
>   tm.pos.z += (s*2);
>   s *= -1;
>   tm.rot.y %= 360;
>   }
>   me.placeable.transform = tm;
>   frame.DelayedExecute(0.01).Triggered.connect(updatePosition);  
> }
> 
> 
> I have used the RigidBody component for the character (as well as terrain), 
> but I see the character legs getting into the terrain in high areas. How can 
> I make character clamp on the terrain??
> 
> Regards,
> Vaibhav
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] SkyX component in tundra

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 23, 2012, at 7:46 PM, Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
> I tried this also. I created a simple script which increments the time 
> attribute by some amount but the problem is that if I choose run mode to 
> server, the script doesn't execute. And, if I choose run mode to both, the 
> second client gets initialized with some initial value and it starts 
> increment from that value and hence, not synchronized with the previously 
> connected client.

Perhaps the server doesn't run with SkyX as it needs shaders etc?

If that's the case, one solution is to have a abstract server side script that 
only does the incrementing, and then another script on the client side that 
reads those values and puts them to SkyX.

> Vaibhav

~Toni

> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Ali Kämäräinen  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Set 'timeMultiplier' to 0 and use the 'time' attribute to synchronize the 
> time between all participants. The changes that the time multiplier does for 
> the 'time' attribute are not replicated as it would produce substantial 
> amount of the network traffic. If you want to animate the time, you can 
> create a simple script that increments the time attribute, say, each 10 
> seconds.
> 
> Grey skies,
> Ali Kämäräinen
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] realxtend.org site is down?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 17, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Teemu Siltanen wrote:
> Can't see doxygen documentation from there though and that's what I needed :(
> But I hope it gets fixed soon.

Tommi from Adminotech is digging up contact info for the folks who host the 
server. It is actually kindly provided by Nokia for free. Hopefully we can 
reach them soon and they can start it up again.

We should probably move it to some hosting provider with easier access but 
easiest now would be to get the old server up for now, we are all busy with 
projects too.

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] new definition of realXtend

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:37 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> What is realXtend?
> http://realxtend.wordpress.com/?page_id=260&preview=true

Bleh I misunderstood how Wordpress public drafts work -- that url was 
apparently session dependant, but this works for everyone and apparently has a 
nice commenting system too:

http://realxtend.wordpress.com/?page_id=260&shareadraft=4f7aa9fad8dfe

> ~Toni

same.

p.s. thanks to syymza on irc for pointing out the prob!

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

[realXtend] new definition of realXtend

[Toni Alatalo]

Well the same definition as always I think, but a new up-to-date writeup of it 
:)

What is realXtend?
http://realxtend.wordpress.com/?page_id=260&preview=true

Is a draft for preview and comments, feel free to comment either to the article 
(which is proposed as the new 'about' page for the website) or here or irc or 
however.

We have a core devs meet tomorrow at 13 and then the realXtend foundation board 
also meets starting at 15, and they invited me and Jukka to join there to tell 
about recent work done, current status, and plans for the future. They 
originally requested the definition of realXtend core etc. This is my current 
best shot that will present there then at least to base discussion, unless 
critical flaws or otherwise better definitions come up.

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Javascript. What is better 'global action' or hundred small 'actions'?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 11:57 -0700, Vik wrote:
> I will go with single EC_Script ( normal programming :) )
> Even if ScriptEngine is performant, load  hundreds of EC_Script may be
> painful ( as Jukka said in issue 439   
> https://github.com/realXtend/naali/issues/439

No the point was that using the Script *Application* mechanism with
multiple EC_Scripts is performant -- then you again only get a single
engine. The same thing that Jonne mentioned and indeed the reference
Avatar app uses.

But yep I think a single EC_Script can still be nice.

> And I don't think in this case live reloading  will be useful...

I think it's always useful when developing :)

And you do get that with a single Script component too, it just resets
the whole app then.

> Vik.

~Toni

> On Mar 29, 1:49 pm, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:41 -0700, Vik wrote:
> > > 001,...door.099), i can attach to each object javascript for actions
> > > (say "OpenDoor"). Or I can attach one script to scene and in this
> > > script distinguish door by name at run time.
> > > Which solution is better. I mean 'better"  from architectural point
> > > of  view of Tundra  in terms of performance  and memory consumption.
> >
> > I tend to make with one master JS and one EC_Script for the whole
> > application. I like normal programming, and also that used to be way to
> > make it efficiently (minimal mem use as there's only one ScriptEngine).
> > Have that in an invisible entity called MyGame or so.
> >
> > The system is however made so that using a Script component in each
> > scripted entity can be nice. For example for a non-programming level
> > designer to put a script to an object. And nowadays there's the
> > ScriptApplication system, which basically allows you to make several
> > script components to be executed with a single engine, so you get the
> > same optimally minimal memory usage. I think it's well suited for
> > instanciating several entities that use the same script, basically
> > declaring a class in JS and then marking entities in the scene as
> > instances of that. Similar to the RexScript IronPython system in old
> > realXtend with Linden based viewer and Opensim which is there in ModRex.
> >
> > One cool upside of using several EC_Scripts can perhaps be that the live
> > reloading may work less instrusively as only one script engine is
> > reseted and not the whole app. For example if you make AI for a predator
> > and it's prey, can modify either code, just save the file so it gets
> > reloaded in Tundra, and at least the other animal keeps working cleanly
> > from the old state as it was untouched. It's possible to make a main app
> > support restart too, quite easy perhaps even if keep the data in EC
> > attributes (script's can create their own so-called DynamicComponents
> > for custom data). The attribute values are ofc untouched when the script
> > engine is reseted, so that state can always stay (position of the
> > objects etc., but if you put e.g. some AI mode or tracking target in own
> > DynamicComponent, that stays too.)
> >
> > > Vik.
> >
> > ~Toni
> 


-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Javascript. What is better 'global action' or hundred small 'actions'?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:41 -0700, Vik wrote:
> 001,...door.099), i can attach to each object javascript for actions
> (say "OpenDoor"). Or I can attach one script to scene and in this
> script distinguish door by name at run time.
> Which solution is better. I mean 'better"  from architectural point
> of  view of Tundra  in terms of performance  and memory consumption.

I tend to make with one master JS and one EC_Script for the whole
application. I like normal programming, and also that used to be way to
make it efficiently (minimal mem use as there's only one ScriptEngine).
Have that in an invisible entity called MyGame or so.

The system is however made so that using a Script component in each
scripted entity can be nice. For example for a non-programming level
designer to put a script to an object. And nowadays there's the
ScriptApplication system, which basically allows you to make several
script components to be executed with a single engine, so you get the
same optimally minimal memory usage. I think it's well suited for
instanciating several entities that use the same script, basically
declaring a class in JS and then marking entities in the scene as
instances of that. Similar to the RexScript IronPython system in old
realXtend with Linden based viewer and Opensim which is there in ModRex.

One cool upside of using several EC_Scripts can perhaps be that the live
reloading may work less instrusively as only one script engine is
reseted and not the whole app. For example if you make AI for a predator
and it's prey, can modify either code, just save the file so it gets
reloaded in Tundra, and at least the other animal keeps working cleanly
from the old state as it was untouched. It's possible to make a main app
support restart too, quite easy perhaps even if keep the data in EC
attributes (script's can create their own so-called DynamicComponents
for custom data). The attribute values are ofc untouched when the script
engine is reseted, so that state can always stay (position of the
objects etc., but if you put e.g. some AI mode or tracking target in own
DynamicComponent, that stays too.)

> Vik.

~Toni


-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: natural language processing (Re: [realXtend] Digest for realxtend@googlegroups.com - 9 Messages in 2 Topics)

[Toni Alatalo]

On Wed, 2012-03-28 at 10:13 -0700, Carlos wrote:
> Hi Toni, thanks for your answers and your good humor ;-)
> I like to know about how we can integrate scripting languages for
> conversational agents like AIML or MPML3D. Has Tundra just implemented
> a config and protocol similar to OpenSim or SL?

Yes one of the Javascript example / reference apps is chat. That's what
I called 'in-world chat'.

AIML seems to have implementations in e.g. C++, Python, Java etc. Of
these you can use C++ or Python directly in Tundra, so could write some
kind of a NLPPlugin or AIMLPlugin.

There's two options:

a) Tundra plugin which uses the e.g. AIML lib of your choice, listens to
events from the Javascript-written Tundra/reX simple Chat Application

b) a relay of the Tundra chat to e.g. XMPP, and then making a simple
XMPP bot which uses the lib. Connect those to the same server, or even
just use IM (the XMPP bridge (client) in Tundra can just send the
messages to e.g. your / the bots Google talk account or whatever).

This code basically has what both of those options need: 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra/bin/pymodules/irc/serverrelay.py

That is: a) connecting to the Chat App qt signals in Python, and
listening to & receiving messages, which you could respond to here if
using the NLP lib directly, but in the case of this example it b) relays
them to an IRC channel (i've used it to monitor servers and to be able
to chat to inworld folks from irc) .. so if you'd go the XMPP route,
would just forward there similarily. I've been now devving stuff with
XMPP and also py written XMPP bots (to simulate kind of WebNaali clients
actually, for movement sync stress tests :) -- jabberbot
(pythonjabberbot in google code) makes it quite nice and easy, uses the
xmpppy library.

Here is was mostly assuming you want bots to the scene that participate
in the in-world chat. SL also has group chat. I would use something
existing for that with Tundra, probably XMPP. We already had a module
using that in the Naali 0.x versions, worked with google talk and
facebook chat and such. It is also possible to do groups etc. with the
own Tundra chat app, but the characteristics of SL group chat is that
it's not connected to the sims / regions. Just like a IM thing for
friends and groups.

~Toni

> More thanks
> Carlos M. Lorenzo
> 
> On 28 mar, 11:14, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Jonne Nauha wrote:
> >
> > > You are really have to be a bit more specific if you want detailed 
> > > answers. "How do I make X" (or include it in Tundra)
> >
> > Yes, it all depends on the details.
> >
> > What do you want to do with it, and how? For what data, with what perhaps 
> > existing software? Some natural lang lib that you already use? Or 
> > suggestions of natural language processing tools?
> >
> > If you want to e.g. have some system listen to the in-world chat, you can 
> > just integrate with that somehow. It is written in Javascript with the 
> > Tundra API (the chat messages are sent with entity-actions).
> >
> > Or if you for example have some existing service for the NLP which uses 
> > XMPP transport, you can connect Tundra to that.
> >
> > > In Tundra you make "bigger" features and functionality as C++ 
> > > plugins/modules. For example if you use other C++ libraries to
> >
> > Or in Javascript or Python -- as for example the avatar and chat 
> > functionalities are in JS. And system things like IRC relay and and the 
> > Blender integration in Python .
> >
> > Relaying chat messages to some service does not need C++, but if you plan 
> > to use some existing C/C++ nature language processing lib, then it can be 
> > nice to integrate it as a native Tundra plugin (which Jonne basically 
> > described).
> >
> > > Jonne Nauha
> >
> > ~Toni
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Carlos  wrote:
> > > Please, any idea about how can I include a conversation agent with 
> > > natural languages capabilities in a Tundra scene?
> > > Thanks in advance
> > > Carlos M Lorenzo
> >
> > > El 27 de marzo de 2012 17:49,  escribió:
> > >   Today's Topic Summary
> > > Group:http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend/topics
> >
> > > Script for a character in Tundra [2 Updates]
> > > Tundra Script [7 Updates]
> > >  Script for a character in Tundra
> > > Vaibhav Vaidya  Mar 27 05:50PM +0530
> >
> > > Hii all,
> >
> > > I am new to Tundra. I have created a scene. I want to attach a script to a
> > > character

natural language processing (Re: [realXtend] Digest for realxtend@googlegroups.com - 9 Messages in 2 Topics)

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 28, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Jonne Nauha wrote:
> You are really have to be a bit more specific if you want detailed answers. 
> "How do I make X" (or include it in Tundra)

Yes, it all depends on the details.

What do you want to do with it, and how? For what data, with what perhaps 
existing software? Some natural lang lib that you already use? Or suggestions 
of natural language processing tools?

If you want to e.g. have some system listen to the in-world chat, you can just 
integrate with that somehow. It is written in Javascript with the Tundra API 
(the chat messages are sent with entity-actions).

Or if you for example have some existing service for the NLP which uses XMPP 
transport, you can connect Tundra to that.

> In Tundra you make "bigger" features and functionality as C++ 
> plugins/modules. For example if you use other C++ libraries to

Or in Javascript or Python -- as for example the avatar and chat 
functionalities are in JS. And system things like IRC relay and and the Blender 
integration in Python .

Relaying chat messages to some service does not need C++, but if you plan to 
use some existing C/C++ nature language processing lib, then it can be nice to 
integrate it as a native Tundra plugin (which Jonne basically described).

> Jonne Nauha

~Toni

> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Carlos  wrote:
> Please, any idea about how can I include a conversation agent with natural 
> languages capabilities in a Tundra scene?
> Thanks in advance
> Carlos M Lorenzo
> 
> El 27 de marzo de 2012 17:49,  escribió:
>   Today's Topic Summary
> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend/topics
> 
> Script for a character in Tundra [2 Updates]
> Tundra Script [7 Updates]
>  Script for a character in Tundra
> Vaibhav Vaidya  Mar 27 05:50PM +0530  
> 
> Hii all,
>  
> I am new to Tundra. I have created a scene. I want to attach a script to a
> character. I tried hard to write a simple script which moves the character
> to-and-fro when the client logs in, but got stuck.
> Can anybody suggest a sample script for above mentioned purpose??
> The entity name is UrbanFemale and it has only one animation "Walk",
> animation controller name is UrbanFemaleAnimation.
>  
> ~Vaibhav
>  
> "Ali Kämäräinen"  Mar 27 04:30PM +0300  
> 
> Hi,
>  
> Could you try to stick in one thread, instead of creating multiple threads
> for the same issue?
>  
> Grey skies,
> Ali Kämäräinen
>  
>  Tundra Script
> Vaibhav Vaidya  Mar 27 03:17PM +0530  
> 
> Hii all,
>  
> var entityNameToFind = "UrbanFemale.";
>  
> function ShowAnimation()
> {
> var objectToAnimate = scene.GetEntityByName(entityNameToFind);
> console.LogInfo("Hey great, I found " + entityNameToFind +" Starting
> animation");
> var availableAnims =
> objectToAnimate.animationcontroller.GetAvailableAnimations();
> console.LogInfo(availableAnims);
> }
> else
> {
> console.LogWarning("Entity " + entityNameToFind + " was not found or
> animation controller component is not there! Trying again in 1 second.");
> frame.DelayedExecute(1.0).Triggered.connect(StartAnimation);
> }
> }
>  
> // Only run on client. One time animation enabling.
> if (!server.IsRunning() && !framework.IsHeadless())
> {
> StartAnimation();
> }
>  
> Vaibhav Vaidya  Mar 27 03:29PM +0530  
> 
> Hii all,
>  
> I have written the following script. I checked "Run on load" to true. When
> I launch the client see the message:
> Hey great, I found UrbanFemale. but do not see the available animation.
>  
> But when i go to view -> scene -> UrbanFemale. -> AnimationController ->
> functions -> GetAvailableAnimations()
> It shows me the animation "Walk".
>  
> var entityNameToFind = "UrbanFemale.";
>  
> function ShowAnimation()
> {
> var objectToAnimate = scene.GetEntityByName(entityNameToFind);
>  
> console.LogInfo("Hey great, I found " + entityNameToFind );
>  
> var availableAnims =
> objectToAnimate.animationcontroller.GetAvailableAnimations();
> console.LogInfo(availableAnims);
> }
>  
> if (!server.IsRunning() && !framework.IsHeadless())
> {
> StartAnimation();
> }
>  
>  
> Also, when i run the script view -> scene -> UrbanFemale. -> Script -> Run()
> This runs the script and shows the message:
>  
> Hey great, I found UrbanFemale.
> Walk
>  
> Am I missing anything??
>  
> ~Vaibhav
>  
> Vaibhav Vaidya  Mar 27 03:30PM +0530  
> 
> Please ignore the previous part..
>  
>  
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Vaibhav Vaidya
>  
> "Ali Kämäräinen"  Mar 27 02:32PM +0300  
> 
> GetAvailableAnimations() returns a list so you need to print each element:
>  
> var availableAnims =
> objectToAnimate.animationcontroller.GetAvailableAnimations();
> for(var i = 0; i < availableAnims.length; ++i)
> console:LogInfo(availableAnims [i]);
>  
> Grey skies,
> Ali Kämäräinen
>  
> Vaibhav Vaidya  Mar 27 05:11PM +0530  
> 
> @Ali :
>  
> I tried this also but I see the same results.
>  
>  
> "Ali Kämäräinen"  Mar 27 04:28PM +0300  
> 
> I see that your script is calling StartAnimation(). However, I see no such
> 

Re: [realXtend] newbie question

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Jonne Nauha wrote:
> One thing that we should maybe somehow fix is that our documentation like 
> that page you linked is located in our source repos. It's pretty damn hard 
> for technically novice people to clone the repo, make documentation fixes and 
> push a pull request to fix things. For this some kind of community wiki would 
> be nice. On the other had we probably dont want to have duplicates in many 
> places. Then they will just get out of sync with "reality" so much faster :P

Yes keeping in sync is why Jukka proposed of keeping most of the docs in the 
repo.

GitHub has a simple web ui for editing files btw, similar to wiki editing .. it 
does commits under the hood but the user doesn't need to know. Just click 
'edit' on the file.

The idea has now been that basics docs, a kind of a manual, would be in the 
central repo .. and then random tutorials for all kinds of things can be in 
blog and wikis etc. I'm not sure though, Blender for example uses a wiki very 
succesfully for manual. It does take a whole team of non-coder people who work 
on that there, they have own Blender documentation irc channel etc (I'm even 
not on that so don't know how they work). As you know we've been now using the 
github wiki a little and it seems good.

> Jonne Nauha

~Toni

> 
>> By the way you need not create any account on the server. To launch the 
>> server, go to the Tundra install directory and run the following command
>> Tundra --config plugins.xml --headless --server --port 2345 --protocol udp
>> 
>> Once you launch the server, run the client using following command
>> tundra --config viewer.xml
>> 
>> Login using any credentials (you may leave the password field blank), choose 
>> UDP protocol over 2345 port.
>> You should see a black screen (blank scene) once you login.
>> Now, try creating a beautiful scene.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Vaibhav 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Lúthien  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm interested in RealXtend and curious how it compares to OpenSim.
>> Therefore I downloaded Tundra (for mac) today and well, tried to get
>> it running. Since my experience is until now limited to Opensim I
>> assumed that there is also a "server" and a "viewer" involved, but if
>> I understand it correctly the Tundra application is both at the same
>> time.
>> 
>> I've looked on the Wiki, the doxygen documentation and whatever I
>> could find to guide me on these first steps ... and I'm very sorry: I
>> am obviously missing some basic concept because it makes no sense to
>> me at all. I cannot figure out what to do with it.
>> When I run the Tundra app it shows a kind of browser window, with two
>> tabs in it.
>> One says "login", the other "login.realxtend.org". The first one has
>> three fields: one for server address, one for user and one for
>> password - plus a radiobutton for choosing either UTP or TCP.
>> But I thought that Tundra *is* a server, too? What should I then enter
>> her to connect to itself?
>> And also: how can I create an account on that server for me to use -
>> if I can't login to - say - even create an account?
>> If I try to connect with localhost filled in and my local username -
>> just to try something - it says "Could not connect to host localhost:
>> 2345 with TCP"
>> 
>> So indeed, I am missing something very basic - but the thing is, I
>> cannot find a "basic primer" in order to get these basic concepts of
>> RealXtend clear. Could anyone point me where I can find this
>> information? I'd really like to give this a try, because it looks very
>> promising.
>> 
>> Many thanks!
>> Lúthien
>> 
>> 
>> PS Also, when I first ran the app there was a popup saying that there
>> was an update available, and I downloaded it. But that download
>> disappeared once done: there was no installer, and neither can I find
>> a downloaded update anywhere on my disk.
>> 
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] newbie question

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 23, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
> I am also a newbie to Tundra. I started using it from last couple of days. I 
> also had the same questions when I first used Tundra.

There is one old documentation page about these, 
http://www.realxtend.org/doxygen/_tundra_documentfiles.html

It shows how those things are possible from GUI (windows explorer for example) 
too, commandline is not needed. Those screenshots are ancient, though (pre 
Tundra 1.0) -- i think a good documentation activity would be to take new 
screenshots of the windows explorer gui entries etc. and update that doxygen 
file by copy-pasting from Jonne's mail etc.

And put a link to that doc to the 'documentation' section on the webpage.

I can do something in this area at some point (probably not in a week though, 
plate full of programming things now) and as said Fred is working on docs .. 
perhaps you can do those updates?

~Toni

> By the way you need not create any account on the server. To launch the 
> server, go to the Tundra install directory and run the following command
> Tundra --config plugins.xml --headless --server --port 2345 --protocol udp
> 
> Once you launch the server, run the client using following command
> tundra --config viewer.xml
> 
> Login using any credentials (you may leave the password field blank), choose 
> UDP protocol over 2345 port.
> You should see a black screen (blank scene) once you login.
> Now, try creating a beautiful scene.
> 
> Regards,
> Vaibhav 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Lúthien  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm interested in RealXtend and curious how it compares to OpenSim.
> Therefore I downloaded Tundra (for mac) today and well, tried to get
> it running. Since my experience is until now limited to Opensim I
> assumed that there is also a "server" and a "viewer" involved, but if
> I understand it correctly the Tundra application is both at the same
> time.
> 
> I've looked on the Wiki, the doxygen documentation and whatever I
> could find to guide me on these first steps ... and I'm very sorry: I
> am obviously missing some basic concept because it makes no sense to
> me at all. I cannot figure out what to do with it.
> When I run the Tundra app it shows a kind of browser window, with two
> tabs in it.
> One says "login", the other "login.realxtend.org". The first one has
> three fields: one for server address, one for user and one for
> password - plus a radiobutton for choosing either UTP or TCP.
> But I thought that Tundra *is* a server, too? What should I then enter
> her to connect to itself?
> And also: how can I create an account on that server for me to use -
> if I can't login to - say - even create an account?
> If I try to connect with localhost filled in and my local username -
> just to try something - it says "Could not connect to host localhost:
> 2345 with TCP"
> 
> So indeed, I am missing something very basic - but the thing is, I
> cannot find a "basic primer" in order to get these basic concepts of
> RealXtend clear. Could anyone point me where I can find this
> information? I'd really like to give this a try, because it looks very
> promising.
> 
> Many thanks!
> Lúthien
> 
> 
> PS Also, when I first ran the app there was a popup saying that there
> was an update available, and I downloaded it. But that download
> disappeared once done: there was no installer, and neither can I find
> a downloaded update anywhere on my disk.
> 
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Tundra Framework

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 16, 2012, at 2:30 PM, Glenn Alexander wrote:
> tunnels under the terrain are important). I insert them into the scene by 

tunnels sound very cool :)

> hand-editing the txml file. Then tweak their location/size within the server 

is hand-editing somehow useful for you, or  could the drag&drop of the mesh 
file to the scene work too?

> worlds live (I think one of the Tundra devs is also a Blender dev, so they 
> appear to integrate quite well).

yes i used to work on Blender dev before reX (was very happy to be in the team 
for Elephants Dream :) -- Brett has made that live integration (last stages 
were sponsored by Adminotech) and I've also studied it through.

thank you very much in participating in the helping & sharing the info on what 
works for you!

> Glenn.

~Toni

> On Friday March 16 2012 22:29:44 Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
>> @Toni :
>> 
>> Actually, I want to create a world which there is a large terrain, meshs,
>> 3d models with animation and scripting, etc. I think blender won't be
>> suitable for my requirements (haven't worked on Blender before). So, is
>> there any other tool which has all these functionalities. Or is it possible
>> to create such a scenario in Tundra?? Very Desperate to know about it..
>> 
>> ~Vaibhav
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>>> Vaibhav Vaidya  kirjoitti Mar 16, 2012 kello
>>> 12:42 PM:
>>> 
>>> Now, I am able to host the sample scenes over Tundra. I want to create my
>>> own scenes. Is there any GUI interface to create a scene (or world) and
>>> export it to a .txml file??
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Blender is one.
>>> 
>>> ~Vaibhav
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Debian Linux box - http://www.debian.org
> 
> My technology does what I want, not what some corporation wants.
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Tundra Framework

[Toni Alatalo]

Vaibhav Vaidya  kirjoitti Mar 16, 2012 kello 12:42 
PM:
> Now, I am able to host the sample scenes over Tundra. I want to create my own 
> scenes. Is there any GUI interface to create a scene (or world) and export it 
> to a .txml file??

Blender is one.

> ~Vaibhav

-Toni

>  
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Jukka Jylänki  wrote:
> You are probably starting Tundra without any storage directories. This
> means that when you choose to upload, Tundra does not know the
> location to import the assets to.
> 
> For instructions how to work offline on a scene, see the 'How to work
> offline' instruction text in Tundra start menu. If the steps are still
> cryptic, let us know, and we can try improving the help text file.
> 
> 2012/3/16 Vaibhav Vaidya :
> > Hey Toni,
> >
> > When I am dropping a .txml file to the black screen, it shows a "Entity and
> > Asset Import" window and when I click "Add content" button a pop-up comes
> > saying "Starting upload failed". When right clicking any object, it doesn't
> > show anything.. Am I missing anything??
> >
> > ~Vaibhav
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Vaibhav Vaidya 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Toni,
> >>
> >> I'll try it out and throw you more questions if I get stuck ;)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Vaibhav
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Vaibhav Vaidya  kirjoitti Mar 16, 2012 kello
> >>> 9:52 AM:
> >>>
> >>> How to upload the content to the server?? or how to create a scene??
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You can drag & drop txml, .scene and .mesh files to that black window.
> >>> Open from menu view-scene the GUI to see outline of your scene. 
> >>> Right-click
> >>> on object in the list and choose bottommost "locate" to see it.
> >>>
> >>> Only one Tundra instance is enough for creating, don't need server and
> >>> client. Can save scene from that same right-click menu in scene gui.
> >>>
> >>> I'm on a iPhone now so not typing much, perhaps others can post more, but
> >>> do ask if have further questions. I can tell more later.
> >>>
> >>> Fred is making new tutorials. Are any ready yet?
> >>>
> >>> Vaibhav Vaidya
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Toni
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> >>> http://www.realxtend.org
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> >>> http://www.realxtend.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> > http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Tundra Framework

[Toni Alatalo]

Vaibhav Vaidya  kirjoitti Mar 16, 2012 kello 9:52 
AM:
> How to upload the content to the server?? or how to create a scene??

You can drag & drop txml, .scene and .mesh files to that black window. Open 
from menu view-scene the GUI to see outline of your scene. Right-click on 
object in the list and choose bottommost "locate" to see it.

Only one Tundra instance is enough for creating, don't need server and client. 
Can save scene from that same right-click menu in scene gui.

I'm on a iPhone now so not typing much, perhaps others can post more, but do 
ask if have further questions. I can tell more later.

Fred is making new tutorials. Are any ready yet?

> Vaibhav Vaidya 

-Toni


> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Meshes do not persist between two sessions in Opensim

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 14, 2012, at 9:13 AM, Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
> problem?? What is the solution for this? or Is there a better way of doing it?

We all use Tundra, which is a new version of Naali which does not need Opensim 
(iincludes also server functionality).

If that has the features and functionality you need, it's a really nice, 
mature, stable, simple, fast etc solution :)

> Vaibhav Vaidya

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Tundra 2.3.0, Python work with Element

[Toni Alatalo]

On Tue, 2012-03-13 at 06:16 -0700, Vik wrote:
> pick websocket branch and rebuild Tundra.
> As about looking to generic solution for boost ptr to raw ptr, I don't
> think I can be helpful.

I managed to add ScenePtr.get() to the Python API, so that instead of
having the old *Raw() variants of all sorts of getters, this now works
instead:

scene = sceneapi.GetScene(name).get() #get() for boost -> normal pointer

I did not find a way to do the conversion automatically. Also I failed
to just add a generic exposing for all boost pointers, as qt slots can't
be templates etc., but that does not matter as we can just add EntityPtr
and ComponentPtr and the not-too-many other necessary ones separately.

Commit is in websocket branch and the websocket server now uses that
style to get the scene. I didn't remove the GetSceneRaw etc. yet as
other places are using it, but if we find that this add-extra-.get() is
an ok solution I can add that for the different types and make codes use
it. And put that to mainline so it comes to releases etc.

Commit is
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/commit/e72cb827c7fcbaee27b8258e616ee7bd2835fbd7
 .. it has also the failed generic attempt commented out, in case someone has 
clever ideas for it.

BTW we have a separate realxtend-dev list here for programming topics, I
suggest possible continuation of this and other deep code talks move
there.

> Vik

~Toni


-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Tundra 2.3.0, Python work with Element

[Toni Alatalo]

On Tue, 2012-03-13 at 06:39 -0700, Vik wrote:
> About my use case... I just started to look at your platform, and
> first place where Python script will be useful it is on server part
> for validate username/password looking in MySQL for example... As I

Right - I actually did that with tundra1, authentication against
simiangrid (which is a apache+php+mysql thing for having user accounts
and info about them and world regions etc) in Python with xmlrpc,
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra/bin/pymodules/simiangrid/auth.py

That's exactly the sort of thing i meant with 'system integrations',
integrations to authentication, group, project management etc things.
Server side, where it is not a problem that it is trusted installed code
(javascript is good in the client side for downloaded code which is
executed in a sandbox).

> understand, this is not possible to use Javascript for that...

One thing to note there is that the Tundra JS environment is not limited
like the one in browsers -- just the programming language is the same,
but the API is different. In Tundra you have all of Qt + the Tundra API,
and for Qt there is the SQL extension which perhaps works for DB
connections etc nicely too. But still Python is more common in general
for such things (e.g. web backends with databases) and has lots of nice
libraries etc for that.

> Vik

~Toni


-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Problem compiling Opensim-0.7.3 with ModRex

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 13, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Vaibhav Vaidya wrote:
> @Denis : can u please throw some light on stock Opensim. What is it?
> I want to use the features of Opensim and don't want to go for Tundra.

"stock" just means normal Opensim. so if you need features of Opensim and don't 
have problem with it, just use it :)

BTW the old 0.x versions of Naali viewer can connect to plain / stock / vanilla 
Opensim too, doesn't need modrex, but then you would not get meshes as LLMesh 
didn't even exist then. But with slviewer 2 and 3 serieses you have mesh 
support (LLmesh over the wire, the viewer converts collada to llmesh and 
uploads to sl or opensim)

> Vaibhav Vaidya

~Toni

> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
> On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Denis Tarasov wrote:
> > you want from it. You will be far better either with stock opensim (it
> > has mesh support now, anyway and MUCH more stable) or try Tundra
> > (altrough, it also propably would not do what you want as it is, but
> > can be made to, I think).
> 
> Yep -- whether Tundra already has the required functionality depends totally 
> on the exact needs, of course. Likewise for Opensim.
> 
> > Denis Tarasov
> 
> ~Toni
> 
> >
> > On Mar 12, 3:41 pm, Vaibhav Vaidya  wrote:
> >> Thanks Mikko,
> >>
> >> ModRex complied successfully with Opensim-0.7.0.2. I made initial
> >> configuration changes and was able to setup the server but when I am
> >> connecting the realxtend Naali 0.3.4.1 client to it, its showing the
> >> following error :
> >>
> >> Login Failed, reason : destination not found.
> >>
> >> Please help..
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Ali Kämäräinen 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>
> >>> ModRex is discontinued techonology. The current focus of the realXtend
> >>> project is on the Tundra technology. IIRC ModRex should compile with
> >>> Opensim. 0.6.9.
> >>
> >>> Grey skies,
> >>> Ali Kämäräinen
> >>
> >>>  --
> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> >>> http://www.realxtend.org
> >
> > --
> > http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> > http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Moving Avatar/Bots in real-time from an esternal positioning service

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 13, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Daniele Zanni wrote:
> To sum up, if  I got it correctly, there is no way to do it without touching 
> any  C++ code at the moment, either way?

if compiling is counted as touching, that may be correct. if you can compile, 
is simple to pull from the websocket branch and the c++ changes there are tiny.

if you can't compile and want to quickly do something, using the last 1.x 
release would give you a mature py env where everything works. if you decide to 
do that, i promise to get the basics to mainline 2.x soon enough so that you 
can easily migrate. is not really recommended though as 1.x is ancient, 
compiling better py support in or using qtscript/js is better.

~Toni

> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ali Kämäräinen  wrote:
> What you are trying to accomplish should be totally doable in Python too. 
> However, the Python-side of Tundra is currently somewhat lacking, see 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/realxtend/jNHCpZXrfio So, 
> either continue with Python and enhance the C++-Python wrapper a bit, or 
> implement the WebSocket part as C++ Tundra module, which you can access from 
> the QtScript/JavaScript, or just fully in QtScript/JavaScript. And of course 
> pure C++ implementation is possible too.
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Problem compiling Opensim-0.7.3 with ModRex

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Denis Tarasov wrote:
> you want from it. You will be far better either with stock opensim (it
> has mesh support now, anyway and MUCH more stable) or try Tundra
> (altrough, it also propably would not do what you want as it is, but
> can be made to, I think).

Yep -- whether Tundra already has the required functionality depends totally on 
the exact needs, of course. Likewise for Opensim.

> Denis Tarasov

~Toni

> 
> On Mar 12, 3:41 pm, Vaibhav Vaidya  wrote:
>> Thanks Mikko,
>> 
>> ModRex complied successfully with Opensim-0.7.0.2. I made initial
>> configuration changes and was able to setup the server but when I am
>> connecting the realxtend Naali 0.3.4.1 client to it, its showing the
>> following error :
>> 
>> Login Failed, reason : destination not found.
>> 
>> Please help..
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Ali Kämäräinen wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Hi,
>> 
>>> ModRex is discontinued techonology. The current focus of the realXtend
>>> project is on the Tundra technology. IIRC ModRex should compile with
>>> Opensim. 0.6.9.
>> 
>>> Grey skies,
>>> Ali Kämäräinen
>> 
>>>  --
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>>> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Tundra 2.3.0, Python work with Element

[Toni Alatalo]

On Mar 12, 2012, at 9:06 PM, Vik wrote:
> How I can work with Element of Scene  in Python?

Python support in 2.x series has been lacking after the aggressive cleanups 
made (2.0 was largely a cleanup), but we've been slowly improving it as needed 
(we need it for the websocket server module, and the Blender integration thing 
needs it too).

Currently there is no new clean all-saving solution to the boost Ptr problem, 
but we've just worked around by adding some *Raw getters back -- but only in a 
branch, and only in PythonScriptModule, to keep the core clean.

That is in the websocket branch: 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/tree/websocket

That branch basically only has py support additions and the Python written 
websocket server itself, so is safe to pull to your version. Is easy with git, 
do ask if you need help with that. Supposing you are building your own Tundra. 
If not, I guess I'll have to fix these for you for next release :p

> I can call for example
> el=tundra.Scene().MainCameraScene().GetEntityByName(entityName)
> But I can't use obtained element el at all - no attributes.

The websocket branch has a commit that gives you exactly that:

"restore scene.GetEntityByNameRaw for py, as there is no EntityPtr handling 
(yet). this sufficed for websocket server to work now"
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/commit/35a2a688062043c17aaf8be3b1f666b619a7

It is 2 lines of trivial code, so I hope you see how easy it is to add other 
similar things where you need them, for now:
QObject *TundraInstanceDecorator::GetEntityByNameRaw(Scene *scene, const 
QString &name)
{ 
return scene->GetEntityByName(name).get();
}

With that technique the *Raw workaround thing is in the optional Python support 
module only, so we can even put them upstream to have in reX releases etc. if 
it's really needed. But idea has been to make a generic solution for all Ptrs:

> I understand that el is EntityPtr, not Entity as for example method
> GetEntityRaw(id) return.
> How i can convert EntityPtr to Entity in Python?
> And method GetEntityByNameRaw()  is obsolete now?

If automatic conversion of Boost-Ptr to normal pointer is not possible in the 
Python API (no one has afaik tried it yet), we can perhaps expose the boost 
get() method to py so that you would do:

entityptr = scene.GetEntityByName("myent")
entity = entityptr.get()

This would be a bit annoying but ok (given we can do the pointer handling 
correctly). If that is somehow not possible perhaps a function
ptrGet(somePtr) is possible.

If you have some c++ skills, feel free to try - patches are welcome. If not, 
please tell, so I or someone else here (Erno?) can try those.

We have been a little unsure of the need of Python support otherwise, so it is 
very interesting to hear that you are using it. There are some cases where it 
is more suitable than e.g. Javascript, I think mostly related to system 
integration things or anything where you need to use existing py libs. Also 
others just prefer it as the language is nicer. Would be nice to hear something 
about your use case if possible, but you don't have to tell of course.

> And example of plugin "apitests.py" does not work:
> PythonScript:  Python ApiRunner.testScene() failed 
> PythonScript: SceneAPI has no attribute named 'GetDefaultSceneRaw'

Yep that one is just not ported to 2.x, works in 1.x.

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

[realXtend] Study & demos of browser based reX client techs

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

as mentioned in some emails earlier, and on IRC, we've been continuing work 
towards a browser based realXtend client here at Playsign.

We made a research report and a set of demos / tests with both WebGL and the 
new hardware accelerated 3d support in Flash11 (Stage3d) in December-January. 
There is now a public version of the report, suitable for generic realXtend 
planning. Also most of the demos are on-line now as public generic versions, 
without customer sensitive data.

The public google doc, "Browser Based realXtend Client Technologies": 
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1MEJ25wK_tjuDcXlgKVa9jsxRYLOTPGusX4pybGBn_DM
 . It's also linked to & embedded in 
http://www.realxtend.org/webnaali/research/, just to have a simpler address too.

The different demos are explained in the doc with screenshots, and a list of 
all the demos is gathered at the end.

Any feedback is very welcome -- it's a draft, open for a first round of 
comments. Especially interesting I think is views on what technologies would 
serve best the needs that you have in your own projects / products -- what 
browsers should be supported, how critical is it for users not need to install 
anything, what features are required etc. I'll post something to the 
website/blog too, after this initial round for comments.

We have a little meeting about possible future work in this area with tomorrow 
on Friday at the university as CIE has expressed interest. I will also talk 
with Jukka about how he sees the situation after doing tests with the native 
Tundra plugin again back in December. As mentioned in the intro of the doc, it 
might be a good idea to include an analysis of that route to the same tech 
comparison.

After the initial research we have now been working on one specific 
application, using Flash with Away3d now (is a normal commercial service where 
is good that works out of the box also for Internet Explorer users). The first 
step in that app is without networking otherwise, but we are using XMPP for 
chat -- tested both Flash (with the xiff lib) and HTML+JS (with strophe.js) 
clients succesfully. We could add a section about xmpp/chat things to the 
report too.

The old WebNaali 0.1 demo with WebGL + WebSockets and actual Tundra 
connectivity (http://realxtend.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/webnaali-demo-on-line/) 
has also been ported so that it works again with current browsers (with the 
final websockets spec) and against Tundra2. There is no on-line demo now, but 
the functionality is the same as in the video. I'll put the demo up again at 
some point when have time and can arrange a suitable server somehow.

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] If there is any tools to parse XML files in JavaScript environment in realXtend Tundra?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Fri, 2012-02-24 at 14:44 -0500, 赵柏萱 wrote:
> Thank you for the detailed reply!

I made a quick / test example that should get you going:
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/jsmodules/apitest/qtxml.js

Can run with:
./Tundra --headless --run jsmodules/apitest/qtxml.js

it walks the xml doc and prints tags. is made to run from the Tundra bin
directory (or the root in release) as expects the plugins.xml to be
there.

~Toni

> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Toni Alatalo 
> wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-02-24 at 10:37 -0800, Zhao Boxuan wrote:
> > I'm going to make a demo using realXtend tundra, and there
> are some
> 
> 
> Cool!
> 
> > xml files to parse. I try to use " new
> > ActiveXObject('Microsoft.XMLDOM') " to do the parse job but
> it seems
> > that the parser is not supported in the tundra JavaSript
> environment.
> 
> 
> Heh, no that certainly is not expected to work out of the box.
> I don't
> know what API that actually is even. Browsers which have
> active-x
> support, any browser on Windows perhaps?
> 
> > Could anyone tell me if there's any tools I can use to parse
> the XML
> > files?
> 
> 
> Tundra itself uses Qt XML, and that is I think available to
> Javascript
> (QtScript) too. The qt.xml extension.
> 
> I can make a test / little demo later, have never actually
> used that yet
> (but it does seem nice on the c++ side with the XML
> DocumentObjects or
> so).
> 
> I think the same ImportExtension thing that's used to load
> qt.core and
> qt.gui in the examples in e.g. scenes/ dir should work for
> that too, and
> then the Qt API docs (for c++ but the API is the same) should
> tell how
> it works.
> 
> It is also possible to use pure Javascript libraries, if for
> example
> JQuery has nice XML tools, but that Qt XML is native c++ code
> so should
> be fast and I think nice too.
> 
> ~Toni
> 
> P.S. I think we have the ActiveX support enabled in Qt too
> ('ActiveQt'),
> so if that's needed for something else it's possible to use
> too. Not
> needed for XML, but I think e.g. Flash works that way. (on
> windows when
> Flash active-x plugin installed)
> 
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org


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Re: [realXtend] If there is any tools to parse XML files in JavaScript environment in realXtend Tundra?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Fri, 2012-02-24 at 10:37 -0800, Zhao Boxuan wrote:
> I'm going to make a demo using realXtend tundra, and there are some

Cool!

> xml files to parse. I try to use " new
> ActiveXObject('Microsoft.XMLDOM') " to do the parse job but it seems
> that the parser is not supported in the tundra JavaSript environment.

Heh, no that certainly is not expected to work out of the box. I don't
know what API that actually is even. Browsers which have active-x
support, any browser on Windows perhaps?

> Could anyone tell me if there's any tools I can use to parse the XML
> files?

Tundra itself uses Qt XML, and that is I think available to Javascript
(QtScript) too. The qt.xml extension.

I can make a test / little demo later, have never actually used that yet
(but it does seem nice on the c++ side with the XML DocumentObjects or
so).

I think the same ImportExtension thing that's used to load qt.core and
qt.gui in the examples in e.g. scenes/ dir should work for that too, and
then the Qt API docs (for c++ but the API is the same) should tell how
it works.

It is also possible to use pure Javascript libraries, if for example
JQuery has nice XML tools, but that Qt XML is native c++ code so should
be fast and I think nice too.

~Toni

P.S. I think we have the ActiveX support enabled in Qt too ('ActiveQt'),
so if that's needed for something else it's possible to use too. Not
needed for XML, but I think e.g. Flash works that way. (on windows when
Flash active-x plugin installed)

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Re: [realXtend] Attempted Debian Wheezy compile (fail)

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sat, 2012-02-04 at 21:47 -0800, glenalec wrote:
> I am trying to compile under Debian/Testing and am hitting a snag. Not
(...)
> Using build-ubuntu-deps.bash as a reference, I successfully got all
> the required packages installed and a good chunk of the compile went
> through. The error occurred at this point:

That happens on ubuntu too with system Ogre - debian/ubuntu Ogres are
not found by the cmake stuff in SkyX, i don't know why really. Is in
tracker: "SkyX does not build on stock Ubuntu 11.10"
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/issues/320

We talked that can fix that in our copy of SkyX in the Tundra deps repo,
just need to make it find Ogre like Tundra itself does or somehow.
For graphical linux use i've been using a ppa for other reasons (to get
cg support) -- with that ogredev thing SkyX works, builds out of the
box. I think also for the Chiru folks which have recently switched to
using source builds Ogre, or?

SkyX is of course totally optional, the quick fix is to disable it. On
server especially as there it is not used, is just a sky rendering
plugin. This is how that is done (copy-pasted from the issue comments):

"As a workaround, can comment out all SkyX -related items in
build-ubuntu-deps.bash, and set ENABLE_SKYX to 0 in
CMakeBuildConfig.txt"

That CMakeBuildConfig.txt file is made by the build system, by copying
CMakeBuildConfigTemplate.txt to that name.

~Toni

> 
> + SKYX_SOURCE_DIR=/opt/naali-deps/build/realxtend-tundra-deps/skyx
> + cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/opt/naali-deps/install .
> -- Configuring SKYX 0.2.1
> -- Search path:
> CMake Warning at CMake/SkyXDependencies.cmake:59 (find_package):
>   Could not find module FindOGRE.cmake or a configuration file for
> package
>   OGRE.
> 
>   Adjust CMAKE_MODULE_PATH to find FindOGRE.cmake or set OGRE_DIR to
> the
>   directory containing a CMake configuration file for OGRE.  The file
> will
>   have one of the following names:
> 
> OGREConfig.cmake
> ogre-config.cmake
> 
> Call Stack (most recent call first):
>   CMakeLists.txt:107 (include)
> 
> 
> -- Could NOT find Doxygen (missing:  DOXYGEN_EXECUTABLE)
> CMake Warning at CMake/SkyXDependencies.cmake:75 (find_package):
>   Could not find module FindOIS.cmake or a configuration file for
> package
>   OIS.
> 
>   Adjust CMAKE_MODULE_PATH to find FindOIS.cmake or set OIS_DIR to the
>   directory containing a CMake configuration file for OIS.  The file
> will
>   have one of the following names:
> 
> OISConfig.cmake
> ois-config.cmake
> 
> Call Stack (most recent call first):
>   CMakeLists.txt:107 (include)
> 
> 
> CMake Error at CMake/Utils/SkyXMacroLogFeature.cmake:95 (MESSAGE):
> 
> 
> 
>  
> -
> 
> 
>   -- The following REQUIRED packages could NOT be located on your
> system.
> 
>   -- Please install them before continuing this software installation.
> 
>   -- If you are in Windows, try passing -DSKYX_DEPENDENCIES_DIR= to
>   dependencies>
> 
> 
>  
> -
> 
> 
>   + OGRE: 3D library needed for the OgreGraphics plugin 
> 
>   + OIS: Input library needed for the OISInput plugin
>   
> 
> 
>  
> -
> Call Stack (most recent call first):
>   CMake/SkyXDependencies.cmake:83 (MACRO_DISPLAY_FEATURE_LOG)
>   CMakeLists.txt:107 (include)
> 
> 
> -- Configuring incomplete, errors occurred!
> 
> 
> Any pointers on where to look or what to do here?
> 
> I have also installed libois-dev in addition to the listed
> requirements, but no difference.
> (This is prety much the same result as I am seeing on the Ubuntu build
> system at work too :-( )
> 


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Re: [realXtend] compiling error (Ubuntu Oneiric 64-bit)

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:59 AM, glenalec wrote:
> Having yet another go at compiling here. Bogged at this point :-(
> Compiling the deps from build-ubuntu-deps.bash seemed to work, then:

If that script completes, it has built Tundra itself too. Is a bit badly named, 
as it doesn't only build the deps, but after those the the app/sdk itself as 
well. So did all of that script work for you, or did it fail at some point?

I've recently installed Tundra from scratch on Oneiric 64bit, to a server in a 
virtual machine (is running at playsign.fi both 2345 (now tcp) with knet and a 
test backend for the Flash (stage3d with away3d) client)). Works with the stock 
Ogre from Ubuntu etc (the ppa for ogre is not needed anymore, except to get 
shaders with cg, which I ofc didn't need on a headless server).

> /opt/naali$ NAALI_DEP_PATH=/opt/naali-deps/ cmake -Wno-dev .

After running the script, to rebuild after git pull or own modifications, just 
'make' usually suffices for me. If it borks about cmake probs after bigger 
changes in the project, I usually just run the whole build script again (as 
don't remember how to set that env var and am not sure if it suffices).

~Toni

> === Configuring Dependencies ===
> 
> ** Configuring BOOST
> -- checking for module 'Boost'
> --   package 'Boost' not found
> -- checking for module 'boost'
> --   package 'boost' not found
> -- sagase: trying brute-force search
> -- sagase: BOOST Configure Results.
> -- -- Library Directories:
> --/usr/lib
> -- -- Libraries:
> --boost_thread
> --boost_regex
> 
> ** Configuring QT4
> -- checking for module 'Qt4'
> --   package 'Qt4' not found
> -- sagase: configured QT4 using find_package
> -- sagase: QT4 Configure Results.
> 
> ** Configuring PYTHON
> -- sagase: configured PYTHON using find_package
> -- sagase: PYTHON Configure Results.
> -- -- Include Directories:
> --/usr/include/python2.7
> -- -- Libraries:
> --/usr/lib/libpython2.7.so
> 
> ** Configuring PYTHON_QT
> -- checking for module 'PythonQt'
> --   package 'PythonQt' not found
> -- sagase: trying brute-force search
> CMake Error at cmake/Sagase.cmake:269 (message):
>  !! sagase: unable to configure PYTHON_QT
> Call Stack (most recent call first):
>  cmake/ConfigurePackages.cmake:145 (sagase_configure_package)
>  CMakeLists.txt:309 (configure_python_qt)
> 
> 
> -- Configuring incomplete, errors occurred!
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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Re: [realXtend] Tundra goes to web.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Wed, 2011-12-28 at 18:10 +0200, Jukka Jylänki wrote:
> A small teaser of an upcoming project I got started on during this
> holiday season.
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40949268/TundraWebPlugin.png

Cool stuff!

> The image shows Tundra scenes embedded to web pages in Firefox and
> Chrome on Windows. The feature is very experimental (read, hacks all

We are also continuing on the web client front, with the different
approach of not using Ogre & Qt but stuff that's available in the
browsers. I see the whole browser issue as two fold, meaning either tech
that:

a) Works in a browser, so the user can open the world by opening the
familiar web browser and going to the right address. This is what the
plugin gives, and it can make a diff as people don't need to open
separate applications. The difference is not huge compared to using the
full client application, though, as you still need to download+install,
and also the current client opens automatically from web page logins.
But it might still make a crucial difference.

b) Runs without installing anything manually. This is the idea in the
WebNaali (or WebTundra if you prefer) effort with websocket & webgl - it
just works when those techs are available, without any downloads or
installs.

There's now a project that's interested in the b) approach, but that
requires voice (mumble-like talking with people). Reading the mic etc is
not available in browsers yet (WebRTC is in the works though), so we've
now been testing Flash. Flash client techs somewhat fit the b) 'no
install' requirement as some >90% of users have it preinstalled (for
example youtube still doesn't work without it by default).

For voice-in-browser / flash based voice we've now settled on at least
testing the pretty neat looking open source tech from
http://bigbluebutton.org/ . Also making a mumble voip plugin was in the
list of options - i suppose it can work in the plugin you've been
working on?

An interesting thing with Flash now is that it now (finally!) has
hardware accelerated 3d rendering support too. Even Unity3D has it as an
export target in the 3.5 developer beta that came out just before
christmas. Worked ok in our tests so far. Requires updating Flash to the
new version (11), though, but perhaps people do that anyway and new
machines seem to come with it preinstalled (at least a new macbook
did). 

We are now making scene rendering tests with the open source away3d
flash lib, which might be suitable for making a reX / Tundra compliant
client (similar to WebNaali). Benefit of Flash over WebGL is that it
works in all browsers (i.e. including Internet Explorer) and it may
possibly be faster (if that stage3d api does more in native code,
haven't checked nor tested yet). And presumably it works similarily in
all browsers (with webgl firefox is currently at least sometimes much
slower than chrome - opera is getting it too in 12 but we haven't tested
that). With the AIR runtime it may also work in iOS (iphone&ipad) and
android devices, but I understood that those don't have the 3d support
yet.

No one seems to be a great fan of Flash nowadays (except the makers of
unity3d flash support who seem enthusiastic about that new runtime :),
but it can anyhow be a practical solution now in that customer project
for which we are making the tests. We can probably tell the results
later (by late January) and if it results in making some kind of a reX
client hopefully have that as open source normally etc. Flash itself is
proprietary but it doesn't prevent doing open source projects on top of
it, there are many out there.

> This approach is parallel to how Unity Web Player works. Perhaps it
> becomes a stable part of Tundra in the future.

Yes this might well complement the native Tundra offering.

BTW Unity3d also seemed to have a Google Native Client (NaCl) version of
the player now - that's pretty cool as that way native code can be just
downloaded and executed, in a secure sandbox, automatically without
manual installs. Unfortunately is again a Chrome only tech so far, the
spec is open and they hope other browser makers would implement it too
but I don't know if anyone will.

>jj

~Toni


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Re: [realXtend] Avatar model

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 20, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Ali Kämäräinen wrote:
> Unfortunately these files seem to be vanished from the web. Luckily I could 
> locate them otherwise and they are now hosted at my personal DropBox:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16413694/rex/realxtend_avatars_3dsmax.zip
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16413694/rex/realxtend_avatars_obj.zip

Great, thanks!

Also coincidentally we need the sources (blends) of the new avatars by Boris 
now again, he should be really putting them available this time .. so with some 
luck I can give URLs tomorrow for those too.

> Ali Kämäräinen

~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] blender conference talk video

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 16, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Ali Kämäräinen wrote:
> Nice presentation Toni! Hopefully stirred some new interested in realXtend 
> and Tundra.

Thanks. And it certainly did! Was fun later that afternoon and also during the 
conference dinner in the evening, people came wondering if their scenes would 
work. 

They had they laptops and we just got the blends over with a mem stick, opened 
them in my laptop in Blender, pressed blender2ogre/rex's world update button, 
and saw it working ok there in Ogre :) .. and we could then use Tundra's EC 
editor etc to put SkyX in etc. 

One person had exactly that need: he needed a good realtime sky vis thing. 
Otherwise he was happy already with the Blender GE.

Other is a French robots lab where they currently already use the Blender GE to 
simulate environments for robot AI. The AI doesn't know whether it is in RL or 
just in simulation. They have need for networked things now, so reX-Tundra is 
interesting. We encountered only one prob: the still missing inverse kinetics. 
But that's a story on it's own.

And one person had nice laser scans, from the Acropolis in Greece actually - we 
tested it with the raw data, it ran fine (25fps in blender and 50 in 
tundra-ogre). 700k faces iirc. He had also the cleaned-up & optimized ones, but 
was interesting to see that heavy one. That took a bit of work, eventually I 
just disabled raycasting alltogether .. as it always crashed in the somehow 
invalid mesh data. Was a bit tricky to use when couldn't use mouse to select 
objects for editing, or use the 3d gizmo, but basically ok using scenestruct to 
find them etc :p But was fun to hack that after the dinner in the restaurant 
(film museum, actually). A couple of guys watched it from the start, the gdb 
debugging, so then got a tour of the codebase as i made the hack :p

> Ali Kämäräinen

~Toni

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[realXtend] blender conference talk video

[Toni Alatalo]

is up on youtube, thanks for the bconf folks - i posted about it to the 
http://www.realxtend.org/ blog .. 
http://realxtend.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/tundra-and-blender-integration-demo-presentation/

will need to install blender2ogre on more computers and configure it fully for 
the nice integration to work etc., has been really nice to have at hand -- 
thanks Brett for the work, and help with preparing the demo too!

~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] For Interest: Dipping a toe in the Open Wonderland

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 16, 2011, at 2:06 AM, glenalec wrote:
> had a bit of a play with Open Wonderland yesterday - just to see what
> it was like over on that side.

Cool - has been in my agenda to test again, was testing jMonkeyEngine (again) 
for other reasons earlier this week.

> Quite nice environment, good security model and nice clean web-
> interface to the server.

Yep.

The architectures of Tundra and Open Wonderland are quite similar actually, I 
wrote a little comparison in spring after looking into a bit - the note is at: 
https://github.com/realXtend/doc/blob/master/arch_article/wonderland.rst

We are on-line friends with some of the devs and like to talk etc., and there 
was even an interoperability test of asset servers >year ago (organized by 
immersive edu, IIRC Mikko Pallari from the reX side tested that Naali could use 
assets from Wonderland asset servers ok - they are also just normal web (http) 
servers which host e.g. mesh and texture files).

> stuff, but even accounting for that, it seemed a VERY heavy (and
> consequently slugish to the point of being annoying to use) system
> compared to what I am used to with both the OpenSim and Tundra
> environments.

Apparently that comparison note also guesses this: "OWL is fully written in 
Java, including the core and the rendering engine used (jMonkeyEngine, similar 
to Ogre3d but written in Java). realXtend core is C++ and the main libraries 
used (Ogre3d, Qt) are c++ as well. This may result in performance differences" 
..

I haven't tested Wonderland with complex worlds nor on poor computers, but yes 
it is sometimes the case that Java based things are on the heavy side. Would be 
interesting to know actually where the bottlenecks / weight are in the case of 
Open Wonderland -- simple jMonkeyEngine demos are not so heavy? Also e.g. most 
android apps are java and run fine on puny hardware but that's a bit different 
story, just to note that Java is not always so heavy.

But indeed it is an upside in Tundra that we have efficient native stuff. I've 
been now testing Ogre stuff on iOS, and at least the first test blend runs fine 
on my 2 year old iPhone 3GS -- we'll test soon with more heavy scenes that have 
with desktop Ogre and reX earlier.

And we have efficient UDP networking with kNet which is suitable for realtime 
action games even -- Wonderland uses the ex-Sun Darkstar stuff which to my 
surprise seemed to be limited to TCP? -- at least Wonderland itself had TCP 
only if I recall correctly. Sure TCP is often fine, for meetings and slower 
action (e.g. World of Warcraft uses TCP only -- is sometimes used as a warning 
example of it, but I guess is usually ok).

> In the end, while security and administrative concepts present in the
> system were certainly very well thought out, the implimentation was
> just unusable. :-(

As mentioned in that comparison, the architectures are so similar that at least 
designs can be reused.

Tundra is made with the Entity-Component model. In Wonderland those are called 
'capabilities'. For example Wonderland has a 'security' capability, which 
implements permissions. And e.g. having a mesh renderable, or an object being 
defined as a sittarget, are other capabilities. 

Similarily we have EC_Mesh and custom sittarget components etc. with Tundra. 
And permissions can be added with for example a custom component, where you put 
e.g. the id of the owner of the object, and permission options, as the data. 
Logic can be in custom C++, Py or Javascript module that you enable on your 
server. There is a note in the issue tracker that we could provide a basic 
implementation that works out of the box, and which can be used as an example 
for implementing other security schema: 
Implement support for creating user rights management scripts, and provide 
users with script examples. https://github.com/realXtend/naali/issues/105 (the 
first step towards this in code, an example which now just denies all remote 
editing, is
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/jsmodules/apitest/permissioncheck.js)

> Still, I'd recomend having a look at it if you have a spare hour-or-
> two to get JavaDE-6 installed and behaving itself - getting Wonderland
> to run was a snap, it was getting the JDE in first that was wrecking
> my day! (It needs the JDE, the JSE won't work it).

Oh, I didn't really notice that *DE requirement then, but indeed had apt-get 
doing downloads for a while on the Ubuntu laptop where tested it. But yep then 
it was nice to get running, the whole own local server biz with the web login 
etc.

The jMonkeyEngine demos, which should be simple to run and require only the 
normal Java Runtime (JVM?) which many computers already have, are at 
http://jmonkeyengine.com/demo/webstart/ . It is an old engine that has always 
seemed nice, and Wonderland also switched to using it recently (for graphics). 
We (at Playsign for a possible project) have done a little research on the 
browser based / easy web start reX

Re: [realXtend] Quickie: A question of scale.

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 9, 2011, at 1:31 AM, glenalec wrote:
> Just a quick verification of an assumption: namely:
> The default scale used in ReX is 1unit=1m?
> (Obviously it is easy enough to have whatever local scale you want
> just by saying 'this is my scale' and doing all your modeling to that;

Yes - especially for the latter part: your scale is what you say it is.

AFAIK basic principle in computer worlds is that it is good to have 1.0 where 
you most need precision - if you make a galaxy, perhaps it's a  light year or 
so. This is because with very large or small numbers floating points are more 
imprecise. 

> however there is presumably a need for a standard scale for inter-
> operability if you want to have 3rd-party objects and avatars entering
> the world without scale-mismatch issues.)

Yes, and the default avatars are in 1 unit = 1 meter scale (e.g. the current 
ones in www.realxtend.org service - hey Boris you still haven't put the blend 
files anywhere?)

That is good for human scale things.

> Or does ReX have facilities to auto-rescale import objects
> (particularly external avatars) if the world needs a different scale?

It is easy to script, with a couple of lines of Javascript for example.

~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] How to add our own function to Tundra2?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 30, 2011, at 9:05 PM, Zhao Boxuan wrote:
> I just downloaded the Tundra2.1.3 and its source code. I am planning
> to develop some motion planning demos on Tundra2. However, the
> documentation seems outdated and there is no instructions for how to
> edit the .txml file to make a new scene(add some CAD models) or add

We usually make scenes, at least any more complex ones and when doing new 
polygon modelling, in a modelling app like Blender or 3ds max or Maya or such.

>From those you can export in the dotscene (.scene) format which is sometimes 
>used with Ogre, and which Tundra can import directly.

The new blender exporter (blender2ogre) can also do txml, and has a nice live 
preview system.

If you just make a simple scene with existing meshes, you can just drag & drop 
those from filesystem to the tundra 3d window, to add them to your scene. With 
shift-e you get the entity-component editing window open, and that also enables 
the simple 3d manipulation gui.

TXML is not usually edited by hand, but Tundra with the scene structure & 
entity component editors, + the 3d manipulation tools, is the editor.

> some new callback function(like mousemove callback or keyboard
> callback). The only thing now I can do is use the default demo.

The example scenes / applications are in the 'scenes' directory in release 
(bin/scenes/ in the source repo). Many of those have callbacks. 

The documentation of the core input api InputContext object, which has signals 
KeyEventReceived and MouseEventReceived, is at 
http://www.realxtend.org/doxygen/class_input_context.html#a0656a7bd87ae184eacaf1759169dbe05

Many applications, for example the simple reference / default avatar thing, 
uses entity actions for input .. e.g. 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/scenes/Avatar/simpleavatar.js#L431
 .. but that may not be necessary for you if you don't need to send your 
commands over the network to server.

> Could anyone tell me how can I start?

The interactive Python console, bundled in the SDK release, is one way to 
explore the api .. put test functions to key handling etc.

And JS with the automatic reloading is really nice -- just make a js file and 
e.g. that to a EC_Script in your scene (almost all of the example scenes do 
this), or to your plugins.xml to load at startup .. 

The default free camera js is loaded by 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/jsmodules/startup/cameraapplication.js
 from jsmodules/startup/ folder. the actual free cam script is also a nice 
example, with mouse and keyboard handling 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/jsmodules/camera/freelookcamera.js
 

You can also just do this to run a script: Tundra.exe --file 
/my/project/myscript.js .. to run that code at startup, and e.g. start 
listening to the mouse etc.

> Besides, I have some python script. I see there is a project called
> PythonScriptModule, so it seems like I can import my python script.
> Could anyone give me a short instruction to deal with that, or
> somewhere I can get help?

Python plugins can also be put to plugins.xml for loading -- there are a few 
ones ported to tundra2 now in the repo (the irc relay and the websocket server 
i think). 

There are also some unit tests written in Python which perhaps give the feel of 
the api nicely: 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/pyplugins/lib/apitests.py

So there's some pointers, please ask more to not get blocked. We are working 
towards next release, porting demos and updating docs etc also, but are happy 
to help here in the meantime too. And on #realxtend-dev on freenode irc.

Cheers,
~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] Avatar model

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 24, 2011, at 3:48 PM, Teemu Siltanen wrote:
> I quess blender files would work fine as long as they are in modifiable 
> format. I couldn't find them by googling though, but if someone can upload 
> them somewhere it would be nice.

Boris said (in IM) that he can put them up, not right now but soon (I 
understood that within hours or a day or so).

> -Teemu

~Toni

-- 
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Re: [realXtend] Avatar model

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 24, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Teemu Siltanen wrote:
> I found that too, but it only contains meshes, skeletons, materials, xmls and 
> images, but not the actual model (.3ds, .obj) which could be modified to 
> create new animations.

The 4avatar ones are put together in blender (models from makehuman, animations 
from mocap) so Boris has those blend files and I guess can put somewhere. The 
skeleton is IIRC compatible with the standard MH one animationwise.

The old Jack etc are afaik made with 3ds, dunno if Ludocraft has those 
available somewhere.

~Toni

-- 
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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Avatar model

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 24, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Jonne Nauha wrote:
> Google code download section has this 
> http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/downloads/detail?name=Naali-ExtraAvatars.zip

Those are the old ones, though -- the current default ones e.g. on the 
www.realxtend.org demo server are from the 4avatars project by Boris et al, are 
those available somewhere? They have the motion captured animations etc.

LVM / Chesapeake bay has other nice ones made with Evolver, AFAIK those are 
with the reX creative commons license too.

> Jonne Nauha

~Toni

> 
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Teemu Siltanen  
> wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> Is there anywhere downloadable version of the model used to create existing 
> mesh&skeleton of avatar? 
> With some googling it seems that it at least has been available at 
> http://realxtend.org/page.php?pg=downloads under Additional files, but those 
> links are broken now (I suppose that page shouldn't exist since there are no 
> links leading to it anywhere on http://realxtend.wordpress.com/).
> 
> -Teemu
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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Re: [realXtend] display Tundra 2.1.3 on internet browser

[Toni Alatalo]

Forgot to mention an easy way to preview for 3d scene in a web browser:

>> I have a Tundra scene created on version 2.1.3 and would like to
>> display/run on internet browser...
>> is it possible at this stage?
>> can anyone guide me how to do or where can I find the information?

http://ourbricks.com/ - a 3d model sharing site, but you can also specify that 
your model is private etc.

Uses the same GLGE engine has WebNaali does. Has a simple upload form etc. So 
you can test how it looks there, and it will be the same in WebNaali (where you 
then also have a live connection to a Tundra server etc).

Ourbricks is by the Sirikata folks, uses the same KataJS thing has their 
browser client -- also their native client is Ogre, so on the rendering side 
Sirikata and realXtend are identical both for native and js sides, which is 
great. Possibly some other things are in common in the future too, we'll see.

We also have a simple scenetest.html that works with all versions and Chrome 
and also Firefox, but there is no UI for it (you just need to edit the link to 
the Collada file in the html, which is in the WebNaali repo), so using 
Ourbricks is easier and the same thing (GLGE).

>> Neil

~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] display Tundra 2.1.3 on internet browser

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 1, 2011, at 8:25 AM, Mikko Pallari wrote:
> AFAIK WebNaali currently works only on Chrome 13. Web socket implementation 
> has changed in Chrome's later version and that is why it doesn't work on 14 
> or 15. I don't know if there has been any development since I last checked, 
> but this was the status few weeks ago.

I actually got the basic port to a new websocket lib done last week on Friday 
evening (as part of preparing demos at the Blender conference..). Also the port 
of the websocket server to Tundra 2. It now works with current & dev Chromes 
(14, 15, and I hope the 16 and 17 and whatever they have).

Is currently in a branch, as had to do a little hack in the core AssetModule 
(to not try to communicate asset storage info with the knet mechanisms to 
websocket clients): https://github.com/realXtend/naali/commits/websocket

Next steps are to test more, update the demo, merge to mainline for the next 
release etc. Hopefully all that happens this week!

> As for the scene itself, it needs to be in collada format for the browser.
> I think that this is the latest readme for setting the service up: 
> https://github.com/realXtend/WebNaali/blob/master/README.mediawiki

Yep, instructions and documentation are to be improved, but have to get it 
fully working first.

> Mikko

~Toni

> 
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:36 AM, chatpakorn prasertsung  
> wrote:
> Hi guys,
> just wonder, I have seen "web-nali" which can display on Crome and firefox.
> just a quick question...
> 
> I have a Tundra scene created on version 2.1.3 and would like to
> display/run on internet browser...
> is it possible at this stage?
> can anyone guide me how to do or where can I find the information?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Neil
> 
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Blender2Ogre 0.5.6 beta

[Toni Alatalo]

On Sat, 2011-10-29 at 01:46 -0700, MasterJ wrote:
> actually i have try to upload 2 cube, one big yellow and one little
> pink but on tundra i only have the big yellow cube any idea how to
> upload them all?
> if i'm right i must select all i want to upload before doing it right?

Yes, it syncs selected objects, so for full scene just select all
(ctrl-a).

I had problems with several cubes, it always replaced the old one with
the new when changed selection or something.

When added several differently named meshes (cube, cylinder, suzanne,
sphere, ..) they all showed and worked independently correctly. So I
think it is some naming conflict with the cubes, didn't quite get nor
debug it yet.

My presentation with general Tundra demoing + blender2ogre usage is
today at 1545 dutch time (now is 1122 so in 4,5hours), link to stream is
at http://www.blender.org/community/blender-conference/ .. hopefully it
works then too! *fingers-crossed* .. has been quite reliable actually
*knocked-on-wood*. Brett may will join remotely from Manila,
Philippines, too :)

> MasterJ

~Toni

> On 27 oct, 12:30, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
> > Thanks for the updates, Brett!
> >
> > I made some fixes to make it work properly for me:
> > * Tundra launching sets Tundra's working directory correctly
> > * (commented out lots of debug prints about material parsing)
> > * Removed the use of the bpy namespace in the networking thread -- this 
> > fixed a Blender stall that got otherwise always when deleted objects
> >
> > Pushed those to my clone 
> > inhttps://code.google.com/r/antont-blender2ogre/source/list
> >
> > Am basically set now to demo at least the basics on Saturday (14pm Dutch 
> > time) at the Blender conference, let's talk more on irc / skype / 
> > something, perhaps could even arrange so that you could participate 
> > remotely in the presentation .. if there are questions from the audience 
> > etc.
> >
> > ~Toni
> 


-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Blender2Ogre 0.5.6 beta

[Toni Alatalo]

Thanks for the updates, Brett!

I made some fixes to make it work properly for me:
* Tundra launching sets Tundra's working directory correctly
* (commented out lots of debug prints about material parsing)
* Removed the use of the bpy namespace in the networking thread -- this fixed a 
Blender stall that got otherwise always when deleted objects

Pushed those to my clone in 
https://code.google.com/r/antont-blender2ogre/source/list

Am basically set now to demo at least the basics on Saturday (14pm Dutch time) 
at the Blender conference, let's talk more on irc / skype / something, perhaps 
could even arrange so that you could participate remotely in the presentation 
.. if there are questions from the audience etc.

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Keeping everything together

[Toni Alatalo]

20.10.2011 20:20, Evan kirjoitti:

I have to be able to run the Tundra server with the .txml, and within
it, reference assets on the same server in a sub directory and not
have to point to an HTTP source.


The server can of course load them from it's local file system, but in 
that case the clients don't somehow automatically get them. So, with 
current code, the answer is no.


You can of course put a http server on that server, and make that serve 
that subdirectory, if it is the directory layout you are talking about.


If your need is to do Second Life style transfer of assets in the scene 
connection, that is possible to implement (Ludo has for example done 
something with knet asset transfers), but not available out of the box now.



-Evan


~Toni

--
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] open/close door in Tundra2

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 20, 2011, at 3:34 AM, chatpakorn prasertsung wrote:
> the example can apply with Tundra 2.1 right?

"can", yes, but does not now -- is untouched since 1.x (where worked), requires 
a little porting to 2 (just the usual *Raw removals in the .js etc)

> Neil

~Toni

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:52 AM, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>> On Oct 18, 2011, at 5:38 AM, chatpakorn prasertsung wrote:
>> 
>> I plan to have just a simple door open/close, by mouse click or auto
>> when avatar close by.
>> can any one guide me with one is more easier for starter?
>> what step should I start to look into it?
>> do we need to created animation before import the mesh file?
>> 
>> There actually is a door example, in scenes/Door/ - bundled in release, and
>> also available
>> at https://github.com/realXtend/naali/tree/tundra2/bin/scenes/Door
>> the source
>> is 
>> https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/scenes/Door/door.coffee 
>> (when
>> porting the door from python to javascript, used the opportunity to test
>> Coffeescript -- that is a nice lang which is generated to js -- the
>> coffee.js is what Tundra uses to run and that's readable too if you prefer
>> normal js syntax)
>> It is not ported to tundra2 yet and not documented, but works and is
>> actually quite featureful.
>> As the model uses a sliding door that is rigged and skeletally animated (in
>> Blender). The door has also custom data, as it can be locked, and there are
>> custom gui buttons to control it too.
>> 
>> I have just little knowledge about coding  in Action script , so is it
>> possible to achieve it by my skill?
>> or you think it is too complicate for me.
>> 
>> It is simple, certainly doable with Flash .as experience (.as is also .js,
>> and the Tundra js api is not awful).
>> I port the example to current as soon as get a chance, and can answer
>> questions in the meantime.
>> 
>> Chatpakorn
>> 
>> ~Toni
>> 
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] open/close door in Tundra2

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 18, 2011, at 5:38 AM, chatpakorn prasertsung wrote:
> I plan to have just a simple door open/close, by mouse click or auto
> when avatar close by.
> can any one guide me with one is more easier for starter?
> what step should I start to look into it?
> do we need to created animation before import the mesh file?

There actually is a door example, in scenes/Door/ - bundled in release, and 
also available at 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/tree/tundra2/bin/scenes/Door 

the source is 
https://github.com/realXtend/naali/blob/tundra2/bin/scenes/Door/door.coffee 
(when porting the door from python to javascript, used the opportunity to test 
Coffeescript -- that is a nice lang which is generated to js -- the coffee.js 
is what Tundra uses to run and that's readable too if you prefer normal js 
syntax)

It is not ported to tundra2 yet and not documented, but works and is actually 
quite featureful.

As the model uses a sliding door that is rigged and skeletally animated (in 
Blender). The door has also custom data, as it can be locked, and there are 
custom gui buttons to control it too.

> I have just little knowledge about coding  in Action script , so is it
> possible to achieve it by my skill?
> or you think it is too complicate for me.

It is simple, certainly doable with Flash .as experience (.as is also .js, and 
the Tundra js api is not awful).

I port the example to current as soon as get a chance, and can answer questions 
in the meantime.

> Chatpakorn

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] realXtend server aborting on startup

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 18, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Warren wrote:
> start Tundra.exe --server --headless --protocol UDP  --file C:\tundra
> 2. Fails after the following lines:
> Renderer: Initializing Ogre
> *-*-* Initializing Ogre
> *-*-* Version 1.7.3 (Cthugha)
> One of the output lines of code from Tundra reports we are trying to
> start Tundra as a Windows GUI and then proceeds to open a command
> prompt and then begins the startup.

would using the nullrenderer help here? 

did it work just by editing Ogre's config, disabling the direct-x & opengl 
plugins? like this in plugins.cfg
# Render systems
Plugin=RenderSystem_Direct3D9
Plugin=RenderSystem_GL
Plugin=RenderSystem_NULL

to:
#Plugin=RenderSystem_Direct3D9
#Plugin=RenderSystem_GL
Plugin=RenderSystem_NULL

i can test when am on windows at some point, now on a mac.

i wonder what that 'start as Windows GUI' means exactly.

> Warren

~Toni

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Re: [realXtend] Re: Mouse look/rotation doesn't work on AvatarApp with too many entities in Tundra 2 scene

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 15, 2011, at 3:02 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
>> Tundra 2.1.1 without any traces of old version and still I have some problem 
>> with Avatar-demo. It looks like the Avatar-entity loses mouse-inputmapper 
>> totally when its entitynumber is around 100 and up. 
> was not able to repeat this. Did this on Tundra 2.0 on Mac OS X:

oh I think something weird did happen to me too: mouse scroll (to move cam 
closer / further from av, the third person cam) continues to work, but looks as 
if doing the rotation with rightbutton-drag stops working. connected a mouse to 
the mac to be able to test better.

will test on other platforms too later.

as Jonne said there are scenes with hundreds of entities, which are used with 
av app, and we haven't been aware of probs .. i guess people do use mouse 
rotate for av so often that it would have popped out. is possible that is a 
version diff, at least the admino hosting system has some modified version of 
the av app.

> ~Toni

same.

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Re: [realXtend] Re: Mouse look/rotation doesn't work on AvatarApp with too many entities in Tundra 2 scene

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 11, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Teemu Siltanen wrote:
> Am I really only one with this problem or are everyone else using their 
> custom-made avatar scripts? I removed Tundra 2.0 and installed Tundra 2.1.1 
> without any traces of old version and still I have some problem with 
> Avatar-demo. It looks like the Avatar-entity loses mouse-inputmapper totally 
> when its entitynumber is around 100 and up. 

I was not able to repeat this. Did this on Tundra 2.0 on Mac OS X:

* start bundled avatar.txml (./Tundra --server --file scenes/Avatar/avatar.txml)
* select Fish entity in scenestruct, press command-c to copy it, and hold 
command-v to get >100 copies of it
(* watch the hilarious events as a constant stream of huge fishes spawns on top 
of each other and physics make them fly around :)
* login to the server with a client (./Tundra --config viewer.xml --storage 
scenes/Avatar/)
* got an av ok, could move with it etc.

> I've been banging my head to this for some time now and I would greatly 
> appreciate if anyone could help me with this.

As no one has been able to repeat so far, I think is best to debug in your 
environment.

> - Teemu

~Toni

-- 
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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Web Cam

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 14, 2011, at 7:57 PM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> * they are update live, not only to you but to only clients

bleh sent too quickly & tired, made confusing typos apparently -- tried to 
mention:
"they (the parameters in ec editor) are update live, not only to you but also 
to other clients"

hopefully using the tools works for you!

> - save the scene from scene-window - rightclick - 'save scene as' when done.
> 
>> Evan
> 
> ~Toni
> 
>> On Oct 14, 10:40 am, Jonne Nauha  wrote:
>>> That webcam module I made wont help you get image from web or share you
>>> webcam to others. It was only meant for local viewing of webcam, which is
>>> not very useful tbh.
>>> 
>>> We do however have EC_MediaPlayer that can play video streams. So just get
>>> the webcams stream url and put it to the ECs media ref and hit play, see
>>> what happens. Remember to keep the streaming allowed boolean true (the
>>> default). Make some mesh, then apply EC_MediaPlayer to the same entity.
>>> Check interactive true, youll get a menu when you click the screen to
>>> play/pause/show 2D player widget.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Jonne Nauha
>>> Adminotech developer
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Evan  wrote:
>>>> Heyall,
>>> 
>>>> I see mention of a web cam at
>>>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Tundra
>>>> under 1.0.6 features and am wondering if there's a way to implement it
>>>> in Tundra 2.1.1.
>>> 
>>>> I'd like to be able to view a webcam I have setup remotely.
>>> 
>>>> Thank you ever again,
>>> 
>>>> Evan
>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>>>> http://www.realxtend.org
>> 
>> -- 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Web Cam

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 14, 2011, at 7:17 PM, Evan wrote:
> possibly help me with the syntax for the Entity, Component and
> Attributes for implementing the EC_MediaPlayer into the .txml file?

You don't usually edit the XML by hand - instead, use the scene & entity 
editing GUI, for example:

- open scenestruct (shift-s or menu -> view -> scene)
- right-click on the entity where you want to show a video stream
- choose 'add component'
- select MediaPlayer in the dropdown dialog
- after adding the component, doubleclick on the entity to get it open in 
EC-editor and set the params
 * they are update live, not only to you but to only clients
- save the scene from scene-window - rightclick - 'save scene as' when done.

> Evan

~Toni

> On Oct 14, 10:40 am, Jonne Nauha  wrote:
>> That webcam module I made wont help you get image from web or share you
>> webcam to others. It was only meant for local viewing of webcam, which is
>> not very useful tbh.
>> 
>> We do however have EC_MediaPlayer that can play video streams. So just get
>> the webcams stream url and put it to the ECs media ref and hit play, see
>> what happens. Remember to keep the streaming allowed boolean true (the
>> default). Make some mesh, then apply EC_MediaPlayer to the same entity.
>> Check interactive true, youll get a menu when you click the screen to
>> play/pause/show 2D player widget.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Jonne Nauha
>> Adminotech developer
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Evan  wrote:
>>> Heyall,
>> 
>>> I see mention of a web cam at
>>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Tundra
>>> under 1.0.6 features and am wondering if there's a way to implement it
>>> in Tundra 2.1.1.
>> 
>>> I'd like to be able to view a webcam I have setup remotely.
>> 
>>> Thank you ever again,
>> 
>>> Evan
>> 
>>> --
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>>> http://www.realxtend.org
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

-- 
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Re: [realXtend] Re: Avatars on Local Host

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Evan wrote:
> Even when I load the avatar.txml scene as the server, I'm inside a
> camera and not an avatar.

That avatarapplication.js does not give avatars to the server, only to clients 
that connect to a server where the av app is running.

The appearance file it uses is default_avatar.avatar -- a reX av xml file that 
points to Jack.mesh. Apparently with local:// refs now in at least the 2.1.0 
release which am using on this mac. To get avatars show, you need clients to 
find that av xml and the meshes (and further the materials and textures) used.

~Toni

> On Oct 12, 4:22 am, Ali Kämäräinen  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> The easiest way is to use the existing Avatar demo scene in
>> bin/scenes/Avatar and add it to your own scene/application.
>> See this recent thread for more 
>> information:http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend-dev/browse_thread/thread/1e4...
>> 
>> Grey skies,
>> Ali Kämäräinen
> 
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org

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Re: [realXtend] Re: localDir

[Toni Alatalo]

13.10.2011 19:33, Evan kirjoitti:

According to 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend-dev/browse_thread/thread/166a75aa4a8ef0d9
assets do not need to be placed where there is HTTP access using
'localDir=' in 'HttpAssetStorage'


Ah now I know what you mean -- that localDir setting is apparently to 
tell the server process that it can load the files directly from disk, 
in the case that they are hosted on the same machine.


But also with that you still need something else, e.g. a http server, to 
provide them for clients.


There is currently no mechanism to transfer assets from the simulation 
to clients, in the client connection, but instead external connections 
(often to separate asset servers) are used. We know that it's different 
in SL originally, and transferring assets in the same knet tundra 
connection would be possible, but is not there now. Also Linden 
introduced using http for textures a while ago.


Anyhow, perhaps just using a web server works for you too? Mac OS X 
comes with apache that is easy to enable from preferences, Windows comes 
with IIS iirc and you can install apache or whatever, and is well 
supported in the Linux lands of course. Or?



Evan


~Toni


On Oct 13, 11:18 am, Toni Alatalo  wrote:

On Oct 13, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Evan wrote:


Would anyone know how to properly utilize localDir for
HttpAssetStorage?
I'm trying to run a Tundra 2.1 server with local assets at 'C:\tundra
\working\assets\' and the .txml file at 'C:\tundra\working\'
Then I'll use the client software to connect remotely via the server's
IP address.

You need to put your dir somewhere to where there is HTTP access.

Your personal webspace, or even dropbox, works for developing and testing.

Some web hosting service then for for lots of usage.


Am I going about it the wrong way by putting in --file when I run
tundra.exe for server? Is there a better way of handling import of
assets? Do I need to place the .txml file and assets elsewhere?

--file is good for the server, to load the scene. Similar to how you can load 
OAR archives in Opensimulator, if you have happened to use that earlier.

But indeed the assets need to be on the web.

The TXML doesn't need to be on the web, as the scene data that is read from it 
on the server, is what is synched from Tundra server to clients when you login 
and use the server.


I have so many questions and there seems to be a lack of current
documentation for the latest Tundra server.

Almost everything is the same as for 1 series, the change to 2 was more in the 
internals.

The new thing in 2 is that you don't need to convert asset references (e.g. 
"my.mesh") in your txml when you use it on the server, as the server can tell a 
base url like thing (default storage, the url prefix basically) during login.


I appreciate all help, even if it's a step by step.

Thank you :) .. so at least now you know that need to use some http server for 
http access -- Tundra itself doesn't have one for asset serving purposes (it 
does have some http handlers in optional modules for other purposes).

I've so far been doing the annoying asset ref conversions (with scene 
publishing scripts) that Tundra1 required, am still not fully familiar with the 
base url / relative refs / default storage thing in 2 .. but have seen the 
console messages from it when running Tundra recently, and seems that it worked 
correctly automatically for me.


Evan

~Toni


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Re: [realXtend] Re: localDir

[Toni Alatalo]

13.10.2011 19:33, Evan kirjoitti:

It would be nice if I didn't have to post assets to a remote location
and just keep everything together.


Do you mean that you want to use the same machine where you run Tundra 
as your HTTP asset server too?


It is easy, just run some web server on it.


Evan


~Toni


On Oct 13, 11:18 am, Toni Alatalo  wrote:

On Oct 13, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Evan wrote:


Would anyone know how to properly utilize localDir for
HttpAssetStorage?
I'm trying to run a Tundra 2.1 server with local assets at 'C:\tundra
\working\assets\' and the .txml file at 'C:\tundra\working\'
Then I'll use the client software to connect remotely via the server's
IP address.

You need to put your dir somewhere to where there is HTTP access.

Your personal webspace, or even dropbox, works for developing and testing.

Some web hosting service then for for lots of usage.


Am I going about it the wrong way by putting in --file when I run
tundra.exe for server? Is there a better way of handling import of
assets? Do I need to place the .txml file and assets elsewhere?

--file is good for the server, to load the scene. Similar to how you can load 
OAR archives in Opensimulator, if you have happened to use that earlier.

But indeed the assets need to be on the web.

The TXML doesn't need to be on the web, as the scene data that is read from it 
on the server, is what is synched from Tundra server to clients when you login 
and use the server.


I have so many questions and there seems to be a lack of current
documentation for the latest Tundra server.

Almost everything is the same as for 1 series, the change to 2 was more in the 
internals.

The new thing in 2 is that you don't need to convert asset references (e.g. 
"my.mesh") in your txml when you use it on the server, as the server can tell a 
base url like thing (default storage, the url prefix basically) during login.


I appreciate all help, even if it's a step by step.

Thank you :) .. so at least now you know that need to use some http server for 
http access -- Tundra itself doesn't have one for asset serving purposes (it 
does have some http handlers in optional modules for other purposes).

I've so far been doing the annoying asset ref conversions (with scene 
publishing scripts) that Tundra1 required, am still not fully familiar with the 
base url / relative refs / default storage thing in 2 .. but have seen the 
console messages from it when running Tundra recently, and seems that it worked 
correctly automatically for me.


Evan

~Toni


--
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] localDir

[Toni Alatalo]

On Oct 13, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Evan wrote:
> Would anyone know how to properly utilize localDir for
> HttpAssetStorage?
> I'm trying to run a Tundra 2.1 server with local assets at 'C:\tundra
> \working\assets\' and the .txml file at 'C:\tundra\working\'
> Then I'll use the client software to connect remotely via the server's
> IP address.

You need to put your dir somewhere to where there is HTTP access.

Your personal webspace, or even dropbox, works for developing and testing.

Some web hosting service then for for lots of usage.

> Am I going about it the wrong way by putting in --file when I run
> tundra.exe for server? Is there a better way of handling import of
> assets? Do I need to place the .txml file and assets elsewhere?

--file is good for the server, to load the scene. Similar to how you can load 
OAR archives in Opensimulator, if you have happened to use that earlier.

But indeed the assets need to be on the web.

The TXML doesn't need to be on the web, as the scene data that is read from it 
on the server, is what is synched from Tundra server to clients when you login 
and use the server.

> I have so many questions and there seems to be a lack of current
> documentation for the latest Tundra server.

Almost everything is the same as for 1 series, the change to 2 was more in the 
internals.

The new thing in 2 is that you don't need to convert asset references (e.g. 
"my.mesh") in your txml when you use it on the server, as the server can tell a 
base url like thing (default storage, the url prefix basically) during login.

> I appreciate all help, even if it's a step by step.

Thank you :) .. so at least now you know that need to use some http server for 
http access -- Tundra itself doesn't have one for asset serving purposes (it 
does have some http handlers in optional modules for other purposes).

I've so far been doing the annoying asset ref conversions (with scene 
publishing scripts) that Tundra1 required, am still not fully familiar with the 
base url / relative refs / default storage thing in 2 .. but have seen the 
console messages from it when running Tundra recently, and seems that it worked 
correctly automatically for me.

> Evan


~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org