Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 7:58:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's not true of all of us by any means. Blacks women still face sexism. Why should we put that aside for the good of the race? When you listed to George Will, Bill Bennet, Juan Williams, or Chris Mattews, you would think that racism would disappear with the election Obama? I truly believe this is what non black america and parts of black America want. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
We'll stop you when you're wrong, Tracey. tdemorsella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While gymfig may have cut off the comment. I'm the one that said disintegrating. Perhaps it is an exaggeration. I certainly hope so. But in some parts of the country, black men have 50% unemployment, college grad rates of black men are decreasing dramatically, the percentage of Blacks marrying is dropping dramatically, blacks placed in prison for petty crimes is increasing, offsprings of middle class blacks are increasingly falling behind; college educated blacks are finding it increasingly difficult to find gainful employment, in states where affirmative action has been abolished blacks pursuing college degrees has been cut in half. Community organizations supporting Black communities are finding it increasingly difficult to secure funds needed for operation. I could cite other factors, but if it is not disintegrating, I think something bad is definitively happening to us and no has yet figured out how to stop it. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whoa. Whoa, wait. Whoa. Disintegrating? Whowhere? I¹m confused. HOW did we get here? You¹ve cut off the post you were responding to and I don¹t follow you right now at all. On 1/4/08 4:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:32:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:tdlists%40multiculturaladvantage.com writes: then somebody please tell me why the black community seems to be disintegrating. Black males AND black females must take some form of responsibility for their problems (education, crime, single homes) and stop blaming racism and one another. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Daryle, then George Soros is really confused right now. Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So wait. You¹re saying that if I¹m rich, I¹m a right winger by default? On 1/4/08 5:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:yokozuna%40globalsoulmedia.com writes: It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. Edwards is a very rich man Obama is a rich man To say that they respresent poor white men is a joke. Pba,as tried a liberal foreign policy in the debate and was criticized for it. Especially with his Palestinian people are opprssed speech. He will have to become more right wing to fit into a realistic real war. The Democratic controlled Congress has not been able to cut off funding or stop the war. Do you think Obama or Edwards can do that? The Pentagon and the corporations that put them there will not allow that to happen. Do no be so quick to be the liberal that could. Liberal Democrrats have not done anything for the war and have not done anything for this country. They still vote to send jobs pverseas/ They still fund the war. They still cant balence the budget. Obama will have to give in to conservative Republicans/ To say that he will be some great liberal savior is a joke. Even Edwards knows this. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Tracey, you're still on that roll. tdemorsella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my mind, it is all smoke and mirrors. The reason I wanted Edwards is his history of going for the corporate juggler and he seems to be a donor outsider. All are hungry for power and that brass ring. I think its about picking the lessor of all evils. Who is likely not to attack Iran. Who might cut a few taxes to look good. Who might restore some civil liberties or at least prevent some more from being taken away. Despite his riches, the powers that be went out of their way to marginalize Edwards and his history as an attack pit bull up against the big guys made me opt for him. I think his history and some of his rhetoric terrifies corporate America. That made him my choice as the lessor of all evils. I wanted Gore, because Gore in his writings admitted that before 2000, that he had sold his soul. I think the new Gore coming back from having the election stolen would not have sold his soul this time around. I also think he did not run because he knew that he would not be able to run and win unless he sold his soul. Selling your soul is a prerequisite for the job as the leader of our country. The powers that be have seen to that. I thought Edwards, still might have a little of his left intact --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. Edwards is a very rich man Obama is a rich man To say that they respresent poor white men is a joke. Pba,as tried a liberal foreign policy in the debate and was criticized for it. Especially with his Palestinian people are opprssed speech. He will have to become more right wing to fit into a realistic real war. The Democratic controlled Congress has not been able to cut off funding or stop the war. Do you think Obama or Edwards can do that? The Pentagon and the corporations that put them there will not allow that to happen. Do no be so quick to be the liberal that could. Liberal Democrrats have not done anything for the war and have not done anything for this country. They still vote to send jobs pverseas/ They still fund the war. They still cant balence the budget. Obama will have to give in to conservative Republicans/ To say that he will be some great liberal savior is a joke. Even Edwards knows this. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
(standing ovation) Keith, I've got a true story that you reminded me of when you commented about being followed by a security guard in a store. Back when I worked for Soulless Evil Inc (aka Federated DEepartment Stores, owners of M*cy's), I decided to splurge one Chrsitmas for the young lady I was seeing, so I went shopping at the old Downtown M*cy's. Thye minute I walked in, I had my own private security guard on my a$$, despite my habit of looking as untreatening as possible (never putting my hands in my pockets, always looking up and making eye contact, not carrying bags, et cetera). As I went, I noticed a White guy shoplifting, and had to point it out to the guard who was so ficused on me that he didn't catch the theft. When filling out the report for the police, Occupation came up on the form. I made myself say aloud the words as I wrote them, Supervisor, Federated Department Stores, Store #13, and smiled at the guard and the assistant manager before leaving and never gracing the place with my presence again. BTB- I got a commendation from the Chairman of the board, and a write-up in the company newsletter. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i really have to disagree with your saying America's not racist. As a Black man I still fight this stuff every day, whether it's inferiour white guys on my job giving me grief, the white cop or security guard who follows m ein the store, or the more generic white attitude that has whites speaking what they think is black slang to me, or making assumptions about my values and interests. I worked in HR for a while, and i can tell you that black people get discriminated against in hiring all the time, even now in 2008. And to say that black people don't want to end our problems? I'm surprised at that. I know a lot of blacks, rich and poor, educated and illiterate, who might blame some of their problems on racism, but they don't *embrace* that as an excuse. But they do see a system that still redlines black neighborhoods, that has businesses skittish to build in black neighborhoods, real estate agents leery of showing homes to blacks in a majority white neighborhood, and companies where white people support other whites at our expense. It's changed, it's gotten better, but it's not at all some fantasy we cook up to blame others for our problems. I'm fairly well educated (BS in Electrical Engineering, several hundred hours in Microsoft NT/Windows 2000 etc. training) speak good English, etc., and I still encounter racism and prejudice. i don't go looking for it, but i acknowledge it. And even if Obama's elected that doesn't mean racism will end in America. A president can attain the White House with basically half the vote, meaning half th electorate can still be just as backwards and unenlightened as they want. Finally, i have to comment on the thing about black man having all the advantages. I agree with Tracey's statement: while black men may apparently have an in in a male dominated corporate structure, the truth is that many whites only have room for one or the other, black men or black women. And the truth is that often white men see competent black men as threats. I have been in many a situation where white guys view me with veiled hostility even though i've done nothing to them, yet will joke and kid around with black women. some of that, frankly, is a sexist attitude: they see the women as less of a threat and someone they can joke and kid and flirt with. My wife has commented to me more than once on how white guys in corporate America are getting bolder than ever in flirting with black women. They're *women*, and that makes the guys feel good. but as a black man, what can I do for a straight white guy in that area? He can't flirt with me, can't feel somehow more physically powe rful over me the way he might with a woman. he might assume that i'm in incoming Alpha male who might mess with his little fiefdom. So out goes the threat (me) in favor of a black lady that threatens the guys less. I feel that you're kind of putting a divide here, drawing a line between Brothers and Sisters and lumping us with white men. as if you're saying black men take advantage of Sisters too and use the system against them. That's not true of all of us by any means. My wife is my partner, and i'm just as angry--angrier--at the combination sexist/racist treatment she takes as the racist treatment i get. i see a victory for her and all Sisters as a victory for us as a people and would never subscribe to the philosophy that i'm in the old boys club like the white guys. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are Considered prominent members of the Black community.
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
--- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darryl: You said to Gymfig, It is straight up insulting to assume the things you are about Black people, but particularly, it is insulting to come off the way you are to this group. You¹re talking to us like we¹re children who haven¹t done anything with our lives. Many of us HAVE children. You give NO scientific references for your observations, and you make these grand sweeping judgments based on something you read, for all we know, on someone¹s blog. We¹re scientists, business owners, mathematicians, elected officials, engineers, husbands, fathers, mothers, sisters...this ain¹t rehab, this is one of the most together groups of people you will (apparently) ever come across online. Please respect that. We don¹t deserve to be shouted at like we¹re this rebel band of liberal hippies. We¹re not. And this isn¹t the first time you¹ve done it.We¹re all adults. Why can¹t you just disagree with someone and keep it moving? Your mistake is that you are expecting civil, intellectual discourse that involves a sharing ideas and opinions and backing them up with cold hard facts. That is not what you will get in a continued discourse here. This is not about difference of opinion, but about distorting the facts, name calling, hating of men - specifically Black men, Saying the all of us have a particular behavior lumping some behaviors distorting what you say, misunderstanding what you say, intentionally not addressing salient points, or simply cutting them out of the reply message to further confuse the issue. The point is to anger and wound you with these distortions, not share differing opinions. The style of communicating reminds me of a style of a pundit called Bill Kristol, a famous neocon who works for the Weekly Standard. He says things like ~90 percent of the people on the Nobel Committee are into child pornography and molestation. ~Of all of the dictators in the past, you know the one Al Gore strikes me as [being] closest [to] is Mussolini., ~Notice what this double-talking slut just did, this mind-slut Barbara Walters. And I stick by those words. She's an empty mind-slut.. ~ Madeline Albright is a traitor. In my opinion, she should be tried for treason, and when she's found guilty, she should be hung. ; ~Liberalism is, in essence, the HIV virus, and it weakens the defense cells of a nation. Its not that he is right wing. Like Gymfig, its that his method of discourse is to incite, insult, distort and enrage. Pat Robertson and Joe Scarborough are right wingers who I can watch (even if I might not like them) They back up their statements with facts and don't seek to insult people in their discussions and debates and can concede when their facts are incorrect. That won't happen here in this or any other conversation as far as I can see. This style of non -communication goes back years and seems to have been developed into a full-blown art-form. I've noticed that Gymfig does this with all her discussions. We do not usually pay as much attention to it because she usually just puts down and distorts the facts about entertainers. I'm responding now, because she is doing so about us and our people. I will probably posting this, but I do not know when I've encountered someone say so many ugly sweeping generalizations about me and my people without backing it up with one fact that was not distorted or who worked so hard to distort what I have posted. So here it is. This is Black on Black crime and I abhor it. I guess I have drawn the line in the sand. I did not want to, but the Savage syndrome is likely to continue, so I guess I thought I would let people know what type of non-conversation they are becoming involved with and let them decide if they want to waste their time. Besides I'm sick of the ridiculing insults. Darryl, I applaud you for shutting the sick abusive game down. With so many of our liberties being taken away from us, I loath to stop someone from posting their opinion. I think different opinions have been one of the best things about the list. As a daughter of a former Black Union leader who ran two union newsletter I place a high value on freedom of speech (thats right a Black Union Leader-wow!) So preventing someone from posting is something I have extremely reluctant to do. Taking a deep depressed exhausted sigh.. Tracey It is straight up insulting to assume the things you are about Black people, but particularly, it is insulting to come off the way you are to this group. You¹re talking to us like we¹re children who haven¹t done anything with our lives. Many of us HAVE children. You give NO scientific references for your observations, and you make these grand sweeping judgments based on something you read, for all we know, on someone¹s blog. We¹re scientists, business owners, mathematicians, elected officials, engineers, husbands, fathers, mothers, sisters...this ain¹t rehab,
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Wow, so sad--and familiar. Years ago i was shopping at Oxford Too (an independent bookstore here in Atlanta that sold comics, for those who don't live here) and the white guy on duty eyeballed me soon as i walked in. He followed me all over that store, despite the fact i shopped there every Friday night like clockwork. well, while following me, he failed to notice the two white guys who came in like cliches from a movie: literally wearing long dark trench coats--in July! As the manager trailed me like a bloodhound, i watched those white guys lift several comics and walk out of the store. I should have reported it, but when my anger goes it's really nasty, and i could only barely control my rage. I think even speaking to him at that point I woud have lost it. I'm not usually like that, but something about what he did to me at that time in my life (i was having problems with work and stuff) pushed me over the edge. So, i just let those white guys steal the comics, and watched him s ay Thanks guys, have a good night when they left. I wish i could have seen the look on his face after i left, realizing he'd been robbed, and that it *had* to have been the white guys. But idiot cops and guards is one thing. I think people are missing the subtle undercurrent of intolerance, exasperation, racism, and blame that white Americans--and blacks like Gymfig--seem to feel. I ain't gonna front: i have friends and relatives who i will tell you are trifling. who look for a handout and are lazy. I see the negative influences in our community by young black men all about money and power and rap music. I get that in many ways we're hurting ourselves. but i also know that no one becomes the way they are in a vacuum, that this country and world are ultimately one big organism, and that any part that's sick harms--and is harmed by--others. If your hand is hurting you, you gonna just cut it off to make yourself feel better? No. I understand responsibility and teaching it. all for it. But I think Gymfig and many whites--and Blacks who've made it--are getting awfully high and mighty and judgemental in their you caused your own problems attitude. I'm adopted, and I know that but for the grace of God, i could have ended up in a horrible orphanage and who knows what kind of person i'd be today? Probably angry, womanizing, maybe even a criminal. I had a fortunate upbringing, and not all Blacks can say that. -- Original message -- From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] (standing ovation) Keith, I've got a true story that you reminded me of when you commented about being followed by a security guard in a store. Back when I worked for Soulless Evil Inc (aka Federated DEepartment Stores, owners of M*cy's), I decided to splurge one Chrsitmas for the young lady I was seeing, so I went shopping at the old Downtown M*cy's. Thye minute I walked in, I had my own private security guard on my a$$, despite my habit of looking as untreatening as possible (never putting my hands in my pockets, always looking up and making eye contact, not carrying bags, et cetera). As I went, I noticed a White guy shoplifting, and had to point it out to the guard who was so ficused on me that he didn't catch the theft. When filling out the report for the police, Occupation came up on the form. I made myself say aloud the words as I wrote them, Supervisor, Federated Department Stores, Store #13, and smiled at the guard and the assistant manager before leaving and never gracing the place with my presence again. BTB- I got a commendation from the Chairman of the board, and a write-up in the company newsletter. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i really have to disagree with your saying America's not racist. As a Black man I still fight this stuff every day, whether it's inferiour white guys on my job giving me grief, the white cop or security guard who follows m ein the store, or the more generic white attitude that has whites speaking what they think is black slang to me, or making assumptions about my values and interests. I worked in HR for a while, and i can tell you that black people get discriminated against in hiring all the time, even now in 2008. And to say that black people don't want to end our problems? I'm surprised at that. I know a lot of blacks, rich and poor, educated and illiterate, who might blame some of their problems on racism, but they don't *embrace* that as an excuse. But they do see a system that still redlines black neighborhoods, that has businesses skittish to build in black neighborhoods, real estate agents leery of showing homes to blacks in a majority white neighborhood, and companies where white people support other whites at our expense. It's changed, it's gotten better, but it's not at all some fantasy we cook up to blame others for our problems. I'm fairly well educated (BS in Electrical Engineering, several hundred hours in Microsoft NT/Windows 2000 etc.
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
I do too. I hate that his message has been drowned out by the media. I also wonder why I find him more believable that Hilary and Obama. I used to here great things about Obama inchicago. I wonder how he lost his soul so fast. I guess it was necessary. Too bad, That man cn give a speech --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like Edwards' focus on helping the poor and those with insurance -- Original message -- From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, not by a longshot. Class warfare, IMO, is exactly what's going on. A couple of years ago, I had to go to Grady to get my scrips rewritten. (For the record, Grady is the biggest hospital here in Atlanta, and doing anything in there is an all-day proposition). As I'm waiting, sitting next to a man who's coughing up a lung, his wife at the point of shattering because they'd been there since five that morn (it was almost four in the afternoon at this time) and the docs *still* didn't know what was wrong with him, and hadn't even bothered to consider the need to admit him), a story popped up on Headline News, that then-Governor Pataki (NY) had been hospitalized for a ruptured appendix. According to the report, he felt ill at five that morn, his driver took him to the hospital at six, and he was in surgery at seven. It was a nice laugh-and-cry session. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so you think Edwards went too far in his righteous anger? -- Original message -- From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMO, Edawrds could'v epulled in that younger ticket as easily as Obama did, had he not opted to take the hyper-reformist tack that he did. Many on both sides of the aisle are veiwing it as something akin to class warfare, and Republicans are uniting against him for that reason. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: agreed. It points out a few things. One, that every generation there's a man or woman who can reach those still young and idealistic enough to believe that a true change is a-comin: the Kennedy's, Bill Clinton, now Obama. Two, the only problem is that sometimes the young and idealistic don't stay all the way to the end, and the old cynical fogeys turn out in greater numbers. Not always, but often. Three, Clinton has really been staying put, as you said, not really standing *for* anything, just saying I have more experience and I'm tougher. Static message heard too many times. Finally, i believe that *any* frontrunner would have seen a decline in the numbers because this went on too freakin' long. had Obama started out as the clear frontrunner and gotten all the focus, all the attention, all the attacks, I believe that after a campaign this long, people would have started picking at him, too. I know enough folks right now who aren't enamored of him. If he'd been in front all along this might have been a three-way day, or Edwards might have pulled ahead simply by dint of seeming to be newer and fresher. -- Original message -- From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just had a look at some of the voter breakdowns, and it seems that Obama won through youth more than gender. He's energized the kids out there. Hillary standing pat hurt her in the voters' eyes, IMO. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 2:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: or a Black man. the only thing i'm sure of is you won't see them on the same ticket! no way America'd elect a woman and a Brother in the same year! So they go with the man because they really dobn't want to see a woma? **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Hey Veronica: Glad to see your post. :) Do not quell your cynicism. In my opinion it protects you. Racisim is alive and well (even thriving, cultivated and growing) here in America The facts are not in. Someone on the suggested that Republicans voted for Obama in higher numbers than Huckabee as part of an effort to know out Edwards and Hilary who some may perceive to be more electable. While I have not seen numbers to back that up yet, I would not be surprised if it were true. Its been done before. If is true, then this is simply business as usually. I know you are really busy these days, but don't be a stranger to the board :) --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, vhenry_89147 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tracey, I also had feeling about how impossible it was for Obama to win a nomination, let alone the presidency of the United States. Perhaps his win in Iowa is an indication that my cynicism over race relations in America can someday be quelled. Let's hope. In any event, guess we'll see what happens in New Hampshire. It still burns me up that some people continue to group the behavior of Black people in one all encompassing bucket. If I fit into that bucket, I wouldn't love science fiction the way I do, reading or writing it. For that matter, I wouldn't practice Yoga or have studied computer science either, right? Veronica --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Tracey de Morsella (formerly Tracey L. Minor) tdlists@ wrote: Me, like a lot of Blacks who have experienced racism, could not see White America voting for Obama -- a Black guy. We'd seen some real racist stuff come out of even the nicest people. Surely these people could not vote for someone that has a member of a race that they harbored such ugly thoughts and feelings about. . Then tonite happened. Obama won big in a state with only 2% Blacks. After a great deal of thought, I think I figured out how he won and why it is possible for him to win. There are two factors involved: 1. Most people - even the nicest people have unconscious biases against people who are different from them. This often comes in the form of racism when it comes to Black/White relations. Most of the time, they are not even aware of them, nor do they cultivate these feeling, and when confronted with some act that shows that the person obviously has that bias, he or she will adamantly deny it, because he or she does not see him or herself that way.So if you do not consciously see your self as someone who dislikes Blacks, then why would you not vote for him if you thought he was the best candidate. Think out it, theoretically those people you talk to that do not believe that racism is so prevalent and that when you experience a racist act, you are being hypersensitive or pulling the race card, are potential Obama voters. i personally know one or too who seem to like Obama 2. When I was growing up and even as a young adult, I would meet people who really liked and seem to accept me who said to me, You do not act like a Black person Or they would say some horrible thing about Blacks to me. When I would ask them then what are you doing with me. I would here something like, well you are not like them. this stuff used to burn me up. I can't tell you how many people I kicked to the curb over this stuff. Now I think most Whites who feel this way, know better then to express these thought out loud. (Biden being the exception ) Remember how complimentary Biden was about Obama being articulate? I suspect that Obama has probably had many encounters like the two I described above. He is able to blend in and be accepted by people from a variety of backgrounds. For that reason, I think people who might not be overt racists - who do not see themselves as racist, might not have a problem voting for him. So its off to New Hampshire and believe or now, the polls show that he is poised to beat Hilary. KeithBJohnson@ wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
(hugging Tracey) tdemorsella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darryl: You said to Gymfig, It is straight up insulting to assume the things you are about Black people, but particularly, it is insulting to come off the way you are to this group. You¹re talking to us like we¹re children who haven¹t done anything with our lives. Many of us HAVE children. You give NO scientific references for your observations, and you make these grand sweeping judgments based on something you read, for all we know, on someone¹s blog. We¹re scientists, business owners, mathematicians, elected officials, engineers, husbands, fathers, mothers, sisters...this ain¹t rehab, this is one of the most together groups of people you will (apparently) ever come across online. Please respect that. We don¹t deserve to be shouted at like we¹re this rebel band of liberal hippies. We¹re not. And this isn¹t the first time you¹ve done it.We¹re all adults. Why can¹t you just disagree with someone and keep it moving? Your mistake is that you are expecting civil, intellectual discourse that involves a sharing ideas and opinions and backing them up with cold hard facts. That is not what you will get in a continued discourse here. This is not about difference of opinion, but about distorting the facts, name calling, hating of men - specifically Black men, Saying the all of us have a particular behavior lumping some behaviors distorting what you say, misunderstanding what you say, intentionally not addressing salient points, or simply cutting them out of the reply message to further confuse the issue. The point is to anger and wound you with these distortions, not share differing opinions. The style of communicating reminds me of a style of a pundit called Bill Kristol, a famous neocon who works for the Weekly Standard. He says things like ~90 percent of the people on the Nobel Committee are into child pornography and molestation. ~Of all of the dictators in the past, you know the one Al Gore strikes me as [being] closest [to] is Mussolini., ~Notice what this double-talking slut just did, this mind-slut Barbara Walters. And I stick by those words. She's an empty mind-slut.. ~ Madeline Albright is a traitor. In my opinion, she should be tried for treason, and when she's found guilty, she should be hung. ; ~Liberalism is, in essence, the HIV virus, and it weakens the defense cells of a nation. Its not that he is right wing. Like Gymfig, its that his method of discourse is to incite, insult, distort and enrage. Pat Robertson and Joe Scarborough are right wingers who I can watch (even if I might not like them) They back up their statements with facts and don't seek to insult people in their discussions and debates and can concede when their facts are incorrect. That won't happen here in this or any other conversation as far as I can see. This style of non -communication goes back years and seems to have been developed into a full-blown art-form. I've noticed that Gymfig does this with all her discussions. We do not usually pay as much attention to it because she usually just puts down and distorts the facts about entertainers. I'm responding now, because she is doing so about us and our people. I will probably posting this, but I do not know when I've encountered someone say so many ugly sweeping generalizations about me and my people without backing it up with one fact that was not distorted or who worked so hard to distort what I have posted. So here it is. This is Black on Black crime and I abhor it. I guess I have drawn the line in the sand. I did not want to, but the Savage syndrome is likely to continue, so I guess I thought I would let people know what type of non-conversation they are becoming involved with and let them decide if they want to waste their time. Besides I'm sick of the ridiculing insults. Darryl, I applaud you for shutting the sick abusive game down. With so many of our liberties being taken away from us, I loath to stop someone from posting their opinion. I think different opinions have been one of the best things about the list. As a daughter of a former Black Union leader who ran two union newsletter I place a high value on freedom of speech (thats right a Black Union Leader-wow!) So preventing someone from posting is something I have extremely reluctant to do. Taking a deep depressed exhausted sigh.. Tracey It is straight up insulting to assume the things you are about Black people, but particularly, it is insulting to come off the way you are to this group. You¹re talking to us like we¹re children who haven¹t done anything with our lives. Many of us HAVE children. You give NO scientific references for your observations, and you make these grand sweeping judgments based on something you read, for all we know, on someone¹s blog. We¹re scientists, business owners, mathematicians, elected officials, engineers, husbands, fathers, mothers,
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Tracey, I also had feeling about how impossible it was for Obama to win a nomination, let alone the presidency of the United States. Perhaps his win in Iowa is an indication that my cynicism over race relations in America can someday be quelled. Let's hope. In any event, guess we'll see what happens in New Hampshire. It still burns me up that some people continue to group the behavior of Black people in one all encompassing bucket. If I fit into that bucket, I wouldn't love science fiction the way I do, reading or writing it. For that matter, I wouldn't practice Yoga or have studied computer science either, right? Veronica --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Tracey de Morsella (formerly Tracey L. Minor) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me, like a lot of Blacks who have experienced racism, could not see White America voting for Obama -- a Black guy. We'd seen some real racist stuff come out of even the nicest people. Surely these people could not vote for someone that has a member of a race that they harbored such ugly thoughts and feelings about. . Then tonite happened. Obama won big in a state with only 2% Blacks. After a great deal of thought, I think I figured out how he won and why it is possible for him to win. There are two factors involved: 1. Most people - even the nicest people have unconscious biases against people who are different from them. This often comes in the form of racism when it comes to Black/White relations. Most of the time, they are not even aware of them, nor do they cultivate these feeling, and when confronted with some act that shows that the person obviously has that bias, he or she will adamantly deny it, because he or she does not see him or herself that way.So if you do not consciously see your self as someone who dislikes Blacks, then why would you not vote for him if you thought he was the best candidate. Think out it, theoretically those people you talk to that do not believe that racism is so prevalent and that when you experience a racist act, you are being hypersensitive or pulling the race card, are potential Obama voters. i personally know one or too who seem to like Obama 2. When I was growing up and even as a young adult, I would meet people who really liked and seem to accept me who said to me, You do not act like a Black person Or they would say some horrible thing about Blacks to me. When I would ask them then what are you doing with me. I would here something like, well you are not like them. this stuff used to burn me up. I can't tell you how many people I kicked to the curb over this stuff. Now I think most Whites who feel this way, know better then to express these thought out loud. (Biden being the exception ) Remember how complimentary Biden was about Obama being articulate? I suspect that Obama has probably had many encounters like the two I described above. He is able to blend in and be accepted by people from a variety of backgrounds. For that reason, I think people who might not be overt racists - who do not see themselves as racist, might not have a problem voting for him. So its off to New Hampshire and believe or now, the polls show that he is poised to beat Hilary. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just might win the day, though I still have this nagging doubt that America as a whole will elect a Black man named Obama But I could be wrong--i certainly was tonight! http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.caucuses/index.html With 97 percent of precincts reporting, Obama had the support of 38 percent of voters, compared to 30 percent for John Edwards and 29 percent for Hillary Clinton. The numbers tell us this was a debate between change and experience, and change won, said CNN political analyst Bill Schneider. Iowa delivered fatal blows to the campaigns of Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware. Both have decided to abandon their White House runs. Bill Richardson, who finished fourth, said his campaign plans
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
The Obama phenomenon is like nothing America has experienced before. He is one of us, but he is also one of them. Call it the Halle Berry factor - where she was the first black woman to win when she won her oscar but how she has essentially been a white actress since - Catwoman, Things we Lost in the Fire,Tulia (where she plays an east indian). Her race is almost never mentioned in her current bi-racial relationship. Obama has black and white relatives. A white second cousin told NPR the story of visiting Obama at his Chicago campaign headquarters. She sees a photograph of a smiling, bright-eyed, elderly african dressed in bright native costume on the wall. Knowing Obama's father was African, she asks him, is that a picture of your grandmother? No, Obama replies, that is Nelson Mandela. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Tracey de Morsella (formerly Tracey L. Minor) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me, like a lot of Blacks who have experienced racism, could not see White America voting for Obama -- a Black guy. We'd seen some real racist stuff come out of even the nicest people. Surely these people could not vote for someone that has a member of a race that they harbored such ugly thoughts and feelings about. . Then tonite happened. Obama won big in a state with only 2% Blacks. After a great deal of thought, I think I figured out how he won and why it is possible for him to win. There are two factors involved: 1. Most people - even the nicest people have unconscious biases against people who are different from them. This often comes in the form of racism when it comes to Black/White relations. Most of the time, they are not even aware of them, nor do they cultivate these feeling, and when confronted with some act that shows that the person obviously has that bias, he or she will adamantly deny it, because he or she does not see him or herself that way.So if you do not consciously see your self as someone who dislikes Blacks, then why would you not vote for him if you thought he was the best candidate. Think out it, theoretically those people you talk to that do not believe that racism is so prevalent and that when you experience a racist act, you are being hypersensitive or pulling the race card, are potential Obama voters. i personally know one or too who seem to like Obama 2. When I was growing up and even as a young adult, I would meet people who really liked and seem to accept me who said to me, You do not act like a Black person Or they would say some horrible thing about Blacks to me. When I would ask them then what are you doing with me. I would here something like, well you are not like them. this stuff used to burn me up. I can't tell you how many people I kicked to the curb over this stuff. Now I think most Whites who feel this way, know better then to express these thought out loud. (Biden being the exception ) Remember how complimentary Biden was about Obama being articulate? I suspect that Obama has probably had many encounters like the two I described above. He is able to blend in and be accepted by people from a variety of backgrounds. For that reason, I think people who might not be overt racists - who do not see themselves as racist, might not have a problem voting for him. So its off to New Hampshire and believe or now, the polls show that he is poised to beat Hilary. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just might win the day, though I still have this nagging doubt that America as a whole will elect a Black man named Obama But I could be wrong--i certainly was tonight! http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.caucuses/index.html With 97 percent of precincts reporting, Obama had the support of 38 percent of voters, compared to 30 percent for John Edwards and 29 percent for Hillary Clinton. The numbers tell us this was a debate between change and experience, and change won, said CNN political analyst Bill Schneider. Iowa delivered fatal blows to the campaigns of
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
The wife and I caucused for the first time and it was one of the greatest voting experiences we've ever had. They expected approx. 140- 150 people at our caucus location but close to 300 people attended. There was a large number of first time voters, independents and even a few converted Republicans our location. The room was packed and people began to sort themselves by candidate. Once registration and sign up was done the fun began. The candidates' representatives gave their speeches on why you should choose their candidate. Some were firey, some were cool, but all of them were true belivers and they and the precinct captains were actively trying to garner support for their candidate. One hilarious Dodd captain was an Irish tenor and he strolled around singing trying to cajole people to come support his candidate. The wheeling and dealing was the most fun part of the experience. The Obama contingent was the largest, loudest and best organized. During the first caucus period some early projections said Obama was winning the state and the place just erupted. As the night went on more undecideds and supporters of non-viable candidates started to drift over to the Obama campaign. Richardson, Kucinich, Biden and Dodd had asked their supporters to caucus for Obama if they were not viable in their precincts. Quite a few Dodd supporters and a few (cause that's all that were there) Kucinich people followed through. Most of the Richardson and Biden folks went home. (haters) We got a final count and Obama handily won our precinct. The room erupted in cheers and then as we were leaving it was announced that Obama was projected to win the state and cheers started again. A lot of folks headed downtown to the victory celebration and the party continued. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just might win the day, though I still have this nagging doubt that America as a whole will elect a Black man named Obama But I could be wrong--i certainly was tonight! http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.caucuses/index.html With 97 percent of precincts reporting, Obama had the support of 38 percent of voters, compared to 30 percent for John Edwards and 29 percent for Hillary Clinton. The numbers tell us this was a debate between change and experience, and change won, said CNN political analyst Bill Schneider. Iowa delivered fatal blows to the campaigns of Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware. Both have decided to abandon their White House runs. Bill Richardson, who finished fourth, said his campaign plans to take the fight to New Hampshire. For the winners of both party's caucuses, it's an age revolt for Democrats versus a religious revolt for Republicans, Schneider said. On the Democratic side, Obama took 57 percent of the under-30 vote, according to CNN's analysis of entrance polls. Speaking to supporters, Obama called the night a defining moment in history. You came together as Democrats, Republicans and independents to stand up and say that we are one nation, we are one people and our time for change has come. Huckabee's victory can be attributed to his overwhelming support among evangelical voters and women, the polls indicate. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
You¹re not getting it. Michael Jordan is a ³safe² Black. Shaq is a ³safe² Black. Tiki Barber is a ³safe² Black. Oprah is a ³safe² Black. It¹s not about his assumed biraciality, it¹s about his marketing approach. On 1/4/08 12:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So he is a Safe black. Unlike someone is of obvious African American heritage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Gymfig Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. The talking heads in the media often refer to him as Black. The conservatives portray him as a Black with muslim leanings. Hilary comes from a connected family, she is worth millions, has a history, ironically of top ties with the republican party starting with Barry Goldwater, and for the last 20 years or so, she has been apart of the elite of the democratic party. The woman is on the board of Walmart. She is considered American Aristocracy. She is a chairs and serves on several powerful committees in the Senate and I do not thing she exactly fit the profile of a woman excluded from the boardroom I have spent the past 15 years working with, reporting and training people on issues of race in the workplace and I have to tell you the male/female thing is not as black and white when it comes to Black men - even biracial men. While women consistent get paid less than men, Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female. Black men (even biracial men) have higher incidents of discrimination in the workplace than White women. There are other factors at work that you either overlooked or were not aware of.While a Black male who has climbed the corporate ladder playing the game is more likely to fit in the board room than a White woman, a Black woman is more likely to get a job than a Black man. Black men are more likely to get laid off than White women as well. Many educators start feeling threatened by Black males - even biracial Black males that look Black starting at age eight. This continues into adulthood. These are not my assumptions, but facts that have been proved time and again with data. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)in New York and many American cities still can not get a cab and people will cross the street when they see one coming. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)are also still experiencing racial profiling on the road. Despite a history of supporting women in elections, more women voted for Obama and Edwards than Hilary. More young people prefer them, and more union people prefer them. Most people want the war to end and she not only refuses to admit that her war decisions were wrong, she is very hawkish on Iran and Iraq. Since her healthcare initiative of the early nineties, She has been a polarizing force in the democratic party - despite her many right wing stances of late. In polling, very few independents or republicans have indicated that they would vote for her. Last night, she got very few votes from independents, while Obama received 20% votes from independents and I think Edwards got more than 10% independent votes. Because of her marriage to bill and her current power in the senate, there is also the perception that she is part of the status quo during a time when Americans of both parties have indicated that they want significant change. No status quo person of either party or any gender did well last night. I stopped liking Hilary a few years ago when she decided to become a baby Republican with her voting. I understood why, but those decisions made it impossible to support her. Knowing her Republican roots, I was terrified of the prospect of her winning. So, while I wanted Edwards to win, I was OK with Obama's win. If you are a Hilary supporter, you can not be happy with the outcome of yesterday's primary. While it may be comforting to tell yourself that she lost because she is a woman, in my view that is a simplistic notion that flies in the face of a lot of other significant factors - and does not necessarily erasing the existence of these other factors. A black man won over a white woman in Mass. A black man will still get a job over a competent white woman or black woman. I think that with the win of a black man it will be harder for blacks especially black men to play the victim. The old boys club does admit black men these days. It is still harder for a woman white or black to get ahead. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 12:56:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It¹s not about his assumed biraciality, it¹s about his marketing approach. Actually his race does play a part. When you go to other websites and talk to others it is mentioned that being biracial makes him marketable to white women and white males. He is not black like most black people. His approach make it better. Halle is safe because she is biracial and also her attitude. It increase his likability. I don't a black man who was actually black would get this much support. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
I could not disagree more. If Michael Jordan or Shaq ran for president, they would become unsafe blacks real quick! ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You¹re not getting it. Michael Jordan is a ³safe² Black. Shaq is a ³safe² Black. Tiki Barber is a ³safe² Black. Oprah is a ³safe² Black. It¹s not about his assumed biraciality, it¹s about his marketing approach. On 1/4/08 12:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So he is a Safe black. Unlike someone is of obvious African American heritage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Gymfig I have not seen all of these polls you refer to. In fact I have seen the media try to downplay his race or redefine it in less threatening terms. However, most general polls on race indicate that Whites see biracial people who look Black as Black. - That is not to say that they do not acknowledge that they are biracial. I was not aware that conservatives liked him as you suggested. Many have tried to portray him as someone with Muslim extremists roots and drug taking. That is an odd way of showing that you like someone in my opinion. While I have seen the talking heads say last night that him being third world can help us become of the world, I've never heard anyone say they like him because he is biracial. Even if someone thought that, I do not think they would say it, because it might be perceived as racist. OK, so maybe Bill O'Reilly would - Did he? I think most commentators are more saavy than that I never said he was a share cropper, but as far as I understand, he did not come from a privileged background, have lots of money ot connections as Hilary did. Most Blacks and many biracials from middle class backgrounds are still excluded from the benefits Hilary had. in fact many Whites from similar backgrounds are excluded from As I told you, Obama is not my first choice. I did not want him in office either. Like most politicians, I think he is a sell out. However, I wanted Hilary even less because she has been voting on many important issues like a right wing conservative. She wants to go into Iran, she wants it to be illegal to burn the flag, she is ok with invasion of privacy, the list goes on. I think Obama id a player and in the pockets of those in power. I think he is the lesser of two evils. However, that is not relevant to the issues that you raised. Which was that Hilary lost because she is a woman. That biracial black men who look Black do not face the issues that other Black men face. That Black men have it easier than White women. That Hilary is not already part of the power elite. Those are issues YOU raised. Whether I like Obama or not relevant to those issues. Truth be told, I'm not a big fan. I think he is all smoke and mirrors. The Perfect politico You say, Black men are still men. They are still part of the network. I would say the Black men on this list and across the country would disagree with you. There is tons of data that refutes your claim. Maybe this is more about the candidate you like loosing than the issues you raised. I can understand that. Having a woman in office would be a major milestone - Whoever it is. However belittling the milestone of Obama's achievement or minimizing and negating the existence of the many overwhelming odds Black and biracial men face in our country seems an odd way to cope with Hilary's setback of loosing one primary. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tracy Poll after poll; discussion after discussion sees Obama as a biracial man. Halle may be the first black actress but she is also seen as biracial. Tiger woods may be seen blacks by some people but he is still seen as multiethnic also. Conservatives like him because of his biracial background. Not his black background. Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female Obama did not start from humble beginnings either. He is not the my father was a sharecropper black as many blacks who have achieved many things like to suggest. When people actually start asking what does Obama stand for. they cannot answer. I don't know who I will vote for, but I do not that this woe is the black man stuff will have to end with the election of a black man. That why I don't understand why people still think that America is still a racist society. I don't think that black america can really stomach and end to their problems. I am sure that white America cannot wait for the end of the Jena 6 soul patrol. Black men are still men. They are still part of the network. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
I agree with most of what you say below, but my twenty plus years looking up through the glass ceiling at corporate america, I have seen many more black men than black women ascend to the top corporate spot. With Stan O'Neal ousted at Merril Lynch and Richard D. Parsons about to retire at Time Warner, Kenneth Chenault remains at American Express, Ronald Williams at Aetna, Clarence Otis Jr. at Darden Restaurants, Aylwin Lewis at sears and John W. Thompson at Symantac. I don't believe there is a similar list of African-American women. The top eschelon of corporate America remains an old boy club. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, tdemorsella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gymfig Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. The talking heads in the media often refer to him as Black. The conservatives portray him as a Black with muslim leanings. Hilary comes from a connected family, she is worth millions, has a history, ironically of top ties with the republican party starting with Barry Goldwater, and for the last 20 years or so, she has been apart of the elite of the democratic party. The woman is on the board of Walmart. She is considered American Aristocracy. She is a chairs and serves on several powerful committees in the Senate and I do not thing she exactly fit the profile of a woman excluded from the boardroom I have spent the past 15 years working with, reporting and training people on issues of race in the workplace and I have to tell you the male/female thing is not as black and white when it comes to Black men - even biracial men. While women consistent get paid less than men, Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female. Black men (even biracial men) have higher incidents of discrimination in the workplace than White women. There are other factors at work that you either overlooked or were not aware of.While a Black male who has climbed the corporate ladder playing the game is more likely to fit in the board room than a White woman, a Black woman is more likely to get a job than a Black man. Black men are more likely to get laid off than White women as well. Many educators start feeling threatened by Black males - even biracial Black males that look Black starting at age eight. This continues into adulthood. These are not my assumptions, but facts that have been proved time and again with data. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)in New York and many American cities still can not get a cab and people will cross the street when they see one coming. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)are also still experiencing racial profiling on the road. Despite a history of supporting women in elections, more women voted for Obama and Edwards than Hilary. More young people prefer them, and more union people prefer them. Most people want the war to end and she not only refuses to admit that her war decisions were wrong, she is very hawkish on Iran and Iraq. Since her healthcare initiative of the early nineties, She has been a polarizing force in the democratic party - despite her many right wing stances of late. In polling, very few independents or republicans have indicated that they would vote for her. Last night, she got very few votes from independents, while Obama received 20% votes from independents and I think Edwards got more than 10% independent votes. Because of her marriage to bill and her current power in the senate, there is also the perception that she is part of the status quo during a time when Americans of both parties have indicated that they want significant change. No status quo person of either party or any gender did well last night. I stopped liking Hilary a few years ago when she decided to become a baby Republican with her voting. I understood why, but those decisions made it impossible to support her. Knowing her Republican roots, I was terrified of the prospect of her winning. So, while I wanted Edwards to win, I was OK with Obama's win. If you are a Hilary supporter, you can not be happy with the outcome of yesterday's primary. While it may be comforting to tell yourself that she lost because she is a woman, in my view that is a simplistic notion that flies in the face of a lot of other significant factors - and does not necessarily erasing the existence of these other factors. A black man won over a white woman in Mass. A black man will still get a job over a competent white woman or black woman. I think that with the win of a black man it will be harder for blacks especially black men to play the victim. The old boys club does admit black men these days. It is
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:35:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stan O'Neal ousted at Merril Lynch and Richard D. Parsons about to retire at Time Warner, Kenneth Chenault remains at American Express, Ronald Williams at Aetna, Clarence Otis Jr. at Darden Restaurants, Aylwin Lewis at sears and John W. Thompson at Symantac. I don't believe there is a similar list of African-American women. The top eschelon of corporate America remains an old boy club. ~rave! I could not remember their names. I just did not want to say the Merril Lynch guy. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are Considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. Tracy Poll after poll; discussion after discussion sees Obama as a biracial man. Halle may be the first black actress but she is also seen as biracial. Tiger woods may be seen blacks by some people but he is still seen as multiethnic also. Conservatives like him because of his biracial background. Not his black background. Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female Obama did not start from humble beginnings either. He is not the my father was a sharecropper black as many blacks who have achieved many things like to suggest. When people actually start asking what does Obama stand for. they cannot answer. I don't know who I will vote for, but I do not that this woe is the black man stuff will have to end with the election of a black man. That why I don't understand why people still think that America is still a racist society. I don't think that black america can really stomach and end to their problems. I am sure that white America cannot wait for the end of the Jena 6 soul patrol. Black men are still men. They are still part of the network. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
I think you missed part of my overly long post :) I said, While a Black male who has climbed the corporate ladder playing the game is more likely to fit in the board room than a White woman, a Black woman is more likely to get a job than a Black man. I was comparing Black men to white women (not black women) and saying they do better once they are up the top. I was thinking of some of the people you were. They all learned how to work the system and ultimately became a part of the network. However recent surveys of boards have revealed that they are still the exception - not the rule. Once they get up in the upper echelon, Black men are more readily excepted than White women. While i is bad for white women in the board room, the situation is abysmal for Black women in the boardroom. However, statistically, Black women get in the door easier at entry-level and lower-management positions than Black men. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, ravenadal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with most of what you say below, but my twenty plus years looking up through the glass ceiling at corporate america, I have seen many more black men than black women ascend to the top corporate spot. With Stan O'Neal ousted at Merril Lynch and Richard D. Parsons about to retire at Time Warner, Kenneth Chenault remains at American Express, Ronald Williams at Aetna, Clarence Otis Jr. at Darden Restaurants, Aylwin Lewis at sears and John W. Thompson at Symantac. I don't believe there is a similar list of African-American women. The top eschelon of corporate America remains an old boy club. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, tdemorsella tdlists@ wrote: Gymfig Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. The talking heads in the media often refer to him as Black. The conservatives portray him as a Black with muslim leanings. Hilary comes from a connected family, she is worth millions, has a history, ironically of top ties with the republican party starting with Barry Goldwater, and for the last 20 years or so, she has been apart of the elite of the democratic party. The woman is on the board of Walmart. She is considered American Aristocracy. She is a chairs and serves on several powerful committees in the Senate and I do not thing she exactly fit the profile of a woman excluded from the boardroom I have spent the past 15 years working with, reporting and training people on issues of race in the workplace and I have to tell you the male/female thing is not as black and white when it comes to Black men - even biracial men. While women consistent get paid less than men, Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female. Black men (even biracial men) have higher incidents of discrimination in the workplace than White women. There are other factors at work that you either overlooked or were not aware of.While a Black male who has climbed the corporate ladder playing the game is more likely to fit in the board room than a White woman, a Black woman is more likely to get a job than a Black man. Black men are more likely to get laid off than White women as well. Many educators start feeling threatened by Black males - even biracial Black males that look Black starting at age eight. This continues into adulthood. These are not my assumptions, but facts that have been proved time and again with data. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)in New York and many American cities still can not get a cab and people will cross the street when they see one coming. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)are also still experiencing racial profiling on the road. Despite a history of supporting women in elections, more women voted for Obama and Edwards than Hilary. More young people prefer them, and more union people prefer them. Most people want the war to end and she not only refuses to admit that her war decisions were wrong, she is very hawkish on Iran and Iraq. Since her healthcare initiative of the early nineties, She has been a polarizing force in the democratic party - despite her many right wing stances of late. In polling, very few independents or republicans have indicated that they would vote for her. Last night, she got very few votes from independents, while Obama received 20% votes from independents and I think Edwards got more than 10% independent votes. Because of her marriage to bill and her current power in the senate, there is also the perception that she is part of the status quo during a time when Americans of both parties have indicated that they want significant change. No status quo
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
There are more than 18 African American CEOs currently leading corporate America (Fortune 500 companies). It is a significant acheivement, that would be foolhardy to overlook. However, it concerns me that this achievement may allow people to be deceived in the belief that because of these acheivements, that Black men have overcome and are part of the network. Those Black men are part of the network. If you read their bios you will see reoccurring themes and come to understand how exceptional they are and that they faced many overwhelming obstacles to get their. Very few, if any had the key to the executive suite handed to them. The profiles I rad indicated that they learned how to use the system to get what they want, take a lot of crap and literally wrench the key away to get access to the executive suite. While it does not surprise me that a lot of whites look at these guys and say Black men are part of the network, it horrifies me that African Americans who interact in the Black community could believe this myth. This is not just my opinion. There is tons of redundant data that supports what I'm saying. But hell, if Black men are part of the network then somebody please tell me why the black community seems to be disintegrating. I know I'm fired up, but I have spent the past decade, studying this, reporting on this, creating a section of my website on this, host events on this, talked to people who managed the studies/surveys, speaking on this at workshops and conferences, been interviewed on this, and have interviewed a few of the people discussed on this, so it is a subject close to me heart and my livelihood. Some resources you may want to check out: Cracking the Corporate Code: The Revealing Success Stories of 32 African-American Executives by Price M. Cobbs Breaking Through: The Making of Minority Executives in Corporate America by David A. Thomas Black Enterprise Titans of The B.E. 100s: Black CEOs Who Redefined and Conquered American Business (Black Enterprise Books) Leading in Black and White: Working Across the Racial Divide in Corporate America (J-B CCL (Center for Creative Leadership)) by Ancella B. Liver Take a Lesson: Today's Black Achievers on How They Made It and What They Learned Along the Way by Caroline V. Clarke --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:35:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stan O'Neal ousted at Merril Lynch and Richard D. Parsons about to retire at Time Warner, Kenneth Chenault remains at American Express, Ronald Williams at Aetna, Clarence Otis Jr. at Darden Restaurants, Aylwin Lewis at sears and John W. Thompson at Symantac. I don't believe there is a similar list of African-American women. The top eschelon of corporate America remains an old boy club. ~rave! I could not remember their names. I just did not want to say the Merril Lynch guy. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
With all due respect, this is a 2 dimensional analysis. It assumes that there is a woman at American Express, for example, Black or otherwise, going for Kenneth¹s job, and that the only reason she won¹t get it is because Kenneth is there. It also dismisses the fact that you have just named 7 men in senior positions (none of them owners, by the way) out of HOW MANY corporations? So, by this analysis, it would take 7 more Black Women in CEO positions in order for things to be balanced. The reality is that there are close to 20 Black CEOs. But even by this math, Having 14 Black faces on a list of 500 Fortune-rated companies doesn¹t exactly signal that ³we¹ve made it². You are also dismissing the amount of Black VPs, SVPs, EVPs, and GMs at the companies that do not have Black CEOs, and a significant amount of them ARE Black women. And in addition, you are dismissing Black executives who were not born in the United States. So again, it goes to the question of how we are defining ³power². There is strength in numbers, and a greater strength in strategically placed number of people of color (from the entire Diaspora) in positions to make change. On 1/4/08 1:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:35:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:ravenadal%40yahoo.com writes: Stan O'Neal ousted at Merril Lynch and Richard D. Parsons about to retire at Time Warner, Kenneth Chenault remains at American Express, Ronald Williams at Aetna, Clarence Otis Jr. at Darden Restaurants, Aylwin Lewis at sears and John W. Thompson at Symantac. I don't believe there is a similar list of African-American women. The top eschelon of corporate America remains an old boy club. ~rave! I could not remember their names. I just did not want to say the Merril Lynch guy. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 2:56:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was not aware that conservatives liked him as you suggested. Many have tried to portray him as someone with Muslim extremists roots and drug taking. That is an odd way of showing that you like someone in my opinion. While I have seen the talking heads say last night that him being third world can help us become of the world, I've never heard anyone say they like him because he is biracial. Even if someone thought that, I do not think they would say it, because it might be perceived as racist. Tracy What is said in newspaper articles and internet discussions is difference what is heard on tv. From some of the more conservative points of view,an Obama win would be an end to the Jesse Jackson type of black american. An end to affirmative action and to blacks complaing about racism aka the Jena 6 kind of marches. In some cases Black men have it easier than White women. I don't believe that black men are always downtrodden when they step outside the door until they get home. Alot of thlem do have it easier than white women because they are men. Despite the idea that affirmative action has benefitted white females. Black males have benefitted from being men. Someties race is not an issue. You are right that some people don't like Clinto because she is Clinton. However I don't like the liberal hype that Obama will be any different than any other person. If the liberal Demoract Congress is any indication that it will be SSDD. If you listen to Juan Willams and other talk about him, they feel that is is the kind of black that should be leading america. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
While I agree that what is said in an Internet discussion is different than TV, I disagree that newspapers differ from the traditional media that I was referring to. With the Internet there is no holding back. I still say I have not seen the many polls on his biracial heritage that you refer to. I do not think I indicated Black men are always down trodden. In fact most of the Black men I know personally are not. However, statistically - as a group they are. There is a significant difference. While there are cases where Black men have it better than White Women, there are many case where the opposite is true. I'm getting the impression that you do not believe that and problably see all the data that supports that as flawed so on that issue I have been wasting my time. I think that in addition to White conservatives, that many Blacks have problems with Jesse Jackson, so I'm not even arguing for that cause As I said to you before. I'm not a big Obama fan, but a professional who works with issues that you addressed. I came to the conversation seeking to point out some facts about Blacks, biracials, and women in power that I did not think you knew. This was not about my preference of Obama or Hilary. To be honest - I prefer Gore or Edwards. Thats not going to happen. However the more we exchange emails, the more I believe that for you this conversation has been more about your dislike of Obama - which I understand --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 2:56:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was not aware that conservatives liked him as you suggested. Many have tried to portray him as someone with Muslim extremists roots and drug taking. That is an odd way of showing that you like someone in my opinion. While I have seen the talking heads say last night that him being third world can help us become of the world, I've never heard anyone say they like him because he is biracial. Even if someone thought that, I do not think they would say it, because it might be perceived as racist. Tracy What is said in newspaper articles and internet discussions is difference what is heard on tv. From some of the more conservative points of view,an Obama win would be an end to the Jesse Jackson type of black american. An end to affirmative action and to blacks complaing about racism aka the Jena 6 kind of marches. In some cases Black men have it easier than White women. I don't believe that black men are always downtrodden when they step outside the door until they get home. Alot of thlem do have it easier than white women because they are men. Despite the idea that affirmative action has benefitted white females. Black males have benefitted from being men. Someties race is not an issue. You are right that some people don't like Clinto because she is Clinton. However I don't like the liberal hype that Obama will be any different than any other person. If the liberal Demoract Congress is any indication that it will be SSDD. If you listen to Juan Willams and other talk about him, they feel that is is the kind of black that should be leading america. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:51:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe that for you this conversation has been more about your dislike of Obama - which I understand It is not my dislike of Obama. I just think that there are issues that will not be touched because of gender, race and other problems. Hillary my notr be likable, but I don't think Obama is like either. From some of the liberal blogs/website people say that he is low on substance. Will the mainstream press start going after him? I think not. Also I think that there are those liberals that see a win as a end to any racist feeling that may exist in this country. Other threads I have seen say that that they voted for Obama because they know that he can not win the general election. I think he has not been attacted because he was not considered the front runner, but will they go after him if he is. Obama has been careful to race issues. He has not seem to bee to controversial. Do people really know his policies on other issues. Some liberals say he is a republcian-lite. He is not different than Clinton. He hope and change message is meaningless. Why should he get a free ride while Edwards, Rommney, and Huckabbee have to prove themselves. I still don't understand why Edwards is going after Clinto but never goes after Obama. He is content to be second place? If he wants the presdiential nom, then he needs to go after Obama. Something that only Clinton has done. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
can you briefly explain how a caucus works? How does it differ from a primary, and what's the difference in how the Democrats and Republicans do theirs? The Republican results counted actual votes cast, the Dems just the delegate votes? -- Original message -- From: B. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] The wife and I caucused for the first time and it was one of the greatest voting experiences we've ever had. They expected approx. 140- 150 people at our caucus location but close to 300 people attended. There was a large number of first time voters, independents and even a few converted Republicans our location. The room was packed and people began to sort themselves by candidate. Once registration and sign up was done the fun began. The candidates' representatives gave their speeches on why you should choose their candidate. Some were firey, some were cool, but all of them were true belivers and they and the precinct captains were actively trying to garner support for their candidate. One hilarious Dodd captain was an Irish tenor and he strolled around singing trying to cajole people to come support his candidate. The wheeling and dealing was the most fun part of the experience. The Obama contingent was the largest, loudest and best organized. During the first caucus period some early projections said Obama was winning the state and the place just erupted. As the night went on more undecideds and supporters of non-viable candidates started to drift over to the Obama campaign. Richardson, Kucinich, Biden and Dodd had asked their supporters to caucus for Obama if they were not viable in their precincts. Quite a few Dodd supporters and a few (cause that's all that were there) Kucinich people followed through. Most of the Richardson and Biden folks went home. (haters) We got a final count and Obama handily won our precinct. The room erupted in cheers and then as we were leaving it was announced that Obama was projected to win the state and cheers started again. A lot of folks headed downtown to the victory celebration and the party continued. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just might win the day, though I still have this nagging doubt that America as a whole will elect a Black man named Obama But I could be wrong--i certainly was tonight! http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.caucuses/index.html With 97 percent of precincts reporting, Obama had the support of 38 percent of voters, compared to 30 percent for John Edwards and 29 percent for Hillary Clinton. The numbers tell us this was a debate between change and experience, and change won, said CNN political analyst Bill Schneider. Iowa delivered fatal blows to the campaigns of Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware. Both have decided to abandon their White House runs. Bill Richardson, who finished fourth, said his campaign plans to take the fight to New Hampshire. For the winners of both party's caucuses, it's an age revolt for Democrats versus a religious revolt for Republicans, Schneider said. On the Democratic side, Obama took 57 percent of the under-30 vote, according to CNN's analysis of entrance polls. Speaking to supporters, Obama called the night a defining moment in history. You came together as Democrats, Republicans and independents to stand up and say that we are one nation, we are one people and our time for change has come. Huckabee's victory can be attributed to his overwhelming support among evangelical voters and women, the polls indicate. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Whoa. Whoa, wait. Whoa. Disintegrating? Whowhere? I¹m confused. HOW did we get here? You¹ve cut off the post you were responding to and I don¹t follow you right now at all. On 1/4/08 4:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:32:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:tdlists%40multiculturaladvantage.com writes: then somebody please tell me why the black community seems to be disintegrating. Black males AND black females must take some form of responsibility for their problems (education, crime, single homes) and stop blaming racism and one another. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Preachify, sister! vhenry_89147 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tracey, I also had feeling about how impossible it was for Obama to win a nomination, let alone the presidency of the United States. Perhaps his win in Iowa is an indication that my cynicism over race relations in America can someday be quelled. Let's hope. In any event, guess we'll see what happens in New Hampshire. It still burns me up that some people continue to group the behavior of Black people in one all encompassing bucket. If I fit into that bucket, I wouldn't love science fiction the way I do, reading or writing it. For that matter, I wouldn't practice Yoga or have studied computer science either, right? Veronica --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Tracey de Morsella (formerly Tracey L. Minor) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me, like a lot of Blacks who have experienced racism, could not see White America voting for Obama -- a Black guy. We'd seen some real racist stuff come out of even the nicest people. Surely these people could not vote for someone that has a member of a race that they harbored such ugly thoughts and feelings about. . Then tonite happened. Obama won big in a state with only 2% Blacks. After a great deal of thought, I think I figured out how he won and why it is possible for him to win. There are two factors involved: 1. Most people - even the nicest people have unconscious biases against people who are different from them. This often comes in the form of racism when it comes to Black/White relations. Most of the time, they are not even aware of them, nor do they cultivate these feeling, and when confronted with some act that shows that the person obviously has that bias, he or she will adamantly deny it, because he or she does not see him or herself that way. So if you do not consciously see your self as someone who dislikes Blacks, then why would you not vote for him if you thought he was the best candidate. Think out it, theoretically those people you talk to that do not believe that racism is so prevalent and that when you experience a racist act, you are being hypersensitive or pulling the race card, are potential Obama voters. i personally know one or too who seem to like Obama 2. When I was growing up and even as a young adult, I would meet people who really liked and seem to accept me who said to me, You do not act like a Black person Or they would say some horrible thing about Blacks to me. When I would ask them then what are you doing with me. I would here something like, well you are not like them. this stuff used to burn me up. I can't tell you how many people I kicked to the curb over this stuff. Now I think most Whites who feel this way, know better then to express these thought out loud. (Biden being the exception ) Remember how complimentary Biden was about Obama being articulate? I suspect that Obama has probably had many encounters like the two I described above. He is able to blend in and be accepted by people from a variety of backgrounds. For that reason, I think people who might not be overt racists - who do not see themselves as racist, might not have a problem voting for him. So its off to New Hampshire and believe or now, the polls show that he is poised to beat Hilary. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just might win the day, though I still have this nagging doubt that America as a whole will elect a Black man named Obama But I could be wrong--i certainly was tonight! http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.caucuses/index.html With 97 percent of precincts reporting, Obama had the support of 38 percent of voters, compared to 30 percent for John Edwards and 29 percent for Hillary Clinton. The numbers tell us this was a debate between change and experience, and change won, said CNN political analyst Bill Schneider. Iowa delivered fatal blows to the campaigns of Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware. Both have decided to abandon their White House runs. Bill Richardson, who
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
The only source I¹ve seen you reference is Juan Williams and ³TV². I don¹t think a yahoo discussion thread is the same as what people feel on the streets. Change in this country has to happen from all levels, not just from blogs, but from the streets. Obama and Edwards are hitting up these unions, the working people in this country. Ain¹t a lot of dock workers maintaining blogs. You seem focused all day on Obama having an easy go of it for no other reason than because he is a partially white male. That was a great perspective for 1988. Now, honestly? Even the liberal/conservative jazz is old hat. It¹s more marketing. Being liberal or conservative was the new ³urban². There are some TOTALLY white males -- even on this list -- who will tell you that just being white is not enough. It takes money, and it takes a flawless marketing team. It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. It cost the country BILLIONS of dollars, and thousands of lives. America has chosen the woman they are going to stand behind, and I say again her name is Oprah Winfrey. This is a consumer based economy and she is the #1 influencer across all 50 states. And she has chosen Obama. In 2004 you had Puffy out here with Vote Or Die T shirts, Oprah, Tom Joyner, Tavis, all the Black people who can make people do things...all very vocal...all registering voters...and none of them endorsed a candidate. So guess what happened...nobody won. This time, everybody is saying Obama. And so, guess what¹s happening...Obama is coming out of the gates strong. Black people have to take responsibility for ourselves, yes, but that¹s not what we¹re talking about. We¹re talking about candidates for president of the United States. Truth be told, if we were talking about personal responsibility, we¹d be laughing ALL of these democrats off the stage and having a long talk with Kucinich to see how serious he REALLY is. Truth be told, if Black people were about self responsibility, there would have been three riots by now since 2004. We¹re not TALKING about that. We are talking about sending four people to the Pro Bowl. The public gets a say in who goes, and then the game has to be played to decide a winner. On 1/4/08 4:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:51:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:tdlists%40multiculturaladvantage.com writes: I believe that for you this conversation has been more about your dislike of Obama - which I understand It is not my dislike of Obama. I just think that there are issues that will not be touched because of gender, race and other problems. Hillary my notr be likable, but I don't think Obama is like either. From some of the liberal blogs/website people say that he is low on substance. Will the mainstream press start going after him? I think not. Also I think that there are those liberals that see a win as a end to any racist feeling that may exist in this country. Other threads I have seen say that that they voted for Obama because they know that he can not win the general election. I think he has not been attacted because he was not considered the front runner, but will they go after him if he is. Obama has been careful to race issues. He has not seem to bee to controversial. Do people really know his policies on other issues. Some liberals say he is a republcian-lite. He is not different than Clinton. He hope and change message is meaningless. Why should he get a free ride while Edwards, Rommney, and Huckabbee have to prove themselves. I still don't understand why Edwards is going after Clinto but never goes after Obama. He is content to be second place? If he wants the presdiential nom, then he needs to go after Obama. Something that only Clinton has done. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Daryle, in the Political World, none of them would stay safe for very long. Jordan and Shaq both being in the middle of divorces, Mike's being potentially ugly, considering the known fact that he's had mistresses, would certainly spawn some fodder that would break any potential candidacy. Tiki and Oprah, I can't find much dirt on at face value. Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You¹re not getting it. Michael Jordan is a ³safe² Black. Shaq is a ³safe² Black. Tiki Barber is a ³safe² Black. Oprah is a ³safe² Black. It¹s not about his assumed biraciality, it¹s about his marketing approach. On 1/4/08 12:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So he is a Safe black. Unlike someone is of obvious African American heritage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is no reason Good can't triumph over Evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the Mafia. -Kurt Vonnegut, A Man Without A Country - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. Edwards is a very rich man Obama is a rich man To say that they respresent poor white men is a joke. Pba,as tried a liberal foreign policy in the debate and was criticized for it. Especially with his Palestinian people are opprssed speech. He will have to become more right wing to fit into a realistic real war. The Democratic controlled Congress has not been able to cut off funding or stop the war. Do you think Obama or Edwards can do that? The Pentagon and the corporations that put them there will not allow that to happen. Do no be so quick to be the liberal that could. Liberal Democrrats have not done anything for the war and have not done anything for this country. They still vote to send jobs pverseas/ They still fund the war. They still cant balence the budget. Obama will have to give in to conservative Republicans/ To say that he will be some great liberal savior is a joke. Even Edwards knows this. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
So wait. You¹re saying that if I¹m rich, I¹m a right winger by default? On 1/4/08 5:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:yokozuna%40globalsoulmedia.com writes: It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. Edwards is a very rich man Obama is a rich man To say that they respresent poor white men is a joke. Pba,as tried a liberal foreign policy in the debate and was criticized for it. Especially with his Palestinian people are opprssed speech. He will have to become more right wing to fit into a realistic real war. The Democratic controlled Congress has not been able to cut off funding or stop the war. Do you think Obama or Edwards can do that? The Pentagon and the corporations that put them there will not allow that to happen. Do no be so quick to be the liberal that could. Liberal Democrrats have not done anything for the war and have not done anything for this country. They still vote to send jobs pverseas/ They still fund the war. They still cant balence the budget. Obama will have to give in to conservative Republicans/ To say that he will be some great liberal savior is a joke. Even Edwards knows this. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
--- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 2:56:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was not aware that conservatives liked him as you suggested. In Iowa, at least, conservatives do. More Republicans caucused with the democrats and voted for Obama than voted for Huck. WHITE REPUBLICANS jumped ship to vote for the Black candidate. This could be part of their misguided strategy to subvert the electable candidate, still, numbers mean something. Barack Obama on his name alone would be considered an unsafe Black man. He's presented himself as the intelligent but not intellectual, affable and approachable, Black but not too Black candidate. His image is fine toned, make no mistake. White people are for the most part totally confused about the issue of his Blackness and I doubt it factors in either way unless they are associating (or confusing) Blackness with how much is he like me? Many have tried to portray him as someone with Muslim extremists roots and drug taking. That is an odd way of showing that you like someone in my opinion. While I have seen the talking heads say last night that him being third world can help us become of the world, I've never heard anyone say they like him because he is biracial. Even if someone thought that, I do not think they would say it, because it might be perceived as racist. Tracy What is said in newspaper articles and internet discussions is difference what is heard on tv. From some of the more conservative points of view,an Obama win would be an end to the Jesse Jackson type of black american. An end to affirmative action and to blacks complaing about racism aka the Jena 6 kind of marches. In some cases Black men have it easier than White women. I don't believe that black men are always downtrodden when they step outside the door until they get home. Alot of thlem do have it easier than white women because they are men. Despite the idea that affirmative action has benefitted white females. Black males have benefitted from being men. Someties race is not an issue. You are right that some people don't like Clinto because she is Clinton. However I don't like the liberal hype that Obama will be any different than any other person. If the liberal Demoract Congress is any indication that it will be SSDD. If you listen to Juan Willams and other talk about him, they feel that is is the kind of black that should be leading america. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise? NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Oh, you are preaching to the choir! My son, who is a sophomore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, researched affirmative action for a Speech class speech he had to give. The government supplied statistics confirmed that a white EX CONVICT had a better chance of getting hired than a better qualified black male high school graduate with no priors. There are many a day when I believe the millions of young black men who opt out and refuse to play this zero sum game may have it right. Then I tighten the bootstraps I am lucky enough to have and send another check to keep my son enrolled at a public college where he will receive the diploma he will need to do the job I achieved without one. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, tdemorsella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you missed part of my overly long post :) I said, While a Black male who has climbed the corporate ladder playing the game is more likely to fit in the board room than a White woman, a Black woman is more likely to get a job than a Black man. I was comparing Black men to white women (not black women) and saying they do better once they are up the top. I was thinking of some of the people you were. They all learned how to work the system and ultimately became a part of the network. However recent surveys of boards have revealed that they are still the exception - not the rule. Once they get up in the upper echelon, Black men are more readily excepted than White women. While i is bad for white women in the board room, the situation is abysmal for Black women in the boardroom. However, statistically, Black women get in the door easier at entry-level and lower-management positions than Black men. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, ravenadal ravenadal@ wrote: I agree with most of what you say below, but my twenty plus years looking up through the glass ceiling at corporate america, I have seen many more black men than black women ascend to the top corporate spot. With Stan O'Neal ousted at Merril Lynch and Richard D. Parsons about to retire at Time Warner, Kenneth Chenault remains at American Express, Ronald Williams at Aetna, Clarence Otis Jr. at Darden Restaurants, Aylwin Lewis at sears and John W. Thompson at Symantac. I don't believe there is a similar list of African-American women. The top eschelon of corporate America remains an old boy club. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, tdemorsella tdlists@ wrote: Gymfig Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. The talking heads in the media often refer to him as Black. The conservatives portray him as a Black with muslim leanings. Hilary comes from a connected family, she is worth millions, has a history, ironically of top ties with the republican party starting with Barry Goldwater, and for the last 20 years or so, she has been apart of the elite of the democratic party. The woman is on the board of Walmart. She is considered American Aristocracy. She is a chairs and serves on several powerful committees in the Senate and I do not thing she exactly fit the profile of a woman excluded from the boardroom I have spent the past 15 years working with, reporting and training people on issues of race in the workplace and I have to tell you the male/female thing is not as black and white when it comes to Black men - even biracial men. While women consistent get paid less than men, Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female. Black men (even biracial men) have higher incidents of discrimination in the workplace than White women. There are other factors at work that you either overlooked or were not aware of.While a Black male who has climbed the corporate ladder playing the game is more likely to fit in the board room than a White woman, a Black woman is more likely to get a job than a Black man. Black men are more likely to get laid off than White women as well. Many educators start feeling threatened by Black males - even biracial Black males that look Black starting at age eight. This continues into adulthood. These are not my assumptions, but facts that have been proved time and again with data. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)in New York and many American cities still can not get a cab and people will cross the street when they see one coming. Black men (Black looking biracial men included)are also still experiencing racial profiling on the road. Despite a history of supporting women in elections, more women voted for Obama and Edwards than Hilary. More young people prefer them, and more
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
i really have to disagree with your saying America's not racist. As a Black man I still fight this stuff every day, whether it's inferiour white guys on my job giving me grief, the white cop or security guard who follows m ein the store, or the more generic white attitude that has whites speaking what they think is black slang to me, or making assumptions about my values and interests. I worked in HR for a while, and i can tell you that black people get discriminated against in hiring all the time, even now in 2008. And to say that black people don't want to end our problems? I'm surprised at that. I know a lot of blacks, rich and poor, educated and illiterate, who might blame some of their problems on racism, but they don't *embrace* that as an excuse. But they do see a system that still redlines black neighborhoods, that has businesses skittish to build in black neighborhoods, real estate agents leery of showing homes to blacks in a majority white neighborhood, and companies where white people support other whites at our expense. It's changed, it's gotten better, but it's not at all some fantasy we cook up to blame others for our problems. I'm fairly well educated (BS in Electrical Engineering, several hundred hours in Microsoft NT/Windows 2000 etc. training) speak good English, etc., and I still encounter racism and prejudice. i don't go looking for it, but i acknowledge it. And even if Obama's elected that doesn't mean racism will end in America. A president can attain the White House with basically half the vote, meaning half th electorate can still be just as backwards and unenlightened as they want. Finally, i have to comment on the thing about black man having all the advantages. I agree with Tracey's statement: while black men may apparently have an in in a male dominated corporate structure, the truth is that many whites only have room for one or the other, black men or black women. And the truth is that often white men see competent black men as threats. I have been in many a situation where white guys view me with veiled hostility even though i've done nothing to them, yet will joke and kid around with black women. some of that, frankly, is a sexist attitude: they see the women as less of a threat and someone they can joke and kid and flirt with. My wife has commented to me more than once on how white guys in corporate America are getting bolder than ever in flirting with black women. They're *women*, and that makes the guys feel good. but as a black man, what can I do for a straight white guy in that area? He can't flirt with me, can't feel somehow more physically powe rful over me the way he might with a woman. he might assume that i'm in incoming Alpha male who might mess with his little fiefdom. So out goes the threat (me) in favor of a black lady that threatens the guys less. I feel that you're kind of putting a divide here, drawing a line between Brothers and Sisters and lumping us with white men. as if you're saying black men take advantage of Sisters too and use the system against them. That's not true of all of us by any means. My wife is my partner, and i'm just as angry--angrier--at the combination sexist/racist treatment she takes as the racist treatment i get. i see a victory for her and all Sisters as a victory for us as a people and would never subscribe to the philosophy that i'm in the old boys club like the white guys. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are Considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. Tracy Poll after poll; discussion after discussion sees Obama as a biracial man. Halle may be the first black actress but she is also seen as biracial. Tiger woods may be seen blacks by some people but he is still seen as multiethnic also. Conservatives like him because of his biracial background. Not his black background. Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female Obama did not start from humble beginnings either. He is not the my father was a sharecropper black as many blacks who have achieved many things like to suggest. When people actually start asking what does Obama stand for. they cannot answer. I don't know who I will vote for, but I do not that this woe is the black man stuff will have to end with the election of a black man. That why I don't understand why people still think that America is still a racist society. I don't think that black america can really stomach and end to their problems. I am sure that white America cannot wait for the end of the Jena 6 soul patrol. Black men are still men.
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
In my mind, it is all smoke and mirrors. The reason I wanted Edwards is his history of going for the corporate juggler and he seems to be a donor outsider. All are hungry for power and that brass ring. I think its about picking the lessor of all evils. Who is likely not to attack Iran. Who might cut a few taxes to look good. Who might restore some civil liberties or at least prevent some more from being taken away. Despite his riches, the powers that be went out of their way to marginalize Edwards and his history as an attack pit bull up against the big guys made me opt for him. I think his history and some of his rhetoric terrifies corporate America. That made him my choice as the lessor of all evils. I wanted Gore, because Gore in his writings admitted that before 2000, that he had sold his soul. I think the new Gore coming back from having the election stolen would not have sold his soul this time around. I also think he did not run because he knew that he would not be able to run and win unless he sold his soul. Selling your soul is a prerequisite for the job as the leader of our country. The powers that be have seen to that. I thought Edwards, still might have a little of his left intact --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. Edwards is a very rich man Obama is a rich man To say that they respresent poor white men is a joke. Pba,as tried a liberal foreign policy in the debate and was criticized for it. Especially with his Palestinian people are opprssed speech. He will have to become more right wing to fit into a realistic real war. The Democratic controlled Congress has not been able to cut off funding or stop the war. Do you think Obama or Edwards can do that? The Pentagon and the corporations that put them there will not allow that to happen. Do no be so quick to be the liberal that could. Liberal Democrrats have not done anything for the war and have not done anything for this country. They still vote to send jobs pverseas/ They still fund the war. They still cant balence the budget. Obama will have to give in to conservative Republicans/ To say that he will be some great liberal savior is a joke. Even Edwards knows this. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
The basic differences are that it's a public vote, you can't leave until the caucus is done if you want your vote to count and the viability rules on the Democratic side. If your candidate can't garner 15% or more of the vote at a caucus location he's not considered viable and his votes go back into play. Those people can either choose to caucus with another candidate or leave the caucus. That's when the candidates representatives and caucus goers get sell their candidate. It was a great experience and it was awesome to see a roomful of people openly expressing their support of Obama. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can you briefly explain how a caucus works? How does it differ from a primary, and what's the difference in how the Democrats and Republicans do theirs? The Republican results counted actual votes cast, the Dems just the delegate votes? -- Original message -- From: B. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] The wife and I caucused for the first time and it was one of the greatest voting experiences we've ever had. They expected approx. 140- 150 people at our caucus location but close to 300 people attended. There was a large number of first time voters, independents and even a few converted Republicans our location. The room was packed and people began to sort themselves by candidate. Once registration and sign up was done the fun began. The candidates' representatives gave their speeches on why you should choose their candidate. Some were firey, some were cool, but all of them were true belivers and they and the precinct captains were actively trying to garner support for their candidate. One hilarious Dodd captain was an Irish tenor and he strolled around singing trying to cajole people to come support his candidate. The wheeling and dealing was the most fun part of the experience. The Obama contingent was the largest, loudest and best organized. During the first caucus period some early projections said Obama was winning the state and the place just erupted. As the night went on more undecideds and supporters of non-viable candidates started to drift over to the Obama campaign. Richardson, Kucinich, Biden and Dodd had asked their supporters to caucus for Obama if they were not viable in their precincts. Quite a few Dodd supporters and a few (cause that's all that were there) Kucinich people followed through. Most of the Richardson and Biden folks went home. (haters) We got a final count and Obama handily won our precinct. The room erupted in cheers and then as we were leaving it was announced that Obama was projected to win the state and cheers started again. A lot of folks headed downtown to the victory celebration and the party continued. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, KeithBJohnson@ wrote: Wow, i thought Edwards would take first place by a percentage point over Obama, with Hillary in third. I had Huckabee, Romney, and McCain as 1-2-3, respectively. Looks like Obama pulled off a major upset. Huckabee might have some real legs, given that he's a real fundamentalist Christian in some ways, but supportive of environmental issues, not averse to taxing for the poor, and pretty well respected by many Blacks--at least in Arkansas. I never could get with Romney, not because he's a Mormon, but because his positions have flip-flopped more than anyone in the last few years. Talk about an opportunistic chamelon. Now, how does Hillary proceed, given that liberal/independent New Hampshire might go for Obama and Edwards again, and ditto for South Carolina and the southern states? Indeed, let this momentum keep building and we could be looking at an Obama/Edwards ticket, which just might win the day, though I still have this nagging doubt that America as a whole will elect a Black man named Obama But I could be wrong--i certainly was tonight! http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.caucuses/index.html With 97 percent of precincts reporting, Obama had the support of 38 percent of voters, compared to 30 percent for John Edwards and 29 percent for Hillary Clinton. The numbers tell us this was a debate between change and experience, and change won, said CNN political analyst Bill Schneider. Iowa delivered fatal blows to the campaigns of Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware. Both have decided to abandon their White House runs. Bill Richardson, who finished fourth, said his campaign plans to take the fight to New Hampshire. For the winners of both party's caucuses, it's an age revolt for Democrats versus a religious revolt for Republicans, Schneider said. On the Democratic side, Obama took 57 percent of the under-30 vote, according to CNN's analysis of entrance polls. Speaking to supporters, Obama called the night a defining moment in history.
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
If anyone needs any kind of evidence as to entrenched presence of institutional racism in the United States they need only look at arrest, conviction and incarceration statistics in the our Justice System. Even the folks who work daily in this system will tell you it is racially biased against blacks and hispanics, most especially black men. America is racist at deeply fundamental level. Bosco --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i really have to disagree with your saying America's not racist. As a Black man I still fight this stuff every day, whether it's inferiour white guys on my job giving me grief, the white cop or security guard who follows m ein the store, or the more generic white attitude that has whites speaking what they think is black slang to me, or making assumptions about my values and interests. I worked in HR for a while, and i can tell you that black people get discriminated against in hiring all the time, even now in 2008. And to say that black people don't want to end our problems? I'm surprised at that. I know a lot of blacks, rich and poor, educated and illiterate, who might blame some of their problems on racism, but they don't *embrace* that as an excuse. But they do see a system that still redlines black neighborhoods, that has businesses skittish to build in black neighborhoods, real estate agents leery of showing homes to blacks in a majority white neighborhood, and companies where white people support other whites at our expense. It's changed, it's gotten better, but it's not at all some fantasy we cook up to blame others for our problems. I'm fairly well educated (BS in Electrical Engineering, several hundred hours in Microsoft NT/Windows 2000 etc. training) speak good English, etc., and I still encounter racism and prejudice. i don't go looking for it, but i acknowledge it. And even if Obama's elected that doesn't mean racism will end in America. A president can attain the White House with basically half the vote, meaning half th electorate can still be just as backwards and unenlightened as they want. Finally, i have to comment on the thing about black man having all the advantages. I agree with Tracey's statement: while black men may apparently have an in in a male dominated corporate structure, the truth is that many whites only have room for one or the other, black men or black women. And the truth is that often white men see competent black men as threats. I have been in many a situation where white guys view me with veiled hostility even though i've done nothing to them, yet will joke and kid around with black women. some of that, frankly, is a sexist attitude: they see the women as less of a threat and someone they can joke and kid and flirt with. My wife has commented to me more than once on how white guys in corporate America are getting bolder than ever in flirting with black women. They're *women*, and that makes the guys feel good. but as a black man, what can I do for a straight white guy in that area? He can't flirt with me, can't feel somehow more physically powe rful over me the way he might with a woman. he might assume that i'm in incoming Alpha male who might mess with his little fiefdom. So out goes the threat (me) in favor of a black lady that threatens the guys less. I feel that you're kind of putting a divide here, drawing a line between Brothers and Sisters and lumping us with white men. as if you're saying black men take advantage of Sisters too and use the system against them. That's not true of all of us by any means. My wife is my partner, and i'm just as angry--angrier--at the combination sexist/racist treatment she takes as the racist treatment i get. i see a victory for her and all Sisters as a victory for us as a people and would never subscribe to the philosophy that i'm in the old boys club like the white guys. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most biracial people with African blood are seen as Black - particularly those who look Black, say they are Black and are Considered prominent members of the Black community. Obama and his family are seen as Black. Tracy Poll after poll; discussion after discussion sees Obama as a biracial man. Halle may be the first black actress but she is also seen as biracial. Tiger woods may be seen blacks by some people but he is still seen as multiethnic also. Conservatives like him because of his biracial background. Not his black background. Black men get paid less than White men. a Black man with a traditional name is less likely to even get a job interview than a white female Obama did not start from humble beginnings either. He is not the my father was a sharecropper black as many blacks who have achieved many things like to suggest. When people
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
Not that I do not believe you about more Repblicans went for him than Huckabee. It rings true for me to some degree because of the high number of independents and that there were four times as many participated in the democratic caucus than the republican, but could you provide a source? Another point that I mentioned before that it appears that we agree on is that he qualifies as one of those Blacks that often hear, you don't seem Black or You're not like them He blends in and makes them feel at ease and more comfortable to vote for then say someone like Sharpton --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, tetsuwanatom1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was not aware that conservatives liked him as you suggested. In Iowa, at least, conservatives do. More Republicans caucused with the democrats and voted for Obama than voted for Huck. WHITE REPUBLICANS jumped ship to vote for the Black candidate. This could be part of their misguided strategy to subvert the electable candidate, still, numbers mean something. Barack Obama on his name alone would be considered an unsafe Black man. He's presented himself as the intelligent but not intellectual, affable and approachable, Black but not too Black candidate. His image is fine toned, make no mistake. White people are for the most part totally confused about the issue of his Blackness and I doubt it factors in either way unless they are associating (or confusing) Blackness with how much is he like me? Many have tried to portray him as someone with Muslim extremists roots and drug taking. That is an odd way of showing that you like someone in my opinion. While I have seen the talking heads say last night that him being third world can help us become of the world, I've never heard anyone say they like him because he is biracial. Even if someone thought that, I do not think they would say it, because it might be perceived as racist. Tracy What is said in newspaper articles and internet discussions is difference what is heard on tv. From some of the more conservative points of view,an Obama win would be an end to the Jesse Jackson type of black american. An end to affirmative action and to blacks complaing about racism aka the Jena 6 kind of marches. In some cases Black men have it easier than White women. I don't believe that black men are always downtrodden when they step outside the door until they get home. Alot of thlem do have it easier than white women because they are men. Despite the idea that affirmative action has benefitted white females. Black males have benefitted from being men. Someties race is not an issue. You are right that some people don't like Clinto because she is Clinton. However I don't like the liberal hype that Obama will be any different than any other person. If the liberal Demoract Congress is any indication that it will be SSDD. If you listen to Juan Willams and other talk about him, they feel that is is the kind of black that should be leading america. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise? NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
While gymfig may have cut off the comment. I'm the one that said disintegrating. Perhaps it is an exaggeration. I certainly hope so. But in some parts of the country, black men have 50% unemployment, college grad rates of black men are decreasing dramatically, the percentage of Blacks marrying is dropping dramatically, blacks placed in prison for petty crimes is increasing, offsprings of middle class blacks are increasingly falling behind; college educated blacks are finding it increasingly difficult to find gainful employment, in states where affirmative action has been abolished blacks pursuing college degrees has been cut in half. Community organizations supporting Black communities are finding it increasingly difficult to secure funds needed for operation. I could cite other factors, but if it is not disintegrating, I think something bad is definitively happening to us and no has yet figured out how to stop it. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whoa. Whoa, wait. Whoa. Disintegrating? Whowhere? I¹m confused. HOW did we get here? You¹ve cut off the post you were responding to and I don¹t follow you right now at all. On 1/4/08 4:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:32:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:tdlists%40multiculturaladvantage.com writes: then somebody please tell me why the black community seems to be disintegrating. Black males AND black females must take some form of responsibility for their problems (education, crime, single homes) and stop blaming racism and one another. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT: Obama, Huckabee Win Big in Iowa
bra-freakin'-vo!! -- Original message -- From: Daryle [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only source I¹ve seen you reference is Juan Williams and ³TV². I don¹t think a yahoo discussion thread is the same as what people feel on the streets. Change in this country has to happen from all levels, not just from blogs, but from the streets. Obama and Edwards are hitting up these unions, the working people in this country. Ain¹t a lot of dock workers maintaining blogs. You seem focused all day on Obama having an easy go of it for no other reason than because he is a partially white male. That was a great perspective for 1988. Now, honestly? Even the liberal/conservative jazz is old hat. It¹s more marketing. Being liberal or conservative was the new ³urban². There are some TOTALLY white males -- even on this list -- who will tell you that just being white is not enough. It takes money, and it takes a flawless marketing team. It takes a hook. Clinton has access to ALL of this, AND a hook, but her true underwear is showing. As Tracey said, Clinton is mad right wing with hers. Nobody wants to go down that road again. It cost the country BILLIONS of dollars, and thousands of lives. America has chosen the woman they are going to stand behind, and I say again her name is Oprah Winfrey. This is a consumer based economy and she is the #1 influencer across all 50 states. And she has chosen Obama. In 2004 you had Puffy out here with Vote Or Die T shirts, Oprah, Tom Joyner, Tavis, all the Black people who can make people do things...all very vocal...all registering voters...and none of them endorsed a candidate. So guess what happened...nobody won. This time, everybody is saying Obama. And so, guess what¹s happening...Obama is coming out of the gates strong. Black people have to take responsibility for ourselves, yes, but that¹s not what we¹re talking about. We¹re talking about candidates for president of the United States. Truth be told, if we were talking about personal responsibility, we¹d be laughing ALL of these democrats off the stage and having a long talk with Kucinich to see how serious he REALLY is. Truth be told, if Black people were about self responsibility, there would have been three riots by now since 2004. We¹re not TALKING about that. We are talking about sending four people to the Pro Bowl. The public gets a say in who goes, and then the game has to be played to decide a winner. On 1/4/08 4:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:51:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:tdlists%40multiculturaladvantage.com writes: I believe that for you this conversation has been more about your dislike of Obama - which I understand It is not my dislike of Obama. I just think that there are issues that will not be touched because of gender, race and other problems. Hillary my notr be likable, but I don't think Obama is like either. From some of the liberal blogs/website people say that he is low on substance. Will the mainstream press start going after him? I think not. Also I think that there are those liberals that see a win as a end to any racist feeling that may exist in this country. Other threads I have seen say that that they voted for Obama because they know that he can not win the general election. I think he has not been attacted because he was not considered the front runner, but will they go after him if he is. Obama has been careful to race issues. He has not seem to bee to controversial. Do people really know his policies on other issues. Some liberals say he is a republcian-lite. He is not different than Clinton. He hope and change message is meaningless. Why should he get a free ride while Edwards, Rommney, and Huckabbee have to prove themselves. I still don't understand why Edwards is going after Clinto but never goes after Obama. He is content to be second place? If he wants the presdiential nom, then he needs to go after Obama. Something that only Clinton has done. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
