Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, On 05/04/11 03:23, Serge Wroclawski wrote: Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group. The alternative to communicating in real-time is fundamentally changing your organisational structure to reduce international decision-making to an absolute bare minimum by devolution. For example, move to a kind of distributed software/database architecture, incorporate OpenStreetMap Australia, let them collect their own funds, operate their own database, make their own decisions, have their own logo, have their own project main page, have their own strategy working group, have their own license, and so on. Same for other continents or time zone bands. I know it sounds crazy and it is certainly not something we can do tomorrow - but then again many of us are better (and more comfortable) solving technical problems than dealing with humans. I am sure there must be other international projects where there is no centrally planned strategy and central funding/operations, just a very thin and powerless international body in which the regional/national organisations are members, and the latter have all the funding, operations, and manpower. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hello! Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group. I have another suggestion: learn how to use e-mail efficiently :-) An e-mail discussion need not take weeks if all interested people respond at least once in a day and off-topic e-mails are ignored instead of turned into flames. It takes a different mindset from on-line conversations (batch processing instead of on-line), but I have already seen many projects where it was very efficient. Have a nice fortnight -- Martin `MJ' Mares m...@ucw.cz http://mj.ucw.cz/ Faculty of Math and Physics, Charles University, Prague, Czech Rep., Earth Nothing is smiple enough to be not screwed up. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Why not setup a Wave server, using google Wave software. It's open source, and really efficient for real time as well as non real time communication. Alternative a google server could be used, but then it is just like other proprietary tools (though based on opensource software). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote: OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L 1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or maybe we should alternate? What part of Don't use IRC did you not comprehend? Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not make it a universal useful discussion forum. If you OSMF SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist on using IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of intentional exclusivity. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Everything would be better if Dave F. was in charge. The trains would run on time, logos would go through his personal approval process and unicorns would frolic near a turquoise lake in the sun. So, anyway, Grant was trying to be nice to you and offering to bring you in to the process that everyone else is happy with. Don't throw it back in his face. Steve On 5/3/2011 4:53 PM, Dave F. wrote: On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote: OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L 1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or maybe we should alternate? What part of Don't use IRC did you not comprehend? Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not make it a universal useful discussion forum. If you OSMF SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist on using IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of intentional exclusivity. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
We also discuss frequently on the strategic mailing list, so there's asynchronous options as well to participate. For people who want to discuss things reasonably, that is. == Mikel Maron == +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron From: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com To: OSM Talk talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 6:53:45 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote: OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L 1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or maybe we should alternate? What part of Don't use IRC did you not comprehend? Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not make it a universal useful discussion forum. If you OSMF SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist on using IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of intentional exclusivity. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Dave, This issue comes up constantly and no group has found any solutions which are ideal. Some folks suggest meetings using, say Gnome meeting, and then they're doled it's hard to set up, so Skype is suggested. Then some say Skype is proprietary, so we should switch to a phone conference system. Those cost money, and even when we use them, often there's noise, or it's hard to hear people, and significant time is spent dealing with phone issues. It's then suggested IRC is better because there are no audio issues. Then some, like you, complain about IRC. The time issue isn't solvable either. Finding a time that works with everyone, with different schedules, is hard enough. Now add the fact that OSM members are distributed around the world, and the problem is simply not solvable. Many of us have tried tools to help with this, like Doodle, and we've tried having meetings at different times, and neither one works. People always feel left out if they can't attend, and having different meeting times just makes people apt to miss the meetings, and then you get different meetings with non-overlapping attendees. The frustration you hear from folks like Steve stems from the fact that folks like Grant and the others in the project put in their personal time and effort to make this project as good as they can make it, and so often instead of due praise for working so diligently trying to make the project succeed, they get a lot of criticism from the community. It's easy for us to forget how much time and energy it takes to do the kind of work Grant and others do, and while I'm not saying they or anyone else is immune from criticism, I think that it needs to be measured against their good works. Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 2011-05-04 03:23, Serge Wroclawski skrev: Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group. The problem is that with the need for real time, at best 1/3 of the world is at sleeping time at every given moment of the day. This 1/3 will potentially feel left out. Real time meetings as such always is a major problem in activities spread around the world. The only solutions so far I seen so far that might work is to flatten the earth and that way remove time zones. That may not be a practical one thou. With the limitations of it have to be real time, the question is not how to find a solutions but who should be asleep while the meetings go on. / Balp -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk3A3g4ACgkQtbR3SXmySrdQxACffb2bVJSM72I1Mpj5G08nryZD b3wAn0WdXzoYMuH78qMxQ7nxph7txoH7 =8/Ki -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote: I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was reading. In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with it! No. Don't use IRC!!! Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of *everything* that's said allows *all* to contribute at *all* times. It's really simple. Even enough for you to deal with it. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 2 May 2011, at 11:18, Dave F. wrote: On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote: I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was reading. In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with it! No. Don't use IRC!!! Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of *everything* that's said allows *all* to contribute at *all* times. It's really simple. Even enough for you to deal with it. But causes discussions that could be had in 10 minutes to get spread out over 10 weeks ;) Bob ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, On 05/02/11 12:22, Thomas Davie wrote: Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of *everything* that's said allows *all* to contribute at *all* times. But causes discussions that could be had in 10 minutes to get spread out over 10 weeks ;) Dave is right about the advantages of asynchronous discussion; I usually prefer that as well. But things being dragged out endlessly really is a serious disadvantage, and not acceptable in many cases. In an IRC meeting you will usually have a small number of people and all of them are (or are at least expected to be) there, i.e. they will read and participate, and you can get a quick idea of what the majority thinks. On IRC if someone comes up with a stupid idea, someone can say soemthing like motion to ignore Fred's stupid idea and get on with our agenda, and then everyone will say aye and Fred is expected to accept that. That kind of discipline is necessary if you want to make decisions efficiently and not waste everyone's time - precious time, I might add, since for many the weekly hour on SWG IRC is not the only recurring meeting they attend. On a mailing list, and certainly not on this mailing list, you do not have that discipline. Someone comes up with a stupid idea, is told by a bunch of others that his idea is stupid, but nonetheless continues with posting after posting. It's ok to have a forum where people can air their views ad infinitum, but it is not suitable for making decisions. Maybe it is possible to find a combination. SWG usually announce their agenda well ahead so community is free to discuss that on the list beforehand (at the SWG meeting someone could then say mood on list seems to favour this/that, of course SWG could still decide otherwise). Problem is that, being conducted by humans like us, SWG meetings do not always follow the agenda strictly. Might be necessary to add discipline to SWG meetings in form of don't discuss stuff that wasn't on the agenda - put them on agenda for next week, then again that would cause more bueraucracy overhead and reduce usefulness... Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote: I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was reading... A quick note to point out that we'd wouldn't be able to have this discussion on IRC as we either live in different time zones or our sleep patterns are asynchronous. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
SteveC schrieb: You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. You might want to take a look at how we came up with a somewhat facelifted Firefox logo some time ago at Mozilla. There was both a clear path led by individuals and designers with swift decisions being made and at the same time good ways for input from the community, which was weighed in the process - and it took 2 or 3 proposals to come to the final one, which is always good as everyone forgets something in that work - like the screwed up perspective in that OSM logo rework (and I also think that one is hard to reduce to small sizes and still be useful, for example). It's good that some activity is being done, but it can be done better. In that light, let's try to make it better. :) Robert Kaiser ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 2 May 2011 12:43, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote: I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was reading... A quick note to point out that we'd wouldn't be able to have this discussion on IRC as we either live in different time zones or our sleep patterns are asynchronous. OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L 1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or maybe we should alternate? Regards Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 5:22 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 May 2011, at 11:18, Dave F. wrote: On 02/05/2011 05:53, Andrew Gregory wrote: I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was reading. In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with it! No. Don't use IRC!!! Discuss on this forum instead of IRC. It's self recording of *everything* that's said allows *all* to contribute at *all* times. It's really simple. Even enough for you to deal with it. But causes discussions that could be had in 10 minutes to get spread out over 10 weeks ;) And also ignores people that can't use IRC for a number of reasons (work doesn't allow it, generally), or like me choose not to hang out on IRC all day because it's incredibly disruptive to actually *getting work done*. -- Jeff Ollie ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Andreas Perstinger wrote: Is the current logo change a major decision for you? See also Robert's comparison: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif). Actually it just highlights all of the problems nicely. Having been required to comply with the needs of the visually impaired on a number of projects, the importance of contrast at a lower resolution IS quite critical! AT LEAST change the icon views back to the old style if it does not matter that we can all use the older style anyway. But personally I find the current image simply a damp squib in the corner ... perhaps because I HAVE to focus on it better to see any detail at all ... even with my glasses on. A logo should be 'crisp' and scale nicely from Icon through to larger image, and the loss of the distinctive outline IS the major problem. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 02:32:34PM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Jochen Topf wrote: Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! Leave the humour to Fake SteveC, Jochen, he does it so much better than you. Yes, he is much better. But I am still learning. How can we get better if we don't try? Thats the OSM way. We try something new, sometimes we fail, sometimes we don't. But we always learn in the process. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 09:40:39PM +, j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I assume that the twice a year change and the funny, alliterative animal names are references to Ubuntu Linux. Note that, while each release of Ubuntu has its own name, the Ubuntu logo has remained unchanged for years. The Ubuntu logo changed last year, I believe. Old: “Circle of friends” is multi‐coloured, typeface is rounded. http://www.lions-wing.net/lessons/ubuntu3/UbuntuLogo.png New: “Circle of friends” is encased in a circle, one colour, typeface is pointy (technical term). https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand#Logos http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, David Murn wrote: Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting isnt as easy as 'just showing up'. Infact, its not even really possible to be invovled by reading the minutes or the meeting notes. Those of us who wish to be involved, join public discussions and forums. Apparently those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer interested in public discussions and forums. Exactly how was anyone to have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo, when the first that 99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asks HERE after its already been decided and changed. Thing is, we have a ton of people who like to have a say, but that's all you ever get from them - words. They demand to be informed, so that they can then pick and choose where they want to be involved, where being involved means that they will say things like I think this should be done differently. This, however, is not how things work in OSM. There is hardly any part of OSM that is not open for you to participate; OSMF board may be an exception because you would actually have to persuade people to vote for you before, but any working group will most certainly accept anyone who offers to do a share of the work. What you cannot do is join a working group, do not participate in the work, but expect to have a say. You can of course still say things like I think this should be done differently, and you may even get heard, but if you instead say I have made this plan and worked out the following and is everyone ok with me implementing that next week? then you will have 10 times the weight of someone saying this should be done differently. Or 100 times. This is something that I had to learn, and still have to learn, as well. Still, I am tempted very often to say my opinion about something where I am not capable or not willing to help, and I frequently do - but at least I have learned not to complain if those who do the work choose to ignore me. OSM is not a democracy in which everyone has equal say with no questions asked. In OSM you have to earn your say. Strategic working group can hardly be said to be doing things behind closed doors, in fact their meeting notes were usually up online HOURS after a meeting was over, and meetings were always announced in advance and held on an open IRC channel. From time to time there may be really important things where one would like to have a broad input from people in the project. (I don't consider the logo change to be one of them.) And I can see that many of those who do the most work in this project are meanwhile critical of doing something like a post to talk becasue it will attract so many people who don't help to do the work but actually pull the cart in another direction. In a sane environment you would do it anyway, because any sane person must take into account the possibility of being wrong - so that sometimes people pulling the cart in another direction might help to prevent a mistake being made. Also, in a sane environemnt, for any one person who is disruptive you would attract five others, giving you a positive net contribution. But I - very reluctantly - start to agree with those who say that while it would be desirable to involve the community-at-large, the mechanisms we currently have seem to somehow not target the community but a handful of malcontents whom you cannot please whatever you do. This is an unfortunate dynamic, and we should look to other large communities to find out how they deal with it. Certainly, after this thread, anyone *not* wanting to involve the community-at-large will have one more reason. It would be great if we could somehow reboot and arrive at something sane again. This should not be an us against them situation on any side. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Frederik Ramm wrote: It would be great if we could somehow reboot and arrive at something sane again. Superb posting. +1 to all of that. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/New-Logo-in-the-Wiki-tp6319413p6321156.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
2011/5/1 Ilya Zverev zve...@textual.ru: I guess, the old logo should remain for low zooms (favicons, for example). I agree and would go even further: the new logo is actually a clip art, nicer to have it on the website, but not really suitable as a logo. The old one instead is more logo-like (even if it too is quite complex, more complex then logos usually are). I don't see a problem with using both: a magnifier, a map and binary code are present in all of them, +1 cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
If you wanna critize SWG/OSMF *again*, please, create new thread but don't spam this one. I know there is lot of desire to express pain how communication doesn't work between some very loud minority and OSMF, but please, do it properly. About logo - new version looks excellent in high resolution, thanks; I suggest that next step would be creating icons with lesser details for each level (32x32, 16x16, etc.) so everyone can replace their art (favicons, applications, etc.) accordingly. Also I hope that someone will move futher and create whole coorporate identity for letters, local chapters, etc. so anyone who wish to communicate as OSM mapper can do so without reinventing a wheel. We need a little bit more consistency in OSM image (and I don't mean new version of logo here). About merchandise - I highly doubt that it will change anything. I mean - logo haven't changed that much, safety wests still says fully what it is so they are still useful. However, I agree, that blog post with explaining about new logo and other plans of touching up OSM identity would have been nice before actual change. I mean, decisions were already made, so why not just inform people more about it? Yes, there would be regular complaining, as usual, but at least it would be done. I really hope that SWG/OSMF people do understand that most of us don't see them as enemies and want to communicate about their decisions. Not everyone wants to flame, but I'm quite sure that most of us just want to be kept in the loop. Cheers and have a good mapping, Peter Latvia OSM community ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Elizabeth Dodd writes: ... you make major decisions behind closed doors ... Have you knocked on the door and asked to be let in? Nobody who is whinging has answered that question. Obviously, because they haven't. Easier to whinge than actually do work. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
+1 Regards, Gert Gremmen -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Elizabeth Dodd [mailto:ed...@billiau.net] Verzonden: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:51 AM Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop. -Mikel You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it. You actually prove the point. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
thank you Frederik == Mikel Maron == +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org To: David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 5:21:53 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki Hi, David Murn wrote: Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting isnt as easy as 'just showing up'. Infact, its not even really possible to be invovled by reading the minutes or the meeting notes. Those of us who wish to be involved, join public discussions and forums. Apparently those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer interested in public discussions and forums. Exactly how was anyone to have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo, when the first that 99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asks HERE after its already been decided and changed. Thing is, we have a ton of people who like to have a say, but that's all you ever get from them - words. They demand to be informed, so that they can then pick and choose where they want to be involved, where being involved means that they will say things like I think this should be done differently. This, however, is not how things work in OSM. There is hardly any part of OSM that is not open for you to participate; OSMF board may be an exception because you would actually have to persuade people to vote for you before, but any working group will most certainly accept anyone who offers to do a share of the work. What you cannot do is join a working group, do not participate in the work, but expect to have a say. You can of course still say things like I think this should be done differently, and you may even get heard, but if you instead say I have made this plan and worked out the following and is everyone ok with me implementing that next week? then you will have 10 times the weight of someone saying this should be done differently. Or 100 times. This is something that I had to learn, and still have to learn, as well. Still, I am tempted very often to say my opinion about something where I am not capable or not willing to help, and I frequently do - but at least I have learned not to complain if those who do the work choose to ignore me. OSM is not a democracy in which everyone has equal say with no questions asked. In OSM you have to earn your say. Strategic working group can hardly be said to be doing things behind closed doors, in fact their meeting notes were usually up online HOURS after a meeting was over, and meetings were always announced in advance and held on an open IRC channel. From time to time there may be really important things where one would like to have a broad input from people in the project. (I don't consider the logo change to be one of them.) And I can see that many of those who do the most work in this project are meanwhile critical of doing something like a post to talk becasue it will attract so many people who don't help to do the work but actually pull the cart in another direction. In a sane environment you would do it anyway, because any sane person must take into account the possibility of being wrong - so that sometimes people pulling the cart in another direction might help to prevent a mistake being made. Also, in a sane environemnt, for any one person who is disruptive you would attract five others, giving you a positive net contribution. But I - very reluctantly - start to agree with those who say that while it would be desirable to involve the community-at-large, the mechanisms we currently have seem to somehow not target the community but a handful of malcontents whom you cannot please whatever you do. This is an unfortunate dynamic, and we should look to other large communities to find out how they deal with it. Certainly, after this thread, anyone *not* wanting to involve the community-at-large will have one more reason. It would be great if we could somehow reboot and arrive at something sane again. This should not be an us against them situation on any side. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Frederick, I think you are right, and we need to find a sane way of doing things as you put it. In this case, it would have worked well to put a message on this mailing list saying that the strategic working group exists, they are charged with looking after the OSM logo among other things, and they plan to discuss it at a certain time on a certain day. So anyone who has views could express them at the meeting or perhaps before. Finally, if it is the working group that is ultimately going to decide, that needs to be made clear at the start, so that those who disagree with this way of working can talk about it then, rather than after the decision has been made and people are already committed to their positions. (In other words separate the issue itself from the meta-issue of who gets to rule on it.) It might make a bit of noise on this list if everything that needs to be discussed gets mentioned here first, but it would be paid back a hundredfold in cutting down the acrimony afterwards. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Elizabeth, I don't see David's comments as constructive. Terms like consulting the community is quite vague and Steve has said that many of his prior efforts to consult the community end in flame wars. Now let me give it a try: I think the OSMF should make (more) use of polling. Not for everything. But once or twice a year would be a nice way to involve the community. Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: There is hardly any part of OSM that is not open for you to participate; Note that open IRC is the Internet equivalent to the town hall meetings. In some instances they work well. But it is remarkably easy for one grouping to impose their will on the community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_hall_meeting OSMville is already the size of a small city and many of us do not have English as a first language. Town hall meetings cannot be the only way to involve the community. Regards, Nic On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: This has not been constructive in the slightest. Inflammatory and untrue. I don't have time for this. Most of us don't. You're making a mockery of the hard work that's gone into this project. Stop. Just stop. let me rewrite the piece from David Murn a big part of the discussion is the way that we as a community are treated. If SWG and OSMF feel they have the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the efforts of the community they refuse to consult with. Maybe SWG needs to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway. This is constructive. It is hard hitting and direct. Sometimes medicine is bitter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 01/05/2011 20:50, Nic Roets wrote: Note that open IRC is the Internet equivalent to the town hall meetings. No, it's not. Those occur in the time zone of the those involved. IRC meetings, on the other hand, occur outside of many OSM users waking/working day. This is another reason for the descenting voices to feel it's behind closed doors. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 2 May 2011 09:03, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 01/05/2011 20:50, Nic Roets wrote: Note that open IRC is the Internet equivalent to the town hall meetings. No, it's not. Those occur in the time zone of the those involved. IRC meetings, on the other hand, occur outside of many OSM users waking/working day. This is another reason for the descenting voices to feel it's behind closed doors. I just had to comment on this because I could hardly believe what I was reading. In a global, world-wide-web, no matter what time is selected for an IRC (or whatever) meeting, it's going to be inconvenient for *someone*. Deal with it! Only tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists could possible consider it was behind closed doors. Not that I've looked, but I'd bet anything there's an open record of the entire IRC conversation archived somewhere accessible. Sheesh. -- Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 30 April 2011 12:56, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I like the new logo, it is not radically different and is an iterative improvement from the last. It was discussed at yesterday's Strategic irc meet: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-04-29 Also discussed on the strategic list: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/strategic/2011-April/000372.html Feel free to join the IRC meet, the next one is at Friday 06 May 2011 @ 1600UTC in irc channel #osm-strategic on OFTC, else join via http://irc.openstreetmap.org/ Regards Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Grant While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) (it does seem to be a bit outside it's charter ...), I believe Martin issue is with the rampant re-active instead of pro-active information policy that infects all parts of OSM. Not that I don't understand some of the reasons for this, but on the other hand it does, unnecessarily, create a fair amount of animosity. While we are on the subject of the WDWG (:-)) I would like to point out that there is at least one complete mock-up of an alternative front page that many consider superior to what is currently in use. I'll see if I can find a reference to that later today. Simon Am 30.04.2011 14:10, schrieb Grant Slater: On 30 April 2011 12:56, M∡rtin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I like the new logo, it is not radically different and is an iterative improvement from the last. It was discussed at yesterday's Strategic irc meet: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-04-29 Also discussed on the strategic list: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/strategic/2011-April/000372.html Feel free to join the IRC meet, the next one is at Friday 06 May 2011 @ 1600UTC in irc channel #osm-strategic on OFTC, else join via http://irc.openstreetmap.org/ Regards Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Am 30.04.2011 um 15:05 schrieb Simon Poole: Grant While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) (it does seem to be a bit outside it's charter ...), I believe Martin issue is with the rampant re-active instead of pro-active information policy that infects all parts of OSM. Not that I don't understand some of the reasons for this, but on the other hand it does, unnecessarily, create a fair amount of animosity. +1 I think it would have been more than appropriate to notify the community about such an important change. A short email/blog post/forum post telling the community that – the logo has been changed – why the logo has been changed – who made the decision and why they decided to go with this one – and where to find the new logo as .png and .svg files so that they can update their own projects and websites would have been enough and not much work for someone from Strategic to write. -- Jonas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
From: Simon Poole si...@poole.ch While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) (it does seem to be a bit outside it's charter ...), I believe Martin issue is with the rampant re-active instead of pro-active information policy that infects all parts of OSM. Not that I don't understand some of the reasons for this, but on the other hand it does, unnecessarily, create a fair amount of animosity SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it, and we're trying to put together the right _approach_ to improve it. Many of the issues and possible solutions are known, but OSM has been stuck on how to implement for a long time. So we're trying to figure out the plan. That's different from actually doing the design work. Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would be a good start. We simply said to the coders in the group ... implement one idea, individually, for the site and make a pull request. The logo was the first. Agreed, that a blog post on the logo would've been a simple and good move. I'll ask for this now. Cheers -Mikel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, I don't have issues with the process (I wasn't involved in selecting the old logo so I don't mind others caring for that). But I think that something is technically wrong with the new logo; I think if you were looking at a magnifying glass from the angle chosen here, the end of the handle would not be visible like it is here. It's hard to pinpoint/describe this exactly for someone who is as untalented in drawing things as I am, but I've tried to sketch what I think would be more correct version here: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osm_logo_soft_freds_version.svg This is not perfect either but maybe someone with more skill than myself could have a look at the issue and make the new logo look right. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it, and we're trying to put together the right _approach_ to improve it. Unfortunately a logo is a big deal because it effects lots of people. It effects people making anything with the OSM brand on it. I have lots of OSM related material (pamphlets, handouts, pens, etc.) with the old logo. I understand the issues this community has about announcements, in both directions. On the one hand, you want to make announcements because it's the right thing to do, but at the same time, this community has a penchant for long debates which all too often turn bitter. But yes, a blog post would have in order on something this far reaching. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Am 30.04.2011 um 15:55 schrieb Frederik Ramm: Hi, I don't have issues with the process (I wasn't involved in selecting the old logo so I don't mind others caring for that). But I think that something is technically wrong with the new logo; I think if you were looking at a magnifying glass from the angle chosen here, the end of the handle would not be visible like it is here. It's hard to pinpoint/describe this exactly for someone who is as untalented in drawing things as I am, but I've tried to sketch what I think would be more correct version here: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osm_logo_soft_freds_version.svg This is not perfect either but maybe someone with more skill than myself could have a look at the issue and make the new logo look right. I agree that the perspective of the handle doesn't seem right and you're version seems to be a lot better. For me it looks like the glass is laying flat and the handle is sticking out a little bit in the original version. Your approach seems to be to make the handle also lie flat, another way would be to shift the glass to fit the current angle of the handle. If anyone wants to compare the two different versions, here's the link for the original version. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/7/79/Public-images-osm_logo.svg -- Jonas___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
2011/4/30 Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com: From: Simon Poole si...@poole.ch While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it. the logo is not an usability topic. Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would be a good start. Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some still are old versions). There is two quotes I want to cite from the log: 1. (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW? (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though 2. (12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have people work on design who... know how to design and build things It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal, it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print material and maps(!)... Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine them, ... Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front page. cheers, Martin __ [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo: http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368qo=8 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process - I'm not in favor of that in this case at all. Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM! Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com: From: Simon Poole si...@poole.ch While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it. the logo is not an usability topic. Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would be a good start. Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some still are old versions). There is two quotes I want to cite from the log: 1. (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW? (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though 2. (12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have people work on design who... know how to design and build things It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal, it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print material and maps(!)... Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine them, ... Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front page. cheers, Martin __ [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo: http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368qo=8 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything. From: Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org To: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process - I'm not in favor of that in this case at all. Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM! Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On samedi 30 avril 2011 at 17:54, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote : What are you all whining about ? The new CT clearly transfers most of your rights to OSMF, and this what happens if you transfer rights to a self appointed group of people that have joint together to do what they think is best for OSM, and got the power from the community. Wow! Even on a discussion about the logo someone manage to highjack the thread with FUD about the license change. Amazing! -- Renaud Michel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Mikel and SWG don't have to take all this, I did it so flame me Jochen. Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:04, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything. From: Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org To: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process - I'm not in favor of that in this case at all. Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM! Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Martijn, Martijn van Exel wrote: I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' To be honest, if SWG started forming a corporate identity subcommittee I'd probably run away screaming. (They would provide local chapters with little brochures explaining how much space there must be between the logo and any text, and which Pantone colours exactly to use for the logo. Nothing else will do!) Next, we'll have to hire a web designer and an usability consultant, and a PR company craft press releases about how OSM is reinventing location and other bullshit bingo top hits. To continue that on the technical side, any change we make would have to be announced one year in advance to that nobody's mission-critical application can fail. We would have to hire full-time technical staff and implement frozen zones to make sure that our systems are perfectly oiled at critical times, etc. etc. etc. - goodbye OSM Foundation, hello OSM Corporation. I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of complicated three-level approval process. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
2011/4/30 SteveC st...@asklater.com: You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. I remember a different process when the foundation got its logo, and it did happen. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. It is not that people don't like the new logo, I would have expected a process like: 0. Announce that you are going to change the logo in 4 (or 8) weeks. 1. publish a link to the logo proposal 2. get some comments 3. implement (eventually) some of the conclusions 4. you are satisfied or go to 1. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:54 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: What are you all whining about ? The new CT clearly transfers most of your rights to OSMF, and this what happens if you transfer rights to a self appointed group of people that have joint together to do what *they* think is best for OSM, and got the power from the community. This was the first step. I have to agree with that, you have given up all your rights now, so just accept it. I did not accept it and am not planning on it, But I will continue to contribue to OSM as they allow me, without accepting the contributors terms, by publishing my changes under CC-BY-SA for all to use as they want. I am working on mapping now, completely outside of any central osm database using git http://osmopenlayers.blogspot.com/2011/04/mapping-osm-without-central-database.html http://osmopenlayers.blogspot.com/2011/04/restart-of-kosovo-in-osm-git.html I dont need any central database, rendering can be done locally and shared. feel free to join me, I am working on a new blog post on some other work. Ideas are to make a tiny rails engine that you can use locally that uses git or extend josm to use git for you. mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
No Steve, you don't have to take this. Anyone trying to do something for this project shouldn't have to take abuse. How about we stop useless flaming. Seriously, this is just self-destructive behavior. How about if anyone in this community has something to say, they say it constructively, with respect, with understanding of what we've been through before. I'm not saying we can't disagree, or make suggestions to each other. But stop wasting our energy with nastiness. From: SteveC st...@asklater.com To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com Cc: Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org; Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org; osm talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 11:12:31 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki Mikel and SWG don't have to take all this, I did it so flame me Jochen. Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:04, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: So tired of the bad attitude in OSM. Perhaps you're just trying to be funny Jochen, but really, this makes me want to quit trying to do anything. From: Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org To: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 10:53:46 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:11:52PM +0200, Martijn van Exel wrote: On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed that there is a new OSM logo in the wiki. I find it strange that important things like changing the well established logo of the project are beeing changed without any discussion or notice on any of the lists, or did I miss something? Or was the site hacked? I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' and it's not something you just implement by accepting a pull request. Secondly, there's tons of derived products that are sitting there looking dated all of a sudden; not only national or sub-project web sites, also printed materials. It seems very amateurish to have different logo versions sitting around in different parts of the project. All in all I believe some advance notice would have been a good idea. Mind you, I'm not even talking about a community voting process - I'm not in favor of that in this case at all. Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! And I think having a logo that looks a bit skewed is a perfect fit for OSM. It symbolizes the imperfect nature of OSM! Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Come on Martin. Look, yes we can always, always be better at communication. But if we had a process like that we might have got to actually one day putting a new logo up. In the process with all the flames and the people screaming no, and all that, the people actually doing then work would get demoralized, like they are right now. You should take it as a good sign there isn't some huge process and that you are as involved as anyone. I think jockru also said he wanted a blog post? Well he has access to opengeodata as much as we all do! :-) The process you outline is reasonable on a constructive list. This just isn't a constructive place a lot of the time. Instead of taking 8 weeks to have a process, let's treat it as 8 weeks where anyone can help fix these theoretical and technical logo issues. It's right there, anyone can help. So who's going to do it? Steve stevecoast.com On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:17, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/30 SteveC st...@asklater.com: You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. I remember a different process when the foundation got its logo, and it did happen. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. It is not that people don't like the new logo, I would have expected a process like: 0. Announce that you are going to change the logo in 4 (or 8) weeks. 1. publish a link to the logo proposal 2. get some comments 3. implement (eventually) some of the conclusions 4. you are satisfied or go to 1. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
2011/4/30 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of complicated three-level approval process. I also had a side thought on this, and I am glad you described this so well, so the logical next step this way would be to fix the first issue (perspective) by exchanging it with your fix: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
I am almost sure that also the original creator would make some small improvements if asked. The motivation to get into details is much higher when it is not a simple draft but you know that the result will be used millions of times in the web... I also suggest to work on a low-res version and a b/w version. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
I just don't see what wanting to avoid flame wars on this list (which will happen anyway QED), has to do with informing the large majority of participants in OSM in advance of, not unimportant, changes and events. Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 30 April 2011 17:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/30 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of complicated three-level approval process. I also had a side thought on this, and I am glad you described this so well, so the logical next step this way would be to fix the first issue (perspective) by exchanging it with your fix: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png The wiki has now been updated to the perspective fixed version, the www.osm.org will likely get fixed later today. Regards Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Grant Slater writes: Do you think the new logo is an improvement over the old logo? If I had only published this logo a month ago, we wouldn't be having this argument now: http://russnelson.com/temp/russ-osm-logo.gif -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com The first of every month|should be like April. 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On 30 April 2011 19:04, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Grant Slater writes: Do you think the new logo is an improvement over the old logo? If I had only published this logo a month ago, we wouldn't be having this argument now: http://russnelson.com/temp/russ-osm-logo.gif While amusing, I don't think some of the OSM devs ( zere, gravitystorm, harry-wood and smsm1) who were retrenched by Cloudmade would appreciate that animated logo. Regards Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Martijn, Martijn van Exel wrote: I'd have to concur. Firstly, a new logo is not something you roll out on its own, it's part of a new 'corporate identity' To be honest, if SWG started forming a corporate identity subcommittee I'd probably run away screaming. (They would provide local chapters with little brochures explaining how much space there must be between the logo and any text, and which Pantone colours exactly to use for the logo. Nothing else will do!) Next, we'll have to hire a web designer and an usability consultant, and a PR company craft press releases about how OSM is reinventing location and other bullshit bingo top hits. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a proponent of any of that corporate identity Scheiße, but the fact of the matter is that there are innumerable publications using the now-defunct OSM logo and it's going to confuse people if they see a different logo for what we would like to think of as one entity. I'm as much a fan of leaving things to the community to sort out, but some things should be coordinated somewhat. I believe that is what the OSMF and the working groups are for. [..] I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of complicated three-level approval process. I think one long hard look at taginfo is haphazardry enough for even most people *in* the community ;) -- Martijn van Exel http://about.me/mvexel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Martijn van Exel-3 wrote: Don't get me wrong - I'm not a proponent of any of that corporate identity Scheiße, but the fact of the matter is that there are innumerable publications using the now-defunct OSM logo and it's going to confuse people if they see a different logo for what we would like to think of as one entity. Perhaps we shouldn't consider it defunct for now, but simply as another variant of the logo. There are already a number of different variants of the logo in use both by OSMF itself, as well as by various entities building ontop of OSM, like the OpenCylcleMap logo and the OpenSeaMap logo. They however all have a common element, the magnifying glass with a map as a background, which is sufficient to immediately identify them as somehow belonging together. The new logo again uses this theme and is therefore still imho immediately identifiable as belonging to the OSM brand, so I'd hope that it isn't much of an issue if various marketing material still use the older logo variant for a (considerable) while. At the same time, not doing it in a single coordinated step, allows us to play around with the design for the next little while and iron out any wrinkles like the perspective until the largest number of people are happy with it. With it only being on online resources for the moment, it can be again changed as quickly as it was yesterday, which allows the community to see it in action and see what they think of it. If it then turns out, there are significant disadvantages and it wasn't just a (understandable) reluctance for change of something as potentially emotional as the logo, then it should be easily possible to address that. Once the design has stabilized, it will then naturally trickle out to all the other uses of the logo. If it were a more radical change, as a number of previous logo suggestions have been in the past with no recognizability between the two, I would totally agree that it would have had to be coordinated and discussed much more and better than the current switch has been. Kai-- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/New-Logo-in-the-Wiki-tp6319413p6320294.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
SteveC wrote: Instead of taking 8 weeks to have a process, let's treat it as 8 weeks where anyone can help fix these theoretical and technical logo issues. It's right there, anyone can help. So who's going to do it? Steve So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which now needs to be redone. A LITTLE notification of such a major change would have been nice. I wonder how many local groups have only just committed to expenditure that is now out of date even before they receive the product? I do not even recall any discussion that that a change was being planned? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, Lester Caine wrote: So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which now needs to be redone. A LITTLE notification of such a major change would have been nice. I propose this: From now on, we change our logo twice a year - on 1st May and 1st November. That way, nobody can ever claim not to have been notified. (I also propose that we use funny alliterative animal names for each release.) I wonder how many local groups have only just committed to expenditure that is now out of date even before they receive the product? Calm down. Our merchanidse is not out of date just because the logo has been touched up. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Jochen Topf wrote: Don't be so hard on the Strategic Working Group. After months of talks they have actually done something! I think we should celebrate that! After dipping their toes into many important subjects for the future of OSM they have chosen the logo change as the most important strategic change and implemented it! I am glad OSM is not just a bunch of nerds any more, but that we now have a strategy! Yeah! Leave the humour to Fake SteveC, Jochen, he does it so much better than you. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/New-Logo-in-the-Wiki-tp6319413p6320382.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
I assume that the twice a year change and the funny, alliterative animal names are references to Ubuntu Linux. Note that, while each release of Ubuntu has its own name, the Ubuntu logo has remained unchanged for years. I agree that the change to a new OSM logo should have been discussed, or at least announced, well in advance, not done as a surprise to everyone except whatever committee made the change. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki From :mailto:frede...@remote.org Date :Sat Apr 30 16:27:19 America/Chicago 2011 Hi, Lester Caine wrote: So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which now needs to be redone. A LITTLE notification of such a major change would have been nice. I propose this: From now on, we change our logo twice a year - on 1st May and 1st November. That way, nobody can ever claim not to have been notified. (I also propose that we use funny alliterative animal names for each release.) I wonder how many local groups have only just committed to expenditure that is now out of date even before they receive the product? Calm down. Our merchanidse is not out of date just because the logo has been touched up. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Frederik Ramm wrote: Calm down. Our merchanidse is not out of date just because the logo has been touched up. So http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Hi_Vis_Back.jpg is not going to be changed? At least it does say who we are working for, while the new logo is just a fussy picture which says nothing ... Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of those supplying it? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Calm down. Our merchanidse is not out of date just because the logo has been touched up. So http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Hi_Vis_Back.jpg is not going to be changed? At least it does say who we are working for, while the new logo is just a fussy picture which says nothing ... On the jacket is was not the logo. It was an alternative image, they were allready other alternative image/mark/logo and their would be more in the future. OSM is not a monolithe. Of course, it would have been nice the subject was announced weeks before change occurs (for all reason you invoke). But that's not a big deal, nothing would really be obsolete or out of date. The new logo is refreshing the old one. Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of those supplying it? ... -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, Lester Caine wrote: So http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Hi_Vis_Back.jpg is not going to be changed? That vest uses a logo that differs much *more* from the old web page logo that the newly installed logo on the web page does. So if your reasoning is that what is on the web page is somehow the official logo and anything else is obsolete, then these vests must have been obsolete since the first print run. At least it does say who we are working for, while the new logo is just a fussy picture which says nothing ... ... and in that it doesn't differ one iota from the old logo on the web page, in case you have seen it. If you have somehow got the idea that it has been decreed that anyone using the old, wide logo seen on the vest must now switch to the new, quadratic logo seen on the web page - that idea is wrong. Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of those supplying it? I have no idea but if it were my stock, I'd probably re-print the old logo without a second thought. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Since this mailing list is about the new logo now, I'd like to point out some things concerning it that got broken. First of all, wiki logo was a bit different from osm.org: it had a little W in the corner. The new logo's contrast is too low, so the favicon is not recognizable at a glance. And since it is not line-art now, there's an issue with transparency. Could anyone provide a good transparent gif of it? Also, I doubt it will look good on a complex background (because of absence of a thick border) but I did not test it yet. I guess, the old logo should remain for low zooms (favicons, for example). I don't see a problem with using both: a magnifier, a map and binary code are present in all of them, so the corporate identity has not been changed at all. We can polish both of them, and encourage people to do their versions based on the core elements. Changing of the logo was a good move, because it showed us that osm.org page is not constant. For a long time many suggestions to change anything on it were rejected with do it yourself line (and good designers are seldom good programmers), and even when something was done (e.g. OSB on dev.osm.org), it was shelved and forgotten. I hope this improvement will make other, bigger ones to happen. IZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Frederik Ramm wrote: Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of those supplying it? I have no idea but if it were my stock, I'd probably re-print the old logo without a second thought. And just take the hit on the wasted costs out of their own pocket? The point I am trying to make is did anybody changing the logo even consider the other areas that money would have been spent? I see pictures of large banners in addition to the vests which no longer match the current style of the website! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Hi, Lester Caine wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Also how much stock of the current logo version is left on the shelves of those supplying it? I have no idea but if it were my stock, I'd probably re-print the old logo without a second thought. And just take the hit on the wasted costs out of their own pocket? When I said re-print the old logo, I meant continue to use the old logo. The point I am trying to make is did anybody changing the logo even consider the other areas that money would have been spent? I see pictures of large banners in addition to the vests which no longer match the current style of the website! I don't think the change is big enough to make these banners and vests and so on unusable. (It is not unlikely that the new, softer logo would not print so well on many materials anyway.) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: I see pictures of large banners in addition to the vests which no longer match the current style of the website! And I see absolutely no problem with this. The new logo is not at all substantially different from the old one. It is a stylistic tweak, not a redesign. I would happily still buy a tshirt or vest or whatever with the old log on it. In fact, as Ilya pointed out, the new one has a little lower contrast. While it looks better on the website (IMO) I might still prefer the old logo on shirts and such. I see *absolutely* no problem in continuing to use both. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Lester Caine writes: So what is being done for those of us who invested in high visibility vests which are now obsolete? And those who have paid for printing which now needs to be redone. Mellow out, Lester. Conrail hasn't existed in the US since 1999, and there are still locomotives that say Conrail on them. The New York Central hasn't existed since 1968 and there are still bridges that say New York Central on them. The DH has no locomotives or rolling stock, and yet there are still bridges that say DH on the side. Brand names don't become obsolete until they have been forgotten. Have you or anybody else forgotten the old OSM logo? Would you fail to recognize it given familiarity with the new one? Mellow, folks, mellow. Changing the logo isn't going to kill OSM. Changing the license, on the other hand ... -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Shaggy dog story, the whole thing. And you knew it. 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
David Murn writes: On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote: You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. What a load of bollocks. Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or strategy after feedback from this list? The various committees do what they please when they please, that wont change. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed? I was on the Open Source Initiative board until just recently. I had gotten SO TIRED of people who complained that we weren't open enough or transparent enough. Had any of those people EVER come to us and asked if they could help us with anything? N. The future belongs to those who show up, not those who whinge about work that has been done. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 20:30 -0400, Russ Nelson wrote: Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed? For the past 2 years Ive been a secretary of a national non-profit organisation in my country. If we had made decisions and communicate N. d with the group in the way OSMF has done, I can only imagine the outrage (it would be similar to the feelings of many here currently). If I wrote minutes as sparsely and incomplete as the various committees and groups write their minutes, I imagine the 2nd meeting it happened at, Id be asked if I needed help and would basically not have been allowed to get away with sloppy work again. I had gotten SO TIRED of people who complained that we weren't open enough or transparent enough. Had any of those people EVER come to us and asked if they could help us with anything? What do you think would have happened if OSI decided to do something like change their policies or their logo, with no discussion or announcement until someone noticed and asked what happened? The future belongs to those who show up, not those who whinge about work that has been done. Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting isnt as easy as 'just showing up'. Infact, its not even really possible to be invovled by reading the minutes or the meeting notes. Those of us who wish to be involved, join public discussions and forums. Apparently those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer interested in public discussions and forums. Exactly how was anyone to have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo, when the first that 99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asks HERE after its already been decided and changed. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Just a comment, I suspect the discussion we are having about the changes to the logo and license etc are a symptom of something much deeper. I do get the feeling that there is a disconnect between what is being perceived and what the intentions are. There seems to be a perception floating in the air that there is no need to discuss implications and that what we need is strong decision makers. This is not a corporation where you can hire and fire people at will or threaten them with no pay raises. OSM needs to have mappers on side. It has grown very quickly these maybe just growth pains. It could be that those at the top are finding life stressful, certain members have recently changed their employment which can in itself be a stressful time. I'm not certain what the solution is I just hope it isn't complete self-destruct for OSM. Do we have any ways to relieve the pressure? I'm not even sure if we elect directors for a two year term or use other formal methods which have been used in other organizations. Cheerio John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Thanks for your reply. I've fixed your speling and the grammar. and you're punctuation and you have several run-on sentences with tense problems that I am fixed. -russ David Murn writes: On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 20:30 -0400, Russ Nelson wrote: Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed? For the past 2 years I've been a secretary of a national non-profit organisation in my country. If we had made decisions and communicated with the group in the way OSMF has done, I can only imagine the outrage (it would be similar to the feelings of many here currently). If I wrote minutes as sparsely and incompletely as the various committees and groups wrote their minutes, I'd be asked if I needed help. I imagine by the 2nd meeting I would not be allowed to get away with such sloppy work again. I had gotten SO TIRED of people who complained that we weren't open enough or transparent enough. Had any of those people EVER come to us and asked if they could help us with anything? What do you think would have happened if OSI decided to do something like change their policies or their logo? No discussion, nor any announcement until someone noticed and asked what happened. The future belongs to those who show up, not those who whinge about work that has been done. Unfortunately, being involved in an OSMF (or SWG, LWG, DWG, etc) meeting isn't as easy as 'just showing up'. In fact, it's not possible to be involved by reading the minutes or the meeting notes. Those of us who wish to be involved join public discussions and forums. Apparently those who are actually in the positions of power are no longer interested in public discussions and forums. Exactly how was anyone to have 'shown up' to discussions about a new logo? The first that 99.9% of us became aware of the change was when someone asked HERE. This was after it had already been decided and changed. David -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Passive-aggressive, check. Yeah, I'm a BOFH. 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
On Sun, 01 May 2011 10:52:52 +1000 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. Have you ever tried to join a committee and been rebuffed? For the past 2 years Ive been a secretary of a national non-profit organisation in my country. I think that many have been in director positions in non-profit organisations, and are aware of the matters that David has mentioned. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Agreed. On 4/30/2011 7:31 PM, Mikel Maron wrote: David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop. -Mikel *From:* David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au *To:* SteveC st...@asklater.com *Cc:* talk@openstreetmap.org talk@openstreetmap.org *Sent:* Sat, April 30, 2011 6:15:08 PM *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote: You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen. What a load of bollocks. Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or strategy after feedback from this list? The various committees do what they please when they please, that wont change. It appears that the announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and while a small part has been about the logo change, a big part of the discussion is the way that we as a community are treated. If SWG and OSMF feel they have the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the efforts of the community they refuse to consult with. Maybe SWG needs to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway. Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people on this list don't like it. So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like to keep pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries) doesnt like seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+ people) because 5-10 might dislike their idea? Seriously, where did we find this handful of people who cant handle a couple of people disliking their ideas? Apparently watching this discussion. From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the feedback to the logo itself was mostly positive, the displeasure has been with the process used to change things. Sadly this is pretty much on-par with what we're starting to expect from those in power lately. That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas appreciated. My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the public they serve, rather than a bunch of noise. Exactly how strong does OSMF think the project and data would be, if everyone who had an opinion (who wasnt a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned? David On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com mailto:mikel_ma...@yahoo.com: From: Simon Poole si...@poole.ch mailto:si...@poole.ch While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web Design Working Group) SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it. the logo is not an usability topic. Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would be a good start. Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some still are old versions). There is two quotes I want to cite from the log: 1. (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW? (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though 2. (12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have people work on design who... know how to design and build things It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal, it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print material and maps(!)... Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine them, ... Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the same is valid
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Elizabeth Dodd writes: On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop. -Mikel You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it. You actually prove the point. Actually, no. David completely shined on the point of my email, which is why David got a null reply from me. I asked if he had ever tried to join one of the OSMF committies, and his reply was . So fine, my reply was equally devoid of content. And, really really snarky. Snark, snark, snark. Today is snark day. Tomorrow will be boojum day. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
This has not been constructive in the slightest. Inflammatory and untrue. I don't have time for this. Most of us don't. You're making a mockery of the hard work that's gone into this project. Stop. Just stop. From: Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net To: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 9:51:07 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop. -Mikel You get constructive criticism and and so you promptly disregard it. You actually prove the point. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki
Very nice. My favorite is the twitter one. On 4/30/2011 9:41 PM, Andreas Perstinger wrote: On 2011-05-01 00:48, Robert Naylor wrote: Quick animated gif of the change: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif Its not that much of a change - its still very much the OSM logo, as is the numerous other version currently in use. +1. A quick Google search shows some examples of logo changes from well know companies/organizations which didn't fail afterwards. I would consider the current change more like an bigger edit on the map or on the wiki. Much ado about nothing :-) NFL: http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/08/30/shield3-large.jpg Pepsi: http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/pepsilogochange.gif Days Inn: http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/days_inn_logo_change_1.gif Google: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4583055527_3849f4d8f0.jpg Twitter: http://www.brandflakesforbreakfast.com/uploaded_images/twitter-logo-change-709357.jpg Bye, Andreas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Would this tell you or remind you of something? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Logo_World_Green.plain.png Okay, it steals one element from another (very famous) community project. But, it's still very distinct. After all, there is some thing that connects us: The Free WIKI world map, right? Does it show the HUMAN aspect? Of course, there is room for improvement. I drafted it this morning. Feedback? Too bold? Too WIKI? Cheers, Zeptomoon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
2010/5/18 Zeptomoon zeptom...@gmail.com: Would this tell you or remind you of something? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Logo_World_Green.plain.png Okay, it steals one element from another (very famous) community project. But, it's still very distinct. After all, there is some thing that connects us: The Free WIKI world map, right? Does it show the HUMAN aspect? Of course, there is room for improvement. I drafted it this morning. Feedback? Too bold? Too WIKI? I would suggest pieces of puzzle in dark blue and dark green. Current green is blowing into eyes. Otherwise very nice idea, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Zeptomoon wrote: Of course, there is room for improvement. I drafted it this morning. Feedback? Too bold? Too WIKI? I think it has a funny edge, it looks as if the little people are trapped in a spider web. Maybe change the slogan to: OSMF... we'll get you sooner or later! (Obviously half of the people here, and probably 95% of people out there, have difficulties distinguishing between OSMF and OSM; OSMF is certainly not the map but a group of people with the aim of furthering free/open mapping projects, including but not limited to OpenStreetMap.) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Op 18-05-10 14:01, Frederik Ramm schreef: including but not limited to OpenStreetMap.) Interesting that you point it out that way. Because this is exactly not what I've been perceiving when talking to the board members. I actually think 'exclusively' might be a better representation of real life. (Though I agree that it should be: not limited to) Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkvyhTIACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn1J/ACfSgNYReil6azZd0C33S4lWrWe +8wAn0OkeOtU7X3wYJkKHhx8isun25tK =vX/r -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Stefan de Konink wrote: including but not limited to OpenStreetMap.) Interesting that you point it out that way. Because this is exactly not what I've been perceiving when talking to the board members. I actually think 'exclusively' might be a better representation of real life. That's because OpenStreetMap is the only thing they are concerned with in real life; all of them have been involved with OSM before they came to OSMF. I think that if you could prove to OSMF that backing a non-OSM project in some part of the world would actually do more for the goal of free and open maps than backing OSM in that same area - perhaps because a community already exists or so - then OSMF would have to do that. Or change their articles of association ;-) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Zeptomoon zeptom...@gmail.com wrote: Would this tell you or remind you of something? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Logo_World_Green.plain.png Cool idea. Would need some tweaking to make it easier on the eyes. The problem is that it looks nasty at the smaller scales, and it doesn't look dynamic (this feedback from a designer friend of mine). Anyone wanna try combining the strengths of http://mray.de/sites/default/files/logoproposal_big.html and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OSM_Logo_World_Green.plain.png? E.g. adapt the 3x3 grid and nice shading, etc. from Robert's proposal, but replace the flag with a central puzzle piece? Just an idea... IANAD :P ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Roy Wallace wrote: I really like Robert's contribution. But I guess I understand, now, that some people think it falls short on story-telling. I think my grief with the suggestion is that not only does it not tell the OSM story but IMHO tells a wrong story. I think if it were like one of those 70s logos, just OSM written in a funny font, I'd probably still find it extremely bland but at least it would not suggest that we're just another POI collection project, or just another Wikimapia or so. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 17 May 2010 07:48, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Roy Wallace wrote: I really like Robert's contribution. But I guess I understand, now, that some people think it falls short on story-telling. I think my grief with the suggestion is that not only does it not tell the OSM story but IMHO tells a wrong story. I think if it were like one of those 70s logos, just OSM written in a funny font, I'd probably still find it extremely bland but at least it would not suggest that we're just another POI collection project, or just another Wikimapia or so. This is my deep concern too. It is very important that we are *not* like all the other projects. When someone explained why that 0s and 1s were in the logo because they are the data behind the map, Robert said that was a bit lame in today's digital age. I had to stand up away from the computer at that point, clearly he didn't know or hadn't understood why the project exists. Feel free to blame bad design/UI for not getting to an explanation page, some say our openstreetmap.org page shouldn't have a slippy map at all, and I can *almost* agree. I would possibly take my comment back that Robert's logo looks like a clip art (I think I was the first to say it), about 90% of people consider that an insult including me, and I see it can very much be a matter of opinion. But if I remember correctly it was in response to Robert saying the current logo looked like a clip art. For the record my opinion thinks it is like a clip art for a golf course. When we talk about clip art and the proposed logo in the same message, I think of those strange stick figures you get in Microsoft clip art (someone might remind me of their name). Robert, in regards to asking for permission to create the logo first. No you don't need it to create something, and it is very good for you to do so. However talking about a logo with people first is helpful, you could have discovered an OSM Foundation logo redesign was already in progress, and you might have gained some knowledge about the image OSM people want to convey (through branding generally, which includes logos). -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Frederik Ramm wrote: I think my grief with the suggestion is that not only does it not tell the OSM story but IMHO tells a wrong story. I think if it were like one of those 70s logos, just OSM written in a funny font, I'd probably still find it extremely bland but at least it would not suggest that we're just another POI collection project, or just another Wikimapia or so. How about replacing the flag with a pencil drawing a line across the map bit? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hello all, Frederik Ramm typed: SNIP You mean that to keep pace with Waze and Google Map Maker, we should simply drop the libertarian bullshit and become just another company with top-down decision making and a marketing department that does whatever seems best? Just because others manage abuse their community by taking their work and giving them nothing in return, save perhaps for a few stars in a ranking list, we should try to pull off the same? SteveC typed: For fscks sake Frederik, I didn't say anything about dropping any of our good stuff like community or data model or open sourceness. It's really simple - they have a nicer website, they have nicer tools, they have more users than we do (3 times as many) in a fraction of the time and they're far, far better at creating and managing a community of users that we're only starting to get to grips with. All you do is scare them away. I do not feel I am part of 'a community' but specifically of the OpenStreetMap community. Many communities are different. Regards, -- signature.asc Description: Αυτό το σημείο του μηνύματος είναι ψηφιακά υπογεγραμμ ένο ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/17/2010 05:47 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/5/16 SteveCst...@asklater.com: As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference material or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the current logo: * has too many colours * doesn't scale * is too busy * isn't brandable to a colour scheme This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts. while this is all true, it doesn't imply that to design a new logo we must completely throw the current design away. I think that the old logo is quite good at pointing out what OSM is about (for a part, sparing out the collaborative aspect, but still the data and not map or poi-aspect is important). I would expect from a new logo to be 1 individual and unique 2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo 3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM 4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo (ideally the new logo would be some progress of the old one) the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with OSM. I'll use that post as a hook for going into detail concerning my opinion as a designer (excuse the amount of text, but I'm kind of challenged to respond to critical voices): All the things Steve mentioned are both important and true. And I designed my logo to meet those, and a few other standards: It is scalabe, can be colorized, isn't busy (a subset of scalable) and does not use many colors. 1. You correctly add the uniqueness as an important attribute. If you find something that looks too similar please speak up - this could be an absolute no-go no matter what the current fuzz about the logo is. This is very important. 2. Then you mention that technical and graphical requirements should be met, and acknowledge that it does. Thanks! This really is important, too. 3. Then you go on with story / symbolization of an idea and I strongly disagree. There *may* be some special cases where I might not disagree, but the OSM project certainly isn't in that category. A story has to be told, it has the dimension of time and involves much vocabulary. While this must not be inherently bad, it clearly is a recipe for failure in all the other important domains like scalability, colorization and other stuff. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by symbolization of an idea, and I'm even more uncertain what that means in a visual term. This alone drives me to the conclusion that every attempt to do this will fail, not only because there are probably thousands of ideas and symbols, but also thousands of ways to interpret them. I understand and respect the wish for what you want to accomplish here, but my experience says efforts in that direction are in vein. At the same time I don't want so say it is WRONG to have such qualities, it is just that I prefer not to count them as a quality I think is worth working on. So I would positively surprised if somebody tries and achieves this, but I have my reasons not to start thinking or working in that direction with this logo. 4. You're kind of right here, too: possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo... This is absolutely true since it hurts the recognition and acceptance of the Project if it changes the logo all the time. You want to avoid that, and evolve slowly to meet new expectations or fashion or whatever. But you say possibly, and I see no possibility since there are just too much elements that make this logo not work. We enter the real of interpretation again, and this is to a degree subjective to my ideas but: - What does a magnifying glass in a logo mean? Is the map too small? is the project just about searching or finding? Did you ever use one of those devices with OSM - or at all (other than burning inscets with it when you were small)? Nevertheless I also tried out to fiddle with it and maybe come up with a good design that at least works as a bridge to the old logo - because that's a value, too after all. but it did not work for me because the glass is always an element hiding everything else and adding a new layer to a situation where you want to be simple and clean. - What about the 0s and 1s - is this a binary map kind of the new stylish wrtistwatches? or does it want to tell me hey I'm not analog any more - cool what!?.., or is it even a map in binary code only - and the sourcecode is not available? Talking of symbols: binary does not even have to be 0s and 1s, it is just the only convention that works at that scale. But having typographic elements in an illustrative logo is a bad idea for a good logo. - Then there is the paper map, actually a quite good symbol that lends itself for a logo (and I did many designs in that direction). So I see no real problem here per se. BUT: If you choose to stick to the paper map you have to get rid of the little details, wich essentially leaves you with a plain paper. Now you could fold
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Robert Martinez wrote: Now, could everybody still in doubt please do a simple google image search for good logo and check for logos that tell a story! I bet you'll hardly find any. Robert, I think you have produced a good logo. Not an outstanding one, like (to quote two of my favourites) British Waterways' evocative bridge-and-bulrushes (http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/images/logo_bw.gif), or Factory Records' wonderfully stylised 1980s effort (http://seandodson.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/factory_records.jpg). But a perfectly decent logo. But please, please stop patronising people by assuming they know nothing about design. OpenStreetMap is a more catholic community than you might think: it's not just all 18-year old Linux geeks (not that there's anything wrong with 18-year old Linux geeks). There _are_ people here who are qualified to have an opinion on your logo. I'm a magazine editor. Part of my job is assessing the work our designers come up with, and saying yes, this is good, or no, this doesn't work, or hm, ok, but this aspect needs reworking - like when we redesigned our entire magazine about six months ago. There are some OSM contributors who work at design studios; I know of at least one occasional contributor who has retired after many years in print design. Not everyone is a stereotypical hacker. So when you say: So what I offer also is a reduction in quantity, while the old logo has a map with folds, a magnifying glass with reflections, a digital representation, forrest, streets and a lake on the map. So I partly understand you feel kind of robbed, because my logo has only a pin on a map. remember that I, and others, don't object to a simple logo. A simple logo works brilliantly in the two examples I cited above. But yours is the wrong simple logo. It's a good logo, but it's not a good logo for OSM. I'm sure you could design a great logo for OSM - it's just this one isn't it. Having a pin on a map is not what OSM is about. I was going to be facetious and say you might as well have a frog on a map, but actually a frog might be better. There are hundreds of sites that are about placing pins on (Google) maps. We're not one of them. Simple logos can tell a story. The British Waterways logo conjures associations of hump-backed bridges (which every British motorist, and therefore 90% of the target audience, has driven across) - a simple, authentic industrial heritage - and of nature. Perfect for evoking the canals. The Factory Records logo conjures associations of 20th century industrial design and the 1968 riots - a brilliant evocation of the Factory attitude and its ventures such as the Hacienda. These are the right stories to tell. The pin logo conjures associations of Platial (RIP) and Frappr (RIP) and Wikimapia (still-born), and those aren't the right associations for OSM. It's nothing personal nor an aspersion on your design skills. Our designer at work is great but I still sometimes send pages back to him saying this doesn't work. Actually one such design did have pushpins on but that's coincidence. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/new-logo-tp5046672p5066463.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
2010/5/17 Robert Martinez m...@mray.de: right. that would be the a term. You don't have to be a designer to use the desaturate button. The challange is to make it work afterwards. The current logo does not work monochromatic, mine does. have you ever seen a monochromatic version of the current logo? IMHO that could be a task to show skills: redesign the current logo for monochromatic display (and I'm not talking about rasterizing oder desaturating, just in case ...). this is not be read as long story, it is about symbology. If stories and symbols have really nothing in common. OK, you misunderstood me: they have something in common, but a logo mustn't be a comic strip. So do the examples you provide: the DB logo works by symbolizing an abstract shape (maybe with associations of rising stock markets) to itself. it is a rising graph (be it stockmarket, economy or the bank's value itself), something that goes up (positive) plus it is a percent-symbol (the money the bank will take from you in my interpretation, they'll probably tell you the story somehow differently saying it symbolizes the percents your money will grow or sth like that). Windows uses an illustration of the semantic meaning of its name. yes, and ubuntu uses three people in a circle (abstract but clearly about community, social). What's so difficult to understand about this? Yourself are using a flag in a joystick / on a map. Not that it looks completely bad, but it IMHO doesn't represent OSM or the project, idea and comunity behind it. - And as many have pointed out here: it does look like a logo for a POI-collecting project or a golf course. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Richard Fairhurst wrote: I'm a magazine editor. Part of my job is assessing the work our designers come up with, [..] Not everyone is a stereotypical hacker. I am a garment decorator, sign maker and also do something similar to book cover design. But yours is the wrong simple logo. It's a good logo, but it's not a good logo for OSM. I'm sure you could design a great logo for OSM - it's just this one isn't it. I completely agree with this statement. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Robert Martinez wrote: Now, could everybody still in doubt please do a simple google image search for good logo and check for logos that tell a story! I bet you'll hardly find any. Robert, I think you have produced a good logo. Not an outstanding one, like (to quote two of my favourites) British Waterways' evocative bridge-and-bulrushes (http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/images/logo_bw.gif), or Factory Records' wonderfully stylised 1980s effort (http://seandodson.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/factory_records.jpg). But a perfectly decent logo. Interesting... I think those logos are crappy. But hey, let's take your point and run with it. So we have bridge-and-bulrushes for British Waterways', and a factory-and-wave for Factory Records. Do we really want map-and-magnifying-glass-and-ones-and-zeros for OSM? Or can we break that down/simplify that a bit, so designers have some more room to move? Maybe that would help us to find some common ground between those emphasising the importance of story vs those emphasising graphical/technical/appearance. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
2010/5/18 SteveC st...@asklater.com: You couldn't sort of extrapolate forward from a GIS system to OSM. You couldn't extrapolate from crappy Nokia phones forward to the iPhone (without hindsight, of course). I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. You can't compare a logo (an abstract graphic whose main task is high recognition value, make us identificable and visually memorable and create sympathy) to a complex tecnical system with completely different requirements. Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something, but that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally because there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at. that's fine with me, I wasn't suggesting minor changes like turning it red or change the font, I think one could restyle it and change it fundamentally in some way whilst still maintaining some continuity with the current one (not necessarily with the style and colours, but more regarding the idea behind it). I agree if there is an appealing idea to represent us in a form that is incompatible with the current logo but nevertheless better, we should consider taking it - only I haven't seen this so far. Why not extend the OSMF-logo-competition and get some different proposals for an OSM-logo as well to vote on? Btw.: there are lots of good designs here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Logo and we originally wanted to vote till Dec. 2009. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, 18 May 2010, Roy Wallace wrote: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:49 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something, but that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally because there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at. I think the point is to try to understand what it is that (some) people like about the current logo. I get the impression it's about story-telling. I.e. some people feel the current logo does this well, and they don't want to lose that. If we want to please everyone, then designers need to really *hear* that feedback, and try again. The current logo expresses looking closely at the world and finding it composed of 0 and 1 or expressed as binary ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Am 15.05.2010 22:15, schrieb Robert Martinez: This isn't a first draft - maybe there is room for changes if decision makers like an OSM design team (or similar) decide to use my contribution. p.s.: I think it is naive to think that it is possible to create a logo that everyone likes. Thu May 13 17:32:36 BST 2010 paul youlten wrote: Is there an OSM identity design brief or a decision making process for designers to look at? I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. Greetings, Frieder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/16/2010 02:40 PM, Frieder Ferlemann wrote: I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. Greetings, Frieder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Hello Frieder, I have mixed feelings about this table and the wikipage: * it is a good instrument to guide non-designer people to make better decisions (instead of having endless discussions with a crappy logo as a result) * it is NOT an instrument that can claim to be a recipe for the best logo, every designer would weight different things and include/exclude certain things for valid reasons. I for example would have reservations about the equal importance of the Vision parts: idea of a map, world-wide, freedom, collaboration, versatility, growth, reliability, huge, participation, eye-catcher, not user group specific, not specific to shop owners + car navigation, internationalism * it unfolds its full potential if there are many good contributions that qualify for a good logo I'm profoundly sure that the involvement of non-designers in this issue should be to vote on something like a top 3 logo list (not be defined by: the best three there are but by: 3 good logos)! And the problem is: there are way too few submissions that would score high enough in your table. So in my eyes it boils down to one solution to this problem (as well as branding and design issues in general): There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence, and I think this table is a bad workaround for that at best. My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! You won't get satisfying results in the long run if there are no such team. In the meantime I suggest (with grinding teeth) using the table to get a result. Robert Martinez ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Frieder Ferlemann wrote: I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. What logo are we talking about? I understand that Robert's submission was for an OSM logo, while the page you have now edited is about the OSMF logo. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Robert, Robert Martinez wrote: There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence [...] My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, or respect for, how the project works? There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you understand so little? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On May 16, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Robert, Robert Martinez wrote: There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence [...] My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, or respect for, how the project works? There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you understand so little? He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess. My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really want another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design, usability or aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to making the map call C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of looking like Windows 3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a design czar, it would have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data entered, project visibility, user happiness... And yes I know what I wrote on the wiki about JFDI back in 1987 or whatever. But we have these walls that we didn't have then. If you want to get a sweeping design done it will take a herculean effort because there's so much fight on this list on even whether good design is a good thing, or whether more users is a good thing, or you have to write everything the 'right' way... and you, Frederik jump on the guy because he doesn't know much about the project? That's actually a pretty good thing. He doesn't know he has to be friends with Tom to get something deployed, he doesn't know he'll have to fight Matt being defensive about his logo, he doesn't know all the political shit that is getting in the way of moving forward in a meaningful way. If he did know all this, I suspect he would go and do something useful with his life instead of wasting it here. It's not even that any of the above is bad - it's great that the map call is now constant memory or whatever (thanks to matt?), it's awesome that Tom is guardian to a set of stable servers and he holds that key so judiciously, but we have to realise too what barriers this throws up to innovation, and try and get out of the way when necessary. So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten old and crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads screwed on. Nobody means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of the list sometimes and people don't like change. If you want some real fun go read the legal list archives and look how long it takes to make anything happen. And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze is kicking our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze writing essays on why design is bad and we don't need new users. Oh, I guess I do want this fight again. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/16/2010 06:35 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Robert, Robert Martinez wrote: There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence [...] My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, or respect for, how the project works? Did I really offend you by assuming that there are certain aspects of the project that get decided not by pure democracy? Aren't there any people good at special fields like handling tile rendering, or traffic balancing or editor development etc.? I must admit I'm not an active contributor in any of those kinds - but I must say I'm a bit offended myself that you assume I know nothing about the project and act respectless, just because I think it is a good Idea to have some people that are specialized in design. I'm offering a contribution after all! Please respect that, too. There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you understand so little? To be honest: my first impression of the current logo drove me to the guess that there is no design team, so that's not big news for me. (Btw: if you read my initial mail - why didn't you make that clear earlier?) You seem to be involved enough to help me out here: In case there really IS NO hierarchy whatsoever other than Steve Coast and the rest - there is no problem! If the community should decide: fine! I already agreed on using the logo-rating-table (if there really is no better solution). Or maybe I can even come to Girona, too, and share my thoughts there (but that's not the complete community that decides and it is not sure I can get there) But If there IS actually a decision hierarchy - who is deciding: when (or if) to announce a logo contest? who decides on the guidelines? who decides when there are enough submissions? who is the jury (mailing list - wiki - a web-poll - voting in Girona - ...)? Always glad to hear other voices on the issue, too. Bye Robert Martinez ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi Frederik, Am 16.05.2010 18:33, schrieb Frederik Ramm: I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. What logo are we talking about? I understand that Robert's submission was for an OSM logo, while the page you have now edited is about the OSMF logo. I meant to contribute to Robert's submission for an OSM logo. The link given in: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-May/050188.html on my first uneducated view seemed to show relevant context, so I added the table there. Also it seemed polite because I picked up the items from the user Kscahefer. I'll happily move it elsewhere. If need arises I also have a very capable /dev/null here. Seems to take data at a rate of more than 1 GB/sec and is not full yet. Kidding aside I like the idea of a wiki because (opposed to mail or forums) it tends to focus discussion because technically there is a single document being worked on. (there are of course numerous examples that using a wiki is no guarantee for consensus) Robert Martinez wrote: I for example would have reservations about the equal importance of the Vision parts: [..] I have too. Nor are the criteria likely complete (or orthogonal). I have no stakes in the decision other than that it should be fair and does not absorb much unneeded voluntary work. Greetings, Frieder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
