Templates and the Address book

[Tom Plunket]

Is there a way to make templates expand an address found in the
address book?

Say I have this entry in my book named "mom" which expands to
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]".  Is there a way to make the template expand
%TO="mom"?  (Specifically useful for mailing lists.)

thanks,
-tom!

-- 
Tom Plunket
3D Studio/video game geek
The Bat! user since January 15, 2000

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Tom Plunket]

SL> Maybe in your own little dillusional world, not reality, boy.

Well!  Steve on a good day.  Welcome to the list, Steve.

*plonk*

-tom!

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hi, all,

Steve Lamb wrote...

SL> If we all
SL> had our own little pet options in the client so we could eliminate a keystroke
SL> here and a keystroke there then the damned client would be psychic, wouldn't
SL> it.  THAT IS AN INOBTAINABLE GOAL.  If your fingers are so cramped, go
SL> elsewhere where whining pricks like yourselve can bitch and moan to one
SL> another about how the software doesn't suck you off quite the right way.

   
   I still want it. ^-^;

-- 
Yours,
 John De Hoog, Tokyo
 http://dehoog.org
 The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
 Windows NT 4 Build 1381



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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello John,


On  Saturday, February 12, 2000  at  15:51:00 GMT +0900 (which was 10:51 PM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:

> It's the logical thing for people who want it that way, but other
> programs at least give you the option of opening a folder at a new
> message, not an old one you've already read once.

 I don't really see the utility in doing that.  The way I have my mail
 set up, unread messages generally do not come into folders with a lot
 of other messages in them.  This means that if I go into a folder,
 there is usually a reason why the last message that was open is still
 there.

 For example, the mail from this list is filtered into a TBUDL folder.
 I have a subfolder for any archiving that I want to do.  Thus, if I
 have a read message in the TBUDL folder, usually that means I haven't
 taken appropriate action with it.  The appropriate action might be to
 read it, respond, archive or delete.

 When it comes to navigation, TB does exactly what you tell it to do.
 This means that often when I'm reading a message in the preview pane,
 the focus might be on the folder list. Then I hit the down arrow by
 accident, but to fix it, all I have to do is move back to the TBUDL
 folder. No problem, the message is still open, and still at the same
 spot. Nice and easy. If TB followed what you suggested, then I would
 have a lot more keystrokes than just one to recover from my mistake.
 For your purpose, you *never* have to hit more than two key
 combinations. Seems like a small price to pay for real convenience.

> It doesn't even give you a means of finding the next unread message
> in a different folder directly, because when you jump to a new
> folder, you'll be at an already read message.

 This was a bit of a bother when I first got TB, but now that I'm used
 to this system, I wouldn't change it too quickly.  I wouldn't mind
 seeing a keystroke that would go to the next unread message even
 across folders, but as I understand it, this will be offered in the
 much touted version 2.

> Sorry, Steve, I don't see how you can so dogmatically say
> this is "the logical thing to do."

 It is the logical thing to do, might not be the *practical* thing to
 do for every one.  But when I navigate to a folder, when did I tell
 TB to open the next unread message?  I didn't.  I told it to open the
 folder.  So it should open the folder at the same place I had it open
 before.  This might not be *practical* for *you*, but as I've
 outlined above, this saves me lots of headaches when I make a small
 mistake, or when I want to cross check across folders and accounts.

> Many people like to read new messages when they go to a folder, not
> old ones.

 I like to do both.  Otherwise what's the point of keeping old
 messages in that folder?

> If that option is not available now, it ought to be made available
> in a new version.

 I disagree, but thanks anyway for the suggestion.


-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hi, all,

Januk Aggarwal wrote...

>> Many people like to read new messages when they go to a folder, not
>> old ones.

JA>  I like to do both.  Otherwise what's the point of keeping old
JA>  messages in that folder?

   
   Thank you for a calm and reasoned response.

  The biggest problem with the status quo occurs every morning when I
  first get to my mail. There are typically more than a hundred
  messages waiting to be read, scattered among different folders. If I
  use the Mail Ticker, I find myself jumping back and forth among
  different discussions in different folders, because the Mail Ticker
  simply streams incoming messages in the order of their arrival.

  I would rather go through a folder at a time, reading the new
  messages in each mailing list, folder by folder. This can be done,
  but it either requires mousing, or using an odd combination of
  keystrokes: Tab to change to the folder tree, arrow keys to move to
  the next folder (all the while highlighting messages I don't want to
  see in each folder), then Tab to get back to the message list, and
  finally that oddball CTRL + ] to find the next unread message.
  Multiply that by each folder that has new articles.

  During the day as new messages come in, I use the Mail Ticker for
  most folders and leave the less important ones off it, so this is
  not as big a problem. Still, getting to the less important articles
  again takes all those weird keystrokes. Contrast this with Netscape
  Communicator, Datula, Becky, EdMax, and other clients which let you
  jump to an unread message in any folder from any location simply by
  pressing the space bar or N key or a user-defined key.

  This is not just a matter of saving a couple of strokes, it saves
  hundreds of strokes each day. Different strokes for different folks
  -- all I'm asking is for that option, not a mandatory change.

  **In fact, a keystroke that takes you to the next unread message
  across folders/accounts does not have to nullify the standard
  behavior of opening a folder at the last read article. Both can
  exist at the same time.**

-- 
Yours,
 John De Hoog, Tokyo
 http://dehoog.org
 The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
 Windows NT 4 Build 1381



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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Tom Plunket]

JDH>   I would rather go through a folder at a time, reading the new
JDH>   messages in each mailing list, folder by folder. This can be done,
JDH>   but it either requires mousing, or using an odd combination of
JDH>   keystrokes: Tab to change to the folder tree, arrow keys to move to
JDH>   the next folder (all the while highlighting messages I don't want to
JDH>   see in each folder), then Tab to get back to the message list, and
JDH>   finally that oddball CTRL + ] to find the next unread message.
JDH>   Multiply that by each folder that has new articles.

As Steve pointed out in his usual irrational way, the way TB! handles
navigation is entirely daft, and we're all hoping that easy
cross-folder navigation comes in v2.  I long for a multi-account Agent
every day (that is art in navigation, I tell you all)...  Ten times a
day I wish I had a "go to previous message" since I spaz out and hit
the wrong key and all of the sudden the message I wanted to read is no
longer in the message pane...  

JDH>   **In fact, a keystroke that takes you to the next unread message
JDH>   across folders/accounts does not have to nullify the standard
JDH>   behavior of opening a folder at the last read article. Both can
JDH>   exist at the same time.**

Join me in crossing fingers and praying.  ;)  Would the addition of
single-key navigation make the auto-jump-to-next-unread moot for you?

-tom!

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Re: Templates and the Address book

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello,


On  Saturday, February 12, 2000  at  23:58:12 GMT -0800 (which was 11:58 PM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:

> Is there a way to make templates expand an address found in the
> address book?

 I don't think so, but I haven't done much testing with this one.

> Say I have this entry in my book named "mom" which expands to
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".  Is there a way to make the template expand
> %TO="mom"?

 For one address, why wouldn't you type out the whole thing for the
 Template? (For lists, see my response below). Having said that, if
 'mom' is the handle for the address book entry, then TB will expand
 it as soon as you switch focus to the body of your message.  Here TB
 is inconsistent when dealing with lists and individuals.  Try this
 sequence to prove my point.

  1. Make a template with %TO="mom" , where 'mom' is the handle of an
 individual in your address book.
  2. Make a new message with the template.
  3. Select the To field and press tab.  The name expands to the full
 address.
  4. Now repeat but change 'mom' to the handle of a group in your
 address book, i.e. %To="List"
 When you expand this one as in step 3, TB displays 'List '
 That doesn't tell me much more than just 'List' did.

>  (Specifically useful for mailing lists.)

 I don't know if this answers your question, but for sending mail to a
 group in your address book, use,

 %TO="Happy "
  ^
 Replace Happy with your Group's name

 Alternately you could use,

 %TO="happy"
  ^
Replace happy with your Group's handle

 Unfortunately, when I was sending out the message, I never saw the
 addresses to which I was sending the message. Perhaps this is the
 problem you are describing?  But one of the messages was bounced back
 to me, and all the addresses were in the To field.  So I send a
 message to my Family group, my Template has %To="Family "
 Now Family  is in the To field.

  Where in mail delivery cycle: Status of To field
   1. Editing message-->  Family 
   2. Outbox -->  Family 
   3. Sent folder-->  Family 
   4. Recipients' Inbox  -->  [EMAIL PROTECTED],...,[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Ideally, I would think that the change should occur at (1) since the
 editor is supposed to be a WYSIWYG editor, and in most respects it
 is faithful to that end, except here.  Having said that, if TB is not
 processing 'Family ' until the message is sent, so that the most
 recent version of the list is included, then the change should at
 least occur at (3), although preferably at (2).

 Looking at the address book properties, there is an option 'Hide all
 items if not explicitly selected.'  That was unchecked for the test
 above.  So my argument that the change should happen at (1) makes
 even more sense to me.

 Wow, this turned out to be a lot longer than I anticipated.  Hope it
 helps clear things up a little. :)

-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Tom,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  01:30:29 GMT -0800 (which was 1:30 AM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:

> [snip unnecessary insult], the way TB! handles
> navigation is entirely daft,

 I disagree. In terms of navigation, TB does exactly what you tell it
 to do. Even if that is not what you meant to tell it, but that is a
 operator error. There is no way for a program to fix all of those,
 and remain useful.

> and we're all hoping that easy cross-folder navigation comes in v2.

 The only way that cross-folder navigation could be any easier is if
 they add the "jump to next unread message in any folder" feature. I
 believe RIT has said they are adding it to version 2.

> I long for a multi-account Agent
> every day (that is art in navigation, I tell you all)...

 What is special about it? I haven't used Agent to any great extent. I
 only used it for *very* limited news reading. Please explain, so we
 can discuss the relative merits of some of Agent's navigational
 features.

> Ten times a day I wish I had a "go to previous message" since I spaz
> out and hit the wrong key and all of the sudden the message I wanted
> to read is no longer in the message pane... 

 I could see that being very useful.  That and an undo command for
 when I accidentally move a message to the wrong folder (including trash).

> Join me in crossing fingers and praying.  ;)  Would the addition of
> single-key navigation make the auto-jump-to-next-unread moot for you?

 I should think so.  Why do you need the duplication?  TB should do
 what one tells it to do. So if I tell TB to open a folder, TB should
 not assume that I want to go to any message other than the one that
 was last open.  However, if I use the "goto next unread message in
 any folder" command, then I am telling TB to find the next unread
 message, open the folder in which it resides, and select said
 message. In other words, TB is doing exactly what I told it to do.


-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Tom Plunket wrote...

TP> Would the addition of single-key navigation make the
TP> auto-jump-to-next-unread moot for you?

Yes, if you mean what I think you mean. And thanks for reminding
me that all this began with Forte Agent (a program I still use
every day for news). There's a program that pioneered one-key
navigation, by a careful process that involved listening to the
users and implementing their wishes in a most rational way. The
only mystery is why other programs (like MS Outlook/OE) don't
adopt a similar navigation interface.

One improvement that a few programs have made on the Agent
navigation scheme is to start the search back from the top of the
tree when no more unread messages exist below the current
location. Other than that, it's perfect. Just emulate it!
   

-- 
Yours,
 John De Hoog, Tokyo
 http://dehoog.org
 The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
 Windows NT 4 Build 1381

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 01:58:22AM -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:
>  I disagree. In terms of navigation, TB does exactly what you tell it
>  to do. Even if that is not what you meant to tell it, but that is a
>  operator error. There is no way for a program to fix all of those,
>  and remain useful.

Uhm, no.  When it comes to the keyboard I don't think that CNTL-SHIFT-F4
is a valid keystroke.  TB! is chock full of them which is why I rely on the
mouse more than anything to use TB!.

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello John,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  17:44:57 GMT +0900 (which was 12:44 AM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


>Thank you for a calm and reasoned response.

 No problem, I try to post close to the same caliber as most of the
 people in this group. It is a high standard to match.

>   The biggest problem with the status quo occurs every morning when I
>   first get to my mail. There are typically more than a hundred
>   messages waiting to be read, scattered among different folders. If I
>   use the Mail Ticker, I find myself jumping back and forth among
>   different discussions in different folders, because the Mail Ticker
>   simply streams incoming messages in the order of their arrival.

 Do you know that if you use the Mail Ticker to access the virtual
 folder behind it, you can display the folder that the message is in?
 For example, the Mail Ticker shows up,

  1. you double click on it, and it brings up one of the messages.
  2. Select View -> Message List
  3. Select View -> Columns and add Folder.
  4. Enjoy!

 I haven't used the Mail Ticker much, but I'm starting to realize that
 I've been missing out on a good thing.

>   I would rather go through a folder at a time, reading the new
>   messages in each mailing list, folder by folder.

 That is why I set up folders. :)

>   This can be done,
>   but it either requires mousing, or using an odd combination of
>   keystrokes: Tab to change to the folder tree, arrow keys to move to
>   the next folder (all the while highlighting messages I don't want to
>   see in each folder), then Tab to get back to the message list, and
>   finally that oddball CTRL + ] to find the next unread message.
>   Multiply that by each folder that has new articles.

 True, but how could it be much less complicated and still do what you
 want every time? (Ignoring the 'skip to next unread message in any
 folder' option for the moment.)

>   During the day as new messages come in, I use the Mail Ticker for
>   most folders and leave the less important ones off it, so this is
>   not as big a problem.

 I personally don't mind using the mouse, now the only thing that TB
 needs to implement is the customizable tool bars.  That way I can use
 either just the mouse, or just the keyboard to read mail.  I don't
 mind that option.  But right now, you do need to use both to be at
 maximal efficiency.

>   Still, getting to the less important articles
>   again takes all those weird keystrokes. Contrast this with Netscape
>   Communicator, Datula, Becky, EdMax, and other clients which let you
>   jump to an unread message in any folder from any location simply by
>   pressing the space bar or N key or a user-defined key.

 Admittedly this is a feature that TB needs to implement, but I
 thought you were suggesting that TB is awkward to navigate between
 folders.  I know Netscape is not any better, are any of the others
 any better if you want to go to a folder with *no* new messages, or
 where you want to go to a read message?

>   This is not just a matter of saving a couple of strokes, it saves
>   hundreds of strokes each day.

 Sure, but you have to balance saving strokes with becoming
 incomprehensible.  Just like when I write the year down.  I could
 write just 00 and I'm sure nobody would get confused about what year
 I'm talking about, but it gets confusing to someone who is unfamiliar
 with the quirks of my system.  Not to mention the fact that I have a
 tendency to forget things every now and then.

>   -- all I'm asking is for that option, not a mandatory change.

 Which is why we're here discussing it. :)

>   **In fact, a keystroke that takes you to the next unread message
>   across folders/accounts does not have to nullify the standard
>   behavior of opening a folder at the last read article. Both can
>   exist at the same time.**

 Right.  I alluded to this point in my message, although maybe you
 missed it.  A keystroke that takes you to the next unread message
 across folders/accounts is a different debate than the one we're
 having.  With that option, TB does what you tell it to do.  But if
 you say that TB should open a folder at the next unread message, then
 I disagree because you are not *explicitly* telling TB to do that.
 All you are telling TB is to open the folder, beyond that it should
 not make any assumptions.  Therefore the logical action is to open
 the message that was last open in that folder.  Clear?

 These are two separate issues, and don't think that since I oppose
 one, that I oppose the other. :)

-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Steve,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  02:16:28 GMT -0800 (which was 2:16 AM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


> Uhm, no.  When it comes to the keyboard I don't think that CNTL-SHIFT-F4
> is a valid keystroke.

 But that is a question of whether or not you can speak TB's language.
 I don't claim to be fluent, but in general it only does what you tell
 it to do.  If you go to Quebec and ask for directions, you should
 expect that they might be in French.  Does that make them invalid?
 No, you need to learn the language.  Do I think that it is an
 intuitive language?  No, it could be a heck of a lot simpler.

> TB! is chock full of them which is why I rely on the
> mouse more than anything to use TB!.

 I would rely on the mouse a lot more if some of the simple things
 were implemented better.  The biggest reason I don't use the mouse
 very much is because there is no mouse equivalent to "jump to next
 unread message."  Personally, other than typing a response, I prefer
 the mouse to keyboard almost all the time in Windows.


-- 
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 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 02:38:35AM -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:
>  But that is a question of whether or not you can speak TB's language.

No, it isn't.  That is a question of 3+ simultanious strokes to do
something.  Because TB! tries to make keys for every pet little pissant
function people want they end up being crammed in illogical places or places
where it is completely worthless to be.  You try hitting CNTL-SHIFT-F4
compared to something else?  Double modifiers are *BAD*

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Steve,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  02:45:01 GMT -0800 (which was 2:45 AM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


> On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 02:38:35AM -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:
>>  But that is a question of whether or not you can speak TB's language.

> No, it isn't.  That is a question of 3+ simultanious strokes to do
> something.  Because TB! tries to make keys for every pet little pissant
> function people want they end up being crammed in illogical places or places
> where it is completely worthless to be.  You try hitting CNTL-SHIFT-F4
> compared to something else?  Double modifiers are *BAD*


JA> Do I think that it is an intuitive language? No, it could be a
JA> heck of a lot simpler.

 I'll keep reposting that until you understand what it says. :)


-- 
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 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 02:52:46AM -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:
> > No, it isn't.  That is a question of 3+ simultanious strokes to do
> > something.  Because TB! tries to make keys for every pet little pissant
> > function people want they end up being crammed in illogical places or places
> > where it is completely worthless to be.  You try hitting CNTL-SHIFT-F4
> > compared to something else?  Double modifiers are *BAD*
 
 
> JA> Do I think that it is an intuitive language? No, it could be a
> JA> heck of a lot simpler.
 
>  I'll keep reposting that until you understand what it says. :)

> > No, it isn't.  That is a question of 3+ simultanious strokes to do
> > something.  Because TB! tries to make keys for every pet little pissant
> > function people want they end up being crammed in illogical places or places
> > where it is completely worthless to be.  You try hitting CNTL-SHIFT-F4
> > compared to something else?  Double modifiers are *BAD*

Fine, I'll just write a script to repost my portion until you die since
clearly you don't understand it.
 
-- 
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hi, all,

Januk Aggarwal wrote...

JA>  Do you know that if you use the Mail Ticker to access the virtual
JA>  folder behind it, you can display the folder that the message is in?
JA>  For example, the Mail Ticker shows up,

JA>   1. you double click on it, and it brings up one of the messages.
JA>   2. Select View -> Message List
JA>   3. Select View -> Columns and add Folder.
JA>   4. Enjoy!

   Yes, that's a good and useful feature; but here again there's a
   problem for keyboard users. First you  to the Ticker and
   open a message. Then after you open a folder as above, the message
   list no longer contains messages other than the ones for that
   folder. So to open a different folder, it's back to the Ticker with
   the . Now repeat for every folder.

   The Agent way, that's the one built on a huge consensus, with years
   of feedback, and yet with flexibility to allow for a wide variety
   of approaches. Why is it necessary to reinvent the wheel with each
   new program that comes along?

   Interestingly, the Japanese programs Datula and EdMax both
   implement the Agent way, pretty much, even though neither author
   really spent much time with Agent. It just came about naturally,
   because they decided to allow for complete keyboard-based
   operation.
   

-- 
Yours,
 John De Hoog, Tokyo
 http://dehoog.org
 The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
 Windows NT 4 Build 1381



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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Tom Plunket]

>> ... the way TB! handles navigation is entirely daft...

JA>  I disagree. In terms of navigation, TB does exactly what you tell it
JA>  to do. Even if that is not what you meant to tell it, but that is a
JA>  operator error. There is no way for a program to fix all of those,
JA>  and remain useful.

It does what you tell it to, but telling it what to do is often a
non-trivial exercise.  Why is next Ctrl-]?  That makes NO sense.  What
about all of the Fn key mappings?  YUCK.

>> and we're all hoping that easy cross-folder navigation comes in v2.

JA>  The only way that cross-folder navigation could be any easier is if
JA>  they add the "jump to next unread message in any folder" feature. I
JA>  believe RIT has said they are adding it to version 2.

Well, perhaps.  There are things that could make it easier though...

>> I long for a multi-account Agent every day (that is art in
>> navigation, I tell you all)...

JA>  What is special about it?

Well, one thing that's really handy is the single-key read.  However,
if I want to jump to the message list, I can also hit '2'.  If I want
to head over to the group/folder list, I hit '1'.  To the message
pane, I hit '3'.  Now that seems crazy perhaps, it did to me when I
first heard about it.  However, now that I know it's there, I don't
need to know which pane has focus to decide if I need to Tab or
Shift-Tab, I can just jump directly to the pane I want without
thought.  This is one of those "saves a microsecond" kind of things,
but it makes the UI that much more friendly.  I don't need to hit Tab
and see if I'm in the right pane, I just hit '1'.  Then up/down
through the groups/folders, and ding-dong, I'm set.

Plus, I've never figured out how to get anything useful out of
quicksearch, Agent implements the Windows standard of Ctrl-F to open a
find window, and I can type in alt.porno.sexy.horses.with.dresses and
bam I'm right there.

>> Ten times a day I wish I had a "go to previous message" since I spaz
>> out and hit the wrong key and all of the sudden the message I wanted
>> to read is no longer in the message pane... 

JA>  I could see that being very useful.  That and an undo command for
JA>  when I accidentally move a message to the wrong folder (including trash).

Yep, Backspace goes to the previously-read message, and I don't know
if there's a limit (you can keep backspacing all day).
Shift-Backspace goes back to the previously-previously read message,
in other words, undoing your backspacing, one step at a time.  REALLY
handy, I must say.

Ctrl-F also works as expected, btw, in the message list pane too, so
you can actually find what you want.  Then there's Ctrl-G, global
search, which will search through all message bodies for a string, if
you so desire (although, as you may imagine, that can take a while).
Ctrl-G also allows you to set individual folders that you want to go
into, I believe...

>> Join me in crossing fingers and praying.  ;)  Would the addition of
>> single-key navigation make the auto-jump-to-next-unread moot for you?

JA>  I should think so.  Why do you need the duplication?

Yeah, I imagine that would help John out a lot.

JA>  However, if I use the "goto next unread message in any folder"
JA>  command, then I am telling TB to find the next unread message,
JA>  open the folder in which it resides, and select said message.

Keep in mind that there need not be a "goto next in any folder"
command specifically, merely an option that enables cross-folder
navigation of "Next Unread".

Another Agent bonus?  They "just" implemented Unlimited Undo/Redo in
the editor.  Oh, that's handy, especially after NO UNDO.  :)

-tom!

-- 
Hopin' this said *something* useful, [EMAIL PROTECTED] out.

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 08:05:10PM +0900, John De Hoog wrote:
>The Agent way, that's the one built on a huge consensus, with years
>of feedback, and yet with flexibility to allow for a wide variety
>of approaches. Why is it necessary to reinvent the wheel with each
>new program that comes along?

If that is the case, why does Agent suck as a newsreader?

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?" From Steve 
Lamb:

>>The Agent way, that's the one built on a huge consensus, with years
>>of feedback, and yet with flexibility to allow for a wide variety
>>of approaches. Why is it necessary to reinvent the wheel with each
>>new program that comes along?

SL> If that is the case, why does Agent suck as a newsreader?

 Ah, here's one I can answer the same reason Rap and Country music
sucks.  Different strokes for different folks...  One man's trash is
another man's treasure... The same reason boxed wine exists... If we
all had the same tastes we'd all be driving the same car, married to
the same woman, trying to get to the same restaurant. How bad would
that be?!?

-- 
- Nick

Nick Danger's Complimentary Curse <(©¿©)>:
May 50,000 inbred infomercial hosts denounce imperialism on your birthday.

Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build
1998  

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:44:57 +0900, John De Hoog wrote:

{...snip...}

>  This is not just a matter of saving a couple of strokes, it saves
>   hundreds of strokes each day. Different strokes for different folks
>   -- all I'm asking is for that option, not a mandatory change.

I agree with you but I deal with this in a different way from
you. I too agree that TB!'s way of returning you to the last open
message is the correct default behaviour. In fact it doesn't seem to
do this reliably especially if you were to close and reopen TB! which
is annoying. :)

I use my Inbox to only contain new sundry messages. As soon as
some messages are read, they are filtered to their respective folders.
As soon as others are replied to, they are filtered to their
respective folders. Going through the Inbox is therefore just with the
use of the spacebar.

I use a single folder for unread TB! related mail whether it
be TBUDL or TBBETA. Manual read and automatic replied filters keep
this folder empty so that only new mail is kept there.

My other mailing list has a new mail folder as well and I use
a read filter to move messages to the archive folder which is a
sub-folder of the new messages folder.

This all seems a  hassle but it's a set and forget thing. It's
not something I do everyday and it certainly avoids a lot of
keystrokes and maintains good folder behaviour in terms of returning
you to the last message and not a new message. :)


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Re: Templates and the Address book

[Allie Martin]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:58:12 -0800, Tom Plunket wrote:

> Is there a way to make templates expand an address found in the
> address book?

> Say I have this entry in my book named "mom" which expands to
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".  Is there a way to make the template expand
> %TO="mom"?  (Specifically useful for mailing lists.)

Why would you need that? A template is a set and forget sort
of thing. It avoids your having to retype stuff repeatedly. You are
asking to be able to type "mom" once and forget instead of type
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and forget it. Copy and paste could make you not
have to type it at all.  Seems really unnecessary to me.

The %QINCLUDE macro with Quick templates already provides a
function as you wish but you'll end up using more keystrokes to set it
up in the template anyway.

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:38:35 -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>  But that is a question of whether or not you can speak TB's language.
>  I don't claim to be fluent, but in general it only does what you tell
>  it to do.  If you go to Quebec and ask for directions, you should
>  expect that they might be in French.  Does that make them invalid?
>  No, you need to learn the language.  Do I think that it is an
>  intuitive language?  No, it could be a heck of a lot simpler.

Speaking of learning TB!'s language, the editor with
'autoformat' enabled is another instance of having to learn the
language and you in fact do if you leave it enabled for a while. When
you learn it you realised that it's really very nicely optimised for
plain text e-mail messaging.

Moving back and forth from an editor or word processor with
the standard cursor movements limitations etc. is no problem
whatsoever. I guess it's like speaking two languages fluently.

TB!'s keyboard navigation is another thing for me. I resist
learning it because I simply *KNOW* that there is no reason whatsoever
for it to be so cranky and awkward. There would have been no problems
if the most used functions were given easily used (single key)
keyboard shortcuts but the worst move of them all was to give the
'quick search' facility 26 keyboard shortcuts that could have been
used for other things. :(

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:59:43 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> Fine, I'll just write a script to repost my portion until you
> die since clearly you don't understand it.

ROTFLMAO!!

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:45:01 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>>  But that is a question of whether or not you can speak TB's
>>  language.

> No, it isn't.  That is a question of 3+ simultanious strokes to
> do something.  Because TB! tries to make keys for every pet little
> pissant function people want they end up being crammed in illogical
> places or places where it is completely worthless to be.  You try
> hitting CNTL-SHIFT-F4 compared to something else?  Double modifiers
> are *BAD*

No. The reason why double modifiers are so common is simply
because 26 of the keyboard shortcuts went to one function that you
don't use and that's the quicksearch facility. :(

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:04:36 -0800, Tom Plunket wrote:

> Well, one thing that's really handy is the single-key read.  However,
> if I want to jump to the message list, I can also hit '2'.  If I want
> to head over to the group/folder list, I hit '1'.  To the message
> pane, I hit '3'.  Now that seems crazy perhaps, it did to me when I
> first heard about it.

It's not so crazy when you hit 'Z' which switches you to the
zoomed look where the message list, message view and subscribe/folder
list are tabbed and each take up the whole window. The subscribed
groups/folder window is invoked with '1' because it's the first tabbed
window and the message list is invoked with '2' because it's the
second tabbed window etc.

This makes me realise that quick search in TB! is given 36!
and not 26! keyboard shortcuts to invoke it instead of one, for
example, CTRL+Q anyone? After hitting Ctrl+Q, then you type your
search string anyone??? :)

>   However, now that I know it's there, I don't need to know which
> pane has focus to decide if I need to Tab or Shift-Tab, I can just
> jump directly to the pane I want without thought.  This is one of
> those "saves a microsecond" kind of things, but it makes the UI that
> much more friendly.  I don't need to hit Tab and see if I'm in the
> right pane, I just hit '1'.  Then up/down through the
> groups/folders, and ding-dong, I'm set.

N for next unread message

R for reply to message

F to forward message

Up/down arrow for cursor independent scrolling simply because the
Agent developers decided to make the scroll-lock key useable. Have the
scroll-lock activated in the message body view window and your
scrolling with just the arrow keys. There are many other single key
shortcuts but hardly any single key shortcuts in TB! because 

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 09:18:15AM -0500, Allie Martin wrote:
> No. The reason why double modifiers are so common is simply
> because 26 of the keyboard shortcuts went to one function that you
> don't use and that's the quicksearch facility. :(

> > Because TB! tries to make keys for every pet little pissant function
> > people want they end up being crammed in illogical places or places where
> > it is completely worthless to be.

Like I said, because TB! tries to make keys for every pissant little
function people want.  Quicksearch falls into the "pissant litte function"
catagory.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: Header question

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Feb 00, at 23:44, Tom Plunket wrote
about "Header question":

> I'm on this mailing list that sets Resent-Reply-To to the list address
> instead of setting Reply-To at all. Is this appropriate? If so, TB!
> doesn't honor it. Should it? Certainly fits into the idea of not
> munging the headers in the case that the Reply-To was already set...

>From the RFC822 (HTH;-)):

 4.2.  FORWARDING

  Some systems permit mail recipients to  forward  a  message,
 retaining  the original headers, by adding some new fields.  This
 standard supports such a service, through the "Resent-" prefix to
 field names.

  Whenever the string "Resent-" begins a field name, the field
 has  the  same  semantics as a field whose name does not have the
 prefix.  However, the message is assumed to have  been  forwarded
 by  an original recipient who attached the "Resent-" field.  This
 new field is treated as being more recent  than  the  equivalent,
 original  field.   For  example, the "Resent-From", indicates the
 person that forwarded the message, whereas the "From" field indi-
 cates the original author.

  Use of such precedence  information  depends  upon  partici-
 pants'  communication needs.  For example, this standard does not
 dictate when a "Resent-From:" address should receive replies,  in
 lieu of sending them to the "From:" address.

 Note:  In general, the "Resent-" fields should be treated as con-
taining  a  set  of information that is independent of the
set of original fields.  Information for  one  set  should
not  automatically be taken from the other.  The interpre-
tation of multiple "Resent-" fields, of the same type,  is
undefined.

  In the remainder of this specification, occurrence of  legal
 "Resent-"  fields  are treated identically with the occurrence of
 fields whose names do not contain this prefix.


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall not be
  disappointed.

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:09:57 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> If that is the case, why does Agent suck as a newsreader?

Nick, I just loved your answer to this one. :)) But I'd like
to add that Agent *is* a decent newsreader which doesn't suck. It
however lacks two important functions and these are multiple server
per single instance and score filtering of messages.

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:36:54 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> Like I said, because TB! tries to make keys for every pissant little
> function people want.  Quicksearch falls into the "pissant litte function"
> catagory.

Again, no. It's a useful function. It avoids having to open
another applet with advanced search functions to simply search for a
message in the folder that's open. However, the reasoning behind why
they killed 36 potential keyboard shortcut keys instead of one, in
it's honour, is beyond me. :(

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Re[2]: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Jason Ellis]

Hello Steve,

You are a true asshole, aren't you. I, for one, agree with John - it's
very annoying to have my e-mail program not automatically show new
e-mail messages to me. I have my new e-mail set to stay new until I
actually select it as having been read - I much prefer it since I will
almost always read the e-mail immediately but generally won't respond
to it until later.

Every other e-mail program I have used has the option of automatically
showing the new messages. While this shortcoming in the Bat isn't
enough to make me stop using it, I do wish it would be corrected.

So just lighten up. Other people's opinions do matter, and the
universe does not revolve around Steve Lamb, no matter what you may
think about it.

> On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 04:35:35PM +0900, John De Hoog wrote:
>>I don't need your sympathy, let alone your "when while little
>>pricks" blathering, but I am asking for an option that's available
>>on many more mail clients than I care to mention and should be
>>available on The Bat!

> Maybe in your own little dillusional world, not reality, boy.  If we all
> had our own little pet options in the client so we could eliminate a keystroke
> here and a keystroke there then the damned client would be psychic, wouldn't
> it.  THAT IS AN INOBTAINABLE GOAL.  If your fingers are so cramped, go
> elsewhere where whining pricks like yourselve can bitch and moan to one
> another about how the software doesn't suck you off quite the right way.




-- 
Jason Ellis, CEO
Hosting Solutions, Inc.
www.windowswebhost.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Jast]

Morning Tom Plunket,

> Besides the fact that Steve proves himself again to be an empathetic
> and helpful person, I agree whole heartedly with him.  I keep unread
> messages around 'cause I don't want to read them right now.

 Me too! I've come to appreciate this behaviour of going to the last used
 message more than once, especially with my mail management approach
 (random shotgun)

> If TB! went to them, I'd have to read them RIGHT NOW or figure out what
> keystroke, if there is one, allows me to mark it unread à la Agent's 'X'
> keystroke (which toggles a message's read state).

 Ctrl+U, fwiw...
 Ctrl+M for marking it read btw.
 And yes, I want single-key mappings too. And why not a toggle? oh well...



-- 
.. Jast .
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :with 1.41 Beta/3
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AIM jasticle:..



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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:16:28 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> When it comes to the keyboard I don't think that CNTL-SHIFT-F4
> is a valid keystroke.

What does that do???

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Paula Ford]

On Sunday, February 13, 2000, Januk Aggarwal wrote:


>  Right.  I alluded to this point in my message, although maybe you
>  missed it.  A keystroke that takes you to the next unread message
>  across folders/accounts is a different debate than the one we're
>  having.  With that option, TB does what you tell it to do.  But if
>  you say that TB should open a folder at the next unread message, then
>  I disagree because you are not *explicitly* telling TB to do that.
>  All you are telling TB is to open the folder, beyond that it should
>  not make any assumptions.  Therefore the logical action is to open
>  the message that was last open in that folder.  Clear?

I don't see that this issue is about what is "logical" as much as simply
varying user preferences. What is "logical" in a _e-mail_ program about
assuming that the user wants to return to a message already read? What
assumptions are made by the developers in making this choice, if it even
was a choice? TB's here defaults to behavior that I think is counter to
what most users would prefer in a mailer. It seems more "logical" to me
to assume that once a user has read a message, they'd prefer much more
often than not to go to the next unread message. In the end, this is
what the developer of a general-purpose program, like a mailer, has to
base decisions on - what is "logical" for _most_ of their hoped-for
users.

-- 
Paula Ford
The Bat! 1.38e (reg)
Windows 95 4.0 Build 950

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Steve Lamb

[Paula Ford]

Hello Owners,

I ask you to please review Steve Lamb's latests "contributions" to
the TBUDL, particularly in the thread "Why not highlighting the newest
message in the folder?"

Not only does Mr. Lamb provoke flame wars, which involve personal
insults and language that I feel has no place on a mailing list like
this one, but he sets a tone for the list that is sure to intimidate, if
not scare off, all but the hardiest of people or those numb to the ways
of Usenet or worse, those that actually enjoy that type of nonsense. I
personally know of people who have left the list, because they are
grown-ups who simply don't have time for this kind of Internet BS.

Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
message" said nothing further. If you review Mr. Lamb's postings to the
list, you'll find that that is a pattern, no doubt intended by himself.
If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
nasty and resorts to childish namecalling. I'd also like to point out
that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any assistance. In most Internet
venues, such behavior would classify him as a troll. Morevover, many of
his posts to the list explicitly violate the list rules and guidelines.

Some long-time users of the list have developed an amused tolerance for
Mr. Lamb and his ways; others have him in their kill filter. But, I ask
you to consider the overall effect that he has on the list and,
particularly on newcomers, as he doesn't hesitate to turn his vitriole
on an innocent first-time poster.

I assume that we all have the best interest of RIT Labs and TB at heart.
A small-time program, like TB, can benefit greatly from creating a sense
of community among its users, and this is probably the greatest service
TBUDL provides - or could provide. Mr. Lamb, unfortunately, undermines
that sense of community. In fact, I feel that as long as Mr. Lamb is
left to his own devices, TBUDL is likely doing TB more harm than good.

Trolls deserve the death penalty, IMO, especially when they persist in
behavior, despite warnings. But, perhaps you could banish him to the TB
beta list, where he can argue all he wants about "new" features with a
more limited group of long-time users.

I would appreciate your letting me know if you're not going to do
anything about Mr. Lamb, because I find it painful to watch how he
treats people and will have to leave the list. It was rather nice when
he was on vacation, but now my tolerance of him is even less after the
refreshing, but all too brief, respite.

-- 
Paula Ford
The Bat! 1.38e (reg)
Windows 95 4.0 Build 950

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hi, all,

Paula Ford wrote...

PF> It seems more "logical" to me to assume that once a user has read
PF> a message, they'd prefer much more often than not to go to the
PF> next unread message. In the end, this is what the developer of a
PF> general-purpose program, like a mailer, has to base decisions
PF> on...

Or else support alternate behaviors in important cases like this,
which is what many of the better programs do: a simple check box
to decide whether the first-seen message in a folder is the first
unread or last read one.  Obviously we all have different styles,
so catering just to one style is not enough.
   

-- 
Yours,
 John De Hoog, Tokyo
 http://dehoog.org
 The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
 Windows NT 4 Build 1381

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 8:32:21 AM, Allie wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:16:28 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>> When it comes to the keyboard I don't think that CNTL-SHIFT-F4
>> is a valid keystroke.

> What does that do???

Hell if I know, I was actually thinking of CNTL-SHIFT-F5, Reply-To-All in
a message window.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 12:46:25 PM, Paula wrote:
> I don't see that this issue is about what is "logical" as much as simply
> varying user preferences.

No.  It is, again, the program making the assumption that you want to do
something.  A program shouldn't do something on the UI side until told to do
so.  Just because you go into a folder doesn't mean you:

a: want to read a message at all
b: want to move the pointer at all
c: even wanted to be there (miskey) at all

It is not logical to /assume/ you're going to do anything since there are
several options presented to you.  By placing you right where you were and
letting you decide it avoids conflict between what you wanted to do this time
and what it might have thought you wanted to do.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 1:50:48 PM, Paula wrote:
> If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
> nasty and resorts to childish namecalling.

Oh come off it, Paula.  I respond in the tone given, nothing more.  Don't
like it, tough.

> Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
> message" said nothing further.

I'll also point out to her majesty the queen of TBUDL that my response to
the original poster was not nasty nor contained namecalling.  Further my
second response in the thread was in kind to the tone set by the user in
question.

> I'd also like to point out that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any
> assistance.

Much more than you ever do, that much is certain.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Larry Barrett]

Hello Paula,

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 6:50:48 PM, you wrote:

> Hello Owners,

> I ask you to please review Steve Lamb's latests "contributions" to
> the TBUDL, particularly in the thread "Why not highlighting the newest
> message in the folder?"

> Not only does Mr. Lamb provoke flame wars, which involve personal
> insults and language that I feel has no place on a mailing list like
> this one, but he sets a tone for the list that is sure to intimidate, if
> not scare off, all but the hardiest of people or those numb to the ways
> of Usenet or worse, those that actually enjoy that type of nonsense. I
> personally know of people who have left the list, because they are
> grown-ups who simply don't have time for this kind of Internet BS.

> Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
> message" said nothing further. If you review Mr. Lamb's postings to the
> list, you'll find that that is a pattern, no doubt intended by himself.
> If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
> nasty and resorts to childish namecalling. I'd also like to point out
> that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any assistance. In most Internet
> venues, such behavior would classify him as a troll. Morevover, many of
> his posts to the list explicitly violate the list rules and guidelines.

> Some long-time users of the list have developed an amused tolerance for
> Mr. Lamb and his ways; others have him in their kill filter. But, I ask
> you to consider the overall effect that he has on the list and,
> particularly on newcomers, as he doesn't hesitate to turn his vitriole
> on an innocent first-time poster.

> I assume that we all have the best interest of RIT Labs and TB at heart.
> A small-time program, like TB, can benefit greatly from creating a sense
> of community among its users, and this is probably the greatest service
> TBUDL provides - or could provide. Mr. Lamb, unfortunately, undermines
> that sense of community. In fact, I feel that as long as Mr. Lamb is
> left to his own devices, TBUDL is likely doing TB more harm than good.

> Trolls deserve the death penalty, IMO, especially when they persist in
> behavior, despite warnings. But, perhaps you could banish him to the TB
> beta list, where he can argue all he wants about "new" features with a
> more limited group of long-time users.

> I would appreciate your letting me know if you're not going to do
> anything about Mr. Lamb, because I find it painful to watch how he
> treats people and will have to leave the list. It was rather nice when
> he was on vacation, but now my tolerance of him is even less after the
> refreshing, but all too brief, respite.


Dear Paula (and others),

Thank you for your timely comments. I wrote the following letter
*before* your reply.  As I am one of those who have quit the list
several times because of Mr. Lamb, I decided to send this as was
written.
__

Greetings,

I'm still trying to decide who is worse, Steve Lamb, or the rest of us
who  tolerate his foul-mouthed stupidity. It's amazing how uncouth and
just  plain  idiotic  some  people  can  be - hiding behind a computer
screen.  This guy is sickening, and I sure wish some of you would wake
up  and take notice. I don't consider him a great asset to this list -
to  the  contrary  -  I  consider him a detriment to an otherwise fine
list. Many of us (and there are many) love The Bat! for our own little
inexperienced  layman  reasons,  and  I  have  a strong hunch that our
support  for  this  software  goes  a lot deeper than this big-mouthed
blowhard  who  is pretty good at spitting on every opinion that didn't
originate with him. I cringe when I read someone complimenting Lamb on
*anything*  he  says.  The  attitude  seems  to  be, "Oh he's rude and
uncouth  and  arrogant,  but  he  has  s much good to contribute."
Hogwash!  - I'm not about to reach down to the bottom of a garbage can
just because there's a sandwich there! In my opinion, he long ago lost
the  right  to  be  heard.  I  personally  am  not  impressed with how
intelligent and experienced one might be - if that person doesn't know
how  to  express his opinion in a civilized way - I don't need or want
his  opinion.  Life  is  too  short  to  put  up  with  that  kind  of
foolishness.  The  folks  at RIT Labs seem to have gotten along pretty
well  before Steve Lamb came on the scene, and I'm absolutely positive
they can continue to build great software without his kind of input. I
can tolerate plenty of difference of opinion - but when someone lowers
himself  to  the  place of calling someone else a "whining prick" just
because  they  dare  to  differ  with  him  - that person is less than
worthless  to me! It appears to me that he could use some professional
help.  Steve, please do The Bat! a favor and go find someplace else to
vent  your  wrath  &  frustration!  You'll drive away more prospec

Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:46:25 -0500, Paula Ford wrote:

> I don't see that this issue is about what is "logical" as much as
> simply varying user preferences. What is "logical" in a _e-mail_
> program about assuming that the user wants to return to a message
> already read?

At present TB! doesn't take you back to a message that you
already read perse. It takes you back to where you last were. If it
does otherwise, it will be assuming that you wish to go elsewhere.
Putting you where you were before you left the folder is logical.
Everything is as you left it. The cursor is where you left it. The
message highlighted is as you left it. I fail to see the assumption
made in that. :))

> What assumptions are made by the developers in making this choice,
> if it even was a choice? TB's here defaults to behavior that I think
> is counter to what most users would prefer in a mailer. It seems
> more "logical" to me to assume that once a user has read a message,
> they'd prefer much more often than not to go to the next unread
> message. In the end, this is what the developer of a general-purpose
> program, like a mailer, has to base decisions on - what is "logical"
> for _most_ of their hoped-for users.

I don't think that it's a good thing to hardwire into TB! as
it were, behaviour based on an assumption since the majority of users
do operate on the particular assumption. When assumptions are being
dealt with in an automated fashion, it absolutely *must* be made
optional and not be the default.

-- 
 CU, Allie ...
Using The Bat! v1.39 *:* Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
---
** People say I'm apathetic, but I don't care. **

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:13:20 -0300, Larry Barrett wrote:

> Thank you for your timely comments. I wrote the following letter
> *before* your reply.  As I am one of those who have quit the list
> several times because of Mr. Lamb, I decided to send this as was
> written.

You should never let a fellow subscriber deprive you of the
benefits of this list. This means that he wins and you lose. I'll
never understand why someone would unsubscribe and deprive him or
herself of a useful resource on the account of a fellow subscriber. :(

Create a kill-filter and by all means send your complaint to
the list-owner. I, however, implore you not to unsubscribe on that
account. The posters here, unless otherwise explicitly stated, are
here on the same terms that you are. Their writings in no way
represent the views of Ritlabs or those of any other members of this
list's as yours does. The list may be silent about him because
kill-filters are in use or others as myself have grown immune to it
all or have developed the ability to ignore the unfavourable content.

-- 
 CU, Allie ...
Using The Bat! v1.39 *:* Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
---
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:42:59 +0900, John De Hoog wrote:

> Or else support alternate behaviors in important cases like
  ^^^
I like that  'alternate behaviours'.
Another good example is whether or not to open folders with threads
collapsed or expanded. :)

> this, which is what many of the better programs do: a simple
> check box to decide whether the first-seen message in a folder
> is the first unread or last read one.  Obviously we all have
> different styles, so catering just to one style is not enough.

Granted. :)

-- 
 CU, Allie ...
Using The Bat! v1.39 *:* Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
---
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Re[2]: Steve Lamb

[Larry Barrett]

Hello Allie,

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 8:28:07 PM, you wrote:

The list may be silent about him because
> kill-filters are in use or others as myself have grown immune to it

Well, I personally can't grow immune to such foolishness.  When I finish
this, I will un-subscribe for good.  If Mr. Lamb's kind of action is
"normal" behavior for you, it certainly isn't for me. I still think
it's a shame that a great list has been ruined by one person.  For
your information, more people than you can imagine *have* left this
list because of him.

Larry Barrett

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RE: Steve Lamb

[Nick Rout]

Yeah I agree, in fact I am so sick of the crap on this list that I am resigning, so if 
Mr Lamb wants to flame me in return, I won't get it!

BTW I have asked a question on the list, no-one ever answered, what a waste of damn 
time.

Nick
-Original Message-
From:   Paula Ford [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Monday, 14 February 2000 10:51
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Steve Lamb

Hello Owners,

I ask you to please review Steve Lamb's latests "contributions" to
the TBUDL, particularly in the thread "Why not highlighting the newest
message in the folder?"

Not only does Mr. Lamb provoke flame wars, which involve personal
insults and language that I feel has no place on a mailing list like
this one, but he sets a tone for the list that is sure to intimidate, if
not scare off, all but the hardiest of people or those numb to the ways
of Usenet or worse, those that actually enjoy that type of nonsense. I
personally know of people who have left the list, because they are
grown-ups who simply don't have time for this kind of Internet BS.

Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
message" said nothing further. If you review Mr. Lamb's postings to the
list, you'll find that that is a pattern, no doubt intended by himself.
If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
nasty and resorts to childish namecalling. I'd also like to point out
that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any assistance. In most Internet
venues, such behavior would classify him as a troll. Morevover, many of
his posts to the list explicitly violate the list rules and guidelines.

Some long-time users of the list have developed an amused tolerance for
Mr. Lamb and his ways; others have him in their kill filter. But, I ask
you to consider the overall effect that he has on the list and,
particularly on newcomers, as he doesn't hesitate to turn his vitriole
on an innocent first-time poster.

I assume that we all have the best interest of RIT Labs and TB at heart.
A small-time program, like TB, can benefit greatly from creating a sense
of community among its users, and this is probably the greatest service
TBUDL provides - or could provide. Mr. Lamb, unfortunately, undermines
that sense of community. In fact, I feel that as long as Mr. Lamb is
left to his own devices, TBUDL is likely doing TB more harm than good.

Trolls deserve the death penalty, IMO, especially when they persist in
behavior, despite warnings. But, perhaps you could banish him to the TB
beta list, where he can argue all he wants about "new" features with a
more limited group of long-time users.

I would appreciate your letting me know if you're not going to do
anything about Mr. Lamb, because I find it painful to watch how he
treats people and will have to leave the list. It was rather nice when
he was on vacation, but now my tolerance of him is even less after the
refreshing, but all too brief, respite.

-- 
Paula Ford
The Bat! 1.38e (reg)
Windows 95 4.0 Build 950

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "Steve Lamb" From Larry Barrett & Paula Ford:

Color me Libertarian, but as obnoxious as Steve can be put me down on
the side of free speech. I prefer to do my own censorship via
filtering. Count me out of any witch hunts ya'll are trying to get
together. If you think he has nothing to offer filter him out. Easy,
painless, and affects only yourself.

-- 
- Nick

Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build
1998  

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Re: Digest (02/14/2000 06:00) (#2000-386)

[Derek Cedillo]

Hey list,

I no longer participate in the list because of the flame wars
instigated by Steve Lamb.

I peruse the digest on occasion, but he has certainly turned me off of
the program.

His attitude of "If you don't like it, go elsewhere", certainly must
be affecting RIT Labs' sales.

Best Regards,
Derek  

In response to your message fromSunday, February 13, 2000, 6:01:05 PM:

list> (#2000-386) - Topics This Issue:

list>  1) Steve Lamb
list>  2) Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

list> --

list> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:50:48 -0500
list> From: Paula Ford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
list> Subject: Steve Lamb

list> Hello Owners,

list> I ask you to please review Steve Lamb's latests "contributions" to
list> the TBUDL, particularly in the thread "Why not highlighting the newest
list> message in the folder?"

list> Not only does Mr. Lamb provoke flame wars, which involve personal
list> insults and language that I feel has no place on a mailing list like
list> this one, but he sets a tone for the list that is sure to intimidate, if
list> not scare off, all but the hardiest of people or those numb to the ways
list> of Usenet or worse, those that actually enjoy that type of nonsense. I
list> personally know of people who have left the list, because they are
list> grown-ups who simply don't have time for this kind of Internet BS.

list> Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
list> message" said nothing further. If you review Mr. Lamb's postings to the
list> list, you'll find that that is a pattern, no doubt intended by himself.
list> If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
list> nasty and resorts to childish namecalling. I'd also like to point out
list> that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any assistance. In most Internet
list> venues, such behavior would classify him as a troll. Morevover, many of
list> his posts to the list explicitly violate the list rules and guidelines.

list> Some long-time users of the list have developed an amused tolerance for
list> Mr. Lamb and his ways; others have him in their kill filter. But, I ask
list> you to consider the overall effect that he has on the list and,
list> particularly on newcomers, as he doesn't hesitate to turn his vitriole
list> on an innocent first-time poster.

list> I assume that we all have the best interest of RIT Labs and TB at heart.
list> A small-time program, like TB, can benefit greatly from creating a sense
list> of community among its users, and this is probably the greatest service
list> TBUDL provides - or could provide. Mr. Lamb, unfortunately, undermines
list> that sense of community. In fact, I feel that as long as Mr. Lamb is
list> left to his own devices, TBUDL is likely doing TB more harm than good.

list> Trolls deserve the death penalty, IMO, especially when they persist in
list> behavior, despite warnings. But, perhaps you could banish him to the TB
list> beta list, where he can argue all he wants about "new" features with a
list> more limited group of long-time users.

list> I would appreciate your letting me know if you're not going to do
list> anything about Mr. Lamb, because I find it painful to watch how he
list> treats people and will have to leave the list. It was rather nice when
list> he was on vacation, but now my tolerance of him is even less after the
list> refreshing, but all too brief, respite.


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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[tracer]

Hello Allie Martin,
On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:19:42  -0500 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, February 14, 2000, 6:19:42 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Allie Martin wrote:


> I don't think that it's a good thing to hardwire into TB! as
> it were, behaviour based on an assumption since the majority of users
> do operate on the particular assumption. When assumptions are being
> dealt with in an automated fashion, it absolutely *must* be made
> optional and not be the default.

Shouldnt take much effort anyway to make this and some other settings
an option.
But if you mail houskeeping works properly and if as I do myself mail
is stored in received order per folder, the whole problem is les
important as where I was and/or want to be very likely is in either
the last read msg or the one above and to me that difference/one
keystroke is ignorable...



Best regards,
 
tracer
-- 

Using theBAT 1.41 Beta/3 with Windows 98
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am using FireTalk: 321338
ICQ: on request 
Website: www.phuketcomputers.com
Our special website hosting/mailservers are now operational



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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hello, tracer,

On Monday, February 14, 2000, you wrote:

t> But if you mail houskeeping works properly and if as I do myself mail
t> is stored in received order per folder, the whole problem is les
t> important as where I was and/or want to be very likely is in either
t> the last read msg or the one above and to me that difference/one
t> keystroke is ignorable...

   But that's only one way of ordering mail. In a mailing list like
   this, suppose you opt for a threaded view, and messages arrive for
   different threads. They will be scattered through the message list.
   The only way to get to each one is to open the folder, open the
   threads, and find each unread article manually or with that awkward
   CTRL + ]. This is not a good interface if you like to thread
   discussions.

-- 
Yours,
  John De Hoog, Tokyo
   http://dehoog.org



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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Allie,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  09:16:07 GMT  -0500 (which was 6:16 AM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


> On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:38:35 -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:

> Moving back and forth from an editor or word processor with
> the standard cursor movements limitations etc. is no problem
> whatsoever. I guess it's like speaking two languages fluently.

 Which was my point to Steve.  It might be hard to see the logic
 behind one or the other, but that doesn't make either of them bad.
 If one doesn't like TB's keyboard interface, they should go use a
 different product and not screw up the one we've got here.

> TB!'s keyboard navigation is another thing for me. I resist
> learning it because I simply *KNOW* that there is no reason whatsoever
> for it to be so cranky and awkward.

 It is awkward for me, considering I use a standard English keyboard,
 and so I'm not used to double modifiers and the such.  But for people
 who are used to languages with many more symbols than English, is it
 really that bad?  The keyboard mappings need to be better documented,
 but that's a given, and the list that's on the website is getting to
 be not too bad.

> There would have been no problems
> if the most used functions were given easily used (single key)
> keyboard shortcuts but the worst move of them all was to give the
> 'quick search' facility 26 keyboard shortcuts that could have been
> used for other things. :(

 I agree wholeheartedly, but I understand the logic.  Consider for a
 moment that to access Quick Search, one had to press Q or Shift-Q, or
 something.  Then what's the real difference between a 'Quick Search'
 and a regular search?  Personally I prefer using the regular search
 more, so I wouldn't mind if the Quick Search feature went the way of
 the dinosaur.  But as you and others have pointed out, it is a useful
 feature for some.


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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[tracer]

Hello John De Hoog,
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:22:22 +0900 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, February 14, 2000, 7:22:22 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
John De Hoog wrote:


> Hello, tracer,

> On Monday, February 14, 2000, you wrote:

t>> But if you mail houskeeping works properly and if as I do myself mail
t>> is stored in received order per folder, the whole problem is les
t>> important as where I was and/or want to be very likely is in either
t>> the last read msg or the one above and to me that difference/one
t>> keystroke is ignorable...

>But that's only one way of ordering mail. In a mailing list like
>this, suppose you opt for a threaded view, and messages arrive for
>different threads. They will be scattered through the message list.
>The only way to get to each one is to open the folder, open the
>threads, and find each unread article manually or with that awkward
>CTRL + ]. This is not a good interface if you like to thread
>discussions.


Ok, agreed, but I rarely thread mail as anything I read which I am
following I remember anyway. Normally not all the details though...
Threading I use if I want to find a specific message in a thread.


Best regards,
 
tracer
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 13 Feb 00, at 16:40, Januk Aggarwal wrote
about "Re: Why not highlighting the newest":

> > TB!'s keyboard navigation is another thing for me. I resist
> > learning it because I simply *KNOW* that there is no reason whatsoever
> > for it to be so cranky and awkward.
> 
>  It is awkward for me, considering I use a standard English keyboard,
>  and so I'm not used to double modifiers and the such.  But for people
>  who are used to languages with many more symbols than English, is it
>  really that bad?  

For Russian, it _is_. It's all the same as for you. When I need to start typing 
Russian rather then English (or whatever Latin-based language), I just press 
right Ctrl button once, which switches the keyboard. The alphabetical buttons 
are labeled twice each on Russian keyboard, so having switched the 
keyboard I just proceed typing without any modifiers, but the same buttons get 
completely different effect when pressed. For example, "G" gives "ð" when 
Russian keyboard layout is active.


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
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Re: Why not highlight the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hello, Alexander,

On Monday, February 14, 2000, you wrote:

>>  But for people who are used to languages with many more symbols
>>  than English, is it really that bad?

AVK> For Russian, it _is_. It's all the same as for you.

 I use a Japanese keyboard and, like Alexander, I don't see what
 that has to do with anything in this discussion.

 In fact, some of the best keyboard-based email interfaces are
 found among the Japanese programs, and some of the worst are
 English-language programs like Poco or Outlook Express or
 Calypso.

 In terms of keyboard interface alone (quite apart for the
 question of whether it sucks or not as a news reader), though,
 Forte Agent is one of the models that other programs could well
 emulate, as Tom noted, because of its emphasis on single-key
 operations, super-efficient navigation, and offering a certain
 degree of choice without becoming too confusing.

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  John De Hoog, Tokyo
   http://dehoog.org

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Closing (?) the thread ""Why not highlighting the ..." and commenting a little

[Homesick Mac]

Sunday, February 13, 2000

Hello everybody,

 Paula  Ford  wrote in her open letter to the list owners:

 

>Note  that  the person who originated the "Why not highlighting the newest
>message in the folder ?" said nothing further.

I'm  saying  it now. I completely agree with what Paula wrote. I've been on
Internet  for some 5 years now and on almost every list I was on there were
people who treated other members badly, newcomers were "dog meat" etc. I've
left some of those lists because I value my time and personal dignity.

Discussing  with  people  like  Steve leads nowhere - he ain't gonna change
anyways  :( , it would only take a great deal of my energy (which I can use
in much more pleasant way, I guess)

At first, I regretted that I ever started the thread: "Why not highlighting
the newest message in the folder?"

But  then, after some discussion mostly between Steve Lamb and John , other
members  of  the  list  acted  and  supported  Johns  _tone_ of discussion.
Opinions  were  different  and,  strange  enough,  I now accept the default
behavior of TB as quite fine indeed, but I would still like another option,
if  possible.

I'd like to kindly thank John, Januk, Tom, Allie, Paula... ( please forgive
me  if  I'm  forgetting  somebody - I went through all messages late in the
evening  )  for  their postings and imput on the subject.

Thanks  even  Steve  Lamb,  because, without your reaction to my question I
wouldn't have known how _really_ nice other members of this list are.

--

Kind regards,
Homesick Mac
http://www.homesickmac.com

Homesick Mac

My system:
Celeron 433 , 64 MB RAM, S Trio graphics, 10 GB HD
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Alexander,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  04:11:57 GMT +0300 (which was 5:11 PM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


> Hi there!


> For Russian, it _is_. It's all the same as for you. When I need to
> start typing Russian rather then English (or whatever Latin-based
> language), I just press right Ctrl button once, which switches the
> keyboard.

 I did not realize that, so it is much like my toggling Caps Lock. So
 if I am typing in the editor and want to delete the next character, I
 can use ctrl-g (I don't know why I would use that particular
 keystroke, but I'm using your example.) When you switch between
 Russian and Latin layouts using the ctrl key, does the behaviour of
 presssing and holding ctrl and the key labeled as G change? (Does
 that question make sense?)
 
> The alphabetical buttons are labeled twice each on Russian keyboard,
> so having switched the keyboard I just proceed typing without any
> modifiers, but the same buttons get completely different effect when
> pressed.

 Ok, to reword my question above, what if you were pressing any
 modifiers, does the behaviour of the other keys change when you are
 in the two different layouts?

> For example, "G" gives "ð" when Russian keyboard layout is active.

 So other than the labeling, is there *anything* different about your
 keyboard to a Standard English Keyboard? Or is the function of an
 international keyboard based entirely on software?


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 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
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Re: Why not highlight the newest message in the folder ?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello John,


On  Sunday, February 13, 2000  at  10:31:18 GMT +0900 (which was 5:31 PM where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:


> Hello, Alexander,

> On Monday, February 14, 2000, you wrote:

>>>  But for people who are used to languages with many more symbols
>>>  than English, is it really that bad?

AVK>> For Russian, it _is_. It's all the same as for you.

>  I use a Japanese keyboard and, like Alexander, I don't see what
>  that has to do with anything in this discussion.

 This branch of the tread seems to have gone into the validity of TB's
 keyboard mappings.  Alexander was just pointing out that my reasoning
 was flawed.

>  In terms of keyboard interface alone (quite apart for the
>  question of whether it sucks or not as a news reader), though,
>  Forte Agent is one of the models that other programs could well
>  emulate, as Tom noted, because of its emphasis on single-key
>  operations, super-efficient navigation, and offering a certain
>  degree of choice without becoming too confusing.

 RIT has said that customizable keyboard mappings would be available
 in Version 2.  Hopefully they make it so that if one person comes up
 with a good one, it can be distributed and imported onto other
 computers very easily.  That could easily be done if the mapping
 information is stored in an appropriate ASCII file.

 
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 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi John,

On  14 February 2000  at  09:22:22 GMT +0900 (which was 00:22 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

JDH> But  that's only one way of ordering mail. In a mailing list like
JDH> this,  suppose  you  opt for a threaded view, and messages arrive
JDH> for different threads. They will be scattered through the message
JDH> list. The only way to get to each one is to open the folder, open
JDH> the  threads,  and find each unread article manually or with that
JDH> awkward  CTRL  +  ].  This is not a good interface if you like to
JDH> thread discussions.

You  said  elsewhere in this thread that the ticker virtual folder was
no  good  because  messages  were  scattered.  And here you state that
you've  at  least  seen  the  threaded  message  list. Ever thought of
combining the two? Threading the ticker virtual folder? It's how I use
it - works pretty good for me.

Here's my opinion on this topic:

1).  Steve  is  absolutely  correct  - and so is TB current behaviour.
 Open  a  folder? Put the cursor right back where it was last time
 we  were  in  there. It's logical. It's correct. Don't change it.
 Please!!! 

And before anyone pops a major vessel -

2).  Is  there  an  easy way of navigating the spread of new messages?
 Well, for those of you who haven't gotten it on with the ticker -
 no. What's missing? Most of the discussions say one keystroke ...
 "next unread message with no folder boundary".

I'm  actually  not  convinced  even  then  that it would be right. The
folder  hierarchy  and  order  would  be  vital  in ensuring that such
messages  would  be  presented  in the desired sequence. let alone the
fact that date order is sacrificed to folder order. Is that best then?
Not for me.

 Perhaps  a  truer  implementation  is  (yet) another keystroke to
 "Open  a  folder  at  the first new message". This is what should
 really  be asked for here, rather than any change to the existing
 and, IMHO, *very* logical behaviour.

For  my own use, I would have none of these extraneous keystrokes. The
ticker  virtual  folder does it all (for me) and more, since I see all
new  messages  in  the order in which they were written, threaded, and
folder order is immaterial.

I  don't  have  to exhaust all new messages in one folder before I can
see older messages in another.

And, oh yes, BTW Steve .. the language at the top of this thread could
have  left  it still-born had I not been away for the weekend. Luckily
the  flames blew themselves out before I got my horse gun out. Keep it
cool out there!

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
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Re: Why not highlighting the newest message in the folder ?

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Allie,

On  13 February 2000  at  09:47:38 GMT  -0500 (which was 14:47 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

>> Like  I  said, because TB! tries to make keys for every pissant
>> little  function  people  want. Quicksearch falls into the "pissant
>> litte function" catagory.

AM> Again, no. It's a useful function. It avoids having to open
AM> another applet with advanced search functions to simply search for a
AM> message in the folder that's open. However, the reasoning behind why
AM> they killed 36 potential keyboard shortcut keys instead of one, in
AM> it's honour, is beyond me. :(

A  tragedy,  IMHO.  I have use Quick Search recently. I would actually
prefer  to  have had to type Ctrl-Q (or some such) to start it. You're
quite right with this.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

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Re: Why not highlight the newest message in the folder ?

[John De Hoog]

Hello, Marck,

On Monday, February 14, 2000, you wrote:

MDP> You  said  elsewhere in this thread that the ticker virtual folder was
MDP> no  good  because  messages  were  scattered.  And here you state that
MDP> you've  at  least  seen  the  threaded  message  list. Ever thought of
MDP> combining the two? Threading the ticker virtual folder? It's how I use
MDP> it - works pretty good for me.

   Admittedly it's an improvement. Instead of scattered articles, you
   have scattered threads from different folders. Progress.

   Now, what about the messages not on the ticker? If you work at your
   computer, as I do, you probably have some folders marked not to
   show up on the ticker. Getting to the unread articles in them is
   still a chore with the current available key strokes.

   You also wrote:

> Perhaps  a  truer  implementation  is  (yet) another keystroke  to
> "Open  a  folder  at  the first new message". This is what  should
> really  be asked for here, rather than any change to the  existing
> and, IMHO, *very* logical behaviour.

  Yes, this would help. To me, though, the most *logical* behavior
  would be (1) if there are no unread messages in a folder, open it at
  the last read message, but (2) if there are unread messages in a
  folder, open it from the first unread message. As others have
  expressed, I don't ordinarily go back and look at read messages, and
  when I do, it's not necessarily the last one I have read. So your
  logic here escapes me.

  In any case, I'm really asking for flexibility here, rather than
  insisting there can only be one logical way to approach folder
  navigation.

-- 
Yours,
  John De Hoog, Tokyo
   http://dehoog.org



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Re: Why not highlight the newest message in the folder ?

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:22:16 +0900, John De Hoog wrote:

{...snip...}

>   In any case, I'm really asking for flexibility here, rather than
>   insisting there can only be one logical way to approach folder
>   navigation.

*Allie walks over and pats John on the back* I almost heard a
sigh there John. :)) We know that's what your pushing for and I agree
that it's worthwhile. It's been hard day with this point hasn't it?

My interest though is in clarifying that what TB! does at the
moment is logical and not based on assumption and it should remain the
default behaviour and the only behaviour if no other option is
provided. I do also agree with your statements concerning Agents
navigational interface. It's the best I've used and I'll certainly be
setting up TB! version two in a similar fashion.

I wonder what happened to the scroll-lock key and why the
majority of apps nowadays, Agent being one notable exception, don't
take advantage of it.

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