Re: The Bat! - bug report

[Nick Andriash]

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Hash: SHA1

On September 16, 2000, at 7:01:08 PM, Marck D. Pearlstone Wrote:

> Steps to reproduce the bug:
> Receive  a signed message containing TAB characters and try to get
> the signature to pass verification - it won't.

Confirmed! ;o)


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.46 Beta 6 | PGP 6.5.8 | Win 98 v4.10 ]
Vancouver, B.C. Canada  |  PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE
_

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Comment: Join PGP-Basics at http://www.egroups.com/group/PGP-Basics

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PGP in TB

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Graham,

I broke the thread.

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 07:41:59 +0100 GMT (17/09/2000, 14:41 +0800 GMT),
Graham wrote:

G> As this did not happen with other mailers, I would suggest that The
G> Bat needs to be brought into line by a fix so that its handling of
G> PGP is the same for all messages.

I agree with you here.

G> On the subject of PGP, I cannot get PGP 2.6.3ai to be recognised by
G> The Bat, even though I can use it through Windows front ends such as
G> PGPClick and MailPGP quite easily.  The Bat's inbuilt PGP routines
G> use my 2.6.3ai keyring successfully and show encryption/signing with
G> PGP 2.6

I didn't know TB supported PGP versions before - what was it - 5? I
understand something was changed in the PGP standard at that time. So
I am surprised it works at all! 

Or am I confused about OS's?

G> Can anybody shed any light on this?

Just guessing, I'm really no PGP expert.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Graham]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On this one point, in the PGP-Basics newsgroup, a contributor using
GnuPG (through Linux) found that his signature couldn't be verified
by The Bat, whereas it showed up as "good" using a wide range of
mailers and even through PGPtray.

The problem appears to be with his comment line, which had two Tabs
in it.  These were converted to 16 spaces by The Bat, which messed up
his signature and The Bat couldn't verify it through its internal
processes.

As this did not happen with other mailers, I would suggest that The
Bat needs to be brought into line by a fix so that its handling of
PGP is the same for all messages.

On the subject of PGP, I cannot get PGP 2.6.3ai to be recognised by
The Bat, even though I can use it through Windows front ends such as
PGPClick and MailPGP quite easily.  The Bat's inbuilt PGP routines
use my 2.6.3ai keyring successfully and show encryption/signing with
PGP 2.6

Can anybody shed any light on this?

Graham

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 16/09/00 at 20:36 Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>
>The one thing I really like about TB's TAB is that the TAB is
>replaced by an equivalent number of spaces.  I have seen so many
>editors treat a tab character in so many different ways that I've
>totally stopped
>using the TAB key.
>

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:58:23 +0200 GMT (17/09/2000, 09:58 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS>  >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

KS> Ouch. I was hoping that it was a glitch in the mailing 
KS> list software, but since I read that the mailinglist 
KS> was run through TB I feared that it was a TB habit.

KS> I'm not going to switich OS in order to find the perfect mail client ;-)

No need. Just add "%Singlere" to your Reply Templates. I wish it would
be added as default, and reply counting a feature.

KS> >Of course, falls back to my whole >"should use an external editor
KS> in the first place" kick.

KS> Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

One that was resolved a long time ago. See my other mail.

KS>  >BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?)

KS> She. Pic at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/images/write.html

Do you know this one:
http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/rogues.html 

I don't know who keeps it updated now, maybe Marck?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
time. :-)

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:57:18 +0200 GMT (17/09/2000, 10:57 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> It can -- and should  -- distinguish one paragraph 
>>from the other by a . No empty line should be needed.

KS>  >KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

This may well be your personal preference, I think it is not a country
standard.

Is it only me, or is this thread about editor preferences? No, Steve,
mentioned the same. Well, the editor is not going to change, as the
developers concentrate on the email funcitonality. However, a version
2 is in preparation, and this one will allow you to choose your
preferred external editor. Yes, you will be able to make it the
default, so it will fire up every time you create a new mail, or reply
to a mail.

KS> So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers?

I think there is a difference between an email client acting up as a
nanny, and a mailing list on the family channel. ;-)

KS>  >KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

KS>  >You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.

 I'll join Marck here. Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
 in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?
 Because it messses up my colour coding: replies (anything that has a
 ">" character as one of the first 20 characters in the line) is shown
 in red instead of blue, so I can easily distinguish the new stuff.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: Saving old mail?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Jack,

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:49:23 -0500 GMT (17/09/2000, 11:49 +0800 GMT),
Jack LaRosa wrote:

JL>>> I just looked at the preferences for my outbox and I have both the
JL>>> "Remove old messages" and "Compress the folder" boxes checked. The
JL>>> "keep nn messages/keep messages for nn days" boxes are set to zero.

TF>> But they checkboxes are not ticked, are they?

JL> If by "ticked" you mean "containing a check mark" then, yes, they're
JL> ticked.

Was I clear or not? - What I mean is, the "Keep message for nn days"
and "Keep nn messages" shold *not* be ticked (equals: should *not*
contain the tick mark). This way, only sent messages will be purged
and unsent messages will be kept.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Replying to your message dated Saturday, September 16, 2000, at 4:27 PM

[Wayne Black]

Hello Marck,

Saturday, September 16, 2000, 4:27:18 PM, you wrote:

KS>> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I
KS>> have Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail
KS>> as plain text, tags included.

MDP> Hang-on  ...  with  tags?  You mean like  ... ? Then that
MDP> doesn't even conform to true HTML standard. You might be talking about
MDP> RTF  (Rich Text Format) mail, which isn't HTML standard and might show
MDP> as  you  describe.  HTML mail usually consists of a plain text message
MDP> with an attachment containing the HTML version of it.

I had the same thing happen, being to see all of the HTML tags in my
messages but found out why. In one of the messages in this group it
mentioned that when importing messages from Eudora, this will happen.
That's just what I did when I left Eudora (because of going to
"adware") New HTML displays just fine. Learning more all the time...

Wayne  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[ztrader]

On Saturday, September 16, 2000, 7:57:18 PM, you wrote:

KS>  >Please do not use language like this here.

KS> In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome message.

Most people do not need this spelled out for them, they just don't do
it as a matter of course in a polite group.

KS> So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

And even after being asked nicely, you still persist.

KS>  >KS> There's no discussing taste.

In your case, perhaps not.

I, too, prefer to have a forum that is free of profanity. I do hope
you find another email client and support list that pleases you.

(quickly jumps in fireproof suit, awaiting the flamers attack :-)

ztrader

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Re: Saving old mail?

[Jack LaRosa]

Hello Thomas,

On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:23:42 +0800 GMT your local time, which was
Thursday, September 14, 2000, 10:23:42 PM (GMT-6) my local time,
you wrote:


TF> Hi Jack,

TF> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:21:32 -0500GMT (15/09/2000, 08:21 +0800GMT),
TF> Jack LaRosa wrote:

JL>> I just looked at the preferences for my outbox and I have both the
JL>> "Remove old messages" and "Compress the folder" boxes checked. The
JL>> "keep nn messages/keep messages for nn days" boxes are set to zero.

TF> But they checkboxes are not ticked, are they?

If by "ticked" you mean "containing a check mark" then, yes, they're
ticked.

-- 
Sincerely,
Jack LaRosamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Alabama, USA

Message created 10:48:07 PM  (GMT-6) on Saturday, September 16, 2000

=
Using The Bat! ver. 1.45 (reg)
under Windows 98  ver.4.10  build   Service Pack  A 
=



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 19:54 16-09-2000 -0700, Januk Aggarwal kindly wrote:
 >Hello Karin,

 >> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then
 >> new massages get added to old (unread) messages.
 >> That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I
 >> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've
 >> recieved do many here and w\so may there.

 >You can have TB run a separate application each time a given filter is
 >run.  With a suitable scripting language, you may be able to achieve
 >the result you want.  Nick was only pointing out the possibilities
 >with the *current* implementation.

I am not sure that I follow you...
Yes, I discovered that TB's filters are quite 
powerful and that you can invoke other prgrams through 
them. And yes, I can play soundfiles whenever mail for 
TB arrives in its designated folder. But ion the end 
that would create quite a racket, and all I want is 
some kind of summary -- esp. in the morning, when I 
fire up my mailer and have 37 messages arriving.
As I said: the new messages feature doens't work for 
me, becasue within folders I don't always read 
immediatelty, and in TB those mailboxes will 
invaribaly show _all_ that is unread as new. While I 
am looking for a feature that shows me what is new, not unread.



- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Mark,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:25:39 GMT +0100 (which was 8:25 PM
where I live) witnesses say Mark R Harding typed:

> To think that all this time other people knew what was going only and
> I only had to ask... sheesh... don't I feel better?!

As I said in one of my posts to this threads, even some of the real
old timers need to ask questions sometimes.  

> Actually, that's great because it was the one part of the editor I
> didn't like much - I can see the use of it but equally I often 'think'
> in terms of jumping to the next '8th character' position so I just
> surprise myself when TB notices my previous line of text and nicks the
> cursor into no-mans land...  Thanks for explaining that one.

The one thing I really like about TB's TAB is that the TAB is replaced
by an equivalent number of spaces.  I have seen so many editors treat
a tab character in so many different ways that I've totally stopped
using the TAB key.

> On another note - all of Karin's replies have the quoted parts
> indented by a single space which means, in my view at least, that the
> funky red-emboldened text that usually highlights quoted text is not
> catching it.

That's a good way to ad a '>' character to the text without it turning
colour.  Any line that starts with a space is assumed to be not a
quoted line, regardless of the existence of the > character.

>  It's amazing how unaccustomed my eye is to separating the
> text without the colour demarcation.

I know the feeling.  It is a bit of a shocker when I use other
programs.  

>  Is there anything that can be
> done to remedy this?

Un/fortunately, not unless you export those messages, edit them
externally and then re-import.




-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 17 September 2000 at 04:57:18 GMT +0200 (which was 03:57 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

>> No  we're  not.  These  are  *technical*  issues  regarding how the
>> *editor* can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

KS> It can -- and should -- distinguish one paragraph from the other
KS> by a . No empty line should be needed.

TB  usesto  end  a line. When auto paragraph formatting is on,
there  is  *absolutely  no*  difference  between a line which has been
wrapped  at its' end with a  and a  you typed. Now, if can you
write a clairvoyance subroutine you could sell it to RIT labs to solve
this problem .

Trust  me.  An empty line *is* needed. It's not needed in /other/ mail
editors  because  they  don't give a fig about re-formatting a message
behind the sender's back, between hitting send and letting the message
out.

>> Sorry Karin but we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
>> Please do not use language like this here.

KS> In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome
KS> message.

We do: list Rules, Item 1, para b, section 2:

2. Do  not  use  profanity. Personally, I have no problem with
   it, but this list is not the place for it. If a list member
   is consistently abusive, they will be banned from the list.

KS> And now you say I can't say chili peppers? F**k.

Please - I've shown you the rule - this has to be your last warning.

KS> Good, and I had hoped that it would. But that addresses the look
KS> of the mail after sending, and doesn't guide your actions (i.e.
KS> cursor movements) while composing.

Nope,  TB  does  nothing  to  mail  text  after  sending  (other  than
sign/encrypt and dispatch). That's why it can't distinguish paragraphs
during composition. They are the same as wrapped lines unless there is
a blank line between.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Kids Stuff:
Rain is saved up in cloud banks.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

A.,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

ACM> You seem to have ''Smart' Tabs' enabled in the editor preferences. With
ACM> this option enabled, the tabbing will vary depending on the situation.
ACM> The tabbing will always adjust in such a way that the cursor ends up in
ACM> line with the first letter of the line of text above.

... and I am yet further enlightened! ...

To think that all this time other people knew what was going only and
I only had to ask... sheesh... don't I feel better?!

Actually, that's great because it was the one part of the editor I
didn't like much - I can see the use of it but equally I often 'think'
in terms of jumping to the next '8th character' position so I just
surprise myself when TB notices my previous line of text and nicks the
cursor into no-mans land...  Thanks for explaining that one.

On another note - all of Karin's replies have the quoted parts
indented by a single space which means, in my view at least, that the
funky red-emboldened text that usually highlights quoted text is not
catching it. It's amazing how unaccustomed my eye is to separating the
text without the colour demarcation. Is there anything that can be
done to remedy this? - I presume the indented quoting style is a
feature of Eudora, yes?

Best wishes,

Mark.

-- 
-
 Using TheBat! 1.46c Windows NT 4 0 1381 Service Pack 6
-
 Just4Fun - Freestuff, Humour and More! - http://just4fun.ipfox.com/
-
 Mark R Harding
 The Integrated Systems Group (Vision)
 Department of Electronics & Electrical Engineering
 The University of Edinburgh, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road
 Edinburgh. EH9 3JL. Scotland. U.K.

 Phone:  +44 (0)131 650 5662
 Fax:+44 (0)131 650 6554
 Email:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 URL:http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/
-
 PGP-Key Available at:  http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/pgp.html
-



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:57:18 +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

KS>  One of the reasons why I want to dump Eudora is becuase of
KS> its stupid, patronizing and utterly ridiculous Moodwatch thingie,
KS> that grades "distrusted" words in e-mail with "chili peppers". (Too
KS> hot to handle.) Hence (and for some more, but this was the turning
KS> point), I started looking for another e-mail client. So I came here.
KS> And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.


This, unlike the first use of profanity, is in direct defiance of list
charter rules. A warning has been issued here. The rest of subscribers
need to know that this has been noted and dealt with. :-(


- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Plankton lobbyist: NUKE THE WHALES! "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

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=KD90
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:21:01 GMT +0200 (which was 7:21 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> Is it now. I have been on the net for six years and
> nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the 
> fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
> read my and theirs contributions with.

Why would they?  They can't see what font you're using.  But if you
try to do any formatting with variable width fonts, it looks really
bad.  ^^  The word formatting should have a series of
^ characters under it.  If it does not, then you aren't using a
monospaced font, and thus aren't seeing what I intended.  Of course I
could use a RTF, but you're even less likely to be able to read them.

> And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole 
> point of _not_ sending html and stylized  that
   
Haven't you already gotten two warnings about that type of language on
this list?

> this allows end users to see what they get the way 
> they want to see it?

Nobody will argue that one.  But if you do things like producing
tables or ASCII art or any other formatting in plain text, fixed width
fonts are the only way to go and ensure that everyone can read them.

>  Isn't html meant to be just 
> _structure_ which each end-user can apply their own lay-out to?

No.  HTML is a markup language.  Thus the author creates the look that
they want to the message.  Different rendering engines may display it
slightly differently, but the basics are determined by the author.


>  >No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
>  >variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
>  >should.

> Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should 
> send their mail in stylized text or html with css, 
> because only that way that get  to see it as _you_ 
> meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the general idea.

I think you're missing the point.  Variable width fonts have *no*
common ground between fonts.  5 spaces in one fixed width font will
*look* like 5 spaces in any other fixed width font.

> I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ 
> aloow me to switch from prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

But this isn't Eudora.  For now, TB supports only one class of fonts.
The members of this list are trying to explain to you some of the
logic behind that decision.

> my inbox is the designated place for unexpected mail,
> and I would like to be automatically pointed there. 
> lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 

Currently the only way to come close to what you want is if you create
your own script in some external scripting language.  Then have TB
call this script whenever a given filter is used.

> Swans, so many; TheBat, so many; HippiesFromHell, so 
> many. The amount of new mail in each list does often 
> affect my curiostoty. And as for overview, I don't 
> think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
> especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
> or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will
> show as nee. Exit overview.

Why not use the message flagging or the colour groups?  If you want
mark them as unread, why should TB assume that they aren't new?  Some
have requested another marking such as "seen but not read," but it
seems redundant with all the features currently available.



-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi David,

On 17 September 2000 at 19:43:34 GMT -0700 (which was 03:43 where I
live) David Tod Sigafoos wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

DTS> Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told
DTS> would never happen ..

No, you were told it wasn't the way it did it right now and we are all
anxious for the programmers to concentrate on V2 issues.

DTS> i was wrong ..

No,  you  were  told  that you were right and agreed with by everyone.
Even those that supported the opposite view had reservations.

DTS> and it was a dead horse.

Yes  -  because  we  had  all said the same thing over and over again.
There was no sense in rehashing the same argument.

DTS> Only to get a message from one of the developers saying .. yep ..
DTS> we're changing it .

Yes, because it was *the consensus*.

DTS> So who knows .. if enough of us work with it and ask for some
DTS> changes AND change the way we do things .. The Bat will improve.

..  as  it  has  continued  to do throughout the time we have all been
using  it.  It is very likely that v2 will see external editor support
and  better  option  selection to allow the in-built editor to be more
conformant   with  WinUser  expectations.  I  cut  my  compu-teeth  on
mainframe  terminals  and  (much  later) DOS editors, all of which had
free  carets and fixed pitch fonts. Even now, all the main programming
language  UIs  have  the same free caret and fixed pitch. I'm right at
home  here  . The consensus is less obvious on these issues than on
the registry/ini issue. Who can tell? It might happen anyway.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:38 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:15:58PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:

 >> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

 >Free caret I considered advanced.

Wish it were. Then I could happily switch it off ;-)

 >> For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty standard.

 >Again, it is not a standard.  That is what I said.

Seconded.

 >and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as one since it isn't
 >published and can change on a whim.

Look at what Microsoft standards did to HTML.

- K -

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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 02:31 17-09-2000 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

[tabs and paragraphs]

 >KS> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences
 >KS> here.

 >No  we're not. These are *technical* issues regarding how the *editor*
 >can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

It can -- and should  -- distinguish one paragraph 
from the other by a . No empty line should be needed.

 >KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

 >Maybe not, but in a plain text editor which offer paragraph formatting
 >you *have* to.

Not when I _end_ the paragraph, methinks

 >KS> Jurek  answered  that  one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
 >KS> ** up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.

 >^^
 >Sorry  Karin  but  we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
 >Please do not use language like this here.

In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome message.

 One of the reasons why I want to dump Eudora is 
becuase of its stupid, patronizing and utterly 
ridiculous Moodwatch thingie, that grades "distrusted" 
words in e-mail with "chili peppers". (Too hot to 
handle.) Hence (and for some more, but this was the 
turning point), I started looking for another e-mail 
client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

 >KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the
 >KS> fixed fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

 >Fixed  font  provides  exact  WYSIWYG  formatting and free caret helps
 >(most)  or  hinders  (some)  to  format  at will. Something else needs
 >explaining here: unused space is auto-stripped from the ends of lines.

Good, and I had hoped that it would. But that 
addresses the look of the mail after sending, and 
doesn't guide your actions (i.e. cursor movements) while composing.

 >>> You  can  filter your mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide
 >>> you with a virtual folder full of *all* of your new mail

 >KS> 
 >KS> 

 >I  keep my ticker DSR (down-stage right) about 1.5" across. It doesn't
 >impinge too much and lets me at my new mail *real* quick.

I'll try that one. Thanks for the tip.

Promised. I _will_ look at the keyboard stroke section 
of the FAQ with soem more scrutiny.

 >KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

 >You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.

 Thanks for the encouragement. That is kind. Plus, it fortifies me ;-)


- K -

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:41:42 GMT +0200 (which was 7:41 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then
> new massages get added to old (unread) messages. 
> That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I 
> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've 
> recieved do many here and w\so may there.

You can have TB run a separate application each time a given filter is
run.  With a suitable scripting language, you may be able to achieve
the result you want.  Nick was only pointing out the possibilities
with the *current* implementation.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:43:34 -0700, David Tod Sigafoos wrote:

DTS> As you are probably seeing there is a lot of 'we know everything' and
DTS> there is only ONE way to do things .. yada yada yada.  Try to let
DTS> these notes go by .. just sympathize.

DTS> The real thing is to look at The Bat and all of its features.  I have
DTS> moved to The Bat from Eudora.  Although there is a learning curve (and
DTS> a bit of patience) it is a good move.

DTS> Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told would
DTS> never happen .. i was wrong .. and it was a dead horse.

 Who said *anything* would never happen where TB!'s development
is going?

Anyway, this editor grouse is a really old one and very much has a lot
to do with the fact that slated features for version 2 of TB! include
editor support for variable width fonts and support for the use of an
external editor and or an alternative integrated editor.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:17 16-09-2000 -0700, Nick Andriash kindly wrote:
 >On September 16, 2000, at 5:56:33 PM, Karin Spaink Wrote:

[tickeers, and filter reports]

 >> I don't want to have each and every header... I
 >> just would love to have a general overview. "The
 >> Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...

 >That feature is one I truly enjoy with TB!... one quick look at my Folder
 >Tree, and I can see *exactly* how many new messages (unread) I've
 >received, and which Folder they reside in.

'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then 
new massages get added to old (unread) messages. 
That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I 
don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've 
recieved do many here and w\so may there.

 >Karin, in View/Split Mode, what do you have selected? I chose Full-height
 >Account Tree, and it gives me the view you request.

Full-width preview. Mailbox tree on the left, messages 
on the right, separate windows opening for actual 
messages (i.e. no preview). I need the space on both 
the right and the left: too many mailboxes, too much new mail.

- K -

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[David Tod Sigafoos]

Hello Karin,

Just a quick note ..

As you are probably seeing there is a lot of 'we know everything' and
there is only ONE way to do things .. yada yada yada.  Try to let
these notes go by .. just sympathize.

The real thing is to look at The Bat and all of its features.  I have
moved to The Bat from Eudora.  Although there is a learning curve (and
a bit of patience) it is a good move.

Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told would
never happen .. i was wrong .. and it was a dead horse.  Only to get a
message from one of the developers saying .. yep .. we're changing it
.  So who knows .. if enough of us work with it and ask for some
changes AND change the way we do things .. The Bat will improve.

-- 
Hang in there,
 Davidmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:58:52 +0100, Mark R Harding wrote:


MRH> What does perplex me still is how exactly the tab key works.  My usual
MRH> experience from both Windows and Unix editors is that the tab key
MRH> indents the cursor position (either by a control-character or by
MRH> inserting extra white space as required) to the next 'tab-stop' which
MRH> is normally defined as a regular series of positions along the text
MRH> line - say ever 4,8,16 or however many characters.

Yes. The tabbing with TB!'s editor will tab in 8 characters at a time,
all the time, provided ''Smart' Tabs' is disabled in the editor
preferences.

MRH> In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
MRH> Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will jump
MRH> the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line leaving a
MRH> gap of about 60% page width.  If anyone here has the wisdom or
MRH> knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm a perplexed
MRH> person waiting for enlightenment... :)

You seem to have ''Smart' Tabs' enabled in the editor preferences. With
this option enabled, the tabbing will vary depending on the situation.
The tabbing will always adjust in such a way that the cursor ends up in
line with the first letter of the line of text above.

  So if I type this and start a new line, hit tab, I end up
  *here. See the new line starts in line with the one above.

With quoted material, it ignores the quote prefixing. So if I hit tab
below the following line:

allie>   Test line
 |the cursor ends up at the beginning of the quoted line
ignoring the prefix as above.

or

allie>  another test
|here it is.

or

> test
  |Here it is.

This is the method behind the madness of the Smart Tab. If you don't
like it, turn it off and your tabbing will be fixed at 8 characters. :-)

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 20:15 16-09-2000 -0500, A. Curtis Martin kindly wrote:

 >SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
 >SL> features of an editor.

 >She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

I have. I use multiple accounts, I am filtering 
excessively, I am making standard replies and 
templates and what have you. But Steve is right in 
this: the editor sucks. I like most of what I see, but 
composing a message or replying to one is my one big hassle with TB.

 >She has been
 >complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and behaviour.
 >Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty
 >standard.

It is not. Try using notepad, hit Enter and then Tab, 
and type. Will your soursor move up one line and undo your ?

 >>Notice here he(?) says he is

 >I think he is a she. :-)

Let's call it a tie ;-)

- K -

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

Marck,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

MDP> TB's  TAB  is  set up for tabular entry. It keys on the spacing in the
MDP> line(s) above - no matter how far above - for tab stops. Like this:

MDP>Col1   Col2   Col3 Col4   Col5
MDP>Tab1   tab2   tab3 tab4   tab5

MDP> Only  in  a  blank  and  empty  editor  window  does  TAB  do anything
MDP> "sensible".

Aha - thank you, consider me suitably enlightened.  :)

Cheers,

Mark


-- 
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 Using TheBat! 1.46c Windows NT 4 0 1381 Service Pack 6
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 The Integrated Systems Group (Vision)
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 Edinburgh. EH9 3JL. Scotland. U.K.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:05 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:56:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

 >> Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.  And as I told Jurek: it
 >> feels as if somebdy is hammering it in. You _will_ 
have fixed fomts and even
 >> if you find your way around them. we will still 
make your message editor act
 >> asd if it were fixed font!

 >Trust us, it is the only way email should be.

Is it now. I have been on the net for six years and 
nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the 
fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
read my and theirs contributions with.

And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole 
point of _not_ sending html and stylized shit that 
this allows end users to see what they get the way 
they want to see it? Isn't html meant to be just 
_structure_ which each end-user can apply their own lay-out to?

 >> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences here. In my
 >> country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

 >Right, it is cultural.  It is the online culture to separate paragraphs
 >with a CR.  You're online, time to do as the romans do.

Thank you for kindly allowing me. And while you are the Romans, am I your Hun?

 >> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed fomt as
 >> the only alternative _and_ free caret?

 >No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
 >variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
 >should.

Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should 
send their mail in stylized text or html with css, 
because only that way that get  to see it as _you_ 
meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the general idea.

 >The only sane solution is to use a fixed-width font so what you see
 >will closely approximate what they will see.  Again, refer to my signature as
 >an example.

I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ 
aloow me to switch from prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

 >> I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over everything else -- plus, i
 >> still need to go to my inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...

 >Feh, filter report is nasty anyway.  I don't want this stupid window
 >popping up every minute telling me I have new mail.

I am not telling you to want it. I am telling the list that _I_ miss it.

 >Yes, I check every minute
 >and during the day, on a busy day, I can get more than 1 mail a minute across
 >my accounts.  The fact that the folder list has 
hightlights and numbers of new
 >mail in each folder already tells me that I have new mail and where it is.

I got loads of mail too. And yes, I want to have an 
unobtrusive warning if any of my fave mailinglist have 
new contributions, and of course my known contacts get 
filtered into their appropriate mailboxes. But if 
you'd think a bit beyond that, you'd understand that 
my inbox is the designated place for unexpected mail, 
and I would like to be automatically pointed there. 
lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 
Swans, so many; TheBat, so many; HippiesFromHell, so 
many. The amount of new mail in each list does often 
affect my curiostoty. And as for overview, I don't 
think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will 
show as nee. Exit overview.

 >If you want it to bouce to your inbox chances 
are you're not filtering and
 >are already sitting in your inbox.

I am filtering abundantly, thank you very much.

 >If you are filtering then your mail isn't
 >going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.

Why do I suddenly get the idea that you're arrogant?

- K -

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

Steve,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

SL> That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.  There is a big
SL> difference.  AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what keystrokes do, not editor
SL> behavior.  There is a difference.  

True enough but given that TB! runs under Windows exclusively (unless
I really missing something...) then I think it is fair to assume that
the Windows Keystroke standard is an acceptable common standard that
everyone already knows... it may not be a pleasant fact but I'm sure
it's true.

For curiosity's sake, I just looked at the options available in
TextPad which is my preferred Windows editor for all my other text
manipulation tasks.  Textpad offers the following choices...

 TextPad
 Brief
 IBM Personal Editor
 Microsoft Applications
 Textpad 2
 Wordstar

I would assume that the target to hit to make the most users happy is
the 4th one - the Microsoft Applications - given that it covers the
most bases on a Windows platform.  I don't know if any of the above
approach the CUA standard you mentioned but I recall from the days I
had to edit files under unix on a regular basis that I really disliked
the emacs based editors because the keystrokes required were
completely alien to me.  Yes, I know that emacs can adopt Windows like
functionality and that it probably is the most ultra-extensible editor
in the world but I ended up using either nEdit for its Windows-like
keystroke compatibility or vim if the job was quick and simple.

I guess we'll not get anywhere without an editor that suits our own
preferences but for the majority of windows users that does mean 'what
they already know' and TB! isn't that.  If they don't have the
time/inclination to learn then they'll pass it over.  I'm glad I
invested the time to learn the editor - it's a benfit to me but maybe
I'm just one of the lucky ones...

Cheers,

Mark


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 Mark R Harding
 The Integrated Systems Group (Vision)
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark,

On 17 September 2000 at 02:58:52 GMT +0100 (which was 02:58 where I
live) Mark R Harding wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

MRH> In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
MRH> Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will
MRH> jump the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line
MRH> leaving a gap of about 60% page width. If anyone here has the
MRH> wisdom or knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm
MRH> a perplexed person waiting for enlightenment... :)

TB's  TAB  is  set up for tabular entry. It keys on the spacing in the
line(s) above - no matter how far above - for tab stops. Like this:

   Col1   Col2   Col3 Col4   Col5
   Tab1   tab2   tab3 tab4   tab5

Only  in  a  blank  and  empty  editor  window  does  TAB  do anything
"sensible".

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 My reality cheque just bounced
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

iQA/AwUBOcQp0TnkJKuSnc2gEQLW4QCghuNm/TV2L4wHZwGft3/BQt7M6GUAoL+C
VLbjwa6DhjAD5XnFIMCQ7TAB
=lgYg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: RFC gurus? TB trashes attachments

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi tracer,

On 16 September 2000 at 00:23:38 GMT  +0700 (which was 18:23 where I
live) tracer wrote and made these points on the subject
of "RFC gurus? TB trashes attachments":

>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

t><--

t>sorry to ask, but why
t>is my email address
t>there??
>> You are subscribed as : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I'm not answering this again! 

Tracer  ... you really must finish reading the threads before you jump
in ;-) .

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Headline - Safety Experts Say School Bus Passengers Should Be Belted
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

iQA/AwUBOcQoEDnkJKuSnc2gEQJlqgCg6xX9/QE/OMkiQuVk9ZhAgDp4feEAn15u
fO80S6WoXWXyuKD58fT0OTmd
=Ml/6
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 17:47 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:36:13AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

 >> 1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the Subject line and suddenly
 >> gets "Re[2]: etc" instead of your standard "Re: etc"?

 >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

Ouch. I was hoping that it was a glitch in the mailing 
list software, but since I read that the mailinglist 
was run through TB I feared that it was a TB habit.

 >You can turn that off in the
 >templates.  The exact macro eludes me at the moment.  Again, on Linux, not
 >Windows.

I'm not going to switich OS in order to find the perfect mail client ;-)

 >> 2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What 
I added (new CR's) can be
 >> undone, but what I inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought back.

 >That always annoyed me.  Call it a bug.

If I am correct in my assessment, it's a bug.

 >Of course, falls back to my whole
 >"should use an external editor in the first place" kick.

Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

 >Already the editor
 >is annoying you in several ways.  If it were external you'd just continue
 >running the editor you'd always run.

Currently, for mail, I use the inbuilt Eudora one. But 
no, I wouldn't mind using Notepad as an editor, but I 
sure as hell don't want to need to invoke it myself. My mail client should.

 >> I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a 
reason to give up The Bat
 >> (and explore other clients). But apart from my personal likes and dislikes,
 >> I don't think that your argument holds.  Yes, this is a nice feature when
 >> you make a table; but how often do you make a table as compared to you
 >> editing your message and moving up and down through it?

 >See, another fine case for an external editor.

Don't use me for your own war, I'll refuse ;-)
I'd rather that somebody address the overkill issue.

 >> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
 >> And it _is_ non-standard.

 >Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

To not undo your CR and TAB? _That_ is what YTB is 
currently doing. I get kicked back to the previous 
line. I find that unacceptable.

 >Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
 >features of an editor.

For advanced eatures: granted. But I wouldn't call 
allowing   advanced.

 >> That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a national habit. And I am
 >> not US or Canadian. To people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to my
 >> peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A tab is the marker for a
 >> paragraph, a blank line the marker for a new idea.

 >On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.

Says you. Besides, national habits and styles 
notwithstanding, who is my mail client to tell me what 
_my_ mails should look like?

 >> Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not trying to piss you off.
 >> But I _am_ desperate for a mail client that has lots of features and can be
 >> fine-tuned to a huge degree.

 >BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?)

She. Pic at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/images/write.html

 >says he is
 >looking for an email client which is tunable yet all 
his complaints, thus far,
 >have been with the /editor/?

Actually, this rephrasal fits me to a T. Thank you. 
There are quite some reasons why I like TB. The 
interface, threading, good filtering, nice 
personalised templates (so WTF can't I personalise my 
layout and my editor?), nice bonus thrown in (cookies 
allowing for a rotating .sig) and the one thing that I 
dislike is how I am forced to COMPOSE a mail.

 >> The reasons? I get heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
 >> auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors (so they should be easy
 >> to correct and my cursor should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
 >> hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is becoming and I dislike
 >> the road that they are taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
 >> Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing and less new (stupid)
 >> features.

 >Let me ask you a simple question.  If you could replace the editor with
 >something else, go out to an external editor so you could choose the editor
 >you wanted to use (personally, I'd use VIM but most people here don't want to
 >deal with a VI clone with tons of added features) would you take that route
 >and keep TB?

Yes. Notepad will do. I dont want fancy stuff. I just 
want to be able to set my line length, my tabs, use 
CR's at will, have Ctrl-Z and that is basically it. I 
don't want another word porcessor. I have one. In my 
mail I want a simple text editor, and I won't mind it 
at all if I can use the plain text editors that I already have,

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

-- 
--

The Bat! - bug report

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello The Bat! developers,

  I'm using The Bat! Version 1.46c
  Serial Number 14F4B4B2
  under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998
  and would like to report a bug

  The bug description:
If a signed PGP message contains TAB characters, TB converts these
to spaces and invalidates the PGP signature.

  Steps to reproduce the bug:
Receive  a signed message containing TAB characters and try to get
the signature to pass verification - it won't.

Regards,
  Marck D. Pearlstone

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

iQA/AwUBOcQl5DnkJKuSnc2gEQJ0bACg8WAMc1xVVHGF0R6XP3cuVIWFPhEAn27n
CPZimmys91KtJDWgKI5AmdQy
=85tK
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

A.,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

ACM> I personally do like the free caret interface myself. Also, for me,
ACM> TB!'s editor took some time to get accustomed to. It was a period of
ACM> adjustment and giving and taking. The end result has been that the
ACM> shortcomings for me do not exceed the good points. If TB! were to
ACM> support an external editor, I would still use this one.

I would agree with this myself.  I took a while to learn the
differences between the Windows standard editor functionality and
TB!'s functionality but the free caret interface is something I find I
take advantage of regularly simply because it allows me to easily lay
out my text in a clearer and more 'creative' way.

What does perplex me still is how exactly the tab key works.  My usual
experience from both Windows and Unix editors is that the tab key
indents the cursor position (either by a control-character or by
inserting extra white space as required) to the next 'tab-stop' which
is normally defined as a regular series of positions along the text
line - say ever 4,8,16 or however many characters.

In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will jump
the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line leaving a
gap of about 60% page width.  If anyone here has the wisdom or
knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm a perplexed
person waiting for enlightenment... :)

Best wishes,

Mark

-- 
-
 Using TheBat! 1.46c Windows NT 4 0 1381 Service Pack 6
-
 Just4Fun - Freestuff, Humour and More! - http://just4fun.ipfox.com/
-
 Mark R Harding
 The Integrated Systems Group (Vision)
 Department of Electronics & Electrical Engineering
 The University of Edinburgh, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road
 Edinburgh. EH9 3JL. Scotland. U.K.

 Phone:  +44 (0)131 650 5662
 Fax:+44 (0)131 650 6554
 Email:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 URL:http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/
-
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-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:38:08 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

SL> That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.

The origin of this behaviour that is present in most Windows based
editors that may have reason to use is pretty much besides the point.
The reality is that if you are developing an application for Windows
users then you are faced with this unfortunate fact and that is that
most are accustomed to a certain behaviour or functionality.

SL> There is a big difference. AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what
SL> keystrokes do, not editor behavior. There is a difference.

I realize this. I see that I used the word 'Standard' rather loosely.
:-)

>> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

SL> Free caret I considered advanced.

Simple text editing is not advanced use. Notepad and virtually all
windows based editors will behave exactly the way she desires. :-) If
they offer a free caret interface, the four I've had opportunity to use
had the free caret interface toggled off by default. If this is the
case, then the editor cursor behaviour she desires may, in a sense, be
considered standard behaviour. Nuh? :-)

SL> Again, it is not a standard. That is what I said. There is no
SL> standard and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as
SL> one since it isn't published and can change on a whim.

Sure. I agree but that doesn't negate anything I'm trying to get across
to you.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Some nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

iQA/AwUBOcQllvAXeSHuB5k3EQJJVwCeNdqJTty7Y/ltj+ER86orjZimDAkAoI5z
prE+Ht3Kx1npP4vqtOneYOYN
=+3i9
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: RFC gurus? TB trashes attachments

[tracer]

Hello Oliver Sturm,
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:39:46 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Saturday, September 16, 2000, 12:39:46 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Oliver Sturm wrote:


> Hi there,

> I  received  some messages recently created with a version of Outlook.
> They contained one attachment each (an RTF-file) with the content type
> application/msword.   Funny   enough,   TB   trashed  the  attachment
> immediately  as  the  mails hit the mailbox. Only because I knew there
> had  to be one, I was able to open the mail directly on the server the
> second time and save away the source.

> Here are some relevant parts (I can't forward the whole thing, because
> that was registration information in those attachments):

> --- snip -

> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
> boundary="=_NextPart_000_0053_01C01EAD.8238A620"
> X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
> Importance: Normal
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

   <--

   sorry to ask, but why
   is my email address
   there??
> You are subscribed as : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> --=_NextPart_000_0053_01C01EAD.8238A620
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  

> --=_NextPart_000_0053_01C01EAD.8238A620
> Content-Type: application/msword;
> name="C:\Files\Docs\RegInfo1.rtf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="C:\Files\Docs\RegInfo1.rtf"

> {\rtf1\ansi\deff0
> {\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}{\f1\fnil\fcharset0 =

> --[ rest of RTF file cut ]

> --=_NextPart_000_0053_01C01EAD.8238A620--

> --- snip -

> The interesting thing is IMHO that the whole path to the file that was
> originally  attached  is  mentioned in the "name" and "filename" tags.
> But TB should definitely not be deleting the thing unseen just because
> of  a little compliance problem... What's more, I was able to open the
> same  mail  directly from the server (dispatch mail on server ...) and
> the   attachment   was   visible.   It  was  shown  by  the  name  of
> "C:FilesDocsRegInfo1.rtf", though.

> Questions are: Is the format used in that mail even RFC-compliant? Even
> if it's not, do you agree it's still in bug in TB?


> Thanks!

> Oliver Sturm



Best regards,
 
tracer


-- 

Using theBAT 1.46 Beta/3 with Windows NT
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am using FireTalk: 321338
ICQ: on request 
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Our special website hosting/mailservers are now operational



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:15:58PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> This is another thing that I have been indicating to you. In windows,
> the basic behaviour of most editors is really standard. This is why
> TB!'s editor is a real 'culture shocker' for those who are used to using
> different editors for various applications.

That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.  There is a big
difference.  AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what keystrokes do, not editor
behavior.  There is a difference.  

> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such. 

Free caret I considered advanced.

> She has been complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and
> behaviour.  Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is
> pretty standard.

Again, it is not a standard.  That is what I said.  There is no standard
and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as one since it isn't
published and can change on a whim.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:56:33 +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> Jurek answered that one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
KS> fucked up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.
^^

Since this is an international group with people of different cultures
subscribed; attitudes toward profanity may very well be mixed with some
taking offense and others not. To maintain as tranquil and as peaceful
an atmosphere as possible on this list, we have decided to 'outlaw' the
use of profanity here.


>> I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
>> absolutely  terrible.

KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed
KS> fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

I have no personal problems with your query. But with respect to
variable width fonts, it can really create problems with formatting of
the sender not being properly appreciated by the recipient. Variable
width fonts do look better but their use is sender centric so to speak.
What I mean is that the sender admires their message format but the
recipient fails to see what there is to admire because they are using a
different font.

Take for instance. As seen above, I underlined one of your words. If I
had used a variable width font, it really wouldn't make sense doing it
because you wouldn't see it as such at your end.

Copy and paste the text to an editor that supports variable width fonts
and look at it with various variable width fonts to see what I'm getting
at.

I agree that it's a pity that fixed width fonts are generally ugly but
they are better to use for plain text based correspondences. I have
found happiness with 'Lucida Sans Typ' at size 10 using large fonts at a
1600x1200 resolution. I never really felt happy with look until now so
I know what you mean. :-)

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Don't Take Life Seriously, It Is Not Permanent. "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

iQA/AwUBOcQg8/AXeSHuB5k3EQK1WwCfcxre2s/tI0xJdTwcz9Ij5PU8Oz8AoKM9
ln9cVqeD7Ab1kbvoOrZaAk13
=+AWM
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Virtual folder

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Vladimir,

On 17 September 2000 at 01:52:23 GMT +0200 (which was 00:52 where I
live) Vladimir Mincev wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Virtual folder":

VM> How can I (when Virtual folder is opened) all new incoming mail
VM> send directly in Virtual folder not to Mail Ticker?

Yes  -  it's a problem. The virtual folder only contains a snapshot of
the  ticker  contents at the moment it was summoned. I usually Ctrl-U,
Esc,(Mark  current  unread,  close  ticker folder, re-open
ticker folder whenever there has been more mail incoming.

Right now, there's no other way.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Headline - Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

iQA/AwUBOcQfyjnkJKuSnc2gEQJsIACg0XYoff0gNidlIbaPeub39jhuP2UAoKry
qVy3m1Ypw6vcEmaZXBxiNaJs
=o6NW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 17 September 2000 at 02:56:33 GMT +0200 (which was 01:56 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

>> in  plain  text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly at an
>> end.

KS> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences
KS> here.

No  we're not. These are *technical* issues regarding how the *editor*
can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

Maybe not, but in a plain text editor which offer paragraph formatting
you *have* to.

KS> Jurek  answered  that  one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
KS> ** up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.
^^
Sorry  Karin  but  we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
Please do not use language like this here.

KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the
KS> fixed fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

Fixed  font  provides  exact  WYSIWYG  formatting and free caret helps
(most)  or  hinders  (some)  to  format  at will. Something else needs
explaining here: unused space is auto-stripped from the ends of lines.

>> You  can  filter your mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide
>> you with a virtual folder full of *all* of your new mail regardless
>> of  which  folder  it  may have been filtered to. I, for one, would
>> *not*  want  the  current  folder focus to move just because I have
>> more new mail.

KS> 
KS> 

I  keep my ticker DSR (down-stage right) about 1.5" across. It doesn't
impinge too much and lets me at my new mail *real* quick. Ctrl-Shift-T
is  the toggle. Perhaps you can enable/disable it as your interface to
your new mail.

KS> I don't want to have each and every header... I just would love to
KS> have a general overview. "The Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6
KS> new. etc...

The  ticker  is  not what counts - it's the virtual folder it lets you
into.

KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.
I feel your pain.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Chemistry professors never die, they just smell that way!
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

iQA/AwUBOcQe8DnkJKuSnc2gEQK6EQCglnfqoc9C/TME8UK88q0wO4ApOj0AoNDj
y9wmWFZWiKloH7zJl8WqoCQM
=aVZG
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:35:12 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:


SL> This is free caret mode. There is no way to turn it off and no, it
SL> isn't a bug. I'm sure at least half a dozen people have answered
SL> stating that it isn't a bug, that it cannot be turned off and then
SL> have proceeded to tell you how glorious and wonderful it is. Quite
SL> frankly I wish it could be turned off two because I find it
SL> annoying. However, since the majority of the people are wiffing
SL> white out on this matter the authors don't appear inclined to do
SL> anything to make the editor behave in a sane manner.

I'll add my 2 cents here. :-)

I personally do like the free caret interface myself. Also, for me,
TB!'s editor took some time to get accustomed to. It was a period of
adjustment and giving and taking. The end result has been that the
shortcomings for me do not exceed the good points. If TB! were to
support an external editor, I would still use this one.

Be that as it may, I strongly disagree with the free caret interface not
being made optional. If the developers intent was to implement an editor
that does basic things in a non-standard fashion they should either make
these non standard behaviours optional or implement the facility to use
an optional/external editor seamlessly.

It would seem that many potential users have been turned off by the
editor and this is a really unfortunate thing because it's really
unnecessary. Editing is one of the core parts of e-mail management and
the user should be able to exercise some flexibility and control.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Never draw fire, it irritates everyone around you "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

iQA/AwUBOcQd6vAXeSHuB5k3EQIlIwCcC/wpPVw4wV8djWg35dp8x77KivEAoM5C
idxDxcL3pp+gI0G9KsVLoiMc
=w76H
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Nick Andriash]

On September 16, 2000, at 5:56:33 PM, Karin Spaink Wrote:

> I don't want to have each and every header... I
> just would love to have a general overview. "The
> Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...

That feature is one I truly enjoy with TB!... one quick look at my Folder
Tree, and I can see *exactly* how many new messages (unread) I've
received, and which Folder they reside in.

Karin, in View/Split Mode, what do you have selected? I chose Full-height
Account Tree, and it gives me the view you request.


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.46 Beta 6 | PGP 6.5.8 | Win 98 v4.10 ]
Vancouver, B.C. Canada  |  PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE
_

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:47:59 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

SL> TB! loves to count replies for some reason. You can turn that off in
SL> the templates. The exact macro eludes me at the moment. Again, on
SL> Linux, not Windows.

That's %SINGLERE


SL> See, another fine case for an external editor. I never, EVER
SL> understood why Windows clients insisted on including internal
SL> editors on everything under the sun. Complete waste of time.

On editor support specifically, I have no problem with that. The OS
comes with a number of potential editors as is. The user could start
with that and then use another when it's


The modular approach in general is an advanced user approach to
computing. I love it personally. However, for novices and for those
users who have no real interest in becoming advanced users, there's a
definite need and market for the monolithic application.

SL> We've been over this Allie, you're not convincing me because, as I
SL> said, once the user learns one editor they are /done/ learning
SL> editors. Here they never stop having to learn new editors and that
SL> wastes time.

You may be misunderstanding me all along. What I said above is all that
I have been saying. Is there anything there that you disagree with?

>> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
>> And it _is_ non-standard.

SL> Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

This is another thing that I have been indicating to you. In windows,
the basic behaviour of most editors is really standard. This is why
TB!'s editor is a real 'culture shocker' for those who are used to using
different editors for various applications.

SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
SL> features of an editor.

She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such. She has been
complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and behaviour.
Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty
standard.

SL> BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?) says he is
SL> looking for an email client which is tunable yet all his complaints, thus far,
SL> have been with the /editor/?

I think he is a she. :-)

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- ---
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Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

iQA/AwUBOcQbTvAXeSHuB5k3EQI/WQCfZcN9s77hFkMnLDVyM69Q2rLFIooAoMdB
7Vwkj9MG0WE9HW/obm4FHznn
=pFUt
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:56:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.  And as I told Jurek: it
> feels as if somebdy is hammering it in. You _will_ have fixed fomts and even
> if you find your way around them. we will still make your message editor act
> asd if it were fixed font!

Trust us, it is the only way email should be.

> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences here. In my
> country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

Right, it is cultural.  It is the online culture to separate paragraphs
with a CR.  You're online, time to do as the romans do.

> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed fomt as
> the only alternative _and_ free caret?

No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
should.  The only sane solution is to use a fixed-width font so what you see
will closely approximate what they will see.  Again, refer to my signature as
an example.

> I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over everything else -- plus, i
> still need to go to my inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...

Feh, filter report is nasty anyway.  I don't want this stupid window
popping up every minute telling me I have new mail.  Yes, I check every minute
and during the day, on a busy day, I can get more than 1 mail a minute across
my accounts.  The fact that the folder list has hightlights and numbers of new
mail in each folder already tells me that I have new mail and where it is.
Which is also why having new mail trigger going into the inbox is foolish.  Of
the 3-600 messages a day I get on average maybe 5 in each account gets to the
inbox.

If you want it to bouce to your inbox chances are you're not filtering and
are already sitting in your inbox.  If you are filtering then your mail isn't
going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Virtual folder

[Vladimir Mincev]

Hello friends,

You have to make some things clear to me... When I open virtual folder
(by double-clicking on Mail Ticker) when still receiving mail, why
does Mail Ticker still showing messages (new ones)? How can I (when
Virtual folder is opened) all new incoming mail send directly in
Virtual folder not to Mail Ticker? In View>Display I selected Only
unread messages (is that ok?). And how to set that option default?
Every time I start Virtual folder View>Display is set to All messages.

-- 
Best regards,
 Vladimir  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Registration and Version 2

[Chuck Mattsen]

On Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 5:40 PM or thereabouts, BillG
wrote the following about Registration and Version 2:

B> I will need to register my copy of TB! soon. I'm concerned that
B> version 2 will come out right after I pay to register version
B> 1.x. Does TB! have any history of allowing free upgrades? Or will
B> I have to pay more money when version 2 comes out?

I had the same concern ... 10-12 months ago, I think it was ... and
virtually nothing more has happened with respect to version 2 (that
we've seen, anyway) since then, so I'd not worry too much about the
timing.  As to paying extra to upgrade after registration, yeah,
I've heard that's an affirmative, though the closest thing I've seen
to an answer regarding that has been that they haven't decided yet.

Chuck
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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http://www.mindspring.com/~mattsen
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Random Thought/Quote for this Message:
 Evil is a hill.  We stand on ours, speak about others.

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

On 17-09-2000 at 01:27, Marck D. Pearlstone kindly wrote:
> Hi Karin,


KS>> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
KS>> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
KS>> goes down but stays in the same column

> Correct.  This  is  not  a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I
> personally  love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the
> page,  start  typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for
> fixed  pitch  WYSIWYG plain text editing to work.

Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.
And as I told Jurek: it feels as if somebdy is
hammering it in. You _will_ have fixed fomts and
even if you find your way around them. we will
still make your message editor act asd if it were
fixed font!

>  they have, so far, been unable to persuade the
>  authors to make it optional.

Pity ;-)

KS>> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
KS>> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
KS>> parapraph to a section. Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
KS>> indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor
KS>> automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "this"
KS>> (see above) back to the end of the previous line. Or look at my
KS>> garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted
KS>> conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line.

> Then  turn  off  auto-format.  Also,  you  may have to encompass a new
> concept:  in  plain text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly
> at an end.

I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural
differences here. In my country, you don't. And in
my book, you don't either.

> I  don't  indent my paragraph starts so I leave
> auto-format on. Others do indent and have to
> have it off for that purpose.

Ok, so it's an either/or thing.

[cookie won't break]

> Introduce  a  '\n'  (no  quotes)  sequence within the long line at the
> point at which you want it break.

I'll try. Wait Yeah !! Thanks!

KS>> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I
KS>> have Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail
KS>> as plain text, tags included.

> Hang-on  ...  with  tags?  You mean like  ... ? Then that
> doesn't even conform to true HTML standard. You might be talking about
> RTF  (Rich Text Format) mail, which isn't HTML standard and might show
> as  you  describe.  HTML mail usually consists of a plain text message
> with an attachment containing the HTML version of it.

Jurek answered that one. It's old, imported mail.
Something got fucked up in the conversion,. New
mail looks ok.

KS>> 5. When will the developpers add proportional
KS>> fonts? I _hate_ proportional.

> I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
> absolutely  terrible.

There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why
both have the fixed fomt as the only alternative
_and_ free caret?

KS>> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on
KS>> my Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

> Suggestion:  lose  that habit and turn on the ticker (tm) ;-).

I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over
everything else -- plus, i still need to go to my
inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...


Will you please be kind to this silly Eudora
junkie who's trying to kick her habit? ;-)

>You can  filter  your  mail on receipt and use
>the ticker to provide you with a  virtual  folder
>full  of  *all*  of your new mail regardless of
>which  folder  it may have been filtered to. I,
>for one, would *not* want the  current folder
>focus to move just because I have more new mail.




I don't want to have each and every header... I
just would love to have a general overview. "The
Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...


KS>> For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more
KS>> questions while I proceed to explore The Bat.

> TB  is  a  *very* different animal. Enjoy your explorations. There's a
> lot under the bonnet and, usually, pretty good reasons for the quirks.

Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave
exploring... :-0



- K -

-- 


 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different 
things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's 
all.'%0D%0A  -- Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:36:13AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> 1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the Subject line and suddenly
> gets "Re[2]: etc" instead of your standard "Re: etc"?

TB! loves to count replies for some reason.  You can turn that off in the
templates.  The exact macro eludes me at the moment.  Again, on Linux, not
Windows.

> 2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What I added (new CR's) can be
> undone, but what I inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought back.

That always annoyed me.  Call it a bug.  Of course, falls back to my whole
"should use an external editor in the first place" kick.  Already the editor
is annoying you in several ways.  If it were external you'd just continue
running the editor you'd always run.

> I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a reason to give up The Bat
> (and explore other clients). But apart from my personal likes and dislikes,
> I don't think that your argument holds.  Yes, this is a nice feature when
> you make a table; but how often do you make a table as compared to you
> editing your message and moving up and down through it?

See, another fine case for an external editor.  I never, EVER understood
why Windows clients insisted on including internal editors on everything under
the sun.  Complete waste of time.  We've been over this Allie, you're not
convincing me because, as I said, once the user learns one editor they are
/done/ learning editors.  Here they never stop having to learn new editors and
that wastes time.

> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
> And it _is_ non-standard.

Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
features of an editor.  I only know the CUA defines keystrokes for certain
behaviors, nothing more.

> That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a national habit. And I am
> not US or Canadian. To people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to my
> peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A tab is the marker for a
> paragraph, a blank line the marker for a new idea.

On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.

> Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not trying to piss you off.
> But I _am_ desperate for a mail client that has lots of features and can be
> fine-tuned to a huge degree. 

BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?) says he is
looking for an email client which is tunable yet all his complaints, thus far,
have been with the /editor/?  

> The reasons? I get heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
> auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors (so they should be easy
> to correct and my cursor should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
> hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is becoming and I dislike
> the road that they are taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
> Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing and less new (stupid)
> features.

Let me ask you a simple question.  If you could replace the editor with
something else, go out to an external editor so you could choose the editor
you wanted to use (personally, I'd use VIM but most people here don't want to
deal with a VI clone with tons of added features) would you take that route
and keep TB?
 
-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:29:40AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are editing your
> mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it goes down but stays in
> the same column (read: horizontal axis) and doesn't go to the beginning of
> the line or the last words in it

[SNIP]

This is free caret mode.  There is no way to turn it off and no, it isn't
a bug.  I'm sure at least half a dozen people have answered stating that it
isn't a bug, that it cannot be turned off and then have proceeded to tell you
how glorious and wonderful it is.  Quite frankly I wish it could be turned off
two because I find it annoying.  However, since the majority of the people are
wiffing white out on this matter the authors don't appear inclined to do
anything to make the editor behave in a sane manner.

OTOH, I'm also the one who wiffs markers and wants /no/ editor in the
email client at all because everyone's preferences on the perfect editor are
different.  With no editor the authors don't have to deal with it.  They just
toss the email out to whatever editor the user decides which, in theory, will
behave exactly as they want since they get to choose it.

What are you wiffing?  :)

> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I need it

Paragraphs are generally separated by a CR.  So this next line is not part
of a new paragraph although this next one is.

New paragraph.  Of course, I am writing this in vim on Linux launched from
mutt.  IE, an external editor from my mail client which, on this reading,
isn't TB!.  :)

> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows for rotating signatures.

GAAAHHH, Fido-Net flashbacks!!  The horror, the horror!

> The help file is however not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
> file. After some experimenting, I discovered that each entry should have a
> line of its own, no line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.  But
> the cookies show up in one unbroken line whenever I start composing an
> e-mail or hit reply.  How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

\n where you want a newline.

> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I have Options
> --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail as plain text, tags
> included. There is no informationto be found in the FAQ nor in the help
> file. Actually, HTML is not mentioned in the help file at all -- except in
> the description of the new features of the update to The Bat.

Something tells me that this is because the HTML-Mail you're getting sent
is being MIME encapsulated.  I /think/ TB! does the sane thing and at least
require the HTML to be in a MIME attachment so when people are discussion HTML
in email but don't want it displayed (insane idea to the general public, I
know) they can see what is going on.  :)

> 5. When will the developpers add proportional fonts? I _hate_ proportional.
> Suddenly my mail looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround in the FAQ, and I
> might try it, but I like Arial best).

Hopefully never.  You'll note my signature would look ugly in proportional
fonts.  Also mail looks REALLY nasty in proportional fonts.  Something about
the 78 character max wrap and the lines looking really jaggy when crammed into
proportional.  For example, these two lines aren't the same width in
proportional fonts.

1
W
 
> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the Tools menu? As of now, one
> can only find it in the Icon toolbar.

...   Good question.  I'll go flog them for an answer.

> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on my Inbox
> when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

Why?  90% of my new mail doesn't arrive in my inbox.  It arrives in the
folders /outside/ my inbox.  Filters, they are your friends.
 
-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

Thanks for the replies I have been getting so for.
They are helpful and allow me to understand both
the progam an dthe programmer's goals more
clearly, and thus help me to make up my mind.

First of all, new questions:

1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the
Subject line and suddenly gets "Re[2]: etc"
instead of your standard "Re: etc"?


2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What
I added (new CR's) can be undone, but what I
inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought
back.


On 17-09-2000 at 01:03, Januk Aggarwal kindly wrote:
> Karin Spaink typed:

>> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
>> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
>> goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
>> doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it,

> Yes, this is because TB supports a free caret interface.  With this
> interface, you can use arrow keys or the mouse to put your cursor
> anywhere and start typing.  This really helps when you're doing tables
> or lists.

I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a
reason to give up The Bat (and explore other
clients). But apart from my personal likes and
dislikes, I don't think that your argument holds.
Yes, this is a nice feature when you make a table;
but how often do you make a table as compared to
you editing your message and moving up and down
through it?

It would be nice as a bonus, not as an
unturnoffable_standard. And if this indeed one of
The Bat's prime focusses, I will reconsider my
options.

>> as it should (since the space after the last
>> words is empty and not filled with trailing
>> spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can
>> be turned off?

> It's not a bug and it can not be turned off.  If
> you get used to > hitting the home and end keys,
> I think you'll find it pretty convenient.

I am growing more used to it, but I find all the
extra keystrokes a hassle. And it _is_
non-standard.

>> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I
>> want to, I like it, I need it because I rewrite
>> a lot - I can't seem to add a new parapraph to
>> a section.

> New paragraphs need a blank line between them.  This makes your
> message more readable.

That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a
national habit. And I am not US or Canadian. To
people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to
my peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A
tab is the marker for a paragraph, a blank line
the marker for a new idea.

> Also this is necessary due to the way TB  >
handles text editing.  TB is a WYSIWYG text
editor.  What this means > is the end of a line
within a paragraph is marked by the same > codes
as any other end of line.

See why this auto-formatting sucks? I inadvertedly
deleted a chevron that preceded your reply, and
since Ctrl-Z doesn't bring it back, TB's explicit
ignoring of a CR prevents me from reformatting
your quote. I can't put it back in order.

>> I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted conversation on a
>> new line; only when I add a blank line.

> This is as it should be given TB's implementation.

Ok. I consider this a serious flaw, one that by
itself could be enough to look elsewhere.

> See above for
> details.  To work around  this, you might want to get familiar with the
>  shortcut.  This toggles the auto-format feature on
> and off.

Yes, it does! Thanks for that tip, it is highly
valued, and have been using this trick in the rest
of the mail. 'Cept when I reformatted the above,
after having implemented your tip (I had to
reformat, because I lost your chevrons again) each
and every CR just before one of the origial
chevrons, gave me one extra -- which I then had to
delete.

Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not
trying to piss you off. But I _am_ desperate for a
mail client that has lots of features and can be
fine-tuned to a huge degree. The reasons? I get
heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors
(so they should be easy to correct and my cursor
should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is
becoming and I dislike the road that they are
taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing
and less new (stupid) features.


> With the auto format feature on, you can't do
> the following.

>1. Answer e-mail
>2.  Show off free caret power
>3. Send mail
>4. Enjoy.

Ah, but you can... You're referring to tables,
right? When you have an unpoportional font, it's
so easy. Just _type_ a few spaces

>> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows
>> for rotating signatures. The help file is however
>> not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
>> file. After some experimenting, I discovered that
>> each entry should have a line of its own, no
>> line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.
>> But the cookies show up in one unbroken l

Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 16 September 2000 at 00:29:40 GMT +0200 (which was 23:29 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

KS> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
KS> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
KS> goes down but stays in the same column

Correct.  This  is  not  a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I
personally  love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the
page,  start  typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for
fixed  pitch  WYSIWYG plain text editing to work. There are others who
disagree about this but they have, so far, been unable to persuade the
authors to make it optional.

KS> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
KS> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
KS> parapraph to a section. Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
KS> indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor
KS> automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "this"
KS> (see above) back to the end of the previous line. Or look at my
KS> garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted
KS> conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line.

Then  turn  off  auto-format.  Also,  you  may have to encompass a new
concept:  in  plain text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly
at an end.

This is a new paragraph.

I  don't  indent my paragraph starts so I leave auto-format on. Others
do indent and have to have it off for that purpose.

KS> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows for rotating
KS> signatures. The help file is however not too helpful as to the
KS> format of the cookie file. After some experimenting, I discovered
KS> that each entry should have a line of its own, no line-breaks, and
KS> no empty lines between entries. But the cookies show up in one
KS> unbroken line whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
KS> How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

Introduce  a  '\n'  (no  quotes)  sequence within the long line at the
point at which you want it break.

KS> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I
KS> have Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail
KS> as plain text, tags included.

Hang-on  ...  with  tags?  You mean like  ... ? Then that
doesn't even conform to true HTML standard. You might be talking about
RTF  (Rich Text Format) mail, which isn't HTML standard and might show
as  you  describe.  HTML mail usually consists of a plain text message
with an attachment containing the HTML version of it.

KS> 5. When will the developpers add proportional fonts? I _hate_
KS> proportional. Suddenly my mail looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the
KS> workaround in the FAQ, and I might try it, but I like Arial best).

I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
absolutely  terrible.  It  will  make  columnar  tabulated information
completely  illegible.  There  are other reasons for using fixed pitch
font  besides these. There are a number of fixed width fonts that look
fine and are perfectly livable - Andale Mono is what I enjoy.

KS> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the Tools menu? As of
KS> now, one can only find it in the Icon toolbar.

Tools -- Search? It's there.

KS> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on
KS> my Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

Suggestion:  lose  that habit and turn on the ticker (tm) ;-). You can
filter  your  mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide you with a
virtual  folder  full  of  *all*  of your new mail regardless of which
folder  it may have been filtered to. I, for one, would *not* want the
current folder focus to move just because I have more new mail.

KS> For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more
KS> questions while I proceed to explore The Bat.

TB  is  a  *very* different animal. Enjoy your explorations. There's a
lot under the bonnet and, usually, pretty good reasons for the quirks.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Kids Stuff:
Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212
degrees.  There are 180 degrees between freezing
and boiling because there are 180 degrees between
north and south.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Karin Spaink,

On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 12:29:40 AM you wrote:


> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
> goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
> doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it, as
> it should (since the space after the last words is empty and not
> filled with trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can
> be turned off?

There's  been a lot of discussion about this over time, and yes it's a
feature,  but  no,  it  can't be turned off now. It's promised for V2,
IIRC.

> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
> parapraph to a section.Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
> indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor
> automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "this"
> (see above) back to the end of the previous line.

Lots of discussion here, too. The current workaround suggested by some
is to turn auto-format/wrap functions on and off while typing using
the keyboard shortcuts. The current function works on the assumption
that a new paragraph is started after an empty line.

> Or look at my garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of
> the quoted conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line.

As  long as you don't edit your .sig manually, it shouldn't be touched
by the formatting functions.

> 3. How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

Insert "\n" (without the quotes) in the places where it should wrap.

> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I have
> Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail as
> plain text, tags included. There is no informationto be found in the
> FAQ nor in the help file. Actually, HTML is not mentioned in the
> help file at all -- except in the description of the new features of
> the update to The Bat.

Has always worked for me in the rare instances I've used it ;)

> 5. When will the developpers add proportional fonts? I _hate_
> proportional. Suddenly my mail looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround
> in the FAQ, and I might try it, but I like Arial best).

I still hope never. But probably in V2, IIRC.

> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the Tools menu? As of
> now, one can only find it in the Icon toolbar.

It's in Tools/Search, isn't it?

> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on my
> Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

It won't, AFAIK.

> For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more
> questions while I proceed to explore The Bat.

Just keep going ;-)

Oliver Sturm

-- 
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my disk?
-- 
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

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Re: Registration and Version 2

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi BillG,

On 16 September 2000 at 18:40:06 GMT -0400 (which was 23:40 where I
live) BillG wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Registration and Version 2":

B> I  will  need  to  register my copy of TB! soon. I'm concerned that
B> version  2 will come out right after I pay to register version 1.x.

Version 2 is not even in Beta yet. There's no danger of it

B> Does TB! have any history of allowing free upgrades? Or will I have
B> to pay more money when version 2 comes out?

It depends how "close on the heels" it follows.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Well, this day was a total waste of makeup.
 
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  00:29:40 GMT +0200 (which was 3:29 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> I decided to try The Bat for a while.

Welcome.

> It looks very much like the mail client I might switch to, but after
> fiddling with it for a while - and checking the FAQ and the help
> files - I still have a couple of questions.

We'll take a crack at them.  This is the place to ask.

> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
> goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
> doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it,

Yes, this is because TB supports a free caret interface.  With this
interface, you can use arrow keys or the mouse to put your cursor
anywhere and start typing.  This really helps when you're doing tables
or lists.  I might give an example later in this message, we'll see.

> as it should (since the space after the last words is empty and not
> filled with trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can
> be turned off?

It's not a bug and it can not be turned off.  If you get used to
hitting the home and end keys, I think you'll find it pretty
convenient.  I'm at the point where editors that *don't* support free
caret interfaces are really annoying.

> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
> parapraph to a section.

New paragraphs need a blank line between them.  This makes your
message more readable.  Also this is necessary due to the way TB
handles text editing.  TB is a WYSIWYG text editor.  What this means
is the end of a line within a paragraph is marked by the same
codes as any other end of line.  So the auto-format tool looks for two
end of line markings in a row to denote a new paragraph.

> I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted conversation on a
> new line; only when I add a blank line.

This is as it should be given TB's implementation.  See above for
details.  To work around this, you might want to get familiar with the
 shortcut.  This toggles the auto-format feature on
and off.  I only turn on the auto-format feature when I'm going back
to rework a paragraph.  But if I want to make a list, then I turn it
off.  With the auto format feature on, you can't do the following.

   1. Answer e-mail
   2.  Show off free caret power
   3. Send mail
   4. Enjoy.

> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows
> for rotating signatures. The help file is however
> not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
> file. After some experimenting, I discovered that
> each entry should have a line of its own, no
> line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.
> But the cookies show up in one unbroken line
> whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
> How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

In an individual cookie, you can tell TB to insert a line break by
using '\n'.  If you put the following in your cookie file:

Personal Plan:\n To avoid lucidity, clarity and sanity at all costs.

It would be inserted as:

Personal Plan:
 To avoid lucidity, clarity and sanity at all costs.


> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto
> view" and while I have Options --> HTML auto view
> on, I get to see all the html-mail as plain text,
> tags included.

Is this mail that you imported from Eudora?  I think Eudora does some
weird things to HTML mail so that it can not be imported correctly.
If you get new HTML mail, it should be presented correctly.  Note that
TB will not go out onto the net to get image files for you.  This is a
web browser's job, and so TB will only display images that are
sent along with the message.  As a result, you may prefer to turn off
HTML auto-view.  Then when you get HTML mail, just double click on the
icon in the message view pane.  You'll be sent to your default browser
to view the HTML properly.

> 5. When will the developpers add proportional
> fonts? I _hate_ proportional. Suddenly my mail
> looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround in the FAQ,
> and I might try it, but I like Arial best).

We're just going over this in another thread.  From A. Curtis Martin's
message from Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:22:51 -0500,

Subject: Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

ACM>  Note however, that TB!'s editor cannot use a variable width font
ACM> even if you force it to via the registry hack. Everything looks like
ACM> gibberish. I'm quite sure that it has to do with the free caret
ACM> interface. You'll notice that with the editor, you may place your cursor
ACM> anywhere in the editor window and start typing. The character positions
ACM> seem to be already mapped out in a grid type fashion. A fixed width font
ACM> makes this possible.


> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the
> Tools menu? As of now, one can only find it in the
> Icon toolbar.

 It is, Tools ->

Registration and Version 2

[BillG]

Hi All.

I will need to register my copy of TB! soon.  I'm concerned that version 2
will come out right after I pay to register version 1.x.  Does TB! have any
history of allowing free upgrades?  Or will I have to pay more money when
version 2 comes out?

Thanks,
Bill Grant

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New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

Since  I  don't  like  the way that my fave e-mail
program  Eudora  is  heading, I decided to try The
Bat  for a while. It looks very much like the mail
client  I might switch to, but after fiddling with
it for a while - and checking the FAQ and the help
files  - I still have a couple of questions.

I hope that more experienced users can help me.


1. If you move your cursor down in the window in
which you are editing your mail (e.g. move it down
to the next empty line), it goes down but stays in
the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the
last words in it, as it should (since the space
after the last words is empty and not filled with
trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that
can be turned off? I find this very annoying,
especially since I tend to edit my messages a
_lot_ while composing them, and afterwards my
cursor is never where I expect it to be. Take
Word, Eudora or Agent: they all behave according
to standard, but The Bat doesn't. I expect my
cursor to move to the beginning of a line when
there are no spaces in that line.


2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want
to, I like it, I need it because I rewrite a lot -
I can't seem to add a new parapraph to a
section.Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
indent, and continue: (example: this).
See? The Bat's editor automatically purges the
carriage return and moves the "this" (see
above) back to the end of the previous line. Or
look at my garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on
a new bit of the quoted conversation on a new
line; only when I add a blank line.


3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows
for rotating signatures. The help file is however
not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
file. After some experimenting, I discovered that
each entry should have a line of its own, no
line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.
But the cookies show up in one unbroken line
whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?


4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto
view" and while I have Options --> HTML auto view
on, I get to see all the html-mail as plain text,
tags included. There is no informationto be found
in the FAQ nor in the help file. Actually, HTML is
not mentioned in the help file at all -- except in
the description of the new features of the update
to The Bat.


5. When will the developpers add proportional
fonts? I _hate_ proportional. Suddenly my mail
looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround in the FAQ,
and I might try it, but I like Arial best).


6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the
Tools menu? As of now, one can only find it in the
Icon toolbar.


7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to
automatically focus on my Inbox when new mail has
arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)


For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure
I'll have more questions while I proceed to
explore The Bat.


- K -

-- 

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can
make words mean so many different things.' 'The
question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be
master - that's all.   -- Lewis Carroll: Through
the Looking-Glass



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Re: Reply templates

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:58:20 -0500, Chuck Mattsen wrote:

CM> I think the original question was how to get that blank line to show
CM> the quotation marker, as well, rather than remain blank ... your
CM> answer seems to say that it does, but on my end here it does not.

CM> What am I misunderstanding in this exchange?

You aren't at all. I didn't realize that TB! doesn't do something which
should be so obviously apparent. :-) I do agree that the quotes should
be inserted.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
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Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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Re: Reply templates

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:13:24 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

B>> 2) The %Quotes macro puts the ">" character on every non-blank line
B>> of the original text. I prefer to have the ">" character on EVERY
B>> line of the included text, not just the ones that aren't blank. How
B>> can I do that?

MDP> You know, I hadn't realised that.

I didn't either. :-  I succeeded in confusing the others with it.

- --
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Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
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Re: Replying to your message dated Thursday, September 14, 2000, at 9:54 AM

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:45:42 +0200, Dierk Haasis wrote:


DH> Can anybody tell me how humans survived so long without all this -
DH> on normal paper with nothing else but a pen or pencil?

E-mail has little to do with survival. It has more to do with a
convenient way of corresponding. Although, mind you, society is getting
sophisticated to the point where e-mail is considered a need for
'survival' as things are now. :-)

If you wish to include basic text in your mail then fine. No one is
stopping you. If you wish mail coming your way to only be in basic text,
then fine, let it be known and/or set up your filters. If others wish to
enrich what they send, which is similar to using decorated paper in
snail mail, spraying perfume on letters and envelopes, as in snail mail
etc., why belittle it or shed it in such a negative light? People walk
around with and own all sorts of gadgetry, do all sorts of things,
present papers, and do lectures with the aid of visual enhancements
which aren't really 'needed' as you put it. May as well do away with
PowerPoint and it's ilk eh, since all you really need is some plain text
on a white background to get your point across? But then again (to use
your line of argument), you're there and they can listen to you, so why
bother with the visual aid at all? It's not about need all the time. It
can be about presentation and or style.

Also, that argument about why not include everything else is rather weak
one. It's a universal template for skeptics resistance to any form of
change or introduction of new ideas. Ideas that aim to enhance what's
already presently in use. "When will it stop?" they say. One thing will
lead to another. 

IMO, there is a place for composing mail in rich text or sending HTML
mail. However, it simply shouldn't be routine and is at present being
very much abused. Abused because HTML mail comes at a cost. A cost that
most who use it do not recognize. There's the bandwidth cost that is not
appreciated when one analyses things on an individualised basis. The
cost on bandwidth is appreciated when one considers the amount of extra
megabytes being carried across networks when millions use HTML e-mail
unnecessarily. The other cost is that you are forcing the reader at the
other end to read the message as you are seeing it. E-mail has
exonerated me from having to read poor penmanship and fonts that I
dislike. I can read messages with my own fonts and background colour.
The recipients cannot read HTML e-mail with their own settings. You
should consider each time you're sending an HTML formatted message if
you really think it's important or meaningful that the recipient see the
message the way that you're seeing it, i.e., with the same font's, font
sizes etc.

I got some HTML e-mail Christmas greetings and birthday greetings which
I found to be rather nice. if you have other tools or ways to enhance
your communication then by all means I don't see the problem with using
it *appropriately*. The problem here is with appropriate use. The way
HTML support is implemented in most of the commonly used e-mail clients,
encourages inappropriate use of HTML e-mail. *That* is my grouse against
it. It's actually inappropriate in most situations in which e-mail is
exchanged. IMO, a default setting to compose mail in HTML format should
not have been provided in a general purpose e-mail client.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
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=n3ML
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Re: The Bat & PDAs

[Marek Mikus]

Hello all,
Saturday, September 16, 2000, Benoit Darcy wrote:

> Is there any chance to see a next release of The Bat! that handles
> mobile devices like PocketPC or PalmComputing platforms (built-in
> function or conduit application dedicated to mail synchronization for
> example).

Yes :-))

Stefan did first steps in development of MAPI support and now is
possible to download betaversion, which support function for sending
WWW pages and links from OE. Stefan is on vacation now, please wat 2-3
weeks for new informations about it.

BTW Stefan has Palm and he need it too :-))

-- 

Bye

Marek Mikus

Using the best The Bat! 1.46c
under the worst Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
Intel Celeron 266 MHz, 32 MB RAM

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Re: Reply templates

[BillG]

Chuck Mattsen wrote:
> I think I'm misunderstanding either the question/stated desire here or
> your response.

> If you reply to this message, I think you'll see a paragraph starting
> with
>  > I think ...
> followed by a blank line, then another quoted paragraph starting
> with
>  > If you reply ...

> I think the original question was how to get that blank line to show
> the quotation marker, as well, rather than remain blank ... your
> answer seems to say that it does, but on my end here it does not.

> What am I misunderstanding in this exchange?

You understand perfectly.  I WANT the blank lines to have the ">" character
on them.  Mr. Martin's response confused me as well.  I think the gist is:
I can't do what I want to do.


A. Curtis Martin wrote:
> On a moderator note as well: Please avoid starting an new subject by
> replying to a message

Yes - you are right of course.  Sorry about that.

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Re: Reply templates

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi BillG,

On  16  September  2000 at 14:08:10 GMT -0400 (which was 19:08 where I
live)  BillG  wrote  and  made  these  points on the subject of "Reply
templates":

B> 1) Can the numbering after the "Re" be turned off? I don't
B> particularly care for the "Re[2]", "Re[3]", etc A simple "Re"
B> is sufficient IMO.

Yes - use the %SINGLERE template macro in your reply templates.

B> 2) The %Quotes macro puts the ">" character on every non-blank line
B> of the original text. I prefer to have the ">" character on EVERY
B> line of the included text, not just the ones that aren't blank. How
B> can I do that?

You know, I hadn't realised that. I quite glad that it doesn't. Proper
netiquette  calls  for the interspersing of responses. Not quoting the
blank  lines  makes this practice *much* easier. And, in answer to the
question, no I don't know any way of changing that behaviour.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Kids Stuff:
Thunder is a rich source of loudness.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

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Re: Reply templates

[Chuck Mattsen]

On Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 1:42 PM or thereabouts, A .
Curtis Martin wrote the following about Reply templates:

B>> 2) The %Quotes macro puts the ">" character on every non-blank
B>> line of the original text. I prefer to have the ">" character on
B>> EVERY line of the included text, not just the ones that aren't
B>> blank. How can I do that?

ACM> You can't. That is how TB! quotes and I agree with it. Blank
ACM> lines between paragraphs were inserted by the sender and should
ACM> be quoted as well. If the quotes aren't there then I and others
ACM> will begin to assume that you may have deleted blocks of text
ACM> etc.

I think I'm misunderstanding either the question/stated desire here
or your response.

If you reply to this message, I think you'll see a paragraph starting
with
 > I think ...
followed by a blank line, then another quoted paragraph starting
with
 > If you reply ...

I think the original question was how to get that blank line to show
the quotation marker, as well, rather than remain blank ... your
answer seems to say that it does, but on my end here it does not.

What am I misunderstanding in this exchange?

Chuck
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Chuck Mattsen[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mindspring.com/~mattsen
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Random Thought/Quote for this Message:
 Keep your words soft and sweet, in case you have to eat them.

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Re: Reply templates

[Tony Boom]

This message: 16/09/2000 19:41 GMT.

Hello BillG,


  A reminder of what BillG ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  16 September 2000 at 14:08:10 GMT -0400

B> 1) Can the numbering after the "Re" be turned off?  I don't particularly
B> care for the "Re[2]", "Re[3]", etc  A simple "Re" is sufficient IMO.


  Put this in your reply template.  %SINGLERE



-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
 Windows 98 ME 4.90 Build 3000 
 

 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re[2]: Replying to your message dated Thursday, September 14, 2000, at 9:54 AM

[Dierk Haasis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Thomas!

Saturday, September 16, 2000, 6:39:08 AM, you wrote:


> Spare me. :-( Even if I had an email client who could read this, I
> would not want to receive any emails with Flash components.

For all those who support the idea of HTML in e-mail: With it the
possibility exists to incorporate things like Flash, MPEG other
multimedia crap (sorry) and even orders to open up external programs.

Isn't it funny that most people are happy with OE/IE/NN and are always
wondering why there are so many security holes?

And - to round out my Flash statement from before - why should we stop
at HTML? Why not DHTML, XML or even ActiveX for e-mail?

Can anybody tell me how humans survived so long without all this - on
normal paper with nothing else but a pen or pencil? Has anybody ever
thought why the basics of the Latin/Greek alphabet are so successful
all over the world while picture based "alphabet" are relatively few
and not widespread? Just look in a good linguistics book and the
possibilities of the symbolic representation (as in letter based
alphabets) become obvious.

One for the road, it is very easy to highlight words in plain text,
either by style (that is especially word order) or by symbols like *
or ".


- --
Using The Bat! 1.46
under Windows 95 4.0 Build
1212  C

Dierk Haasis

America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone from barbarism  to 
degeneration without the usual interval of civilization. (Georges Clemeceau)

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Version: PGP 6.5i

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Re: Reply templates

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:08:10 -0400, BillG wrote:

B> More newbie questions..

Yes. :-)

B> 1) Can the numbering after the "Re" be turned off?  I don't particularly
B> care for the "Re[2]", "Re[3]", etc  A simple "Re" is sufficient IMO.

In your reply templates, put the macro %SINGLERE. You may put it at the
end of the template.

B> 2)  The %Quotes macro puts the ">" character on every non-blank line of the
B> original text.  I prefer to have the ">" character on EVERY line of the
B> included text, not just the ones that aren't blank.  How can I do that?

You can't. That is how TB! quotes and I agree with it. Blank lines
between paragraphs were inserted by the sender and should be quoted as
well. If the quotes aren't there then I and others will begin to assume
that you may have deleted blocks of text etc.

- 
On a moderator note as well:
Please avoid starting an new subject by replying to a message,
especially if your message has nothing to do with the message to which
you replied. If you wish to post a new message, create a new message and
address it to the list. The reason that I ask this is because many TB!
users, including me, thread their messages and also thread by
references. Your message was associated with another and yet the content
was not remotely related.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "The buck doesn't even slow down here! "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

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p0Hef2fdvUmb1LLpK17rU7/y
=W2bC
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Reply templates

[BillG]

More newbie questions..

1) Can the numbering after the "Re" be turned off?  I don't particularly
care for the "Re[2]", "Re[3]", etc  A simple "Re" is sufficient IMO.

2)  The %Quotes macro puts the ">" character on every non-blank line of the
original text.  I prefer to have the ">" character on EVERY line of the
included text, not just the ones that aren't blank.  How can I do that?

Thanks all,
Bill Grant

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Re[2]: Registered user features?

[Östen Häggmark]

> Oh,  I don't think there was ever an intent to deceive here.

No I don't think so either. I overreacted there, I apologize sincerly.

I think that line is just one of those loose ends - some day it will
be tied up, I'm sure.

As earlier said - the one thing TB isn't lacking is features.

-- 
Regards,
 Östen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   

 TB! 1.45, Windows 98

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Re: Registered user features?

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Östen,

On 16 September 2000 at 17:22:58 GMT +0200 (which was 16:22 where I
live) Östen Häggmark wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Registered user features?":

ÖH> I realize I may appear petty-minded here but...telling people you'll
ÖH> get things if you pay, and then not delivering them, that's
ÖH> called...well you know what it's called. :-)

ÖH> Also, a note that the trial version is fully functional would, at least
ÖH> for me, give a more favorable impression.

Hmm. I always thought that multiple account support was disabled after
the  evaluation  period expired and *that* was the "features available
only for registered users".

ÖH> The hackers will hack in any case. The people who is willing to pay
ÖH> should be treated in a honest way.

Oh,  I don't think there was ever an intent to deceive here. If what I
say about multiple accounts is not true, it certainly used to be. They
may  not  have kept the prompt up to date with reality if that has now
changed.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: V2????

[Marek Mikus]

Hello all,
Saturday, September 16, 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Since I just subscribed to this list, could anyone please tell me
> something about v2. is it currently under development or is it just a
> planned project? or what will be the major changes in that new
> version?

some weeks ago Stefan told me, big part of version 2 is finished, but
some things must be resolved and implemented yet. Wait for his answer
for 1-2 weeks. He promised me new informations after his vacaition :-)

Major changes are IMAP4, scripting and new interface builder.

-- 

Bye

Marek Mikus

Using the best The Bat! 1.46c
under the worst Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
Intel Celeron 266 MHz, 32 MB RAM

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Re: Registered user features?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Östen,

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:22:58 +0200 GMT (16/09/2000, 23:22 +0800 GMT),
Östen Häggmark wrote:

ÖH> I realize I may appear petty-minded here but...telling people you'll
ÖH> get things if you pay, and then not delivering them, that's
ÖH> called...well you know what it's called. :-)

Everything has been delivered - only earlier than you thought. ;-)

ÖH> The hackers will hack in any case. The people who is willing to pay
ÖH> should be treated in a honest way.

You're pretty right. I think they will change the text soon.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re[2]: Registered user features?

[Östen Häggmark]

I realize I may appear petty-minded here but...telling people you'll
get things if you pay, and then not delivering them, that's
called...well you know what it's called. :-)

Also, a note that the trial version is fully functional would, at least
for me, give a more favorable impression.

The hackers will hack in any case. The people who is willing to pay
should be treated in a honest way.

ÖH>> "The registration gives you the right to use The Bat! after the 30-day
ÖH>> trial period, receive technical support and use features available
ÖH>> only for registered users."

ÖH>> If there are no such features, maybe that last bit should be removed.

TF> Or maybe not . Makes people think they should pay and not just hack
TF> their way in. :-)

-- 
Regards,
 Östen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   

 TB! 1.45, Windows 98

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Re: V2????

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi zefram,

On 16 September 2000 at 12:43:20 GMT +0200 (which was 11:43 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject
of "V2":

zwd> Since I just subscribed to this list, could anyone please tell me
zwd> something about v2. is it currently under development or is it
zwd> just a planned project? or what will be the major changes in that
zwd> new version?

There  is  an interview with Stefan Tanurkov published on the main FAQ
web site which deals with this in depth and is the only word we really
have on the topic.

See  http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/FAQ.html  for  details  or
http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/interview.html  to  go straight
to the interview page.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 30 years.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Re: attachments opening

[John Phillips]

Hello

Thursday, September 14, 2000, 10:57:18 PM, you wrote:

MF> Hi!

MF> I've got the following problem with the Bat:

MF> Is there any way to -automatically- open attached ".msg"-files? We
MF> receive lots of "undeliverable"-mails in our support area and it's very
MF> annoying to open the message and double-click the ".msg"-file.

MF> I think this would be no problem, if the ".msg"-file is plain text.
MF> Attached ".txt"-files can be opened..

MF> thanks in advance


I also have a problem in that I cannot read the .msg files.  What
should be the correct file association?

-- 
Regards
John Phillips

Saturday, 16 September 200022:12:09  (Eastern Australian Time)
Bat! version 1.45  Windows 98  Build 


Jesus Saves . . . He passes to Moses, he shoots, he scores.

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V2????

[zefram]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: MD5

Since I just subscribed to this list, could anyone please tell me
something about v2. is it currently under development or is it just a
planned project? or what will be the major changes in that new
version?

regards
 marcus

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Version: 2.6
Comment: visit http://www.zefram.de

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Re: V2????

[Jason Thompson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello zefram and everyone else...

zwd> Since I just subscribed to this list, could anyone please tell me
zwd> something about v2. is it currently under development or is it just a
zwd> planned project? or what will be the major changes in that new
zwd> version?

Some information about v2 is revealed in an interview with The Bat!
developers:
http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/interview.html

- --
Jason Thompson   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP Key ID: 0x3084BEC4[The Bat! v1.46c]
- ---
Sine of the Beast: 0.809016994

//The Bat! v1.46c
//Win98 v4.10 build 1998
//AMD K6-2 400mhz 128mb

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Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Luca,

On  16  September  2000 at 12:56:32 GMT +0200 (which was 11:56 where I
live)  Luca wrote and made these points on the subject of "Reasons why
html mail shouldn't be used":

L> I'd  like  to  use smaller fonts (possibly variable pitch ones, I'm
L> used  to  arial  narrow)  for  column  titles,  particularly in the
L> headers list pane (from, subject, etc). Is that possible?

Not  AFAIK.  I  was  only  talking about the message viewer and editor
fonts  when I spoke about using variable fonts. I believe column title
fonts  are taken from the system default dialog font, which is usually
MS  Sans Serif. Having experimented with the "Appearance" settings, it
seems  that  the Icon settings affect explorer column headings but not
those within TB, so it seems that that font is hard coded.

L> I just tried the tip in the faq page about the two registry keys:
L> HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Editor\Font
L> HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Rich Text

L> I can't find the second one, supposing it refers to fonts used in
L> different places than the editor. I also tried to add values manually,
L> with no effect. Any hint?

Can't  be  done  I'm  afraid.  These  settings only affect the message
editor and viewer fonts.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Could it be that all those trick-or-treaters
wearing sheets aren't going as ghosts but as mattresses?
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:56:32 +0200, Luca wrote:

L> I'd like to use smaller fonts (possibly variable pitch ones, I'm used
L> to arial narrow) for column titles, particularly in the headers list
L> pane (from, subject, etc). Is that possible?

L> I just tried the tip in the faq page about the two registry keys:
L> HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Editor\Font
L> HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Rich Text

L> I can't find the second one, supposing it refers to fonts used in
L> different places than the editor. I also tried to add values manually,
L> with no effect. Any hint?

The present editor font that I use (Lucida Sans Typ) is not listed as a
fixed width font, though it really is. I therefore had to hack the
registry to use it. I only changed the font for the first of the two
values you gave above, ie,
  HKEY CURRENT USER\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Editor\Font

You have to first exit TB!, make the registry change, and then restart
TB!. Note however, that TB!'s editor cannot use a variable width font
even if you force it to via the registry hack. Everything looks like
gibberish. I'm quite sure that it has to do with the free caret
interface. You'll notice that with the editor, you may place your cursor
anywhere in the editor window and start typing. The character positions
seem to be already mapped out in a grid type fashion. A fixed width font
makes this possible.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "I.R.S.: We've got what it takes to take what you've got! "

Using TB! v1.46c «» Win2k Pro SP1

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Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

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3MVBnFNNElWLVAxfEVKdYMLD
=Yj4o
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Re: Mail lost in a "time warp".

[Roel]

Hi Januk

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:37:48 -0700GMT
   (which was 16/09/2000, 12:37 +0100GMT for me),

you wrote:

JA> But the only way messages expire is if you purge the folder.  Purging
JA> automatically compresses the folder as well.  So...

Not always:
The 'purge on exit' option (in the folder-options) does not compress
your folders...
The 'purge all folders' option (main menu/folder) does compress
them...

So you might be lucky :-)
-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Speelplein Aboe http://www.aboe.zzn.com *

 If you cannot convince them, confuse them.

 Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/5 on Windows NT 5.0 build 2195 Service Pack 1
 with a Amd Athlon 700 @ 256 MB & 23Gb Hd



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Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

[Luca]

16/09/2000, Marck D. Pearlstone:
> You  can use variable pitch fonts by employing a registry hack (ask if
> you want it - I will publish it for you).

I'd like to use smaller fonts (possibly variable pitch ones, I'm used
to arial narrow) for column titles, particularly in the headers list
pane (from, subject, etc). Is that possible?

I just tried the tip in the faq page about the two registry keys:
HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Editor\Font
HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Rich Text

I can't find the second one, supposing it refers to fonts used in
different places than the editor. I also tried to add values manually,
with no effect. Any hint?

-- 
Luca

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Re: Mail lost in a "time warp".

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Marck,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  10:58:42 GMT +0100 (which was 2:58 AM
where I live) witnesses say Marck D. Pearlstone typed:

> You  could, folder by folder, go through and "Browse deleted messages"
> to  retrieve the missing messages (unless you have also compressed the
> folders). Just a thought

But the only way messages expire is if you purge the folder.  Purging
automatically compresses the folder as well.  So...

 


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Graham,

On 16 September 2000 at 10:17:43 GMT +0100 (which was 10:17 where I
live) Graham wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used":

>> Hey - somebody else can put emphasis in plain text :-). *I*
>> understood it just fine.

G> I agree, but why, oh why, can't I have the convenience of using
G> Trutype fonts??

I'm  sure  you realize that you can use TT fonts. It is variable width
fonts that aren't listed - for *very* good reason.

You  can use variable pitch fonts by employing a registry hack (ask if
you want it - I will publish it for you). Alternatively (as many of us
have  done)  you  can go cruising for decent fixed pitch TT font (like
Andale  Mono).  You  see,  with  fixed pitch fonts, WYSIWYG plain text
becomes  a  reality.  IMHO  that  is  one  of  the real glories of TB!
Allowing  variable  fonts  would  break  the right, centre and justify
presentation  modes  and  only allow left aligned paragraphs. That's a
lot of feature to lose.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Kids Stuff:
Lime is a green-tasting rock.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

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ItKJ6hIpLy2GV4a2xHenuGGg
=sIhV
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Mail lost in a "time warp".

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Christian,

On 16 September 2000 at 01:47:19 GMT -0500 (which was 07:47 where I
live) Christian Dysthe wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Mail lost in a "time warp".":

CD> I do not know how it could be done, but it should be a way to make
CD> The Bat! not expire mail, or at least prompt you, if the time and
CD> date changes drastically from one session to another since the
CD> result may be so "dramatic".

You  could, folder by folder, go through and "Browse deleted messages"
to  retrieve the missing messages (unless you have also compressed the
folders). Just a thought

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key:  ]

 Headline - Reagan Wins on Budget, But More Lies Ahead
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured
Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness!

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/nmPy3UT11WABrlIPGpdovYO
=zCGA
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Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Graham,

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:17:43 +0100 GMT (16/09/2000, 17:17 +0800 GMT),
Graham wrote:

G> I agree, but why, oh why, can't I have the convenience of using
G> Trutype fonts??

I understand you can use TrueType as long as it's fixed width. ;-)
But don't worry too much, in v2 you will be able to choose your own
external editor.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re[2]: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

[Graham]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> n Friday, September 15, 2000, 12:29:09 AM, you wrote:
>
JD>> TB! still doesn't support bold and underline because it's
*plain*
>
> Hey - somebody else can put emphasis in plain text :-). *I*
> understood it just fine.

I agree, but why, oh why, can't I have the convenience of using
Trutype fonts??

Graham

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Version: PGP 6.5i

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=A1ca
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Re: Mail lost in a "time warp".

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Christian,


On  Friday, September 15, 2000  at  01:47:19 GMT -0500 (which was 11:47 PM
where I live) witnesses say Christian Dysthe typed:

 

>   I do not know how it could be done, but it should be a way to make
>   The Bat! not expire mail, or at least prompt you, if the time and date
>   changes drastically from one session to another since the result may
>   be so "dramatic".

 But what is dramatic?  What if you just don't start up TB for a
 couple of weeks?  (I know, nobody on this list would dare leave their
 e-mail for a vacation, but it could happen.)  TB is just doing what
 you told it to do.  Always remember that famous last word, backup.

 The only way to protect yourself sufficiently is backups.  That way,
 you set the schedule, and you decide what's important.
 

>   I do not "blame" The Bat! for this happening to me, but I would love
>   the program even more (is that possible?) if it didn't let me be
>   that foolish! :)

 Mass deletions could be treated with caution, but I think that's
 something the program really should not enforce on its own.



-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Delete Attachments

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Ming-Li,

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:31:09 -0700 GMT (14/09/2000, 20:31 +0800 GMT),
Ming-Li wrote:

>> Some of these messages are HTML, which is shown as an attachment,
>> as I have auto-view disabled. So I routinely right-click on the
>> attachment and delete it. It disappears from the folder view.

>> Having read the message, I close the folder, and there in the
>> pre-view pane, the attachment is still there! I have to delete it
>> again.

ML> I think it's a bug where TB forgets to update the display. Try go to
ML> another folder and back and they should be gone. No need to delete
ML> twice.

You were right on the spot. :-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: How do I disable the attachment warning?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Christian,

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:55:31 -0500 GMT (16/09/2000, 14:55 +0800 GMT),
Christian Dysthe wrote:

CD>   I was wondering how I can disable the warning I get every time I
CD>   open an attachment. Yes, I know the warning is a good thing, but I
CD>   do not have time for it (and I know what may infect my system
CD>   anyway).

This question has been asked many times and should probably be taken
into the FAQ.

Quote from my message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 6
September 2000 in reply to Graham Foster's question (also quoted):

GF>>  I know I should know this.. but where in the registry do I switch off
GF>>  the 'dangerous attachments' warning that is driving me to
GF>>  distraction. (I know about shift open - I just forget to use it :-)

TF> HKCU/Software/RIT/The Bat!/ProtectAllowOpen, .../ProtectWarnOpen,
TF> .../ProtectDisableOpen.
TF>
TF> HTH.

OTOH, since RITlabs will stop using the registry, maybe there will be
a dialogue box in the software's GUI that can be invoked. That would
be really cool. ;-)

If you don't want to hack the registry, you can hold shift while
opening the attachments. This will override the uncle feature.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re[2]: and a pgp question

[Jason Thompson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Thomas and everyone else...

TF> It doesn't. That's Steve's point.

Ah. I assumed the wrong convention of "should". My apologies.

- --
Jason Thompson   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP Key ID: 0x3084BEC4[The Bat! v1.46c]
- ---
At first there was nothing. Then God said,
'Let there be light!' Then there was still
nothing. But you could see it.

//The Bat! v1.46c
//Win98 v4.10 build 1998
//AMD K6-2 400mhz 128mb

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4MHbgFMdTFkeywRs7TocDGFP
=hlFa
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: How do I disable the attachment warning?

[Juergen Frisch]

 Saturday, September 16, 2000, 08:55, Christian Dysthe wrote:

>   I was wondering how I can disable the warning I get every time I
>   open an attachment. Yes, I know the warning is a good thing, but I
>   do not have time for it (and I know what may infect my system
>   anyway).

Hello Christian,

   you can change this in the registry:

   HCU | Software | RIT | The Bat!: "ProtectAllowOpen",
   "ProtectDisableOpen", "ProtectWarnOpen".

-- 

Best regards,
Jürgen

--
The Bat! 1.46

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