Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:15:54 [GMT -0500] (8:15 AM EST here) Robert Silver wrote: > Why can't the bat with all its extra features many of them nice but > some of them not that important do the following: > (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner > (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double > clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that > feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing > browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. TheBat! has split the difference on this and supplied HTML interpretation within TheBat! Instead of double-clicking the message.html icon beside the mesage to start your browser, click on the message.html tab below the message. > (3) Read NNTP News Groups I've lost patience with the slowness of browser newsreaders. There's no reason to think that a newsreader incorporated within TheBat! would be any better. Someone on a newsgroup suggested that it would be better to use Xnews, a newsreader designed specifically for reading the news. I tried Xnews. After a few days of experimentation I found that I like Xnews. I'll pass this tip on to you: Xnews (available free at http://xnews.newsguy.com/) is a fast and convenient news reader, in the same sense that TheBat! is a fast and convenient mail reader. > (4) Improve the capability of backing up and restoring configuration > information. It should be easy to backup any feature be it folder > Sorting FILTERS etc.. TheBat! | Tools | Backup Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition on Windows 95 4.0 Build a -- Daniel A. Grunberg Kensington, Maryland, USA homepage: www.nyx.net/~dgrunber/ Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Robert Silver, On or about Friday, January 17, 2003 at 08:15:54GMT -0500 (which was 8:15 AM in the tropics where I live) Robert Silver blithered: RS> Why can't the bat with all its extra features many of them nice but RS> some of them not that important do the following: RS> (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner God forbid! This is why I LIKE TB! Goodbye to bloatmail!! I will soon be implementing a filter that sends to trash and deletes any e-mail containing HTML - PERIOD! RS> (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double RS> clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that RS> feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing RS> browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. This involves serious viral risk, of which TB! has little or none. I want to see it stay that way! RS> (3) Read NNTP News Groups One word - AGENT! RS> (4) Improve the capability of backing up and restoring configuration RS> information. It should be easy to backup any feature be it folder RS> Sorting FILTERS etc.. This one's covered - Tools -> Backup -> Checkboxes Wanting everything rolled into one is what causes vulnerability and bloatware. Leave TB just as it is, a simple and efficient mail client, as it should be! All the things you mentioned are the very reason TB! is gaining poularity. We don't WANT a MS Outhouse clone, that's why we LEFT! -- Warmest tropical wishes, Spike "Of all the animals, the boy is the most unmanageable." - Plato -- Flying in the stratosphere with The Bat! V1.61 on Windows 2000 Vers. 5 0 Build 2195 Service Pack 3 -- Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hi, Robert Silver wrote in msgid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : > Subject: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTML > documents or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features (1) HTML was never intended for email use, it is mostly being abused in an email context (2) Reading/writing USENET news is something different than handling email Those are not "standard email features". They have been wrapped into email clients by other companies and they made a bad job at it and have thus set a quasi-standard which led you to believe those are standard features. Anyway... > (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner > (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double > clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that > feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing > browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. RIT Labs has given in and (1) and (2) will come in future releases. :( > (3) Read NNTP News Groups Many prefer using a separate client for that, yet future releases might also implement that. Regards, Markus -- Using The Bat! 1.63 Beta/4 under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Markus Gloede wrote: > (1) HTML was never intended for email use, it is mostly being abused in > an email context > > (2) Reading/writing USENET news is something different than handling > email > > Those are not "standard email features". They have been wrapped into > email clients by other companies and they made a bad job at it and have > thus set a quasi-standard which led you to believe those are standard > features. Agree. > Anyway... > > > (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner > > (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double > > clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that > > feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing > > browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. > > RIT Labs has given in and (1) and (2) will come in future releases. > :( Yes, HTML editor will be in V2. But The Bat! has its own safe HTML viewer with CCS and CCS2 support, which was developed directly by Ritlabs and as I know, TB will not use another HTML engine for viewing messages! I don't see any reason to use another HTML viewer. -- Marek Mikus Czech Support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
* Robert Silver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Why can't the bat with all its extra features many of them nice but > some of them not that important do the following: > (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner Because TB! users don't want that. > (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double > clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that > feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing > browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. Because TB! users don't want the HTML engine to connect to the outer world. > (3) Read NNTP News Groups TB! is no newsreader. Why don't you use a tool like Dialog[1] or Gnus? [1] http://www.40tude.com/dialog/ -- Beste Grüße, Carsten Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Robert, > (3) Read NNTP News Groups I read and write news with TB, and I am not the only one. If you are interested, take a look at: http://www.mail-archive.com/tbudl@thebat.dutaint.com/msg36819.html -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Spike, > Wanting everything rolled into one is what causes vulnerability > and bloatware. Leave TB just as it is, a simple and efficient > mail client, as it should be! All the things you mentioned are > the very reason TB! is gaining poularity. We don't WANT a MS > Outhouse clone, that's why we LEFT! You would be surprised by the number of TB users who would prefer a mail&news integrated environment. And don't be narrow minded, the fact that a program has options doesn't mean you have to use them. For example, I don't use the PGP or AV plugin options in TB. But I don't campaign to have them removed or not improved for those who use them. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Spike, On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:41:01 -0500 GMT (17/01/03, 22:41 +0700 GMT), Spike wrote: >>> (3) Read NNTP News Groups MG>> Many prefer using a separate client for that, yet future MG>> releases might also implement that. > S*%T to that! I am not sure about that first word, but Stefan said *if* TB gets newsreader capabilities, it will be by way of a plug-in. So you don't need to load it if you don't want to. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.63 Beta/3 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using an AMD Athlon K7 1.2GHz, 128MB RAM Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, January 17, 2003, Robert Silver wrote... > (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner It is rumored to be coming in version 2. > (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double > clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that > feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing > browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. You mean the source code for the HTML? Try the F9 key, it'll give you the source of the whole email. If you mean default to displaying the html portion on an email, try: Options Preferences General - Tick the box "Display HTML part of messages automatically" > (3) Read NNTP News Groups That isn't a "standard email feature". NNTP is news, and not email... they are two different things. > (4) Improve the capability of backing up and restoring configuration > information. It should be easy to backup any feature be it folder > Sorting FILTERS etc.. Hrm... last time I did a backup of my files, it backed up everything just fine, including filters, and common folders. - -- Jonathan Angliss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQA/AwUBPigzVyuD6BT4/R9zEQL39wCfV+kWNPb0IdVrjAZcMTt9PS7SNMoAoK/p crqI99NYnEXeq1+3gYv3ehqY =qFM/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Carsten, >> (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner > > Because TB! users don't want that. Speak for yourself and perhaps for a number of users, but not for all. I will not use HTML myself either, but I know of many TB users who would and of non-TB users who would move to TB if it had an HTML editor. And anyway, independently of what you or I may wish, if Ritlabs is smart enough and they want to keep in business, they should include an HTML editor in a near future version. And I do want them to keep in business so they will continue to support and improve the many TB features that I love. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, January 17, 2003, Spike wrote... RS>> (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner > God forbid! This is why I LIKE TB! Goodbye to bloatmail!! I will > soon be implementing a filter that sends to trash and deletes any > e-mail containing HTML - PERIOD! Unless they alter the way they do their filtering, you can't. It depends how the sending client sets up the headers. If it sets the content-type of the whole email to text/html then yes you can get that, but if it sets is as multipart-attachment (or whatever it is), then you cannot as the html portion of the email will be an attachment, and you cannot filter inside that part. - -- Jonathan Angliss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQA/AwUBPig1HCuD6BT4/R9zEQJRmACg8dcFPiFsIyJGwWK3ed6PuQeXdu4AoPA4 nx2OsomVawHNkRf36Koi98mw =j6pN -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Spike, > I will soon be implementing a filter that sends to trash and deletes > any e-mail containing HTML - PERIOD! I never write/send HTML e-mail, and I don't think I will in the future. But if I implemented a filter like you intend to, I would probably loose abut 1/3 of my business e-mail. And belive me, I don't want to loose it. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Jonathan, On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:53:44 -0600 GMT (17/01/03, 23:53 +0700 GMT), Jonathan Angliss wrote: >> I will soon be implementing a filter that sends to trash and >> deletes any e-mail containing HTML - PERIOD! > Unless they alter the way they do their filtering, you can't. ACK. > It depends how the sending client sets up the headers. If it sets > the content-type of the whole email to text/html then yes you can > get that, but if it sets is as multipart-attachment (or whatever it > is), then you cannot as the html portion of the email will be an > attachment, It is technically possible to filter on that, very much like an HTML attachment is now shown as such in the attachment pane. Currently it is not possible to filter on attachment extensions, but I believe it is in the wishlist. > and you cannot filter inside that part. ...but I would appreciate it if they implemented this feature. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Work is the curse of the drinking class. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.63 Beta/3 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using an AMD Athlon K7 1.2GHz, 128MB RAM Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Friday, January 17, 2003, 11:38 AM, you wrote: MAU> You would be surprised by the number of TB users who would prefer a MAU> mail&news integrated environment. And don't be narrow minded, the fact MAU> that a program has options doesn't mean you have to use them. For MAU> example, I don't use the PGP or AV plugin options in TB. But I don't MAU> campaign to have them removed or not improved for those who use them. I don't think TB ever could be as good with newsgroups as newsbin or newsrover, at least with binary-type newsgroups. for text only, maybe I would use it, but probably not if I already have a newsreader setup and working well. But for those that want it, having the option might attract someone who used to use Lookout Express for mail and news. having the option is always nice. -- Paul Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
* "Miguel A. Urech" writes: > Hello Carsten, >>> (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner >> Because TB! users don't want that. > Speak for yourself and perhaps for a number of users, but not for all. Okay. > I will not use HTML myself either, but I know of many TB users who > would and of non-TB users who would move to TB if it had an HTML > editor. Yes, the more experienced a users is the more he dislikes such HTML mails. > And anyway, independently of what you or I may wish, if Ritlabs is > smart enough and they want to keep in business, they should > include an HTML editor in a near future version. NACK. If Ritlabs is smart enough and they want to keep in business, they should provide full IMAP support for professional business users or should improve (=debug) the not-so-bad client/server mode. Which group is Ritlabs targeting? > And I do want them to keep in business so they will continue to > support and improve the many TB features that I love. Yes, but competitors don't sleep ;-) -- Beste Grüße, Carsten Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Jonathan, >> (3) Read NNTP News Groups > > That isn't a "standard email feature". NNTP is news, and not email... > they are two different things. Of course, but they can both be integrated in a same environment and program. And that, for many of us, is a great advantage. Before I moved to TB over one year ago I was using an OLR (Of-Line Reader) that integrated Mail, News and special forums like Compuserve and CIX. That is why I have "invented" my own solution to read/write news from within TB. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, January 17, 2003, Thomas Fernandez wrote... >>> I will soon be implementing a filter that sends to trash and >>> deletes any e-mail containing HTML - PERIOD! >> Unless they alter the way they do their filtering, you can't. > ACK. >> It depends how the sending client sets up the headers. If it sets >> the content-type of the whole email to text/html then yes you can >> get that, but if it sets is as multipart-attachment (or whatever it >> is), then you cannot as the html portion of the email will be an >> attachment, > It is technically possible to filter on that, very much like an HTML > attachment is now shown as such in the attachment pane. Currently it > is not possible to filter on attachment extensions, but I believe it > is in the wishlist. I'm confused... are you saying you can filter on an attachment header? If so, I'd *love* to know how. It has been tried before... at least in 1.62 and didn't work here, and a number of people also pointed out it didn't work, and I thought I gave a pretty good explanation of it a while ago, it's in the archives under html filtering somewhere. >> and you cannot filter inside that part. > ...but I would appreciate it if they implemented this feature. Yes... it would be good... providing you allow for filtering inside the attachment headers if the content-type is not text/* otherwise you'll probably start matching things in the attachment body for words like sex. If the content-type is text/* then allow the filtering inside the attachment body too. Plus you also have to take into account that the attachment must be encoded in 7bit or 8bit, or provide a base64 decoder as part of the filtering, and to be honest, that is going to slow the filtering down a *lot* when it comes to bit emails. - -- Jonathan Angliss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQA/AwUBPig+DiuD6BT4/R9zEQI6AwCfSiqX0Gg1Llooq6t8mr8UCzSy2wcAoNv9 APuVzGT6jZT3auzFKLHFcvQI =XniL -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Paul, > I don't think TB ever could be as good with newsgroups as newsbin or > newsrover, at least with binary-type newsgroups. Don't underestimate Ritlabs' programers. If they could write a better e-mail client why do you assume they won't be able to write a better newsreader? -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, January 17, 2003, Carsten Thönges wrote... > NACK. If Ritlabs is smart enough and they want to keep in business, > they should provide full IMAP support for professional business > users or should improve (=debug) the not-so-bad client/server mode. - From what I've heard (seen on the lists), they're hitting the IMAP support pretty hard on the v2 release which is something I am waiting very patiently for. The current IMAP support is nothing more than POP collection tweaked to work with the different IMAP commands, ie: A01 LOGIN username password Instead of: USER username PASS password - -- Jonathan Angliss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQA/AwUBPig/LSuD6BT4/R9zEQJmxgCfTlBTt3MxEWtut46MHyNw3MtLvRkAn2oZ 9cLKJssYUro5DgQd8kdzxrhK =AlFA -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Spike, > the key word in all this is _OPTIONAL_! Of course! -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Carsten, >> Speak for yourself and perhaps for a number of users, but not for all. > > Okay. :-)) As for the rest of your message, I fully agree with what Thomas writes in his <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> so I won't repeat. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Friday, January 17, 2003, 12:32 PM, you wrote: MAU> Hello Paul, >> I don't think TB ever could be as good with newsgroups as newsbin or >> newsrover, at least with binary-type newsgroups. MAU> Don't underestimate Ritlabs' programers. If they could write a better MAU> e-mail client why do you assume they won't be able to write a better MAU> newsreader? good point! I think they will probably stay away from it though, remember it would add SEVER bloat to the program to add that much capability. Something more along the lines of the Agent newsreader might be a nice option though I'd really rather they concentrate on making it a better email client, and they seem to be doing a fine job! -- Paul Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Friday, January 17, 2003, 6:36:47 PM, Laura ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > there are certain advantages to it as well... > including hilighting things that are important when sending out a > report, and more. THINK about it. :) Attach the report as an HTML file, most recipient will find it more convenient that way. .marek jedlinski -- No ads, no nags freeware: http://keynote.prv.pl (KeyNote, PhoneDeck, KookieJar, Oubliette) "You guys got something against spam?" (Vriess, in _Alien 4_) Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
NEWS in TB?!? NO THANK YOU - and do not expect me to accept a price raise of 30% because TB3 (or whenever it is coming out) now adds a newsreader! / St Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Friday, January 17, 2003, 6:32:14 PM, Miguel A. Urech ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Don't underestimate Ritlabs' programers. If they could write a better > e-mail client why do you assume they won't be able to write a better > newsreader? It *could* be a great newsreader, but attachment handling would have to be thoroughly reworked. In my freelance work I receive and send lots of large and very large attachments (1-20MB). TB takes *ages* to just display a message that contains an attachment, then takes twice as long to save it. Agent - by way of comparison - gives me no perceptible delay, on the same machine, for the same attachment sizes. Those who download stuff from binary groups would be thoroughly underwhelmed with TB's performance in this regard. Agent's threading is also superior, IMO. That said, I'd buy a TB-based newsreader without a second of hesitation, if only for the powerful search facilities. .marek jedlinski -- No ads, no nags freeware: http://keynote.prv.pl (KeyNote, PhoneDeck, KookieJar, Oubliette) "You guys got something against spam?" (Vriess, in _Alien 4_) Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Laura, > resistance is futile, html is here to stay. Just like Coca-Cola and McDonald ;-) > MAU>> I never write/send HTML e-mail, and I don't think I will in > the MAU>> future. But if I implemented a filter like you intend > > to, I would MAU> probably loose abut 1/3 of my business e-mail. > > And belive me, I don't MAU> want to loose it. I think there is something wrong with the wrapping of your reply template :-) > Ditto Miguel. there are certain advantages to it as well... > including hilighting things that are important when sending out a > report, and more. THINK about it. :) The problem about using HTML is that many people (and many times) its just used to write a few lines that could just as well have been written in plain text, and with much less overhead. As for reports, I prefer to write them in Word and send as an attachment. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hi Laura, on Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:36:47 -0800GMT (17.01.03, 18:36 +0100GMT here), you wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : MAU>> I never write/send HTML e-mail, and I don't think I will in the MAU>> future. But if I implemented a filter like you intend L> to, I would MAU> probably loose abut 1/3 of my business e-mail. L> And belive me, I don't MAU> want to loose it. Hey, what happened to your quotes' wrapping? ;-) -- Cheers Peter I.R.S.: We've got what it takes to take what you've got! Winamp currently playing: Blind Faith - Can't Find My Way Home (Electric Version) Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Spike, > Otherwise, as I stated earlier we would just have a re-written MS > Outhouse, and . . . why bother? Not really. I haven't ever used Outlook, so I'm not familiar. But I doubt it has the filtering and templates power (just to name a couple of things) TB has. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Paul, > I think they will probably stay away from it though, remember it > would add SEVER bloat to the program to add that much capability. I disagree. Most of the code needed to add (a very good) newsreader capability to TB is already there. Message base and folder management, filters, templates, ABs, ... Basically, all that would need to be added is a Connection Centre and Message Dispatcher that "talks" NNTP instead of POP/SMTP (or IMAP). -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello marek, > It *could* be a great newsreader, It *is* already, I currently use it for 17 newsgroups. > but attachment handling would have to be thoroughly reworked. In my > freelance work I receive and send lots of large and very large > attachments (1-20MB). TB takes *ages* to just display a message that > contains an attachment, then takes twice as long to save it. Someone could perhaps say that e-mail was not "invented" to send attachments, at least large attachments. FTP was invented for that :) However, although I don't usually send large attachments I do received them, and I've never had the feeling that TB is slow displaying a message with attachments or saving them. > Agent's threading is also superior, IMO. In the 17 groups I monitor (with TB) I have never seen an un-properly threaded message. > That said, I'd buy a TB-based newsreader without a second of > hesitation, if only for the powerful search facilities. As I have said, I read and write news with TB, and I am not the only one. If you are interested, take a look at: http://www.mail-archive.com/tbudl@thebat.dutaint.com/msg36819.html -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, January 17, 2003, Miguel A. Urech wrote... >> Agent's threading is also superior, IMO. > In the 17 groups I monitor (with TB) I have never seen an > un-properly threaded message. Having looked at the RFCs for NNTP, the threading is done in an identical fashion I believe, even using the same header names, In-Reply-To and References. Those are the same headers that TB! uses to do normal mail threading, and so the threading will work over there too. - -- Jonathan Angliss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQA/AwUBPihaLSuD6BT4/R9zEQIaTACfST91NxNkpK8gF5YQYMCnjTKMumkAoO+v Ci6gfN1wP9yJGyEEuDY/tSRI =rQCo -END PGP SIGNATURE- Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Friday, January 17, 2003, 8:02:52 PM, Miguel A. Urech ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Someone could perhaps say that e-mail was not "invented" to send > attachments, at least large attachments. FTP was invented for that :) This is fair enough; the encode/decode overhead is a necessary evil. But not everyone is or can be running a server (I can't, no static IP), and I've seen (small) companies that are so concerned with security they won't even run a private FTP server. >> Agent's threading is also superior, IMO. > In the 17 groups I monitor (with TB) I have never seen an un-properly > threaded message. I've never seen TB thread newsgroups, yet :) Perhaps it's not the threading algorithm as such that I prefer in Agent, more how Agent displays and handles threads. In Agent, I nearly always keep messages threaded (sort by date is the ony other option I use), but for some reason I cannot get used to how TB displays threads, moving around the columns and all, so I always end up sorting by received date and, when following a thread like this one, always have to move up :) > As I have said, I read and write news with TB, and I am not the only > one. If you are interested, take a look at: Thanks a lot, I will! .marek jedlinski -- No ads, no nags freeware: http://keynote.prv.pl (KeyNote, PhoneDeck, KookieJar, Oubliette) "Most of what I've learned over the years has come from signatures." (Larry Wall) Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Jonathan, > Having looked at the RFCs for NNTP, the threading is done in an > identical fashion I believe, even using the same header names, > In-Reply-To and References. Those are the same headers that TB! uses > to do normal mail threading, and so the threading will work over there > too. Yes, it does work. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
* Thomas Fernandez writes: > Spike wrote: (3) Read NNTP News Groups MG>>> Many prefer using a separate client for that, yet future MG>>> releases might also implement that. >> S*%T to that! > I am not sure about that first word, but Stefan said *if* TB gets > newsreader capabilities, it will be by way of a plug-in. Please read: http://www.newsreaders.com/misc/twpierce/news/newsreader-manifesto.html Gnus, slrn, tin, Dialog, Agent, ... I know that, like Miguel, there are some guys who use their TB! as a newsreader, but what about scoring, killfiling, ignoring threads etc.? Don't you miss that in TB!? > So you don't need to load it if you don't want to. ;-) Quite a lot of "OPTIONAL" features that I don't need these days... ;-) This is off-topic, isn't it? -- Beste Grüße, Carsten Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Saturday, 18 January 2003, at 4:26:55 a.m., Markus Gloede wrote: > Those are not "standard email features". They have been wrapped into > email clients by other companies and they made a bad job at it and have > thus set a quasi-standard which led you to believe those are standard > features. Amen! There should be an internet license for newbies! They should all start with a < 14.4k modem (preferably 1.2k or slower) and have scripted UUCP connections. They would have freeware email and newsreaders (preferably something written about 10 years ago) and have exhorbitant connection fees which are time-based. THEN they would understand how things are *supposed* to work and how easy they have things today. I know plenty of folk who still can't distinguish between the act of connecting to the net (i.e. dialup) and the use of that connection for a variety of protocols (i.e. HTTP, email, IM). Regards, Allister. -- Using The Bat! v1.61 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello marek, > I've never seen TB thread newsgroups, yet :) If you have a folder for this list and view threads by Reference, that is exactly how you will see newsgroups threads. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Carsten, > I know that, like Miguel, there are some guys who use their TB! as a > newsreader, but what about scoring, killfiling, ignoring threads > etc.? Don't you miss that in TB!? Once you have downloaded messages, what is the big difference between a newsgroup and a mail list like this one? Do you miss scoring in this list? Aren't killfiles quite similar (if not the same) than selective download filters? And about ignoring threads, that is a feature I missed in tb since I started using it. But I have such an option already in TB :) And it works not only for newsgroups but for mailing lists also. For example, in this list I ignore all thread that relate to PGP or anti virus plugins (ignore by subject), but then I can also ignore specific threads by Reference. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Robert, Friday, January 17, 2003, 1:15:54 PM, you wrote: RS> Hello , RS> Why can't the bat with all its extra features many of them nice but RS> some of them not that important do the following: RS> (1) Edit or use an existing HTML editor in a seamless manner Because it's a text mail client. RS> (2) Have the option of viewing HTML pages in its viewer. The double RS> clicking attachments is cumbersome. It would be much better if that RS> feature was simply optional and utilized function calls to existing RS> browser code like Hotmetal used to do or other HTML editors could. See above RS> (3) Read NNTP News Groups Because it's a mail client not a newsreader - that's what I use my newsreader for. RS> (4) Improve the capability of backing up and restoring configuration RS> information. It should be easy to backup any feature be it folder RS> Sorting FILTERS etc.. Have you checked out tools/backup? -- Best regards, Mike Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Friday, January 17, 2003, 1:15:54 PM,Robert wrote: RS> (4) Improve the capability of backing up and restoring configuration RS> information. It should be easy to backup any feature be it folder RS> Sorting FILTERS etc.. In my experience Tools » Backup works extremely well. Being able to back up filters would be nice though. -- Cheers, Anne Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition on Windows 98 4.10 Build Visit The Bat! Users' Unofficial Help Forum http://the-bat-forums.donzeigler.com Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Anne [A] wrote:'
A> In my experience Tools » Backup works extremely well. Being able to
A> back up filters would be nice though.
This point was being discussed on the beta list.
The backup utility has worked well for me on the three occasions I've
used it. However, one of those occasions was not without problems.
The initial backup wouldn't restore. It said that there was a problem
(I can't remember what it was, but the message wasn't specific).
I then started looking through the settings of my installation. I
found a nonsense path for one of my account's attachment directory.
The path was from one of my previous installations (I've been moving
the current installation around, using the same one since I started
using TB!). After correcting the path and doing the backup, the
restore worked.
You can imagine how I would have felt if I didn't have a working
installation to fall back when the backup didn't restore.
So when using TB!'s backup, watch out for any errors that are
reported. If errors are reported, don't rely on the backup since you
could lose mail or the backup will not restore. You'll have to first
fix your installation, provided you found where the problem is, and
trust the backup only if it has occurred without any errors.
Interestingly, I got no error messages when I did the backup that
failed to restore.
- --
-=] allie_M [=- {List Moderator}
MUA: TB! v1.63 Beta/4 ___ OS: WinXP Pro (SP1)
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Saturday, January 18, 2003, 5:57:35 AM, Allie Martin wrote: > So when using TB!'s backup, watch out for any errors that are > reported. If errors are reported, don't rely on the backup since you > could lose mail or the backup will not restore. You'll have to first > fix your installation, provided you found where the problem is, and > trust the backup only if it has occurred without any errors. I use the backup facility to maintain a historical version of TB that I can go back to if I find that I have deleted something I may have needed. For a backup of my current installation, I use 12Ghosts Backup (http://12ghosts.com/ghosts/backup.htm) which maintains a full copy of my /MAIL folder once an hour (this can be set to any value) to a second HD which I use for general backups. The program only copies files that have changed since the last backup, so it does not have a noticeable impact on system performance. This second HD is removeable, so if I am going away, I take it out and put it somewhere safe, away from my PC. Julian -- Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Anne, > If it was standalone one then I'd have no problems with it. I > wouldn't want to see a newsreader/mail client combo though. Why are some of you somewhat "afraid" of a newsreader/mail client combo? It could be (should be) quite transparent to you if you just want to use it for e-mail. As I envision it, the difference would (could) be that when you want to create a new account you are given the option to create a mail or a news account. If you create a mail one you have to configure the POP and SMTP servers, etc., and if a news one the news server. What a big deal! Just like now when creating a news folder we have the option to create a normal folder in the selected account or a global folder. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Mike, > Well, it just so happens that MacDonalds is having financial problems > and is shutting "restaurants" all over the world :) Which, to me, is good news. I believe that not even the US should be allowed to have "massive destruction weapons". ;-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Anne, > In my experience Tools » Backup works extremely well. Being able to > back up filters would be nice though. Ever tried Second Copy 2000 from http://www.centered.com/ ? -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Thorsten, > In my opinion, The Bat needs to support all the features, the main > competition (M$) is offering - this means HTML Emails, Usenet Group > Support etc. Of course it would be great, if the user could choose > to work just with plain text, or with all the bells and whistles > activated. Of course! Nobody should be forced to use a feature he doesn't want to use. I wouldn't use TB if I was forced to use PGP, but it is good the option is there for those who want or need to use it. And I don't complain if the developers devote time to debugging or improving the PGP features. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Miguel A. Urech [MAU] wrote:'
Ritlabs seems to have an HTML editor in their list of features to
definitely support at some point. For this reason, I didn't wish to
comment on this thread. However, I find the pro-HTML arguments to be
quite disturbing to the point where I can no longer maintain my
silence. :) I therefore just *have to* jump in.
MAU> Of course! Nobody should be forced to use a feature he doesn't
MAU> want to use.
This is *exactly*, and I stress *exactly*, the point that I push. We
should always strive for this. This should be strived for in the
context of both formatting your own mail and also reading mail.
Of course, it's only in a few situations that you'll have everyone
pleased, so you'll just have to do what will likely please most of
your audience. If you're just corresponding with one individual and
you know what they want, then no problem.
Why push a format that so easily and trivially takes away the readers
*choice* of background colour and font sizes?? Until clients
incorporate ways to control this at the readers end, I cannot support
HTML use in e-mail.
MAU> I wouldn't use TB if I was forced to use PGP, but it is good the
MAU> option is there for those who want or need to use it.
Yes. If I use it, my text is just as readable as if I didn't. I don't
cripple you, as a reader of my message, in any way.
MAU> And I don't complain if the developers devote time to debugging
MAU> or improving the PGP features.
Sure.
My problem isn't one of incorporating features that don't interest me.
You're making it out to be this, and I don't think those who have
commented negatively about HTML are against it simply because it
doesn't interest them. You can't simply compare it to another language
as you did in another message ... Spanish vs English.
I'm commenting against it because there are problems with it. It
creates a lot of problems for others. Problems that I myself
experience daily and have explained in another message. Problems that
the very sender isn't aware of in the majority of circumstances in
which it occurs.
The only HTML mail I can reliably read with comfort are from those who
know how to compose it, i.e., HTML newsletters and such. Though I
still have problems with some. I then open them in my browser. The
HTML format does improve on the presentation of a newsletter or
similar document. I'd have just as quickly accepted it as an HTML
attachment anyway.
- --
-=] allie_M [=- {List Moderator}
MUA: TB! v1.63 Beta/4 ___ OS: WinXP Pro (SP1)
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=jfmM
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Saturday, January 18, 2003, 6:19 AM, you wrote: MAU> Hello Anne, >> If it was standalone one then I'd have no problems with it. I >> wouldn't want to see a newsreader/mail client combo though. MAU> Why are some of you somewhat "afraid" of a newsreader/mail client MAU> combo? It could be (should be) quite transparent to you if you just MAU> want to use it for e-mail. I'm not afraid of anything, I just like my applications to be fast and versatile. TB is, but if it starts adding TOO much... back to the BLOATware of OE. MAU> As I envision it, the difference would sure glad we each have our own opinion <>G MAU> (could) be that when you want to create a new account you are given MAU> the option to create a mail or a news account. If you create a mail one MAU> you have to configure the POP and SMTP servers, etc., and if a news MAU> one the news server. What a big deal! Just like now when creating a MAU> news folder we have the option to create a normal folder in the MAU> selected account or a global folder. Outlook does this and I never liked the newsreader part of outlook, never used it. Besides the fact that Outlook actually called Outlook EXPRESS ( another app) to do newsreading, it was not a good newsreader! Agent was much better for text groups, and Newsrover and NewsbinPro are better for binary groups. I don't want to combine all that into one app. I don't normally DO email and newsgroups at the same time, so why should I ask for a client that does it all? I understand that it would be nice to do newsreading & email all at once, no problem, make it happen! Like you said, if I don't add the news server account, then I just don't use that feature, but others can, I LOVE IT! -- Paul Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Saturday, January 18, 2003, 8:04 AM, you wrote: AM> The only HTML mail I can reliably read with comfort are from those who AM> know how to compose it, i.e., HTML newsletters and such. Though I AM> still have problems with some. I then open them in my browser. The AM> HTML format does improve on the presentation of a newsletter or AM> similar document. I'd have just as quickly accepted it as an HTML AM> attachment anyway. actually, I'm having a problem in TB with html attachments. when I get a message with a message.htm in the left pane, I click on it, and get a dialog box that says: File extension is htm do you want to save the file to disk instead of opening it? I say "NO" and get another error message dialog box that says: the anti-virus has reported an error, the file cannot be checked for viruses. I click OK, and the email message comes back to me, but the html attachment doesn't open. I have 2 antivirus plugins, the NOD32 (test version 0.1) and AVG 10. I am using AVG, and I don't remember why I added the NOD32 plugin. -- Paul Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Allie, > Why push a format that so easily and trivially takes away the readers > *choice* of background colour and font sizes?? Until clients > incorporate ways to control this at the readers end, I cannot support > HTML use in e-mail. Do you have any choice if I send you a letter by snail mail on my company's letterhead? That's is exactly what some companies I correspond with do with HTML e-mail. They have designed a "letterhead" every employee if forced to use for business e-mail > You can't simply compare it to another language as you did in > another message ... Spanish vs English. It was just a way of trying to explain it to Mary. I should have chosen a better example. What if TB editor only supported message encoding in Latin-1 and not in Thai, Cyrillic, Greek and others? > The only HTML mail I can reliably read with comfort are from those > who know how to compose it, i.e., HTML newsletters and such. Same with plain text. Not everybody uses a rich vocabulary, correct grammar and punctuation, etc., etc. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Paul, On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 08:58:31 -0500 GMT (18/01/03, 20:58 +0700 GMT), Paul Cartwright wrote: > actually, I'm having a problem in TB with html attachments. > when I get a message with a message.htm in the left pane, I click on it, > and get a dialog box that says: > File extension is htm > > do you want to save the file to disk instead of opening it? > I say "NO" and get another error message dialog box that says: > the anti-virus has reported an error, the file cannot be checked for > viruses. This may be a beta problem. Please report on the beta list. > I click OK, and the email message comes back to me, but the html > attachment doesn't open. It always opens here, but I am using another beta version than you. > I have 2 antivirus plugins, the NOD32 (test version 0.1) and AVG 10. > I am using AVG, and I don't remember why I added the NOD32 plugin. LOL! This just may be the problem. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Money can't buy happiness but it can certainly rent it for a couple of hours. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.63 Beta/3 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using an AMD Athlon K7 1.2GHz, 128MB RAM Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello, On Friday, January 17, 2003, 17:44, Carsten wrote: CT> TB! is no newsreader. Why don't you use a tool like Dialog[1] or Gnus? CT> [1] http://www.40tude.com/dialog/ I've tried 40tude dialog and it blew me away! Good bye Forté Agent. Multiple languages support is amazing in that program. Full unicode support, it picks needed charset for you by analysing what characters are in the message. Perfect! I just wish The Bat! v2 (will it ever be?) would handle multiple languages as well as 40tude Dialog. -- Edvinas Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hi Miguel, on Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:32:32 +0100GMT (18.01.03, 15:32 +0100GMT here), you wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : >> Why push a format that so easily and trivially takes away the readers >> *choice* of background colour and font sizes?? Until clients >> incorporate ways to control this at the readers end, I cannot support >> HTML use in e-mail. MAU> Do you have any choice if I send you a letter by snail mail on my MAU> company's letterhead? No, I haven't. That's another advantage of e-mail over snail mail. *G* MAU> That's is exactly what some companies I correspond with do with HTML MAU> e-mail. They have designed a "letterhead" every employee if forced to MAU> use for business e-mail We'll have to live with their ignorance of the difference between a screen and a piece of paper. Or teach them... ;-) -- Cheers Peter "The pen is mightier than the sword, and considerably easier to write with." Marty Feldman Winamp currently playing: Electric Flag - Sunny Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Saturday, January 18, 2003, 10:58 AM, you wrote: >> I say "NO" and get another error message dialog box that says: >> the anti-virus has reported an error, the file cannot be checked for >> viruses. TF> This may be a beta problem. Please report on the beta list. no, it was a screw loose between the ears problem:) >> I click OK, and the email message comes back to me, but the html >> attachment doesn't open. TF> It always opens here, but I am using another beta version than you. not a beta issue, it was doing that with 1.62 >> I have 2 antivirus plugins, the NOD32 (test version 0.1) and AVG 10. >> I am using AVG, and I don't remember why I added the NOD32 plugin. TF> LOL! This just may be the problem. thanks for the encouragement:) I changed the ( slightly new menu options) tools-preferences menu to load *.htm and *.html without asking. At least AVG will still be scanning, so security isn't compromized ( I don't think?). go away for a week and new beta series comes out, SHEESH!! -- Paul Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Miguel, On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, at 12:19:53 GMT +0100 (1/18/2003, 5:19 AM -0500 GMT here), you wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > What a big deal! It is either the fear of the unknown, or they relate to Outlook. I guess they never used VA. :-) -- Best regards, Greg Strong TB! v1.63 Beta/3 on Windows XP Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Paul, On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, at 08:44:03 GMT -0500 (1/18/2003, 7:44 AM -0500 GMT here), you wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I'm not afraid of anything, I just like my applications to be fast and > versatile. TB is, but if it starts adding TOO much... back to the > BLOATware of OE. Well I've used a client in the past called Virtual Access (VA). VA was not at all like OE which is bloatware. Very efficient, able to manage very large message DB, and very good at threading messages. In some ways better than TB. It threaded conversations (i.e. both send and receive messages) in the same folder. I stopped using it because it was no longer being developed. -- Best regards, Greg Strong TB! v1.63 Beta/3 on Windows XP Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Anne, > I'm not afraid of it Miguel, I just don't want to use TB! in that way. But you don't have to. Just like now you don't have to create an account for my mailboxes on my ISPs. That is all the difference there would (should) be. When creating an account, having the possibility of creating it for a POP/SMTP server, like now, of for a NNTP one. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Greg, > It is either the fear of the unknown, or they relate to Outlook. I guess > they never used VA. :-) Agree. Some people seem to think there is only Outlook and TB out there :) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Miguel A. Urech [MAU] wrote:'
>> It is either the fear of the unknown, or they relate to Outlook. I guess
>> they never used VA. :-)
MAU> Agree. Some people seem to think there is only Outlook and TB out
MAU> there :)
But none seem to do both well when they support both.
I don't mind the integration via the plug-in. My only concern and this
may be imagined is that Stefan has stated on TBBETA that their current
wish list is massive. I can just imagine that the newsreader will
bring with it, it's own set of wishes, especially when those who were
using Agent and their other specialised newsreaders start getting
grumpy when the various news-reader specific features they so love is
not in the plug-in. More wishes galore. :/ Loss of focus sets in.
Development of TB! as a specialist e-mail client extraordinaire,
slows in an effort to improve the news-reader component/plug-in.
Just a thought.
--
-=] allie_M [=- {List Moderator}
MUA: TB! v1.63 Beta/4 ___ OS: WinXP Pro (SP1)
Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
On Sunday, January 19, 2003, 12:32:25 PM, Allie Martin wrote: > Development of TB! as a specialist e-mail client extraordinaire, > slows in an effort to improve the news-reader component/plug-in. I agree with this, although I think that some news-reader features are common to those of a specialist email client, particularly in the handling of mailing lists. I am thinking of things like Ignore Thread, which I always found useful in Agent as a way of dealing with high volume groups and mailing lists. I know that this can currently be done using filters, but it is not easy. Julian -- Using The Bat! v1.62 Christmas Edition on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Allie, > But none seem to do both well when they support both. Isn't "none" too "Black" (or white)? Wouldn't a shade of gray like "only some", or "few" or... ? ;-) > Just a thought. And a very valid one. But just as valid as mine if I think that TB developers are "defocusing" by devoting time and resources by "improving" RTV to show _plain_text_messages_ with *fake* pretty colours and fonts that the originator never intended, or by devoting time to a spam plugin API to enable a few to have fun developing spam filters when there are already very good anti-spam tools out there (it will be hard to neat POPFile) that can be seamlessly used by TB, or to allow the use of an alternate or external editor when TB's one "is supposed to be the best", or to PGP8 (how many TB users use/need PGP and, of those, how many need PGP8), or to improving IMAP support, which I don't care about, and not to extended MAPI which would be more useful to me, or :-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Miguel A. Urech [MAU] wrote:'
MAU> Isn't "none" too "Black" (or white)? Wouldn't a shade of gray like
MAU> "only some", or "few" or... ? ;-)
Can you think of one that does both well? :)
I think you'd have to go looking in the Linux/UNIX direction at apps
like Mutt and eMacs. However, those are long standing, well supported
OSS efforts, and can't be compared to private ventures as TB! with a
small development staff behind it.
MAU> And a very valid one. But just as valid as mine if I think that
MAU> TB developers are "defocusing" by devoting time and resources by
MAU> "improving" RTV to show _plain_text_messages_ with *fake* pretty
MAU> colours and fonts that the originator never intended,
I disagree. It helps me and many others to differentiate between
quoted and new text, thus making readability a lot better. Control is
conferred on me the reader when doing this. With HTML, it's you, the
sender, who determines the fonts and backgrounds I read your mail with
(a terrible thing). These issues are all about e-mail and reading
them, so efforts made to improve on this is definitely not defocusing
on the part of TB! development.
Your point about it not being the way the author intended it is a weak
one. I'm writing this using the monospaced font Pragmata, size 12. I
don't expect you to use the same font or font size.
MAU> or by devoting time to a spam plugin API to enable a few to have
MAU> fun developing spam filters when there are already very good
MAU> anti-spam tools out there
I agree with this one, even though spam filtering has everything to do
with e-mail.
MAU> [...] or to allow the use of an alternate or external editor when
MAU> TB's one "is supposed to be the best",
;) This is again very relevant to e-mail. Trying to develop the apps
so that as many users as possible can comfortably compose their
messages is not defocusing. Developing a newsreader plug-in for TB!
is. It has nothing to do with e-mail. It does have to do with
marketing and the decision seems to have been made in the newsreader
plugins favour so...
MAU> or to PGP8 (how many TB users use/need PGP and, of those, how
MAU> many need PGP8), or to improving IMAP support, which I don't care
MAU> about, and not to extended MAPI which would be more useful to me,
MAU> or :-)
All these things are relevant to e-mail . TB! *is* an e-mail
client.
- --
-=] allie_M [=- {List Moderator}
MUA: TB! v1.63 Beta/4 ___ OS: WinXP Pro (SP1)
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Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Allie, > Can you think of one that does both well? :) Yes, and I am sure Greg Strong will agree with me, Virtual Access. It did (does) e-mail and news, plus Compuserve and CIX. I will only say one more thing, and for the last time, about this e-mail and news integration issue. As you know, I *am already* using TB for news, so I personally don't care if TB really incorporates that or not. From the point of view of the functionality of the client program (i.e. TB), what is the big difference of this mail list and a newsgroup? Basically the protocols used. You use POP to connect to your POP server and collect (from you POP mailbox) the messages, and SMTP connect to your SMPT server to send. While if this list was a newsgroup you would use NNTP to connect to your news server for both collecting and sending. But threading, filtering, templates, colour groups, etc., etc., can be and are the same. And I am proving that point with my setup. What MailTraq's News<->Mail gateway "black box" does for me is basically to convert from one protocol to another. What other functionality would the client program (TB) need if an account was created for news instead of e-mail?. Yes, of course, downloading the list of groups from the server and allowing you to subscribe and un-subscribe. What else, perhaps downloading headers only? Messages Dispatcher does already on POP mailboxes, it shouldn't be that difficult to adapt it. And I haven't mentioned IMAP which maybe much more "similar" to NEWS. To finish, I think and believe that The Bat would be a very good news reader (it is :) without having to put much effort in development. Most of the things needed are there already, I really believe so. I *do* use TB for news, and quite satisfactorily, so I'll leave the news yes news no "battle" to others. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Miguel, On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, at 15:01:11 GMT +0100 (1/20/2003, 8:01 AM -0500 GMT here), you wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> Can you think of one that does both well? :) > Yes, and I am sure Greg Strong will agree with me, Virtual Access. It > did (does) e-mail and news, plus Compuserve and CIX. Virtual Access was (is) a GREAT program. I went from 1 program, VA, that did email, news, CIS forums. Now I use 3. The plus of using more programs is it broadens the user's perspective. The negative is the user doesn't learn the programs as well, or it takes much longer to learn because there is more to learn. People by their own experience relate to OE. This argument of bloatware is nothing more than hog wash! VA was (is) not bloat ware. -- Best regards, Greg Strong TB! v1.63 Beta/4 on Windows XP Service Pack 1 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
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Hash: SHA1
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Greg Strong [GS] wrote:'
GS> VA was (is) not bloat ware.
I did have a look at VA.
It was similar to Forte' Agent. A nice application for News .
and btw, e-mail. Though the e-mail support may be adequate for many,
it's hardly as robust as what TB! provides.
I do remember incidents where Agent users thought it provided better
e-mail functionality than TB!. Perhaps for their purposes, yes. Sure,
no problem.
Miguel is already using TB! for reading news and feels that it already
has most of what's needed for news reading. It's this perception
that's the problem. I disagree strongly with this and this is likely
why I have the opinion that no Windows client combo out there really
does news and e-mail WELL.
- --
-=] allie_M [=- {List Moderator}
MUA: TB! v1.63 Beta/4 ___ OS: WinXP Pro (SP1)
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Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Allie, On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, at 14:06:30 GMT -0500 (1/20/2003, 1:06 PM -0500 GMT here), you wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I did have a look at VA. When? I should explain why I decided to switch to TB from VA. First and foremost VA quit development although is going open source on SourceForge. The last I checked the open source initiative has struggled a bit. Second VA's editor did not wrap properly which caused problems on signature verification with PGP. Miguel was the one who talked me into TB. I'm glad he did. > It was similar to Forte' Agent. I do not agree. VA has a steep learning curve into more advance feature set like TB, but IMHO to this day had the simplest approach to email out of the box. The default folder for inbound AND outbound messages was the "Messages" folder. So in a single email with multiple recipients VA would start the thread and maintain a record in one location, the "Messages" folder. If you had no rules for inbound (i.e.filters) that applied, the receipt of a reply went to the "Message" folder. So VA maintained a thread without the user intervention on simple email conversation without user's intervention. Both TB, Agent, & BTW OE maintain separate folders for inbound and outbound messages. > A nice application for News . and btw, e-mail. I use Agent for news. Agent does news well. I can't speak with a lot of experience with email, but the main reason I continued to look for an email client was Agent can NOT handle multiple email accounts. You had to have multiple instances of Agent, or use an external program. IIRC the external program most recommended at the time was Hamster. Anyhow about that time I was starting to look at Eudora and Pegasus when Miguel lead me to TB. > Though the e-mail support may be adequate for many, it's hardly as > robust as what TB! provides. I agree TB is better than VA in ways most TB users feel very strongly about. I include myself in TB email users, so pun was intended. :-) BTW I do NOT consider myself an experience TB user because from what I can see I've hardly scratched the surface. The ability to learn TB's advance features is the single most important reason why I decided to go with TB. I had an upside to use TB with no ceiling in sight. TB's most evident benefit is the editor. I hope I don't get jumped on here after reading all the threads on editors because this is MY OPINION. Now TB developers are providing options to users with the editor. I think that is great for those options to exist for those other users with different opinions. Even though I've barely scratched the surface TB's filtering coupled with macro and regex capabilities probably just plain BLOWS the competition away. This is the ceiling I couldn't see that I referred to above. TB's "View thread by" options is extremely handy when members of certain mail lists use clients or post via web without the proper headers. VA's message management was better. In VA you had a "prune" option. Very similar to folder properties in TB. The big difference was even though a message was removed from the message base, removed messages were stored in a file rather than trashed without the ability to recover. You had the ability to restore from the file which I did use a few times. I have not used the external program MailBag, so the functionality with MailBag probably far exceeds VA, however it is separate. TB search capabilities are fine and on the face the search features are more extensive in TB than VA, but VA you could save the results in a visual container called Bookmarks. You could save up to 20 bookmarks, and refer to them at any time without running the search again. In TB you can rerun the last 9 searches, but how many times do you have to re-run a search with slightly different criteria to find what you are looking for? This can be replaced in TB with color groups and search function. > Miguel is already using TB! for reading news and feels that it already > has most of what's needed for news reading. It's this perception > that's the problem. What is your problem with this perception? The fact the individual is complacent with accepting the feature set that may be less than what it could be? I do not understand your statement. I look at computers and the software as a tool. Some tools I use more than others, so the feature set is more important to me. If I have 2 tools I use a lot like email & a news reader, I would like to have as similar an interface as possible because it minimizes my mistakes. For example Ctl+N with TB is new email, whereas Ctrl+N with Agent is send message. I'd rather use the keyboard than the mouse, so different short cut keys can be a problem because I have to slow down and think what program I'm using. > I disagree strongly with this and this is likely why I have the > opinion that no Windows client combo out there really does news and > e-mail WELL. I think this is a matter of opinion which is a fun
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Greg, > ... but VA you could save the results in a > visual container called Bookmarks. You could save up to 20 bookmarks, > and refer to them at any time without running the search again. Saving searches was just one of the possibilities of Bookmarks (or of bookmarking messages), there were other way of bookmarking a message, even just manually by hitting B while the message was selected. One real good think about bookmarks, as compared to Colour Groups, was that a message could be bookmarked to any number of bookmark sets. Why can't a message be be "Important" and "for Reference" at the same time? One advantage VA's search and bookmarks was that you could search mail and news simultaneously and bookmarks could include both mail and news messages. > If I have 2 tools I use a lot like email & a news reader, I would > like to have as similar an interface as possible because it > minimizes my mistakes. For example Ctl+N with TB is new email, > whereas Ctrl+N with Agent is send message. If the difference was just a shortcut it wouldn't be too bad :-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: I love the Bat , but why can't the Bat allow me to edit HTMLdocuments or read my USENET news groups. Standard Email features
Hello Edvinas, > I've tried 40tude dialog and it blew me away! Good bye Forté Agent. > Multiple languages support is amazing in that program. Full unicode support, > it picks needed charset for you by analysing what characters are in the > message. Perfect! But threading, specially compared to TB, is pure crap! -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v1.61 Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
