subject:"Re\: \[TruthTalk\] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers"

Dave, you have never understood Biblical saving faith and the difference between it and intellectual faith.

DAVEH: Perry..Does repentance have anything to do with salvation? IOW, can those who don't repent be saved?

 It is totally a work of our Lord and
 Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.

 Perry

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Glenn to DaveL - The below is the different between Biblical faith and intellectual faith. The Devils have intellectual faith in Christ, but they do not have Biblical faith. 

David,

 Yes, actually it does. When one "believes", it entails much more than 
just saying "I believe". Before one can truly believe one must understand 
one's need for salvation, and this is predicated upon one's recognizing that 
they are a sinner and an understanding that they must repent from their sin. 
So, the process of establishing one's belief consists of recognizing that 
one is a sinner and, as such, is unworthy of standing before a just and holy 
God, realizing that there is nothing they can do to correct their sinful 
situation on their own, repenting of their sin, then putting their faith in 
Jesus Christ as the one whose sacrifice can save them. THEN we can say that 
one truly believes and is saved.

 No, I do not think that one who does not repent is truly saved. In fact, 
one who does not acknowledge his sin never feels that he needs to repent, or 
that he even needs a savior. Provided he believes in an afterlife, he 
believes that he will get into heaven because he has done nice things 
(works), and is not a bad person (self righteousness).

 I also believe that it is the Holy spirit that convicts us of our sin in 
the first place and leads us to belief. Otherwise, I fear that we might all 
be lost.

 By all means, when I say that one has faith, I also imply all that leads 
up to developing true faith.

Perry

From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:28:47 -0800



"Charles P. Locke" wrote:

  Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes
  through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) 
There
  is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves.

DAVEH: Perry..Does repentance have anything to do with salvation? 
IOW, can those who don't repent be saved?

  It is totally a work of our Lord and
  Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

You didn't come clean on this verse. You misused the verse out of context to defend your works/salvation. You are slick by asking a question and not making a statement, but I can read between the lines. 

Glenn wrote:
 What you say above means one cannot save 
 themselves. I think you know the context 
 of Acts 2:40. 

I agree that we cannot save ourselves, but I do not agree that there is
nothing we can do to save ourselves. God has extended his salvation to
us, without which no man can be saved. Furthermore, in our deprived
condition, we would not even be wise enough to accept his plan of
salvation except that he drew us to it by his Spirit. When that
happens, however, we must yield to him and respond. There is something
we can do to accept his salvation, and that is respond to him, repent of
our sins and believe in Christ. There are many things we can do to
facilitate God working in our lives, but without Him, there would be
nothing we could do of our own accord by our own works or by our own
power alone.

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Perry wrote:
 I do believe that we are expected to keep the 
 commandments, which are outlined by Jesus in 
 the verses below, and in other places in the
 scriptures. However, I do not believe that we 
 are expected to live sinless lives...in fact, 
 I believe that we cannot. The verse be ye 
 therefore perfect because your father in heaven 
 is perfect is the passage commonly used as a 
 prooftext for this belief, but if one considers 
 what perfect meant in 1611, it does not mean 
 the same as it does today.

The word perfect didn't have just one use in 1611, and neither is
there only one use of the word perfect today.  Compare the KJV of
Philippians 3:12 and 3:15.  The first word perfect there is used in the
sense of finished, complete, and absolutely no room for change.  The
second word is used in the sense of mature.  With regard to modern
times, people often say things like, She has perfect teeth or
Everything was absolutely perfect! or the cake was perfect.  When
they do use the word perfect in this way, they don't mean that there
was absolutely no chance of anything being better, but that there was
nothing noteworthy to criticize.  The word perfect in modern use often
means that it simply meets with all expectations.

I do not believe that anybody living has yet achieved the kind of
perfection mentioned in Philippians 3:12, but I do believe that people
can achieve the perfection referred to in Philippians 3:15.  Sometimes
people say that when Jesus lived and ministered on earth, prior to his
crucifixion, that he was perfect.  Such comments cannot truthfully mean
that he was perfect in the sense of Philippians 3:12, only in the sense
of Philippians 3:15.  Consider the following passages about Jesus:

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things
which he suffered; 
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal
salvation unto all them that obey him;

Isa 53:2  For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a
root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we
shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Luk 2:52  And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with
God and man.

Of course, we also know that Jesus had not attained to the resurrection
until later, so we must agree that Jesus was not perfect in the sense of
Philippians 3:12.  We understand from Scripture that Jesus was someone
who grew in wisdom, stature, obedience, and was made perfect through a
process of time while also being perfect in the sense that whereto he
had attained at any given age, he was exactly as God expected him to be.
He did not sin.

So I would say that Jesus was our perfect example, and we ought to
conform to his image in every way.  If Jesus did not sin, then neither
do we, if we apply our faith and trust in him.  He is able to keep us
from all sin, as Paul says:

1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to
man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above
that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to
escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

And John also testifies to this work of Christ in us:

1Jo 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that
is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him
not. 
1Jo 5:19  And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in
wickedness. 
1Jo 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an
understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that
is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal
life.

Perry wrote:
 Additional verses are found in 1 John 1:9,10. 
 Why would we need to confess sins if we do 
 not sin?

The context of these verses you reference clearly shows that everyone
needs Christ to deal with sin.  Nevertheless, the promise is that if we
confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to
CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness.  This means that we can expect not
to continue in those sins.  Those who are cleansed of unrighteousness
should never say that they are unrighteous.

Let's look at the passages you quote in context and you will see that
they do not offer an excuse for believers to continue to sin.  The ones
he is addressing to confess their sins are those who think they have no
need of Christ because they have no problem of sin.  It's like what
Jesus said in John 9:41, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but
now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Following is the full context of the verses you referenced.  I will add
some commentary between them to help you see my thoughts as I read this
passage.

1Jo 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and
declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 

God is pure and sinless, in Him is NO DARKNESS AT ALL.

1Jo 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Perry, you've had it now. You've hit David's sacred cow. The only problem is I have seen on TT, that he is not perfect. He is a great person, but far far far from perfect.

Perry wrote:
 I do believe that we are expected to keep the 
 commandments, which are outlined by Jesus in 
 the verses below, and in other places in the
 scriptures. However, I do not believe that we 
 are expected to live sinless lives...in fact, 
 I believe that we cannot. The verse "be ye 
 therefore perfect because your father in heaven 
 is perfect" is the passage commonly used as a 
 prooftext for this belief, but if one considers 
 what "perfect" meant in 1611, it does not mean 
 the same as it does today.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

If you have a Church of Christ background you know all the dirt on all the church fathers. You are using a CC attack. The dirt stops CC people from examing the truth.

How many people on TruthTalk knew that Luther rejected the
book of James as not part of the Bible

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

David, you have called me a hypocrite. You are dead wrong. You are showing how imperfect you are. What have you got against me? 

I have to rebuke you in Jesus name for calling me a hypocrite. 


Glenn, you play the hypocrite and you seem
to be the only one who can't see it. Everything

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

No, I will not do this. But I will leave TT. I understand why you are kicking me off of TT. You do not welcome the hard truth on TT. You, my sincere friend, as a hypocrite. You do what you accuse me of doing. 

For the sake of the list, I'm going to ask you Glenn to limit your posts
to two posts per day for one week. Are you willing to do this on a
voluntary basis? I think if you limited your posts to two a day,
perhaps instead of just lashing out insults at people, you might try to
argue your position from wisdom rather than by the quantity of posts you
are able to produce. The problem is that we spend so much time reading
your posts and being distracted by what we think you might be saying
that we have no time to have meaningful discussions. So can this work?
Are you willing to work with me on this?

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

David Miller wrote:
 For the sake of the list, I'm going to ask 
 you Glenn to limit your posts to two posts 
 per day for one week. ... Are you willing 
 to work with me on this?

Glenn wrote:
 No, I will not do this.  But I will leave TT.  
 I understand why you are kicking me off of TT.  
 You do not welcome the hard truth on TT.

I am not kicking you off of TruthTalk.  I have only asked if you would
be willing to limit your posts to two a day for one week.  I think you
are valuable to TruthTalk and I hope you stay.  I'm just trying to help
you get along with the rest of us a little bit better.  If you aren't
willing to limit your posts, perhaps you or someone else can come up
with a better solution to work through this problem.

The hard truth is welcome here, but it must be backed up with wisdom
that promotes discussion.  Flaming others does not promote discussion.
If you need any help understanding this, or if you desire any private
communication to help you understand your error, I am available to you
by e-mail and by telephone.  You have my contact information.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
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ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers


Gary wrote:
 Rom 6:12 -- Therefore do not let sin reign in your 
 mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

 the Ap Paul knows that sin is present; sin 
 demands to 'reign' in him; therefore, the 
 command--think about it--'do not let sin reign' 
 is either a radical modification of JCs 'be ye 
 perfect' or it is exactly what JC (the King) meant 
 by it

I'm not sure what you have in mind about how it would ever be considered
a radical modification of be ye perfect.  Clearly, we are in agreement
that Paul's statement is right in line with what Jesus taught.  To obey
the teaching to be perfect as our heavenly father is to not let sin
reign in our mortal bodies.  Some think that because we have mortal
bodies, that sin will reign in our life.  It is the idea that we sin
because we are human.  At some point, they think we must succumb to
sin's desire to rule us because we live in a mortal, fleshly body.  Paul
taught us that this was not so and that we should not let sin reign.
 
Gary wrote:
 so, if JC didn't countenance ALL of his people 
 learning to walk with Him in love, there would 
 be no sanctification of us--no salvific process 
 in which JCs people 'grow', a sound NT word/concept 
 throughout

Sanctification (but not begin free of sin) is a process, I agree, but
salvation?  You are losing me on this one.  Why do you see salvation as
a process?

We are freed of the power of sin when we believe upon Jesus Christ.  It
is immediate and instantaneous.  This is what faith and grace is all
about.  Then we begin to grow and perfect holiness in the sight of God,
without sinning along the way.  Jesus grew and matured without sinning,
and so should we when we are in him.  His life showed us that this is
the path of life for us.

Gary wrote:
 relative to NT 'growth', if the Ap Paul expected 
 absolute perfection of certain individuals as it 
 is employed/twisted here--i.e., twisted to mean
 absolute obedient legal behavioral sinlessness 
 at all times and forever right now--there would 
 be no NT such as (e.g.) I,II Corinthians where
 believers' sins are 'treated', not abolished--
 they are taught, encouraged to 'grow', not 
 to comply..indeed! there would be no bible outside 
 of an angel walkin' guard at the gates of Eden

You aren't making much sense to me here.  There is no doubt that some of
the Christians were having a problem with sin.  However, the question is
whether that sin in their life was normal (expected), or whether it was
evidence that they were failing to apprehend Christ through faith.  I
think the sin was evidence of their failing to apprehend Christ through
faith.  They were like Peter on the water beginning to sink, or the
disciples when they could not cast devils out of someone.  If the
Christians were not expected to turn away from sin, then most of these
letters would not make any sense at all.  In these letters, the
Christians are taught not to fellowship with anyone in their ranks that
sin (1 Cor. 5:11), and sometimes sins are mentioned and Paul says, let
it not be once named among you (Eph. 5:3).  There is rebuke for not
casting out those Christians who sinned among them (1 Cor. 5:2) and for
allowing sin to continue.  Paul says things like, Awake to
righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I
speak this to your shame (1 Cor. 15:34) and sin shall not have
dominion over you (Romans 6:14).  I can only imagine the kind of
letters Paul would write to Christian churches today, but he would
definitely clean house much like Jesus did in the Temple.  It seems
pretty clear to me that the message of the New Testament is that
Christians are not expected to sin, and so if they do, they need to stop
it immediately or face being cast out of fellowship.  That is the
message.  I don't see the tolerance for sin that you seem to see.  Maybe
you can comment further and share the passages that you have in mind
that summarize the full intent of the New Testament.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Perry wrote:
 Salvation does not remove us from the POWER 
 of sin as you stated below.  Our jutstification 
 through Christ removes us from the PENALTY of sin 
 (which is death), and we enter into [eternal] life. 
 ... Sanctification removes us from the POWER of sin, 
 which is a gradual process that we begin when we are 
 justified, but is not completed in this life.

Do you know anywhere in the Bible where this is taught, or is this just
a Christian tradition that you have accepted?

The kind of righteousness you describe is no different than what existed
in Judaism before Christ came.  Under the law, nobody could be perfect,
but in Christ something new happens to those who truly believe in Christ
for this miracle of the heart which sets us free from the power of sin.

Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a
better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The righteousness that came through law was always partial and gradual,
a process accomplished through self effort.  This kind of righteousness
is like filthy rags next to the righteousness imputed by faith.
According to Romans 10:1-13, the law method of righteousness that you
describe produces a Messiah complex.  A Messiah complex is a term used
by historians and philosophers to refer to the tendency of religious
systems to always be looking for a Messiah to come to set things right.
In Romans 10, he speaks about going to heaven for Messiah, or descending
into the deep.  Those of faith understand that we don't need to wait for
Messiah and the kingdom to come later, but that Messiah has already come
and we enter the kingdom of God right now by faith through grace.

Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every
one that believeth.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath MADE ME
FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. 
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the
flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for
sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH: 
Rom 8:4  THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who
walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 6:14  FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU

Rom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye
have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered
you. 
Rom 6:18  Being then MADE FREE FROM SIN, ye became the servants of
righteousness.

These are just a few of the many passages that teach us that Christ has
already delivered us from the power of sin.  This does not mean that we
will not be tempted, but it does mean that we can overcome every
temptation through the power of Christ.  What verses teach you that
Christ did not do this work, and that he did not finish this work
against sin on the cross?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-23 Thread Charles P. Locke

From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:23:24 -0500
Perry wrote:
 Salvation does not remove us from the POWER
 of sin as you stated below.  Our jutstification
 through Christ removes us from the PENALTY of sin
 (which is death), and we enter into [eternal] life.
 ... Sanctification removes us from the POWER of sin,
 which is a gradual process that we begin when we are
 justified, but is not completed in this life.
Do you know anywhere in the Bible where this is taught, or is this just
a Christian tradition that you have accepted?
This idea was developed in a Bible study I attended. It was based on 
scriptural evidence, although I may not still have the class material.

The kind of righteousness you describe is no different than what existed
in Judaism before Christ came.  Under the law, nobody could be perfect,
but in Christ something new happens to those who truly believe in Christ
for this miracle of the heart which sets us free from the power of sin.
Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a
better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The righteousness that came through law was always partial and gradual,
a process accomplished through self effort.  This kind of righteousness
is like filthy rags next to the righteousness imputed by faith.
According to Romans 10:1-13, the law method of righteousness that you
describe produces a Messiah complex.  A Messiah complex is a term used
by historians and philosophers to refer to the tendency of religious
systems to always be looking for a Messiah to come to set things right.
In Romans 10, he speaks about going to heaven for Messiah, or descending
into the deep.  Those of faith understand that we don't need to wait for
Messiah and the kingdom to come later, but that Messiah has already come
and we enter the kingdom of God right now by faith through grace.
Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every
one that believeth.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath MADE ME
FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the
flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for
sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH:
Rom 8:4  THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who
walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 6:14  FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU

Rom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye
have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered
you.
Rom 6:18  Being then MADE FREE FROM SIN, ye became the servants of
righteousness.
These are just a few of the many passages that teach us that Christ has
already delivered us from the power of sin.  This does not mean that we
will not be tempted, but it does mean that we can overcome every
temptation through the power of Christ.  What verses teach you that
Christ did not do this work, and that he did not finish this work
against sin on the cross?
As I mentioned, I do not think that material is still around, so I guess 
without a bit of research I cannot quote verses on it. Besides, I am sure 
that whatever I find, you can find others that refute it. At least, that has 
been the case so far, even though I do not believe that all you quote indeed 
makes all of your points. Bt I do appreciate your posts, and I do learn from 
them.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread Terry Clifton








Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that nothing will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesus fulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came to fulfil?PerryIf Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS FINISHED"!
 How much more dows it take?

Terry







 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Gal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when he goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the law. Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult.

The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away plain Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law.

If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS FINISHED"!
 How much more dows it take?
 
Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

I am also interested in hearing your answer to the second question I asked: 
If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant?

Perry

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 07:03:23 -0600 (Central Standard Time)

Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that 
nothing

will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesus
fulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the new
covenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came to
fulfil?
Perry

If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated IT IS 
FINISHED
!
  How much more dows it take?

Terry

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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes 
through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8,9) There 
is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. It is totally a work of our Lord and 
Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.

Perry

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:18:35 EST
Gal. 5:1.  I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when he
goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the 
law.
Gal. 5:4.  It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day
Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult.

The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away 
plain
Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law.

 If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated IT IS
 FINISHED!
   How much more dows it take?

 Terry

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Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Much learning can make a person "mad". David has become better and better at explaining away salvation by grace through faith. Common Sense is greatly lacking in these detailed humanistic explanations. 

Surely, Paul (as in Eph. 3:4 and John 20:31 for a quick example) wrote so as to be understood. There is virtue in "common sense" Bible reading. 

Alexander Campbell one said, "When I at last took the naked text and read it with common sense, the Bible became a new book to me". 

"We must come within understanding distance" -- which means the heart as well as the head is involved in making sense of the Bible. ALL SCRIPTURE MUST BE INTERPRETED IN REFERENCE TO THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST! To put it another way, our Lord is Himself the interpreter of Scripture.

7th Day Adventist and their sympathizers will take away your freedom in Christ if you allow them. Gal. 5:1. TT over the years has become a place where Biblcial truth is give "lip" talk but not understood even in simple salvation.

A true Bible believer is not welcome on TT even thought TT claims otherwise.



I am also interested in hearing your answer to the second question I asked: 
"If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant?"

Perry

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Perry wrote:
 Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand 
 that salvation comes through faith, not of works, 
 lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8,9) 

Amen.  I believe this too.

Perry wrote:
 There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. 
 It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. 
 To God be the glory for his endless mercy and 
 grace.

Ask yourself where you heard this kind of teaching?  I'm talking about
the way you worded your commentary.  Does the Bible teach this anywhere?
What teaching in the Bible supports this idea of NOTHING WE CAN DO to
save ourselves?  (I'm serious... this is not a rhetorical question...
please give me references.)

Didn't Peter preach, save yourselves from this untoward generation
(Acts 2:40)?  What good does it do to tell people to save themselves if
there is nothing they can do?  

I think if you are honest with examining where you got your viewpoint
here, you will see that it came not from studying the Bible, but from
listening to popular Christian preachers.  It comes from the instant
salvation, easy believism kind of Christianity that does not tell
believers to count the cost to see whether or not they can pay the price
it will take to follow Christ.

When Jesus was asked how to obtain eternal life, did he say something
like, there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself and
inherit eternal life.  All you can do is pray this prayer and trust God
to save you.  There is nothing you can do, it is all by grace alone and
faith alone.  No, what Jesus taught was, if you will enter into life,
keep the commandments (Mat. 19:17).  This is a teaching of Christ that
I reference for you that I think should be considered.  Do you have a
reference that somehow does away with this teaching of Christ?  Glenn
offered John 3:16, but nothing in this passage supports anything other
than faith is what saves us, and we all agree with that.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

WRONG. IT DOES NOT COME FROM INSTANT BELIEVISM. David, you are as blinded when it comes to this as any person I have ever met. You can't see beyond easy believism to ANYTHING. Because of this you are taken in (deceived) by a works salvation. 

I think if you are honest with examining where you got your viewpoint
here, you will see that it came not from studying the Bible, but from
listening to popular Christian preachers. It comes from the instant
salvation, easy believism kind of Christianity that does not tell
believers to count the cost to see whether or not they can pay the price
it will take to follow Christ.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

There is no need to show you any Bible. You explain away the Bible with humanistic reasoning. Your mind is made up so why confuse you with the truth? You re blinded because of easy believism. If you try to save yourself, David, you will go straight to hell.

The verse about "save yourself". Please, that is not worth answering. This leads me to doubt your sincerity when you bring up this. Surely, you know better, unless it is part of your blindness.

There are definitely two different Davidms.

 you have a
reference that somehow does away with this teaching of Christ? Glenn
offered John 3:16, but nothing in this passage supports anything other
than faith is what saves us, and we all agree with that.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread Terry Clifton







Glenn and Perry:

Salvation does come through faith. We all know that. Where
we have a problem is coming to a conclusion about what 
is incuded in a description of faith. We know that it has to 
include more than simply believing, because as James says,
even the devil believes. We know that love is involved,
because love covers a multitude of sins. We know 
repentance is involved , because without repentance there 
can be no forgiveness. We know obedience is involved
because Jesus asked some who claimed to follow Him in 
word but not in deed, "Why do you call me Lord, when 
you do not do as I tell you to do?" The implication being 
that He was not their Lord, because they did not obey. We 
know that He must increase and we must decrease, and
we know that if we have no works, then we have no faith.

We cannot grab one verse out of God's word and ignore
the thousands of other verses that give us the whole 
picture.

Blessings,

Terry

---Original Message---


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:19:19
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.PerryFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of NumbersDate: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:18:35 ESTGal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when hegoes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the law.Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th DayAdventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult.The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away plainScripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law.  If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS  FINISHED"!  How much more dows it take?   Terry _Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.. 







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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread ttxpress







On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:18:46 + 
"Charles P. Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. 
I, too, understand[..]salvation 
what is 'salvation'?

you know we're in the aftermath of a huge 
snowstorm here, in Denver..in which i saw numerous examples of 'salvation' (imo) 
whengracious peopleusedpowerful vehicles to rescue those who 
were 'powerless' (inc the fact that those who were strong enough to shovel had 
no shovel; also, inc the fact, in some cases, that eventhose who had a 
shovel were too old or already too tiredto shovel any 
more:-)

imo, 'salvation' like this is a power 
question--who has the power to rescue you(?)

in theological terms, sinners don't--and if you 
don't want the spiritual help from the sinless One, or, would rather try to get 
outa the ditch yourself, that still doesn't mean that you have the power of 
'salvation', of 'saving' yourself any more than you could dig yourself out 
ofthe snow banked ditch (above)

in this regard, again, imo, the law is 
useless--it's likethe police coming along and writin' you an expensive 
ticket for gettin' stuckon his sacred street [whereas the 'savior', as 
above, defies the police, would even graciously pay the ticket for 
you---meanwhile, though, hooks you up withhis own 'hummer'--one heck of a 
(salvific) snow machine:-)]

ftr, the foregoing analogyseems like very 
preachable stuff by (e.g.) DrGT and Peter and me, who are not complicating the 
strait forward teaching of the Bible with a Hegalian dialectic like DavidM (and 
French Pres. Chirac) and others prefer to do ['dialectic', whichone can 
demo fromrecent post/s, is DavidM's 'logical' method, rooted in Platonic 
and subsequent Judaistic thought (e.g., Hegelis Jewish) applied to 
biblical thought)]

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Terry, there is Biblical saving faith and there is intellectual faith. I believe that George Washington was President of the United States but I am not believing in GW to take me to heaven.

I am not believing in church membership, perfectionism, baptism, Lord's Supper, works, etc., to take me to heaven.

Glenn and Perry:
 
Salvation does come through faith. We all know that. Where
 we have a problem is coming to a conclusion about what 
is incuded in a description of faith. We know that it has to 
include more than simply believing, because as James says,
 even the devil believes. We know that love is involved,
 because love covers a multitude of sins. We know 
repentance is involved , because without repentance there 
can be no forgiveness. We know obedience is involved
 because Jesus asked some who claimed to follow Him in 
word but not in deed, "Why do you call me Lord, when 
you do not do as I tell you to do?" The implication being 
that He was not their Lord, because they did not obey. We 
know that He must increase and we must decrease, and
 we know that if we have no works, then we have no faith.
 
We cannot grab one verse out of God's word and ignore
 the thousands of other verses that give us the whole 
picture.
 
Blessings,
 
Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Terry wrote:
 If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could 
 not have stated IT IS FINISHED!
 How much more dows it take?

Are you saying that you believe that every prophecy has already been
fulfilled?  Are you saying that the resurrection and eternal judgment
has already taken place?

Saying, It is finished does not mean that everything is finished.
Jesus was talking about his destiny to be the sacrifice for the sins of
the world.  That's what he meant by, it is finished.  

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

What you are saying below is a smoke screen to the truth. It doesn't address the point that the law if over. It is much ado about nothing.

Saying, "It is finished" does not mean that everything is finished.
Jesus was talking about his destiny to be the sacrifice for the sins of
the world. That's what he meant by, "it is finished."

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Glenn wrote:
 I believe that George Washington was President 
 of the United States but I am not believing in 
 GW to take me to heaven. ...
 I am not believing in church membership, 
 perfectionism, baptism, Lord's Supper, 
 works, etc., to take me to heaven.

I haven't heard anyone on TruthTalk argue that church membership,
perfectionism, or the Lord's Supper save men.  I think most of us,
perhaps all of us, have the same concept of faith as what you describe
here.

Glenn, don't you believe that a man with faith will have good works
follow him?  That is what we believe.  Aren't we in agreement with this?
Doesn't faith produce good works?  I don't understand who or what you
are arguing against.  All I can tell is that you have some chip on your
shoulder against me personally.  Why do you hate me so much?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Tremendous post.

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

  David, you are right. I was taught that by preachers. But after I was 
taught that, I learned that it was this truth that awakened Martin Luther 
and thus was one of the foundational tenets of the reformation. Sola Fide, I 
believe it was called.

  I subsequently learned that the pivotal verses that Luther read when he 
rediscovered this truth were Romans 1:16,17. However, that is a reference to 
Habbakuk 2:4, which is yet a reference to Abraham and his faith, which was 
accounted to him as righteousness, as written in Genesis 15:6. This 
certainly goes back a bit further than modern easy believism preachers, 
wouldn't you agree?

  Then, in many other places in the new testament, faith is indicated to be 
that means by which we receive salvation.

  To save oneself, if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, 
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, 
thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; 
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9,10). We 
are not performing a work in this instance...we are accepting the gospel 
of Jesus Christ as the truth; we are believing it; we have faith that what 
God has promised is so. Saving oneself, then, is NOT denying the saving 
nature of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, but accepting it as 
truth.

  Keeping the Lord's commandments does play a part in our belief. Keeping 
His commandments is our RESPONSE to being saved. It is evidence of our 
desire to please Him whose abundant mercy and grace have saved us because of 
our faith. Keeping the commandments is the evidence of the changed life; the 
fruit by which we shall be known.

 You refer to if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Mat. 
19:17). Do you think that this means that if you enter into life (have 
faith), then keep the commandments, or does it mean if you keep my 
commandments, then you will enter into life? I believe the former.

  I do believe that we are expected to keep the commandments, which are 
outlined by Jesus in the verses below, and in other places in the 
scriptures. However, I do not believe that we are expected to live sinless 
lives...in fact, I believe that we cannot. The verse be ye therefore 
perfect because your father in heaven is perfect is the passage commonly 
used as a prooftext for this belief, but if one considers what perfect 
meant in 1611, it does not mean the same as it does today.(* I included the 
strongs definition of perfect and have included it as a footnote. It seems 
the dominant meaning is complete.) Additional verses are found in 1 John 
1:9,10. Why would we need to confess sins if we do not sin?

  By the way, the full verse that you quoted, with those that follow, are:

17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but 
one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18  He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou 
shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false 
witness,
19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as 
thyself.

 I did not see keeping the sabbath in there. Did you? Looks like it is not 
necessary to keep the sabbath in order to enter into life. At least that 
is what Jesus told the one that asked. Why would he omit the first through 
fourth commandments in His response?

Perry

* 5046. teleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of 
labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neut. (as noun, with 
G3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:23:52 -0500
Perry wrote:
 Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand
 that salvation comes through faith, not of works,
 lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8,9)
Amen.  I believe this too.

Perry wrote:
 There is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves.
 It is totally a work of our Lord and Savior.
 To God be the glory for his endless mercy and
 grace.
Ask yourself where you heard this kind of teaching?  I'm talking about
the way you worded your commentary.  Does the Bible teach this anywhere?
What teaching in the Bible supports this idea of NOTHING WE CAN DO to
save ourselves?  (I'm serious... this is not a rhetorical question...
please give me references.)
Didn't Peter preach, save yourselves from this untoward generation
(Acts 2:40)?  What good does it do to tell people to save themselves if
there is nothing they can do?
I think if you are honest with examining where you got your viewpoint
here, you will see that it came not from studying the Bible, but from
listening to popular Christian preachers.  It comes from the instant
salvation, easy believism kind of Christianity that does not tell
believers to count the cost to see whether or not they can pay

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Glenn wrote:
I believe that George Washington was President
of the United States but I am not believing in
GW to take me to heaven. ...
I am not believing in church membership,
perfectionism, baptism, Lord's Supper,
works, etc., to take me to heaven.

I haven't heard anyone on TruthTalk argue that church membership,
perfectionism, or the Lord's Supper save men. I think most of us,
perhaps all of us, have the same concept of faith as what you describe
here.

Glenn, don't you believe that a man with faith will have good works
follow him? That is what we believe. Aren't we in agreement with this?
Doesn't faith produce good works? I don't understand who or what you
are arguing against.

Glenn - Yes, I agree with what you said above. But you double talk. If what you say above is true, then salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. What you say above is the opposite of what you said previously about not believing in salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. You cannot have it both ways.

What you say above means one cannot save themselves. I think you know the context of Acts 2:40.

If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam H. That is the context of Acts 2:40.

All I can tell is that you have some chip on your

shoulder against me personally. Why do you hate me so much?

Glenn - I assure you, I do not hate you. In fact, I like you. I appreciate you very much. I would love to meet you sometime. I think you are as sincere a person as I have ever met. That's why I have come down so hard on you when you get mixed up in a works salvation while giving lip service to a grace salvation.

I love you in the Lord.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread Terry Clifton

Perry:
For the Jewish folk, Galatians 3:24 (Therefore, the law was our
tutorto bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faithhas come, we are no longer under a tutor.)

Being a gentile,I was never under the law. (Lev.27:34)
(The law is for the childrenof Israel) (Romans 2:14 The
gentiles do not have the law.)

Actually, you need to just read the whole book of Galatians
the way it was written, as a letter. A verse here and there does
not give the whole picture. What Paul says is what I think.

Terry

I am also interested in hearing your answer to the second question I asked: "If he did, what does that do to the law under the new covenant?"PerryFrom: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of NumbersDate: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 07:03:23 -0600 (Central Standard Time)Jesus said he came to fulfil the law in 17, and then in 18 said that nothingwill pass from the law until all be fulfilled. My question is, did Jesusfulfil the law? If he did, what does that do to the law under the newcovenant? If he did not, then what did he mean when he said he came tofulfil?PerryIf Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated "IT IS FINISHED! How much more dows it take?Terry_Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed..

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Perry wrote:
 David, you are right. I was taught that by 
 preachers. But after I was taught that, I 
 learned that it was this truth that awakened 
 Martin Luther and thus was one of the foundational 
 tenets of the reformation. Sola Fide, I believe it 
 was called.

Just because it was one of the foundational tenets of the Reformation
does not mean that it was right on.  Sometimes errors are corrected by
an overemphasis in the opposite direction.  When such happens, we should
not take the resultant good fruit as a justification of the absolute
truth of an overemphasis.

The term sola fide means faith alone.  When Luther translated the
Bible, he did something very much like what the Jehovah's Witnesses did
with John 1:1.  The JW's created a translation that added a word to the
verse, so that John 1:1 says that the Word was a god rather than just
saying the Word was God.  Luther created a translation that ADDED the
word sola (alone) to Romans 3:28, so that the passage would read that
man is justified by faith alone (sola fide).  He felt that the context
justified his insertion of this extra word.

Perry wrote:
 I subsequently learned that the pivotal verses 
 that Luther read when he rediscovered this truth 
 were Romans 1:16,17. However, that is a reference
 to Habbakuk 2:4, which is yet a reference to Abraham 
 and his faith, which was accounted to him as righteousness, 
 as written in Genesis 15:6. This certainly goes back 
 a bit further than modern easy believism preachers,
 wouldn't you agree?

Yes, these passages do go further back, but modern easy believism is
fruit from sola fide.  Even Luther recognized this problem in his
later years when he lamented the moral decline of those in the
reformation.

I'm not as comfortable with Martin Luther as you might be.  It bothers
me that he so readily dismissed the faith of so many of the church
fathers, such as Augustine.  Most disconcerting to me, however, is that
he took an outright belligerent stand against men like Copernicus who
believed the earth revolved around the sun.  His attitude was outright
belligerent, kind of like Glenn's attitude toward me, calling him an
upstart astrologer and a fool, and he used the Scriptures to prove a
point which we now know is utterly false.  Of course, he had no respect
whatsoever for James, and Luther declared his epistle not to be of the
Holy Spirit, but rather an epistle of straw and good only to be burned.
I strongly object to Martin Luther in these points, so please try to
understand that from my perspective, mentioning his name hinders rather
than helps any argument for the Biblical justification of sola fide.  If
Luther couldn't justify the idea without cutting out a book from the
Bible and adding to God's Word in another place, I'm skeptical that
modern theologians can do much better.

Perry wrote:
 Then, in many other places in the new testament, 
 faith is indicated to be that means by which we 
 receive salvation.

And I believe this very much, that salvation comes through faith, just
as Paul taught.  Nevertheless, I do not reject the epistle of James, as
Luther did.  I see that faith produces good works, and so I agree with
James that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (James
2:24).

Perry wrote:
 To save oneself, if thou shalt confess with thy 
 mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine 
 heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
 thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth 
 unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is 
 made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9,10). 
 We are not performing a work in this instance...we 
 are accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ as the truth; 
 we are believing it; we have faith that what God has 
 promised is so. 

If you look closely at Romans 10:9,10, you will see that Paul
distinguishes between believing and confessing.  I see confessing as
a work.  It is something which a person does when they believe, it is
something brought about by faith.  Furthermore, I would say that a
person who claims to believe but does not confess does not have saving
faith.

Perry wrote:
 Saving oneself, then, is NOT denying the saving 
 nature of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, 
 but accepting it as truth.

This sounds like intellectual assent to me.  I would say that such faith
cannot save.  Even the devil accepts as truth the saving nature of the
crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ.  Saving faith must be as
Glenn explained it, not just intellectual, but a trust in Christ to
personally save you.

Perry wrote:
 Keeping the Lord's commandments does play a 
 part in our belief.  Keeping His commandments 
 is our RESPONSE to being saved.

I agree. 

Perry wrote:
 You refer to if you will enter into life, keep 
 the commandments (Mat. 19:17). Do you think 
 that this means that if you enter into life 
 (have faith), then keep the commandments, or 
 does it mean if you keep my commandments, then 
 you will enter into life? I believe the

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Glenn wrote:
 But you double talk.  If what you say 
 above is true, then salvation is by grace 
 through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing.  

I see your position as double talk.  You say that works follow faith,
but then you balk if someone suggests that someone might not have saving
faith if they continue in sin.  I believe that righteousness comes by
faith without works, meaning, that the faith itself justifies the person
before God.  Nevertheless, I believe that such faith causes the Spirit
of God to touch the person and cause good works to be manifest in their
life.  Therefore, I do not believe in faith alone like Martin Luther
did or like you do, but rather I believe in faith without works, yet
with good works soon following.  We certainly seem to be splitting hairs
from my perspective.  I really don't understand all the grand standing
about this particular issue.

Glenn wrote:
 What you say above means one cannot save 
 themselves.  I think you know the context 
 of Acts 2:40.  

I agree that we cannot save ourselves, but I do not agree that there is
nothing we can do to save ourselves.  God has extended his salvation to
us, without which no man can be saved.  Furthermore, in our deprived
condition, we would not even be wise enough to accept his plan of
salvation except that he drew us to it by his Spirit.  When that
happens, however, we must yield to him and respond.  There is something
we can do to accept his salvation, and that is respond to him, repent of
our sins and believe in Christ.  There are many things we can do to
facilitate God working in our lives, but without Him, there would be
nothing we could do of our own accord by our own works or by our own
power alone.

Glenn wrote:
 If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants 
 to save themselves, then they must separate 
 themselves from Saddam H.  That is the context 
 of Acts 2:40.

I hope you aren't trying to say that they had to stop being Jews in Acts
2:40.  I hope you understand that in Acts 2:40, nobody asked the
converts to leave Judaism and become Christians.  What was asked of them
was to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ.  Nobody asked
them to change their religion.  Do you see that?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

Again, David, you act like the Church of Christ. I think you should start attending one. You might like it. The Church of Christ attacks the messenger when they can't refute the message. You have attacked the messenger, and you have not refuted salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. 

The term "sola fide" means "faith alone." When Luther translated the
Bible, he did something very much like what the Jehovah's Witnesses did
with John 1:1. The JW's created a translation that added a word to the
verse, so that John 1:1 says that the Word was "a god" rather than just
saying the Word was "God." Luther created a translation that ADDED the
word "sola" (alone) to Romans 3:28, so that the passage would read that
man is justified by "faith alone" (sola fide). He felt that the context
justified his insertion of this extra word.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread Slade Henson




Glenn said...
What you say above means one cannot save 
themselves. I think you know the context of Acts 2:40. If 
the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must 
separate themselves from Saddam H. That is the context of Acts 
2:40.


Uhhh... whatever happened to "salvation 
by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing?" You've 
also said, "I use the term salvation in a 
common sense way. I use the term to mean I have had my sins forgiven and 
the Holy Spirit lives within me." You are now contradicting 
yourself because you said, "If the Republican 
Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves 
from Saddam!" Your suggesting salvation through WORKS for the 
Republican Guard in Baghdad, and I must disagree with you on this point, for 
Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For by grace you have been saved through 
faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of 
works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
But that is followed IMMEDIATELY by:
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, 
which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Are you suggesting that the rest of us can be saved by 
separating ourselves from Saddam as well, or does this LAW apply only to the 
Republican Guard in Baghdad? 

-- slade

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

You are right. I was trying to give an illustration of the context. The context of Acts 2:40 had to do with the evil civilization around them. Below was what I was trying to illustrate. This verse is not about getting saved from my sins but about get saved from physical destruction in context.

The New John Gill Exposition of the Bible

saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation:
meaning, the chief priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, and elders of the people, chiefly, who were a perverse generation of men; and upon whom, for their impenitence and unbelief, for their rejection of the Messiah, and their evil treatment of him, wrath and ruin would come upon them, to the uttermost, very quickly; wherefore the apostle exhorts to separate from them, and not partake of their sins, lest they should also of their plagues; but come out from among them, and so, in a temporal sense, save themselves from the destruction that would quickly come on their nation, city, and temple; and so the Arabic version renders it, "escape from this rough generation".

Glenn said...
What you say above means one cannot save themselves. I think you know the context of Acts 2:40.

If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam H. That is the context of Acts 2:40.

Uhhh... whatever happened to "salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing?" You've also said, "I use the term salvation in a common sense way. I use the term to mean I have had my sins forgiven and the Holy Spirit lives within me." You are now contradicting yourself because you said, "If the Republican Guard in Baghdad wants to save themselves, then they must separate themselves from Saddam!" Your suggesting salvation through WORKS for the Republican Guard in Baghdad, and I must disagree with you on this point, for Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

But that is followed IMMEDIATELY by:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Are you suggesting that the rest of us can be saved by separating ourselves from Saddam as well, or does this LAW apply only to the Republican Guard in Baghdad?

-- slade

RE: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread ShieldsFamily









Terry, How very true. You are quite astute. Izzy



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003
3:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The
Sabbath Breaker of Numbers




 
  
  
  Glenn and Perry:
  
  
  
  
  
  Salvation does come through faith. We all
  know that. Where
  
  
  we have a problem is coming to a conclusion
  about what 
  
  
  is incuded in a description of faith. We know
  that it has to 
  
  
  include more than simply believing, because as
  James says,
  
  
  even the devil believes. We know that
  love is involved,
  
  
  because love covers a multitude of
  sins. We know 
  
  
  repentance is involved , because without repentance
  there 
  
  
  can be no forgiveness. We know obedience is
  involved
  
  
  because Jesus asked some who claimed to
  follow Him in 
  
  
  word but not in deed, Why do you call
  me Lord, when 
  
  
  you do not do as I tell you to do? The
  implication being 
  
  
  that He was not their Lord, because they did not
  obey. We 
  
  
  know that He must increase and we must decrease,
  and
  
  
  we know that if we have no works, then we
  have no faith.
  
  
  
  
  
  We cannot grab one verse out of God's word and
  ignore
  
  
  the thousands of other verses that give us
  the whole 
  
  
  picture.
  
  
  
  
  
  Blessings,
  
  
  
  
  
  Terry
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ---Original Message---
  
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  Date: Saturday,
  March 22, 2003 10:19:19
  
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
  The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
  
  
  
  
  
  Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that
  salvation comes 
  through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph
  2:8,9) There 
  is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves. It is totally a work of our Lord and 
  Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.
  
  Perry
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers
  Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:18:35 EST
  
  Gal. 5:1. I honestly believe the Bible teaches a person backslides when
  he
  goes from salvation by grace through faith to mixing salvation with the 
  law.
  Gal. 5:4. It is obvious that Christ has become of no effect to 7th Day
  Adventists and others on TT that take up for the 7th Day cult.
  
  The reason this might be true of _ is because __ explains away 
  plain
  Scripture on the fulfillment of the OT _law.
  
If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, He could not have stated
  IT IS
FINISHED!
How much more dows it take?
   
Terry
   
  
  
  
  _
  Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. 
  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
  
  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
  know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
  
  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
  you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to
  send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  and he will be subscribed.
  
  . 
  
 
 
  
  
   









   
  
  
  
 



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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread Dave Hansen



Charles P. Locke wrote:

 Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. I, too, understand that salvation comes
 through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8,9) There
 is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves.

DAVEH:   Perry..Does repentance have anything to do with salvation?  IOW, can 
those who don't repent be saved?

 It is totally a work of our Lord and
 Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and grace.

 Perry

--
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain Five email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers

2003-03-22 Thread Marlin Halverson




1CO 15:2 By which also ye are 
saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have 
believed in vain.
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Hansen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of 
Numbers
   
"Charles P. Locke" wrote:   Hey, Glenn, you are not alone. 
I, too, understand that salvation comes  through faith, "not of 
works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8,9) There  is NOTHING WE 
CAN DO to save ourselves.  DAVEH: Perry..Does 
repentance have anything to do with salvation? IOW, can those who don't 
repent be saved?   It is totally a work of our Lord 
and  Savior. To God be the glory for his endless mercy and 
grace.   Perry  -- 
~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com 
~~~ If you wish to receive things 
I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... 
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. 
  -- "Let your speech be always with grace, 
seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org  
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will 
be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send 
an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Sabbath Breaker of Numbers