Re: [Vo]: Atomic Collapse observed
Is there any evidence which suggests this phenomenon is responsible for LENR? It looks intriguing, but I'm not aware of how this would effect any current theories. On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.comwrote: Predicted Atomic Collapse phenomenon observed: http://www.rdmag.com/news/2013/03/long-predicted-atomic-collapse-state-observed-graphene
[Vo]:chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
[Vo]:Anomalous heat effect t-shirt
This is sorta cute. http://coldfusionnow.org/store/anomalous-heat-effect-t-shirt/
Re: [Vo]:A Motto for ICCF-19
http://coldfusionnow.org/store/stickers/ Harry On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: And realistic too: The heat is on? I remember what you have asked yesterday. But it will be on, and will be great and good. Peter On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:32 PM, DJ Cravens djcrav...@hotmail.com wrote: Mottos should be short and sweet: The heat is on. Dennis Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:14:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [Vo]:A Motto for ICCF-19 From: peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Thank you! It is still plenty of time to take an informed decision. The Outsiders will surely help. Peter On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Peter came up with: ”Solving the useful heat source problem.” That seems a little presumptuous. Maybe it should be: Trying to solve the useful heat source problem. Hoping to solve the useful heat source problem. Hoping to get some sort of heat, useful or not. Wishing we would make some sort of progress in trying to solve even the useless heat problem. - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
[Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp's secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm The HCl reaction happens once - and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are stripped from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. From: Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded feature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the Papp engine works and other versions of the Papp engines don’t. Papp cooled the gas in the return stroke of the cycle by using radio frequency (RF) in the CB band to reconstitute the photo-active structure of the gases. Cheers: axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp’s secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). ** ** http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm ** ** The HCl reaction happens once – and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. ** ** The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. ** ** Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Whoa. Think about what you claiming Axil. Cooling an expanding gas - by adding energy in the form of RF LOL. And if that is not enough, splitting the HCl acid molecule back into elemental form at the same time it is being cooled. Sure, there is laser cooling of bosons at near absolute zero, but are you trying to shoehorn that phenomenon - which is not RF to being with and only happens cryogenically - into a general ability to cool a hot gas with RF, and at the same time split the HCL back to H2 and Cl2 ? Where is the proof of this? You are doubling or tripling the miracles which are needed to make this thing work. Even those with an open mind cannot accept that a known conman, Papp - who claimed to have invented a 300 mph submarine, until that con was exposed - was next able to invent a first miraculous device which worked with radium, and then when he could no longer obtain radium, invented a second miraculous device that worked by recycling hydrochloric acid; but in which the acid did not attack the metal walls AND in addition, could be split and cooled at the same time. Even you cannot believe that is remotely possible ! From: Axil Axil Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the Papp engine works and other versions of the Papp engines don't. Papp cooled the gas in the return stroke of the cycle by using radio frequency (RF) in the CB band to reconstitute the photo-active structure of the gases. Cheers: axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp's secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm The HCl reaction happens once - and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are stripped from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. From: Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded feature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
Re: [Vo]:Anomalous heat effect t-shirt
I wore one up the North coast of California to Eureka after the The Believers screening in San Jose. On my way back down to LA, I stopped in the Solar Living Institute in Hopland to drop some CF advocacy. http://www.solarliving.org/ They had a picture of Nikola Tesla spray-painted on an outside structure, so I thought they might be open. I spoke for quite a bit with the Asst. Manager of the Real Goods store there, and used my t-shirt that I was wearing to indicate what cold fusion started out as, and what is being developed. It really worked well. I have to write up the report on that field trip... I will contact them again about possibly putting a Cold Fusion Now booth at their Earth Day Festival on April 20. Ruby On 3/14/13 6:31 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: This is sorta cute. http://coldfusionnow.org/store/anomalous-heat-effect-t-shirt/ -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org mailto:r...@coldfusionnow.org United States 1-707-616-4894 Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org http://www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
I would stick to the plasmoid theory. Anything with an oid at the end makes it sound more believable :) On Thursday, March 14, 2013, Jones Beene wrote: Whoa. Think about what you claiming Axil. ** ** “Cooling an expanding gas - by adding energy in the form of RF” ** ** LOL. And if that is not enough, splitting the HCl acid molecule back into elemental form at the same time it is being cooled. ** ** Sure, there is laser cooling of bosons at near absolute zero, but are you trying to shoehorn that phenomenon – which is not RF to being with and only happens cryogenically - into a general ability to cool a hot gas with RF, and at the same time split the HCL back to H2 and Cl2 ? Where is the proof of this? ** ** You are doubling or tripling the miracles which are needed to make this thing work. ** ** Even those with an open mind cannot accept that a known conman, Papp - who claimed to have invented a 300 mph submarine, until that con was exposed - was next able to invent a first miraculous device which worked with radium, and then when he could no longer obtain radium, invented a second miraculous device that worked by recycling hydrochloric acid; but in which the acid did not attack the metal walls AND in addition, could be split and cooled at the same time. ** ** Even you cannot believe that is remotely possible ! ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the Papp engine works and other versions of the Papp engines don’t. Papp cooled the gas in the return stroke of the cycle by using radio frequency (RF) in the CB band to reconstitute the photo-active structure of the gases. Cheers: axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp’s secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm The HCl reaction happens once – and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent.
[Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs? http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/14/tiny-nuclear-reactions-inside-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
The W-L theory again! It sure wins on PR. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
First, Papp did not use hydrogen. He may have used chlorine as a secret enhancement. Chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser) is a form of ultraviolet laser in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. An excerpt from my monograph on the Papp engine to be published sometime this summer as follows: The study of Xenon is currently a large field of physics and chemistry in its own right. Xenon is an uncommon element in the way it behaves. For one thing, Xenon will convert nuclear radiation into charged electrons which makes xenon pass a current as low as one volt as a conductive thermionic diode in nuclear reactors. In plain language, Xenon converts high energy EMF radiation into electrons. Xenon is easily ionized and can develop very large positive charge. Xenon forms clusters when it is cooled. But this cooling that we are talking about here is the removal or transition of the various kinds of kinetic energy that the Xenon atom possesses. This cooling can be done through the transfer of translational, rotational and vibrational energy to another atom. For example, Krypton atoms serve this function as a cooling agent of Xenon. In explanation, when Xenon is forced to move in a coherent direction in a group, translational, rotational and vibrational energy is converted to directional energy and the Xenon atoms are cooled but still energetic. Typical set-up for cooling noble gases is the supersonic beam technique. Such cooling can be done using radio frequency when the ionized Xenon atoms are forced to move back and forth in unison. Any kinetic energy that the Xenon atoms have is converted to directional energy. So in plain language, Radio frequency will catalyze the formation of Xenon clusters as the atoms of Xenon are cooled by coherent motion. *The Roundup* Think of a collection of Noble gas atoms as a herd of cattle. To begin with the cattle roam around on the prairie aimlessly with boundless energy but not applied to any purpose. To build a herd for a cattle drive, the cowpunchers prod the cattle into a tight bunch during the roundup. Then the drovers get the cattle to all go in the same direction as a herd. The drovers pack them close, shoulder to short ribs. The cows have little room but to march forward hardly able to move their heads. The cattle are all contented and well behaved and centered on the mindless march forward, but they are still are exerting a large amount of energy as they stumble forward to cover ground. In this analogy, the cowpokes are radio frequency radiation (RF) and the constraining coils. Papp talks about using RF in his engines. Xenon is easy to excite using RF because its binding energy is low: many orders of magnitude lower than hydrogen. The RF also produces clusters because the RF get noble gas atoms to all go in the same direction and the coils pack them tight.. Xenon strongly interacts with RF because these molecules have good dipole characteristics like water. Noble gases can combine and readily form clusters that can be very complex. For example, Helium and Xenon form a family of atomic clusters that behaves like argon. Excited Clusters have a positively charged ionic core composed of possibly hundreds or thousands of ionized atoms. Around this core of positive charge ions swarm a loosely connected flight of electrons orbiting on the outside of the cluster core and can be easily removed from the cluster by ionization. cheers:axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Whoa. Think about what you claiming Axil. ** ** “Cooling an expanding gas - by adding energy in the form of RF” ** ** LOL. And if that is not enough, splitting the HCl acid molecule back into elemental form at the same time it is being cooled. ** ** Sure, there is laser cooling of bosons at near absolute zero, but are you trying to shoehorn that phenomenon – which is not RF to being with and only happens cryogenically - into a general ability to cool a hot gas with RF, and at the same time split the HCL back to H2 and Cl2 ? Where is the proof of this? ** ** You are doubling or tripling the miracles which are needed to make this thing work. ** ** Even those with an open mind cannot accept that a known conman, Papp - who claimed to have invented a 300 mph submarine, until that con was exposed - was next able to invent a first miraculous device which worked with radium, and then when he could no longer obtain radium, invented a second miraculous device that worked by recycling hydrochloric acid; but in which the acid did not attack the metal walls AND in addition, could be split and cooled at the same time. ** ** Even you cannot believe that is remotely possible ! ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
I keep burning the damn things out at home, they were supposed to last 10 years! On Thursday, March 14, 2013, Jed Rothwell wrote: The W-L theory again! It sure wins on PR. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: I keep burning the damn things out at home, they were supposed to last 10 years! That's odd. Mine last 10 years or more. Maybe you have too much electricity? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
More importantly, if transmutations actually occur in CFLs, Li-batteries, or in similar environments, and can be verified, then LENR becomes very difficult to deny - if experiments are carefully controlled. Testable predictions should be tested. -- Lou Pagnucco Jed Rothwell wrote: The W-L theory again! It sure wins on PR. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Are you saying Papp removed the .02% heavy water that occurs naturally in water? On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
The rated CFL life as claimed by manufacturers is based on 3-hour-on/ 20- minutes- off cycle of operation. In actual applications, the CFLs are switched on and off at different rates and under different climatic conditions. Therefore the actual life of CFL is different than the rated or predicted life. If CFLs are started more frequently than the standard 3-hour on/ 20-minute off i.e. shorter cycles operation- they will have statistically shorter life than their rated life. http://rtf.nwcouncil.org/meetings/2009/05/CFLCyclingImpacts_PhysicalBackground.pdf
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
I didn't think cfls had been at Home Depot for 10 years? Are you thinking
regular fluorescents?
On Thursday, March 14, 2013, Jed Rothwell wrote:
ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'cheme...@gmail.com'); wrote:
I keep burning the damn things out at home, they were supposed to last 10
years!
That's odd. Mine last 10 years or more. Maybe you have too much
electricity?
- Jed
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
From: Axil Axil First, Papp did not use hydrogen. He may have used chlorine as a secret enhancement. In the last patent he specifically used chlorine and water. The water would be the source of hydrogen. Chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser) is a form of ultraviolet laser in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. Yes but these lasers are extraordinarily inefficient. No way are your going to self-power an engine with a laser that is at most 5% efficient (P-in to P-out). Where is the source of excess energy?
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't think cfls had been at Home Depot for 10 years? Are you thinking regular fluorescents? I don't know about Home Depot. They first started selling in the 1980s: http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://americanhistory.si.edu/lighting/20thcent/invent20.htm%23in4 I think I have had some for 20 years, especially a seldom used one in a hallway. Wikipedia says the first one was introduced in 1980: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp The 1990 Scientific American Special Issue on energy discusses them a lot. They were widespread by then. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
In the first Papp design, he did use water and chlorine with the addition of some types of noble gases. He changed his design to use only noble gases in the second design. Cheers:Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:07 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Are you saying Papp removed the .02% heavy water that occurs naturally in water? On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
No - I am saying that if he did use D for the gain, the engine would become strongly radioactive in a short time from neutron activation of the engine block and pistons. More specifically, if deuterium was providing neutrons for over 100 HP of gain as in the claim, Papp and the other observers would have been dead from radiation poisoning in a few hours of run time. From: James Bowery Are you saying Papp removed the .02% heavy water that occurs naturally in water?
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster’s inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by “barrier suppression ionization”, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. *Where Excess Power Comes From* The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. “Barrier suppression ionization” changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction process because the cluster stays together for a longer time and therefore more energy can be “pulled out of the vacuum”. The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce. The more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This energy goes up exponentially with the ionization level. With xenon, the ionization level can go up to +40. You can only imagine how powerful those exploding xenon ions can become. The other noble gases behave
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html From: Axil Axil More from the Monograph as follows: Where does the explosive force come from? The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let's, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is barrier suppression ionization. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster's inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by barrier suppression ionization, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. Where Excess Power Comes From The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. Barrier suppression ionization changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction process because the cluster stays together for a longer time and therefore more energy can be pulled out of the vacuum. The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce. The more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This
Re: [Vo]:Peswiki : Yildiz / Turkish Magnetic Motor 30-day University Test
At 01:35 PM 1/9/2013, Alan Fletcher wrote: Old news : Magnet motor demonstrated at Delft University (2010) http://pesn.com/2010/04/22/9501639_Yildiz_demonstrates_magnet_motor_at_Delft_University/ Doesn't run long enough to demonstrate non-fake, but broken down into fairly small sub-assemblies. BSMH-Yildiz' All-Magnet-Motor 30-Day University Test Pending http://pesn.com/2013/01/04/9602242_BSMH-Yildiz_All-Magnet-Motor_30-Day_University_Test_Pending/ Was originally planned as a 3-day test in a hotel room, now rescheduled as a 30-day test at Eindhoven U. Q and A on background http://pesn.com/2013/03/11/9602287_Yildiz_Magnet_Motor--Turning_to_Public_Instead_of_Universities_for_First_Major_Validation/ The (still un-named) University reneges on the terms. It was to be a black box test but now they insist on seeing the internals : ... The only thing that is needed to prove that the motor works is time running, powering a load, to show that no known technology could possibly provide that much power that could be contained in the size of the apparatus. That's all. They don't need to look inside. That's protected information and will be until a PCT patent can be filed. ... The one university at which he was supposed to begin a 30-day test in the middle of January, at first had agreed to the 'black box' terms that Yildiz had stipulated, but then changed the criteria and said they must look inside and measure the magnets before, during, and after. They forgot that their purpose isn't to scientifically document the minutia of the technology but just to validate that it works. ...
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: ** ** http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”.* *** The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster’s inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by “barrier suppression ionization”, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. *Where Excess Power Comes From* The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. “Barrier suppression ionization” changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
This CFL story could create as much buzz as the Rossi demo from january 2011. harry On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:24 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs? http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/14/tiny-nuclear-reactions-inside-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
At 8:40 into the video, the power of the Papp reaction is deminstrated. The barrel was four feet long, four inches in diameter, made of a three foot length of 3-inch schedule 50 stainless steel pipe (0.6 inch wall thickness) anchored and totally encased in a heavy one-foot thick reinforced concrete containment block. The breech was loaded with just 10cc’s of Papp’s inert noble gas mix. For the breech, he used a spare cylinder head from one of his engines; for a projectile, he machined a piece of steel. Papp filled the cylinder head with his gas mix from five separate flasks and hooked up the power. Then Papp hit the start button. We heard this tremendous explosion. It was a low rumble, like a bass sound, one witness there said. The projectile jammed halfway up the barrel and ripped the cannon in half. The back of the gun flared open like a stainless steel tulip strewn with metal fragments. The concrete containment was mostly blasted into the air as a cloud reduced to rubble and dust. It also punched a crater about 3-feet in diameter and about 3-feet deep into the rocky desert hardpan and the 1-foot thick platform of plywood and 2x8 planks upon which all rested was reduced to a shower of splinters. This cannon and everything that Papp did was patented. This official validation of a LERN technology is unprecedented. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: ** ** http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
A couple of blasting caps is easily concealed by a scam artist who can build a 300 mph submarine using parts from a washing machine . From: Axil Axil If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded feature=player_embedded You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html From: Axil Axil More from the Monograph as follows: Where does the explosive force come from? The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let's, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is barrier suppression ionization. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster's inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by barrier suppression ionization, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. Where Excess Power Comes From The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. Barrier suppression ionization changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
The Papp cannon test was moderated under the control, supervision, and auspices of the US Navy and their various subcontractors. Also, Papp's last two-cylinder engine finally ran, on June 18, 1981. A videotape of that demonstration was sent to the patent office to validate the new engine's patent application. It was granted. And even more, the patent office was so impressed that it nominated his engine as one of the year's best patents, but consistent with his strange ways, Papp refused to participate in the award ceremony. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: A couple of blasting caps is easily concealed by a scam artist who can build a 300 mph submarine using parts from a washing machine … ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html *From:* Axil Axil More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”.* *** The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster’s inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by “barrier suppression ionization”, the designers
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: This CFL story could create as much buzz as the Rossi demo from january 2011. Except it is probably not true. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Peswiki : Yildiz / Turkish Magnetic Motor 30-day University Test
Insanity is not beyond academia, as we have tragically witnessed with the tyranny of theory over experiment in the history of LENR. However, this particular form of insanity is more interesting. Why, of they are willing to let experiment have its proper place, do they insist on interfering with the agreed-upon experimental protocol in such a way as to endanger the practicality of the experiment -- said practicality including the obvious issues of trade secrecy? No academic institution of the modern era can be that naive. Indeed, this is so incredibly naive of a modern academic institution that, otherwise, is engaged in rational empiricism, that it is probable that Yildiz is substantively misrepresenting the interaction, which throws the entirety of Yildiz's claims into additional suspicion. On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 01:35 PM 1/9/2013, Alan Fletcher wrote: Old news : Magnet motor demonstrated at Delft University (2010) http://pesn.com/2010/04/22/9501639_Yildiz_demonstrates_magnet_motor_at_Delft_University/ Doesn't run long enough to demonstrate non-fake, but broken down into fairly small sub-assemblies. BSMH-Yildiz' All-Magnet-Motor 30-Day University Test Pending http://pesn.com/2013/01/04/9602242_BSMH-Yildiz_All-Magnet-Motor_30-Day_University_Test_Pending/ Was originally planned as a 3-day test in a hotel room, now rescheduled as a 30-day test at Eindhoven U. Q and A on background http://pesn.com/2013/03/11/9602287_Yildiz_Magnet_Motor--Turning_to_Public_Instead_of_Universities_for_First_Major_Validation/ The (still un-named) University reneges on the terms. It was to be a black box test but now they insist on seeing the internals : ... The only thing that is needed to prove that the motor works is time running, powering a load, to show that no known technology could possibly provide that much power that could be contained in the size of the apparatus. That's all. They don't need to look inside. That's protected information and will be until a PCT patent can be filed. ... The one university at which he was supposed to begin a 30-day testhttp://peswiki.com/index.php/Event:2013:Validating_Muammer_Yildiz%27_Magnet_Motor_for_30_Days_at_European_Universityin the middle of January, at first had agreed to the 'black box' terms that Yildiz had stipulated, but then changed the criteria and said they must look inside and measure the magnets before, during, and after. They forgot that their purpose isn't to scientifically document the minutia of the technology but just to validate that it works. ...
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Axil, you shouldn't be name-dropping if you do not know the facts. Did you check to see if McKubre has a financial interest in one (or more) of the companies promoting the Papp technology? He was on the Board of one of them several years ago IIRC. This does not mean that he cannot offer an unbiased opinion, but notice that he does not speak from personal experience . it is what Bob told me and it is about events that happened over thirty years ago. Since he cannot personally vouch for having seen an engine self-running - then why mention his name? Answer: because all the other evidence is even weaker. Where is the magic engine from the Nolan demo? Or the affidavits that the Patent Office cannot find. Do you have a million dollar (no billion dollar) engine running - and then later send it to the junk yard, retire to Florida and never mention it again? Maybe you do if you know it was ever more a scam. From: Axil Axil From the panel, McKubre felt compelled to offer testimony to the validity, promise, power and the mystery of Papp technology.
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
Maybe PR is what we need to get LENR through the current phase of development. I think of the W-L theory as the Politically Correct Roundabout Theory of LENR. They go out of their way to proclaim loudly that it's not cold fusion. Original article, so it can be posted elsewhere: | 3/14/2013 @ 12:35PM |612 views Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs? Comment Nowhttp://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/14/tiny-nuclear-reactions-inside-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/#comment_reply Follow CommentsFollowing CommentsUnfollow Comments javascript://follow [image: Compact fluorescent light bulb]http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Compact-Fluorescent-Bulb.jpg (Photo credit: Wikipedia) Harmless low-energy nuclear reactions may be taking place routinely inside of compact fluorescent lightbulbs, according to a physicist whose theories have NASA researchershttp://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/02/22/nasa-a-nuclear-reactor-to-replace-your-water-heater/abuzz with the prospect of cheap, non-polluting energy. Nuclear reactions may be responsible for an unusual fingerprint of mercury isotopes in used fluorescents that can identify environmental pollution from the bulbs, said Lewis Larsen, a Chicago physicist associated with the Widom-Larsen Theory http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml, which explores slow nuclear reactions among elements that are not radioactive. “Unbeknownst to the general public, dynamically active nuclear processes are presently occurring in tens of millions of households worldwide,” Larsen told me. “Fortunately, there aren’t any radiological health risks associated with CFLs because no hard radiation is emitted from them, ” Larsen said, “ and no environmentally hazardous, long-lived radioactive isotopes are typically created by LENRs (low energy nuclear reactions).” Larsen has suspected low energy nuclear reactions occur in CFLs, he told me, and is encouraged by a February study of used bulbs that found isotopes of mercury that more conventional theories cannot explain. Move up http://i.forbesimg.com tMove down http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/02/22/nasa-a-nuclear-reactor-to-replace-your-water-heater/NASA: A Nuclear Reactor To Replace Your Water Heater http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/02/22/nasa-a-nuclear-reactor-to-replace-your-water-heater/[image: Jeff McMahon]*Jeff McMahon*Contributorhttp://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/ The authors of that study analyzed used fluorescent bulbs looking for a unique fingerprint of mercury isotopes. If they could find a unique fingerprint, researchers could identify mercury pollution in the environment that comes from discarded fluorescents: “All fluorescent lamps use mercury (Hg) and can be a source of Hg to the environment when broken,” write the authors, led by Chris Mead of Arizona State University’s Global Institute of Sustainability, in a February issue of Environmental Science and Technologyhttp://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es303940p(subscription required). As compact fluorescents command a larger share of the lighting market, the researchers expect mercury pollution from the bulbs to increase: “The share of atmospheric anthropogenic Hg emissions represented by fluorescent lightbulbs in the United States is 1–5 percent. Only a third of fluorescent lightbulbs are recycled. As fluorescent lighting continues to supplant incandescent lighting, and as emissions from large point sources of Hg, such as coal-fired power plants and municipal waste incinerators are reduced, fluorescents will become an increasingly important source of Hg to the environment. Therefore, a method to detect and quantify Hg derived from fluorescents would be very useful.” The researchers found their unique fingerprint for mercury from fluorescent bulbs. But they can’t explain why it’s so unique: “The trapped Hg of used CFL show unusually large isotopic fractionation (the distribution of mercury into its various isotopes), the pattern of which is entirely different from that which has been observed in previous Hg isotope research aside from intentional isotope enrichment.” Larsen believes he knows why the mercury isotopes in used CFLs are different: “When viewed through the conceptual lens of the Widom-Larsen theory, Mead et al.’s carefully collected Hg isotope data suggests that low energy nuclear reaction (LENR) transmutations may actually be occurring at extremely low rates in CFLs during normal operation,” he said. And that should make the idea of home nuclear reactors less frightening, Larsen said. “If this outstanding new data is substantiated by further experimentation, it provides yet more proof that LENRs are likely to be a truly ‘green,’ safe nuclear technology.” Larsen hopes to demonstrate that low-energy nuclear reactions are safe, green and commonplace in part to distinguish them from fission reactions that produce dangerous ionizing radiation in conventional reactors. He has found
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
IIsn’t this a testimony to first hand experimental experience? “…I said ok, a different group in a similar configuration, if you can show me ten times more energy coming out than the electrical energy input, and my day job is, as I said, is careful measurements of energy. Input energy, output energy. So we set up the test, showed them what to do, made the measurements. And yes, there was at least ten times more energy being produced than electrical input energy. And at that point, I got semi-hooked. If not a firsthand testimony, what do these words say in reality? …another con man? Chees: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Axil, you shouldn’t be name-dropping if you do not know the facts. ** ** Did you check to see if McKubre has a financial interest in one (or more) of the companies promoting the Papp technology? He was on the Board of one of them several years ago IIRC. ** ** This does not mean that he cannot offer an unbiased opinion, but notice that he does not speak from personal experience … it is “what Bob told me” and it is about events that happened over thirty years ago. Since he cannot personally vouch for having seen an engine self-running – then why mention his name? ** ** Answer: because all the other evidence is even weaker. ** ** Where is the magic engine from the Nolan demo? Or the affidavits that the Patent Office cannot find. Do you have a million dollar (no billion dollar) engine running - and then later send it to the junk yard, retire to Florida and never mention it again? Maybe you do if you know it was ever more a scam. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil *Fr*om the panel, McKubre felt compelled to offer testimony to the validity, promise, power and the mystery of Papp technology. ** **
Re: [Vo]:Forbes: Tiny Nuclear Reactions Inside Compact Fluorescent Bulbs?
Jed, Do you mean that W-L is probably not true? - or that the various experiments reporting transmutations are false? - if you think the experiments reporting transmutations were accurately performed, what theory do you favor? -- Lou Pagnucco Jed Rothwell wrote: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: This CFL story could create as much buzz as the Rossi demo from january 2011. Except it is probably not true. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
This is not consistent with what Bob Rohner told me, as of last August, about his popper. He said he could not yet attest over-unity, although possibly because his measurement instrumentation was inadequate. On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: IIsn’t this a testimony to first hand experimental experience? “…I said ok, a different group in a similar configuration, if you can show me ten times more energy coming out than the electrical energy input, and my day job is, as I said, is careful measurements of energy. Input energy, output energy. So we set up the test, showed them what to do, made the measurements. And yes, there was at least ten times more energy being produced than electrical input energy. And at that point, I got semi-hooked. If not a firsthand testimony, what do these words say in reality? …another con man? Chees: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Axil, you shouldn’t be name-dropping if you do not know the facts. ** ** Did you check to see if McKubre has a financial interest in one (or more) of the companies promoting the Papp technology? He was on the Board of one of them several years ago IIRC. ** ** This does not mean that he cannot offer an unbiased opinion, but notice that he does not speak from personal experience … it is “what Bob told me” and it is about events that happened over thirty years ago. Since he cannot personally vouch for having seen an engine self-running – then why mention his name? ** ** Answer: because all the other evidence is even weaker. ** ** Where is the magic engine from the Nolan demo? Or the affidavits that the Patent Office cannot find. Do you have a million dollar (no billion dollar) engine running - and then later send it to the junk yard, retire to Florida and never mention it again? Maybe you do if you know it was ever more a scam. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil *Fr*om the panel, McKubre felt compelled to offer testimony to the validity, promise, power and the mystery of Papp technology. ** **
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:07:05 -0400: Hi, [snip] mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yes, I know, but my way is better. It's completely automatic. Kind of problematic though. What if the voltage does not drop in my locale but the power company wants to reduce power anyway? You are talking about reducing power consumption at times of high demand. I was talking about increasing it at times of low demand. More accurately, moving the new load that lots of electrical vehicles will add, to times when excess power is available. That would be e.g. when it's windy. However there is also the possibility that a parked vehicle that already had fully charged batteries could return some power if the voltage dropped below a certain level. Whether or not it did so, would depend on the car knowing when next it would be used, and calculating how long it would take to recharge what it had sold back to the power company. This isn't a panacea, but it would help even out supply and demand. Essentially all the nation's electric vehicles would be acting as a large battery storage for wind and solar power. That would mean that wind and solar could increase their share of the total supply. It's comparable to a free market compared to centralized control in a communist system. Besides who wants a centralized authority turning off the power that is charging their car? A bit too much room for abuse IMO. I can't imagine what kind of abuse there could be. Suppose that someone who doesn't like you decides to tell the power company computer to tell your car to stop charging, so that come morning, when you are about to drive away, you discover that you have a flat battery. Suppose that this happens regularly to people that someone in government considers to be trouble makers. Anyway, if they want to give me a reduced rate in return for this, I would be pleased. That's a decision that each car owner should be able to make for themselves. When corporations and factories give the power company remote access to turn down their equipment, they get a price break. That's fine, as long as it remains within control of the individual. I.e. it should be possible to press a button in your car, allowing you to opt out at any time. With the smart meter, I get a price break now, for not using power during peak summer hours. - Jed ...and there is no reason why the mechanism I described above shouldn't also lead to a price break. The only difference is that mine is automatic, whereas yours is controlled by a central computer at the power company. Smart meters log exactly when you consume power, so the power company can compare this to the times when excess power was available, and charge you a lower rate accordingly. Since my method results in automatic matching, you always get the lowest possible rate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Jim, why assume the neutron is stripped from the D? This requires 1.7 MeV/event. Where does this amount of energy come from? We know that fractofusion occurs when D is present and this produces neutrons. An explosive reaction would certainly create cracks in the container that could cause this version of hot fusion. Ed On Mar 14, 2013, at 3:21 PM, James Bowery wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in that case. Normal water is 0.02% D2O, so can't we expect: 2014101.77812 + 15994914.61957 = 16999131.75650 + 1007825.03223 + 2059.609uamu energy D + O16 = O17 + H + 2059.609uamu energy in appropriately dilute amounts?
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:11 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Smart meters log exactly when you consume power, so the power company can compare this to the times when excess power was available, and charge you a lower rate accordingly. They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes.
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: However there is also the possibility that a parked vehicle that already had fully charged batteries could return some power if the voltage dropped below a certain level. I see. They have arrangements like that for people with rooftop PV electricity. I think the equipment is expensive. It would not be practical until millions of plug-in cars are in use. I can't imagine what kind of abuse there could be. Suppose that someone who doesn't like you decides to tell the power company computer to tell your car to stop charging, so that come morning, when you are about to drive away, you discover that you have a flat battery. In my wildest imagination I cannot imagine the power company doing that. I am pretty sure you could sue them up the wazzoo. I am also pretty sure that a person driving a fully electric car has to pay close attention to the battery level, so you would notice, and this nefarious plan would fail. With a plug-in hybrid this would not work. You would spend a dollar extra on gasoline. Suppose that this happens regularly to people that someone in government considers to be trouble makers. The power company is not the government. And the government does not do things like that. It does not want to draw attention to itself. Anyway, if they want to give me a reduced rate in return for this, I would be pleased. That's a decision that each car owner should be able to make for themselves. That's how it works. You have to sign up for these things. They do not give you the price break without a contract. Georgia Power doesn't, anyway. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes. They don't, but the power company sends you a magnetic sticker for the refrigerator showing the rates and times of day, which is just as good. I guess you could ask for another to stick on the dryer. It is a cute sticker. I cannot find an image of it. I found that a group of people thinks smart meters are making them sick: http://www.stopsmartmetersgeorgia.org/ They say this is caused by the radio transmission from the meters. These transmissions last about 1 s per day, so I doubt there is a problem. I do worry a little about WiFi in the house. Our WiFi transmitter is right next to where my wife works all day. I should move it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
Some utilities are forced to charge a fixed price per kilowatt for generation to foster pricing competition. Distribution and maintenance is also fixed pricing. For those utilities, it seems to me that the smart meter cannot be used to benefit these customers so afflicted. axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes. They don't, but the power company sends you a magnetic sticker for the refrigerator showing the rates and times of day, which is just as good. I guess you could ask for another to stick on the dryer. It is a cute sticker. I cannot find an image of it. I found that a group of people thinks smart meters are making them sick: http://www.stopsmartmetersgeorgia.org/ They say this is caused by the radio transmission from the meters. These transmissions last about 1 s per day, so I doubt there is a problem. I do worry a little about WiFi in the house. Our WiFi transmitter is right next to where my wife works all day. I should move it. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
From: Edmund Storms Jim, why assume the neutron is stripped from the D? This requires 1.7 MeV/event. No it doesn't - that number is way off - 3 orders of magnitude off. Neutron stripping occurs as low as 10 keV. See Tom Ligon's IE article. The Farnsworth Fusor is documented proof of large neutron production at keV energy levels. Here is another version of Ligon's article. One can argue the point of whether this is due to Boltzmann's tail of the energy distribution or Oppenheimer-Philips stripping, but one must accept that it is far removed from 1.7 MeV/event. http://www.fusor.net/newbie/files/Ligon-QED-IE.pdf Jones
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:49:18 -0700: Hi, [snip] For what it's worth: 1) The chemical chain reaction that occurs when H2 and CL2 combine looks like this: H2 + Cl = HCL + H H + CL2 = HCL + Cl The UV light is needed to create a few free radicals to start the process. Note that atomic H is one of the intermediaries, and 2) According to Mills, HCL is a Hydrino catalyst. H + HCL = Hy. So if this reaction is occurring then it would be OU, and the HCL formed could be recycled externally into H2 and Cl2 (as Scragg suggested.) I wonder if the reaction is so powerful when Bromine is substituted for Chlorine? (AFAIK Mills hasn't claimed that HBr is a Mills catalyst.) I wrote to Mills years ago pointing out the Scragg patents. Perhaps that's what led him to determine that HCL was a catalyst. [snip] The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are stripped from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Note also that if D is present in H (and there usually is), then one might expect deuterinos to form. A severely shrunken HD molecule might get close enough to the Cl nucleus for the neutron to jump ship and tunnel into the Cl nucleus. e.g. 35Cl + Dnucleus = 36Cl + proton + 6.35 MeV or 37Cl + Dnucleus = 38Cl + proton + 3.9 MeV I suspect that the neutron transfer reaction may be more likely than a proton transfer reaction because the proton would have to tunnel against the charge on the Cl nucleus, whereas the neutron has no such problem. An individual Deuterino may also be able to do this. (This may actually explain all neutron stripping reactions). Both 36Cl 38Cl are radioactive. Does anyone know if these have been detected in the residue after an explosion? (All Hydrogen contains a small fraction of deuterium, and 38Cl produces energetic gamma rays). BTW using Boron for the walls of the container would result in the neutron tunneling into the B10 nucleus, safely converting it into B11. Hopefully, in that case the energy is carried away by the remaining proton from the deuterium. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Jones, I assume you accept that E=mc2 and that if the mass of a reaction changes, the energy has to come from somewhere. Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p -0.001839592 which = 1.713569649 MeV has to be added to provide the increased mass of the resulting p. The Farnsworth Fusor is producing hot fusion, which generates energy. The only issue is what amount of energy must be applied to overcome the Coulomb barrier, after which energy is released. That amount to get over the barrier can be a few kev to cause a little hot fusion. In the case of neutron stripping, energy must be ADDED to the system to produce the result. On the other hand, if you assume that the chemical reaction is creating hot fusion in the gas, then you must assume that each D has been given a 10 keV as kinetic energy as a result of the chemical reaction. That is not possible because to make any energy the DCl molecule has to form, which can not have the required kinetic energy simply based on momentum considerations. Ed On Mar 14, 2013, at 4:09 PM, Jones Beene wrote: From: Edmund Storms Jim, why assume the neutron is stripped from the D? This requires 1.7 MeV/event. No it doesn’t - that number is way off - 3 orders of magnitude off. Neutron stripping occurs as low as 10 keV. See Tom Ligon’s IE article. The Farnsworth Fusor is documented proof of large neutron production at keV energy levels. Here is another version of Ligon’s article. One can argue the point of whether this is due to Boltzmann’s tail of the energy distribution or Oppenheimer-Philips stripping, but one must accept that it is far removed from 1.7 MeV/event. http://www.fusor.net/newbie/files/Ligon-QED-IE.pdf Jones
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
I was assuming the phenomenon reported by Jones Beene (without citation) was real. A citation of neutrons being produced by H+Cl =HCl is now in order isn't it? Moreover, endothermic D = H + n plausibly produces cold neutrons whereas fractofusion produces hot neutrons, doesn't it? On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Jim, why assume the neutron is stripped from the D? This requires 1.7 MeV/event. Where does this amount of energy come from? We know that fractofusion occurs when D is present and this produces neutrons. An explosive reaction would certainly create cracks in the container that could cause this version of hot fusion. Ed On Mar 14, 2013, at 3:21 PM, James Bowery wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in that case. Normal water is 0.02% D2O, so can't we expect: 2014101.77812 + 15994914.61957 = 16999131.75650 + 1007825.03223 + 2059.609uamu energy D + O16 = O17 + H + 2059.609uamu energy in appropriately dilute amounts?
RE: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
From: Edmund Storms Jones, I assume you accept that E=mc2 and that if the mass of a reaction changes, the energy has to come from somewhere. Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. stripping) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer's claims to fame. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called warm fusion not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclear reaction is never attained. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Jones do you have a cite for neutrons being produced from an H+Cl system? On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: ** ** ** ** *From:* Edmund Storms ** ** Jones, I assume you accept that E=mc2 and that if the mass of a reaction changes, the energy has to come from somewhere. Here is the mass change ** ** D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 ** ** The gain in mass is D-n= p ** ** ** ** You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. “stripping”) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer’s claims to fame. ** ** In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called “warm fusion” not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclear reaction is never attained. ** ** Jones ** **
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Ed On Mar 14, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Jones Beene wrote: From: Edmund Storms Jones, I assume you accept that E=mc2 and that if the mass of a reaction changes, the energy has to come from somewhere. Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. “stripping”) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer’s claims to fame. OK Jones, then were does the mass come from? No matter what you call the process, the energy MUST be conserved. This reaction requires energy be added to create the mass of the product. Where does this energy come from? In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called “warm fusion” not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclear reaction is never attained. The only issue here is how the barrier is overcome, because once this happens, energy is created by the normal hot fusion reaction, i.e. the combined nucleus fragments into the observed particles which includes neutrons. Why suggest some magic condition like negative energy. The process is very simple. The two D are given enough energy to surmount the barrier. The Fusor simply does this in an efficient way. Ed Jones
RE: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
From: Edmund Storms Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. stripping) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer's claims to fame. OK Jones, then were does the mass come from? No matter what you call the process, the energy MUST be conserved. This reaction requires energy be added to create the mass of the product. Where does this energy come from? Yes, mass-energy is conserved but we are talking about deuterium being converted into something else (tritium or He3)- so there is NOT necessarily a non-conserved mass of anything, since there is always the neutrino wild card. That, essentially, is the crux of your incorrect assumption. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called warm fusion not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclear reaction is never attained. The only issue here is how the barrier is overcome, because once this happens, energy is created by the normal hot fusion reaction, i.e. the combined nucleus fragments into the observed particles which includes neutrons. That is what you seem to be missing in all of this. It is not hot fusion but CoE does apply. In the O-P reaction, the Coulomb barrier is overcome when two deuterons approach each other with the neutron end of each facing the other - i.e. being geometrically ahead of the proton end. The 1.7 MeV barrier is effectively lowered to about 10 keV. Why suggest some magic condition like negative energy. Robert Oppenheimer and Melba Philips suggested this. Who am I, or you, to suggest otherwise? The process is very simple. The two D are given enough energy to surmount the barrier. The Fusor simply does this in an efficient way. No, the Fusor never gets close to doing this at all, without QM. The energy to surmount the barrier is reduced by a similar amount to the deficit in net energy transfer. Once again, we appear to be seeing experts in one field who do not understand the full implications of QM and nuclear tunneling - and refuse to believe that energy on the quantum scale can be borrowed for a few femtoseconds before it is repaid. There is no 1.7 MeV threshold and there is corresponding mass change. In QM tunneling, the energy barrier for fusion is reduced and the excess energy is likewise reduced. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:21 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical
reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is
used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in
that case.
Normal water is 0.02% D2O, so can't we expect:
2014101.77812 + 15994914.61957 = 16999131.75650 + 1007825.03223 +
2059.609uamu energy
D + O16 = O17 + H + 2059.609uamu energy
in appropriately dilute amounts?
Still awaiting the cite from Jones about H+Cl = HCl producing neutrons.
Meanwhile, here's a wrap-up of the arithmetic for this explanation for the
Papp engine's energy source
Starting with the energy of a molar reaction:
(6.0221415e+23*2059.609udalton*c^2)?J
(6.0221415E23 * [2059.609 * {micro*dalton}]) * (speed_of_light^2) ? joule
= 1.8510799E11 J
Now we take 100hp as the Papp engine output and as how moles per hour of
deuterium it would consume:
(6.0221415e+23*2059.609udalton*c^2)/mole;100hp?mole/hour
([{6.0221415E23 * (2059.609 * [micro*dalton])} * {speed_of_light^2}] /
mole)^-1* (100 * horsepower) ? mole / hour
= 0.0014502439 mole/hour
We take that and convert that to grams of deuterium:
0.0014502439 mole;2g/mole?g
(0.0014502439 * mole) * ([2 * gramm] / mole) ? gramm
= 0.0029004878 g
And since we know that deuterium is 0.0156% of hydrogen and hydrogen is 1/8
the mass of water we can ask how much water per hour is consumed per hour
by the Papp engine running at 100hp:
8*0.0029004878 g/0.000156;1kg/l?l
([8 * {0.0029004878 * gramm}] / 0.000156) * ([1 * {kilo*gramm}] / liter)^-1
? liter
= 0.14874296 l
or about a half cup of water per hour.
Of course, the power level would decrease as the deuterium is burned up and
is therefore more dilute.
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
On Mar 14, 2013, at 7:05 PM, Jones Beene wrote: From: Edmund Storms Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. “stripping”) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer’s claims to fame. OK Jones, then were does the mass come from? No matter what you call the process, the energy MUST be conserved. This reaction requires energy be added to create the mass of the product. Where does this energy come from? Yes, mass-energy is conserved but we are talking about deuterium being converted into something else (tritium or He3)– so there is NOT necessarily a non-conserved mass of anything, since there is always the neutrino “wild card”. That, essentially, is the crux of your incorrect assumption. I'm making no assumption. I'm simply applying conservation of energy. If instead of the D= n +P reaction, you propose the normal hot fusion reaction, then of course the situation changes. When two D come together with enough energy, the nuclei combine and then explodes into tritium + p and He3 + n. This is the normal hot fusion reaction that generates energy. That is not a neutron stripping reaction. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called “warm fusion” not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclear reaction is never attained. The only issue here is how the barrier is overcome, because once this happens, energy is created by the normal hot fusion reaction, i.e. the combined nucleus fragments into the observed particles which includes neutrons. That is what you seem to be missing in all of this. It is not hot fusion but CoE does apply. In the O-P reaction, the Coulomb barrier is overcome when two deuterons approach each other with the neutron end of each facing the other – i.e. being geometrically ahead of the proton end. The 1.7 MeV barrier is effectively lowered to about 10 keV. Yes, the barrier is lowered and the expected fusion reaction occurs. That was not the original subject. Why suggest some magic condition like negative energy. Robert Oppenheimer and Melba Philips suggested this. Who am I, or you, to suggest otherwise? The process is very simple. The two D are given enough energy to surmount the barrier. The Fusor simply does this in an efficient way. No, the Fusor never gets close to doing this at all, without QM. The energy to surmount the barrier is reduced by a similar amount to the deficit in net energy transfer. Once again, we appear to be seeing experts in one field who do not understand the full implications of QM and nuclear tunneling - and refuse to believe that energy on the quantum scale can be “borrowed” for a few femtoseconds before it is repaid. I know about tunneling. It is simply a way of saying that the expected barrier is lowered by some process. You can describe the process using QM if you want. Or you can propose that the orientation of the two d is important or, if the d are in a material, the electron concentration is important. Or you can imagine borrowed energy. These are all assumptions used to explain what is observed. It has nothing to do with the initial subject. Ed There is no 1.7 MeV threshold and there is corresponding mass change. In QM tunneling, the energy barrier for fusion is reduced and the excess energy is likewise reduced. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:31:19 -0600: Hi Ed, [snip] Jones, I assume you accept that E=mc2 and that if the mass of a reaction changes, the energy has to come from somewhere. Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p -0.001839592 which = 1.713569649 MeV has to be added to provide the increased mass of the resulting p. You have used the mass of a bare proton and neutron, but the atomic mass of D (i.e. including the electron). The actual reaction energy is therefore .511 MeV larger, (since really only a D nucleus is produced, not atomic D), i.e. 1.7 + 0.5 = 2.2 MeV. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
There are obvious reasons why you will have to present a need to know for this information. You can start your search with the inventor of the Mark 1 and 2 triggers, referred to here. http://pubs.acs.org/cen/priestley/recipients/1972kistiakowsky.html From: James Bowery Still awaiting the cite from Jones about H+Cl = HCl producing neutrons.
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:47:50 -0700: Hi, You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. stripping) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer's claims to fame. To be fair Jones, you were not exactly clear in your original post. The bottom line is that stripping can only happen when one half or the other of the D nucleus is absorbed by the target nucleus. Part of the energy liberated by the absorption (usually around 3-8 MeV) is used to pry apart the original D nucleus. It could also be seen as absorption of the entire D nucleus, followed by emission of either a proton or a neutron, though I doubt that's the way it works. More likely that the neutron migrates to the target nucleus (most of the time), and at least part of the energy liberated by this event is carried away by the now lone proton. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. One would expect there to be 2.2 MeV less energy than from the absorption of a bare neutron, since 2.2 MeV is required to break apart the D nucleus. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Jones, Are you saying that there are two reactions taking place in this situation where the final product results in the release of energy? I agree with Ed if the end products are a neutron and proton that are now unconnected. Perhaps it is possible to borrow energy for a short period of time with a quantum tunneling effect, but it must be repaid soon afterwards. Please explain when that happens. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Mar 14, 2013 9:06 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine? From:Edmund Storms Here is themass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain inmass is D-n= p You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e.“stripping”) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - ineffect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer’sclaims to fame. OK Jones, then were does the mass come from? Nomatter what you call the process, the energy MUST be conserved. Thisreaction requires energy be added to create the mass of the product. Where doesthis energy come from? Yes, mass-energy isconserved but we are talking about deuterium being converted into somethingelse (tritium or He3)– so there is NOT necessarily a non-conserved massof anything, since there is always the neutrino “wild card”. That, essentially,is the crux of your incorrect assumption. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state asif it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far lessmass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called“warm fusion” not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclearreaction is never attained. The only issue here is how the barrier is overcome,because once this happens, energy is created by the normal hot fusion reaction,i.e. the combined nucleus fragments into the observed particles which includesneutrons. That is what you seem tobe missing in all of this. It is not hot fusion but CoE does apply. In the O-Preaction, the Coulomb barrier is overcome when two deuterons approach eachother with the neutron end of each facing the other – i.e. being geometricallyahead of the proton end. The 1.7 MeV barrier is effectively lowered to about 10keV. Why suggest some magic condition like negative energy. Robert Oppenheimer andMelba Philips suggested this. Who am I, or you, to suggest otherwise? The process is very simple. The two D are given enoughenergy to surmount the barrier. The Fusor simply does this in an efficient way. No, the Fusor never getsclose to doing this at all, without QM. The energy to surmount the barrier isreduced by a similar amount to the deficit in net energy transfer. Once again, we appear tobe seeing experts in one field who do not understand the full implications ofQM and nuclear tunneling - and refuse to believe that energy on the quantumscale can be “borrowed” for a few femtoseconds before it is repaid. There is no 1.7 MeVthreshold and there is corresponding mass change. In QM tunneling, the energybarrier for fusion is reduced and the excess energy is likewise reduced. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Peswiki : Yildiz / Turkish Magnetic Motor 30-day University Test
At 12:49 PM 3/14/2013, you wrote: Indeed, this is so incredibly naive of a modern academic institution that, otherwise, is engaged in rational empiricism, that it is probable that Yildiz is substantively misrepresenting the interaction, which throws the entirety of Yildiz's claims into additional suspicion. I don't think so he WAS going to set up a 3-day demo in a hotel room, then the University guy (I forget his name ... he wrote a paper on it) said no, let's do a 30-day trial in a magnetically shielded room. Now he's back to a public demo.
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Robin, Why is the energy required to break apart the D 2.2 MeV? Ed calculated 1.7 MeV by calculating the mass difference which seemed correct. I would assume that there is no charge change taking place which involves an electron since the same number of protons are present in both the initial and final products. Could you explain your reasoning? Dave -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Mar 14, 2013 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine? In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:47:50 -0700: Hi, You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. stripping) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer's claims to fame. To be fair Jones, you were not exactly clear in your original post. The bottom line is that stripping can only happen when one half or the other of the D nucleus is absorbed by the target nucleus. Part of the energy liberated by the absorption (usually around 3-8 MeV) is used to pry apart the original D nucleus. It could also be seen as absorption of the entire D nucleus, followed by emission of either a proton or a neutron, though I doubt that's the way it works. More likely that the neutron migrates to the target nucleus (most of the time), and at least part of the energy liberated by this event is carried away by the now lone proton. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. One would expect there to be 2.2 MeV less energy than from the absorption of a bare neutron, since 2.2 MeV is required to break apart the D nucleus. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:38:22 -0600: Hi, [snip] I'm making no assumption. I'm simply applying conservation of energy. If instead of the D= n +P reaction, you propose the normal hot fusion reaction, then of course the situation changes. When two D come together with enough energy, the nuclei combine and then explodes into tritium + p and He3 + n. This is the normal hot fusion reaction that generates energy. That is not a neutron stripping reaction. Actually, the hot fusion reaction you propose here probably never happens in reality, except perhaps in particle accelerators. Far more likely is that all real life fusion reactions are stripping reactions, i.e. D + D = T + p (where a neutron migrates from one D nucleus to the other leaving a proton behind), or D + D = He3 + n (where a proton migrates to the other D, leaving a neutron behind). Perhaps coincidentally, the concept of nuclear shielding of the ZPF that I mentioned previously, may help to explain this. As two nuclei get closer together, they start to shield one another. The shielding from a large nucleus would be greater than that from a small nucleus. When a D approaches another nucleus, the neutron is shielded on one side by a large nucleus, and on the other side by a mere proton, so at some approach distance, the shielding from the larger nucleus will exceed that from the proton, and the neutron will pushed toward the larger nucleus. The proton would too, but is repelled by the electric charge on the larger nucleus, hence gets pushed away. [snip] That is what you seem to be missing in all of this. It is not hot fusion but CoE does apply. In the O-P reaction, the Coulomb barrier is overcome when two deuterons approach each other with the neutron end of each facing the other i.e. being geometrically ahead of the proton end. The 1.7 MeV barrier is effectively lowered to about 10 keV. Actually the barrier has nothing to do with the binding energy of the D nucleus. It is purely electrostatic repulsion, hence the use of 1.7 MeV barrier is a result of confusion across posts. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
In reply to David Roberson's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:20:35 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Robin, Why is the energy required to break apart the D 2.2 MeV? Ed calculated 1.7 MeV by calculating the mass difference which seemed correct. I would assume that there is no charge change taking place which involves an electron since the same number of protons are present in both the initial and final products. Could you explain your reasoning? Please see my earlier post, where Ed's calculation is corrected. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
In reply to James Bowery's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:26:49 -0500: Hi, [snip] I was assuming the phenomenon reported by Jones Beene (without citation) was real. A citation of neutrons being produced by H+Cl =HCl is now in order isn't it? Moreover, endothermic D = H + n plausibly produces cold neutrons whereas fractofusion produces hot neutrons, doesn't it? I don't think even Jones suggested D = H + n. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Ah, I see what you refer to now. This calculation is also the famous one associated with the PF gamma ray energy error that caused them so much difficulty. Dave -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Mar 14, 2013 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine? In reply to David Roberson's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:20:35 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Robin, Why is the energy required to break apart the D 2.2 MeV? Ed calculated 1.7 MeV by calculating the mass difference which seemed correct. I would assume that there is no charge change taking place which involves an electron since the same number of protons are present in both the initial and final products. Could you explain your reasoning? Please see my earlier post, where Ed's calculation is corrected. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
My only need to know is so that I can decide whether there is a chemical source of cold neutrons and thereby take seriously the arithmetic I have shown. If so, it _does_ explain a plausible source of energy for the Papp engine. On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: There are obvious reasons why you will have to present a “need to know” for this information. ** ** You can start your search with the inventor of the Mark 1 and 2 triggers, referred to here. ** ** http://pubs.acs.org/cen/priestley/recipients/1972kistiakowsky.html ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* James Bowery Still awaiting the cite from Jones about H+Cl = HCl producing neutrons.
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Robin, according to my tables, the mass of a bare d is 2.014101778, which is the value I used. I don't know where you got the idea an electron is involved. These are nuclear reactions. Ed On Mar 14, 2013, at 9:27 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to David Roberson's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:20:35 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Robin, Why is the energy required to break apart the D 2.2 MeV? Ed calculated 1.7 MeV by calculating the mass difference which seemed correct. I would assume that there is no charge change taking place which involves an electron since the same number of protons are present in both the initial and final products. Could you explain your reasoning? Please see my earlier post, where Ed's calculation is corrected. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: That is what you seem to be missing in all of this. It is not hot fusion but CoE does apply. In the O-P reaction, the Coulomb barrier is overcome when two deuterons approach each other with the neutron end of each facing the other – i.e. being geometrically ahead of the proton end. The 1.7 MeV barrier is effectively lowered to about 10 keV. I wonder how this affects Ron Maimon's proposal -- as the two deuterons approach the palladium nucleus and reach the classical turning point, the proton ends would be oriented both away from the positively charged palladium nucleus and away from the other deuterium nucleus. The neutrons would be right in the middle of it all. Eric
RE: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
Dave, If we are talking about the Farnsworth Fusor, which is the way the thread evolved, then the Fusor is fueled with the same deuterium as palladium cold fusion but NO helium-4 is seen. The reaction is going to either Helium-3 and a 2.4 MeV neutron or Tritium and a fast proton. Both of those secondary nuclei will further react. There is a different branching ratio than hot fusion and there are few gammas– another sign that this is not hot fusion. The 2.4 MeV neutron is characteristic of hot fusion. In O-P, which is accurate for a fraction of the Fusor’s reactions, the lowered threshold translates into less net energy than hot fusion since the stripped neutron acts as if has negative kinetic energy (according to O-P not me). Most of that faction of fusion goes to an emitted proton. Some of the neutrons which are seen from Fusors are believed to be spallation neutrons from the fast proton interacting with the tungsten of the cathode and some are the characteristic 2.4 MeV neutrons from the He-3 reaction. In any event, the plasma remains “warm” and too cool to emit gammas, so it cannot be typical hot fusion but more like a hybrid. Even a neon transformer provides sufficient voltage. In QM tunneling, energy can be “borrowed” to accomplish fusion and immediately repaid to balance the books. This should not be in dispute. Unfortunately, QM reactions are low in probability and the Fusor is almost impossible to scale up to breakeven. That is the tradeoff. We will not solve the energy dilemma with a Fusor unless dozens are used as a neutron source for subcritical fission – which has been proposed. From: David Roberson Jones, Are you saying that there are two reactions taking place in this situation where the final product results in the release of energy? I agree with Ed if the end products are a neutron and proton that are now unconnected. Perhaps it is possible to borrow energy for a short period of time with a quantum tunneling effect, but it must be repaid soon afterwards. Please explain when that happens. Dave From: Edmund Storms Here is the mass change D = 2.014101778 H= 1.00727647 n= 1.0086649 The gain in mass is D-n= p You are making an incorrect assumption. The O-P effect (i.e. “stripping”) is not thermonuclear, it is quantum mechanical - in effect a tunneling reaction. Quantum tunneling is one of Oppenheimer’s claims to fame. OK Jones, then were does the mass come from? No matter what you call the process, the energy MUST be conserved. This reaction requires energy be added to create the mass of the product. Where does this energy come from? Yes, mass-energy is conserved but we are talking about deuterium being converted into something else (tritium or He3)– so there is NOT necessarily a non-conserved mass of anything, since there is always the neutrino “wild card”. That, essentially, is the crux of your incorrect assumption. In the Fusor, the transmuted nucleus is left in an energy state as if it had fused with a neutron of negative kinetic energy, so there far less mass change than the thermonuclear reaction. The Fusor can be called “warm fusion” not hot, since the threshold energy for thermonuclear reaction is never attained. The only issue here is how the barrier is overcome, because once this happens, energy is created by the normal hot fusion reaction, i.e. the combined nucleus fragments into the observed particles which includes neutrons. That is what you seem to be missing in all of this. It is not hot fusion but CoE does apply. In the O-P reaction, the Coulomb barrier is overcome when two deuterons approach each other with the neutron end of each facing the other – i.e. being geometrically ahead of the proton end. The 1.7 MeV barrier is effectively lowered to about 10 keV. Why suggest some magic condition like negative energy. Robert Oppenheimer and Melba Philips suggested this. Who am I, or you, to suggest otherwise? The process is very simple. The two D are given enough energy to surmount the barrier. The Fusor simply does this in an efficient way. No, the Fusor never gets close to doing this at all, without QM. The energy to surmount the barrier is reduced by a similar amount to the deficit in net energy transfer. Once again, we appear to be seeing experts in one field who do not understand the full implications of QM and nuclear tunneling - and refuse to believe that energy on the quantum scale can be “borrowed” for a few femtoseconds before it is repaid. There is no 1.7 MeV threshold and there is corresponding mass change. In QM tunneling, the energy barrier for fusion is reduced and the excess energy is likewise reduced. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Dilute D2O Cold Neutron Capture In Papp Engine?
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:29 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to James Bowery's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:26:49 -0500: Hi, [snip] I was assuming the phenomenon reported by Jones Beene (without citation) was real. A citation of neutrons being produced by H+Cl =HCl is now in order isn't it? Moreover, endothermic D = H + n plausibly produces cold neutrons whereas fractofusion produces hot neutrons, doesn't it? I don't think even Jones suggested D = H + n. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html His words: Neutrons are 'stripped' from the deuterium
