Dear Vance,
you have the official and easiest explanation for the
holocaust (you're missing a few important elements, I would recommend you
some serious historians rather than Hollywood movies), and I insist:
according to serious researchers, Judaism is not a race. But do not
rofl
-Original Message-
From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:11 PM
To: Vance Wood; lute list
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Sorry Roman again you are wrong, Bonsai is not an ethnic group within a
group
to wish to convey.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Vance,
you
Vance said:
I never said Judaism was a race, you had better read the string
again, Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people in general
and
various others that choose to accept it.
This is not what you've said, but doesn't matter.
I was a fool by getting into this particular thing
At 06:28 AM 12/11/2003 -0800, C Etter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you are wrong when you say that For the most part, not only they
[classical guitarists] cannot read tablature.
My experience as a classical guitarist is that nearly all of the other
classical guitarist whom I have ever
of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Christian is not a race or family of people, Jewish is, though it is
possible to convert to Judaism doing so does not make you genetically a
person of Jewish back ground, that is what the holocaust was all about
if
you forget your history. MT
PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance,
if you know very well that doesn't really matter what's the religion, race
or political filiation of the family of Mr Thames (or any other member
I AM NOT THE ONE WHO KEEPS ASKING ME THE QUESTIONS. I don't care if MT is a
Druid. However he used the term Jewish after the discussion where he used
the term Nazi. He tossed out the Jewish family ties as a defense to his
calling MO a Nazi, in much the same way a racist, in defense of his
Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
JEWISH IS A RACE, Judaism is a religion. I am dumb struck that you do not
understand that.
During the Holocaust The Jews were persecuted because of their race not
their religion.
That's pretty much how Goebbels put it. More objective observers
: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
JEWISH IS A RACE, Judaism is a religion. I am dumb struck that you do
not
understand that.
During the Holocaust The Jews were persecuted because of their race not
their religion.
That's pretty much how
Sorry Roman again you are wrong, Bonsai is not an ethnic group within a
group of trees, Bonsai is a method where by any tree from any back ground
can be grown as a bonsai. Bonsai means tree in a pot, loosely translated.
I have been growing bonsai for nearly fifty years and some of that as a
As far as the Third Riche was
concerned religion or philosophy had nothing to do with how The Jews were
dealt with.
So Nouveau Riche must be the Forth Reich...
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
No, he tossed it out openly, if it is true why should he be ashamed of the
circumstances.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED
It doesn't make any difference, I wouldn't worry about that.
How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to
choosing the Jewish faith of her husband?
Roman,
A few thoughts...
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
Well, well, well.. This means that the life on the lute list will
finally
, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
My brother is Christian, but I'm not... what's so strange about that? :)
Vance Wood wrote:
How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to
choosing the Jewish faith of her husband?
Vance Wood
At 22:19 09-12-2003 -0800, Howard Posner wrote:
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
the fact remains that within 19 years after the appearance of
the Perrine book, Campion stated that the lute was done for. That is a
fairly powerful statement
The translated excerpt in your article says
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We have no way of knowing what would have happened if 18th century
lutenists had paid heed to Perinne and Campion. But we do know that today,
this same failed system of the 18th century
The press of deadlines compels me to retire from this discussion.
Arne Keller at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am uncertain as to the significance of this year.
It was the year of the Campion remark that Matanya cited.
Howard Posner
The press of deadlines compels me to retire from this discussion.
Besides, I have a sneaking hunch that nobody besides the two of us is
reading. So I'll just make a few general remarks.
I am reading it and I am sure others are interested too.
Christian is not a race or family of people, Jewish is, though it is
possible to convert to Judaism doing so does not make you genetically a
person of Jewish back ground, that is what the holocaust was all about if
you forget your history. MT made the statement, and tossed it out on the
They have to listen to this neo
nazi bastard all the time,
You are going much too far.
I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience.
Bernd, take it from an MO expert, what he has is not patience. He
actually seems to derive pleasure from ill-will he causes.
Quite often I have the impression
Howar Posner scripsit:
I couldn't sleep at night if I took your money on a sucker bet like that.
Were I a gambling man (I'm not), I might take bets on whether there are more
professional lutenists in London now than there were in the entire world
forty years ago.
Probably true, if your
You'll note that you and I are focusing on two different things: you on the
players of solo music, and I on their place in the larger musical world.
And we must note that in chamber music we greatly outdone guitarists, who
are often accused of being unable to play with other musicians (notably
Dear Roman:
I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as
you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish
back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are
totally off base. I can think of no four letter word,
Howard,
*
BTW, what is a roach assumption? Is this a characterization of
methodology, or of substances that affected your sobriety in making it? Or
some rule of thumb about the visibility of actual visible cockroaches to
hidden ones?
*
Roman gives, in another message, an estimate of 4 to 1 for
Well said Tim,
But you don't need police statistics to note the full moon phenomenon, just
ask any bartender or lycanthrope.
Best, Jon
availability of facsimiles of lute tablatures will be useful in
proselytizing the lute. The problem, taken from the point of view of the
idea of increasing the size of the lute world, the subject line of this
thread, is not what lute players do or can do, but what is the situation
among those who
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Roman:
I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles
You'll note that you and I are focusing on two different things: you on the
players of solo music, and I on their place in the larger musical world.
Perhaps the difference is in seeing the lute world as essentially a subset
of the guitar world or as a subset of the early music world.
The
At 12:32 PM 12/9/2003 -0800, Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
May be you are right. May be I should have been more specific and say that
these comments were an indication of a general feelings
[sic] of malaise regarding tablature in France at
Dear Roman, hello all,
They have to listen to this neo
nazi bastard all the time,
You are going much too far.
I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience.
Bernd, take it from an MO expert, what he has is not patience. He
actually seems to derive pleasure from ill-will he causes.
Quite often I
Dear Vance,
regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument)
to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also
exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context
the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning.
I
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So, with the addition of the Milleran quote furnished by Fred, we now have
three commentaries by French musicians about the dangers of tablature to
the general musicianship of the player.
It could be said, and I would not be able to argue against
: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed
towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was
delivered
this is obvious. But those who choose to make
09, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance wrote,
conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the
tag
Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not
to
stoop to that level
MT wrote,
Vance
At 04:25 PM 12/9/2003 -0800, Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Accepting such a view would require us to
discard about 90% of what we have come to regard as the basic tenets of HIP
performance.
No, because a consensus, or a majority, or an institution, or a societal
norm, or accepted
Thames
Luthier
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Michael:
Your
Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to
choosing
here is one picture you may not have seen before:
http://www.orphee.com/lute/lute-player.jpg
I cna just imagine the sort of conclusions that can be made of it.
I love it! Left handed no less. The picture is not reversed because
the music is the right way. I can just imagine the artist telling
In a message dated 12/9/03 11:26:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I love it! Left handed no less. The picture is not reversed because
the music is the right way. I can just imagine the artist telling the
model how to place his fingers. It may take me a while to
At 01:24 PM 12/10/2003 +0900, Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
here is one picture you may not have seen before:
http://www.orphee.com/lute/lute-player.jpg
I cna just imagine the sort of conclusions that can be made of it.
I love it! Left handed no less. The picture is not reversed
Doc and Roman,
I haven't seen the original, and am not going to search for it as Lute List
stuff comes to me in two places (a note to all on that at the end of this).
But reading the two comments it would seem that there is a semantic problem.
The Western world spent years settling on a set of
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The real value of this painting is of course the music, if anyone can
identify it. Now let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is the
only drawing in existence showing a lute player playing. It would be a
smashing proof that lute player
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
the fact remains that within 19 years after the appearance of
the Perrine book, Campion stated that the lute was done for. That is a
fairly powerful statement
The translated excerpt in your article says the lute has declined (or is in
decline, or is
, 2003 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Matanya,
Please address this issue privately with RT.
Thanks
On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 03:57 PM, Matanya Ophee wrote:
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Then MO
Matanya,
You are quite right that the issues of publishers, socialists and rip offs
are public matters. But one does have to define the nature of a public
forum. A list server (listserv in old computer speak) is a community of
people with a common interest, and when particular interests within
Roman Turovsky at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The funny thing is that old postings in those flame wars are nowhere as
interesting as they seemed at the time..
I'm afraid they weren't as interesting as all that at the time, Roman.
What's interesting (or, for that matter, persuasive) to the
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The lute has never been like any of the other instrument. It was always on
the outside looking in, and as the Sieur Perrine noted in 1697, it will
always continue to be there, as long as lutenists insist on a notational
system that is not shared by
In a message dated 12/6/2003 5:55:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As someone who has listened to and enjoyed lute music for over 20 years
(and been playing for 4
months) it continues to surprise me how many people have never heard of
the instrument or know its
sound
The funny thing is that old postings in those flame wars are nowhere as
interesting as they seemed at the time..
I'm afraid they weren't as interesting as all that at the time, Roman.
What's interesting (or, for that matter, persuasive) to the writer in the
heat of combat is a far cry
, December 08, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The lute has never been like any of the other instrument. It was always
on
the outside looking in, and as the Sieur Perrine noted in 1697, it will
always continue to be there, as long
They have to listen to this neo
nazi bastard all the time,
You are going much too far.
Please read your statements carefully before you send
them to the world.
I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience.
B.H.
Bernd, take it from an MO expert, what he has is not patience. He
actually seems to
will be useful in
proselytizing the lute. The problem, taken from the point of view of the
idea of increasing the size of the lute world, the subject line of this
thread, is not what lute players do or can do, but what is the situation
among those who are not yet lute players.
The fact of the matter
They have to listen to this neo
nazi bastard all the time,
You are going much too far.
Please read your statements carefully before you send
them to the world.
I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience.
B.H.
Also:
Bernd,
In the States word nazi is now divorced from its original meaning and is
MO wrote:
You have to acquaint them with the music first. If they catch
the bug, they
would eventually graduate to the lute itself and learn to
read tablature.
Happened to most people here already this way, and it will
happen again. It
is not going to happen by posting facsimiles of
I am going to take a risk. There have been comments among us about specific
religious associatians. And specifically a comment that M.O. insulted
Sephardim. Well then, is M.O. an Ashkenazi conducting an internal
confrontation? He says he has Sephardic family, but who knows what that is.
Bear
Music is music, and that is our topic. Some of the finest music written has
been for one god or another, the particular choice doesn't change the music.
I could write a piece honoring the seventh avenue subway, and if it were a
good piece with lasting musical value it might last an eternity -
So any music not rooted in Christian semantics (like MacOSX rooted in
Unix)
is doomed to being not quite that memorable (see Pagan, Islamic, Judaic
etc., and don't hold you breath for a Ramadan oratorio).
I find this very strange, Roman - in fact I don't find it true at all.
Perhaps it is
Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group
that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as
friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed
to a group, boasting interest
As a complete newbie, I've been a bit puzzled by some of the invective, but
then I make a habit of occasionally contributing to the BBC 'Great Debate',
just for the fun of it, and what goes on here, what little I've read of it,
appears harmless in comparison. By and large, the lute list seems a
the quality and the value of the information given.
Mike Wilson
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go
At 8:27 PM -0800 12/6/03, Vance Wood wrote:
As a whole I have never been exposed
to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is
more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism.
Period attitudes for a period instrument? It sounds like 16th
Wood.
- Original Message -
From: Ed Margerum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
At 8:27 PM -0800 12/6/03, Vance Wood wrote:
As a whole I have never been exposed
to a group, boasting interest
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in
the
ongoing
battle between the
greedy billionaire lute publishers
Timothy Motz wrote:
I have noticed that there is an ebb and flow to the flame wars that
coincides with the full moon. We are just reaching a full moon right
now
Should we consider RT, MO, MT and all the fighting gang on this list
belonging to the family of lycanthropes?!? WOW!!! Till
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Size of the
lute world
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in
the
ongoing
battle between the
greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist
That's my point, the Lute community is too small as it is, why should we, by
our behavior, keep it small or make it smaller? It seems to me that if
there were more people interested in playing the Lute that there would be
more business (bad word to some and I apologize) for Luthiers,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 1:40 PM
Subject: Size of the lute world, deja vu all over again
After posting my response last night to Vance Wood's junk yard dogs/band
of
brigands message, I checked the archive this morning and realized that he
and I had pretty much the same
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The truce more or less lasted until Doug Smith's campaign against
Sautscheck.
Thank you for confirming the reason and the rationale for your anti-MO
abusive demagoguery.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that
Interesting perception. Me insulting Sephardim. My brother in law is a
Sephardi, my son in law is a Sephardi and my four grand children are
Sephardi. So
At 02:45 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look,--- if some things like this do not get commercialized to some degree
no one would be able to get strings because no one would make them for
free,
and music would only be available to those near enough to a library
Well, well, well.. This means that the life on the lute list
will
finally attain the liveliness it deserves, it will be a true
microcosm.
Boulez bashing is one of my favorite things to do. We also have a
Morton
Feldman acolyte on the list, but he hasn't been heard from in
months.
RT
Za mir y druzhbu. :-)
Stewart McCoy.
RT (who is diligently working to fill 13-lute with
Shostakovich's
spirit)
Vodka? :-)
Stewart McCoy.
Unlike Boulez and Feldman he was a man of sobiety.
I, on the other hand, am about to pour myself a shot of 16 year
old
Lagavullin.
RT
PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in
the
ongoing
battle between the
greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist
proletariat
struggling
Matanya,
Please address this issue privately with RT.
Thanks
On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 03:57 PM, Matanya Ophee wrote:
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that
Interesting
3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
At 02:45 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look,--- if some things like this do not get commercialized to some
degree
no one would be able to get strings because no one would make them for
free,
and music would only
At 05:28 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Matanya,
Please address this issue privately with RT.
I am sorry, but the issue of publishers being ripped off by socialist do
gooders is not a personal matter. It is a public issue, and as a publisher
yourself it should concern you too. If you do not
: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Size of the lute world
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the
ongoing
battle between the
greedy billionaire
Thames
Luthier
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames
- Original Message -
From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 05:28 PM 12/7/2003
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle
between the
greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to
free the
world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide.
Is this a
Hi!
I don't know about the amount of lute players or enthusiasts. Nice to
hear that you are willing to support the lute scene by buying editions
and CDs - please visit as much concerts as possible, too!
Actually that's what I would like people to do: attending concerts and
supporting artist
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing
battle between the
greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat
struggling to free the
world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players
worldwide. Is this a
Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group
that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as
friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed
to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor,
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