New mod_perl Logo

As many of you are aware, a new mod_perl website is currently being developed and is near to going live. To accompany the new site, and with mod_perl 2.0 development well under way, I have initiated a competition to find a new mod_perl logo. Therefore, I am asking any budding artists/designers

Re: New mod_perl Logo

> exisiting icons of mod_perl (the camel, Apache feather, eagle, etc), or Please let's not choose one with an ORA animal as the official logo. It's very annoying having to include those stupid copyright notices just because the logo is used on a page. And since I've now posted to the list anyway

Re: New mod_perl Logo

On Tuesday 29 January 2002 19:10, Markus Wichitill wrote: > > exisiting icons of mod_perl (the camel, Apache feather, eagle, etc), or > > Please let's not choose one with an ORA animal as the official logo. It's > very annoying having to include those stupid copyright notices just because > the lo

RE: New mod_perl Logo

:: Please let's not choose one with an ORA animal as the :: official logo. It's very annoying having to include those :: stupid copyright notices just because the logo is used on a page. The final logo will be chosen by majority vote. :: And since I've now posted to the list anyway, I can as w

Re: New mod_perl Logo

> Note that that makes the only "forbidden" animal a "white-tailed eagle" I > guess. Any other animal should be ok. The context is Apache and Perl, so wouldn't that include eagle, camel, llama and whatever other book animals I've missed?

Re: New mod_perl Logo

> > exisiting icons of mod_perl (the camel, Apache feather, eagle, etc), or > > Please let's not choose one with an ORA animal as the official logo. It's Well, seeing as this would be the new version of mod_perl, I could see it being worth ORA's while to forgo their little copyright nonsense. I'

Re: New mod_perl Logo

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Michael A Nachbaur wrote: > Well, seeing as this would be the new version of mod_perl, I could see it > being worth ORA's while to forgo their little copyright nonsense. I'm sure, > if a really nice design comes up with the mod_perl eagle, that ORA wouldn't > mind bending th

Re: New mod_perl Logo

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome. Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present. "mod_perl" is a lousy name. There, I've sai

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Hi there, On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Chris Thompson wrote: > "mod_perl" is a lousy name. [snip] > mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy. How about "BigFoot"? 73, Ged.

Re: New mod_perl Logo

I could not agree more. I can not compute how much of my time would have been saved over the last few years had I been able to say something like 'We are using the Orwellian AppSphere 2002 running on Apache' to VC's and management rather then 'Mod Perl'. Perception counts I am affecti

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Hi ct ! On Wednesday 30 January 2002 01:29, Chris Thompson wrote: > Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's > bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present. > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name. > > There, I've said it. This discussion has occured already

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Thanks for sharing your opinion and it has brought up some of my own that I had held in reserve for sometime now. I would 100% agree with a claim that a name is effecting usage if we were selling a food product or something else to the general public, but even then far more products have failed b

Re: New mod_perl Logo

In a message dated 30-Jan-02 12:50:50 AM GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about "BigFoot"? Probably not the best for a server application. Might make one think of the "footprint" involved ... and isn't one of the major reasons to moving to mod_perl to reduce the overhead and "fo

Re: New mod_perl Logo

I agree. mod_perl is a technology not a platform. Java is called Java, Servlets are called Servlets, but products on top of the technology (eg app servers) are usually have the name "Orwellian Pearlz Factory". If you wanted to use a marketing name, you should have just told them you were using

Re: New mod_perl Logo

January 29, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > > Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome. > > Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that'

Re: New mod_perl Logo

] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:48 PM Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo In a message dated 30-Jan-02 12:50:50 AM GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about "BigFoot"? Probably not the best for a server a

Re: New mod_perl Logo

At 07:29 PM 01/29/02 -0500, Chris Thompson wrote: >Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's >bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present. > >"mod_perl" is a lousy name. I don't know about "lousy", but I do agree. I brought this up on the docs-dev

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Ged Haywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hi there, > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Chris Thompson wrote: > > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name. > [snip] > > mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy. > > How about "BigFoot"? Sasquatch. -- Dave Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire h

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Hi all, On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > How about "BigFoot"? > > > > Probably not the best for a server application. Might make one think of the > "footprint" involved ... That was one of my points. :) There will be fame although possibly not fortune for the first person to

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Hi Ron, On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Ron Savage wrote: > In a message dated 30-Jan-02 12:50:50 AM GMT Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > How about "BigFoot"? > > All these American-style names are verging on the racist. > This is world-wide code, not s/$Expletive// American-wide code.

Re: New mod_perl Logo

I respectfully request that people quit bitching about the name. The name describes exactly what mod_perl is, and is widely known despite what some HTML-jockeys at a conference might say. I can't believe it's any worse than dumb-ass names like "Java Servlets" and "Enterprise Java Beans" (a name

Re: New mod_perl Logo

In a message dated 30-Jan-02 6:08:29 AM GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All these American-style names are verging on the racist. This is world-wide code, not f---ing American-wide code. Don't let the crappy AOL account fool you. Nessie is about 3 hours from here. The Yetti I b

Re: New mod_perl Logo

At 4:54 PM -0500 1/30/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >In a message dated 30-Jan-02 6:08:29 AM GMT Standard Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >>All these American-style names are verging on the racist. >> >>This is world-wide code, not f---ing American-wide code. >> > > >Don't let the crappy AOL ac

RE: New mod_perl Logo

I looked at some of the candidates at http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/ must confess I am partial to http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/logos/louise_bramald_1.jpg so far Thinking camels for Perl and feathers for Apache putting them together all I could see is "flying camels" - is that t

Re: New mod_perl Logo

> > "mod_perl" is a lousy name. It is causing me a problem. My potential customers have heard of Perl and Apache, MySql and Postgres, but they dot like the idea of perl modifying the Apache processing. It strikes them as tinkering round with the internals and liable to cause problems 'when we u

Re: New mod_perl Logo

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Paul Cotter wrote: > Give it some other marketting name, even if it keeps its > original name in places like this. didn't you people read perrin's message? do you think this is the first time this topic has been discussed? do you think it's gonna change doug's mind /this/ t

Re: New mod_perl Logo

Jay Lawrence wrote: >I looked at some of the candidates at >http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/ >must confess I am partial to >http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/logos/louise_bramald_1.jpg so far > >Thinking camels for Perl and feathers for Apache putting them together all I >could see is

Re: New mod_perl Logo

How could another name look nice on your resume if they don't know what it is ? Why don't you just "nickname" mod_perl as something else and then put THAT name on your resume if you are so concerned about naming. At 09:36 PM 1/30/2002, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name. > >I

Re: New mod_perl Logo

At 04:50 PM 1/31/2002, brian moseley wrote: >On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Paul Cotter wrote: > > > Give it some other marketting name, even if it keeps its > > original name in places like this. > >didn't you people read perrin's message? > >do you think this is the first time this topic has been >discus

New mod_perl logo - revisited

Reminder: A growing collection of new mod_perl logo candidates is available at: http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/ Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/

Re: New mod_perl Logo

ciate your position). Cheers Ron Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://savage.net.au/index.html - Original Message - From: "Paul Cotter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:36 AM Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo > > >

[REMINDER] New mod_perl Logo

A growing number of potential candidates for the new mod_perl logo is available at: http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/ Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/

[OT] Re: New mod_perl Logo

PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:48 PM > Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo > > > In a message dated 30-Jan-02 12:50:50 AM GMT Standard Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > How about "BigF

[OT] Re: New mod_perl Logo

> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Ron Savage wrote: > > All these American-style names are verging on the racist. People should instead take into consideration the alternative suggestions you provided...oh wait, nevermind. --Alex

[OT] RE: New mod_perl Logo

Uhh... the platypus, the wombat, the tazmanian devil, and the emu. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo In a message dated 30

[OT] New mod_perl logo (revisited)

I apologise in advance to those of you who receive multiple copies of this email due to my cross-posting. Due to the instability of its previous host, I have moved the mod_perl logo entries to my new Linux box (my apologies to those who were unable to review the images previously due to the inord

RE: [OT] Re: New mod_perl Logo

The last time I looked the Yeti is Himalayan and Nessie is from Scotland. > -Original Message- > From: Stephen Reppucci [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:16 AM > To: Ron Savage > Cc: mod_perl > Subject: [OT] Re: New mod_perl Logo > &

Fw: [OT] Re: New mod_perl Logo

h legal action. > - Original Message - > From: "Stephen Reppucci" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Ron Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "mod_perl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:15 AM > Subject: [OT] R

Re: [OT] RE: New mod_perl Logo

* Rob Bloodgood ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [31 Jan 2002 09:32]: > Uhh... the platypus, the wombat, the tazmanian devil, and the emu. That's 'Tasmanian'. And they're wonderfully cute and vicious brutes. cheers, -- iain.

Re: [OT] New mod_perl logo (revisited)

"Jonathan M. Hollin" wrote: > > I apologise in advance to those of you who receive multiple copies of > this email due to my cross-posting. > > Due to the instability of its previous host, I have moved the mod_perl > logo entries to my new Linux box (my apologies to those who were unable > to re

Re: [OT] New mod_perl logo (revisited)

> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:35:18 -, "Jonathan M. Hollin" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I am still soliciting entries for the new logo (send to > mod_perl[at]digital-word.com)... so please keep those images coming. What about entering the old logo as a competitor as well? I think I'd vo

Re: [OT] New mod_perl logo (revisited)

Andreas J. Koenig wrote: >>On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:35:18 -, "Jonathan M. Hollin" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >> > > > I am still soliciting entries for the new logo (send to > > mod_perl[at]digital-word.com)... so please keep those images coming. > > What about entering the old lo

Re: [OT] New mod_perl logo (revisited)

> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:51:23 +0800, Stas Bekman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Andreas, all the logos from the first contest are in the competition. Sorry I missed it. Thanks for bearing with me. -- andreas

New mod_perl name was [Re: New mod_perl Logo]

how about Everest? Niagara? Multiphase? Slipstream? DigiServer? Pointillion? Web Mammoth? SharpWeb? Web Enterprise? EnterWeb? Ged Haywood wrote: > Hi there, > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Chris Thompson wrote: > > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name. > [snip] > > mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable

[ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

Fellow mod_perl hackers... It is with great pleasure that I am able to introduce you to the new mod_perl logo. So, without further ado, point your web-browsers at: http://beverley2.digital-word.com/mod_perl/winner/ The winning logo, designed by Michael Demers (mike [at] inteo.com), won by a

RE: New mod_perl name was [Re: New mod_perl Logo]

From: ___cliff rayman___ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:20 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: New mod_perl name was [Re: New mod_perl Logo] > > > how about Everest? Niagara? Multiphase? Slipstream? > DigiServer? Pointillion? Web Mammoth? S

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one > button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should > we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... I think that we need one "theme" of buttons, to ens

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

In article <001401c1cc08$bab4f2b0$b1a1a8c2@orpheus>, Jonathan M. Hollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, I request your comments on this idea... Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? I'm inclined to think a new logo i

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: I think that we need one "theme" of buttons, to ensure :: consistent branding. As per my comments when I voted :: stated, I'd love to see some buttons/logos based on the :: winning logo. In particular: :: :: - A square button that's just made up of the square cog logo :: - A square butt

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? :: Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? :: :: I'm inclined to think a new logo is little use if you're not :: consistent with the imagery it uses. Tying a button design :: into that imagery is, IMO, essential. I will f

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > :: Is the logo available in a vector file format so that we can > :: easily make > :: scaled copies of it? Or are we restricted to the pixel banners that > :: currently exist? > > All I have is non-vector JPEG. Again, I'll ask Michael. If we can

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

Hi ( 02.03.15 10:03 - ) Jonathan M. Hollin: > However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one > button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should > we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... TMTOWTDI, of course- multiple buttons! -- \js

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: Was there a button in the same style as the winning logo? :: Could Michael be persuaded to create one if not? :: :: I'm inclined to think a new logo is little use if you're not :: consistent with the imagery it uses. Tying a button design :: into that imagery is, IMO, essential. Michael

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

I think buttons based on the new logo are the way to go. > -Original Message- > From: Jonathan M. Hollin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:17 AM > To: 'Andrew Green'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ANNOUNCE

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

All, I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just realized that the logo uses "modperl", whereas mod_perl's name is "mod_perl", with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? I've always been annoyed at how often the spelling gets modified, and it seems t

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

David Ranney wrote: > > All, > > I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just > realized that the logo uses "modperl", whereas mod_perl's name is > "mod_perl", with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? > I've always been annoyed at how often the spel

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

Hi there, On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, David Ranney wrote: > I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just > realized that the logo uses "modperl", whereas mod_perl's name is > "mod_perl", with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? > I've always been annoyed a

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

At 10:46 PM 3/15/2002, John Saylor wrote: >Hi > >( 02.03.15 10:03 - ) Jonathan M. Hollin: > > However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one > > button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should > > we have several (for choice)? It's up to you...

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. :: However, I just realized that the logo uses "modperl", :: whereas mod_perl's name is "mod_perl", with the underscore. :: Does anyone else see this as a problem? I've always been :: annoyed at how often the spelling gets modified, an

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

"Jonathan M. Hollin" wrote: > > Fellow mod_perl hackers... > > It is with great pleasure that I am able to introduce you to the new > mod_perl logo. So, without further ado, point your web-browsers at: > > http://beverley2.digital-word.com/mod_perl/winner/ >

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

> The underscore really belongs to the "C/C++" language and isn't really > so much of a standard in Perl. Not true. From perlstyle: While short identifiers like $gotit are probably ok, use underscores to separate words. It is generally easier to read $var_names_like_this than $VarName

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

At 04:33 PM 03/15/02 -0500, Georgy Vladimirov wrote: >I actually like the logo without the underscore. I don't think an >underscore is very collaborative with art. The "_" has always been >irritating me a little. > >I know that there is history and nostalgia involved here but dropping >an undersco

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

Hello, WK>A single button that matches the logo will be simplier, and more WK>distinct. Too many choices is making it harder for the newcomers. I agree here. But then, TMTOWTDI is a big part of Perl culture. I suggest a democratic solution: present the logo and the favorite logo-based button as

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

DR>I really like the new logo, and in fact I voted for it. However, I just DR>realized that the logo uses "modperl", whereas mod_perl's name is DR>"mod_perl", with the underscore. Does anyone else see this as a problem? BM>It's a graphic design so I don't see that it needs to follow the Apache BM

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

e other hand we have the A, which stands for Apache, Application ... A is first, is best. So I came to aPerl or Parl 'Practical Application R* Language'? On and on just some funny thoughts :-) BR Christian == beginn original == Date: Freitag, 15. März 2002, 11:03:59 Subj

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

OK, here's my attempt at SVGing the logo. Works in Adobe's SVG viewer (Linux and Windows). I'll work on animating it next (making the cog spin). -- <:->Get a smart net mod_perl logo Michael Demers' mod_perl logo mod perl

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

Mark Fowler wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > > > However, I request your comments on this idea: should we have just one > > button (helping to develop a distinct identity for mod_perl) or should > > we have several (for choice)? It's up to you... > > I think that

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Steve Piner wrote: > I definitely agree with this. I'd like to see some more colour > variations (maybe just background colours even) to allow it to fit into > a site's design better. > > Jonathan asked whether we should have just one button, or several. I'd > say just one th

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: I actually like the logo without the underscore. I don't :: think an underscore is very collaborative with art. The "_" :: has always been irritating me a little. I don't see any reason why the underscore can't be incorporated "discreetly". I had an idea that we could have the "dp" together

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: I agree here. But then, TMTOWTDI is a big part of Perl :: culture. I suggest a democratic solution: present the logo :: and the favorite logo-based button as "the" logo and button. :: Then, also present a page which has some alternate buttons :: on it, including the two winners of the prese

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

:: A thought - what about putting the suggestion of an :: underscore by putting bars underneath the d and p of :: "modperl"? Just a suggestion to Michael as presumably he is :: revisting the design for the buttons. I had a similar idea - a single bar under the "dp" yet keeping the "dp" togethe

RE: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

Could you make it flaming? ;) > -Original Message- > From: Matt Sergeant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 12:31 PM > To: Jonathan M. Hollin > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo -

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

On Sat, 16 Mar 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] > To make things thing even more complicated I agree the need of a name > with a sounding image, which will help mod_perl to grow into corporate > computing (our future jobs). > > Recently I had a discussion with a Java programmer, who said that

[OT] Re: New mod_perl name was [Re: New mod_perl Logo]

___cliff rayman___ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > how about Everest? Niagara? Multiphase? Slipstream? > DigiServer? Pointillion? Web Mammoth? SharpWeb? > Web Enterprise? EnterWeb? % perl -wlne 'print if "delmopr" eq join "", sort /./g' dictionary premold % Actually I just wish we could s

Re: [OT][ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

On Sat, 2002-03-16 at 08:01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Recently I had a discussion with a Java programmer, who said that > mod_perl is a try to save the obsolete language Perl. His argument was > that only Java programmers are searched, especially here in Europe. Interesting. I have a friend t

Re: [OT][ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...

At 17:01 16.03.2002 +0100, you wrote: >Recently I had a discussion with a Java programmer, who said that >mod_perl is a try to save the obsolete language Perl. His argument was >that only Java programmers are searched, especially here in Europe. Naaah. Visual Basic is dominating enterprise applic

What's in a name? (was: Re: [ANNOUNCE] The New "mod_perl" logo - results now in...)

"Georgy Vladimirov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I actually like the logo without the underscore. I don't think an > underscore is very collaborative with art. The "_" has always been > irritating me a little. > > I know that there is history and nostalgia involved here but dropping > an undersco