On 2011-07-27, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
This is very subjective, but yes, I have the impression it is better.
Also the speakers tend to disappear as being the sources of the sound
and there is less interaction from the room - the sensation that the
sound is 'just there' is stronger than for straig
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 05:30:55PM -0700, Robert Greene wrote:
> I am not an electronics designer but I think the causes of
> current limiting and voltage limiting are in effect different.
> Of course the one actually happens when the other happens:
> an amp cannot maintain voltage without mainta
I am not sure I understand the question here. My impression
of why power doubles into 4 ohms compared to 8 ohms is
that most amps are voltage limited, not current limired
(until the impedance gets super-low).
And for a given voltage limit V , the power(which is nominally
VI= V(V/R)= Vsquared /R)
On 2011-07-27, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
power transmission impedance matching.
That I've understood for the longest time. But then, when you learn it
from a power electronics book -- which only talks about power
transmission efficiency at a single frequency -- and then somebody tells
you t
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:43:33PM +0200, Justin Bennett wrote:
> Maybe a similar effect to the Bloomline speakers
>
> http://www.bloomline.nl/
>
> not a very useful website if you don't speak dutch - but
> these speakers create a virtual image between 2
> vertically positioned drivers - indeed th
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 01:19:50PM -0400, Marc Lavall?e wrote:
In your earlier post you mentioned that you can't explain why you
like
virtual speakers better than using real speakers. Can you describe
some
perceived differences? For example, how are rendered mono signals;
are
they right
Hi group!
I usually don't comment very often cause most threads are "out of my
league knowledge-wise" ;-)
But today I feel tempted to comment on this amazingl amusingly subject :
The review comments on Amazon for the Audio Quest K2 speaker cable
are very entertaining in the most:
http://www
The review comments on Amazon for the Audio Quest K2 speaker cable are
very entertaining in the most:
http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/product-reviews/B000J36XR2/
Certainly more interesting than some dubious pseudo-expert 'review'
- Neil
On 7/28/2011 1:03 PM,
All of this arises in my view from two simple things:
1 People in audio do not check things double blind
and
2 People in audio do not normalize things for frequency response
and do not do precision measurements of frequency response.
Point 1 is obvious. About point 2: Small shifts in frequency
.ac.uk
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
>
> Arghhh - I shouldn't have let this out of the bag - there's clearly a
> _massive_ EU research funding opportunity here - now, how do I go about
>
a: in the northern hemisphere - because there are more people (masses- Kyrie
Eleison!) and
b: in the southern hemisphere - which is why the electroacoustic music is so
'advanced' there
drw
On 28/07/2011, at 4:50 PM, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:
> Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed th
Arghhh - I shouldn't have let this out of the bag - there's clearly a
_massive_ EU research funding opportunity here - now, how do I go about
obtaining time on the large Hadron Collider???
Dave M.
On Jul 28 2011, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:
Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the
Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either
a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black
hole
or
b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the
speaker before it has even been recorded
Dav M.
On Ju
On 07/28/2011 05:25 AM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
On 07/28/2011 12:35 AM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:
The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the
$40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably
does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name)
On 07/28/2011 12:35 AM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:
The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the
$40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably
does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name):
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system
Funny, I read the company's name as "Synthetic Research". Much more appropriate.
On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:
> The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for
> these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any
> r
The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for
these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any
royalties from them using his esteemed name):
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/
reviewed here
h
On 2011-07-27, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:
If you have a suitable LiOn battery pack, shorting the terminals out
with the cable perks up most the tired electrons - and the subsequent
explosion will remove any that are too far gone...
A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the mo
I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only
occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual
regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers.
Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through
cable as quickly as possib
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 06:50:03PM +0100, Scott Wilson wrote:
> Do you find it varies with material? People don't always say
> it this way, but sometimes increased localisation blur is nice!
Good question, but I can't give a definite answer.
Most of the material I've been working on there is
co
mashankar
>
> i have published my poems. read (or buy) at
> http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
> > From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com
> > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400
> > To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speake
If you have a suitable LiOn battery pack, shorting the terminals out with
the cable perks up most the tired electrons - and the subsequent explosion
will remove any that are too far gone...
On Jul 27 2011, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
havent you heard of t
On 27 Jul 2011, at 18:33, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 01:19:50PM -0400, Marc Lavallée wrote:
>
>> In your earlier post you mentioned that you can't explain why you like
>> virtual speakers better than using real speakers. Can you describe some
>> perceived differences? For e
On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons
in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going
anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours
connect a battery one side and short the other, so
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 01:19:50PM -0400, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> In your earlier post you mentioned that you can't explain why you like
> virtual speakers better than using real speakers. Can you describe some
> perceived differences? For example, how are rendered mono signals; are
> they right i
On 07/27/2011 04:26 AM, Marc Lavallée wrote:
Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:32:26 +,
Fons Adriaensen wrote :
The thing is that I very much prefer listening to
stereo using two virtual speakers panned into 3rd order AMB rather
than sending L,R directly to two of the speakers.
It's very interesting!
Wed, 27 Jul 2011 07:53:18 +,
Fons Adriaensen wrote :
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:26:49PM -0400, Marc Lavallée wrote:
>
> > How large is the resulting stereo image?
>
> As large as you make it, see below.
In your earlier post you mentioned that you can't explain why you like
virtual speake
Speaker wiring really is a hot topic on all audio related forums.
Next time I'll use the term "speaker wire" instead of "lamp cord". :-)
For a small and inefficient Kef satellite speaker (3" with a
tiny coaxial tweeter and internal crossover circuit), unable to
reproduce frequencies lower that 12
011 11:50 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire
discussion!)
I found this message really intriguing since the rabbit is
really in an ad for Energizer batteries not Duracell.
One wonders why advertising is useful! I have had
exactly
I found this message really intriguing since the rabbit is
really in an ad for Energizer batteries not Duracell.
One wonders why advertising is useful! I have had
exactly the same experience. The ads are memorable,
but what they are ads FOR is not.
"Better than the original"--who can forget the o
Am I missing something?
You send electrons and the speaker cone moves out, o.k.
It comes back by itself.
But surely you want it to move _in_ as well? How do you
do that without positrons.
(I think that's right, most things in surround sound
seem counter-intuitive: So I doubt if it is positrons
o
Surely a Duracell would be perfect for the job, I mean, it does wonders for
that rabbit...
The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that
those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for
example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into
anot
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 05:52:58PM +0530, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in
> speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the
> solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery o
but of course ! umashankar
i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
> From: zoanne...@yahoo.co.uk
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:26:47 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire
discussion!)
>
> I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few
years back:
>
> One "don't" that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by
think i read this in the
wireless world) umashankar
i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
> From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (re
>
> i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
>> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:57:49 -0700
>> From: d...@dgvo.net
>> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception
>>
>> On 26/07/11 3:41 p.m., Samp
umashankar
i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
> From: davehuntau...@btinternet.com
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:01:32 +0100
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception
>
>
> On 26 Jul 2011, at 17:00, surs
next year, will have same
length wires to all the speakers. umashankar
i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:57:49 -0700
> From: d...@dgvo.net
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception
&
On 26 Jul 2011, at 17:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:18:42 -0400
From: Marc Lavall?e
After reading this difficult thread (I'm replying with a new title),
I have simple questions about room sizes and speaker distances.
Imagine two rooms with proper acoustic
I think this has a lot to do with the fact that there is never just one speaker on in the panned to
ambi rig, unlike the stero case, at least for amplitude panned material. This makes the imaging less
susceptible to acoustic differences between the speakers.
Dave
On 27/07/2011 03:26, Mar
Apart from the damping problem which has been very well laid out by Fons, there is another factor
which can come into play and which I documented in an article in Hi-Fi for Pleasure many years ago.
The fact is that many poorly constructed cables, when hit with a bit of power, will actually produc
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:26:49PM -0400, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> How large is the resulting stereo image?
As large as you make it, see below.
> Is your technique documented somewhere?
> Can it work with a horizontal hexagon?
> With 2rd order AMB?
Sure. There isn't much to document, just
set up
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 01:41:51AM +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>
>> I certainly don't want you to waste your money on fancy speaker
>> cables.
>
> Never thought otherwise. That's obviously never been what we do here. ;)
>
>> But resistance does matter, so a
On 26/07/11 3:41 p.m., Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
I certainly don't want you to waste your money on fancy speaker cables.
Never thought otherwise. That's obviously never been what we do here. ;)
But resistance does matter, so a good cross section such as 2.5 mm^
Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:32:26 +,
Fons Adriaensen wrote :
> Lamp cords ? Use at least 2.5 mm^2 !
I'll use less than 10 meters of cabling to drive 10W max in each tiny 6
ohms speaker. So I'm not worried at all. Gauge 14 or 16 should be fine:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
> The thing
On 07/27/2011 12:41 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
I certainly don't want you to waste your money on fancy speaker cables.
Never thought otherwise. That's obviously never been what we do here. ;)
But resistance does matter, so a good cross section such as 2.5
On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
I certainly don't want you to waste your money on fancy speaker
cables.
Never thought otherwise. That's obviously never been what we do here. ;)
But resistance does matter, so a good cross section such as 2.5 mm^2
puts you on the safe side.
What I was
On 2011-07-27, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
my gut feeling had always been that in the presence of HF cues, you
can get away with sloppy LF cues (as in, drive all your subs in mono
for maximum ooomph, but the kick sound of the kick drum will make sure
it's localised properly). maybe i was wrong.
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 01:16:59AM +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>
>> Lamp cords ? Use at least 2.5 mm^2 !
>
> Where does this come from? I've never though cable geometry matters much
> at all, unless your pumping so much power through a cable over such a
>
On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
Lamp cords ? Use at least 2.5 mm^2 !
Where does this come from? I've never though cable geometry matters much
at all, unless your pumping so much power through a cable over such a
long distance that you have to worry about ohmic heating and the like.
An
On 07/26/2011 10:58 PM, Aaron Heller wrote:
Some papers that may be of interest:
<..>
Antje Ihlefeld and Barbara G. Shinn-Cunningham, "Effect of source
spectrum on sound localization in an everyday reverberant room," J.
Acoust. Soc. Am. Volume 130, Issue 1, pp. 324-333 (2011)
http://dx.doi.or
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 04:35:39PM -0400, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> I will do it in software. It's a domestic setup, so I don't need
> expensive active speakers and cabling; I prefer to use very small
> speakers with lamp cords.
Lamp cords ? Use at least 2.5 mm^2 !
> > the problem is that your li
Some papers that may be of interest:
Takahashi, "A Novel View of Hearing in Reverberation," Neuron, Volume
62, Issue 1, 6-7, 16 April 2009
doi:10.1016/j.neuron.2009.04.004
Devore, et al., "Accurate Sound Localization in Reverberant
Environments Is Mediated by Robust Encoding of Spatial Cues in th
Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:14:50 +0200,
Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote :
> regardless of room size, they will require a bit of equalisation. if
> the speakers are designed to be close to a boundary surface, the one
> that's not against a wall needs (gentle) bass boost. vice versa, if
> your speakers are desig
sorry, itchy trigger finger...
On 07/26/2011 10:14 AM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
as mentioned before, the floor reflection is a very strong distance cue
at close range under semi-anechoic conditions (i.e. if you want to gauge
the distance of that sabre-toothed tiger or the potential mating
cand
On 07/26/2011 02:18 AM, Marc Lavallée wrote:
Imagine two rooms with proper acoustic characteristics and treatments
for ambisonics reproduction: the first is 3mX4m and the other is four
times larger in surface (9mX12m). In both rooms there's a
horizontal hexagon of speakers, and 5 speakers are ag
Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:18:42 -0400,
I wrote :
> Imagine two rooms with proper acoustic characteristics and treatments
> for ambisonics reproduction: the first is 3mX4m and the other is four
> times larger in surface (9mX12m).
Oops! This is of course 9 times larger, not 4... Anyway, what is a the
eff
After reading this difficult thread (I'm replying with a new title),
I have simple questions about room sizes and speaker distances.
Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:35:31 +0100,
Dave Hunt wrote :
> The Distance Compensation (aka NFC, and not the shelf filters)
> attempts to correct for the loudspeakers n
Actually, the butterfly flap thing is not really good either.
In chaos, things do not cause other things. The system is
essentially noncausal.
This is a trick point. But if a system depends unstably
on its initial state, it makes no real sense to say that it
depends on its initial state at all in
Helmut Oellers wrote:
> 2011/4/26 Dave Malham
>> On 24/04/2011 19:11, Helmut Oellers wrote:
>>>...modern computers are also clever. Today nothing is unaccountable if we
>>> know the formula and all variables.
>>
>> That's a BIG assumption - and given the essentially chaotic (in the
>> mat
On 2011-04-28, Helmut Wittek wrote:
it's no easy task to evaluate distance perception under anechoic
conditions (which obviously hardly exists).
By the way, I think that is one of the reasons anechoic rooms are
perceptually so overwhelming and induce the kind of anxiety they do: in
the absen
nd-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
>>>Im Auftrag von Junfeng Li
>>>Gesendet: Sonntag, 17. April 2011 03:28
>>>An: Surround Sound discussion group
>>>Betreff: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments
>>>
>>>Dear list,
m: gre...@math.ucla.edu
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments(OT)
>
>
> The deterministic universe idea departed from serious science
> almost 100 years ago since qunatum mechanics is by nature
> nondeterministic. (More precisel
The deterministic universe idea departed from serious science
almost 100 years ago since qunatum mechanics is by nature
nondeterministic. (More precisely, 80 some years ago if you want to wait
for people to have realized exactly how intrinsic the nondeterminacy
was--Heisenberg formulated his
2011/4/26 Dave Malham
>
>
On 24/04/2011 19:11, Helmut Oellers wrote:
...modern computers are also clever. Today nothing is unaccountable if we
know the formula and all variables.
That's a BIG assumption - and given the essentially chaotic (in the
mathematical sense) nature of the Universe,
Hi
On 24/04/2011 19:11, Helmut Oellers wrote:
...modern computers are also clever. Today nothing is unaccountable if we
know the formula and all variables.
That's a BIG assumption - and given the essentially chaotic (in the mathematical sense) nature of
the Universe, wrong. We are now pre
...modern computers are also clever. Today nothing is unaccountable if we
know the formula and all variables. Audio is no mysterious. The complete
sonic field would be calculatable. The only problem is the huge amount of
variables. In principle, yet, we are able to calculate any wave front of th
On 20/04/2011 22:04, Helmut Oellers wrote:
Hi David,
you are not alone in your insigthes. Some single discrete reflections are
the most important fact for estimation of source distance.
There exist research from Helmut Wittek, who was proven, play the
reverberation from four different directions
Hi David,
you are not alone in your insigthes. Some single discrete reflections are
the most important fact for estimation of source distance.
There exist research from Helmut Wittek, who was proven, play the
reverberation from four different directions is absolutely sufficient. We
cannot use the
On 17/04/2011 02:28, Junfeng Li wrote:
Dear list,
I am now wondering how to subjectively evaluate distance perception in
virtual environments which might be synthesized using WFS or HOA (high-order
ambisonics). In my experiments, the sounds were synthesized at different
distances and presented t
Richard Lee wrote:
> You must simulate at least 2 things.
...
> You have to simulate early reflections and a reverb pattern appropriate to
> source distance. MAG has a paper on this under "Distance Panners" from an
> idea by Peter Craven.
MAG's paper is:
M.A. Gerzon, "The Design of Distance Pan
Hello Junfeng
We cannot perceive the distance regarding the sound source directly. The
both receptors for sound, differently the eyes, are dedicated for perceiving
the direction regarding the source, not the distance. Thus, we must rely
upon natural Stimul, stored by listening experience in our mi
I hope you have a control where you measure "real" distance perception too.
Not having a "real" control is a fault in many localisation experiments.
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
You must simulate at least 2 things.
At close range, you must simulate the curvature of the soundfield. This is
simply proximity for 1st order and the effect is, if anything, exaggerated.
see the Appendix of
"Is My Decoder Ambisonic", Heller et al, AES San Francisco 1980 aka BLaH3
See Daniel
pture and
reproduction.
Ralph Glasgal
www.ambiophonics.org
From: Junfeng Li
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 9:28 PM
Subject: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments
Dear list,
I am now wondering how to subjectively evaluate distance perce
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 09:28:28AM +0800, Junfeng Li wrote:
> I am now wondering how to subjectively evaluate distance perception in
> virtual environments which might be synthesized using WFS or HOA (high-order
> ambisonics). In my experiments, the sounds were synthesized at different
> distances
That's an interesting question. The environment you're working in for
synthesis could matter quite a bit. That is, if your working in, or
simulating, an environment with little reverberation it is harder to judge
distance since direct-to-reflected energy ratio is an important cue. The
other importa
edings/o6
Best,
Markus
On 17 avr. 2011, at 19:38, Dave Hunt wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:28:28 +0800
>> From: Junfeng Li
>> Subject: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> I am now wondering
Hi,
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:28:28 +0800
From: Junfeng Li
Subject: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments
Dear list,
I am now wondering how to subjectively evaluate distance perception in
virtual environments which might be synthesized using WFS or HOA
(high-order
Dear list,
I am now wondering how to subjectively evaluate distance perception in
virtual environments which might be synthesized using WFS or HOA (high-order
ambisonics). In my experiments, the sounds were synthesized at different
distances and presented to listeners for distance discrimination.
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