On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, David Roberson wrote:
Good point Eric. I saw a short video and the fan blade was tiny.
About the size of a large model plane prop. I would guess a couple of
watts, but it is difficult to determine.
A fan is unprofessional, it's a publicity stunt, a distraction. If
It is worth noting that Yildiz might not have expected his motor to fail.
And as such did not think that the load was very important.
A fan is a perfect load for being unobtrusive, imagine the doubt if he had
it turn an electrical generator?
And unlike a prony brake (plus you would not leave a
35+ Reasons Why I Think Yildiz' Magnet Motor Really Works
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:_35%2B_Reasons_Why_I_Think_Yildiz%27_Magnet_Motor_Really_Works
Reasons include: no heat, it runs at ambient temperature • Dr. Jorge Duarte has
measured 240 Watts for 5 hours and has seen inside: no
. At a slow rate such as I am referring to, the loss would be extremely
small.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 12:48 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
In reply
.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Don't confuse force with energy.
Dave
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 2:01 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
If that is true, then it follows that the Earth is doing work on
I think that the remainder of your sentence was cut off here Harry.
By analogy with your steel/magnet analysis the Earth is doing work on a
falling
Is earths gravity getting weaker by an apple falling
It is now earth plus an apple, and if enough apples fell, the gravity would
increase further, eventually measurably increasing earths gravity, and
creating an apple sauce layer of course.
And ultimately an very appley black hole.
On Mon,
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 2:01 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 7:41 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote:
If you are referring to my statement about the magnet and steel, I am not
confusing them. The force being applied to the steel is attempting to
motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 2:01 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
If that is true, then it follows that the Earth is doing work on
I think that the remainder of your sentence was cut off here Harry.
By analogy with your
about 1 msec , which I personally measured
)).
Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US
From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:42 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Eric
** **
** **
** **
*From:* David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com dlrober...@aol.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:42 PM
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke
down
** **
Eric,
** **
That is a good
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote:
The magnetization energy of neo magnets is small, hardly worth considering
as a power source.
This means the energy needed to make the domains line up, right?
- Jed
Yes.
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 2:10 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote:
The magnetization energy of neo magnets
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke
down
** **
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote:
** **
The magnetization energy of neo magnets is small, hardly worth considering
as a power source
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Mon, Apr 15, 2013 1:15 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
The magnetization energy of neo magnets is small, hardly worth considering as
a power source.
I think it's about the energy recovered from just one
1:15 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
The magnetization energy of neo magnets is small, hardly worth
considering as a power source.
I think it's about the energy recovered from just one traverse of a
magnetic material from infinity to contact
: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
If you trust wikipedia on stuff like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet#Description
Therefore, as the maximum energy density is proportional to Js2, this magnetic
phase has the potential for storing large amounts
CoE would still apply in this case
the total energy before = total energy after
energy the substance = energy of substance + energy of escaping neutrinos.
A cooling substance that violated CoE wouldn't be producing enough
particles or radiation to balance the equation.
Harry
On Sat, Apr 13,
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:24 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
That means he has a whopping 512kJ to run down during his 5 hours. This
calculates out to:
512kJ;5hour?W
(512 * [kilo*joule]) * (5 * hour)^-1 ? watt
= 28.44 W
That's just about enough to run a little fan.
...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Mon, Apr 15, 2013 9:58 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:24 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
That means he has a whopping 512kJ to run down during his 5 hours
From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 7:10:00 PM
Good point Eric. I saw a short video and the fan blade was tiny.
About the size of a large model plane prop. I would guess a couple
of watts, but it is difficult to determine.
We need good data to evaluate
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:49:20 -0400 (EDT):
Hi,
[snip]
I am having a difficult time judging the amount of energy stored in these
magnets. I recall almost having a finger removed when holding a piece of
steel near a powerful rare earth magnet. The force
In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:56:56 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
CoE would still apply in this case
the total energy before = total energy after
energy the substance = energy of substance + energy of escaping neutrinos.
A cooling substance that violated CoE wouldn't be
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 12:51 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:
In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:56:56 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
CoE would still apply in this case
the total energy before = total energy after
energy the substance = energy of substance + energy of escaping
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:10:28 -0400 (EDT):
Hi,
[snip]
I am not familiar with a process that accelerates the decay of isotopes, but
perhaps this is possible. Do you know of any method that can be employed to
determine whether or not this can be done?
NMR
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:29:19 -0400 (EDT):
Hi,
[snip]
Has anyone figured out a theory as to where the energy comes from to drive the
motor? Are the magnets depleted with time?
I think you can get a measure of the maximum energy stored in the magnets by
Don't confuse force with energy.
From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:49:20 PM
I am having a difficult time judging the amount of energy stored in
these magnets. I recall almost having a finger removed when holding
a piece of steel near a powerful rare earth magnet. The force
attracting
motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Don't confuse force with energy.
So there are two somewhat simple possibilities.
1: Magnets become demagnetized, the energy stored in their fields is
depleted.
2: The magnets enter a state of greater attraction or greater repulsion or
both over the run, this is essentially then a high tech spring that is
being unwound.
But do
borrow? Who wants to tackle
these questions?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
these questions?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3
: John Berry berry.joh...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
So there are two somewhat simple possibilities.
1: Magnets become demagnetized, the energy stored in their fields is depleted
motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:49:20 PM
I am having a difficult time judging the amount of energy stored in
these magnets. I recall almost having a finger removed when holding
a piece of steel near
On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 5:08 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
The important questions that we need answered are how much actual energy is
stored in the original magnet and how much can we borrow? Who wants to
tackle these questions?
I'll give it an attempt. The energy stored in
would almost cut a guys finger. This suggests
that a large amount of energy is available.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours
You have failed to tackle the real question.
If we have say a permanent magnet, and a C core, as we pass the magnet into
the C core, an inductive field is established.
If the inductive field will also effect the atoms, and if the material is
aligned, then the aligned atoms will have energy
...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Don't confuse force with energy.
]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Jones,
I believe that this places an approximate upper bound on how much energy
can be stored in the magnetic field of a Kg of material without an
externally supplied current, and that, if the output exceeds this bound,
some other energy
From: David Roberson
Jones,
If it performed that well, then it would be interesting.
That amount of power extracted over such a long time period would represent
a large amount of energy. I tend to think of the energy stored in a
To go a bit further .. which is way out on a fragile limb
g
… in thermodynamics, heat goes to a heat-sink but spin plays
no role. In spin-dynamics, spin goes to a spin-sink and heat plays no role.
The two should be combined, in order to accurately calculate CoE.
and extraction processes kept efficient.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 10:05 am
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
To go a bit further .. which
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:
Pardon if this is old news, but a 'spin battery' is potentially a very
efficient energy source. From the presentation:
The Spin Battery -- Stewart E. Barnes
http://www.physics.miami.edu/~barnes/SpinBattery.pdf
Cool!
For non-nanoparticle
in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
To go a bit further .. which is way out on a fragile limb
g
⦠in thermodynamics, heat goes to a heat-sink but spin plays
no role. In spin-dynamics, spin goes to a spin-sink and heat plays no
role.
The two should
I forgot to include this one:
Photon steam engines
'Work can be extracted from a single heat bath at the boundary
between classical and quantum thermodynamics'
http://cm.physics.tamu.edu/cmseminars/cm_talks/2004_04_14_Scully_M.pdf
Various conservation laws can be used to extract heat from a
Dave,
The energy available from spin appears to be in the range of combustion, for
instance; but even if it is less, spin is often convertible in a lossless
way – as torque.
You can find out more by searching for high-spin molecules, high spin
nuclei, and “ferrimagnetism,” not to be confused
. The trail of broken promises looks exactly like every other similar
story on PESwiki, and will end the same way.
AF
- Original Message -
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc:
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
Analog Fan analogit...@yahoo.com wrote:
How could anyone be surprised that there is negativity towards
Sterling's capers?
As you pointed out, this is exactly the same as countless free
energy scams Sterling has been involved with. It's not
Well, back on the farm, they say that even a blind sow finds an acorn once
in a while. This story is still unfolding, and perhaps the best thing that
can happen to Yildiz now - is to rest his case on the opinion and reputation
of Dr. Duarte ... and not to mention the PESN connection. If he can get
so
maybe one day someone will find a way in. I advise that you not hold your
breath until that occurs.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Vorl Bek vorl@antichef.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5
, Apr 13, 2013 2:35 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Well, back on the farm, they say that even a blind sow finds an acorn once
in a while. This story is still unfolding, and perhaps the best thing that
can happen to Yildiz now - is to rest his case
that occurs.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Vorl Bek vorl@antichef.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
Analog Fan analogit
At 11:34 AM 4/13/2013, Jones Beene wrote:
I have not heard anything negative so far on Dr. Duarte, who is employed at
a fairly prestigious University and has his own reputation on the line.
http://pesn.com/2013/04/12/9602294_Yildiz-All-Magnet-Motor_Demo_Report_April-12/
You will see in the
Somehow that went straight to Analog -- copying the list.
Eric
-- Forwarded message --
From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
To: Analog Fan analogit...@yahoo.com
Hi
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:54:08 -0400 (EDT):
Hi,
[snip]
All I ask is for someone to show me a source of energy that is being depleted
as work is being done by a motor and I will listen. If the source of energy
is simple as by some form of recharging from the
In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:32:54 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
Don't forget that there are two ways to violate of CoE. Either by the
creation of energy or by the destruction energy.
Harry
That opens an interesting possibility. Suppose that heat could be converted into
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Event:2013:Yildiz_Magnet_Motor_Demos#Saturday.2C_April_13.2C_10:20_pm_GMT:_Visit_to_Refuge7
(Starts with some weird Ronny/Refuge7 stuff, which needs a separate thread)
Speaking of Mr. Yildiz and the Top 5, his wight [weight?] there is diminishing
for the following
of the many units contained
inside the motor.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 11:29 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Event:2013
On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Jed Rothwell wrote:
You gotta love magic magnet motors. So beguiling! Reports like this come in
every year or so. Nothing ever seems to come of them. The person
demonstrating the motor never produces 10 of them to sell to other people,
or does anything else.
1. Figure out
From: William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:16:29 PM
I don't know if such a thing is even possible. But from the history
of the magnet motor crowd, probably it can be done, just as long as
the rotor has near zero load and only must supply frictional losses to
some
Oops : 16 x 10 (not 10 x 16)
Thrust calculator
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/4223215501/staticthrust.htm
Plugging diameter 16 pitch 10 2500 rpm and 100% efficiency gives
55W = 0.07HP
I'm nor sure what the efficiency is for converting electrical input to motor
shaft output. 80-90% ?
It does
The air flow is restricted by the small distance between the motor and the
blades. My intuition is that this restriction in mass flow would translate
into a restriction in air velocity output hence be the equivalent of
lowering the RPM proportionate the the lowering of mass flow. I base this
on
It is a surprise that there is quite a bit of negativity on vortex for this
demo.
That skepticism could be related to the 5 or 6 other similar claims on
Sterling Allan's PESN site which show signs of scam or trickery, but what is
specific problem with this one ? ... A noted professor (Duarte)
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
It is a surprise that there is quite a bit of negativity on vortex for this
demo.
There is negativity because there has been so much nonsense with magnetic
motor claims. A lot of people have been burned. We are jaded. It is unfair
to blame this person for
Rather than complaining about negativity or going on, as Sterling does,
about the energy of the people at the booth, how about helping out guys
like Fletcher who are doing the hard work?
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
It is a surprise that there is
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 7:42 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
It is a surprise that there is quite a bit of negativity on vortex for this
demo.
That skepticism could be related to the 5 or 6 other similar claims on
Sterling
Jaded, yes. As one who spent over 2 years pursuing the magmo, I can
honestly say that I am jaded.
There is no larger reservoir of magmo configurations nor physical
magnets than those of the now defunct M International. We spent about
2 megabucks.
If you want to give an idea a try, we have the
Just one other statement. Magnets in repulsion can be made to appear
to be successful in a magmo. But the magnets are degraded in each
cycle of the motor, much like striking the magnet with a hammer in
each cycle. Eventually it fails.
Magnetic motors working in attraction mode do not degrade
Pardon if this is old news, but a 'spin battery' is potentially a very
efficient energy source. From the presentation:
The Spin Battery -- Stewart E. Barnes
http://www.physics.miami.edu/~barnes/SpinBattery.pdf
(SLIDE 30) Theoretical Maximum
If one changes the magnetic state it is possible
to
-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 7:42 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
It is a surprise that there is quite a bit of negativity on vortex for this
demo.
That skepticism could be related
Yes I agree with your summary, Terry - but it does not have to be
either/or in terms of repulsion/attraction. Both is possible.
Take a lot at his patent application. He is doing something different.
It's hard to say what is different, unless you speak good German, but I hope
you will take a
Lou,
This is very interesting, but being mostly related to electronics, it does
not appear to be all that close to what Yildiz is doing … yet spintronics of
a different sort could be involved somehow.
Spintronics is a new way of incorporating nano-magnetic effects into
electronics, which they
Jones,
I believe that this places an approximate upper bound on how much energy
can be stored in the magnetic field of a Kg of material without an
externally supplied current, and that, if the output exceeds this bound,
some other energy source is being tapped. The energy density given in the
-OriginalMessage-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 7:42 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
It is a surprise that there is quite a bit of negativity on vortex for this
demo
...@htdconnect.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 12:06 am
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Jones,
I believe that this places an approximate upper bound on how much energy
can be stored in the magnetic field of a Kg of material without
http://pesn.com/2013/04/10/9602291_Yildiz_magnet-motor_runs_5.5-hours_at_Geneva_demo_day_1/
...
The motor ran from 10:28 am to 2:50 pm GMT, nearly 5.5 hours.
It started at 2600 rpm, then went up in speed to 2673, then down and up that
range for about 3 hours.
Then, a magnet was loose, and the
Wonderful if true.
You gotta love magic magnet motors. So beguiling! Reports like this come in
every year or so. Nothing ever seems to come of them. The person
demonstrating the motor never produces 10 of them to sell to other people,
or does anything else.
I once offered one of these people
jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 10, 2013 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down
Wonderful if true.
You gotta love magic magnet motors. So beguiling! Reports like this come in
every year or so. Nothing ever seems
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
It will be a cold day somewhere nearby when one of these motors can be
purchased.
Ah ha! Perhaps you have explained it. It is not a violation of COE because
the gadget is transferring heat from Hell to the device. A sort of heat
pump working through
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