date:20050118

While I see your point and recognize also, the connection to
an institution decision making process, nonetheless to my mind
the overriding principle is one of Consultation in general
between individuals (say husband  wife or family) as well as
Administrative bodies.

Dear Sandra,

I agree. My problem is that it has been applied to those who weren't
included in the consultation.

warmest, Susan


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RE: Religion and State


But I
don't think the House will legislate all the Ahkam-i-madaniyyih or a
detailed Qanun for various countries.

Dear Firuoz,

Well, we do have national and local Houses of Justice as well.

I m not sure why. Maybe Guardian never read this letter. Maybe this was a
personal opinion of Guardian not an interpretation of Baha'i Writings.

Huh? He was elucidating the structure of the Baha'i World Order! Don't
forget the Guardian is supposed to be infallible in protecting the Cause as
well. If he were to so distort Baha'u'llah's intentions regarding the future
wouldn't that be both an interpretative and protection matter?

Actually I have seen a few letters on behalf of His secretary which did not
make much sense to me.

Don't make sense, or you don't agree with?

 I am not really sure what exactly meant by written
on behalf of Guardian. Did all letter written on His behalf went through the
same procedures. Any quality control?

I thought I already gave you the reference for that. It is a statement
written in the Guardian's own pen:

 I wish to add and say that whatever letters are sent in my behalf from
Haifa are all read and approved by me before mailing. There is no exception
whatever to this rule.

warmest, Susan


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Re: the crucifixion of Jesus

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 03:10:45 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 ...We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the 
 Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His 
 disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was 
 eternal in being.  This is what has been reported symbolically in the New 
 Testament and been misunderstood.  His eating with His disciples after the 
 resurrection is the same thing.
 -- From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, 
 October 9, 1947
 (cited: Lights of Guidance, p.493)

Do you have any sense of what the post-crucifixion events would have
looked like to physical eyes (from the Bahai perspective)? How would
you understand the women seeing the Jesus at the tomb, and especially
how would one understand the role that Doubting Thomas plays in the
story?

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:46:59 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 08:30 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
 Yes, I understand that. But that would only be an issue if the Bahai lamp 
 is the only one with light. If light shone through muiltiple lamps, you can 
 pick any lamp you want, even if for silly reasons like it was the lamp you 
 grew up with, or it was the lamp your in-laws wanted you to use, because 
 they all have light.

Mark: 
 That viewpoint would certainly agree with most approaches to the perennial 
 philosophy I have read. However, it would not, to my understanding, agree 
 with the Baha'i principle of progressive Revelation and the Covenant (the 
 Will of God).

Gilberto:
Yes, I agree with you. What I would say is that in effect the Bahai
faith (or at least many Bahais in my experience) are still just
looking at the lamp (container), not the light (the essential
spiritual truth).

Gilberto: 
 That reminds me of the parable of the grapes. They are all talking about 
 the same thing, but with different names. The moral is that the names don't 
 matter.

Mark:
 Again, that is one reason why I find such approaches to the philosophia 
 perennis to be so problematic. The names *do* matter if they are pointing to 
 God's Will.
 

Gilberto:
In what way do they matter?

Pecae

Gilberto


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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:46:15 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Gilberto:
  I might have. Personally, I would have to make a serious study of
  Daniel and Revelation before I would feel really confident responding
  in a specific way. Offhand my impression is that Biblical prophecies
  are really murky, and given the range of different interpretations
  given to the various passages through the centuries, I don't think
  there is going to be anything conclusive come out of them.
 
 Patti:
 As I stated, this prophecy is clearly explained elsewhere in Baha'i terms in
 Some Answered Questions  Thief in the Night. 


Gilberto:
I know that. I've looked at Thief in the Night and even Bahais admit
that there are mistakes in it. The approach taken didn't seem very
intuitive to me. I'm really skeptical of how I've seen Biblical
prophecies interpreted in general, whether from Daniel, the Book of
REvelation or elsewhere. In order to really discuss these issues with
you, I would want to reread Daniel, reread Revelation, read the
relevant passages in Some Answered Questions and go through them and
see how I think everything does or doesn't match up. That's alot of
work. It may seem to some folks that I don't have anything better to
do besides post in here, but it actually isn't the case.

The prophecies are vague enough that through the centuries many
different people have been named as the various actors in the visions.
The woman with the crown, the anti-christ, the beast, etc.
 

 This is not just a Baha'i
 interpreted prophecy, but was the source of The Great Disappointment to a
 great number of literal minded Christians who thought the world would end in
 1844.

Yes, I realize that. I was reading about that in a different context,
and had actually mentioned it to a Bahai I know and he's the one that
lent me his copy of A thief in the night. The Millerite groups are the
predecessors to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and
ultimately even the Branch Davidians. They have their own
understandings of what happened instead during the Great
Disappointment as well.

I'll try to better understand how the prophecies are interpreted and
we can talk about it some more later on if you like.

Peace

GIlberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: the crucifixion of Jesus

2005-01-18 Thread JS

One way I would look at it is that the story is vivid in order to prove a point. Above and beyond the spiritual - allegorical point that is made, the story of Jesus's rising from the dead and walking around is fiction.
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 03:10:45 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "...We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after the resurrection is the same thing." -- From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 9, 1947 (cited: Lights of Guidance, p.493)Do you have any sense of what the post-crucifixion events would havelooked like to physical eyes (from the Bahai perspective)? How wouldyou understand the women seeing the Jesus at the tomb, and especiallyhow would one understand the role!
  that
 Doubting Thomas plays in thestory?PeaceGilberto"My people are hydroponic"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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Re: Not Exhausted

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:09:40 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/23/2004 8:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 (Don't Bahais say that the world will continue to exist indefinitely?)

 Dear Gilbert[o],  
  
 I'm going through some old posts that I missed during my vacation and noted
 the above remark. Baha'is believe creation, not the world will continue to
 exist indefinitely. 
  

What is the distinction you are trying to make? Are you saying that
the process of creation will continue, but no one object in creation
(like the planet Earth) will continue to exist? Or are you getting at
something else?

Peace

Gilberto


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Re: Not Exhausted

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:12:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:34:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 All I mean when *I* say
 corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical
 to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identical
 to the Gospel given to Jesus. 
 Dear Gilberto, 

Susan:  
 That presumes that the Torah and the Gospel were 'given' to Moses and Jesus
 in the same way Muslims believe the Qur'an was given to Muhammad. There
 isn't much evidence for that outside of the Ten Commandments. 
 
Gilberto:
I don't know what you mean by in the same way. I certainly didn't
insist on that above. All I'm saying is that the Torah was revealed to
Moses. The Gospel was revealed to Jesus.


[6.154] Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on
him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a
guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of
their Lord.

[57.27] Then We made Our apostles to follow in their footsteps, and We
sent Isa son of Marium afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We
put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy; and
(as for) monkery, they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to
them-- only to seek Allah's pleasure, but they did not observe it with
its due observance; so We gave to those of them who believed their
reward, and most of them are transgressors.

And the Quran has several other passages like that. 

And then in the Bible, under the rule of Joshua (Moses successor
according to the Bible) we read in Joshua 8

32] And there, in the presence of the people of Israel, he wrote upon
the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written.
[33] And all Israel, sojourner as well as homeborn, with their elders
and officers and their judges, stood on opposite sides of the ark
before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of
the LORD, half of them in front of Mount Ger'izim and half of them in
front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded at
the first, that they should bless the people of Israel.
[34] And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and
the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
[35] There was not a word of all that Moses commanded which Joshua did
not read before all the assembly of Israel, and the women, and the
little ones, and the sojourners who lived among them.

(And remember that Torah actually means law)

So it is pretty clear that the Torah was something given to Moses and
passed on by him. And the Gospel is something given to Jesus.


Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4 [letter 8]

2005-01-18 Thread JS





Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones.
 (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 4)

Does the primary meaning (based on the words used) of the phrase'high and low", refer to 'religious leaders and regular people', 'wise people and blind people', 'spiritual and non-spiritual','politicalleaders and regular people', 'just high and low',orsomething else?
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RE: ruhi in ireland


Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the
principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is
associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and
promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there 
are
royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there 
are
also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials.
And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another
strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi
curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any
potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach.

From personal knowledge and experience, Palabra Publications is not owned by 
Paul Lample, nor does he receive any profit from it.  He promotes Ruhi 
because he feels that it is significant material that is having a positive 
effect world wide.  Dr. Arbab was involved with the development of Ruhi and 
has first hand experience with its success.  Both gentlemen support the 
process and understand its potentialand both are quite open to other 
materialsthey have just seen the success that this process can have 
and, therefore, encourage what is available and useful.

It betrays confidence in the Universal House of Justice to assume that it is 
not aware of what is happening in the world and to suggest, by inference, 
that individual members, the ITC itself or members of the House of Justice 
are promoting something simply because of connections or royalties.

This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive 
Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member Dan 
Jordan.  Just because someone is associated with an institution, doesn't 
mean that they cannot produce or distribute materials.  In fact, it could be 
argued that the Universal House of Justice appointed Paul Lample to the ITC 
BECAUSE he was an advocate of Ruhi prior to his appointment to the ITC or 
his association with Palabras.

Paul, in particular, is one of the most inciteful people that this soul has 
had the blessing to encouter.  We worked together at the Baha'i National 
Center from 1980-1987.  Even during that time, Paul demonstrated an in-depth 
knowledge of the underlying processes effecting humanity and developed 
several though-provoking programs.  He has a tremendous intellect and, when 
everyone was talking about short-term campaigns such as I am a tiny cell, 
Paul was comtemplated the deeper processes of growth and development.

Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not about 
specific MATERIALS.  It is about developing human resources in a systematic 
manner.  People witnessed the initial stages of Entry by troops during the 
60s and 70s, but there was no systemtic method for consolidating the 
victories of the time.  Therefore, names such as paper assemblies, mass 
taught Baha'is, etc. became part of our vocabulary.  Today, we have the 
beginnings of a wonderful process that is aimed at increasing the capacity 
of the community and helping it prepare for that day when Entry by Troops 
becomes a reality.

Little by little, day by day.  The PROCESSes in the world are gradual.  
There was a time, for example, when Baha'is consumed wine.the Master 
SLOWLY weaned the friends from the practice.  Everything unfolds as He 
wills.  Ruhi is a start.  Undoubtedly, better materials will come to exist 
in the future.  Everything changes.  We must be confident that ALL is in His 
hand.

He is the All-seeing, the All-knowing, the All-wise.  Be confident!
James

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RE: ruhi in ireland


Susan, it could be argued that our efforts, in general, have been less
effective in urban areasOne cannot be sure that Ruhi, itself, is less
effective than any other approach in urban areas.

Dear James,

Yes, if effectiveness is measured by an increase in human resources or entry
by troops, then it could be said other methods don't seem any more
effective. However, we certainly can measure whether urban versus rural
Baha'is personally find Ruhi as enriching as much as they might like some
other approach.


Again, the method should not be automatically faulted; there may be other
extinuating circumstances.

The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in
study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have
active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high
growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very
active in Ruhi. But it was identified by the NTC as the area with the
greatest potential for large scale growth long before Ruhi.

warmest, Susan


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Annual Meeting ABS

Announcement and Call for Presentations
 Science, Religion, and Social Transformation
29th Annual Conference of the Association
for Baha'i Studies-North America
11-14 August 2005
Hyatt Regency Cambridge, Cambridge, Mass., USA

The juxtaposition of science and religion has been and continues to be both
a controversial and an exciting subject of universal interest in academic,
religious, and social circles. The Baha'i teachings, addressing the
division between formal science and religion in modern society, emphasize
the need to cultivate both scientific and spiritual capacities, and the
recognition that faith in God and confidence in social progress are in
every sense reconcilable; that science and religion are the two
inseparable, reciprocal systems of knowledge impelling the advancement of
civilization.
The theme of the 2005 annual conference of the Association for Baha'i
Studies invites exploration of how the deepening dialogue between science
and religion can both enrich existing knowledge and stimulate new avenues
of thought and inquiry. In particular, the conference seeks to examine the
role this dialogue plays in promoting constructive social change.
'Abdu'l-Baha states that true science is reason and reality, and religion
is essentially reality and pure reason; therefore, the two must
correspond.
Possible topics for further exploration include the following: How does the
intersection of science and religion redefine our understanding of the
relationship between matter and spirit? Modern physics and psychology, for
example, cast considerable doubt on the notion that matter is the primary
basis of reality, or that human consciousness is a simple derivative of
neurochemical processes. What are the historical and cultural origins of
the division between the modern sciences and religion, and how has the
division been both promoted and challenged? How does the notion of harmony
between scientific and religious knowledge shed new light on human origins
and human nature, bioethics, the human relationship with the natural
environment, economic activity, social organization, and the respective
roles of tradition and innovation? To what extent are method, observation,
imagination, intuition, and articles of faith shared or utilized
differently by these two knowledge systems? What are the implications of
the concept of the progressive revelation of religious truth for
epistemology, sociology, history, and the philosophy of science? How can
religious insight aid us in differentiating the factual determinations of
science from its metaphysical and ideological claims? How does the
interaction of spiritual and scientific perspectives affect the evolution
of values, identity, legal codes, and perceptions of what is normative or
anachronistic in relation to humanity's current and future social
development?
Given that both religious and scientific knowledge are relative within the
scope of humanity's ever-expanding interpretative and rational powers, what
might be the role of consultation in grounding our perceptions of physical
and social reality? What modes of research, dialogue, and action are most
effective in fostering collective understanding and positive social change?
What learning styles promote collaboration, humility, and service over
competition and elitism? Which pedagogical approaches and methodologies can
contribute to moral development? How can communities properly assess the
efficacy and social impacts of different technologies? How can a deeper
understanding of the interaction between revelation and empirical
investigation of truth ensure that knowledge is directed toward the goal of
establishing a just and peaceful global polity? These are but a few topics
from a constellation of those that we hope will emerge from the
participants' exploration of the interconnections among science, religion,
and social transformation.

Call for Presentations
Proposals are invited for presentations and workshops on (but not limited
to) the above themes, as well as performing arts presentations.
Proposals must include (1) an abstract or description of the presentation
(250-400 words), (2) biographical information, and (3) a current address,
phone number, and e-mail address. Presentations must be substantially
original work, unpublished and not previously presented. Papers will be
considered for publication in the Journal of Baha'i Studies. Youth and
first-time ABS presenters are especially encouraged to submit proposals
(contact ABS if you would like assistance in preparing the proposal).
The deadline for submitting proposals is 15 April 2005. Send to:
Association for Baha'i Studies, 34 Copernicus St., Ottawa, ON, Canada K1N
7K4; fax: (613) 233-3644; e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Updates with
the latest conference information will be posted periodically on the ABS
Web site: www.bahai-studies.ca.


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RE: ruhi in ireland


Both gentlemen support the
process and understand its potentialand both are quite open to other
materials
they have just seen the success that this process can have
and, therefore, encourage what is available and useful.



Dear James,

I have heard Dr. Arbab make remarks to this effect, however I think it was
Paul Lample who persuaded the NSA not to offer an alternative to Ruhi as
they had originally tried to do and even developed the materials for.

This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive
Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member Dan
Jordan.

Yeah, I think the difference is that people didn't feel that the
Comprehensive Deepening Program was being imposed on them the same way Ruhi
is. It was simply made available and the friends could take it or leave it.

Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not about
specific MATERIALS.  It is about developing human resources in a systematic
manner.

I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about a
Process. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process.

But I would agree with you that we should not suggest things that tarnish
the reputation of faithful servants of the Cause. There is no reason to
think anyone is promoting Ruhi for any other reason than they believe it
would serve the best interests of the Faith.

warmest, Susan


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RE: ruhi in ireland


The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in
study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have
active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high
growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very
active in Ruhi. But it was identified by the NTC as the area with the
greatest potential for large scale growth long before Ruhi.
True!
Ruhi, one could argue, is about processdeveloping the process of 
systemtic action as a routine element of the Baha'i community.  The 
materials are just a tool for establishing the process.

How are things?
Thanks, again, for coming to Shereen's reception.
James

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A Freudian Slip


It just occurred to this poster that a Freudian Slip was inadvertently made 
in a recent post about Paul Lample.  The word inciteful was inadvertently 
written instead of insightful.  This slip, however, has significance to 
this poster.

During the period in which this soul had the pleasure of working in 
association with Paul, Paul kept a pointed cartoon posted on his office 
wall.  It remains conscious in my member, over 20 years later.  The cartoon 
was as such:

An elderly figure, dressed in a flowing robe, was descending a mountainside 
carrying two stone tablets bearing ten inscriptions (obviously, a take on 
Moses with the Ten Commandments).  With the Word of God in hand, the figure 
proceeds to say: But first, Id like to share a little something I wrote 
myself.

The meaning of that cartoon to Paul (to my best understandingI dont want 
to speak for Paul) is that we often look to human understanding despite the 
fact that we have the infallible Word of God before us.

That brings up another point about Paul Lample.never has this one 
interacted with someone who has a greater affinity to the Word of God than 
Paul.  His life is guided by the Word.  He is continually immersed in the 
Word.  His actions are taken in conformity with the Word.  He constantly 
cites the Word, thus making him inciteful.

To insinuate that Paul would support Ruhi for personal gain is ludicrous.
James

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RE: Kitab-i-Iqan page 3-4 [letter 9]

2005-01-18 Thread JS



Your response reminds us all that we have to go back to the writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice for authority, and what we interpret from them forms our personal understanding, which cannot be imposed on anyone except ourselves...

Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear John Smith, You ask re" How many, both high and low" __: *Does theprimary meaning (based on the words used) of the phrase 'high and low" ,refer to 'religious leaders and regular people', 'wise people and blindpeople', 'spiritual and non-spiritual', 'political leaders and regularpeople', 'just high and low', or something else?__Dear John:The original states: line 7: A'ALII wa ADAANIYhttp://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/KI/ki-17.htmlof course this lowly one cannot interpret the Sacred Verse, butcorrelatively speaking it just means every one was expecting whatever theirlevel or background. But please recall** Joh 7:47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Joh 7:48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? Joh 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are
 cursed.**On the other verse, while we are still at it, let me share something.Re:***No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding excepthe be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. SANCTIFY YOURSOULS, O ye peoples of the world,(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 3)Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times,yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctifiedpersons of His chosen Ones(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 4)This SANCTIFICATION is actually very hard, very difficult. Today nearly 50million Twelver Shi'ihs still believe that a Child was born on the 15th ofSha'baan in the year 256 Hejra and that Child is still alive and beingnourished physically:The following is most typical of hundreds of sites:http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/history/al_mahdi(a.s.)/35.htm#link70"When we wish to speak on this to!
 pic and
 prove that Mahdi, the Expected oneis alive, receiving his sustenance and living a life just like others untilthe time when Allah gives him permission to emerge and establish the truthand Justice and destroy oppression, we are bound to mention before anythingelse, the following preliminaries:Firstly, it should be possible for man to live hundreds or rather thousandsof years and just as you are aware, science and nature do not repudiate thispossibility."However, in Twelver Shi'a, the twelfth Imam, Muhammed al-Mahdi, hidhimself way as a boy when his father, the Imam Hasan al-Askari, died in 874A.D.. This, in Shi'a, is called the doctrine of "occultation" (ghayba ). Hehid himself in a well within a cave because of the threats to his life byhis enemies, and remained in communication with the "four agents," eachsucceeding the other, until 941. This period, in which the Hidden Imam wasin contact with the rest of h!
 umanity
 through these agents who passed on theImam's messages to the world, is called the Lesser Occultation. However,starting in 941, the Hidden Imam ceased communicating to humanity throughthese agents; this period in which the Hidden Imam, still alive and onearth, cuts of all communication with humanity is known as the GreaterOccultation. However, at some point, Muhammed al-Mahdi, will return andreveal himself to humanity and appear again (zuhúr ). With him will returnfrom the dead all his enemies, and the Imam will lead the forces ofrighteousness against the forces of evil in one last battle after which willfollow the Day of Judgement. At that point will return Jesus Christ and allthe saints, prophets, and Imams of history; this, in Shi'a, is called thedoctrine of Return (raj'a ).http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/IMAM.HTM2] similarly millions and millions more believe Jesus Christ is physicallyalive and will com!
 e with
 the same physical body...So when the Sacred Iqan says SANCTIFY YOURSELVES this is a very veryfar-reaching divine instructionhttp://biblia.com/christ/ascension.htmThe God-Man in Heaven:Jesus returns to Heaven, to the same place where he is from eternity,but he returns a little different, as Man-God!, WITH THE SAME BODY, BLOOD,SOUL AND DIVINITY HE HAD ON EARTH. He ascends to receive the glory due toHim as a conqueror of sin and death (Phi.2:8-11). To be our Mediator andadvocate to the Father (Heb.9:24). To send the Holy Spirit as he promised inthe Last Supper (Jn.16:7). To prepare a place for us, as he also promised inthe Last supper (Jn.14:2).Now Jesus is seated at the Father's right hand (Lk.24:19), in the sameplace and with the same honour and power he had for eternity, for everythingwas created by Him and for Him, and everything is sustained by Him(Col.1:15-17,
 Jn.1:1-3)__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To

Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

2005-01-18 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

:
Yes, I understand that. But that would only be an issue if the Bahai lamp 
is the only one with light. If light shone through muiltiple lamps, you 
can pick any lamp you want, even if for silly reasons like it was the lamp 
you grew up with, or it was the lamp your in-laws wanted you to use, 
because they all have light.

The first clear statement regarding the light and its function, in my 
understanding, is in Genesis

3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of 
Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way 
of the tree of life. (King James Bible, Genesis)  That light, from whatever 
Cherubim or Messenger is always shinning.

Viewing this as a  Christian one would get the impression that the Cherubims 
are keeping Adam and Eve (mankind) out of the Garden.  Taking cherubims as 
celestial beings or angels, and being aware that Muhammad was made to deny 
that He claimed to be one of the angels, the verse:

50:20 And every soul shall come, - an angel with it urging it along, and an
angel to witness against it - (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura  50 - Kaf)
yet may well refer to Messengers of God being promised and one previous to a 
soul's time on earth.  For the angel driving the soul would be the Messenger 
for the day in which the soul lives; and the witness angel being the very 
same Messenger Who is then resurrected with a new name; which would fit with 
the word cherubim being in the plural in Genesis.

The flaming sword would necessarily be the Word of God itself:
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to 
send peace, but a sword.

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went 
a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his 
strength.

The conclusion then would be that the Light is the Word of God which is 
always held aloft by His Messengers so that the souls may find their way to 
Paradise.  It therefore does not matter with which Prophet or Messenger or 
Manifestation one begins because He will have prophesied the next to come. 
It follows then that obedience to the Message in one's hand will result in 
one accepting any succeeding Message.  The subsequent Messenger is the 
previous Messenger resurrected. God is One.  He is God.

Seek and ye shall find
Richard.






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In a message dated 1/18/2005 11:28:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about aProcess. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process
I agree. Ruhi is a curriculum. I have done four books so far. Book I which is an okay approach to basic spiritually oriented material, is basically sound, but I do not think the material can be presented in the same way to seekers as it is to believers. To believers it is taught as material to be nearly memorized at least, not discussed with questions of "What does this mean?". With seekers, gosh, I think questions should be encouraged and dealt with as honestly and directly as possible, preferably with more than one answer from more than one person, and lots of discussion.

Book 2, I personally found to be lamentable - with text and editorial opinion intermixed so much that newcomers would find it hard to seperate one from the other..

Book 4, I found good, but basic. I kind of co-facilitated because I prepared material from Dawnbreakers or Taherzadeh to elaborate on the glosses.

Book 7 was okay, I think more facilitators should do it more than once with more than one facilitator to allow more flexible approaches.

There is nothing wrong with Ruhi that another set or two of prepared material would not cure. Right now it is the only cow to buy and it might or might not be a milk cow and you might or might not be in the market for a dairy cow in the first place.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: the crucifixion of Jesus




In a message dated 1/18/2005 11:26:21 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sure, that's something of how I might make sense of the Biblicalaaccounts myself. But still, I wonder if that was the case, even ifyou are going to say the story is fiction, why would Thomas be writtenthat way.
Because it is a parable of "Iqan" - Certitude. Thomas doubts, and finds certitude, and is blessed for it. He is the only one of the disciples who exhibits the quality of "independent investigation".


Regards,

Scott
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Re: Lamp goes Dark or remains Lit?




In a message dated 1/18/2005 2:31:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
G: But then would you say that an old lamp goes dark? Or do they continueto possess the same light?
When a religion comes to this world it has its own life cycle, while the "lamp is lit"so to speak and the word of the Prophet is still elevated above the form of worship and the dogma of belief the lamp is lit and glows bright.

As the words of the Prophet are less and less important compared to thhe forms and appearance of worship the light dims. Does it ever go out entirely? I don't think so. But if the light is the object of one's desire, then one should seek the light and not wonder why this particular lamp is not as bright as one would like.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Not Exhausted

2005-01-18 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 10:54 AM 1/18/2005, you wrote:
So it is pretty clear that the Torah was something given to Moses and passed 
on by him. And the Gospel is something given to Jesus.

Actually, I suspect it is much more simple. I don't think that either the terms 
Torah (turat) or Gospel (injiil) were somethings. They were names used in 
the Qur'an for, respectively, the Revelations of Moses and Christ. IMO, these 
terms, in this particular context, have no direct relationship with the 
Pentateuch and the four Gospels, which are human records of, and commentaries 
on, those two Revelations. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Lifeworlds are the structurizations of wills  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. - Abbie Hoffman 


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A reminder


This avoids the fact that Ruhi is not the process. Study Circles are the
process and Ruhi is just ONE system of study.
The quote was: Ruhi is ABOUT process...it was never stated that Ruhi IS 
the process.  But the point remains, Ruhi encourages a process, which is the 
key.  Study circles, like Ruhi, are tools to an end.  Neither is the 
PROCESS.

Systematically developing human resources is a PROCESS.  And I am confident 
that there are numerous other processes that are being encouragedsome 
that we may not even be conscious of.

James

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Re: A reminder




In a message dated 1/18/2005 4:05:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Systematically developing human resources is a PROCESS. And I am confident that there are numerous other processes that are being encouragedsome that we may not even be conscious of.
Systematically developing human resources is the OBJECTIVE. Sutdy Circles is the PROCESS, and RUHI is curriculum. WHile on thisentry by troops is the GOAL.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: another Freudian slip!

2005-01-18 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

Dear James 
Faithful devotee of Paul and the Process

You made another Freudian slip here when you say below
** Paul kept a pointed cartoon posted on his office 
wall.  It remains conscious in my member, over 20 years later**
you meant member or memory?

With love and humility lower than Paul and the Process khazeh

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Mock
Sent: 18 January 2005 18:56
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: A Freudian Slip



It just occurred to this poster that a Freudian Slip was inadvertently made 
in a recent post about Paul Lample.  The word inciteful was inadvertently 
written instead of insightful.  This slip, however, has significance to 
this poster.

During the period in which this soul had the pleasure of working in 
association with Paul, Paul kept a pointed cartoon posted on his office 
wall.  It remains conscious in my member, over 20 years later.  The cartoon 
was as such:

An elderly figure, dressed in a flowing robe, was descending a mountainside 
carrying two stone tablets bearing ten inscriptions (obviously, a take on 
Moses with the Ten Commandments).  With the Word of God in hand, the figure 
proceeds to say: But first, I'd like to share a little something I wrote 
myself.

The meaning of that cartoon to Paul (to my best understanding.I don't want 
to speak for Paul) is that we often look to human understanding despite the 
fact that we have the infallible Word of God before us.

That brings up another point about Paul Lample..never has this one 
interacted with someone who has a greater affinity to the Word of God than 
Paul.  His life is guided by the Word.  He is continually immersed in the 
Word.  His actions are taken in conformity with the Word.  He constantly 
cites the Word, thus making him inciteful.

To insinuate that Paul would support Ruhi for personal gain is ludicrous.

James






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RE: ruhi in ireland

James wrote:

Paul is very aware of the tendency for the American community to become
gemicky.he seeks a sustained process.  Let's start out by focusing on
one set of materials; after we have mastered that, then we move on.

Gimicky?

Work had been done on the Fundamental Verities program long before Ruhi
arrived on the scene. At the time, though, it didn't quite fit the House's
latest criteria for Study Circles. So the next few years were spent
modifying it for that purpose. Then when the revised program was ready to
launch it was torpedoed. What really bugs me James, is that just after this
happened Doug Martin went around the country talking about how Ruhi hadn't
come from the Universal House of Justice but people had voted for it with
their feet. How can he say that when the only chance we might have had to
'vote' was just taken away?

  I know
there is more to his thinking than simply Ruhi.

Yeah, there is. His argument was that the ITC's research indicated there
needed to be 50 believers in each locality who had completed the entire
sequence for there to be sufficient human resources to sustain large scale.
The fear was that having two different sequences might slow down the process
of communities reaching that goal. Maybe that is a legitimate concern. But
if Ruhi is being imposed from above, at least they should admit that is what
they are doing rather than tell us we voted for with our feet.

I have never felt that Ruhi has been imposed upon meonly that a
process has been encouraged.

I'm glad you haven't. But that isn't the case everywhere. Study Circles
(unlike CDP) have been made the center of Baha'i community life and those
who don't participate are naturally going to feel marginalized. At the
Nashville Conference a couple of years ago, for instance, Ruhi was all the
speakers talked about, so if your one of those who really can't stomach it
you are bound to feel alienated. Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that to
be a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up study
circles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi. I
know there are areas in the Pacific where Baha'is trying to teach other
kinds of deepenings have been told to stop for fear it might detract from
Ruhi. In other places Ruhi has been made the prerequisite for other kinds of
service to the Cause, such as teaching children's classes or participating
in teaching projects. Right now I'm teaching children's classes so all the
other adults can do Book 3, when they finish I suppose I will no longer be
qualified to teach childrens classes, after all, I haven't done Book 3. ;-}

Susan, this is one point that concerns me:  internet lists have, at times,
raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is
derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution.  IMO, to
make such a comment is never acceptable.

Derogatory is a bit too broad a term and could be applied to anything that
is the least bit critical. But I think we do need to avoid saying things
which on anyone's integrity without the strongest proof. We also need to
avoid undermining the authority of the institutions, which I grant you has
been fairly liberally interpreted on this list.

warmest, Susan



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RE: A Freudian Slip


To insinuate that Paul would support Ruhi for personal gain is ludicrous.

Dear James,

I don't think Steve ever intended for it to come out that way. In the US
Ruhi materials are pretty cheap, about $5 a course per person. But in New
Zealand, where Steve is from, those same materials are rather costly,
probably due to shipping costs. That might lead some to imagine that people
are making a profit on this. But I agree with you that we need to avoid
letting such suspcions enter our hearts, let alone voice them publicly.

warmest, Susan


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Re: ruhi in ireland




In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:37:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that tobe a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up studycircles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi. 
The Southern Regiona Council has released a pamphlet for homefront pioneers that states this quite clearly, Susan.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Lamp goes Dark or remains Lit?




In a message dated 1/18/2005 6:26:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto.But that's just it. I don't think the previous lamps are dimmer thanthe Bahai lamp. I don't think the words of the prophet are lessimportant. I don't think the light is brighter in the Bahai faith. Itsjust another religionus community.No better than any other.PeaceGilberto
I haven't a quarrel in the world with you for your choice. I feel it differently, of course, but I doubt you have a quarrel with that either.
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Re: Lamp/oops! hit send buttom

In a message dated 1/18/2005 6:26:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto.But that's just it. I don't think the previous lamps are dimmer thanthe Bahai lamp. I don't think the words of the prophet are lessimportant. I don't think the light is brighter in the Bahai faith. Itsjust another religionus community.No better than any other.PeaceGilberto
I haven't a quarrel in the world with you for your feelings. I doubt you have a quarrel with me for mine. I would close with this:

Paris Talks, by `Abdu'l-Bahá, pp. 103-104:
"Ifa man were to declare, `There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light', one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp , he knows the truth! Again, a man proclaims: `There lies a garden in which there are trees with broken branches bearing no fruit, and the leaves thereof are faded and yellow! In that garden, also, there are flowering plants with no blooms, and rose bushes withered and dying--go not into that garden!' A just man, hearing this account of the garden, would not be content without seeing for himself whether it be true or not. He, therefore, enters the garden, and behold, he finds it well tilled; the branches of the trees are sturdy and strong, being also loaded with the sweetest of ripe fruits amongst the luxuriance of beautiful green leaves. The flowering plants are bright with many-hued blossoms; the rose bushes are covered with fragrant and lovely roses and all is verdant and well tended. When the glory of the garden is spread out before the eyes of the just man, he praises God . . . "

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Religion and State

2005-01-18 Thread Firouz Anaraki

Dear Susan,
I am sure you have read the following, but let's once more have a look at 
them:

For example, the question of Universal Peace, about which His Holiness 
Bahá'u'lláh says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established:  although 
the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable 
of establishing Universal Peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which His Holiness 
Bahá'u'lláh has described will fulfil this sacred task with the utmost might 
and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each 
country and nation -- that is to say parliaments -- should elect two or 
three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed 
concerning international laws and the relations between governments and 
aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The 
number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of 
inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by 
the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the 
upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or 
monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the 
government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will 
be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of 
these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme 
Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or 
by majority-rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or 
ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or 
nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme 
Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up 
against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the 
supporters of this Supreme Tribunal. Consider what a firm foundation this 
is! But by a limited and restricted League the purpose will not be realized 
as it ought and should. This is the truth about the situation, which has 
been stated.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 291)

From above I conclude that that the members of this Supreme Tribunal are 
from among all nations and their qualifications are very different from the 
election of the House of Justice. Non-Baha'is and women can be members of 
this world parliment.

Should differences arise, they shall be amicably and conclusively settled 
by the Supreme Tribunal, that shall include members from all the governments 
and peoples of the world.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 13)

Again above we see that Abdu'l-Baha confirms that the members of this world 
Tribunal includes all the peoples of the world, men, women, Baha'is and 
non-Baha'is.

The Supreme Tribunal is an aspect of a world Superstate; the exact nature 
of its relationship to that state we cannot at present foresee. Supreme 
Tribunal is the correct translation; it will be a contributing factor in 
establishing the Lesser Peace.
(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 69)

To me Guardian is saying that we cannot foresee the exact nature of its 
relationship with the state. Now what I personally can conclude from all the 
above and the letter written on behalf of the Guardian is this: World 
tribunal and Universal House of Justice could merge if and only if all the 
peoples of the earth become Baha'is and women are allowed to be elected in 
this merged body.

Really speaking I believe that we cannot foresee at this time in history how 
the future world government operate and its relationship with the UHJ. So I 
would like to suggest we should not advocate one way or the other. But it 
seems to me that at present majority of Baha'is do think similar to yours 
for a future super state and I would like to down play such a concept that I 
consider is not really healthy for the progress of the Faith.

regards,
Firouz


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Re: Ruhi in Thailand

Firouz, 

I am sorry for your experiences. They do not seem to
be good. 

A couple of years ago (2 I think) there was a
counsellor from Russia over in Ireland to attend a
non-Bahai conference. She told us that in her town the
LSA decided to offer the Ruhi book 1 as a personal
development course to the wider community
(non-Bahais). 
They adapted the book insuch a way that people could
attend only one session if they wanted and asked for
feed back each session. This seemed to work well. 

I have always believed the books can be adapted. Maybe
you could have a further talk with your ABM about
this? And also, nothing I feel prevents you from
setting up your own study circle. I don't think your
LSA would forbid you to set up a study circle.

Quite often we feel that when an ABM or counsellor
says such and such that that is the end ofthe matter.
I think though that we can have far more say in things
than we think we can. We can ask for a consultation
with the ABM/Counsellor (thatis what they are for) but
in the end they are individuals. Individuals who are
considered to have an insight, wisdom and knowledge of
the BAhai writings which makes them worthy to be part
of the Branch of the Learned so their words weigh for
me heavier than that of another individual, but that
does not makethem infallible. 

I believe in the spirit of cooperation but I do not
beleive in shutting up. I think that there is a way of
consultation one can apply which is not argumentative,
not hostile, but which is open and searching. 
I never read that counsellors and ABMs are under the
same protection and guidance as LSAs, NSAs and the UHJ
from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. We have the
institutions to make the decisions, but what a person
says is not binding and does not have to be always
inspired.

I hope you will find a way to set up your own study
circle, (not a ruhi one) or to adapt the ruhi books to
such a degree that they become successful in the area
where you are. If you set up your own study circle and
it is successful, people will notice and questions
will be asked. 

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland



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RE: ruhi in ireland

Susan: In fact
 I was just thinking
 about just how visceral my reaction to Ruhi was;
 that I open the book and
 almost feel it shouting at me, We don't want you to
 think! But my
 experience of this material is probably shaped, at
 least in part, by the
 anti-intellectualism I've seen in the community at
 large.

I did not have that after it was explained to me why
you had to go back again to the quotes. 

Book 6 seems to abandon that method of not wanting to
think quite a bit. 

 
Susan:
 If I recall correctly the passage you are alluding
 to, I think it is one
 which has been misused a lot. Wasn't Abdu'l-Baha
 talking more about Assembly
 members all getting behind a decision that the
 majority agreed upon rather
 than so much the community at large? In other words
 we are talking about a
 situation where each Assembly member got their say
 before the decision in
 question was made. I think the frustration a lot of
 us feel is over the fact
 that we were never part of the consultative process
 which decided on Ruhi
 material to begin with. In fact, even our NSA seems
 to have largely been
 shut out of the process. It mostly came down from
 the ITC, which as you
 know, is not an elected institution.

I did not read it as such, I have read it quite a few
times over the last year. But I will get it again from
Ocean when I am home (this computer does not have
Ocean) and read it again. 

I have the impression Abdu'l-Baha was talking about
the attitude any Bahai should have, not only LSA
members. 

Susan about firesides:
 He didn't just encourage it, he said it was the
 *best* teaching method. And
 I can't bring myself to introduce most of my friends
 to the Baha'i Faith
 through study circles. You mentioned how close its
 methods are to the
 Jehovah Witnesses. That is going to be the most
 striking thing to a visitor.
 I remember attending a Kingdom Hall meeting as a
 child and watching them use
 that method, thinking to myself that JWs weren't
 allowed to think. I never
 went back.

Well... yes he said that. This was before the plan of
the study circles. What is a fireside? Getting a
couple of friends together and talk about the Bahai
faith. What did it turn into? official talks about
peoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I have
heard very few quotes studied in a fireside. 

When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community was
much smaller. The UHJ has given us the institute
process whihc is offering study circles, childrens
classes and devotionals to the community at large. 

Firesides can still happen. I will not go through all
the ruhi books again after I have finished the cycle.
I hope to be able to be a facillitator, and maybe even
involved in setting up study circles which either
adapt the ruhi method to a particular group of people
or offer a different approach, again geared towards a
certain group of people. 
I want to look for example into the Core material. 

 
 Yeah, but we keep talking about 'multiplying' these
 activies which suggest
 to me that even when we are finished we just start
 the whole thing over
 again, which again, takes up all our resources.

The study circles are first and foremost something to
offer to the community. We are talking about
multiplying the study circles, and at this moment in
Ireland the ruhi books are offered, so it looks like
we are multiplying the method of ruhi, but I wonder if
that is what each and everybody means when talking
about multiplying activities. 

If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask for
feedback of that friend, and if the friend is not
happy with the method, I will ask what she feels about
the quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I will
ask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahai
writings, and then work out a system wherewith she can
study the writings. 

I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurred
just now to me that maybe some people do not do
this...

Susan: 

 I have to say as a whole I find the facilitators in
 the US more flexible
 than the material itself seems to be.

It is interesting that you and I have such a different
experience with the books themselves. Interesting to
me because I know myself as having a deep aversion of
anything that is fundamentalistic, anythign that is
routine like and does not induce using the mind.  
I worry a bit that maybe I am overlooking something. 
I have done book 1,2,4(which was okay like, not too
exciting, most of it I knew already but some details I
had forgotten, plus I am quite good in story telling,
have a lot of experience with)book 3 and book 6. In
that sequence. 

Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children,
which is very much in alignment with my view, so i had
not muchproblems there, but that is the only book I
can remember that strongly focussed on the
interpretation of the editors of the writings (in this
case, on how to treat children). Book 2, the theory is
quite good but the examples could be changed, shoudl
be changed, to a more urban or western

Re: Ruhi in Thailand

Dear Firouz, 

Yes, time is a big thing. And talk about taking the
words of an ABM or Counsellor for holy... (sigh). 

the first time I ever went to summer school, before
becoming Bahai, Adib Taherzadeh was there and he was a
counsellor. Most of us were camping. Every day Adib
woudl walk the camping ground, saying hi to people,
obviously trying to make contact. He was a bit shy, so
he would not know exactly what to say after he said
hi, but his whole manner was very friendly and
indicative of wanting to have contact. 
And everybody was too much in awe to invite him for a
cup of coffee or tea! 
So I went up to him at my third day and talked to him,
treated him as a normal human being. He introduced me
to his wife and his two then very small children. And
a  lot of people said to me: wow! Some admiringly,
others with a hint of disapproval. I said: look, he is
obviously looking for contact, and I think it is
painful if nobody talks to him, treat him like a
friend. They said: but do you know he is a counsellor?
And I said: so what? He obviously wants to make
friends with us, so why do we keep us away from him? 

I live now since 7 years in Dublin. Adib Taherzadeh
pioneered for a long time, until he became member of
the House of Justice, in the Dublin area. Some people
quote him all the time, and I get a bit sick of that.
As if his word was infallible. 
and I do say that occasionally. NOt too often, cause I
have a sharp tongue and often what I say comes out far
stronger than intended and will hurt peoples feelings.


It is difficult when you are in a community where
people are not very deepened, where you know more than
they do. It is like being with children: a lot of
patience and biting back of words is needed. 
Part of the process of sacrifice I think may be this,
that one can see a certain aspect of the big diamond
Truth that others cannot see, even when you point it
out to them. One then need to chose the moments when
one can speak about that aspect of truth very wisely. 

It can be very lonely being a Bahai. 

I wish you much strength and love, 

janine


--- Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear janine,
 
 Thanks so much for your feedback. You're right
 absolutely and I fully agree 
 with you on various points you are discussing here.
 
 The problem to my opinion is that majority of
 Baha'is specially here in Asia 
 are not so deepened in the Writings and many do
 consider the words of a 
 House member or a counselor or even a ABM as the
 Words of Baha'u'llah. If a 
 counselor suggests something, everyone take it for
 granted that what is 
 being suggested should be done. Being also a member
 of a LSA, I see very 
 similar attitude among the members of LSA. I do hope
 somehow that all 
 friends become more and more deepened by Ruhi or
 otherwise. Personally I do 
 not count much on Ruhi.
 
 At this time I have just enough time to have a
 monthly fireside at my home 
 which I do prefer it to a study circle.
 
 regards,
 Firouz
 
 
  Firouz,
 
  I am sorry for your experiences. They do not seem
 to
  be good.
 
  A couple of years ago (2 I think) there was a
  counsellor from Russia over in Ireland to attend a
  non-Bahai conference. She told us that in her town
 the
  LSA decided to offer the Ruhi book 1 as a personal
  development course to the wider community
  (non-Bahais).
  They adapted the book insuch a way that people
 could
  attend only one session if they wanted and asked
 for
  feed back each session. This seemed to work well.
 
  I have always believed the books can be adapted.
 Maybe
  you could have a further talk with your ABM about
  this? And also, nothing I feel prevents you from
  setting up your own study circle. I don't think
 your
  LSA would forbid you to set up a study circle.
 
  Quite often we feel that when an ABM or counsellor
  says such and such that that is the end ofthe
 matter.
  I think though that we can have far more say in
 things
  than we think we can. We can ask for a
 consultation
  with the ABM/Counsellor (thatis what they are for)
 but
  in the end they are individuals. Individuals who
 are
  considered to have an insight, wisdom and
 knowledge of
  the BAhai writings which makes them worthy to be
 part
  of the Branch of the Learned so their words weigh
 for
  me heavier than that of another individual, but
 that
  does not makethem infallible.
 
  I believe in the spirit of cooperation but I do
 not
  beleive in shutting up. I think that there is a
 way of
  consultation one can apply which is not
 argumentative,
  not hostile, but which is open and searching.
  I never read that counsellors and ABMs are under
 the
  same protection and guidance as LSAs, NSAs and the
 UHJ
  from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. We have the
  institutions to make the decisions, but what a
 person
  says is not binding and does not have to be always
  inspired.
 
  I hope you will find a way to set up your own
 study
  circle, (not a ruhi one) or to adapt the ruhi
 books to

Re: ruhi in ireland

:o)

I must admit i was in a slightly provocative mood when
I made that statement. 

The thing is, what I often see people call a fireside
I don't think is a fireside at all. It is an official
talk about what one person thinks the bahai faith is
saying about a certain topic. 

But then, I am a person who likes study. I became a
Bahai by reading the writings and then asking
questions, not through going to firesides. 

The personal connection with someone one wants to
introduce the Bahai faith to is the most important
asset we have. But I see that as well as in building
up such a bond with a person that I can overcome my
fear of rejection and invite them to a study circle,
deepening, devotional, and be able to talk freely
about  the bahai teachings and my bahai life with that
person. 

To me, talking like this with a person is a
fireside...

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:21:51 PM Central
 Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have
 stopped, 
 The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S.
 that the institute process 
 should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it
 is, then attitudes need 
 adjustment to comply with the guidance on the issue.
 
 
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RE: Ruhi in Thailand [lonely]

2005-01-18 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir


It can be very lonely being a Bahai. 

I wish you much strength and love, 

Janine van rooij


To be LONELY is almost essential in being a Bahai

 Thou seest this Wronged One LONELY in exile: Where are the hosts of the
heaven of Thy Command, O Sovereign of the worlds? 
(Baha'u'llah:  Baha'i Prayers (US), Page: 217)
  This Youth is LONELY in a desolate land:  Where is the rain of Thy
heavenly grace, O Bestower of the worlds? 
 O Supreme Pen, We have heard Thy most sweet call in the eternal realm:
Give Thou ear unto what the Tongue of Grandeur uttereth, O Wronged One of
the worlds! 
 Were it not for the cold, how would the heat of Thy words prevail, O
Expounder of the worlds? 
 Were it not for calamity, how would the sun of Thy patience shine, O
Light of the worlds? 
 Lament not because of the wicked.  Thou wert created to bear and
endure, O Patience of the worlds. 
(Baha'u'llah:  Baha'i Prayers (US), Pages: 219-220)
Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men's eyes the hidden gems of
Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy
sovereign and everlasting power.  How bitter the humiliations heaped upon
Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How LONELY did I feel
amidst Thy people!  To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that
land! 
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Page: 89)
Through the revelation of Thy grace, O Lord, Thou didst call Me into being
on a night such as this,(1) and lo, I am now lonely and forsaken in a
mountain. 
(The Bab:  Selections from the Bab, Page: 173)
O Lord!  Strengthen my back, enable me to serve Thee with the utmost
endeavour, and leave me not to myself, LONELY and helpless in these regions.
(`Abdu'l-Baha:  Tablets of the Divine Plan, Page: 46)
How can my lonely pen, so utterly inadequate to glorify so exalted a station
[that of the Sister of 'Abdu'l-Baha], so impotent to portray the experiences
of so sublime a life, so disqualified to recount the blessings she showered
upon me since my earliest childhood - how can such a pen repay the great
debt of gratitude and love that I owe her whom I regarded as my chief
sustainer, my most affectionate comforter, the joy and inspiration of my
life? 
(Shoghi Effendi:  Baha'i Administration, Page: 187)



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RE: ruhi in ireland

Hi Susan, 

My take on it is this. 
Book 2 offered me the idea of introducing Baha'u'llahs
words in a natural way in my speech. It gave me the
practice and confidence to talk more freely than ever
before about the Bahai teachings. 

Book 6 gave me a scenario for the subjects which are
most important to be brought up in talking to another
about the bahai faith (I happen to agree with the
importance of the subjects book 6 suggest) and also
gave me a manner, a way of speakign and being with a
person one wants to tell about the Bahai faith. 
It also made me think about what teaching is. 

Book 3 taught me that a bit as well, because what it
says about how to treat children is very much
applicable to adults. To everybody. 

Book 4 was fun to do but did not teach me much. I am
good at story telling and holding on to facts and I
knew a lot of the history already. 

The social aspect of ruhi, in that you do it in a
group is important to me as well. The answers to a
question a person gives, the going off often in pairs
to learn a quote etc, helps to build personal contact.
I got to know people better, because I got to know
another dimension of them, a dimension they would not
show so much, because it is a dimension which comes up
when one is occupied with the writings. The learning
for example, by heart, together, of a quote can be
quite powerful, because both of you repeat the words
over and over again. It forges a bond. 
The human resources I am developing in that is a
better  insight in peopel and better social
interaction.

The two newly declared are adding their personal
capacities to the pool of capacity we have in our
community. That is an increase in human resources. 

In our community where a lto of people have done at
least 2 books, more and more activities to reach out
to non-Bahais are taking place. And this has not
happened in all the 7 years I have been living here,
even though we always had the same sized community. It
seems that quite a few find inspiration through doing
the books and spiral then into activities to reach out
the non-Bahai community. 

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland. 

--- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S.
 that the institute
 process should NOT make firesides and deepenings
 stop. If it is, then
 attitudes need adjustment to comply with the
 guidance on the issue.
 
 Dear Scott,
 
 I don't think it is a matter of 'attitude' it is a
 matter of energy. There
 is only so much of it to go around and right now
 that energy is being
 expended on Ruhi, leaving little time for firesides
 and deepenings. That
 being the case though, I have to question the extent
 to which Ruhi reaches
 its goal of increasing human resources?
 
 warmest, Susan
 
 
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RE: ruhi in ireland, Abdu'l-Baha about unity

Dear Susan, 

One does not exclude the other. I also feel that your
interpretation of what Abdu'l-Baha is trying to do is
too narrow. I think it does apply not only to assembly
members, but to all of the community. I will later
post some quotes for the reason why I think this, when
I am back at a machine which has ocean on it.

The focus on unity is very strong in Abdu'l-Bahas
words and writings. Yet I do feel free to bring up
anythign to the Assembly. I think I am quite unique in
this, it seems that not many Bahais feel they can do
this, or if that if they try they are rebuked. 

I think part of the problem is also the way we are
trained to think in the west. We are trained to reject
authority and to work for ourselves, to be competitive
and to see the negative first before the positive. and
to be very attached to our opinions. And to be
argumentative, rather than proceed things in a manner
of consultation. 

I am a very argumentative person. I quickly fall into
a pro-contra discussion. here in Ireland that is not
at all appreciated ;o) 
For a long time now I am asking myself how I can raise
questions and issues I have with decisions taken by
institutions and yet be cooperative and do it in a
consultative way. 

by experimenting, not fearing the rejection of others,
or disapproval, and open for correction, I am
learning. 

The realisation that my opinion and interpretation of
the writings is but an opinion and interpretation and
not the absolute truth I so often feel it is, helps
;o)

The realisation that I may see more than the average
Bahai in my community or the country I am in, helps as
well. And then the advice of Baha'u'llah to offer a
truth in the utmost kindness, and if it is not
accepted to be unconcerned by that, to be detached
from that. 
I feel free to offer my insight, because I am not too
concerned whether it is accepted or not. It may be
that I am seeing more than another, it may be that i
am just fooling myself. If I see more and itis not
accepted, then clearly the community is not ripe for
it. I can bring it up at another time. I am part of
the process, andthe process is not in my hands, but in
Gods hands. I can worry about it, but that does not
help. 

Look what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had to work
with. Plans failign because people did not do what
they needed to do and were told to do. And how patient
and lovign they were. sometimes we have to turn to God
and exert the utmost patience, because the community
at large is not where we are, yet. And forcing it does
not work. 

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin ireland




--- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Scott,
 
  What Abdu'l-Baha was trying to do was make sure
 that individual Assembly
 members did not undermine the authority of the
 institution as a whole by
 opposing the decision that body made. For them not
 to act in unity under
 these circumstances is rather like parents arguing
 discipline issues in
 front of their children--almost never a good idea if
 discipline is something
 the parents hope to maintain.
 
 I think the problem with over-generalizing that
 quotation from Abdu'l-Baha
 and applying it to the community as a whole rather
 than the individual
 members of the Assembly that made the decision is
 that it prevents the
 Assembly from getting the feedback it requires to
 determine whether or not
 something they implemented is working so they *can*
 change it if need be. If
 the believers 'for the sake of unity' feel they
 can't say what this isn't
 working corrections will never be made.
 
 warmest, Susan
 
 
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RE: Ruhi in Ireland

2005-01-18 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir


Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort of
discussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted such
discussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide a
most dear friend from a post code in nz from one in Ireland...or one from
Thailand from one in the US... I do not know what is about Ruhi but it does
rapidly generate these tensions when discussed and discussed [not when
implemented perhaps]. One can study texts the Revealed Word as I am doing as
John Smith is doing [just as one can do so in a home in Ireland]. Let us be
friendly. Mark can you come to our help? Humblest dust in the path of all
khazeh

Only the Word of God can unite not Ruhi as Ruhi...
[or I am mistaken]
*** Consider the flowers of a garden.  Though differing in kind, color,
form and shape, yet, inasmuch as they are refreshed by the waters of one
spring, revived by the breath of one wind, invigorated by the rays of one
sun, this diversity increaseth their charm and addeth unto their beauty.
How unpleasing to the eye if all the flowers and plants, the leaves and
blossoms, the fruit, the branches and the trees of that garden were all of
the same shape and color!  Diversity of hues, form and shape enricheth and
adorneth the garden, and heighteneth the effect thereof.  In like manner,
when divers shades of thought, temperament and character, are brought
together under the power and influence of one central agency, the beauty and
glory of human perfection will be revealed and made manifest.  NAUGHT BUT
THE CELESTIAL POTENCY OF THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH RULETH AND TRANSCENDETH THE
REALITIES OF ALL THINGS, IS CAPABLE OF HARMONIZING THE DIVERGENT THOUGHTS,
SENTIMENTS, IDEAS AND CONVICTIONS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN. 
(Shoghi Effendi:  World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 42)***[emphasis
added]


sure. 

lets all get down to a sceptical approach and throw
away all trust and faith. do you know Paul Lample
personally or anybody on the ruhi institute in
colombia?

Maybe then the world will change 

you have to be careful. Because this post in my
opinion is slanderous. 


janine van rooij
dublin, ireland

--- Steve Cooney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been
 shut out of the process.
 It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you
 know, is not an elected
 institution.
 
 Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that
 is that one of the
 principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is
 Palabra Publications which is
 associated with Paul Lample who is one of the
 staunchest supporters and
 promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I
 wonder too if there are
 royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali
 Colombia. And there are
 also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc
 with other materials.
 And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection
 there, who is another
 strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is,
 would put the Ruhi
 curriculum materials in the public domain in a
 digital format and put any
 potential real or imagined conflict of interest
 beyond reproach.
 
 Cheers,
 Steve Cooney.
 
 
 
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RE: ruhi in ireland