subject:"Re\\\: I Apologize"


Bart Busschots wrote:

What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore?


Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the 
question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal 
attacks. The question is:


Why did Struts development stagnate?

You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because 
of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less 
and less competitive with other things in the same space.


This whole thing has led to a so-called merger with one of the more 
prominent competitors, Webwork. The term merger is (deliberately) 
misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache incubator, 
*is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have recognized that 
the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course, if they themselves 
recognize this, then the premise of the above question, that Struts 
development did in fact stagnate, is not in dispute by anybody.


The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a 
distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal attacks. 
And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri Yandell did 
recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who posed this 
question, was engaging in personal attacks.



All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone 
totally belly up. 


This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate question, 
people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one group of 
people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up with mud 
all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the real 
mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an effective 
distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and so forth.


There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts 
user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late 
rather than being helpful like it used to be. 


I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political 
content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose any 
more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow 
technical posts that don't interest you.


The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and 
others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at 
which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's quite 
illuminating.


This is not helping 
struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list. 


I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The topic 
of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow technical 
point in order to be of interest to Struts users.


Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow 
technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a 
few are.


What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a lot 
of people who don't quite understand what open source software is about. 
I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but they have 
a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders who write this 
stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go pick it up and 
use it.


The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the 
developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give 
feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as well. 
There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who initiate 
the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody should be 
listening to mere users.


I think these kinds of attitudes have been a factor that led to the 
stagnation.



I'm not saying the converstaion shouldn't be had, but I don't need it 
swamping my mailbox every day for weeks on end.


If this list doesn't revert to some level of sensability soon I'll just 
un-subscribe and TBH I very much doubt I'll be the first or the last to go.


Bart, I have just checked one thing, I was curious about it. You have 
written a total of 8 messages on this list. 2 of the 8 messages have 
been dedicated to decrying the existence of this discussion.


Of the remaining 6 posts, I don't see you helping anybody out. The one 
exception *might* be this post.


http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/121858

But that is not exactly an extensive record of extending yourself to 
help anybody.


But basically, aside from that one and the two other posts decrying this 
thread, you simply ask some narrow technical question when you need some 
help and some good samaritan helps you. Well, in short, Bart, you seem 
to be one of the many people who takes and gives nothing back. That's 
normal, that's most people in this open source world.


However, to be such a person and then be threatening to unsubscribe is 
rather silly, I think.


Anyway, since you asked what the question was, I told you. Do

Re: I Apologize


Henri Yandell wrote:

On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
to retaliate with much the same approach.


You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by retaliate with
much the same approach? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing
what I did at some point?

When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an
email by any name but my own?



I mean the same style of approach, rather than details. 


Methinks you are trying to weasel out. :-(

The details in question involve posting private correspondence to a 
public list, spoofing identities. Also, there is a continual pattern of 
people responding to messages with personal insults and making no 
attempt to engage in legitimate debate.


These are not little details that can be abstracted away unless your 
intent is to mislead and deceive. My messages have always focused on 
legitimate arguments and debate. To abstract away with this same style 
of approach line seems basically mendacious.


So, Henri, I'd like you to retract the above statement, the stuff about 
how the people engaging in these attacks against me were retaliating 
with the same approach. It constitutes a very unworthy attempt on your 
part to distort the truth and misprepresent what has been happening. I 
read this several times and I consider it to be such a distortion of the 
truth that you owe me an apology.


Now, if you still maintain that behavior of mine has been broadly 
comparable to this James Mitchell posting private email or Rick 
Reumann's lame spoof or even Larry Measors's juvenile butt-monkey post 
with no attempts to say anything legitimate, then please produce such 
examples. I will make it very easy for you. Every single message I have 
posted here up to this point in the conversation can be found here:


http://revusky.com/strutsmessages.txt

The stuff I wrote is clearly distinct from the quoted material by the 
usual convention. The quoted material begins with , right? The quoted 
material is necessary for context, of course.


It's a straight text file, so you can simply point out line numbers, if 
need be.


I submit to you that I have never engaged in this kind of personal 
attack. I have said sharp things to people, but they were appropriate -- 
or at the very least understandable -- in the context of a legitimate, 
perhaps heated debate. If this is not so, in your opinion, provide the 
line numbers.


Otherwise, this stuff about how I did the same things to these people 
that they are doing, you have to retract it because it's not true.





If someone
enters the conversation with a perceived aggression, retaliating with
the same aggression is going to get you nowhere other than the warmth
generated by our combined cpus, network cards and the wonder of
adrenalin bursts.


Here is the same mendacious discourse: the same aggression etcetera.

You are clearly implying that I have done the same things these people 
have done. This is not true.




It takes a 5-second reply to make a flamewar, it takes a 5 minute
reply to avoid one.



Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need
to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you
there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth.
Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that
does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like.

Also, to be saying: I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad
guy could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of
nudge, nudge, wink, wink. I really hope that wasn't your intention.



I don't like JR's style, but I'm not going to give up my own style in
reacting to the email.


Well, if a key component of your style involves mendacity, I think you 
really ought to find some other style, not necessarily adopting my 
style, but simply a style that incorporates a respect for the truth.


Again, I provide you everything I ever wrote on this list.

http://revusky.com/strutsmessages.txt

If you want to claim that I engage in ad-hominem attacks like these 
people, back up what you say. I don't think you can.


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

P.S. In your opinion, why did Struts development stagnate?




As a general opinion aimed at everyone:

[all]
Ranting, moving between private/public threads, spoofing and joking
without it being very obvious [that's why we have the smilies, use
'em] are of no value to the community, it's something an individual
does to neutralize the emotion and adrenalin - and it harms your own
position within the community.

Take time over replies, take time over the original emails (don't just
do a braindump and send, that helps nobody),

Re: I Apologize


Karsten Krieg wrote:

Karsten, for a response to your points below, I direct you to my 
response to Bart Busschots in this same thread. You may consider that 
this is also response to you.


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/



Guys,

Struts is being used, even 1.x. People are asking questions about their
problems and do's and don'ts. They (at least including me) don't want to
see and hear you all acting like some pubertal teenagers fighting about
whatever.

Stop shouting at each other, take this discussion to the developer list and
for Christ sake stop being SOOO nerdy.

Statistics for the last two weeks:
Irrelevant flaming at each other: 380
User questions asked and answered: 591

Think about that.
Regards
Karsten Krieg

OMG, hopefully I've not feed the trolls...

Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am 29.03.2006 07:51:37:



Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent.  Do you recognize at all that


your


points have no logic or sense to them?  Don't you care if they are


logical?




On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?

On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every


chance


to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.


OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
say this after a personal attack.



And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some


kind


of moral equivalence out of this.


...then follow it with another...



Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral


relativism


and other sophistry in college.


...and another.

This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from


bizzarro


world.

I see two courses of action for you Jon:

If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
training on the Next Big Thing.

If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.

But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).

Larry

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--
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
~Dakota Jack~



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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-29 Thread netsql

I have been on this list since '00 and this is the fastest they have 
been releasing.
Thanks for the fast pace devs. (I do not mean to be sarcastic, I do 
think the pace is quite fast).



.V



Why did Struts development stagnate?




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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-29 Thread Bart Busschots


Jonathan Revusky wrote:


Bart Busschots wrote:


What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore?



Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the 
question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal 
attacks. The question is:


Why did Struts development stagnate?

You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because 
of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less 
and less competitive with other things in the same space.


This whole thing has led to a so-called merger with one of the more 
prominent competitors, Webwork. The term merger is (deliberately) 
misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache 
incubator, *is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have 
recognized that the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course, 
if they themselves recognize this, then the premise of the above 
question, that Struts development did in fact stagnate, is not in 
dispute by anybody.


The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a 
distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal 
attacks. And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri 
Yandell did recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who 
posed this question, was engaging in personal attacks.


Indeed  and that is probably not a healthy thing, however, going on 
and on and on about it for weeks on end is not actually getting us 
anywhere. The question has been asked (and asked and asked .) 
and it is clear that no answer is coming. There is no point in hammering 
on about it anymore IMO. All it is doing is annoying people and driving 
people away from Struts.


All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone 
totally belly up. 



This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate 
question, people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one 
group of people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up 
with mud all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the 
real mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an 
effective distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and 
so forth.


There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts user and I find 
that this list has become a pure annoyance of late rather than being 
helpful like it used to be. 



I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political 
content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose 
any more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow 
technical posts that don't interest you.


I spend more time deleting posts than I do reading posts and I'm sure 
I'm missing good stuff too that is accidently getting nuked along with 
the continued rantings and ravings on this one topic. This same topic 
has now been re-hashed over and over again under many titles. It's just 
pointless. The more email people get on this topic the LESS attention 
they will pay to it. Hence, the longer this keeps up the less anyone 
will care whether or not you ever get the answer you want.


The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and 
others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at 
which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's 
quite illuminating.


This is not helping struts. This kind of conversation should not be 
on the main users list. 



I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The 
topic of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow 
technical point



in order to be of interest to Struts users.


It may have BEEN legitimate traffic but it has become nothing more than 
an annoyance and a disstraction at this stage. It is not enlightening 
anyone anymore.




Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow 
technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a 
few are.


This is true but those narrow threads tend to be short and to the point. 
Almost all signal and almost no noise. They also serve as a great 
resource for others in the future.




What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a 
lot of people who don't quite understand what open source software is 
about. I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but 
they have a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders 
who write this stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go 
pick it up and use it.


The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the 
developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give 
feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as 
well. There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who 
initiate the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody 
should be listening to mere users.


Well I'm not one of those people. I have a very clear understanding

Re: I Apologize

2006-03-29 Thread Larry Meadors

What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up.

I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you.

Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white
suits gave you.

:-)

Larry


On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent.  Do you recognize at all that your
 points have no logic or sense to them?  Don't you care if they are logical?




 On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?

 On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
  to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.

 OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
 debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
 say this after a personal attack.

  And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
  of moral equivalence out of this.

 ...then follow it with another...

  Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
  and other sophistry in college.

 ...and another.

 This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
 world.

 I see two courses of action for you Jon:

 If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
 something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
 ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
 you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
 training on the Next Big Thing.

 If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
 about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
 smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
 can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.

 But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).

 Larry

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 --
 You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
 ~Dakota Jack~


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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-29 Thread DGraham

Ignore them.  Both DakotaJackAss and Jonathan Revulsion thrive on what 
they perceive as inflammatory responses.  There is no use responding to 
anything they post, because they never stop and ALWAYS reply to anything 
you send their way.

-Dennis



Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
03/29/2006 10:01 AM
Please respond to
Struts Users Mailing List user@struts.apache.org


To
Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc
Struts Users Mailing List user@struts.apache.org
Subject
Re: I Apologize






What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up.

I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you.

Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white
suits gave you.

:-)

Larry


On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent.  Do you recognize at all that 
your
 points have no logic or sense to them?  Don't you care if they are 
logical?




 On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?

 On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
  to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.

 OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
 debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
 say this after a personal attack.

  And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some 
kind
  of moral equivalence out of this.

 ...then follow it with another...

  Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral 
relativism
  and other sophistry in college.

 ...and another.

 This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
 world.

 I see two courses of action for you Jon:

 If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
 something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
 ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
 you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
 training on the Next Big Thing.

 If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
 about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
 smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
 can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.

 But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).

 Larry

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  To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 --
 You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its 
back.
 ~Dakota Jack~


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Re: I Apologize


Michael Jouravlev wrote:

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
code. The Struts developers don't even think that.



Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
this ;-)


Well, Michael, there's a saying that goes something like this:

When the pope tells you there's a God, he's just doing his job. When he 
comes out and says there is no God, then maybe he's on to something.


If Jason and Patrick and other Webwork people sing the praises of 
Webwork, they are also just doing their job. It's hardly surprising. 
Also, if the Struts people say Struts is great and work on Struts, that 
is hardly worthy of much comment either.


However, when the Struts developers say they don't want to work on the 
Struts codebase any more and just bring in the Webwork codebase and work 
on that, well... this, unlike the previous cases, is really a rather 
interesting invent, maybe not quite so much as the pope declaring 
himself an atheist. But I can say that when I heard about the 
Struts/Webwork thing it came as a great surprise to me.


It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the two 
things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people should 
be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a tooth 
pulled. So if they say it...


But also, it leads to the question of why Struts was not able to stay 
competitive with Webwork. Struts development clearly did stagnate. There 
is no getting around this.


I got into this whole discussion originally by making certain comments 
about open-source project management practices. I was actually then 
shocked by the rather know-it-all tone of people like Craig McClanahan 
and Ted Husted. Both simply responded to these questions as in: Here at 
ASF, we do it like this. I wrote a moderately sharp response, first to 
Craig here:


http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/123265

It has been suggested that this was an example of me being extremely 
rude to Craig. I have reread the message and I don't think so. While it 
may cause people discomfort, it is perfectly legitimate and reasonable 
to suggest that people who themselves failed to keep their project 
up-to-date with the state of the art, should take a much more humble 
approach to these questions. That was the overall thrust of the message 
I have link above. The above-linked message was a reasoned reply that 
was not the kind of rabid froth-at-the-mouth personal attack like I got 
subjected to subsequently.




I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both good
code?


Well, as I said, that the Struts developers decline to work on their 
codebase and bring in Webwork has some inescapable implications about 
the relative quality of those 2 things. It has been accepted basically 
that Webwork is better. However, those aren't the only two such 
projects. There are actually lots of web application frameworks. Some of 
them could well be better than Webwork. Have you evaluated Stripes yourself?


Oh, and by the way, Michael, in your opinion, why did Struts development 
stagnate?


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/




Michael.



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Re: I Apologize


Larry Meadors wrote:

What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up.


Larry, I already refuted this complex argument of yours in my post 
entitled Debate and Free Speech 101.


I pointed out that criticizing U.S. policy in Iraq does not obligate the 
person criticizing to go to Iraq himself and resolve the problems.


It is also silly to suggest that when the Struts 1.x codebase has become 
so technically obsolescent that the Struts developers themselves don't 
want to work on it, that I should do so.


The question of why development on that codebase stagnated is quite 
appropriate. If you don't care or don't have an opinion on that topic, 
then just don't participate in the discussion, but don't tell other 
people what to do.




I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you.


It's not complex logic evading anybody. It's simply that you are 
trotting out a logical fallacy.


In any case, as regards telling _me_ to put up or shut up, you are 
talking to somebody who has made significant contributions to this 
application space.


To the best of my knowledge, you have made no comparable contributions. 
This really takes a lot of gall on your part.


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/



Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white
suits gave you.

:-)

Larry


On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent.  Do you recognize at all that your
points have no logic or sense to them?  Don't you care if they are logical?




On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?

On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.


OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
say this after a personal attack.



And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
of moral equivalence out of this.


...then follow it with another...



Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
and other sophistry in college.


...and another.

This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
world.

I see two courses of action for you Jon:

If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
training on the Next Big Thing.

If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.

But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).

Larry

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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-29 Thread Dave Newton

Jonathan Revusky wrote:
 [...] but don't tell other people what to do.

Dave



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Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread Joe Germuska


At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the 
two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people 
should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a 
tooth pulled. So if they say it...


Here you ascribe an outlook on things to the Struts people which 
assumes that your motivations are theirs.


Frankly, this is inaccurate for me.  I see open source software as 
cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.


I think Niall's answer to the question why did Struts development 
stagnate is pretty much what I would say.  I'm not doing this for 
bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare 
time.  I contribute when I can.  If it helps anyone,  that's great. 
As far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone.


Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. 
As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to 
carry on WebWork under its own name, etc.  So perhaps there is 
another group of developers whose motivations are not what you 
personally might guess they are.


Joe

--
Joe Germuska
[EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://blog.germuska.com


You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and
even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed.  Try something new.
-- Robert Moog

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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)


Joe Germuska wrote:

At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:

It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the 
two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people 
should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a 
tooth pulled. So if they say it...



Here you ascribe an outlook on things to the Struts people which 
assumes that your motivations are theirs.


Frankly, this is inaccurate for me.  I see open source software as 
cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.


LOL.

Well, Joe, wouldn't a casual observer say that you are taking this 
position because your team lost the technical competition?


Of course, you'd expect the losers to rationalize things saying it 
wasn't *really* a competition. But the fact remains that projects in the 
same space are competing to offer the most compelling solutions in their 
application space. It should be a friendly, good-natured rivalry, yes. 
But the logic and structure of this is one of competition.


It is a marketplace (more of ideas than money and so on) but a market of 
sorts nonetheless and a market system is something with a logic and 
structure of competition.


When Patrick and Jason wrote stuff like Struts really sucks and so on, 
there was a clear sense that this was a competitive situation and they 
were kind of throwing down the gauntlet.




I think Niall's answer to the question why did Struts development 
stagnate is pretty much what I would say.  I'm not doing this for 
bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare 
time.  I contribute when I can.  If it helps anyone,  that's great. As 
far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone.


Well, in this case, there is the additional problem that Struts and 
Webwork, while competing, as I say, were not competing on an even 
playing field. This is why the Webwork people, despite having a much 
better product, have far fewer users.


By bringing in Webwork and abandoning the existing Struts codebase, you 
are accepting that all the people who are currently using Struts would 
have been better off using Webwork. (I suggest that you not try to 
attack this point, because it looks unassailable.)


So your assertion that it hasn't hurt anyone is quite debatable. By 
leveraging the extra placement and visibility advantages of ASF to 
promote an inferior body of work, you have been breathing the oxygen of 
an innovative project that really was doing the real work of pushing 
forward the state of the art.




Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. As 
far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to carry 
on WebWork under its own name, etc.  So perhaps there is another group 
of developers whose motivations are not what you personally might guess 
they are.


Well, they've made a Faustian sort of deal in order to get more 
publicity for their work.


But if you think these guys like Patrick and Jason aren't ego-driven, 
surely you're kidding yourself. Just as you'd be kidding yourself if you 
think Craig, say, isn't extremely ego-driven. None of these people, as 
far as I can see, make the slightest attempt even to hide it.


Of course, when the ego-driven people are forced to admit that their 
work was inferior, then sure, they can then say that this isn't really a 
competition, and they don't mind because they don't have egos and so on.


But, Joe, I think that, most poeple, in their heart of hearts, don't 
believe this kind of line. It's a bunch of politically correct drivel 
really. Get real.


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/



Joe




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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread Joe Germuska


At 7:09 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:

Joe Germuska wrote:

At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:

It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, 
the two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts 
people should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as 
to have a tooth pulled. So if they say it...



Here you ascribe an outlook on things to the Struts people which 
assumes that your motivations are theirs.


Frankly, this is inaccurate for me.  I see open source software as 
cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.


LOL.

Well, Joe, wouldn't a casual observer say that you are taking this 
position because your team lost the technical competition?


Some might; some might not.  Whether or not they said it wouldn't 
mean it was correct.


Of course, you'd expect the losers to rationalize things saying it 
wasn't *really* a competition.


No.  You would expect this.  I would not.

So your assertion that it hasn't hurt anyone is quite debatable. 
By leveraging the extra placement and visibility advantages of ASF 
to promote an inferior body of work, you have been breathing the 
oxygen of an innovative project that really was doing the real work 
of pushing forward the state of the art.


See, I am not doing any of these things.  I'm just a person who has a 
job to do, and I choose to work with others to help me get this job 
done.  Everything else you have written is your own window dressing 
on the situation.


But if you think these guys like Patrick and Jason aren't 
ego-driven, surely you're kidding yourself. Just as you'd be kidding 
yourself if you think Craig, say, isn't extremely ego-driven. None 
of these people, as far as I can see, make the slightest attempt 
even to hide it.


Frankly, I don't care what their motivations are.

But, Joe, I think that, most poeple, in their heart of hearts, don't 
believe this kind of line. It's a bunch of politically correct 
drivel really. Get real.


I just thought I should point out that for all of your self-assured 
declarations about how the world works, you are not necessarily 
right.  You can try to speak for most people, but you don't speak 
for me.


Really,
Joe

--
Joe Germuska
[EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://blog.germuska.com


You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and
even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed.  Try something new.
-- Robert Moog

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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread erikweber

Hello Joe. Haven't seen a post from you in a while. Got me thinking. I just 
wanted to say, for the record, you and Niall and your fellow team members rock!

I have been a subscriber to this list for years. I don't use Struts anymore 
because I don't author HTML/HTTP browser applications anymore. So many of you 
may not know who I am because I haven't posted in a while. There was a time 
when I volunteered a lot answering questions on this list though, and of course 
asking a ton of questions as a user.

Struts, WebWork, Spring, scriplets, tags, framework, no framework, J2EE, no 
J2EE, I always tried not to get caught up in the implementation details (sounds 
funny for a programmer to say such a thing). Frameworks, methods and practices 
come and go as do other work trends. HTTP/HTML is only one possible combination 
of a large number available in the seven-layer network. To stake too much on 
any of this is to limit yourself as a programmer.

What's important never changes -- it's the people! (Oh yeah, lookup tables 
remain important too, I guess. ;) ) And the job of a programmer is nothing more 
than to make an electronic device do what he, or his customer, wants it to do.

So, I just wanted to say, to Joe, Niall, Hubert, Craig, James and the others 
(please don't think because I didn't mention your name that I don't appreciate 
you -- I remember many others, developers as well as users), Struts was a great 
framework to me because you guys helped your users with a professional and 
friendly attitude, even when we asked the same old dumb questions again and 
again. You helped me and many others get our jobs done and put food on the 
table.

Whether Struts or WebWork or any other framework is here today or tomorrow 
isn't that important. You guys will still be around, plugging away, answering 
your users' questions and treating others with respect and dignity, and making 
whatever project with which you are associated a winner.

Keep up the great work.

Sincerely,
Erik




-Original Message-
From: Joe Germuska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mar 29, 2006 11:26 AM
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the 
two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people 
should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a 
tooth pulled. So if they say it...

Here you ascribe an outlook on things to the Struts people which 
assumes that your motivations are theirs.

Frankly, this is inaccurate for me.  I see open source software as 
cooperative, not competitive, even between projects.

I think Niall's answer to the question why did Struts development 
stagnate is pretty much what I would say.  I'm not doing this for 
bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare 
time.  I contribute when I can.  If it helps anyone,  that's great. 
As far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone.

Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. 
As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to 
carry on WebWork under its own name, etc.  So perhaps there is 
another group of developers whose motivations are not what you 
personally might guess they are.

Joe

-- 
Joe Germuska
[EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://blog.germuska.com

You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and
even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed.  Try something new.
   -- Robert Moog

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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread Al Eridani

On 3/29/06, Joe Germuska [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process.

The way it has been described here it looks to me more like a takeover
than a merger.

 As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to
 carry on WebWork under its own name, etc.  So perhaps there is
 another group of developers whose motivations are not what you
 personally might guess they are.

That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their
little-known framework is re-branded as Struts.

Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and
WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world.
It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you.

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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread Craig McClanahan

On 3/29/06, Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 3/29/06, Joe Germuska [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process.

 The way it has been described here it looks to me more like a takeover
 than a merger.


You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the
describing that you are referring to.

Craig

Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread Larry Meadors

On 3/29/06, Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their
 little-known framework is re-branded as Struts.

 Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and
 WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world.
 It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you.

Seriously, this seems like a win-win.

Struts gets a better technical design, WW gets some recognition and a
good brand.

The users get the best of both worlds.

I don't really see what all the hullabaloo is about really...

Larry

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Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-29 Thread Dakota Jack

The hullabaloo, Larry, is about the stability of the platform with a bunch
of committers who don't appear to be up to the job and who are not willing
to look at what went wrong.  The stability of a platform like Struts is a
big deal.  This is a time to decide to go with or to get off the Struts
wagon.  How the committers respond has a lot to do with this.

On 3/29/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 3/29/06, Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their
  little-known framework is re-branded as Struts.
 
  Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and
  WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world.
  It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you.

 Seriously, this seems like a win-win.

 Struts gets a better technical design, WW gets some recognition and a
 good brand.

 The users get the best of both worlds.

 I don't really see what all the hullabaloo is about really...

 Larry

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RE: I apologize for maintaining human standards

2006-03-28 Thread Rakesh.Bhat


That is a great idea to have new ego group.
All members provide your vote.

Kind regards,
 
Rakesh Bhat 
PrimeSourcing(tm) 
The Global IT Services  business from i-flex - Add Value Reduce Risk
www.iflexsolutions.com/services/services.asp
i-flex solutions limited - Bangalore
Phone : +91(080) 5759-6873
Email :  Rakesh.Bhat@ iflexsolutions.com
 

-Original Message-
From: Quinn Stone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:30 PM
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: I apologize for maintaining human standards
Importance: Low

Larry Meadors, Rick Reumann, recently departed Jester Moose. Thank you.
 
Jonathon Revusky, Dakota Jack, James Mitchell, and anyone else who has
really
got their knickers in a knot over these threads. C'mon. I'm tired of
reading
this stuff. My problem is I don't know how to dev/null a thread, I
guess. Or
even what it means.
 
I think maybe we should have user for users, dev for developers, and
a new
ego for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of
saturation...
 
Q



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Re: I apologize for maintaining human standards

2006-03-28 Thread David Delbecq

Quinn Stone a écrit :

 
I think maybe we should have user for users, dev for developers, and a new
ego for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of saturation...
 
Q

  

+1

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Re: I apologize for maintaining human standards


Quinn Stone wrote:

Larry Meadors, Rick Reumann, recently departed Jester Moose. Thank you.


What are you thanking them for? Let's rewind a sec here. James Mitchell 
posted a private message to this list that I wrote several days ago when 
I was angry. He posted the private message in an attempt to re-initiate 
a flame-war that was already dead. The first two people you are thanking 
wrote a bunch of insulting provocative stuff in order to pour oil on the 
re-ignited flame war.


I earlier made political comments of a nature that they don't like. 
Instead of engaging in legitimate debate, they want to start a character 
assasination.


 
Jonathon Revusky, Dakota Jack, James Mitchell, and anyone else who has really
got their knickers in a knot over these threads. 



C'mon. I'm tired of reading
this stuff. 


Then don't read it any more, for crying out loud. Why do you guys start 
with this dishonest I'm being victimized stuff.


And if you are, then don't write a thank you note to the people who are 
victimizing you by filling up your inbox with personal attacks. I 
wrote that message to James Mitchell *privately*. I didn't impose it on 
everybody else. You have these other guys to thank for reading nasty 
personal attacks on the public list.




My problem is I don't know how to dev/null a thread, I guess. Or
even what it means.


At this point, I don't know how much of something like this is honest 
ignorance, and how much is some twisted sense of gamesmanship.


 
I think maybe we should have user for users, dev for developers, and a new

ego for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of saturation...
 
Q





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Re: I Apologize


Paul Benedict wrote:

Sorry Jonathan this is happening to you. It's really inappropriate
what was done. If somebody doesn't like you or your opinions, this 
isn't a way to treat another person regardless, if this is really a spoof. 
But you did come down hard on some people and I think, while it is 
no excuse to the spooffer, it may have triggered some malevolence 
I'd rather avoid too.


Well, of course. Who wouldn't want to avoid this?

What you're saying, Paul, seems incredibly unworthy. You are putting 
blame for this on me, the victim, because I should have known well 
enough to censor myself, and not express certain legitimate political 
opinions. That, presumably, would be the way to avoid having people 
start with the character assasination tactics.


Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance 
to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.


And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind 
of moral equivalence out of this.


Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism 
and other sophistry in college.

´
Regards,

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/


 -- Paul


--- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Larry Meadors wrote:

Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?

I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at 
identity spoofing.


Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org 
systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name 
to them. This could get to be a serious matter.


Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 
days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I 
mean, this is just too much.


You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in 
my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess 
that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.


This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep 
developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing 
project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather 
than do your own work.


This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized 
that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on 
http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one 
of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.


So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no 
sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to 
get your ahead around what is going on this application space.




I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.

I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me 
lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls 
ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and 
take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on 
Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is


WebWork.

I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, 
but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all 
did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really 
wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the 
FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. 
All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.


Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and  
Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha


Regards,

Jonathan 

Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.  



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Re: I Apologize

Jonathan Revusky wrote:
 Don't do it again, Rick.

Or else!

Dave



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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Larry Meadors

LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?

On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
 to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.

OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
say this after a personal attack.

 And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
 of moral equivalence out of this.

...then follow it with another...

 Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
 and other sophistry in college.

...and another.

This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world.

I see two courses of action for you Jon:

If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
training on the Next Big Thing.

If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.

But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).

Larry

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Re: I Apologize

Larry Meadors wrote:
 LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
   

Who has the time?

As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
the subject of my first Markov chaining program.

Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often
couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by
the Markov chaining program.

Neither, apparently, could people on the list.

Dave



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OT: (Re: I Apologize)


Dave Newton wrote:

List members. Here I am sorry for the off-topic. Dave Newton seems to be 
insinuating something -- though it's not 100% clear what.



Larry Meadors wrote:


LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
 



Who has the time?

As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
the subject of my first Markov chaining program.


What Markov chaining program? What are you talking about?



Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often
couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by
the Markov chaining program.

Neither, apparently, could people on the list.


You're alluding to stuff that happened 3 years ago or so. It gets vague 
in one's memory, but you seem to be babbling. Just like in this case, 
everybody on that list knew which posts were written by me and which 
ones weren't.


Why are you inventing a bunch of nonsense about what happened then and 
there and posting it here and now -- 3 years later on a separate list?


You know, there's no guarantee that anything you write on a public forum 
is useful or interesting to everybody there. That is why I find 
ridiculous this idea that the presence of threads that some people 
aren't interested in is such a problem.


On the other hand, Dave, really maybe you should only post when you do 
have something to say. I think, by that basic standard, your last few 
posts have definitely been superfluous.


Jonathan



Dave



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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Henri Yandell

On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
 incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
 truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
 really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
 have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me. Are
 you scared?  The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
 (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
 dudes stealing your lunch money?).

Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
years ago, and it still is today.

Hen

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Re: OT: (Re: I Apologize)

2006-03-28 Thread Troll Alert

Members of list:

troll  /dev/null

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls

Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Jason King


Folks,
Perhaps its time to table all the I apologize, has struts reached its 
limits, are the rules for becoming a committer fair etc threads to 
bed for while.  I honestly suspect most of you have reached the point 
where you're yelling at each other not talking to each other, so perhaps 
letting it all simmer for a month or so might be productive.
At the risk of starting a new flame-fest I don't think whatever (if 
anything) ails Struts is likely to be terminal in the next 4 weeks.

Henri Yandell wrote:


On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me. Are
you scared?  The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
dudes stealing your lunch money?).
   



Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
years ago, and it still is today.

Hen

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Re: OT: (Re: I Apologize)

Jonathan Revusky wrote:
 As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
 the subject of my first Markov chaining program.
 What Markov chaining program? What are you talking about?

Uh... I'm talking about the first time I wrote a Markov chaining
program, just like I said.

 You're alluding to stuff that happened 3 years ago or so. 

Really? I thought it was longer ago than that... must have blocked it out.

 Why are you inventing a bunch of nonsense about what happened then and
 there and posting it here and now -- 3 years later on a separate list?

Because I love listening to you spray.

And it increases the accuracy of my Markov chaining program.

Although your love letter to James threw it off because (I guess) you
only cuss people out via private email. I'll have to re-run everything
without that one to avoid inaccuracy.

I gotta admit, though, it was priceless, and I still get all warm and
fuzzy when I think about it.

 On the other hand, Dave, really maybe you should only post when you do
 have something to say. I think, by that basic standard, your last few
 posts have definitely been superfluous.

*rotflmao*

Oh! You were serious?! Gosh, Jonathon, I really do appreciate the advice.

Dave Kettle Newton



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Re: I Apologize

Henri Yandell wrote:
 Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
 years ago, and it still is today.
   

I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
deliberately, and obviously, a joke.

Heck, I even thought they were funny 20 years ago, and back then we had
to UUCP our newsfeed over 1200 and 2400 baud modems and it took longer.

Dave



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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Henri Yandell

On 3/28/06, Dave Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Henri Yandell wrote:
  Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
  years ago, and it still is today.
 

 I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
 deliberately, and obviously, a joke.

I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
the next email.

I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)

However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
to retaliate with much the same approach.

That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.

Hen

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Re: I Apologize

Henri Yandell wrote:
 However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
 nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
 conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
 to retaliate with much the same approach.

 That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.
   

You're absolutely right :)

I'm done!

Dave



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Re: I Apologize


Henri Yandell wrote:

On 3/28/06, Dave Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Henri Yandell wrote:


Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
years ago, and it still is today.



I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
deliberately, and obviously, a joke.



I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
the next email.

I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)

However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
to retaliate with much the same approach.


You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by retaliate with 
much the same approach? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing 
what I did at some point?


When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an 
email by any name but my own?


Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need 
to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you 
there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth. 
Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that 
does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like.


Also, to be saying: I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad 
guy could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of 
nudge, nudge, wink, wink. I really hope that wasn't your intention.


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/



That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.

Hen



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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Henri Yandell

On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Henri Yandell wrote:
  On 3/28/06, Dave Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Henri Yandell wrote:
 
 Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
 years ago, and it still is today.
 
 
 I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
 deliberately, and obviously, a joke.
 
 
  I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
  the next email.
 
  I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
  you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
  the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)
 
  However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
  nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
  conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
  to retaliate with much the same approach.

 You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by retaliate with
 much the same approach? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing
 what I did at some point?

 When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an
 email by any name but my own?

I mean the same style of approach, rather than details. If someone
enters the conversation with a perceived aggression, retaliating with
the same aggression is going to get you nowhere other than the warmth
generated by our combined cpus, network cards and the wonder of
adrenalin bursts.

It takes a 5-second reply to make a flamewar, it takes a 5 minute
reply to avoid one.

 Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need
 to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you
 there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth.
 Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that
 does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like.

 Also, to be saying: I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad
 guy could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of
 nudge, nudge, wink, wink. I really hope that wasn't your intention.

I don't like JR's style, but I'm not going to give up my own style in
reacting to the email.

As a general opinion aimed at everyone:

[all]
Ranting, moving between private/public threads, spoofing and joking
without it being very obvious [that's why we have the smilies, use
'em] are of no value to the community, it's something an individual
does to neutralize the emotion and adrenalin - and it harms your own
position within the community.

Take time over replies, take time over the original emails (don't just
do a braindump and send, that helps nobody), de-escalate rather than
escalate. _Especially_ when you are talking about emotional issues
like brand and community. What works for a technical argument does not
work for a social argument.

This is just an opinion. I've had just the one tiny patch applied to
Struts, so have not contributed to this community. Take it how you
want.
[/all]

Hen

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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Bart Busschots


Larry Meadors wrote:


LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?

On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
   



OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
say this after a personal attack.

 


And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
of moral equivalence out of this.
   



...then follow it with another...

 


Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
and other sophistry in college.
   



...and another.

This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world.

I see two courses of action for you Jon:

If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
training on the Next Big Thing.

If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.

But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).

Larry
 


*round of applause for this man*

Well said!

Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check 
it out, fix it and release it as your own
GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to 
fix it then we will all love

you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.

If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ... and 
talk more but you are not prepared to actually
do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else 
where you are not cluttering

up all our mailboxes.

I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is 
enough. Either shut up and do something
or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of 
this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm

alone in that.

Bart.


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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Michael Jouravlev

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
 code. The Struts developers don't even think that.

Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
this ;-)

I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both good
code?

Michael.

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Re: I Apologize

Dear  Veto Wanted,

Would you care to add anything of substance?  I have decided, until you
prove otherwise, that you simply are incapable of adult conversation.



On 3/28/06, Dave Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Larry Meadors wrote:
  LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
 

 Who has the time?

 As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was
 the subject of my first Markov chaining program.

 Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often
 couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by
 the Markov chaining program.

 Neither, apparently, could people on the list.

 Dave



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--
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
~Dakota Jack~

Re: I Apologize

People are supposed to stop trying to get a decent or any answer to a real
question because the Struts committers and their toadies turn it into a
flame war?  I see Jonathan as fairly calm under the circumstances and the
more he asks people to answer the question the goofier they become.  But,
there being goofy is hardly a reason to stop trying to get an answer.  I
would bet that if someone with any sense tried to answer the question things
would change quick.  I notice that NO ONE on the Struts PMC has tried to
answer the question.  Rather, they have tried to continue the ruse by
fanning the flames they say they hate.  This is not a fair suggestion,
Jason.  I think Jonathon and others, have a right to keep asking for an
answer until one is forthcoming and not have to stop trying to get one
because the toadies, Newton, Mitchell, etc. are excrementing.

On 3/28/06, Jason King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Folks,
 Perhaps its time to table all the I apologize, has struts reached its
 limits, are the rules for becoming a committer fair etc threads to
 bed for while.  I honestly suspect most of you have reached the point
 where you're yelling at each other not talking to each other, so perhaps
 letting it all simmer for a month or so might be productive.
 At the risk of starting a new flame-fest I don't think whatever (if
 anything) ails Struts is likely to be terminal in the next 4 weeks.
 Henri Yandell wrote:

 On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
 incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
 truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
 really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I
 would
 have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me.
 Are
 you scared?  The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
 (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
 dudes stealing your lunch money?).
 
 
 
 Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
 years ago, and it still is today.
 
 Hen
 
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--
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
~Dakota Jack~

Re: I Apologize

A breath of fresh air.  Thank you, Henri.

On 3/28/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 3/28/06, Dave Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Henri Yandell wrote:
   Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10
   years ago, and it still is today.
  
 
  I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was
  deliberately, and obviously, a joke.

 I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read
 the next email.

 I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if
 you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate
 the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :)

 However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us
 nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the
 conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not
 to retaliate with much the same approach.

 That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy.

 Hen

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--
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
~Dakota Jack~

Re: I Apologize

Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching.  Why don't YOU answer
the question, then, Bart?  It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be
arrogant at the same time.

On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Larry Meadors wrote:

 LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
 
 On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
 to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
 
 
 
 OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
 debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
 say this after a personal attack.
 
 
 
 And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind
 of moral equivalence out of this.
 
 
 
 ...then follow it with another...
 
 
 
 Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism
 and other sophistry in college.
 
 
 
 ...and another.
 
 This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro
 world.
 
 I see two courses of action for you Jon:
 
 If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
 something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
 ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
 you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
 training on the Next Big Thing.
 
 If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
 about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
 smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
 can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
 
 But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
 
 Larry
 
 
 *round of applause for this man*

 Well said!

 Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check
 it out, fix it and release it as your own
 GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to
 fix it then we will all love
 you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.

 If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ... and
 talk more but you are not prepared to actually
 do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else
 where you are not cluttering
 up all our mailboxes.

 I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is
 enough. Either shut up and do something
 or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of
 this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm
 alone in that.

 Bart.

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--
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
~Dakota Jack~

Re: I Apologize

Mahaul Jive Velcro,

You are not even close to anything that was actually discussed.  If you are
careful hanging around these straw men you are going to get one of those
itches the toadies on this list talk about scratching.  Why don't you just
answer the question?  Do you have an answer?  Why go down this route?  You
cannot blame people for getting a little peeoed at people who rant at a
legitimate question being wildly irrlevant (Craig) which encourages this
sort of drivel and nothing is done by the Struts leaders to encourage an
honest discussion of the failure of Struts.  Why not?  Would it be a bad
thing to find out what needs to be changed, other than the code?

On 3/28/06, Michael Jouravlev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
  code. The Struts developers don't even think that.

 Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
 Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
 preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
 this ;-)

 I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
 Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
 attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
 improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both good
 code?

 Michael.

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You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
~Dakota Jack~

Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Dion Gillard

Does WebWork2/SAF2 *require* Java5?

I know Stripes does, but it's not obvious anywhere on the webwork home page
about it's JDK/JRE requirements. It does say it fully supports Java5
annotations, but that doesn't preclude support for older JDKs.

On 3/29/06, Michael Jouravlev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good
  code. The Struts developers don't even think that.

 Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it.
 Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept
 preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to
 this ;-)

 I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and
 Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in
 attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to
 improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both good
 code?

 Michael.

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Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid
of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris

Re: I Apologize

2006-03-28 Thread Karsten Krieg

Guys,

Struts is being used, even 1.x. People are asking questions about their
problems and do's and don'ts. They (at least including me) don't want to
see and hear you all acting like some pubertal teenagers fighting about
whatever.

Stop shouting at each other, take this discussion to the developer list and
for Christ sake stop being SOOO nerdy.

Statistics for the last two weeks:
Irrelevant flaming at each other: 380
User questions asked and answered: 591

Think about that.
Regards
Karsten Krieg

OMG, hopefully I've not feed the trolls...

Dakota Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am 29.03.2006 07:51:37:

 Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent.  Do you recognize at all that
your
 points have no logic or sense to them?  Don't you care if they are
logical?



 On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
 
  On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every
chance
   to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
 
  OK, so what you are saying here is that these people could have
  debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
  say this after a personal attack.
 
   And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some
kind
   of moral equivalence out of this.
 
  ...then follow it with another...
 
   Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral
relativism
   and other sophistry in college.
 
  ...and another.
 
  This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from
bizzarro
  world.
 
  I see two courses of action for you Jon:
 
  If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
  something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
  ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
  you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
  training on the Next Big Thing.
 
  If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
  about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
  smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
  can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
 
  But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
 
  Larry
 
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 --
 You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.
 ~Dakota Jack~


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Re: I Apologize


In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.

jonathan revusky wrote:

I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.

I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me 
lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls 
ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and 
take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on 
Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.


I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, 
but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all 
did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really 
wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the 
FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. 
All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.


Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and  
Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha


Regards,

Jonathan 

Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.  



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Re: I Apologize

Larry Meadors wrote:

Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?

I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
identity spoofing.

Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
to them. This could get to be a serious matter.

Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
mean, this is just too much.

You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.

This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
than do your own work.

This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.

So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
get your ahead around what is going on this application space.

I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.

I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork.

I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.

Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
Struts users Drool!! Ha Ha

Regards,

Jonathan

Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.

-
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starting at 1cent;/min.

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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-27 Thread Paul Benedict

Sorry Jonathan this is happening to you. It's really inappropriate
what was done. If somebody doesn't like you or your opinions, this 
isn't a way to treat another person regardless, if this is really a spoof. 
But you did come down hard on some people and I think, while it is 
no excuse to the spooffer, it may have triggered some malevolence 
I'd rather avoid too. -- Paul

--- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Larry Meadors wrote:
 
 Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?
 
 I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at 
 identity spoofing.
 
 Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org 
 systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name 
 to them. This could get to be a serious matter.
 
 Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 
 days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I 
 mean, this is just too much.
 
 You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in 
 my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess 
 that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.
 
 This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep 
 developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing 
 project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather 
 than do your own work.
 
 This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.
 
 Jonathan Revusky
 --
 lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
 
 P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized 
 that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on 
 http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one 
 of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.
 
 So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no 
 sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to 
 get your ahead around what is going on this application space.
 
  I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
  
  I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me 
  lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the 
  girls 
  ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and 
  take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on 
  Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its 
  awesomness is
 WebWork.
  
  I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, 
  but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all 
  did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really 
  wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the 
  FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. 
  All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
  
  Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and  
  Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha
  
  Regards,
  
  Jonathan 
  
  Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.  
  
  
  -
  Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates 
  starting at
 1cent;/min.
 
 
 -
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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-27 Thread Brandon Goodin

Okay,

I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
you. I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.
Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.

On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
no harm was intended.

Cheers,
Brandon

P.S.  It wasn't me either. ;)

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Larry Meadors wrote:

 Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?

 I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
 identity spoofing.

 Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
 systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
 to them. This could get to be a serious matter.

 Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
 days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
 mean, this is just too much.

 You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
 my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
 that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.

 This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
 developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
 project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
 than do your own work.

 This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.

 Jonathan Revusky
 --
 lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

 P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
 that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
 http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
 of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.

 So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
 sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
 get your ahead around what is going on this application space.

  I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
 
  I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
  lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
  ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
  take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
  Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its 
  awesomness is WebWork.
 
  I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
  but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
  did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
  wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
  FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
  All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
 
  Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
  Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha
 
  Regards,
 
  Jonathan
 
  Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
 
 
  -
  Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates 
  starting at 1cent;/min.


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Re: I Apologize

Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are
barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words butt-monkey are
*nowhere* in that original email.

BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid
having battles of wits with unarmed opponents.

Larry


On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Larry Meadors wrote:

 Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?

 I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
 identity spoofing.

 Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
 systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
 to them. This could get to be a serious matter.

 Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
 days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
 mean, this is just too much.

 You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in
 my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess
 that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing.

 This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep
 developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing
 project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather
 than do your own work.

 This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.

 Jonathan Revusky
 --
 lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

 P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized
 that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on
 http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one
 of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it.

 So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no
 sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to
 get your ahead around what is going on this application space.

  I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.
 
  I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
  lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls
  ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and
  take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
  Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its 
  awesomness is WebWork.
 
  I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
  but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all
  did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really
  wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
  FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see.
  All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
 
  Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
  Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha
 
  Regards,
 
  Jonathan
 
  Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
 
 
  -
  Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates 
  starting at 1cent;/min.


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Re: I Apologize

Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me. Are
you scared?  The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
dudes stealing your lunch money?).

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.

 jonathan revusky wrote:
  I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior
 recently.
 
  I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
  lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the
 girls
  ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up
 and
  take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
  Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in
 its awesomness is WebWork.
 
  I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
  but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys
 all
  did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I
 really
  wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
  FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll
 see.
  All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
 
  Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
  Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha
 
  Regards,
 
  Jonathan
 
  Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
 
 
  -
  Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great
 rates starting at 1cent;/min.


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--
Rick

Re: I Apologize

Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!

Larry

PS:

To add insult to injury, you forgot the a there - It was supposed
to be *a* joke...so make that Way to go Rick, you illiterate
butt-monkey.


On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
 incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
 truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
 really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
 have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me. Are
 you scared?  The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
 (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
 dudes stealing your lunch money?).

 On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.
 
  jonathan revusky wrote:
   I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior
  recently.
  
   I  do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
   lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the
  girls
   ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up
  and
   take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
   Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in
  its awesomness is WebWork.
  
   I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome,
   but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys
  all
   did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I
  really
   wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
   FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll
  see.
   All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.
  
   Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
   Struts users Drool!!  Ha Ha
  
   Regards,
  
   Jonathan
  
   Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.
  
  
   -
   Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great
  rates starting at 1cent;/min.
 
 
  -
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 


 --
 Rick



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Re: I Apologize

On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!


It must be that nice Montana tan that you have.

--
Rick

Re: I Apologize

2006-03-27 Thread Hey Nony Moose

... and as I said in the other thread ... you *lucky bast%rds!*, we
floor level developers can't get away with such behavoiur.  you must
have *such* income security!  do you sell Amway on the side or something?

Larry Meadors wrote:

Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!

Larry

PS:

To add insult to injury, you forgot the a there - It was supposed
to be *a* joke...so make that Way to go Rick, you illiterate
butt-monkey.


On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me. Are
you scared?  The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
dudes stealing your lunch money?).

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this.

  


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Re: I Apologize

Larry Meadors wrote:

Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are
barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words butt-monkey are
*nowhere* in that original email.

Okay, I retract that. The google search Larry Measors struts the first
hit is www.tampajug.org

http://www.google.com/search?num=100hl=enhs=5LQclient=firefox-arls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialq=%22Larry+Meadors%22+strutsspell=1

A ping of the IP that the spoof was posted from reveals:

6532215hfc194.tampabay.res.rr.com [65.32.215.194]

So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic
butt-monkey post.

It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course,
but you didn't do this. :-)

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid
having battles of wits with unarmed opponents.

Larry

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Larry Meadors wrote:

Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?

I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
identity spoofing.

Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
to them. This could get to be a serious matter.

Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
mean, this is just too much.

This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently.

Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
Struts users Drool!! Ha Ha

Regards,

Jonathan

Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.

-
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starting at 1cent;/min.

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Re: I Apologize

Well, true, who can blame him, I mean...I am kinda dead sexy with the
March in Montana pallor.

Larry

On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME!


 It must be that nice Montana tan that you have.

 --
 Rick

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Re: I Apologize

Actually that's pretty funny. That shows how weak our Tampa JUG is:) Larry
speaks one time at it, and he becomes famous.

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Larry Meadors wrote:
Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are
barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words butt-monkey are
*nowhere* in that original email.

Okay, I retract that. The google search Larry Measors struts the first
hit is www.tampajug.org

http://www.google.com/search?num=100hl=enhs=5LQclient=firefox-arls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialq=%22Larry+Meadors%22+strutsspell=1

A ping of the IP that the spoof was posted from reveals:

6532215hfc194.tampabay.res.rr.com [65.32.215.194]

So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic
butt-monkey post.

It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course,
but you didn't do this. :-)

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid
having battles of wits with unarmed opponents.

Larry

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Larry Meadors wrote:

Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today?

I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at
identity spoofing.

Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org
systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name
to them. This could get to be a serious matter.

Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4
days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I
mean, this is just too much.

This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior
recently.

I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me
lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the
girls
ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up
and
take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on
Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in
its awesomness is WebWork.

I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly
awesome,
but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys
all
did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I
really
wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the
FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll
see.
All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome.

Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: WebWork rules! and
Struts users Drool!! Ha Ha

Regards,

Jonathan

Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia.

-
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1cent;/min.

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--
Rick

Re: I Apologize

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Larry Meadors wrote:
 So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic butt-monkey 
 post.

 It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course,
 but you didn't do this. :-)

Idiotic?! That was *FUNNY*...

Deplorable!? What?! I was just trying to fit in!

I optimistically thought Friday had come early...

Tomorrow is Tuesday? Dang..

:-D

Larry

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Re: I Apologize

Ouch.

On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Actually that's pretty funny. That shows how weak our Tampa JUG is:) Larry
 speaks one time at it, and he becomes famous.

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Re: I Apologize


Brandon Goodin wrote:

Okay,

I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
you.


I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm 
not so good at playing net detective. Touché.



I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.


You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.


Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.

On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
no harm was intended.


Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny. 
Did you think it was funny?


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/


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Re: I Apologize

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Brandon Goodin wrote:
  I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
  good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.

 You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.

Hahaha, thanks again Jon. I FEEL the love. :-D


  Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
 
  On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
  harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
  no harm was intended.

 Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
 Did you think it was funny?

I thought the signature was HILARIOUS! C'mon - Master of Freemarker
and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. -- that is good stuff!

 Jonathan Revusky
 --
 lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

Larry Meadors
--
Some dude working at home in his sweat pants

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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-27 Thread Hey Nony Moose

Jonathan Revusky wrote:

 Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very
 funny. Did you think it was funny?

BANG  thump ...
that was the sound of the Court Jester shooting himself ...

 Dead Moose


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Re: I Apologize

2006-03-27 Thread Brandon Goodin

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Brandon Goodin wrote:
  Okay,
 
  I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
  inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
  like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
  you.

 I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm
 not so good at playing net detective. Touché.

Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it
many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does
that make me a creep? ;-)


  I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
  good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.

 You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.

Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :)

  Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.
 
  On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
  harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
  no harm was intended.

 Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
 Did you think it was funny?

Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D


 Jonathan Revusky
 --
 lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/


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Re: I Apologize


Rick Reumann wrote:

Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an
incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and
truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to
really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would
have instead just posted something like Why don't you guys debate me. Are
you scared?  


Interesting. I never asked that question openly, I don't think. I think 
it's something you were wondering about maybe... :-)



The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof
(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and
dudes stealing your lunch money?).


Don't do it again, Rick.

As for this It's just an innocent joke stuff, we are not on a level of 
familiarity for you to take confidences like this.


Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/


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Re: I Apologize


Brandon Goodin wrote:

On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Brandon Goodin wrote:


Okay,

I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my
inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just
like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing
you.


I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm
not so good at playing net detective. Touché.



Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it
many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does
that make me a creep? ;-)


No. Probably everybody does it nowadays. Posting 4-day-old private 
messages to a public list in an attempt to re-ignite a flame war would 
make you a creep, though. But that was somebody else who did that.






I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a
good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you.


You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does.



Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :)



Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing.

On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather
harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure
no harm was intended.


Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny.
Did you think it was funny?



Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D


Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good 
code. The Struts developers don't even think that.








Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/


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Re: I Apologize