Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 22 Oct 2012, at 04:32, meekerdb wrote: On 10/21/2012 6:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And their very specific correlation with the physical brain states of sleep. Of course. But this is taken into account in the theoretical reasoning where we suppose the "brain state" are obtained by

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/21/2012 6:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And their very specific correlation with the physical brain states of sleep. Of course. But this is taken into account in the theoretical reasoning where we suppose the "brain state" are obtained by (immaterial) machine doing the computation at the

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 20 Oct 2012, at 22:09, meekerdb wrote: On 10/20/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Stephen, On 19 Oct 2012, at 19:44, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/19/2012 1:37 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Oct 2012, at 22:02, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/17 Alberto G. Corona 2012/1

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/20/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Stephen, On 19 Oct 2012, at 19:44, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/19/2012 1:37 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Oct 2012, at 22:02, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/17 Alberto G. Corona mailto:agocor...@gmail.com>> 2012/10/17 Bruno Ma

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Dear Stephen, On 19 Oct 2012, at 19:44, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/19/2012 1:37 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Oct 2012, at 22:02, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/17 Alberto G. Corona 2012/10/17 Bruno Marchal On 17 Oct 2012, at 10:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Life may suppor

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/19/2012 1:37 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Oct 2012, at 22:02, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/17 Alberto G. Corona > 2012/10/17 Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> On 17 Oct 2012, at 10:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Life

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 17 Oct 2012, at 22:02, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/17 Alberto G. Corona 2012/10/17 Bruno Marchal On 17 Oct 2012, at 10:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Life may support mathematics. Arithmetic may support life. It is full of life and dreams. Life is a computation devoted t

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 17 Oct 2012, at 21:57, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/17 Bruno Marchal On 17 Oct 2012, at 10:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Life may support mathematics. Arithmetic may support life. It is full of life and dreams. Life is a computation devoted to making guesses about the futur

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 17 Oct 2012, at 15:15, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/17/2012 8:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:33, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that consciousness, arises at (or

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

But arithmetic + comp might support string theory, and has too, if matter is strings. Also, arithmetic is simpler as it can be taught in high school, and I think that you need arithmetic to understand string theory. String theory assume the quantum theory, but the UD Argument shows that i

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/17/2012 6:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:44:40 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/17/2012 4:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I meant that awareness is not emulable outside of awareness. You can't make something which pretends to itself that i

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:44:40 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/17/2012 4:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > I meant that awareness is not emulable outside of awareness. You can't > make something which pretends to itself that it is experiencing something. > Once you have 1

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/17/2012 4:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I meant that awareness is not emulable outside of awareness. You can't make something which pretends to itself that it is experiencing something. Once you have 1p awareness though, sure, you can re-present and meta-represent all kinds of awareness wi

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:56:26 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/17/2012 12:38 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:11:00 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 17 Oct 2012, at 02:42, Stephen P. King wrote: >> > It is the inability of com

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/17/2012 12:38 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:11:00 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Oct 2012, at 02:42, Stephen P. King wrote: > It is the inability of comp to solve the arithmetic body problem > that is its Achilles heel. No. It is the

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

In string theory compact dimensions support arithmetic, which in turn supports the evolution of life and dreams. Richard On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 17 Oct 2012, at 10:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > >> > Life may support mathematics. > > > > Arithmetic may sup

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/17/2012 12:10 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Oct 2012, at 02:42, Stephen P. King wrote: It is the inability of comp to solve the arithmetic body problem that is its Achilles heel. No. It is the strongest point of comp. It does solve it constructively, so it makes comp testable and/or o

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 17 Oct 2012, at 10:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Life may support mathematics. Arithmetic may support life. It is full of life and dreams. Life is a computation devoted to making guesses about the future in order to self preserve . This is only possible in a world where natural c

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:11:00 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 17 Oct 2012, at 02:42, Stephen P. King wrote: > > It is the inability of comp to solve the arithmetic body problem > > that is its Achilles heel. > > No. It is the strongest point of comp. It does solve it > c

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 17 Oct 2012, at 02:42, Stephen P. King wrote: It is the inability of comp to solve the arithmetic body problem that is its Achilles heel. No. It is the strongest point of comp. It does solve it constructively, so it makes comp testable and/or our simulation level measurable. You can

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 16 Oct 2012, at 21:56, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:05 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magi

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/17/2012 8:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:33, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that consciousness, arises at (or above ?) the level of noncomputability. He just see

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:33, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that consciousness, arises at (or above ?) the level of noncomputability. He just seems to say that intuiton does. But that just s

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

2012/10/17 Stephen P. King > On 10/17/2012 4:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > >> Life may support mathematics. >> > Hi Alberto, > > OK, we can think of Life, in a very abstract sense, as the generator > of variety and pattern, so that might work. This makes Life = God! > > > > Life is a com

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

t; -Woody Allen > > > - Receiving the following content - > From: Craig Weinberg > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-16, 14:11:14 > Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly > complexcomputations ? > > > > > On T

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:14:25 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 10:14 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:42:16 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 16

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:57:43 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 10:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 16,

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/17/2012 4:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Life may support mathematics. Hi Alberto, OK, we can think of Life, in a very abstract sense, as the generator of variety and pattern, so that might work. This makes Life = God! Life is a computation devoted to making guesses about the fut

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

g Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16, 14:11:14 Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ? On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Computation

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

2012/10/17 Stephen P. King > On 10/16/2012 10:14 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:42:16 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: >>> >>> Sorry C

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 10:14 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:42:16 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 10:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:42:16 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: >> >> Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to >> how sense underlies c

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 5:26 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to how sense underlies consciousness and comp. In fact you seem to contradict that claim: I.G., "These

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am official

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 4:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:41:59 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: > > Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to > how sense underlies consciousness and comp. In fact you seem to > contradict that claim: I.G., "These experiential phenomena > (telesemantics, sense, perce

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Sorry Craig but http://s33light.org/SEEES did not make any sense as to how sense underlies consciousness and comp. In fact you seem to contradict that claim: I.G., "These experiential phenomena (telesemantics, sense, perception, awareness, consciousness) are different levels of same thing". Comput

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almos

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 12:05 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough c

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything." and now you suggest that consciou

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: > "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost > anything

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything." and now you suggest that consciousness is contingent on a level of evoluti

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

The difference between "consciousness as an emergence from complexity" and "consciousness is a functionality necessary for, and evolved with by natural selection" is that the latter is a falsable theory (if we find an observable effect of consciousness) while the former is not even a theory

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Hi Alberto, OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything." and now you suggest that consciousness is contingent on a level of evolution, ala: "... in this stage of evolution a fo

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 9:36 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost anything. Most of the time as an excuse for not saying "I don´t know", that is the prerequisite for thinking deeper about the problem. I prefer to say I don´t know. Hi A

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

lt;+rclo...@verizon.net> > 10/16/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > - Receiving the following content - > From: Stephen P. King > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-16, 08:55:23 > Subject: Re: Is consc

Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that consciousness, arises at (or above ?) the level of noncomputability. He just seems to say that intuiton does. But that just seems to be a conjecture of his. ugh, rclo...@veriz

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16, 09:08:49 Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ? On 10/16/2012 8:54 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >Computation is an

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16, 08:55:23 Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ? Hi Roger, On 10/16/2012

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

er Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16, 08:29:38 Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an em

Re: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ?

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16, 08:33:45 Subject: Re: Is consciousness just