Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Coo on 1st agreement. Yes, you are right. The CSS is not broken. Fix is used very loosely, as is hack in my vocab. I have been leaving too many blanket statements (which is what I told someone else not to do so I'm am 100% guilty there). "I don't know...bug not found" really means IE 6 does not prevent you from having a cross-browser site. None of the bugs are out of the scope of the community. lol @ you fix your css I'll hack mine. :-) I got a good laugh out of that one. It is semantics, yes. That's all it is. I understand your need to not let people think false info is true. I do that all the time, hence the many posts I've had on this thread. I'm a semi-lurker but folks started in about ASP.NET and were making highly incorrect statements. I couldn't sit idle. :-) (same for this IE derivation but I simply didn't do as good a job explaining myself) Yes, I'm over it. I wasn't trippin' though. Just look at the many battles I was fighting and long emails I had to keep typing. After awhile it started getting irritating. I guess I brought it on myself though. It was addicting. :-) Yes, I shouldn't have left "definitely" by itself. "That is definitely not a bug just because it doesn't render properly." That's what I should have said and it would've saved me a lot of time and carpo'. :-) That was my main issue. He made it seem like JUST because it didn't render properly, he called MSFT to complain about a bug OR it is a bug JUST because it didn't render right. That's where I drew the line. :-D Your interpretation of what I wrote was 100% correct. I tell you though, these lists really do make you check yourself. You have to type to cover yourself or you get flamed or end up improperly flaming someone. This weekend, as I noticed reading over my posts, I talked like it was a verbal conversation where tone, inflection, etc are available and can help lead a convo or explain a though. I'll work on it. :-) On 10/1/06, Mark Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > CSS developers aren't considered such unless they can make > > things work cross-browser. Would you agree? > > Agreed, no arguments there. > > > Even if you > > don't, that is my take. I won't hire anyone for XHTML/CSS > > unless they can work cross-browser. So, again...fix your CSS. > > This is where we differ in opinion slightly, but ultimately our > objective is the same - CSS that works consistently cross-browser. I'd > prefer the term *hack* (as I previously used) as opposed to fix. Fix by > definition implies something is broken, and in this case it isn't the > CSS. Semantics here really, but that's my take. > > John wrote: > > I don't know of a "bug" or > > feature that a hack hasn't been discovered. > > And Jochem wrote: > > And how do you know about them? You know about them > > because somebody ran into them and reported them > > I agree with Jochem on this. It's most likely there are still IE6 bugs > in existence we have yet to find, primarily due to the obscurity of the > circumstances and code required to trigger them, but if they're not > reported no-one would ever know. > > >With every link you provided, isn't > > there a way around it? Again, fix your CSS. ;-) > > Most of the time, yes there is. I provided some of those links to make > it clear that IE does have bugs that are unrelated to its rendering > engine, and I'm sorry, but I just COULDN'T have people thinking that IE > was in control of everything it did!! You fix your CSS and I'll hack > mine :-) On the other hand, there are conditional comments to help in > these situations and I wouldn't consider them a hack. > > > lol. Man...it isn't that serious Mark. I'll try to be more > > careful in the future not to make statements without being > > extra detailed. > > Ah come now John. I'm sure you're over it, and maybe my tone came > across a little differently to how I would have liked so I apologise if > it felt like you were getting *bashed*. We all make generalisations, > myself included, and often they are easily misinterpreted. Honestly, I > wasn't actually sure in your initial post whether or not you truly > believed all differences in display were a direct result of the > rendering engine, but that's how it came across... > > > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering > > > something right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering > engine. > > It wasn't so much the lack of detail as the inaccuracy of that > statement! Not trying to be an ass here, but my interpretation of the > above was that "all differences in IE rendering are due to its engine". > This was reinforced by use of the word definitely and the fact you had > no information about the rendering issue in question, yet were still > able to confidently state it was not a bug. Was that not a fair > interpretation based on what you wrote? > > Anyway, my intention was not to rant, but perhaps you can see why I > decided to take exception with that paragraph. Oh, and my eyes ar
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> CSS developers aren't considered such unless they can make > things work cross-browser. Would you agree? Agreed, no arguments there. > Even if you > don't, that is my take. I won't hire anyone for XHTML/CSS > unless they can work cross-browser. So, again...fix your CSS. This is where we differ in opinion slightly, but ultimately our objective is the same - CSS that works consistently cross-browser. I'd prefer the term *hack* (as I previously used) as opposed to fix. Fix by definition implies something is broken, and in this case it isn't the CSS. Semantics here really, but that's my take. John wrote: > I don't know of a "bug" or > feature that a hack hasn't been discovered. And Jochem wrote: > And how do you know about them? You know about them > because somebody ran into them and reported them I agree with Jochem on this. It's most likely there are still IE6 bugs in existence we have yet to find, primarily due to the obscurity of the circumstances and code required to trigger them, but if they're not reported no-one would ever know. >With every link you provided, isn't > there a way around it? Again, fix your CSS. ;-) Most of the time, yes there is. I provided some of those links to make it clear that IE does have bugs that are unrelated to its rendering engine, and I'm sorry, but I just COULDN'T have people thinking that IE was in control of everything it did!! You fix your CSS and I'll hack mine :-) On the other hand, there are conditional comments to help in these situations and I wouldn't consider them a hack. > lol. Man...it isn't that serious Mark. I'll try to be more > careful in the future not to make statements without being > extra detailed. Ah come now John. I'm sure you're over it, and maybe my tone came across a little differently to how I would have liked so I apologise if it felt like you were getting *bashed*. We all make generalisations, myself included, and often they are easily misinterpreted. Honestly, I wasn't actually sure in your initial post whether or not you truly believed all differences in display were a direct result of the rendering engine, but that's how it came across... > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering > > something right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. It wasn't so much the lack of detail as the inaccuracy of that statement! Not trying to be an ass here, but my interpretation of the above was that "all differences in IE rendering are due to its engine". This was reinforced by use of the word definitely and the fact you had no information about the rendering issue in question, yet were still able to confidently state it was not a bug. Was that not a fair interpretation based on what you wrote? Anyway, my intention was not to rant, but perhaps you can see why I decided to take exception with that paragraph. Oh, and my eyes are bad so I do squint, but I never type with a frown (my forehead is already wrinkly), so it's all good! And I must remember not to use the format http://mylink.com> when sending links from home *smacks self* Mark -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by ISPNZ's automated virus detection system, and is believed to be clean. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254932 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
(again, responded off list) On 10/1/06, Matt Quackenbush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I typically don't respond to this type of thread, but this one kinda threw > me... > > While I wholeheartedly agree that one should be able to "make things work > cross-browser", it is absurd at best to suggest that to "fix your CSS > issues > = find out the necessary hack to fix your issue". The very fact that it's > a > HACK means there's no way in hell that one *should* have to do it. And to > suggest that a HACK is the equivalent as a FIX? WOW! A hack is a hack, > always has been, always will be. A HACK is diametrically opposed to a > FIX. > > Does that mean that I don't use CSS hacks? Hell no it doesn't. I use > them > all the time. Do I do it because I need to show off my mad skillz and > prove > my cross-browser worth? Hell no. I do it because IE is a complete P.O.S. > and it is riddled with so many rendering bugs that I have no choice but to > do the hacks if I want 70% of the web-viewing public to be able to see a > decent copy of my page. > > If your argument was that a developer could be considered lazy if they > decided on a tables-based layout instead of CSS/XHTML because they didn't > want to learn the hacks necessary to do a pure CSS layout, then I could > agree. But to assert that it's not a bug/problem with IE since there is a > hack available... That's frequin delusional. :-) > > > > -Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:20 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Oh man, this is one of the reasons I don't like replying on big lists. I > have to explain every detail or I get "flamed" by someone. > > Duh, the rendering engine does not render everything properly and the > community has found the necessary hacks to work around them. Did you think > I > was talking about 5 years ago or now? You even said most hacks are known > now. Of course I'm talking about now. I don't know of a "bug" or feature > that a hack hasn't been discovered. > > So, in detail, fix your CSS issues = find out the necessary hack to fix > your > issue. > > CSS developers aren't considered such unless they can make things work > cross-browser. Would you agree? Even if you don't, that is my take. I > won't > hire anyone for XHTML/CSS unless they can work cross-browser. So, > again...fix your CSS. > > Yes, IE 6 bites big time. MSFT has admitted it and pretty much every > developer that has ever worked with JS or CSS knows this. I never said it > doesn't have bugs but to put a blanket statement of "something not > rendering > properly is a bug" is a little much. With every link you provided, isn't > there a way around it? Again, fix your CSS. ;-) > > lol. Man...it isn't that serious Mark. I'll try to be more careful in the > future not to make statements without being extra detailed. > > On 10/1/06, Mark Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 9/30/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote > > > He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. > > > > Then John C. Bland II wrote > > >Apparently not. ;-) > > > > and the text in question from Jochem: > > > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results > > > in incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month > later? > > > That is not my experience with MS support. > > > > I think Jochem was simply putting the acid test on Matthews previous > > support claims (with particular emphasis on the time frame for a fix). > > It's certainly not wrong to test the validity of a particular > > statement while meeting the specified criteria, or is it? > > > > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering > > something > > > right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. > > > > I'll add an LOL to that. I think you needed to do a little bit more > > research before making such a blanket statement, since it seems you > > are associating *all* differences in IE rendering with its engine. > > Sometimes that is the case, sometimes, but not always, which logically > > makes your statement false. A difference in IE rendering can sometimes > > be put down to the engine in question (expected behaviour, even *if* > > it conflicts with the docs), versus faulty rendering (defective > > rendering equates to buggy behaviour, no matter what the engine is). > > The two are
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
(responded offlist; this post is pretty much dead and no need to fill up everyone's inbox) On 10/1/06, Jochem van Dieten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > John C. Bland II wrote: > > Duh, the rendering engine does not render everything properly and the > > community has found the necessary hacks to work around them. Did you > think I > > was talking about 5 years ago or now? > > You were talking about a specific phone call I made in the past. If you > don't know when that call was exactly, shouldn't you ask before jumping the > gun? > > > > You even said most hacks are known > > now. Of course I'm talking about now. I don't know of a "bug" or feature > > that a hack hasn't been discovered. > > And how do you know about them? You know about them because somebody ran > into them and reported them. Because that is what responsible developers do, > they report bugs when they encounter them. And I have on occasion used the > phone for that because other means of reporting issues to MS give the same > response as a black hole. > > > > Yes, IE 6 bites big time. MSFT has admitted it and pretty much every > > developer that has ever worked with JS or CSS knows this. I never said > it > > doesn't have bugs but to put a blanket statement of "something not > rendering > > properly is a bug" is a little much. > > But that is not what I wrote. I wrote: "where for instance a bug in IE > results in incorrect rendering" which defines a causal relation between the > rendering problem and a bug. > > I am not the one making blanket statements, I am just relating my > experiences. > > > > With every link you provided, isn't there a way around it? > > So as long as there is a way around it, it isn't a bug? I think we should > agree to disagree on that. > > > > Now that that is cleared up, let's go back to the question I asked. And I > will even reformulate the question because I would really like to know if MS > has some decent support to offer for the little guy (and indeed, if the > support is decent, $245 is pocket change). So: > > If I encounter a problem in IE where a bug causes incorrect rendering to > the point of an application being unuseable, can I just call MS and get a > patch for IE? Or can I even get somebody to admit that it is a problem in IE > and not in my code? > > Jochem > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254922 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
John C. Bland II wrote: > Duh, the rendering engine does not render everything properly and the > community has found the necessary hacks to work around them. Did you think I > was talking about 5 years ago or now? You were talking about a specific phone call I made in the past. If you don't know when that call was exactly, shouldn't you ask before jumping the gun? > You even said most hacks are known > now. Of course I'm talking about now. I don't know of a "bug" or feature > that a hack hasn't been discovered. And how do you know about them? You know about them because somebody ran into them and reported them. Because that is what responsible developers do, they report bugs when they encounter them. And I have on occasion used the phone for that because other means of reporting issues to MS give the same response as a black hole. > Yes, IE 6 bites big time. MSFT has admitted it and pretty much every > developer that has ever worked with JS or CSS knows this. I never said it > doesn't have bugs but to put a blanket statement of "something not rendering > properly is a bug" is a little much. But that is not what I wrote. I wrote: "where for instance a bug in IE results in incorrect rendering" which defines a causal relation between the rendering problem and a bug. I am not the one making blanket statements, I am just relating my experiences. > With every link you provided, isn't there a way around it? So as long as there is a way around it, it isn't a bug? I think we should agree to disagree on that. Now that that is cleared up, let's go back to the question I asked. And I will even reformulate the question because I would really like to know if MS has some decent support to offer for the little guy (and indeed, if the support is decent, $245 is pocket change). So: If I encounter a problem in IE where a bug causes incorrect rendering to the point of an application being unuseable, can I just call MS and get a patch for IE? Or can I even get somebody to admit that it is a problem in IE and not in my code? Jochem ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254916 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I typically don't respond to this type of thread, but this one kinda threw me... While I wholeheartedly agree that one should be able to "make things work cross-browser", it is absurd at best to suggest that to "fix your CSS issues = find out the necessary hack to fix your issue". The very fact that it's a HACK means there's no way in hell that one *should* have to do it. And to suggest that a HACK is the equivalent as a FIX? WOW! A hack is a hack, always has been, always will be. A HACK is diametrically opposed to a FIX. Does that mean that I don't use CSS hacks? Hell no it doesn't. I use them all the time. Do I do it because I need to show off my mad skillz and prove my cross-browser worth? Hell no. I do it because IE is a complete P.O.S. and it is riddled with so many rendering bugs that I have no choice but to do the hacks if I want 70% of the web-viewing public to be able to see a decent copy of my page. If your argument was that a developer could be considered lazy if they decided on a tables-based layout instead of CSS/XHTML because they didn't want to learn the hacks necessary to do a pure CSS layout, then I could agree. But to assert that it's not a bug/problem with IE since there is a hack available... That's frequin delusional. :-) -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:20 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Oh man, this is one of the reasons I don't like replying on big lists. I have to explain every detail or I get "flamed" by someone. Duh, the rendering engine does not render everything properly and the community has found the necessary hacks to work around them. Did you think I was talking about 5 years ago or now? You even said most hacks are known now. Of course I'm talking about now. I don't know of a "bug" or feature that a hack hasn't been discovered. So, in detail, fix your CSS issues = find out the necessary hack to fix your issue. CSS developers aren't considered such unless they can make things work cross-browser. Would you agree? Even if you don't, that is my take. I won't hire anyone for XHTML/CSS unless they can work cross-browser. So, again...fix your CSS. Yes, IE 6 bites big time. MSFT has admitted it and pretty much every developer that has ever worked with JS or CSS knows this. I never said it doesn't have bugs but to put a blanket statement of "something not rendering properly is a bug" is a little much. With every link you provided, isn't there a way around it? Again, fix your CSS. ;-) lol. Man...it isn't that serious Mark. I'll try to be more careful in the future not to make statements without being extra detailed. On 10/1/06, Mark Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 9/30/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote > > He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. > > Then John C. Bland II wrote > >Apparently not. ;-) > > and the text in question from Jochem: > > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results > > in incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? > > That is not my experience with MS support. > > I think Jochem was simply putting the acid test on Matthews previous > support claims (with particular emphasis on the time frame for a fix). > It's certainly not wrong to test the validity of a particular > statement while meeting the specified criteria, or is it? > > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering > something > > right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. > > I'll add an LOL to that. I think you needed to do a little bit more > research before making such a blanket statement, since it seems you > are associating *all* differences in IE rendering with its engine. > Sometimes that is the case, sometimes, but not always, which logically > makes your statement false. A difference in IE rendering can sometimes > be put down to the engine in question (expected behaviour, even *if* > it conflicts with the docs), versus faulty rendering (defective > rendering equates to buggy behaviour, no matter what the engine is). > The two are not the same. FWIW, all IE7 bugs can now be reported on their blog: > http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/01/31/520817.aspx> > > > CSS developers know what it can and can't handle. > > Historically, that has simply not been the case. Maybe now that *most* > IE bugs have been discovered, it is a little closer to the truth, and > those taking up CSS are able to easily apply the hacks relevant to > their problems. However, when said bugs were still in their infancy > (with plenty still yet to be discovered),
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Phillip, Well written. I agree 100%. John > -Original Message- > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Steve, > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java > is > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I > must > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > capability > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or clients > that > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx?FileNam > e= > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless Adobe > adopts > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst > continuing > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game in town > and > they need to start acting like it. > > I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate it > just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have finally > learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. > Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt yourself in > the > end. > > > > --Phil > > ===> > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in > development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of > original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are > times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than CF - > given > that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. > > Steve Brownlee > http://www.fusioncube.net/ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > > valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net > > ... I just know VB myself, > > > > TK > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254913 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Read my last post in response. I explain. On 10/1/06, Jochem van Dieten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > John C. Bland II > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering > something > > right? > > Of course. If you find a bug you report it. How else do bugs get fixed, by > bashing the vendor on #1337? > > > > That is definitely not a bug. > > So how would you call it if a browser does not render a page the way the > documentation says it will be rendered? One might argue that it is not a > rendering bug but a documentation bug, but even that is still a bug. > > Jochem > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254910 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Oh man, this is one of the reasons I don't like replying on big lists. I have to explain every detail or I get "flamed" by someone. Duh, the rendering engine does not render everything properly and the community has found the necessary hacks to work around them. Did you think I was talking about 5 years ago or now? You even said most hacks are known now. Of course I'm talking about now. I don't know of a "bug" or feature that a hack hasn't been discovered. So, in detail, fix your CSS issues = find out the necessary hack to fix your issue. CSS developers aren't considered such unless they can make things work cross-browser. Would you agree? Even if you don't, that is my take. I won't hire anyone for XHTML/CSS unless they can work cross-browser. So, again...fix your CSS. Yes, IE 6 bites big time. MSFT has admitted it and pretty much every developer that has ever worked with JS or CSS knows this. I never said it doesn't have bugs but to put a blanket statement of "something not rendering properly is a bug" is a little much. With every link you provided, isn't there a way around it? Again, fix your CSS. ;-) lol. Man...it isn't that serious Mark. I'll try to be more careful in the future not to make statements without being extra detailed. On 10/1/06, Mark Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 9/30/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote > > He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. > > Then John C. Bland II wrote > >Apparently not. ;-) > > and the text in question from Jochem: > > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results in > > incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? > > That is not my experience with MS support. > > I think Jochem was simply putting the acid test on Matthews previous > support claims (with particular emphasis on the time frame for a fix). > It's certainly not wrong to test the validity of a particular statement > while meeting the specified criteria, or is it? > > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering > something > > right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. > > I'll add an LOL to that. I think you needed to do a little bit more > research before making such a blanket statement, since it seems you are > associating *all* differences in IE rendering with its engine. Sometimes > that is the case, sometimes, but not always, which logically makes your > statement false. A difference in IE rendering can sometimes be put down > to the engine in question (expected behaviour, even *if* it conflicts > with the docs), versus faulty rendering (defective rendering equates to > buggy behaviour, no matter what the engine is). The two are not the > same. FWIW, all IE7 bugs can now be reported on their blog: > http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/01/31/520817.aspx> > > > CSS developers know what it can and can't handle. > > Historically, that has simply not been the case. Maybe now that *most* > IE bugs have been discovered, it is a little closer to the truth, and > those taking up CSS are able to easily apply the hacks relevant to their > problems. However, when said bugs were still in their infancy (with > plenty still yet to be discovered), it was an extremely frustrating time > for a lot of developers, having to break things down to, at the very > least, a minimal test case before attempting to resolve the issue. > Remember, this was at a time well before the release of IE7 where we had > to try and nut these problems out for ourselves (with little knowledge > of the IE rendering engine, I might add). And they were *not* easy to > resolve - just see the solution to the 3 pixel text jog below for proof > of this. > > An example might help serve my point better. Some IE weirdness can > definitely be grouped under the category of "it's a feature", an example > being the 3 pixel text jog: > http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html> > Hardly a handy feature in my opinion, but I suppose that was Microsoft's > call and the browser *was* designed to behave that way. Now, the > guillotine bug on the other hand can in no way, shape, or form be > interpreted as anything other than a bug, period. > http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/guillotine.html > > If you really want to argue that this (and many many others) are simply > a product of the rendering engine and that this is not buggy behaviour, > then by all means, go right ahead. But before you do, please read this: > http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/08/22/712830.aspx> > > if Microsoft are prepared to admit to their bugs, maybe it's time you > accepted that they exist. > > > If you did something it can't > > handle, tough cookies. Fix your CSS...not IE. > > This ties in with the faulty perception that all rendering differences > in IE are solely related to the engine. It's not so much what it can't > handle; we know IE versions prior to 7 don't support pseudo classes for > instance, so we just don't use them wher
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
"In fact, the only company that does worse is Blackboard" So very true. M!ke ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254906 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
On 9/30/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote > He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. Then John C. Bland II wrote >Apparently not. ;-) and the text in question from Jochem: > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results in > incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? > That is not my experience with MS support. I think Jochem was simply putting the acid test on Matthews previous support claims (with particular emphasis on the time frame for a fix). It's certainly not wrong to test the validity of a particular statement while meeting the specified criteria, or is it? > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering something > right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. I'll add an LOL to that. I think you needed to do a little bit more research before making such a blanket statement, since it seems you are associating *all* differences in IE rendering with its engine. Sometimes that is the case, sometimes, but not always, which logically makes your statement false. A difference in IE rendering can sometimes be put down to the engine in question (expected behaviour, even *if* it conflicts with the docs), versus faulty rendering (defective rendering equates to buggy behaviour, no matter what the engine is). The two are not the same. FWIW, all IE7 bugs can now be reported on their blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/01/31/520817.aspx> > CSS developers know what it can and can't handle. Historically, that has simply not been the case. Maybe now that *most* IE bugs have been discovered, it is a little closer to the truth, and those taking up CSS are able to easily apply the hacks relevant to their problems. However, when said bugs were still in their infancy (with plenty still yet to be discovered), it was an extremely frustrating time for a lot of developers, having to break things down to, at the very least, a minimal test case before attempting to resolve the issue. Remember, this was at a time well before the release of IE7 where we had to try and nut these problems out for ourselves (with little knowledge of the IE rendering engine, I might add). And they were *not* easy to resolve - just see the solution to the 3 pixel text jog below for proof of this. An example might help serve my point better. Some IE weirdness can definitely be grouped under the category of "it's a feature", an example being the 3 pixel text jog: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html> Hardly a handy feature in my opinion, but I suppose that was Microsoft's call and the browser *was* designed to behave that way. Now, the guillotine bug on the other hand can in no way, shape, or form be interpreted as anything other than a bug, period. http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/guillotine.html If you really want to argue that this (and many many others) are simply a product of the rendering engine and that this is not buggy behaviour, then by all means, go right ahead. But before you do, please read this: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/08/22/712830.aspx> if Microsoft are prepared to admit to their bugs, maybe it's time you accepted that they exist. > If you did something it can't > handle, tough cookies. Fix your CSS...not IE. This ties in with the faulty perception that all rendering differences in IE are solely related to the engine. It's not so much what it can't handle; we know IE versions prior to 7 don't support pseudo classes for instance, so we just don't use them where IE is concerned. The problems tend to arise when its output differs to the specifications, and how it renders differently compared to other more standards compliant browsers (based on correct and valid code). What you see is not always what you expect to see, at least where IE is concerned. Most issues can be fixed, but to do so often requires the use of various *hacks* to help IE fall in line (sometimes even exploiting one IE bug to counter another) and has nothing to do with *fixing* what is not broken CSS. Mark ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254904 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) wrote: > He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. "that is not a bug, that is a feature" -> IE rendering of some CSS Level 1 core stuff (btw, the MS homepage still claims that IE 6 has "Full CSS Level 1 Support" http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie6/evaluation/features/default.mspx but we all know better) "we can not disclose whether this bug exists because that would open us to litigation" -> this later became known as the Peekaboo bug "it is not a bug but we won't charge you for reporting this and you will have a much better experience with the next version" -> IIS 4 / ASP isolation level issue My support experience with Microsoft is consistently bad. In fact, the only company that does worse is Blackboard (but that may be because I am not their customer but just keep finding security vulnerabilities in Blackboard). Jochem ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254897 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
John C. Bland II > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering something > right? Of course. If you find a bug you report it. How else do bugs get fixed, by bashing the vendor on #1337? > That is definitely not a bug. So how would you call it if a browser does not render a page the way the documentation says it will be rendered? One might argue that it is not a rendering bug but a documentation bug, but even that is still a bug. Jochem ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254896 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Apparently not. ;-) On 9/30/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -Original Message----- > From: John C. Bland II > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Sat Sep 30 22:15:40 2006 > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering something > right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. CSS > developers know what it can and can't handle. If you did something it > can't > handle, tough cookies. Fix your CSS...not IE. lol. > > Sorry man, that just seemed pretty far-fetched. Now, if you had an issue > with a .NET applicaiton or ASP.NET site, you called MSFT, and got the same > responses...I would understand. > > Not trying to flame you or anything. Your email just didn't make much > sense, > to me at least. > > On 9/30/06, Jochem van Dieten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Matthew Small wrote: > > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > > > they are supported, constantly. > > > > IIRC the only web development language of any significance ever > deprecated > > by its vendor was ASP. > > > > > > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When > > > you write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using > > > JRUN and CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our > > > professional support costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you > > > have a seriously important application that needs to be fixed NOW. > > > > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results in > > incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? > That > > is not my experience with MS support. My experience is more along the > lines > > of "that is not a bug, that is a feature". Another famous one is "we can > not > > disclose whether this bug exists because that would open us to > litigation". > > Or how about "it is not a bug but we won't charge you for reporting this > and > > you will have a much better experience with the next version". > > > > > > In my experience (with any software vendor) the only recource the small > > guy can really rely on is the source code and sufficient skill to fix it > > yourself. > > > > Jochem > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254892 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
He was being sarcastic, that was obvious. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 22:15:40 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering something right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. CSS developers know what it can and can't handle. If you did something it can't handle, tough cookies. Fix your CSS...not IE. lol. Sorry man, that just seemed pretty far-fetched. Now, if you had an issue with a .NET applicaiton or ASP.NET site, you called MSFT, and got the same responses...I would understand. Not trying to flame you or anything. Your email just didn't make much sense, to me at least. On 9/30/06, Jochem van Dieten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Matthew Small wrote: > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > > they are supported, constantly. > > IIRC the only web development language of any significance ever deprecated > by its vendor was ASP. > > > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When > > you write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using > > JRUN and CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our > > professional support costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you > > have a seriously important application that needs to be fixed NOW. > > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results in > incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? That > is not my experience with MS support. My experience is more along the lines > of "that is not a bug, that is a feature". Another famous one is "we can not > disclose whether this bug exists because that would open us to litigation". > Or how about "it is not a bug but we won't charge you for reporting this and > you will have a much better experience with the next version". > > > In my experience (with any software vendor) the only recource the small > guy can really rely on is the source code and sufficient skill to fix it > yourself. > > Jochem > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254891 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I don't have access to a solaris box, but I will install one if necessary. Do you have an actual code sample? Russ > -Original Message- > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:38 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Russ here is a memory leak example on CF: > > Try running text processing intenisve application (log parser) on CF 6.1 > on > Solaris... Has a big time memory leak, will crash. Run the same code on CF > 6.1. on Windows Server 2003 - stable. Here is your example. > > I am sure other platforms are not perfect, but you asked for a CF example, > > TK > > -Original Message- > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:01 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > If CF is deployed on Linux, half of your support would not be needed. If > you want to write some custom handlers, you can do those in java and plug > them into jrun. Nothing special about .NET here. > > Personally, I would like an example of a memory leak in CF. I don't doubt > that a lot of enterprises use .NET, but that's mostly due to microsoft's > marketing and getting .NET into schools and universities, something that > macromedia is not doing with CF. > > Personally, I would like an example of CF/Java code that causes a memory > leak. > > Russ > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:30 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on > > this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. CF. > > It's to respond to Dave's comments. > > > > I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) > and > > DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, > > it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government > > agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a > > lot, so CF is a good place to be. > > > > However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in > the > > enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for > > Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use > > ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've > > supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming > > tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's > > not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone > > pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these > > features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to > the > > System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session > state > > stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify > them; > > .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL > > database; interoperability between classes written in different > languages; > > and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by > > anybody. > > > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > they > > are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how > to > > capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that > > caused it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact > object > > that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around > > it. When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular > > groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated > > windows authentication with a single sign on and your code can be > > protected using NTFS permissions. > > > > Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing > > some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the > enterprise > > is where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big > companies > > on our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, > MS > > will be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level > of > > support like that from anybody else. > > > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When > you > > write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Putting a lot of data into a session variable is NOT a memory leak. It is just bad design, pure and simple. A memory leak is when you (in other languages, as CF is based on Java which is meant to prevent memory leaks) allocate memory for a variable and then don't dealocate it. Something like this: char *c; for (int x=1;x<1000;x++) c=malloc(1000*sizeof(char)); This allocates 1k array 1000 times and doesn't free the memory. The memory becomes lost and inaccessible, and is therefore a memory leak. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Chesty Puller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:49 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > That's just wrong. Over 99% of our support is not about bugs in the > products we have, it's about how people are using them. I can't count the > number of people who can't configure permissions properly. But when you > can't do it, we're there to fix your problems. Linux Corp. isn't there to > help. > > It doesn't take much to create a memory leak - just try placing a lot of > data in a session variable and let 1000s of people hit your site. Your > process memory will grow entirely out of control. > > I didn't write to pick on CF, I just wanted to point out that MS is heavy > into enterprise because, as someone pointed out, it's an end-to-end > solution. Their stuff all works together, and if it doesn't, we fix it. > > - Matt > > > > > ----- Original Message - > From: "Russ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:01 PM > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > If CF is deployed on Linux, half of your support would not be needed. > If > > you want to write some custom handlers, you can do those in java and > plug > > them into jrun. Nothing special about .NET here. > > > > Personally, I would like an example of a memory leak in CF. I don't > doubt > > that a lot of enterprises use .NET, but that's mostly due to microsoft's > > marketing and getting .NET into schools and universities, something that > > macromedia is not doing with CF. > > > > Personally, I would like an example of CF/Java code that causes a memory > > leak. > > > > Russ > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:30 PM > >> To: CF-Talk > >> Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > >> > >> Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on > >> this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. > CF. > >> It's to respond to Dave's comments. > >> > >> I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) > >> and > >> DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's > great, > >> it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government > >> agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a > >> lot, so CF is a good place to be. > >> > >> However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in > >> the > >> enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for > >> Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use > >> ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because > I've > >> supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming > >> tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's > >> not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone > >> pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these > >> features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to > >> the > >> System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session > >> state > >> stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify > >> them; > >> .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL > >> database; interoperability between classes written in different > >> languages; > >> and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched > by > >> anybody. > >> > >> One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > they > >> are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we c
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Are you seriously stating you called MSFT about IE not rendering something right? That is definitely not a bug. IE has a rendering engine. CSS developers know what it can and can't handle. If you did something it can't handle, tough cookies. Fix your CSS...not IE. lol. Sorry man, that just seemed pretty far-fetched. Now, if you had an issue with a .NET applicaiton or ASP.NET site, you called MSFT, and got the same responses...I would understand. Not trying to flame you or anything. Your email just didn't make much sense, to me at least. On 9/30/06, Jochem van Dieten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Matthew Small wrote: > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > > they are supported, constantly. > > IIRC the only web development language of any significance ever deprecated > by its vendor was ASP. > > > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When > > you write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using > > JRUN and CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our > > professional support costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you > > have a seriously important application that needs to be fixed NOW. > > So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results in > incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? That > is not my experience with MS support. My experience is more along the lines > of "that is not a bug, that is a feature". Another famous one is "we can not > disclose whether this bug exists because that would open us to litigation". > Or how about "it is not a bug but we won't charge you for reporting this and > you will have a much better experience with the next version". > > > In my experience (with any software vendor) the only recource the small > guy can really rely on is the source code and sufficient skill to fix it > yourself. > > Jochem > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254887 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Matthew Small wrote: > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > they are supported, constantly. IIRC the only web development language of any significance ever deprecated by its vendor was ASP. > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When > you write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using > JRUN and CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our > professional support costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you > have a seriously important application that needs to be fixed NOW. So next time I find an issue where for instance a bug in IE results in incorrect rendering, I can just call and I get a bugfix a month later? That is not my experience with MS support. My experience is more along the lines of "that is not a bug, that is a feature". Another famous one is "we can not disclose whether this bug exists because that would open us to litigation". Or how about "it is not a bug but we won't charge you for reporting this and you will have a much better experience with the next version". In my experience (with any software vendor) the only recource the small guy can really rely on is the source code and sufficient skill to fix it yourself. Jochem ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254883 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Tom, I very much agree. I think that a lot of technologies share the same abstract ideas. Developers learn syntax, but they tend to learn the same concepts over and over. I mean loop structure, array, data type conversions etc all exists in most established application languages. I would propose that probably the best way to share ideas between platforms would be to identify design patterns. I am sure there has to be a web site somewhere in which people can offer solutions across multiple platforms. A prime example is the similarities now between Flex Builder and Visual Studio. ColdFusion is being actively developed and future versions of ColdFusion will continue to grow in features. Whether it be Microsoft, Sun, RedHat etc I would be willing to wager Adobe will seek ways to integrate each of their strnegths into the product base to assist in creating a balanced product. I think this is the nature of any list. Share ideas and help others. Unless your solution provides something fundamentally wrong, it would be hard sometimes to demonstrate the "right" way of doing things. Now with that said, who would want to share a solution that can be translated between platforms or perhaps has done so in the past? Teddy On 9/30/06, Tom Kitta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Teddy, > > Maybe we can take this thread and make it more useful by showing strengths > of both technologies, how they can interact, how we can produce better > websites etc. At least this would make the conversation more mailing list > administrator friendly (I think). > > TK > > -Original Message- > From: Teddy Payne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 30 September 2006 16:11 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > This CF vs. .Net presentation mailing thread has been in active > contribution > most of the past week. I have seen heated debates and acknowledgements on > both sides. > > In essence, what is the result for this thread? Are people trying to > argue > that one technology is a silver bullet for a solution over the > other? This > seems rather fruitless in the end. > > Whether you are an advanced user or a beginning user, there should be an > emphasis on growth. You are only as valuable as your ability to adapt > and > problem solve. It behooves any developer to expand his/her knowledge on > various technologies. > > The more solution sets that you can become familiar with, the more that > you > can truly evaluate a solution for the best course of action. If a client > said, "I have a purely Microsoft environment," then it would make sense to > offer a Microsoft solution now wouldn't it? If you have diverse network > environment, you will want a a diverse solution. You can offer a > BlueDragon > solution and/or an Adobe solution. > > Even if you are a salary employee, you should always be thinking that you > are a paid consultant. Think objectively and find the best course of > action. If you can seperate your bias and use your objectivity, you may > find avenues that were not there before. > > Do not fear change, embrace it. This goes for a CF and a .Net developer. > Let's stop pointing out differences and point out how we can work together > or how similar we actually are. > > Enough cliches for one post. > > Have a good weekend all, > Teddy > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254881 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> Job security just does not exist much anymore, which is why it's important to know more than CF. > - Matt Small Really Matt? Its kept me employed for 7 years, and the two companies I own which specialise in CF are still doing very well. -- Russ ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254880 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
There's never any real pupose in these threads other than to bash one or the other. If you don't know anything other than CF, you're limiting your options. Job security just does not exist much anymore, which is why it's important to know more than CF. My own story is that I couldn't do something I wanted to accomplish by using CF, at least in a stable way (due to poor interop with COM). I learned ASP.NET to accomplish the task. I stayed with it because there was just more opportunity for me to get a better paying job. Now I have one, supporting ASP.NET and IIS for enterprise customers. Stock, bonuses, free health care, and massive career growth potential are more important to me than convincing someone that CF or .NET is a better solution. - Matt Small - Original Message - From: "Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > Indeed, we are an global Microsoft house and we use ColdFusion, and ASP, > and > ..NET.. We don't care to be honest.. Whatever fits. > > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -Original Message- > From: Tom Kitta > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Sat Sep 30 17:05:55 2006 > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Teddy, > > Maybe we can take this thread and make it more useful by showing strengths > of both technologies, how they can interact, how we can produce better > websites etc. At least this would make the conversation more mailing list > administrator friendly (I think). > > TK > > -Original Message- > From: Teddy Payne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 30 September 2006 16:11 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > This CF vs. .Net presentation mailing thread has been in active > contribution > most of the past week. I have seen heated debates and acknowledgements on > both sides. > > In essence, what is the result for this thread? Are people trying to > argue > that one technology is a silver bullet for a solution over the other? > This > seems rather fruitless in the end. > > Whether you are an advanced user or a beginning user, there should be an > emphasis on growth. You are only as valuable as your ability to adapt > and > problem solve. It behooves any developer to expand his/her knowledge on > various technologies. > > The more solution sets that you can become familiar with, the more that > you > can truly evaluate a solution for the best course of action. If a client > said, "I have a purely Microsoft environment," then it would make sense to > offer a Microsoft solution now wouldn't it? If you have diverse network > environment, you will want a a diverse solution. You can offer a > BlueDragon > solution and/or an Adobe solution. > > Even if you are a salary employee, you should always be thinking that you > are a paid consultant. Think objectively and find the best course of > action. If you can seperate your bias and use your objectivity, you may > find avenues that were not there before. > > Do not fear change, embrace it. This goes for a CF and a .Net developer. > Let's stop pointing out differences and point out how we can work together > or how similar we actually are. > > Enough cliches for one post. > > Have a good weekend all, > Teddy > > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254879 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Indeed, we are an global Microsoft house and we use ColdFusion, and ASP, and ..NET.. We don't care to be honest.. Whatever fits. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Tom Kitta To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 17:05:55 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Teddy, Maybe we can take this thread and make it more useful by showing strengths of both technologies, how they can interact, how we can produce better websites etc. At least this would make the conversation more mailing list administrator friendly (I think). TK -Original Message- From: Teddy Payne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 16:11 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? This CF vs. .Net presentation mailing thread has been in active contribution most of the past week. I have seen heated debates and acknowledgements on both sides. In essence, what is the result for this thread? Are people trying to argue that one technology is a silver bullet for a solution over the other? This seems rather fruitless in the end. Whether you are an advanced user or a beginning user, there should be an emphasis on growth. You are only as valuable as your ability to adapt and problem solve. It behooves any developer to expand his/her knowledge on various technologies. The more solution sets that you can become familiar with, the more that you can truly evaluate a solution for the best course of action. If a client said, "I have a purely Microsoft environment," then it would make sense to offer a Microsoft solution now wouldn't it? If you have diverse network environment, you will want a a diverse solution. You can offer a BlueDragon solution and/or an Adobe solution. Even if you are a salary employee, you should always be thinking that you are a paid consultant. Think objectively and find the best course of action. If you can seperate your bias and use your objectivity, you may find avenues that were not there before. Do not fear change, embrace it. This goes for a CF and a .Net developer. Let's stop pointing out differences and point out how we can work together or how similar we actually are. Enough cliches for one post. Have a good weekend all, Teddy ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254878 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Teddy, Maybe we can take this thread and make it more useful by showing strengths of both technologies, how they can interact, how we can produce better websites etc. At least this would make the conversation more mailing list administrator friendly (I think). TK -Original Message- From: Teddy Payne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 16:11 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? This CF vs. .Net presentation mailing thread has been in active contribution most of the past week. I have seen heated debates and acknowledgements on both sides. In essence, what is the result for this thread? Are people trying to argue that one technology is a silver bullet for a solution over the other? This seems rather fruitless in the end. Whether you are an advanced user or a beginning user, there should be an emphasis on growth. You are only as valuable as your ability to adapt and problem solve. It behooves any developer to expand his/her knowledge on various technologies. The more solution sets that you can become familiar with, the more that you can truly evaluate a solution for the best course of action. If a client said, "I have a purely Microsoft environment," then it would make sense to offer a Microsoft solution now wouldn't it? If you have diverse network environment, you will want a a diverse solution. You can offer a BlueDragon solution and/or an Adobe solution. Even if you are a salary employee, you should always be thinking that you are a paid consultant. Think objectively and find the best course of action. If you can seperate your bias and use your objectivity, you may find avenues that were not there before. Do not fear change, embrace it. This goes for a CF and a .Net developer. Let's stop pointing out differences and point out how we can work together or how similar we actually are. Enough cliches for one post. Have a good weekend all, Teddy ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254876 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
As it was my post you replied to, I will point out that I am not doing CF vs ..NET at all, in fact I was pointing out that you can write CFML on the .NET platform using BlueDragon so you don't really have to worry about which one to use in that environment, you can use both. I don't personally have antyhing against .NET, and if I were not a CF developer I would most likely be doing .NET anyway, I think it's a great framework. Russ "Snake" Michaels -Original Message- From: Teddy Payne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 16:11 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? This CF vs. .Net presentation mailing thread has been in active contribution most of the past week. I have seen heated debates and acknowledgements on both sides. In essence, what is the result for this thread? Are people trying to argue that one technology is a silver bullet for a solution over the other? This seems rather fruitless in the end. Whether you are an advanced user or a beginning user, there should be an emphasis on growth. You are only as valuable as your ability to adapt and problem solve. It behooves any developer to expand his/her knowledge on various technologies. The more solution sets that you can become familiar with, the more that you can truly evaluate a solution for the best course of action. If a client said, "I have a purely Microsoft environment," then it would make sense to offer a Microsoft solution now wouldn't it? If you have diverse network environment, you will want a a diverse solution. You can offer a BlueDragon solution and/or an Adobe solution. Even if you are a salary employee, you should always be thinking that you are a paid consultant. Think objectively and find the best course of action. If you can seperate your bias and use your objectivity, you may find avenues that were not there before. Do not fear change, embrace it. This goes for a CF and a .Net developer. Let's stop pointing out differences and point out how we can work together or how similar we actually are. Enough cliches for one post. Have a good weekend all, Teddy ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254874 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
This CF vs. .Net presentation mailing thread has been in active contribution most of the past week. I have seen heated debates and acknowledgements on both sides. In essence, what is the result for this thread? Are people trying to argue that one technology is a silver bullet for a solution over the other? This seems rather fruitless in the end. Whether you are an advanced user or a beginning user, there should be an emphasis on growth. You are only as valuable as your ability to adapt and problem solve. It behooves any developer to expand his/her knowledge on various technologies. The more solution sets that you can become familiar with, the more that you can truly evaluate a solution for the best course of action. If a client said, "I have a purely Microsoft environment," then it would make sense to offer a Microsoft solution now wouldn't it? If you have diverse network environment, you will want a a diverse solution. You can offer a BlueDragon solution and/or an Adobe solution. Even if you are a salary employee, you should always be thinking that you are a paid consultant. Think objectively and find the best course of action. If you can seperate your bias and use your objectivity, you may find avenues that were not there before. Do not fear change, embrace it. This goes for a CF and a .Net developer. Let's stop pointing out differences and point out how we can work together or how similar we actually are. Enough cliches for one post. Have a good weekend all, Teddy On 9/30/06, Snake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It may not be exactly the same, but you still have a .net application at > the > end of it, you can still use existing .net components, and integrate CFML > with ASP.net, so really whats the difference between that and writing .NET > in cobol? > > Russ > > -Original Message- > From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 30 September 2006 14:56 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > No I mean, using CFML in BD.NET is not really developing .NET, it's > ColdFusion which just happens to be using .NET. Just like developing > ColdFusion on Adobe ColdFusion is not developing in Java (not explicitly > anyway) > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -Original Message- > From: Snake > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Sat Sep 30 14:22:10 2006 > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > You can develop .NET in many languages, I do not think there is any > distinction vetween using VB.NET are reall programmers and J#.NET are not > > -Original Message- > From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 30 September 2006 11:52 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > If only it were that easy :-) Sure you are using .NET under the hood but I > don't think you can label yourself a .NET programmer any more than we can > call ourselves Java programmers by only using ColdFusion syntax etc. > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -Original Message- > From: Snake > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Sat Sep 30 11:30:42 2006 &
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
It may not be exactly the same, but you still have a .net application at the end of it, you can still use existing .net components, and integrate CFML with ASP.net, so really whats the difference between that and writing .NET in cobol? Russ -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 14:56 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? No I mean, using CFML in BD.NET is not really developing .NET, it's ColdFusion which just happens to be using .NET. Just like developing ColdFusion on Adobe ColdFusion is not developing in Java (not explicitly anyway) "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 14:22:10 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? You can develop .NET in many languages, I do not think there is any distinction vetween using VB.NET are reall programmers and J#.NET are not -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 11:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? If only it were that easy :-) Sure you are using .NET under the hood but I don't think you can label yourself a .NET programmer any more than we can call ourselves Java programmers by only using ColdFusion syntax etc. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 11:30:42 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Personally I just use BlueDragon, which means I can call myself a .NET developer without having to learn a new language. -- Snake -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 08:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Ultimately we can all chime in with our experiences with .NET (some just with an anti-MS stance whom have had no experience with it) and it could go on indefinitely:-) let's not... I have never seen it as a .NET v ColdFusion / Java thing as to be honest we use whatever is best fit for that current problem. We are, at present using an ASP/.NET CMS system with ColdFusion and Java quite happily. Whenever we have done work in .NET I have found it painful to see just how much code it takes to do what I can do in ColdFusion with 2-3 lines - we are spoiled as ColdFusion developers and we are paying for this ease of use - this is good in my opinion, I have no problem paying for the ingenuity of the Adobe ColdFusion engineers... Keep up the good work. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 07:49:0
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
No I mean, using CFML in BD.NET is not really developing .NET, it's ColdFusion which just happens to be using .NET. Just like developing ColdFusion on Adobe ColdFusion is not developing in Java (not explicitly anyway) "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 14:22:10 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? You can develop .NET in many languages, I do not think there is any distinction vetween using VB.NET are reall programmers and J#.NET are not -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 11:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? If only it were that easy :-) Sure you are using .NET under the hood but I don't think you can label yourself a .NET programmer any more than we can call ourselves Java programmers by only using ColdFusion syntax etc. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 11:30:42 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Personally I just use BlueDragon, which means I can call myself a .NET developer without having to learn a new language. -- Snake -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 08:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Ultimately we can all chime in with our experiences with .NET (some just with an anti-MS stance whom have had no experience with it) and it could go on indefinitely:-) let's not... I have never seen it as a .NET v ColdFusion / Java thing as to be honest we use whatever is best fit for that current problem. We are, at present using an ASP/.NET CMS system with ColdFusion and Java quite happily. Whenever we have done work in .NET I have found it painful to see just how much code it takes to do what I can do in ColdFusion with 2-3 lines - we are spoiled as ColdFusion developers and we are paying for this ease of use - this is good in my opinion, I have no problem paying for the ingenuity of the Adobe ColdFusion engineers... Keep up the good work. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 07:49:01 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? I def' agree that learning .NET is not an easy task. If you know JS, Actionscript, Java, etc (an ECMA language) picking up C# won't be too difficult. Learning all of the libraries in .NET is simply an astounding task but once you know ASP.NET you're golden for all things ASP.NET. CF developers can get by without Java. I've not had to use it
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
You can develop .NET in many languages, I do not think there is any distinction vetween using VB.NET are reall programmers and J#.NET are not -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 11:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? If only it were that easy :-) Sure you are using .NET under the hood but I don't think you can label yourself a .NET programmer any more than we can call ourselves Java programmers by only using ColdFusion syntax etc. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 11:30:42 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Personally I just use BlueDragon, which means I can call myself a .NET developer without having to learn a new language. -- Snake -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 08:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Ultimately we can all chime in with our experiences with .NET (some just with an anti-MS stance whom have had no experience with it) and it could go on indefinitely:-) let's not... I have never seen it as a .NET v ColdFusion / Java thing as to be honest we use whatever is best fit for that current problem. We are, at present using an ASP/.NET CMS system with ColdFusion and Java quite happily. Whenever we have done work in .NET I have found it painful to see just how much code it takes to do what I can do in ColdFusion with 2-3 lines - we are spoiled as ColdFusion developers and we are paying for this ease of use - this is good in my opinion, I have no problem paying for the ingenuity of the Adobe ColdFusion engineers... Keep up the good work. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 07:49:01 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? I def' agree that learning .NET is not an easy task. If you know JS, Actionscript, Java, etc (an ECMA language) picking up C# won't be too difficult. Learning all of the libraries in .NET is simply an astounding task but once you know ASP.NET you're golden for all things ASP.NET. CF developers can get by without Java. I've not had to use it but maybe 5 times in about 4 years and some of those were repeat instances. :-) So, you are right. They, CF developers, get by without extending CF. I'm sure if they didn't have to learn a completely different language they would def' use some of the more advanced features which Java allows. No, you are absoutely right about the product demos. I thought about that but with limited knowledge I did a few of the things he did in 20 minutes when I was learning ASP.NET (namely the grid with the updates, paging, sorting, and a couple other things). No sweat on the preso. I know it can take work to get one together. We have an authentication framework/setup as well so I def' know what you mean. It is common to build things once so you can use it over and over. Yes, with the security you may need to go custom. Going custom is much easier though, if you know those libraries/classes. A few good one's are already baked in though. If not, the community most likely have already built it (which could be another argument; lol). ASP.NET is like Flex. You can do as little or as much as you want with the high level stuff. You
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
If only it were that easy :-) Sure you are using .NET under the hood but I don't think you can label yourself a .NET programmer any more than we can call ourselves Java programmers by only using ColdFusion syntax etc. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Snake To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 11:30:42 2006 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Personally I just use BlueDragon, which means I can call myself a .NET developer without having to learn a new language. -- Snake -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 08:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Ultimately we can all chime in with our experiences with .NET (some just with an anti-MS stance whom have had no experience with it) and it could go on indefinitely:-) let's not... I have never seen it as a .NET v ColdFusion / Java thing as to be honest we use whatever is best fit for that current problem. We are, at present using an ASP/.NET CMS system with ColdFusion and Java quite happily. Whenever we have done work in .NET I have found it painful to see just how much code it takes to do what I can do in ColdFusion with 2-3 lines - we are spoiled as ColdFusion developers and we are paying for this ease of use - this is good in my opinion, I have no problem paying for the ingenuity of the Adobe ColdFusion engineers... Keep up the good work. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 07:49:01 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? I def' agree that learning .NET is not an easy task. If you know JS, Actionscript, Java, etc (an ECMA language) picking up C# won't be too difficult. Learning all of the libraries in .NET is simply an astounding task but once you know ASP.NET you're golden for all things ASP.NET. CF developers can get by without Java. I've not had to use it but maybe 5 times in about 4 years and some of those were repeat instances. :-) So, you are right. They, CF developers, get by without extending CF. I'm sure if they didn't have to learn a completely different language they would def' use some of the more advanced features which Java allows. No, you are absoutely right about the product demos. I thought about that but with limited knowledge I did a few of the things he did in 20 minutes when I was learning ASP.NET (namely the grid with the updates, paging, sorting, and a couple other things). No sweat on the preso. I know it can take work to get one together. We have an authentication framework/setup as well so I def' know what you mean. It is common to build things once so you can use it over and over. Yes, with the security you may need to go custom. Going custom is much easier though, if you know those libraries/classes. A few good one's are already baked in though. If not, the community most likely have already built it (which could be another argument; lol). ASP.NET is like Flex. You can do as little or as much as you want with the high level stuff. You can get granular with the C# and extend the current code to make it do what you want. The custom controls are pretty amazing, in terms of simplicity. Yeah, I've had to use onRequestStart previously (due to the Remoting issue). We use .NET for WS so never tried it with CF but it makes since that if it is br
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Personally I just use BlueDragon, which means I can call myself a .NET developer without having to learn a new language. -- Snake -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 September 2006 08:44 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Ultimately we can all chime in with our experiences with .NET (some just with an anti-MS stance whom have had no experience with it) and it could go on indefinitely:-) let's not... I have never seen it as a .NET v ColdFusion / Java thing as to be honest we use whatever is best fit for that current problem. We are, at present using an ASP/.NET CMS system with ColdFusion and Java quite happily. Whenever we have done work in .NET I have found it painful to see just how much code it takes to do what I can do in ColdFusion with 2-3 lines - we are spoiled as ColdFusion developers and we are paying for this ease of use - this is good in my opinion, I have no problem paying for the ingenuity of the Adobe ColdFusion engineers... Keep up the good work. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 07:49:01 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? I def' agree that learning .NET is not an easy task. If you know JS, Actionscript, Java, etc (an ECMA language) picking up C# won't be too difficult. Learning all of the libraries in .NET is simply an astounding task but once you know ASP.NET you're golden for all things ASP.NET. CF developers can get by without Java. I've not had to use it but maybe 5 times in about 4 years and some of those were repeat instances. :-) So, you are right. They, CF developers, get by without extending CF. I'm sure if they didn't have to learn a completely different language they would def' use some of the more advanced features which Java allows. No, you are absoutely right about the product demos. I thought about that but with limited knowledge I did a few of the things he did in 20 minutes when I was learning ASP.NET (namely the grid with the updates, paging, sorting, and a couple other things). No sweat on the preso. I know it can take work to get one together. We have an authentication framework/setup as well so I def' know what you mean. It is common to build things once so you can use it over and over. Yes, with the security you may need to go custom. Going custom is much easier though, if you know those libraries/classes. A few good one's are already baked in though. If not, the community most likely have already built it (which could be another argument; lol). ASP.NET is like Flex. You can do as little or as much as you want with the high level stuff. You can get granular with the C# and extend the current code to make it do what you want. The custom controls are pretty amazing, in terms of simplicity. Yeah, I've had to use onRequestStart previously (due to the Remoting issue). We use .NET for WS so never tried it with CF but it makes since that if it is broken for Remoting it is for WS too. We use onRequestStart for authentication but cflogin definitely isn't an option simply due to the redirect issue and the cookies not saving. I hate that. Good to know it is easy to secure the WS. CF has much to be desired in way of Application.cfc. 7 is a great move in that direction. No doubt views can be arduous to get right and the core code may need to be adjusted. For instance, .NET CF may not need to use some heavy lifting code since the app is most likely a very scaled down version. If done right, you can package your files separate (dll's) and only include them as needed. Understandably you can't run .NET CF on a wide array of phones. As said, the market isn't there for mass usage but there are a great number of people on Windows Mobile so there is a large market. I don't know for sure but I'd say Java has the mobile on lock for right now with Flash Lite making good ground. Yeah, most developers don't need to buy CF. It is the small shops that are considering CF but choose otherwise because they have a dedicated box and don't want to pony up for a lice
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Ultimately we can all chime in with our experiences with .NET (some just with an anti-MS stance whom have had no experience with it) and it could go on indefinitely:-) let's not... I have never seen it as a .NET v ColdFusion / Java thing as to be honest we use whatever is best fit for that current problem. We are, at present using an ASP/.NET CMS system with ColdFusion and Java quite happily. Whenever we have done work in .NET I have found it painful to see just how much code it takes to do what I can do in ColdFusion with 2-3 lines - we are spoiled as ColdFusion developers and we are paying for this ease of use - this is good in my opinion, I have no problem paying for the ingenuity of the Adobe ColdFusion engineers... Keep up the good work. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Sat Sep 30 07:49:01 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? I def' agree that learning .NET is not an easy task. If you know JS, Actionscript, Java, etc (an ECMA language) picking up C# won't be too difficult. Learning all of the libraries in .NET is simply an astounding task but once you know ASP.NET you're golden for all things ASP.NET. CF developers can get by without Java. I've not had to use it but maybe 5 times in about 4 years and some of those were repeat instances. :-) So, you are right. They, CF developers, get by without extending CF. I'm sure if they didn't have to learn a completely different language they would def' use some of the more advanced features which Java allows. No, you are absoutely right about the product demos. I thought about that but with limited knowledge I did a few of the things he did in 20 minutes when I was learning ASP.NET (namely the grid with the updates, paging, sorting, and a couple other things). No sweat on the preso. I know it can take work to get one together. We have an authentication framework/setup as well so I def' know what you mean. It is common to build things once so you can use it over and over. Yes, with the security you may need to go custom. Going custom is much easier though, if you know those libraries/classes. A few good one's are already baked in though. If not, the community most likely have already built it (which could be another argument; lol). ASP.NET is like Flex. You can do as little or as much as you want with the high level stuff. You can get granular with the C# and extend the current code to make it do what you want. The custom controls are pretty amazing, in terms of simplicity. Yeah, I've had to use onRequestStart previously (due to the Remoting issue). We use .NET for WS so never tried it with CF but it makes since that if it is broken for Remoting it is for WS too. We use onRequestStart for authentication but cflogin definitely isn't an option simply due to the redirect issue and the cookies not saving. I hate that. Good to know it is easy to secure the WS. CF has much to be desired in way of Application.cfc. 7 is a great move in that direction. No doubt views can be arduous to get right and the core code may need to be adjusted. For instance, .NET CF may not need to use some heavy lifting code since the app is most likely a very scaled down version. If done right, you can package your files separate (dll's) and only include them as needed. Understandably you can't run .NET CF on a wide array of phones. As said, the market isn't there for mass usage but there are a great number of people on Windows Mobile so there is a large market. I don't know for sure but I'd say Java has the mobile on lock for right now with Flash Lite making good ground. Yeah, most developers don't need to buy CF. It is the small shops that are considering CF but choose otherwise because they have a dedicated box and don't want to pony up for a license. Coo on the respect statement. I appreciate your responses/time. We are pretty much working with the same mindset here, with some differences based on experience/history. On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > What I mean by integrate is more-so an extendin
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I def' agree that learning .NET is not an easy task. If you know JS, Actionscript, Java, etc (an ECMA language) picking up C# won't be too difficult. Learning all of the libraries in .NET is simply an astounding task but once you know ASP.NET you're golden for all things ASP.NET. CF developers can get by without Java. I've not had to use it but maybe 5 times in about 4 years and some of those were repeat instances. :-) So, you are right. They, CF developers, get by without extending CF. I'm sure if they didn't have to learn a completely different language they would def' use some of the more advanced features which Java allows. No, you are absoutely right about the product demos. I thought about that but with limited knowledge I did a few of the things he did in 20 minutes when I was learning ASP.NET (namely the grid with the updates, paging, sorting, and a couple other things). No sweat on the preso. I know it can take work to get one together. We have an authentication framework/setup as well so I def' know what you mean. It is common to build things once so you can use it over and over. Yes, with the security you may need to go custom. Going custom is much easier though, if you know those libraries/classes. A few good one's are already baked in though. If not, the community most likely have already built it (which could be another argument; lol). ASP.NET is like Flex. You can do as little or as much as you want with the high level stuff. You can get granular with the C# and extend the current code to make it do what you want. The custom controls are pretty amazing, in terms of simplicity. Yeah, I've had to use onRequestStart previously (due to the Remoting issue). We use .NET for WS so never tried it with CF but it makes since that if it is broken for Remoting it is for WS too. We use onRequestStart for authentication but cflogin definitely isn't an option simply due to the redirect issue and the cookies not saving. I hate that. Good to know it is easy to secure the WS. CF has much to be desired in way of Application.cfc. 7 is a great move in that direction. No doubt views can be arduous to get right and the core code may need to be adjusted. For instance, .NET CF may not need to use some heavy lifting code since the app is most likely a very scaled down version. If done right, you can package your files separate (dll's) and only include them as needed. Understandably you can't run .NET CF on a wide array of phones. As said, the market isn't there for mass usage but there are a great number of people on Windows Mobile so there is a large market. I don't know for sure but I'd say Java has the mobile on lock for right now with Flash Lite making good ground. Yeah, most developers don't need to buy CF. It is the small shops that are considering CF but choose otherwise because they have a dedicated box and don't want to pony up for a license. Coo on the respect statement. I appreciate your responses/time. We are pretty much working with the same mindset here, with some differences based on experience/history. On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > What I mean by integrate is more-so an extending. Without > > knowing Java, can you handle that with ease (being the key > > part)? Also, can a non-advanced user do it? (another key part) > > No, probably not. However, learning CF and Java seems to be about the same > amount of work as learning .NET. In addition, most CF programmers can get > by > without the complexity of either Java or .NET. > > > None of that stuff was out of the ordinary and yes, IIS 7 > > isn't out yet. I don't think I made mention of it being out > > of the ordinary either. Doing all of it in 2 hours with > > talking, etc included? CF out of the box can't do it. > > The world of product demos is a lot like Quake Done Quick > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_done_Quick). You can do a hell of a > lot > in two hours, with enough prior preparation. > > > I'd be highly interested in seeing you do this. We can setup > > a Breezo and get you rockin' for the world to see. Just let > > me know when you want to make it happen and we can do so. > > If/once you do it, I will sing your praises, as I previously > > said I would. > > Not to be indelicate, but that would be work, and for that I would require > payment. This is exactly why companies like Adobe and Microsoft have > product > evangelists, who pretty much do that sort of thing for a living. > > > Tracking a session variable isn't all that took place. There > > was roles based authentication, etc which isn't done with the > > snap of a finger in CF. > > No, it probably wouldn't be done with the snap of a finger, I agree. But > it > wouldn't be that hard, either, and once you'd done it you wouldn't need to > rethink it the next time you were faced with the same problem. For > example, > here at Fig Leaf we've used the same authentication/authorization > functionality in many custom applications, in a format that's mo
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Russ, you seriously have to look at how ASP.NET does it. You can edit the web.config and with your choice of language (c#, vb, etc) you can write a custom handler. NOT ALL CF DEVELOPERS DON'T KNOW JAVA. All ASP.NETdevelopers (regardless of language) can write a custom handler. Seriously, anyone reading this post that doesn't know both ASP.NET and CF shouldn't try to compare features. No one is saying CF can't do what ASP.NETcan do. The issue is about, mainly, speed here. Some of the things you can do in ASP.NET can be done in CF, PHP, etc but how easy it is to implement is key. On 9/29/06, Russ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If CF is deployed on Linux, half of your support would not be needed. If > you want to write some custom handlers, you can do those in java and plug > them into jrun. Nothing special about .NET here. > > Personally, I would like an example of a memory leak in CF. I don't doubt > that a lot of enterprises use .NET, but that's mostly due to microsoft's > marketing and getting .NET into schools and universities, something that > macromedia is not doing with CF. > > Personally, I would like an example of CF/Java code that causes a memory > leak. > > Russ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:30 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on > > this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. CF. > > It's to respond to Dave's comments. > > > > I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) > and > > DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, > > it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government > > agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a > > lot, so CF is a good place to be. > > > > However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in > the > > enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for > > Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use > > ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've > > supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming > > tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's > > not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone > > pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these > > features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to > the > > System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session > state > > stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify > them; > > .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL > > database; interoperability between classes written in different > languages; > > and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by > > anybody. > > > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that > they > > are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how > to > > capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that > > caused it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact > object > > that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around > > it. When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular > > groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated > > windows authentication with a single sign on and your code can be > > protected using NTFS permissions. > > > > Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing > > some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the > enterprise > > is where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big > companies > > on our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, > MS > > will be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level > of > > support like that from anybody else. > > > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When > you > > write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using JRUN and > > CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our professional support > > costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you have a seriously > > important application that needs to be fi
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Russ here is a memory leak example on CF: Try running text processing intenisve application (log parser) on CF 6.1 on Solaris... Has a big time memory leak, will crash. Run the same code on CF 6.1. on Windows Server 2003 - stable. Here is your example. I am sure other platforms are not perfect, but you asked for a CF example, TK -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? If CF is deployed on Linux, half of your support would not be needed. If you want to write some custom handlers, you can do those in java and plug them into jrun. Nothing special about .NET here. Personally, I would like an example of a memory leak in CF. I don't doubt that a lot of enterprises use .NET, but that's mostly due to microsoft's marketing and getting .NET into schools and universities, something that macromedia is not doing with CF. Personally, I would like an example of CF/Java code that causes a memory leak. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:30 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on > this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. CF. > It's to respond to Dave's comments. > > I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) and > DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, > it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government > agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a > lot, so CF is a good place to be. > > However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in the > enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for > Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use > ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've > supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming > tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's > not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone > pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these > features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to the > System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session state > stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify them; > .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL > database; interoperability between classes written in different languages; > and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by > anybody. > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that they > are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how to > capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that > caused it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact object > that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around > it. When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular > groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated > windows authentication with a single sign on and your code can be > protected using NTFS permissions. > > Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing > some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the enterprise > is where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big companies > on our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, MS > will be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level of > support like that from anybody else. > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When you > write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using JRUN and > CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our professional support > costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you have a seriously > important application that needs to be fixed NOW. > > Here are a few companies that I've had cases for, recently: > Johnson & Johnson > Fidelity Financial > ExxonMobil > Federal Reserve Back > State Government of Masschusettes > Parliament of Canada > AARP > > > We don't need a list like Ben Forta's. We're big time enterprise, way > bigger than Dave would have you believe. We don't count the number of > companies using .NET, we don't have to. Just search for the numbers of > jobs available, that will tell you all you need to kno
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
That's just wrong. Over 99% of our support is not about bugs in the products we have, it's about how people are using them. I can't count the number of people who can't configure permissions properly. But when you can't do it, we're there to fix your problems. Linux Corp. isn't there to help. It doesn't take much to create a memory leak - just try placing a lot of data in a session variable and let 1000s of people hit your site. Your process memory will grow entirely out of control. I didn't write to pick on CF, I just wanted to point out that MS is heavy into enterprise because, as someone pointed out, it's an end-to-end solution. Their stuff all works together, and if it doesn't, we fix it. - Matt - Original Message - From: "Russ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:01 PM Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > If CF is deployed on Linux, half of your support would not be needed. If > you want to write some custom handlers, you can do those in java and plug > them into jrun. Nothing special about .NET here. > > Personally, I would like an example of a memory leak in CF. I don't doubt > that a lot of enterprises use .NET, but that's mostly due to microsoft's > marketing and getting .NET into schools and universities, something that > macromedia is not doing with CF. > > Personally, I would like an example of CF/Java code that causes a memory > leak. > > Russ > >> -Original Message- >> From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:30 PM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? >> >> Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on >> this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. CF. >> It's to respond to Dave's comments. >> >> I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) >> and >> DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, >> it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government >> agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a >> lot, so CF is a good place to be. >> >> However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in >> the >> enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for >> Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use >> ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've >> supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming >> tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's >> not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone >> pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these >> features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to >> the >> System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session >> state >> stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify >> them; >> .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL >> database; interoperability between classes written in different >> languages; >> and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by >> anybody. >> >> One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that they >> are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how >> to >> capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that >> caused it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact object >> that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around >> it. When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular >> groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated >> windows authentication with a single sign on and your code can be >> protected using NTFS permissions. >> >> Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing >> some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the enterprise >> is where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big >> companies >> on our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, >> MS >> will be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level of >> support like that from anybody else. >> >> But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When >> you >&
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Before I get started, I should probably again state that I do like quite a few Microsoft products. And, I'm not trying to be combative. But anyway ... > I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if > I'm wrong) and DC is strong into CF with all of the > government agencies. That's great, it's a good place to be > becuase CF might be cheaper for a government agency to > produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a > lot, so CF is a good place to be. Yes, that's correct. You do know that government agencies are, well, big, right? I mean, DoD and DHS aren't necessarily concerned about producing websites on the cheap. > However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not > strong in the enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier > technical support for Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. > The list of companies that use ASP.NET reads basically the > same as the Fortune 500. That means ... absolutely nothing. You can find all sorts of products used by all sorts of companies. The real question is, how many of those companies are using ASP.NET for their line-of-business applications? Because, after all, the list of companies using Java reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. Surely all these companies aren't running their line-of-business applications on both platforms simultaneously? I'm not trying to say that Microsoft isn't in the enterprise - after all, pretty much everyone runs Windows desktops. However, it's simply absurd to suggest that .NET is comparable to Java within the enterprise. Maybe it will be within a few years, but it isn't today. > It's not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, > as someone pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the > entire OS. That's good stuff, but only useful to the extent that you're using that OS for everything. Microsoft products provide excellent integration with other Microsoft products, but average integration with other products. > Event logging to the System and Application event logs, http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-09-2001/jw-0928-ntmessages-p2.html > or a custom log; or syslog? http://www.javaworld.com/jw-04-2001/jw-0406-syslog.html > HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify them; In Java-land, they call those servlet filters. They work fine with CF: http://cfdj.sys-con.com/read/41574.htm > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products > is that they are supported, constantly. I'm sorry, but I fell out of my chair reading that. There are plenty - plenty - of open bugs in Microsoft products that give me trouble daily, as a developer. I'm sure they'll get around to them eventually, by selling me Vista and Longhorn. I'm still working with people who haven't migrated from classic ASP to ASP.NET yet. > When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact object > that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work > around it. About a month ago, I did that exact thing for a client who'd just gone into production with a very large, well known public site, using SeeFusion 4. Frankly, I was a bit shocked to be able to identify the problem so quickly. Best $250 or so I ever spent. > When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular > groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use > integrated windows authentication with a single sign on and your > code can be protected using NTFS permissions. That's great, if your corporate internet is using Active Directory. What if it's not? Fortunately, if it is, it's trivially easy to let CF use that same authentication and NTFS permissions, etc. Of course, many enterprises simply do not allow public-facing IIS servers (whether that's really justified or not), so we're often limited to purely intranet uses for them. Oh well. > But even better, we have professional support for the little > guy. When you write you own memory leak (and believe me, it > can be done using JRUN and CF) we can tell you why that > exists as well. Our professional support costs some money > ($245) but that's cheap when you have a seriously important > application that needs to be fixed NOW. Oddly enough, I only typically require Microsoft support when Microsoft products break. For example, when the MS06-040 patch for Windows Server 2003 SP1 came out, CF couldn't be restarted on servers after it had been stopped, unless I reduced the JVM heap size to 256MB or so. Fortunately, after a few hours with PSS, I was able to get the unreleased hotfix to fix the problem introduced by the patch. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/924054 Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
If CF is deployed on Linux, half of your support would not be needed. If you want to write some custom handlers, you can do those in java and plug them into jrun. Nothing special about .NET here. Personally, I would like an example of a memory leak in CF. I don't doubt that a lot of enterprises use .NET, but that's mostly due to microsoft's marketing and getting .NET into schools and universities, something that macromedia is not doing with CF. Personally, I would like an example of CF/Java code that causes a memory leak. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:30 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on > this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. CF. > It's to respond to Dave's comments. > > I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) and > DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, > it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government > agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a > lot, so CF is a good place to be. > > However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in the > enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for > Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use > ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've > supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming > tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's > not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone > pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these > features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to the > System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session state > stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify them; > .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL > database; interoperability between classes written in different languages; > and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by > anybody. > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that they > are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how to > capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that > caused it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact object > that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around > it. When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular > groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated > windows authentication with a single sign on and your code can be > protected using NTFS permissions. > > Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing > some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the enterprise > is where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big companies > on our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, MS > will be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level of > support like that from anybody else. > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When you > write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using JRUN and > CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our professional support > costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you have a seriously > important application that needs to be fixed NOW. > > Here are a few companies that I've had cases for, recently: > Johnson & Johnson > Fidelity Financial > ExxonMobil > Federal Reserve Back > State Government of Masschusettes > Parliament of Canada > AARP > > > We don't need a list like Ben Forta's. We're big time enterprise, way > bigger than Dave would have you believe. We don't count the number of > companies using .NET, we don't have to. Just search for the numbers of > jobs available, that will tell you all you need to know. > > > - Matt Small > > >It's always a bit unsettling for me to hear Microsoft products and > >"enterprise" in the same sentence, even though I've long believed that > they > >can work in the enterprise. And yes, you can build mobile, web and > desktop > >applications with .NET - I'm a big fan of the .NET Compact Framework, > >myself. But you're not building one application at that poin
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Well put. A lil' defensive (understandably) but well put. On 9/29/06, Matthew Small <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on > this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. > CF. It's to respond to Dave's comments. > > I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) and > DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, > it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government agency > to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a lot, so CF > is a good place to be. > > However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in the > enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for > Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use > ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've > supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming tricks > that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's not because > CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone pointed out earlier, > .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these features are very > important at the enterprise level. Event logging to the System and > Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session state stores; > HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify them; .NET > remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL database; > interoperability between classes written in different languages; and most of > all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by anybody. > > One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that they > are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how to > capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that caused > it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact object that the > dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around it. When you > need to secure your intranet applications to particular groups of users that > exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated windows authentication > with a single sign on and your code can be protected using NTFS permissions. > > Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing > some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the enterprise is > where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big companies on > our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, MS will > be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level of support > like that from anybody else. > > But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When you > write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using JRUN and CF) > we can tell you why that exists as well. Our professional support costs > some money ($245) but that's cheap when you have a seriously important > application that needs to be fixed NOW. > > Here are a few companies that I've had cases for, recently: > Johnson & Johnson > Fidelity Financial > ExxonMobil > Federal Reserve Back > State Government of Masschusettes > Parliament of Canada > AARP > > > We don't need a list like Ben Forta's. We're big time enterprise, way > bigger than Dave would have you believe. We don't count the number of > companies using .NET, we don't have to. Just search for the numbers of jobs > available, that will tell you all you need to know. > > > - Matt Small > > >It's always a bit unsettling for me to hear Microsoft products and > >"enterprise" in the same sentence, even though I've long believed that > they > >can work in the enterprise. And yes, you can build mobile, web and > desktop > >applications with .NET - I'm a big fan of the .NET Compact Framework, > >myself. But you're not building one application at that point, you're > >building three applications. Those applications might share some common > >components, and even some of the same presentation logic, but they'll > still > >be three distinct applications. And, aside from the web portions, your > >Microsoft applications will only run on Microsoft products - you'll have > a > >heck of a time deploying your .NET CF apps to Blackberries. > > > >Right now, the enterprise runs Java. CF integrates nicely with Java. You > >will simply not find too much .NET in enterprise environments yet. I'm a > big > >fan of MS products, generally, and I think they're often better than > they're > >credited to be, but unless you buy into the idea of the "Microsoft > stack", > >where everything you use comes from Microsoft, you don't really have > viable > >solutions. Most enterprises have not bought into that idea yet. I don't > know > >if they ever will. > > > >Enterprise products are, and have always been, expensive. I strongly > suspect > >that Adobe would have difficulty selling CF as an enterpr
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Sorry to chime in late, and after Mike said not to... I haven't been on this list in a long time either. However, this isn't about .NET vs. CF. It's to respond to Dave's comments. I know that Dave works in the DC area (please correct me if I'm wrong) and DC is strong into CF with all of the government agencies. That's great, it's a good place to be becuase CF might be cheaper for a government agency to produce website or intranets. I know that they use Solaris a lot, so CF is a good place to be. However, it's simply absurd to suggest that Microsoft is not strong in the enterprise segment. I currently work in Premier technical support for Microsoft supporting ASP.NET and IIS. The list of companies that use ASP.NET reads basically the same as the Fortune 500. I know because I've supported their technical issues, and they do some crazy programming tricks that CF simply isn't capable of, nor can Java do it either. It's not because CF is inferior at what it does, but because, as someone pointed out earlier, .NET can interact with the entire OS. Yes, these features are very important at the enterprise level. Event logging to the System and Application event logs, or a custom log; multiple session state stores; HTTPHandlers that can intercept incoming requests and modify them; .NET remoting; Native support for XML data transformation from the SQL database; interoperability between classes written in different languages; and most of all, enterprise support at a level that cannot be matched by anybody. One of the biggest things that can be said about MS products is that they are supported, constantly. When you have a crash, we can tell you how to capture a memory dump and then tell you exactly the line of code that caused it. When you have a memory leak, we can pick out the exact object that the dev decided there should be millions of and how to work around it. When you need to secure your intranet applications to particular groups of users that exist on your corporate intranet, we use integrated windows authentication with a single sign on and your code can be protected using NTFS permissions. Yes, all of these things are more expensive overall than a guy writing some CF and deploying it to a server. But be assured that the enterprise is where MS is entrenched. Millions of dollars are spent by big companies on our contracts, and it's because they know when something goes wrong, MS will be there to back it up 100%, and we can fix it. There's no level of support like that from anybody else. But even better, we have professional support for the little guy. When you write you own memory leak (and believe me, it can be done using JRUN and CF) we can tell you why that exists as well. Our professional support costs some money ($245) but that's cheap when you have a seriously important application that needs to be fixed NOW. Here are a few companies that I've had cases for, recently: Johnson & Johnson Fidelity Financial ExxonMobil Federal Reserve Back State Government of Masschusettes Parliament of Canada AARP We don't need a list like Ben Forta's. We're big time enterprise, way bigger than Dave would have you believe. We don't count the number of companies using .NET, we don't have to. Just search for the numbers of jobs available, that will tell you all you need to know. - Matt Small >It's always a bit unsettling for me to hear Microsoft products and >"enterprise" in the same sentence, even though I've long believed that they >can work in the enterprise. And yes, you can build mobile, web and desktop >applications with .NET - I'm a big fan of the .NET Compact Framework, >myself. But you're not building one application at that point, you're >building three applications. Those applications might share some common >components, and even some of the same presentation logic, but they'll still >be three distinct applications. And, aside from the web portions, your >Microsoft applications will only run on Microsoft products - you'll have a >heck of a time deploying your .NET CF apps to Blackberries. > >Right now, the enterprise runs Java. CF integrates nicely with Java. You >will simply not find too much .NET in enterprise environments yet. I'm a big >fan of MS products, generally, and I think they're often better than they're >credited to be, but unless you buy into the idea of the "Microsoft stack", >where everything you use comes from Microsoft, you don't really have viable >solutions. Most enterprises have not bought into that idea yet. I don't know >if they ever will. > >Enterprise products are, and have always been, expensive. I strongly suspect >that Adobe would have difficulty selling CF as an enterprise product if they >lowered the price. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> What I mean by integrate is more-so an extending. Without > knowing Java, can you handle that with ease (being the key > part)? Also, can a non-advanced user do it? (another key part) No, probably not. However, learning CF and Java seems to be about the same amount of work as learning .NET. In addition, most CF programmers can get by without the complexity of either Java or .NET. > None of that stuff was out of the ordinary and yes, IIS 7 > isn't out yet. I don't think I made mention of it being out > of the ordinary either. Doing all of it in 2 hours with > talking, etc included? CF out of the box can't do it. The world of product demos is a lot like Quake Done Quick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_done_Quick). You can do a hell of a lot in two hours, with enough prior preparation. > I'd be highly interested in seeing you do this. We can setup > a Breezo and get you rockin' for the world to see. Just let > me know when you want to make it happen and we can do so. > If/once you do it, I will sing your praises, as I previously > said I would. Not to be indelicate, but that would be work, and for that I would require payment. This is exactly why companies like Adobe and Microsoft have product evangelists, who pretty much do that sort of thing for a living. > Tracking a session variable isn't all that took place. There > was roles based authentication, etc which isn't done with the > snap of a finger in CF. No, it probably wouldn't be done with the snap of a finger, I agree. But it wouldn't be that hard, either, and once you'd done it you wouldn't need to rethink it the next time you were faced with the same problem. For example, here at Fig Leaf we've used the same authentication/authorization functionality in many custom applications, in a format that's modular enough to allow very easy reuse within other applications. And, if you're talking about the roles-based authentication functionality described here: http://www.sitepoint.com/article/asp-net-2-security then it's worth pointing out that if you want to do something slightly out of the ordinary, such as authentication against something other than a database or AD, you will be in customization-land once again. But the biggest potential problem here, is the generic problem of code generation. It's great, as long as you want to do exactly what the code generator lets you do. Once you want to do something else, you face an uphill battle against all the stuff that's done automatically for you. This has been somewhat of an issue in my own relatively limited ASP.NET development. > WS in CF is easy. blah.cfc?wsdl is about as easy as it gets. > :-) Integrating your custom authentication is available too. > AGAIN, how long to implement that? Out of the box, your CFC > is not protected by a login screen. If you do something with > onReuqest, maybe but onRequest breaks Remoting calls but I'm > not 100% sure on the same happening to WS. The thing with > what I was saying is he didn't even have do any custom > authentication. It just worked with no code changes major legwork. You can't use the onRequest event with web services or Flash Remoting. However, you can use onRequestStart to perform authentication tests, and you can use any authentication stuff you want, including CFLOGIN, to manage authentication and authorization to your web services just like you would with your regular pages, if you want. So, no extra work needed there. > Yes, those three apps will be separate (web, mobile, > desktop). If done right, your heavy lifting is done in all > three already and you can easily throw a new "view" on top of > it to make it work. For instance, we have an app we're > developing and the desktop app took about 30 minutes to build > (initial version; wasn't robust or anything...just a base > look at things). Well, this is one of those things that tends to be easier said than done. For example, in my experience, the view of a mobile application is so significantly different than that of a normal web or desktop application that you have to do a lot of work to build a new view, and may even need to reconsider how you're doing things beyond the view. > The core code was done already. You are correct with the .NET > CF. It is only for apps that can deploy .NET CF. Although, > the same goes for Flash Lite, etc. If you wanted to be able to deploy on the widest variety of available phones and devices, you wouldn't choose .NET CF. It's as simple as that. No matter what you chose, you'd have a lot of work to get your solution to work on multiple devices, and I prefer the capabilities of Windows Mobile devices to pretty much everything else, but the market share just isn't there yet. > Enterprise can be argued, MS or not. The main part I stress > when I say enterprise is a complete end to end solution. Microsoft is the best in providing an end-to-end solution. Unfortunately, every part involves Windows, which is not a viable choice
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
You can use dll's if you want. There is a command line tool you can use to compile anything in .NET. On 9/29/06, Russ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not sure if it's even possible. Doesn't .NET compile components to > dll's? You can do that from notepad. At the minimum you would need some > kind of JDK. > > Russ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:Neil.Robertson- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:41 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Well you would seriously struggle to develop in .NET without it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > > the > > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > > note > > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or > the > > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you > have > > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > > call > > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > > this > > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: John C. Bland II > > To: CF-Talk > > Sent: Fri Sep 29 19:31:29 2006 > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Dave, I've always stood by that ASP.NET without Visual Studio is > lacking. > > VS > > is the no doubt the major selling point here. Using Notepad would only > be > > for the seasoned developer. > > > > On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > > > > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > > > > expert on say Asp.Net ... > > > > > > I think this largely depends on your background. Visual Studio.NETdoes > > a > > > very good job of making web application development seem to work like > > > traditional desktop application development, so if you have a lot of > > > experience with that, you might well be more productive with ASP.NET. > > > > > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > > > http://www.figleaf.com/ > > > > > > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized > > > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, > > > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. > > > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254823 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> I'm not sure if it's even possible. Doesn't .NET compile > components to dll's? You can do that from notepad. At the > minimum you would need some kind of JDK. The .NET Framework SDK includes a compiler, and it's available as a free download. In addition, there are several useful tools other than Visual Studio.NET; some people actually prefer these tools to Visual Studio. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254821 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I'm not sure if it's even possible. Doesn't .NET compile components to dll's? You can do that from notepad. At the minimum you would need some kind of JDK. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:Neil.Robertson- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:41 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Well you would seriously struggle to develop in .NET without it. > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Fri Sep 29 19:31:29 2006 > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Dave, I've always stood by that ASP.NET without Visual Studio is lacking. > VS > is the no doubt the major selling point here. Using Notepad would only be > for the seasoned developer. > > On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > > > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > > > expert on say Asp.Net ... > > > > I think this largely depends on your background. Visual Studio.NET does > a > > very good job of making web application development seem to work like > > traditional desktop application development, so if you have a lot of > > experience with that, you might well be more productive with ASP.NET. > > > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > > http://www.figleaf.com/ > > > > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized > > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, > > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. > > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254820 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
No doubt. You would probably drown. On 9/29/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Well you would seriously struggle to develop in .NET without it. > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of > the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please > note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the sender or > call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within > this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -Original Message----- > From: John C. Bland II > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Fri Sep 29 19:31:29 2006 > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Dave, I've always stood by that ASP.NET without Visual Studio is lacking. > VS > is the no doubt the major selling point here. Using Notepad would only be > for the seasoned developer. > > On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > > > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > > > expert on say Asp.Net ... > > > > I think this largely depends on your background. Visual Studio.NET does > a > > very good job of making web application development seem to work like > > traditional desktop application development, so if you have a lot of > > experience with that, you might well be more productive with ASP.NET. > > > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > > http://www.figleaf.com/ > > > > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized > > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, > > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. > > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254819 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Well you would seriously struggle to develop in .NET without it. "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Sep 29 19:31:29 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Dave, I've always stood by that ASP.NET without Visual Studio is lacking. VS is the no doubt the major selling point here. Using Notepad would only be for the seasoned developer. On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > > expert on say Asp.Net ... > > I think this largely depends on your background. Visual Studio.NET does a > very good job of making web application development seem to work like > traditional desktop application development, so if you have a lot of > experience with that, you might well be more productive with ASP.NET. > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > http://www.figleaf.com/ > > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254818 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Russ, you are right. As I said offlist to you, learning .NET vs CF is hands down to CF. .NET is so huge in what it can do and all of the calls, etc it can be overwhelming. I'm still learning .NET and I doubt I will be able to get away from saying "I'm learning" for another 8 years. lol. There is just so much you can do with it that you really have to work on projects (client or not) to get the full scope of it. CFEclipse pails in comparison to VS, sorry. The simple fact that no HTML view is built-in makes it lose the battle. You seriously can't respond to this until you've used VS. I was 100% blown away by it. Mind you, CFEclipse is a great product for CF. I'd venture to say the best for core CF development. No direct ftp access and no html view prevent me from using it though. I'm comfortable enough with CF to use Dreamweaver. On 9/29/06, Russ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Personally, I tried to learn .NET a few times, but it seemed pretty > backward > to me, and I have a MS in CS. I'm sure if I really needed to, I could > learn > it and be productive in it, but I doubt it would be as good as CF. > > As far as CF having no IDE, what about CFEclipse? There are also html > ide's > that were discussed here a few weeks ago. > > So you can get a free BlueDragon cf server, use CFEclipse as the editor, > run > the server on linux/apache, use mysql for the db and everything is free. > You just need some place to host your server. The only limit is that the > free BD server doesn't support SSL (but I'm sure I can find a way around > that using apache if I had to). > > You can't say the same about .NET. > > Russ > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:15 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Hi, Phil... > > > > I share your sentiments concerning CF and it's pricing and market share. > > > > There's just no competing with "free"...and although I don't know .NET > > and C# at this point, I doubt seriously that a person equally > experienced > > in .NET and C# would take substantially more time, if any at all, to > > maintain an > > app that was written in that language rather than CF. > > > > I love CF, and without any formal training other than a CF WACK 4.0book, > > this list, and the Internet in general, have been able to write many web > > applications and make a decent living using CFML and CF Server. > > > > I'm a one-man development shop and don't have a corporate budget backing > > my purchases, so the cost of a technology definitely comes into play > > when I consider using it. I look at CF and Dreamweaver (I like > WYSIWYG), > > and I think, hmmmabout $1700...I look at .NET and some of their free > > design tools, which are pretty good, and I think, hmmm...$0... > > > > I've only worked a little with .NET and MS's design tools and I have to > > say, > > I don't like having to learn a new language, etc., and find CF so much > > more > > intuitive. But I'm a smart guy and with some effort, I can learn .NET > and > > C# > > and be just as productive in application production in the end. > > > > With the new tools, etc., that MS is providing to support .NET, it's > > getting > > harder and harder to justify spending so much money on CF. > > > > CF has no IDE, which adds to the cost of using CF, too. > > > > One of the biggest factors in my not embracing .NET yet...this list...I > > searched > > for a .NET list as good as CF-Talk, but couldn't find anything that came > > close. And I know just how important this list has been for me. Maybe > > it's > > because the CF community is smaller than the .Net community, but I > haven't > > found a list to provide the support I would need to transition to .NET, > > yet. > > > > I'm still happily using CF 4.5.2, however, and see no reason to upgrade. > > I don't care how I code for the end user, be it in 4.5 style or the > latest > > and > > greatest .cfc...all I care about is the experience for the end > user...and > > unless > > I'm using FLEX or AJAX, I haven't seen any significant end user > experience > > improvements through the various CF versions. > > > > > > > > A good discussion to have on a Friday... > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Phillip Holme
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Ok. What do non-enterprise people do? Go custom huh? Exactly. There is no global setup there. On 9/29/06, Russ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You still need some sort of central DB server, so it's still putting extra > load on a server (either shared with your regular server or another piece > of > hardware for which you'll have to pay even more $). CF uses JRUN > clustering > which basically communicates from one node to another. I'm not sure which > one is more efficient, but my guess is the JRUN one is. > > You can edit one of the files, and tell JRUN to store session info in the > db, so it's not much harder then doing it in ASP. CF just gives you more > options. > > Russ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:19 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > >I imagine it will be the same with ASP. > > > > DB Session handling in ASP.NET is a native functionality of .NET which > you > > flip the setting in the web.config file and setup your SQL DB that > handles > > only those requests...the process and DB hit are incredibly thin and > fast. > > Remember ADO needs no ODBC bridge (like JDBC). DB hits to MS SQL are > going > > to naturally be faster. > > > > --Phil > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:57 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > There are a few lines that you can add to CF config files and it will > > store > > all session data in the db. I tried it and it proved to be a bit slow, > > and > > I imagine it will be the same with ASP. CF has an arguably better > > solution > > where it shares the data between all the servers directly, instead of > > loading the db server on every request. > > > > Russ > > > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254816 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Johnny: Now you see the inherent dangers in even mentioning another technology on this list. It always gets blown out of proportion and off-topic. I'll keep it short and sweet. Dave Carabetta's response was the most helpful for giving you a resource: http://www.buntel.com/docs/top5reasonstousecf_081506.pdf Other than that, you might want to have your friend also explain that his existing expertise in CFML would save his client the time required to learn the intricacies of the .NET framework and any languages that would have to be learned. I convinced a few clients that way in the past. However, several more insisted on .NET because they had an investment in that technology and weren't willing to invest the resources in expanding to J2EE. If the client is dead set on .NET, there's *usually* not much you can do to sway them. If they're a technically savvy client, you aren't going to (in my experience). Best of luck, and I hope you friend is successful in adding another CF success story. Steve Brownlee http://www.fusioncube.net/ << Read "Death by Canoe" (http://www.fusioncube.net/?p=107) >> -Original Message- From: Johnny Le [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: CF vs. .NET presentations? Hi, Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us some pointers? Thanks. Johnny ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254815 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Dave, I've always stood by that ASP.NET without Visual Studio is lacking. VS is the no doubt the major selling point here. Using Notepad would only be for the seasoned developer. On 9/29/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > > expert on say Asp.Net ... > > I think this largely depends on your background. Visual Studio.NET does a > very good job of making web application development seem to work like > traditional desktop application development, so if you have a lot of > experience with that, you might well be more productive with ASP.NET. > > Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software > http://www.figleaf.com/ > > Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized > instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, > Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. > Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254814 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Actually, .net developers, for a comparable skill level, are usually cheaper than their cf counterparts. I know that because we are out-sourcing cf development like crazy (11 external developers at the moment, I think, and more coming), and we have to justify the added cost each project. Still not that hard to justify, though. On 9/29/06, Russ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Add to that the fact that it will cost a lot more money for the same quality > ..NET developer then a CF one, and you'll see that .NET has a higher TCO then > CF. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254813 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
(Mike, sorry...seems to have a mind of its own. There is some technical talk in Dave's post and mine, here, as well.) Dude, what a long post. lol. I'll try to make sure I respond accordingly. :-) What I mean by integrate is more-so an extending. Without knowing Java, can you handle that with ease (being the key part)? Also, can a non-advanced user do it? (another key part) None of that stuff was out of the ordinary and yes, IIS 7 isn't out yet. I don't think I made mention of it being out of the ordinary either. Doing all of it in 2 hours with talking, etc included? CF out of the box can't do it. I'd be highly interested in seeing you do this. We can setup a Breezo and get you rockin' for the world to see. Just let me know when you want to make it happen and we can do so. If/once you do it, I will sing your praises, as I previously said I would. Tracking a session variable isn't all that took place. There was roles based authentication, etc which isn't done with the snap of a finger in CF. Yes, you could do per page auth in CF. Can you do it from 1 config file? You can, yes but you'd have to write that config file, create the "parsing" engine (if it is xml or ini, etc) to manage the values, and run with it. I've done them before on a smaller scale as well. The thing is, ASP.NETalready has that baked into it. Sure you could write your own and reuse but having to is the thing here. ASP.NET...you don't have to, unless you want to. BTW, this is a moot point for IIS7. web.confg is available to all languages now. A pageable, sortable, Ajax (or not) datagrid is available in other implementations (for CF and PHP; PHP has some impressive one's you can buy). Take that same time to research, buy one, figure out how to customize it, and set it up in your environment is much longer than dropping a grid on a page, setting a class or other styles, and enabling paging, sorting, etc through checkboxes or simple params to the tag. Time is the key here. I'm not saying url rewriting is complicated in CF. Never once did I mention that. What I did was compare the time it would take for you to buy, install, configure ISAPI_Rewrite, and setup your site to use it is much longer than it is to do it in ASP.NET. Speed is the key here. Ray Camden has a great url parser that allows you to use SES url's. I use it often. It isn't rewriting but a great alternative. Again, you could write your own and do all of that for reuse. ASP.NET, you don't have to. (see the theme here) WS in CF is easy. blah.cfc?wsdl is about as easy as it gets. :-) Integrating your custom authentication is available too. AGAIN, how long to implement that? Out of the box, your CFC is not protected by a login screen. If you do something with onReuqest, maybe but onRequest breaks Remoting calls but I'm not 100% sure on the same happening to WS. The thing with what I was saying is he didn't even have do any custom authentication. It just worked with no code changes major legwork. lol @ the etc, etc, etc. As said, none of it is terribly difficult. In 2 hours, no way you can take CF out of the box and build that from scratch. If you can, again, I will sing your praises and am willing to setup the preso whenever you are ready. Yes, those three apps will be separate (web, mobile, desktop). If done right, your heavy lifting is done in all three already and you can easily throw a new "view" on top of it to make it work. For instance, we have an app we're developing and the desktop app took about 30 minutes to build (initial version; wasn't robust or anything...just a base look at things). The core code was done already. You are correct with the .NET CF. It is only for apps that can deploy .NET CF. Although, the same goes for Flash Lite, etc. Enterprise can be argued, MS or not. The main part I stress when I say enterprise is a complete end to end solution. Yes, CF can integrate nicely with Java. I've always been impressed by it. CF developers on this list, raise your hand if you know Java? (my hand is down) Raise your hand if you are going to learn Java just to extend CF development? (my hand is half-way up. been wanting to for years but no time for a new language I will barely use) That is the key there. Java is a completely different language to learn. ASP.NET has C# and that's all you need to know (or vb, j#, etc). You are right. Java to .NET would be a better comparison. Java can run in many different environments but it seems they whole "write once, deploy everwhere" "mantra" never really took over the world like it seemed it was supposed to. Trust me, as said, I could care less about the price changing. I'd love it to...seriously. I know the issue of taking away millions of dollars in revenue for the sake of the community isn't realistic. Also selling it as Enterprise would be harder. You are on the money here. I should clarify that "Price is the biggest problem with CF" statement. That 100% means in the mind of the developer. PHP developers would have no
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I bought 4.5 when it first came out...haven't needed to upgrade. (I don't upgrade just to give a vendor money) And...I've never used a competitor's product...I'd say that's loyal. Do you consider someone loyal only if they buy every new version of CF that comes out, even if the newer versions provide no benefits? (And remember, I'm talking about application end user benefits, which I don't see much different between 4.5 and 7 on the end user side of apps) I'd consider myself much more loyal than some who has never paid Allaire/Macormedia/Adobe $1300...(and yes, Adobe has benefitted from the $1300 I paid to Allaire many years ago...) Rick -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? On 9/29/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree with your bottom-line, John, that it's mostly > a matter of money...free vs. $1200, minimum. > > For me, it's not so much about functionality...I'm still > building websites and apps on CF 4.5 as fast as I can > program them...and I've still never used Verity or other > functions of CF. > > I hate the thought of learning a new language, however...Adobe, > please give me a discount as a loyal user! Half price would > be great! you have yet to buy a product from Adobe. how exactly are you a loyal user? :) -- Charlie Griefer "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed." ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254811 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> Correct. But my main point was not for a onesey twosey > environment / shop. > It's the big sites that have 30+ boxes. An extra MS SQL read > is a lot less than 6k per box (example: $180,000.00 vs. an > extra SQL read 5,000.00 or so). You know, the big sites don't necessarily scale out, they also scale up. Windows, unfortunately, does not do this especially well. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254810 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Russ, Correct. But my main point was not for a onesey twosey environment / shop. It's the big sites that have 30+ boxes. An extra MS SQL read is a lot less than 6k per box (example: $180,000.00 vs. an extra SQL read 5,000.00 or so). The session is almost invisible by way of consumed resources on the network and on the servers. *The SQL .NET Data provider removes the data access layer: http://dotnetguru.org/articles/us/JDBCvsADO.NET/JDBC_ADONET.pdf -- I am not saying CF is bad. The entire point of my posts is simply an appeal to Abode for pricing reform in order to get more market share and make more CF jobs for everyone :) --Phil -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? You still need some sort of central DB server, so it's still putting extra load on a server (either shared with your regular server or another piece of hardware for which you'll have to pay even more $). CF uses JRUN clustering which basically communicates from one node to another. I'm not sure which one is more efficient, but my guess is the JRUN one is. You can edit one of the files, and tell JRUN to store session info in the db, so it's not much harder then doing it in ASP. CF just gives you more options. Russ ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254808 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> Remember ADO needs no ODBC bridge (like JDBC). DB hits to MS > SQL are going to naturally be faster. The DataDirect MS SQL driver used by CF is a type 4 JDBC driver. It doesn't use ODBC. I suspect that the ADO driver may well be faster, but I don't know if it's enough faster to make a significant difference. Microsoft's own benchmarking article on TheServerSide.com is a little fuzzy on that: http://www.theserverside.net/tt/articles/showarticle.tss?id=NET2BMNovember On the other hand, JDBC appears to work better against Oracle than ADO does - I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254807 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
You don't have to use the SQL Server drivers that come with CF. I know people using different JDBC drivers, and I know I am personally using ADO to connect in one instance. > -Original Message- > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:48 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Also the JDBC-ODBC bridge is not used when talking to SQL server. I'm not > sure what the performance difference is between JDBC and ODBC, maybe > someone > can pitch in here. > > Russ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:19 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > >I imagine it will be the same with ASP. > > > > DB Session handling in ASP.NET is a native functionality of .NET which > you > > flip the setting in the web.config file and setup your SQL DB that > handles > > only those requests...the process and DB hit are incredibly thin and > fast. > > Remember ADO needs no ODBC bridge (like JDBC). DB hits to MS SQL are > going > > to naturally be faster. > > > > --Phil > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:57 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > There are a few lines that you can add to CF config files and it will > > store > > all session data in the db. I tried it and it proved to be a bit slow, > > and > > I imagine it will be the same with ASP. CF has an arguably better > > solution > > where it shares the data between all the servers directly, instead of > > loading the db server on every request. > > > > Russ > > > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254806 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Also the JDBC-ODBC bridge is not used when talking to SQL server. I'm not sure what the performance difference is between JDBC and ODBC, maybe someone can pitch in here. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:19 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > >I imagine it will be the same with ASP. > > DB Session handling in ASP.NET is a native functionality of .NET which you > flip the setting in the web.config file and setup your SQL DB that handles > only those requests...the process and DB hit are incredibly thin and fast. > Remember ADO needs no ODBC bridge (like JDBC). DB hits to MS SQL are going > to naturally be faster. > > --Phil > > > > -Original Message- > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:57 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > There are a few lines that you can add to CF config files and it will > store > all session data in the db. I tried it and it proved to be a bit slow, > and > I imagine it will be the same with ASP. CF has an arguably better > solution > where it shares the data between all the servers directly, instead of > loading the db server on every request. > > Russ > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254804 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
You still need some sort of central DB server, so it's still putting extra load on a server (either shared with your regular server or another piece of hardware for which you'll have to pay even more $). CF uses JRUN clustering which basically communicates from one node to another. I'm not sure which one is more efficient, but my guess is the JRUN one is. You can edit one of the files, and tell JRUN to store session info in the db, so it's not much harder then doing it in ASP. CF just gives you more options. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:19 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > >I imagine it will be the same with ASP. > > DB Session handling in ASP.NET is a native functionality of .NET which you > flip the setting in the web.config file and setup your SQL DB that handles > only those requests...the process and DB hit are incredibly thin and fast. > Remember ADO needs no ODBC bridge (like JDBC). DB hits to MS SQL are going > to naturally be faster. > > --Phil > > > > -Original Message- > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:57 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > There are a few lines that you can add to CF config files and it will > store > all session data in the db. I tried it and it proved to be a bit slow, > and > I imagine it will be the same with ASP. CF has an arguably better > solution > where it shares the data between all the servers directly, instead of > loading the db server on every request. > > Russ > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254803 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I meant community, sorry. > -Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:11 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > I'm already on it. I'll respond once the convo moves over. > > On 9/29/06, loathe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Sign up on CF-Talk if you would. > > > > I'd like to continue this. > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:43 PM > > > To: CF-Talk > > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. > > > > > > WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. > lol. > > > There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own session > > > handler > > > OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, use > > file > > > system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what > ASP.NET > > > offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write > a > > > service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF > > > developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how to > do > > it > > > in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. > > > > > > First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so > > no > > > need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very > usable > > > for > > > the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things that > > is). > > > Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your > > own > > > controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. > > > > > > ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the > OS > > > MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. > > > > > > Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just to > > argue. > > > I > > > was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is no > > > battle > > > there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET > is > > > not > > > a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the comparison > > you > > > make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That is my > > only > > > point. > > > > > > I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what most > > people > > > have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. I > > think > > > it > > > would be the best decision for CF and the community but who cares. > We're > > a > > > small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF > > license(s). > > > > > > No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. > > > > > > To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use it > > often. > > > Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write about > it. > > > With > > > all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed CF > when > > > you > > > get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do > a > > > ..NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am not > > turning > > > my > > > back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I was you > > > less > > > than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Talk" > > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM > > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > > > > > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > > > > > > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I > > > needed > > > > more than what it offered I could extend my application using things > > > like > > > > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are > out > > > > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > > > > > > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same > platform? > > > No > > > >
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
>I imagine it will be the same with ASP. DB Session handling in ASP.NET is a native functionality of .NET which you flip the setting in the web.config file and setup your SQL DB that handles only those requests...the process and DB hit are incredibly thin and fast. Remember ADO needs no ODBC bridge (like JDBC). DB hits to MS SQL are going to naturally be faster. --Phil -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:57 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? There are a few lines that you can add to CF config files and it will store all session data in the db. I tried it and it proved to be a bit slow, and I imagine it will be the same with ASP. CF has an arguably better solution where it shares the data between all the servers directly, instead of loading the db server on every request. Russ ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254799 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > expert on say Asp.Net ... I think this largely depends on your background. Visual Studio.NET does a very good job of making web application development seem to work like traditional desktop application development, so if you have a lot of experience with that, you might well be more productive with ASP.NET. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254798 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I'm already on it. I'll respond once the convo moves over. On 9/29/06, loathe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Sign up on CF-Talk if you would. > > I'd like to continue this. > > > -Original Message- > > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:43 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. > > > > WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. lol. > > There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own session > > handler > > OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, use > file > > system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what ASP.NET > > offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write a > > service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF > > developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how to do > it > > in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. > > > > First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so > no > > need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very usable > > for > > the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things that > is). > > Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your > own > > controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. > > > > ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the OS > > MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. > > > > Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just to > argue. > > I > > was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is no > > battle > > there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET is > > not > > a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the comparison > you > > make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That is my > only > > point. > > > > I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what most > people > > have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. I > think > > it > > would be the best decision for CF and the community but who cares. We're > a > > small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF > license(s). > > > > No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. > > > > To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use it > often. > > Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write about it. > > With > > all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed CF when > > you > > get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do a > > ..NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am not > turning > > my > > back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I was you > > less > > than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Talk" > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > > > > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I > > needed > > > more than what it offered I could extend my application using things > > like > > > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out > > > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > > > > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same platform? > > No > > > I > > > can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on > a > > > desktop I have a browser. Mobile and web I have covered. > > > > > > Controls? Leverage the OS? Hell, mine are OS independent, and I am > not > > > limited by what the controls I have been given or purchased. I can > > expand > > > my UI using Flex or Flash to give me any and all elements that I need. > > > > > > The price issue again, jeez. Seriously, with all that speed of > > > development > > > that you are talking about is the cost really that large of an issue > for > > > an > > > "ENTERPRISE" solution? > > > > > > Have
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
> Loathe, can you store that session data in a database with > ease? If so, what database? Can you write your own session > handler that integrates with the CF session handler? Yes, any, yes. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "integration", though, so you might want to provide more specific detail. It's worth pointing out that CF sessions can be the same as J2EE sessions, so all of the things you can do from J2EE web apps you can also do from CF. > To back up some of what Phil said, do what ScottGu did here: > http://blogs.katapultmedia.com/jb2/2006/09/scottgu_linq_aspnet > _iis_7_and.html. > Do that in the amount of time he did it and I will sing praises. :-) I didn't really see anything there so out of the ordinary. Of course, I didn't see the presentation. And I should mention that IIS 7 is not yet available for public use. >* custom authentication framework How hard is it to track a session variable? >* creating the paging/sorting code for the table Server-side paging and sorting, or AJAX paging and sorting? There are lots of alternatives here, but none are especially difficult to implement, and once you've done it the way you like it, you can easily reuse that sort of code. >* separating admin content from public site content (with > the files being in the same directory) There's no reason why you can't easily have per-page authorization checking in CF; many of our applications do this. It's typically not as simple as "admin" vs "public", though - most complex systems require much more granular permissions than this. Again, though, you write this once and its yours for life. >* (if CF) installing some sort of module in IIS (if possible, > pending shared server vs dedicated) for url rewriting (or "spoofing > it" with url reading/parsing) Many, many alternatives here. It takes about 5 minutes to install ISAPI_Rewrite. Of course, Apache comes with mod_rewrite. You can also do useful preprocessing with servlet filters. Again, this stuff isn't complicated, and once you've done it the first time, it's easy to do again. >* creating web services (or whatever is needed for your chosen > Ajax framework) for your app to make Ajax calls with the same > authetication implemented How hard is that for you to do in CF, seriously? You can use the same HTTP authentication stuff that you do with regular pages, if you like. >* etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. That, on the other hand, is quite difficult to match in CF. In summary, I feel confident that, if required, I could give a two-hour presentation in which I did all of those things in CF. > The issue here is the power of .net vs CF. .net is > enterprise...bottom line. > You can build an end to end app in .net (mobile, web, > desktop). CF is only web-based so you can only compare > asp.net to CF, to be fair about it. It's always a bit unsettling for me to hear Microsoft products and "enterprise" in the same sentence, even though I've long believed that they can work in the enterprise. And yes, you can build mobile, web and desktop applications with .NET - I'm a big fan of the .NET Compact Framework, myself. But you're not building one application at that point, you're building three applications. Those applications might share some common components, and even some of the same presentation logic, but they'll still be three distinct applications. And, aside from the web portions, your Microsoft applications will only run on Microsoft products - you'll have a heck of a time deploying your .NET CF apps to Blackberries. Right now, the enterprise runs Java. CF integrates nicely with Java. You will simply not find too much .NET in enterprise environments yet. I'm a big fan of MS products, generally, and I think they're often better than they're credited to be, but unless you buy into the idea of the "Microsoft stack", where everything you use comes from Microsoft, you don't really have viable solutions. Most enterprises have not bought into that idea yet. I don't know if they ever will. > Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing > just to argue. I was merely clarifying that you can't compare > CF to .NET. There is no battle there. .NET as a whole is way > beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET is not a web > programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the > comparison you make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you > just can't. That is my only point. I suspect that most people here, being web developers, are only interested in ASP.NET, and when they compare CF to ".NET", what they really mean is ASP.NET. Of course, the proper comparison here is with Java. Java can be used to deliver all of these sorts of applications, on a wide variety of platforms. > I do agree that Adobe needs to reduce the price tag, > drastically. If CF was free (for example), there wouldn't be > much of a complaint by any of the other religious .net'ers, > php'ers, etc. Price is the biggest problem in CF. Enterp
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
On 9/29/06, Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree with your bottom-line, John, that it's mostly > a matter of money...free vs. $1200, minimum. > > For me, it's not so much about functionality...I'm still > building websites and apps on CF 4.5 as fast as I can > program them...and I've still never used Verity or other > functions of CF. > > I hate the thought of learning a new language, however...Adobe, > please give me a discount as a loyal user! Half price would > be great! you have yet to buy a product from Adobe. how exactly are you a loyal user? :) -- Charlie Griefer "...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed." ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254794 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
It was on BSD at one point, but they may have thrown that aside. > -Original Message- > From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:51 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > "ASP.NET is OS independent" > > Erm, AFAIK it only works on Windows (supported). > > > > > > > > > > > > "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, > Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, > Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is > confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive > use of the > intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) > please note > that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the > information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error please return it to the > sender or call > our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed > within this > communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." > Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com > > -----Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II > To: CF-Talk > Sent: Fri Sep 29 17:42:44 2006 > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. > > WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. lol. > There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own > session handler > > OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, > use file > system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what ASP.NET > offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write a > service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF > developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how > to do it > in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. > > First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so no > need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very > usable for > the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things > that is). > Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your own > controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. > > ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the OS > MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. > > Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just > to argue. I > was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is > no battle > there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that > .NET is not > > a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the > comparison you > make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That > is my only > point. > > I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what > most people > have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. > I think it > > would be the best decision for CF and the community but who > cares. We're a > small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF license(s). > > No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. > > To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use > it often. > Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write > about it. With > > all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed > CF when you > > get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do a > ...NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am > not turning my > > back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I > was you less > than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. > > - Original Message - > From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. > If I needed > > more than what it offered I could extend my application using > things like > > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out > > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same > platform? No > > I > > can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on a >
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
There are a few lines that you can add to CF config files and it will store all session data in the db. I tried it and it proved to be a bit slow, and I imagine it will be the same with ASP. CF has an arguably better solution where it shares the data between all the servers directly, instead of loading the db server on every request. Russ > -Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:43 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. > > WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. lol. > There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own session > handler > OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, use file > system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what ASP.NET > offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write a > service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF > developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how to do it > in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. > > First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so no > need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very usable > for > the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things that is). > Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your own > controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. > > ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the OS > MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. > > Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just to argue. > I > was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is no > battle > there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET is > not > a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the comparison you > make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That is my only > point. > > I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what most people > have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. I think > it > would be the best decision for CF and the community but who cares. We're a > small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF license(s). > > No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. > > To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use it often. > Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write about it. > With > all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed CF when > you > get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do a > ..NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am not turning > my > back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I was you > less > than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. > > - Original Message - > From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I > needed > > more than what it offered I could extend my application using things > like > > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out > > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same platform? > No > > I > > can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on a > > desktop I have a browser. Mobile and web I have covered. > > > > Controls? Leverage the OS? Hell, mine are OS independent, and I am not > > limited by what the controls I have been given or purchased. I can > expand > > my UI using Flex or Flash to give me any and all elements that I need. > > > > The price issue again, jeez. Seriously, with all that speed of > > development > > that you are talking about is the cost really that large of an issue for > > an > > "ENTERPRISE" solution? > > > > Have you purchased a J2EE server recently? Know how much they cost? > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:14 PM > >> To: CF-Talk > >> Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > >> > >> > >> Loathe, can you store that session data in a
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
..NET needs Windows (so you've got at least $600 licensing cost there), Windows generally needs more powerful hardware then linux. You can install mysql/apache/bluedragon on windows, but most shops would use MS SQL, which if you don't get the free version (which is limited to 4GB), the licensing costs are something crazy. Something like $5k per processor or more for the standard edition. I'm not sure about the IDE for doing .NET development. I know they have some express IDEs that are free, but if you're doing serious .NET development, you will probably need the full version, which I'm guessing is a lot of money. Add to that the fact that it will cost a lot more money for the same quality ..NET developer then a CF one, and you'll see that .NET has a higher TCO then CF. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:36 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Thanks for the comments, Russ. > > > > I guess I need to look at BD's site again...I checked out their > offerings when the announcement of the latest version hit the > list yesterday, but didn't see a free version...I would need SSL, > however, so that would be an issue I'd have to address. > > I do use MySQL, so my database is free already... > > I've considered looking into CFEclipse, especially since the > WYSIWYG IDE is available for MyEclipse. > > I have successfully set up CF 7 and Apache on my laptop, > but haven't had time to do anything with it, but I'm sure I could > deal with Apache. > > When you wrote "You can't say the same about .NET", what > did you mean? > > Rick > > -Original Message- > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:58 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Personally, I tried to learn .NET a few times, but it seemed pretty > backward > to me, and I have a MS in CS. I'm sure if I really needed to, I could > learn > it and be productive in it, but I doubt it would be as good as CF. > > As far as CF having no IDE, what about CFEclipse? There are also html > ide's > that were discussed here a few weeks ago. > > So you can get a free BlueDragon cf server, use CFEclipse as the editor, > run > the server on linux/apache, use mysql for the db and everything is free. > You just need some place to host your server. The only limit is that the > free BD server doesn't support SSL (but I'm sure I can find a way around > that using apache if I had to). > > You can't say the same about .NET. > > Russ > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:15 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Hi, Phil... > > > > I share your sentiments concerning CF and it's pricing and market share. > > > > There's just no competing with "free"...and although I don't know .NET > > and C# at this point, I doubt seriously that a person equally > experienced > > in .NET and C# would take substantially more time, if any at all, to > > maintain an > > app that was written in that language rather than CF. > > > > I love CF, and without any formal training other than a CF WACK 4.0 > book, > > this list, and the Internet in general, have been able to write many web > > applications and make a decent living using CFML and CF Server. > > > > I'm a one-man development shop and don't have a corporate budget backing > > my purchases, so the cost of a technology definitely comes into play > > when I consider using it. I look at CF and Dreamweaver (I like > WYSIWYG), > > and I think, hmmmabout $1700...I look at .NET and some of their free > > design tools, which are pretty good, and I think, hmmm...$0... > > > > I've only worked a little with .NET and MS's design tools and I have to > > say, > > I don't like having to learn a new language, etc., and find CF so much > > more > > intuitive. But I'm a smart guy and with some effort, I can learn .NET > and > > C# > > and be just as productive in application production in the end. > > > > With the new tools, etc., that MS is providing to support .NET, it's > > getting > > harder and harder to justify spending so much money on CF. > > > > CF has no IDE, which adds to the cost of using CF, too. > > > > One of the biggest factors in my n
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Sign up on CF-Talk if you would. I'd like to continue this. > -Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:43 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. > > WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. lol. > There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own session > handler > OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, use file > system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what ASP.NET > offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write a > service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF > developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how to do it > in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. > > First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so no > need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very usable > for > the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things that is). > Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your own > controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. > > ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the OS > MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. > > Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just to argue. > I > was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is no > battle > there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET is > not > a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the comparison you > make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That is my only > point. > > I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what most people > have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. I think > it > would be the best decision for CF and the community but who cares. We're a > small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF license(s). > > No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. > > To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use it often. > Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write about it. > With > all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed CF when > you > get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do a > ..NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am not turning > my > back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I was you > less > than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. > > - Original Message - > From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I > needed > > more than what it offered I could extend my application using things > like > > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out > > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same platform? > No > > I > > can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on a > > desktop I have a browser. Mobile and web I have covered. > > > > Controls? Leverage the OS? Hell, mine are OS independent, and I am not > > limited by what the controls I have been given or purchased. I can > expand > > my UI using Flex or Flash to give me any and all elements that I need. > > > > The price issue again, jeez. Seriously, with all that speed of > > development > > that you are talking about is the cost really that large of an issue for > > an > > "ENTERPRISE" solution? > > > > Have you purchased a J2EE server recently? Know how much they cost? > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:14 PM > >> To: CF-Talk > >> Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > >> > >> > >> Loathe, can you store that session data in a database with ease? > >> If so, what > >> database? Can you write your own session handler that integrates > >> with the CF > >> session handler? > >> > >> That's just a few things you can do with .NET. I know the a
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
"ASP.NET is OS independent" Erm, AFAIK it only works on Windows (supported). "This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions." Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II To: CF-Talk Sent: Fri Sep 29 17:42:44 2006 Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. lol. There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own session handler OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, use file system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what ASP.NET offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write a service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how to do it in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so no need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very usable for the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things that is). Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your own controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the OS MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just to argue. I was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is no battle there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET is not a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the comparison you make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That is my only point. I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what most people have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. I think it would be the best decision for CF and the community but who cares. We're a small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF license(s). No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use it often. Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write about it. With all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed CF when you get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do a ...NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am not turning my back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I was you less than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. - Original Message - From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I needed > more than what it offered I could extend my application using things like > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same platform? No > I > can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on a > desktop I have a browser. Mobile and web I have covered. > > Controls? Leverage the OS? Hell, mine are OS independent, and I am not > limited by what the controls I have been given or purchased. I can expand > my UI using Flex or Flash to give me any and all elements that I need. > > The price issue again, jeez. Seriously, with all that speed of > development > that you are talking about is the cost really that large of an issue for > an > "ENTERPRISE" solution? > > Have you purchased a J2EE server recently? Know how much they cost? > >> -Original Message- >> From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:14 PM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? >> >> >>
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Any stats on how many "one-man" or "two-man" shops, etc, are using CF? I'd like to know the breakdown... Rick -Original Message- From: Loathe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? It does that's for sure, but it's still the largest site, I'm just saying that the guys claim sounded weak. Also, I'm sorry but these "one man shop" guys that are out there doing web sites and are complaining about their cost, well to be honest, I don't think they are the target CF audience really anymore. CF is being used all over as a middleware or front end layer in large scale enterprise applications around the world. Even if they stopped selling CF today there would be legacy work for decades to come, just like with COBOL and assembly and Pascal and all the other crap from the 80s that is still here and slowly being replaced. All I am saying, the sky isn't falling people. > -Original Message- > From: Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:10 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > "I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the > world for the last couple of years." > > Which needs a serious overhaul. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > Steve, > > > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# > > to Java is > > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. > > However, I must > > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > > capability > > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or > > clients that > > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx > > ?FileName= > > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about > the number of > > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. > They must > > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > > > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless > > Adobe adopts > > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, > with .NET and > > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst > > continuing > > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game > > in town and > > they need to start acting like it. > > > > I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no > flames. I hate it > > just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I > have finally > > learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. > > Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt > > yourself in the > > end. > > > > > > > > --Phil > > > > ===> > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in > > development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of > > original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual > designer, there are > > times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than > > CF - given > > that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. > > > > Steve Brownlee > > http://www.fusioncube.net/ > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > > > To: CF-Talk > > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > > > valid - when
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I agree with your bottom-line, John, that it's mostly a matter of money...free vs. $1200, minimum. For me, it's not so much about functionality...I'm still building websites and apps on CF 4.5 as fast as I can program them...and I've still never used Verity or other functions of CF. I hate the thought of learning a new language, however...Adobe, please give me a discount as a loyal user! Half price would be great! Rick -Original Message- From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Loathe, can you store that session data in a database with ease? If so, what database? Can you write your own session handler that integrates with the CF session handler? That's just a few things you can do with .NET. I know the answer to the questions so no need to answer them. To back up some of what Phil said, do what ScottGu did here: http://blogs.katapultmedia.com/jb2/2006/09/scottgu_linq_aspnet_iis_7_and.htm l. Do that in the amount of time he did it and I will sing praises. :-) The issue here is the power of .net vs CF. .net is enterprise...bottom line. You can build an end to end app in .net (mobile, web, desktop). CF is only web-based so you can only compare asp.net to CF, to be fair about it. CF is definitely faster from 0 to 60 when dealing wtih basic things. Now, if you want to create a datagrid that has paging, sorting, inline updating/deleting, etc in CF you'll be twiddling your thumbs for a while and an ASP.NET developer will be done in 2 minutes. That is the biggest difference between CF and ASP.NET. ASP.NET has controls. CF doesn't. ASP.NET can leverage the entire OS. CF can't. The robustness of ASP.NET cannot be denied. The speed of CF cannot be denied. They both are great tech's and this convo is really a losing battle. Regardless of which one is better in the mind of the developer, it should always come down to what fits the project best. I do agree that Adobe needs to reduce the price tag, drastically. If CF was free (for example), there wouldn't be much of a complaint by any of the other religious .net'ers, php'ers, etc. Price is the biggest problem in CF. - Original Message - From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:01 AM Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? >I don't think I could disagree more. > > I've been around the CF community for a few minutes now, and I see the > exact > opposite. Now maybe in your market this is true, but I can assure that > CF, > at least in the government sector where I work, has been growing like > crazy. > There are tons of CF jobs in the Washington DC area. > > Also, how does CF not have excellent session management? I mean, we use > groups of clustered boxes that give us excellent response times, up times, > and they all share our session information. > > Just wondering what site was it that you were on that had al of this crazy > traffic? > > I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the > world for the last couple of years. > >> -----Original Message- >> From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? >> >> >> Steve, >> >> Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. >> >> I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# >> to Java is >> remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. >> However, I must >> agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less >> hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session >> capability >> that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. >> >> After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using >> ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or >> clients that >> are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic >> ColdFusion site on the planet. >> >> Here is a situation similar to mine: >> http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx >> ?FileName= >> 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx >> >> The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number >> of >> developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must >> have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. >> >> Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless >> Adobe adopts >> a DRAMATIC pricing reducti
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Hey, sorry Mike. I didn't know this was getting run to the ground. I should've guessed though. I'll refrain from responding here. - Original Message - From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > This topic has come up every 2 months since before there even was an Asp. > But it's off topic for this technical list. Please move any responses over > to the CF-OT (ColdFusion off topic) list, CF-Community (where it will be > ridiculed) or even to CF-Jobs-Talk or Biz-Dev (Business Development). It's > not technical and does not belong here. > > Thank you. > > Your list admin > > p.s. I've installed a targeted search so if you want to find the last time > this thread has come up on CF-Talk, you can search this list only. Might > save everyone some time. > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254785 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Dude, you are arguing just to argue. lol. Calm down a bit. WDDX? Are you serious? :-D I wish my laughing emoticon worked here. lol. There are tons of reasons why you may want to write your own session handler OR just write a new intermediary to connect with another db type, use file system, etc. You really can't comment here unless you know what ASP.NET offers in the way of session customization. So you can use Java, write a service factory, blah blah. How long will that take for the common CF developer (medium to advanced level)? Seriously. Now research how to do it in ASP.NET and do it in a much shorter timespan. First off, the same flex/flash controls can be used in any language so no need to boast that. Yes, Flash forms are CF only but aren't very usable for the common CF developer that doesn't know AS (for complex things that is). Your controls statement about .net is off. You can easily create your own controls that provide intellisense and the 9 in minutes. ASP.NET is OS independent as well. I simply said you can leverage the OS MUCH better than in CF. That is it and all. Mobile, web, desktop blah blah blah. Dude, again...arguing just to argue. I was merely clarifying that you can't compare CF to .NET. There is no battle there. .NET as a whole is way beyond CF for the simple fact that .NET is not a web programming language like CF. ASP.NET is. That is the comparison you make. Too many people compare .NET to CF...you just can't. That is my only point. I'm not arguing the price here. All I'm saying is that is what most people have to go on. I could care less if Adobe drops the price or not. I think it would be the best decision for CF and the community but who cares. We're a small shop and will continue to shell out the cash for our CF license(s). No, we haven't purchased a J2EE server. No need. To bottom line this for you man, I'm a hardcore CF lover. We use it often. Our site is built with it. We do client work with it. I write about it. With all of that said, .NET's abilities (ASP.NET included) far exceed CF when you get beyond cfquery and simple output stuff. Seriously, learn C# and do a ..NET site. You will see what I mean. Again, I love CF and am not turning my back on it. You just SERIOUSLY need to open your mind a bit. I was you less than a year ago. Arguing for no reason. - Original Message - From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:24 AM Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > Yes I can it's called wddx. > > My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I needed > more than what it offered I could extend my application using things like > the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out > there. I could also just write my own classes. > > Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same platform? No > I > can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on a > desktop I have a browser. Mobile and web I have covered. > > Controls? Leverage the OS? Hell, mine are OS independent, and I am not > limited by what the controls I have been given or purchased. I can expand > my UI using Flex or Flash to give me any and all elements that I need. > > The price issue again, jeez. Seriously, with all that speed of > development > that you are talking about is the cost really that large of an issue for > an > "ENTERPRISE" solution? > > Have you purchased a J2EE server recently? Know how much they cost? > >> -Original Message- >> From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:14 PM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? >> >> >> Loathe, can you store that session data in a database with ease? >> If so, what >> database? Can you write your own session handler that integrates >> with the CF >> session handler? >> >> That's just a few things you can do with .NET. I know the answer to the >> questions so no need to answer them. >> >> To back up some of what Phil said, do what ScottGu did here: >> http://blogs.katapultmedia.com/jb2/2006/09/scottgu_linq_aspnet_iis >> _7_and.html. >> Do that in the amount of time he did it and I will sing praises. :-) >> >> The issue here is the power of .net vs CF. .net is >> enterprise...bottom line. >> You can build an end to end app in .net (mobile, web, desktop). >> CF is only >> web-based so you can only compare asp.net to CF, to be fair about it. >> >> CF is definitely faster from 0 to 60 when dealing wtih basic >> things. Now, if >> you want to create a datagrid that has pagi
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Thanks for the comments, Russ. I guess I need to look at BD's site again...I checked out their offerings when the announcement of the latest version hit the list yesterday, but didn't see a free version...I would need SSL, however, so that would be an issue I'd have to address. I do use MySQL, so my database is free already... I've considered looking into CFEclipse, especially since the WYSIWYG IDE is available for MyEclipse. I have successfully set up CF 7 and Apache on my laptop, but haven't had time to do anything with it, but I'm sure I could deal with Apache. When you wrote "You can't say the same about .NET", what did you mean? Rick -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Personally, I tried to learn .NET a few times, but it seemed pretty backward to me, and I have a MS in CS. I'm sure if I really needed to, I could learn it and be productive in it, but I doubt it would be as good as CF. As far as CF having no IDE, what about CFEclipse? There are also html ide's that were discussed here a few weeks ago. So you can get a free BlueDragon cf server, use CFEclipse as the editor, run the server on linux/apache, use mysql for the db and everything is free. You just need some place to host your server. The only limit is that the free BD server doesn't support SSL (but I'm sure I can find a way around that using apache if I had to). You can't say the same about .NET. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:15 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Hi, Phil... > > I share your sentiments concerning CF and it's pricing and market share. > > There's just no competing with "free"...and although I don't know .NET > and C# at this point, I doubt seriously that a person equally experienced > in .NET and C# would take substantially more time, if any at all, to > maintain an > app that was written in that language rather than CF. > > I love CF, and without any formal training other than a CF WACK 4.0 book, > this list, and the Internet in general, have been able to write many web > applications and make a decent living using CFML and CF Server. > > I'm a one-man development shop and don't have a corporate budget backing > my purchases, so the cost of a technology definitely comes into play > when I consider using it. I look at CF and Dreamweaver (I like WYSIWYG), > and I think, hmmmabout $1700...I look at .NET and some of their free > design tools, which are pretty good, and I think, hmmm...$0... > > I've only worked a little with .NET and MS's design tools and I have to > say, > I don't like having to learn a new language, etc., and find CF so much > more > intuitive. But I'm a smart guy and with some effort, I can learn .NET and > C# > and be just as productive in application production in the end. > > With the new tools, etc., that MS is providing to support .NET, it's > getting > harder and harder to justify spending so much money on CF. > > CF has no IDE, which adds to the cost of using CF, too. > > One of the biggest factors in my not embracing .NET yet...this list...I > searched > for a .NET list as good as CF-Talk, but couldn't find anything that came > close. And I know just how important this list has been for me. Maybe > it's > because the CF community is smaller than the .Net community, but I haven't > found a list to provide the support I would need to transition to .NET, > yet. > > I'm still happily using CF 4.5.2, however, and see no reason to upgrade. > I don't care how I code for the end user, be it in 4.5 style or the latest > and > greatest .cfc...all I care about is the experience for the end user...and > unless > I'm using FLEX or AJAX, I haven't seen any significant end user experience > improvements through the various CF versions. > > > > A good discussion to have on a Friday... > > Rick > > > > -Original Message- > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Steve, > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java > is > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I > must > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > hardware to host the same ap. It has built
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
CF does have excellent session management. However, it is 6K per box to do it. The alternative is to use hardware load balancing with CF standard. This brings its own set of issues. ..NET's enterprise level session management is free. So, when you're running 40+ servers, that's a huge cost benefit. BTW: I think that CF will be around for a long, long time. However, if you just look at the job boards, you'll see the difference in market share. Recently I've noticed that there have been more CF jobs out there and that is fantastic. But it simply pales in comparison to .NET. My point was that IF Adobe wants to stop .NET from taking the big sites, it needs to seriously rethink it's pricing. CF is good for a small shop where a few licenses is not going to break the bank. But once you start getting into sites that have double digit servers, it becomes a big problem to stay current, not to mention that the same application will run on half the hardware. Businesses are in business to make money. Not deal in purist technical philosophies. Unfortunately, Microsoft and Mono have excellent products that both happen to be free. I personally just don't feel that Adobe is in touch with the marketplace when it thinks $5999.00 is justifiable in any way shape or form. I am sorry, it just isn't. Java is free until you get into large scale EJB servers etc. Then it gets incredibly expensive. Look at Sun's earnings and you'll see a real problem there. IBM's WebSphere has an almost immeasurable share of the market and you'd be hard pressed to find many jobs. Here, let me illustrate this by way of employment opportunties: WebSphere 2 results: http://www.texas.computerjobs.com/job_results.aspx?searchid=96955955&scope=r esults&s_kw=WebSphere&s_city=&s_jcid= ColdFusion (2 listings) http://www.texas.computerjobs.com/job_results.aspx?searchid=0&scope=results&; s_kw=ColdFusion&s_jcid= C# / .NET 104 results http://www.texas.computerjobs.com/job_results.aspx?searchid=96956081&scope=r esults&s_kw=.NET+C%23&s_city=&s_jcid= That doesn't even include VB.NET, J++, etc and so on. -- Phil => -Original Message----- From: Loathe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? I don't think I could disagree more. I've been around the CF community for a few minutes now, and I see the exact opposite. Now maybe in your market this is true, but I can assure that CF, at least in the government sector where I work, has been growing like crazy. There are tons of CF jobs in the Washington DC area. Also, how does CF not have excellent session management? I mean, we use groups of clustered boxes that give us excellent response times, up times, and they all share our session information. Just wondering what site was it that you were on that had al of this crazy traffic? I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the world for the last couple of years. > -Original Message----- > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > Steve, > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# > to Java is > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. > However, I must > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > capability > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or > clients that > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx > ?FileName= > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless > Adobe adopts > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst > continuing > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game > in town and > they need to start acting like it. > > I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So pl
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
This topic has come up every 2 months since before there even was an Asp. But it's off topic for this technical list. Please move any responses over to the CF-OT (ColdFusion off topic) list, CF-Community (where it will be ridiculed) or even to CF-Jobs-Talk or Biz-Dev (Business Development). It's not technical and does not belong here. Thank you. Your list admin p.s. I've installed a targeted search so if you want to find the last time this thread has come up on CF-Talk, you can search this list only. Might save everyone some time. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254781 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Yes I can it's called wddx. My own session handler? Why would I, they wrote one for me. If I needed more than what it offered I could extend my application using things like the service factory and the other macromedia java objects that are out there. I could also just write my own classes. Can I do mobile, web and desktop applications from the same platform? No I can't. I can't do desktop apps, you are correct, so what? If I am on a desktop I have a browser. Mobile and web I have covered. Controls? Leverage the OS? Hell, mine are OS independent, and I am not limited by what the controls I have been given or purchased. I can expand my UI using Flex or Flash to give me any and all elements that I need. The price issue again, jeez. Seriously, with all that speed of development that you are talking about is the cost really that large of an issue for an "ENTERPRISE" solution? Have you purchased a J2EE server recently? Know how much they cost? > -Original Message- > From: John C. Bland II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:14 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > Loathe, can you store that session data in a database with ease? > If so, what > database? Can you write your own session handler that integrates > with the CF > session handler? > > That's just a few things you can do with .NET. I know the answer to the > questions so no need to answer them. > > To back up some of what Phil said, do what ScottGu did here: > http://blogs.katapultmedia.com/jb2/2006/09/scottgu_linq_aspnet_iis > _7_and.html. > Do that in the amount of time he did it and I will sing praises. :-) > > The issue here is the power of .net vs CF. .net is > enterprise...bottom line. > You can build an end to end app in .net (mobile, web, desktop). > CF is only > web-based so you can only compare asp.net to CF, to be fair about it. > > CF is definitely faster from 0 to 60 when dealing wtih basic > things. Now, if > you want to create a datagrid that has paging, sorting, inline > updating/deleting, etc in CF you'll be twiddling your thumbs for > a while and > an ASP.NET developer will be done in 2 minutes. That is the biggest > difference between CF and ASP.NET. ASP.NET has controls. CF > doesn't. ASP.NET > can leverage the entire OS. CF can't. > > The robustness of ASP.NET cannot be denied. The speed of CF cannot be > denied. They both are great tech's and this convo is really a > losing battle. > Regardless of which one is better in the mind of the developer, it should > always come down to what fits the project best. > > I do agree that Adobe needs to reduce the price tag, drastically. > If CF was > free (for example), there wouldn't be much of a complaint by any of the > other religious .net'ers, php'ers, etc. Price is the biggest > problem in CF. > > - Original Message - > From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:01 AM > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > >I don't think I could disagree more. > > > > I've been around the CF community for a few minutes now, and I see the > > exact > > opposite. Now maybe in your market this is true, but I can assure that > > CF, > > at least in the government sector where I work, has been growing like > > crazy. > > There are tons of CF jobs in the Washington DC area. > > > > Also, how does CF not have excellent session management? I mean, we use > > groups of clustered boxes that give us excellent response > times, up times, > > and they all share our session information. > > > > Just wondering what site was it that you were on that had al of > this crazy > > traffic? > > > > I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the > > world for the last couple of years. > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > >> To: CF-Talk > >> Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > >> > >> > >> Steve, > >> > >> Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > >> > >> I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# > >> to Java is > >> remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. > >> However, I must > >> agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > >> hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > >> capability > >
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
It does that's for sure, but it's still the largest site, I'm just saying that the guys claim sounded weak. Also, I'm sorry but these "one man shop" guys that are out there doing web sites and are complaining about their cost, well to be honest, I don't think they are the target CF audience really anymore. CF is being used all over as a middleware or front end layer in large scale enterprise applications around the world. Even if they stopped selling CF today there would be legacy work for decades to come, just like with COBOL and assembly and Pascal and all the other crap from the 80s that is still here and slowly being replaced. All I am saying, the sky isn't falling people. > -Original Message- > From: Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:10 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > "I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the > world for the last couple of years." > > Which needs a serious overhaul. > > > -Original Message- > > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > Steve, > > > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# > > to Java is > > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. > > However, I must > > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > > capability > > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or > > clients that > > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx > > ?FileName= > > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about > the number of > > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. > They must > > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > > > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless > > Adobe adopts > > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, > with .NET and > > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst > > continuing > > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game > > in town and > > they need to start acting like it. > > > > I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no > flames. I hate it > > just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I > have finally > > learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. > > Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt > > yourself in the > > end. > > > > > > > > --Phil > > > > ===> > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in > > development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of > > original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual > designer, there are > > times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than > > CF - given > > that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. > > > > Steve Brownlee > > http://www.fusioncube.net/ > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > > > To: CF-Talk > > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > > > valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net > > > ... I just know VB myself, > > > > > > TK > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: > 9/22/2006 > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254778 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Loathe, can you store that session data in a database with ease? If so, what database? Can you write your own session handler that integrates with the CF session handler? That's just a few things you can do with .NET. I know the answer to the questions so no need to answer them. To back up some of what Phil said, do what ScottGu did here: http://blogs.katapultmedia.com/jb2/2006/09/scottgu_linq_aspnet_iis_7_and.html. Do that in the amount of time he did it and I will sing praises. :-) The issue here is the power of .net vs CF. .net is enterprise...bottom line. You can build an end to end app in .net (mobile, web, desktop). CF is only web-based so you can only compare asp.net to CF, to be fair about it. CF is definitely faster from 0 to 60 when dealing wtih basic things. Now, if you want to create a datagrid that has paging, sorting, inline updating/deleting, etc in CF you'll be twiddling your thumbs for a while and an ASP.NET developer will be done in 2 minutes. That is the biggest difference between CF and ASP.NET. ASP.NET has controls. CF doesn't. ASP.NET can leverage the entire OS. CF can't. The robustness of ASP.NET cannot be denied. The speed of CF cannot be denied. They both are great tech's and this convo is really a losing battle. Regardless of which one is better in the mind of the developer, it should always come down to what fits the project best. I do agree that Adobe needs to reduce the price tag, drastically. If CF was free (for example), there wouldn't be much of a complaint by any of the other religious .net'ers, php'ers, etc. Price is the biggest problem in CF. - Original Message - From: "Loathe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:01 AM Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? >I don't think I could disagree more. > > I've been around the CF community for a few minutes now, and I see the > exact > opposite. Now maybe in your market this is true, but I can assure that > CF, > at least in the government sector where I work, has been growing like > crazy. > There are tons of CF jobs in the Washington DC area. > > Also, how does CF not have excellent session management? I mean, we use > groups of clustered boxes that give us excellent response times, up times, > and they all share our session information. > > Just wondering what site was it that you were on that had al of this crazy > traffic? > > I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the > world for the last couple of years. > >> -Original Message----- >> From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? >> >> >> Steve, >> >> Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. >> >> I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# >> to Java is >> remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. >> However, I must >> agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less >> hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session >> capability >> that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. >> >> After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using >> ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or >> clients that >> are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic >> ColdFusion site on the planet. >> >> Here is a situation similar to mine: >> http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx >> ?FileName= >> 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx >> >> The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number >> of >> developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must >> have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. >> >> Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless >> Adobe adopts >> a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET >> and >> Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst >> continuing >> to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game >> in town and >> they need to start acting like it. >> >> I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate >> it >> just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have >> finally >> learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. >> Holding on exclusively to a versus men
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
"I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the world for the last couple of years." Which needs a serious overhaul. > -Original Message- > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > Steve, > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# > to Java is > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. > However, I must > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > capability > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or > clients that > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx > ?FileName= > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless > Adobe adopts > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst > continuing > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game > in town and > they need to start acting like it. > > I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate it > just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have finally > learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. > Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt > yourself in the > end. > > > > --Phil > > ===> > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in > development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of > original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are > times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than > CF - given > that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. > > Steve Brownlee > http://www.fusioncube.net/ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > > valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net > > ... I just know VB myself, > > > > TK > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254775 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
All excellent points. At last years CF United there was a good LAMP presentation. I'm so tired of hearing how CF is dead. Hell, I know people that are still writing COBOL. CF is doing just fine, better than under Allaire, and better than under Macromedia. > -Original Message- > From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:58 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > Personally, I tried to learn .NET a few times, but it seemed > pretty backward > to me, and I have a MS in CS. I'm sure if I really needed to, I > could learn > it and be productive in it, but I doubt it would be as good as CF. > > As far as CF having no IDE, what about CFEclipse? There are also > html ide's > that were discussed here a few weeks ago. > > So you can get a free BlueDragon cf server, use CFEclipse as the > editor, run > the server on linux/apache, use mysql for the db and everything is free. > You just need some place to host your server. The only limit is that the > free BD server doesn't support SSL (but I'm sure I can find a way around > that using apache if I had to). > > You can't say the same about .NET. > > Russ > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:15 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Hi, Phil... > > > > I share your sentiments concerning CF and it's pricing and market share. > > > > There's just no competing with "free"...and although I don't know .NET > > and C# at this point, I doubt seriously that a person equally > experienced > > in .NET and C# would take substantially more time, if any at all, to > > maintain an > > app that was written in that language rather than CF. > > > > I love CF, and without any formal training other than a CF WACK > 4.0 book, > > this list, and the Internet in general, have been able to write many web > > applications and make a decent living using CFML and CF Server. > > > > I'm a one-man development shop and don't have a corporate budget backing > > my purchases, so the cost of a technology definitely comes into play > > when I consider using it. I look at CF and Dreamweaver (I like > WYSIWYG), > > and I think, hmmmabout $1700...I look at .NET and some of their free > > design tools, which are pretty good, and I think, hmmm...$0... > > > > I've only worked a little with .NET and MS's design tools and I have to > > say, > > I don't like having to learn a new language, etc., and find CF so much > > more > > intuitive. But I'm a smart guy and with some effort, I can > learn .NET and > > C# > > and be just as productive in application production in the end. > > > > With the new tools, etc., that MS is providing to support .NET, it's > > getting > > harder and harder to justify spending so much money on CF. > > > > CF has no IDE, which adds to the cost of using CF, too. > > > > One of the biggest factors in my not embracing .NET yet...this list...I > > searched > > for a .NET list as good as CF-Talk, but couldn't find anything that came > > close. And I know just how important this list has been for me. Maybe > > it's > > because the CF community is smaller than the .Net community, > but I haven't > > found a list to provide the support I would need to transition to .NET, > > yet. > > > > I'm still happily using CF 4.5.2, however, and see no reason to upgrade. > > I don't care how I code for the end user, be it in 4.5 style or > the latest > > and > > greatest .cfc...all I care about is the experience for the end > user...and > > unless > > I'm using FLEX or AJAX, I haven't seen any significant end user > experience > > improvements through the various CF versions. > > > > > > > > A good discussion to have on a Friday... > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Steve, > > > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java > > is > > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I > > must > >
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I don't think I could disagree more. I've been around the CF community for a few minutes now, and I see the exact opposite. Now maybe in your market this is true, but I can assure that CF, at least in the government sector where I work, has been growing like crazy. There are tons of CF jobs in the Washington DC area. Also, how does CF not have excellent session management? I mean, we use groups of clustered boxes that give us excellent response times, up times, and they all share our session information. Just wondering what site was it that you were on that had al of this crazy traffic? I thought that Myspace has been about the largest web application in the world for the last couple of years. > -Original Message- > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > Steve, > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# > to Java is > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. > However, I must > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > capability > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or > clients that > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx > ?FileName= > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless > Adobe adopts > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst > continuing > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game > in town and > they need to start acting like it. > > I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate it > just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have finally > learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. > Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt > yourself in the > end. > > > > --Phil > > ===> > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in > development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of > original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are > times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than > CF - given > that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. > > Steve Brownlee > http://www.fusioncube.net/ > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > > valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net > > ... I just know VB myself, > > > > TK > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254773 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Personally, I tried to learn .NET a few times, but it seemed pretty backward to me, and I have a MS in CS. I'm sure if I really needed to, I could learn it and be productive in it, but I doubt it would be as good as CF. As far as CF having no IDE, what about CFEclipse? There are also html ide's that were discussed here a few weeks ago. So you can get a free BlueDragon cf server, use CFEclipse as the editor, run the server on linux/apache, use mysql for the db and everything is free. You just need some place to host your server. The only limit is that the free BD server doesn't support SSL (but I'm sure I can find a way around that using apache if I had to). You can't say the same about .NET. Russ > -Original Message- > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:15 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Hi, Phil... > > I share your sentiments concerning CF and it's pricing and market share. > > There's just no competing with "free"...and although I don't know .NET > and C# at this point, I doubt seriously that a person equally experienced > in .NET and C# would take substantially more time, if any at all, to > maintain an > app that was written in that language rather than CF. > > I love CF, and without any formal training other than a CF WACK 4.0 book, > this list, and the Internet in general, have been able to write many web > applications and make a decent living using CFML and CF Server. > > I'm a one-man development shop and don't have a corporate budget backing > my purchases, so the cost of a technology definitely comes into play > when I consider using it. I look at CF and Dreamweaver (I like WYSIWYG), > and I think, hmmmabout $1700...I look at .NET and some of their free > design tools, which are pretty good, and I think, hmmm...$0... > > I've only worked a little with .NET and MS's design tools and I have to > say, > I don't like having to learn a new language, etc., and find CF so much > more > intuitive. But I'm a smart guy and with some effort, I can learn .NET and > C# > and be just as productive in application production in the end. > > With the new tools, etc., that MS is providing to support .NET, it's > getting > harder and harder to justify spending so much money on CF. > > CF has no IDE, which adds to the cost of using CF, too. > > One of the biggest factors in my not embracing .NET yet...this list...I > searched > for a .NET list as good as CF-Talk, but couldn't find anything that came > close. And I know just how important this list has been for me. Maybe > it's > because the CF community is smaller than the .Net community, but I haven't > found a list to provide the support I would need to transition to .NET, > yet. > > I'm still happily using CF 4.5.2, however, and see no reason to upgrade. > I don't care how I code for the end user, be it in 4.5 style or the latest > and > greatest .cfc...all I care about is the experience for the end user...and > unless > I'm using FLEX or AJAX, I haven't seen any significant end user experience > improvements through the various CF versions. > > > > A good discussion to have on a Friday... > > Rick > > > > -Original Message- > From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Steve, > > Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. > > I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java > is > remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I > must > agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less > hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session > capability > that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. > > After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using > ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or clients > that > are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic > ColdFusion site on the planet. > > Here is a situation similar to mine: > http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx?FileNam > e= > 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx > > The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of > developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must > have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. > > Unfortunately, I ca
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Phillip, I agree with what you say about CF. I pointed out on few occasions the different shortcomings of my favorite web platform, but it looks like people ignore them for most part so I just took a break. I hope Adobe takeover of MM will improve things and we see these improvements in the next releases. The gap between .Net and CF is now rather small and it is even hard to say which way it goes (I relay on others for in depth .Net). I am also taking some time to learn .Net TK http://www.tomkitta.com -Original Message- From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Steve, Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java is remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I must agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session capability that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or clients that are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic ColdFusion site on the planet. Here is a situation similar to mine: http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx?FileName= 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless Adobe adopts a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst continuing to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game in town and they need to start acting like it. I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate it just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have finally learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt yourself in the end. --Phil ===> -Original Message- From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than CF - given that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. Steve Brownlee http://www.fusioncube.net/ > -Original Message- > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net > ... I just know VB myself, > > TK -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254771 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Hi, Phil... I share your sentiments concerning CF and it's pricing and market share. There's just no competing with "free"...and although I don't know .NET and C# at this point, I doubt seriously that a person equally experienced in .NET and C# would take substantially more time, if any at all, to maintain an app that was written in that language rather than CF. I love CF, and without any formal training other than a CF WACK 4.0 book, this list, and the Internet in general, have been able to write many web applications and make a decent living using CFML and CF Server. I'm a one-man development shop and don't have a corporate budget backing my purchases, so the cost of a technology definitely comes into play when I consider using it. I look at CF and Dreamweaver (I like WYSIWYG), and I think, hmmmabout $1700...I look at .NET and some of their free design tools, which are pretty good, and I think, hmmm...$0... I've only worked a little with .NET and MS's design tools and I have to say, I don't like having to learn a new language, etc., and find CF so much more intuitive. But I'm a smart guy and with some effort, I can learn .NET and C# and be just as productive in application production in the end. With the new tools, etc., that MS is providing to support .NET, it's getting harder and harder to justify spending so much money on CF. CF has no IDE, which adds to the cost of using CF, too. One of the biggest factors in my not embracing .NET yet...this list...I searched for a .NET list as good as CF-Talk, but couldn't find anything that came close. And I know just how important this list has been for me. Maybe it's because the CF community is smaller than the .Net community, but I haven't found a list to provide the support I would need to transition to .NET, yet. I'm still happily using CF 4.5.2, however, and see no reason to upgrade. I don't care how I code for the end user, be it in 4.5 style or the latest and greatest .cfc...all I care about is the experience for the end user...and unless I'm using FLEX or AJAX, I haven't seen any significant end user experience improvements through the various CF versions. A good discussion to have on a Friday... Rick -Original Message- From: Phillip Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? Steve, Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java is remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I must agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session capability that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or clients that are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic ColdFusion site on the planet. Here is a situation similar to mine: http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx?FileName= 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless Adobe adopts a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst continuing to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game in town and they need to start acting like it. I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate it just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have finally learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt yourself in the end. --Phil ===> -Original Message----- From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than CF - given that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. Steve Brownlee http://www.fusioncube.net/ > -Original Message----- > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? >
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
If you include the cost of our database infrastructure (which is used for mutiple purposes), our Sun based Oracle/Solaris/CF architecture cost maybe $1,000,000. What's a few thousand in that for CF? Nothing compared to the benefits we get. Not everyone runs small shops where a CF license is a significant cost compared to a .NET license. And that's all I'm going to say about that. Because life is like a box of chocolates. And I really hate these CF-is-dying threads we've been putting up with for YEARS. On 9/29/06, Phillip Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless Adobe adopts > a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and > Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst continuing > to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game in town and > they need to start acting like it. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254768 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
"Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless Adobe adopts a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with ..NET and Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst continuing to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game in town and they need to start acting like it." I usually don't chime in on these predictions since they are usually just "gut feelings". But, several people at my location NEVER thought our AS400 would go away, but guess what? It sure the heck is. It's even being replaced by such proprietary software that it actually makes Microsoft appear to be open-source. I wish I could recall how many years (a decade, I guess) that CF has been declared to be "on its way out". Interestingly enough, we installed some .Net apps recently and although they are pretty good, there are quite a few bugs brought forth by the ..Net framework. They are slower than Blackboard (a slow-ass beast in its own way) and they have too many prerequisites on the OS. Of course, I'm generalizing on the .Net bashing, but that's what everyone else does with CF and PHP and Java. I will agree that I think Adobe should better market CF. I don't think the cost is that big of an issue. Take a look at IBM's WebSphere. It's terribly expensive, but they still sell that product. They just do a better job at marketing the app server. My wish: From now on, let this list be limited to CF support and technologies. Let us never hear another word that CF is dead/dying. When Michael D shuts this list down, then we will worry. M!ke ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254763 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
On 9/29/06, Johnny Le <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A friend > of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be done in .NET. > My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in CF. If you have done > a similar presentation, would you please give us some pointers? Thanks. > Tim Buntel at Adobe has been working hard on a "Top 5 Reasons to use ColdFusion on your next Internet Application Project" document. Have a look at that and see if it helps...it's very comprehensive: http://www.buntel.com/docs/top5reasonstousecf_081506.pdf or http://www.buntel.com/docs/top5reasonstousecf_081506.ppt Regards, Dave. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254758 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Steve, Let me start by saying I have been with CF since 1996. I've recently learned .NET via C# as well. The resemblance of C# to Java is remarkable which made the learning curve much faster for me. However, I must agree with you and also add that ASP.NET 2.0 is faster / requires less hardware to host the same ap. It has built in enterprise session capability that allows your SQL database to track your session state and much more. After about 6 months of learning / using .NET, I don't see myself using ColdFusion as a recommended middleware for large scale sites or clients that are on a budget. The company that I work for HAD the highest traffic ColdFusion site on the planet. Here is a situation similar to mine: http://members.microsoft.com/CustomerEvidence/Common/FileOpen.aspx?FileName= 10625_ComputerJobs_bizversion_300k.wvx The thing that I don't agree with that CJ.com said was about the number of developers it took to maintain the sites pre / post conversion. They must have had some code org. issues, because that has been the same for us. Unfortunately, I can see the writing on the wall for CF unless Adobe adopts a DRAMATIC pricing reduction strategy. Plain and simply put, with .NET and Mono in the market, CF can no longer increase market share whilst continuing to maintain / increase their pricing. They're not the only game in town and they need to start acting like it. I pains me to write this publicly about CF. So please no flames. I hate it just as much as the next CF'er. However, I am relieved that I have finally learned .NET because the .NET to CF job ratio is about 100:1 at least. Holding on exclusively to a versus mentality will only hurt yourself in the end. --Phil ===> -Original Message- From: Steve Brownlee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than CF - given that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. Steve Brownlee http://www.fusioncube.net/ > -Original Message- > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still > valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net > ... I just know VB myself, > > TK -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254756 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
But you don't have to pay for .NET functionality if you don't use CF or BlueDragon, right? Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:04 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? You don't even need to make that choice any more. You can use BlueDragon then your doing both. Developing in CFML on the .net platform. Russ -Original Message- From: Johnny Le [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 September 2006 12:48 To: CF-Talk Subject: CF vs. .NET presentations? Hi, Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us some pointers? Thanks. Johnny ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254745 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
I use ASP.NET quite a bit, and while I'd still give CF a slight edge in development speed, the gap has closed tremendously since the days of original ASP. Now that ASP.NET has a top-notch visual designer, there are times when coding an ASP.NET application can be even faster than CF - given that the programmers knowledge of both is equal. Steve Brownlee http://www.fusioncube.net/ > -Original Message- > From: Tom Kitta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:57 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in > .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone > expert on say Asp.Net ... I just know VB myself, > > TK ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254730 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Don't forget about GTK# / Mono. If you don't want M$ but like .NET, it is the way to go. Mono is a great alternative if you're worried about M$ deprecating half the language base from version to version. Best, --Phil -Original Message- From: Doug Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:18 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Coldfusion Web Server Support Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. Operating System Support Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. ...Net Web Server Support Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. Operating System Support Currently supports Microsoft Windows® 2000, Windows XP, and the forthcoming Windows Server 2003. That all you need!! - Original Message - From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > This has never failed to work for me: > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > The End. > > ;) > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > Johnny > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254729 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Is the argument that development in CF is quicker then in .NET still valid - when comparing latest to latest - anyone expert on say Asp.Net ... I just know VB myself, TK -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? That's only really useful if you want to run on anything other windows. The fact that they want to use .NET I presume means they like windows. Russ -Original Message- From: Doug Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 September 2006 13:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Coldfusion Web Server Support Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. Operating System Support Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. Net Web Server Support Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. Operating System Support Currently supports Microsoft WindowsR 2000, Windows XP, and the forthcoming Windows Server 2003. That all you need!! - Original Message - From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > This has never failed to work for me: > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > The End. > > ;) > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > Johnny > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254726 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
The only points that sometimes work (in my experience) are: 1) security issues (doesn't matter if true or false) 2) developement time/costs m. -Original Message- From: "Snake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: CF-Talk Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:35:16 +0100 Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? That's only really useful if you want to run on anything other windows. The fact that they want to use .NET I presume means they like windows. Russ -Original Message- From: Doug Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 September 2006 13:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Coldfusion Web Server Support Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. Operating System Support Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. Net Web Server Support Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. Operating System Support Currently supports Microsoft WindowsR 2000, Windows XP, and the forthcoming Windows Server 2003. That all you need!! - Original Message - From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > This has never failed to work for me: > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > The End. > > ;) > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > Johnny > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254725 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
That's only really useful if you want to run on anything other windows. The fact that they want to use .NET I presume means they like windows. Russ -Original Message- From: Doug Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 September 2006 13:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? Coldfusion Web Server Support Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. Operating System Support Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. ...Net Web Server Support Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. Operating System Support Currently supports Microsoft WindowsR 2000, Windows XP, and the forthcoming Windows Server 2003. That all you need!! - Original Message - From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > This has never failed to work for me: > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > The End. > > ;) > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > Johnny > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254721 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
funnyI guess MS is lagging behind a little. Doug - Original Message - From: "David Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:18 AM Subject: RE: CF vs. .NET presentations? > You'd have to update that a bit - Windows Server 2003 was 'upcoming' > about four years ago :-) > > > -Original Message- > > From: Doug Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: 29 September 2006 13:18 > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > Coldfusion > > > > Web Server Support > > Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. > > > > Operating System Support > > Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. > > > > ..Net > > > > Web Server Support > > Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. > > > > Operating System Support > > Currently supports Microsoft Windows(r) 2000, Windows XP, and the > > forthcoming > > Windows Server 2003. > > > > That all you need!! > > - Original Message - > > From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Talk" > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM > > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > > > > This has never failed to work for me: > > > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > > > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > > > The End. > > > > > > ;) > > > > > > > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with > BlueDragon.NET > > > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? > A > > > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to > be > > > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do > it in > > > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please > give us > > > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > > > > > Johnny > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254720 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: CF vs. .NET presentations?
You'd have to update that a bit - Windows Server 2003 was 'upcoming' about four years ago :-) > -Original Message- > From: Doug Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 29 September 2006 13:18 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > Coldfusion > > Web Server Support > Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. > > Operating System Support > Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. > > ..Net > > Web Server Support > Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. > > Operating System Support > Currently supports Microsoft Windows(r) 2000, Windows XP, and the > forthcoming > Windows Server 2003. > > That all you need!! > - Original Message - > From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM > Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > > > > This has never failed to work for me: > > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > > The End. > > > > ;) > > > > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A > > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be > > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in > > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us > > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > > > Johnny > > > > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254719 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
Coldfusion Web Server Support Supports IIS, Sun ONE, Netscape IPlanet, and Apache. Operating System Support Supports Windows, Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX. ..Net Web Server Support Supports IIS and Covalent's commercial version of Apache 2.0. Operating System Support Currently supports Microsoft Windows® 2000, Windows XP, and the forthcoming Windows Server 2003. That all you need!! - Original Message - From: "Peter Boughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:00 AM Subject: Re: CF vs. .NET presentations? > This has never failed to work for me: > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > The End. > > ;) > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Have any of you done a presentation to justify using CF over .NET? A > > friend of mine just got a big contract, but the owner wants it to be > > done in .NET. My friend is trying to convince him to let him do it in > > CF. If you have done a similar presentation, would you please give us > > some pointers? Thanks. > > > Johnny > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254718 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: CF vs. .NET presentations?
BlueDragon beta 7 was just released. On 9/29/06, Peter Boughton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This has never failed to work for me: > Slide 1: .NET is a pile of poo! > Slide 2: CF is wonderful!!! > The End. > > ;) > > > Alternatively, you could go for the "both" option, with BlueDragon.NET > http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/index.cfm > > > ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:254716 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
