Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[TPiwowar]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:44 AM Sep 11, Steve at Verizon wrote:

t.piwowar wrote:
Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check?  
Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is  
here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif

This was the Bush party line when he grew the National Debt.


Should we stop doing the math properly just because Bush did it  
properly too?


Your logic continues to be cracked.




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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[TPiwowar]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:15 AM Sep 11, mike wrote:
Socialism is a word like any other, a construct of humans and  
governments.
Neither good nor bad, Tom is being mighty ignorant here since both  
the nazi
and soviets called themselves and acted in great part in a  
socialistic way.


Another demonstration of piss poor logic. These evil doers did a lot  
of things, as did Reagan and Bush. Their hearts beat. Blood flowed  
through their veins. They breathed in air. By your logic all these  
activities should be condemned by virtue of guilt by association.


If you truly believe what you wrote you need to promptly stop all of  
the above.






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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	I used to fly mostly out of Seattle and mainly to places on the west  
coast. However, I have been to Florida and Hawaii quite a few times  
over the past 20 or so years. I haven't noticed prices changing that  
drastically. With the exception of flying first class to Hawaii this  
last time. No 6 hours on the plane sitting on a stool for me.  
Exaggeration, but close enough. I'm also an airline flight prices  
junkie. I hit cheaptickets.com daily. And prices can be deceptive  
nowadays. Horizon air (owned by Alaska air) now charges at check in  
for even the first bag checked. Kind of irritating if you didn't show  
up prepared to pay it. Which I noticed this last trip to San Diego  
that several kids had.



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On Sep 11, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

Actually, I am a liberal concerning airline deregulation. It opened  
inexpensive air travel to the masses. Competition brought us Peoples  
Express (remember them?) and then SW and Jet Blue. Granted, flying  
in coach today is much like taking the bus as far as amenities. I  
remember flying before 1978. A round trip to the coast was over  
$1000, and that was in 1970s dollars. And it was for the elite and  
businessmen primarily. Today you can go to the coast with Jet Blue  
for $500.


I will grant you that some regulations may be needed to solve the  
horrors of 8 hour waits on the runway.


Jeff Miles wrote:
   I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most  
of the time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives  
most of the time. Stupid ideas see no political bias.



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On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry,  
the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic  
Congress.

See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.

t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was  
as affordable as it is today.


Very true,except that today we have more information about fares.


You only get less for your $ today.


Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can  
leave you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12  
hours and laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling  
the NY office of the CAB several times about abusive airline  
practices. I still smile as I recall they guys there with their  
thick Brooklyn accents giving me tactical advice and regulations  
to cite. It was magical. When I would get to the airline counter  
and they would try to screw me once again I would mutter a few  
rule numbers and "screw you" became "yes sir, we can book you  
with another airline and we'll pay the difference." Those were  
the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell  
us how ineffective it is.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	This makes no sense to me. Control is control, regardless of who's  
doing it. So it's ok for your neighbor to tell you what you can or  
can't do, but not for that sap from Maine directing what you can or  
can't do?



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On Sep 11, 2009, at 7:37 AM, mike wrote:

Then the socialists should pick a better word.  I'm speaking in  
broader
terms keeping in mind the people the big O has surrounded himself  
with over
his lifetime.  I'm also talking about keeping the federal government  
from
gaining even more control, keep these things within the states where  
it

belongs.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[b_s-wilk]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its 
means.


Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you 
look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: 
http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif

The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 50s. You 
should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just fine.

This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was inherited by the 
current administration and that they have increased it by just a tiny amount. 
When you consider what a mess they are up against that increase is perfectly 
reasonable. The alternative would be far worse. The best way to pay down the 
debt is to get the economy going again. Note that Clinton did precisely that.

You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor.


The two main reasons that the national debt is up this year, aside from 
the financial incompetence and theft of the previous administration, are 
that all the costs of two wars [including war profiteers] and GWOT are 
now listed in the budget. Those items--well over $1 trillion--along with 
the deliberate run-up of debt to bankrupt the US Treasury by 
Reagan-Bush-Bush policies represent almost all of the national debt. The 
remaining amounts are the funds being used to repair the financial 
damage, and to provide programs for people, rather than corporations, 
for a change.


The lowest point in the debt graph was Carter's last budget that ran 
into the first year of Reagan's administration. After that first year, 
the debt "lurched" upward, in a planned policy to bankrupt the middle 
class as well as the US government [see David Stockman's book, The 
Triumph of Politics: Why the Reagan Revolution Failed, and Grover 
Norquist's goal to drown the federal government, i.e. "Starve the Beast"].



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[mike]

It's all ok, Geithner and O are asking congress to raise the debt ceiling to
12t.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

> t.piwowar wrote:
>
>> On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
>>
>>> An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy
>>> beyond its means.
>>>
>>
>> Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly
>> you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here:
>> http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif
>>
> This was the Bush party line when he grew the National Debt.
>
>>
>> The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 50s.
>> You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just fine.
>>
> The problem with the huge national debt is that it will soon become the
> largest item in the federal budget. That was not the case back in the 40s
> and 50s.
>
>
> http://www.federalbudget.com/
>
> I agree with you that the previous administration ( which included 2 years
> of a Democratic Congress) was fiscally irresponsible and ran up the National
> Debt. I condemn that profligate spending.
> But the party fully in charge now has quadrupled the budget deficits which
> will drive up the National Debt unless they enact massive tax increases.
>
>>
>> This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was inherited
>> by the current administration and that they have increased it by just a tiny
>> amount. When you consider what a mess they are up against that increase is
>> perfectly reasonable. The alternative would be far worse. The best way to
>> pay down the debt is to get the economy going again.
>>
> Again, the was the Bush mantra for his excessive spending.
>
>> Note that Clinton did precisely that.
>>
>
> Don't forget that Clinton had a Republican Congress to somewhat restrain
> growth in spending (before they went hogwild with Bush). And most of the
> gusher of revenue during the short surplus period was due to capital gains
> from the skyrocketing stock market whose underlying values were phony.
> Remember the tech bubble and Enron?
>
>
>> You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor.
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Steve at Verizon]

Actually, I am a liberal concerning airline deregulation. It opened 
inexpensive air travel to the masses. Competition brought us Peoples 
Express (remember them?) and then SW and Jet Blue. Granted, flying in 
coach today is much like taking the bus as far as amenities. I remember 
flying before 1978. A round trip to the coast was over $1000, and that 
was in 1970s dollars. And it was for the elite and businessmen 
primarily. Today you can go to the coast with Jet Blue for $500.


I will grant you that some regulations may be needed to solve the 
horrors of 8 hour waits on the runway.


Jeff Miles wrote:
I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most of 
the time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives most of 
the time. Stupid ideas see no political bias.



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the 
wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.

See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.

t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as 
affordable as it is today.


Very true,except that today we have more information about fares.


You only get less for your $ today.


Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave 
you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and 
laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office 
of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still 
smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents 
giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. 
When I would get to the airline counter and they would try to screw 
me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and "screw you" 
became "yes sir, we can book you with another airline and we'll pay 
the difference." Those were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the 
government and now tell us how ineffective it is.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Steve at Verizon]

t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy 
beyond its means.


Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? 
Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: 
http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif

This was the Bush party line when he grew the National Debt.


The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 
50s. You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just 
fine.
The problem with the huge national debt is that it will soon become the 
largest item in the federal budget. That was not the case back in the 
40s and 50s.



http://www.federalbudget.com/

I agree with you that the previous administration ( which included 2 
years of a Democratic Congress) was fiscally irresponsible and ran up 
the National Debt. I condemn that profligate spending.
But the party fully in charge now has quadrupled the budget deficits 
which will drive up the National Debt unless they enact massive tax 
increases.


This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was 
inherited by the current administration and that they have increased 
it by just a tiny amount. When you consider what a mess they are up 
against that increase is perfectly reasonable. The alternative would 
be far worse. The best way to pay down the debt is to get the economy 
going again.

Again, the was the Bush mantra for his excessive spending.

Note that Clinton did precisely that.


Don't forget that Clinton had a Republican Congress to somewhat restrain 
growth in spending (before they went hogwild with Bush). And most of the 
gusher of revenue during the short surplus period was due to capital 
gains from the skyrocketing stock market whose underlying values were 
phony. Remember the tech bubble and Enron?


You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Steve at Verizon]

I was replying to the complaints about how horrible flying was today and 
how much better it was when it used to be federally regulated. I was 
just pointing out who did the deregulation.


t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the 
wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.

See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.


Are we talking policy or are you starting a Jimmy Carter fan club 
here? It is impossible to keep you on topic and making a logical 
progression from one fact to the next.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[mike]

Then the socialists should pick a better word.  I'm speaking in broader
terms keeping in mind the people the big O has surrounded himself with over
his lifetime.  I'm also talking about keeping the federal government from
gaining even more control, keep these things within the states where it
belongs.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Chris Dunford  wrote:

> > *. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom.
> > Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object
> > worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to
> > work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say.
> > Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist
> system
> > can be established without a political police. They would have to fall
> back
> > on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first
> > instance
> >
> > Winston Churchill
> > *
>
> Oh, dear. I'm afraid you've just stepped in it, Mike. That's a postwar
> campaign quote, a broadside from Churchill's 15-inch oratorical guns, aimed
> squarely at Clement Attlee. It was hyperbole, and it
> cost him dearly. Attlee responded by thanking Churchill for providing a
> clear demonstration of the difference between a great wartime leader and a
> typical peacetime politician.
>
> In fact, the British National Health Service originated from a report
> commissioned by the WW2 Churchill government--a report that Churchill
> endorsed and would have implemented had he not been voted
> out of office in 1945. Instead, Attlee's government implemented it in 1948.
> When Churchill returned to power in 1951, he could easily have scrapped it,
> and many in the Conservative Party wanted him to
> do just that. He did not; on the contrary, he increased its funding. (As
> did Margaret Thatcher, by the way, the very Toriest of modern Tories.)
>
> Here's a pre-campaign Churchill quote that shows his position far more
> accurately, from 1944. Note clearly the final sentence. In the future you
> will want to avoid citing Churchill on this. He
> understood the difference between a Marxist regime and the provision of
> critical social programs by a democratic government--a distinction that
> seems to escape so many American conservatives.
>
> "The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is
> clear. Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the
> richest man or woman simply on the ground that it
> is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire
> brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as
> to the most important mansion. Our policy is to
> create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the
> country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal
> opportunities to benefit from the best and most
> up-to-date medical and allied services available."
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Chris Dunford]

> *. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom.
> Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object
> worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to
> work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say.
> Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system
> can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back
> on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first
> instance
> 
> Winston Churchill
> *

Oh, dear. I'm afraid you've just stepped in it, Mike. That's a postwar campaign 
quote, a broadside from Churchill's 15-inch oratorical guns, aimed squarely at 
Clement Attlee. It was hyperbole, and it
cost him dearly. Attlee responded by thanking Churchill for providing a clear 
demonstration of the difference between a great wartime leader and a typical 
peacetime politician.

In fact, the British National Health Service originated from a report 
commissioned by the WW2 Churchill government--a report that Churchill endorsed 
and would have implemented had he not been voted
out of office in 1945. Instead, Attlee's government implemented it in 1948. 
When Churchill returned to power in 1951, he could easily have scrapped it, and 
many in the Conservative Party wanted him to
do just that. He did not; on the contrary, he increased its funding. (As did 
Margaret Thatcher, by the way, the very Toriest of modern Tories.)

Here's a pre-campaign Churchill quote that shows his position far more 
accurately, from 1944. Note clearly the final sentence. In the future you will 
want to avoid citing Churchill on this. He
understood the difference between a Marxist regime and the provision of 
critical social programs by a democratic government--a distinction that seems 
to escape so many American conservatives.

"The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is 
clear. Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the 
richest man or woman simply on the ground that it
is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade 
will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most 
important mansion. Our policy is to
create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the 
country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal 
opportunities to benefit from the best and most
up-to-date medical and allied services available."


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[mike]

Socialism is a word like any other, a construct of humans and governments.
Neither good nor bad, Tom is being mighty ignorant here since both the nazi
and soviets called themselves and acted in great part in a socialistic way.
Then of course you can discuss the merits of the pseudo socialism of the UK
or canada etc.  Historically the United States however has been opposed to
this kind of central governmental control even though for the last hundred
years we've been lurching towards it.  The problem comes in that the reality
of socialism more often then not takes a negative form.  I know lefties like
Tom won't understand, but those who do not support socialism, do not because
personal freedom is more important then collective bondage.

*. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom.
Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object
worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to
work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say.
Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system
can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back
on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first
instance

Winston Churchill
*
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:03 PM, t.piwowar  wrote:

> On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
>
>> Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.
>>
>
>
> "Socialism" is simply "opposition to the untrammeled workings of the
> economic market." Most of the world embraces "socialism." "Socialism" is a
> good and virtuous thing. Anyone who does not support "socialism" is either
> evil or a nut job. Which one are you?
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	And people are just figuring this out. You'd figure not being able to  
make a house payment on a house they couldn't afford in the first  
place would have been a big clue.



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On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:56 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:


Profit, no, but break even has a certain appeal.

An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy  
beyond its means.


t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

How about if they break even?  That would be a hoot.


What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time.  
That would really be a hoot.


"Profit" and "break even" are not useful concepts for thinking  
about how governments work. Any discussion built around those  
concepts will be illogical. you wast our time.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:59 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
	This is wrong. Competition only needs a winner and looser at the  
end of the game. However during it both sides should stay  
competitive. And yes, I'll worry, along with you, when the game is  
over.


Eventually the Sun will go super nova and the game will be over. At  
that point we won't care, but that is sufficiently far into the future  
that the end of the game is not something that is worth thinking about.


In real life there is no need for the concept of winners and losers.  
That assumes a "zero sum game." That happens in sports, but is not a  
useful concept for real life. Real life is best approached as a  
"positive sum game." All players are made better off by playing it.  
Approaching life as a zero sum game is usually immoral.


 



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit

[Jeff Miles]

	That was kind of my point. Not really happy about the thought of  
paying for a house that burned to the ground 5 years earlier. But the  
option of not buying insurance should be there. That's tort reform for  
you. Hard to sue an insurance company if you never paid for it in the  
first place. This of course assumes your insurance company is refusing  
to pay your claim.



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On Sep 10, 2009, at 10:09 PM, t.piwowar wrote:


On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm  
all for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near  
everything. Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house?  
You don't have to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You  
don't have to have whatever insurance. You want to live a few years  
more? You don't have to buy health insurance. But the option could  
be there if you do.


Fine, but if you do opt out of medical insurance and you don't have  
proof of cash up front and you do have an accident the ambulance  
will refuse to transport you. We just let you bleed to death on the  
side of the road. You fine with that?



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy  
beyond its means.


Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check?  
Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif


The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and  
50s. You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just  
fine.


This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was  
inherited by the current administration and that they have increased  
it by just a tiny amount. When you consider what a mess they are up  
against that increase is perfectly reasonable. The alternative would  
be far worse. The best way to pay down the debt is to get the economy  
going again. Note that Clinton did precisely that.


You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most of the  
time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives most of the  
time. Stupid ideas see no political bias.



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry,  
the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.

See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.

t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as  
affordable as it is today.


Very true,except that today we have more information about fares.


You only get less for your $ today.


Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave  
you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and  
laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY  
office of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I  
still smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn  
accents giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was  
magical. When I would get to the airline counter and they would try  
to screw me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and "screw  
you" became "yes sir, we can book you with another airline and  
we'll pay the difference." Those were the days. Then the wingnuts  
wrecked the government and now tell us how ineffective it is.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	This is wrong. Competition only needs a winner and looser at the end  
of the game. However during it both sides should stay competitive. And  
yes, I'll worry, along with you, when the game is over.



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:44 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the  
implied (turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could  
borrow at rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how  
they made those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin  
Raines made his 90 mil during the same years that Fanny Mae couldn't  
produce a yearly financial report.


In order to say you have a competition, then you have to have  
winners and losers. Do you really think that if a public option were  
set up to compete, that it would have a chance in hell of losing.


t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
You can't "compete" with the govt.  "Choice" with the state is a  
bug, not a feature.


This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut  
mantra. Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry,  
the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.

See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.


Are we talking policy or are you starting a Jimmy Carter fan club  
here? It is impossible to keep you on topic and making a logical  
progression from one fact to the next.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit

[C Ballinger]

Hello kettle?

I love that line! 

cb
_



On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26, "t.piwowar"  wrote:


On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:
For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the  
United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard.
Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba  
to have open heart surgery instead of having it done by a  
specialist here?
You answered no...I'm certain...which means then, that health care  
is NOT better in Cuba.


Inability to think straight seems to be a recurring theme here. Open  
heart surgery is a specific procedure and is in no way indicative of  
quality of health care.


On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:
Socializing our health care system will not only hurt our  
economy...but it will ruin medicine in the United States.


How do you get to such a sweeping and bizarre conclusion? There is  
no logical way to get to such a conclusion from the data. If you  
build your case on the foundation of such nonsense you have no case.


On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:

85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care


Not true.

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans,  
or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without  
health insurance in 2007"

www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

That would mean that only 82% have health insurance, so how can it  
be that "85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health  
care?" Is Hamid Karzai your pollster?


And on an on. You are just spouting nonsense.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:44 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the  
implied (turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could  
borrow at rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how  
they made those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin  
Raines made his 90 mil during the same years that Fanny Mae couldn't  
produce a yearly financial report.


Well here you go changing the subject again in the hope that you can  
maybe prevail in another arena.


Clearly you do not know that Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac do. They are  
clearing houses or facilitators that work with *privately-held* banks  
and other *private* financial firms to securitize mortgages. Between  
the two of them they handle only about half of this kind of business  
so there is plenty of competition. The reason there are two of them is  
to further enhance competition.


If you want to call them socialist than by the same logic the New York  
Stock Exchange is socialist. You gat an "F" on the facts and an "F" on  
your logic. You make no sense at all.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:
For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the  
United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard.
Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba to  
have open heart surgery instead of having it done by a specialist  
here?
You answered no...I'm certain...which means then, that health care  
is NOT better in Cuba.


Inability to think straight seems to be a recurring theme here. Open  
heart surgery is a specific procedure and is in no way indicative of  
quality of health care.


On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:
Socializing our health care system will not only hurt our  
economy...but it will ruin medicine in the United States.


How do you get to such a sweeping and bizarre conclusion? There is no  
logical way to get to such a conclusion from the data. If you build  
your case on the foundation of such nonsense you have no case.


On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:

85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care


Not true.

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or  
18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health  
insurance in 2007"

www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

That would mean that only 82% have health insurance, so how can it be  
that "85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health  
care?" Is Hamid Karzai your pollster?


And on an on. You are just spouting nonsense.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

It is called universal or one payer healthcare.
Nothing socialistic about it.


Nope. It is socialism through and through. It is the right thing to do.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all  
for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything.  
Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have  
to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You don't have to  
have whatever insurance. You want to live a few years more? You  
don't have to buy health insurance. But the option could be there if  
you do.


Fine, but if you do opt out of medical insurance and you don't have  
proof of cash up front and you do have an accident the ambulance will  
refuse to transport you. We just let you bleed to death on the side of  
the road. You fine with that?



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:59 PM, mike wrote:
I heard someone saying on the radio or television, I don't recall  
where,
that we should require when any new law goes on the books they  
should have

to remove one also.


Probably Fox. Most of the utterly stupid commentary comes from there.  
Only an idiot would think this way.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
Every year we work longer and longer to pay the guvmint our tax  
burden and
every year we become less free as more laws are passed that restrict  
our

freedom just a little bit more than last year.


False. What planet do you live on?


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:
I'm an ignorant ass because I don't agree with you and don't see why  
you keep refusing to understand the word "option"?


Same thing happens with these folks when the topic is computers. They  
simply refuse to acknowledge key facts and will argue round and round  
the facts then try to change the subject. A dearth or logic and an  
abundance of debating tactics.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Steve at Verizon]

Profit, no, but break even has a certain appeal.

An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy 
beyond its means.


t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

How about if they break even?  That would be a hoot.


What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time. 
That would really be a hoot.


"Profit" and "break even" are not useful concepts for thinking about 
how governments work. Any discussion built around those concepts will 
be illogical. you wast our time.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Steve at Verizon]

No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the implied 
(turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could borrow at 
rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how they made 
those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin Raines made 
his 90 mil during the same years that Fanny Mae couldn't produce a 
yearly financial report.


In order to say you have a competition, then you have to have winners 
and losers. Do you really think that if a public option were set up to 
compete, that it would have a chance in hell of losing.


t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
You can't "compete" with the govt.  "Choice" with the state is a bug, 
not a feature.


This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut mantra. 
Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Steve at Verizon]

If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the 
wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.

See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.

t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as 
affordable as it is today.


Very true,except that today we have more information about fares.


You only get less for your $ today.


Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you 
sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh 
about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the 
CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I 
recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me 
tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would 
get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I 
would mutter a few rule numbers and "screw you" became "yes sir, we 
can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference." Those 
were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell 
us how ineffective it is.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:33 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of  
taking customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both  
Medicare and private health care will go down, as it has in many  
other countries with similar plans. Medicare costs and premiums will  
go down--"lurching" downward--when the pool is increased to include  
younger healthier people instead of only people over the age of 65.


Amen. There are so many good examples to emulate. They all have much  
lower costs and offer much better outcomes. Those people love their  
health plans.


But the wingnuts comb through the millions of people served by those  
health systems to find the 1 in a 100 examples where something  
went wrong and then try to convince us that this is how those systems  
work all the time. And when that fails they just out and out lie to  
us. Don't forget "Stephen Hawking likes his "Death Panel" Health Care  
just fine ..." http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/erica/2009/08/stephen-hawking-likes-his-deat.php



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

How about if they break even?  That would be a hoot.


What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time.  
That would really be a hoot.


"Profit" and "break even" are not useful concepts for thinking about  
how governments work. Any discussion built around those concepts will  
be illogical. you wast our time.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Jordan wrote:
_Oh, and by the way, these wingers who are against government  
involvement in health care because it's not in the constitution? I  
guess they are against Medicare too. Good luck with that.


I recall Trent Lott lecturing us while people were dying from tainted  
beef. His anti-regulation, free-market notion seemed to require that  
each of us acquire a food testing lab and take it to the grocery store  
every time we shopped.


Such jaw-dropping stupidity. As Barney Frank asks "What planet do you  
live on?"



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as  
affordable as it is today.


Very true,except that today we have more information about fares.


You only get less for your $ today.


Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you  
sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh  
about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the  
CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I  
recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me  
tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would  
get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I  
would mutter a few rule numbers and "screw you" became "yes sir, we  
can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference." Those  
were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell  
us how ineffective it is.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 6, 2009, at 2:04 PM, mike wrote:
Brilliant!  Socialism is great till you run out of everyone elses  
money.


But one doesn't. That is just a bogeyman invented by wing nuts who are  
bad at math.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:19 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
 What the hell came of creating the database/intranet of health  
care? Who was against it? What happened to the waste cutting? Where  
did it go? The company still exists, so.?


People were rightly nervous over such an operation being run by M$.  
Same thing happened when M$ tried to muscle into the financial  
services business.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.



"Socialism" is simply "opposition to the untrammeled workings of the  
economic market." Most of the world embraces "socialism." "Socialism"  
is a good and virtuous thing. Anyone who does not support "socialism"  
is either evil or a nut job. Which one are you?



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
You can't "compete" with the govt.  "Choice" with the state is a  
bug, not a feature.


This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut mantra.  
Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point.


Precisely the point. You don't see much through your ideological haze  
and trying to provoke thought is quite impossible.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[katan]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 18:35:59 -0500, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

>Did you ever read on how he got his transplant?
>
>It is an interesting story and shows you the disparity we have at 
>present in the Medical Insurance system.
>
>At 06:27 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
>
>>Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic,
>>like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . .

Please, no, Stewart, I *REALY* don't want to keep this stoopid thread
going.

--
   R:\katan

LET'S GO METS!!  LET'S GO METS!!


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Did you ever read on how he got his transplant?

It is an interesting story and shows you the disparity we have at 
present in the Medical Insurance system.


Stewart


At 06:27 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:

Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic,
like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . .


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[katan]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:57:52 -0400, Jeff Wright wrote:

>I'm out of this discussion at this point.  It has devolved into the usual
>partisan nonsense.

Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic,
like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . .

--
   R:\katan

There's only 10 kinds of people who understand binary.
Those who do, and those who don't.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[mike]

I heard someone saying on the radio or television, I don't recall where,
that we should require when any new law goes on the books they should have
to remove one also.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Miles  wrote:

>Now here I totally agree with you. But we, the government, is mostly
> the problem. We make new laws on knee jerk reactions. We rarely take old
> laws off the books.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	So we have things in place that could lower all our costs but we  
aren't using them. To me this sounds like a very good reason for  
government/us to get involved.



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 6:27 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did  
not.


Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with  
the latest technology.


With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one  
clinic (Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records on  
computers.  He was able to call up the record, even an MRI on tablet  
and then send it to a viewer and show us the MRI.


This is out of 10 doctors 1 did it this way.

Not good stats.

Stewart


At 11:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:
   Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim  
Clark

started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.
Whatever happened with that?

Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Now here I totally agree with you. But we, the government, is mostly  
the problem. We make new laws on knee jerk reactions. We rarely take  
old laws off the books. Corporations constantly want more and more for  
their work force $, and we seem to feel it's our responsibility to  
give it to them while COEs are making hundreds of millions of $ in  
bonuses. We have to blame ourselves because we're letting them do it.
	On the healthcare issue, I'm for providing for everyone. However I'm  
totally against the insurance industry. Do I realistically think  
there's anything I can do about that? No.
	I had mentioned before that I have congestive heart failure. After  
being diagnosed I paid all my medical bills and prescriptions myself.  
I didn't mind. I've always thought if you need something you pay for  
it. It wasn't till 4 years later and put in the ICU that some lady  
filled out a bunch of paperwork for me and now I get SSI and  
Washington STATE pays all my medical bills. I'm not going to complain.  
I didn't realize they would do that, but now that they are my money  
gets filtered into the economy in different areas. Regardless of who  
gets it, sooner or later it's going to end up there and not in my  
pocket. Why, because I like THINGS.



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On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:45 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:


We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp.

I'm

not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens.
Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control?

By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets

see

what happens when no one votes. Then we're talking revolution.


Every year we work longer and longer to pay the guvmint our tax  
burden and
every year we become less free as more laws are passed that restrict  
our

freedom just a little bit more than last year.

At this point, you're in the pot and think the water temperature is  
just

fine.  You won't think anything is wrong until the soup's done.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	I'm an ignorant ass because I don't agree with you and don't see why  
you keep refusing to understand the word "option"? If that's the case  
I guess I'm an ignorant ass most of the time. It's worked for me for  
47 years, why quit now?



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On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:47 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:


Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of "option" won't

flow

through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have
to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance.
Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the
wall a few more times and it might sink in.



Yep.  Should have started punching myself in the head.  The end  
result is

the same.

Go be an ignorant ass on someone else's time.  Buh-bye.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	That would be nice, but far from a requirement. We buy goods and  
services because we want them. How many things do you own that  
actually make you money? And be honest here. Do most things you own  
supply you with a check at the end of the month you can take to the  
bank? I realize anything can be rationalized, just like healthcare  
keeping people healthy so they can work and better our economy.  
However that's not why I'm for it. I just think people should be  
healthy. The healthier they are, chances are the healthier I'll be.



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:


Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created

and

meant to make a profit.


Ya think?

How about if they break even?  That would be a hoot.





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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

When I worked for the Vet Company as hardware support, we were often 
chided for what we charged for support and equipment by those who had 
no support contracts.


It was explained to us this way.  You are giving them a 
service.,  They have no compunction charging you for a service when 
you go into the Vet clinic so you should not feel bad about charging 
them for a service when they call here.


By the way the guy telling us this had been a practicing Vet.

Doctors can complain that it will cost them money to spend on the 
technology, but that is short term foolish.  The long term gains they 
could make from increased efficiency, less duplication, better 
service, less mistakes would be recouped by increased profits fast..


Stewart


At 12:23 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first 
started going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without 
insurance. I think it's $35 or $40 now. She knows how to milk the 
Pharma system, taking as many samples as she can, then giving them to 
those who need them most and can least afford them.


Her waiting room tables and magazine stands are covered with 
computer mags--Macworld, PC World, IT mags, etc. She started 
automating at least ten years ago on her own. She walks around with 
a portable phone clipped to her belt and a bluetooth headset, to 
take patient calls. Her records are digital, as are the 
prescriptions she writes.


She's a real geek--in a good way--and is a good advocate for her 
patients whose insurance companies deny procedures that they're 
supposed to cover. She's had to raise fees over the years to cover 
the cost of a separate office that only handles insurance claim problems.


Betty


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Good for her.

I applaud professionals like that and if I were close I would use her.

Stewart


At 12:23 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first 
started going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without 
insurance. I think it's $35 or $40 now. She knows how to milk the 
Pharma system, taking as many samples as she can, then giving them to 
those who need them most and can least afford them.


Her waiting room tables and magazine stands are covered with 
computer mags--Macworld, PC World, IT mags, etc. She started 
automating at least ten years ago on her own. She walks around with 
a portable phone clipped to her belt and a bluetooth headset, to 
take patient calls. Her records are digital, as are the 
prescriptions she writes.


She's a real geek--in a good way--and is a good advocate for her 
patients whose insurance companies deny procedures that they're 
supposed to cover. She's had to raise fees over the years to cover 
the cost of a separate office that only handles insurance claim problems.


Betty


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[b_s-wilk]

One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not.

Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with the latest 
technology.

With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one clinic 
(Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records on computers.  He was 
able to call up the record, even an MRI on tablet and then send it to a viewer 
and show us the MRI.

This is out of 10 doctors 1 did it this way.

Not good stats.

Stewart 



My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first started 
going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without insurance. 
I think it's $35 or $40 now. She knows how to milk the Pharma system, 
taking as many samples as she can, then giving them to those who need 
them most and can least afford them.


Her waiting room tables and magazine stands are covered with computer 
mags--Macworld, PC World, IT mags, etc. She started automating at least 
ten years ago on her own. She walks around with a portable phone clipped 
to her belt and a bluetooth headset, to take patient calls. Her records 
are digital, as are the prescriptions she writes.


She's a real geek--in a good way--and is a good advocate for her 
patients whose insurance companies deny procedures that they're supposed 
to cover. She's had to raise fees over the years to cover the cost of a 
separate office that only handles insurance claim problems.


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:33 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:

> You have the corporate talking points well-memorized.
>
> Medicare has an overhead of 2-4%. For-profit companies have overhead of
> 15-30% or more with the top crooks being paid huge salaries/bonuses with the
> money made from not paying their customers' claims. It isn't difficult to
> adjust the basis for Medicare to extend its longevity, although it isn't
> "lurching towards insolvency", except that Bush used the Medicare funds to
> pay for his wars instead of saving it for health care costs. That theft of
> Medicare funds to pay for war--off budget--is another act that has led to
> exploding debt that the current administration has to deal with.
>
> By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of taking
> customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both Medicare and private
> health care will go down, as it has in many other countries with similar
> plans. Medicare costs and premiums will go down--"lurching" downward--when
> the pool is increased to include younger healthier people instead of only
> people over the age of 65.

  If you continue to provide information that makes too much sense you
are going to further confuse those who have already been confused by
too much misinformation.  They may then be in need of psychological
help that is probably not covered by their insurance plan.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[b_s-wilk]

Actually, you will find the banks that survived were the ones who were more
diversified in their holdings.  The one that went tits up were the old
investment houses that only recently started banking businesses.


> And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the
> states? You might find the answer above.


And why is Medicare an actuarial mess and lurching towards insolvency?  


I think you'll find your answer somewhere around reality.



You have the corporate talking points well-memorized.

Medicare has an overhead of 2-4%. For-profit companies have overhead of 
15-30% or more with the top crooks being paid huge salaries/bonuses with 
the money made from not paying their customers' claims. It isn't 
difficult to adjust the basis for Medicare to extend its longevity, 
although it isn't "lurching towards insolvency", except that Bush used 
the Medicare funds to pay for his wars instead of saving it for health 
care costs. That theft of Medicare funds to pay for war--off budget--is 
another act that has led to exploding debt that the current 
administration has to deal with.


By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of 
taking customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both Medicare 
and private health care will go down, as it has in many other countries 
with similar plans. Medicare costs and premiums will go down--"lurching" 
downward--when the pool is increased to include younger healthier people 
instead of only people over the age of 65.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[b_s-wilk]

> As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure
> you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments. It's
> their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than
> ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban
> government, thanks to US intervention and unnecessary embargos, is
> oppressive, and the people are suffering from that. Government
> oppression has not affected the affordability and quality of outcomes in
> Cuba, which are more favorable than in the US, with insurance and care
> universally available, unlike here.


I was wondering when you would get around to apologizing for tyrants.

The Cuban govt is oppressive because it chooses to be and can be.  The embargo 
is stupid and should have been lifted long ago, but many, many other countries 
have managed to oppress their people without any US embargo.

I thought of you and your talking points post when I read Camille Paglia's 
latest column.



Oh, please, not Camille Paglia! She's a walking oxymoron--a hostile 
misogynist feminist flamethrower. Is she stupid enough to think that 
town hall disruptions and "teabaggers" weren't Astroturf corporate 
shills and misinformed puppets? I doubt it. Does she really believe that 
Democrats as a whole are wealthy zombies? Get real. It's an umbrella 
coalition with diverse factions. A flame-thrower for over 30 years, 
Paglia doesn't like to be confused with the facts when her reality 
distortions get her more money and recognition. Seems to be the kind of 
liberal that David Horowitz and Linda Chavez were before they found out 
they could make more money pretending to be conservative.


Your mistake is twofold. First you are equating the Cuban government 
with its generous social system. It's encouraging that an oppressive 
government takes care of its citizens as well as it can afford, unless, 
of course, you directly oppose the government and are thrown in jail. 
The Cuban government is oppressive because some leaders are paranoid and 
power-hungry.


The paranoia is understandable considering the more severe oppression of 
US-backed Fulgencio Batista, who was given $1 million each day by the 
Mafia, to allow them to rape the country in the aftermath of the coups 
that overthrew popularly elected presidents, as the US did in Nicaragua, 
Panama, Iran, Australia, Mexico, and other countries. The main 
difference is that the proximity of Cuba made both sides even more 
paranoid than other countries that suffered from US manipulation.


The widespread mis-/disinformation that's readily believed by too many 
Americans is a failure of our education system, dumbed down by Bush-era 
changes in NCLB, emphasizing multiple-guess tests instead of teaching 
and encouraging children to be able to discern fact from fiction, in 
printed media, and especially on the Internet.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> IT IS NEITHER!
> 
> It is called universal or one payer healthcare.
> 
> Nothing socialistic about it.

Then that word does not mean what you think it means.

I'm out of this discussion at this point.  It has devolved into the usual
partisan nonsense.

If leftists have any sense, they'll read and soak in the Paglia piece.  I'm
not holding breath.  She's probably being purged from the community as we
speak for her disloyalty and temerity.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

IT IS NEITHER!

It is called universal or one payer healthcare.

Nothing socialistic about it.

Stewart


At 01:42 AM 9/9/2009, you wrote:

Ok, how about socialized health care if we call it the Republican
Healthcare Initiative?


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


I find it funny that when "liberals" want change its called

socialism

or  pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for
change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up).


Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.

I don't think either are to far apart on what we all 
want, but we're

to damn stubborn to say, "hey, I agree with that."


Reinforcing the idea that "there isn't a dime's worth of difference"
between
the 2 parties.  If either party had any ideas worth agreeing with,
I'd be
all over it.  Still waiting for that.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not.

Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with 
the latest technology.


With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one 
clinic (Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records on 
computers.  He was able to call up the record, even an MRI on tablet 
and then send it to a viewer and show us the MRI.


This is out of 10 doctors 1 did it this way.

Not good stats.

Stewart


At 11:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark
started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.
Whatever happened with that?

Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jordan]

t.piwowar wrote:

On Sep 6, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
That food, which uses a mixed but largely free market system, is so 
cheap

and plentiful that even the poor can easily afford it, is lost on the
socialized medicine proponents.


Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another 
issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are 
polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our 
food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new 
strains of drug-resistant diseases. The corporate farmers are slowly 
killing us. Have a nice day!
There is also strong evidence that eating more than a little animal 
protein isn't healthy anyway, even if it wasn't laced with antibiotics 
and hormones. Read _The China Study._
But the corporate farmers are also polluting the land with chemical 
fertilizers and our bodies with GM and chemical laced vegetables.

_
_Oh, and by the way, these wingers who are against government 
involvement in health care because it's not in the constitution? I guess 
they are against Medicare too. Good luck with that.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp.
I'm
> not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens.
> Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control?
> 
>   By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets
see
> what happens when no one votes. Then we're talking revolution.

Every year we work longer and longer to pay the guvmint our tax burden and
every year we become less free as more laws are passed that restrict our
freedom just a little bit more than last year.

At this point, you're in the pot and think the water temperature is just
fine.  You won't think anything is wrong until the soup's done.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of "option" won't
flow
> through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have
> to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance.
>   Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the
> wall a few more times and it might sink in.


Yep.  Should have started punching myself in the head.  The end result is
the same.

Go be an ignorant ass on someone else's time.  Buh-bye.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created
and
> meant to make a profit.

Ya think?  

How about if they break even?  That would be a hoot.


 


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

Ok, how about socialized health care if we call it the Republican  
Healthcare Initiative?



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


I find it funny that when "liberals" want change its called

socialism

or  pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for
change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up).


Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.


I don't think either are to far apart on what we all want, but we're
to damn stubborn to say, "hey, I agree with that."


Reinforcing the idea that "there isn't a dime's worth of difference"  
between
the 2 parties.  If either party had any ideas worth agreeing with,  
I'd be

all over it.  Still waiting for that.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of "option" won't flow  
through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have  
to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance.
	Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the  
wall a few more times and it might sink in.



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On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:

Whjy are you afraid of a choice between the private insurers and a  
government

program? I said: choice.


Private insurers can't print money or tax their customers when times  
get tight.


You can't "compete" with the govt.  "Choice" with the state is a  
bug, not a feature.


If the issue are persons without insurance, then why are we talking  
about making a program for everyone else too?  As I said, it's a  
stalking horse for single-payer.


If it were only to cover the uninsured, then expanding Medicare  
coverage would be the expedient and practical solution.  It's not  
even on the table.


For a president who said that he didn't want any part in running an  
auto company, he sure seems all fired up to run an insurance company.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as  
affordable as it is today. You only get less for your $ today. I  
search flight prices on a weekly, if not daily schedule. Prices go up  
and down depending on when you search. But they haven't changed much  
in the last 20 years over all. Only the service has. I've started to  
wonder when they're going to start packing us in popcorn crates.  
Actually those would probably be to big. Get rid of the crates and  
popcorn. Let's just glue them all together and shove them inside.



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel
industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but
it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago


I fly a couple of times a year.  It's OK.

What I do know is that it's no longer only a tool for the  
businessman or the
wealthy as it was pre-deregulation.  Everyone can afford to fly now,  
which

in my book, is a great thing.

It's not the state-protected status quo, which again, that's a good  
thing.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Yes and no. Why are the both on the stock exchange as two separate  
entities? But that's not what I really asked. What the hell came of  
creating the database/intranet of health care? Who was against it?  
What happened to the waste cutting? Where did it go? The company still  
exists, so.?



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:50 PM, t.piwowar wrote:


On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark  
started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of  
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.  
Whatever happened with that?


Healtheon merged with WebMD in 1999.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	And that's why you're against health care reform and/or the public  
option, you have the blinders on?



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:41 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:

If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you  
are

not being nice.
If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them
you are not being nice.
If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help
them you are a criminal.

Tell us again that you don't see the difference.


The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point.

D-.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp. I'm  
not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens.  
Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control?


	By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets see  
what happens when no one votes. Then we're talking revolution.



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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


She said "we", she didn't say you. We aren't including you. So don't
bother voting next election. It won't be counted. You're not  
included.

Oh, we'll still be taking SS out of your paycheck. Probably L&I as
well, but you aren't part of our government. Wow, how freeing that
must feel. A man of the world.


Oh!  To the heart!  You big meanie.

Yes, it was a very nice DNC talking points post.  Filled with null  
data and

misty eyed nostalgic naiveté.

"We" ain't been the guvmint for some time now, but please, don't let  
me
interrupt the fantasy that any of us still have a role to play other  
than

thrall.

I knew I should have just started punching myself in the head,  
rather than
let myself get dragged into one of these pointless health care  
arguments.

It always degrades into partisan idiocy.  Life's too short...


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created and  
meant to make a profit. Can you imagine the bitching if they actually  
did? Where's the money going? Who's pockets are being lined? The  
complaining never stops. It's one reason I stopped being a  
professional photographer after 25 years. I got tired of saying, I'm  
sorry you're ugly. But paying me isn't going to change that. I'll just  
record the fact.



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:37 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:

You mean like when we got rid of the laws that required local  
banking?

That worked very well. Didn't it?

If you look for banks that did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco
you will find that these were banks run by local bankers who knew who
and what was getting the loan. You will also find that such banks  
that

are willing to work with their customers when times get tough and did
not rush to foreclose.


Actually, you will find the banks that survived were the ones who  
were more

diversified in their holdings.  The one that went tits up were the old
investment houses that only recently started banking businesses.


And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the
states? You might find the answer above.


And why is Medicare an actuarial mess and lurching towards insolvency?

I think you'll find your answer somewhere around reality.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   I find it funny that when "liberals" want change its called
socialism
> or  pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for
> change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up).

Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.

>   I don't think either are to far apart on what we all want, but we're
> to damn stubborn to say, "hey, I agree with that."

Reinforcing the idea that "there isn't a dime's worth of difference" between
the 2 parties.  If either party had any ideas worth agreeing with, I'd be
all over it.  Still waiting for that.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> Whjy are you afraid of a choice between the private insurers and a government
> program? I said: choice.

Private insurers can't print money or tax their customers when times get tight.

You can't "compete" with the govt.  "Choice" with the state is a bug, not a 
feature.

If the issue are persons without insurance, then why are we talking about 
making a program for everyone else too?  As I said, it's a stalking horse for 
single-payer.

If it were only to cover the uninsured, then expanding Medicare coverage would 
be the expedient and practical solution.  It's not even on the table.

For a president who said that he didn't want any part in running an auto 
company, he sure seems all fired up to run an insurance company.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	What was that movie? Gattica? It focused on the DNA thing mostly, but  
the people's complacency was also shown. Just do what you're told.
	I find it funny that when "liberals" want change its called socialism  
or  pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for  
change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up).
	I don't think either are to far apart on what we all want, but we're  
to damn stubborn to say, "hey, I agree with that."



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure
you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments.  
It's

their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than
ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban
government, thanks to US intervention and unnecessary embargos, is
oppressive, and the people are suffering from that. Government
oppression has not affected the affordability and quality of  
outcomes in
Cuba, which are more favorable than in the US, with insurance and  
care

universally available, unlike here.


I was wondering when you would get around to apologizing for tyrants.

The Cuban govt is oppressive because it chooses to be and can be.   
The embargo is stupid and should have been lifted long ago, but  
many, many other countries have managed to oppress their people  
without any US embargo.


I thought of you and your talking points post when I read Camille  
Paglia's latest column.


"…affluent middle-class Democrats now seem to be complacently  
servile toward authority and automatically believe everything party  
leaders tell them. Why? Is it because the new professional class is  
a glossy product of generically institutionalized learning?  
Independent thought and logical analysis of argument are no longer  
taught. Elite education in the U.S. has become a frenetic assembly  
line of competitive college application to schools where ideological  
brainwashing is so pandemic that it’s invisible. The top schools,  
from the Ivy League on down, promote “critical thinking,” which  
sounds good but is in fact just a style of rote regurgitation of  
hackneyed approved terms (”racism, sexism, homophobia”) when  
confronted with any social issue. The Democratic brain has been  
marinating so long in those cliches that it’s positively pickled…


By a proportion of something like 10-to-1, negative articles by  
conservatives were vastly more detailed, specific and practical  
about the proposals than were supportive articles by Democrats,  
which often made gestures rather than arguments and brimmed with  
emotion and sneers. There was a glaring inability in most Democratic  
commentary to think ahead and forecast what would or could be the  
actual snarled consequences-- in terms of delays, denial of  
services, errors, miscommunications and gross invasions of privacy  
-- of a massive single-payer overhaul of the healthcare system in a  
nation as large and populous as ours. It was as if Democrats live in  
a utopian dream world, divorced from the daily demands and realities  
of organization and management. "


Read more.  http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/09/09/healthcare/


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   Hmmm, coach healthcare and then first class healthcare if I'm
willing
> to pay for it. What a concept.

Sounds like you're describing the UK's DHS or Canada's Medicare to a T.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	I agree with the idea that if you love it so much why don't you move  
there is a BS argument. How about, if it works, lets bring it here? We  
import just about everything else, why not healthcare ideas? Oh, no  
money in it. Can we export our insurance companies to China with the  
proviso they stay there and not do business here? I was all for  
exporting wacko neocons to Alaska and let them drill to their hearts  
content if they weren't allowed back in the lower 48. They could drill  
and sit on their porches with binoculars and keep on eye on them pesky  
Russians.



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


Sounds like paradise.  Why aren't you living there?


 I was just waiting for the old "love it or leave it" bullshit to
start.  Why can't an intelligent and respectful conversation take
place without descending into the pit of old worn out saws such as
that?


Really?  You saw love or leave it in there?  I asked you a simple  
question,
to which you read a great deal into that wasn't there.  If it's that  
great,

why aren't you living there?  Could there be other reasons you aren't?


 Why don't you go on the internet, or seek the information anywhere
you choose to, to discover how abysmal the overall health care in the
United States really is, especially when viewed in light of our
extreme financial wealth?


I have, many times.  Yes, we spend more on health care.  We also  
spend more
on many other things as well things, compared to countries such as  
France

and Germany.


 Does our government lie and distort the truth?  Does our current
administration lie and distort the truth?  Did our most recent
previous administration lie and distort the truth, or is such the  
sole
provence of Cuba or any other nation that is not our own?  Please  
stop

this silliness.


Where did I suggest that our own govt doesn’t lie?  Everyone is  
doing so

that makes it OK?

I'm being silly?  Please.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel
> industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but
> it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago

I fly a couple of times a year.  It's OK.

What I do know is that it's no longer only a tool for the businessman or the
wealthy as it was pre-deregulation.  Everyone can afford to fly now, which
in my book, is a great thing.

It's not the state-protected status quo, which again, that's a good thing.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	I'm amazed that those against health care options don't see the  
insurance companies as death panels. Because Sarah says it they're  
quick to jump on the idea when it comes to a federal health option,  
but seeing their own insurance companies as doing the same? Hand over  
the head motion here.



Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:02 PM, t.piwowar wrote:


On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping  
their health care,  and then you, the employee, will have only one  
choice, the public option. That is what is happening in  
Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the penalty for not  
providing health insurance.


Here in DC there are mandates on insurance companies that require  
provision of reasonable insurance at reasonable rates to DC  
citizens. As a DC-based employer I cannot get coverage that is as  
good and as affordable for my employees. Unfortunately, all my staff  
does not live in DC. If they did, you bet I would stop providing  
coverage. Anyone who would call that "dumping their health care"  
would be a jerk.


There is no honor in enriching insurance company managers who earn  
their $100,000,000 salaries by pronouncing death sentences on the  
sick, the poor, and the crippled. I guess they insist on being  
rewarded in this world to compensate for the torment they will  
surely suffer in the next.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

>   She said "we", she didn't say you. We aren't including you. So don't
> bother voting next election. It won't be counted. You're not included.
> Oh, we'll still be taking SS out of your paycheck. Probably L&I as
> well, but you aren't part of our government. Wow, how freeing that
> must feel. A man of the world.

Oh!  To the heart!  You big meanie.

Yes, it was a very nice DNC talking points post.  Filled with null data and
misty eyed nostalgic naiveté.

"We" ain't been the guvmint for some time now, but please, don't let me
interrupt the fantasy that any of us still have a role to play other than
thrall. 

I knew I should have just started punching myself in the head, rather than
let myself get dragged into one of these pointless health care arguments.
It always degrades into partisan idiocy.  Life's too short...


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark  
started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of  
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.  
Whatever happened with that?


Healtheon merged with WebMD in 1999.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are
> not being nice.
> If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them
> you are not being nice.
> If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help
> them you are a criminal.
> 
> Tell us again that you don't see the difference.

The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point.

D-.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> You mean like when we got rid of the laws that required local banking?
> That worked very well. Didn't it?
> 
> If you look for banks that did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco
> you will find that these were banks run by local bankers who knew who
> and what was getting the loan. You will also find that such banks that
> are willing to work with their customers when times get tough and did
> not rush to foreclose.

Actually, you will find the banks that survived were the ones who were more
diversified in their holdings.  The one that went tits up were the old
investment houses that only recently started banking businesses.

> And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the
> states? You might find the answer above.

And why is Medicare an actuarial mess and lurching towards insolvency?  

I think you'll find your answer somewhere around reality.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another
> issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are
> polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our
> food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new
> strains of drug-resistant diseases. The corporate farmers are slowly
> killing us. Have a nice day!

S, Tom, the grownups are talking.  Yes, your non-sequitors are very
nice.  Uh-huh, I know, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking
about.  Run along now and go play.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure
> you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments. It's
> their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than
> ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban
> government, thanks to US intervention and unnecessary embargos, is
> oppressive, and the people are suffering from that. Government
> oppression has not affected the affordability and quality of outcomes in
> Cuba, which are more favorable than in the US, with insurance and care
> universally available, unlike here.

I was wondering when you would get around to apologizing for tyrants.

The Cuban govt is oppressive because it chooses to be and can be.  The embargo 
is stupid and should have been lifted long ago, but many, many other countries 
have managed to oppress their people without any US embargo.

I thought of you and your talking points post when I read Camille Paglia's 
latest column.

"…affluent middle-class Democrats now seem to be complacently servile toward 
authority and automatically believe everything party leaders tell them. Why? Is 
it because the new professional class is a glossy product of generically 
institutionalized learning? Independent thought and logical analysis of 
argument are no longer taught. Elite education in the U.S. has become a 
frenetic assembly line of competitive college application to schools where 
ideological brainwashing is so pandemic that it’s invisible. The top schools, 
from the Ivy League on down, promote “critical thinking,” which sounds good but 
is in fact just a style of rote regurgitation of hackneyed approved terms 
(”racism, sexism, homophobia”) when confronted with any social issue. The 
Democratic brain has been marinating so long in those cliches that it’s 
positively pickled…

By a proportion of something like 10-to-1, negative articles by conservatives 
were vastly more detailed, specific and practical about the proposals than were 
supportive articles by Democrats, which often made gestures rather than 
arguments and brimmed with emotion and sneers. There was a glaring inability in 
most Democratic commentary to think ahead and forecast what would or could be 
the actual snarled consequences-- in terms of delays, denial of services, 
errors, miscommunications and gross invasions of privacy -- of a massive 
single-payer overhaul of the healthcare system in a nation as large and 
populous as ours. It was as if Democrats live in a utopian dream world, 
divorced from the daily demands and realities of organization and management. "

Read more.  http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/09/09/healthcare/


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	I did find it interesting someone would equate violence with either  
being liberal or conservative. I personally know some pretty passive  
conservatives and also some pretty violent liberals. I don't think how  
you feel about Sarah Palin and her views makes you one or the other. I  
won't go any further then that on my views of the woman.



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On Sep 8, 2009, at 8:47 PM, t.piwowar wrote:


On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:
But liberals proclaim that you should never defend yourself against  
an attacker.  You should run away and call the police.  Why did  
this individual not follow the liberal doctrine?
When _you_ are being attacked, you all of a sudden become a  
conservative, don't you?


Make a note who's living in lala land. This is useful information.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Wright]

> > Sounds like paradise.  Why aren't you living there?
> 
>   I was just waiting for the old "love it or leave it" bullshit to
> start.  Why can't an intelligent and respectful conversation take
> place without descending into the pit of old worn out saws such as
> that?

Really?  You saw love or leave it in there?  I asked you a simple question,
to which you read a great deal into that wasn't there.  If it's that great,
why aren't you living there?  Could there be other reasons you aren't?

>   Why don't you go on the internet, or seek the information anywhere
> you choose to, to discover how abysmal the overall health care in the
> United States really is, especially when viewed in light of our
> extreme financial wealth?

I have, many times.  Yes, we spend more on health care.  We also spend more
on many other things as well things, compared to countries such as France
and Germany.

>   Does our government lie and distort the truth?  Does our current
> administration lie and distort the truth?  Did our most recent
> previous administration lie and distort the truth, or is such the sole
> provence of Cuba or any other nation that is not our own?  Please stop
> this silliness.

Where did I suggest that our own govt doesn’t lie?  Everyone is doing so
that makes it OK? 

I'm being silly?  Please.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark  
started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of  
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.  
Whatever happened with that?



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 8:37 PM, t.piwowar wrote:


On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:34 PM, mike wrote:
The UK and Canada are moving away from socialized medicine, not  
towards it.


While this is definitely off topic, it is still very useful in the  
general context of the List's discussions about computers and  
technology. It gets us away from tainted topics like Macs vs PCs and  
lets us see how other people reason. This will be good to remember  
when we do get back to the main topic of the List. Some people just  
do not have a tight grasp on reality.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping  
their health care,  and then you, the employee, will have only one  
choice, the public option. That is what is happening in  
Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the penalty for not  
providing health insurance.


Here in DC there are mandates on insurance companies that require  
provision of reasonable insurance at reasonable rates to DC citizens.  
As a DC-based employer I cannot get coverage that is as good and as  
affordable for my employees. Unfortunately, all my staff does not live  
in DC. If they did, you bet I would stop providing coverage. Anyone  
who would call that "dumping their health care" would be a jerk.


There is no honor in enriching insurance company managers who earn  
their $100,000,000 salaries by pronouncing death sentences on the  
sick, the poor, and the crippled. I guess they insist on being  
rewarded in this world to compensate for the torment they will surely  
suffer in the next.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 7, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Jordan wrote:

http://brightcove.newscientist.com/services/player/bcpid2227271001?bctid=30583310001


Thank you. Very well thought out and rational.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:
But liberals proclaim that you should never defend yourself against  
an attacker.  You should run away and call the police.  Why did this  
individual not follow the liberal doctrine?
When _you_ are being attacked, you all of a sudden become a  
conservative, don't you?


Make a note who's living in lala land. This is useful information.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 6, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
That food, which uses a mixed but largely free market system, is so  
cheap

and plentiful that even the poor can easily afford it, is lost on the
socialized medicine proponents.


Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another  
issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are  
polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our  
food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new  
strains of drug-resistant diseases. The corporate farmers are slowly  
killing us. Have a nice day!



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:34 PM, mike wrote:
The UK and Canada are moving away from socialized medicine, not  
towards it.


While this is definitely off topic, it is still very useful in the  
general context of the List's discussions about computers and  
technology. It gets us away from tainted topics like Macs vs PCs and  
lets us see how other people reason. This will be good to remember  
when we do get back to the main topic of the List. Some people just do  
not have a tight grasp on reality.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:33 PM, mike wrote:
You don't seem to have a full grasp on capitalism.  If your letters  
didn't
arrive you'd switch carriers and get them to arrive.  It's called  
Fedex and

UPS and DHL etc.  Would one pizza shop across the nation be good?


There was a time when you had to subscribe to a fire company to  
protect your house. Members of other fire companies would stand around  
and watch your house burn. I see you long for the good old days.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 6, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
We are being told that health care is a "right."  I disagree.   
Health care
is paramount, no doubt, but it is no more a right than food or a  
place to

live.


If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are  
not being nice.
If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them  
you are not being nice.
If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help  
them you are a criminal.


Tell us again that you don't see the difference.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Marcio]

Jeff you got me interested. Don´t be impressed by statistics and be careful 
with the information you get from the Internet. Talk with your doctor. 
Cardiology is a branch of medicine that is growing a lot and you will never 
know what is coming next. My advice: if you are feeling good live life to the 
fullest, enjoy each minute of it, and let diseases become bigger than they 
deserve.

Insofar as health care. I guess you fell into the Medicaid support network? I 
am not sure in which State you live but people who who receive Medicaid, as a 
rule have pretty good services. Of course, as you know, it is a socialized 
program, the tax payers (Federal and State) share the costs.

The problem are the people who can´t receive Medicaid because they are not 
considered poor (there is a scale to determine who is elegible). People who 
earn more that the minimum required, are not above 65 years old (another 
socialized program) and have no insurance public or private. They are a large 
number. They are people who lost their jobs, people who developped a disease 
and are no longer accepted in new insurance, people who are afraid of changind 
jobs for fear of losing their insurance. They are many!

When I discuss in favor of the Singloe Payer I am saying that everyone should 
take the risks and have access. If you lump Medicaid, Medicare, VA, ald all 
other health care programs in one... the burden in the citizen will be minimal 
and everyone will have access.

Hope you understand.

Live life to the fullest. It goes lasts such a short time...

Marcio 

-Original Message-
>From: Jeff Miles 
>Sent: Sep 8, 2009 8:59 AM
>To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
>
>? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I've been doing all  
>along. Though many of those views are well received.
>
>   I need to explain a few things here. I suffer from congestive heart  
>failure. From what I could find my survival rate was 13% after being  
>diagnosed for the first 5 years. I'm on year 6.5 and feeling ok.
>   I had no insurance when I initially went to the clinic and then the  
>doctor. I spent about 5 minutes filling out paperwork. That was the  
>first time. In the hospital I spent no time filling out anything.  
>Everything got filled out for me. By who I don't know. But now I get  
>all my meds for free. I also get food stamps at $200/mo  which I  
>rarely use. I never asked for them. But what the hell. I even got a  
>letter from the state questioning why I wasn't using them. And to  
>further explain the story, I started getting $97/mo and then got a  
>letter saying I needed $174/mo. If I had problems with this I could  
>ask for a review and debate the the decision. A couple of months later  
>they uped it to $200/mo, It came with the same proviso that I could  
>challenge this if I thought it wasn't enough.
>   Like I said earlier, I eat steak twice a week. I try and find new  
>recipes for the chicken, fish and pork the rest of the week.
>   I think us wants me to be obese. I could live on Top Raman and a ham  
>sandwich or two for most any week.
>   I should look more closely at the king crab legs.
>
>
>Jeff Miles
>jmile...@charter.net
>
>Join my Mafia
>http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726
>
>On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote:
>
>> Share you views and perceptions Jeff.
>>
>> Marcio
>>
>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Jeff Miles 
>>> Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM
>>> To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
>>>
>>> Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and
>>> yells at the kids for being on his lawn.
>>> I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing the mail carriers  
>>> aren't
>>> allowed to actually put something in your home. So using the mail  
>>> slot
>>> probably isn't a legal option for them. I do know for sure that only
>>> the USPS is allowed to use your mail box. This is why you get things
>>> from pizza companies and others hanging on your door knob.
>>> As for the signing for things. Would you be complaining if they left
>>> something important that was then stolen by some sleaze bag? You
>>> always have the option of not picking up the package or letter that
>>> need a signature.
>>> And when it comes to the postal employee pay, I don't think they get
>>> paid enough. The employees at all the postal stations in my area are
>>> some of the friendliest people I've met. I know I couldn't do their
>>> job and remain that frie

Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Not only do you have to pay but their scales in many cases are not 
regulated.  (Paid a $50 penalty on a flight recently for an 
overweight bag.  One between the two of us. )


Read a story about an airport where they went through and calibrated 
the scales.  Many were off by a few pounds.


Stewart


At 03:17 AM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel
industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but
it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago. A couple of weeks
ago Alaska airlines started charging for even my first checked bag.
And they don't bother telling you this till you're at the counter. So
go to the airport with cash in your pocket.
The seating space on planes has decreased. No movies unless you pay
for the headsets. And you get meals on a long flight if you pay for
them. But all of this of course is if you are flying coach. First
class is a different story, and the only thing I'd fly nowadays on a
flight longer then 4 hours. But then again, you have to pay for it.
Hmmm, coach healthcare and then first class healthcare if 
I'm willing

to pay for it. What a concept.


Jeff Miles


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[t.piwowar]

On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:54 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
Rev, now you miss his point.  If you allow companies to compete over  
state
lines, removing their captive audience, you won't *need* mandates.   
That's

what competition is best at providing: choice.


You mean like when we got rid of the laws that required local banking?  
That worked very well. Didn't it?


If you look for banks that did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco  
you will find that these were banks run by local bankers who knew who  
and what was getting the loan. You will also find that such banks that  
are willing to work with their customers when times get tough and did  
not rush to foreclose.


And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the  
states? You might find the answer above.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Move down here and we can remedy that situation for you.

Not all states are as generous and $200 a month for groceries are a minmum.

Stewart


At 06:59 AM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I've been doing all
along. Though many of those views are well received.

I need to explain a few things here. I suffer from congestive heart
failure. From what I could find my survival rate was 13% after being
diagnosed for the first 5 years. I'm on year 6.5 and feeling ok.
I had no insurance when I initially went to the clinic and then the
doctor. I spent about 5 minutes filling out paperwork. That was the
first time. In the hospital I spent no time filling out anything.
Everything got filled out for me. By who I don't know. But now I get
all my meds for free. I also get food stamps at $200/mo  which I
rarely use. I never asked for them. But what the hell. I even got a
letter from the state questioning why I wasn't using them. And to
further explain the story, I started getting $97/mo and then got a
letter saying I needed $174/mo. If I had problems with this I could
ask for a review and debate the the decision. A couple of months later
they uped it to $200/mo, It came with the same proviso that I could
challenge this if I thought it wasn't enough.
Like I said earlier, I eat steak twice a week. I try and find new
recipes for the chicken, fish and pork the rest of the week.
I think us wants me to be obese. I could live on Top Raman 
and a ham

sandwich or two for most any week.
I should look more closely at the king crab legs.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726

On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote:


Share you views and perceptions Jeff.

Marcio

-Original Message-

From: Jeff Miles 
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and
yells at the kids for being on his lawn.
I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing the mail carriers
aren't
allowed to actually put something in your home. So using the mail
slot
probably isn't a legal option for them. I do know for sure that only
the USPS is allowed to use your mail box. This is why you get things
from pizza companies and others hanging on your door knob.
As for the signing for things. Would you be complaining 
if they left

something important that was then stolen by some sleaze bag? You
always have the option of not picking up the package or letter that
need a signature.
And when it comes to the postal employee pay, I don't 
think they get

paid enough. The employees at all the postal stations in my area are
some of the friendliest people I've met. I know I couldn't do their
job and remain that friendly.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726

On Sep 6, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Fred Holmes wrote:


Regularly, I get other people's mail delivered to my home.  On some
occasions, it has been outgoing mail that the mail carrier has
picked up at someone else's home.  The mail may arrive at any time
from 10:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., which says that they don't have a
standard, routine manner in which the deliver the mail.  I took down
the "mailbox" on the front of my house and installed a "mail slot"
in my front door, but the letter carriers often won't use it.  The
just leave the mail inside the storm door, which then stays
partially propped open and thereby doesn't perform its intended
purpose.  When I'm not home to sign for a receipted item of mail,
there is no clue on the "postcard" announcement that is left at my
home as to who the sender is or what sort of article it is, so there
is no way to prioritize my visit to the Post Office.  And with post
office hours now reduced to 9:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., working folks
have to take additional time off from work to stop at the post o!
ffice to pick up receipted mail.  But the letter carriers have an
extremely good pay and benefits package.

Fred Holmes


At 03:04 AM 9/6/2009, Jeff Miles wrote:

 True, the post office certainly has on many occasions.
 Does anyone really stop and think what the post office does
on a
daily basis? I have yet to find a privet company that has worked as
efficiently and consistently. And, being governmentally run, the
post
office's goal isn't to make a profit. No government program is
run to
make a profit. People bitch when the programs loose money, and
they'd
bitch about prices and taxes if the programs were making money.
It's a
no win situation.
 I have yet, in my 47 years, realized something getting lossed
by the
USPS. On occasion it's taken a day or more 

Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I've been doing all  
along. Though many of those views are well received.


	I need to explain a few things here. I suffer from congestive heart  
failure. From what I could find my survival rate was 13% after being  
diagnosed for the first 5 years. I'm on year 6.5 and feeling ok.
	I had no insurance when I initially went to the clinic and then the  
doctor. I spent about 5 minutes filling out paperwork. That was the  
first time. In the hospital I spent no time filling out anything.  
Everything got filled out for me. By who I don't know. But now I get  
all my meds for free. I also get food stamps at $200/mo  which I  
rarely use. I never asked for them. But what the hell. I even got a  
letter from the state questioning why I wasn't using them. And to  
further explain the story, I started getting $97/mo and then got a  
letter saying I needed $174/mo. If I had problems with this I could  
ask for a review and debate the the decision. A couple of months later  
they uped it to $200/mo, It came with the same proviso that I could  
challenge this if I thought it wasn't enough.
	Like I said earlier, I eat steak twice a week. I try and find new  
recipes for the chicken, fish and pork the rest of the week.
	I think us wants me to be obese. I could live on Top Raman and a ham  
sandwich or two for most any week.

I should look more closely at the king crab legs.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726

On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote:


Share you views and perceptions Jeff.

Marcio

-Original Message-

From: Jeff Miles 
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and
yells at the kids for being on his lawn.
	I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing the mail carriers  
aren't
allowed to actually put something in your home. So using the mail  
slot

probably isn't a legal option for them. I do know for sure that only
the USPS is allowed to use your mail box. This is why you get things
from pizza companies and others hanging on your door knob.
As for the signing for things. Would you be complaining if they left
something important that was then stolen by some sleaze bag? You
always have the option of not picking up the package or letter that
need a signature.
And when it comes to the postal employee pay, I don't think they get
paid enough. The employees at all the postal stations in my area are
some of the friendliest people I've met. I know I couldn't do their
job and remain that friendly.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726

On Sep 6, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Fred Holmes wrote:


Regularly, I get other people's mail delivered to my home.  On some
occasions, it has been outgoing mail that the mail carrier has
picked up at someone else's home.  The mail may arrive at any time
from 10:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., which says that they don't have a
standard, routine manner in which the deliver the mail.  I took down
the "mailbox" on the front of my house and installed a "mail slot"
in my front door, but the letter carriers often won't use it.  The
just leave the mail inside the storm door, which then stays
partially propped open and thereby doesn't perform its intended
purpose.  When I'm not home to sign for a receipted item of mail,
there is no clue on the "postcard" announcement that is left at my
home as to who the sender is or what sort of article it is, so there
is no way to prioritize my visit to the Post Office.  And with post
office hours now reduced to 9:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., working folks
have to take additional time off from work to stop at the post o!
ffice to pick up receipted mail.  But the letter carriers have an
extremely good pay and benefits package.

Fred Holmes


At 03:04 AM 9/6/2009, Jeff Miles wrote:

 True, the post office certainly has on many occasions.
 Does anyone really stop and think what the post office does
on a
daily basis? I have yet to find a privet company that has worked as
efficiently and consistently. And, being governmentally run, the  
post
office's goal isn't to make a profit. No government program is  
run to
make a profit. People bitch when the programs loose money, and  
they'd

bitch about prices and taxes if the programs were making money.
It's a
no win situation.
 I have yet, in my 47 years, realized something getting lossed
by the
USPS. On occasion it's taken a day or more to get here or there.  
But

at the cost, I really can't complain. And with the millions of
letters
and packages they deal with each day, Fed-Ex and UPS seem to be  
doi

Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit

[Jeff Miles]

	Where do you come up with these figures? Have they been fed to you or  
are they just off the top of your head?
	You did get to the meat of the problem however. We might have great  
medical care here in us. But getting it and being able to have access  
to it is a totally different story. And that is what we're talking  
about.
	As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all  
for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything.  
Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have to  
buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You don't have to have  
whatever insurance. You want to live a few years more? You don't have  
to buy health insurance. But the option could be there if you do.
	I agree that the problem lays in prices charged. But I also believe  
it's our insurance industry that's created this problem, not the lack  
of free market.

How much did you pay to your don last month?


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:

For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the  
United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard.


Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba to  
have open heart surgery instead of having it done by a specialist  
here?


You answered no...I'm certain...which means then, that health care  
is NOT better in Cuba.


You are free to move to Cuba, collect your $3 a month wage and enjoy  
that health care.


Do not confuse health care costs with health care.  There is a world  
of difference between the two.  Socializing our health care system  
will not only hurt our economy...but it will ruin medicine in the  
United States.


You can do some things to fix the cost...without changing the entire  
system.


85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care.  So  
you want to wreck what the 85% enjoy so that the 15% get free health  
care coverage?  That's like having 85% of a restaraunt's clientele  
perfectly happy with the food at a given restaurant...but in order  
to please the other 15%, we bulldoze the building.  Makes just as  
much sense as bulldozing the current system to satisfy the few, and  
to satisfy the socialists (Obama, Reid, Pelosi) who want more and  
more government control over every facet of our lives.


Expand medicare to cover those who legitimately cannot afford health  
care.  I'm not talking about those who whine that they can't afford  
insurance but have two cars, a house they can't afford, cell phones,  
top tier cable tv and other luxuries.


How about if we actually let the free market work for insurance like  
it does almost every other industry.  There are only so many  
companies I am allowed to buy insurance from.  Those are federal  
regulations and state regulations, and it benefits the insurance  
company ensuring them of a monopoly of sorts.  Let me buy my health  
insurance anywhere I want - provided they meet federal regulations.   
That will increase choice of product dramatically, which will  
increase competition, which will drive down prices and improve  
service.  The free markets have NOT been tried with insurance.


Loser pays as part of Tort reform.  If you file a bogus lawsuit and  
lose, you pay the cost of the legal fees for the doctor or  
pharmacuetical company you just sued.  That would just about put an  
end to the frivelous and phony lawsuits.  Doctors and drug companies  
and anybody else who can be sued pay huge, huge fees for  
insurance...which of course if passed along to the consumer.  Won't  
happen though.  Why?  The majority of congress are lawyers.


No...there are plenty of things that can be done besides turning us  
into a socialist country.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Just a thought, but if we stopped calling it "the US" and just called  
it "us" maybe people would remember. Then maybe healthcare for "us"  
might sound more attractive.



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Chris Dunford wrote:


Did you notice any Country in this world copying the USA system?...

Marcio


Oh, that's not going to work, Marcio. Any suggestion, any hint, that  
the US might not be the best in the world at ANYTHING gets the right  
wing's nose out of joint. Try that on Fox Nation and all you'll get  
is a chorus of "YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE? LEAVE!" They are not  
fond of any kind of criticism of the US.



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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	Good. Why are there some, with no interest, so interested in  
protecting these crooks? If you don't work for, own interest in or own  
the company out right, what do you care if a crooked insurance company  
goes out of business?
	I'm playing Mafia Wars, but it's just a game. These insurance  
companies play it for real.



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping  
their health care,  and then you, the employee, will have only one  
choice, the public option. That is what is happening in  
Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the penalty for not  
providing health insurance.


And, as I pointed out earlier, the more folks are government  
insured, the surge in baby boom Medicare, as well as a large public  
option, the less provider reimbursement will come from private  
insurers which compensate for the losses from government  
reimbursement.


And, of course, private insurers can't compete with a government run  
public plan. A private business cannot operate at a loss, the way a  
government subsidized entity can (like the USPS and Amtrak).

Marcio wrote:
Whjy are you afraid of a choice between the private insurers and a  
government program? I said: choice.


Marcio

-Original Message-


From: Jeff Wright 
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 3:49 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...


This is one subspecialty that is also elective surgery.  Now say  
the

same thing about cardiac stints, hernia surgery etc.

Yes, I understand that.  It's one of the better analogs for  
demonstrating
that the medical industry can deliver quality care with cost  
awareness.  Why

wouldn't it work for cardiac stents, hernias, tonsils, etc?
It wouldn't work very well for time-sensitive/emergency care or  
for critical
care situations such as cancer treatment, but there is a world of  
medicine

where price can and should matter.

We can reform health care the smart way, as proposed by Mackey and
illustrated in the article you linked with truly innovative ideas,  
or the
dumb way, with price controls, massive budget deficits and a very  
high

probability of rationing with nowhere else to turn.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	This is the standard response when someone doesn't have a decent  
argument. "If you like it so much, why don't you move there?" This is  
a crap argument.
	If the French found out how to create nuclear fusion, should we all  
move there, or should we import the idea?



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Sep 7, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Marcio wrote:

This is interesting. I am not pro-Cuba and I dislike Fidel as a  
ditactoir. I agree that Cuba is doing very poorly, partially because  
of the US embargo. But I beleive that socialism as in Cuba will  
never work. As I said before I believe in a combination of  
capitalism with socialized programs. But I will have to agree that  
Cuba has a better health care and school system that Brazil and the  
USA. No doubt. Health care and schools must be socialized in order  
to work.


Marcio

-Original Message-

From: Jeff Wright 
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 3:50 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...


 For what it is worth, Cuba has one of the best, if not the overall
best health care system in the world.  Check out the world's health
statistics and see for yourself.  Marcio can speak to this issue I  
am

sure.

 Cuba is one poor as hell nation, and the Cuban health care system  
is

government run, yet is at the top of the "A" list worldwide.
Socialist?  Yes.  Works extremely well overall?  Yes.  Far lower  
child
death rate than here in the United States?  By far.  All citizens  
get

health care?  Absolutely.


Sounds like paradise.  Why aren't you living there?  I'm sure the  
Cuban

guvmint has no reason to lie to or distort the truth.


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Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...

[Jeff Miles]

	The title says what? 89 people were polled and those who were  
interested in whoever was doing the polling were against healthcare?



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Sep 7, 2009, at 1:38 PM, mike wrote:


Dueling links?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

The title says it.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Jordan  wrote:

I hate to throw cold water on all this fun, but wasting time  
talking about
all this fear and straw men is just what the right wing wants you  
to do.
That little video posted a while back is enough for any rational  
person to

get the picture.

http://brightcove.newscientist.com/services/player/bcpid2227271001?bctid=30583310001
The public is overwhelmingly for single payer.
If congress does anything but work toward putting together a strong  
single

payer plan then they've let the wingers win.
It's fear vs. facts.



phartz...@gmail.com wrote:


On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:



If you drive the drug companies out of business, then the  
government will
have to manufacture current drugs and develop new ones.  Will  
they do a

better job of it?  Unlikely!




For what it is worth, Cuba has one of the best, if not the overall
best health care system in the world.  Check out the world's health
statistics and see for yourself.  Marcio can speak to this issue I  
am

sure.

Cuba is one poor as hell nation, and the Cuban health care system is
government run, yet is at the top of the "A" list worldwide.
Socialist?  Yes.  Works extremely well overall?  Yes.  Far lower  
child
death rate than here in the United States?  By far.  All citizens  
get

health care?  Absolutely.





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