Re: [CTRL] Outline of new Republican National Health Plan.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev wrote:
PRAY - YOU - DON'T - GET - SICK.


MJ:

While I certainly do NOT believe the Rs will give up their
statist ideas ... WHY exactly should the Federal Government
(quite contrary to its mandate) FORCE some individuals to
pay for 'health care' (whatever that might mean) for others?


Regard$,
--MJ

What's *just* has been debated for centuries but let me offer
you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you
keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much
of what I earn *belongs* to you -- and why?   --Walter Williams

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust

[Laura Shipton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Damian B. Cooper wrote:

I have some heavy homework assignments, so I may be slow replying
Yet who or what do you think was responsable for the Holocaust?
I am beginning to have a better idea of what propoganda they were
fed while behind the iron wall.
Laura
aka The Pied Piper
--

my ICQ# 14484977
Education: A House of Mirrors http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm
Legislation and what we are allowing by Letting our
children be labeled as only ADD or ADHD
http://www.cec.sped.org/faq/gt-ld.htm (New 16 Oct 98)

3) Uncover Myths in Education
Myth 1 That Home Schoolers Need to be under the
Umbrella of a Church or Religious Group.
http://www.home-ed-press.com/INF/FREE/hsinfo_far1.html
**
1. Take the 60-day No Aspartame Test and send us your case history.
Mission Possible International
5950-H State Bridge Rd. #215
Duluth, GA 30097 USA
2. Tell your doctor and all of your friends!
3. Return Asparcidal food to the store.
(anything with Monsanto's NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful/Benevia/NatraTaste)
VISIT http://www.dorway.com/possible.html Get links to over 30 sites
VISIT http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/   ..FAQs  Cases
VISIT http://www.notmilk.com Exposing Bovine Growth Hormone
Disability and Death are not acceptable costs of business!

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] [1] Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French Freemasonry

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French
Freemasonry
John Daniel (C)1994
John Kregel, Inc.
 P. O.  box 131480
Tyler, Texas 75713
ISBN 0-9635079-0-7
-
can be purchased from:
Global insights
675 Fairview Dr. #246
Carson City, NV 89701
702-885-0700
800-729-4131(orders only)
-
The author most definitly has his worldview, but it does present some
interesting material.  Where are the Jesuits and others, while all this is
going on? The Author also gives the devil more credit than he is due,IMHO and
some of the connections are ...; but all in all it is interesting.

As, always, Caveat leactor

Om
K
-

The blueprint to destroy the Church through this means was drawn up over two
hundred years ago by Adam Weishaupt, who has been called 'The Human Devil."
Whether Weishaupt received it from Voltaire or Frederick the Great is not
known. Nesta Webster suggests some connection when she notes that "The
resemblances between Weishaupt's correspondence and that of Voltaire and of
Frederick the Great are certainly very striking."(87)
You recall that from 1750-1755 Voltaire was a guest at Frederick's court.(88)
Monsignor Dillon wrote of that visit:

[Voltaire] sketched out for them the whole mode of procedure against the
Church. His policy as revealed by the correspondence of Frederick II, and
others with him, was not to commence an immediate persecution, but first to
suppress the Jesuits and all Religious orders, and to secularize their goods;
then to deprive the Pope of temporal authority, and the Church of property and
state recognition. Primary and higher-class education of a lay and Infidel
[sicl character was to be established, body of the Church should be
sufficiently weakened and Infidelity [sic] strong enough, the final blow was
to be dealt by the sword of open,  relentless persecution. A reign of terror
was to spread over the whole earth, and to continue while a Christian should
be found obstinate enough to adhere to Christianity. This, of course, was to
be followed by a Universal Brotherhood without marriage, family property God,
or law(89)

Weishaupt took up the cause of Voltaire, providing the vehicle by which the
plan would be carried to future generations. When Weishaupt penetrated
Freemasonry with illuminism, the Lodge took up the cause, citing Voltaire as a
patron. Miller explains in Occult Theocracy that after the 1789-1793
destruction of old France, and subsequent to the reign- of Napoleon, Grand
Orient Freemasonry's aim was the same as Voltaire's. From the minutes of the
Italian Masonic Lodge, Permanent Instructions, or Practical Code of Rules;
Guide for the Heads of the Highest Grades of Masonry, Miller quotes: "'Our
final aim is that of Voltaire and of the French Revolution, -- the complete
annihilation of Catholicism, and ultimately of Christianity Under this
cloak [of Freemasonry, we may conspire at our convenience, and arrive, little
by little, at our ultimate aim."(90)
The Masonic Lodge ever since has been bent on the destruction of our families,
our churches, our nation, our world, and our God. Freemasonry's ultimate aim
is a one-world humanistic government without Christ and His Church. Obviously,
the Masonic Lodge is still carrying out Voltaire's plan.
Freemason Voltaire, born flfty-four years before Weishaupt, had laid the
groundwork for insurrection. Weishaupt advanced it. Perceiving an eminent
revolution in France, which had long been agitating French Masons, Weishaupt
saw and took his chance to impose the doctrines of the Illuminati on the
existing French Grand Lodge. This gave him a platform from which to operate.
Realizing the Grand Lodge had to be separated from English Masonic obedience
before it would initiate and fully support a revolution against the monarchy,
Weishaupt used the illuminated Grand Orient Masons to subvert the Grand
Lodge.(91)

Author and 18th century English Freemason John Robison in Proofs of a
Conspiracy (1798) quotes a letter from Weishaupt to his Illuminatus brother
Cato, wherein he states his use of Masonry to another end: "'The great
strength of our Order lies in its concealment; let it never appear in any
place in its own name, but always covered by another name, and another
occupation. None is fitter than the three lower degrees of Free Masonry; the
public is accustomed to it, expects little from it, and therefore takes little
notice of it."'(92)

Having achieved this goal, Weishaupt's next step was twofold: 1)through
revolution win freedom for the subjects of what he regarded as despotic kings
and Church; and 2) after revolution inaugurate an ostensibly atheistic
government under the guise of democracy. Commander Guy Carr in The Conspiracy
writes that 'Weishaupt never intended that any except specially selected
Masons, from the Higher Degrees, should learn The Full Secret' of Lucifer.
Only those known to have defected completely from Almighty God were initiated
into the Higher 

[CTRL] [2] Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French Freemasonry

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French
Freemasonry
John Daniel (C)1994
John Kregel, Inc.
 P. O.  box 131480
Tyler, Texas 75713
ISBN 0-9635079-0-7
800-729-4131
-
The author most definitly has his worldview, but it does present some
interesting material.  Where are the Jesuits and others, while all this is
going on? The Author also gives the devil more credit than he is due,IMHO and
some of the connections are ...; but all in all it is interesting.

As, always Caveat leactor

Om
K
-

Chapter 11

FIRST WAR BETWEEN ENGLISH
AND FRENCH FREEMASONRY

Many minor German Princes continued to be Freemasons. The Duke of Brunswick
was the central figure in the first Masonic conspiracy The Court of Vienna
was more or less Masonic since the reign of the wretched Joseph II. Alexander
of Russia was educated by La Harpe, a [Grand Orient] Freemason(1)

The Elector of Hesse, Prince William of Hanau, held broad views in religious
matters, associated much with Freemasons and practiced complete religious
tolerance.(2)

Royalty in Europe had long been involved in Freemasonry before Weishaupt came
on the scene -- not that they were revolutionary, although some of course were
-- but because they were curious. Freemasonry was considered the custodian of
science, something into which an intelligent man should look. It was also
anti-Catholic, which suited many of the German Protestant princes. Even
Catholic monarchs, nominal in their Christianity, disregarded the Vatican's
ban on membership and attached themselves to the Order. After the French
Revolution plunged Europe into political chaos, both Protestant and Catholic
monarchs changed their attitudes toward the Craft.

As we know, the original intent of the French Revolution was to dethrone the
Bourbon dynasty in favor of Sion's Lorraine-Habsburg "King of Jerusalem" cult.
Yet, when the Revolution began, the strongest players appeared to be the
Templars, who had outsmarted Sion's Illuminati with exposure. Strong evidence
of Templar involvement is seen in the appearance of the Jacobin Clubs when the
doors of the Illuminati's Grand Orient lodges closed. It is true that most
conspiracy researchers view this as nothing more than the Illuminati changing
their name. The Jacobin Clubs were illuminated, and, as we have noted before,
the name Jacobin recalls Jacques de Molay, strongly suggesting Templar
influence, if not control.

At the time of the French Revolution, there were actually three major
conspiracies working -- all under the Masonic banner. They allegedly united in
1782 at Wilhelmsbad to cooperate in revolution. All three were illuminated at
that conference. As subsequent events reveal, however, each had secretly
planned its own outcome via the Revolution. For example, the French Grand
Lodge, an English Masonic front, was Royalist, wanting a constitutional
monarchy. The French Grand Orient, an Illuminati front of the Priory of Sion,
fought to replace the Bourbon dynasty with another. The Scottish Rite, a
Templar front, planned to avenge a four-centuries-old murder, destroying the
monarchy and replacing it with a republic. Thus divided, the revolution was
doomed to failure.

Freemasonry's desire to alter the despotic politics of Europe might have been
an admirable undertaking, but the outcome could not have been foreseen, nor
given the anti-social passions that had been aroused, restraint possible. The
French Revolution ended in the Terror. According to Mackey's Encyclopedia of
Freemasonry, not until December 27, 1801 did two of the warring factions of
Masonry, the Templar Scottish Rite and the Grand Orient bodies, merged.(3)
Soon afterwards, the third Masonic party, the Grand Lodge, came into line and
all three upheld Napoleon.

De Poncins, in The Secret Powers Behind Revolution, explains that

By wishing to go too fast, freemasonry [sic] miscarried. The excesses of the
Terror brought about a violent reaction of the country. Being unable to do
better, freemasonry [sic] resumed its philanthropic guise and respectful
attitude to social order. It upheld Napoleon, who, moreover, served it by
spreading the revolutionary spirit all over Europe In a word he was for
Europe what the revolution had been for France.(4)


Napoleon Bonaparte and the Templars

Napoleon Bonaparte was not a self-made man. He was selected by Templar
Freemasonry to salvage the revolution -- to solidify the revolution in his
name, since rumors persisted that the exiled Bourbons would return. Msgr.
Dillon writes that "As a lesser evil, therefore, and as a means of forwarding
the unification of Europe, which they had planned by his conquests, the
Freemasons placed supreme power in the hands of Bonaparte, and urged him on in
his career"(5)

Although general history presents Napoleon as a fervent Catholic, Msgr. Dillon
contradicts that judgment:

[Napoleon's] letters breathe everywhere the spirit of advanced Freemasonry,

[CTRL] [3] Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French Freemasonry

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French
Freemasonry
John Daniel (C)1994
John Kregel, Inc.
 P. O.  box 131480
Tyler, Texas 75713
ISBN 0-9635079-0-7
-
can be purchased from:
Global insights
675 Fairview Dr. #246
Carson City, NV 89701
702-885-0700
800-729-4131(orders only)
-
The author most definitly has his worldview, but it does present some
interesting material.  Where are the Jesuits and others, while all this is
going on? The Author also gives the devil more credit than he is due,IMHO and
some of the connections are ...; but all in all it is interesting.

As, always Caveat leactor

Om
K
-
Chapter 12

FRENCH FREEMASONRY
TRIES, AND TRIES AGAIN

Freemasonry in its momentary command of power, failed
in its supreme endeavour. Taught by these experiences, its
progress has become slower and surer. (1)
Count Leon de Poncins

In 1796, the survivors of the House of Bourbon escaped to the island of Sicily
where they lived protected by the British Navy until after the Battle of
Waterloo.(2) When Napoleon was banished to the island of St. Helena, and
Europe reorganized under oligarchic rule, the Bourbons offered to return, but
the French Freemasons sought a king neither Bourbon nor Catholic. They
approached the Protestant and Masonic king of Holland to be king of France.
Dillon explains what followed this unsuccessful bid:

This failing, they contrived by Masonic arts to obtain the
first places in the Provisional Government which succeeded
Napoleon. They endeavoured to make the most of the
inevitable, and to rule the incoming [Bourbon King] Louis
XVIII, in the interests of their sect, and to the detriment of
the Church and of Christianity.(3)

In the first revolution French Freemasonry had shown open hostility to the
House of Bourbon. Bizarre as it may seem, when Louis XVIII ascended the
throne, he favored the Republican Templar Grand Orient. Stranger yet,
Talleyrand became minister. Moreover, other advanced Masons of the Napoleonic
empire, such as Emmanuel Sieyes, Regis de Cambaceres, and Joseph Fouche,
obtained positions as well. Louis's court was filled with Masonic Templars and
Sionists, who were once again plotting against the throne. Dillon outlines the
disastrous events that flowed from their schemes:

These men at once applied themselves to subvert the sentiment of reaction in
favour of the monarchy and of  religion. Soon, Louis XVIII gave the world the
sad spectacle of a man prepared at their bidding to cut his own throat. He
dissolved a Parliament of ultra loyalists because they were too loyal to him.
The Freemasons took care that his next Parliament should be full of its own
creatures. They also wrung from the King, under the plea of freedom of the
press, permission to deluge the country anew with the infidel and immoral
publications of Voltaire and his confederates, and with newspapers and
periodicals, which proved disastrous to his house, and to Christianity, in
France. These led before long to the attempt upon the life of the Duke of
Berry. to the revolution against Charles X, to the elevation of the son of the
Grand Master, the traitor Duke of Orleans, Philip the Egalite, as
Constitutional King, and to all the revolutionary results that have since
distracted and disgraced unfortunate France.(4)

The French Revolution of 1830

Unable to dethrone the Bourbons, the Priory of Sion settled for a
constitutional monarchy. This adjustment to political reality in fact was not
as strange a departure from the character of Sion as might first appear. The
authors of The Messianic Legacy explain Sion's reason for accepting a
constitutional monarchy:

The essence of such a monarchy is that it rests on the basis espoused by the
Prieure de Sion and ascribed to the old Merovingian dynasty of France. For the
Merovingians, the king ruled but did not govern. In other words, he was
ultimately a symbolic figure. To the extent that he remained unsoiled by the
tawdry business of politics and government, his symbolic status remained
pristine. As one of the Prieure de Sion's writers declares in an article, "The
king is." In other words, his currency resides in what he embodies as a
symbol, rather than in anything he does, or in any real power he might or
might not exercise. The most potent symbols always exert an intangible
authority, which can only be compromised by the more tangible forms of
power.(5)

The "more tangible forms of power" were of course the plotters in the French
parliament, comprised of representatives from both Sion and the Temple. The
constant assignment of the Grand Masters of Sion was to steer the ship of Sion
toward a course favorable to the interests of the "Lost King." This goal
proved more difficult in France than it had been in England. In England, Sion
had no adversary. In France, however, a constitutional monarchy was just as
easily subverted by the Templars. Such was the case when in the three-day
revolution of 1830 the 

[CTRL] [4] Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French Freemasonry

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Scarlet and the Beast - A History of the War Between English and French
Freemasonry
John Daniel (C)1994
John Kregel, Inc.
 P. O.  box 131480
Tyler, Texas 75713
ISBN 0-9635079-0-7
-
can be purchased from:
Global insights
675 Fairview Dr. #246
Carson City, NV 89701
702-885-0700
800-729-4131(orders only)
-
The author most definitly has his worldview, but it does present some
interesting material.  Where are the Jesuits and others, while all this is
going on? The author also gives the devil more credit than he is due,IMHO. And
some of the connections are ...; but all in all it is interesting.

As, always Caveat leactor

Om
K
-
Chapter 14

LUCIFIER: GOD OF FREEMASONRY

The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degree,
maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine The doctrine of
Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophic religion is the belief
in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is
struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil.(1)

Albert Pike, 33rd Degree, 1889

Albert Pike (1809-1891) was a General in the Confederate Army during our
American Civil War (1860-1865). From 1859 until his death in 1891, he was the
most powerful Mason in the world. He occupied simultaneously the positions of
Grand Master of the Central Directory at Washington, D.C. Grand Commander of
the Supreme Council at Charleston, S.C., and Sovereign Pontiff of Universal
Freemasonry.(2) He was an honorary member of almost every Supreme Council in
the world, personally receiving 130 Masonic degrees.(3)

On October 26, 1919, twenty-eight years after Pike's death, Alva Adams of
Colorado addressed the Supreme Council, Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish
Rite at Washington, D.C., with the following commendation of Albert Pike:

As the Laws King Alfred wrote a thousand years ago are still a part of
England's glory and liberty, so in another thousand years will the ideals, the
poetry, the moral code and philosophy of Albert Pike be shaping the influence
and destiny of Masonry. It is a patent of nobility to be a Brother to this
god-like leader -- Prince in the House of Solomon and Hiram.(4)

There is a subversive side to Albert Pike, however, about which many remain
silent. Before accession to his prestigious Masonic positions, Pike secretly
organized the rebellion of the southern states against the United States,
using the Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Freemasonry to conceal his
conspiracy. Most of the political and military leadership of the Confederacy
were Masons under Pike's secret command. In reality, our Civil War was another
battle in the war between English and French Freemasonry.(5)

Prior to our 1776 War of Independence, 32nd degree French Templarism had not
yet reached America. Although a few Templar lodges from Ireland and Scotland
were scattered throughout the northeast U.S., most were military lodges and
had not progressed beyond nine degrees. Predominant were the three-degree
English lodges. By the time George Washington was elected our first President,
32nd degree Templar Scottish Rite Freemasonry had already been established at
Charleston, S.C. -- on the 33rd degree parallel. The Scottish Rite assisted
our new government in developing French republican ideals. In 1801, nine
American Masons created the 33rd degree and the Charleston lodge became the
Mother Council of the World.

High-degree Scottish Rite lodges soon dotted the southern portion of the
United States, and the Rite moved northeast where low-degree English Masonry
was strongest. Evidence suggests that to counter this intrusion into English
Masonic territory, the British sent John James Joseph Gourgas (1777-1865) to
New York to organize clandestine Scottish Rite Lodges throughout that
region.(6)

Gourgas was well-suited to this subversive task. The Gourgas family had been
French Scottish Rite Masons living in Switzerland prior to the French
Revolution. During the Reign of Terror, the family emigrated to England, where
John James Joseph became a well-known merchant on the royal exchange. As a
matter of course, he joined low-degree English Freemasonry.(7)

The Gourgas family sailed from England to Boston in 1803, finally settling in
Weston, Massachusetts. J.J.J. Gourgas went to New York around 1806. By 1813 he
had organized five clandestine Scottish Rite lodges, one of which was called
the Cerneau Supreme Council of Sovereign Grand Inspectors General of the
Thirty-Third Degree. These subversive lodges had assisted England in her War
of 1812- 1814 against the young American nation.

In the early summer of 1813 Emanual de la Motta, a Supreme Council member from
Charleston, was visiting New York and discovered the five clandestine lodges.
An investigation ensued, and none were found to have received sponsorship from
Charleston. After conferring with the Charleston hierarchy, Motta was told to
rectify the 

[CTRL] Outline of new Republican National Health Plan.

[H Samuels]

 -Caveat Lector-

PRAY - YOU - DON'T - GET - SICK.

///


Health plan? Social Security? Why do Democrats or Republicans
care. They are all multi millionaires.

They nor their families need worry. All they have to worry about
is getting your tax money to give multi million dollar "grants"
to those who give them campaign bribes.

Yeah you can pray, rub your lucky stone and stand on your
heads, or you could begin to work together to do something.

Waiting on your political party to make things right?
Look at the tax rates in 1943 when we were in a war
and look what the tax rates are today.
Look what your democrat/republican buddies have done
for you.

You better start praying your prayer meetings better
start with your fellow Americans praying how you are
going to take the government out of the control of the
party crooks.

.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] 008 OHIO CLARK JAPPLESEED@TREE.COM

[H Samuels]

 -Caveat Lector-

For those sending post to find others in your state.
If others come along we will put you in contact with
each other.
You may work with your own private group. You can
use this process for your own list to easily
sort your fellow soldiers.
==

If you have any of your friends contact us to become part of
the project, have them use the format above.
008(my code for those interested in the project)

STATE COUNTY E-MAIL ADDRESS

All in caps, no spaces.
==
I have created a folder 008 Soldiers.
When I get posts with people interested in the project
I move their post in the folder.

With no commas, upper case and single spaces in the subject area
I just click on subject and everything is sorted in alphabetical order


Names are ok, but if there is anything you are into that may help
the project, add that info in the body.
===

Don't get into off topic information. No one who talks about
illegal stuff.
Just people who want to work with others to make things
happen.

.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Democracy Project

[H Samuels]

 -Caveat Lector-

I guess this post was private e-mail.
I get so many post and when people do not use
one of my headings, I am not sure what their post
is about .. especially when they don't leave a note
in the body.
==
What no URL to go to  and SEE ???
///
Nope, but if anyone knows of any web sites
who would be interested in this project, I'll
be glad to coordinate with them.

Many of you with internet accounts are allowed
to have your own web pages, you just need
to make up your own web pages.

I have a graphic file, you can use to place
on your page.
=
If you know of people with newsletters who might
jump in the project, let us know.
=
One of my fair feathered friends does a lot of quacking.
While making good arguments, some of it is a
"little" crude. That is ok, as long as you get the
point.

No one need jump on our band wagon, just understand
the concept and work together with those in your social
comfort.
When people in your state contact us, we will put them
on to your group.
Understand that some of the speech is to get people's
attention and make them think.
Some times I feel like we are yelling "there is a flying
saucer over the hill" and no one hears us... so we
have to hit em in the head with a rock so they will chase
us over the hill.
=

For those of you who have an actual internet connection
I guess you can get free web space in different places.
After you figure out you are ready to start swinging,
you can find newsletters, web pages and maybe
set up your own.

After we find contacts in each state, we will refer them
to others and then they will work together to establish
contacts in every county.


If this post ends up in a newsletter and you have no idea
of what I am blubbering about, it is about a project to
put control of the government back into the hands of the
people.
If any of your readers are interested in such a plan
I will send you some previous post.

.

.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] [1/3] Emerald Cup-Ark of Gold

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Emerald Cup-Ark of Gold
Col. Howard Buechner(C)1991
Thunderbird Press, Inc.
300 Cuddihy Drive
Metairie, LA 70005
-
A very interesting Book. Talk about your long running tales/conspiracy theory.
A dash of Indy Jones  the Nazis with magic thrown in for a good measure.  As
always Caveat Lector.
-

Prologue

A Glimpse of What is to Come

On April 26, 1945 in the closing days of WWII, a specially designed and
heavily reinforced Junkers transport took off from an airfield known as
Hoerching which was located near Adolf Hitler's favorite city, Linz on the
Danube, (not far from where the Fuhrer was born). According to the plane's
flight orders (Reference 39), Hitler and some of the most important members of
his inner circle were scheduled to be on board. These persons included Dr.
Joseph Goebbels, his wife and 6 children, Martin Bormann, General Otto
Fegelein, General Wilhelm Burgdorf, Eva Braun and others. The aircraft landed
in Barcelona, Spain but none of the above individuals disembarked.

They had all elected to remain in Hitler's Berlin Bunker with the Fuhrer and
there they died (with the exception of Bormann). Fegelein had not remained in
the bunker by choice, but he did die there.

Although Hitler did not escape to Barcelona, he still intended to send some of
his personal treasures to that city by the last plane to leave Hoerching on
April 30, 1945 (the day he died).

One of the many items intended to be flown out of Germany was a special box,
four feet long and weighing over 100 pounds. It had been turned over to Dr.
Helmuth von Hummel by officials of an organization, which had been set up to
assemble art and other worthy objects for Hitler's projected museum complex at
Linz.

The box is said to have contained 2,217 extremely rare gold coins which "were
acquired from various religious orders and private collections, including that
of Baron Louis Rothschild". However, it seems more likely that they had once
been a part of the Treasure of Solomon and of Montsegur.

Helmuth von Hummel was none other than Martin Bormann's Chief Secretary and
Comptroller of all of Hitler's private funds. The gold coins had been placed
in his care on direct orders from Bormann.

The box never arrived at the airport from which it was to be sent to
Barcelona. It simply vanished.

By a curious coincidence, Mrs. Bormann was carrying a similar box, containing
an identical number of rare gold coins, when she was apprehended by Allied
Forces in northern Italy just after the war. It would seem that Bormann was
feathering his nest with Hitler's gold. ("JU-290 A-6: The History and The
Mystery" by Gregory Douglas, Military Advisor, Spring 1990).

"On May 2, 1945 an SS company moving under 'special orders', and made up
uniquely only of officers, blocked the Innsbruck-Salzburg road, in order to
allow the passage of a convoy coming down from the Berghof (Hitler's home on
the Obersalzberg)."

The column was headed into the very midst of the Allied advance and there was
an urgent need for great haste if it was to accomplish its mission before
being captured. It exited from the main highway at the junction of the Isar
River and its valley, where it picked up its flanking cover and made its way
into the high mountains. Far to the north, two U-Boats (the U-530 and the
U-977) slipped out of concealed bunkers and charted a course for Antarctica.
They were laden with treasure.

On this night, the once proud Third Reich was literally falling apart or, more
correctly, being torn apart. Berlin fell to Russian forces in the north and
the defense of Munich in the south collapsed before the onslaught of the U.S.
45th (Thunderbird) Division and other units. The war was effectively over at
this point but the official end did not occur for six more days. There had
been rumors of a final German defense of what was known as the "Alpine
Fortress" in the high Alps. Even though it was doubtful that such a redoubt
actually existed, Allied forces went plunging toward Innsbruck, Salzburg and
Berchtesgaden.

It was in the latter region that the mysterious SS convoy was carrying out its
last mission. No one knows who issued the "special orders" which impelled the
men of the convoy to complete their task but they did so with supreme
dedication.

By this time, all of the prominent treasure seekers of the Third Reich had
been dispersed. Hider, of course, had died in Berlin on April 30, 1945. Grand
Admiral Karl Donitz was the new leader of the remnants of the Reich on a
temporary basis. Heinrich Himmler had been stripped of power. Martin Bormann
and General Heinrich Muller were on the run, and Goring and Skorzeny were
hiding in the mountains waiting to surrender. There was no one left to direct
the concealment of the treasures of the Reich except Professor Karl Haushofer
and perhaps it was on his impetus that the commander of the secret convoy
completed his mission. Haushofer himself (the wizard of Germany), would die
the 

[CTRL] [2/3] Emerald Cup-Ark of Gold

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Emerald Cup-Ark of Gold
Col. Howard Buechner(C)1991
Thunderbird Press, Inc.
300 Cuddihy Drive
Metairie, LA 70005
-
A very interesting Book. Talk about your long running tales/conspiracy theory.
A dash of Indy Jones  the Nazis with magic thrown in for a good measure.  As
always Caveat Lector.
-
CHAPTER VIII

The Treasure of the Cathars

"The Cathars were the guardians of the Treasure of the Visigoths and in their
secret caverns, was the Treasure of the Ages, consisting of many holy relics,
not the least of which was the Cup of God and of Abraham and of Christ
together with The Ark of the Covenant and all of its associated items."

Quote from the text

The Cathars or Cathari were members of a religious sect which appeared in
Western Europe in about 1050 A.D. They were also known as the Albigensians or
men of Albi. This name derives from the city of Albi in the south of France
which was one of the chief centers of the Cathars. The movement began in
Germany and spread rapidly to Flanders, France and Italy. The fact that
Catharism began in Germany accounts for Heinrich Himmler's later intense
interest in this group. The Cathars called themselves the "Pure Ones" or
"Perfect Ones" or "Virtuous Ones", terms which come from the Greek word for
pure, and they were indeed a people of great virtue. They were originally
Christians but had so modified Christian doctrine that they eventually became
labeled as heretics. In truth, their religious beliefs and customs have never
been fully understood, but one thing is certain, they were so fiercely loyal
to their doctrines that they would willingly die rather than denounce their
beliefs. And so they did.

The Cathars were divided into two groups. The "Perfects" and the "Believers".
The Perfects were set apart from the mass of Believers by a ceremony of
initiation. They devoted themselves to contemplation and study and were
expected to maintain the highest standards of moral behavior, including
chastity and the total abstinence from meat and diary products. In other words
they renounced all worldly things. Suicide was an accepted way of escaping the
evils of the world and was a common mode of death, usually by starvation. The
Perfects were the elite, the priests and the leaders, and more importantly,
they were those who had attained the highest knowledge which was believed to
be the key to salvation.

In general, the Cathars espoused the ancient doctrine of dualism which
maintained that there are two principles, one good and the other evil and that
the material world is evil. Man is a sojourner in this evil world and his aim
should be to free his spirit (which is good) and restore it to communion with
God in a variety of ways as indicated above.

So far, there was nothing in the religious beliefs of the Cathars that
represented true heresy, but in about 1149, after a period of very rapid
growth, the sect became an organized church. A hierarchy, a liturgy and a
system of doctrine were created and, at the same time, the first Cathar Bishop
established himself in the north of France. Within a few years there were 10
more Bishoprics in Albi, Lombardy, southern France and Italy.

Perhaps as many as 2,000,000 people belonged to the movement by that time and
Catharism was beginning to become a serious rival of the Church of Rome as it
spread like an epidemic throughout Europe.

In addition, the Cathar Church had rewritten the Biblical story of Creation,
rejected much of the Old Testament and disclaimed the divinity of Christ and
the Christian principle of incarnation. To the Cathars, Jesus was no more than
a prophet, or perhaps an angel whose human suffering and death were an
illusion.

This Cathar doctrine struck at the very roots and foundations of orthodox
Christianity and represented true heresy, which was a totally unforgivable
sin. The Cathars had sealed their own doom in this departure from the
teachings of the Church of Rome and it was only a matter of time before the
Church would move against them.

However, other factors were involved in precipitating the fate which would
soon befall the "Perfect Ones". They had allied themselves with the Knights
Templar who had adopted beliefs not unlike those of the Cathars. Notably, they
too, came to deny the divinity of Christ in spite of their orthodox Christian
beginnings. For this reason the Templars had also fallen into disfavor with
the Church. In addition to becoming good friends of the Templars, many Cathar
soldiers became members of the Templar Order and served with distinction in
its ranks. Notwithstanding their peaceful disposition, the Cathar warriors
could be fierce foes when the need arose, as they were to prove in the brutal
crusade which was soon to be launched against them. The Templars were to meet
a similar fate in 1312 as has already been described in Chapter VII.

Another piece of evidence, which supports the fact that the Cathars and the
Templars were close associates, is 

[CTRL] [3/3] Emerald Cup-Ark of Gold

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

an excerpt from:
Emerald Cup-Ark of Gold
Col. Howard Buechner(C)1991
Thunderbird Press, Inc.
300 Cuddihy Drive
Metairie, LA 70005
-
A very interesting Book. Talk about your long running tales/conspiracy theory.
A dash of Indy Jones  the Nazis with magic thrown in for a good measure.  As
always Caveat Lector.
-
CHAPTER XVIII

Otto Skorzeny and the Last Crusade

"At that time there was only one man in Germany who fitted the qualifications
that Himmler had in mind."

Quote from tenet

Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939 and WWII began. England and France
declared war on Germany two days later. Germany invaded France, Belgium,
Holland and Luxembourg in May 1940 and entered Paris in June. Shortly
thereafter, the French asked for armistice terms and Marshall Petain ordered
all troops of France to stop fighting. Within a matter of weeks all of France
was under German jurisdiction but not fully occupied until November 1942.

Heinrich Himmler was now in a position to remove the treasure of Montsegur to
German soil, with little fear of interference, but for some mysterious reason
no action was taken. Perhaps he was preoccupied with other things as the
forces of the Third Reich rolled to one success after another or perhaps he
had decided to wait until Germany was all victorious before he seized the
treasure and announced to the world that Germany had come into possession of
the priceless relics. It is also possible that Himmler was holding back until
the time when France would be fully occupied by German troops.

It is notable that the Ahnenerbe remained active during the period in question
(1940-1943) and sent excavation expeditions to Biskupice, Poland; Olympia,
Greece; Slovakia; the Croat fortress of Surval; Serbia and Caucasia. A second
expedition to Tibet was also initiated at this time with the mission of
seeking clues related to the origins of the Aryan race.

During the first part of the period referred to above, the war was going so
well for Germany that Himmler saw no reason for haste in recovering the
Emerald Cup. He thought that he knew exactly where it was hidden. France was
under the complete control of German forces and the Cup could be easily
unearthed whenever Himmler decided that the time was right.
However, in the summer and fall of 1942 some ominous signs began to appear
which to the astute observer pointed to the eventual defeat of Germany. During
this time the mighty German advance into Russia began to grind to a halt at
Stalingrad and the "Desert Fox", Marshal Erwin Rommel suffered his first
defeat at El Alamein. As his army began its retreat from North Africa, Rommel
came to the conclusion that the war could no longer be won. At about the same
time, one of the top leaders of the Third Reich, Reich Protektor Reinhard
Heydrich, was assassinated in Prague, Czechoslovakia. Before he died he
predicted that the war would be lost. To make matters worse, America had
entered the conflict against Germany and U.S. troops began pouring into North
Africa and England. It was then only a matter of time before an Allied
invasion of continental Europe would begin, probably from both the south and
the north. In fact, Allied forces invaded Sicily in July 1943 and shortly
thereafter, the assault on southern Italy began.

The situation was changing rapidly and, by this time, Himmler became convinced
that he must make a move to recover the treasure. In June, 1943 a group of
German scientists, consisting of geologists, historians, and archeologists
appeared at Montsegur. They were under the protection of German troops and
German controlled French militia. They explored the grottoes in the
surrounding mountains and carried out excavations in various places for six
months but came up empty-handed.

Simultaneously, similar teams were carrying out digs at Rennes-le-Chateau and
various other locations in France, largely with negative results.
The failure of his scientists to find the treasure came as a bitter
disappointment to Himmler and led his advisors to the following conclusions:

1. The treasure did not exist.

2. The treasure did exist but was not in the Montsegur area.

3. The treasure was in the Montsegur area but Otto Rahn had not discovered its
location.

4. The treasure was in the Montsegur area and Otto Rahn had learned enough to
predict its exact place of concealment, but he had simply misinformed his
superiors about its location and had taken his secret to the grave. This may
have been the reason for Rahn's death.

Himmler flatly rejected the theory that the treasure did not exist. He also
rejected the premise that it was located in an area other than the Montsegur
region.

Rahn had undoubtedly reported to Himmler after each visit to the Languedoc.
Apparently he had told the Reichsfuhrer that he had not actually found the
treasure but sincerely believed that he had come so close to success that he
knew exactly where it was located. This is the reason a third trip to the

[CTRL] Books Critical of Scientology Stolen and Destroyed

[Bill Kingsbury]

 -Caveat Lector-

 from:
 http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/mpoulter/scum/stealing.html


 "Church" of $cientology  Book Burning

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ed Wolfe)

 I find it interesting that the "Church" of Scientology has
 hooked up with the ADL and that books the ADL doesn't like
 have turned up missing from public libraries.

 Check out this affidavit regarding the C of S and it's
 book removal activities:

 [begin excerpt]

 The following is an excerpt from
 a Public Record Court Document

 United States District Court Central District of California
 Case # CV 91 6426 HLH (Tx)
 Declaration of Graham E. Berry re deposition testimony of
 Garry Scarff.  April 4 1994

 Garry Scarff was an operative for the Church of $cientology's
 Office of Special Affairs, (OSA)


 Books Critical of Scientology Stolen and Destroyed.


 Q. Mr. Scarff, have you now located the two exhibits that
 you had tried to locate with reference to stealing library
 records?

 A. Yes, sir, I did.

 Q. Turning your attention to Exhibit-99, what is that?

 A. This is a letter that I sent to Ginnie Cooper, the
 Director of Libraries for Multnomah County, which is the
 county where Portland, Oregon rests.  And it is concerning an
 operation in which I was a part of a -- part of which has
 been a long time policy within the Church of Scientology to
 eradicate not only from what I have spoken to already on
 court files but eradicating from library systems throughout
 the country, any information that is critical or adverse to
 the Church of Scientology.

 And specifically within the library systems within the City
 of Portland, Oregon, I as well as other individuals within
 the Church of Scientology just as a matter of policy were
 ordered to destroy any and all critical materials adverse to
 the Church of Scientology.  And this letter is to the
 Director of Libraries informing her that all of such books
 that are on file at the library which have been listed as
 "lost" are not lost.  They had been destroyed.  And I list
 six books there.

 Specifically one book refers to -- entitled "A Piece of Blue
 Sky" by Jon Atack, who is a former high ranking member of the
 Church of Scientology who wrote an expose on Scientology.

 And I recall there were approximately four to five copies of
 this book in the library all which were listed as lost.
 And this letter explains to Ms. Cooper, basically, that the
 Church of Scientology destroys materials on a regular basis
 which they consider to be adverse, including if she were to
 check the library's copy of Time Magazine dated May 6th of
 l991 they will notice that that article had been cut from the
 magazine because the Church of Scientology considered it to
 be adverse.

 Exhibit-100 is a response to me from this library director in
 which she did a full inventory of the books that they had and
 claims that several of the books appear to be out of print
 now and the library currently has no copies.  I refer to one,
 the book entitled "Inside Scientology" by Robert Kaufman.
 She said the library has no copies.

 No. 2, "The Scandal of Scientology" by Paulette Cooper.
 She responds the library currently has no copies.

 No. 3, "The Hidden Story of Scientology", by Omar Garrison.
 She responds there are two copies in the library and there
 are no copies at the central library.  And it is out of print.

 No. 4, book entitled "L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Mad Man" by
 Bent Corydon.  She responds there are supposed to be
 currently 13 copies in the library.  However, seven of these
 copies are currently listed as lost and there are two copies
 on order to replace the two copies lost at the central
 library.

 No. 5, book entitled "Bare-Faced Messiah: The True Story of
 L. Ron Hubbard" by Russell Miller.  "She responds there are
 supposed to be four copies in the county library, two of the
 four copies are listed as lost.  And the book is out of print.

 No. 6, "A Piece of Blue Sky", she responds there are supposed
 to be three copies in the county library, two of these three
 are currently listed as lost.

 She refers to the Time magazine article dated May 6th of 1991
 and claims that the article is on microfilm and therefore the
 issue can be found in microfilm, but the print copy is
 missing.

 She also states that she instituted safeguards to protect
 reordenng these books based upon the letter that I sent her.

 Q. Now, turning your attention to Exhibit-99, the last
 paragraph on that document, that letter states: 'These
 missing books were in fact stolen from the library and
 destroyed in fulfillment of an internal directive by the
 church which instructs its members to eradicate all published
 materials critical of Scientology and to replace it with
 pro-Scientology materials.

 A. That's correct.

 Q. How do you know that these missing books were in fact
 stolen from the library?

 A. Because I was very much a part of the effort to steal the
 books from the library and destroy them.

 Q. Was 

Re: [CTRL] Clinton replies

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:

When one makes legit arguments
 *agenda*
 that politicians are scum bags
their Lemmings
 *i asked if the lemming got paid [evasion]*
 "defense" is no defense at all, but their tactics
is to throw stones at those who expose/ spell out politician filth.


the filth you finger may be your own. your stones are very evident

As you study issues, you must understand what proofs/arguments
contribute to the issue at hand and what information is thrown
in to create a smoke screen. i.e.


*your agenda is easy to read and very easy to adopt; you need only adopt
the ideas some old tired shit spells out for you. that way you don't have
to think.*


==
you seem to have an uncommon interest in this. do you get paid for your
stupidity; if not, it is really a waste. this is the attitude that will
get you paid; but you can't go out much and never, never express an
opinion in public. if you do, i have a psychic prediction for you ...
guess what that is. Knyuck, Knyuck, Knyuck.
* My uncommon interest.
* I get paid for stupidity ... and other important information?
 ***
Your subject line should have read:  More deranged commentary
 from dr. quack quack.
*  Here the subject is about the deranged author


*i repeat my question: do you get paid for your stupidity? if not, you are
worse than a mental prostitute, that would make you a brown nosed boot
lick; the lowest creature beneath the scum. you refer to yourself as
deranged but in my usual liberal bent, i would have to say that you are
very sick and may be rehabilitated, if referred to the appropriate
institution.*

==
All such things about me (and much more) may be true for argument's
sake, but the reply had no response to the proof that the United States
has Chester the molester as their president.


*you see. they told you to say that. just to keep the hubbub going so that
they can slip something by everyone while they hold our attention on this
mountain they are making of this ant hill. and we are supposed to believe
your idiotic fluff by the simple force of its conspiratorial-like agenda.
your betters seem to think that by making enough noise about the issue,
that they can make it appear to have actual merit. but it does not; just a
lot of noise and fluff created to divert attention from real matters.*

==
One of the test of good/evil is the test of hypocrisy. If you must
apply a different standard for others than you have for your own
you are evil.


*the true test of an idiot is in the leprecy. if his ideas are those of a
leper. and he stinks like a leper, and looks like a leper and his flesh
falls off before your eyes; he IS a leper.*

===

It has nothing to do with the fact that if this same thing would
happened to:
*  The daughter of Clinton
*  The daughter of any of Clinton's supporters
*  The daughter of any congressman/senator
(grabbed by the crotch and given a ... to suck)


*every woman is somebodies daughter. the hallowed halls of congress and
state houses across the country is full of a lot more sick perverts than
this one the republicans hold before us on this day. he is a lot less sick
than the moral degenerates who have you spouting what you spout. these
same moral degenerates are behind this non-issue you and your fellow
republican kkk, are wasting the time of the whole world with this zero
issue. that man sounds posityively evil the way that you discribe him.*

*you work for much sicker bastards than the one it is your job to point
your finger at. if not, you are brown nosing and boot licking the same*


There would be an outrage, law suite, the pervert would be jailed
and in many cases the pervert would have the hell beat out of them !


*along with your betters and their agenda, even more so.*


Now because chester the molester has been identified as the
god of the Lemmings, they protect the pervert that would
have his face mashed in if it happened to their own daughter !


would you send me a picture of your daughter?  : 7~


When this fact is brought before the eyes of the Lemmings, they
do not/can not admit to the fact, their only recourse is to attack
those who presented the facts (that they can not stand)

how do you like my specs, big boy?



Governments of all nations have made brainwashing groupies
a science. It seems we have millions of dollars to teach kids
about dinosaurs, how to give safe oral sex, meditation ...
but there will never be any studies which teach logic and to
know when they have been used.

*
we are back to the star trek rerun mr spock lookalike logic olympics are
we? you would not know logic if it kicked your te
eth in. you tv kids raised on remote channel changers instead of nipples,
really bust my hilarious nutz 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Che]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 08:36 PM 12/12/98 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?

That would explain the big stink raised by the so-called "liberal media"
when Brill's Content printed their "Pressgate" story.  You'd think Steven
Brill was an enemy of the Rupublic for daring to question the media's cozy
relationship w/ Ken Starr.  Wake up kids, the mainstream media is about as
liberal as Ronald Reagan.


Yes, it is surprising that the polls say this - if they are legitimate.

If you don't believe the polls, try crawling out of your troll cave
sometime and asking your fellow citizens how they feel about the subject.
Being social isn't that difficult, in fact I consider it to be and
important part of citizenship.  I've had trouble finding anyone, even a
registered Republican, that is for impeachment (A caveat - I'm from Oregon;
Republicans are a little different here).


Actually the most frightening element would be the possibility that these
polls might indeed be true, which would prove that our society has finally
devolved literally into "the ignorant masses."  I would not argue that
"neither the Congressional majority nor the media care a fig what the
electorate wants," but in fairness, and in the interest of accuracy, I would
have to add that neither does the congressional minority.

I had an interesting conversation w/ some coworkers at the company
Christmas party tonite.  First there was a discussion about how Clinton's
sexual peccadillos were nothing compared to Bush's involvement in the both
the SL  Iran/Contra scandals.  Then we discussed Bush's ties w/ C I A
drug running.  A coworker and his wife from Texas acted like the Bush/C I
A/drug connection was common knowledge.  I can hardly characterize them as
being a part of "the ignorant masses".


If you mean Jimmy Carter, yes he's been laughed
at quite a bit, but not by the media. His problem was simply incompetence; he
simply wasn't up to the job. But that is not a part of his historical legacy.
His legacy is merely that he was a very nice man. And this brings us to Mr.
Clinton.

The irony is that Carter is probably the last honorable man that will serve
as president (honorable relative to other presidents, that is, I know about
Jimmy's dirty laundry).  It's hard to find anyone that thinks he was a good
president (myself included), yet he is to this day a decent human being.
You'll never find George Bush swinging a hammer to build a house for a poor
person.


It is you and the pundits who are helping to form your opinions who are
making
the mistake. This is not a coup. It is the legitimate activity of the
American
constitutional system of government in reaction to a crisis. A bit late and a
bit light perhaps, but the system is working, and at least so far, we should
all be thankful for that.

No, it's the devolution into political gridlock via unlawful abuse of the
independent council statutes and other laws.  It's the dissolution of the
carefully placed balances of power in our Constitution.  It's the end of
democracy as we know it.  From now on, if Congress doesn't like what the
Executive or Judicial branches are doing, then they can just tie them up w/
an "independent council".  The distraction will easily drown out any
meaningful public discourse about things that really matter to you or me.


 And all of you who think that you hate/dislike/disapprove of Clinton are
not
going to  like what comes nextbut you will deserve it.

This I would agree with. None of us is going to like what comes next. And we
will all deserve it. Those of us who vehemently disapprove of the level of
corruption exemplified by your Mr. Clinton will deserve it because of our
apathy, lack of protest. Those like yourself who condone and support the
actions of men like Bill Clinton will deserve it because of your
unwillingness
to see truth through your own smokey aura of petty and selfish emotion. It is
a sad thing for all of us.

I do not for a minute think Clinton is an innocent choirboy.  But I'd
prefer that he be given the benefit of the protections afforded by our
Constitution and the laws of the land.  Otherwise, it might be me they're
coming for next time w/ their illegal wiretaps, their illegal press leaks,
their illegal detention without legal representation, and their overzealous
interpretation of the Constitution.

Che

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 98-12-13 04:36:15 EST, you write:


 At 08:36 PM 12/12/98 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
 covering for the current president since before his first election. For
years
 prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
 you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?

zeus8 wrote:
 That would explain the big stink raised by the so-called "liberal media"
 when Brill's Content printed their "Pressgate" story.  You'd think Steven
 Brill was an enemy of the Rupublic for daring to question the media's cozy
 relationship w/ Ken Starr.  Wake up kids, the mainstream media is about as
 liberal as Ronald Reagan.

Do you actually think the press is "right wing?"  You think the media is in
bed with Ken Starr?  Starr and Clinton are buddies, Starr is saving Clinton's
butt by not bringing up charges of treason for accepting bribes from the Red
Chinese in the form of campaign donations.  Clinton has given the Red Chinese
full access to nearly anything they want except nuclear weapons.  These are
the charges Clinton should have to be dealing with, not the "smoke and
mirrors" of sexual deviancy

zeus8 wrote:

 If you don't believe the polls, try crawling out of your troll cave
 sometime and asking your fellow citizens how they feel about the subject.
 Being social isn't that difficult, in fact I consider it to be and
 important part of citizenship.  I've had trouble finding anyone, even a
 registered Republican, that is for impeachment (A caveat - I'm from Oregon;
 Republicans are a little different here).

I've taken many a straw poll at work (work, from people that work, not manage,
but perform the work that makes the managers rich) and two out of thirty-seven
were not for impeachment.  Could be that people who work, don't like
Clinton... why would anyone respect a President who doesn't know the meaning
of the word "is."


zeus8 wrote:
 I had an interesting conversation w/ some coworkers at the company
 Christmas party tonite.  First there was a discussion about how Clinton's
 sexual peccadillos were nothing compared to Bush's involvement in the both
 the SL  Iran/Contra scandals.  Then we discussed Bush's ties w/ C I A
 drug running.  A coworker and his wife from Texas acted like the Bush/C I
 A/drug connection was common knowledge.  I can hardly characterize them as
 being a part of "the ignorant masses".

Talk about comparing apples and oranges!  Compare Clinton, not using the media
dominated crap about sex, but the real issues such as Chinagate, Whitewater,
UN parks, UN historical rivers, Africa bombings and the Sudan bombings,
Clinton and drug connections in Mena and deaths surrounding him, the list goes
on and on.  Compare Clinton and Bush this way and you'll find they are the
same... just no one had the balls to take on Bush.


 zeus8 wrote:

 The irony is that Carter is probably the last honorable man that will serve
 as president (honorable relative to other presidents, that is, I know about
 Jimmy's dirty laundry).  It's hard to find anyone that thinks he was a good
 president (myself included), yet he is to this day a decent human being.
 You'll never find George Bush swinging a hammer to build a house for a poor
 person.

Don't remember seeing Clinton swinging a hammer either.  In your reply to
Jyester you only seem to address the fact that Bush was not a good President
rather than stick to the subject at hand "Clinton."  I guess that is easier
than defending Clinton, since he has no defense.


 zeus8 wrote:

 No, it's the devolution into political gridlock via unlawful abuse of the
 independent council statutes and other laws.  It's the dissolution of the
 carefully placed balances of power in our Constitution.  It's the end of
 democracy as we know it.  From now on, if Congress doesn't like what the
 Executive or Judicial branches are doing, then they can just tie them up w/
 an "independent council".  The distraction will easily drown out any
 meaningful public discourse about things that really matter to you or me.

From the Constitution, Article II, Section 4:

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States,
shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason,
Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Impeachment of the President is one of the checks and balances of the
Constitution.


zeus8 wrote:

 I do not for a minute think Clinton is an innocent choirboy.  But I'd
 prefer that he be given the benefit of the protections afforded by our
 Constitution and the laws of the land.  Otherwise, it might be me they're
 coming for next time w/ their illegal wiretaps, their illegal press leaks,
 their illegal detention without legal representation, and their overzealous
 interpretation of the Constitution. 

If it were you or me who was being brought up on these charges we would be
imprisoned, 

Re: [CTRL] [prj] Occult (Secret) Technology of Commercial Imperialism or Business Collectivism?

[Lloyd Miller]

-Original Message-From: 
Martin H. Katchen [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
Lloyd Miller, A-albionic Research [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 
Sunday, December 13, 1998 12:23 AMSubject: Re: [prj] Occult 
(Secret) Technology of Commercial Imperialism or Business 
Collectivism?
Dear Lloyd:
There may be one other 
group as old and as widespread and as conspiratorial as the British East 
India Company. I am speaking of the VOC,

Lloyd Asks: What 
does VOC mean?

the Dutch East Indies Company. Just as the British 
East India Company plundered and utilized the resources of India, so the VOC 
did with Java and ultimately, much of the rest of Indonesia and the Cape 
Colony. The VOC's territorial holdings were not nationalized until 1820, not 
long after the Congress of Vienna and only 16 years before the 
nationalization of India by the British Crown. 

Lloyd Remarks: I think we can assume 
that the British and Dutch East India Companies were co-ordinated after the 
Glorious Revolution and William was awarded the British Crown. The 
last Anglo-Dutch War was in the days of Cromwell, I believe.

One wonders how the influence of the VOC spread throughout 
Dutch politics in its heyday and therafter. In Indonesia, it ruled 
indirectly via the Culture System in which Javanese rulers were obliged to 
cultivate certain amounts of acreage in agricultural products such as pepper 
or sugar that the VOC would sell in Europe. One wonders the degree to which 
the Javanese kleptocratic elite that has brought Indonesia to bankruptcy was 
the heirs to the VOC and its methods. 

Lloyd Sez: Yes, 
indeed! Probably very closely related. Many have 
called Britain's Raj socialistic.

Or one can wonder about South Africa's Broederbond, the 
Boer secret society which was behind the replacement of Anglo rule in South 
Africa with Afrikaner rule in 1948 and the imposition of Apartheid. One 
wonders, but one would need to be literate in Dutch to find out, 
unfortuanately. At least the British East India Company material is in 
English.

Lloyd Responds: Here, I think the 
record is pretty clear. The Dutch had long lost control of their 
settlers is South Africa though the Boer's fondness for slavery was part of 
the old Dutch system (Brazil too). When the British seized the Cape, 
they outlawed slavery, forcing the Dutch into their great trek into the 
interior to escape British rule. Contrary to some conspiracy 
theorists, Lord Milner and his Kindergarten where not the 
inventors of Apartheid...the British always worked toward a color blind rule 
of law. However, the British victory in the Boer war was of little 
use. The Boers quickly achieved political dominance through the failed 
institutions set-up by Milner after the war. Onlyl recenty were the 
Brits able to finally defeat the Boers through an alliance with the African 
majority under TuTu and Mandella, etc. One of Mandella's first acts 
was to rejoin the British Commonwealth.

All the best
Martin H. Katchen

-Original 
Message-From: Lloyd Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
Reality Pump Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
New Paradigms Discussion Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Conspiracy 
List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
Agendas Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
A-albionic Weekly Up-date [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 
Saturday, December 12, 1998 6:39 AMSubject: [prj] Occult 
(Secret) Technology of Commercial Imperialism or Business 
Collectivism?
A-albionic Research Weekly Up-date of December 12, 1998
^

 
The Occult (Secret) Technology 
of 
Commercial 
Imperialism 
or Business Collectivism?

-snip-

***Lloyd Miller, 
Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,Ferndale, MI 
48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for theentire 
political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly journal, book 
sales,rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, 
Weekly Up-dateLists  E-text Archive of research, intelligence, 
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http://msen.com/~lloyd/ 
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** Explore Our Archive: http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic.html 
Video Finder, Free Catalogs, Links, 

[CTRL] Clinton Poll from AOL

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

Sunday 6:00 AM 13 Dec 1998

The Judiciary Committee rejected the Democrats' censure resolution. Do you
think the full House should have the chance to consider a censure resolution
as an alternative to impeachment?

Yes, it is an alternative that
 Congress should consider  4538 35.2%
 No, censure is not
 a constitutional option7884 61.2%
 Not sure 458   3.6%
Total votes:  12880

  Do you think the American people understand and care more about impeachment
now that the Judiciary Committee has recommended impeaching the president?

 Yes7006   54.5%
 No  4419   34.4%
 Not sure  1427   11.1%
Total votes: 12852

  Is impeachment of the president in-step with or out-of-step with the wishes
of the American people?

 In-step, Americans want impeachment  6987  55.4%
 Out-of-step, Americans
don't want impeachment5636  44.6%
Total votes: 12623

  As the full House prepares to vote on impeachment next week, do you plan to
let your representative know your opinion on the vote?

 Yes, by paper mail 491  3.8%
 Yes, by e-mail 7544 58.7%
 Yes, by fax   296   2.3%
 Yes, by phone 1339 10.4%
 No  1849 14.4%
 Not sure  1339 10.4%
Total votes: 12858

  If you disagreed with your representative's vote on impeachment, would you
hold it against him/her in the next election?

Yes 9415   73.3%
 No  2251   17.5%
 Not sure  1179 9.2%
Total votes: 12845

  Should the president resign to spare the country from impeachment
proceedings or a trial in the Senate?

 Yes 8023 62.3%
 No   4445 34.5%
 Not sure 403  3.1%
Total votes:   12871

  Do you think that President Clinton will make a public statement next week
where he admits to lying--either to the public or the grand jury--about his
relationship with Monica Lewinsky?

 Yes, he will finally realize
it is the right thing to do356 2.8%
 Yes, the political pressure
will force him to do so 156112.3%
 No, his attorneys won't permit
him to put himself in
more legal jeopardy 404631.8%
 No, it's not in his nature  553343.5%
 Not sure1229  9.7%
Total votes:   12725

  If the House votes to impeach, the stock markets will

not react--they have already
 anticipated such an event  4976  38.8%
 shudder and drop about 200 points 2477  19.3%
 plummet by more than 200 points   2611  20.4%
 Not sure   2756   21.5%
Total votes:  12820

  Should lawmakers consider the market reaction when they weigh whether to
impeach the president?

 yes--we all have a stake in
the political and financial outcome2846   22.3%
 no--they should do their job as
outlined by the Constitution  9918   77.7%
Total votes:   12764

  What should the Congress do to President Clinton?
The House should impeach him,
and the Senate should remove him from office   7687   59.6%
 The House should impeach him,
and the matter should end there624
4.8%
 The Congress should censure him  1737   13.5%
 He has suffered enough, the matter should end1392   10.8%
 The Congress should censure him503 3.9%
 He has suffered enough, the matter should end  779 6.0%
 Not sure 174
1.3%
Total votes:  12896

  I am  Male8569  67.0%
  Female4218  33.0%
Total votes:   12787

  I am a registered  Republican5127  40.3%
  Democrat3220  25.3%
  Independent 3632  28.6%
  I am not a registered voter   7295.7%
 Total votes:  12708

  My age is  under 18  209  1.6%
 18-29  1120  8.7%
 30-39  2625 20.4%
 40-49  3863 30.1%
 50-59  2810 

Re: [CTRL] [Reality_Pump] Marcia: More Anglo-Mossad Blackmail of Clinton?

[Lloyd Miller]

 -Caveat Lector-

I am new in this list and  I don't think that the "United Snakes" policy
in the Iraq affair serves any Israeli interests in the area. I really
think we are defending only Anglo-American oil interests.

There is no essential difference between Israeli interests and
Anglo-American oil interests.  Iraq would destroy Israel and the
Anglo-American Oil cartel if it could.

The Brits recognized Jewish settlement of Palestine as part of their balance
of power/divide and conquer mideast strategy.  True, Israel took their
"indepedence" outside the original Brit plans, but the overall plan
continues to function anyway as Israel is totally helpless without American
aid.  Basically, Israel serves to destabilize the middle east the in the
interest of Anglo-American Oil Imperialism.  The Oil Imperialists cannot
allow a stable independent Arab dominated block to develop.   Israel is key
to classic divide and conquer tactics of Western Imperialism.

***
Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,
Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the
entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date
Lists  E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs,  resources.
 To Discuss Ideas:
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://msen.com/~lloyd/
  For Ordering Info  Free Catalog:
   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://a-albionic.com/formaddress.html
  For Discussion List:
   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   text in body:  subscribe prj [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 **FREE RARE BOOK SEARCH: http://a-albionic.com/search.html **
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 http://www.msen.com/~daugh/store.htm
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Scandal in 13 Acts

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

Excerpted the first part of a Washington (DC) Post special @
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/td_pro
logue.htm

WASHINGTON POST MAGAZINE | DECEMBER 13, 1998

Picture: HOW IT CAME TO THIS: THE SCANDAL IN 13 ACTS
BY DAVID FINKEL

It was one of President Clinton's greatest days: the signing of a peace
accord between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization. Yitzhak
Rabin was at the White House. So was Yasser Arafat. So were George Bush and
Jimmy Carter. So were Cabinet members and most members of Congress. And so
was Walter Kaye, a lifelong insurance man, property and casualty his
specialty, who five years later would come before the Ken Starr grand jury
to explain how his presence at the White House that day was, arguably, the
most consequential of all.

"I'll tell you what happened," Walter Kaye would tell the grand jury. He
was talking about the events leading up to September 13, 1993, when he was
70 years old, and recently retired, and rich, and living in New York, and
feeling somewhat adrift. "I was going through a very, very difficult
emotional period," he said. "I had suffered a heart attack, and they sold
the business, and I was pushed out right away. A very emotional thing, you
know. You start a business from scratch, and I don't want to brag, but we
did have a very nice business. And I was in bad shape.

  CUT 

"Okay. Now you're familiar with the internship program at the White House?"


"Not 100 percent, but I know they have a lot of these young interns working
there."

"Okay. And have you recommended people for jobs as interns in the White
House during the Clinton administration?"

"Yes."

"And about how many people have you recommended, if you know?"

"Off the top of my head, just two."

"And who are they?"

"Monica Lewinsky and my grandson."

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 FULL TEXT



© Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company

AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] HIGH NOON

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

Forwarded Message:
Subj:SNET: HIGH NOON
Date:   98-12-13 08:01:43 EST
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Sterling)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-  SNETNEWS  Mailing List

From: Sandi Brockway / Macrocosm USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]





HIGH NOON



In the 1950s classic western about honor and conformity, fear and courage,

Marshal Gary Cooper faces a murderous gang of killers all by himself while a

town, paralyzed by fear, does nothing to help. Cooper risks not only his

life but the love of Grace Kelly and does what honor, and a higher moral

compass require of him. The spineless town, which had hired him to do for

them what they would not do for themselves, vacillates, cringes and waffles.

Cooper, terrified and abandoned, faces the gunmen alone. At the end of the

movie the killers are dead but there is no resolution. The only thing that

remains is an empty street awaiting the

next group of bandits. There is no Marshal, no hero, no martyr. He has left

in disgust, happily for him, with Grace by his side, his badge lying in the

dust. There is nothing there worthy of sacrifice.



The San Jose Mercury News reported, on November 22, that hearings in the

House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) will take place

sometime in mid to late January on Volume II of the CIA Inspector General's

report on Contra drug trafficking. The Mercury calls the pending hearings,

Congress' "final look" at the issue. With those hearings every issue raised

by Gary Webb's stories and all the efforts of many men and women, for

decades, will be laid to rest. There will be no more chances in our

lifetimes. The matter will be officially closed.



I offer you two scenarios. Scenario One: Moved by a massive outcry from the

public and enormous pressure on the news media, HPSCI holds well publicized

hearings, with advance publicity, and calls Gary Webb, Cele Castillo, Mike

Levine, Mike Ruppert, Dee Ferdinand, Danillo Blandon, Oliver North, John

Poindexter, Robert Gates, Alan Fiers and a dozen others as witnesses. The

hearings result in a massive public outcry and Congress, faced with

overwhelming evidence of CIA wrongdoing, condemns the Agency and opens the

door for reparations, abolition of CIA, and long overdue reforms in our

criminal justice system.



Scenario Two: Due to the fact that no public interest was expressed, HPSCI

holds sudden hearings, which are covered only by C-SPAN with no notice. The

witness list is short and limited only to Fred Hitz, George Tenet and Maxine

Waters. The major media does not cover the hearings live and brief spots on

the evening news report only that CIA was sloppy and received a minor

wrist-slapping for its association with drug dealers during the Contra war

years. Vague recommendations are made that the CIA undertake a review of its

procedures with no time-specific period for completion. The matter is

closed. As CIA apologist David Korn of The Nation has predicted - "CIA gets

away with it." The bandits all head for the saloon to get more whiskey,

women and song. The town is doomed. Each citizen returns to hoping that

someone else will be the next victim.



There's a time for reading, for learning, and for waiting. There's also a

time for doing. The scenario, which plays out in January, is entirely up to

you. Make no mistake about the stakes. As reported by Alex Cockburn in his

book Whiteout, New York Times reporter Keith Schneider wrote in 1987 that,

"such a story could shatter the Republic." If you believe that life cannot

exist without the Republic then do nothing. If you believe that life rests

on something more fundamental and pure then get off your behind and do

something - now. CIA is still dealing drugs and if they are not challenged

then the saloon door, the entire town and you are standing wide open. With

what has been revealed in Volume II we will never have a chance like this
again.



Throw Your Weight Around!



FROM THE GOVERNMENT WE WANT:



1. Disqualification of retired CIA covert operative J. Porter Goss as

Chairman of the House Permanent Select committee on Intelligence before any

hearings on grounds of conflict of interest.



2. Adequate public notice in advance of the hearings so that the press may

cover them.



3. Testimony from all relevant witnesses including Celerino Castillo, Mike

Levine, Rick Horn, Mike Ruppert, Bob Parry and Gary Webb.



GOVERNMENT CONTACTS



 THE WHITE HOUSE

 President William Clinton, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington, D.C. 20500.

 202-456-1414

 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

 The Hon. Bob Livingston, 2406 Rayburn, Washington,

 D.C. 20515, 202-225-3015

 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE

 Rm H-405, US Capitol, Wash., D.C. 20515

 Phone 202-225-4121. FAX 202-225-1991



 SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

Re: [CTRL] Occult (Secret) Technology of Commercial Imperialism or Business Collectivism?

[Lloyd Miller]

-Original Message-From: 
Martin H. Katchen [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
Lloyd Miller, A-albionic Research [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 
Sunday, December 13, 1998 3:00 AMSubject: Re: Occult (Secret) 
Technology of Commercial Imperialism or Business 
Collectivism?
Dear Lloyd:
Several more thoughts come to mind. First, one can see 
parallel developments of socialized corporations in Japan, in which 
commercial groups which later became zaibatsu such as Mitsui and Mitsubishi 
were already active during Tokugawa times.
 
Secondly, I'm surprised that you didn't mention the Knights Templar as a 
possible antecedent of the East India Company. They were bankers and 
financiers and settled in the British Isles following their persecution by 
Phillip Augustus in France. 

Lloyd Responds: I think the connection 
is thisthe Knights Templar was basically a continental secret society 
with ties to the Middle East dating from the Crusades. No doubt 
well connected to the commerical imperialism of Venice. After Philip 
looted the Knights (killing the goose the lays the golden eggs?) the 
remnants of the Knight fled to Scotland where it transformed itself into 
Masonry and was taken-over by the British Crown at the time of the Glorious 
Revolution. Can't prove it yet, but I'll bet that the power in the 
East India Company were 100% Masons within a few decades of the Glorious 
Revolution.

An aside...to often researchers are thrown off by the 
difference between English and Continental Masonry. Nonsense! In 
England, the King's secret society supports his 
government. On the continent it seeks to destroy his enemies!ie, 
the Pope and the Most Catholic Monarchs of Spain, France, and 
Austria!


 And thirdly, the 
socializing tendencies of capitalism were quite obvious to Karl Marx, who 
saw capitalism as a neccesary step from feudalism to socialism and 
ultimately communism. According to Marx, capitalists would be constrained to 
merge their enterprises into monopolies which would be under pressure to 
squeeze workers still further. Capitalists read Marx and took it to 
heart.( They still do; perhaps it takes a capitalist to slog through 
all three volumes of Das Kapital). They related to his diagnosis and his 
prognosis and took steps to adapt to it.
all the 
best
Martin H. Katchen
***Lloyd 
Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,Ferndale, 
MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for theentire 
political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly journal, book 
sales,rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly 
Up-dateLists  E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, 
 resources.To Discuss Ideas: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://msen.com/~lloyd/ For 
Ordering Info  Free Catalog: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://a-albionic.com/formaddress.html 
For Discussion List: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
text in body: subscribe prj [EMAIL PROTECTED]**FREE 
RARE BOOK SEARCH: http://a-albionic.com/search.html 
** Explore Our Archive: http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic.html 
Video Finder, Free Catalogs, Links, Sweepstakes, 
What-Not: http://www.msen.com/~daugh/store.htm***

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Sno0wl wrote:
Just one more case of the media--which seems to be in the pocket of
the Republicans and the radical right and whoever the puppetmasters
are--calling the shots before the play is done.

What media are YOU watching?

All the mainstream shows I watch (CNN, The Today Show, et al), they all
unanimously kowtow to the Klintons...treating them like royalty, never
subjecting them to hard questions.  And this past week, the talking heads
on these shows have looked 'shell shocked', totally surprised that the
impeachment articles were passed...

Just a few minutes ago, on Fox News, one of the talking heads opined that
'the media' will present impeachment in the worst possible light, and
that the media 'will not allow impeachment of the president'...

Hardly sounds like they're in the pocket of the Republicans...


Nothing new. They haven't stopped all year and they're not about to
stop now. The only thing that makes this "surprising" is the
polls--which still say this is NOT what the American public wants.

First off, even if these polls are accurate, they matter not a whit.

The government is one of LAWS, and hopefully of our representatives going
with their conscious, and not one of public opinion polls.

Secondly, I am extremely skeptical of these polls...first off, most of
the public equates the word 'impeachment' with automatic removal from
office, so if you ask them just a blunt "Should the president be
impeached?", they assume the questioner is asking "Should the president
be immediately removed from office?", and answer no.

I think the resulting answers would be very different if the question was
worded "Should the charges against the president be assessed by the House
of Representatives, and if judged to have some basis, then passed on to
the Senate to conduct an investigation, and if such an investigation
uncovered serious wrong-doing, have the Senate remove the President
from office by a two-thirds affirmative vote in the Senate?"...

The debate on the Judiciary Committee yesterday touched on this...the
Republicans finally brought the fact that most people have an erroneous
idea of what 'impeachment' means by repeatedly stating 'the House
accuses, the Senate tries (and possibly convicts)'and the Democrats
reaction to that betrays their desire to keep the exact definition of
'impeachment' cloudy in the minds of the public, so they can 'justify'
their claim that the public doesn't want it...

Listening to the callers into CSPAN, those who support Clinton amply
displayed their ignorance of just what impeachment is...in fact, they
almost all betrayed the fact that they don't even know what the 4
articles of impeachment actually state...


And that is the most frightening element of this whole thing.  That
neither the Congressional majority nor the media cares a fig what the
electorate wants.

The majority of Germans supported Hitler, too...

The majority of Americans at one time supported the enslavement of the
Negro race...

The majority of Americans at one time supported the right of only white
males having the right to vote...

The majority of Americans at one time supported denying the right of a
woman to a safe and legal abortion...

Just because a majority supports an idea or a person, does NOT mean such
support is morally, or legally, correct...


Someone here made an excellent post some time back about the
humiliation of Democratic presidents in our time. They have not
merely been accused of "wrongdoing," but have been dragged before the
American public in shame.

Lord knows I'm no knee-jerk Republican supporter, but the only Democratic
presidents 'in our time' have been (going in reverse order):

1.  Clinton -- who came into office with a lot of 'baggage',
and an obvious defect of character where he admittedly
allows his hormones to control his actions...

Not to mention all the other really serious stuff...
all the mysterious deaths surrounding him, Whitewater,
Vince Foster, Chinagate, etc

Hardly a saint without blemish, one can NOT blame anyone
but Clinton himself for his own undoing...


2.  Carter -- shot himself in his own foot with the Panama
Canal, the neutron bomb debate, and the economy...

While the release of the Iran hostages was obviously
'gummed up' by the Reagan camp, one cannot forget the
fact that it was Carter's policies which LEAD to the
Embassy takeover in the first place...

   Again, someone who has to take a significant amount of
   blame for his own downfall...which, in fact, he does,
   based on an interview with him I heard a few months ago.

So, that about covers the two Democratic presidents whom could reasonably
fit the bill of those you feel have been the victim of some sort of
rightwing vendetta...

But that only takes us 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda.

I wouldn't say that...they consistently defended and 'covered for' Reagan
and Bush, too...

It's more a matter of not wanting to be 'locked out of the loop' by the
current administration, no matter WHO is in power nor the party they are
affiliated with...and so we no longer get JOURNALISM asking hard-hitting
questions, but REPORTING which utilizes blown-dried heads talking fluff
pieces (like Katie Couric at the White House this past week, on the very
day the President's council was to go before the House Judiciary
Committee, talking with Bill and Hill about the WH Christmas tree, how
'lovely' Hillary's dress was, a dress which apparantly got Hill a Vogue
cover shot...asking the Prez what the holiday season meant to him, how
was the First Family going to spend Christmas, etc. etc. -- hardly 'hard
hitting journalism', and hardly an example of what Marilyn claims is the
media's vendetta against the Clinton's)...


Yes, it is surprising that the polls say this - if they are legitimate.
Actually the most frightening element would be the possibility that these
polls might indeed be true, which would prove that our society has finally
devolved literally into "the ignorant masses."

It hasn't 'devolved' into ignorant masses...it always has been.  It's the
rare citizen who has actually read the Constitution and Bill of Rights,
let alone UNDERSTANDS them...and you will find more Americans find
politics 'boring' than not...hence, someone who doesn't read a newspaper
(most Americans don't), perhaps gets their news via radio during the
morning commute, and would rather watch a repeat of Seinfeld than CSPAN,
are NOT going to have a clear idea of what exactly the term 'impeachment
means'...a confusion which the Democrats are exploiting...

You will find that most of the polls are either conducted by the media --
which we have shown is strongly in the Clinton camp -- or by pollsters
hired by the Democrats themselves

Hardly objective...

Especially since we don't see the ACTUAL questions the pollsters ask when
they call a person...it's been reported that in some cases, a preliminary
question along the lines of 'Who did you vote for in the last election?'
or 'Are you a Democrat, Republican, or unaffiliated?', or a blatant 'Do
you support President Clinton?' is asked...and any answer which implies
the answerer is not already a firm supporter, or at least leaning in that
direction, garners a polite 'thank you for your time', and is hung up on,
without the question regarding impeachment being asked.

I haven't seen any poll where it was first determined that the person
being polled even understood what impeachment really is.

And I'd like to see the RAW DATA garnered by such polls, instead of the
'spin' put on those numbers...as anyone who's taken a basic statistics
course, it's easy to 'massage' data to imply whatever conclusion one
wishes...

As Mark Twain once opined:  "There are lies...there are damned lies...
and then there are statistics!"


I would not argue that
"neither the Congressional majority nor the media care a fig what the
electorate wants," but in fairness, and in the interest of accuracy, I would
have to add that neither does the congressional minority.

I would hope that both the Congressional majority, AND the Congressional
minority, would operate from their own conscious, and NOT based on public
opinion polls.


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
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 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Che wrote:
If you don't believe the polls, try crawling out of your troll cave
sometime and asking your fellow citizens how they feel about the subject.

First off, Che, I don't seem to remember seeing you post to this list
before, so I assume you are a new list member.

Try reading the statement which gets automatically appended to every post
to the list, especially regarding respect to others.

We endeavor to remain polite, even when disagreeing with someone...there
is no room for such 'flamebait' as your 'crawling out of your troll cave'
statement above...if you have something of worth to say, say it -- it
should be able to stand on its own merits and not need 'flamebait'...

Anyways, in answer to your question, yes I HAVE asked/discussed this
directly with people I know -- and have found the majority don't even
know what impeachment really is...and that when it is explained to them,
they then usually support impeachment.  Which is why I expect the polls
are reflecting an ignorance of what impeachment really is, rather than
what the public really wants...


I had an interesting conversation w/ some coworkers at the company
Christmas party tonite.  First there was a discussion about how Clinton's
sexual peccadillos were nothing compared to Bush's involvement in the both
the SL  Iran/Contra scandals.  Then we discussed Bush's ties w/ C I A
drug running.  A coworker and his wife from Texas acted like the Bush/C I
A/drug connection was common knowledge.  I can hardly characterize them as
being a part of "the ignorant masses".

If you are all so knowledgable regarding Bush/Iran-Contra/CIA/drug
running, then "Mena, Arkansas" should be meaningful to you...

And just WHO was governor of Arkansas at the time?


The irony is that Carter is probably the last honorable man that will serve
as president (honorable relative to other presidents, that is, I know about
Jimmy's dirty laundry).  It's hard to find anyone that thinks he was a good
president (myself included), yet he is to this day a decent human being.

Yes...how many other ex-Presidents do you find climbing up on a ladder in
the hot summer sun to swing a hammer, helping to build houses for Habitat
for Humanity...I daresay you won't see Clinton doing so, either...


I do not for a minute think Clinton is an innocent choirboy.  But I'd
prefer that he be given the benefit of the protections afforded by our
Constitution and the laws of the land.

Uhhh...then I suggest you read Article I, Sections 2  3, and Article II,
Section 4, of the U.S. Constitution, and then come back here and discuss
what IS and is not, constitutional...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
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*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Y2K Martial Law US and Canada

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Bennett (R-Utah), chair of the Senate's Y2K committee, has asked the
US military of its plans for martial law in the event of Year 2000
disruptions.

Declan McCullagh has temporarily placed the transcript of that June 1998
hearing online.

His article:
  http://www.well.com/user/declan/y2k/martiallaw.0698.txt
The transcript:
  http://www.well.com/user/declan/y2k/senate.y2k.0698.txt
"Inter arma silent leges."

*
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/national/981212/2098082.html
'Martial law' rushed for Y2K chaos

Report warns government to be ready to invoke federal Emergencies Act
Saturday 12 December 1998
   David Pugliese

The Ottawa Citizen

The federal government should consider invoking the Emergencies Act,
   the successor to the War Measures Act, if the millennium bug causes
   widespread chaos, according to newly obtained government documents.
   The report, by the Year 2000 contingency planning group of Emergency
   Preparedness Canada, calls for orders and regulations for the
   Emergencies Act to be ready by the end of March. [...]

"Among the activities that must be done to meet the problems resulting
   from Y2000 failures is development of relevant emergency orders and
   regulations required for the invocation of emergency provisions under
   the Emergencies Act." [...]

In the reports, military officials also raise concern that their
   ability to help out if the millennium bug causes widespread problems
   relies heavily on Canada's electrical, transportation, food and water
   and sewage systems having their own Year 2000 problems under control:

"The ability of the (Canadian Forces) to provide civil assistance is
   highly dependent on the state of preparedness of these infrastructure
   items since the CF, like everyone else, is highly dependent on smooth
   delivery of these supplies and services," the documents state.

"Without aggressive action in these industrial and service sectors,
   the (Canadian Forces) may not be able to make a significant impact
   across the nation as a force of last resort."

  Military officials point out that more than 16,000 troops were needed
   to deal with the effects of the ice storm that hit Ontario and Quebec
   this year. But the millennium bug, the report states, "has the
   potential of creating a demand orders of magnitude greater than this,
   which are well beyond the CF's capability to respond." [...]

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do you actually think the press is "right wing?"  You think the media is in
bed with Ken Starr?

I've never heard one mainstream media pundit say anything supportive of
Starr...if anything, they consistently present him as 'strange',
'dogmatic', 'driven', 'fanatical'...


Starr and Clinton are buddies, Starr is saving Clinton's
butt by not bringing up charges of treason for accepting bribes from the Red
Chinese in the form of campaign donations.

And other matters...

But I suspect the vehemence against Starr is due more to the fact that
Clinton and his camp expected Starr to be a knee-jerk butt-kisser, and
have been surprised that he's shown a measure of independence from
them...of course, this doesn't mean that Starr may not be kissing someone
ELSE's butt, and is serving THEIR agenda...

But the end result is that the Clintonistas have been surprised that
everything wasn't swept under the rug...but I suspect that Starr focused
on the 'easy' subject of Clinton's sexual escapades, a subject easily
understood by the American public, sure to garner 'OJ Clinton' type
coverage by the media, and hard for Congress to ignore...

I suspect Starr's strategy was to hand Congress an 'easy' matter to
investigate, basically washing his hands of the harder and dirtier stuff,
leaving that for Congress to deal with, if they so choose...an 'iffy'
proposition, since a lot of that dirt is squarely on many members of
Congress, too...

So the Lewinsky scandal gives them an 'out' to investigate, and possibly
remove the president from office, charges which are solely on Clinton,
and wouldn't lead into areas that could be very embarassing, to say the
least, for some of those in Congress...

June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust

[Hilary Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

Together We Create Heaven on Earth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Saturday, December 12, 1998 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust


 -Caveat Lector-

You sure project your personal feelings to many people you haven't even
spoken
too.

Straight dweebism.

What's your agenda?

Om
K

In a message dated 12/12/98 8:14:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I never said that YOU said or implied the collective guilt of the
enumerated
parties.

I said that the enumerated parties perceive "the Holocaust" to be a
conscious
and premeditated campaign to insinuate or overtly assign guilt to them.

If you don't think that  is the case, then YOU have got some missionary
work
to do to
convince the enumerated parties that the "the Holocaust" isn't just a
campaign of
psychological aggression intended to shame or humiliate them into acceding
to
someone else's political agenda.


DBC


Damian,

In your conversations, there are two themes that continue to emerge - that
of guilt also phrased as shame or humiliation, and secondly, that very shame
being used as leverage to force an individual to do something.

Much has been written on the psychological aftermath concerning what
happened in W.W.II in Europe as with other wars and conquered peoples.

As an American, I experience this phenomena steming from what happened to
the indigenous people and the black community (slavery) and it will still be
many generations before all of these issues are finally resolved.  Events of
this magnitude take centuries to resolve within a culture - even longer if
the "injured" people remain isolated from the larger community.

I grew up outside of Washington, D.C. (where there are many large black
communities) and I now live in the Southwest near several Indian
reservations.  The communities are different - the dynamics are the same.  I
have seen extreme behavior on both sides (white and non-white) in coping
with these dynamics.  These behaviors from the white population range from
shouldering the entire "blame" and loosing themselves in platitudes and
servitude to militant opposition and blatant hate campaigns.  The behaviors
I've observed from the non-white population range from submission with deep
resentment and hatred to playing on the guilty feelings some have and trying
to get "away" with everything they possibly can.  These extreme behaviors
will continue until a balance, or rather, as resolution is finally reached.

The decision on the Anne Frank diary is likely an extreme move - a cultural
adjustment.  There have been many prior to this and there will be many more.
It may not be to your liking - in which case write your letters of protest
however, from a larger perspective it is a predictable and inevitable course
of action by a society attempting to find equilibrium.

Hilary

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 6:41:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


snip a lot of good stuff


 If it were you or me who was being brought up on these charges we would be
 imprisoned, fined, possibly tortured... we would be decimated, but not
 Clinton.  Can you actually provide evidence that Clinton had illegal
wiretaps?
 Was Clinton illegally detained without legal representation?   I don't think
 so.  The Constitution has not been interpreted conservatively for a century
or
 longer.  Clinton ignores the Constitution, and acts as a dictator most of the
 time.

 Regards,
 Bob Stokes 


Bob your comments exactly reflect mine.  There is a cronyism that is in
effect, one that guarantees that Clinton will not be tried for the REAL crimes
he has committed because there are other people involved that would also lose
out.  Sure people may not like the whole thing (though I am aware of MANY
people who are fed up with him and his continuous lieing and want him gone
even if it is "all about sex" as some claim) but most of the people are
completely oblivious to the real crimes; the chinese encryption transfer, the
computer transfer, the satellite deals, the COSCO deal, etc. . .  It is my
belief that if any of this got out widely then the vote for impeachment would
be a done deal.  It won'tr of course 'cause Ken Starr and his other buddies
are just as dirty and this needs to be kept under the covers.
Teo1000

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

[CTRL] Fwd: Call from Chile:Y2K: Many Government/Hollywood Insiders Relocating ...

[RoadsEnd]

More fuel to the fire?
Om
K
-






VERY interesting, IF true!!!  Ought to be a way to check!?  This guy is wound
tight, but he's provided a LOT of good info re: CODEX!


Subj:A Call from Chile:Y2K: Many Government and Hollywood Insiders
Relocating to Patagonia
Date:   98-12-11 12:32:00 EST
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hammell)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

IAHF List:

I just had a call today from Ron Modra of Vitamigos S.A., a small vitamin
manufacturer in Santiago, Chile who is in the midst of a court battle to try
to save health freedom in Chile.  I'll have more on this situation in a
seperate message as I'm waiting for a fax from Ron who is not on the internet.
This message, however is a Y2K Message to Americans and people all over the
world, from Ron in Chile:

Ron knows a former high-level CIA intelligence officer who is currently
looking for land in Patagonia, the vast, largely unpopulated area in southern
Chile, due to concerns about y2k possibly triggering nuclear war as well as
widespread infrastructure collapse.

Ron's friend has been down to Patagonia where a huge building boom is underway
due to massive y2k relocation to the area by Hollywood millionaires, high
level government officials and former government officials, and other wealthy
people who have inside knowledge of whats going on vis a vis y2k and the New
World Order...

Henry Kissinger and Jane Fonda are among the people who have bought huge
tracts of land (100 hectares and even bigger) in Patagonia where bulldozers
are busy building roads and builders are hard at work building elaborate y2k
retreats... The former CIA officer doesn't like a lot of the Hollywood crowd,
so is looking for land far away from where they've been buying it because he
doesn't want them as neighbors.

PENTAGON ISSUES FALSE Y2K COMPLIANCE REPORTS

The November 26th issue of USA Today had this to say about falsified y2k
compliance reports coming from the Pentagon:
 "The Pentagon office respondible for safety and security of U.S. nuclear
stockpiles and emergency response in a nuclear incident acknowledged
falsifying readiness reports on the looming Year 2000 computer problem."

The article notes that Sen.Bennett (R-UT) Chair of the Senates Y2K Committee
of the government says they "all lie to us about Y2K," but he is thankful
that, "there aren't as many people lying to us as there used to be."

MY PLANS WHAT ARE *YOURS*???

Tomorrow, I am traveling to a very remote place somewhere on the N.American
continent to consider it as a place to relocate to away from Miami.  It is
very far from any military targets, it sits atop a huge aquifier so there's
enough water, there's very good mineral rich soil, very low population, lots
of fish and game, and plenty of wood to burn in a wood stove.  I hope to be
relocated before Apri,l because I anticipate that a bank run will begin in
April in Japan, Canada, the UK and NY State at that time, and that a bank run
will be in full swing all over the USA by May.  The fiscal year for 2000 for
Japan, Canada, UK and NY State begins on April 1, of 1999, and the fiscal year
of 46 other states begins on July 1, but once the bank run begins in NY
State... (along with Japan, Canada, UK) it's likely to be triggered world
wide

ARE YOU IN DENIAL???  WAKE UP  YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH TIME...

I've been talking about this problem for a long time.  Some people on the IAHF
list don't want me to discuss it because they are in denial, and feel that it
detracts from my discussing health freedom issues.  What I've been trying to
explain to all of you for a long time now is that there isn't going to be an
FDA much longer, or an America, or a Canada, or a UK, or any other country.
What there IS going to be is chaos, CHAOS on a profound scale, and a lot of
people are going to die -- possibly as many as 2/3rds of the world's
population.

Are you going to be one of the survivors?  Where do you live?  Do you live in
or near a big city?  If so, you'd better either move, or make contingency
plans to have enough food and water on hand and a way to go to the bathroom
when the electricity goes down and sewage treatment plants aren't working.
Some people on this list have accused me of being an "alarmist."  That's fine.
If that's the way you think, you show me the months of research YOU'VE done on
this issue through which you purport to refute what I'm saying...

DOWNLOAD THESE PAPERS AND FOLLOW THE LINKS

If anyone on this list hasn't yet downloaded and read either my white paper on
y2k or Will Thomas', you may want to go to the IAHF website at iahf.com and go
to the millenium bug section.  Will also has an updated version of his paper
which you can get from him for a nominal fee.  I also urge you to follow the
links to additional websites which Will and I provide.  Don't take our word
for ANYTHING.  Do your own research and draw your own conclusions... we have,
and we're taking this very seriously... just as many government and 

[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] Re: Conversations with M.Dagobert 12/12/98

[RoadsEnd]

From: Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Large scale mining does not need the sizable operations you claim, if the
vein
is subterranean and pure

This much of M. Dagobert's reply is absolutely plausible. Nature's richest
underground precious metals deposits are native gold found in quartz vugs
(cavities).  These free-standing masses of pure metal approach 24 carat and
take the form of crystals, wires, fern-like formations, etc.  Many examples
of this type of deposit can be found in museums, rock shops and private
collections all over the American west and elsewhere.

Legends persist of the above-described gold deposits having been formed on
a monumental scale in certain locations.  Large cavities (even caverns)
containing huge masses of gold that could be "harvested" by the ton
underground.  No "mining" per se, and no surface disturbance of any kind,
other than perhaps a small portal or cavern entrance to access the
subterranean site.  Under radical circumstances such as these, a small
group of workers could quite conceivably amass and store an enormous
treasure with no one on the "outside" aware of it (particularly if the
vicinity was relatively remote to begin with).  Out of sight - out of mind.

By the way, legends of fabulous "lost" (or should we say "secret"?) natural
gold deposits persist in many locations around the world.  Most of the
early exploration of the New World by the Spanish and others during the
16th century was in pursuit of such legends.  People are still trying to
locate these sites.  With respect to M. Dagobert's claims, I suppose one
could research the mineralization of southern France to establish if such a
potential exists there and evaluate his story based upon the evidence. Of
course, such an exercise would be a waste of time because, whatever the
odds, remember the first rule of gold mining: gold is where you find it.

Regards,
Steve C.


At last! The perfect gifts for baseball fans...or anyone. Merchandise from
the Sonoma County Crushers, champions of the Western Baseball League (USA).
Go to http://www.icatmall.com/crushers

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 7:50:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Carter's policies which LEAD to the
Embassy takeover in the first place...

I believe the record shows that Carter and US government resisited the shahs
entry into the US. Intel said if shah entered US, there would be uncotrollable
disturbances. David Rockefeller went and got the shah and personally escorted
him into the us, the students 'rioted' and the rest 'they' call history . . .

Orchestration all the way.

Generally in newsrooms you have a perponderence of democrats, -- just as in
the general population . . .duh! The ownership is almost 100% percent
republican and there is no true debate in the media. There is no true
discussion, it is a controlled parameterial debate. Left-wing is only visible
at boston market.

Om
K

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] OEN 12/13/98

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
A HREF="http://www.aci.net/kalliste/"The Home Page of J. Orlin Grabbe/A
-





Impeachment Watch

Speaker-Elect Supports Impeachment, Vows to Block Censure

Livingston makes up his mind

WASHINGTON -- The battle lines over allowing the House to censure
President Clinton rather than impeach him hardened sharply Saturday, as
Representative Robert L. Livingston, the Speaker-designate, vowed to
block such a move and White House allies promised to take the fight to
the American public.
Livingston shed his ambiguity on the issue moments after the House
Judiciary Committee rejected censure as an alternative, and the panel's
chairman, Henry J. Hyde, urged House Republican leaders to keep it off
the floor, saying such a move would threaten the separation of powers
between the legislative and executive branches.

In revealing his position, Livingston said that he strongly supported
impeachment and that censure was not envisioned by the Constitution's
founders.

"Censure is out of the realm of responsibility of the House of
Representatives," Livingston said before flying back to Washington from
Louisiana Saturday.

"We have a constitutional responsibility to charge or not charge,
impeach or not impeach."

Nonetheless, President Clinton's supporters mounted a full-scale
campaign to force Livingston to reverse course, aiming to build public
support for an alternative to impeachment and to put a glaring spotlight
on Livingston's ability to cope with his newly won leadership duties.

The Democratic challenge, already facing long odds before Saturday, now
confronts a unified House Republican leadership, bolstered by the
arguments offered by Hyde, which are likely to influence many undecided
Republicans.

Only a strong, vocal protest from several moderate Republicans who
oppose impeachment could force Livingston to reverse course at this late
hour, censure supporters say. And up to now, any Republican who has
openly opposed impeachment or supported censure has been hammered
mercilessly by conservative groups and right-wing talk radio.

Representative Tom DeLay, the Republican whip and a fierce critic of
Clinton, fears that allowing a censure vote would siphon votes from
impeachment.

Recognizing this dynamic, the President's allies Saturday tried to begin
gathering the broad public support for censure to give moderate
Republicans the political cover they need to openly challenge their
leadership.

But White House allies voiced worries that it would be hard to rouse a
public distracted by the holiday season, even though opinion polls are
running hard against impeachment.

Moments after the Judiciary Committee voted out a fourth article of
impeachment, Democrats on the panel gave an impassioned argument for a
censure alternative that condemns the President's "reprehensible
conduct" and leaves open the possibility that Clinton could face
"criminal and civil penalties" after leaving office.

It does not call for a fine.

"If you want to punish the President or brand the President with scarlet
letters or stamp him on the forehead, censure is the way to do it," said
Representative Martin Meehan, a Massachusetts Democrat.

To buttress their case, Democrats underscored the gravity of an
impeachment vote, by arguing that casting such a vote explicitly urges
the President's removal.

"This is not sending to the Senate a questionnaire," said Representative
Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat. "This is a statement the
President should be thrown out."

Several Democrats sought to put pressure on Livingston.

Representative John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, the ranking Democrat on the
committee, conceded that the censure resolution would fail in committee
(it did, 22 to 14), but focused on its chances on the House floor.

"We will practice our arguments Saturday and prepare them for a larger
presentation," Conyers said. "My hope is on the untested Speaker-elect,
Bob Livingston."

Republicans on the panel rejected the censure resolution as
unconstitutional, a bad precedent and feckless.

In a letter to Livingston and Speaker Newt Gingrich released moments
after the committee adjourned, Hyde said "a resolution or amendment
proposing censure of the President in lieu of impeachment violates the
rules of the House, threatens the separation of powers, and fails to
meet constitutional muster."

Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican, said the
President's crimes were too serious for censure. "This President mocks
the Congress, and this censure is exactly what this President wants," he
said in debate Saturday.

"He will take this as a vindication of his mocking and we should not
give it to him."

As committee Democrats began their frontal assault, the House Democratic
leader, Representative Richard A. Gephardt, appealed in a letter to
Livingston to allow a censure vote on the House floor.

Gephardt's 

[CTRL] Clinton Agonistics

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
- Volume 2 Issue 42/A
The Laissez Faire City Times
December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
-
Clinton Agonistics

by Zola


US President-in-Weighing William Jefferson Clinton said it all depends
on the meaning of what "is" is, and I can affirm, following Maxine
Waters (D-USA) in her statement to the House Judiciary Committee, that I
too is of sound mind, but I'm not sure the President also is. According
to news reports, he blew up when his media appendage Whorealdo Rivera
quoted from Clinton's own latest neo-grovel missive on national
television, Thursday night, Dec. 10, before he--Clinton--had even seen
it. Clinton was so steamed he went wandering around Washington, D.C.,
drinking a can of diet Coke in the winter air next morning, and the D.C.
police had to block off several streets for the President's caffeinated,
but non-fattening stroll. Finally, however, he returned to the White
House dungeon, yielded to his handlers (who were standing by with
straight jackets), went on T.V. all by himself (bumping into a White
House column on the way to the Rose Garden podium), and again denied
criminality even as the House Judiciary Committee was voting out
Articles of Impeachment.

Clinton said he hadn't done anything wrong, but he was sure sorry about
it. Paul McNulty, speaking for the House Judiciary Committee, was
unimpressed: "Even in his most recent apology, the President continues
to deny the serious criminal acts of perjury, obstruction of justice,
and witness tampering he has committed and to rely on technical legal
arguments advanced by his attorneys."

But Clinton, much like a teenage boy who has had a fight with his
girlfriend and so goes tooling down the highway well over the speed
limit, had already decided the appropriate response to the House
Judiciary Committee was to put himself and his royal entourage in danger
by traveling to the Middle East, to Israel, to be guarded by 15,000
Israeli policemen, 500 of them surrounding the Jerusalem Hilton where he
and his political aide Hillary would be staying. Presumably, he left the
football--the briefcase with the Gold Codes for starting nuclear war--at
home, even assuming that his handlers had not once again removed that
little baby entirely from the reach of the president's stubby and
impeachable fingers.

Don't fear, Clinton is being well-monitored. The Jerusalem Hilton is of
sufficiently recent construction that the Mossad was able to bug all the
rooms from the foundation up. But some of the time the Clintons are out
on the move--he in a kaffiyeh, she in a yarmulke-- about the land,
rebuilding Solomon's Temple, bringing down plagues from heaven, touring
the nuclear facilities at Dimona, and lighting a
condom-and-foreskin-laden Christmas tree at the Church of the Nativity
in Bethlehem. Some ungrateful Israelis have displayed signs: "Clinton go
home." This is the second stage of the Peace Process of the Wye River
agreement, during which Clinton and Netanyahu each seek to undermine the
other's position, as they suddenly realise their personal interests are
diametrically opposed.

Meanwhile, Hillary was particularly miffed that Rep. Steve Chabot
(R-Ohio) voted for Articles of Impeachment "for the children of this
nation," claiming that he had stolen her line supporting the other side.
Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) said, however, she opposed "Article I
of the Constitution," while Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass) noted "this
is a capital case; this case involves the death penalty," letting escape
the fervent hope of the Democrats of what will ensue during Clinton's
Middle East peace trip. Such a capital solution would put a clean end to
this whole impeachment business, with tearful widow Hillary left to
scarf up votes of sympathy and launch her own political career--for the
children, of course.

In his Rose Garden neo-grovel, Clinton begged for "censure and rebuke,"
and hence should be gratified that impending impeachment by the full
House of Representatives could serve in both capacities, though not, of
course, as effectively as would subsequent conviction by the Senate and
removal from office. Clinton admitted it was "hard to hear yourself
called deceitful and manipulative," but anything Congress would do
"would pale in comparison to the consequences of the pain I have caused
my family. There is no greater agony." Hillary was, of course, there at
his side, the tears rolling down her face--oops, actually she was on the
opposite side of the country, in San Francisco, touring the Conservatory
of Flowers, showing (as the Associate Press put it) "no hint of any
emotion concerning the crisis back home as she basked in the goodwill
evident in this traditionally Democratic city." Pain? What pain? An
upbeat Hillary was picking out rare plants with which to decorate her
late husband's grave 

[CTRL] Smoking Settlements Lead to Hypocrisy, Greed, and a Shortness of Liberty

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
- Volume 2 Issue 42/A
The Laissez Faire City Times
December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
-
LIBERTARIAN'S WARNING
Smoking Settlements Lead to Hypocrisy,
Greed, and a Shortness of Liberty
by Craig Goodrich


In 1521, less than thirty years after Columbus' first voyage, a young
officer arrived fresh from Spain to take command of the garrison on the
Caribbean island of Borinquen. Like most fresh young officers throughout
history, he was a great believer in discipline and in doing things
strictly by the book, so he was scandalized to discover that his men had
adopted the natives' practice of inhaling the smoke of burning tobacco
leaves. He ordered that they stop at once.

The next day his First Sergeant, as most First Sergeants throughout
history have done, explained the facts of life to the new CO: the men
couldn't stop, and he was risking mutiny unless the order was rescinded.
Luckily the young officer relented, his men continued to smoke, and the
fortress overlooking San Juan harbor eventually became one of Spain's
most important strategic outposts in the New World.

More than 400 years later, a bunch of gringo politicians and lawyers
were shocked -- shocked -- to discover that nicotine was addictive.







In 1670, the pioneering Dutch anatomist Kerckring described his
autopsies of heavy smokers:
The tongue of the cadaver is black and gives off an odor of poison; the
trachea is coated with soot, like a cooking pot; the lungs are dried-out
and almost friable. The corpse gives the overall impression that someone
had lit a fire among the organs.
In 1761, physician John Hill of London published a clinical study of
tobacco use, concluding that snuff users are vulnerable to cancers of
the nose.

In 1795, physician Sammuel von Soemmering of Maine wrote that cancers of
the lip occur primarily among pipe smokers.

In 1821, the French Dictionnaire des Sciences Medicales mentioned "the
corrosive action of tobacco on the tissues" and recommended that its
medical use be severely limited and carefully supervised.

In 1836, Samuel Green wrote in the New England Almanack and Farmer's
Friend that tobacco is "an insecticide, a poison, a filthy habit," and
that it "can kill a man."

In 1897, the Supreme Court of Tennessee upheld the state's total ban on
the sale of cigarettes, finding smoking to be "wholly noxious and
deleterious to health."

Nearly 100 years later, a bunch of politicians and lawyers were shocked
-- shocked -- to discover that smoking was bad for one's health.







Of all the innumerable public hypocrisies of this decade -- which bids
fair to be remembered as "The Hypocritical '90s" anyway -- the recent
settlement between the tobacco industry and the Attorneys General of the
various States is clearly a standout. Even the Clinton White House would
be hard-pressed to match either the mendacity of the states' rhetoric or
the incredible arrogance and greed which that rhetoric is covering up.

The ostensible rationale for the settlement is to reimburse the states
for the cost of treating smoking-related illnesses covered by Medicare.
But this is ridiculous:
•First, it makes the assumption that if these patients hadn't been
smokers, no Medicare funds would have been spent on them. But everybody
dies of something; if not lung cancer, emphysema, or heart disease this
year, then prostate or colon cancer, liver disease, or just "old age" a
few years hence. Economists have estimated that smokers actually save
 Medicare funds by premature death, which reduces expenditure on nursing
homes, invalid care, and the like.
•Second, the public treasury is already raking in loads of loot from
smokers. For example, Florida, which initiated this entire shakedown,
claims that it spends nearly $300 million annually on smoking-related
diseases. But Florida takes in more than $1.6 billion annually in
tobacco taxes -- five times its medical expenses. Total cigarette taxes
average 53 cents a pack nationally, and even the lowest-tax state
(Virginia) takes in more than twice as much in tobacco taxes as it
spends on the medical care of smokers.

And, by the way, who is forcing the states to pay for medical care for
smokers, anyway? The tobacco companies? Nope. It's the Federal
Government. So if the states don't like paying these costs, their
quarrel is with Washington, not with the industry.




Another reason advanced for the settlement's draconian terms is to
punish the Evil Tobacco Companies for lying to the public about the
health hazards of smoking.


Come now: Since 1964, every pack sold in the US has carried a prominent
warning about the 

[CTRL] The Adventures of Jonathan Gullible: an interview with Ken Schoolland

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
- Volume 2 Issue 42/A
The Laissez Faire City Times
December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
-
The Adventures of Jonathan Gullible:

an interview with Ken Schoolland

by Alberto Mingardi


Ken Schoolland is the author of the free-market bestseller The
Adventures of Jonathan Gullible, which has been translated into several
languages--including Russian, Dutch, Norwegian, Lithuanian, Romanian and
Serbian. The book, which began as a radio series on KHVH in Hawaii, was
first published in 1988, received the George Washington Honor Medal in
1990, and was described by Karl Hess (the influential libertarian and
former ghost-author of Goldwater's speeches) as "a fine book for
promoting free market ideas for young people". A second revised edition
of this beautiful free market odyssey became available in 1995.

Schoolland completed his graduate studies at Georgetown University, and
served as an international economist in the US International Trade
Commission, the US Department of Commerce, and the Office of the Special
Representative for Trade Negotiations. Leaving government, Scholland
began teaching economics. His first book was Shogun's Ghost: The Dark
Side of Japanese Education, written after a period in which he taught at
Hakodate University, in Japan. He is presently an Associate Professor of
Economics and Political Science at Hawaii Pacific University.





How did you get the idea for your book The Adventures of Jonathan
Gullible? And what are the reasons for its success?

As an international economist in Washington D.C., I saw the folly of
government. Its every action was to get in the way of people who were
trying to improve life through the marketplace. So I left government and
began to teach economics in Alaska. Eventually I stumbled across the
libertarian philosophy which clarified my own thinking and shaped the
direction of my teaching. When I moved to Hawaii I began delivering 90
second radio commentaries on a local business station and was a little
discouraged that my radical free market ideas were generating no
response. I was dating a girl at the time who enjoyed theater and so I
prepared a fantasy dialog with her that was patterned after the
adventures of a children's book, The Little Prince. I was surprised at
the positive response this series had, even among businessmen. Having a
good laugh was the best way to hear new ideas.

One of these businessmen was Sam Slom, President of Small Business
Hawaii, a coalition of 5000 small business owners in Hawaii that is
always lobbying for business causes. Sam offered to publish the book as
an educational publication of their organization. So I edited the
material, found an illustrator, and helped distribute the book. I used
it in my university economics classes and the students loved it. Even
more surprising was the universality of this approach. It seems that
liberals in Common Cause and conservatives in the Christian Coalition
were all getting enthused about the book and handing out to their
friends. People don't like having ideas crammed down their throats, but
they do love ideas that are subtle, thought provoking, and humorous.

In your landmarks, you've inserted Lao-Tzu. What's the importance of his
thought for libertarianism?

My university in Hawaii has students from 91 countries, many of whom are
from Asia. It was important to me that these students realize that the
ideas of freedom are universal. Indeed, it is fun for my Asian students
to know that profound advocates of limited government existed in China
long before Adam Smith. Lao Tzu's ideas were probably successful for
much the same reason: he was subtle, thought provoking, and even
humorous. My libertarian ideas originated from Western thought, but it
is fair to say that they were confirmed by Eastern.

Speaking a little about Ken Scholland the man, not the writer. How do
you approach the basic ideas behind Terra Libertas?

In the back of the book I state my philosophy. It rests on the principle
of self ownership. To deny that is to accept slavery, that someone else
has a claim on your life. This idea has been challenged by both
Christian and nihilist friends and relatives--both of whom I respect. In
summary, the first group says that you don't own your life, but God
does. To which I reply that even God would allow you a choice on that,
He doesn't force the decision. The second group says that ownership is a
matter of might. To which I reply that a brute is shortsighted, and even
self- destructive, to believe that. A life worth pursuing exists so long
as there is a distinction between might and right. The debate is
endless, but I state my premises.

"This idea has been challenged by both Christian and nihilist friends
and relatives--both of whom I 

[CTRL] Travel in Vietnam: Hoi An

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
- Volume 2 Issue 42/A
The Laissez Faire City Times
December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
-
Travel in Vietnam: Hoi An

by Richard S. Ehrlich
Asia Correspondent


HOI AN, Vietnam -- A covered, Japanese bridge connects this jewelbox
town to a glorious past. Nestled on the coast of central Vietnam, the
15th century port of Hoi An was a bustling trade center populated by
wealthy merchants who built proud homes with teak pillars.

At its zenith during the 17th and 18th centuries, when Hoi An was one of
the busiest and most prestigious ports along Vietnam's coast, ships
brought treasures from Japan, China and elsewhere.

Pagodas, temples and shrines were erected to give thanks to deities and
ancestors who smiled upon Hoi An from the heavens above.

But 100 years ago, dreams of a permanent place on the crossroads of
commerce and culture suddenly vanished.

What happened to those rich residents who splurged constructing the
bridge, the teak houses, and other lavish architecture?

The sad truth is they suddenly decided to change their address to a
newer, bigger port, just 20 miles north up the road, called Danang.
Little did they realize their move from Hoi An would seal the town in a
time-warp, preserving the way the port evolved, one century ago.
Hoi An History

Archeologists discovered ceramics dating back 2,200 years ago in and
around Hoi An, indicating fishermen and farmers originally dwelt here.
From about the year 200 to the mid-900s, Hoi An was part of the mighty
Champa Kingdom. Ancient Persian and Arab texts praised Hoi An as an
excellent place for ships to secure fresh provisions. After Vietnamese
military offensives ousted the Champas, Hoi An continued as an important
river port.
Vietnam's first major relationship with the western world occurred
nearby, in 1516, when Portuguese sailors came ashore at Danang. A decade
later, Catholic missionaries followed, and began trying to convert the
region's population. In the mid-1500s, Hoi An's main street, Le Loi, was
built.

As Hoi An's reputation grew, it became an opulent town.

Residents ploughed profits into stately homes adorned by balconies,
curved rooftops, and delicate woodwork. Some people opted for
French-style shutters and grand porticos.

Investment and a competitive form of displaying one's status, quickly
produced a town rich in cultural and artistic merit.

Typhoons strong enough to sink ships were good news to Hoi An. Vessels
packed with expensive goods would seek its shelter during storms.
Sea-faring Chinese, Thai, Dutch, Portuguese, British, French, and
Japanese merchants were eager to do business with the port's Vietnamese,
who were able to resupply their ships, swap goods, and provide other
services for anyone engaged in long-haul, import-export traffic.

Hoi An also offered fine quality, local silk and other fabric, plus
delicate blue-and-white porcelain, ivory, mother-of-pearl, lacquer, and
foodstuffs such as tea, sugar, areca nuts and pepper.

Seasonal winds which blow across the South China Sea made Hoi An an
ideal stopover between northern and southeast Asia. During the spring,
winds pushed vessels south from Japan and China. The arriving merchants
would stay in the port several weeks, doing business, until summer
arrived.

Then, the winds reversed course and powered the ships northward towards
home. As profits grew, foreign representatives working for Japanese and
Chinese traders, set up residence in Hoi An to work full-time.

By the 1600s, Japanese buildings appeared in the southern "Japanese
quarter" along the river.

The covered bridge was built in the 17th century by proud Japanese
traders to cross a small tributary which flows into the river.

Fifty years afterwards, a "Cantonese quarter" evolved nearby, inspiring
temples, shrines and pagodas to honor Chinese gods and goddesses favored
by sailors and fishermen from southern China's Fukien coast.

In 1615, Portuguese Jesuits built the first Christian mission in Vietnam
at Hoi An, along with a mission in Danang and Hanoi.

One of the most famous visitors to Hoi An during the 17th century was
French missionary Alexandre de Rhodes, who created the relatively
easy-to-read, Latin-style script which Vietnamese language still uses.

Escalating feuds during the 18th and 19th centuries, among competing
royal families in and around the nearby imperial city of Hue, eventually
wrecked Hoi An's future. The battles devastated the town in the 1700s.

Though the town was rebuilt, its economy crashed, which in turn caused
its river to silt up due to a lack of funds for dredging. Merchants'
ships could no longer travel from the coast up the river to reach Hoi
An.

Frustrated investors and officials decided it was easier and more secure
to build a new port at Danang -- which the French called Tourane --
especially since Danang's 

[CTRL] Y2K: What's a Reasonable Person to Do?

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
- Volume 2 Issue 42/A
The Laissez Faire City Times
December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
-
Y2K: What's a Reasonable Person to Do?

by Don L. Tiggre


Just about everyone has heard of the year 2000 computer problem (also
called Y2K, or, the Millennium Bug), but no one really knows what will
happen when the clocks tick over to 00:00:01 on January 1, 2000.
Uncertainty notwithstanding, there are some useful Y2K considerations
that reasonable people should consider.

First, they should recognize the uncertainty. There are computer
experts--people who have worked in the field for decades--who are
certain that nothing major will happen. They say that a few businesses
with exceptionally inept management might go under, but the scare
stories are unrealistic and irresponsible.

There are also computer experts--people who have worked in the field for
decades--who are certain that there is simply no way everything that
needs fixing will be fixed on time. They claim there are not enough
people to do the job, even if the money to pay them could be found.

If the experts do not agree, how then should prudent people prepare? Are
those who are stockpiling goods being hysterical, or are those who are
doing nothing burying their heads in the sand?

Uncertainty notwithstanding, much is known about the problem. The very
least people should do is to inform themselves. They should know what it
means that many computers "think" all years are 19-something. They
understand why most businesses and government agencies cannot simply
turn their clocks back to "give them more time." They should be aware
that the problem is almost upon us; many systems use 99 as a null value
and that the fiscal year 2000 will be hitting various organizations
throughout 1999. Most importantly, they should know what kinds of
systems, especially among those they rely on, might be affected.

Even the most skeptical commentators agree that, at the very least, Y2K
will be expensive to fix, and some things will not get fixed on time.
Utah's Senator Bennett, who chairs a US Senate committee on Y2K,
estimates that it will cost $1.4 billion to fix the computers at the
Department of Treasury (not including the IRS, which has tried and
failed repeatedly to update its computer systems) and $600 billion for
all the computers in the world that need fixing. Some estimates for the
global figure run as high as $1.635 trillion-that's more than the US
government's entire budget last year. Except by obtaining loans, this
cost cannot be spread out; the fiscal year 2000 will be upon us in
months. So, the very least that can be forecast is a huge drain on the
economy worldwide, one that has not been planned for by most businesses
and governments. A recession would be a very plausible consequence of a
rapid diversion of funds from production and growth to damage control.

Among the more concerned commentators-by no means the most alarmist-is
Senator Bennett, who believes a recession is all but inevitable. He also
fears that 40 percent or more of the nation's power grid will go down in
the first moments of the year 2000. The consequences of that in itself
are frightening, let alone what could happen to telecommunications and
other critical computer-intensive industries. A single set of power
lines in eastern Canada was brought down by a powerful ice storm last
winter, leaving a million people without electricity during the coldest
months of the year. The impact of nearly half of the US (125 million
people) being without power in January would be difficult to describe
without resorting to fiction--and such a scenario is by no means the
most dire one predicted!

Another consideration that must not be overlooked is the danger arising
from the very attempts to make fixes. In the now-famous "Smith Barney"
mix-up, $19,000,000 were accidentally added to 525,000 financial
management accounts overnight. This was done while expert programmers
were implementing a Y2K fix. The frightening part is that the new
software was thoroughly tested off-line first; the people implementing
the fix obviously thought it would be safe and never dreamed that a ten
trillion dollar error would result. As 1999 gets underway, and the
fiscal year 2000 looms closer and closer, we can reasonably expect such
mistakes to increase in frequency and magnitude of harm done. It is
neither exaggeration nor hysteria to predict that, as
computer-controlled heavy and medical equipment malfunction, the harm
could even be lethal.

So, what does a responsible person do, in addition to informing his or
herself?

People should think about the possibilities and form contingency plans.
This costs very little, and could prove more important than a basement
full of supplies. While it won't be useful for people to bankrupt
themselves buying emergency 

[CTRL] The Siege: PsyOps Movie Prepares U.S. for Martial Law

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
- Volume 2 Issue 42/A
The Laissez Faire City Times
December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
-
The Siege: PsyOps Movie Prepares U.S. for Martial Law

by Uri Dowbenko


The Siege is a slick commercial for the American Police State.

Starting with actual newsclips intermixed with movie footage, a radical
fundamentalist Muslim cleric is taken hostage. President Clinton -- out
of context -- says "I am outraged by it," a speech he made after the
Oklahoma City Bombing. Then he says, "Those who did it must not be
allowed to go unpunished." That was the stump speech for his so-called
Anti-Terrorism Bill, which didn't have a chance of passing before the
Bombing. The mix of "real" newsclips intercut with movie footage -- a
muezzin's calls to prayer and subsequent scenes of slaughter in the
desert -- makes an unsubtle direct correlation between Muslims and
terrorism.

Cut to Manhattan. FBI man Anthony Hubbard (Denzel Washington) has to
deal with a hostage crisis and a bus bomb which turns out to be a ruse.
His partner is Lebanese, an Arab-American named Frank Haddad (Tony
Shalhoub) who is gung-ho and acts as a translator -- until they grab his
kid and put him in the New York Concentration Camp. Understandably that
sours him on the FBI.

Soon enough there's interagency rivalry with CIA woman Elise Kraft
(Annette Bening). She tells the FBI man that "we're on the same team,"
but they both know it's a lie. He tells her "CIA has no charter to
operate domestically." Yuck yuck -- as if that ever kept the CIA from
engaging in criminal activities on US soil.

The subtext of the movie, grounded in real-life history, is that CIA
financed and trained indigenous "rebel" movements around the world, then
unceremoniously betrayed them when US policy changed. The betrayed CIA
"terrorists" then typically returned to US soil becoming pawns in
elaborate spy agency games, which most recently resulted in the New York
World Trade Center Bombing and the Oklahoma City Bombing.

Later, in a flash of realization about her own culpability, the CIA
woman says to Samir (Sami Bouajila), one of the suspected "terrorists":
"Don't tell me we financed your operation?" He smiles disbelievingly at
her naivete.

Disinformation rules in The Siege. Here are the most obvious propaganda
factoids.

1. Demonizing the Militia. Continuing the mainstream-media propaganda,
Denzel Washington asks his fellow feds in the FBI office, "You think
it's militia?" "Not their style," they answer, as if most militas were
capable of "terrorism" without the active participation by undercover
CIA, FBI, or BATF agent provocateurs.

2. Demonizing the Internet. "Everybody on the Internet knows
explosives," says Washington, spreading the lie about how the Internet
is a tool of subversion and therefore must be controlled. Department of
Justice has lobbied long and hard for anti-internet, anti-cryptography
legislation.

3. Demonizing Cash. "Where does a guy like you come up with ten thousand
dollars?" the FBI man berates the Arab suspect, implying that cash
anywhere is immediately suspect. According to US State Propaganda, only
"terrorists" or "money launderers" use cash. This reinforces the
suspicion in moviegoers' minds that only "criminals" would have any
concerns about privacy.

General Devereaux (Bruce Willis) takes over when a state of emergency
and martial law is declared in Manhattan. There's a couple of throwaway
lines -- complete with requisite handwringing -- about Posse Comitatus
-- the law which mandates that US troops can not be used against US
citizens -- and how President Lincoln suspended habeus corpus, an
unchallenged precedent for martial law.

Willis says "We can't go in until the president invokes the War Powers
Act."

Does that mean the country is still operating under war and emergency
powers? Dr. Eugene Schroeder's controversial book Constitution: Fact or
Fiction (Buffalo Creek Press, PO BOx 2424, Cleburne, Texas 76033)
explains this provocative thesis. He says that the reason why the US has
gone downhill, becoming in essence an unconstitutional dictatorship, is
because "since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of
declared National Emergency," according to Senate Report 93-549.

The Siege is really a turf war -- not between gangs -- but between Feds.
It's FBI vs. CIA vs. National Security Council vs. America. The civil
rights context -- Is martial law justified? Under what circumstances? --
is merely window dressing for the real question -- How will the Feds
split up the country?

The movie shows that escalating acts of "terrorism" in America are
eerily similar to the Reichstag Fire in pre-WWII Germany, a rationale
for a totalitarian-state power grab. In America, it would simply be the
pretext for dispensing with that pesky US Constitution altogether.

Willis finally 

[CTRL] Teo: Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Edward Britton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Teo:

Bob your comments exactly reflect mine.  There is a cronyism that is in
effect, one that guarantees that Clinton will not be tried for the REAL
crimes
he has committed because there are other people involved that would also lose
out.  Sure people may not like the whole thing (though I am aware of MANY
people who are fed up with him and his continuous lieing and want him gone
even if it is "all about sex" as some claim) but most of the people are
completely oblivious to the real crimes; the chinese encryption transfer, the
computer transfer, the satellite deals, the COSCO deal, etc. . .  It is my
belief that if any of this got out widely then the vote for impeachment would
be a done deal.  It won'tr of course 'cause Ken Starr and his other buddies
are just as dirty and this needs to be kept under the covers.

Being in general agreement with this statement, I am interested in your
conjecture--apart from cronyism--concerning why there was very little
effort to pursue these issues. It would seem that Starr's efforts would
have yielded a far better result if these had been the primary focus. And
yes, I am aware of the debate over there having been, comparatively, less
evidence regarding "all of the above."

Edward   
[]===[]
 "Go for goats, Bill.  They don't talk." Yasser Arafat
   http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5285/connector1.html
Talk to the planet. Subscribe to Reality Pump:
  http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Reality_Pump2
[]===[]

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Pike's Plan for Three World Wars

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

On 11 Dec 98 , Bill wrote:

  available for scrutiny today.  The letter explains the points of
  'dogma' between the 'true' religion of Lucifer and the 'false'
  religion of Adonay (God), with side-swipes at that 'naive' horror
  Satanism.  Pike cunningly reiterates:

One of Anne Rice's novels--Memnoch, the Devil?--contains an
interesting section in which a Luciferian angel--somewhat like a
Prometheus figure--argues in heaven for Man, while God condemns Man
to Hell for his faults and "sins." I think the gist of Lucifer's
argument is that Man aught not be condemned for the very faults and
flaws that God created within him (Man) and that are endemic to Man's
Being as God created him.

And where does racism fit into Pike's arguments/plan--apart from
being a means to an end (creating chaos) ?


sno0wl

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Lyndon LaRouche on Al Gore

[Linda Minor]

 -Caveat Lector-

WHY EXPOSE GORE'S RECORD NOW?

by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.

Date: December 9, 1998

 He is as dumb and poisonous as a Gila Monster, as slimy-
tailed and mean-spirited as a 'possum, as greedy as a backwoods
loan-shark; he is an Armand Hammer protege, with connections,
disloyalties, and morals to match. You know how that good old
Tennessee boy can get, when he doesn't get his way! There are
some who might suggest, that if some relevant Baptist minister
had held young Al Gore, Jr. under for just another three minutes,
the baptism might have succeeded in making a Christian of even
that "New Age" heathen fanatic. Our bi-polar Vice-President has a
record as long as your arm. The question which will be asked of
me, is, why did I wait so long to speak publicly of the matter in
these terms?

 In life in general, especially in history-making matters of
state, there are some true facts, like your cousin Butch's smelly
feet, Mathilda's insufferably bad breath, or Al Gore's ethics,
which we avoid mentioning, unless absolutely necessary. But,
then, if there comes a time when the survival of nations, even of
civilizations, demands it, the unpleasant truths must be told,
plainly, in timely fashion, with pungency and force.

 How will you react, for example, to the curious coincidence,
that one of my own and President Clinton's loudest enemies,
Conrad Black's Hollinger Corporation, has said pretty much the
same thing about Gore, in the Nov. 1, 1998 edition of its
flagship publication, {The London Daily Telegraph}? How will you
react to learning the additional, hard evidence, which the
{Telegraph} did not report, which shows, that Vice-President Al
Gore has deep, long-standing, close connections to a wide
assortment of some of the most savage among President Bill
Clinton's most impassioned, and nastiest, Zionist far-right-wing
and other political and personal enemies, the recently retired
Newt Gingrich and Conrad Black notably included. Ask yourself:
Why would my own and Clinton's perfervid enemies at the London
{Telegraph}, ruin their otherwise nearly perfect publishing
record, by, for once, telling the insider's truth about anyone,
even Gore?

 The time to speak out, came on the day, in Kuala Lumpur,
when Vice-President Gore made an ass of the United States
government, before the entire world. Admittedly, with his
infantile Bozo-the-Clown act at that recent APEC meeting, he
created a scandal which has ruined forever his chances of
becoming President of the United States; but, that is only the
surface of the crucial national-security problem he created by
his behavior.

 The gut of the Gore issue, is that this is no  ordinary
strategic crisis. By acting as he has done, repeatedly, in the
worsening world crisis which erupted  this Autumn, in the midst
of the most awesome, global financial and monetary crisis in
modern history, Gore's foolish actions, like the treachery of the
Confederacy's Jefferson Davis, crossed the bloody line. He went
beyond his usual, childish foolishness, and crossed that line,
which defines where U.S. national-security ends, and intolerable
conduct begins.

 In the present world crisis, in face of the terrible crisis
to hit during the coming eight weeks, U.S. national security
demands that very plain words be spoken, without the usual
double-talking, boardroom etiquette. The man whom the very-well-
informed {Telegraph} reporter aptly described as "President-in-
Impatient-Waiting" Gore, has crossed the line. After what he has
done, even those who have otherwise tended to be sympathetic to
him, or, at least tolerant, at the {Telegraph}, the {New York
Times}, and elsewhere, have written Gore off publicly as a man
who crossed a line, the type of defective personality which could
never be allowed to become President.

 As a result, President Clinton's ability to deal with the
multiple threats, both to his Presidency and to the nation,
depends upon his acting now to put his Vice-President under
apparent foreign-policy wraps, for the duration of the presently
onrushing global financial crisis. I shall, first, sum up the
nature of the crisis which prompts me to present this report on
what is fairly labelled "The Gore Problem." After that, I shall
summarize the broader strategic issues of foreign policy
involved. In conclusion, I shall summarize the Gore problem as
such.

  {1. The Breaking World Crisis}

 During the coming eight weeks or so immediately ahead, most
of the world, including the U.S.A., will have been plunged into a
deep economic depression, far deeper, far more menacing than what
the U.S.A. experienced under President Herbert Hoover. There is
no guesswork in that forecast; the present figures, showing that
that is what is now about to strike, are easily accessed, and
correspond precisely to the warning I first presented, in the
form of my now well-known "Triple Curve," in the closing weeks of
1995.

 That 

[CTRL] Furby Nightmare Continues

[Brian Redman]

 -Caveat Lector-

"FURBY NIGHTMARE" CONTINUES
---

(CNNS, 12/13/98) -- Much unsettling news has followed the arrival
of the "Furby" to our shores.

In a CNNS (Conspiracy  Nation  News  Service) press release dated
11/30/98, we noted that MASS HYSTERIA had arrived with the Furby.
Horrible fights had broken out  in  retail  outlets,  as  parents
kicked  and scratched each other, desperate to own one of LIMITED
QUANTITIES of the "lovable furry creature."

In her Internet news service and  on radio talk shows, "Ru Mills"
tried to warn us  about  LINGUISTIC MANIPULATIONS associated with
the Furby.  Will  the  Furby  presence,  or  something  like  it,
eventually  dominate  our  homes?  Will Furbies begin to displace
parents in the nurturing of our children?

Now, syndicated columnist  Arianna  Huffington  has weighed in on
the matter.  In her latest  column,  Ms.  Huffington  alerts  her
readers  that  the  Furby  is  manufactured in RED CHINA by SLAVE
LABOR. ("Waiting For Furby", 12/10/98)

Much unsettling news has followed the arrival of the Furby to our
shores.  Here is an outline of events, temporally associated with
the "lovable furry creature"; taken together  they  encompass  an
ONGOING FURBY NIGHTMARE

**  Bill  Clinton's  Farewell  Speech.   On  Dec.  11, 1998, Bill
Clinton gave a sudden,  abrupt,  and  strange Rose Garden speech.
In a CNNS press release dated  12/11/98,  we  called  that  brief
Clinton address his "Farewell Speech To America."  An Op-Ed piece
in  the  Dec.  13,  1998  New  York  Times  supports  our earlier
contention that Bill Clinton has indeed said his final good-byes.
According to the  NYTimes  article,  Bill  Clinton  can no longer
address America "without the risk of  snickers."   Meanwhile,  on
Matt  Drudge's  television  show  of  Dec.  12,  1998, Mr. Drudge
reportedly juxtaposed  film  footage  of former-President Richard
Nixon waving his final good-bye, in 1974, with  film  footage  of
Bill   Clinton  also  waving  good-bye,  also  as  he  boarded  a
helicopter  at  the  White  House.   [1]  Meanwhile,  in  Israel,
severely anti-Clinton posters  began  appearing, "showing Clinton
in a black-and-white traditional Arab headdress with  the  Hebrew
words ``I am a Palestinian'' written above."  (Reuters, 12/10/98)
Prior  to  the assassination (or disappearance) of Yitzhak Rabin,
severely anti-Rabin posters had begun appearing, unfairly showing
Rabin wearing a Nazi uniform.  And in Dallas, in 1963, posters of
a severe anti-JFK nature were posted throughout the city, shortly
before President John F. Kennedy was assassinated.  Time magazine
also, according to Sherman Skolnick, had placed an eerie portrait
of John Kennedy on its cover,  just  prior to his being shot dead
in Dealey Plaza.

** A Furby Christmas.  In order  to prop up sales in this crucial
holiday shopping season, news of  the  torrential  sweep  of  the
worldwide  economic  crisis has been downplayed, here in the U.S.
-- for now.  The Furby has  become a multi-faceted symbol; one of
its meanings is "LIMITED  QUANTITIES/HURRY  UP  AND  SHOP!"   But
after  the retailers have been saved from disaster, then will the
dammed-up economic truth be unleashed. We have:
++  COLLAPSING  HOG  PRICES:   Hog prices "stand at their
  lowest level since the [Great] Depression."  The HOG CRISIS
  is "devastating  to  thousands  of  people  who have staked
  their lives on hogs."  The National  Farmers  Union  blames
  the  crisis on "corporate hog farms" which have flooded the
  market with  hogs,  thereby  deflating  prices.   (New York
  Times, 12/13/98) Adding to  the  HOG  CRISIS  is  the  dire
  impoverishment of Third-World and Second-World markets, who
  can  no  longer  ante up necessary cash to keep on enjoying
  hogs.
++ OIL GLUT:  There  is  a  worldwide "glut" of oil, with
  consequent DEFLATION in oil prices.  In fact, there  is  "a
  glut  in  almost everything -- from commodities like oil to
  finished goods like computers"  (New York Times, 12/13/98).
  This COMMODITIES GLUT runs contrary to the current,  false,
  yet pervasive Furby psychology of "LIMITED QUANTITIES."
++  DEBT  PEONAGE  CAMPS:   Besides  child labor in Third
  World countries, prison labor  in  Red China (where Furbies
  are made), and prison labor even here in the United States,
  we now are seeing the re-emergence of "company stores"  and
  "company housing" in the U.S. Some agricultural workers are
  sold food, wine, and drugs in exchange for their labor, and
  are  "always  on  the  minus  side" in the account books --
  meaning they cannot quit work  until and if company ledgers
  say they can.  (New York Times, 12/13/98)

All this bad news has arrived in tandem with the  "lovable  furry
creature"  from  Red  China.  "By his fruits shall you know him."
Maybe it's time we all took another look at Mr. Furby.

--- Notes ---
[1] Communique from "Rhea Fortean" 

[CTRL] 015 WEB PAGES

[H Samuels]

 -Caveat Lector-

If you have a web page in which the them has the theme
of  Laws of the people, by the people, for the people
Putting control of the government in the hands of the people...

Send a post. In the subject box
*  All caps
* just one space after 015
* no commas

i.e.015 HTTP/DOGGY/HOUSE
The subject box should contain your web page address.

In the body give a discription of the purpose of your page.

If you have found other such web sites, you can use
the same means.

.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Some replies

[H Samuels]

 -Caveat Lector-

One says:

Ok, start here
http://home.talkcity.com/LibertySt/Arem
and click to Civil Liberties, Free Republic.

Now, as for "wide-spreading" your message . . . ask to become a part of
the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and see if that don't get you an audience !!!

 I object to defects in process . . . one of those objections
is to the use of ALL CAPITALS
 . . . you see, that is a nom de guerre (war name)
under the Doctrine of Necessity, as declared every two years by our
Presidents to continue the SUSPENSION of our Constitution
 . . . h.  since FDR 1933.

And, let us NOT get into a "democracy" - - - we started a Republic (if we
could keep it) . . . so, also, may I recommend you join Excite.com
Communities

When you go to my home page (above) click on Civil Liberties
(you will see my Constitutional Republic form of Government site)
. . . go to its related links and click on Constitutional Alliance
/
I will past your post and my reply. There are others who are
on the same beam as you on such topics. They will be able to
go to your web site.
\\
Reply to the above post.

I am not on the internet. I can't go to web sites,
I only have e-mail and my software only connects
me to a local server until I can exchange in/out
going mail.
But I can/will subscribe to the newsletters you
cited with @  in them.
==

If you are on the internet, I can send you gov.txt
I can not send large files, so I have to break them
down.
If you know how to cut and past, you can put
it together and make it available to others.
=

The file covers the set up of the republic, which is
rePUBLIC . I don't have the defination in memory
but a republic is a government which uses representative
to represent the people as a whole.
Political parties do not represent the will of the people,
they represent the agenda of the political parties.
(I won't go into all of that now, it is in the file)
=

The petition network gives the people the power
to recall politicians. At the present time, the party
pals can flip the finger at the people and there is
nothing we can do about it.
Only if, politicians are accountable can there ever
be a hint of a republic.
There can not be, there is no republic in any nation
where politicians have power over the people.
=

Even though a lot of things you stated is a fact,
only a few people know or care. While you have your
hot issues, everyone else has their own.

Information pollution? Do you have time in your life
to read all the information available on the constitution
and government outrage?

Consider someone you know who reads book after
book, reads and writes volumes on the internet
What have they changed after 2 years?

In 5 minutes any voter (who has not read one page
of all that stuff) will do more to make a change
at a voting booth than 10,000 students who have
read a million pages.

Taking such extensive information to the public will
only bore them.
If you are satisfied with things as they are, then
there is no problem, but if you wish to change things
you need the voters.
It does little good to know all of that stuff if you can
do nothing to change it.

Forcing politicians to be under the control of the people
will not be accomplished by knowing all the information
on the internet or by reading ever page of written material.
Forcing politicians to be representatives of the people
will only be accomplished IF/WHEN the politicians are
made accountable to the people.

Passed out a petition?
Signed a petition?
Voted on an issue at the voting booth?

Only those who do not engage in these constitutional
given rights, need tell me about the evils of democracy.

The American movement includes democracy and the
right to petition as stated in the constitution and it integrates
a republic ... an actual republic in which the "representatives"
are not representative of the agendas of political parties nor
are they representatives of bribe givers.

Thanks for the info on the newsgroup
.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to 

Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust

[Laura Shipton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hilary Thomas wrote:
From:  Hilary Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]11:22
Subject:  Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust
To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Reply from Laura
Before you get emotional or try to use the labels that your
teachers gave you read this.  This is the first part, the second part
will have to wait for the holidays.
 http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/EducationReligionandPropoganda.htm
Even if you do not read this to
talk about the Holocaust without talking about the time period before
WW1 and the time during WW1 is irresponsible and simply shows
that you are willing to follow what ever propaganda they are willing
to feed you at this time.  Kind of like the followers of Marcus Garvey
from the 1920's.  Though you could also check out the 1902,
Ida Tarbell, Mc Clure's Magazine, muckrakers, and Standard Oil.

There are some on this list that try to find out why and others
that talk about the results without trying to find out why.

You seem to fall into the emotional, talk about what happened
to me area.  Could you try to figure out why it happened or are
you going to grouse and let you children figure out why it happened
-  If they are allowed!
Laura
aka The Pied Piper

--

my ICQ# 14484977
Education: A House of Mirrors http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm
Legislation and what we are allowing by Letting our
children be labeled as only ADD or ADHD
http://www.cec.sped.org/faq/gt-ld.htm (New 16 Oct 98)

3) Uncover Myths in Education
Myth 1 That Home Schoolers Need to be under the
Umbrella of a Church or Religious Group.
http://www.home-ed-press.com/INF/FREE/hsinfo_far1.html
**
1. Take the 60-day No Aspartame Test and send us your case history.
Mission Possible International
5950-H State Bridge Rd. #215
Duluth, GA 30097 USA
2. Tell your doctor and all of your friends!
3. Return Asparcidal food to the store.
(anything with Monsanto's NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful/Benevia/NatraTaste)
VISIT http://www.dorway.com/possible.html Get links to over 30 sites
VISIT http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/   ..FAQs  Cases
VISIT http://www.notmilk.com Exposing Bovine Growth Hormone
Disability and Death are not acceptable costs of business!

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Teo: Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Edward Britton wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Teo:

 Bob your comments exactly reflect mine.  There is a cronyism that is in
 effect, one that guarantees that Clinton will not be tried for the REAL
 crimes
 he has committed because there are other people involved that would also lose
 out.  Sure people may not like the whole thing (though I am aware of MANY
 people who are fed up with him and his continuous lieing and want him gone
 even if it is "all about sex" as some claim) but most of the people are
 completely oblivious to the real crimes; the chinese encryption transfer, the
 computer transfer, the satellite deals, the COSCO deal, etc. . .  It is my
 belief that if any of this got out widely then the vote for impeachment would
 be a done deal.  It won'tr of course 'cause Ken Starr and his other buddies
 are just as dirty and this needs to be kept under the covers.

 Being in general agreement with this statement, I am interested in your
 conjecture--apart from cronyism--concerning why there was very little
 effort to pursue these issues. It would seem that Starr's efforts would
 have yielded a far better result if these had been the primary focus. And
 yes, I am aware of the debate over there having been, comparatively, less
 evidence regarding "all of the above."

 Edward   

High crimes, treason, bribery. Clinton has committed all of these. The
problem is that the rest of the more powerful politicians have done
the
same. They simply CAN'T bring these charges against him because he can
bring the same charges against his acusers during questioning in court
or in the Senate. Why do you think that the Judiciary Committee
decided
not to look into Clinton/Gore's campaign finance criminalities? That's
the " bribery " issue they need for clear-cut impeachment. But they
are
all guilty of the same crime. The same goes for " treason," since they
also represent corporations who financed them to help do business
abroad
at all costs. Can't go there either.

What you are witnessing is an attempted coup by the right wing. They
want
to throw Clinton off the apple cart without tipping over the apple
cart.
Sit back with this in mind and watch how it's done. It's been done
before.
The Iran/Contra hearings are the blueprint for what happens next. The
real
crimes will be avoided. The minor issues will be exagerated, and they
will
get Clinton out or cripple him severely enough to render him useless.
UNLESS
THINGS GET OUT OF CONTROL IN THE SENATE. This is the best we have to
hope
for as citizens. That they will hate each other enough to do each
other real
damage in the eyes of the voters, hopefully ending in some seriously
needed
reforms.

Joshua2

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust

[Hilary Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

Together We Create Heaven on Earth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Laura Shipton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, December 13, 1998 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust


 -Caveat Lector-

Hilary Thomas wrote:
From:  Hilary Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]11:22
Subject:  Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust
To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Reply from Laura
Before you get emotional or try to use the labels that your
teachers gave you read this.  This is the first part, the second part
will have to wait for the holidays.
 http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/EducationReligionandPropoganda.htm
Even if you do not read this to
talk about the Holocaust without talking about the time period before
WW1 and the time during WW1 is irresponsible and simply shows
that you are willing to follow what ever propaganda they are willing
to feed you at this time.  Kind of like the followers of Marcus Garvey
from the 1920's.  Though you could also check out the 1902,
Ida Tarbell, Mc Clure's Magazine, muckrakers, and Standard Oil.

There are some on this list that try to find out why and others
that talk about the results without trying to find out why.

You seem to fall into the emotional, talk about what happened
to me area.  Could you try to figure out why it happened or are
you going to grouse and let you children figure out why it happened
-  If they are allowed!
Laura
aka The Pied Piper



Laura,

I just read several sections on your website.  I now find your request of me
"Before you get emotional or try to use the labels that your teachers gave
you read this," very interesting.

As the few pages I read on your site covered a wide range of topics, I am
unsure exactly what you wanted me to read up on to educated myself before
having an intelligent conversation on a subject which I can see you have
spend a considerable amount of time researching.

Perhaps you can enlighten me in this matter.

Hilary

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Lawyers Unconstitutional Control of the Nation

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

Brilliant reply, Linda!  (I had to retrieve this from my files.  I save a few
of the wiser posts.  My problem is that I print anything longer than a page
and delete what I have read or printed before going thru the printed stuff.
Then I think, gee, I should have replied to that.)

Your statement is eloquent, powerful, lucid.  More importantly your words of
reason go to the central truth not only regarding our super abundance of laws
but also concerning the motivation and the process by which a sorry cabal has
crippled the nation.

Jerry harp

=

APFN wrote:

•Lawyers are amoral by definition and necessity, and as such should not be
making the rules for the rest of society to live by.

snip
+

Linda Minor replied:

"...I happen to be [a lawyer], as are some of my very good friends.

I find this statement to be
totally asinine.  Amoral by whose definition?  It's not lawyers per se who
are to blame for "making the rules for the rest of society to live by" (as
though lawyers are not themselves a part of that society); it's the belief
of the public that legislation is the answer to everything.  There was a
time when a person could learn the law simply by working as an apprentice to
a practicing attorney to find out how to research judicial precedents and
making a cogent argument before a judge and jury about equity and fairness,
coupled with legal consistency.  Not so any more.  Law no longer consists of
well-reasoned opinions based on the study of jurisprudence and justice.
Everything is statutory (intricately detailed) or even more detailed in the
form of administrative regulations.  No lawyer can keep up with all the
changes in the law.  A person who wants to fight for justice finds himself
trapped in a quagmire of meaningless verbiage.

The problem is greater than the fact that laws are written and interpreted
by men and women trained to speak and write in a particular style.  The real
problem is the microcosm mentality which overlooks the Big Picture, the
historical perspective.  That problem is endemic in every facet of American
life today.  In Texas the State Bar this year increased the mandatory
continuing legal education requirement for ethics from one to three hours a
year.  That means we have to attend seminars analyzing the code of
professional ethics, which are silly rules passed to control how lawyers
deal with their clients.  The reason this seems necessary to the powers that
be is that most people don't know the difference between right and wrong;
they don't have the vaguest idea about honesty, truth or fairness.  So
somebody decided to write rules that set up a standard of behavior.  The
more rules there are, the easier it is to selectively enforce them against
enemies of those in power.

Without that system of detailed statutory law, this contrived impeachment
would not be taking place.  The inquiry is not about morality, perjury,
obstruction of "justice" or anything else other than raw power politics and
gamesmanship.  It is selective manipulation of rules of conduct to advance a
particular agenda.  If this inquiry was really concerned with justice, we'd
be hearing about what went on at Mena.  But then that would bring up the
CIA's role in the crack-cocaine trafficking which was so easily swept under
the rug in San Jose.  Even with Lawrence Walsh's Iran-Contra report
detailing the crimes of the Reagan-Bush cabinet, there was the Big Pardon,
and then everyone forgot all about what really happened and who did what.
The acts of those men were traitorous, and they were all let off.  Those
guys weren't lawyers; they were engineers, businessmen, and most of all
securities peddlers.  The word "attorney" simply means a person who acts on
behalf of someone else; an agent.  The biggest problem with lawyers is that
they believe in the adversary process--that they represent the person who
pays them to the best of their ability.  Do you seriously think your
proposal would keep the vested interests, who don't want their interests
divested, from finding someone else to protect them?

What's ironic about your entire article is that you're trying to do exactly
what you're ranting against--writing insipid legislation that doesn't really
address the evil but just further complicates things by putting another
meaningless law on the books.

MHO,

Linda"

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let 

Re: [CTRL] Fw: Proposed CDC Guidelines Threaten Privacy!

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/12/98 8:03:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  : 1. HIV Names Reporting: The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) yesterday
  : released draft guidelines for the surveillance of HIV cases that would
  : violate our most basic privacy rights.

The political influence of people with HIV/AIDS and their allies (parents,
friends, homosexuals, users of needle injected illegal drugs) is remarkable.

When I got married my betrothed and I had to prove to the state of Texas that
we didn't have syphilis.  This was to protect the healthy from getting this
unfortunate STD.  Suddenly, there is scarce concern to protect the
uncontaminated from a mortal illness, i.e. a life or several lives became less
important than keeping the identities of carriers of a deadly communicable
disease hidden from view.  An age of progress and decay.

Jerry Harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/12/98 8:36:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
  covering for the current president since before his first election. For
 years
  prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..Are
  you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?


Did you slip across from some strange parallel universe?  The news media
attacks on Clinton concerning the bogus Whitewater brouhaha began during the
1992 campaign and the attacks have been ongoing about one matter or another
ever since.  They truly reached the level of frenzy regarding ML.

The corporate controlled news media have been the abject servants of the
radical right's slow motion coup d'etat which may not see full fruition but it
has and will hobble the nation.  While sniveling draft dodgers like Trent and
Newt were flapping their arms about patriotism while crippling the executive
branch without a single word of alarm from the news media, Clinton has been
acting in the nation's interest.  It is easy to tell who has the family and
patriotism when you shed your myopic view.

Jerry harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Happy Hanukkah (fixed-width font necessary)

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

To wish those of the Jewish faith a Happy Hanukkah (and bug the Nazi
sympathizers on the list)  ;-)


  (
  ) ( ) ((_)( ( ) (
 (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   |~|   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)
 |~|   |~|   |~|   |~|   |:|   |~|   |~|   |~|   |~|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|  +++  |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
+++ +++ +++ +++  }~{  +++ +++ +++ +++
 }~{   }~{   }~{   }~{   {+}   }~{   }~{   }~{   }~{
 {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}
  {}{} {}{}  {+}  {}{} {}{}
   `{}   `{}`{}   {} {+} {}   {}`{}`   {}`
  `{}   `{}   `{}  {}{+}{}  {}`   {}`   {}`
`'{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}+{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}'`
  `{}{}{}{}__/_\__{}{}{}{}`
   \/   \/
   /\___/\
   ~~\_/~~
 {+}
 {+}
  __+++__
  ___{}{}\O/{}{}___
   __+__
  {}{}{}{}{}{/O\}{}{}{}{}{}
  `"""`
-jgs

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Outline of new Republican National Health Plan.

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 1:38:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  Health plan? Social Security? Why do Democrats or Republicans
  care. They are all multi millionaires.


Few things are more strange than the frequent statements from some on this
list that there is no difference between the two major parties.  When one
compares the legislative votes and what the President proposes, there is a
remarkable difference.  Generally speaking, when some socially progressive
bill comes before Congress, such as an increase in the minimum wage, the
democrats will vote in favor by, say, 75% while the Republicans are 7% in
favor.  If the bill is socially regressive, as in lowering environmental
quality standards, the vote pattern is reversed.  There's no difference?

The Democrats are hardly 10 feet tall.  The 4 foot Democratic party only seem
tall when compared with the 6 inch Republican party.

Jerry Harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Democracy Project

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 1:38:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 One of my fair feathered friends does a lot of quacking.
  While making good arguments, some of it is a
  "little" crude. That is ok, as long as you get the
  point.

I hope this does not mean that ctrl has reached some critical mass criteria so
that it is now deemed a worthy trolling area for bigots.

Jerry harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Clinton replies

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 4:36:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  *you see. they told you to say that. just to keep the hubbub going so that
  they can slip something by everyone while they hold our attention on this
  mountain they are making of this ant hill. and we are supposed to believe
  your idiotic fluff by the simple force of its conspiratorial-like agenda.
  your betters seem to think that by making enough noise about the issue,
  that they can make it appear to have actual merit. but it does not; just a
  lot of noise and fluff created to divert attention from real matters.*


Bravo, e_mael.  Let's hope dr. quack quack takes your words to heart.

Jerry harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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[CTRL] June: Happy Hanukkah (fixed-width font necessary)

[Edward Britton]

 -Caveat Lector-

June:

Nice job!!

Is this your work?

Edward   
To wish those of the Jewish faith a Happy Hanukkah (and bug the Nazi
sympathizers on the list)  ;-)


  (
  ) ( ) ((_)( ( ) (
 (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   |~|   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)
 |~|   |~|   |~|   |~|   |:|   |~|   |~|   |~|   |~|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
 |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|  +++  |:|   |:|   |:|   |:|
+++ +++ +++ +++  }~{  +++ +++ +++ +++
 }~{   }~{   }~{   }~{   {+}   }~{   }~{   }~{   }~{
 {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}   {+}
  {}{} {}{}  {+}  {}{} {}{}
   `{}   `{}`{}   {} {+} {}   {}`{}`   {}`
  `{}   `{}   `{}  {}{+}{}  {}`   {}`   {}`
`'{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}+{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}'`
  `{}{}{}{}__/_\__{}{}{}{}`
   \/   \/
   /\___/\
   ~~\_/~~
 {+}
 {+}
  __+++__
  ___{}{}\O/{}{}___
   __+__
  {}{}{}{}{}{/O\}{}{}{}{}{}
  `"""`
-jgs

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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[]===[]
 "Go for goats, Bill.  They don't talk." Yasser Arafat
   http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5285/connector1.html
Talk to the planet. Subscribe to Reality Pump:
  http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Reality_Pump2
[]===[]

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 5:46:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  In a message dated 12/12/98 8:36:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, JYester@AOL.
 COM
  writes:

  
Now that's an interesting observation. The media have been defending and
covering for the current president since before his first election. For
   years
prior to that they have consistently espoused a left-wing agenda. ..
 Are
you suggesting that all of this is some sort of reverse pyschology?
  

  Did you slip across from some strange parallel universe?  The news media
  attacks on Clinton concerning the bogus Whitewater brouhaha began during
the
  1992 campaign and the attacks have been ongoing about one matter or another
  ever since.  They truly reached the level of frenzy regarding ML.

  The corporate controlled news media have been the abject servants of the
  radical right's slow motion coup d'etat which may not see full fruition but
 it
  has and will hobble the nation.  While sniveling draft dodgers like Trent
 and
  Newt were flapping their arms about patriotism while crippling the
executive
  branch without a single word of alarm from the news media, Clinton has been
  acting in the nation's interest.  It is easy to tell who has the family and
  patriotism when you shed your myopic view.

  Jerry harp

Don't know if my universe is parallel to yours, but I'm certain that it's a
separate one.

Regards,

Jim

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] Armand Hammer and Arnold Happer - the real Local Hero

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
Flight 800 discussion list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
MH quotes:
familiarize yourself with a man by the name of Armand Hammer

I remember the old bastard very well. The only time I ever met him personally
was a quarter of a century ago and he never could get my name right. I was
actually present when he made his infamous offer to the people of the Orkney
Island of Flotta when he suggested that Oxy should donate a piano to the
village Hall in compensation for building his Piper/Claymore oil terminal on
their little island.

A deliciously amusing film was made about the events surrounding that day and
I heartily commend that movie to fellow LSofters. Go out and rent a video
called "Local Hero" from your local video store. You'll love it. The humour is
rather sardonic and often subtle, but some of the funny aspects will amuse
even the grimmest of participants in our forum.

The makers of "Local Hero" had to change some of the names in order to avoid
heavyweight litigation, but many of the names were not changed very much.
Armand Hammer became Arnold Happer and was played by Burt Lancaster. The
character of "Macintyre" in the film is based on a real life chap whose name
sounds very similar. The young Scots multilingual Surveyor's name was
phonetically unchanged, but the oceanographer at Wallingford - and his
gorgeous daughter - both had their names heavily modified in the film, in
reality she really was as gorgeous as in the film, actually more so. In
reality she married her tennis coach, not the poor lovesick Surveyor.

The Oil Company's name of Oxy was changed by the film into Knox. John
Polland's name was unchanged, in fact he actually played himself in the film.

Hammer's nutty Californian psychiatrist really was as loony as the character
in the film. Many of the local characters in the film are based on real
people, though some are an amalgamation of two or more people in more than one
or more real situation.

The Soviet Captain in the film, for example, who illegally landed to check on
his Stock Market investments and bonk his Post-Mistress, was based on an
embarrassingly large number of real Russians in exactly the same circumstances
in nearly identical locations. It really did happen like that.

Go and see the film. It tells more than it says and it says more than it tells
... the truth.



Cheers, Chris Olsson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

PS This posting has nothing whatsoever to do with TWA800
-
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fw: Proposed CDC Guidelines Threaten Privacy!

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

I think the AIDS / SIDA issue was presumed to include privacy as part of
the issue to avoid stigmatising those who got it.  But what is weird, as
you point out, anyone who got STDs in the 'olden' days got identified,
presumably to find out who else was possibly infected.  NOW, at this point
in history, people can't ask and don't tell and it's like Russian Roulette
but I'm not sure if the ratio is 1 to 6 or better any more.  I can
understand the concept of not wanting to know but I think they ought to put
the whole thing in the same category as drug testing:  a matter of public
safety.


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

--
: From: Gerald Harp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fw: Proposed CDC Guidelines Threaten Privacy!
: Date: Sunday, December 13, 1998 4:32 PM
:
:  -Caveat Lector-
:
: In a message dated 12/12/98 8:03:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
:
: 
:   : 1. HIV Names Reporting: The Centers for Disease Control (CDC)
yesterday
:   : released draft guidelines for the surveillance of HIV cases that
would
:   : violate our most basic privacy rights.
:
: The political influence of people with HIV/AIDS and their allies
(parents,
: friends, homosexuals, users of needle injected illegal drugs) is
remarkable.
:
: When I got married my betrothed and I had to prove to the state of Texas
that
: we didn't have syphilis.  This was to protect the healthy from getting
this
: unfortunate STD.  Suddenly, there is scarce concern to protect the
: uncontaminated from a mortal illness, i.e. a life or several lives became
less
: important than keeping the identities of carriers of a deadly
communicable
: disease hidden from view.  An age of progress and decay.
:
: Jerry Harp
:
: DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
: ==
: CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
: screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
: and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
: frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
: spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
: gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
: be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
: nazi's need not apply.
:
: Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
:
: 
: To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:
: To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:
: Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] Re: Conversations with M.Dagobert 12/12/98

[RoadsEnd]

From: Tim Carmain [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Well, as Derek has claimed the Devi's Advocate role, I guess I'll call
myself the "fly in the ointment"... See below:

---Derek Hiemforth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Today, December 12, I had a few hours conversation with Roger-Rene'
Dagobert
 de' Groucy. The direct and treu descendant of Dagobert II.
 [snip]
 he is a true and recognized descendant of Dagobert

Recognized by who?  I thought the orthodox historical position was
 that DagobertII didn't have any heirs.  On what grounds should we
 accept his claim to legitimacy as any more serious than Plantard's?

From a genealogical standpoint, I might point out here that the
purported descendance of the Counts of Razes from Dagobert II has
never been substantiated and was unheard of before HBHG was published
(nor is it widely accepted in genealogical circles).  We have nothing
but faith to go on here, and speaking for myself, I have no faith in
M. Plantard's or M. de Groucy's claims.  I can say with a degree of
certainty (i.e. backed up with known and non-contradictory
genealogical sources) that the chart provided to Baigent, Leigh and
Lincoln (and rehashed by Gardner) by Henri Lobineau contains one
serious flaw.  I'm referring to the chart called "The Merovingian
Dynasty - The Lost Kings" in HBHG.  This wrongly identifies the
parents of Eustache I, Count of Boulogne (grandfather of Godfrey of
Bouillon) as Hugues de Plantard and Agnes of Jumieges; and further the
text indicates that Eustache was the adopted stepson of Ernicule,
Count of Boulogne, Agnes's second husband.  Every tried-and-true
source I've consulted over the years refutes this "Boulogne-ey".
Eustache I was the son of Baudouin II of Boulogne and Adele of
Holland, and was the actual great-grandson of Ernicule.  This is an
important point considering that the Plantard claim has their line
descending from an older brother of the above-named Hugues, thus
pre-empting the purported position of Eustache I and later of Godfrey
of Bouillon as the "primogenitus" Merovingian line.  If Plantard's
co-opted genealogy has since been refuted as fraudulent (and to my
satisfaction, it has), then I certainly wouldn't put much stock in the
claims of M. de Groucy, who seems to be attempting to graft his
descent onto an earlier graft that didn't bear fruit.  I also doubt
very seriously that Godfrey, in founding the Priory of Sion in 1090 or
1099 or whenever it was, did so thinking that his patrilineal descent
qualified him as the Merovingian (and thus Davidic) primogenitus; if
it was given any consideration at all, it would have been his
matrilineal line (through his mother Saint Ida) that qualified him.

Just a hunch on my part, but I believe that this is why the Templar
Order was founded in 1118 as an adjunct and visible branch of the PoS
- to continue the excavations for evidence of the Boulogne /Bouillon
claim after the death without direct heirs of Baudouin I, Godfrey's
younger brother.  The older brother, Eustache III of Boulogne, didn't
get from Europe to Jerusalem in time to be crowned king, according to
Runciman.  In his place, the knights elected his cousin Baudouin of
Edessa, who was not a blood descendant of Saint Ida and thus not the
"primogenitus".  Eustache's daughter and heiress Mathilda was married
to Stephen of Blois, later King Stephen of England, a scion of the
House of Champagne; thus the intense interest of that family and it's
retainers to continue the excavations under the guise of the Templar
order without revealing the true intent and mission of the PoS (i.e.,
to put a Champagne with Boulogne ancestry on the throne of Jerusalem).
 Unfortunately, by 1188, the Templars had revealed all to the Anjou
descendants of Baudouin II, who claimed the "miraculous" descent for
themselves.  Hence the cutting of the elm at Gisors - a symbolic, yet
meaningful separation of the PoS "legitimists" who maintained the
Boulogne claim (which by then had passed to the House of Brabant) from
the Templars, who by that time had thrown in their lot with the Anjous.

Well, now I'm getting off on a completely different tangent.  The
point I'm attempting to make is that Plantard, Lobineau, Baigent et
al, and now apparently de Groucy would have us believe that Godfrey of
Bouillon's Merovingian /Davidic claim came to him through his father's
purported descent from Dagobert II.  Unfortunately, there is no
evidence beyond what was put out by Lobineau to even suggest that
Dagobert II had heirs, at least not any that can be substantiated from
other sources.  While Godfrey's father certainly did have Merovingian
ancestors through several lines, so did his mother, Saint Ida - and
better ones at that.

In order to put Plantard at the forefront as the Merovingian
primogenitus, Lobineau must have known that it was Godfrey that he had
to supercede, not the Anjous or their descendants.  Hence, the
fabricated parentage of Eustache I of Boulogne as the offspring 

[CTRL] MidEast: 12-13

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

From ArabicNews.CoM

Deep differences characterize 1st day of Clinton's visit
Palestine, Politics, 12/13/98

Separated by deep differences, US President Bill Clinton and Israeli Prime
Minister Benyamin Netanyahu are both in waiting for the outcome of the
Monday session of the Palestine National Council in Gaza.

Israel wanted the PNC to cancel the national charter that calls for the
destruction of the Jewish state. The Palestinians insist the charter was
amended back in 1996 and therefore "there is no need to cancel what has
already been canceled." President Clinton is to attend the Gaza session and
his views of what happens in the course of the session will be crucial in
decided the next steps. If President Clinton says the hand raising voting
in the PNC was enough and if Netanyahu says he is satisfied with the
voting, a three-way summit might take place on Monday night, or Tuesday
morning at the latest between Presidents Clinton and Arafat and premier
Netanyahu.

Clinton arrived in Israel late Saturday night. Israeli president Ezer
Weizman greeted him with a warm speech, unlike the one made by Netanyahu
who, against all protocols, delivered a long speech and switched between
English and Hebrew. According to the protocol, only the two presidents were
supposed to speak: Clinton and Weizman. President Clinton stressed the
subject of security in his speech, and said that the United States would
march in the process along side of Israel. US sources said the Clinton
Administration disagrees with Netanyahu when he claims that the
Palestinians have not implemented any of the Wye Agreement clauses.

Israel, meanwhile, claims it would not be ready to carry out any of the
outstanding clauses of Wye Agreement until after the PNA meets a set of
Israeli demands, most of which were not included in Wye Agreement.

Israel wants a declaration from President Arafat that he would not declare
the establishment of an independent Palestinian state by May next year.
Israel also wants the PNC to cancel the national charter and PNA to take
more steps against opposition groups. The Palestinians want Israel to
release political and security prisoners, to carry out the further
redeployment of its troops in the West Bank, to expand the pace of the
third phase withdrawal which stands at the moment at only one percent of
the West Bank territories, to open the safe passages between the West Bank
and Gaza and to authorize the opening of work to establish the Gaza
seaport.

Approximately 15,000 police, soldiers, Israeli general security services,
American secret service, PNA police and preventative security are part of
the safety arrangements for President Clinton's visit. The unprecedented
security caused heavy traffic disruptions in West Jerusalem. Surrounded by
hundreds of police and guards, the Hilton hotel is combed daily by sappers
and explosive sniffing dogs as snipers took positions on the surrounding
buildings. Late last week, Israeli and American security officials carried
out a security check of all government offices which look out onto the
prime minister's office building, where Clinton and Netanyahu met Sunday.

Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah Shami said in Gaza that Clinton has come to
the region in order to "concoct conspiracies" against the opposition
movement. "Clinton's mission is therefore satanic." Shami said the current
wave of demonstrations in the Palestinian territories in solidarity with
the political prisoners might not be enough to secure their release.
Instead, he called for abducting Israeli soldiers in order to negotiate
their release for the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel.

- ___      __
 /  |/  /  /___/  / /_ //  M I D - E A S T   R E A L I T I E S
/ /|_/ /  /_/_   / /\\   Making Sense of the Middle East
   /_/  /_/  /___/  /_/  \\http://www.MiddleEast.Org

   CLINTON IN ISRAEL/PALESTINE



 A "PEACE PROCESS" BUILT ON
 POLITICAL QUICKSAND

 By Mark Bruzonsky*

Clinton arrived to blaring trumpets very late Saturday evening.  He
arrived in Israel, not Palestine, and no one should doubt that basic
significance.

One of the greatest ironies of this generation is that while the world
mobilized to bring the Apartheid of South Africa to an end, at nearly
the same historic moment it allowed the U.S and Israel to implement a
variant of Apartheid in the Middle East.  Another generation of
conflict is thus ensured, no matter what the politicians of the moment
proclaim.

Whatever further symbolism takes place with Clinton's Gaza visit, it is
sure to be feverishly played up by the Arafat crowd.  But the basic
reality that Gaza has been twisted into a ghetto/prison surrounded on
three sides by an Israeli-patrolled electrified fence, on the fourth by
the Israeli-guarded sea, and 

[CTRL] Pinochet: 12-13

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

From Irish Times:

WORLDSaturday, December 12, 1998Picture

Pinochet remanded, refuses to recognise court


Lawyers now turn their attention to the challenge to the Law Lords' ruling
next week, writes Frank Millar, London Editor


PicturePinochet: An angry and defiant General Augusto Pinochet told Bow
Street Magistrates yesterday he did not recognise the jurisdiction of their
court in considering the Spanish application for his extradition to face
charges of "diabolical crimes" against humanity.

The former Chilean dictator was making his first public appearance since
his arrest in October; since the historic ruling by the Law Lords that he
did not enjoy sovereign immunity as a former head of state; and since
Wednesday's determination by the Home Secretary, Mr Jack Straw, that the
Spanish extradition request should proceed before the British courts.

Dapper in brown pin-stripe suit, off-white shirt and gold tie, his hand
resting on a walking stick, the 83-year-old general looked resolutely glum
during proceedings in the high-security court complex at Belmarsh, normally
host to Britain's most dangerous criminal and terrorist suspects.

Watched by diplomatic and political supporters from the public gallery,
including the head of Chile's Institute for Military Studies, Gen Pinochet
spoke only twice during the hearing lasting just under 30 minutes.

After his arrival in the court in a wheelchair, Gen Pinochet was asked by
the clerk to state his name. Speaking in Spanish, his words translated, he
replied: "I am Augusto Pinochet Ugarte. I was commander-in-chief of the
army, the Captain General of Chile, and actually I am at the moment a
senator of the Republic."

He then sat stern and motionless as the court determined how the case
should proceed, varying the terms of his bail only to permit him use of the
garden in his temporary home on the luxury Wentworth estate in Surrey - but
with even that privilege subject to the decision of the senior police
officer on duty, and liable to be withheld on grounds of security.

Having heard the case adjourned until January 18th, and been told that he
need not appear on that occasion, Mr Clive Nicholls QC said that, as this
was his first appearance since his arrest, his client was anxious to make a
statement. Gen Pinochet told Mr Graham Parkinson, the Chief Metropolitan
Stipendiary Magistrate: "With respect to your honour, I do not recognise
the jurisdiction of any other court, except in my country, to try me
against all the lies of Spain."

But for all the defiant language, there was no suggestion that Gen Pinochet
- Britain's friend during the Falklands War - was about to emulate Irish
republicans by dismissing counsel and surrendering his fate to the bench.

On the contrary, the decision that the general need not appear before the
magistrates on January 18th reflected the uncertainties arising from the
unprecedented challenge his lawyers will mount in the House of Lords next
week in an attempt to overturn the original decision of the Law Lords on a
split 3/2 decision.

A committee of three Law Lords will sit on Tuesday and Wednesday to hear
representations that the decision on immunity should be overturned because
one of the three-man majority, Lord Hoffmann, has links with Amnesty
International.

Amnesty says the decision shows desperation on the part of Gen Pinochet's
lawyers, and that the involvement of Lord and Lady Hoffmann with the
organisation had not extended to any part of its campaign against the
former dictator.

Yesterday's hearing was told that, if the lawyers succeeded in having the
original ruling set aside, January 12th would be the earliest date on which
the Law Lords could sit to reconsider the case. In consequence, the parties
would be unlikely to agree a date for the full extradition committal
hearing, and it might be possible to set a date only for a directions
hearing, which the general need not attend.

Mr Nicholls told the court he and his colleagues were also still
considering whether to seek leave for judicial review of the Home
Secretary's decision to grant the "authority to proceed".

Labour MPs cheered Mr Straw when he appeared in the Commons on Wednesday
night following his decision. But in an increasingly polarised debate, the
government was criticised for reaching "an accommodation of convenience
with Gerry Adams" while denying Chile the right to do the same with Gen
Pinochet. In his ruling Mr Straw noted that, while the Chilean government
had urged the general's return home for trial, he had no extradition
request from Chile to consider.


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 12:42:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Generally in newsrooms you have a perponderence of democrats, -- just as in
  the general population . . .duh! The ownership is almost 100% percent
  republican and there is no true debate in the media. There is no true
  discussion, it is a controlled parameterial debate. Left-wing is only
 visible
  at boston market.

  Om
  K

Of course you are correct. However, at that level (media ownership) it is no
more significant what a man's party membership is than it is what color suit
he is wearing on a given day. At the newsroom level the pendulum is
occassionally swung slightly from left to right - thesis to antithesis -
depending upon what is being accomplished at the time. Of course the final
synthesis, which we are rapidly approaching, is totalitarianism, which is
usually labeled right-wing, but is usually arrived at from the left.

Valid commentary was made in this thread from BOTH sides of the Clinton
impeachment argument, indicating the accuracy of your characterization of a
parameterial debate. We (average Americans) are screened from the real debate.
In fact, there is no debate. As to the larger picture, the die is cast.

Incidentally, to further illustrate the ambiguity of our petty arguments, and
to be chronologically accurate, the last honorable man to serve as president
was Ronald Reagan. The rub was that his administration was peopled with white
collar criminals, including George H. W. Bush.

Jim

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fwd: [MC] Vanished sect leaves questions

[RoadsEnd]

MK-Miller story starts to mimic Jim Jones.. Wish some members would come
foward to clear up any possible fabrications in news reports.

From: http://insidedenver.com:80/news/1213cult0.shtml
-
Vanished sect leaves only questions

Whereabouts unknown of 78 Concerned Christians; some fear suicide is
ahead

By Charlie Brennan
News Staff Writer

More than two months after the vanishing act, the mystery has only
deepened.

Seventy-eight members of Concerned Christians, a Denver-based sect that
disappeared this fall, continue to keep their whereabouts secret from
family and friends.

White and black, married and single, white-collar professionals and
unemployed laborers, they range in age from infancy to 68. What they
have in common is a shared belief in the teachings of Monte Kim Miller.

Miller is the 44-year-old former Denver resident who has said he's one
of the final two witnesses prophesied in the Bible in Chapter 11 of the
Book of Revelation. He claims he is destined to die in the streets of
Jerusalem in the final days of December1999.

The silence from his followers is deafening and frightening to their
abandoned friends and family.

"Once they go into the area of isolation and break off communication,
that increases his power," said John Weaver, the former husband of cult
member Jan Cooper. "That becomes a scary time."

His concern is echoed by Hal Mansfield, director of the Religious
Movement Resource Center in Fort Collins.

"Moving an entire group out of the country, that's some serious stuff,"
Mansfield said. "He is practicing behavior modification and mind
control."

There are occasional phone and e-mail messages from missing Concerned
Christians to those left behind. They offer some comfort.

But they're countered by the 1997 affidavit of 16-year-old Nicolette
Weaver, filed in a Boulder District Court proceeding awarding her
father, John Weaver, sole custody of  her. She had grown fearful about
what she  heard from Miller and from her mother and stepfather, Jan and
John Cooper.

Nicolette Weaver's affidavit, written when she was 14, included these
statements:

"My mother told me in August '96 that we have only 40 months left on
Earth."

"My mother told me that if Kim Miller told her to kill me, she would."

"Kim Miller said that America was the Great Satan."

"Kim Miller told me that the Lord speaks through him."

"Kim Miller intimidated me by saying if I told my father anything about
Miller's ministry, I would go to hell."

"My mother calls Kim Miller 'Lord' or 'God."'

"My mother said I had to do only enough school work to satisfy Colorado
state laws, but no more was needed because I would not be on Earth long
enough to have a job."

Another adolescent child was told by her father, a Concerned Christians
member, that the end of the world is near, and that it will resemble the
movie Independence Day -- but instead of aliens, fire will shoot down
from the sky.

"There's reason for concern in any kind of group in which someone is
prophesying the end of the world," said James Van Beek, an  Eagle County
sheriff's detective whose brother-in-law and seven other relatives are
in the group.

"I'm trying not to judge them one way or the other," said Van Beek. "But
it concerns me that they're involved with someone where there is the
potential for this to happen."

Mansfield is making no assumptions as to what could happen next.

"It could go either way, anywhere from the group falling apart and going
away quietly, to the other extreme -- a Jonestown scene,  or anything
and everything in between," Mansfield said.

Jonestown stands as the worst-case example of a cult holocaust. On Nov.
18,  1978, more than 900 members of the Peoples Temple Commune,
including leader Jim Jones, died in a mass murder-suicide.

(*interruption: mass-murder.)

That group originated in San Francisco and left the country, meeting its
fate in the jungle near Georgetown, Guyana.

Mansfield dismisses Miller's theology as the nonsensical rantings of a
con artist -- and certainly, money is part of the story.

Miller filed for bankruptcy in October 1997, showing $142,628 in assets
but $748,852 in debts. Those debts ranged from the $102,044 he owed the
Internal Revenue Service, to $15,000 he borrowed from Concerned
Christian member Gary Schmidt, to $314 for treatment from the Telluride
Medical Center.

There will be about $70,000 to be doled out by a trustee, after
subtracting certain exemptions Miller is permitted against his assets,
in his Chapter 7 bankruptcy proceeding.

If the creditors aren't satisfied by that, and they want to talk to
Miller about it, first they have to find him.

Guesses as to the wherabouts of Miller and his followers range from
Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula to Toronto to Libya.

Van Beek said his wife's brother and the brother's wife, James and
Melanie Dyck of Eagle, have disappeared along with their 7-month-old
son, plus Melanie Dyck's mother and stepfather, Vonnett and Terry Smith
of Eagle; Melanie Dyck's two 

[CTRL] Happy Hanukkah

[dduckquack]

 -Caveat Lector-

To wish those of the Jewish faith a Happy Hanukkah (and bug the Nazi
sympathizers on the list)  ;-)
///

Nazis were a political party which no longer exists, so wouldn't that
be like being a sympathiser of lepracauns?

For those of Jewish faith, explain to me what the Jewish Faith
consist of?

1)  Is Hanukkah some cermony in the Torah?
2)  Is the Jewish faith the same faith of the Israelites?
3)  Wasn't Adoph Eichman a Jewish nazi?
4)  In the jewish religion, isn't there a lot of rules that jews are
 supposed to follow?

I have asked such questions of jews many times and it seems
they can not explain what the jewish religion is.
I have looked in the bible and found all the information as to the
idenity of who the jews are and everyone blames those definations
on me.

Perhaps, you can tell me what a Jew is and what the Jewish religion
is?

.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] Re: notes on part 2 of gardner's 'starfire' article

[RoadsEnd]

From: La Colombe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Many thanks to Julie for posting this. It has saved the interested
parties among us from spending money upon a load of crap, as the
points presented demonstrate.

---VAL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: VAL [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 notes on part two of l. gardner's three-part article, 'Starfire : the
 Gold of the Gods,' in the december/january issue of 'nexus' magazine
 (notes from part one included below)


 the word 'kingship' derived from 'cainship,' referring to the Biblical
 cain. (for importance of cain, see part one)

In whose language? Cain is a figure from Biblical/Hebrew mythology,
and thus one would expect any etymology associated with the name to
have a meaning in Hebrew, the language in which his story is told.
However, the Hebrew for 'kingship' is 'malkhuth', which doesn't bear
the slightest resemblance to the name of Cain. I presume there is some
piece of linguistic nonsense behind this, roughly along the lines of
those presented by van Buren in her RlC related works.

In Hebrew, the word 'Cain' (qoph-yod-nun) means spear or dagger,
pronounced 'ka-yin'.

 one was deemed eligible to become king when he reached the state of
 'malku,' enlightened consciousness.  this root was the origin of the
 Hebrew words 'malchus' (king) and 'malkhut' (kingdom)

The hebrew for 'King' is 'melek', not 'malchus'; in fact, the form
'malchus' is impossible as a derivation from the triliteral MLK which
underlies words associated with kingship, since it imports, from
nowhere, an extra consonant which isn't associated with any Hebrew
verb-form. Verb-forms by and large depend on changes of vowel, and any
which add consonants add the prefixes (not suffixes) me'- 'he'- or
hit'-. There's no way a word with a suffixed 's' could be genuinely
derived from a Hebrew verb-root.

And there's no trace of a Hebrew word derived from this root which has
anything to do with 'enlightened consciousness'. I'd be fascinated to
hear what language Gardner claims to be dealing with here.


 stresses the importance of melatonin ingestion to most efficiently
 metabolize the intake of pineal gland secretions --- 'melatonin'
 meaning night worker or night laborer

More rubbish. The medical term 'Melatonin' - a hormonal secretion from
the pineal gland - is derived from the Greek 'melos', which means
'black'. In Greek, 'night' is 'nuktos'.

 . . . 'by virtue of their bodily conditioning through supplementary
 melatonin and other hormonal secretions, they [grail kings] were in
 fact princes of darkness'

ROFLMAO!!!

 ancient egyptian court of the dragon (see part one) carried on after
 lapses of centuries : 15th century chancellor of dragon court was
 prince vlad III of transylvania-wallachia

Vlad Tepes was a voivode or warlord of Wallachia in the C15th; that's
true. However, his main purpose in life was the defence of his
homeland against the Muslim Turks, which he pursued with ruthless
effectiveness in his capacity as Catholic prince. He was one of those
who prevented the further incursion of the Ottoman Empire into Eastern
Europe. What he's supposed to have to do with Egypt is beyond me;
likewise, Gardner seems to be completely unaware of the difference
between Vlad himself and the fictional 'Dracula', who based only
remotely, if at all, upon Vlad Tepes. Check out Elizabeth Miller's
Dracula pages (go on, look it up; I don't have the URL to hand) if you
don't believe me; she demonstrates beyond all doubt that Bram Stoker
knew almost nothing about the real Vlad Tepes and based very little of
the character of his 'prince of darkness' upon the real Vlad.

How appalling to discover that someone who's such a major influence on
modern-day Grail-seekers is so completely unable to tell the
difference between fact and fiction - or even between fiction, and
popular/cinematic interpretations of said fiction!

 speaks of the 'old language' of southern europe.

Precisely what language is this supposed to be?

  'ylbi' was a female
 elf.  name of french town of albi comes from this root.

No it doesn't. It derives from the late Latin 'albus', which means
'white'.


 incursions into sumeria by akkadians, amorites, and elamits caused the
 civilization to decline ; thus, abraham leaves the city of ur

Abraham is said to have come from 'Ur of the Chaldees'. The Chaldees
or Chaldeans did not invade Ur and its environs until c. 1000 BC,
which is some 2 millenia after the demise of the Sumerian city-state
system and its absorption by the Mittannian, and then the Assyrian,
empire. To say that Abraham left a 'Sumerian' city is to betray one's
historical ignorance.

Also, Sumeria was a collection of relatively independent city-states;
it wasn't an empire. Not until the establishment of Mittanni, and then
the Assrian empire, did the concept of a kingdom with an all-powerful
king appear in the area. What does he mean by 'the decline of
civilisation'? Given his obsession with kingship, I'd expect Gardner
to be in favour of the 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thanks, but I would wonder about ole Ronnie. Have you read Moldea's Dark
Victory and/or Freed's Secret Life of Ronald Reagan?  What would a 'B'  do to
play 'AAA'?

Just some thoughts,
Om
K


In a message dated 12/13/98 5:12:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Incidentally, to further illustrate the ambiguity of our petty arguments, and
to be chronologically accurate, the last honorable man to serve as president
was Ronald Reagan. The rub was that his administration was peopled with white
collar criminals, including George H. W. Bush.

Jim


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to anyone
any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the death of
Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-and-guns
operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no honorable
man, no way.

Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a t a
loss for the title. Anyone have that?

kt

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] CIA PILOT ROBERT TOSH PLUMLEE

[Linda Minor]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.geocities.com/~bobkatmusic/toshconfess.htm

EXCERPTS FROM THE CONFESSION OF CIA PILOT ROBERT "TOSH" PLUMLEE
Former CIA pilot Robert "Tosh" Plumlee speaks out for the first time about
his participation in the JFK assassination. Mr. Plumlee's testimony to the
United States Senate Intelligence Committee has been classified as "Top
Secret."
WARNING
This confidential report and the information herein are the sole and
exclusive copyrighted property of Investigative Concepts Unlimited ("ICU"),
2609 Coffee Tree Court, Antioch, CA 94509, Phone: (925) 754-8833. This
report, in full or in part, may not be reproduced, copied, broadcast,
distributed, or disseminated in any manner without the expressed written
consent of ICU. Anyone who violates this copyright notice may be subject to
civil and criminal penalties and jail. All copyright infringements shall be
reported to the FBI.
Q: Tosh, how do you make your living, what kind of occupation are you in?
A: I'm a pilot, commercial pilot.
Q: When did you first become a pilot?
A: I started in 1956. I was an aircraft mechanic prior to going in and
getting my license.
Q: And, you've been flying for a living ever since?
A: Off and on and also doing other jobs in those lean, lean years so to
speak.
Q: In your times as a pilot, have you ever been associated with or worked
with the CIA?
A: Yes I have.
Q: What was the first time?
A: The first time was 1956 and the first time I became involved, connected
with the CIA, through out of military intelligence, was the M-267 and that
was a gun running supply operation to supply guns and ammunition to the
students at the University of Havana inside Cuba. This was pro-Castro days.
This was before Castro came into power. And, that was the beginning.
Q: Have you worked with the CIA since that time?
A: Yes, I've worked with the CIA.
Q: On just another occasion or many occasions?
A: On many occasions.
Q: Over a period of how many years?
A: Off and on, over a period of 30 years.
Q: Have you ever met, in your lifetime, a person named John Roselli?
A: Yes, I knew John Roselli rather well.
Q: When did you first meet him?
A: I met Roselli in about 1960, last part of '60, first part of '61. And,
this was at Biscayne Park, we'd just came from a meeting place called Sloppy
Joe's on Flagler Street in Miami. And, Johnny, John Farentello was there,
the person that introduced me to John Roselli.
Q: Have you ever had an occasion to fly in an airplane or to fly John
Roselli?
A: I've flown John Roselli, I would say, perhaps more than 6 or 7 different
occasions. These were to islands, well not islands, but to the Marathon Key
in Florida, Bimini, once to Havana, one other time from Houston to Galvezton
to see about getting a raider ship which was going to O'Rourke's operation,
and another time from Salt Lake City to Thunderbird Inn in Las Vegas, and
then from Las Vegas to Santa Barbara, California. And, that particular
transition of flights was 1963.
Q: On those occasions, did you get to know John Roselli personally?
A: Yes, I knew John Roselli personally.
Q: Where were you on November 22, 1963?
A: I was observing the attempt on Kennedy's life. I was at Dealey Plaza on
the South Knoll.
Q: Did you have occasion on that day to see John Roselli?
A: Yes, I did. I saw John Roselli. John Roselli was on board the flight
coming out of Houston. We had taken a flight out of Tampa, Florida and went
through New Orleans, New Orleans to Houston and Roselli had boarded the
flight at Tampa, Florida, and he was staying at the Congress Inn the night
before he boarded the flight. Our team flew out of West Palm Beach, a place
called Lantana, and to Tampa and then Roselli and a couple of other people
got on board in Tampa. We flew to New Orleans where two people got off,
three other people got on, Roselli stayed on board. We flew to Houston and
then the next morning, we had some weather, and we left for Dallas, and we
had to...we were heading for Thunderbird, I mean for Redbird Airport, and we
had to make a stop a Dallas/Garland because of weather. We did not have an
IFR flight plan filed at that point. We did not want to file a flight plan.
The impression I was under at that time is we were flying a team into Dallas
to abort the assassination and John Roselli was on board that flight as well
as a couple of other Cubans and people that were connected with organized
crime in New Orleans.
Q: On the morning of November 22, 1963, did the flight that arrived in
Garland, Texas, just outside of Dallas, have anything to do with the CIA?
A: The CIA wasyes it did, the CIA was our support people. We were
military intelligence. The CIA was running support and coordinating certain
flights, making different arrangements, or necessary arrangements, for us.
Q: Who got off of the airplane at Redbird?
A: Everybody else got off at Redbird. John Roselli got off at Redbird and
everybody went their own way. Where they went, I have no idea, at that point
and time 

Re: [CTRL] 010,000 BIGOT

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

hahahahahahahaha your stupid hahahahahahahahaha

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
I hope this does not mean that they have reached some critical mass
 criteria so that it is now deemed a worthy trolling area for bigots.
=

After the 1960's the liberals began to concoct a whole gob of spin
words. Bashing, bigot, phobia, hate speech, bashing ...

These spin words are meant to pervert the original meaning of
they are words to be used as dirty words.

One group talks about Jews and the liberals call them bigots.
Another group talks about Germans, and no one calls them bigots?

Bigot:
Emotion, religion and morality:
zealot (noun)
zealot, religionist, enthusiast, fanatic, bigot, image-breaker,
iconoclast
formalist, precisian, Puritan
goody-goody
fundamentalist, inerrantist, Bible-worshiper, bibliolater, Sabbatarian
Bible-thumper, sermonizer, pulpiteer, PREACHER
evangelical, salvationist, hot-gospeler
missionary, PHILANTHROPIST
revivalist, speaker in tongues, faith healer
champion of the faith, crusader, militant Christian
militant Islamite, ghazi
=
When using the word bigot, the mush mouths do not take
from the actual meaning. To those, a bigot is one who speaks out
against others they disapprove of.

Ah, I am one of those bigots. Everyone who speaks out against
those they disapprove, is a bigot.
The only difference is I am a bigot and admit it, while they are
bigots who lie about it.

Bigots:
Dirty Japs
Filthy child molester
corrupt politicians
Every word any one utters about their disapproval of others brands
them as a bigot.

When one begins by calling others a bigot they establish themselves
to be bigot s... Saying bad stuff about someone just because they
are a bigot? You are a bigot.

In the course of mind control, spin words are essential to confuse
ignorant people... Not stupid people, just people who don't bother
to evaluate or look up the actual meanings of words.

Every time you utter your words of disapproval against anyone
you believe to be dishonest or filthy, you compound the fact that you
are a bigot?

To the ignorant who try to shut others up or shame them by calling
them bigot ... sorry lying bigots such mush mouth tactics will not
work on those who have a dictionary.

As you scan newsletters to read issues, the first thing you must
do is separate the evidence/proofs from the smoke screens.

Smoke screens are tactics used to turn the topic from the issue at
hand to an attack on those who bring the damning proofs to the
jury.

When you read internet post on any issue, look to see who is
bring proofs on the topic at hand and who needs to become
attack dogs on those with the undeniable proofs.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Teo: Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 1:54:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Being in general agreement with this statement, I am interested in your
 conjecture--apart from cronyism--concerning why there was very little
 effort to pursue these issues. It would seem that Starr's efforts would
 have yielded a far better result if these had been the primary focus. And
 yes, I am aware of the debate over there having been, comparatively, less
 evidence regarding "all of the above."

 Edward

It seems to me that it would all come down to political control programs in
general.  I believe that there is NO difference between the parties and that
they all occupy positions of power for a purpose.  They may be duly elected
but they are eventually turned to the control of the elites, or "controllers"
if you prefer.  They do what they are told to do, democrat or republican,
makes no difference.
Starr was hired to dig into weighty matters that could lead to many nasty
surmises (Whitewater and etc. . .).  Most of this stuff goes back to when
Clinton was Governor of Ark., and the Mena airport business, but would even go
back further since it is my contention that he was recruited for the CIA and
was handpicked by the people of the Skull and Bones society (under the
leadership of George Bush, intel asset for many years) to run for and win the
Presidency.  Whikle he was Governor "making a name for himself" he allowed the
use of Mena for drug smuggling and made a lot of money for himself.  It seems
to me that Whitewater would have been an ideal vehicle to handle all of the
excess money.
Bush and Clinton are in cahoots together.  Starr has connections to right wing
political supporters, who are friends with Bush. Now it seems to me that Starr
was confronted with a no win situation since any fair examination of the REAL
and substantive issues here would always lead back to Bush or other powerful
people that he was "in" with, he had no choice but to go after "personal"
crimes that could not lead off into tangents that might implicate other
people.  Thus we have the case we have today.
I've expounded before on my theories regarding Clinton.  In brief I think he
was chosen as Bush's successor to carry the flag for a European Union led NWO.
He talked a good game but when he got in office he started to woo the Chinese,
which is what got Nixon into trouble (Bush was behind the scenes then too), in
an effort to undermine the NWO ad possibly form an alliance to counter the EU
led NWO.  Bush is betrayed, as are all the "movers and shakers" therefore they
are determined to get him out of office.  Many scandals are raised and people
killed (though some of the deaths are probably more directly the fault of
Clinton than others trying to scare him) but they have little success.  They
try the Whitewater thing which looks promising but ultimately would point an
accusing finger at other more important people so must be dropped, then a
little luck comes there way (though it is not really luck since they probably
KNEW of his sexual proclivities and were waiting for the opportunity to
arrive) with the Paula Jones case and the Lewinsky business which he was
forced into lieing  (something he is good at anyway and which is a major part
of his inherent nature), which then serves as the perfect vehicle to "getting
him" while conveniently ignoring all of the other troubling things that could
be a problem for other important people (China money, secret trade deals,
transfer of tech., etc. . .).  A point in favor of this is the recent "leak"
from the WHITE HOUSE that the CIA was to blame for tech. transfer to China,
precipitating any look at the WH and Clinton, just when such questions were
actually beinjg asked for the first time in the mainstream.  Guess what, they
aren't really talked about much now are they?
Sorry for the length.
Teo1000

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 9:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
  investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to
 anyone
  any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the
death
 of
  Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-
 and-guns
  operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no
 honorable
  man, no way.

  Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a
t
 a
  loss for the title. Anyone have that?

  kt


I believe that I mentioned that the Reagan Administration was peopled with
white collar criminals Wall Street, CIA... they swooped in from
everywhere.  I wouldn't take issue with any of the items you mentioned.
However, you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
more than I have proof that he did not.

Jim

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

  you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
 more than I have proof that he did not.

Ignoring that Reagan stated openly that "mistakes were made" in iran-contra, are
you saying he had no personal knowledge of the appointees to his own
administration?

kt

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/13/98 9:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Reagan!?!  I mentioned before about how Reagan derailed half of Garrison's
 investigation, but good lord, do the words "iran-contra" mean anything to
anyone
 any more? What about "October Surprise"? The rip-off of PROMIS and the death
of
 Danny Casolaro? Even things like Clinton's entanglement in the Mena drugs-
and-guns
 operation trace back to Reagan/Bush/Ollie North. Sorry, Reagan ain't no
honorable
 man, no way.

 Btw, Dan Moldea has another, more recent book about RFK I think, but I'm a t
a
 loss for the title. Anyone have that?

 kt 

Reagan was not honorable but the real culprit for all of the activity during
his admin. was George Bush, the Devil incarnate.  Reagan must take the
responsibility for what was happening on his watch though, and he allowed and
wanted much of it to come to pass anyway.
Moldea's book on RFK, I can't remember the name of it either, is according to
some reviews I read about it, another Sirhan did it himself book.  He does
track down the security guard and comes to the conclusion that he didn't do
it, because he says that he didn't!  Brilliant!  Why hasn't that worked for
all the other people in prison?  I haven't read the book though so these
comments may not be valid, check it out.
Teo1000

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Re: [CTRL] The Siege: PsyOps Movie Prepares U.S. for Martial Law

[A.C. Szul]

 -Caveat Lector-

Yet it didn't do so well.  As a matter of fact the movie wasn't seen by as many
folks as other movies that opened and ran during the same time.

Oh well.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 from:
 http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html
 A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.42/pageone.html"Laissez Faire City Times
 - Volume 2 Issue 42/A
 The Laissez Faire City Times
 December 14, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 42
 Editor  Chief: Emile Zola
 -
 The Siege: PsyOps Movie Prepares U.S. for Martial Law

 by Uri Dowbenko

 The Siege is a slick commercial for the American Police State.

 Starting with actual newsclips intermixed with movie footage, a radical
 fundamentalist Muslim cleric is taken hostage. President Clinton -- out
 of context -- says "I am outraged by it," a speech he made after the
 Oklahoma City Bombing. Then he says, "Those who did it must not be
 allowed to go unpunished." That was the stump speech for his so-called
 Anti-Terrorism Bill, which didn't have a chance of passing before the
 Bombing. The mix of "real" newsclips intercut with movie footage -- a
 muezzin's calls to prayer and subsequent scenes of slaughter in the
 desert -- makes an unsubtle direct correlation between Muslims and
 terrorism.

 Cut to Manhattan. FBI man Anthony Hubbard (Denzel Washington) has to
 deal with a hostage crisis and a bus bomb which turns out to be a ruse.
 His partner is Lebanese, an Arab-American named Frank Haddad (Tony
 Shalhoub) who is gung-ho and acts as a translator -- until they grab his
 kid and put him in the New York Concentration Camp. Understandably that
 sours him on the FBI.

 Soon enough there's interagency rivalry with CIA woman Elise Kraft
 (Annette Bening). She tells the FBI man that "we're on the same team,"
 but they both know it's a lie. He tells her "CIA has no charter to
 operate domestically." Yuck yuck -- as if that ever kept the CIA from
 engaging in criminal activities on US soil.

 The subtext of the movie, grounded in real-life history, is that CIA
 financed and trained indigenous "rebel" movements around the world, then
 unceremoniously betrayed them when US policy changed. The betrayed CIA
 "terrorists" then typically returned to US soil becoming pawns in
 elaborate spy agency games, which most recently resulted in the New York
 World Trade Center Bombing and the Oklahoma City Bombing.

 Later, in a flash of realization about her own culpability, the CIA
 woman says to Samir (Sami Bouajila), one of the suspected "terrorists":
 "Don't tell me we financed your operation?" He smiles disbelievingly at
 her naivete.

 Disinformation rules in The Siege. Here are the most obvious propaganda
 factoids.

 1. Demonizing the Militia. Continuing the mainstream-media propaganda,
 Denzel Washington asks his fellow feds in the FBI office, "You think
 it's militia?" "Not their style," they answer, as if most militas were
 capable of "terrorism" without the active participation by undercover
 CIA, FBI, or BATF agent provocateurs.

 2. Demonizing the Internet. "Everybody on the Internet knows
 explosives," says Washington, spreading the lie about how the Internet
 is a tool of subversion and therefore must be controlled. Department of
 Justice has lobbied long and hard for anti-internet, anti-cryptography
 legislation.

 3. Demonizing Cash. "Where does a guy like you come up with ten thousand
 dollars?" the FBI man berates the Arab suspect, implying that cash
 anywhere is immediately suspect. According to US State Propaganda, only
 "terrorists" or "money launderers" use cash. This reinforces the
 suspicion in moviegoers' minds that only "criminals" would have any
 concerns about privacy.

 General Devereaux (Bruce Willis) takes over when a state of emergency
 and martial law is declared in Manhattan. There's a couple of throwaway
 lines -- complete with requisite handwringing -- about Posse Comitatus
 -- the law which mandates that US troops can not be used against US
 citizens -- and how President Lincoln suspended habeus corpus, an
 unchallenged precedent for martial law.

 Willis says "We can't go in until the president invokes the War Powers
 Act."

 Does that mean the country is still operating under war and emergency
 powers? Dr. Eugene Schroeder's controversial book Constitution: Fact or
 Fiction (Buffalo Creek Press, PO BOx 2424, Cleburne, Texas 76033)
 explains this provocative thesis. He says that the reason why the US has
 gone downhill, becoming in essence an unconstitutional dictatorship, is
 because "since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of
 declared National Emergency," according to Senate Report 93-549.

 The Siege is really a turf war -- not between gangs -- but between Feds.
 It's FBI vs. CIA vs. National Security Council vs. America. The civil
 rights context -- Is martial law justified? Under what circumstances? --
 is merely window dressing for the real question -- How will the Feds
 split up the country?

 The movie shows 

Re: [CTRL] Heads Up: Bill Clinton Is Finished

[A.C. Szul]

 -Caveat Lector-

RR knew who he appointed. To think otherwise would be eqaully silly and foolish.

Switching the topic to whether RR knew his appointees is senseless. At issue is that
RR owed up to what happened and BC refuses to do so.

Kenn Thomas wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

   you have no proof that Reagan himself had personal knowledge, any
  more than I have proof that he did not.

 Ignoring that Reagan stated openly that "mistakes were made" in iran-contra, are
 you saying he had no personal knowledge of the appointees to his own
 administration?

 kt

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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 Om

--
-snip


Regards,
-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] Millennial Prophecies

[A.C. Szul]

 -Caveat Lector-

Here's just a few:

 Many seemingly nice people will cynically
 use honesty, cheerfulness, and openness to
 manipulate others into doing things their
way.

  In apparent response to millennial
 madness, the average length of an act of
 heterosexual intercourse in America—which
is
 currently only four minutes—will jump to 18

 minutes by the end of 1999.

 A Constitutional Convention in 2001 will
 produce a New Bill of Rights. Among its
 amendments: All Americans must be
 rewarded financially in direct proportion
to how
 much beauty they create.

  There'll be a spin-off from the karaoke
 concept: nightclubs where groups of soap
 opera fans can re enact their favorite
episodes.

  To demonstrate their lasting commitment
 to serving the needs of the American
 consumer, some corporations will buy
 mountains and carve their trademarks and
 logos into the rock—much like Mt. Rushmore

 The rise of the "pantheosexual" movement
 will present a new threat to sexual law 'n'

 order. Describing heterosexuals, gays, and
 bisexuals as narrow-minded, pantheosexuals
 will claim to have erotic feelings for
everything
 from trees to toasters to clouds to all
seven
 genders of human beings.

 The government will begin paying subsidies
 to some lawyers so they won't practice
 law—much as it now pays supermarket
 chains to keep cheese off the market when
 there is too much and the excess would
bring
 prices down.

 Claiming it objectifies men, the men's
 movement will decry the romance novel as
 women's version of pornography.

 The bestselling self-help book of 1999 will
 be The Zen of Temper Tantrums.


--snip
See http://www.villagevoice.com/features/9850/brezsny.shtml

Regards,
-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om